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請宣讀"},{"start":1710.97,"end":1713.53,"text":"第69條條文修正草案案"},{"start":1713.53,"end":1715.6100000000001,"text":"審查委員李柏毅等20人"},{"start":1715.6100000000001,"end":1718.89,"text":"擬具臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例"},{"start":1718.89,"end":1722.01,"text":"第18條之一條文修正草案案"},{"start":1722.01,"end":1724.09,"text":"審查委員李柏毅等16人"},{"start":1724.09,"end":1727.45,"text":"擬具臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例"},{"start":1727.45,"end":1729.21,"text":"部分條文修正草案案"},{"start":1729.87,"end":1732.43,"text":"審查香港澳門關係條例"},{"start":1732.43,"end":1735.6299999999999,"text":"繼續審查委員張鴻祿等20人擬具"},{"start":1735.6299999999999,"end":1739.3899999999999,"text":"香港澳門關係條例第14條第14條之一"},{"start":1739.3899999999999,"end":1742.67,"text":"及第47條之一條文修正草案案"},{"start":1742.67,"end":1744.51,"text":"審查委員李柏毅等16人"},{"start":1744.51,"end":1746.51,"text":"擬具香港澳門關係條例"},{"start":1746.51,"end":1748.51,"text":"部分條文修正草案案"},{"start":1748.51,"end":1749.6299999999999,"text":"宣讀完畢"},{"start":1753.81,"end":1756.93,"text":"首先介紹在場委員及列席官員"},{"start":1756.93,"end":1758.21,"text":"張志綸委員"},{"start":1759.84,"end":1760.9599999999998,"text":"王美惠委員"},{"start":1763.08,"end":1765.1599999999999,"text":"陸委會邱垂政主委"},{"start":1767.13,"end":1769.69,"text":"內政部移民署署長林弘恩"},{"start":1772.77,"end":1775.33,"text":"司法院法官"},{"start":1776.16,"end":1777.2,"text":"吳元耀法官"},{"start":1778.08,"end":1780.1599999999999,"text":"法務部參事謝志明"},{"start":1783.26,"end":1786.3799999999999,"text":"國安局第三處副處長陳副處長"},{"start":1790.2,"end":1791.4,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":1791.65,"end":1798.45,"text":"本日議程所列討論事項及兩個法案合併巡達"},{"start":1799.23,"end":1802.03,"text":"請提案委員說明提案要旨"},{"start":1812.02,"end":1813.22,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":1820.71,"end":1821.51,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":1823.43,"end":1826.63,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1826.63,"end":1827.67,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1827.67,"end":1828.47,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1828.47,"end":1828.55,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1828.55,"end":1828.63,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1828.63,"end":1828.71,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1828.71,"end":1828.79,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1828.79,"end":1828.8700000000001,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1828.8700000000001,"end":1828.95,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1828.95,"end":1829.03,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1829.03,"end":1829.1100000000001,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1829.1100000000001,"end":1829.19,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1829.19,"end":1829.27,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1829.27,"end":1829.3500000000001,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1829.3500000000001,"end":1829.43,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1829.43,"end":1829.51,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1829.51,"end":1829.5900000000001,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1829.5900000000001,"end":1829.75,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1829.75,"end":1829.8300000000002,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1829.8300000000002,"end":1829.91,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1829.91,"end":1829.99,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1829.99,"end":1830.0700000000002,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1830.0700000000002,"end":1830.15,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1830.15,"end":1830.23,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1830.23,"end":1830.79,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1830.79,"end":1831.1100000000001,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1831.1100000000001,"end":1831.43,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1831.43,"end":1831.51,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1831.51,"end":1831.59,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1831.59,"end":1831.67,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1831.67,"end":1831.75,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1831.75,"end":1831.83,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1831.83,"end":1831.91,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1831.91,"end":1831.99,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1831.99,"end":1832.07,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1832.07,"end":1832.15,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1832.15,"end":1832.23,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1832.23,"end":1832.31,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1832.31,"end":1832.39,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1832.39,"end":1832.47,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1832.47,"end":1832.55,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1832.55,"end":1832.63,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1832.63,"end":1832.71,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1832.71,"end":1832.79,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1832.79,"end":1832.8700000000001,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1832.8700000000001,"end":1832.95,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1832.95,"end":1833.03,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1833.03,"end":1833.1100000000001,"text":"請提案委員說明"},{"start":1835.44,"end":1835.68,"text":"好"},{"start":1837.45,"end":1846.81,"text":"我來說明一下今天我提出的這個兩岸人民關係條例以及港岸條例的提案說明"},{"start":1846.81,"end":1853.21,"text":"現行的兩岸條例針對收容天數有150天的上限限制"},{"start":1853.21,"end":1855.93,"text":"就是暫雨收容15天"},{"start":1855.93,"end":1857.53,"text":"續雨收容45天"},{"start":1857.53,"end":1859.69,"text":"加上延長收容40天"},{"start":1859.69,"end":1864.41,"text":"那延長收容期滿可以申請延長收容50天"},{"start":1864.41,"end":1867.13,"text":"這樣加一加總共150天"},{"start":1867.13,"end":1871.2900000000002,"text":"那針對應該強制遣返而未遣返"},{"start":1871.2900000000002,"end":1877.8500000000001,"text":"一旦超過只能採收容替代處分"},{"start":1877.8500000000001,"end":1879.7700000000002,"text":"但是這一段時間內"},{"start":1879.7700000000002,"end":1884.0900000000001,"text":"他們理應該在規定的場所內等待被遣返"},{"start":1884.0900000000001,"end":1887.2900000000002,"text":"卻發生的到處趴趴走的事情"},{"start":1887.2900000000002,"end":1892.73,"text":"所以甚至還在這段時間接受各種媒體的採訪"},{"start":1892.73,"end":1895.45,"text":"就是極其混亂"},{"start":1895.45,"end":1900.17,"text":"所以我們跟陸委會討論了這些內容之後"},{"start":1900.17,"end":1903.6100000000001,"text":"提出了這個修法版本裡面的內容包括"},{"start":1903.6100000000001,"end":1904.73,"text":"第一個"},{"start":1904.73,"end":1910.41,"text":"增訂違反收容替代處分的規定者得重新收容"},{"start":1910.41,"end":1915.45,"text":"收容期間重新計算不受150天的收容限制"},{"start":1915.45,"end":1916.3300000000002,"text":"第二個"},{"start":1916.3300000000002,"end":1921.05,"text":"申請再延長收容的事由增訂天然災害"},{"start":1921.05,"end":1923.77,"text":"疫情等不可抗力因素"},{"start":1923.77,"end":1932.41,"text":"以及大陸地區遲不接受反收收容人"},{"start":1932.41,"end":1933.37,"text":"第三"},{"start":1933.37,"end":1938.49,"text":"增訂入境面談及強制出境審查會時"},{"start":1938.49,"end":1941.69,"text":"得委任律師陪同出席"},{"start":1941.69,"end":1942.49,"text":"也就是"},{"start":1943.8899999999999,"end":1945.8899999999999,"text":"也是增加相關的人權的部分"},{"start":1945.8899999999999,"end":1946.37,"text":"第四"},{"start":1947.54,"end":1950.02,"text":"提高預期居留的罰款"},{"start":1950.02,"end":1953.14,"text":"增訂協助隱匿的罰則"},{"start":1953.82,"end":1959.5,"text":"所以本次修法的目的是要補足現行兩岸人民及港澳關係"},{"start":1959.5,"end":1961.02,"text":"港澳條例的不足"},{"start":1961.02,"end":1964.06,"text":"使相關規定可以比照移民法"},{"start":1964.06,"end":1968.3,"text":"保障中國籍人士來台的權益的同時"},{"start":1968.3,"end":1971.34,"text":"那我們也希望可以避免違法"},{"start":1971.34,"end":1973.74,"text":"而因被遣返"},{"start":1973.74,"end":1977.1,"text":"但是利用這個收容的替代處分"},{"start":1977.1,"end":1978.9399999999998,"text":"持續破壞我國的法制"},{"start":1978.9399999999998,"end":1981.5,"text":"希望在這一次的修法"},{"start":1981.58,"end":1985.98,"text":"可以得到委員會以及行政部門的支持"},{"start":1985.98,"end":1987.98,"text":"最後舉一個例"},{"start":1987.98,"end":1991.42,"text":"曾經偷渡進來"},{"start":1991.42,"end":1994.62,"text":"台灣的中國的退役"},{"start":1994.62,"end":1997.02,"text":"軍方的退役的人士"},{"start":1997.02,"end":2002.78,"text":"他就是這個收容替代的國安漏洞"},{"start":2002.78,"end":2004.62,"text":"所以我們希望"},{"start":2004.62,"end":2007.34,"text":"比照相關的這些法制"},{"start":2007.34,"end":2009.1,"text":"比照相關的這些移民法"},{"start":2009.26,"end":2011.5,"text":"那可以補足國安的這個漏洞"},{"start":2011.5,"end":2012.54,"text":"謝謝以上說明"},{"start":2013.57,"end":2017.1699999999998,"text":"謝謝我們感謝蔡委員提供的說明"},{"start":2029.23,"end":2032.03,"text":"我們請陸委會邱垂政主委報告"},{"start":2042.23,"end":2044.79,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生"},{"start":2044.79,"end":2045.67,"text":"大家早安"},{"start":2046.92,"end":2050.2,"text":"今天貴文會召開審查"},{"start":2050.2,"end":2053.64,"text":"李柏毅等委員所提出來的"},{"start":2053.64,"end":2055.64,"text":"兩岸關係條例"},{"start":2055.64,"end":2057.24,"text":"部分條文修正草案"},{"start":2057.24,"end":2059.64,"text":"及港澳關係條例"},{"start":2059.64,"end":2061.64,"text":"部分條文修正草案"},{"start":2061.64,"end":2063.88,"text":"本人僅代表陸委會"},{"start":2063.88,"end":2066.7599999999998,"text":"列席說明如下"},{"start":2067.3,"end":2072.7400000000002,"text":"第一,為了與境外人士的人流管理的程序"},{"start":2073.54,"end":2076.82,"text":"法則及相關的措施相銜接"},{"start":2076.82,"end":2081.78,"text":"我們提具兩岸條例及港澳條例"},{"start":2081.78,"end":2084.26,"text":"部分條文修正草案"},{"start":2084.26,"end":2088.5,"text":"其中包括剛剛李委員、李召委所說的"},{"start":2088.5,"end":2091.2200000000003,"text":"強制出境跟收容的部分"},{"start":2091.2200000000003,"end":2094.5,"text":"首先我跟大家報告背景說明"},{"start":2094.5,"end":2098.7400000000002,"text":"這個112年6月28號"},{"start":2098.7400000000002,"end":2100.7400000000002,"text":"我們入出國移民法"},{"start":2100.8199999999997,"end":2103.22,"text":"已經有相關的包括"},{"start":2103.22,"end":2106.5,"text":"福爾人身自由的制度性保障"},{"start":2106.5,"end":2110.9799999999996,"text":"以及考量入出國移民相關的規定"},{"start":2110.9799999999996,"end":2112.9799999999996,"text":"已經修正公佈"},{"start":2112.9799999999996,"end":2115.7799999999997,"text":"為了與境外人士的人流管理程序"},{"start":2115.7799999999997,"end":2118.5,"text":"法則相關的措施相銜接"},{"start":2118.5,"end":2121.9399999999996,"text":"其實陸委會也已經提出了"},{"start":2121.9399999999996,"end":2126.66,"text":"兩岸條例跟港澳關係條例修正草案"},{"start":2126.66,"end":2129.9399999999996,"text":"目前行政院已審查完盡"},{"start":2129.94,"end":2134.18,"text":"但是內政部評估可能還有在修正"},{"start":2134.18,"end":2137.06,"text":"這個移民法相關的條文"},{"start":2137.06,"end":2140.34,"text":"經整個行政院整體部門考量"},{"start":2140.34,"end":2142.66,"text":"為了節省立法成本"},{"start":2142.66,"end":2146.5,"text":"那麼避免兩岸條例短時間反覆修法"},{"start":2146.5,"end":2150.34,"text":"所以我們等移民法修正草案確定後"},{"start":2150.34,"end":2153.06,"text":"並同這兩次的這個修法"},{"start":2153.06,"end":2156.34,"text":"一次來完成這個修法"},{"start":2156.5,"end":2159.94,"text":"所以暫時沒有提出行政院版的部分"},{"start":2159.94,"end":2162.5,"text":"請大家能夠諒解"},{"start":2162.5,"end":2164.02,"text":"第二個有關於"},{"start":2165.17,"end":2170.3700000000003,"text":"李柏毅林楚英委員所提的兩岸條例修正草案"},{"start":2170.3700000000003,"end":2174.9300000000003,"text":"以及張宏祿委員所提的港澳條例修正草案"},{"start":2174.9300000000003,"end":2178.61,"text":"都是在保障當事人程序參與權"},{"start":2178.61,"end":2182.69,"text":"以及強化收容替代處分的安全管理"},{"start":2183.4,"end":2185.88,"text":"本會競表贊同"},{"start":2185.88,"end":2189,"text":"各位委員所提的修正草案版本"},{"start":2189,"end":2193.88,"text":"徵訂中國大陸人民經許可入境後進行面談"},{"start":2193.88,"end":2196.36,"text":"得委任律師在場"},{"start":2196.36,"end":2200.6800000000003,"text":"徵訂受強制出境處分的中國大陸人民"},{"start":2200.6800000000003,"end":2205.0800000000004,"text":"香港澳門居民得委任律師及同意"},{"start":2205.0800000000004,"end":2206.92,"text":"陳述意見程序"},{"start":2206.92,"end":2210.2000000000003,"text":"或是在審查會進行在場"},{"start":2210.2000000000003,"end":2211.88,"text":"那麼我們是贊成的"},{"start":2211.96,"end":2215.88,"text":"以及以天然災害疫情等不可抗命因素"},{"start":2215.88,"end":2218.6800000000003,"text":"作為向法院申請中國大陸人民"},{"start":2218.6800000000003,"end":2223.32,"text":"香港澳門居民延長收容事由及強化對"},{"start":2223.32,"end":2226.6800000000003,"text":"替代收人處分的安全管理等"},{"start":2226.6800000000003,"end":2232.76,"text":"細參照現行移民法第65條第36條第38條之4"},{"start":2232.76,"end":2235.6400000000003,"text":"以及第38條之8等相關規定"},{"start":2235.6400000000003,"end":2238.12,"text":"如果修法通過的話"},{"start":2238.12,"end":2241.2400000000002,"text":"實務上執行對外人事"},{"start":2241.3199999999997,"end":2244.6,"text":"還有鹿港澳人事軍採一致的做法"},{"start":2244.6,"end":2246.6,"text":"本會也競表同意"},{"start":2246.6,"end":2249.64,"text":"至於將中國大陸相關機關"},{"start":2249.64,"end":2253.3999999999996,"text":"遲不接訪替代收容人事"},{"start":2253.3999999999996,"end":2258.12,"text":"作為再延長收容事由一結"},{"start":2258.12,"end":2262.68,"text":"考量近年來陸方有遲不接訪"},{"start":2262.68,"end":2265.3999999999996,"text":"置入入籍人事之情勢"},{"start":2265.3999999999996,"end":2270.68,"text":"且制裁人員不乏是刑事犯"},{"start":2272.62,"end":2275.3399999999997,"text":"內政部移民署依現行規定"},{"start":2275.3399999999997,"end":2277.8199999999997,"text":"其收容期限屆滿前"},{"start":2277.8199999999997,"end":2280.22,"text":"作出收容替代處分"},{"start":2280.22,"end":2285.18,"text":"但是將這類人交付於國內的慈善團體"},{"start":2285.18,"end":2289.2599999999998,"text":"他們需要定期向移民署報到"},{"start":2289.2599999999998,"end":2291.8199999999997,"text":"但是人身安全拘束的程度"},{"start":2291.8199999999997,"end":2294.7799999999997,"text":"不會像收容這個效果"},{"start":2294.7799999999997,"end":2299.3399999999997,"text":"恐怕會引起社會治安造成隱憂"},{"start":2299.42,"end":2303.82,"text":"為避免引發外界的疑慮"},{"start":2303.82,"end":2308.78,"text":"本會支持委員所提的修法方向"},{"start":2311.04,"end":2313.2799999999997,"text":"我們考量境外外國人"},{"start":2313.2799999999997,"end":2318.08,"text":"強制驅逐出國或收容的"},{"start":2318.72,"end":2322.08,"text":"移民法相關條文已經修法公佈"},{"start":2322.08,"end":2324,"text":"為確保國家安全"},{"start":2324,"end":2326.72,"text":"以及使中國大陸人民港澳居民"},{"start":2326.72,"end":2329.2,"text":"強制出境及收容的程序"},{"start":2329.2,"end":2332.72,"text":"都能夠有相同的正當法律程序"},{"start":2332.72,"end":2334.48,"text":"及人身自由的保障"},{"start":2334.48,"end":2336.72,"text":"我們敬表支持"},{"start":2336.72,"end":2339.52,"text":"也謝謝各位委員所提的兩岸條例"},{"start":2339.52,"end":2343.68,"text":"跟港澳關係條例相關的修法草案"},{"start":2343.68,"end":2347.8399999999997,"text":"本人再次感謝大家的努力"},{"start":2347.92,"end":2349.52,"text":"詳細條文的部分"},{"start":2349.52,"end":2352.4,"text":"等我們進入到逐條討論的時候"},{"start":2352.4,"end":2354.7200000000003,"text":"再跟委員進一步交換意見"},{"start":2354.7200000000003,"end":2356.88,"text":"謝謝各位委員"},{"start":2362.18,"end":2363.54,"text":"好 其他單位報告"},{"start":2363.54,"end":2365.8599999999997,"text":"請委員自行參閱並刊登公報"},{"start":2367.36,"end":2368.88,"text":"現在進行詢答"},{"start":2368.88,"end":2372.48,"text":"委員質詢前原例作幾點宣告"},{"start":2372.48,"end":2374.4,"text":"為委員質詢時間"},{"start":2374.4,"end":2377.2000000000003,"text":"本會委員5分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘"},{"start":2377.2000000000003,"end":2379.2000000000003,"text":"非本會委員5分鐘"},{"start":2379.2000000000003,"end":2382.8,"text":"上午10點30分截止質詢登記"},{"start":2382.8,"end":2384.8,"text":"今天處理法案本會就"},{"start":2384.8,"end":2387.44,"text":"本次會議就不處理臨時提案"},{"start":2387.44,"end":2388.88,"text":"請問各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":2390.34,"end":2391.06,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":2392.18,"end":2393.86,"text":"那接下來我們進行詢答"},{"start":2393.86,"end":2396.98,"text":"請登記第一位的張志倫委員質詢"},{"start":2405.0499999999997,"end":2406.49,"text":"好 謝謝主席"},{"start":2406.49,"end":2407.85,"text":"各位委員各位觀言早"},{"start":2407.85,"end":2409.1299999999997,"text":"有請邱垂政主委"},{"start":2414.69,"end":2419.33,"text":"主委早 今天是陸委會的詢答"},{"start":2419.33,"end":2422.61,"text":"首先要跟主委討論"},{"start":2422.61,"end":2426.61,"text":"就是先前有關於台東縣長姚慶林縣長"},{"start":2427.25,"end":2429.25,"text":"因為為了農民的生計"},{"start":2429.25,"end":2433.01,"text":"預錄影片在海峽論壇推廣農產品"},{"start":2433.01,"end":2435.81,"text":"那我還記得當時陸委會高調宣稱"},{"start":2435.81,"end":2437.81,"text":"他違反兩岸關係條例"},{"start":2437.81,"end":2439.25,"text":"第三三條之一"},{"start":2439.25,"end":2441.25,"text":"與中國黨政軍合作"},{"start":2441.25,"end":2443.73,"text":"那必須啟動行政調查"},{"start":2443.73,"end":2446.77,"text":"那後來近日你們有坦言"},{"start":2446.77,"end":2449.49,"text":"是不是說這個基本上"},{"start":2449.49,"end":2451.25,"text":"姚縣長的發言沒有"},{"start":2451.25,"end":2453.57,"text":"牽涉到兩岸重大政治議題"},{"start":2453.65,"end":2457.25,"text":"所以你們現在的處理狀況是如何"},{"start":2457.25,"end":2459.25,"text":"是不是可以說明一下"},{"start":2460.24,"end":2464.16,"text":"公務員報告有關於姚慶林縣長"},{"start":2464.16,"end":2470.7999999999997,"text":"以錄影的方式在海峽論壇宣稱說法"},{"start":2470.7999999999997,"end":2474,"text":"那這部分我們有請內政部"},{"start":2474,"end":2477.2,"text":"進行必要的行政的了解"},{"start":2477.2,"end":2482.48,"text":"那目前他這個相關行政的一些報告"},{"start":2482.48,"end":2486.24,"text":"那麼還在彙整其他相關單位當中"},{"start":2486.24,"end":2489.2,"text":"我們還沒有做出最後的決定"},{"start":2489.2,"end":2492.64,"text":"那當時你們不是已經跟媒體坦承言說"},{"start":2492.64,"end":2496.48,"text":"沒有涉嫌牽涉到兩岸重大政治議題嗎"},{"start":2496.48,"end":2498.48,"text":"你們有沒有這樣的回應"},{"start":2499.08,"end":2503.8,"text":"這個部分我們應該還沒有做出決定"},{"start":2503.8,"end":2507.48,"text":"那我們會再有一個會商再確定"},{"start":2507.48,"end":2511.16,"text":"如果有經營部的說法我們會對外說明"},{"start":2511.16,"end":2513.4,"text":"還會有確定大概什麼時候會確定"},{"start":2513.4,"end":2515.64,"text":"我想應該很快"},{"start":2515.64,"end":2520.92,"text":"因為我們現在在彙整相關的資訊"},{"start":2520.92,"end":2523.08,"text":"然後我們再做最後的決定"},{"start":2523.08,"end":2525.72,"text":"那我是不是也可以方便請加入委會"},{"start":2525.7999999999997,"end":2528.7599999999998,"text":"今年針對民間交流案件"},{"start":2528.7599999999998,"end":2531.7999999999997,"text":"真正有裁罰的案件大概有幾件"},{"start":2533.09,"end":2534.3700000000003,"text":"裁罰的案件"},{"start":2535.34,"end":2539.42,"text":"我們要看一下資料再回覆給委員"},{"start":2539.42,"end":2541.42,"text":"還是事後我們再提供相關資訊"},{"start":2541.42,"end":2542.6200000000003,"text":"回覆給我們好了"},{"start":2542.6200000000003,"end":2546.1400000000003,"text":"因為這跟我等一下現在要問的問題有關"},{"start":2546.1400000000003,"end":2549.9,"text":"大家也看到最近監察院的監委有報告"},{"start":2549.9,"end":2552.1400000000003,"text":"就是有關於現在我們很多"},{"start":2552.1400000000003,"end":2557.42,"text":"兩岸青年的一些交流團的一個部分"},{"start":2557.42,"end":2561.6600000000003,"text":"那監察院有指出針對他的報告寫說"},{"start":2561.74,"end":2565.3399999999997,"text":"最近就是認為我們不管是教育部內政部"},{"start":2565.3399999999997,"end":2568.62,"text":"或入委會針對兩岸學生的這個交流"},{"start":2569.41,"end":2576.0499999999997,"text":"沒有一個明確的針對有些違反招攬規定的部分"},{"start":2576.0499999999997,"end":2577.5699999999997,"text":"沒有做一些處分"},{"start":2577.5699999999997,"end":2579.5699999999997,"text":"那我們看到最近這幾年"},{"start":2579.5699999999997,"end":2582.5299999999997,"text":"我們兩岸學生的交流非常的多"},{"start":2582.5299999999997,"end":2585.41,"text":"尤其台灣不管是大學高中"},{"start":2585.41,"end":2588.21,"text":"或者是國中國小的人數"},{"start":2588.21,"end":2590.37,"text":"到大陸交流人數越來越多"},{"start":2590.37,"end":2594.21,"text":"尤其是大學生大概一年大概是五千多人"},{"start":2594.21,"end":2596.29,"text":"那我想要請教一下"},{"start":2596.37,"end":2599.41,"text":"針對目前入委會有沒有掌握"},{"start":2599.41,"end":2602.21,"text":"到底有沒有多少的人數是"},{"start":2602.21,"end":2604.29,"text":"跟教育部來掌握"},{"start":2604.29,"end":2607.49,"text":"到底多少是未通報私下組團的數量到底是多少"},{"start":2607.49,"end":2608.61,"text":"有統計過了嗎"},{"start":2608.61,"end":2611.33,"text":"是跟委員報告"},{"start":2611.33,"end":2615.73,"text":"我們感謝我們監察委員幫我們做的這些調查報告"},{"start":2615.73,"end":2619.17,"text":"那這裡面講過去各部會有互相推諉"},{"start":2619.17,"end":2620.5299999999997,"text":"這可能是事實"},{"start":2620.5299999999997,"end":2622.85,"text":"但是這幾年"},{"start":2622.93,"end":2624.69,"text":"這幾年"},{"start":2624.69,"end":2628.37,"text":"我想我們跟各部會不再有這種情形"},{"start":2628.37,"end":2632.37,"text":"都是共同的分工合作"},{"start":2632.37,"end":2637.73,"text":"那麼積極的跟各個學校說明"},{"start":2637.73,"end":2640.45,"text":"這個中國大陸交流"},{"start":2640.45,"end":2643.49,"text":"要向教育部所建立的這個"},{"start":2643.49,"end":2649.41,"text":"有關兩岸教育交流活動登錄的這個平台來彙報"},{"start":2649.41,"end":2651.0899999999997,"text":"所以各部會之間"},{"start":2651.17,"end":2653.9700000000003,"text":"目前是合作無間分工合作"},{"start":2653.9700000000003,"end":2657.01,"text":"並沒有相互推諉的情形"},{"start":2657.01,"end":2662.3700000000003,"text":"我們比如說現在到底有多少的學生"},{"start":2662.3700000000003,"end":2665.4100000000003,"text":"或者是多少的學校沒有通報的數量你沒有掌握嗎"},{"start":2665.4100000000003,"end":2667.65,"text":"目前這幾年"},{"start":2667.65,"end":2669.65,"text":"跟委員報告這幾年"},{"start":2669.65,"end":2672.13,"text":"由於教育部主管機關"},{"start":2672.13,"end":2674.21,"text":"他比較常去做宣導"},{"start":2674.21,"end":2676.05,"text":"現在通報量比較多了"},{"start":2676.05,"end":2677.25,"text":"也比較正常"},{"start":2677.25,"end":2679.4900000000002,"text":"那其實我要跟委員報告"},{"start":2679.5699999999997,"end":2682.37,"text":"我們上網去"},{"start":2682.37,"end":2685.6499999999996,"text":"他其實會給我們要去的學生"},{"start":2685.6499999999996,"end":2687.1699999999996,"text":"老師學校"},{"start":2687.1699999999996,"end":2689.6499999999996,"text":"都有很清楚的一個檢核作業"},{"start":2689.6499999999996,"end":2692.29,"text":"對於風險的檢核作業"},{"start":2692.29,"end":2695.0899999999997,"text":"目前來講沒有通報的數量是少的"},{"start":2695.0899999999997,"end":2696.6099999999997,"text":"會減少很多"},{"start":2696.6099999999997,"end":2697.81,"text":"目前也在減少"},{"start":2697.81,"end":2699.33,"text":"那我想要了解"},{"start":2699.33,"end":2702.5299999999997,"text":"因為陸委會說要跟這樣的事情去做懲處"},{"start":2702.5299999999997,"end":2706.1299999999997,"text":"那我想說如果還是有沒有去通報的學校"},{"start":2706.1299999999997,"end":2707.7299999999996,"text":"因為主要是學校來去做通報"},{"start":2708.21,"end":2709.33,"text":"那如果學校沒有通報的話"},{"start":2709.33,"end":2711.09,"text":"懲處的對象到底是學校"},{"start":2711.09,"end":2712.29,"text":"還是帶隊老師"},{"start":2712.29,"end":2714.05,"text":"甚至是當然的民間團體"},{"start":2714.05,"end":2715.97,"text":"會不會是無辜的學生"},{"start":2715.97,"end":2718.53,"text":"我想這個是教育部主管機關"},{"start":2718.53,"end":2721.01,"text":"我們尊重教育部主管機關"},{"start":2721.01,"end":2725.4900000000002,"text":"那至於有違反兩岸條例的相關的情形"},{"start":2725.4900000000002,"end":2728.69,"text":"我們會協助教育部來做進一步的認證"},{"start":2728.69,"end":2730.29,"text":"我這邊要特別跟您拜託的是"},{"start":2730.29,"end":2732.21,"text":"因為今天教育部我應該沒有來"},{"start":2732.21,"end":2736.45,"text":"所以我想說學生他們只是單純去玩"},{"start":2736.6899999999996,"end":2738.29,"text":"所以我希望說學生的部分"},{"start":2738.29,"end":2740.6899999999996,"text":"不應該影響到他的受教權"},{"start":2740.6899999999996,"end":2741.97,"text":"不應該被罰"},{"start":2741.97,"end":2745.0899999999997,"text":"所以我要拜託主委這邊老"},{"start":2745.0899999999997,"end":2747.25,"text":"也可以幫忙跟教育部說明一下"},{"start":2747.25,"end":2749.89,"text":"那陸委會在這個情況當中"},{"start":2749.89,"end":2753.49,"text":"他有說要推動大陸的試讀教育"},{"start":2753.49,"end":2756.0499999999997,"text":"那大陸的試讀教育它的範圍多大"},{"start":2756.0499999999997,"end":2757.49,"text":"那要如何做教材"},{"start":2757.49,"end":2759.0099999999998,"text":"以及審定的標準為何"},{"start":2759.0099999999998,"end":2760.5299999999997,"text":"是不是可以請主委"},{"start":2760.5299999999997,"end":2761.0099999999998,"text":"是"},{"start":2761.0099999999998,"end":2761.97,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":2761.97,"end":2764.37,"text":"這也是我們陸委會在努力的地方"},{"start":2764.45,"end":2767.25,"text":"我們希望我們的學生老師"},{"start":2767.25,"end":2771.73,"text":"或是學校跟中國大陸進行的健康有序的交流"},{"start":2771.73,"end":2773.5699999999997,"text":"當然要再對準尊嚴"},{"start":2773.5699999999997,"end":2776.5299999999997,"text":"之外我們也希望我們附錄教育的學生"},{"start":2776.5299999999997,"end":2779.0099999999998,"text":"試讀教育的這個陸字是什麼"},{"start":2779.0099999999998,"end":2780.93,"text":"讓他了解中國大陸"},{"start":2780.93,"end":2783.73,"text":"就去之前要先讀完這筆試讀教育"},{"start":2783.73,"end":2786.13,"text":"然後才可以去大陸做交流"},{"start":2786.13,"end":2787.41,"text":"會比較適合"},{"start":2787.41,"end":2791.49,"text":"不要說大家看統戰行程"},{"start":2791.49,"end":2793.49,"text":"統戰的愛國基地"},{"start":2793.5699999999997,"end":2795.1699999999996,"text":"或是紅色的這些"},{"start":2795.1699999999996,"end":2797.33,"text":"是一個線上課程嗎"},{"start":2797.33,"end":2798.6099999999997,"text":"還是紙本的課程"},{"start":2798.6099999999997,"end":2802.0499999999997,"text":"我們有線上的"},{"start":2802.0499999999997,"end":2803.41,"text":"我們有紙本的"},{"start":2803.41,"end":2805.0099999999998,"text":"我們有實際教授的課程"},{"start":2805.0099999999998,"end":2807.0099999999998,"text":"一定要讀完以後才能去大陸交流嗎"},{"start":2807.0099999999998,"end":2809.25,"text":"他只要有上過這些課程就好"},{"start":2809.25,"end":2811.41,"text":"很多都是在他們學校"},{"start":2811.41,"end":2813.33,"text":"那我請問一下主委"},{"start":2813.33,"end":2816.2099999999996,"text":"這個試讀教育的教材什麼時候會出"},{"start":2816.2099999999996,"end":2820.1299999999997,"text":"我想教育部跟相關的這些老師"},{"start":2820.1299999999997,"end":2821.6499999999996,"text":"都有很多的教材"},{"start":2821.6499999999996,"end":2823.1699999999996,"text":"現在已經有了嗎"},{"start":2823.81,"end":2825.33,"text":"都陸陸續續有"},{"start":2825.33,"end":2827.33,"text":"都是專業的教材"},{"start":2827.33,"end":2829.81,"text":"我們都尊重這些老師"},{"start":2829.81,"end":2831.17,"text":"他們專業的課程"},{"start":2831.17,"end":2832.37,"text":"我們都尊重他們"},{"start":2832.37,"end":2833.17,"text":"好"},{"start":2833.17,"end":2834.61,"text":"那希望說陸委會"},{"start":2834.61,"end":2837.17,"text":"也針對整個試讀教材"},{"start":2837.17,"end":2838.37,"text":"要先去了解"},{"start":2838.37,"end":2839.73,"text":"然後執行的情況"},{"start":2839.73,"end":2840.69,"text":"也希望說陸委會"},{"start":2840.69,"end":2841.73,"text":"可以先去了解一下"},{"start":2841.73,"end":2842.21,"text":"是"},{"start":2843.22,"end":2844.2599999999998,"text":"最後一個問題"},{"start":2844.2599999999998,"end":2846.58,"text":"針對最近我相信陸委會"},{"start":2846.58,"end":2849.14,"text":"也跟很多的這個"},{"start":2849.14,"end":2850.3399999999997,"text":"大陸的台商"},{"start":2850.3399999999997,"end":2852.18,"text":"尤其是商業工會"},{"start":2852.18,"end":2853.22,"text":"有去做討論"},{"start":2853.22,"end":2855.06,"text":"針對兩岸旅遊"},{"start":2855.06,"end":2856.8999999999996,"text":"或是執行包機的問題"},{"start":2856.8999999999996,"end":2858.02,"text":"來去做討論"},{"start":2858.02,"end":2859.62,"text":"我想要問一下主委"},{"start":2859.62,"end":2861.54,"text":"目前我們現在台灣"},{"start":2861.54,"end":2863.4599999999996,"text":"跟大陸執行的班機"},{"start":2863.4599999999996,"end":2864.8199999999997,"text":"大概今年是"},{"start":2864.8199999999997,"end":2866.5,"text":"執行的數量是28個"},{"start":2866.5,"end":2869.06,"text":"28個執行的地點"},{"start":2869.06,"end":2869.62,"text":"對吧"},{"start":2870.75,"end":2875.9500000000003,"text":"目前的我們在跟中國大陸的航點"},{"start":2875.9500000000003,"end":2878.4300000000003,"text":"目前執行的航點是15個"},{"start":2878.4300000000003,"end":2879.3900000000003,"text":"只有15個"},{"start":2879.3900000000003,"end":2881.79,"text":"然後包機的航點有13個"},{"start":2881.79,"end":2883.9500000000003,"text":"所以加起來執行的15個"},{"start":2883.9500000000003,"end":2885.9500000000003,"text":"包機13個總共28個"},{"start":2885.9500000000003,"end":2888.75,"text":"那主委你知道過去"},{"start":2888.75,"end":2890.9100000000003,"text":"兩岸執行包機"},{"start":2890.9100000000003,"end":2892.59,"text":"最多的數量是多少個嗎"},{"start":2893.52,"end":2895.52,"text":"最多的數量是多少個嗎"},{"start":2895.52,"end":2896.32,"text":"航點是嗎"},{"start":2896.32,"end":2897.04,"text":"對航點"},{"start":2897.04,"end":2897.92,"text":"航行包機"},{"start":2897.92,"end":2900.56,"text":"曾經快到60個61個"},{"start":2900.56,"end":2902.08,"text":"對 主委非常清楚"},{"start":2902.08,"end":2903.28,"text":"沒有被我考倒"},{"start":2903.28,"end":2904.88,"text":"所以的確我要跟主委報告"},{"start":2904.88,"end":2907.6,"text":"過去兩岸平凡交流的時候"},{"start":2907.6,"end":2910,"text":"也可能人數跟現在差不多的時候"},{"start":2910,"end":2911.12,"text":"是61個"},{"start":2911.12,"end":2913.12,"text":"現在降低到28個"},{"start":2913.12,"end":2916.32,"text":"所以造成兩岸很多往來上"},{"start":2916.32,"end":2920.16,"text":"不管是台商 探親 旅遊方面的不便"},{"start":2920.16,"end":2921.12,"text":"所以我相信"},{"start":2921.12,"end":2922.72,"text":"所以還會有這個工會"},{"start":2922.72,"end":2924.3199999999997,"text":"來跟主委拜託"},{"start":2924.3199999999997,"end":2926.3199999999997,"text":"是不是要新開新增"},{"start":2926.3199999999997,"end":2928.3199999999997,"text":"執行跟包機點"},{"start":2928.3199999999997,"end":2930.3199999999997,"text":"那我想請教說"},{"start":2930.3199999999997,"end":2931.9199999999996,"text":"主委有沒有聽到人民的心聲"},{"start":2931.9199999999996,"end":2932.9599999999996,"text":"那你未來應該"},{"start":2932.9599999999996,"end":2935.52,"text":"有沒有考慮要怎麼去增加執行"},{"start":2935.52,"end":2936.7999999999997,"text":"跟包機的點"},{"start":2936.7999999999997,"end":2938.3199999999997,"text":"有沒有一個進程的規定"},{"start":2938.3199999999997,"end":2939.12,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":2939.12,"end":2940.72,"text":"我們也有請"},{"start":2940.72,"end":2943.8399999999997,"text":"我們民航局跟各航空業者"},{"start":2943.8399999999997,"end":2945.52,"text":"目前是航空業者"},{"start":2945.52,"end":2948,"text":"並沒有新的這些"},{"start":2948,"end":2950,"text":"運力提出來"},{"start":2950,"end":2952,"text":"那雖然我們有聽到"},{"start":2952,"end":2956,"text":"許多的台商有這個呼聲"},{"start":2956,"end":2958,"text":"但是我們也了解到"},{"start":2958,"end":2961.6,"text":"像我們不是規定了13個包機的航點"},{"start":2961.6,"end":2963.6,"text":"其實目前為止"},{"start":2963.6,"end":2966,"text":"民航局都沒有收到相關的申請"},{"start":2966,"end":2969.6,"text":"比如說我們現在的運力"},{"start":2969.6,"end":2971.6,"text":"那當然我們的業者"},{"start":2971.6,"end":2973.6,"text":"他提供的比較慢"},{"start":2973.6,"end":2975.6,"text":"由於他新的這些機組"},{"start":2975.6,"end":2977.6,"text":"都是非其他國際"},{"start":2977.6,"end":2979.6,"text":"那我們也是希望"},{"start":2979.6,"end":2981.6,"text":"真的有運力的話"},{"start":2981.6,"end":2983.6,"text":"我們可以先申請包機"},{"start":2983.6,"end":2985.6,"text":"那另外"},{"start":2985.6,"end":2987.6,"text":"包機你未來的方法"},{"start":2987.6,"end":2989.6,"text":"多久會包一次機"},{"start":2989.6,"end":2991.6,"text":"平凡"},{"start":2991.6,"end":2993.6,"text":"完全按照市場的需求"},{"start":2993.6,"end":2995.6,"text":"那大概什麼時候"},{"start":2995.6,"end":2997.6,"text":"我想主管機關"},{"start":2997.6,"end":2999.6,"text":"會來做進一步的評估"},{"start":2999.6,"end":3001.6,"text":"那現在都還沒有送來"},{"start":3001.6,"end":3003.6,"text":"如果有包機需求的"},{"start":3003.6,"end":3005.6,"text":"業者也可以"},{"start":3005.6,"end":3007.6,"text":"向我們民航主管機關提出來"},{"start":3007.6,"end":3009.6,"text":"另外"},{"start":3009.6,"end":3011.6,"text":"我們自己的直航業者"},{"start":3011.6,"end":3013.6,"text":"也一直申請上海"},{"start":3013.6,"end":3015.6,"text":"有大概十幾班"},{"start":3015.6,"end":3019.6,"text":"十三班的上海機場都沒有同意"},{"start":3019.6,"end":3021.6,"text":"這也造成我們輸運上變得很擠"},{"start":3021.6,"end":3023.6,"text":"我們也希望"},{"start":3023.6,"end":3025.6,"text":"對岸也要同意我們直航的申請"},{"start":3025.6,"end":3027.6,"text":"主委跟主委報告"},{"start":3027.6,"end":3029.6,"text":"就是因為"},{"start":3029.6,"end":3031.6,"text":"兩岸的直航的班機跟包機的班機"},{"start":3031.6,"end":3033.6,"text":"跟地點越來越少"},{"start":3033.6,"end":3035.6,"text":"導致現在很多"},{"start":3035.6,"end":3037.6,"text":"我們要通行的業者"},{"start":3037.6,"end":3039.6,"text":"都經過金門小三通"},{"start":3039.6,"end":3041.6,"text":"來前往大陸"},{"start":3041.6,"end":3043.6,"text":"我相信主委知道這件事情"},{"start":3043.6,"end":3045.6,"text":"導致現在金門機場常常大塞車"},{"start":3045.6,"end":3047.6,"text":"客滿"},{"start":3047.6,"end":3049.6,"text":"導致航班各個客滿"},{"start":3049.6,"end":3051.6,"text":"所以本席還是拜託主委"},{"start":3051.6,"end":3053.6,"text":"針對民眾的遷徙自由"},{"start":3053.6,"end":3055.6,"text":"跟未來不要讓金門的"},{"start":3055.6,"end":3057.6,"text":"機場這麼嚴重的塞車"},{"start":3057.6,"end":3059.6,"text":"拜託主委這邊"},{"start":3059.6,"end":3061.6,"text":"針對是不是都可以開放直航"},{"start":3061.6,"end":3063.6,"text":"讓民眾方便探親"},{"start":3063.6,"end":3065.6,"text":"或旅遊等等"},{"start":3065.6,"end":3067.6,"text":"這個部分還是希望趕快"},{"start":3067.6,"end":3069.6,"text":"盡快做出決定"},{"start":3069.6,"end":3071.6,"text":"跟業者做溝通協調"},{"start":3071.6,"end":3073.6,"text":"拜託主委謝謝"},{"start":3073.6,"end":3075.6,"text":"謝謝張委員"},{"start":3076.21,"end":3078.21,"text":"謝謝張志倫委員"},{"start":3078.21,"end":3080.21,"text":"接下來我們請許宗信委員"},{"start":3081.71,"end":3083.71,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":3091.92,"end":3093.92,"text":"我們有請陸委會 邱主委"},{"start":3099.07,"end":3101.07,"text":"好"},{"start":3101.37,"end":3103.37,"text":"今天我們修"},{"start":3104.66,"end":3106.66,"text":"這個兩岸關係條例"},{"start":3106.66,"end":3108.66,"text":"93條之4"},{"start":3108.54,"end":3110.54,"text":"所以我針對這個問題"},{"start":3110.54,"end":3112.54,"text":"要來跟各位"},{"start":3112.54,"end":3114.54,"text":"探討一個"},{"start":3114.13,"end":3116.13,"text":"陸配權力保障的問題"},{"start":3117.33,"end":3119.33,"text":"所以它會比較難"},{"start":3119.86,"end":3121.86,"text":"不是要故意刁難主委"},{"start":3121.86,"end":3123.86,"text":"而是要讓我們的法治更精進"},{"start":3125.8,"end":3127.8,"text":"我國人民登記不動產"},{"start":3128.93,"end":3130.93,"text":"現在"},{"start":3130.28,"end":3132.28,"text":"根據我國法院多數的判決"},{"start":3133.38,"end":3135.38,"text":"如果屆民登記的話"},{"start":3135.51,"end":3137.51,"text":"原則上"},{"start":3137.13,"end":3139.13,"text":"會是被允許的"},{"start":3139.19,"end":3141.19,"text":"但是原住民"},{"start":3141.43,"end":3143.43,"text":"的土地"},{"start":3143.2,"end":3145.2,"text":"如果非原住民"},{"start":3145.2,"end":3147.2,"text":"透過原住民來建民登記"},{"start":3147.56,"end":3149.56,"text":"這個我們法院判決是無項"},{"start":3150.49,"end":3152.49,"text":"這個多數的見解現在是這樣"},{"start":3152.99,"end":3154.99,"text":"那我們現在"},{"start":3155.08,"end":3157.08,"text":"在兩岸關係條例69條"},{"start":3158.49,"end":3160.49,"text":"有規定"},{"start":3160.16,"end":3162.16,"text":"也就是說"},{"start":3163.27,"end":3165.27,"text":"大陸地區人民"},{"start":3165.27,"end":3167.27,"text":"不得取得"},{"start":3167.45,"end":3169.45,"text":"設定移轉"},{"start":3169.36,"end":3171.36,"text":"不動產"},{"start":3171.45,"end":3173.45,"text":"以及其他投資行為"},{"start":3174.88,"end":3176.88,"text":"主委你不覺得這個其他投資行為"},{"start":3176.88,"end":3178.88,"text":"概念非常廣嗎"},{"start":3178.88,"end":3180.88,"text":"變成"},{"start":3179.87,"end":3181.87,"text":"我現在用一個例子來請教主委"},{"start":3183.21,"end":3185.21,"text":"一個陸配嫁過來台灣三年"},{"start":3185.21,"end":3187.21,"text":"還沒有取得身份證之前"},{"start":3189.17,"end":3191.17,"text":"他去買股票"},{"start":3191.4,"end":3193.4,"text":"是不是這裡的投資行為"},{"start":3194.23,"end":3196.23,"text":"是"},{"start":3196.27,"end":3198.27,"text":"所以這個很顯然太廣"},{"start":3199.43,"end":3201.43,"text":"那麼兩岸關係條例這樣一個"},{"start":3201.43,"end":3203.43,"text":"69條禁止規定"},{"start":3206.91,"end":3208.91,"text":"它的效果的確"},{"start":3209.2,"end":3211.2,"text":"不是很明確說"},{"start":3211.2,"end":3213.2,"text":"它如果違反這個規定去取得不動產"},{"start":3214.41,"end":3216.41,"text":"它是否是無項"},{"start":3216.19,"end":3218.19,"text":"包委員"},{"start":3218.19,"end":3220.19,"text":"要由我們主管機關"},{"start":3220.19,"end":3222.19,"text":"許可"},{"start":3222.19,"end":3224.19,"text":"如果沒有許可的話"},{"start":3224.73,"end":3226.73,"text":"是否無效"},{"start":3226.58,"end":3228.58,"text":"我們根據民法71條"},{"start":3229.82,"end":3231.82,"text":"違反法律禁止之規定者"},{"start":3231.82,"end":3233.82,"text":"法律行為無效"},{"start":3234.45,"end":3236.45,"text":"根據71條其實可以得到無效的結果"},{"start":3236.45,"end":3238.45,"text":"只是不明確"},{"start":3238.45,"end":3240.45,"text":"那我們現在"},{"start":3241.9,"end":3243.9,"text":"兩岸條例94條"},{"start":3245.19,"end":3247.19,"text":"這個"},{"start":3246.7,"end":3248.7,"text":"這是個修正案"},{"start":3248.37,"end":3250.37,"text":"修正的草案"},{"start":3249.75,"end":3251.75,"text":"啊"},{"start":3251.94,"end":3253.94,"text":"我們把它明確的講無效"},{"start":3255.72,"end":3257.72,"text":"本席暫停"},{"start":3257.72,"end":3259.72,"text":"因為本席完全接受"},{"start":3259.44,"end":3261.44,"text":"錄製來炒作台灣的不動產"},{"start":3261.44,"end":3263.44,"text":"使得價格飆漲"},{"start":3263.44,"end":3265.44,"text":"也本席也完全接受"},{"start":3265.44,"end":3267.44,"text":"反對"},{"start":3267.25,"end":3269.25,"text":"錄製來控制我們台灣"},{"start":3269.25,"end":3271.25,"text":"有國防安全"},{"start":3271.25,"end":3273.25,"text":"重要關鍵的土地"},{"start":3273.25,"end":3275.25,"text":"這個我都完全贊同"},{"start":3275.7,"end":3277.7,"text":"但是不能夠"},{"start":3277.7,"end":3279.7,"text":"夾網過正"},{"start":3278.64,"end":3280.64,"text":"不能夾網過正"},{"start":3280.64,"end":3282.64,"text":"所以這個無效我同意"},{"start":3282.64,"end":3284.64,"text":"滑緩、滑斤我也同意"},{"start":3284.78,"end":3288.78,"text":"但是各位看到我們94條之事的修法理由"},{"start":3290.13,"end":3292.13,"text":"並沒有像你的書面報告裡面所講的"},{"start":3292.13,"end":3294.13,"text":"它的立法理由為何"},{"start":3296.21,"end":3298.21,"text":"您的書面報告裡面講說"},{"start":3298.21,"end":3300.21,"text":"啊"},{"start":3300.34,"end":3302.34,"text":"因為為了要我國不動產市場"},{"start":3302.34,"end":3304.34,"text":"以及國家安全戰略"},{"start":3305.74,"end":3307.74,"text":"防疫造成漏洞的避免"},{"start":3309.22,"end":3311.22,"text":"為了避免對我國"},{"start":3311.55,"end":3315.55,"text":"安全戰略有重要性的土地"},{"start":3317.54,"end":3319.54,"text":"產生漏洞"},{"start":3318.97,"end":3320.97,"text":"以及我國不動產市場"},{"start":3321.89,"end":3323.89,"text":"這是你的書面"},{"start":3323.92,"end":3325.92,"text":"報告裡面講的"},{"start":3325.72,"end":3327.72,"text":"不受錄製的炒作"},{"start":3328.81,"end":3330.81,"text":"吶"},{"start":3329.92,"end":3331.92,"text":"你的書面報告裡面有"},{"start":3331.92,"end":3333.92,"text":"我贊成"},{"start":3333.47,"end":3335.47,"text":"但是就94條之事的草案裡面"},{"start":3335.47,"end":3337.47,"text":"也是武力華委員所提出的"},{"start":3337.47,"end":3339.47,"text":"民進黨委員所連署的"},{"start":3339.47,"end":3341.47,"text":"修正草案的理由裡面"},{"start":3344.13,"end":3346.13,"text":"並沒有您所講的這麼理由"},{"start":3348.35,"end":3350.35,"text":"這樣是我允當"},{"start":3350.65,"end":3352.65,"text":"也就是說您書面報告有"},{"start":3353.41,"end":3355.41,"text":"我贊同了"},{"start":3355.41,"end":3357.41,"text":"但是在修法理由裡面並沒有這樣"},{"start":3358.98,"end":3360.98,"text":"啊"},{"start":3360.1,"end":3362.1,"text":"那因為本席時常要出外交任務"},{"start":3362.1,"end":3364.1,"text":"國會外交任務"},{"start":3364.1,"end":3366.1,"text":"所以時常沒辦法來審法調"},{"start":3366.1,"end":3368.1,"text":"所以在這裡先跟主委報告"},{"start":3368.1,"end":3370.1,"text":"這個您書面報告的理由"},{"start":3370.1,"end":3372.1,"text":"要放進去"},{"start":3372.77,"end":3374.77,"text":"也就是說"},{"start":3374.37,"end":3376.37,"text":"要限縮"},{"start":3376.01,"end":3378.01,"text":"如果他來購買的投資的"},{"start":3378.01,"end":3380.01,"text":"就明登記的是"},{"start":3380.01,"end":3382.01,"text":"無關重要的土地"},{"start":3383.08,"end":3385.08,"text":"我們沒必要去限制他"},{"start":3385.66,"end":3387.66,"text":"沒必要去限制他"},{"start":3388.97,"end":3390.97,"text":"所以"},{"start":3391.06,"end":3393.06,"text":"我剛才提到"},{"start":3393.06,"end":3395.06,"text":"陸配嫁過來三年還沒有取得身份證之前"},{"start":3396.36,"end":3398.36,"text":"我們對他的限制這麼的多"},{"start":3400.34,"end":3402.34,"text":"我舉一個例子"},{"start":3402.06,"end":3404.06,"text":"陸配嫁過來三年先生去世了"},{"start":3405.78,"end":3407.78,"text":"還沒有小孩"},{"start":3407.7,"end":3409.7,"text":"那先生的財產不動產"},{"start":3409.7,"end":3411.7,"text":"他要繼承啊"},{"start":3412.09,"end":3414.09,"text":"那也根據69條"},{"start":3414.09,"end":3416.09,"text":"跟我們這94條的修法"},{"start":3416.09,"end":3418.09,"text":"他還是不能繼承"},{"start":3419.18,"end":3421.18,"text":"這個變成我們兩岸人民關係條例限制了"},{"start":3422.97,"end":3424.97,"text":"這個陸配的繼承權"},{"start":3425.35,"end":3427.35,"text":"這是我引擔的許可"},{"start":3427.35,"end":3429.35,"text":"主委您覺得呢"},{"start":3428.25,"end":3430.25,"text":"是"},{"start":3430.25,"end":3432.25,"text":"謝謝委員喔"},{"start":3432.25,"end":3434.25,"text":"剛剛委員講那個修正的更加明確"},{"start":3434.25,"end":3436.25,"text":"那我們也表示"},{"start":3436.25,"end":3438.25,"text":"贊同"},{"start":3438.25,"end":3440.25,"text":"剛剛您有提到"},{"start":3440.25,"end":3442.25,"text":"陸配"},{"start":3442.25,"end":3444.25,"text":"那他還是大陸人士"},{"start":3444.25,"end":3446.25,"text":"那他要購買"},{"start":3446.25,"end":3448.25,"text":"我們的房地產"},{"start":3448.25,"end":3450.25,"text":"還是要經過主管局關的許可"},{"start":3450.25,"end":3452.25,"text":"那如果說"},{"start":3452.25,"end":3454.25,"text":"繼承呢"},{"start":3454.51,"end":3456.51,"text":"看他有沒有取得"},{"start":3456.51,"end":3458.51,"text":"取得也是繼承"},{"start":3458.51,"end":3460.51,"text":"拘留"},{"start":3459.63,"end":3461.63,"text":"是可以"},{"start":3461.63,"end":3463.63,"text":"你們是因為他有拘留權"},{"start":3463.63,"end":3465.63,"text":"所以經過主管局關許可"},{"start":3465.63,"end":3467.63,"text":"但是"},{"start":3466.27,"end":3470.27,"text":"我們民法上的繼承權是不被主管局關的許可"},{"start":3470.27,"end":3472.27,"text":"因為他的先生去世"},{"start":3472.27,"end":3474.27,"text":"他嫁過來三年先生去世"},{"start":3474.27,"end":3476.27,"text":"他依法就有繼承權"},{"start":3476.37,"end":3480.37,"text":"而我們這裡變成要經過主管機關的許可"},{"start":3480.37,"end":3482.37,"text":"這樣對他們的權利保障"},{"start":3482.37,"end":3484.37,"text":"是"},{"start":3484.37,"end":3486.37,"text":"梁小利也是尊重他們的繼承權"},{"start":3487.2,"end":3489.2,"text":"但是要經過你們的許可"},{"start":3489.2,"end":3491.2,"text":"不用許可"},{"start":3491.2,"end":3493.2,"text":"這個就是民法相關的規定"},{"start":3493.2,"end":3495.2,"text":"我們說不得取得"},{"start":3495.82,"end":3497.82,"text":"69條說不得取得"},{"start":3497.82,"end":3499.82,"text":"不得取得包括不能繼承"},{"start":3502.37,"end":3504.37,"text":"所以你們限縮解釋"},{"start":3504.37,"end":3506.37,"text":"取得不包括繼承"},{"start":3507.2,"end":3509.2,"text":"這是你們行政機關的解釋"},{"start":3509.2,"end":3511.2,"text":"法院不一定接受你們的解釋"},{"start":3512.85,"end":3514.85,"text":"我們是三權分立的國家法院不一定尊重"},{"start":3516.73,"end":3518.73,"text":"主管機關的解釋"},{"start":3518.97,"end":3520.97,"text":"好"},{"start":3520.75,"end":3522.75,"text":"所以這個是我們這次修法要一起處理"},{"start":3525.71,"end":3527.71,"text":"應該要把繼承排除"},{"start":3529.08,"end":3531.08,"text":"因為他根本沒有操作我們不動產的"},{"start":3533.01,"end":3537.01,"text":"情形也不大可能去繼承到有國家安全重要性的土地"},{"start":3537.01,"end":3539.01,"text":"是"},{"start":3539.01,"end":3541.01,"text":"委員我們現行法律"},{"start":3541.01,"end":3543.01,"text":"對於陸配就已經"},{"start":3543.01,"end":3545.01,"text":"可以繼承了"},{"start":3545.01,"end":3547.01,"text":"不用主管機關許可"},{"start":3547.01,"end":3549.01,"text":"所以你們把取得限縮解釋"},{"start":3549.01,"end":3551.01,"text":"不包括繼承"},{"start":3551.01,"end":3553.01,"text":"對應該是這樣"},{"start":3553.01,"end":3555.01,"text":"那這個是你們主管機關的解釋"},{"start":3555.01,"end":3557.01,"text":"我跟主委提醒"},{"start":3557.01,"end":3559.01,"text":"法院不一定接受你們的解釋"},{"start":3559.01,"end":3561.01,"text":"我們是三權分立的國家"},{"start":3561.01,"end":3563.01,"text":"就跟各位講上"},{"start":3563.01,"end":3565.01,"text":"我們原則上都是要看法院的判決"},{"start":3564.98,"end":3566.98,"text":"好"},{"start":3566.43,"end":3568.43,"text":"好"},{"start":3567.74,"end":3569.74,"text":"我們原住民保留地"},{"start":3570.71,"end":3572.71,"text":"現在要修草案"},{"start":3573.18,"end":3575.18,"text":"還沒有通過"},{"start":3575.32,"end":3577.32,"text":"他們的確"},{"start":3576.92,"end":3578.92,"text":"建民登記"},{"start":3578.92,"end":3580.92,"text":"明確把它歸清成無效"},{"start":3580.84,"end":3582.84,"text":"跟現行法院的判決一樣"},{"start":3584.33,"end":3586.33,"text":"那他們原住民"},{"start":3586.56,"end":3588.56,"text":"的土地之所以禁止"},{"start":3589.5,"end":3591.5,"text":"讓它無效"},{"start":3591.5,"end":3593.5,"text":"原住民他們原委會提出來的"},{"start":3593.5,"end":3595.5,"text":"他說"},{"start":3594.54,"end":3596.54,"text":"這個是規避了原住民"},{"start":3596.54,"end":3598.54,"text":"身份的"},{"start":3598.73,"end":3600.73,"text":"規定"},{"start":3600.08,"end":3602.08,"text":"所以無效"},{"start":3602.08,"end":3604.08,"text":"人家他們有講無效的理由"},{"start":3604.08,"end":3606.08,"text":"是因為它規避了原住民身份"},{"start":3606.08,"end":3608.08,"text":"它沒有原住民身份"},{"start":3608.08,"end":3610.08,"text":"卻去用原住民身份的人去取得"},{"start":3610.08,"end":3612.08,"text":"土地建民登記無效"},{"start":3612.55,"end":3614.55,"text":"原委會都可以提出這樣"},{"start":3614.55,"end":3616.55,"text":"有水準的法案的草案"},{"start":3617.73,"end":3619.73,"text":"我們入委會"},{"start":3618.96,"end":3620.96,"text":"在這一次立法委員的修法裡面"},{"start":3622.86,"end":3624.86,"text":"應該要加以稍微注意"},{"start":3624.86,"end":3626.86,"text":"稍微注意"},{"start":3626.86,"end":3628.86,"text":"第二點"},{"start":3628.44,"end":3630.44,"text":"我們就三條知識的修法說明"},{"start":3631.43,"end":3633.43,"text":"也就剛才我們五立法委員的"},{"start":3633.43,"end":3635.43,"text":"修法說明"},{"start":3635.73,"end":3637.73,"text":"它稱大陸地區人民"},{"start":3639.28,"end":3641.28,"text":"我們六十九條的法定用語是"},{"start":3641.28,"end":3643.28,"text":"大陸地區人民"},{"start":3643.26,"end":3645.26,"text":"而主委您"},{"start":3644.83,"end":3646.83,"text":"剛才也是用大陸人民"},{"start":3646.83,"end":3648.83,"text":"對不對"},{"start":3647.98,"end":3649.98,"text":"我們都會用法定的大陸地區人民"},{"start":3649.98,"end":3651.98,"text":"沒錯"},{"start":3651.98,"end":3653.98,"text":"那我們這個修法的草案裡面"},{"start":3653.98,"end":3655.98,"text":"卻用中國人民"},{"start":3656.71,"end":3658.71,"text":"如果修法草案的說明"},{"start":3658.71,"end":3660.71,"text":"這樣通過"},{"start":3660.64,"end":3662.64,"text":"變成我們立法院"},{"start":3662.64,"end":3664.64,"text":"所通過的修法說明裡面"},{"start":3665.35,"end":3667.35,"text":"有中國人民這個用語"},{"start":3667.35,"end":3669.35,"text":"這樣是否妥當"},{"start":3669.35,"end":3671.35,"text":"我們尊重委員的提案"},{"start":3671.35,"end":3673.35,"text":"今天我們"},{"start":3673.35,"end":3675.35,"text":"審這個五立法委員"},{"start":3675.35,"end":3677.35,"text":"這個法案"},{"start":3677.35,"end":3679.35,"text":"他的精神在於防範中國大陸資金"},{"start":3679.35,"end":3681.35,"text":"藉由人頭"},{"start":3681.35,"end":3683.35,"text":"這個精神我贊同"},{"start":3683.35,"end":3685.35,"text":"來規避審查"},{"start":3685.35,"end":3687.35,"text":"但是他在立法說明裡面"},{"start":3687.35,"end":3689.35,"text":"是"},{"start":3689.35,"end":3691.35,"text":"用中國人民"},{"start":3691.35,"end":3693.35,"text":"這不是法定用語"},{"start":3693.35,"end":3695.35,"text":"在說明裡面呢"},{"start":3694.74,"end":3696.74,"text":"我們尊重委員的提案"},{"start":3696.74,"end":3698.74,"text":"這個"},{"start":3698.74,"end":3700.74,"text":"本席在這裡"},{"start":3702.74,"end":3704.74,"text":"跟本院報告"},{"start":3705.31,"end":3707.31,"text":"我們要用法定用語"},{"start":3707.31,"end":3709.31,"text":"還有另外一個"},{"start":3710.13,"end":3712.13,"text":"立法說明裡面講到"},{"start":3712.13,"end":3714.13,"text":"提供人頭協助登記"},{"start":3715.55,"end":3717.55,"text":"提供人頭協助登記"},{"start":3719.11,"end":3721.11,"text":"這個在一般用語口頭講話可以"},{"start":3722.15,"end":3724.15,"text":"在立法說明裡面"},{"start":3724.15,"end":3726.15,"text":"用提供人頭協助登記"},{"start":3726.15,"end":3728.15,"text":"不是很恐怖嗎"},{"start":3729.83,"end":3731.83,"text":"不是很恐怖嗎"},{"start":3732.04,"end":3734.04,"text":"而我們立法院的修法說明"},{"start":3734.04,"end":3736.04,"text":"這麼的"},{"start":3736.16,"end":3738.16,"text":"一般話"},{"start":3737.3,"end":3739.3,"text":"是通俗"},{"start":3740.37,"end":3742.37,"text":"這是否允當"},{"start":3742.37,"end":3744.37,"text":"是就是透過屆民登記"},{"start":3744.37,"end":3746.37,"text":"這個我們再跟委員來溝通"},{"start":3746.37,"end":3748.37,"text":"中國人民這個也要溝通"},{"start":3749.94,"end":3751.94,"text":"因為兩岸人民關係條例是以"},{"start":3751.94,"end":3753.94,"text":"大陸地區"},{"start":3753.94,"end":3755.94,"text":"台灣地區"},{"start":3755.94,"end":3757.94,"text":"大陸地區人民為基本的架構"},{"start":3759.43,"end":3761.43,"text":"所以我們用中國人民"},{"start":3762.06,"end":3764.06,"text":"對陸配"},{"start":3764.29,"end":3766.29,"text":"這個坦白講"},{"start":3766.63,"end":3768.63,"text":"不親切呢"},{"start":3768.44,"end":3770.44,"text":"我覺得不應該這樣子"},{"start":3770.44,"end":3772.44,"text":"不應該這樣子"},{"start":3773.25,"end":3775.25,"text":"我們應該按照我們現在的法定用語"},{"start":3775.25,"end":3777.25,"text":"在立法說明裡面"},{"start":3777.25,"end":3779.25,"text":"來加以說明"},{"start":3779.25,"end":3781.25,"text":"如果是行政院版就會用法定用語"},{"start":3781.25,"end":3783.25,"text":"但是如果這個版通過"},{"start":3783.25,"end":3785.25,"text":"就會成為本院的官方文書"},{"start":3785.25,"end":3787.25,"text":"將來我們"},{"start":3788.28,"end":3790.28,"text":"這個"},{"start":3790.28,"end":3792.28,"text":"研讀這方面的法律就會看到"},{"start":3792.28,"end":3794.28,"text":"中國人民這四個字"},{"start":3794.28,"end":3796.28,"text":"相當不當"},{"start":3796.28,"end":3798.28,"text":"有關文字的部分我們也會跟委員"},{"start":3798.28,"end":3800.28,"text":"來溝通"},{"start":3800.28,"end":3802.28,"text":"所以提供人頭部分"},{"sta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德國之聲"},{"start":3974.73,"end":3976.73,"text":"法國廣播電台等等等等"},{"start":3976.73,"end":3978.73,"text":"都把它跟在7月1號"},{"start":3978.73,"end":3980.73,"text":"的時候所實施的這個"},{"start":3980.73,"end":3982.73,"text":"民族團結促進法"},{"start":3982.73,"end":3984.73,"text":"一併連動可以看得出來"},{"start":3984.73,"end":3986.73,"text":"這個是在中國呢"},{"start":3986.73,"end":3988.73,"text":"其實已經進入了維穩大於一切"},{"start":3988.73,"end":3990.73,"text":"那所以呢他們"},{"start":3990.73,"end":3992.73,"text":"最後的結論是說"},{"start":3992.73,"end":3994.73,"text":"這個所有的民眾"},{"start":3994.73,"end":3996.73,"text":"進入中國的風險"},{"start":3996.73,"end":3998.73,"text":"可能會上升"},{"start":3998.73,"end":4000.73,"text":"這是一個很客觀的一個評論"},{"start":4000.73,"end":4002.73,"text":"其實不帶任何的髒品"},{"start":4002.73,"end":4004.73,"text":"他就是描述了一個中國現在法制的變動"},{"start":4004.73,"end":4006.73,"text":"那所以因為造成這樣的結果"},{"start":4006.73,"end":4008.73,"text":"所以你進入中國法制的風險"},{"start":4008.73,"end":4010.73,"text":"你進入中國的風險"},{"start":4010.73,"end":4012.73,"text":"有可能上升"},{"start":4012.73,"end":4014.73,"text":"因為你有可能出不來"},{"start":4014.73,"end":4016.73,"text":"主委我想請問"},{"start":4016.73,"end":4018.73,"text":"我們跟中國的關係往來互動"},{"start":4018.73,"end":4020.73,"text":"其實相當的頻繁"},{"start":4020.73,"end":4022.73,"text":"這個往來互動其實是很多的"},{"start":4022.73,"end":4024.73,"text":"你怎麼看這樣子的一個"},{"start":4024.73,"end":4026.73,"text":"中國法制的變動"},{"start":4026.73,"end":4028.73,"text":"你覺得外媒評論"},{"start":4028.73,"end":4030.73,"text":"是否正確你又會怎麼樣"},{"start":4030.73,"end":4032.73,"text":"跟國人闡述現在新的狀況"},{"start":4033.48,"end":4035.48,"text":"謝謝委員的指教"},{"start":4035.48,"end":4037.48,"text":"委員今天所說的"},{"start":4037.48,"end":4039.48,"text":"這些內容我想非常重要"},{"start":4039.48,"end":4041.48,"text":"那我記得委員"},{"start":4041.48,"end":4043.48,"text":"上次也問我"},{"start":4043.48,"end":4045.48,"text":"這個中國大陸的人士"},{"start":4045.48,"end":4047.48,"text":"很想來台灣玩"},{"start":4046.86,"end":4048.86,"text":"但是是他們的嚴格的"},{"start":4048.86,"end":4050.86,"text":"出境管制不讓他們來"},{"start":4050.89,"end":4054.89,"text":"中國大陸的學生也經常打電話來入委會說"},{"start":4054.89,"end":4056.89,"text":"他可不可以來台灣留學"},{"start":4056.89,"end":4058.89,"text":"但是你們的出入境管制就是不讓他來"},{"start":4058.89,"end":4060.89,"text":"所以中共對他的公民"},{"start":4060.89,"end":4062.89,"text":"還有對外國人士"},{"start":4062.89,"end":4064.89,"text":"自始至終就是高度管制"},{"start":4064.89,"end":4066.89,"text":"隨時都可以禁止入出境"},{"start":4070.33,"end":4072.33,"text":"那據我們了解"},{"start":4072.33,"end":4074.33,"text":"中共的這些人士"},{"start":4074.33,"end":4076.33,"text":"中共的這些公民"},{"start":4076.33,"end":4078.33,"text":"取得他們的護照"},{"start":4078.33,"end":4080.33,"text":"大概不到兩成"},{"start":4080.33,"end":4082.33,"text":"就是說他嚴格的控管他們"},{"start":4082.33,"end":4084.33,"text":"人民的出境"},{"start":4084.33,"end":4086.33,"text":"那我們這次"},{"start":4086.33,"end":4088.33,"text":"我們了解這次公布的"},{"start":4088.33,"end":4090.33,"text":"入出境的新規"},{"start":4090.33,"end":4092.33,"text":"他也是說在既有的"},{"start":4092.33,"end":4094.33,"text":"前置人民的這些手段上"},{"start":4094.68,"end":4096.68,"text":"加上一個法制化的外衣"},{"start":4097.4,"end":4099.4,"text":"而且剛委員講的很清楚"},{"start":4099.4,"end":4101.4,"text":"就是說充滿各種不確定的法律概念"},{"start":4101.4,"end":4103.4,"text":"而且認定要件"},{"start":4103.4,"end":4105.4,"text":"非常模糊寬泛"},{"start":4108.01,"end":4110.01,"text":"而且留意各種阻緩機關的任意性"},{"start":4110.01,"end":4112.01,"text":"我說你不能出去"},{"start":4112.01,"end":4114.01,"text":"就不能出去"},{"start":4114.01,"end":4116.01,"text":"我說你不能進來就不能進來"},{"start":4116.01,"end":4118.01,"text":"人民的權利無法受到明確的法律保障"},{"start":4118.01,"end":4120.01,"text":"這才是剛委員所說"},{"start":4120.01,"end":4122.01,"text":"造成恐慌的根本原因"},{"start":4122.01,"end":4124.01,"text":"那麼九月十五號"},{"start":4124.01,"end":4126.01,"text":"剛好進入中國大陸十月份"},{"start":4126.01,"end":4128.01,"text":"他有五中全會"},{"start":4128.01,"end":4130.01,"text":"維穩大於一切"},{"start":4130.01,"end":4132.01,"text":"加上習近平"},{"start":4132.01,"end":4134.01,"text":"要在明年"},{"start":4134.01,"end":4136.01,"text":"要延任"},{"start":4136.01,"end":4138.01,"text":"所以他很多的控管"},{"start":4138.01,"end":4140.01,"text":"這個人民"},{"start":4140.01,"end":4142.01,"text":"遷徙的自由"},{"start":4142.01,"end":4144.01,"text":"這個手段會更加的嚴厲"},{"start":4144.01,"end":4146.01,"text":"其實我們可以看到"},{"start":4146.01,"end":4148.01,"text":"最近北京當局"},{"start":4148.01,"end":4150.01,"text":"這幾年就是很多的國家安全"},{"start":4150.01,"end":4152.01,"text":"無限上綱"},{"start":4152.01,"end":4154.01,"text":"頻繁修訂各種的法令"},{"start":4154.01,"end":4156.01,"text":"這也是其中之一"},{"start":4156.01,"end":4158.01,"text":"這樣子啦"},{"start":4158.01,"end":4160.01,"text":"我跟您這個在互相就教一下"},{"start":4160.01,"end":4162.01,"text":"討論一下"},{"start":4162.01,"end":4164.01,"text":"上一次的質詢"},{"start":4164.01,"end":4166.01,"text":"您剛剛講到我上一次的質詢"},{"start":4166.01,"end":4168.01,"text":"我上一次的質詢其實是"},{"start":4168.01,"end":4170.01,"text":"跟您說我希望"},{"start":4170.01,"end":4172.01,"text":"陸委會既然是在"},{"start":4172.01,"end":4174.01,"text":"台灣這個處理"},{"start":4174.01,"end":4176.01,"text":"兩岸之間的關係"},{"start":4176.01,"end":4178.01,"text":"所以我們要能夠清楚的"},{"start":4178.01,"end":4180.01,"text":"讓我們自己的國民能夠了解"},{"start":4180.01,"end":4182.01,"text":"現在對岸對我們的態度"},{"star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任"},{"start":4381.6,"end":4383.6,"text":"要告訴台灣我們自己的國民"},{"start":4383.6,"end":4385.6,"text":"我們現在進入中國"},{"start":4385.6,"end":4387.6,"text":"有新的事實變動發生了"},{"start":4387.6,"end":4389.6,"text":"你進去以後你可能會出不來"},{"start":4389.6,"end":4391.6,"text":"因為他現在有一個新的法規規定"},{"start":4391.6,"end":4393.6,"text":"就是這樣而且9月15號"},{"start":4393.6,"end":4395.6,"text":"要實施啊是不是"},{"start":4395.6,"end":4397.6,"text":"所以這沒有什麼好爭辯的"},{"start":4397.6,"end":4399.6,"text":"我們在描述的是一個客觀的事實"},{"start":4399.6,"end":4401.6,"text":"立委會應該把握每一個機會"},{"start":4401.6,"end":4403.6,"text":"告訴全體的國人"},{"start":4404.05,"end":4406.05,"text":"對岸就是如此"},{"start":4405.71,"end":4407.71,"text":"他和我們不同之處也在於如此"},{"start":4408.81,"end":4410.81,"text":"所以大家可以自己做判斷嘛"},{"start":4410.81,"end":4412.81,"text":"但是我們會全力守護國人的安全"},{"start":4412.81,"end":4414.81,"text":"立委會你同意這樣的說法嗎"},{"start":4414.81,"end":4416.81,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":4416.81,"end":4418.81,"text":"我想我們還是要呼籲國人"},{"start":4418.81,"end":4420.81,"text":"兩岸關係"},{"start":4420.81,"end":4422.81,"text":"跌宕起伏但是我們對於"},{"start":4422.81,"end":4424.81,"text":"國人的人身安全都是"},{"start":4424.81,"end":4426.81,"text":"重中之重我們呼籲國人"},{"start":4426.81,"end":4428.81,"text":"復入前應該要審慎評估"},{"start":4428.81,"end":4430.81,"text":"充分了解中共法規環境"},{"start":4430.81,"end":4432.81,"text":"極可能的風險避免"},{"start":4432.81,"end":4434.81,"text":"人身安全受害"},{"start":4434.81,"end":4436.81,"text":"這是我們不斷的呼籲"},{"start":4436.81,"end":4438.81,"text":"我們也會通過各種的"},{"start":4438.81,"end":4440.81,"text":"他9月15號就會實施了"},{"start":4440.81,"end":4442.81,"text":"會不斷的一直說明"},{"start":4442.81,"end":4444.81,"text":"對不斷的說明嘛"},{"start":4444.81,"end":4446.81,"text":"因為現在這個什麼叫做國家"},{"start":4446.81,"end":4448.81,"text":"你甚至是你看上次的話2023年"},{"start":4448.81,"end":4450.81,"text":"發生了一本書說描寫重征皇帝的歷史"},{"start":4450.81,"end":4452.81,"text":"結果大家突然間說"},{"start":4452.81,"end":4454.81,"text":"這可能是影射習近平喔"},{"start":4454.81,"end":4456.81,"text":"所以那本書就不見了"},{"start":4456.81,"end":4458.81,"text":"被消失下架了嘛"},{"start":4458.81,"end":4460.81,"text":"然後最新的一個例子是"},{"start":4460.81,"end":4462.81,"text":"有一個青少年虐狗"},{"start":4462.81,"end":4464.81,"text":"然後這個這個網路引起軒然大波"},{"start":4464.81,"end":4466.81,"text":"他就用這個氣氛來抗議"},{"start":4466.81,"end":4468.81,"text":"抗議到最後因為世界弄太大了"},{"start":4468.81,"end":4470.81,"text":"突然之間這個影片就是被全部下架"},{"start":4470.81,"end":4472.81,"text":"這個影片跟政治有關係嗎"},{"start":4472.81,"end":4474.81,"text":"沒有啊他只是激動了"},{"start":4474.81,"end":4476.81,"text":"可能攪動了中國的內部的氣氛"},{"start":4476.81,"end":4478.81,"text":"這樣的東西也是被箝制啊"},{"start":4478.81,"end":4480.81,"text":"你這樣的東西有沒有可能被認為是"},{"start":4480.81,"end":4482.81,"text":"危害國家秩序安全"},{"start":4482.81,"end":4484.81,"text":"答案是有啊"},{"start":4484.81,"end":4486.81,"text":"因為他在中國的處置上面是"},{"start":4486.81,"end":4488.81,"text":"這個影片被要求下架"},{"start":4488.81,"end":4490.81,"text":"不是被要求他是直接下架"},{"start":4490.81,"end":4492.81,"text":"是這樣的狀況嘛"},{"start":4492.81,"end":4494.81,"text":"所以我們現在的狀況就是處在"},{"start":4494.81,"end":4496.81,"text":"完全不同的法治層次上面"},{"start":4496.81,"end":4498.81,"text":"所以大家的想像不能用"},{"start":4498.81,"end":4500.81,"text":"我們自己的態度去想像對岸的態度"},{"start":4500.81,"end":4502.81,"text":"所以在這樣的狀況下"},{"start":4502.81,"end":4504.81,"text":"你要選擇什麼樣的狀態"},{"start":4504.81,"end":4506.81,"text":"要選擇什麼樣的生活型態"},{"start":4506.81,"end":4508.81,"text":"這就是我們應該給國人明確的"},{"start":4508.81,"end":4510.81,"text":"明確的資訊嘛"},{"start":4510.81,"end":4512.81,"text":"謝謝主委我是希望陸委會能夠"},{"start":4512.81,"end":4514.81,"text":"更客觀的提供更多的事實"},{"start":4514.81,"end":4516.81,"text":"不斷的給國人參考啦"},{"start":4516.81,"end":4518.81,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":4519.71,"end":4521.71,"text":"謝謝蘇巧惠委員"},{"start":4521.71,"end":4523.71,"text":"接下來我們請王鴻威委員請打"},{"start":4533.33,"end":4535.33,"text":"好謝謝主席我請"},{"start":4535.33,"end":4537.33,"text":"邱主委"},{"start":4542.19,"end":4544.19,"text":"主委好"},{"start":4544.19,"end":4546.19,"text":"有關於我們今天是針對"},{"start":4546.19,"end":4548.19,"text":"大概都是我們的委員的版本"},{"start":4548.19,"end":4552.19,"text":"有關於這個兩岸人民關係條例相關的修正"},{"start":4552.19,"end":4554.19,"text":"那這些有些修正呢"},{"start":4554.19,"end":4556.19,"text":"是有更提升"},{"start":4556.19,"end":4560.19,"text":"這個相關人士的一些法律的權利"},{"start":4560.19,"end":4562.19,"text":"這基本上"},{"start":4562.19,"end":4564.19,"text":"我個人是沒有什麼"},{"start":4564.19,"end":4566.19,"text":"就不會有什麼反對"},{"start":4566.19,"end":4568.19,"text":"不過這裡面有延長管收的部分"},{"start":4568.19,"end":4570.19,"text":"我覺得要怎麼樣去"},{"start":4570.19,"end":4574.19,"text":"去強化讓整個的法律的程序"},{"start":4574.19,"end":4576.19,"text":"更為周詳這也是非常重要"},{"start":4576.19,"end":4578.19,"text":"只是說現在的看起來"},{"start":4578.19,"end":4580.19,"text":"版本非常眾多"},{"start":4580.19,"end":4582.19,"text":"而且又沒有行政院的版本"},{"start":4582.19,"end":4586.19,"text":"所以如果說到時候我們進入了逐條的部分"},{"start":4586.19,"end":4590.19,"text":"我希望能夠在相關的法律的程序部分"},{"start":4590.19,"end":4592.19,"text":"要有更周詳"},{"start":4592.19,"end":4594.19,"text":"不管是"},{"start":4594.19,"end":4596.19,"text":"不管是你延長收容"},{"start":4596.19,"end":4598.19,"text":"或者是禁止"},{"start":4598.19,"end":4600.19,"text":"這個屆民登記的部分"},{"start":4603.06,"end":4605.06,"text":"我們現在看"},{"start":4607.19,"end":4611.19,"text":"我們陸委會有很多都在講就是說統戰的部分"},{"start":4611.19,"end":4615.19,"text":"就是要提醒人民不要被中國大陸統戰"},{"start":4615.19,"end":4621.19,"text":"所以呢包含台北市這個迎來了小熊貓"},{"start":4621.19,"end":4623.19,"text":"你們也認為有統戰之嫌"},{"start":4623.19,"end":4625.19,"text":"所以呢相關"},{"start":4625.19,"end":4630.19,"text":"而且是這個市級的這個官員的身份"},{"start":4630.19,"end":4631.19,"text":"你們不讓他來"},{"start":4631.19,"end":4633.19,"text":"所以小熊貓也會統戰"},{"start":4633.19,"end":4635.19,"text":"或者是海峽論壇"},{"start":4635.19,"end":4637.19,"text":"最近陸生來台交流"},{"start":4637.19,"end":4639.19,"text":"也說有統戰的問題"},{"start":4639.19,"end":4641.19,"text":"雖然我們嘴巴上講"},{"start":4641.19,"end":4643.19,"text":"歡迎陸生"},{"start":4643.19,"end":4645.19,"text":"那我想請問一下"},{"start":4645.19,"end":4649.19,"text":"最近靖州刊有一個爆料"},{"start":4649.19,"end":4651.19,"text":"就是叫李退芝"},{"start":4651.19,"end":4653.19,"text":"我想諸位應該也認識他"},{"start":4653.19,"end":4655.19,"text":"李退芝呢"},{"start":4655.19,"end":4657.19,"text":"他之前在國際上"},{"start":4657.19,"end":4659.19,"text":"在國際上的一個報告"},{"start":4659.19,"end":4661.19,"text":"他在國際上的一個報告"},{"start":4661.19,"end":4663.19,"text":"當時啊"},{"start":4663.19,"end":4665.19,"text":"他原來是台南市議員"},{"start":4665.19,"end":4667.19,"text":"但是在我們賴總統"},{"start":4667.19,"end":4669.19,"text":"當時他組閣的時候呢"},{"start":4669.19,"end":4671.19,"text":"把他延攬入閣"},{"start":4671.19,"end":4675.19,"text":"所以他被外界視之為是"},{"start":4675.19,"end":4677.19,"text":"賴總統的親信子弟兵"},{"start":4677.19,"end":4679.19,"text":"原來是賴總統組閣"},{"start":4679.19,"end":4681.19,"text":"就把他的台南的子弟兵"},{"start":4681.19,"end":4683.19,"text":"也延攬入閣了"},{"start":4683.19,"end":4685.19,"text":"他在國際上"},{"start":4685.19,"end":4687.19,"text":"在國際上的一個報告"},{"start":4687.19,"end":4689.19,"text":"他最近啊"},{"start":4689.19,"end":4691.19,"text":"就被靖州刊爆料"},{"start":4691.19,"end":4693.19,"text":"說這個有很多台商說"},{"start":4693.19,"end":4695.19,"text":"看到他多次的遊走兩岸"},{"start":4695.19,"end":4697.19,"text":"而且呢"},{"start":4697.19,"end":4699.19,"text":"打著是說"},{"start":4699.19,"end":4701.19,"text":"是賴總統的救贖"},{"start":4701.19,"end":4703.19,"text":"甚至呢說是我們副主委"},{"start":4703.19,"end":4705.19,"text":"梁文傑的大學同學"},{"start":4705.19,"end":4707.19,"text":"那因為他這樣的一個名號"},{"start":4707.19,"end":4709.19,"text":"跟他的淵源"},{"start":4709.19,"end":4711.19,"text":"使得大陸的國台辦"},{"start":4711.19,"end":4713.19,"text":"也非常重視"},{"start":4713.19,"end":4715.19,"text":"也非常重視"},{"start":4715.19,"end":4717.19,"text":"也平平跟他接觸"},{"start":4717.19,"end":4719.19,"text":"所以我想請問一下"},{"start":4719.19,"end":4721.19,"text":"我們立委會"},{"start":4721.19,"end":4723.19,"text":"有沒有掌握到這些訊息"},{"start":4726.43,"end":4728.43,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":4728.43,"end":4730.43,"text":"包括你提到的當事人"},{"start":4730.43,"end":4732.43,"text":"副陸都沒有跟我們入委會"},{"start":4732.43,"end":4734.43,"text":"有"},{"start":4733.91,"end":4735.91,"text":"有所謂的"},{"start":4735.91,"end":4737.91,"text":"要告知我們"},{"start":4737.91,"end":4739.91,"text":"那他也是"},{"start":4739.91,"end":4741.91,"text":"也沒有在政務官"},{"start":4741.91,"end":4743.91,"text":"時間也已經過去"},{"start":4743.91,"end":4745.91,"text":"都沒有我們連審的"},{"start":4745.91,"end":4747.91,"text":"超過已經"},{"start":4747.91,"end":4749.91,"text":"管制齊了"},{"start":4749.91,"end":4751.91,"text":"所以也沒有連審"},{"start":4751.91,"end":4753.91,"text":"你們不清楚"},{"start":4753.91,"end":4755.91,"text":"你們事後也不做追蹤"},{"start":4755.91,"end":4757.91,"text":"有沒有像"},{"start":4757.91,"end":4759.91,"text":"比如說像海峽論壇"},{"start":4759.91,"end":4761.91,"text":"姚慶明因為他現在是"},{"start":4761.91,"end":4763.91,"text":"縣長"},{"start":4763.91,"end":4765.91,"text":"但是有很多像農會"},{"start":4765.91,"end":4767.91,"text":"他們也不具任何的"},{"start":4767.91,"end":4769.91,"text":"官方的身份"},{"start":4769.91,"end":4771.91,"text":"你們還是去做調查了不是嗎"},{"start":4771.91,"end":4773.91,"text":"我們有了解"},{"start":4773.91,"end":4775.91,"text":"農委會也有把報告給我們"},{"start":4775.91,"end":4777.91,"text":"他認為沒有"},{"start":4777.91,"end":4779.91,"text":"違反兩條立法的警示"},{"start":4779.91,"end":4781.91,"text":"所以你退資入委會"},{"start":4781.91,"end":4783.91,"text":"沒有去了解沒有去調查"},{"start":4783.91,"end":4785.91,"text":"我們去了解他是"},{"start":4785.91,"end":4787.91,"text":"可能是參展"},{"start":4787.91,"end":4789.91,"text":"但是並沒有違反什麼法令"},{"start":4789.91,"end":4791.91,"text":"好 等會我會繼續問"},{"start":4791.91,"end":4793.91,"text":"另外洪其昌"},{"start":4793.91,"end":4795.91,"text":"我相信主委也很熟"},{"start":4795.91,"end":4797.91,"text":"洪其昌現在雖然退流了"},{"start":4797.91,"end":4801.91,"text":"但是他是新潮流的創黨元老"},{"start":4801.91,"end":4803.91,"text":"所以他到大陸去"},{"start":4803.91,"end":4805.91,"text":"也都受到非常"},{"start":4805.91,"end":4807.91,"text":"的禮遇"},{"start":4807.91,"end":4809.91,"text":"他這幾年"},{"start":4809.91,"end":4811.91,"text":"也常常出入中國大陸"},{"start":4811.91,"end":4813.91,"text":"而且他橫跨的"},{"start":4813.91,"end":4815.91,"text":"領域更多"},{"start":4815.91,"end":4817.91,"text":"從旅遊業 科技業"},{"start":4817.91,"end":4819.91,"text":"生技業 反正是各式的產業"},{"start":4819.91,"end":4821.91,"text":"那都有"},{"start":4821.91,"end":4823.91,"text":"而且這個出入也非常平緩"},{"start":4823.91,"end":4825.91,"text":"而且帶團前往"},{"start":4825.91,"end":4827.91,"text":"帶團前往"},{"start":4827.91,"end":4829.91,"text":"那如果他去參加的話"},{"start":4829.91,"end":4831.91,"text":"也都會成為座上賓"},{"start":4831.91,"end":4833.91,"text":"那所以請問一下"},{"start":4833.91,"end":4837.91,"text":"如果會對於洪其昌您這位老友"},{"start":4837.91,"end":4839.91,"text":"那麼有沒有去做任何的了解"},{"start":4842.08,"end":4846.08,"text":"跟委員 我們有跟當事人問"},{"start":4846.08,"end":4848.08,"text":"那基本上我們也會提醒"},{"start":4848.08,"end":4850.08,"text":"要注意 附陸要注意"},{"start":4850.08,"end":4852.08,"text":"兩岸的相關的規範"},{"start":4852.08,"end":4854.08,"text":"那我想他也都很清楚"},{"start":4854.08,"end":4856.08,"text":"因為他也曾經"},{"start":4856.08,"end":4858.08,"text":"任職海基會的董事長"},{"start":4858.08,"end":4860.08,"text":"是"},{"start":4860.08,"end":4862.08,"text":"那截至目前為止"},{"start":4862.08,"end":4864.08,"text":"我好OK"},{"start":4864.08,"end":4866.08,"text":"沒有 至少我們沒有試證"},{"start":4866.08,"end":4868.08,"text":"瞭解他有不敢去的規範"},{"start":4868.08,"end":4870.08,"text":"那今年您知道他還要去嗎"},{"start":4870.08,"end":4872.08,"text":"知道嗎"},{"start":4872.69,"end":4874.69,"text":"因為他"},{"start":4874.69,"end":4876.69,"text":"不是 他時間也是"},{"start":4876.69,"end":4878.69,"text":"超過我們管制期"},{"start":4878.69,"end":4880.69,"text":"所以他也是民間人士"},{"start":4880.69,"end":4882.69,"text":"所以同樣是民間人士"},{"start":4882.69,"end":4884.69,"text":"那可能我們的農會"},{"start":4884.69,"end":4886.69,"text":"他去賣水果到大陸"},{"start":4886.69,"end":4888.69,"text":"就有問題"},{"start":4888.69,"end":4890.69,"text":"那同樣是民間人士"},{"start":4890.69,"end":4892.69,"text":"屬於是賴總統的親信好友"},{"start":4892.69,"end":4894.69,"text":"屬於是賴總統的親信好友"},{"start":4894.69,"end":4896.69,"text":"就沒有問題"},{"start":4896.69,"end":4898.69,"text":"我們只是說"},{"start":4898.69,"end":4900.69,"text":"不要賣到海峽論壇統戰品"},{"start":4900.69,"end":4902.69,"text":"好 海峽論壇是統戰品牌"},{"start":4902.69,"end":4904.69,"text":"好"},{"start":4904.69,"end":4906.69,"text":"這個"},{"start":4906.69,"end":4908.69,"text":"海峽論壇是統戰品牌"},{"start":4908.69,"end":4910.69,"text":"那請問一下北京的咖啡博覽會"},{"start":4910.69,"end":4912.69,"text":"是不是統戰品牌"},{"start":4914.42,"end":4916.42,"text":"公務員報告"},{"start":4916.42,"end":4918.42,"text":"因為海峽論壇是中共當局"},{"start":4918.42,"end":4920.42,"text":"他對台"},{"start":4920.42,"end":4922.42,"text":"統戰的一個大交流"},{"start":4922.42,"end":4924.42,"text":"大合作的一個"},{"start":4924.42,"end":4926.42,"text":"由他們主導的一個對台的平台"},{"start":4926.42,"end":4928.42,"text":"那我想您提到這個什麼博覽會"},{"start":4928.42,"end":4930.42,"text":"應該不是"},{"start":4930.42,"end":4932.42,"text":"中共當局"},{"start":4932.42,"end":4934.42,"text":"所以北京咖啡博覽會"},{"start":4934.42,"end":4936.42,"text":"不是統戰品牌"},{"start":4936.42,"end":4938.42,"text":"所以李延師他說"},{"start":4938.42,"end":4940.42,"text":"他就是去參加這個咖啡節"},{"start":4940.42,"end":4942.42,"text":"不過我可以跟主委報告"},{"start":4942.42,"end":4944.42,"text":"這個北京咖啡節"},{"start":4944.42,"end":4946.42,"text":"後來我有在網路上查"},{"start":4946.42,"end":4948.42,"text":"我想既然我很鼓勵"},{"start":4948.42,"end":4950.42,"text":"台灣的業者去"},{"start":4950.42,"end":4952.42,"text":"拓展中國大陸市場"},{"start":4952.42,"end":4954.42,"text":"台灣的咖啡很好"},{"start":4954.42,"end":4956.42,"text":"可是他根本沒有咖啡館"},{"start":4956.42,"end":4958.42,"text":"也沒有特定的台灣咖啡的攤位"},{"start":4958.42,"end":4960.42,"text":"事實上是非常非常"},{"start":4960.42,"end":4962.42,"text":"零星的個別的"},{"start":4962.42,"end":4964.42,"text":"廠商而已"},{"start":4964.42,"end":4966.42,"text":"好 那我請問一下這個也是在"},{"start":4966.42,"end":4968.42,"text":"台灣的產業非常有名的"},{"start":4968.42,"end":4970.42,"text":"金台科技論壇算不算統戰品牌"},{"start":4972.65,"end":4974.65,"text":"我想這個論壇"},{"start":4974.65,"end":4976.65,"text":"經常在兩岸"},{"start":4976.65,"end":4978.65,"text":"做一些活動"},{"start":4978.65,"end":4980.65,"text":"主委有參加過嗎 我沒有"},{"start":4980.65,"end":4982.65,"text":"好 那它是不是統戰品牌"},{"start":4983.27,"end":4985.27,"text":"這個部分"},{"start":4985.27,"end":4987.27,"text":"它比較複雜"},{"start":4987.27,"end":4989.27,"text":"那也經常在做這方面的"},{"start":4989.27,"end":4991.27,"text":"工作 那有沒有"},{"start":4991.27,"end":4993.27,"text":"統戰 那看事實"},{"start":4993.27,"end":4995.27,"text":"要以事實來認定"},{"start":4995.27,"end":4997.27,"text":"所以因為"},{"start":4997.27,"end":4999.27,"text":"這個洪奇昌連續兩年"},{"start":4999.27,"end":5001.27,"text":"都去參加這個金台科技論壇"},{"start":5001.27,"end":5003.27,"text":"而且都是座上賓"},{"start":5003.27,"end":5005.27,"text":"所以你現在不敢講它是統戰"},{"start":5005.27,"end":5007.27,"text":"平台 所以現在是不是"},{"start":5007.27,"end":5009.27,"text":"糟糕我們全台灣的"},{"start":5009.27,"end":5011.27,"text":"這個台灣的企業"},{"start":5011.27,"end":5013.27,"text":"或者是退休的"},{"start":5013.27,"end":5015.27,"text":"退休或退下來的政務官"},{"start":5015.27,"end":5017.27,"text":"都可以去參加 是這個意思嗎"},{"start":5017.27,"end":5019.27,"text":"是 委員 如果"},{"start":5019.27,"end":5021.27,"text":"您如果說有人檢舉"},{"start":5021.27,"end":5023.27,"text":"我們都會來受理"},{"start":5023.27,"end":5025.27,"text":"我不會檢舉 我不會那麼無聊"},{"start":5025.27,"end":5027.27,"text":"我只是要問你們的定義"},{"start":5027.27,"end":5029.27,"text":"因為你們的定義不能新潮流說了算"},{"start":5029.27,"end":5031.27,"text":"我剛才講李退之也好"},{"start":5031.27,"end":5033.27,"text":"洪奇昌也好 都是新潮流的"},{"start":5033.27,"end":5035.27,"text":"然後他們退下來都在游走"},{"start":5035.27,"end":5037.27,"text":"兩岸 他們游走兩岸沒有"},{"start":5037.27,"end":5039.27,"text":"問題 那別人去賣水果"},{"start":5039.27,"end":5041.27,"text":"到中國大陸就有問題"},{"start":5041.27,"end":5043.27,"text":"我現在關心的是這個部分"},{"start":5043.27,"end":5045.27,"text":"謝謝委員 委員我們"},{"start":5045.27,"end":5047.27,"text":"把它定位成統戰平台的"},{"start":5047.27,"end":5049.27,"text":"我們陸委會"},{"start":5049.27,"end":5051.27,"text":"從2012年每次都講"},{"start":5051.27,"end":5053.27,"text":"就是海峽論壇 一直到現在"},{"start":5053.27,"end":5055.27,"text":"也沒改變 而且是從馬總統時代"},{"start":5055.27,"end":5057.27,"text":"就開始呼籲"},{"start":5057.27,"end":5059.27,"text":"不要去這個統戰平台"},{"start":5059.27,"end":5061.27,"text":"我們只有針對海峽論壇"},{"start":5061.27,"end":5063.27,"text":"所以你們現在只針對海峽論壇"},{"start":5063.27,"end":5065.27,"text":"像金台科技論壇"},{"start":5065.27,"end":5067.27,"text":"裡面參加的這個"},{"start":5067.27,"end":5069.27,"text":"大陸的官員一樣的事"},{"start":5069.27,"end":5071.27,"text":"就是要大家"},{"start":5071.27,"end":5073.27,"text":"共同完成祖國統一大業"},{"start":5073.27,"end":5075.27,"text":"這樣的說評"},{"start":5075.27,"end":5077.27,"text":"談話 所以這個都"},{"start":5077.27,"end":5079.27,"text":"不算是統戰平台"},{"start":5079.27,"end":5081.27,"text":"在這個金台論壇裡面"},{"start":5081.27,"end":5083.27,"text":"大陸官員參加"},{"start":5083.27,"end":5085.27,"text":"也一定都會講"},{"start":5085.27,"end":5087.27,"text":"這個是就是兩岸"},{"start":5087.27,"end":5089.27,"text":"要共同完成祖國統一大業"},{"start":5089.27,"end":5091.27,"text":"那這樣子的論壇"},{"start":5091.27,"end":5093.27,"text":"不算是統戰平台"},{"start":5093.27,"end":5095.27,"text":"在陸委會的定義裡面"},{"start":5095.27,"end":5097.27,"text":"不算是"},{"start":5097.27,"end":5099.27,"text":"因為現在只有海峽論壇"},{"start":5099.27,"end":5101.27,"text":"如果有人檢舉 我們都會來"},{"start":5101.27,"end":5103.27,"text":"如果說委員"},{"start":5103.27,"end":5105.27,"text":"我就跟你講 我不會檢舉"},{"start":5105.27,"end":5107.27,"text":"因為我是要來質詢"},{"start":5107.27,"end":5109.27,"text":"我是要來質詢"},{"start":5109.27,"end":5111.27,"text":"因為很多的"},{"start":5111.27,"end":5113.27,"text":"企業也好 民眾也好"},{"start":5113.27,"end":5115.27,"text":"人民團體也好"},{"start":5115.27,"end":5117.27,"text":"他不知道什麼時候"},{"start":5117.27,"end":5119.27,"text":"就變成我們"},{"start":5119.27,"end":5121.27,"text":"陸委會所謂你被統戰的"},{"start":5121.27,"end":5123.27,"text":"對象"},{"start":5123.27,"end":5125.27,"text":"然後要被調查"},{"start":5125.27,"end":5127.27,"text":"對於農民團體來講"},{"start":5127.27,"end":5129.27,"text":"他參加個海峽論壇"},{"start":5129.27,"end":5131.27,"text":"他就要被調查"},{"start":5131.27,"end":5133.27,"text":"對於這個洪其昌來講"},{"start":5133.27,"end":5135.27,"text":"述時他還可以參加金台科技論壇"},{"start":5135.27,"end":5137.27,"text":"他不用被調查"},{"start":5137.27,"end":5139.27,"text":"那是不是我 所以我就要問"},{"start":5139.27,"end":5141.27,"text":"因為我們很多的人民"},{"start":5141.27,"end":5143.27,"text":"很怕去觸犯"},{"start":5143.27,"end":5145.27,"text":"陸委會所稱的被統戰"},{"start":5145.27,"end":5147.27,"text":"這個大帽子"},{"start":5147.27,"end":5149.27,"text":"一戴下來"},{"start":5149.27,"end":5151.27,"text":"這是王委員"},{"start":5151.27,"end":5153.27,"text":"因為委員很關切"},{"start":5153.27,"end":5155.27,"text":"那我們會來了解"},{"start":5155.27,"end":5157.27,"text":"金台科技論壇"},{"start":5157.27,"end":5159.27,"text":"我要講的是 請你多了解"},{"start":5159.27,"end":5161.27,"text":"在民進黨籍裡面"},{"start":5161.27,"end":5163.27,"text":"我剛剛講的 兩個剛剛好"},{"start":5163.27,"end":5165.27,"text":"都是新潮流"},{"start":5165.27,"end":5167.27,"text":"主委也是"},{"start":5167.27,"end":5169.27,"text":"然後我們的副主委梁文傑也是"},{"start":5169.27,"end":5171.27,"text":"我要講的統不統戰"},{"start":5171.27,"end":5173.27,"text":"不應該陸委會說了算"},{"start":5173.27,"end":5175.27,"text":"或者是新潮流說了算"},{"start":5175.27,"end":5177.27,"text":"不要有雙標"},{"start":5177.27,"end":5179.27,"text":"不要有雙標"},{"start":5179.27,"end":5181.27,"text":"我們會遇到證據"},{"start":5181.27,"end":5183.27,"text":"針對今天"},{"start":5183.27,"end":5185.27,"text":"要針對哪一個"},{"start":5185.27,"end":5187.27,"text":"針對饒慶林也好"},{"start":5187.27,"end":5189.27,"text":"針對我們特別的"},{"start":5189.27,"end":5191.27,"text":"這些農會也好"},{"start":5191.27,"end":5193.27,"text":"然後動輒用這種所謂的"},{"start":5193.27,"end":5195.27,"text":"統戰的大帽子"},{"start":5195.27,"end":5197.27,"text":"我要講的難以承受之重"},{"start":5197.27,"end":5199.27,"text":"其實他們做的事情都是一樣的"},{"start":5199.27,"end":5201.27,"text":"一個想要去賣咖啡"},{"start":5201.27,"end":5203.27,"text":"一個想要去賣水果"},{"start":5203.27,"end":5205.27,"text":"他們的行為有什麼差別呢"},{"start":5205.27,"end":5207.27,"text":"只是因為他們政黨不同 流派不同"},{"start":5207.27,"end":5209.27,"text":"是 我們遇到證據"},{"start":5209.27,"end":5211.27,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":5210.71,"end":5212.71,"text":"謝謝王宏偉委員"},{"start":5215.98,"end":5217.98,"text":"接下來我們請張宏祿委員巡大"},{"start":5228.97,"end":5230.97,"text":"我請邱主委"},{"start":5237.59,"end":5239.59,"text":"張宏祿也好"},{"start":5240.19,"end":5244.19,"text":"其實我們跟中國的關係"},{"start":5244.19,"end":5246.19,"text":"其實有很多很多"},{"start":5246.19,"end":5248.19,"text":"其實民眾都不清楚"},{"start":5248.19,"end":5250.19,"text":"那我想在這邊請問一下"},{"start":5250.19,"end":5252.19,"text":"主委你知不知道"},{"start":5252.19,"end":5254.19,"text":"現在他們"},{"start":5254.19,"end":5256.19,"text":"透過很多管道"},{"start":5256.19,"end":5258.19,"text":"邀請我們台灣的學生"},{"start":5258.19,"end":5260.19,"text":"去中國訪問"},{"start":5263.01,"end":5265.01,"text":"這個你知不知道"},{"start":5265.01,"end":5267.01,"text":"是 每年都會透過很多管道"},{"start":5267.01,"end":5269.01,"text":"特別是暑假期間"},{"start":5270.8,"end":5272.8,"text":"那過去呢 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我們都歡迎跟我們檢舉"},{"start":6593.6,"end":6595.6,"text":"歡迎家長跟我們檢舉"},{"start":6595.6,"end":6597.6,"text":"那麼我們就會依照"},{"start":6597.6,"end":6599.6,"text":"兩岸條例相關的規範"},{"start":6599.6,"end":6601.6,"text":"比如說未曾政府許可"},{"start":6601.6,"end":6603.6,"text":"不得從事"},{"start":6603.6,"end":6605.6,"text":"這個有關於"},{"start":6605.6,"end":6607.6,"text":"這個兩岸的這些"},{"start":6607.6,"end":6609.6,"text":"這些交流"},{"start":6609.6,"end":6611.6,"text":"各種任何形式的"},{"start":6611.6,"end":6613.6,"text":"這些合作的行為"},{"start":6613.6,"end":6615.6,"text":"那我們都可以依照"},{"start":6615.6,"end":6617.6,"text":"兩岸條例33條之一"},{"start":6617.6,"end":6619.6,"text":"那我們如果是屬於"},{"start":6619.6,"end":6621.6,"text":"內政部管的這個"},{"start":6621.6,"end":6623.6,"text":"這些團體"},{"start":6623.6,"end":6625.6,"text":"我們就交給內政部"},{"start":6625.6,"end":6627.6,"text":"來做主管機關"},{"start":6627.6,"end":6629.6,"text":"如果是相關的教育團體"},{"start":6629.6,"end":6631.6,"text":"那我們就交給教育部"},{"start":6631.6,"end":6633.6,"text":"那我們都會來積極的查處"},{"start":6633.6,"end":6635.6,"text":"那至於委員剛剛有提到"},{"start":6635.6,"end":6637.6,"text":"是不是我們可以跟"},{"start":6637.6,"end":6639.6,"text":"教育部再做一些法規"},{"start":6639.6,"end":6641.6,"text":"向下延伸"},{"start":6641.6,"end":6643.6,"text":"要求我們各中小學"},{"start":6643.6,"end":6645.6,"text":"能夠有一個指引"},{"start":6645.6,"end":6647.6,"text":"或是要求他們要來"},{"start":6647.6,"end":6649.6,"text":"上網"},{"start":6649.6,"end":6651.6,"text":"那就是剛剛說的"},{"start":6651.6,"end":6653.6,"text":"兩岸教育交流活動的"},{"start":6653.6,"end":6655.6,"text":"登錄那個網站"},{"start":6655.6,"end":6657.6,"text":"那是給各級學校的"},{"start":6657.6,"end":6659.6,"text":"不是只有給大學生用"},{"start":6659.6,"end":6661.6,"text":"那這部分我們如何"},{"start":6661.6,"end":6663.6,"text":"來做一些指引跟宣導"},{"start":6663.6,"end":6665.6,"text":"這可能我們跟教育部再來一些努力"},{"start":6665.6,"end":6667.6,"text":"好"},{"start":6667.6,"end":6669.6,"text":"我再次具體建議"},{"start":6669.6,"end":6671.6,"text":"第一個是像剛剛主委說的"},{"start":6671.6,"end":6673.6,"text":"就是如果家長有發現"},{"start":6673.6,"end":6675.6,"text":"這個是非常不對等"},{"start":6675.6,"end":6677.6,"text":"然後沒有尊嚴"},{"start":6677.6,"end":6679.6,"text":"家長的交流就例如說"},{"start":6679.6,"end":6681.6,"text":"他很明顯就是帶你去"},{"start":6681.6,"end":6683.6,"text":"把這些什麼中共的會台政策"},{"start":6683.6,"end":6685.6,"text":"直接在他們的群組裡面宣傳"},{"start":6685.6,"end":6687.6,"text":"或者是他們就跟你說"},{"start":6687.6,"end":6689.6,"text":"到這邊你都不用付錢"},{"start":6689.6,"end":6691.6,"text":"這個全部都免費"},{"start":6691.6,"end":6693.6,"text":"這是一看就有問題嗎"},{"start":6693.6,"end":6695.6,"text":"那請這個有發現的人"},{"start":6695.6,"end":6697.6,"text":"及早的跟我們陸委會來通報"},{"start":6697.6,"end":6699.6,"text":"來檢舉這個都要"},{"start":6699.6,"end":6701.6,"text":"那另外一方面就是這一些人民團體"},{"start":6701.6,"end":6703.6,"text":"因為我看教育部的回應是說"},{"start":6703.6,"end":6705.6,"text":"因為人民團體不是教育部管的"},{"start":6705.6,"end":6708.6,"text":"所以人民團體就算是藉由學校這個管道"},{"start":6708.6,"end":6710.6,"text":"去跟學生去收攏"},{"start":6710.6,"end":6712.6,"text":"去把這些娃娃抓起來"},{"start":6712.6,"end":6714.6,"text":"但是教育部罰不到"},{"start":6716.33,"end":6718.33,"text":"罰不到"},{"start":6717.68,"end":6719.68,"text":"因為他們說人民團體不是他們管"},{"start":6719.68,"end":6721.68,"text":"這個要跟內政部講"},{"start":6721.68,"end":6723.68,"text":"但問題是教育部也沒有跟內政部講"},{"start":6723.68,"end":6726.68,"text":"所以你們跨部會的協調非常重要"},{"start":6726.68,"end":6729.68,"text":"這個通報的機制拜託務必建立"},{"start":6729.68,"end":6731.68,"text":"是"},{"start":6731.68,"end":6733.68,"text":"跟委員保證現在不會有所謂"},{"start":6733.68,"end":6735.68,"text":"監委說什麼護踢啤酒"},{"start":6735.68,"end":6737.68,"text":"不可能現在我們各部會"},{"start":6737.68,"end":6739.68,"text":"我們都一起"},{"start":6739.68,"end":6741.68,"text":"在相同的平台"},{"start":6741.68,"end":6743.68,"text":"一起協力分工合作"},{"start":6743.68,"end":6745.68,"text":"而且我們合作很愉快"},{"start":6745.68,"end":6747.68,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6782.68,"end":6784.68,"text":"謝謝黃捷委員"},{"start":6784.68,"end":6786.68,"text":"接下來我們請廖先生詳詔文"},{"start":6794.18,"end":6796.18,"text":"好謝謝主席麻煩我們撤退"},{"start":6801.94,"end":6803.94,"text":"廖委員你好"},{"start":6803.94,"end":6805.94,"text":"那個主席早安"},{"start":6805.94,"end":6807.94,"text":"這個先跟你聊一個"},{"start":6807.94,"end":6809.94,"text":"題外話啦當然會跟今天的主題"},{"start":6809.94,"end":6811.94,"text":"也是會有點關係"},{"start":6811.94,"end":6813.94,"text":"就是我們如果在討論一些外籍移工"},{"start":6813.94,"end":6815.94,"text":"在台灣的工作權益的時候"},{"start":6817.45,"end":6819.45,"text":"我們常常會有很多人的"},{"start":6819.45,"end":6821.45,"text":"包括我們現在國內的法律"},{"start":6821.45,"end":6823.45,"text":"大概都這樣規定"},{"start":6823.45,"end":6825.45,"text":"和他比較勞基法"},{"start":6825.45,"end":6827.45,"text":"不會因為外國人就有不同的待遇"},{"start":6827.45,"end":6829.45,"text":"原則上是這樣的規定"},{"start":6829.45,"end":6831.45,"text":"會這樣子的規定一部分"},{"start":6831.45,"end":6833.45,"text":"是普世價值"},{"start":6833.45,"end":6835.45,"text":"人權等等的"},{"start":6835.45,"end":6837.45,"text":"但是裡面有一個很重要的精神是"},{"start":6837.66,"end":6839.66,"text":"我們也希望說我們中華民國的國民"},{"start":6839.66,"end":6841.66,"text":"到外國去工作的時候"},{"start":6841.66,"end":6843.66,"text":"我們也不要被外國的法令"},{"start":6843.66,"end":6845.66,"text":"歧視所以從我們自己做起"},{"start":6845.66,"end":6847.66,"text":"也希望說全世界的各個"},{"start":6847.66,"end":6849.66,"text":"的國家都能夠"},{"start":6849.66,"end":6851.66,"text":"有這樣子的一個普世的價值"},{"start":6851.66,"end":6853.66,"text":"不要有歧視"},{"start":6853.66,"end":6855.66,"text":"這個都是"},{"start":6855.66,"end":6857.66,"text":"為了自己的國民"},{"start":6857.66,"end":6859.66,"text":"那一樣的我們今天討論到"},{"start":6859.66,"end":6861.66,"text":"今天有討論到兩岸人民關係條例"},{"start":6861.66,"end":6863.66,"text":"有提到這個"},{"start":6863.66,"end":6865.66,"text":"購買不動產的權的法令"},{"start":6865.66,"end":6867.66,"text":"或者是這個"},{"start":6867.66,"end":6869.66,"text":"拘留的"},{"start":6871.02,"end":6873.02,"text":"這個"},{"start":6873.02,"end":6875.02,"text":"對 收容"},{"start":6875.02,"end":6877.02,"text":"這兩個東西"},{"start":6877.02,"end":6879.02,"text":"我們都希望說我們的國人"},{"start":6879.02,"end":6881.02,"text":"比如說我們台灣人"},{"start":6881.02,"end":6883.02,"text":"到大陸地區"},{"start":6883.02,"end":6885.02,"text":"我們不要被受到歧視"},{"start":6885.72,"end":6887.72,"text":"平等是非常重要的"},{"start":6887.72,"end":6889.72,"text":"那我們現在"},{"start":6889.72,"end":6891.72,"text":"台灣人到大陸去買"},{"start":6891.72,"end":6893.72,"text":"房地產"},{"start":6893.18,"end":6895.18,"text":"有沒有怎樣相關的一個限制"},{"start":6895.18,"end":6897.18,"text":"例如說現在委員提出來"},{"start":6897.18,"end":6899.18,"text":"如果建民登記"},{"start":6899.27,"end":6901.27,"text":"可能有罰款"},{"start":6901.27,"end":6903.27,"text":"甚至在地政機關"},{"start":6903.27,"end":6905.27,"text":"就直接可以去做塗銷"},{"start":6905.27,"end":6907.27,"text":"類似沒收的一個概念"},{"start":6907.27,"end":6909.27,"text":"請問台灣人到大陸買房地產"},{"start":6909.27,"end":6911.27,"text":"有這樣子的一個規定嗎"},{"start":6912.23,"end":6914.23,"text":"所以說不了解沒關係"},{"start":6914.23,"end":6916.23,"text":"對 我們並不清楚"},{"start":6916.23,"end":6918.23,"text":"台灣人去那邊買"},{"start":6918.23,"end":6920.23,"text":"房地產"},{"start":6920.23,"end":6922.23,"text":"買什麼東西"},{"start":6922.23,"end":6924.23,"text":"買怎樣的一種內容物"},{"start":6924.23,"end":6926.23,"text":"在中央跟地方是不是有什麼條件"},{"start":6926.23,"end":6928.23,"text":"我相信他們一定有他們的規定"},{"start":6928.23,"end":6930.23,"text":"畢竟他們國家的管制是比較嚴格的"},{"start":6930.23,"end":6932.23,"text":"但是我們 像我自己沒有查到"},{"start":6932.23,"end":6934.23,"text":"說我們台灣人要在那邊買房子"},{"start":6934.23,"end":6936.23,"text":"就需要經過我們像這樣"},{"start":6936.23,"end":6938.23,"text":"一些特定審查的流程"},{"start":6938.23,"end":6940.23,"text":"或是相關的一些規範或建民登記"},{"start":6940.23,"end":6942.23,"text":"有相關的罰則等等的"},{"start":6942.23,"end":6944.23,"text":"應該是沒有"},{"start":6944.23,"end":6946.23,"text":"那我們現行的規定其實就已經比"},{"start":6946.23,"end":6948.23,"text":"大陸對我們台灣人民來的嚴苛了"},{"start":6948.23,"end":6950.23,"text":"就像我們現在對於"},{"start":6950.23,"end":6952.23,"text":"大陸人民在台灣購買房地產的規定"},{"start":6952.23,"end":6956.23,"text":"跟台灣的人民到大陸去買房地產的規定"},{"start":6956.23,"end":6958.23,"text":"看起來是大陸人民來台灣"},{"start":6959.7,"end":6961.7,"text":"買房地產規定是比較嚴格的"},{"start":6961.7,"end":6963.7,"text":"我想也不至於"},{"start":6963.7,"end":6965.7,"text":"基本上我們就是許可制"},{"start":6965.7,"end":6967.7,"text":"我們台灣人卻要買"},{"start":6967.7,"end":6969.7,"text":"我們也是要許可"},{"start":6969.7,"end":6971.7,"text":"原則上是不會有這些審查的流程"},{"start":6971.7,"end":6973.7,"text":"我記得他好像可能有一些"},{"start":6973.7,"end":6975.7,"text":"定性的規定"},{"start":6975.7,"end":6977.7,"text":"但是他可能沒有許可的流程"},{"start":6977.62,"end":6979.62,"text":"那就是說我們現在比他一個人"},{"start":6979.62,"end":6981.62,"text":"一定有許可行的流程或是程序"},{"start":6981.62,"end":6983.62,"text":"包括我們也是許可制"},{"start":6983.62,"end":6985.62,"text":"那因為台灣這個土地有限"},{"start":6985.62,"end":6987.62,"text":"中國大陸可能會透過大量的資金來購買"},{"start":6987.62,"end":6989.62,"text":"所以我們現在的規定"},{"start":6989.62,"end":6991.62,"text":"就是有相關的規定"},{"start":6991.62,"end":6993.62,"text":"我並不是說"},{"start":6993.62,"end":6995.62,"text":"要請你現在就放寬"},{"start":6995.62,"end":6997.62,"text":"那我現在放寬可能就變成一個政治問題"},{"start":6997.62,"end":6999.62,"text":"等等會在這方面去吵架"},{"start":6999.62,"end":7001.62,"text":"但是我今天的精神"},{"start":7001.62,"end":7003.62,"text":"就回到剛剛"},{"start":7003.62,"end":7005.62,"text":"這個外籍公司台灣"},{"start":7005.62,"end":7007.62,"text":"的一個權力來看"},{"start":7008.37,"end":7010.37,"text":"要想的是什麼"},{"start":7010.37,"end":7012.37,"text":"我們要想的事情不是大陸人來這邊"},{"start":7012.37,"end":7014.37,"text":"買東西我們要對他做什麼"},{"start":7014.37,"end":7016.37,"text":"而是我們要擔心的是"},{"start":7016.37,"end":7018.37,"text":"如果我們對他有一些"},{"start":7018.37,"end":7020.37,"text":"過於不平等的地方法令"},{"start":7020.37,"end":7022.37,"text":"蔡英國拉的地方未來大陸"},{"start":7022.19,"end":7024.19,"text":"會不會共產黨也對台灣"},{"start":7024.19,"end":7026.19,"text":"在那邊的台商或台灣的兩邊在那邊制裁"},{"start":7026.19,"end":7028.19,"text":"也有類似的規定"},{"start":7028.19,"end":7030.19,"text":"我沒有想過這個問題嗎"},{"start":7029.51,"end":7031.51,"text":"當然我們思考的問題很多"},{"start":7031.51,"end":7033.51,"text":"我們因為來"},{"start":7033.51,"end":7035.51,"text":"我們這邊買房地產"},{"start":7035.51,"end":7037.51,"text":"買這些不動產"},{"start":7037.51,"end":7039.51,"text":"基本上我們有很多國家安全的考慮"},{"start":7039.51,"end":7041.51,"text":"因為台灣比較小"},{"start":7041.51,"end":7043.51,"text":"中資有可能"},{"start":7043.51,"end":7045.51,"text":"隱藏在各種的"},{"start":7045.51,"end":7047.51,"text":"名目下"},{"start":7047.51,"end":7049.51,"text":"來採買"},{"start":7049.51,"end":7051.51,"text":"來大批的這些房地產可能"},{"start":7051.51,"end":7053.51,"text":"會涉及到國家安全"},{"start":7053.51,"end":7055.51,"text":"所以我們一定要入持許可制"},{"start":7055.51,"end":7057.51,"text":"這是一定的"},{"start":7057.51,"end":7059.51,"text":"今天瑋瑜那修法是說"},{"start":7059.51,"end":7061.51,"text":"特別是對於"},{"start":7061.51,"end":7063.51,"text":"今天我們可以沒入他們的財產"},{"start":7063.51,"end":7065.51,"text":"明天他們可不可以沒入我們台灣"},{"start":7065.51,"end":7067.51,"text":"人在那邊制的財產我們要去思考這一點"},{"start":7067.51,"end":7069.51,"text":"我們今天可以對他去裁罰"},{"start":7069.51,"end":7071.51,"text":"明天他可以對我們台灣人去裁罰"},{"start":7071.51,"end":7073.51,"text":"我們去思考這一點"},{"start":7073.51,"end":7075.51,"text":"所以說譬如說土地法"},{"start":7075.51,"end":7077.51,"text":"我們其實土地法對於外國人"},{"start":7077.51,"end":7079.51,"text":"在台灣購置不動產有一個很明確的"},{"start":7079.51,"end":7081.51,"text":"規定叫做"},{"start":7081.51,"end":7083.51,"text":"平等互惠原則"},{"start":7083.51,"end":7085.51,"text":"你允許我們台灣人怎麼樣我們就允許"},{"start":7085.51,"end":7087.51,"text":"我們台灣人我們台灣就允許你"},{"start":7087.51,"end":7089.51,"text":"那個國家在我們台灣的規定"},{"start":7089.51,"end":7091.51,"text":"是怎麼樣那當然兩岸目前的關係"},{"start":7091.51,"end":7093.51,"text":"不是那麼的平等"},{"start":7093.51,"end":7095.51,"text":"或是說他們對我們的威脅是比較大我們有比較多的"},{"start":7095.51,"end":7097.51,"text":"一個限制"},{"start":7097.23,"end":7099.23,"text":"這個我覺得合情合理是沒有問題的"},{"start":7099.23,"end":7101.23,"text":"但是我們也必須去思考就是剛剛我跟"},{"start":7101.23,"end":7103.23,"text":"主委提到的一件事情"},{"start":7103.04,"end":7105.04,"text":"今天我們對他們怎麼樣明天他們也有可能對我們怎樣"},{"start":7105.04,"end":7107.04,"text":"我也希望說你們"},{"start":7107.85,"end":7109.85,"text":"保護台灣人在大陸的這個"},{"start":7109.85,"end":7111.85,"text":"財產安全"},{"start":7111.85,"end":7113.85,"text":"保障的情況下去思考這個問題"},{"start":7113.85,"end":7115.85,"text":"另外一個也是啊這個剛剛"},{"start":7115.85,"end":7117.85,"text":"講的這個"},{"start":7118.83,"end":7120.83,"text":"要遣返的這個規定"},{"start":7120.83,"end":7122.83,"text":"目前我們的規定是"},{"start":7123.74,"end":7125.74,"text":"150天嘛對不對"},{"start":7125.74,"end":7127.74,"text":"那有的委員要提可能在這多的情況下"},{"start":7127.74,"end":7129.74,"text":"去延長沒關係啊這個"},{"start":7129.74,"end":7131.74,"text":"有相關的一些立場我們都尊重"},{"start":7131.74,"end":7133.74,"text":"那現在大陸對台灣人"},{"start":7133.74,"end":7135.74,"text":"要遣返最多可以做幾天的"},{"start":7137.16,"end":7139.16,"text":"這個剛剛那個叫什麼"},{"start":7140.11,"end":7142.11,"text":"那個"},{"start":7141.31,"end":7143.31,"text":"類似拘留這樣的一個行為"},{"start":7143.31,"end":7145.31,"text":"如果說我們台灣人被他們拘留"},{"start":7145.31,"end":7147.31,"text":"他們晚晚"},{"start":7147.31,"end":7149.31,"text":"因為他們不是一個法治國家"},{"start":7150.58,"end":7152.58,"text":"他要關多久就是多久"},{"start":7152.58,"end":7154.58,"text":"那個是刑法規定啦"},{"start":7154.58,"end":7156.58,"text":"我說遇到要遣返的情況下"},{"start":7156.58,"end":7158.58,"text":"我們也是這樣跟委員報告"},{"start":7158.58,"end":7160.58,"text":"我們對於中國大陸人士"},{"start":7160.58,"end":7162.58,"text":"那目前最長"},{"start":7162.58,"end":7164.58,"text":"我們可以收容150天"},{"start":7164.58,"end":7166.58,"text":"對150天嘛那150天之後"},{"start":7167.33,"end":7169.33,"text":"我們就可能要考慮"},{"start":7169.33,"end":7171.33,"text":"替代收容但是我要跟委員報告"},{"start":7171.33,"end":7173.33,"text":"我們這些大陸人士"},{"start":7173.33,"end":7175.33,"text":"他們都是可能是偷渡進來"},{"start":7175.33,"end":7177.33,"text":"偷渡犯或者是"},{"start":7177.33,"end":7179.33,"text":"在台灣犯了刑"},{"start":7179.33,"end":7181.33,"text":"已經刑滿"},{"start":7181.33,"end":7183.33,"text":"要遣送回大陸"},{"start":7183.33,"end":7185.33,"text":"但是我們常常遇到一個問題"},{"start":7186.47,"end":7188.47,"text":"像過去陳青兩年"},{"start":7188.47,"end":7190.47,"text":"中國大陸都沒有把"},{"start":7190.47,"end":7192.47,"text":"這些偷渡犯"},{"start":7192.47,"end":7194.47,"text":"或是刑滿的這些刑犯"},{"start":7194.47,"end":7196.47,"text":"不安心的這些"},{"start":7196.47,"end":7198.47,"text":"受刑人把他遣返回去"},{"start":7198.47,"end":7200.47,"text":"那又在我們"},{"start":7200.47,"end":7202.47,"text":"移民署待了150天"},{"start":7202.47,"end":7204.47,"text":"那我們又不得不用"},{"start":7204.47,"end":7206.47,"text":"替代收容就把他"},{"start":7206.47,"end":7208.47,"text":"放在民間社會"},{"start":7208.47,"end":7210.47,"text":"就放在不管是慈善組織"},{"start":7210.47,"end":7212.47,"text":"總是跟我們民眾生活在一起"},{"start":7212.47,"end":7214.47,"text":"這會形成一個嚴重的"},{"start":7214.47,"end":7216.47,"text":"治安問題"},{"start":7216.47,"end":7218.47,"text":"所以我們民眾會擔心害怕"},{"start":7218.47,"end":7220.47,"text":"對等的一個問題"},{"start":7220.47,"end":7222.47,"text":"你今天可以收容他們多久"},{"start":7222.47,"end":7224.47,"text":"他們就可以收容我們多久"},{"start":7224.47,"end":7226.47,"text":"比照你台灣"},{"start":7226.47,"end":7228.47,"text":"就我的了解"},{"start":7228.47,"end":7230.47,"text":"大陸收容台灣人民"},{"start":7230.47,"end":7232.47,"text":"就是你說一些遣返了"},{"start":7232.47,"end":7234.47,"text":"60天"},{"start":7233.85,"end":7235.85,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":7235.85,"end":7237.85,"text":"我們做一個保護我們國人"},{"start":7237.85,"end":7239.85,"text":"台灣人如果在"},{"start":7241.06,"end":7243.06,"text":"大陸如果他要回來"},{"start":7243.06,"end":7245.06,"text":"我們都會把他收回來"},{"start":7245.06,"end":7247.06,"text":"馬上收回來"},{"start":7247.06,"end":7249.06,"text":"我們不會像中國大陸"},{"start":7249.06,"end":7251.06,"text":"他的人民想回大陸"},{"start":7251.06,"end":7253.06,"text":"兩年不來接"},{"start":7253.06,"end":7255.06,"text":"我覺得這次兩岸制度最大的不同"},{"start":7255.06,"end":7257.06,"text":"所以大陸就感覺"},{"start":7257.06,"end":7259.06,"text":"他不是一個文明法治的國家"},{"start":7259.06,"end":7261.06,"text":"我們當然是台灣人要回來"},{"start":7261.06,"end":7263.06,"text":"我們都要鄧講求"},{"start":7263.06,"end":7265.06,"text":"讓他回來"},{"start":7265.06,"end":7267.06,"text":"民權嘛我們更講究民主"},{"start":7267.06,"end":7269.06,"text":"更講究人權嘛"},{"start":7269.06,"end":7271.06,"text":"收容的時間比他們還長"},{"start":7271.06,"end":7273.06,"text":"因為"},{"start":7272.77,"end":7274.77,"text":"我們比他們更講求人權喔"},{"start":7275.64,"end":7277.64,"text":"今天我們收容的人數的天數比他還長"},{"start":7279.4,"end":7281.4,"text":"這個東西在邏輯上面就有點"},{"start":7281.4,"end":7283.4,"text":"怪怪的"},{"start":7283.4,"end":7285.4,"text":"現在已經有現在的一個制度在了"},{"start":7285.4,"end":7287.4,"text":"他只要收人"},{"start":7287.4,"end":7289.4,"text":"我們已經不要收了"},{"start":7289.4,"end":7291.4,"text":"我們比他更嚴格了"},{"start":7291.4,"end":7293.4,"text":"我們標榜比他更重視人權"},{"start":7293.4,"end":7295.4,"text":"結果我們對於收容的一個"},{"start":7295.4,"end":7297.4,"text":"這個規定"},{"start":7297.4,"end":7299.4,"text":"比他還更嚴格天數更久"},{"start":7299.4,"end":7301.4,"text":"然後我們現在還要改得更嚴格"},{"start":7301.4,"end":7303.4,"text":"他的國人在台灣"},{"start":7303.4,"end":7305.4,"text":"要回去"},{"start":7305.4,"end":7307.4,"text":"不讓他回去"},{"start":7307.4,"end":7309.4,"text":"我覺得"},{"start":7309.4,"end":7311.4,"text":"其實我今天討論的重點"},{"start":7311.4,"end":7313.4,"text":"從來就不是我們怎麼去管"},{"start":7313.4,"end":7315.4,"text":"大陸人在台灣購買普通產"},{"start":7315.4,"end":7317.4,"text":"大陸人在台灣"},{"start":7317.4,"end":7319.4,"text":"被收容多久"},{"start":7319.4,"end":7321.4,"text":"我今天的重點不在這一邊"},{"start":7321.33,"end":7323.33,"text":"剛剛講的"},{"start":7323.33,"end":7325.33,"text":"我們怎麼對別人"},{"start":7325.33,"end":7327.33,"text":"別人就怎麼對我們"},{"start":7327.33,"end":7329.33,"text":"如果說他一旦兩岸政策要去做緊縮的時候"},{"start":7329.33,"end":7331.33,"text":"我覺得我們"},{"start":7331.33,"end":7333.33,"text":"必須要去思考這件事情"},{"start":7333.33,"end":7335.33,"text":"兩岸如何互惠互利"},{"start":7335.33,"end":7337.33,"text":"事實上我們真的很願意"},{"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26.26,"text":"今年六月那一次"},{"start":7526.26,"end":7528.26,"text":"另外在前一次是超過兩年"},{"start":7528.26,"end":7530.26,"text":"所以中國大陸累積了非常多的"},{"start":7530.26,"end":7532.26,"text":"幾百天了"},{"start":7532.26,"end":7534.26,"text":"有"},{"start":7534.26,"end":7536.26,"text":"現行的法律這個你超過兩年了"},{"start":7536.26,"end":7538.26,"text":"現行法律150天"},{"start":7538.26,"end":7540.26,"text":"其他這500天"},{"start":7540.26,"end":7542.26,"text":"長期在台灣替代收容"},{"start":7542.26,"end":7544.26,"text":"替代收容是什麼意思"},{"start":7544.26,"end":7546.26,"text":"你再白話一點"},{"start":7546.26,"end":7548.26,"text":"我們那個移民署所謂的"},{"start":7548.26,"end":7550.26,"text":"收容他有暫語"},{"start":7550.26,"end":7552.26,"text":"收容續語收容延長"},{"start":7552.26,"end":7554.26,"text":"我們在大陸人士是150天"},{"start":7554.26,"end":7556.26,"text":"外國人是100天"},{"start":7556.26,"end":7558.26,"text":"那這150天之後"},{"start":7558.26,"end":7560.26,"text":"依法他們就不能再收容了"},{"start":7560.26,"end":7562.26,"text":"就要採取"},{"start":7562.26,"end":7564.26,"text":"由社會團體來替代收容"},{"start":7564.26,"end":7566.26,"text":"那可能找慈善單位"},{"start":7566.26,"end":7568.26,"text":"可能找其他的"},{"start":7568.26,"end":7570.26,"text":"配合宗教單位來協助"},{"start":7570.26,"end":7572.26,"text":"所以就自由的在台灣生活了嗎"},{"start":7572.26,"end":7574.26,"text":"當然要定期回到"},{"start":7574.26,"end":7576.26,"text":"移民署去做報到"},{"start":7576.26,"end":7578.26,"text":"只是這些"},{"start":7578.26,"end":7580.26,"text":"管理啊"},{"start":7580.26,"end":7582.26,"text":"往往他大部分時間都在外面"},{"start":7582.26,"end":7584.26,"text":"尤其我們的民眾"},{"start":7584.26,"end":7586.26,"text":"可能不曉得"},{"start":7586.26,"end":7588.26,"text":"他周遭有很多的"},{"start":7588.26,"end":7590.26,"text":"曾經有犯過刑罰的"},{"start":7590.26,"end":7592.26,"text":"不管是偷渡犯"},{"start":7592.26,"end":7594.26,"text":"或刑事犯"},{"start":7594.26,"end":7596.26,"text":"這些大陸人士"},{"start":7596.26,"end":7598.26,"text":"在外面替代收容"},{"start":7598.26,"end":7600.26,"text":"可能跟他生活在一起"},{"start":7600.26,"end":7602.26,"text":"其實這個對於我們的社區"},{"start":7602.26,"end":7604.26,"text":"對於我們的社會治安"},{"start":7604.26,"end":7606.26,"text":"並不好"},{"start":7606.26,"end":7608.26,"text":"是中國大陸造成的"},{"start":7608.26,"end":7610.26,"text":"他不把人犯"},{"start":7610.07,"end":7612.07,"text":"前返回去"},{"start":7612.07,"end":7614.07,"text":"造成我們的困局"},{"start":7614.07,"end":7616.07,"text":"所以我們今天很感謝委員這個修法"},{"start":7616.07,"end":7618.07,"text":"讓我們可以再延長收容"},{"start":7618.07,"end":7620.07,"text":"那就沒有這個問題"},{"start":7620.07,"end":7622.07,"text":"我們還是要把他收到移民署"},{"start":7622.07,"end":7624.07,"text":"會增加移民署的很多的"},{"start":7624.07,"end":7626.07,"text":"負擔"},{"start":7626.07,"end":7628.07,"text":"我想將來這個制度"},{"start":7628.07,"end":7630.07,"text":"也應該要增加移民署的能量"},{"start":7630.07,"end":7632.07,"text":"包括人力"},{"start":7632.07,"end":7634.07,"text":"包括經費的提供"},{"start":7634.07,"end":7636.07,"text":"移民署過去其實很有經驗"},{"start":7636.07,"end":7638.07,"text":"過去很多大陸的偷渡客"},{"start":7638.07,"end":7640.07,"text":"到現在移民署還是很有經驗"},{"start":7640.07,"end":7642.07,"text":"對於收容的部分"},{"start":7642.07,"end":7644.07,"text":"但是我們要把他法制化"},{"start":7644.07,"end":7646.07,"text":"不要讓國安有破口"},{"start":7646.07,"end":7648.07,"text":"接下來我要跟你談兩岸直航的問題"},{"start":7650.4,"end":7652.4,"text":"中國最近對我們喊話"},{"start":7652.4,"end":7654.4,"text":"希望台灣政府先開"},{"start":7654.4,"end":7658.4,"text":"烏魯木齊、西安、哈爾濱、昆明、蘭州五個直航航點"},{"start":7658.4,"end":7660.4,"text":"請問主委"},{"start":7660.08,"end":7662.08,"text":"他們現在對自由行開放了嗎"},{"start":7663.83,"end":7665.83,"text":"更衛報告"},{"start":7665.82,"end":7667.82,"text":"他這些五個航點"},{"start":7667.85,"end":7671.85,"text":"都還是目的在吸納我們的觀光客到中國大陸去觀光"},{"start":7671.85,"end":7673.85,"text":"對所以我的問題是"},{"start":7673.85,"end":7675.85,"text":"這五個城市的自由行開放了嗎"},{"start":7678.65,"end":7680.65,"text":"沒有沒有他們只有"},{"start":7680.65,"end":7682.65,"text":"對我們沒有限制"},{"start":7682.65,"end":7684.65,"text":"我們的人飛過去"},{"start":7684.65,"end":7688.65,"text":"他們沒有開放烏魯木齊、西安、哈爾濱、昆明、蘭州"},{"start":7688.65,"end":7690.65,"text":"這五個城市的人"},{"start":7690.65,"end":7692.65,"text":"可以自由行"},{"start":7692.65,"end":7694.65,"text":"開放這五個航點的意思是什麼意思"},{"start":7694.65,"end":7696.65,"text":"跟我們報告"},{"start":7696.65,"end":7698.65,"text":"只有我們的人去他們的人不能自由行來"},{"start":7698.65,"end":7700.65,"text":"是是"},{"start":7700.65,"end":7702.65,"text":"他們從2019年8月1號就停止"},{"start":7702.65,"end":7704.65,"text":"入客來才自由行"},{"start":7704.65,"end":7706.65,"text":"到現在還沒有恢復"},{"start":7706.65,"end":7708.65,"text":"對"},{"start":7708.65,"end":7710.65,"text":"那所以也有人說"},{"start":7710.65,"end":7712.65,"text":"那我們應該要先包機"},{"start":7712.65,"end":7714.65,"text":"或者是"},{"start":7714.65,"end":7716.65,"text":"如果真的有這個市場"},{"start":7716.65,"end":7718.65,"text":"如果國人真的很想去的話"},{"start":7718.15,"end":7720.15,"text":"包機我們會不會打"},{"start":7719.79,"end":7721.79,"text":"我們就希望他們提案"},{"start":7721.79,"end":7723.79,"text":"比如說西安這個點"},{"start":7723.79,"end":7725.79,"text":"是我們13個包機的航點之一"},{"start":7725.79,"end":7727.79,"text":"如果他有這個運量"},{"start":7727.79,"end":7729.79,"text":"有這個市場"},{"start":7729.79,"end":7731.79,"text":"他應該在我們的包機"},{"start":7731.79,"end":7733.79,"text":"去申請看看"},{"start":7733.79,"end":7735.79,"text":"因為我們現在的運能"},{"start":7735.79,"end":7737.79,"text":"我們航空公司可以提供的運能"},{"start":7737.79,"end":7739.79,"text":"沒有限"},{"start":7739.79,"end":7741.79,"text":"所以如果他真的有運能"},{"start":7741.79,"end":7743.79,"text":"你應該提案嘛"},{"start":7743.79,"end":7745.79,"text":"現在其實目前為止都沒有提案出來"},{"start":7745.79,"end":7747.79,"text":"大家要講平等"},{"start":7747.79,"end":7749.79,"text":"開始跟你聊"},{"start":7749.79,"end":7751.79,"text":"這五個城市也沒有開放"},{"start":7751.79,"end":7753.79,"text":"他們的這個國民的自由行"},{"start":7753.79,"end":7755.79,"text":"第二個"},{"start":7755.79,"end":7757.79,"text":"如果我們要過"},{"start":7757.79,"end":7759.79,"text":"如果這直航點或者是這個"},{"start":7759.79,"end":7761.79,"text":"包機可以成行的話"},{"start":7761.79,"end":7763.79,"text":"也都是我們的人過去旅遊"},{"start":7763.79,"end":7765.79,"text":"他們的人"},{"start":7765.79,"end":7767.79,"text":"他們這個人他們的人不能過來"},{"start":7767.79,"end":7769.79,"text":"所以為什麼要開放"},{"start":7770.6,"end":7772.6,"text":"所以包機沒有問題"},{"start":7772.6,"end":7774.6,"text":"國人要過去玩"},{"start":7774.6,"end":7776.6,"text":"包機我們完全沒有反對"},{"start":7776.6,"end":7778.6,"text":"是不是這樣主委"},{"start":7778.6,"end":7780.6,"text":"所以其實這個還是比較"},{"start":7783.17,"end":7785.17,"text":"比較政治的開放"},{"start":7785.17,"end":7787.17,"text":"那如果要政治的開放"},{"start":7787.17,"end":7789.17,"text":"如果"},{"start":7788.38,"end":7790.38,"text":"他也開放自由行的話"},{"start":7790.38,"end":7792.38,"text":"那是不是會比較大家會比較"},{"start":7792.52,"end":7794.52,"text":"比較對等的可以談"},{"start":7794.52,"end":7796.52,"text":"甚至包含相關旅行業者"},{"start":7796.52,"end":7798.52,"text":"如果也出來可以促成的話"},{"start":7798.52,"end":7800.52,"text":"那陸委會的態度是怎樣"},{"start":7800.52,"end":7802.52,"text":"根本報告我們在2025年"},{"start":7802.52,"end":7804.52,"text":"我們2月3號"},{"start":7804.52,"end":7806.52,"text":"我們就給他們"},{"start":7806.52,"end":7808.52,"text":"透過我們的台旅會"},{"start":7808.52,"end":7810.52,"text":"給他們的海旅會一封信"},{"start":7810.52,"end":7812.52,"text":"我們希望就兩岸"},{"start":7812.52,"end":7814.52,"text":"的觀光旅遊"},{"start":7814.52,"end":7816.52,"text":"就旅遊安全"},{"start":7816.52,"end":7818.52,"text":"旅遊品質"},{"start":7818.52,"end":7820.52,"text":"旅遊穩定性跟公平性坐下來談"},{"start":7821.26,"end":7823.26,"text":"我們已經呼籲那麼久了"},{"start":7823.26,"end":7825.26,"text":"他遲遲就是不願意來談"},{"start":7825.26,"end":7827.26,"text":"如果願意來談"},{"start":7827.26,"end":7829.26,"text":"如果談出結果我們再來開放"},{"start":7829.26,"end":7831.26,"text":"這個對雙方的旅遊品質"},{"start":7831.26,"end":7833.26,"text":"對業者"},{"start":7833.26,"end":7835.26,"text":"對我們彼此的"},{"start":7835.26,"end":7837.26,"text":"對接有一些旅遊意外"},{"start":7837.26,"end":7839.26,"text":"都非常好的事情"},{"start":7839.26,"end":7841.26,"text":"但是我們很遺憾"},{"start":7841.26,"end":7843.26,"text":"他們就是不願意透過小兩會來談"},{"start":7843.26,"end":7845.26,"text":"沒有回應嘛"},{"start":7845.26,"end":7847.26,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":7846.13,"end":7848.13,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":7849.2,"end":7851.2,"text":"好謝謝李德怡蔡榮"},{"start":7851.2,"end":7853.2,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":7860.66,"end":7862.66,"text":"好謝謝接下來我們請吳祺民委員巡達"},{"start":7867.85,"end":7869.85,"text":"好請我們立委會我們的邱主委"},{"start":7874.16,"end":7876.16,"text":"邱主委好"},{"start":7876.16,"end":7878.16,"text":"針對我們監察院"},{"start":7878.16,"end":7880.16,"text":"我們前幾天"},{"start":7880.16,"end":7882.16,"text":"提出的報告"},{"start":7882.16,"end":7884.16,"text":"我們台灣到中國大陸學生的交流"},{"start":7884.16,"end":7886.16,"text":"的人數"},{"start":7886.16,"end":7888.16,"text":"都是暴增"},{"start":7888.16,"end":7890.16,"text":"從大學還有高中國中"},{"start":7890.16,"end":7892.16,"text":"還有國小都有"},{"start":7892.16,"end":7894.16,"text":"這一點大家今天"},{"start":7894.16,"end":7896.16,"text":"也都在討論這個問題"},{"start":7896.16,"end":7898.16,"text":"那再來"},{"start":7898.16,"end":7900.16,"text":"包含我們的"},{"start":7900.16,"end":7902.16,"text":"150天的"},{"start":7902.16,"end":7904.16,"text":"旅遊的問題"},{"start":7904.16,"end":7906.16,"text":"也是在討論的範圍"},{"start":7906.16,"end":7908.16,"text":"那本席在這邊"},{"start":7908.16,"end":7910.16,"text":"就是針對我們一個現實的問題"},{"start":7910.16,"end":7912.16,"text":"來請問一下我們的主委"},{"start":7912.16,"end":7914.16,"text":"因為在本席"},{"start":7914.16,"end":7916.16,"text":"有個里長"},{"start":7916.16,"end":7918.16,"text":"因為他"},{"start":7918.16,"end":7920.16,"text":"依照我們我國現行法令"},{"start":7920.16,"end":7922.16,"text":"在大陸"},{"start":7922.16,"end":7924.16,"text":"地區人民"},{"start":7924.16,"end":7926.16,"text":"參選公職以符合"},{"start":7926.16,"end":7928.16,"text":"相關的資格"},{"start":7928.16,"end":7930.16,"text":"包括不得保有大陸地區"},{"start":7930.16,"end":7932.16,"text":"的要求"},{"start":7932.16,"end":7934.16,"text":"當選後一年必須"},{"start":7934.16,"end":7936.16,"text":"繳交放棄國籍"},{"start":7936.16,"end":7938.16,"text":"上司延期"},{"start":7938.16,"end":7940.16,"text":"相關的文件"},{"start":7940.16,"end":7942.16,"text":"但是我們問題來了"},{"start":7943.19,"end":7945.19,"text":"他到中國大陸要去"},{"start":7945.19,"end":7947.19,"text":"申請放棄國籍"},{"start":7948.24,"end":7950.24,"text":"沒有辦法去取得"},{"start":7950.24,"end":7952.24,"text":"這個問題"},{"start":7952.24,"end":7954.24,"text":"是以前"},{"start":7954.24,"end":7956.24,"text":"我們沒有要求"},{"start":7956.24,"end":7958.24,"text":"但是以前就存在了"},{"start":7958.24,"end":7960.24,"text":"那你現在他們要追溯"},{"start"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陸委會可以嗎"},{"start":8726.53,"end":8728.53,"text":"當然我們會來問主管機關農業部"},{"start":8728.53,"end":8730.53,"text":"因為其實目前為止"},{"start":8730.53,"end":8732.53,"text":"他們有跟我們有任何的"},{"start":8732.53,"end":8734.53,"text":"請求"},{"start":8734.53,"end":8736.53,"text":"或是說請我們來合作"},{"start":8736.53,"end":8738.53,"text":"農業部針對你剛剛提到的"},{"start":8738.53,"end":8740.53,"text":"可能有出"},{"start":8740.53,"end":8742.53,"text":"所以你在這邊就證明了這個食安"},{"start":8742.53,"end":8744.53,"text":"問題"},{"start":8744.53,"end":8746.53,"text":"尤其這個毒油風暴"},{"start":8746.53,"end":8748.53,"text":"燃燒了一個月了"},{"start":8748.53,"end":8750.53,"text":"結果政府的態度"},{"start":8750.53,"end":8752.53,"text":"還是拖拖拉拉"},{"start":8752.53,"end":8754.53,"text":"你在這邊證明啊 對啊"},{"start":8754.53,"end":8756.53,"text":"農業部也沒找你們 你們看到"},{"start":8756.53,"end":8758.53,"text":"好像疑似新聞大概都有報導"},{"start":8758.53,"end":8760.53,"text":"連我們都看到了"},{"start":8760.53,"end":8762.53,"text":"可能是中國大陸來的"},{"start":8762.53,"end":8764.53,"text":"你們也是沒有主動積極的查"},{"start":8764.53,"end":8766.53,"text":"我想因為時間關係"},{"start":8766.53,"end":8768.53,"text":"我也不想浪費大家時間"},{"start":8768.53,"end":8770.53,"text":"耽誤大家時間"},{"start":8771.22,"end":8773.22,"text":"主委"},{"start":8772.26,"end":8774.26,"text":"我們建立跨境食安的治理"},{"start":8774.26,"end":8776.26,"text":"絕對不是等事件發生"},{"start":8776.26,"end":8778.26,"text":"因為今天可能有苦茶油"},{"start":8778.26,"end":8780.26,"text":"明天可能是茶葉"},{"start":8780.26,"end":8782.26,"text":"芝麻花生中藥材等等"},{"start":8782.26,"end":8784.26,"text":"所以我們"},{"start":8784.26,"end":8786.26,"text":"比較想知道的是我們的政府"},{"start":8786.26,"end":8788.26,"text":"到底有沒有能力"},{"start":8788.26,"end":8790.26,"text":"在第一時間追到源頭"},{"start":8790.26,"end":8792.26,"text":"查明真相"},{"start":8792.26,"end":8794.26,"text":"這些農產品原物料"},{"start":8794.26,"end":8796.26,"text":"有造成食安問題"},{"start":8796.26,"end":8798.26,"text":"我們"},{"start":8798.26,"end":8800.26,"text":"我們就是希望"},{"start":8800.26,"end":8802.26,"text":"陸委會能夠積極善用"},{"start":8802.26,"end":8804.26,"text":"海峽兩岸食品安全協議"},{"start":8804.26,"end":8806.26,"text":"還有海峽兩岸"},{"start":8806.26,"end":8810.26,"text":"農產品檢驗合作協議"},{"start":8810.26,"end":8812.26,"text":"把兩岸既有的機制制度"},{"start":8812.26,"end":8814.26,"text":"運用在保障人民健康"},{"start":8814.26,"end":8816.26,"text":"不是等到事件"},{"start":8816.26,"end":8818.26,"text":"這次是事件發生了"},{"start":8818.26,"end":8820.26,"text":"你們都還沒動"},{"start":8820.26,"end":8822.26,"text":"那我們要求的是"},{"start":8822.26,"end":8824.26,"text":"你們應該更積極"},{"start":8824.26,"end":8826.26,"text":"不是等到事件結束"},{"start":8826.26,"end":8828.26,"text":"你才回頭檢討"},{"start":8828.26,"end":8830.26,"text":"最後本席要說是"},{"start":8830.26,"end":8832.26,"text":"我們的食品安全沒有藍綠"},{"start":8832.26,"end":8834.26,"text":"大家每天都在吃"},{"start":8834.26,"end":8836.26,"text":"你吃到毒油 我也吃到毒油"},{"start":8836.26,"end":8838.26,"text":"我們也絕對不要兩岸對立"},{"start":8838.26,"end":8840.26,"text":"我們食品安全"},{"start":8840.26,"end":8842.26,"text":"只有共同一個目標"},{"start":8842.26,"end":8844.26,"text":"就是要讓人民吃得安心"},{"start":8844.26,"end":8846.26,"text":"吃得安全"},{"start":8846.26,"end":8848.26,"text":"請陸委會加油一點好嗎"},{"start":8848.26,"end":8850.26,"text":"謝謝許委員"},{"start":8850.97,"end":8852.97,"text":"好謝謝徐新穎委員"},{"start":8854.53,"end":8858.53,"text":"接下來我們請下一位蘇清泉委員"},{"start":8860.32,"end":8863.32,"text":"蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在"},{"start":8863.32,"end":8865.32,"text":"我們請鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":8866.24,"end":8868.24,"text":"鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":8868.24,"end":8870.24,"text":"鍾嘉斌委員不在"},{"start":8870.24,"end":8872.24,"text":"我們請鄭政前委員"},{"start":8872.24,"end":8874.24,"text":"鄭政前委員"},{"start":8874.24,"end":8876.24,"text":"鄭政前委員不在"},{"start":8876.24,"end":8878.24,"text":"登記質詢委員除不在場外"},{"start":8878.24,"end":8880.24,"text":"其餘軍語質詢完畢 詢答結束"},{"start":8881.44,"end":8883.44,"text":"委員林楚英 傅坤齊 徐新穎"},{"start":8883.44,"end":8885.44,"text":"所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報"},{"start":8887.3,"end":8889.3,"text":"書面質詢和未集答覆部分"},{"start":8889.3,"end":8891.3,"text":"請相關單位於一周內"},{"start":8891.3,"end":8893.3,"text":"以書面答覆並複製本會"},{"start":8894.89,"end":8898.89,"text":"討論事項所列議案均令其繼續審查"},{"start":8898.89,"end":8900.89,"text":"本次會議到此結束"},{"start":8903.23,"end":8904.23,"text":"委員會議員不在"},{"start":8904.46,"end":8906.46,"text":"現在散會"}],"speakers":[{"total_seconds":193.76,"embed_id":"SPEAKER_00","speaker":"SPEAKER_00","embedding":"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"},{"total_seconds":15.12,"embed_id":"SPEAKER_01","speaker":"SPEAKER_01","embedding":"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"},{"total_seconds":391.57,"embed_id":"SPEAKER_02","speaker":"SPEAKER_02","embedding":"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"},{"total_seconds":2431.55,"embed_id":"SPEAKER_03","speaker":"SPEAKER_03","embedding":"4fYovmR0cbw57Eo9AUJoPg05Z77Fjim9SK0IvZ+fUT2+lBI8qVBpPRYokTxVDyK8DL2+PU7mxT3eD8S8vfYbvpyItT02d7Q80REoPrK1sD1lSFa+ySv7vPQDHjuF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