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表"},{"start":1913.96,"end":1914.96,"text":"先到了嗎"},{"start":1916.95,"end":1918.95,"text":"好"},{"start":1919.43,"end":1921.43,"text":"我們按照這個先後順序"},{"start":1922.35,"end":1925.35,"text":"我們第一位是馮甲大學運輸跟物流學系"},{"start":1925.35,"end":1927.35,"text":"林大傑副教授"},{"start":1928.34,"end":1930.34,"text":"歡迎"},{"start":1930.75,"end":1933.75,"text":"再來是台灣數位平台預約接送"},{"start":1933.75,"end":1935.75,"text":"從業人員產業工會"},{"start":1935.75,"end":1937.75,"text":"李威爾理事長"},{"start":1941.92,"end":1943.92,"text":"中華大學企業管理系"},{"start":1943.92,"end":1945.92,"text":"羅士金副教授"},{"start":1947,"end":1949,"text":"你好"},{"start":1949.21,"end":1951.21,"text":"和太移動服務股份有限公司"},{"start":1951.21,"end":1953.21,"text":"葉俊谷總經理"},{"start":1954.73,"end":1956.73,"text":"歡迎"},{"start":1956.59,"end":1959.59,"text":"屏東縣計程車客運商業同業工會"},{"start":1959.59,"end":1961.59,"text":"林沛莉理事長"},{"start":1963.99,"end":1967.99,"text":"中華民國計程車客運服務商業同業工會全國聯合會"},{"start":1967.99,"end":1969.99,"text":"李越哲理事"},{"start":1972.04,"end":1974.04,"text":"謝謝各位"},{"start":1973.38,"end":1974.38,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":1975.55,"end":1978.55,"text":"柏歐特台灣服務股份有限公司"},{"start":1979.69,"end":1981.69,"text":"曾憲宏台灣劇總經理"},{"start":1985.85,"end":1986.85,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":1988.33,"end":1990.33,"text":"優步福爾摩沙股份有限公司"},{"start":1990.33,"end":1993.33,"text":"公共政策暨政府事務總監馬培志總監"},{"start":1996.6,"end":2002.6,"text":"宏甲大學文化與社會創新碩士學位學程"},{"start":2002.6,"end":2004.6,"text":"特聘教授侯勝中教授"},{"start":2006.1,"end":2007.1,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":2007.77,"end":2008.77,"text":"還有一位沒有嗎"},{"start":2008.77,"end":2009.77,"text":"還沒到"},{"start":2009.77,"end":2010.77,"text":"稍等他一下"},{"start":2011.8,"end":2012.8,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":2013.96,"end":2015.96,"text":"接下來介紹我們今天的練習官員"},{"start":2021.49,"end":2024.49,"text":"我們交通部先由常務次長林國賢次長出席"},{"start":2027.76,"end":2030.76,"text":"再來是公共運輸及監理師司長胡迪奇司長"},{"start":2032.83,"end":2035.83,"text":"再來是法制處處長許宏達處長"},{"start":2038.43,"end":2040.43,"text":"公務局副局長周庭章副局長"},{"start":2043.54,"end":2046.54,"text":"運輸研究所副所長王慕衡副所長"},{"start":2048.66,"end":2051.66,"text":"數位發展部政務次長楊嘉玲次長"},{"start":2053.92,"end":2056.92,"text":"數位產業署副署長黃雅萍副署長"},{"start":2059.39,"end":2062.39,"text":"經濟部投資沈義思專委張如誠專委"},{"start":2065.92,"end":2068.92,"text":"商業署公司登記組組長蕭旭東"},{"start":2071.3,"end":2074.3,"text":"內政部警政署交通組副署長陳曹新"},{"start":2076.8,"end":2079.8,"text":"法務部教務辦事檢察官楊思宇檢察官"},{"start":2081.75,"end":2084.75,"text":"行政院主地總處公務預算處專委吳明修專委"},{"start":2087.91,"end":2090.91,"text":"財政部附稅署消費稅主專門委員李美慧專委"},{"start":2092.99,"end":2095.99,"text":"勞動部勞動關係司許根奎專委"},{"start":2101.53,"end":2104.53,"text":"再來針對本日公立會發言的順序先做以下宣告"},{"start":2105.78,"end":2108.78,"text":"學者專家每月發言時間為8分鐘"},{"start":2108.78,"end":2111.78,"text":"那請用帶螢幕前的發言台"},{"start":2111.78,"end":2114.78,"text":"發言台對面正上方的燈號是倒數計時"},{"start":2115.31,"end":2118.31,"text":"發言時間結束前一分鐘會有提醒聲一聲"},{"start":2118.31,"end":2121.31,"text":"發言時間結束會提醒兩聲"},{"start":2121.31,"end":2125.31,"text":"那主題台這邊也會按一次長鈴再一次提醒發言時間結束"},{"start":2125.31,"end":2126.31,"text":"請各位把握時間"},{"start":2127.58,"end":2130.58,"text":"第一輪發言依照各位簽到順序發言"},{"start":2130.58,"end":2135.58,"text":"第一輪發言順序結束之後如果有需要補充發言我們再進行第二輪發言"},{"start":2137.11,"end":2140.11,"text":"原則上選擇專家兩位發言之後"},{"start":2140.11,"end":2144.11,"text":"如果有本院委員到場就穿插一位委員發言"},{"start":2144.84,"end":2147.84,"text":"每位委員發言時間為5分鐘"},{"start":2150.38,"end":2153.38,"text":"學者專家第一輪均已發言完畢"},{"start":2153.38,"end":2154.38,"text":"響燈"},{"start":2154.82,"end":2155.82,"text":"抱歉"},{"start":2156.72,"end":2158.72,"text":"委員發言請先到主題台登記"},{"start":2158.72,"end":2164.72,"text":"那學者專家及委員均發言完畢之後再請機關代表做回應及意見之表達"},{"start":2164.72,"end":2168.72,"text":"讓我們暫定10點30分休息10分鐘"},{"start":2173.43,"end":2176.43,"text":"我們先請登記第一位林大傑副教授發言"},{"start":2193.39,"end":2198.39,"text":"主席各位委員各位在場的先進大家早安"},{"start":2198.39,"end":2201.39,"text":"我是馮鳥大學林大傑"},{"start":2201.39,"end":2203.39,"text":"今天第一次發言"},{"start":2203.39,"end":2207.39,"text":"其實我的第一次發言也代表就是笨鳥先飛的開始"},{"start":2207.39,"end":2211.39,"text":"因為我大概是上週五我才接到這個議題"},{"start":2211.39,"end":2216.39,"text":"那我也有一種學者的個性做一點小小的study"},{"start":2216.39,"end":2221.39,"text":"那當然這個深度跟廣度絕對不如在座的專家學者"},{"start":2221.39,"end":2224.39,"text":"但是我願意用這個東西來拋磚引玉"},{"start":2224.39,"end":2226.39,"text":"讓大家來思考一下這個法案"},{"start":2230.38,"end":2236.38,"text":"首先應該是說這整個立法的背景還是我們數位平台改變的運輸市場"},{"start":2236.38,"end":2240.38,"text":"嚴格說起來數位它的平台不僅影響我們的運輸市場"},{"start":2240.38,"end":2243.38,"text":"還影響我們生活中的實際住行娛樂"},{"start":2243.38,"end":2248.38,"text":"所以在這邊我們現在國家面臨的是一個監理的抉擇"},{"start":2248.38,"end":2253.38,"text":"在uber等網路平台突破傳統的營運模式"},{"start":2254.28,"end":2256.28,"text":"它的影響不但是只有台灣"},{"start":2256.28,"end":2265.28,"text":"其實全世界所有的國家都只要有uber或相關平台社足的國家都受到這個衝擊"},{"start":2265.28,"end":2270.28,"text":"所以呢我們現在開始思考營運模式是要怎麼樣來突破"},{"start":2270.28,"end":2273.28,"text":"法規衝突跟爭議如何來解決"},{"start":2273.28,"end":2278.28,"text":"那目前的進度就我所知應該是我們上個月我們立法委員"},{"start":2278.28,"end":2282.28,"text":"他共同擬具了一個服務管理條例的一個草案"},{"start":2282.28,"end":2286.28,"text":"那準備來針對這個平台進行專法的這個管理"},{"start":2287.15,"end":2290.15,"text":"但現況呢就如果我投影片最下面呢"},{"start":2290.15,"end":2291.15,"text":"還是以現行的"},{"start":2292.42,"end":2295.42,"text":"預觸法規來管理這些網約車的服務"},{"start":2296.08,"end":2298.08,"text":"那我又把草案"},{"start":2298.08,"end":2301.08,"text":"因為我剛有幸拜讀了我們的草案"},{"start":2301.08,"end":2304.08,"text":"那在這兩天我想了一下跟我們現行的法制呢"},{"start":2304.08,"end":2306.08,"text":"我做了一個簡單的一個比較"},{"start":2306.08,"end":2312.08,"text":"包括從管理模式一個是專法一個是回歸公路法及相關條例"},{"start":2312.08,"end":2313.08,"text":"另外是管理的對象"},{"start":2313.08,"end":2319.08,"text":"那分別有針對現在的數位這個網際網路媒合平台等等"},{"start":2319.08,"end":2321.08,"text":"那平台的法律地位"},{"start":2321.98,"end":2326.98,"text":"駕駛管理車輛管理平台責任及裁罰等等"},{"start":2326.98,"end":2330.98,"text":"都把某一部分的要求監理的要求呢"},{"start":2330.98,"end":2333.98,"text":"付諸在這個平台業者的身上"},{"start":2333.98,"end":2336.98,"text":"那最大的差異呢就是管理的重心"},{"start":2336.98,"end":2340.98,"text":"那目前現行的法制呢是以管理運輸業為主"},{"start":2340.98,"end":2345.98,"text":"那那個未來的條例呢希望是管理這個平台"},{"start":2348.25,"end":2353.25,"text":"那其實這兩種制度背後其實是不一樣的監理的一個想法"},{"start":2353.25,"end":2357.25,"text":"那草案呢是以平台管制為主"},{"start":2357.25,"end":2362.25,"text":"它包括要跟主管機關申請許可保存交易記錄點點點"},{"start":2362.25,"end":2368.25,"text":"那我們就思考說那這個平台會不會是一個新的一個營運的主體"},{"start":2368.66,"end":2372.66,"text":"那現行法呢是針對運輸業的相關的管制啊"},{"start":2372.66,"end":2374.66,"text":"包括計程車客運業等等"},{"start":2374.66,"end":2379.66,"text":"那我們的重點呢傳統上呢就是車輛駕駛跟車隊等等"},{"start":2379.66,"end":2383.66,"text":"那在目前的架構下呢平台只是資訊媒合"},{"start":2383.66,"end":2386.66,"text":"未被定位為新的運輸業別"},{"start":2386.66,"end":2389.66,"text":"所以Uber必須跟車隊來合作"},{"start":2389.66,"end":2391.66,"text":"這些司機才可以得到派遣"},{"start":2392.1,"end":2396.1,"text":"但是呢我們看看國外怎麼做"},{"start":2396.1,"end":2398.1,"text":"待會我們會談到這個"},{"start":2398.1,"end":2400.1,"text":"那我首先呢在這邊呢"},{"start":2400.1,"end":2402.1,"text":"我又把目前的"},{"start":2401.8,"end":2405.8,"text":"運你的這個管理條例跟現行法制有個優缺點的比較"},{"start":2405.8,"end":2406.8,"text":"我講重點"},{"start":2406.8,"end":2409.8,"text":"那現如果有一個新法"},{"start":2410.47,"end":2417.47,"text":"它的優點呢就是符合數位數位平台發展的一個經濟的一個實況反應共享經濟的操作"},{"start":2418.1,"end":2420.1,"text":"那他缺點呢可能呢"},{"start":2420.1,"end":2425.1,"text":"就是目前跟現在制度可能會有一些重複管理的問題"},{"start":2425.1,"end":2427.1,"text":"那到底比如說對於駕駛員的管理"},{"start":2427.1,"end":2433.1,"text":"到底是車隊的責任還是平台的責任還是一半一半還是怎麼樣的比例"},{"start":2433.1,"end":2436.1,"text":"這個時候其實還需要再探討"},{"start":2436.1,"end":2437.1,"text":"那現行的部分呢"},{"start":2437.1,"end":2442.1,"text":"他的優點呢是沿用現有的法律架構成本比較低"},{"start":2442.1,"end":2445.1,"text":"而且修法速度會比較快"},{"start":2445.1,"end":2449.1,"text":"那他缺點當然就是對於這個平台業者可能管理不足"},{"start":2449.1,"end":2450.1,"text":"但是我們要反過來想"},{"start":2450.1,"end":2454.1,"text":"我們到底要對平台業者管做多少的管理"},{"start":2454.1,"end":2456.1,"text":"這個就是我們該去思考的"},{"start":2456.1,"end":2461.1,"text":"那我就順便我就談一下這個國際目前一些制度的一些比較"},{"start":2461.77,"end":2464.77,"text":"那歐盟有一個叫Digital Service Act"},{"start":2464.77,"end":2469.77,"text":"他是用傳統運輸管理轉向為一個平台治理的模式"},{"start":2469.77,"end":2473.77,"text":"他有個結論就是平台不只是資訊媒介"},{"start":2473.77,"end":2476.77,"text":"而是應該也站出來負起責任"},{"start":2476.77,"end":2479.77,"text":"這是他的一個結論"},{"start":2479.77,"end":2481.77,"text":"其他很複雜的部分我就不提"},{"start":2481.77,"end":2486.77,"text":"另外呢還有一個叫做CJU的一個Mindstone Ruling"},{"start":2486.77,"end":2490.77,"text":"他就是定義Uber其實並非單純的資訊服務"},{"start":2490.77,"end":2492.77,"text":"而是交通運輸服務的一部分"},{"start":2492.77,"end":2494.77,"text":"這個案子非常的知名"},{"start":2494.77,"end":2497.77,"text":"我相信在座的學者專家應該都清楚"},{"start":2499.59,"end":2500.59,"text":"在美國呢"},{"start":2500.59,"end":2503.59,"text":"美國目前是由州政府來自主管理"},{"start":2503.59,"end":2505.59,"text":"他有個叫TNC"},{"start":2505.59,"end":2508.59,"text":"這個TNC在我們交通運輸管理呢"},{"start":2508.59,"end":2513.59,"text":"也是一個相對比較新的名詞叫Transportation Network Company"},{"start":2513.59,"end":2515.59,"text":"也就是交通網路公司"},{"start":2515.59,"end":2517.59,"text":"他其實在這個架構下"},{"start":2517.59,"end":2518.59,"text":"在這個定義下"},{"start":2518.59,"end":2522.59,"text":"他把平台視為一個新的運輸業"},{"start":2522.59,"end":2527.59,"text":"他必須跟州政府登記相關的商業保險制度等等"},{"start":2527.59,"end":2529.59,"text":"建立乘客安全制度"},{"start":2529.59,"end":2531.59,"text":"這個都是他賦予他的工作"},{"start":2531.59,"end":2533.59,"text":"那在日本的話呢"},{"start":2533.59,"end":2534.59,"text":"那日本呢"},{"start":2534.59,"end":2536.59,"text":"他有他日本版的Ride Sharing"},{"start":2536.59,"end":2537.59,"text":"跟歐美"},{"start":2537.59,"end":2540.59,"text":"特別是像是傳統Uber上"},{"start":2540.59,"end":2543.59,"text":"或者是相關數位平台比較普及的地方的做法"},{"start":2543.59,"end":2545.59,"text":"有一點點不一樣"},{"start":2545.59,"end":2547.59,"text":"因為他很保障他們的計程車業"},{"start":2547.59,"end":2552.59,"text":"所以他就是要求平台要跟合法的計程車業者來合作"},{"start":2552.59,"end":2553.59,"text":"那他們講得這麼空泛"},{"start":2553.59,"end":2556.59,"text":"他們的形態呢又長成什麼樣子呢"},{"start":2557.17,"end":2558.17,"text":"我用美國來講"},{"start":2558.17,"end":2559.17,"text":"美國加州呢"},{"start":2559.17,"end":2562.17,"text":"有五個TNC的Permit Holder"},{"start":2562.17,"end":2564.17,"text":"他有一個許可的持有"},{"start":2564.17,"end":2567.17,"text":"包括全世界最知名的兩大平台"},{"start":2567.17,"end":2569.17,"text":"就是Uber跟Lift之外"},{"start":2569.17,"end":2570.17,"text":"他有一個叫Veo"},{"start":2570.17,"end":2571.17,"text":"一個是Auto"},{"start":2571.17,"end":2572.17,"text":"還有一個是Onward"},{"start":2573.33,"end":2575.33,"text":"可是呢他們的服務呢"},{"start":2575.33,"end":2576.33,"text":"大家仔細看喔"},{"start":2576.33,"end":2579.33,"text":"他的服務跟我們傳統認知的Uber不太一樣"},{"start":2579.33,"end":2581.33,"text":"是第一個Veo"},{"start":2581.33,"end":2584.33,"text":"他是主打這個所謂的共存Ride Sharing"},{"start":2584.33,"end":2586.33,"text":"他在做這些媒合的部分"},{"start":2587.31,"end":2588.31,"text":"那Auto呢"},{"start":2588.31,"end":2591.31,"text":"他其實是比較像是高端商務的接送"},{"start":2592.03,"end":2594.03,"text":"不但他有預約"},{"start":2594.03,"end":2596.03,"text":"而且他自己經營車隊"},{"start":2596.03,"end":2597.03,"text":"這又不一樣喔"},{"start":2597.03,"end":2598.03,"text":"這個角色就更明顯了"},{"start":2598.03,"end":2600.03,"text":"再來是這個Onward"},{"start":2600.03,"end":2603.03,"text":"Onward是基於高齡者或醫療者的"},{"start":2603.03,"end":2608.03,"text":"醫療需求者的這個溫馨接送的一個立即出發的TNC"},{"start":2608.03,"end":2612.03,"text":"所以大概這五家業者在加州"},{"start":2613.39,"end":2614.39,"text":"那在日本呢"},{"start":2614.39,"end":2615.39,"text":"主流"},{"start":2616.99,"end":2618.99,"text":"OK時間好快"},{"start":2618.99,"end":2619.99,"text":"好那我就快一點"},{"start":2620.79,"end":2622.79,"text":"對不起這是倒數時間"},{"start":2622.79,"end":2623.79,"text":"那我就快一點"},{"start":2623.79,"end":2624.79,"text":"直接跳到後面"},{"start":2624.79,"end":2626.79,"text":"相信簡報的大家都有"},{"start":2628.14,"end":2630.14,"text":"我相信短期內還是以修法"},{"start":2630.14,"end":2632.14,"text":"增定平台專章為務實的路線"},{"start":2632.14,"end":2635.14,"text":"同步強化平台責任跟資料的治理"},{"start":2635.14,"end":2638.14,"text":"那他的功能在這個四點"},{"start":2638.14,"end":2639.14,"text":"那請各位參閱"},{"start":2639.14,"end":2641.14,"text":"其實我們台灣呢"},{"start":2641.14,"end":2643.14,"text":"在各國已經調整法制"},{"start":2643.14,"end":2645.14,"text":"回歸這個平台經濟的"},{"start":2645.14,"end":2647.14,"text":"回應平台經濟的挑戰呢"},{"start":2647.14,"end":2650.14,"text":"其實台灣這邊相對來講稍微腳步慢一點"},{"start":2650.14,"end":2651.14,"text":"所以期待呢"},{"start":2651.14,"end":2652.14,"text":"這個議題"},{"start":2652.14,"end":2653.14,"text":"不管是立一個專法"},{"start":2653.14,"end":2656.14,"text":"還是就現有架構來調整"},{"start":2656.14,"end":2659.14,"text":"來管理來擁抱這個數位平台"},{"start":2659.14,"end":2662.14,"text":"都是我們今天台灣發展的當務之急"},{"start":2662.14,"end":2664.14,"text":"不好意思我的步調整理的不清楚"},{"start":2664.14,"end":2667.14,"text":"但是我的資料都在這個投影片上面"},{"start":2667.14,"end":2668.14,"text":"請各位參閱謝謝"},{"start":2671.36,"end":2674.36,"text":"好謝謝我們林大傑副教授的發言"},{"start":2674.36,"end":2676.36,"text":"那教授我們待會還有第二輪發言"},{"start":2676.36,"end":2678.36,"text":"如果要補充可以繼續補充沒關係"},{"start":2678.55,"end":2680.55,"text":"那再接下來下一位是台灣數位平台"},{"start":2680.55,"end":2683.55,"text":"預約接送從業人員公會的李威格理事長"},{"start":2693.18,"end":2696.18,"text":"主席還有各位委員還有各位先進大家好"},{"start":2696.18,"end":2697.18,"text":"我是威爾"},{"start":2697.18,"end":2700.18,"text":"首先我要先謝謝黃委員"},{"start":2700.18,"end":2702.18,"text":"我覺得有一個好的立委"},{"start":2702.18,"end":2704.18,"text":"願意來幫我們試機"},{"start":2704.18,"end":2705.18,"text":"來做這些事情"},{"start":2705.18,"end":2707.18,"text":"我覺得真的是很感謝他"},{"start":2707.18,"end":2708.18,"text":"說一個笑話喔"},{"start":2709.24,"end":2711.24,"text":"常跟家務部溝通很多的事情"},{"start":2711.24,"end":2713.24,"text":"然後我們都跟家務說"},{"start":2713.24,"end":2716.24,"text":"請公務員做一些法規的修改"},{"start":2716.24,"end":2719.24,"text":"其實還不如找立委會比較快一點"},{"start":2719.24,"end":2721.24,"text":"從母法上面去會比較快一點"},{"start":2721.24,"end":2723.24,"text":"所以基本上我們支持"},{"start":2723.24,"end":2726.24,"text":"公務團體這邊支持這一個所謂的"},{"start":2726.24,"end":2728.24,"text":"修法專法的部分"},{"start":2728.24,"end":2729.24,"text":"因為有"},{"start":2729.65,"end":2731.65,"text":"其實會去"},{"start":2731.65,"end":2734.65,"text":"根本上面會去解決很多的事情"},{"start":2734.65,"end":2735.65,"text":"而且最重要的是"},{"start":2735.65,"end":2737.65,"text":"因為它是一個新的樣態"},{"start":2737.65,"end":2740.65,"text":"所以新的樣態在舊有的法規裡面"},{"start":2740.65,"end":2742.65,"text":"公務法的架構下面"},{"start":2742.65,"end":2744.65,"text":"其實它會有一個矛盾點"},{"start":2744.65,"end":2748.65,"text":"就是公務員在做修法的動作的時候"},{"start":2748.65,"end":2750.65,"text":"或者是做一些細則的時候"},{"start":2750.65,"end":2753.65,"text":"其實會被舊有的法規"},{"start":2753.65,"end":2755.65,"text":"或是舊有的管理細則"},{"start":2755.65,"end":2757.65,"text":"去做了一些約束"},{"start":2757.65,"end":2759.65,"text":"跟一些考量"},{"start":2759.65,"end":2762.65,"text":"所以專法的部分我們覺得是好的"},{"start":2762.65,"end":2764.65,"text":"那接下來我就報告我的內容"},{"start":2766.06,"end":2768.06,"text":"麻煩幫我下一個"},{"start":2769.62,"end":2771.62,"text":"我覺得這個專法其實最重要的"},{"start":2771.62,"end":2775.62,"text":"我用一句話來去做最簡單的說明"},{"start":2775.62,"end":2778.62,"text":"就是用一個專法來去終結"},{"start":2778.62,"end":2782.62,"text":"這些國外的資本主義在台灣的"},{"start":2783.93,"end":2784.93,"text":"請死"},{"start":2785.76,"end":2787.76,"text":"各位可以發現一件事情"},{"start":2787.76,"end":2790.76,"text":"不管今天是Uber或是Bot"},{"start":2790.76,"end":2792.76,"text":"或者是未來的所謂的Grep"},{"start":2792.76,"end":2793.76,"text":"其實你會發現"},{"start":2793.76,"end":2796.76,"text":"其實在計程車行業裡面"},{"start":2796.76,"end":2799.76,"text":"跟以前的整體的派遣狀況"},{"start":2799.76,"end":2801.76,"text":"還有所謂的掌權狀況"},{"start":2801.76,"end":2803.76,"text":"已經非常大的不同"},{"start":2803.76,"end":2805.76,"text":"從十年前Uber進來台灣"},{"start":2805.76,"end":2808.76,"text":"從迫害一直到現在"},{"start":2808.76,"end":2810.76,"text":"你會發現一件事情"},{"start":2810.76,"end":2812.76,"text":"他們就是所謂的殖民經濟"},{"start":2812.76,"end":2816.76,"text":"他挾持了他龐大的經濟能力"},{"start":2816.76,"end":2819.76,"text":"然後去改變了一個市場"},{"start":2819.76,"end":2822.76,"text":"甚至於挑戰這個市場上面的法規"},{"start":2822.76,"end":2824.76,"text":"然後一直走到現在"},{"start":2825.36,"end":2826.36,"text":"Uber進來到現在"},{"start":2826.36,"end":2827.36,"text":"包含Bot進來"},{"start":2827.36,"end":2829.36,"text":"包含未來的Grep都會進來"},{"start":2829.36,"end":2831.36,"text":"我覺得在這個時間點我們應該"},{"start":2832.52,"end":2834.52,"text":"長久的這些數位經濟"},{"start":2834.52,"end":2837.52,"text":"他們從一開始用迫害"},{"start":2837.52,"end":2838.52,"text":"然後呢"},{"start":2838.52,"end":2841.52,"text":"有理在傳統的計程車的法規上面"},{"start":2841.52,"end":2844.52,"text":"現在應該我們要透過法的修改"},{"start":2844.52,"end":2847.52,"text":"把它重新這商業模式"},{"start":2847.52,"end":2848.52,"text":"要把它合理化"},{"start":2849.31,"end":2851.31,"text":"最重要的所有的商業模式"},{"start":2852.02,"end":2853.02,"text":"從兩個角度來看"},{"start":2853.02,"end":2855.02,"text":"第一個是消費者的安全"},{"start":2855.02,"end":2856.02,"text":"這是最重要的"},{"start":2856.02,"end":2857.02,"text":"第二個"},{"start":2857.02,"end":2860.02,"text":"駕駛的權益到底在哪裡"},{"start":2860.02,"end":2863.02,"text":"我覺得在計程車這個行業裡面"},{"start":2863.02,"end":2865.02,"text":"這兩個是最重要"},{"start":2865.02,"end":2866.02,"text":"我再強調一次"},{"start":2866.02,"end":2867.02,"text":"消費者的安全"},{"start":2867.02,"end":2868.02,"text":"消費者的權益"},{"start":2868.02,"end":2870.02,"text":"還有駕駛的權益"},{"start":2870.02,"end":2871.02,"text":"好 馬上到我下一頁"},{"start":2872.16,"end":2874.16,"text":"我先讓大家了解一下"},{"start":2874.16,"end":2876.16,"text":"現在計程車的實際狀況"},{"start":2876.68,"end":2878.68,"text":"現在計程車的派遣業者"},{"start":2878.68,"end":2880.68,"text":"在現有的執法上面"},{"start":2880.68,"end":2882.68,"text":"叫做客運服務業申請核准經營辦法"},{"start":2882.68,"end":2883.68,"text":"他做什麼"},{"start":2883.68,"end":2887.68,"text":"他去做管理計程車的派遣業者"},{"start":2887.68,"end":2888.68,"text":"我們稱為車隊"},{"start":2888.68,"end":2890.68,"text":"但是這個法其實說坦白一點"},{"start":2890.68,"end":2893.68,"text":"他只有申請核准經營辦法"},{"start":2893.68,"end":2896.68,"text":"他沒有處罰的條例"},{"start":2896.68,"end":2898.68,"text":"他告訴他我要怎麼申請"},{"start":2898.68,"end":2899.68,"text":"我申請過了"},{"start":2899.68,"end":2900.68,"text":"能不能撤照"},{"start":2901.97,"end":2902.97,"text":"能不能處罰"},{"start":2902.97,"end":2904.97,"text":"基本上有處罰"},{"start":2904.97,"end":2905.97,"text":"但其實對這些車業的業者"},{"start":2905.97,"end":2907.97,"text":"其實根本就不害怕"},{"start":2907.97,"end":2909.97,"text":"那為什麼我把這六個"},{"start":2909.97,"end":2911.97,"text":"六大系統我把它列出來"},{"start":2911.97,"end":2912.97,"text":"因為計程車現在"},{"start":2912.97,"end":2914.97,"text":"我們用所謂的消費者的角度"},{"start":2914.97,"end":2916.97,"text":"來去定義它到底是系統"},{"start":2918.17,"end":2919.17,"text":"還是車隊"},{"start":2919.17,"end":2921.17,"text":"各位可以看左邊的"},{"start":2921.17,"end":2923.17,"text":"55688U-C大都會"},{"start":2923.17,"end":2924.17,"text":"你會發現一件事情"},{"start":2924.17,"end":2926.17,"text":"這個是消費者端"},{"start":2926.17,"end":2928.17,"text":"他在網路上"},{"start":2928.17,"end":2930.17,"text":"他去下載下來的APP"},{"start":2931.4,"end":2934.4,"text":"所以消費者下載這三個APP"},{"start":2934.4,"end":2937.4,"text":"你會發現跟他派遣的車隊"},{"start":2937.4,"end":2938.4,"text":"還有他的形象"},{"start":2938.4,"end":2939.4,"text":"還有他的logo"},{"start":2939.4,"end":2940.4,"text":"都是一模一樣的"},{"start":2940.4,"end":2941.4,"text":"所以他是系統"},{"start":2941.4,"end":2943.4,"text":"他也是車隊"},{"start":2943.4,"end":2945.4,"text":"可是我們來看右手邊的"},{"start":2945.4,"end":2947.4,"text":"消費者下載了Uber,Bot"},{"start":2947.4,"end":2950.4,"text":"甚至於最下面的Light taxi"},{"start":2950.4,"end":2952.4,"text":"他是在Light裡面"},{"start":2952.4,"end":2954.4,"text":"下面去做一個"},{"start":2954.4,"end":2956.4,"text":"Light 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nd":3133.6,"text":"不然你把車開過來嘛"},{"start":3133.6,"end":3134.6,"text":"我吐在你車上"},{"start":3134.6,"end":3135.6,"text":"我跟你1500開"},{"start":3135.6,"end":3136.6,"text":"你要還是不要"},{"start":3136.6,"end":3138.6,"text":"我們沒辦法自主喔"},{"start":3138.6,"end":3139.6,"text":"就他說了算"},{"start":3139.6,"end":3141.6,"text":"那幫我再下一頁"},{"start":3142.51,"end":3143.51,"text":"更扯的是什麼"},{"start":3143.51,"end":3145.51,"text":"這個系統這個殖民經濟"},{"start":3145.51,"end":3146.51,"text":"這些殖民經濟"},{"start":3146.51,"end":3147.51,"text":"不納管的時候"},{"start":3147.51,"end":3149.51,"text":"各位可以看一下我這件事情"},{"start":3149.51,"end":3151.51,"text":"他派遣計程車"},{"start":3151.51,"end":3154.51,"text":"計程車有所謂的運駕"},{"start":3154.51,"end":3157.51,"text":"今天我們司機運駕要調整"},{"start":3157.51,"end":3159.51,"text":"我們要公共會先開完會之後"},{"start":3159.51,"end":3160.51,"text":"提出共同版本"},{"start":3160.51,"end":3163.51,"text":"然後送到地方政府"},{"start":3163.51,"end":3165.51,"text":"地方政府召開費率審查委員會"},{"start":3165.51,"end":3167.51,"text":"委員同意我們通過之後"},{"start":3167.51,"end":3169.51,"text":"我們才可以調整運駕"},{"start":3169.51,"end":3170.51,"text":"可是各位你可以看一下"},{"start":3170.51,"end":3173.51,"text":"這是他跟台北市政府現在在打的行政官司"},{"start":3174.57,"end":3176.57,"text":"Uber什麼時候可以有處理費啊"},{"start":3177.42,"end":3178.42,"text":"他愛怎麼樣就怎麼樣"},{"start":3178.42,"end":3180.42,"text":"以上是我第一次的發言謝謝"},{"start":3183.38,"end":3185.38,"text":"好謝謝理事長"},{"start":3185.44,"end":3186.44,"text":"我們下一位請"},{"start":3186.44,"end":3188.44,"text":"中華大學企業管理學系"},{"start":3188.44,"end":3190.44,"text":"羅士金副教授"},{"start":3225.01,"end":3226.01,"text":"主席"},{"start":3226.01,"end":3228.01,"text":"各位與會的先進大家好"},{"start":3228.01,"end":3231.01,"text":"抱歉我也是臨時收到"},{"start":3231.01,"end":3234.01,"text":"收到這個邀約來做這個報告"},{"start":3234.77,"end":3238.77,"text":"那所以我簡報也是稍微簡略一些"},{"start":3238.77,"end":3240.77,"text":"我就簡單的說明一下"},{"start":3240.77,"end":3245.77,"text":"那我想網際網路預約車輛這個服務"},{"start":3245.77,"end":3247.77,"text":"確實也是一個新興的服務"},{"start":3247.77,"end":3250.77,"text":"那確實可能會有在這個期間"},{"start":3250.77,"end":3252.77,"text":"雖然已經進來很多年了"},{"start":3252.77,"end":3254.77,"text":"但是還是會有很多的這個狀況"},{"start":3254.77,"end":3255.77,"text":"需要做銜接"},{"start":3255.77,"end":3257.77,"text":"那在這個部分呢"},{"start":3258.48,"end":3260.48,"text":"還沒投出來我先稍微口頭說明一下"},{"start":3260.48,"end":3262.48,"text":"就是說在這個部分"},{"start":3263.52,"end":3266.52,"text":"我收集了幾個國家相關的這個法令"},{"start":3266.52,"end":3268.52,"text":"那下一頁"},{"start":3268.52,"end":3270.52,"text":"那我們可以稍微看一下"},{"start":3270.52,"end":3271.52,"text":"就是說第一個"},{"start":3271.52,"end":3274.52,"text":"像美國剛才那個林教授已經提到了"},{"start":3274.52,"end":3277.52,"text":"那新加坡跟英國倫敦事實上"},{"start":3277.52,"end":3280.52,"text":"雖然一個是專法一個是並入現有法規"},{"start":3280.52,"end":3282.52,"text":"但是他基本精神是一樣的"},{"start":3282.52,"end":3285.52,"text":"就是把所謂的網約車跟計程車"},{"start":3285.52,"end":3288.52,"text":"同樣當作是一個服務的行業"},{"start":3288.52,"end":3289.52,"text":"有一個法規在管理"},{"start":3289.52,"end":3291.52,"text":"所以相對來講"},{"start":3291.52,"end":3295.52,"text":"這個是從服務的性質來看"},{"start":3295.52,"end":3297.52,"text":"訂這個法規"},{"start":3297.52,"end":3299.52,"text":"那當然以這個"},{"start":3300.71,"end":3302.71,"text":"目前我收集到的這幾個法規來看"},{"start":3302.71,"end":3304.71,"text":"他的費率基本上就是由市場"},{"start":3305.25,"end":3307.25,"text":"自由決定"},{"start":3307.25,"end":3309.25,"text":"因為基本上其實計程車可以說是"},{"start":3309.25,"end":3312.25,"text":"以目前來講這個費率透明"},{"start":3312.25,"end":3314.25,"text":"就算你在平台上面預約"},{"start":3314.25,"end":3316.25,"text":"你當然也可以看到價錢"},{"start":3316.25,"end":3317.25,"text":"所以基本上"},{"start":3317.76,"end":3320.76,"text":"就是民眾是一個怨打怨挨的問題"},{"start":3320.76,"end":3322.76,"text":"他可以看到他決定要不要"},{"start":3322.76,"end":3325.76,"text":"那目前其實以我從新竹過來"},{"start":3325.76,"end":3326.76,"text":"在我們新竹"},{"start":3327.48,"end":3330.48,"text":"上下班時間是交不到計程車的"},{"start":3330.48,"end":3332.48,"text":"有些時候"},{"start":3333.92,"end":3335.92,"text":"我如果緊急的事情"},{"start":3336.29,"end":3338.29,"text":"貴一點可以讓我插隊"},{"start":3338.29,"end":3339.29,"text":"我會願意"},{"start":3339.29,"end":3341.29,"text":"這個就像迪士尼Land也有"},{"start":3341.29,"end":3343.29,"text":"FastPass這種優先權的"},{"start":3343.29,"end":3347.29,"text":"用一點多餘的費用去買這個優先權"},{"start":3347.29,"end":3349.29,"text":"這個其實還算是合理"},{"start":3349.29,"end":3351.29,"text":"那要不然你就是要等時間"},{"start":3351.29,"end":3353.29,"text":"其實以新竹來講"},{"start":3353.29,"end":3354.29,"text":"出高鐵站"},{"start":3354.29,"end":3356.29,"text":"尖峰時間你至少等半個小時以上"},{"start":3356.29,"end":3358.29,"text":"就是完全沒有車子"},{"start":3358.29,"end":3359.29,"text":"完全沒有車子"},{"start":3359.29,"end":3362.29,"text":"那當然相對的服務義務"},{"start":3362.29,"end":3363.29,"text":"跟平台的責任"},{"start":3363.29,"end":3364.29,"text":"駕駛員的管理"},{"start":3364.29,"end":3366.29,"text":"其實在這些法規裡面"},{"start":3366.29,"end":3368.29,"text":"都有相對應的定義"},{"start":3368.29,"end":3369.29,"text":"好 幫我下顏"},{"start":3369.29,"end":3372.29,"text":"所以從這裡面我們來看"},{"start":3372.29,"end":3376.29,"text":"就是說是不是要有立專法的這個必要"},{"start":3376.29,"end":3379.29,"text":"其實我們從這個公務法底下的"},{"start":3379.29,"end":3381.29,"text":"汽車運輸業管理規則裡面"},{"start":3381.29,"end":3382.29,"text":"我們大概可以看到"},{"start":3382.29,"end":3383.29,"text":"就是多用汽車車"},{"start":3383.29,"end":3384.29,"text":"其實有一些明確的定義"},{"start":3384.29,"end":3387.29,"text":"那當然現在提出來條例的查案"},{"start":3387.29,"end":3388.29,"text":"我們稍微對照一下"},{"start":3388.29,"end":3390.29,"text":"事實上也差不了多少"},{"start":3390.29,"end":3393.29,"text":"那我們往遙遠一點的未來"},{"start":3393.29,"end":3395.29,"text":"其實可能也不用遙遠"},{"start":3395.29,"end":3396.29,"text":"我個人認為10年之內"},{"start":3396.29,"end":3397.29,"text":"我們就可以看得到了"},{"start":3397.29,"end":3400.29,"text":"現在國外也很多所謂的robot taxi"},{"start":3400.29,"end":3402.29,"text":"已經在上路試營運"},{"start":3402.29,"end":3406.29,"text":"那未來會不會有汽車製造商"},{"start":3406.29,"end":3408.29,"text":"在經營計程車"},{"start":3408.29,"end":3409.29,"text":"這是很有可能的"},{"start":3409.29,"end":3410.29,"text":"搞不好還有AI公司"},{"start":3410.29,"end":3414.29,"text":"或者是機器人製造公司"},{"start":3414.29,"end":3416.29,"text":"在經營計程車"},{"start":3416.29,"end":3421.29,"text":"那我們現在把這個條例設定成網際網路平台"},{"start":3421.29,"end":3423.29,"text":"那以後是不是也要有一個"},{"start":3423.29,"end":3426.29,"text":"汽車製造業評這個經營"},{"start":3426.29,"end":3428.29,"text":"或者是AI公司經營"},{"start":3428.29,"end":3431.29,"text":"我想可能你法規定的越多"},{"start":3431.29,"end":3433.29,"text":"漏洞也越多"},{"start":3433.29,"end":3434.29,"text":"說實在的"},{"start":3434.29,"end":3436.29,"text":"還不如是回過頭來"},{"start":3436.29,"end":3438.29,"text":"像剛才新加坡或者是英國的例子"},{"start":3438.29,"end":3443.29,"text":"回歸到這個服務本身來做規範"},{"start":3443.29,"end":3444.29,"text":"那下一頁"},{"start":3446.11,"end":3448.11,"text":"這邊我稍微整理了一下"},{"start":3448.11,"end":3452.11,"text":"像這邊我整理了5個"},{"start":3452.11,"end":3454.11,"text":"目前有經營robot taxi的"},{"start":3454.11,"end":3455.11,"text":"我們可以看到"},{"start":3455.11,"end":3456.11,"text":"像第二個跟第四個"},{"start":3456.11,"end":3458.11,"text":"ROOX跟TESLA"},{"start":3458.11,"end":3461.11,"text":"它就是製造商在經營這個"},{"start":3462.06,"end":3465.06,"text":"那當然它也包含了平台業者"},{"start":3465.06,"end":3466.06,"text":"它也包含了客運業"},{"start":3466.06,"end":3468.06,"text":"那像135"},{"start":3468.06,"end":3470.06,"text":"它其實就是屬於平台"},{"start":3470.06,"end":3471.06,"text":"那屬於平台的部分"},{"start":3471.06,"end":3474.06,"text":"所以確實這個未來可能會"},{"start":3474.06,"end":3477.06,"text":"非常的這個行業別之間"},{"start":3477.06,"end":3480.06,"text":"可能沒辦法分割的這麼詳細"},{"start":3480.06,"end":3482.06,"text":"沒辦法分割的那麼詳細"},{"start":3482.06,"end":3485.06,"text":"所以如果分割的很細"},{"start":3485.06,"end":3486.06,"text":"反而不容易管理"},{"start":3486.06,"end":3490.06,"text":"那回歸到它的服務本質上來看"},{"start":3490.06,"end":3492.06,"text":"可能會相對單純一些"},{"start":3492.06,"end":3495.06,"text":"法規也比較容易規範的完備"},{"start":3495.06,"end":3496.06,"text":"那下一頁"},{"start":3496.77,"end":3497.77,"text":"所以或許"},{"start":3497.77,"end":3499.77,"text":"個人的建議就是可以參考"},{"start":3499.77,"end":3502.77,"text":"像我們現在偏鄉有幸福巴士"},{"start":3502.77,"end":3504.77,"text":"那這邊也可以看到就是其實"},{"start":3504.77,"end":3507.77,"text":"在偏鄉沒有人經營公車的地方"},{"start":3507.77,"end":3511.77,"text":"可以用社會團體或個人來輔導"},{"start":3511.77,"end":3514.77,"text":"協助成立市區客運業"},{"start":3514.77,"end":3516.77,"text":"然後他們來經營這個服務"},{"start":3516.77,"end":3518.77,"text":"那他們就是照著客運業的管"},{"start":3518.77,"end":3521.77,"text":"公車業的管理來納管"},{"start":3521.77,"end":3523.77,"text":"那所以或許經營"},{"start":3523.77,"end":3526.77,"text":"只要是有計程車類型的這種服務"},{"start":3526.77,"end":3528.77,"text":"那或許從這個公路法裡面的"},{"start":3528.77,"end":3530.77,"text":"這個運管規則裡面去做一些"},{"start":3530.77,"end":3533.77,"text":"專章的這個修訂"},{"start":3533.77,"end":3536.77,"text":"或者是擴充"},{"start":3536.77,"end":3538.77,"text":"那同樣的邏輯就是"},{"start":3538.77,"end":3539.77,"text":"輔導他們在國內成立這個"},{"start":3539.77,"end":3541.77,"text":"計程車客運業"},{"start":3541.77,"end":3543.77,"text":"那不管你母公司原來是做什麼的"},{"start":3543.77,"end":3545.77,"text":"只要你提供這樣的服務"},{"start":3545.77,"end":3548.77,"text":"你就受這樣子的法規來管理"},{"start":3548.77,"end":3549.77,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":3549.91,"end":3551.91,"text":"所以就我個人的建議"},{"start":3551.91,"end":3553.91,"text":"是以這個擴充"},{"start":3553.91,"end":3555.91,"text":"或者是完備這個相關的法規"},{"start":3555.91,"end":3556.91,"text":"為優先考量"},{"start":3556.91,"end":3560.91,"text":"就第一個就是如同剛才前面回顧提到的"},{"start":3560.91,"end":3562.91,"text":"就是未來這個變遷的非常快"},{"start":3562.91,"end":3564.91,"text":"可能很快的我們就可以看到"},{"start":3564.91,"end":3567.91,"text":"有這個自駕計程車在路上跑了"},{"start":3567.91,"end":3570.91,"text":"那這個到時候又會有很多"},{"start":3570.91,"end":3573.91,"text":"需要法規修正跟調適的這個地方"},{"start":3573.91,"end":3575.91,"text":"所以還不如就是把這個"},{"start":3576.72,"end":3578.72,"text":"計程車的這個業別"},{"start":3578.72,"end":3579.72,"text":"還有納管的事項"},{"start":3579.72,"end":3583.72,"text":"同時在這個一個既有的法規的專章裡面"},{"start":3583.72,"end":3586.72,"text":"來做規範可能會比較適合一些"},{"start":3586.72,"end":3588.72,"text":"那當然相對的權利義務"},{"start":3588.72,"end":3592.72,"text":"其實是確實是需要在這邊定義"},{"start":3592.72,"end":3594.72,"text":"那至於如同剛才提到"},{"start":3594.72,"end":3596.72,"text":"這個像費率的部分"},{"start":3596.72,"end":3599.72,"text":"其實計程車駕駛要加入"},{"start":3600.4,"end":3602.4,"text":"平台或離開平台"},{"start":3602.4,"end":3604.4,"text":"好像沒有特別的限制"},{"start":3604.4,"end":3606.4,"text":"如果你覺得這個平台不好"},{"start":3606.4,"end":3607.4,"text":"你換一個平台"},{"start":3607.4,"end":3610.4,"text":"好像也很自由"},{"start":3610.4,"end":3613.4,"text":"乘客我也可以隨時的比較"},{"start":3613.4,"end":3615.4,"text":"因為資訊是公開的"},{"start":3615.4,"end":3617.4,"text":"那我願意"},{"start":3617.42,"end":3618.42,"text":"就像我剛才提到的"},{"start":3618.42,"end":3620.42,"text":"我臨時有急事"},{"start":3620.42,"end":3622.42,"text":"你讓我插隊規點好吧"},{"start":3622.42,"end":3624.42,"text":"那我偶爾做一下"},{"start":3624.42,"end":3626.42,"text":"那這反而回過頭來我會思考"},{"start":3626.42,"end":3628.42,"text":"為什麼價錢高我還願意做"},{"start":3628.42,"end":3630.42,"text":"那是供給跟需求的問題"},{"start":3630.42,"end":3633.42,"text":"那這是回歸市場自由經濟的機制"},{"start":3633.42,"end":3636.42,"text":"那以上前見工作大家參考謝謝"},{"start":3639.16,"end":3641.16,"text":"好謝謝羅思金副教授"},{"start":3641.16,"end":3643.16,"text":"我們接下來請"},{"start":3643.16,"end":3645.16,"text":"和太移動服務股份生公司的"},{"start":3645.16,"end":3647.16,"text":"葉俊谷總經理發言"},{"start":3653.94,"end":3655.94,"text":"委員好來各位在座的"},{"start":3659.04,"end":3662.04,"text":"媒體朋友還有各位學者大家好"},{"start":3662.04,"end":3665.04,"text":"那在這邊我直接進入幾個主題"},{"start":3667.29,"end":3668.29,"text":"因為時間有限"},{"start":3668.29,"end":3671.29,"text":"那針對提剛一法律的定位及"},{"start":3671.29,"end":3673.29,"text":"實質控制力的認定"},{"start":3673.29,"end":3676.29,"text":"為落實公平性的監理"},{"start":3676.29,"end":3680.29,"text":"那針對晚季網路媒體科運服務業者"},{"start":3680.54,"end":3684.54,"text":"應如何確立其獨立的法律定位"},{"start":3685.24,"end":3689.24,"text":"及其存資訊媒體業者的界限"},{"start":3689.24,"end":3691.24,"text":"及實質控制力應如何認定"},{"start":3691.24,"end":3693.24,"text":"以防監理的漏洞"},{"start":3694.19,"end":3697.19,"text":"我們身為一個本土的企業"},{"start":3697.19,"end":3700.19,"text":"我們是支持這個立法納管所有的平台"},{"start":3700.19,"end":3703.19,"text":"那包含未申報的平台"},{"start":3703.19,"end":3707.19,"text":"那平台策略義務應盡全責一致原則"},{"start":3707.19,"end":3710.19,"text":"依實際派遣來源定價權"},{"start":3710.83,"end":3713.83,"text":"規則定定與營運控制力"},{"start":3714.29,"end":3715.29,"text":"配置的責任"},{"start":3715.29,"end":3716.29,"text":"核心的原則"},{"start":3716.29,"end":3718.29,"text":"誰掌握派遣"},{"start":3718.59,"end":3722.59,"text":"誰定價及規則就應該接受相應的監理"},{"start":3724.26,"end":3725.26,"text":"那提剛二"},{"start":3725.26,"end":3729.26,"text":"國外平台在地登記與代表的責任"},{"start":3730.79,"end":3732.79,"text":"為防堵跨國平台企業"},{"start":3732.79,"end":3736.79,"text":"規避我國司法追溯與租稅的管轄"},{"start":3736.79,"end":3738.79,"text":"是否應強制國外平台業者"},{"start":3738.79,"end":3741.79,"text":"與中華民國境內辦理分公司登記"},{"start":3742.53,"end":3747.53,"text":"並要求指派代表全責處理相關法律及稅務事項"},{"start":3749.07,"end":3751.07,"text":"我們一樣也支持"},{"start":3751.68,"end":3755.68,"text":"強制國外平台業者與台灣辦理分公司登記"},{"start":3757.82,"end":3764.82,"text":"因指定在地代表處理法務、稅務、行政、調查及消費爭議"},{"start":3765.7,"end":3767.7,"text":"平台可以跨國經營"},{"start":3767.7,"end":3769.7,"text":"但不能跨國卸責"},{"start":3770.58,"end":3771.58,"text":"那提剛三"},{"start":3774.8,"end":3783.8,"text":"針對民生議題及司機相對營運成本"},{"start":3784.13,"end":3786.13,"text":"這也算是公共運輸的一環"},{"start":3786.13,"end":3791.13,"text":"那針對記憶費的基準及動態計較與抽成"},{"start":3791.67,"end":3793.67,"text":"針對平台利用"},{"start":3793.48,"end":3795.48,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":3795.27,"end":3800.27,"text":"數據以及一些實質決定價格與價值接待的機會"},{"start":3800.27,"end":3805.27,"text":"在法治上應如何規範平台雙向公開計費的基準"},{"start":3806.49,"end":3808.49,"text":"東京"},{"start":3807.59,"end":3810.59,"text":"計價之演算法原則及抽成比例"},{"start":3810.93,"end":3815.93,"text":"例如對於天災、惡劣天候、交通尖峰時段"},{"start":3815.93,"end":3821.93,"text":"應是否授權主管機關公告暫停動態計較機制以防止惡意的烘台"},{"start":3823.11,"end":3830.11,"text":"我們建議中央主管機關訂立全國一致的動態計價最高以及最低的倍率"},{"start":3830.91,"end":3832.91,"text":"以及司機抽成的比例"},{"start":3834.33,"end":3840.33,"text":"平台計費基準需經政府審核價格可反應供需"},{"start":3840.33,"end":3843.33,"text":"但需受中央上下限的規範"},{"start":3844,"end":3849,"text":"3.不建議主議列舉暫停條件,例如天候、尖峰認定"},{"start":3849.61,"end":3854.61,"text":"產生執行的爭議,因為我們已經訂了上下限的規範"},{"start":3858.36,"end":3863.36,"text":"那針對提供市,事故行按責任與駕駛管理的義務"},{"start":3864.49,"end":3871.49,"text":"在重大交通事故與刑事案件中,為保障乘客安全與駕駛的權益"},{"start":3871.49,"end":3878.49,"text":"是否因明定平台業者視為實質僱主,並負連帶賠償損害責任"},{"start":3879.71,"end":3885.71,"text":"並針對平台對駕駛人之實質審查的義務,定期交易訓練"},{"start":3885.47,"end":3892.47,"text":"以及欲不可抗力因素之中斷行程通報與安置的措施,應如何規範"},{"start":3893.28,"end":3895.28,"text":"事故與刑案不宜"},{"start":3895.41,"end":3901.41,"text":"概括市平台撤退為實質僱主,亦不予要求負無上限連帶的責任"},{"start":3901.41,"end":3911.41,"text":"政府可要求業者,落實資格審查、教育訓練、停權以及異常通報及資料保存的程序"},{"start":3912.67,"end":3918.67,"text":"若因駕駛個人行為造成事故或犯罪,應由駕駛個人依法負責"},{"start":3919,"end":3924,"text":"並由政府依法刑事裁處及民事責任"},{"start":3927.7,"end":3929.7,"text":"針對第五個提綱"},{"start":3931.16,"end":3933.16,"text":"服務捐及產業轉型的基金"},{"start":3934.52,"end":3942.52,"text":"基於平衡法理與協助傳統計程車產業數位的轉型,是否應向平台業者徵收數位服務捐"},{"start":3942.52,"end":3954.52,"text":"並設置計程車產業轉型基金,其徵收的基準相關的罰則設計以及基金之具體運作規劃應如何設計較為妥適"},{"start":3955.89,"end":3959.89,"text":"我們是不贊成另行徵收數位服務捐"},{"start":3959.89,"end":3968.89,"text":"因為現行在台合法登記的車隊以及平台業者,我們都依法已經繳交營業稅及營鎖稅等"},{"start":3969.32,"end":3972.32,"text":"若需設置產業轉型或安全部"},{"start":3972.81,"end":3977.81,"text":"補助基金建議政府依現行既有稅收,撥補補助"},{"start":3980.42,"end":3984.42,"text":"提綱六,抽成比例上限與加成費用的基數"},{"start":3985.35,"end":3989.35,"text":"為保障平台駕駛之合理勞務所得,是否應"},{"start":3989.99,"end":3996.99,"text":"與本法明定平台業者之抽成比例上限,另針對業間加成惡劣天候"},{"start":3997.38,"end":4002.38,"text":"如下雨、颱風、加成等非常態、性質額外課印費用"},{"start":4002.38,"end":4007.38,"text":"是否應明文排除於平台抽成基數之外,全數歸屬駕駛"},{"start":4008.3,"end":4013.3,"text":"建議訂定平台抽成比例的上下限,一併都已經考量這些"},{"start":4013.3,"end":4018.3,"text":"颱風、業間加成或天候,以保障駕駛合理車資"},{"start":4018.3,"end":4021.3,"text":"所得並提升費率的透明度"},{"start":4022.79,"end":4026.79,"text":"第二,業間加成、惡劣天候、巔峰等非常態加成"},{"start":4026.79,"end":4030.79,"text":"不建議排除於平台抽成基數之外"},{"start":4031.25,"end":4036.25,"text":"三,應平台與派遣客服、系統維運等有營運成本"},{"start":4037.09,"end":4041.09,"text":"加成費用,乃應作為抽成基數"},{"start":4041.56,"end":4044.56,"text":"但需受抽成上限的規範"},{"start":4044.77,"end":4049.77,"text":"我們台灣計程車的產業,從計程車客運業"},{"start":4050.77,"end":4054.77,"text":"派遣媒體是媒體服務業"},{"start":4054.77,"end":4057.77,"text":"很單純我們就是希望把"},{"start":4058.7,"end":4060.7,"text":"媒體資訊服務業"},{"start":4061.2,"end":4063.2,"text":"別入"},{"start":4062.5,"end":4064.5,"text":"資訊客運服務業"},{"start":4065.25,"end":4067.25,"text":"其實就可以納管"},{"start":4067.48,"end":4069.48,"text":"以上是我們的意見,謝謝"},{"start":4072.39,"end":4074.39,"text":"謝謝業總經理"},{"start":4078.8,"end":4079.8,"text":"我們下一位請"},{"start":4079.8,"end":4081.8,"text":"屏東縣計程車客運商業統一工會"},{"start":4081.8,"end":4083.8,"text":"林佩莉理事長發言"},{"start":4091.46,"end":4093.46,"text":"主席、各位委員"},{"start":4093.57,"end":4096.57,"text":"交通部及各位主管機關代表、各位委員先進大家好"},{"start":4096.57,"end":4099.57,"text":"我是屏東縣計程車客運商業統一工會理事長林佩莉"},{"start":4100.62,"end":4102.62,"text":"本會今天所提出的意見"},{"start":4102.62,"end":4104.62,"text":"其實可以濃縮成一句話"},{"start":4104.62,"end":4106.62,"text":"說為科技可以改變轎車方式"},{"start":4106.62,"end":4108.62,"text":"但是不能改變法律上的"},{"start":4108.62,"end":4110.62,"text":"權力責任與應該相符的基本原則"},{"start":4110.62,"end":4112.62,"text":"我們並不是反對平台"},{"start":4112.62,"end":4115.62,"text":"也不是反對科技,更不反對產業的數位化"},{"start":4115.62,"end":4117.62,"text":"相反的我們認為計程車產業"},{"start":4117.62,"end":4119.62,"text":"一定要持續的數位化"},{"start":4119.62,"end":4121.62,"text":"但是問題在於過去數十年來"},{"start":4121.62,"end":4123.62,"text":"科技進步非常快"},{"start":4123.62,"end":4125.62,"text":"法律上的責任跟結構卻沒有同步的調整"},{"start":4125.62,"end":4127.62,"text":"所以我們今天真正要處理的"},{"start":4127.62,"end":4129.62,"text":"不只是要不要管平台"},{"start":4129.62,"end":4132.62,"text":"而是平台已經掌握了運輸交易的核心能力"},{"start":4132.62,"end":4134.62,"text":"它到底該承擔多少責任"},{"start":4134.62,"end":4136.62,"text":"這才是今天這份報告的主軸"},{"start":4140.55,"end":4142.55,"text":"目前最大的問題"},{"start":4142.55,"end":4144.55,"text":"是權力跟責任已經不在同一個人身上"},{"start":4144.55,"end":4146.55,"text":"今天平台掌握什麼"},{"start":4146.55,"end":4150.55,"text":"掌握乘客的入口、訂單、派單、價格、金流、抽成、駕駛評價"},{"start":4150.55,"end":4153.55,"text":"甚至可以決定一個司機看不看得到訂單"},{"start":4153.55,"end":4155.55,"text":"最後也可以直接把帳號停掉"},{"start":4155.55,"end":4157.55,"text":"可是另外一邊呢"},{"start":4157.55,"end":4159.55,"text":"真正去買車的是司機跟車行"},{"start":4159.55,"end":4162.55,"text":"真正承擔影音牌照的是車行合作社跟個人車行"},{"start":4164.22,"end":4167.22,"text":"真正要驗車、要投保、要確認駕駛資格、事故處理"},{"start":4167.22,"end":4169.22,"text":"面對消費者爭議的也是第一線"},{"start":4169.22,"end":4171.22,"text":"因此現在最奇怪的地方就是"},{"start":4171.22,"end":4174.22,"text":"最有控制權的一方法律責任反而可以最輕"},{"start":4174.22,"end":4176.22,"text":"最沒有溢價能力的一方"},{"start":4176.22,"end":4178.22,"text":"最後卻承擔影音風險"},{"start":4178.22,"end":4181.22,"text":"這也是我們書面意見一開始就提出的問題"},{"start":4181.22,"end":4183.22,"text":"平台取得訂單、數據跟收益"},{"start":4183.22,"end":4187.22,"text":"但是駕駛跟車輛所屬的影音組織卻要承擔實際的影音風險"},{"start":4187.22,"end":4189.22,"text":"所以這一次的立法"},{"start":4189.22,"end":4192.22,"text":"我們認為第一件事情不是先討論平台叫什麼名字"},{"start":4193.22,"end":4195.22,"text":"而是先把這失衡的天秤拉回來"},{"start":4197.43,"end":4199.43,"text":"接下來我們就從"},{"start":4199.91,"end":4201.91,"text":"常碰到的法律核心定位來說明"},{"start":4201.91,"end":4205.91,"text":"平台到底是質詢服務業還是已經實質參與客運服務"},{"start":4207.49,"end":4209.49,"text":"我們認為不能只看契約名稱"},{"start":4209.49,"end":4211.49,"text":"要看他到底做了什麼"},{"start":4211.49,"end":4213.49,"text":"如果一家公司只是幫合法的車隊寫app"},{"start":4213.49,"end":4216.49,"text":"做雲端、做治安、做維護、伺服器"},{"start":4216.49,"end":4219.49,"text":"那當然可以說他是資訊科技服務"},{"start":4219.49,"end":4222.49,"text":"但是如果他已經開始接受乘客的叫車"},{"start":4222.49,"end":4224.49,"text":"決定訂單給哪些司機看得到"},{"start":4224.49,"end":4228.49,"text":"影響價格、代收車資、拆帳抽成、管理帳號"},{"start":4228.49,"end":4230.49,"text":"甚至決定司機能不能繼續運營"},{"start":4230.49,"end":4231.49,"text":"那這家公司做的事"},{"start":4231.49,"end":4233.49,"text":"他就已經不是實質提供資訊而已"},{"start":4233.49,"end":4236.49,"text":"他正在組織一場運輸交易"},{"start":4237.38,"end":4238.38,"text":"現行的規範"},{"start":4238.38,"end":4242.38,"text":"其實已經把乘客接受需求指派特定計程車"},{"start":4242.38,"end":4244.38,"text":"或者是提供多輛車輛"},{"start":4244.38,"end":4245.38,"text":"提供乘客選擇"},{"start":4245.38,"end":4247.38,"text":"前往在客納入派遣的概念"},{"start":4247.38,"end":4249.38,"text":"所以今天我們不能因為派車的方式"},{"start":4249.38,"end":4251.38,"text":"從無線電改成app"},{"start":4251.38,"end":4253.38,"text":"法律性質就完全改變"},{"start":4253.38,"end":4254.38,"text":"科技它只是一個工具"},{"start":4254.38,"end":4257.38,"text":"不甘變成它規避監理特許的外衣"},{"start":4260.46,"end":4262.46,"text":"哪"},{"start":4261.78,"end":4263.78,"text":"我們希望提供一個比較實際的判斷方式"},{"start":4263.78,"end":4264.78,"text":"來看一下"},{"start":4264.78,"end":4266.78,"text":"不要問他到底是自稱什麼"},{"start":4266.78,"end":4268.78,"text":"要看他有沒有這些權利"},{"start":4268.78,"end":4270.78,"text":"第一他有沒有派單權"},{"start":4270.78,"end":4272.78,"text":"他能不能決定哪些司機看得到訂單"},{"start":4272.78,"end":4273.78,"text":"他有沒有訂價權"},{"start":4273.78,"end":4276.78,"text":"他能不能決定實質影響車資、動態計價"},{"start":4276.78,"end":4278.78,"text":"折扣跟駕駛報酬"},{"start":4278.78,"end":4280.78,"text":"第三他有沒有經流權"},{"start":4280.78,"end":4284.78,"text":"他可不可以依接單率、取消率、平價、降派甚至停權"},{"start":4284.78,"end":4286.78,"text":"第五他沒有運控職權"},{"start":4286.78,"end":4289.78,"text":"例如說他的車輛、服裝、標示、服務等"},{"start":4289.78,"end":4291.78,"text":"如果這些權利都在平台手上"},{"start":4291.78,"end":4293.78,"text":"我們很難再說他只是一個中立的資訊管道"},{"start":4293.78,"end":4297.78,"text":"今天平台說免費、公益、贊助、醫療接送"},{"start":4297.78,"end":4299.78,"text":"這個都不是法律判斷的終點"},{"start":4299.78,"end":4301.78,"text":"因為免費不等於沒有經營"},{"start":4301.78,"end":4304.78,"text":"沒有直接收車資不等於他沒有經濟利益"},{"start":4304.78,"end":4307.78,"text":"數據、流量、會員、廣告、第三人付款"},{"start":4307.78,"end":4311.78,"text":"甚至用戶規模本身都可能形成商業價值"},{"start":4313.33,"end":4316.33,"text":"所以我們主張看實質不看名稱"},{"start":4320.69,"end":4322.69,"text":"那動態計價的問題"},{"start":4322.69,"end":4324.69,"text":"這部分我們要先講清楚"},{"start":4324.69,"end":4326.69,"text":"我們不反對動態計價"},{"start":4326.69,"end":4330.69,"text":"下大雨、上下班、尖峰、演唱會擅長大量車車的時候"},{"start":4330.69,"end":4332.69,"text":"價格適度的提高"},{"start":4332.69,"end":4334.69,"text":"本來就可以吸引更多的司機上線"},{"start":4334.69,"end":4336.69,"text":"那市場調節有它存在的合理性"},{"start":4336.69,"end":4338.69,"text":"但是計程車它不是一般商品"},{"start":4338.69,"end":4342.69,"text":"計程車長期具有去供車捷運、鐵路及偏鄉"},{"start":4342.69,"end":4344.69,"text":"公共運輸不足的功能"},{"start":4344.69,"end":4346.69,"text":"本質上具有富大、中運輸性質"},{"start":4346.69,"end":4349.69,"text":"所以地方政府為什麼要開運駕審議委員會"},{"start":4349.69,"end":4352.69,"text":"因為它同時具備考量、燃料成本、車輛成本"},{"start":4352.69,"end":4355.69,"text":"駕駛合理所得、乘客負擔能力及公眾利益"},{"start":4355.69,"end":4360.69,"text":"如果今天政府花了那麼多時間找業者、專家、消費者"},{"start":4360.69,"end":4362.69,"text":"跟共同審立一個合理的運駕"},{"start":4362.69,"end":4364.69,"text":"結果一個APP、一套演算法"},{"start":4364.69,"end":4366.69,"text":"就可以在完全沒有上線的狀況下"},{"start":4366.69,"end":4369.69,"text":"把價格調到三倍、五倍、甚至無上限"},{"start":4369.69,"end":4373.69,"text":"那我要問地方政府的運駕審查會議還有什麼意義"},{"start":4373.69,"end":4376.69,"text":"整套制度就會被平台架空"},{"start":4376.69,"end":4378.69,"text":"所以我們提出兩倍的建議"},{"start":4378.69,"end":4380.69,"text":"不是要平台每一趟都收兩倍"},{"start":4380.69,"end":4382.69,"text":"是建立一個市場的護欄"},{"start":4382.69,"end":4384.69,"text":"上線由公共監理決定"},{"start":4385.91,"end":4387.91,"text":"那上線以下讓市場做調節"},{"start":4387.91,"end":4391.91,"text":"我覺得這個才是政府監理跟市場機制兩端的平衡"},{"start":4395.99,"end":4399.99,"text":"再來就是我們講司機最有感的收費問題"},{"start":4399.99,"end":4400.99,"text":"就是"},{"start":4401.55,"end":4405.55,"text":"如果法律最後只寫說平台抽成不能超過15%"},{"start":4405.55,"end":4407.55,"text":"我認為這個條文非常容易被規避"},{"start":4407.55,"end":4409.55,"text":"平台可以說我沒有抽15%"},{"start":4409.55,"end":4411.55,"text":"我只有抽10%"},{"start":4411.55,"end":4415.55,"text":"另外再說派減費、系統費、月租費、帳號費、設備費、會員費"},{"start":4415.55,"end":4416.55,"text":"還是帳戶處理費"},{"start":4416.55,"end":4419.55,"text":"甚至還可以透過關係切再收一次"},{"start":4419.55,"end":4421.55,"text":"如果我們意義上是10%"},{"start":4421.55,"end":4425.55,"text":"司機實際負擔的可能是18%或者是20%還是更多"},{"start":4425.55,"end":4428.55,"text":"我們提出了實質總費用率的概念"},{"start":4428.55,"end":4429.55,"text":"就是像銀行貸款一樣"},{"start":4429.55,"end":4431.55,"text":"你不能告訴我你利率2%"},{"start":4431.55,"end":4434.55,"text":"然後你把開辦費、手續費都藏在後面"},{"start":4434.55,"end":4435.55,"text":"平台也是一樣"},{"start":4435.55,"end":4437.55,"text":"我不要管你把錢交出什麼"},{"start":4437.55,"end":4439.55,"text":"就算駕駛要取得"},{"start":4440.57,"end":4442.57,"text":"完成結算這筆訂單"},{"start":4442.57,"end":4444.57,"text":"我們要知道說他到底總共付出了多少錢"},{"start":4444.57,"end":4446.57,"text":"我覺得這才是真正的費用上限"},{"start":4448.18,"end":4450.18,"text":"至於我們提出的15%"},{"start":4450.18,"end":4452.18,"text":"我要再次說明這個是政策討論的起點"},{"start":4452.18,"end":4455.18,"text":"最後是10%、12%、15%還是其他合理的比例"},{"start":4455.18,"end":4457.18,"text":"我覺得都可以研究"},{"start":4457.18,"end":4459.18,"text":"但是我們覺得一定要設有總上限"},{"start":4463.33,"end":4466.33,"text":"再來我們覺得平台哪些錢不該收"},{"start":4466.33,"end":4467.33,"text":"我認為"},{"start":4468.19,"end":4470.19,"text":"台風加成、好雨加成、夜間加成"},{"start":4470.19,"end":4471.19,"text":"為什麼政府給加成"},{"start":4471.19,"end":4474.19,"text":"是因為司機在特定的期間、特定的天候"},{"start":4474.19,"end":4476.19,"text":"承擔比較高的工作成本與風險"},{"start":4476.19,"end":4479.19,"text":"那為什麼平台可以從這個風險裡再抽一筆"},{"start":4479.19,"end":4480.19,"text":"例如說小費"},{"start":4480.19,"end":4482.19,"text":"那是乘客對司機的肯定"},{"start":4482.19,"end":4484.19,"text":"勁勞卡、愛心卡、政府補助"},{"start":4484.19,"end":4485.19,"text":"也都有特定的政策目的"},{"start":4485.19,"end":4487.19,"text":"這些不是平台創造的收入"},{"start":4487.19,"end":4489.19,"text":"所以我們主張應該全額歸駕駛人"},{"start":4489.19,"end":4492.19,"text":"另外一個問題就是刷卡電子支付的金流費"},{"start":4492.19,"end":4495.19,"text":"今天平台提供信用卡不是服務司機"},{"start":4495.19,"end":4497.19,"text":"他同時也增加乘客便利"},{"start":4497.19,"end":4498.19,"text":"取得企業客戶訂單"},{"start":4498.19,"end":4500.19,"text":"政府不要按醫療院所訂單"},{"start":4500.19,"end":4502.19,"text":"並掌握完整的消費數據"},{"start":4502.19,"end":4505.19,"text":"所以平台既然已經向駕駛收取平台服務費"},{"start":4505.19,"end":4507.19,"text":"就不應該因為乘客刷卡"},{"start":4507.19,"end":4509.19,"text":"然後再從司機的收支裡扣第二次"},{"start":4509.19,"end":4512.19,"text":"我們覺得一筆交易不能兩頭收費"},{"start":4513.86,"end":4515.86,"text":"那最後一個我這邊"},{"start":4515.86,"end":4517.86,"text":"可能後面還有我先講快一點"},{"start":4517.86,"end":4519.86,"text":"這一頁我覺得是整個制度的"},{"start":4519.86,"end":4521.86,"text":"最常被應該看見的問題"},{"start":4521.86,"end":4522.86,"text":"平台掌握什麼"},{"start":4522.86,"end":4523.86,"text":"乘客是平台找來的"},{"start":4523.86,"end":4525.86,"text":"訂單是平台找來的"},{"start":4525.86,"end":4527.86,"text":"價格也是平台決定影響的"},{"start":4527.86,"end":4528.86,"text":"錢也是平台收的"},{"start":4528.86,"end":4531.86,"text":"那司機帳號也是平台管理的"},{"start":4531.86,"end":4532.86,"text":"可是發生重大事故的以後"},{"start":4532.86,"end":4534.86,"text":"平台卻往往可以回到一句說"},{"start":4534.86,"end":4536.86,"text":"我只是資訊服務業"},{"start":4537.55,"end":4539.55,"text":"那接下來真正處理事情的是誰"},{"start":4539.55,"end":4541.55,"text":"是駕駛是車行是合作社"},{"start":4541.55,"end":4543.55,"text":"牌照車輛管理是車行的責任"},{"start":4543.55,"end":4545.55,"text":"駕駛資格要車行確認"},{"start":4545.55,"end":4547.55,"text":"保險要車行通保跟續保"},{"start":4547.55,"end":4549.55,"text":"事故發生以後也是往往是車行去處理現場"},{"start":4549.55,"end":4551.55,"text":"聯絡乘客家屬保險公司"},{"start":4551.55,"end":4554.55,"text":"甚至後續的消費爭議跟行政調節"},{"start":4554.55,"end":4555.55,"text":"如果保險不夠"},{"start":4555.55,"end":4557.55,"text":"那最後的賠償責任"},{"start":4557.55,"end":4559.55,"text":"還是回到駕駛跟車輛管理的一方"},{"start":4559.55,"end":4561.55,"text":"所以最現實的問題是"},{"start":4561.55,"end":4563.55,"text":"如果平台掌控整筆交易"},{"start":4563.55,"end":4566.55,"text":"也從每一筆訂單取得收益"},{"start":4566.55,"end":4568.55,"text":"如果發生事故的時候"},{"start":4568.55,"end":4570.55,"text":"進入球場甚至訴訟的時候"},{"start":4570.55,"end":4572.55,"text":"真正在第一線承擔責任的"},{"start":4572.55,"end":4574.55,"text":"最往往還是駕駛跟車行"},{"start":4575.69,"end":4577.69,"text":"這就是我們覺得權力不對的"},{"start":4577.69,"end":4579.69,"text":"以上報告"},{"start":4582.77,"end":4584.77,"text":"謝謝我們李市長"},{"start":4584.77,"end":4586.77,"text":"那麼下一位請"},{"start":4586.77,"end":4588.77,"text":"中華民國計程車客運服務全國聯合會"},{"start":4588.77,"end":4590.77,"text":"李越哲李氏"},{"start":4600.53,"end":4601.53,"text":"主席黃超偉"},{"start":4601.53,"end":4603.53,"text":"各位委員各位長官"},{"start":4603.53,"end":4605.53,"text":"產業先進大家早"},{"start":4605.72,"end":4607.72,"text":"我是中華民國計程車客運商業服務同事公會"},{"start":4607.72,"end":4609.72,"text":"全國聯合會"},{"start":4609.72,"end":4611.72,"text":"李氏李越哲"},{"start":4611.72,"end":4613.72,"text":"在這邊第一次發言"},{"start":4613.72,"end":4615.72,"text":"我們的計程車客運服務業全國聯合會"},{"start":4615.72,"end":4619.72,"text":"是今年5月份才獲得內政部核准成立"},{"start":4619.72,"end":4621.72,"text":"所以大家對我們的公會比較陌生"},{"start":4621.72,"end":4623.72,"text":"但我們這個行業"},{"start":4623.72,"end":4625.72,"text":"另外一個大家比較熟悉"},{"start":4625.72,"end":4627.72,"text":"稱呼是派遣車隊"},{"start":4628.73,"end":4630.73,"text":"例如大家耳熟能詳的55688"},{"start":4630.73,"end":4632.73,"text":"台灣大車隊"},{"start":4632.73,"end":4634.73,"text":"Li-go 優喜或者Uber"},{"start":4634.73,"end":4636.73,"text":"都是我們這個行業的知名代表"},{"start":4636.73,"end":4638.73,"text":"這也是一般乘客"},{"start":4638.73,"end":4640.73,"text":"或外界對於計程車最熟悉的一部分"},{"start":4642.61,"end":4646.61,"text":"因此今天這個法案所涉及到的計程車媒合平台法規"},{"start":4647.79,"end":4651.79,"text":"其實完全就是在規範我們這個行業的法律"},{"start":4652.38,"end":4654.38,"text":"所以作為直接"},{"start":4654.71,"end":4656.71,"text":"這個草案規範的產業代表"},{"start":4656.71,"end":4660.71,"text":"我們對於今天整個法案及討論提供"},{"start":4660.71,"end":4662.71,"text":"也特別提出完整的書面意見資料"},{"start":4664.42,"end":4668.42,"text":"就法案目的原本所想要解決的問題對象"},{"start":4669.38,"end":4672.38,"text":"及來龍去脈也做了清楚的說明與陳述"},{"start":4672.38,"end":4676.38,"text":"請各位委員、長官及業界先進參閱"},{"start":4678.34,"end":4682.34,"text":"也期待透過專業而清楚的行業發展分析及說明"},{"start":4682.34,"end":4687.34,"text":"能夠幫助委員及政府部門更加聚焦問題核心"},{"start":4688.72,"end":4690.72,"text":"共同尋求最佳方"},{"start":4690.72,"end":4695.72,"text":"我們全聯會也會針對這個議題持續匯集意見"},{"start":4695.72,"end":4697.72,"text":"並擬具產業共識"},{"start":4697.72,"end":4701.72,"text":"與各位先進共同來面對及處理這個議題"},{"start":4701.72,"end":4703.72,"text":"謝謝大家,第一次發言"},{"start":4708.17,"end":4710.17,"text":"好,謝謝我們李約哲理事"},{"start":4710.17,"end":4714.17,"text":"我們接下來請博特台灣服務股份有限公司的"},{"start":4714.17,"end":4716.17,"text":"曾獻宏總經理發言"},{"start":4723.66,"end":4725.66,"text":"好"},{"start":4726.14,"end":4728.14,"text":"召會黃委員"},{"start":4728.14,"end":4730.14,"text":"各位與會的部會長官"},{"start":4730.14,"end":4732.14,"text":"還有各位先進的專家"},{"start":4732.14,"end":4735.14,"text":"大家好,我是博特台灣區的總經理"},{"start":4735.14,"end":4736.14,"text":"曾獻宏"},{"start":4736.14,"end":4739.14,"text":"首先謝謝黃委員今天召開這個公聽會"},{"start":4739.14,"end":4744.14,"text":"讓產業政府、老公以及學界能夠"},{"start":4744.14,"end":4748.14,"text":"一起來討論教車產業未來的發展方向"},{"start":4748.34,"end":4752.34,"text":"首先必須藉由博特的立場來釐清"},{"start":4752.34,"end":4757.34,"text":"我們支持現在我們釐清教車平台的責任"},{"start":4757.34,"end":4761.34,"text":"同時也認同運輸隨著數位的發展"},{"start":4761.34,"end":4764.34,"text":"現行制度確實有重新檢視的必要"},{"start":4764.34,"end":4768.34,"text":"我們今天希望提出一個核心的原則是"},{"start":4768.34,"end":4771.34,"text":"責任應該和實際的權限和權責相符"},{"start":4771.34,"end":4773.34,"text":"如果今天要增加平台的責任"},{"start":4773.34,"end":4777.34,"text":"同時應該檢視平台所具備的管理權限"},{"start":4777.34,"end":4779.34,"text":"以及現在整體的監理架構"},{"start":4779.34,"end":4783.34,"text":"針對今天的六項主要的討論議題"},{"start":4783.34,"end":4786.34,"text":"我這邊簡要的代表Bow"},{"start":4786.34,"end":4789.34,"text":"提出不同的Bow這邊的看法"},{"start":4789.34,"end":4793.34,"text":"首先第一樣是針對平台的獨立法律的定位"},{"start":4793.34,"end":4797.34,"text":"首先我們支持透過功能性的監理"},{"start":4797.34,"end":4800.34,"text":"讓不同市場的參與者依照實際上的功能"},{"start":4800.34,"end":4803.34,"text":"來進行以及承擔相對應的責任"},{"start":4803.34,"end":4807.34,"text":"不過目前包含Bow在內的多數平台"},{"start":4807.34,"end":4810.34,"text":"是依照現行的計程車的客運服務業"},{"start":4810.34,"end":4815.34,"text":"以及車隊業者提供這樣的運輸服務"},{"start":4815.34,"end":4817.34,"text":"以及現行的公務法"},{"start":4817.34,"end":4821.34,"text":"跟計程車客運服務業申請核准辦法架構"},{"start":4821.34,"end":4825.34,"text":"車隊本身已經具有管理駕駛車輛"},{"start":4825.34,"end":4827.34,"text":"以及營運管理相關的法定義務"},{"start":4827.34,"end":4831.34,"text":"因此我們建議除了新法在定義平台業者以外"},{"start":4831.34,"end":4833.34,"text":"其實應該也要明確的定義"},{"start":4833.34,"end":4837.34,"text":"在車隊這個角色並且區分跟平台之間"},{"start":4837.34,"end":4841.34,"text":"以及駕駛之間個體的主體性還有權責跟責任"},{"start":4841.34,"end":4845.34,"text":"所以這樣子才能夠明確的來達到功能性的監理"},{"start":4845.34,"end":4849.34,"text":"避免現行跟未來的新法產生制度上的疊加"},{"start":4849.34,"end":4855.34,"text":"而產生責任重複或者是主體負責的部分不明確的問題"},{"start":4855.34,"end":4858.34,"text":"那第二項是針對境外平台"},{"start":4858.34,"end":4860.34,"text":"平台司法以及租稅的管轄"},{"start":4860.34,"end":4865.34,"text":"BOW在這個議題上原則上是支持這樣的提議的"},{"start":4865.34,"end":4868.34,"text":"因為BOW目前在台灣已經完成公司的登記"},{"start":4868.34,"end":4870.34,"text":"那也遵循我國相關的法律"},{"start":4870.34,"end":4872.34,"text":"也履行相關的納稅義務"},{"start":4872.34,"end":4875.34,"text":"所以我們認為只要是在台灣市場提供服務"},{"start":4875.34,"end":4878.34,"text":"就應該遵循明確的法律以及租稅的規範"},{"start":4878.34,"end":4881.34,"text":"也建立比較公平的競爭環境跟基礎"},{"start":4882.26,"end":4887.26,"text":"那第三點是針對演算法以及費率透明以及動態加價的部分"},{"start":4887.26,"end":4891.26,"text":"BOW原則上支持資訊的透明"},{"start":4891.26,"end":4894.26,"text":"也在乘客叫車前也提供了"},{"start":4895,"end":4900,"text":"其實我們也已經清楚了預估車資的揭露以及相關的費用"},{"start":4900,"end":4904,"text":"對於駕駛端來說其實我們也事先的揭露了平台的服務費"},{"start":4904,"end":4909,"text":"以及動態加價適用的相關的條文及費率的範圍"},{"start":4909,"end":4914,"text":"所以我們建議在法規上面採取監理為導向結果的方式"},{"start":4914,"end":4919,"text":"對消費者而言其實消費者最重視跟在意的是"},{"start":4919,"end":4922,"text":"搭車之前到底要付多少錢"},{"start":4922,"end":4924,"text":"費用會怎麼樣的受到影響"},{"start":4924,"end":4927,"text":"至於演算法及涉及平台核心營運的機制"},{"start":4927,"end":4931,"text":"我們可以依法向主管機構提供及揭露"},{"start":4931,"end":4936,"text":"但是我們希望在這部分由主管機關來付相關的商業保密的義務"},{"start":4936,"end":4938,"text":"不宜全面的公開"},{"start":4938,"end":4942,"text":"那對於重大災害或政府緊急公告的事件的部分"},{"start":4942,"end":4947,"text":"這個議題上我們原則上支持主管機關設定動態的上限"},{"start":4947,"end":4953,"text":"也允許基本車資可以作為兩倍的作為一個討論的基礎"},{"start":4953,"end":4955,"text":"那至於一般費率及重大調整"},{"start":4955,"end":4959,"text":"我們建議還是維持就是採備查制度"},{"start":4959,"end":4961,"text":"而非逐案事前的核准"},{"start":4961,"end":4966,"text":"以同時保護消費者以及供需市場目前現行的效率"},{"start":4966,"end":4969,"text":"那第四點也是我們希望委員特別關注的議題"},{"start":4969,"end":4972,"text":"就是平台責任跟駕駛的管理"},{"start":4972,"end":4975,"text":"那如果現在的草案是將"},{"start":4975.83,"end":4977.83,"text":"駕駛直接試為"},{"start":4977.83,"end":4979.83,"text":"平台直接試為直接雇主的話"},{"start":4979.83,"end":4982.83,"text":"要求平台來扯單這個雇主的法律責任"},{"start":4982.83,"end":4986.83,"text":"卻沒有同時賦予平台的相關的對應管理權限的話"},{"start":4986.83,"end":4990.83,"text":"可能會造成管理跟能力上面的相互不符的狀況"},{"start":4990.83,"end":4992.83,"text":"所以目前以現行制度來說"},{"start":4992.83,"end":4996.83,"text":"平台並沒有跟駕駛直接建立契約關係"},{"start":4996.83,"end":5002.83,"text":"目前車輛駕駛管理都是由計程車業者派遣車隊與駕駛支先所組成的"},{"start":5002.83,"end":5008.83,"text":"因此我們建議相關的權責跟過失的原則來說"},{"start":5008.83,"end":5013.83,"text":"還是回歸到平台駕駛以及車隊本身就現在所掌握的權責"},{"start":5013.83,"end":5016.83,"text":"及違反的法定義務來相對的負責"},{"start":5016.83,"end":5023.83,"text":"那例如說平台可以來確認駕駛的這些相關的文件的有效性"},{"start":5023.83,"end":5026.83,"text":"那車隊維持這個教育訓練"},{"start":5026.83,"end":5032.83,"text":"那平台可以提供這樣的科技以及相關的數據來提供必要的協助"},{"start":5034.13,"end":5036.13,"text":"那在重大事故方面的話"},{"start":5036.13,"end":5041.13,"text":"我們可以仿照歐盟的方式來向政府提供相關資訊的整合"},{"start":5041.13,"end":5044.13,"text":"在第一時間的時候回報相關的事件"},{"start":5044.13,"end":5051.13,"text":"由司機在第一現場提供協助車隊局中來處理現行法律的事故處理"},{"start":5051.13,"end":5054.13,"text":"既可以保障乘客又可以執行真正相關的制度"},{"start":5054.13,"end":5056.13,"text":"關於第五點的產業基金"},{"start":5056.13,"end":5060.13,"text":"我們還是針對這點也的話不予以支持"},{"start":5060.13,"end":5067.13,"text":"由於計程車對話計程車由2017年實施至今已經經歷了相當程度的轉型"},{"start":5067.13,"end":5071.13,"text":"所以我們認為實際上課增這個數位服務券"},{"start":5071.13,"end":5074.13,"text":"實際上的成本可能會反映到駕駛跟乘客的車子上"},{"start":5074.13,"end":5078.13,"text":"反而影響了原本要受業團體跟原意"},{"start":5078.13,"end":5082.13,"text":"所以我們認為與其增訂這個額外的這個費用"},{"start":5082.13,"end":5086.13,"text":"不如依照我們先前面提到的功能性的監理原則"},{"start":5086.13,"end":5090.13,"text":"讓平台然後車隊以及派遣業者一同納入這個法案"},{"start":5090.13,"end":5092.13,"text":"然後提升整體的安全標準"},{"start":5092.13,"end":5098.13,"text":"然後BOW也非常願意提供在國際市場上的一些實際上的經驗跟資源"},{"start":5098.13,"end":5103.13,"text":"最後一點是關於平台抽成的上限跟駕駛保障的收入"},{"start":5103.13,"end":5106.13,"text":"原則上BOW不支持以法律明定"},{"start":5108.6,"end":5112.6,"text":"我們認同駕駛的收入應該受到合理的保障"},{"start":5112.6,"end":5116.6,"text":"但是我們認為更有效的辦法是提高整體的透明資訊"},{"start":5116.6,"end":5120.6,"text":"以及增加駕駛本身每位駕駛在路上接案的效率"},{"start":5120.6,"end":5124.6,"text":"而不是透過法案的方式去介入商業定價"},{"start":5125.74,"end":5132.74,"text":"那目前以BOW來說已經明確的揭露了在平台服務費的抽成以及預估的收入"},{"start":5132.74,"end":5135.74,"text":"那基本上駕駛在加入或者是接案之前都可以"},{"start":5135.74,"end":5138.74,"text":"針對他的接案情形有基礎的了解"},{"start":5138.74,"end":5142.74,"text":"更重要的事情我們是認為目前我們應該去檢討現行"},{"start":5142.74,"end":5145.74,"text":"在整個計程車產業已經非常普遍的現象"},{"start":5145.74,"end":5148.74,"text":"就是一車一車對這樣的限制"},{"start":5148.74,"end":5151.74,"text":"讓駕駛能夠合法的跨平台接單"},{"start":5151.74,"end":5154.74,"text":"駕駛可以自由的不同的選擇不同的平台"},{"start":5154.74,"end":5157.74,"text":"他可以去增加他的案源跟收入的來源"},{"start":5157.74,"end":5160.74,"text":"同時也可以促進平台之間的一些良性競爭"},{"start":5160.74,"end":5164.74,"text":"最後我想建議強調BOW這次修法最核心的建議是"},{"start":5164.74,"end":5165.74,"text":"我們支持監理"},{"start":5165.74,"end":5167.74,"text":"支持資訊透明"},{"start":5167.74,"end":5170.74,"text":"支持維繫乘客的安全跟駕駛的保障"},{"start":5170.74,"end":5174.74,"text":"但是一個好的制度應該做到選擇清楚責任清楚"},{"start":5174.74,"end":5176.74,"text":"還有維持公平競爭"},{"start":5176.74,"end":5180.74,"text":"如果接下來法案要求平台承擔更多的相關的運輸責任的話"},{"start":5180.74,"end":5185.74,"text":"同時應該賦予平台更多的相關的管理權限以及經營的權限"},{"start":5185.74,"end":5188.74,"text":"並且檢討現行一車一制度的限制"},{"start":5188.74,"end":5192.74,"text":"讓駕駛朋友可以自由選擇的平台跟車隊"},{"start":5192.74,"end":5197.74,"text":"也是符合文件所提出的責任與權利的相互對應的制度方向"},{"start":5197.74,"end":5200.74,"text":"最後謝謝主席也謝謝大家"},{"start":5203.84,"end":5205.84,"text":"好謝謝我們曾慶紅總經理"},{"start":5205.84,"end":5207.84,"text":"那我們下一位我們請"},{"start":5207.84,"end":5211.84,"text":"優步福爾摩沙股份量的郵件公司的馬培治公共政策總監發言"},{"start":5216.43,"end":5218.43,"text":"謝謝主席還有"},{"start":5218.43,"end":5220.43,"text":"還有各位先進"},{"start":5220.43,"end":5222.43,"text":"我是代表優步福爾摩沙公司"},{"start":5222.43,"end":5224.43,"text":"畢竟馬是這樣子"},{"start":5224.43,"end":5227.43,"text":"非常感謝主席今天就是舉辦了一個這樣的公聽會"},{"start":5227.43,"end":5229.43,"text":"然後一起來檢討"},{"start":5229.43,"end":5231.43,"text":"還有就是能來跟大家做一個討論"},{"start":5231.43,"end":5236.43,"text":"就是到底台灣需不需要一個針對一個網際網路的一個"},{"start":5236.43,"end":5240.43,"text":"媒合的客運服務業的一個特殊的一個專法的特殊的管理條例"},{"start":5240.43,"end":5242.43,"text":"那我這邊來跟大家分享一下"},{"start":5242.43,"end":5244.43,"text":"就是從優步Uber的角度"},{"start":5244.43,"end":5247.43,"text":"我們對目前的這個大方向的一些想法"},{"start":5247.43,"end":5253.43,"text":"那首先呢這個我們其實在想的這件事情今天討論很多其實來自於一個很重要的原因是"},{"start":5253.43,"end":5258.43,"text":"到底一個我們在過去這個產業裡面其實分成很多不同的角色"},{"start":5258.43,"end":5265.43,"text":"從這個駕駛人司機到乘客到這個負責管理車輛的這個車行"},{"start":5265.43,"end":5268.43,"text":"然後到負責派遣的這個車隊"},{"start":5268.43,"end":5273.43,"text":"然後到這個最近的這十來年Uber進入台灣剛好是13年的時間"},{"start":5273.43,"end":5277.43,"text":"而在事實上這種透過不同的形式去做派遣"},{"start":5277.43,"end":5281.43,"text":"這種網際網路或者是其他公司派遣其實更早就已經存在"},{"start":5281.43,"end":5288.43,"text":"那有沒有需要針對一種特別的這種派遣的行為再做一個多更多更多層次的監管"},{"start":5288.43,"end":5290.43,"text":"我覺得這是一個今天討論的重點"},{"start":5290.43,"end":5296.43,"text":"其實呢我們一直在回來是思考的事情是當我們要去透過設立一個專門的法律"},{"start":5296.43,"end":5299.43,"text":"去做這些相關的監管的時候自然要回來理解"},{"start":5299.43,"end":5300.43,"text":"就是我們監管的這個企圖"},{"start":5300.43,"end":5302.43,"text":"我們希望達成什麼樣的目標"},{"start":5302.43,"end":5306.43,"text":"然後呢專法一個特別的法律是不是一個最合適的手段"},{"start":5306.43,"end":5311.43,"text":"那如果我們回來看到就是今天公立會的一些相關的說明可以理解"},{"start":5311.43,"end":5316.43,"text":"就是說發起公立會不管是委員或者是可能來陳情的這些代表"},{"start":5316.43,"end":5320.43,"text":"可能認為目前的監管對平台這一方可能是有不利的地方"},{"start":5320.43,"end":5321.43,"text":"那我覺得這個是可以理解的"},{"start":5321.43,"end":5326.43,"text":"因為的確從不管是剛剛提到其實台灣成立多元計程車的法規"},{"start":5326.43,"end":5330.43,"text":"到Uber正式在2019年加入多元計程車的這個行列"},{"start":5330.43,"end":5335.43,"text":"其實以來到現在的其實2016年其實已經是六到七年的時間"},{"start":5335.43,"end":5339.43,"text":"那的確這裡面的大家看到也有不同的其他的業者"},{"start":5339.43,"end":5342.43,"text":"或者是你也可以看到呢台灣既有的這些派遣業者"},{"start":5342.43,"end":5345.43,"text":"所謂的計程車客運服務業這個車隊呢"},{"start":5345.43,"end":5347.43,"text":"他其實也開始嘗試做一些不同的分離"},{"start":5347.43,"end":5352.43,"text":"比如說他不見得透過單一車隊的方式來營運他的業務"},{"start":5352.43,"end":5356.43,"text":"他可能也把他的APP和他的車隊的業務去做一個分離"},{"start":5356.43,"end":5358.43,"text":"同時服務不同的車隊"},{"start":5358.43,"end":5361.43,"text":"所以看到其實在實務上面產業上面的發展"},{"start":5361.43,"end":5363.43,"text":"是有一個多層次的發展"},{"start":5363.43,"end":5366.43,"text":"所以我們回來呢Uber對需不需要有這個法律"},{"start":5366.43,"end":5368.43,"text":"其實我們目前沒有一個堅定的立場"},{"start":5368.43,"end":5371.43,"text":"我們要回來檢討是現行的法規是不是足夠管理"},{"start":5371.43,"end":5375.43,"text":"或現行的法規有沒有可能做適當的微調"},{"start":5375.43,"end":5377.43,"text":"就能夠達到這個法規監理的目的"},{"start":5377.43,"end":5380.43,"text":"還是說他的管理手段一定是要透過一個專法"},{"start":5380.43,"end":5382.43,"text":"我覺得這個是有討論的空間的"},{"start":5382.43,"end":5383.43,"text":"然後再來呢"},{"start":5383.43,"end":5385.43,"text":"那就會回來到那我們這個法規的監管"},{"start":5385.43,"end":5387.43,"text":"到底要管什麼東西"},{"start":5387.43,"end":5390.43,"text":"剛提到非常多的項目包含可能是定價"},{"start":5390.43,"end":5392.43,"text":"包含可能是資訊流"},{"start":5392.43,"end":5394.43,"text":"包含可能是不是平台應該要負相應的責任"},{"start":5394.43,"end":5396.43,"text":"那其實我覺得繞回來看"},{"start":5396.43,"end":5399.43,"text":"如果看到現在現行的台灣任何一個平台"},{"start":5399.43,"end":5402.43,"text":"是沒有辦法獨立的去做任何派遣業務的"},{"start":5402.43,"end":5406.43,"text":"而不然他是直接違反目前我們的台灣的法規"},{"start":5406.43,"end":5408.43,"text":"所以目前的主要的平台他的合作"},{"start":5408.43,"end":5410.43,"text":"或者甚至是本身就已經有車隊"},{"start":5410.43,"end":5412.43,"text":"他在長出他的獨立的這個APP"},{"start":5412.43,"end":5414.43,"text":"他也都是要透過跟不同的車隊"},{"start":5414.43,"end":5417.43,"text":"換句話說現在主要的監管主體"},{"start":5417.43,"end":5419.43,"text":"的確是在車隊上面"},{"start":5419.43,"end":5421.43,"text":"那我大概聽到一個聲音是"},{"start":5421.43,"end":5423.43,"text":"大家對於譬如說資訊流的掌控"},{"start":5423.43,"end":5424.43,"text":"對於這個價格的掌控"},{"start":5424.43,"end":5426.43,"text":"感覺需要對平台有更多的監理"},{"start":5426.43,"end":5428.43,"text":"那目前為什麼會有這個狀況"},{"start":5428.43,"end":5431.43,"text":"如果說監理的範圍已經在車隊上面"},{"start":5431.43,"end":5433.43,"text":"那為什麼大家會想到來管平台"},{"start":5433.43,"end":5435.43,"text":"其實一個很重要的原因是因為"},{"start":5435.43,"end":5438.43,"text":"車隊都是和平台透過司法的契約的方式"},{"start":5438.43,"end":5443.43,"text":"將他一部分的管理的這個權限委託給平台"},{"start":5443.43,"end":5444.43,"text":"來待為執行"},{"start":5444.43,"end":5447.43,"text":"或者是經過他們內部的合約的討論之後"},{"start":5447.43,"end":5448.43,"text":"來去擬定的"},{"start":5448.43,"end":5451.43,"text":"換句話說其實在現在的監理範圍裡面"},{"start":5451.43,"end":5453.43,"text":"這件事情是已經做得到的"},{"start":5453.43,"end":5455.43,"text":"只是大家在看的時候會覺得"},{"start":5455.43,"end":5459.43,"text":"這個法規上的監管主體其實好像是車隊"},{"start":5459.43,"end":5461.43,"text":"但事實上背後車隊必須和平台"},{"start":5461.43,"end":5464.43,"text":"一起來做相對的責任的負責"},{"start":5464.43,"end":5467.43,"text":"那換句話說如果是在實際上是這個樣子"},{"start":5467.43,"end":5469.43,"text":"那大家期待看到的是實質的管理"},{"start":5469.43,"end":5473.43,"text":"比如說我是在心態上或者是我在情感上"},{"start":5473.43,"end":5476.43,"text":"我認為我要看到平台在某些事件發生的時候"},{"start":5476.43,"end":5478.43,"text":"需要受到處罰"},{"start":5478.43,"end":5480.43,"text":"還是是其他的原因我覺得這個需要去釐清"},{"start":5480.43,"end":5483.43,"text":"就是換句話說就是我們目前的管理"},{"start":5483.43,"end":5485.43,"text":"是真的有到管不到管不動"},{"start":5485.43,"end":5488.43,"text":"還是其實是比較是在情感上"},{"start":5488.43,"end":5490.43,"text":"我們希望看到更進一步"},{"start":5490.43,"end":5491.43,"text":"那我覺得這個東西釐清了"},{"start":5491.43,"end":5493.43,"text":"所以更有這個"},{"start":5493.43,"end":5494.43,"text":"更能夠回來確認"},{"start":5494.43,"end":5497.43,"text":"那到底我們是不是需要一個專門的特殊的法律"},{"start":5497.43,"end":5499.43,"text":"來去做這個相關的規管"},{"start":5500.44,"end":5503.44,"text":"那麼再來關於這個裡面提到"},{"start":5503.44,"end":5506.44,"text":"我就回到這個討論提剛的第二點"},{"start":5506.44,"end":5508.44,"text":"其實快速平台其實跟鋼鐵未業者是一樣的"},{"start":5508.44,"end":5510.44,"text":"目前Uber從2022年開始"},{"start":5510.44,"end":5514.44,"text":"其實已經全部都是有落地的公司來做經營"},{"start":5514.44,"end":5517.44,"text":"對台灣的稅務相關管理員都是在台灣進行"},{"start":5517.44,"end":5519.44,"text":"所以我覺得沒有這個問題"},{"start":5519.44,"end":5521.44,"text":"但是未來會不會有其他的企業"},{"start":5521.44,"end":5523.44,"text":"比如說剛剛有一位老師提特別提到"},{"start":5523.44,"end":5525.44,"text":"我覺得如果我們真的需要一個"},{"start":5525.44,"end":5527.44,"text":"更專門的法去看這件事情的時候"},{"start":5527.44,"end":5531.44,"text":"未來就當這個台灣也許沒有那麼快"},{"start":5531.44,"end":5533.44,"text":"開放這個自駕"},{"start":5533.44,"end":5535.44,"text":"這已經在市場上特斯拉明天立刻可以轉成"},{"start":5535.44,"end":5537.44,"text":"Robotaxi在街上跑的時候"},{"start":5537.44,"end":5539.44,"text":"它到底要適用的是誰"},{"start":5539.44,"end":5540.44,"text":"它的管理的主體是誰"},{"start":5540.44,"end":5543.44,"text":"到底執行派遣的是這些車的持有者的個人"},{"start":5543.44,"end":5545.44,"text":"還是這個Tesla的公司"},{"start":5545.44,"end":5547.44,"text":"這個未來都有很多更長遠的東西"},{"start":5547.44,"end":5549.44,"text":"其實可以放進去考量"},{"start":5549.44,"end":5551.44,"text":"那其實換句話說我們對於這個平台企業"},{"start":5551.44,"end":5554.44,"text":"其實是需要有國內的主體去經營"},{"start":5554.44,"end":5556.44,"text":"我覺得這是完全同意"},{"start":5556.44,"end":5558.44,"text":"而且我們已經在做的"},{"start":5558.44,"end":5560.44,"text":"那麼再來所謂的第三點"},{"start":5560.44,"end":5564.44,"text":"就是平台的這個計費的這個基準動態計價等等"},{"start":5564.44,"end":5567.44,"text":"我其實跟大家分享一下現行的法規的做法"},{"start":5567.44,"end":5571.44,"text":"其實目前關於這個平台的動態計價的上限"},{"start":5571.44,"end":5572.44,"text":"法規是有規範的"},{"start":5572.44,"end":5574.44,"text":"是有各個地方政府他們會去公告"},{"start":5574.44,"end":5577.44,"text":"在這個地方的動態計價的上限"},{"start":5577.44,"end":5578.44,"text":"所以我舉個例子"},{"start":5578.44,"end":5579.44,"text":"以Uber平台為例"},{"start":5579.44,"end":5582.44,"text":"在某一些根本是不准你有上限的這個縣市"},{"start":5582.44,"end":5584.44,"text":"我們其實是根本沒有動態計價"},{"start":5584.44,"end":5586.44,"text":"的這個實際的營運上面"},{"start":5586.44,"end":5589.44,"text":"那在某一些有這個營運上限的城市"},{"start":5589.44,"end":5591.44,"text":"我們也會因應它的規定"},{"start":5591.44,"end":5594.44,"text":"那的確我們也有縣市是沒有這個營運上限的"},{"start":5594.44,"end":5596.44,"text":"那我們其實也會在內規上面"},{"start":5596.44,"end":5599.44,"text":"去有一個實際的動態計價的上限的調整"},{"start":5599.44,"end":5601.44,"text":"那我覺得這個東西要繞回來"},{"start":5601.44,"end":5602.44,"text":"其實我剛剛也聽到幾個"},{"start":5602.44,"end":5603.44,"text":"不管是代表業者"},{"start":5603.44,"end":5605.44,"text":"或是其實都提到一個很重要的重點"},{"start":5605.44,"end":5607.44,"text":"是說這個中規是回來是"},{"start":5607.44,"end":5609.44,"text":"大家不會反對這個動態計價的"},{"start":5609.44,"end":5612.44,"text":"這個由市場來穩定供需的這個狀況"},{"start":5612.44,"end":5613.44,"text":"大家更關心的是"},{"start":5614.34,"end":5618.34,"text":"這個動態計價在這個特殊急難危機的情況發生的時候"},{"start":5618.34,"end":5621.34,"text":"它需不需要應不應該被啟動或被管理"},{"start":5621.34,"end":5623.34,"text":"我覺得這個是可以討論"},{"start":5623.34,"end":5626.34,"text":"而且我覺得是值得更細的去把這些條件訂出來"},{"start":5626.34,"end":5629.34,"text":"我覺得商業平台也會樂意的去配合"},{"start":5629.34,"end":5632.34,"text":"然後再來這個所謂的這個第四點"},{"start":5632.34,"end":5635.34,"text":"這個實質僱主連帶培養責任這個狀況"},{"start":5635.34,"end":5638.34,"text":"其實我覺得繞回來就是計程車的這個從業的人員"},{"start":5638.34,"end":5642.34,"text":"我們的駕駛們他到底是不希望被當成是一個員工"},{"start":5642.34,"end":5643.34,"text":"來被管理"},{"start":5643.34,"end":5645.34,"text":"今天如果你要求一個產業"},{"start":5645.34,"end":5648.34,"text":"他必須要提供這個從從業人員"},{"start":5648.34,"end":5650.34,"text":"等同於勞基法的保障"},{"start":5650.34,"end":5653.34,"text":"且僱主要對於員工的行為負連帶保障"},{"start":5653.34,"end":5655.34,"text":"通常其實也就是他必須要這個"},{"start":5655.34,"end":5658.34,"text":"這個駕駛必須要連帶的負擔受僱人"},{"start":5658.34,"end":5660.34,"text":"也就是勞基法裡面的這個規定"},{"start":5660.34,"end":5662.34,"text":"換句話說從今天開始"},{"start":5662.34,"end":5664.34,"text":"所有的這個駕駛"},{"start":5664.34,"end":5667.34,"text":"他不能夠去挑選他的訂單"},{"start":5667.34,"end":5669.34,"text":"這個平台派給他必須要上下班打卡時間"},{"start":5669.34,"end":5673.34,"text":"我相信以目前對這麼多年的台灣的駕駛的文化裡面"},{"start":5673.34,"end":5675.34,"text":"大家就是不會被接受"},{"start":5675.34,"end":5678.34,"text":"但是事實上這個相關的損害賠償"},{"start":5678.34,"end":5680.34,"text":"或者是車隊跟平台怎麼樣去"},{"start":5680.34,"end":5682.34,"text":"更加強這樣的責任"},{"start":5682.34,"end":5684.34,"text":"不管是透過保險或是其他的方式"},{"start":5684.34,"end":5687.34,"text":"這個其實目前的法規裡面已經有相應的規定"},{"start":5687.34,"end":5689.34,"text":"如果大家認為有不足的地方"},{"start":5689.34,"end":5692.34,"text":"這些我相信主管機關都能夠很快速的去做一些"},{"start":5692.34,"end":5694.34,"text":"政策上的調整"},{"start":5694.34,"end":5696.34,"text":"再來在於這個管理基金的這個部分"},{"start":5696.34,"end":5698.34,"text":"基本上我們是反對的"},{"start":5698.34,"end":5700.34,"text":"最後一個我其實就是"},{"start":5700.34,"end":5702.34,"text":"這個認為這個抽成上限的規範"},{"start":5702.34,"end":5705.34,"text":"我覺得適合用這個市場的機制來做最後的決定"},{"start":5705.34,"end":5707.34,"text":"因為過去這幾年來"},{"start":5707.34,"end":5710.34,"text":"台灣的計程車的司機其實是越來越多"},{"start":5710.34,"end":5712.34,"text":"如果有抽成不合理的狀況"},{"start":5712.34,"end":5713.34,"text":"市場不會是這樣的反應"},{"start":5713.34,"end":5715.34,"text":"不好意思超時謝謝大家"},{"start":5718.93,"end":5720.93,"text":"好謝謝馬培斯總監"},{"start":5720.93,"end":5722.93,"text":"那在下一位發現前我跟大家宣告一下"},{"start":5722.93,"end":5725.93,"text":"如果想要發言第二輪的學者專家"},{"start":5725.93,"end":5727.93,"text":"可以現在來主題台登記發言"},{"start":5727.93,"end":5732.93,"text":"那照過第二輪發言單每位大概大約限時是三分鐘左右"},{"start":5733.23,"end":5734.23,"text":"那我們下一位請這個"},{"start":5734.23,"end":5739.23,"text":"逢甲大學文化與社會創新數字學程的侯聖宗教授發言"},{"start":5750.47,"end":5752.47,"text":"主席還有各位代表"},{"start":5752.47,"end":5754.47,"text":"還有先進大家好"},{"start":5754.47,"end":5757.47,"text":"我是逢甲大學社會創新研究所的侯聖宗"},{"start":5757.47,"end":5760.47,"text":"我想在今天談這六大議題"},{"start":5760.47,"end":5762.47,"text":"我想先抽到上面"},{"start":5762.47,"end":5765.47,"text":"因為我在社會創新研究所服務"},{"start":5765.47,"end":5768.47,"text":"所以我特別看的是交通的社會性"},{"start":5768.47,"end":5773.47,"text":"所以我待會要發言的可能有一個大主軸就是沒有交通沒有生活"},{"start":5773.47,"end":5775.47,"text":"所以當我們這邊在談"},{"start":5775.47,"end":5777.47,"text":"交通委員會談一些法制的時候"},{"start":5777.47,"end":5782.47,"text":"其實上位的面向是整個台灣的社會發展會是怎麼改變"},{"start":5782.47,"end":5785.47,"text":"那台灣現在有三大的一個主軸的社會發展"},{"start":5785.47,"end":5786.47,"text":"第一個是高齡化"},{"start":5786.47,"end":5788.47,"text":"第二個是少子化"},{"start":5788.47,"end":5791.47,"text":"第三個是因為少子所帶的偏鄉的弱化"},{"start":5791.47,"end":5794.47,"text":"這三件事情大概在未來十年"},{"start":5794.47,"end":5796.47,"text":"台灣一定要面對"},{"start":5796.47,"end":5801.47,"text":"那交通是一個很好解決社會問題的一個可能的solution"},{"start":5801.47,"end":5803.47,"text":"所以接下來我就跟大家分享一下"},{"start":5803.47,"end":5806.47,"text":"從一個總體環境去看產業"},{"start":5806.47,"end":5809.47,"text":"那回過頭來看台灣的計程車產業的狀態"},{"start":5809.47,"end":5814.47,"text":"我們必須說台灣計程車產業面對三個很特殊的全球的情境"},{"start":5814.47,"end":5816.47,"text":"是全世界很少有的"},{"start":5816.47,"end":5820.47,"text":"第一個是我們其實有非常強烈的個體戶的一種"},{"start":5820.47,"end":5823.47,"text":"所謂的非受雇型的產業的形態"},{"start":5823.47,"end":5826.47,"text":"而且還分三種個體還有車行還有合作社"},{"start":5826.47,"end":5830.47,"text":"所以它是一個世界上高度複雜的一種產業結構"},{"start":5830.47,"end":5835.47,"text":"那第二個是我們台灣在106年跟108年"},{"start":5835.47,"end":5838.47,"text":"紛紛通過了計程車的多元計程車客運服務業"},{"start":5838.47,"end":5840.47,"text":"還通過了所謂的Uber條款"},{"start":5840.47,"end":5843.47,"text":"所以其實台灣已經走進一個中間路線"},{"start":5843.47,"end":5846.47,"text":"我們既不是平台也不是傳統的計程車"},{"start":5846.47,"end":5848.47,"text":"我們是條中間路線"},{"start":5848.47,"end":5853.47,"text":"這十年我們在驗證這個中間路線是不是符合台灣"},{"start":5853.47,"end":5856.47,"text":"初步的結論我認為是成功的"},{"start":5856.47,"end":5859.47,"text":"是成功的就是中間路線在台灣帶來很多的"},{"start":5859.47,"end":5861.47,"text":"由下而上的改變"},{"start":5861.47,"end":5864.47,"text":"那也引起了所謂的產業的一個轉型"},{"start":5864.47,"end":5867.47,"text":"好這第二個第三個我想要講的是"},{"start":5867.47,"end":5869.47,"text":"台灣的勞動者就是司機"},{"start":5869.47,"end":5872.47,"text":"他的所得是非常的脆弱的"},{"start":5872.47,"end":5877.47,"text":"因為勞動者他的所有的所得都是一趟一趟去接出來的"},{"start":5877.47,"end":5880.47,"text":"所以回到所有的政策應該回到勞工的立場"},{"start":5880.47,"end":5882.47,"text":"他到底因為這政策有沒有受益"},{"start":5882.47,"end":5886.47,"text":"再往上去看這些聘僱勞工的"},{"start":5886.47,"end":5889.47,"text":"不管是車行合作社或者個體戶或者平台"},{"start":5889.47,"end":5891.47,"text":"或者媒合的這些車隊"},{"start":5891.47,"end":5893.47,"text":"他們在這個架構之下"},{"start":5893.47,"end":5897.47,"text":"他們怎麼樣去最大化勞動者的利益跟福祉"},{"start":5897.47,"end":5901.47,"text":"同時兼顧我剛剛講的社會的三個面向的改變"},{"start":5901.47,"end":5904.47,"text":"我想在這樣的兩個總體跟一個產業結構"},{"start":5904.47,"end":5906.47,"text":"我們就可以來論述"},{"start":5906.47,"end":5908.47,"text":"接下來我要跟各位一起分享的"},{"start":5908.47,"end":5911.47,"text":"我們最近其實在國科會裡面有個計畫"},{"start":5911.47,"end":5913.47,"text":"我們剛好在處理這個議題"},{"start":5913.47,"end":5917.47,"text":"那五大平台有很多平台加入我們這樣的聯盟"},{"start":5917.47,"end":5920.47,"text":"其實我站在一個學術中立者"},{"start":5920.47,"end":5924.47,"text":"我認為其實我們不是為了車隊來立法"},{"start":5924.47,"end":5927.47,"text":"而是為了平台責任來思考"},{"start":5927.47,"end":5931.47,"text":"怎麼讓他進入管制的一個體系裡面"},{"start":5931.47,"end":5934.47,"text":"然後引導產業升級跟社會的福祉化"},{"start":5935.46,"end":5937.46,"text":"在這個架構之下"},{"start":5937.46,"end":5939.46,"text":"雖然今天有六大議題"},{"start":5939.46,"end":5942.46,"text":"但我認為其實我們要討論是三件事"},{"start":5942.46,"end":5945.46,"text":"第一個是實質的管制控制要怎麼做"},{"start":5945.46,"end":5947.46,"text":"第二個要管什麼"},{"start":5947.46,"end":5949.46,"text":"管資料還是管派遣"},{"start":5949.46,"end":5951.46,"text":"還是管責任還是管事故"},{"start":5951.46,"end":5955.46,"text":"最後一個是怎麼把今天的討論從交通委員會"},{"start":5955.46,"end":5957.46,"text":"拉到一個公共服務的系統"},{"start":5957.46,"end":5960.46,"text":"來思考台灣未來整體社會的需要"},{"start":5960.48,"end":5962.48,"text":"所以雖然有六大議題"},{"start":5962.48,"end":5964.48,"text":"但我把它歸納成三個大的一個項目"},{"start":5964.48,"end":5967.48,"text":"第一個是平台的主體責任性是誰"},{"start":5967.48,"end":5971.48,"text":"第二個是價格跟所得的透明性要怎麼樣去設計"},{"start":5971.48,"end":5973.48,"text":"第三個是安全跟公共轉型"},{"start":5973.48,"end":5976.48,"text":"要怎麼樣來思考跟推動"},{"start":5976.48,"end":5978.48,"text":"那以下就針對這三個一起來看一下"},{"start":5978.48,"end":5981.48,"text":"第一個我認為就算要立法"},{"start":5981.48,"end":5982.48,"text":"其實應該要去"},{"start":5983.16,"end":5986.16,"text":"把平台的責任加以去分級"},{"start":5986.16,"end":5989.16,"text":"而不是用聘僱跟所謂的非僱主"},{"start":5989.16,"end":5992.16,"text":"這樣的一個二級的二元論來思考"},{"start":5992.16,"end":5997.16,"text":"那其中幾個所謂的判斷標準我有提出書面資料"},{"start":5997.16,"end":6001.16,"text":"我去調查了全世界16個法律的這個國家"},{"start":6001.16,"end":6003.16,"text":"他們紛紛是從不同的立法的角度"},{"start":6003.16,"end":6005.16,"text":"跟執行面怎麼看"},{"start":6005.16,"end":6007.16,"text":"我們大概看出四大重點"},{"start":6007.16,"end":6009.16,"text":"第一個是判斷的基準是什麼"},{"start":6009.16,"end":6011.16,"text":"是價格是派單是評分是庭權"},{"start":6011.16,"end":6013.16,"text":"還是所謂的客服"},{"start":6013.16,"end":6014.16,"text":"第二個是責任範圍"},{"start":6014.16,"end":6016.16,"text":"要揭露到多少程度"},{"start":6016.16,"end":6018.16,"text":"管理的安全機制是誰負責"},{"start":6018.16,"end":6021.16,"text":"保險客服跟資料申報的義務是誰"},{"start":6021.16,"end":6023.16,"text":"第三個是制度怎麼設計"},{"start":6023.16,"end":6026.16,"text":"包含碰刺交易金額合作車輛數控制"},{"start":6026.16,"end":6029.16,"text":"但是要特別要避免兩種風險"},{"start":6029.16,"end":6032.16,"text":"第一個大型平台不能以資訊服務名義"},{"start":6032.16,"end":6034.16,"text":"去規避公共責任"},{"start":6034.16,"end":6035.16,"text":"這是非常重要"},{"start":6035.16,"end":6038.16,"text":"第二個鼓勵創新小型的車隊"},{"start":6038.16,"end":6040.16,"text":"甚至我們地方有很多車行"},{"start":6040.16,"end":6044.16,"text":"我們這些所謂的個體小型的這些業者"},{"start":6044.16,"end":6046.16,"text":"他們不能被平台犧牲"},{"start":6046.16,"end":6048.16,"text":"如何讓他們也可以蓬勃發展"},{"start":6048.16,"end":6050.16,"text":"這件事情是政府的責任"},{"start":6050.16,"end":6052.16,"text":"不是車隊也不是所謂的"},{"start":6052.16,"end":6054.16,"text":"所謂任何在做的所謂的"},{"start":6054.16,"end":6056.16,"text":"營業工作者你們的責任"},{"start":6057.63,"end":6061.63,"text":"接下來價格的方面我想要跟大家講"},{"start":6061.63,"end":6063.63,"text":"其實最無辜的是乘客"},{"start":6063.63,"end":6065.63,"text":"因為乘客根本不知道"},{"start":6065.63,"end":6066.63,"text":"到底是什麼樣的狀態"},{"start":6066.63,"end":6068.63,"text":"第二個無辜的是駕駛"},{"start":6068.63,"end":6071.63,"text":"但是如果我們在這邊談論的過程裡面"},{"start":6071.63,"end":6073.63,"text":"沒有駕駛沒有乘客的思維"},{"start":6073.63,"end":6075.63,"text":"我覺得我們談再多都只是在"},{"start":6075.63,"end":6077.63,"text":"我們的決策基礎裡面"},{"start":6077.63,"end":6079.63,"text":"做自己的一個想像"},{"start":6079.63,"end":6081.63,"text":"所以以下四點我是想說"},{"start":6081.63,"end":6085.63,"text":"可以在未來的討論應該要去多去描述的"},{"start":6085.63,"end":6088.63,"text":"第二個是乘客端的事前揭露要做到什麼程度"},{"start":6088.63,"end":6091.63,"text":"第二個駕駛端應該有雙向帳戶"},{"start":6091.63,"end":6094.63,"text":"不應該讓駕駛在這個過程裡面"},{"start":6094.63,"end":6097.63,"text":"去有高度的諮詢不對稱"},{"start":6097.63,"end":6100.63,"text":"導致他其實因著不同的狀態"},{"start":6100.63,"end":6102.63,"text":"他做出不好的判斷"},{"start":6102.63,"end":6105.63,"text":"第三個是動態計價要有例外"},{"start":6105.63,"end":6106.63,"text":"例如說災難"},{"start":6106.63,"end":6109.63,"text":"例如說公共運輸發生的中斷"},{"start":6109.63,"end":6112.63,"text":"這個不能用所謂的動態定價去處理"},{"start":6112.63,"end":6115.63,"text":"第四個是非常態的加乘歸屬"},{"start":6116.02,"end":6120.02,"text":"我主張所有的加乘歸屬應該要回到我們的司機端"},{"start":6120.02,"end":6122.02,"text":"還有我們跟司機合作的車行端"},{"start":6122.02,"end":6125.02,"text":"因為是他們真正來負責最後的責任"},{"start":6125.02,"end":6126.02,"text":"不是平台"},{"start":6126.02,"end":6128.02,"text":"平台的所有的交易成本"},{"start":6128.02,"end":6130.02,"text":"在過程裡面是一樣的"},{"start":6130.02,"end":6131.02,"text":"但是在災難的發生"},{"start":6131.02,"end":6134.02,"text":"願意去挺身去救災的那一群"},{"start":6134.02,"end":6136.02,"text":"去運輸的那一群是我們的勞動者"},{"start":6136.02,"end":6137.02,"text":"跟我們的直接"},{"start":6137.02,"end":6141.02,"text":"跟勞動者在承擔保險責任的車行"},{"start":6142.08,"end":6144.08,"text":"最後一個就是基金"},{"start":6144.08,"end":6147.08,"text":"基金到底該不該跟車隊收、平台收"},{"start":6147.08,"end":6150.08,"text":"或者應該由政府去做一個轉型基金"},{"start":6150.08,"end":6151.08,"text":"我剛剛有講"},{"start":6151.08,"end":6153.08,"text":"前面的學者也講"},{"start":6153.08,"end":6155.08,"text":"Robot testing很快就會來"},{"start":6155.08,"end":6157.08,"text":"到時候計程車可能會失業"},{"start":6157.08,"end":6160.08,"text":"當他面對這個很大的產業轉型"},{"start":6160.08,"end":6163.08,"text":"他怎麼去轉型升級這些事情"},{"start":6163.08,"end":6166.08,"text":"是我覺得我們應該要在這次的修法去思考"},{"start":6166.08,"end":6170.08,"text":"所以我認為其實應該鼓勵司機去朝向"},{"start":6170.08,"end":6172.08,"text":"剛剛那三個比較難服務的"},{"start":6172.08,"end":6174.08,"text":"就是偏鄉到偏鄉服務"},{"start":6174.08,"end":6176.08,"text":"如果願意偏鄉服務的"},{"start":6176.08,"end":6177.08,"text":"我們應該給他鼓勵"},{"start":6177.08,"end":6179.08,"text":"第二個高齡願意多做高齡的"},{"start":6179.08,"end":6181.08,"text":"我們給他鼓勵"},{"start":6181.08,"end":6183.08,"text":"第三個在少子化裡面"},{"start":6183.08,"end":6185.08,"text":"無人車是唯一的解方"},{"start":6185.08,"end":6187.08,"text":"這件事情是沒有辦法改變的"},{"start":6187.08,"end":6188.08,"text":"所以我認為其實應該要"},{"start":6188.08,"end":6190.08,"text":"賠力我們的司機升級轉型"},{"start":6190.08,"end":6194.08,"text":"設立的基金目的不是來補償公共服務"},{"start":6194.08,"end":6196.08,"text":"而是來提升我們的司機"},{"start":6196.08,"end":6198.08,"text":"未來的轉型的一個機會"},{"start":6198.08,"end":6200.08,"text":"提升他的求生的能力"},{"start":6200.08,"end":6202.08,"text":"還有把車行的這個角色"},{"start":6202.08,"end":6205.08,"text":"怎麼樣把它做一個未來的價值創造"},{"start":6205.08,"end":6208.08,"text":"所以服務的可近性跟價值保障跟治理"},{"start":6208.08,"end":6211.08,"text":"我覺得這件事情我們可以去施法日本"},{"start":6211.08,"end":6213.08,"text":"因為日本的高齡已經很高"},{"start":6213.08,"end":6216.08,"text":"所以他們有所謂介護型的司機"},{"start":6216.08,"end":6218.08,"text":"就是照顧服務型的司機"},{"start":6218.08,"end":6220.08,"text":"所以他們把長照跟富康"},{"start":6220.08,"end":6222.08,"text":"很多的方式把它融入到"},{"start":6222.08,"end":6224.08,"text":"跟移動服務來做整合性設計"},{"start":6224.08,"end":6227.08,"text":"也因為這樣而創造了很多"},{"start":6227.08,"end":6229.08,"text":"不會被AI取代的勞動力"},{"start":6229.08,"end":6231.08,"text":"那我最後想講的是"},{"start":6231.08,"end":6235.08,"text":"要把業態轉成一個從進合轉到公共服務"},{"start":6235.08,"end":6237.08,"text":"安全 透明 公平 高齡友善"},{"start":6237.08,"end":6239.08,"text":"以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":6241.76,"end":6243.76,"text":"好 謝謝我們侯教授的發言"},{"start":6243.76,"end":6245.76,"text":"那第一輪發言結束"},{"start":6245.76,"end":6247.76,"text":"那我們進行第二輪發言"},{"start":6247.76,"end":6249.76,"text":"那在第二輪發言之前"},{"start":6249.76,"end":6251.76,"text":"我作為主席先表達一下我的意見"},{"start":6251.86,"end":6253.86,"text":"我想今天還是謝謝大家出席這個公聽會"},{"start":6253.86,"end":6255.86,"text":"那我要再次強調"},{"start":6255.86,"end":6257.86,"text":"今天這個法律它本身"},{"start":6257.86,"end":6259.86,"text":"就是提出來這個法案它這個手段"},{"start":6259.86,"end":6261.86,"text":"手段是什麼就是希望有這個公聽會"},{"start":6261.86,"end":6263.86,"text":"來蒐集大家意見"},{"start":6263.86,"end":6265.86,"text":"所以最後這個法律會不會叫這個名稱"},{"start":6266.63,"end":6268.63,"text":"裡面的內容不會跟現在完全一模一樣"},{"start":6268.63,"end":6270.63,"text":"一定是蒐集大家意見之後"},{"start":6270.63,"end":6272.63,"text":"那後續會進行真實質的修法跟討論"},{"start":6272.63,"end":6274.63,"text":"那過程當中也感謝大家提供這麼多意見"},{"start":6274.63,"end":6276.63,"text":"所以我後續也會跟大家去保持聯絡"},{"start":6276.63,"end":6278.63,"text":"那再來就是說我想"},{"start":6278.63,"end":6280.63,"text":"實務上來講我們也是因為"},{"start":6280.63,"end":6282.63,"text":"這個科技發展現在"},{"start":6282.63,"end":6284.63,"text":"大家都是用APP在叫車 多數人都是APP叫車"},{"start":6284.63,"end":6286.63,"text":"所以是叫車平台的改變的方式"},{"start":6286.63,"end":6288.63,"text":"那所以導致所有相關的法律"},{"start":6288.63,"end":6290.63,"text":"跟衍生的這個責任義務跑出來"},{"start":6290.63,"end":6292.63,"text":"那當然實際上也是因為"},{"start":6292.63,"end":6294.63,"text":"台六四的事件發生之後"},{"start":6294.63,"end":6296.63,"text":"所以引起了社會各家"},{"start":6296.63,"end":6298.63,"text":"關注到這個事情"},{"start":6299,"end":6301,"text":"我們多數的消費者"},{"start":6301,"end":6303,"text":"包含我本人在內都認為都以為說"},{"start":6303,"end":6305,"text":"可能平台有相關的責任"},{"start":6305,"end":6307,"text":"但實際上在現行的法律架構裡面"},{"start":6307,"end":6309,"text":"確實平台的這個責任"},{"start":6309,"end":6311,"text":"跟車隊的責任跟駕駛責任"},{"start":6311,"end":6313,"text":"這部分我們希望說在法律上能夠更明確的來釐清"},{"start":6313,"end":6315,"text":"那就我們現在看到"},{"start":6315,"end":6317,"text":"的狀況說平台當然有掌握"},{"start":6317,"end":6319,"text":"所謂叫車的時間"},{"start":6319,"end":6321,"text":"乘客的定位 行車路線"},{"start":6321,"end":6323,"text":"下車地點 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我們跟其他很多"},{"start":6425,"end":6427,"text":"在場的所有的先進表達意見"},{"start":6427,"end":6429,"text":"其實差不多一致喔"},{"start":6429,"end":6431,"text":"大家都沒有反對動態定價"},{"start":6431,"end":6433,"text":"但是我們要回到一個實務問題"},{"start":6433,"end":6435,"text":"就是說"},{"start":6434.23,"end":6436.23,"text":"如果今天在車站"},{"start":6436.23,"end":6438.23,"text":"有人計程車喊價500塊"},{"start":6438.23,"end":6440.23,"text":"700塊 1000塊 他是違法的"},{"start":6440.81,"end":6442.81,"text":"但是透過APP"},{"start":6442.6,"end":6444.6,"text":"定價500塊 1000塊是合法的"},{"start":6444.6,"end":6446.6,"text":"好 我想在"},{"start":6446.6,"end":6448.6,"text":"邏輯上 在法理上 在使用經驗上"},{"start":6448.6,"end":6450.6,"text":"這件事情是有 這兩件事"},{"start":6450.6,"end":6452.6,"text":"是悖論 所以我們希望說"},{"start":6452.6,"end":6454.6,"text":"在定價上面能夠更明確"},{"start":6454.6,"end":6456.6,"text":"那當然 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我出越多錢"},{"start":6506.46,"end":6508.46,"text":"就能夠做越好的車"},{"start":6508.46,"end":6510.46,"text":"或是能夠一定交到車"},{"start":6510.46,"end":6512.46,"text":"但是如果從大眾運輸業者的邏輯"},{"start":6512.46,"end":6514.46,"text":"我想這個無限上漲的價格"},{"start":6514.46,"end":6516.46,"text":"我想是違背了大眾運輸的精神跟理念"},{"start":6516.46,"end":6518.46,"text":"所以我們把這個精神放進去"},{"start":6519.72,"end":6521.72,"text":"那我想這次的核心精神還是要推動所謂的"},{"start":6521.72,"end":6523.72,"text":"功能性管理啦"},{"start":6523.72,"end":6525.72,"text":"我們不是要針對說特定哪一個業者"},{"start":6525.72,"end":6527.72,"text":"特定的哪一個平台"},{"start":6527.72,"end":6529.72,"text":"特定的哪一個車隊、車行或是"},{"start":6529.72,"end":6531.72,"text":"這個駕駛人做單一法案的管理"},{"start":6531.72,"end":6533.72,"text":"而是說在這整件事情裡面"},{"start":6533.72,"end":6535.72,"text":"到底我們的現行的公路法"},{"start":6535.72,"end":6537.72,"text":"跟相關的法令裡面"},{"start":6537.72,"end":6539.72,"text":"能不能去提供業者、提供消費者"},{"start":6539.72,"end":6541.72,"text":"提供駕駛更好的權益跟保障"},{"start":6541.72,"end":6543.72,"text":"所以我們才有做相關這樣的修法"},{"start":6543.72,"end":6545.72,"text":"也希望說透過大家收集的意見"},{"start":6545.72,"end":6547.72,"text":"從不同的角度 從業者的角度"},{"start":6547.72,"end":6549.72,"text":"從駕駛的角度、從消費者的角度"},{"start":6549.72,"end":6551.72,"text":"去了解這件事情到底發生什麼事情"},{"start":6551.72,"end":6553.72,"text":"為什麼現行的法令缺在哪裡"},{"start":6553.72,"end":6555.72,"text":"那怎麼會沒辦法把它管理起來"},{"start":6555.72,"end":6557.72,"text":"所以才有這樣子的一個公聽會"},{"start":6557.72,"end":6559.72,"text":"然後我想"},{"start":6559.72,"end":6561.72,"text":"最終就是我們看到現狀看到說"},{"start":6561.72,"end":6563.72,"text":"這個平台當然現在決定如何派單"},{"start":6563.72,"end":6565.72,"text":"如何計價"},{"start":6565.72,"end":6567.72,"text":"那誰能接單誰會被停權"},{"start":6567.72,"end":6569.72,"text":"但在事故或消費爭議發生的時候"},{"start":6569.72,"end":6571.72,"text":"平台又變成只是資訊"},{"start":6571.72,"end":6573.72,"text":"媒合了這個平台的角色"},{"start":6573.72,"end":6575.72,"text":"我想這部分"},{"start":6575.72,"end":6577.72,"text":"在責任上面我們希望說能夠進一步的釐清"},{"start":6577.72,"end":6579.72,"text":"也保障駕駛的合理權益"},{"start":6579.72,"end":6581.72,"text":"消費者的權益也需要被保障"},{"start":6583.32,"end":6585.32,"text":"我想這個平台現在是"},{"start":6585.32,"end":6587.32,"text":"民眾叫車確認價值"},{"start":6587.32,"end":6589.32,"text":"身份支付費用跟提出"},{"start":6589.32,"end":6591.32,"text":"申訴的主要窗口"},{"start":6591.32,"end":6593.32,"text":"那我希望說在平台在問題發生的時候"},{"start":6593.32,"end":6595.32,"text":"就不能完全排除相關的責任"},{"start":6595.32,"end":6597.32,"text":"那當然最後"},{"start":6597.32,"end":6599.32,"text":"政府跟立法院現在應該要做的是"},{"start":6599.32,"end":6601.32,"text":"正視這個制度的缺口"},{"start":6601.32,"end":6603.32,"text":"我們要建立到能夠事前預防"},{"start":6603.32,"end":6605.32,"text":"事中介入事後追究的完整的管理制度"},{"start":6605.32,"end":6607.32,"text":"讓科技能夠"},{"start":6607.32,"end":6609.32,"text":"真正的服務人類"},{"start":6609.32,"end":6611.32,"text":"那不是讓這個責任"},{"start":6611.32,"end":6615.32,"text":"那是在這個平台跟車隊跟駕駛之間的這個灰色地帶"},{"start":6615.32,"end":6617.32,"text":"那以上是我這一次辦"},{"start":6617.32,"end":6619.32,"text":"市長公立會的這個主要的一些立場"},{"start":6619.32,"end":6621.32,"text":"讓所有的與會專家學者跟業者"},{"start":6621.32,"end":6623.32,"text":"來了解我們的立場"},{"start":6623.32,"end":6625.32,"text":"那後續還會有很多的討論"},{"start":6625.32,"end":6627.32,"text":"那接下來我們進入第二輪發言"},{"start":6627.32,"end":6629.32,"text":"那麼先請李威爾理事長"},{"start":6629.32,"end":6631.32,"text":"就是我們台灣數位平台預約"},{"start":6631.32,"end":6633.32,"text":"接送重用聯合公會的理事長發言"},{"start":6633.32,"end":6635.32,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6638.88,"end":6640.88,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6640.88,"end":6642.88,"text":"兩大系統的發言果然沒有令人失望"},{"start":6642.88,"end":6644.88,"text":"這麼長久以來"},{"start":6644.88,"end":6646.88,"text":"一直都是"},{"start":6646.88,"end":6648.88,"text":"錢我賺責任我推"},{"start":6648.88,"end":6650.88,"text":"不管在哪一個立場他們都是一樣的"},{"start":6650.88,"end":6652.88,"text":"但是他可以把他美化得非常的漂亮"},{"start":6652.88,"end":6654.88,"text":"那我也希望相關的"},{"start":6654.88,"end":6656.88,"text":"與會學者還有委員"},{"start":6656.88,"end":6658.88,"text":"還有江部你們是最了解他們的"},{"start":6658.88,"end":6660.88,"text":"就是"},{"start":6660.88,"end":6662.88,"text":"從來不會讓人家失望"},{"start":6662.88,"end":6664.88,"text":"他們推卸責任的說法"},{"start":6664.88,"end":6666.88,"text":"那我麻煩報告一下"},{"start":6666.88,"end":6668.88,"text":"因為要很快速的去把它"},{"start":6668.88,"end":6670.88,"text":"說完我沒有講"},{"start":6670.88,"end":6672.88,"text":"因為只有三分鐘"},{"start":6674.73,"end":6676.73,"text":"對 好"},{"start":6675.85,"end":6677.85,"text":"真實的狀況裡面各位可以看到更扯的"},{"start":6677.85,"end":6679.85,"text":"我司機收不到錢"},{"start":6679.85,"end":6681.85,"text":"系統說他有帶電系統"},{"start":6682.56,"end":6684.56,"text":"他有帶電系統"},{"start":6684.56,"end":6686.56,"text":"所以他就離開了"},{"start":6686.56,"end":6688.56,"text":"離開之後刷卡沒有過"},{"start":6687.51,"end":6689.51,"text":"再見"},{"start":6689.53,"end":6691.53,"text":"三千多塊再去台中"},{"start":6691.44,"end":6693.44,"text":"收不到錢"},{"start":6692.86,"end":6694.86,"text":"司機跟業者反應"},{"start":6694.86,"end":6696.86,"text":"業者說我是梅和 不關我的事"},{"start":6697.26,"end":6699.26,"text":"他刷20%"},{"start":6699.26,"end":6701.26,"text":"這是剛剛我沒有講完的部分"},{"start":6701.26,"end":6703.26,"text":"所以錢他賺 我收不到錢"},{"start":6703.26,"end":6705.26,"text":"他沒責任 就是這樣子"},{"start":6705.26,"end":6707.26,"text":"來幫我再下一頁"},{"start":6707.59,"end":6709.59,"text":"好"},{"start":6708.52,"end":6710.52,"text":"我們其實想講的是"},{"start":6710.52,"end":6712.52,"text":"這個法為什麼我們支持"},{"start":6712.52,"end":6714.52,"text":"因為我們希望實質的"},{"start":6714.52,"end":6716.52,"text":"控制力的人他要負起絕對的責任"},{"start":6716.52,"end":6718.52,"text":"就那麼簡單 下一頁"},{"start":6720.26,"end":6722.26,"text":"現在的抽成 跟大家說一個"},{"start":6722.26,"end":6724.26,"text":"很好玩的故事"},{"start":6724.26,"end":6726.26,"text":"N年前 我們在談抽成上限的時候"},{"start":6726.26,"end":6728.26,"text":"某一個團體告訴我們"},{"start":6728.26,"end":6730.26,"text":"10%計算車"},{"start":6730.26,"end":6732.26,"text":"就會賺翻了"},{"start":6732.26,"end":6734.26,"text":"今天我聽到的是"},{"start":6734.26,"end":6736.26,"text":"他們要20%"},{"start":6736.26,"end":6738.26,"text":"台北覺得很合理"},{"start":6738.26,"end":6740.26,"text":"各位 同樣的人"},{"start":6740.26,"end":6742.26,"text":"他提N年前提10%"},{"start":6742.26,"end":6744.26,"text":"現在他提20%"},{"start":6744.26,"end":6746.26,"text":"為什麼 因為他從12.5%"},{"start":6746.26,"end":6748.26,"text":"漲到15% 他賺了2.5%"},{"start":6748.26,"end":6750.26,"text":"他覺得 哇 我的企業好好賺"},{"start":6750.26,"end":6752.26,"text":"所以時空背景不同"},{"start":6752.26,"end":6754.26,"text":"因為他賺到的錢 他剝削了我們"},{"start":6754.26,"end":6756.26,"text":"所以他認為本來的10%"},{"start":6756.26,"end":6758.26,"text":"以前談10% 他現在提20%"},{"start":6758.26,"end":6760.26,"text":"我們認為就是10%"},{"start":6760.26,"end":6762.26,"text":"就是10%上限"},{"start":6762.26,"end":6764.26,"text":"更好笑的是 Uber"},{"start":6764.12,"end":6766.12,"text":"25% 3%是給車隊"},{"start":6766.12,"end":6768.12,"text":"所以這個車隊 就是白手套"},{"start":6768.12,"end":6770.12,"text":"平白戶拿3%"},{"start":6769.89,"end":6771.89,"text":"那Uber的小黃是10%"},{"start":6771.89,"end":6773.89,"text":"調成12.5%"},{"start":6773.89,"end":6775.89,"text":"有送豬管機關合訂嗎 沒有"},{"start":6775.89,"end":6777.89,"text":"有送豬管機關討論嗎 沒有"},{"start":6777.89,"end":6779.89,"text":"有跟司機討論嗎 沒有"},{"start":6779.89,"end":6781.89,"text":"他愛怎麼調 就怎麼調"},{"start":6781.89,"end":6783.89,"text":"同一個系統 同一台Artist"},{"start":6783.89,"end":6785.89,"text":"黃色12.5%"},{"start":6785.42,"end":6787.42,"text":"非黃色"},{"start":6787.66,"end":6789.66,"text":"25%"},{"start":6801.18,"end":6803.18,"text":"台風架"},{"start":6803.18,"end":6805.18,"text":"例如說 豪宇的狀況"},{"start":6806.51,"end":6808.51,"text":"高速公路"},{"start":6807.88,"end":6809.88,"text":"很多的機架方式 我們認為"},{"start":6809.88,"end":6811.88,"text":"他只能去抽運駕的範圍之內"},{"start":6811.88,"end":6813.88,"text":"所以地方政府的運駕審查"},{"start":6813.88,"end":6815.88,"text":"就變得是非常重要"},{"start":6815.88,"end":6817.88,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6819.79,"end":6821.79,"text":"好"},{"start":6820.91,"end":6822.91,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6822.26,"end":6824.26,"text":"可以嗎"},{"start":6823.1,"end":6825.1,"text":"好"},{"start":6824.21,"end":6826.21,"text":"我很快就把它講完了"},{"start":6826.83,"end":6828.83,"text":"運駕的部分 抽成上限 兩倍"},{"start":6828.83,"end":6830.83,"text":"其實我們跟委員的團隊"},{"start":6830.83,"end":6832.83,"text":"討論過一件事情 如果他提1.5倍"},{"start":6832.83,"end":6834.83,"text":"他應該會被全台灣的"},{"start":6834.83,"end":6836.83,"text":"機輪車多人駕駛 尤其是Uber的駕駛"},{"start":6836.83,"end":6838.83,"text":"可能會去找他的辦公室"},{"start":6838.83,"end":6840.83,"text":"但是一定要其他的配套的東西"},{"start":6840.83,"end":6842.83,"text":"我們提出的是兩倍"},{"start":6842.83,"end":6844.83,"text":"但是限制系統的"},{"start":6844.83,"end":6846.83,"text":"抽成範圍"},{"start":6846.62,"end":6848.62,"text":"如果加成的倍數"},{"start":6848.62,"end":6850.62,"text":"系統是不能夠抽成的"},{"start":6850.62,"end":6852.62,"text":"對於消費者來講 你保護他的抽成上"},{"start":6852.62,"end":6854.62,"text":"你保護他的"},{"start":6854.62,"end":6856.62,"text":"不要被漫天喊價之外"},{"start":6856.62,"end":6858.62,"text":"要去增加計程車司機的"},{"start":6858.62,"end":6860.62,"text":"接案率 簡單來講是"},{"start":6860.62,"end":6862.62,"text":"平台抽少一點 我賺多一點 我就去了"},{"start":6862.62,"end":6864.62,"text":"又可以保護消費者的權利"},{"start":6864.62,"end":6866.62,"text":"所以我們認為是在兩倍以內"},{"start":6866.62,"end":6868.62,"text":"但是一定要做限縮"},{"start":6868.62,"end":6870.62,"text":"抽成範圍"},{"start":6870.62,"end":6872.62,"text":"加成的部分 平台不能抽"},{"start":6872.62,"end":6874.62,"text":"反而司機拿到的錢會比較多"},{"start":6874.62,"end":6876.62,"text":"更能夠去保護所謂的消費者"},{"start":6876.62,"end":6878.62,"text":"今天不會被漫天喊價的一個權利"},{"start":6878.62,"end":6880.62,"text":"剛剛委員講的我們計程車司機的角度"},{"start":6880.62,"end":6882.62,"text":"我們很贊成"},{"start":6882.62,"end":6884.62,"text":"馬上再跟我開除一下 葉偉傑"},{"start":6885.47,"end":6887.47,"text":"另外對於交易訓練的部分"},{"start":6887.47,"end":6889.47,"text":"說坦白一點的 對於現行的車隊交易"},{"start":6889.47,"end":6891.47,"text":"或系統交易"},{"start":6891.6,"end":6893.6,"text":"計程車團體是非常的不認同"},{"start":6896.15,"end":6898.15,"text":"交通部最認定是"},{"start":6898.15,"end":6900.15,"text":"計程車的管理是計程車司機在交通安全上面"},{"start":6900.15,"end":6902.15,"text":"或是在服務上面的安全"},{"start":6902.15,"end":6904.15,"text":"的這些管理"},{"start":6904.15,"end":6906.15,"text":"但我很坦白告訴你 現實的狀況是什麼"},{"start":6906.15,"end":6908.15,"text":"他只教他的APP啦"},{"start":6908.15,"end":6910.15,"text":"他根本就沒有在教你所謂的其他的教育系統"},{"start":6910.15,"end":6912.15,"text":"所以我們認為計程車的"},{"start":6912.15,"end":6914.15,"text":"安全管理跟他的教育"},{"start":6914.15,"end":6916.15,"text":"應該要分離出來"},{"start":6916.15,"end":6918.15,"text":"就是今天除了計程車司機"},{"start":6918.15,"end":6920.15,"text":"像我們每一個司機都知道一件事情"},{"start":6920.15,"end":6922.15,"text":"我考到職業登機證 我要去交通大隊上課"},{"start":6922.15,"end":6924.15,"text":"一整天的課裡面 我也有在"},{"start":6924.15,"end":6926.15,"text":"台北市交通大隊幫忙上課"},{"start":6927.12,"end":6929.12,"text":"我很坦白跟你講"},{"start":6929.12,"end":6931.12,"text":"那一天的上課只要有我 我的回購率是最高的"},{"start":6931.12,"end":6933.12,"text":"每一個人我上完出來就說"},{"start":6933.12,"end":6935.12,"text":"威爾 我覺得你上的是最有用"},{"start":6935.12,"end":6937.12,"text":"因為我講的是計程車實務的東西"},{"start":6937.92,"end":6939.92,"text":"可是我們的license"},{"start":6939.92,"end":6941.92,"text":"拿到之後 有沒有"},{"start":6941.92,"end":6943.92,"text":"再去做回訓這件事情"},{"start":6943.92,"end":6945.92,"text":"其實我們認為應該要做"},{"start":6945.92,"end":6947.92,"text":"從一開始今天"},{"start":6947.92,"end":6949.92,"text":"你要拿到的這一個執照"},{"start":6949.92,"end":6951.92,"text":"其實說坦白一點 計程車執照"},{"start":6951.92,"end":6953.92,"text":"本來就不應該是交通大隊去"},{"start":6953.92,"end":6955.92,"text":"做上課的啦 他只會上"},{"start":6955.92,"end":6957.92,"text":"交通安全 他會上其他的東西嗎"},{"start":6958.81,"end":6960.81,"text":"不會 他會去告訴你車行有什麼"},{"start":6960.81,"end":6962.81,"text":"風險嗎 他會告訴你"},{"start":6962.81,"end":6964.81,"text":"加入車隊有什麼風險嗎"},{"start":6964.81,"end":6966.81,"text":"他都不知道啊 那怎麼會是license"},{"start":6966.81,"end":6968.81,"text":"是他發的"},{"start":6968.81,"end":6970.81,"text":"然後也沒有一個回購審查機制"},{"start":6970.81,"end":6972.81,"text":"我們覺得應該是公辦教育"},{"start":6972.81,"end":6974.81,"text":"要去做所謂的教育訓練"},{"start":6974.81,"end":6976.81,"text":"然後每一個司機取得"},{"start":6976.81,"end":6978.81,"text":"這樣子的相關證照之後"},{"start":6978.81,"end":6980.81,"text":"定期的 他們只要做"},{"start":6980.81,"end":6982.81,"text":"一件事情 審查資料"},{"start":6982.81,"end":6984.81,"text":"跟做什麼 其他他們"},{"start":6984.81,"end":6986.81,"text":"系統要的東西 因為我坦白"},{"start":6986.81,"end":6988.81,"text":"我來告訴你 他們的陸隊"},{"start":6988.81,"end":6990.81,"text":"基本上講的都是操作"},{"start":6990.81,"end":6992.81,"text":"系統而已 根本沒有教育"},{"start":6992.81,"end":6994.81,"text":"但每次跟交通部講"},{"start":6994.81,"end":6996.81,"text":"交通部說 他沒有做教育 他就沒有"},{"start":6996.81,"end":6998.81,"text":"就真的就沒有"},{"start":6998.81,"end":7000.81,"text":"然後針對所謂的"},{"start":7000.81,"end":7002.81,"text":"政府相關的標案的服務"},{"start":7002.81,"end":7004.81,"text":"探視 在座我也不客氣"},{"start":7004.81,"end":7006.81,"text":"跟葉總講啊"},{"start":7006.81,"end":7008.81,"text":"你們標了很多案子 你們把所有的"},{"start":7008.81,"end":7010.81,"text":"標案 付出去的成本全部"},{"start":7010.81,"end":7012.81,"text":"附加在我們司機身上"},{"start":7013.01,"end":7015.01,"text":"這個東西是政府的錢"},{"start":7015.01,"end":7017.01,"text":"是納稅人的錢"},{"start":7017.01,"end":7019.01,"text":"給你之後你來服務我們"},{"start":7019.01,"end":7021.01,"text":"你應該要站在社會公義的角度"},{"start":7022.76,"end":7024.76,"text":"例如說 Uber 跟台北市政府"},{"start":7024.76,"end":7026.76,"text":"簽了好運卷"},{"start":7026.85,"end":7028.85,"text":"公帑1比1轉換成 Uber的搭車金"},{"start":7028.85,"end":7030.85,"text":"他對我還是一樣25%的抽成"},{"start":7030.85,"end":7032.85,"text":"納稅人的錢"},{"start":7032.85,"end":7034.85,"text":"拿來做成"},{"start":7034.95,"end":7036.95,"text":"所謂的營業系統"},{"start":7036.95,"end":7038.95,"text":"上面的一個對司機的剝削"},{"start":7038.95,"end":7040.95,"text":"這絕對是不合理的"},{"start":7040.95,"end":7042.95,"text":"所以我們認為這個部分應該就是5%"},{"start":7042.95,"end":7044.95,"text":"不能夠再去讓對"},{"start":7044.95,"end":7046.95,"text":"所謂的額外的收回 謝謝"},{"start":7048.04,"end":7050.04,"text":"快完了 我也Copy"},{"start":7051.05,"end":7053.05,"text":"下一頁快點好了"},{"start":7053.05,"end":7055.05,"text":"另外大家一直在強調數據"},{"start":7055.05,"end":7057.05,"text":"我要提醒各位一件事情"},{"start":7057.05,"end":7059.05,"text":"我要提醒委員還有交通部"},{"start":7059.05,"end":7061.05,"text":"其實正常最常發生的爭議是什麼"},{"start":7061.05,"end":7063.05,"text":"其實乘客的報價"},{"start":7063.05,"end":7065.05,"text":"跟司機得到的價格"},{"start":7065.05,"end":7067.05,"text":"是不同的"},{"start":7067.35,"end":7069.35,"text":"只是業者都不承認"},{"start":7069.83,"end":7071.83,"text":"舉一個最簡單的例子"},{"start":7071.83,"end":7073.83,"text":"他報給客人100塊"},{"start":7073.83,"end":7075.83,"text":"抽25塊 司機拿75塊"},{"start":7075.83,"end":7077.83,"text":"可是"},{"start":7077.83,"end":7079.83,"text":"我們司機看到的報價"},{"start":7079.83,"end":7081.83,"text":"有可能只有90塊"},{"start":7081.79,"end":7083.79,"text":"所以25塊他都賺了10塊"},{"start":7083.79,"end":7085.79,"text":"沒人可以稽查"},{"start":7086.67,"end":7088.67,"text":"沒有人可以稽查"},{"start":7088.67,"end":7090.67,"text":"所以系統業者利用很多的漏洞"},{"start":7090.67,"end":7092.67,"text":"因為他的資訊沒有辦法公開"},{"start":7092.67,"end":7094.67,"text":"沒有辦法去做所謂的稽查"},{"start":7094.67,"end":7096.67,"text":"他"},{"start":7096.67,"end":7098.67,"text":"客人報價格跟實際客人"},{"start":7098.67,"end":7100.67,"text":"跟客人拿到價格"},{"start":7100.67,"end":7102.67,"text":"跟我們司機拿到價格完全不同"},{"start":7102.67,"end":7104.67,"text":"這個量其實在我們司機團體裡面"},{"start":7104.67,"end":7106.67,"text":"我們很多的人去做反應"},{"start":7106.67,"end":7108.67,"text":"只是他們都不會承認"},{"start":7108.67,"end":7110.67,"text":"甚至於我們很多的司機"},{"start":7110.67,"end":7112.67,"text":"我搭車的時候我就會問客人"},{"start":7112.67,"end":7114.67,"text":"請問一下Uber報給你多少錢"},{"start":7114.67,"end":7116.67,"text":"他說400"},{"start":7116.67,"end":7118.67,"text":"結果他回算跑完他的單子"},{"start":7118.67,"end":7120.67,"text":"不是400啊360啊"},{"start":7120.67,"end":7122.67,"text":"他只有用360去給"},{"start":7122.67,"end":7124.67,"text":"25%然後去給他"},{"start":7124.67,"end":7126.67,"text":"最後的一個得到的價格"},{"start":7127.39,"end":7129.39,"text":"所以派單紀錄跟計費的數據"},{"start":7129.39,"end":7131.39,"text":"其實我們要把它明瞭清楚"},{"start":7131.39,"end":7133.39,"text":"然後讓主管機關可以去做抽驗"},{"start":7133.39,"end":7135.39,"text":"他才不會有所謂的違法的一個利潤空間出來"},{"start":7135.39,"end":7137.39,"text":"這是實際的一個部分"},{"start":7137.39,"end":7139.39,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":7142.73,"end":7144.73,"text":"另外大家"},{"start":7144.73,"end":7146.73,"text":"業者一直在講他們依法已經納稅"},{"start":7146.73,"end":7148.73,"text":"是啦你納稅了所以是經濟部嘛"},{"start":7148.73,"end":7150.73,"text":"請問一下交通部管得了你嗎"},{"start":7150.73,"end":7152.73,"text":"所以我們的認定"},{"start":7152.73,"end":7154.73,"text":"執照要有交通部的執照"},{"start":7154.73,"end":7156.73,"text":"另外這個執照"},{"start":7158,"end":7160,"text":"一定要是什麼"},{"start":7160,"end":7162,"text":"一定要是能夠再所謂的審查"},{"start":7162,"end":7164,"text":"所以幫我跳到最後一頁"},{"start":7164,"end":7166,"text":"手段最後一頁手段就好了"},{"start":7166.07,"end":7168.07,"text":"兩個上一頁"},{"start":7168.08,"end":7170.08,"text":"最重要的兩個手段"},{"start":7170.08,"end":7172.08,"text":"在委員的"},{"start":7171.47,"end":7173.47,"text":"版本裡面只提了罰錢"},{"start":7173.47,"end":7175.47,"text":"我也很坦白跟委員建議"},{"start":7175.47,"end":7177.47,"text":"罰錢他不會收我們錢"},{"start":7177.47,"end":7179.47,"text":"因為他有的就是錢啊"},{"start":7180.5,"end":7182.5,"text":"他只管你什麼他只怕什麼"},{"start":7182.5,"end":7184.5,"text":"我申請了交通部的執照之後"},{"start":7184.5,"end":7186.5,"text":"因為他有再審機制"},{"start":7186.5,"end":7188.5,"text":"三年一次或兩年一次的再審"},{"start":7188.5,"end":7190.5,"text":"我主管機關可以透過你"},{"start":7190.5,"end":7192.5,"text":"這兩三年的營運方式"},{"start":7192.5,"end":7194.5,"text":"還有你對司機的方式還有你有沒有遵照"},{"start":7194.5,"end":7196.5,"text":"這個專法的方式我對你做審查"},{"start":7196.5,"end":7198.5,"text":"他不怕你罰錢"},{"start":7198.5,"end":7200.5,"text":"他只怕你停權"},{"start":7200.5,"end":7202.5,"text":"他只怕你撤照"},{"start":7202.8,"end":7204.8,"text":"如果今天這些系統的業者"},{"start":7204.8,"end":7206.8,"text":"他的執照是由交通部去發的"},{"start":7206.8,"end":7208.8,"text":"只要違反"},{"start":7208.8,"end":7210.8,"text":"只要不願意協商"},{"start":7210.8,"end":7212.8,"text":"那就是什麼那就是停權"},{"start":7212.8,"end":7214.8,"text":"我很坦白告訴你停一個禮拜Uber"},{"start":7214.8,"end":7216.8,"text":"停一個月UberUber什麼都乖了啦"},{"start":7217.22,"end":7219.22,"text":"什麼都照你的方式做了啦"},{"start":7219.31,"end":7221.31,"text":"都一樣"},{"start":7221.31,"end":7223.31,"text":"最後我們的強烈建議是"},{"start":7223.31,"end":7225.31,"text":"除了有罰錢之外"},{"start":7225.31,"end":7227.31,"text":"務必在證照上面"},{"start":7227.31,"end":7229.31,"text":"一定要跟交通部申請"},{"start":7229.31,"end":7231.31,"text":"而這樣的證照一定要有再審機制"},{"start":7231.31,"end":7233.31,"text":"而且要有停權"},{"start":7233.31,"end":7235.31,"text":"還有所謂的廢照的機制"},{"start":7235.31,"end":7237.31,"text":"他們才會害怕謝謝"},{"start":7238.61,"end":7240.61,"text":"謝謝李維尤理事長"},{"start":7240.61,"end":7242.61,"text":"接下來請林佩莉理事長"},{"start":7252.7,"end":7254.7,"text":"主席各位委員那個評論會第二次發言"},{"start":7254.7,"end":7256.7,"text":"那就針對剛剛上述"},{"start":7256.7,"end":7258.7,"text":"各產官學"},{"start":7258.7,"end":7260.7,"text":"有發表一些想法看法跟意見"},{"start":7260.7,"end":7262.7,"text":"我這裡補充報告"},{"start":7262.7,"end":7264.7,"text":"其實還是回饋到那個問題"},{"start":7264.7,"end":7266.7,"text":"全責相扶啦"},{"start":7266.7,"end":7268.7,"text":"你今天拿取了多少"},{"start":7268.7,"end":7270.7,"text":"那你就應該承擔你相關的責任"},{"start":7270.7,"end":7272.7,"text":"那我們這邊呢對威爾剛剛提出來的"},{"start":7272.7,"end":7274.7,"text":"就是有關於下架的問題"},{"start":7274.7,"end":7276.7,"text":"我們也是支持站在支持的立場"},{"start":7276.7,"end":7278.7,"text":"因為我們覺得"},{"start":7278.7,"end":7280.7,"text":"你計程車你既然這個平台"},{"start":7280.7,"end":7282.7,"text":"既然你是建車客運業"},{"start":7282.7,"end":7284.7,"text":"那公務法裡面原定是"},{"start":7284.7,"end":7286.7,"text":"原定是如果說"},{"start":7286.7,"end":7288.7,"text":"主管機關針對於關於派遣業"},{"start":7288.7,"end":7290.7,"text":"如果說有違反的"},{"start":7290.7,"end":7292.7,"text":"他的公務法的"},{"start":7292.85,"end":7294.85,"text":"規定的話啦可以對他做下架"},{"start":7294.85,"end":7296.85,"text":"但是資訊業者你要怎麼"},{"start":7296.85,"end":7298.85,"text":"下架我希望說如果說"},{"start":7298.85,"end":7300.85,"text":"可以的話把他納入這一次"},{"start":7300.85,"end":7302.85,"text":"修法的參考依據啦"},{"start":7302.85,"end":7304.85,"text":"就是在我們條文裡面看是否能增加說"},{"start":7304.85,"end":7306.85,"text":"針對相關業者"},{"start":7306.85,"end":7308.85,"text":"對他做停權對他做平台的封鎖"},{"start":7308.85,"end":7310.85,"text":"那其實這部分包含的是"},{"start":7310.85,"end":7312.85,"text":"合法業者啦還有很多非法"},{"start":7312.85,"end":7314.85,"text":"業者我相信在派遣平台"},{"start":7314.85,"end":7316.85,"text":"App裡面有很多"},{"start":7316.85,"end":7318.85,"text":"也是用"},{"start":7318.85,"end":7320.85,"text":"他也不是取得資格的那個客運"},{"start":7320.85,"end":7322.85,"text":"但是他卻是上架的App"},{"start":7322.85,"end":7324.85,"text":"在平台裡面還是有人在"},{"start":7324.85,"end":7326.85,"text":"使用"},{"start":7326.85,"end":7328.85,"text":"我也知道說近期公務部"},{"start":7328.85,"end":7330.85,"text":"還有主管機關還有國人都很關心"},{"start":7330.85,"end":7332.85,"text":"的一件事就是我們的獨家"},{"start":7332.85,"end":7334.85,"text":"那其實就調查"},{"start":7334.85,"end":7336.85,"text":"也發現說我們去看司法院判例"},{"start":7336.85,"end":7338.85,"text":"也可以發現到很多有關我們的"},{"start":7338.85,"end":7340.85,"text":"獨家或是車手詐騙案"},{"start":7340.85,"end":7342.85,"text":"都用很多非法的白牌"},{"start":7342.85,"end":7344.85,"text":"在運營"},{"start":7344.85,"end":7346.85,"text":"那如果說他用這些"},{"start":7346.85,"end":7348.85,"text":"一樣可能他是用這種"},{"start":7348.85,"end":7350.85,"text":"透過網際網路透過Line"},{"start":7350.85,"end":7352.85,"text":"或是Facebook或是一些系統"},{"start":7352.85,"end":7354.85,"text":"網路端去做媒合派遣的這個"},{"start":7354.85,"end":7356.85,"text":"部分的話是不是也可以納入"},{"start":7356.85,"end":7358.85,"text":"專法來做這個"},{"start":7358.85,"end":7360.85,"text":"對他們的取締啦我覺得說"},{"start":7360.85,"end":7362.85,"text":"這個是另外"},{"start":7362.85,"end":7364.85,"text":"也給大家一個"},{"start":7364.85,"end":7366.85,"text":"提出一個看法我們工會的看法啦"},{"start":7366.85,"end":7368.85,"text":"就是說如果說今天"},{"start":7368.85,"end":7370.85,"text":"我們對於合法的"},{"start":7370.85,"end":7372.85,"text":"業者需要經歷過很多"},{"start":7372.85,"end":7374.85,"text":"的包含的是"},{"start":7374.85,"end":7376.85,"text":"包含的是可能是這些"},{"start":7376.85,"end":7378.85,"text":"還有這些平台業者都需要很多的監管"},{"start":7378.85,"end":7380.85,"text":"那如果說對於白牌"},{"start":7380.85,"end":7382.85,"text":"我們卻不去管轄的話"},{"start":7382.85,"end":7384.85,"text":"那會不會衍生出說合法的世界會覺得說"},{"start":7384.85,"end":7386.85,"text":"我幹嘛買保險我幹嘛要"},{"start":7386.85,"end":7388.85,"text":"這麼辛苦的去考試那我就"},{"start":7388.85,"end":7390.85,"text":"來跑白牌就好我就來我就不用"},{"start":7390.85,"end":7392.85,"text":"這會形成另外一種監理套利"},{"start":7392.85,"end":7394.85,"text":"所以我們會建議說是不是"},{"start":7394.85,"end":7396.85,"text":"公務法57條之一"},{"start":7396.85,"end":7398.85,"text":"款能修正說不要在"},{"start":7398.85,"end":7400.85,"text":"那個會同警察啦就是說"},{"start":7400.85,"end":7402.85,"text":"以我們目前所知道"},{"start":7402.85,"end":7404.85,"text":"就我們看到業內所看到的"},{"start":7404.85,"end":7406.85,"text":"很多的白牌車很多的那個非法"},{"start":7406.85,"end":7408.85,"text":"就是未經核准許可在"},{"start":7408.85,"end":7410.85,"text":"應允的在執法局立上確實"},{"start":7410.85,"end":7412.85,"text":"有他的困難度啦"},{"start":7412.85,"end":7414.85,"text":"因為可能在主管機關"},{"start":7414.85,"end":7416.85,"text":"你去跟警察包含警察"},{"start":7416.85,"end":7418.85,"text":"也會跟你說這個可能要會同監理機關"},{"start":7418.85,"end":7420.85,"text":"那監理機關就靠各縣市"},{"start":7420.85,"end":7422.85,"text":"監理站那三股那幾個"},{"start":7422.85,"end":7424.85,"text":"承辦科學他們也很辛苦你說他要"},{"start":7424.85,"end":7426.85,"text":"查到幾個案子針對這個我有跟交通部"},{"start":7426.85,"end":7428.85,"text":"所知過啦公務局"},{"start":7428.85,"end":7430.85,"text":"但是我拿到的成效其實我不好意思"},{"start":7430.85,"end":7432.85,"text":"在這邊講我覺得這個看起來"},{"start":7432.85,"end":7434.85,"text":"可能就是有點差距啦"},{"start":7434.85,"end":7436.85,"text":"所以我們覺得說是不是在"},{"start":7436.85,"end":7438.85,"text":"這個有關那個"},{"start":7439.56,"end":7441.56,"text":"對於那個監理套利的這部分"},{"start":7441.56,"end":7443.56,"text":"那委員會一樣會納入考量"},{"start":7443.56,"end":7445.56,"text":"以上報告謝謝"},{"start":7447.63,"end":7449.63,"text":"好謝謝林佩莉理事長的發言"},{"start":7450.43,"end":7452.43,"text":"那我們今天學者專家"},{"start":7452.43,"end":7454.43,"text":"軍營發言完畢"},{"start":7454.43,"end":7456.43,"text":"那所提書面資料列入記錄並開發公報"},{"start":7456.43,"end":7458.43,"text":"我們現在"},{"start":7458.14,"end":7460.14,"text":"休息10分鐘之後我們請行政單位來做回應"},{"start":7460.14,"end":7462.14,"text":"那我們現在休息"},{"start":7612.38,"end":7614.38,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":7658.95,"end":7660.95,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":7872.78,"end":7874.78,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8181.39,"end":8183.39,"text":"好謝謝我們現在繼續開會"},{"start":8185.74,"end":8187.74,"text":"我們現在先請機關代表發言"},{"start":8187.74,"end":8189.74,"text":"做回應及意見之表達"},{"start":8189.74,"end":8191.74,"text":"我們首先先請交通部"},{"start":8191.74,"end":8193.74,"text":"林國賢次長發言"},{"start":8201.16,"end":8203.16,"text":"好"},{"start":8231.16,"end":8233.16,"text":"學者專家跟單位團體"},{"start":8233.16,"end":8235.16,"text":"就好多議題"},{"start":8235.16,"end":8237.16,"text":"提出個別的看法"},{"start":8237.16,"end":8239.16,"text":"包含平台的管理責任"},{"start":8239.16,"end":8241.16,"text":"以及抽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為整個這個"},{"start":8452.16,"end":8454.16,"text":"數位平台轎車的這個系統"},{"start":8454.16,"end":8456.16,"text":"的主管機關是交通部"},{"start":8456.16,"end":8458.16,"text":"所以數發部未來"},{"start":8458.16,"end":8460.16,"text":"會來配合交通部做的一些決策"},{"start":8460.16,"end":8462.16,"text":"然後如果在這個數位平台"},{"start":8462.16,"end":8464.16,"text":"管理上或一些資安的議題上"},{"start":8464.16,"end":8466.16,"text":"需要數位部來提供一些"},{"start":8466.16,"end":8468.16,"text":"技術的一些資訊的話我們會"},{"start":8468.16,"end":8470.16,"text":"全力來配合"},{"start":8474.03,"end":8476.03,"text":"好謝謝我們楊次長"},{"start":8476.03,"end":8478.03,"text":"我跟次長補充一下就是"},{"start":8478.03,"end":8480.03,"text":"因為之前在立法院在質詢的時候"},{"start":8480.03,"end":8482.03,"text":"這個交通部說這個是數位部的事情"},{"start":8482.03,"end":8484.03,"text":"所以才邀請你們"},{"start":8484.03,"end":8486.03,"text":"沒關係我讓你們知道一下"},{"start":8486.03,"end":8488.03,"text":"好來接下來這個"},{"start":8488.03,"end":8490.03,"text":"經濟部我們要表達意見"},{"start":8491.62,"end":8493.62,"text":"我們請經濟部表達意見"},{"start":8504.96,"end":8506.96,"text":"主席"},{"start":8506.96,"end":8508.96,"text":"各位與會那個"},{"start":8508.96,"end":8510.96,"text":"各位長官各位先生大家好"},{"start":8510.96,"end":8512.96,"text":"經濟部第一次發言"},{"start":8512.96,"end":8514.96,"text":"那本次經濟部針對"},{"start":8514.58,"end":8516.58,"text":"討論提供主要針對"},{"start":8516.58,"end":8518.58,"text":"第二個就是外防堵壞的"},{"start":8518.63,"end":8520.63,"text":"跨國平台企業規避我國司法"},{"start":8520.63,"end":8522.63,"text":"追溯與租稅管轄是否應強制"},{"start":8523.76,"end":8525.76,"text":"國外平台業者與中華民國進來辦理分公室登記"},{"start":8525.76,"end":8527.76,"text":"並要求指派代表專責處理相關法律及稅務"},{"start":8527.76,"end":8529.76,"text":"事項此一同提供以外"},{"start":8529.76,"end":8531.76,"text":"應該還有本次在那個就是"},{"start":8535.88,"end":8537.88,"text":"大員所提出的網際網路"},{"start":8537.88,"end":8539.88,"text":"媒合客運服務管理條例"},{"start":8539.88,"end":8541.88,"text":"條案的第四條"},{"start":8541.88,"end":8543.88,"text":"國外平台業者與中華民國進來"},{"start":8543.88,"end":8545.88,"text":"經營網際網路"},{"start":8545.88,"end":8547.88,"text":"媒合客運服務應辦理分公室登記"},{"start":8547.88,"end":8549.88,"text":"並指派代表負責相關法律及"},{"start":8549.88,"end":8551.88,"text":"稅務事項的兩項議題"},{"start":8551.88,"end":8553.88,"text":"提供說明那因為目前就是依照"},{"start":8553.88,"end":8555.88,"text":"公司法第370條以下"},{"start":8555.88,"end":8557.88,"text":"針對外國公司如何來"},{"start":8557.88,"end":8559.88,"text":"台灣設立分公司的部分有相關的"},{"start":8559.88,"end":8561.88,"text":"規範所以說關於"},{"start":8561.88,"end":8563.88,"text":"就是其他的那個目的是主管機關"},{"start":8563.88,"end":8565.88,"text":"法令是否要求那個就是外國公司"},{"start":8565.88,"end":8567.88,"text":"在馬蟹狀況底下要來台灣"},{"start":8567.88,"end":8569.88,"text":"成立分公司的部分我們"},{"start":8569.88,"end":8571.88,"text":"尊重無論是大約會"},{"start":8571.88,"end":8573.88,"text":"或是內地市也主管機關這邊的那個"},{"start":8573.88,"end":8575.88,"text":"判單跟衡量以上"},{"start":8579.06,"end":8581.06,"text":"好謝謝我們投審室"},{"start":8582.03,"end":8584.03,"text":"那我們接下來看看那個請下內政部"},{"start":8584.03,"end":8586.03,"text":"內政部警政組交通組"},{"start":8587.89,"end":8589.89,"text":"陳曹建副組長"},{"start":8600.61,"end":8602.61,"text":"各位一位的學者"},{"start":8602.61,"end":8604.61,"text":"大家好"},{"start":8604.61,"end":8606.61,"text":"警事所對這個草案的內容"},{"start":8606.61,"end":8608.61,"text":"大概有兩點建議"},{"start":8608.61,"end":8610.61,"text":"第一就是法條第3條"},{"start":8610.61,"end":8612.61,"text":"平台駕駛只凌有"},{"start":8612.61,"end":8614.61,"text":"職業駕駛經平台名譽而提供"},{"start":8614.61,"end":8616.61,"text":"在客服務是個人"},{"start":8616.61,"end":8618.61,"text":"那為了避免"},{"start":8618.61,"end":8620.61,"text":"僅憑職業駕駛及客在客"},{"start":8620.61,"end":8622.61,"text":"無需受道路交通管理處"},{"start":8622.61,"end":8624.61,"text":"條例第37條是規範"},{"start":8624.61,"end":8626.61,"text":"只管理多道建議明確釐清"},{"start":8626.61,"end":8628.61,"text":"平台駕駛是否比照現行"},{"start":8631.07,"end":8633.07,"text":"避孽力駕駛人資格管理之一"},{"start":8633.07,"end":8635.07,"text":"這位宇宙人士"},{"start":8635.07,"end":8637.07,"text":"第二點就是有關那個"},{"start":8637.07,"end":8639.07,"text":"草案的第5條這個部分"},{"start":8639.98,"end":8641.98,"text":"平台業者應將"},{"start":8641.98,"end":8643.98,"text":"舉平台之行車軌跡以派"},{"start":8643.98,"end":8645.98,"text":"派單數據及時"},{"start":8645.98,"end":8647.98,"text":"接觸重要機關"},{"start":8647.98,"end":8649.98,"text":"資料應保存至少六個月"},{"start":8649.98,"end":8651.98,"text":"這個部分我們建議應該是保持一年以上"},{"start":8651.98,"end":8653.98,"text":"因為重大特殊"},{"start":8653.98,"end":8655.98,"text":"社屬級幫派組織毒品中毒造劑等"},{"start":8655.98,"end":8657.98,"text":"負荷性案件往往需要"},{"start":8657.98,"end":8659.98,"text":"更長的追查與分析時間"},{"start":8659.98,"end":8661.98,"text":"草案這個業業只保存期限"},{"start":8661.98,"end":8663.98,"text":"對於負荷案件的口號過短的行為"},{"start":8663.98,"end":8665.98,"text":"至於"},{"start":8665.98,"end":8667.98,"text":"也建議"},{"start":8669.61,"end":8671.61,"text":"延長保存期限為一年"},{"start":8671.61,"end":8673.61,"text":"另外建議增低平台業者"},{"start":8673.61,"end":8675.61,"text":"對司法檢查機關因振敗"},{"start":8675.61,"end":8677.61,"text":"行車案件或依法調起行車"},{"start":8677.61,"end":8679.61,"text":"軌跡以派單數據及時"},{"start":8679.61,"end":8681.61,"text":"應配合提供"},{"start":8681.61,"end":8683.61,"text":"並應建議24小時"},{"start":8683.61,"end":8685.61,"text":"及時調起專責操作"},{"start":8685.61,"end":8687.61,"text":"避力發生擄人"},{"start":8687.61,"end":8689.61,"text":"收取下等重大急迫行車案件"},{"start":8689.61,"end":8691.61,"text":"偵查人員得以依法"},{"start":8691.61,"end":8693.61,"text":"行車取得軌跡資料"},{"start":8693.61,"end":8695.61,"text":"掌握黃金就有時間"},{"start":8698.25,"end":8700.25,"text":"好謝謝我們楊組長陳組長"},{"start":8701.61,"end":8703.61,"text":"那麼接下來請法務部"},{"start":8704.39,"end":8706.39,"text":"楊警察官"},{"start":8721.08,"end":8723.08,"text":"主席各位"},{"start":8723.08,"end":8725.08,"text":"先進學者專家"},{"start":8725.08,"end":8727.08,"text":"大家好今天貴委員會召開"},{"start":8727.08,"end":8729.08,"text":"網際網路媒合客運"},{"start":8729.08,"end":8731.08,"text":"服務管理條例公聽會"},{"start":8731.08,"end":8733.08,"text":"本部應要列席"},{"start":8733.08,"end":8735.08,"text":"請就所列討論提綱提供意見"},{"start":8735.08,"end":8737.08,"text":"如下"},{"start":8737.08,"end":8739.08,"text":"有關討論提綱二"},{"start":8739.08,"end":8741.08,"text":"為了防堵跨國平台企業"},{"start":8741.08,"end":8743.08,"text":"規避我國司法追溯與"},{"start":8743.08,"end":8745.08,"text":"租稅管轄是否應"},{"start":8745.08,"end":8747.08,"text":"強制國外平台業者於中華民國"},{"start":8747.08,"end":8749.08,"text":"境內辦理分公司"},{"start":8749.08,"end":8753.08,"text":"並要求指派代表專責處理相關法律及稅務事項"},{"start":8753.08,"end":8755.08,"text":"的部分"},{"start":8755.08,"end":8757.08,"text":"國外平台業者若於中華民國境內"},{"start":8757.08,"end":8759.08,"text":"成立分公司"},{"start":8759.08,"end":8761.08,"text":"並指派代表專責處理法律"},{"start":8761.08,"end":8763.08,"text":"事項對於刑事案件"},{"start":8763.08,"end":8765.08,"text":"的調查取證"},{"start":8765.08,"end":8767.08,"text":"當有所避議有助於真實"},{"start":8767.08,"end":8769.08,"text":"發現本部競表贊同"},{"start":8769.08,"end":8771.08,"text":"至於租稅管轄部分"},{"start":8771.08,"end":8773.08,"text":"本部尊重稅務主管機關的"},{"start":8773.08,"end":8775.08,"text":"政策判斷及大院審議"},{"start":8775.08,"end":8777.08,"text":"是結果"},{"start":8776.4,"end":8778.4,"text":"還有關提綱是在"},{"start":8778.4,"end":8780.4,"text":"重大交通事故與刑事案件當中"},{"start":8780.4,"end":8782.4,"text":"為了保障乘客安全與"},{"start":8782.4,"end":8784.4,"text":"駕駛權益是否因民定平台"},{"start":8784.4,"end":8786.4,"text":"業者視為實質庫儲並"},{"start":8786.4,"end":8788.4,"text":"附連帶損害培養責任"},{"start":8789.59,"end":8791.59,"text":"以及這個針對平台駕駛"},{"start":8791.59,"end":8793.59,"text":"人的實質審查義務定期"},{"start":8793.59,"end":8795.59,"text":"教育訓練以及"},{"start":8795.59,"end":8797.59,"text":"不可抗力因素之中斷行程通報"},{"start":8797.59,"end":8799.59,"text":"與安置措施因應"},{"start":8799.59,"end":8801.59,"text":"如何具體規範部分"},{"start":8803.28,"end":8806.28,"text":"按於基於無責任及無處罰的憲法原則"},{"start":8806.28,"end":8808.28,"text":"人民僅依自己的刑事違法"},{"start":8808.28,"end":8810.28,"text":"且有責行為而受刑事處罰"},{"start":8810.28,"end":8812.28,"text":"法律不得規定人民"},{"start":8812.28,"end":8814.28,"text":"為他人的刑事違法行為"},{"start":8814.28,"end":8816.28,"text":"承擔刑事責任"},{"start":8816.28,"end":8819.28,"text":"司法院的釋字687號解釋"},{"start":8819.28,"end":8821.28,"text":"已經有這個規範"},{"start":8822.03,"end":8824.03,"text":"平台業者"},{"start":8824.02,"end":8826.02,"text":"如果自己無刑事違法"},{"start":8826.02,"end":8828.02,"text":"且有責行為的話"},{"start":8828.02,"end":8830.02,"text":"尚難引起平台業者的身份"},{"start":8830.02,"end":8832.02,"text":"而使其就駕駛人之犯罪行為"},{"start":8832.86,"end":8834.86,"text":"連帶復刑是責任"},{"start":8835.07,"end":8837.07,"text":"那關於這個民法"},{"start":8837.07,"end":8839.07,"text":"188條第一項前段的規定"},{"start":8839.07,"end":8841.07,"text":"受僱人因執行職務不法侵害"},{"start":8841.07,"end":8843.07,"text":"他人之權利者"},{"start":8843.07,"end":8845.07,"text":"由僱用人與嫌疑人連帶負損害賠償責任"},{"start":8845.07,"end":8847.07,"text":"那他的立法意指主要在於說"},{"start":8847.07,"end":8849.07,"text":"這個僱用人"},{"start":8849.07,"end":8851.07,"text":"運用受僱人為其執行職務"},{"start":8851.07,"end":8853.07,"text":"而擴張其活動範圍及事業版圖"},{"start":8853.07,"end":8855.07,"text":"來獲取利益增加營收"},{"start":8855.07,"end":8857.07,"text":"那基於損益監規之原則"},{"start":8857.07,"end":8859.07,"text":"自應加重其責任"},{"start":8859.07,"end":8861.07,"text":"使其連帶承受"},{"start":8861.07,"end":8863.07,"text":"受僱人不法行為所造成的損害"},{"start":8865.6,"end":8867.6,"text":"那只是說呢在我國的司法"},{"start":8867.6,"end":8869.6,"text":"實務跟學說上啊"},{"start":8869.6,"end":8871.6,"text":"這個平台業者是否屬於"},{"start":8871.6,"end":8873.6,"text":"上述的受僱人還有不同的見解"},{"start":8873.6,"end":8875.6,"text":"那是否以專法明定其因"},{"start":8875.6,"end":8877.6,"text":"負連帶民事賠償責任"},{"start":8878.63,"end":8883.63,"text":"市社消費者權益道路安全及產業發展等多種考量"},{"start":8883.63,"end":8887.63,"text":"本部尊重相關目的是主管機關的政治判斷及大量審議的結果"},{"start":8888.72,"end":8892.72,"text":"關於平台對於駕乘實質審查義務等因物和具體規範"},{"start":8893.41,"end":8897.41,"text":"敬請徵詢相關主管機關及專家學者的專業意見"},{"start":8897.53,"end":8899.53,"text":"那以上為本部的報告謝謝"},{"start":8902.56,"end":8904.56,"text":"好謝謝法務部楊思宇檢察官"},{"start":8905.54,"end":8907.54,"text":"我們現在請行政院"},{"start":8908.11,"end":8910.11,"text":"主力總處公共預算處"},{"start":8910.11,"end":8912.11,"text":"吳明修章委"},{"start":8924.8,"end":8926.8,"text":"主席各位議會先進大家好"},{"start":8926.8,"end":8928.8,"text":"我是行政院主力總處代表"},{"start":8928.8,"end":8934.8,"text":"那本草案和我們主力總處有關的主要是設置計程車產業轉型基金"},{"start":8934.8,"end":8936.8,"text":"那依照財政紀律法的規定"},{"start":8936.8,"end":8940.8,"text":"新設基金必須具備政府既有收入以外"},{"start":8940.8,"end":8942.8,"text":"新增而且適足的財源"},{"start":8942.8,"end":8948.8,"text":"那考量本草案新增的財源為向平台業者徵收數位服務捐"},{"start":8948.8,"end":8950.8,"text":"那這個財源是否長期穩定徵收"},{"start":8952.3,"e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