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ότι"},{"start":1791.7,"end":1793.22,"text":"好 現在開始開會"},{"start":1793.22,"end":1797.54,"text":"那我們各位學者參加 各位同仁及各位媒體的先進"},{"start":1797.54,"end":1803.18,"text":"今天是立法院第十一屆修憲委員會所召開的第二場公聽會"},{"start":1803.18,"end":1805.38,"text":"那本次公聽會討論的議題是"},{"start":1805.38,"end":1809.7,"text":"憲法徵修條文第四條第一項第二款修正案"},{"start":1809.7,"end":1815.78,"text":"首先一 三地原住民 平地原住民分類是否仍具有憲法上的正當性"},{"start":1815.78,"end":1818.18,"text":"二 取消三地平地分類"},{"start":1818.18,"end":1822.66,"text":"原住民六席 代表在憲法中的代表原則"},{"start":1822.66,"end":1828.5800000000002,"text":"三 三地平地原住民分類退出憲法後 整體的法制應如何銜接"},{"start":1828.5800000000002,"end":1832.1000000000001,"text":"四 徵修條文之文字應如何表述"},{"start":1832.1000000000001,"end":1835.94,"text":"詳細資料請各位委員參閱桌上的文件"},{"start":1835.94,"end":1839.42,"text":"那本次公聽會我們邀請到十一位學者專家"},{"start":1839.42,"end":1841.54,"text":"非常感謝各位的出席"},{"start":1841.54,"end":1844.18,"text":"希望能藉由這個開放理性的平台"},{"start":1844.18,"end":1847.22,"text":"進一步了解各界對此議題的看法及建議"},{"start":1847.22,"end":1852.02,"text":"稍後將請各位學者專家代表就此議題給予我們寶貴的意見"},{"start":1852.02,"end":1855.58,"text":"那現在說明今日公聽會的進行程序"},{"start":1855.58,"end":1859.94,"text":"首先由學者專家一到會順序發言"},{"start":1859.94,"end":1860.74,"text":"每位學者"},{"start":1861.24,"end":1864.28,"text":"八分鐘在三位學者專家發言後"},{"start":1864.28,"end":1867.88,"text":"依本院委員登記發言的順序"},{"start":1867.88,"end":1870.56,"text":"安排一位本院委員發言"},{"start":1870.56,"end":1872.2,"text":"每位委員五分鐘"},{"start":1872.2,"end":1879.2,"text":"依此方式交替進行到學者專家與登記發言的本院委員均發言完畢為止"},{"start":1879.2,"end":1883.28,"text":"最後再次時間許可進行第二輪發言採自由發言"},{"start":1883.28,"end":1884.8,"text":"每位三分鐘"},{"start":1884.8,"end":1889.48,"text":"那現在我們來介紹今天出席的學者專家代表"},{"start":1889.52,"end":1891.48,"text":"首先到場的是第一位"},{"start":1891.48,"end":1897.32,"text":"財團法人臺灣原住民文教基金會蔡中涵董事長"},{"start":1897.32,"end":1898.04,"text":"歡迎您"},{"start":1898.04,"end":1899.1200000000001,"text":"有我們的先進"},{"start":1900.26,"end":1904.7,"text":"第二位是原住民族委員會前主任委員林江奕前主委"},{"start":1904.7,"end":1905.14,"text":"歡迎您"},{"start":1907.03,"end":1912.91,"text":"第三位是東華大學民族發展與社會工作學系"},{"start":1912.91,"end":1914.51,"text":"陳章培倫副教授"},{"start":1915.18,"end":1917.46,"text":"應該也是前副主委"},{"start":1917.46,"end":1922.3000000000002,"text":"第四位是東海大學日本區域研究中心陳永峰教授"},{"start":1922.3000000000002,"end":1922.74,"text":"歡迎您"},{"start":1924.21,"end":1929.8500000000001,"text":"第五位是彰化師大公共事務與公民教育學系劉兆龍副教授"},{"start":1929.8500000000001,"end":1930.25,"text":"歡迎您"},{"start":1932.2,"end":1938.32,"text":"第六位是臺灣基督長老教會東部排灣中會嘉然教會"},{"start":1940.17,"end":1944.3300000000002,"text":"那個牧師應該是最早來的"},{"start":1946.21,"end":1951.21,"text":"第七位是政治大學民族學系教授兼系主任關大偉"},{"start":1951.21,"end":1952.25,"text":"關教授歡迎您"},{"start":1953.22,"end":1959.22,"text":"第八位是東華大學人文社會科學院院長"},{"start":1959.22,"end":1960.22,"text":"那個阿V"},{"start":1962.72,"end":1965.24,"text":"教授阿V教授都叫阿V慣了"},{"start":1965.24,"end":1965.68,"text":"對不起"},{"start":1966.36,"end":1967.04,"text":"第九位是"},{"start":1967.94,"end":1971.78,"text":"第二屆國民大會代表賴崑岑先生"},{"start":1973.3,"end":1978.9,"text":"第十位是法律輔助基金會蘭陽分會吳欣陽律師"},{"start":1978.9,"end":1979.46,"text":"歡迎您"},{"start":1980.07,"end":1986.47,"text":"最後是我們前東華大學原住民民族學院院長施政鋒教授"},{"start":1986.47,"end":1987.3899999999999,"text":"他還沒到"},{"start":1991.25,"end":1993.37,"text":"我們今天的順序"},{"start":1993.37,"end":1994.97,"text":"首先第一位是"},{"start":1995.97,"end":1998.17,"text":"勞勞教的牧師"},{"start":1998.17,"end":2002.37,"text":"那我們請第一位到場的牧師發言時間八分鐘"},{"start":2002.37,"end":2002.61,"text":"請"},{"start":2005.43,"end":2006.75,"text":"可以在發言台前面"},{"start":2006.75,"end":2007.63,"text":"對對對"},{"start":2009.91,"end":2013.03,"text":"如果有使用簡報系統的請到前面"},{"start":2013.03,"end":2014.23,"text":"檔案在前面來操作"},{"start":2014.23,"end":2014.5500000000002,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":2027.14,"end":2028.3400000000001,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":2029.01,"end":2033.69,"text":"各位我們專家學者們所有的一會的記者"},{"start":2034.65,"end":2037.41,"text":"以及我們立法院的我們所有的長官"},{"start":2038.45,"end":2040.0900000000001,"text":"大家平安"},{"start":2042.6999999999998,"end":2043.98,"text":"我一大早"},{"start":2043.98,"end":2047.06,"text":"他還沒有還沒有八點我就在門口"},{"start":2047.06,"end":2048.58,"text":"那當時他們說還沒有開"},{"start":2049.8199999999997,"end":2055.1,"text":"可能在山上做牧師的一大堆要去巡視的羊群"},{"start":2055.1,"end":2056.18,"text":"所以已經習慣了"},{"start":2057.4,"end":2058.56,"text":"好在這個地方"},{"start":2058.56,"end":2060.52,"text":"居然是第一個發言"},{"start":2060.52,"end":2063.2000000000003,"text":"我就講我們原住民的原有"},{"start":2064.38,"end":2067.2200000000003,"text":"我先做介紹"},{"start":2068.05,"end":2073.13,"text":"一九九四年的三月一號到八月底"},{"start":2074.26,"end":2078.86,"text":"我擔任臺灣原住民主憲法運動聯盟的執行幹事"},{"start":2080.35,"end":2082.5899999999997,"text":"推動了我們正名動"},{"start":2083.37,"end":2086.85,"text":"我想當時候的立法委員蔡仲涵"},{"start":2086.85,"end":2089.37,"text":"我們立委還有我們賴光誠國代"},{"start":2090.02,"end":2091.5,"text":"都在當中"},{"start":2092.37,"end":2098.13,"text":"當時候的學生時代的關大偉教授也是在當中"},{"start":2098.13,"end":2098.81,"text":"是我們"},{"start":2099.53,"end":2104.61,"text":"在那個時期大家非常的熱心在推動"},{"start":2104.61,"end":2112.61,"text":"所以我站在這裡也可以說是代表前聯盟來做一些這個小小的一個報告"},{"start":2113.55,"end":2115.23,"text":"那原住民的稱呼"},{"start":2115.23,"end":2115.8700000000003,"text":"他是"},{"start":2116.43,"end":2120.99,"text":"來源在原自於一九八四年的十二月二十九號"},{"start":2121.73,"end":2124.33,"text":"在馬介一院的九樓成立"},{"start":2124.33,"end":2125.4500000000003,"text":"屆年時期"},{"start":2127.55,"end":2131.9500000000003,"text":"而第一個人民團體叫做臺灣原住民主全力出盡會"},{"start":2132.91,"end":2134.99,"text":"臺灣原住民主全力出盡會"},{"start":2135.91,"end":2137.71,"text":"簡稱為ATA"},{"start":2137.71,"end":2138.75,"text":"就是研全會"},{"start":2139.49,"end":2142.1699999999996,"text":"從那個時候就開始推動正名"},{"start":2143.0099999999998,"end":2144.73,"text":"我們推動土地權"},{"start":2144.73,"end":2145.5699999999997,"text":"自治權"},{"start":2146.89,"end":2150.49,"text":"甚至全國性的所謂民主議會的成立"},{"start":2151.32,"end":2153.56,"text":"然後積極的參與國際"},{"start":2154.18,"end":2156.18,"text":"所有關原住民的失誤"},{"start":2156.18,"end":2157.3799999999997,"text":"特別是"},{"start":2157.3799999999997,"end":2158.98,"text":"當時候聯合國"},{"start":2159.58,"end":2163.74,"text":"人權委員會正在召開世界原住民人權宣言"},{"start":2164.86,"end":2166.34,"text":"一九九九一年"},{"start":2166.91,"end":2168.1099999999997,"text":"我很榮幸"},{"start":2168.1099999999997,"end":2170.0299999999997,"text":"臺灣退出聯合國以來"},{"start":2170.0299999999997,"end":2171.5099999999998,"text":"我第一個被邀請"},{"start":2172.12,"end":2175.68,"text":"以臺灣原權會的會長的身份參加"},{"start":2175.68,"end":2181.84,"text":"在日內瓦召開的聯合國人權宣言的一個草案的研討會"},{"start":2182.71,"end":2185.75,"text":"那時候我的秘書長是一將主委"},{"start":2187.5099999999998,"end":2189.23,"text":"所以在那個時候"},{"start":2189.23,"end":2192.1499999999996,"text":"全世界所有的原住民都在"},{"start":2192.1499999999996,"end":2195.23,"text":"朝中在世界原住民的人權"},{"start":2195.23,"end":2197.0299999999997,"text":"特別是在各個地方"},{"start":2198.4,"end":2201.04,"text":"被忽視他們土地權"},{"start":2201.04,"end":2203.88,"text":"自治權相關的這些權利"},{"start":2203.88,"end":2204.84,"text":"所以"},{"start":2204.84,"end":2207.04,"text":"透過聯合國來草擬"},{"start":2207.04,"end":2210.08,"text":"所謂的世界人權宣言"},{"start":2210.08,"end":2212.08,"text":"希望各國都能夠尊重"},{"start":2212.08,"end":2214.92,"text":"在當地原來住在那裡的一個住民"},{"start":2215.66,"end":2216.8599999999997,"text":"是這樣來的"},{"start":2216.8599999999997,"end":2219.98,"text":"所以參加過兩次1991跟1992年"},{"start":2222.17,"end":2225.13,"text":"所以在從這個時候開始"},{"start":2225.13,"end":2227.4500000000003,"text":"原權會的推動也影響到"},{"start":2228.37,"end":2231.6099999999997,"text":"當時候的臺灣基督長老教會"},{"start":2233,"end":2236.2400000000002,"text":"因為多數的原權會的成員"},{"start":2236.2400000000002,"end":2239.68,"text":"有一半以上是臺灣基督長老教會的神職人員"},{"start":2240.52,"end":2241.7599999999998,"text":"傳刀師牧師"},{"start":2242.38,"end":2243.42,"text":"還有一些長老"},{"start":2244.91,"end":2247.5499999999997,"text":"所以直接影響到臺灣基督長老教會"},{"start":2248.34,"end":2250.1000000000004,"text":"所以那時候剛好"},{"start":2250.1000000000004,"end":2254.1800000000003,"text":"我本身是臺北那時候的三地學生中心"},{"start":2254.1800000000003,"end":2257.86,"text":"直接在會議當中就"},{"start":2257.86,"end":2261.5,"text":"建議修改臺北原住民大專學生中心"},{"start":2262.38,"end":2267.7400000000002,"text":"然後以前的三地先到委員會改成原住民先到委員會"},{"start":2269.4,"end":2272.1600000000003,"text":"臺灣基督長老教會在總會議大家都見浪"},{"start":2272.85,"end":2275.81,"text":"以後不叫三地先到委員會"},{"start":2275.81,"end":2277.65,"text":"是叫原住民先到委員會"},{"start":2278.27,"end":2285.19,"text":"這是臺灣基督長老教會正式延續原權會的一個推動"},{"start":2286.98,"end":2288.82,"text":"所以1993年"},{"start":2290.15,"end":2293.23,"text":"聯合國他通過了世界人權宣言"},{"start":2293.8,"end":2297.52,"text":"剛好我本人在菲律賓的Ziver大學在那邊進修"},{"start":2299.38,"end":2302.94,"text":"所以在世界人權宣言宣布之後"},{"start":2302.94,"end":2309.1,"text":"希望各國都能夠尊敬尊重在地的原住民"},{"start":2309.1,"end":2310.62,"text":"是這樣來的"},{"start":2311.45,"end":2318.33,"text":"那我們原住民在憲法條款路線運動是在1994年"},{"start":2319.43,"end":2321.5099999999998,"text":"1994年的"},{"start":2323.11,"end":2328.03,"text":"4月10號在文化園區召開了文化會議"},{"start":2328.03,"end":2329.8300000000004,"text":"當時候的李登輝總統"},{"start":2331.05,"end":2334.53,"text":"因為我們之前有接近過他"},{"start":2334.53,"end":2336.4500000000003,"text":"私底下有找過李登輝總統"},{"start":2336.4500000000003,"end":2341.13,"text":"希望李登輝總統來幫忙我們在推動的工作"},{"start":2341.13,"end":2345.3300000000004,"text":"事後在背後在推動的就是原權會的一些人"},{"start":2346.05,"end":2349.61,"text":"影響了李登輝在那時候4月10號的文化會議"},{"start":2349.61,"end":2350.9700000000003,"text":"通稱原住民"},{"start":2350.9700000000003,"end":2353.57,"text":"從那個時候以來他也召集台派的國大代表"},{"start":2354.16,"end":2358.08,"text":"希望在國大會議的時候能夠支持原住民的條款"},{"start":2359.31,"end":2360.75,"text":"是這樣來的"},{"start":2362.19,"end":2363.35,"text":"1994年的"},{"start":2364.15,"end":2365.39,"text":"3月1號"},{"start":2366.11,"end":2368.15,"text":"我剛剛從國外回來"},{"start":2368.93,"end":2372.73,"text":"我們正式成立台灣原住民主憲法運動聯盟"},{"start":2372.73,"end":2376.45,"text":"然後這個聯盟邀請我做專任的幹事"},{"start":2377.05,"end":2378.25,"text":"執行幹事"},{"start":2378.25,"end":2382.13,"text":"那時候我們佔據在民進黨中央黨部的原民部"},{"start":2383.02,"end":2384.46,"text":"在那裡我做專任"},{"start":2384.46,"end":2386.1,"text":"他5個月的時間"},{"start":2386.1,"end":2387.66,"text":"我這個助理叫路子"},{"start":2388.43,"end":2390.47,"text":"我們推動了從策劃"},{"start":2390.9,"end":2393.98,"text":"然後環島說明包括這個募款"},{"start":2394.56,"end":2396.96,"text":"還有幾次的草山運動"},{"start":2398,"end":2400,"text":"就是我們兩個人在工作"},{"start":2400,"end":2402.64,"text":"大部分都是我們兩個人在工作的"},{"start":2402.64,"end":2405.72,"text":"所以這個推動的工作"},{"start":2405.72,"end":2408.8,"text":"也感謝所有各界的執子"},{"start":2408.8,"end":2411.6,"text":"不管是我們特別是我們專家學者"},{"start":2411.6,"end":2415.44,"text":"那時候很多的社會輿論的這個專家學者"},{"start":2415.44,"end":2418,"text":"給很大的一個助力"},{"start":2418,"end":2420.64,"text":"不管是中研院的或是一般的教授"},{"start":2421.58,"end":2423.38,"text":"我們也謝謝我們所有的"},{"start":2423.38,"end":2425.62,"text":"台灣基督教會"},{"start":2425.62,"end":2427.5,"text":"還有我們學生團體"},{"start":2427.5,"end":2431.74,"text":"特別是台北的大專學生的參與"},{"start":2431.74,"end":2434.5,"text":"所以那個時候非常熱絡"},{"start":2434.5,"end":2437.3,"text":"因此在1994年的7月28號"},{"start":2438.27,"end":2438.91,"text":"這一天"},{"start":2439.79,"end":2441.39,"text":"剛好在國民大會"},{"start":2441.39,"end":2442.67,"text":"在開會的當中"},{"start":2444.61,"end":2447.8900000000003,"text":"因為這個我們有好幾個版本"},{"start":2447.8900000000003,"end":2451.09,"text":"有這個我們自己剪出來的版本"},{"start":2451.09,"end":2454.01,"text":"我們交給民進黨團來幫我們提議"},{"start":2454.6,"end":2457.16,"text":"那最後通過的部分"},{"start":2457.91,"end":2461.19,"text":"就是因為國民黨的版本"},{"start":2461.19,"end":2462.5899999999997,"text":"他們跟我講說"},{"start":2462.5899999999997,"end":2464.47,"text":"嚴祝銀三個字他們願意接受"},{"start":2465.17,"end":2466.61,"text":"那民進黨也同意"},{"start":2466.61,"end":2468.81,"text":"我們那個時候就這樣正式"},{"start":2469.42,"end":2471.38,"text":"把原住民的條款"},{"start":2471.38,"end":2472.58,"text":"三地"},{"start":2472.58,"end":2474.82,"text":"三包改成原住民"},{"start":2474.82,"end":2476.2200000000003,"text":"就是這樣來的"},{"start":2476.2200000000003,"end":2478.26,"text":"但是我們只是成功一半"},{"start":2478.26,"end":2480.1800000000003,"text":"因為我們要求是台灣原住民組"},{"start":2480.1800000000003,"end":2482.9,"text":"比較集體權的這個權力"},{"start":2482.9,"end":2485.66,"text":"所以我們今天繼續要修憲的"},{"start":2485.66,"end":2487.38,"text":"希望能夠擴大"},{"start":2487.38,"end":2490.26,"text":"廢除那個平地或是三地這個字"},{"start":2490.26,"end":2491.58,"text":"而二分法"},{"start":2491.58,"end":2493.58,"text":"成立原住民組"},{"start":2493.58,"end":2495.34,"text":"這樣的一個通稱"},{"start":2495.34,"end":2497.86,"text":"這樣的一個比較集體權的權力"},{"start":2497.86,"end":2499.38,"text":"以上是我的報告 謝謝"},{"start":2501.08,"end":2502.44,"text":"好 謝謝牧師"},{"start":2502.44,"end":2504.68,"text":"接下來我們請登記發言"},{"start":2504.68,"end":2508.44,"text":"缺乏專家到場第二位的林江毅林前主委"},{"start":2508.44,"end":2508.92,"text":"請"},{"start":2524.8,"end":2525.92,"text":"主席"},{"start":2526.91,"end":2530.47,"text":"我們大宴的這個修憲委員會的各位同仁"},{"start":2532.42,"end":2535.46,"text":"參加公聽會的各位學者專家"},{"start":2535.46,"end":2537.14,"text":"大家平安 大家早"},{"start":2539.45,"end":2540.81,"text":"今天非常的榮幸"},{"start":2540.81,"end":2542.33,"text":"有機會受邀"},{"start":2543.33,"end":2546.85,"text":"針對我們的憲法徵修條文的第四條"},{"start":2548.07,"end":2549.19,"text":"第一項第二款"},{"start":2549.86,"end":2551.6200000000003,"text":"這個修憲的課題"},{"start":2553.7599999999998,"end":2555.8399999999997,"text":"來提出個人的一個潛艦"},{"start":2555.8399999999997,"end":2557.6,"text":"覺得非常的榮幸"},{"start":2560.05,"end":2560.8500000000004,"text":"首先"},{"start":2562.84,"end":2564.32,"text":"我要特別提出"},{"start":2564.32,"end":2565.5600000000004,"text":"我特別辭職出"},{"start":2568.32,"end":2570.76,"text":"憲法徵修條文的第四條"},{"start":2571.92,"end":2573.12,"text":"第一項的第二款"},{"start":2574.45,"end":2580.0899999999997,"text":"雖然規範的是我們原住民族立法委員顯出的配置跟名額"},{"start":2582.13,"end":2583.65,"text":"但是它的屬性"},{"start":2585.06,"end":2587.14,"text":"是目前原住民參政"},{"start":2588.74,"end":2591.06,"text":"最高的未接待的一個法案"},{"start":2593.83,"end":2596.63,"text":"雖然它的內容明定這個立法委員"},{"start":2596.63,"end":2598.31,"text":"區分為平地原住民"},{"start":2599.61,"end":2601.09,"text":"三地原住民"},{"start":2601.73,"end":2602.53,"text":"各三人"},{"start":2604.55,"end":2605.4700000000003,"text":"其實"},{"start":2606.73,"end":2608.81,"text":"對它的下未接的法例"},{"start":2610.02,"end":2611.66,"text":"例如地方制度法"},{"start":2612.58,"end":2614.74,"text":"公子人眼玄機罷免法"},{"start":2616.16,"end":2619.04,"text":"還有其他的相關的行政法規"},{"start":2622.09,"end":2624.57,"text":"都有很高度的基數力"},{"start":2625.68,"end":2628.68,"text":"所以它的地位非常非常的重要"},{"start":2632.31,"end":2634.39,"text":"另外我也要特別指出"},{"start":2635.23,"end":2637.91,"text":"有關原住民族的參政權"},{"start":2639.91,"end":2641.15,"text":"明定在"},{"start":2641.15,"end":2643.23,"text":"徵修條文的第十條"},{"start":2643.23,"end":2644.23,"text":"第十二項"},{"start":2645.54,"end":2647.3,"text":"國家英裔"},{"start":2647.94,"end":2649.2200000000003,"text":"民主的意願"},{"start":2649.97,"end":2650.93,"text":"保障"},{"start":2650.93,"end":2653.81,"text":"原住民族的地位跟政治參與"},{"start":2656.7,"end":2657.62,"text":"所以呢"},{"start":2657.62,"end":2658.62,"text":"我們要理解"},{"start":2659.21,"end":2662.17,"text":"保障原住民族的政治參與"},{"start":2663.8,"end":2666.84,"text":"無論是在憲法中制定原住民的法案"},{"start":2667.82,"end":2670.26,"text":"或是現行的法案做一個修正"},{"start":2671.53,"end":2673.73,"text":"在程序上面"},{"start":2676.12,"end":2679.44,"text":"我們要兼顧到國家英裔民主意願"},{"start":2680.2599999999998,"end":2681.74,"text":"這樣的一個規定"},{"start":2681.74,"end":2683.54,"text":"很慎重的處理"},{"start":2684.71,"end":2686.03,"text":"才比較符合"},{"start":2686.62,"end":2688.2999999999997,"text":"現行的法制"},{"start":2695.59,"end":2698.23,"text":"這種憲法的規定"},{"start":2699.81,"end":2700.85,"text":"更精神"},{"start":2701.09,"end":2703.73,"text":"並不是我們國內所獨有"},{"start":2707.22,"end":2709.4599999999996,"text":"我在這裡簡單舉兩個例子"},{"start":2710.46,"end":2711.3,"text":"第一個例子"},{"start":2712.69,"end":2714.85,"text":"在2013年的6月5號"},{"start":2716.11,"end":2718.83,"text":"美國地區的國際組織大會"},{"start":2720.75,"end":2724.43,"text":"就美洲原住民族權力宣言的草案"},{"start":2725.95,"end":2727.91,"text":"第16條也明定"},{"start":2729.05,"end":2731.9300000000003,"text":"任何國家都有關原住民族"},{"start":2731.9300000000003,"end":2734.05,"text":"獲取其利益之誠信"},{"start":2735.67,"end":2739.11,"text":"應該要確保原住民族的法律之前"},{"start":2740.08,"end":2741.12,"text":"有尊嚴"},{"start":2741.75,"end":2743.15,"text":"且平等地"},{"start":2744.32,"end":2745.52,"text":"充分"},{"start":2745.8,"end":2746.8,"text":"闡述"},{"start":2747.48,"end":2748.52,"text":"來進行"},{"start":2750.4,"end":2752.44,"text":"所以而且還可以"},{"start":2753.58,"end":2756.62,"text":"用這個民族的語言來表達"},{"start":2759.72,"end":2762.04,"text":"第二個例子我們看看歐洲的"},{"start":2763.08,"end":2765.12,"text":"原住民政策的鮮豔"},{"start":2767.35,"end":2768.35,"text":"他也"},{"start":2768.5499999999997,"end":2769.5499999999997,"text":"民視"},{"start":2770.38,"end":2771.62,"text":"原住民族"},{"start":2772.32,"end":2774.56,"text":"以特定的議題"},{"start":2775.95,"end":2778.5899999999997,"text":"要站在主導的地位"},{"start":2781.27,"end":2782.47,"text":"而且要確保"},{"start":2782.79,"end":2784.95,"text":"他的充分的參與跟自由"},{"start":2785.99,"end":2788.2299999999996,"text":"事先且知情的同意"},{"start":2790.11,"end":2791.15,"text":"所以說"},{"start":2792.27,"end":2794.83,"text":"對原住民族重大潛意的變動"},{"start":2795.48,"end":2797.72,"text":"像現在我們就是面對這個問題"},{"start":2800.4,"end":2802.64,"text":"我們一定要在程序上面"},{"start":2803.87,"end":2805.87,"text":"讓原住民"},{"start":2805.87,"end":2808.19,"text":"能夠親手表達他們的意願"},{"start":2809.03,"end":2811.27,"text":"已經是普世的一個價值"},{"start":2816.91,"end":2817.91,"text":"我們看看"},{"start":2817.91,"end":2820.1099999999997,"text":"目前大宴的修行委員會"},{"start":2820.98,"end":2823.18,"text":"這個推動憲法徵求條文"},{"start":2823.18,"end":2824.18,"text":"第四條第一項"},{"start":2824.86,"end":2825.9,"text":"目前"},{"start":2825.99,"end":2826.99,"text":"正在處理"},{"start":2826.99,"end":2829.1899999999996,"text":"推動修正的工作"},{"start":2836.86,"end":2838.46,"text":"但是我們所見的"},{"start":2838.46,"end":2840.46,"text":"我們現在看到的這個資料"},{"start":2841.0099999999998,"end":2844.41,"text":"只有我們兩位原住民的這個委員的版本"},{"start":2844.41,"end":2845.41,"text":"還有我們"},{"start":2846.61,"end":2847.61,"text":"委員會的"},{"start":2847.61,"end":2850.4100000000003,"text":"提供給我們的一些提綱的這個資料"},{"start":2851.64,"end":2854.44,"text":"我都覺得都顯得非常的單薄"},{"start":2854.44,"end":2855.44,"text":"非常的單薄"},{"start":2857.68,"end":2858.9199999999996,"text":"這個程序上"},{"start":2859.57,"end":2863.77,"text":"國家英語民族院保障原住民族的地位跟政治參與"},{"start":2863.77,"end":2864.77,"text":"從這個角度"},{"start":2867.14,"end":2868.18,"text":"來看"},{"start":2869.02,"end":2870.06,"text":"感覺上"},{"start":2872.9,"end":2876.14,"text":"它有很多的地方不夠完備跟周延"},{"start":2876.75,"end":2878.75,"text":"我是希望能夠加以"},{"start":2878.75,"end":2880.35,"text":"補正來辦理"},{"start":2880.35,"end":2881.35,"text":"這是第一點"},{"start":2884.24,"end":2885.2799999999997,"text":"第二個部分"},{"start":2886.02,"end":2887.02,"text":"報告主席"},{"start":2887.02,"end":2890.02,"text":"我們的時間可以給我多一點嗎"},{"start":2890.02,"end":2892.02,"text":"我總是把它講完嘛 好不好"},{"start":2895.31,"end":2896.35,"text":"第二點"},{"start":2897.7799999999997,"end":2899.18,"text":"我要針對我們大院"},{"start":2899.18,"end":2901.18,"text":"提供給我們今天公聽會的"},{"start":2901.18,"end":2902.18,"text":"討論提綱"},{"start":2903.91,"end":2905.35,"text":"表達我個人"},{"start":2906.99,"end":2908.43,"text":"提綱的"},{"start":2909.65,"end":2911.09,"text":"還有我們兩位"},{"start":2912.27,"end":2916.71,"text":"原住民的委員提出來的草案的版本"},{"start":2917.97,"end":2920.41,"text":"想表達我個人的一個看法"},{"start":2923.4900000000002,"end":2924.4900000000002,"text":"首先"},{"start":2924.4900000000002,"end":2926.4900000000002,"text":"我們委員會提供給我們的"},{"start":2927.3,"end":2929.7400000000002,"text":"公聽會的四個提綱"},{"start":2931.89,"end":2934.33,"text":"我個人的潛艦認為"},{"start":2934.68,"end":2936.12,"text":"第一個提綱"},{"start":2936.65,"end":2938.09,"text":"第二個提綱"},{"start":2939,"end":2941.44,"text":"其實就是決定了"},{"start":2941.8,"end":2943.2400000000002,"text":"這個修正案"},{"start":2944.48,"end":2946.92,"text":"最為核心的"},{"start":2947.59,"end":2949.03,"text":"一個問題"},{"start":2949.55,"end":2950.55,"text":"第一個提綱"},{"start":2950.55,"end":2951.55,"text":"跟第二個提綱"},{"start":2953.01,"end":2955.01,"text":"是這個修正案最為核心的一個問題"},{"start":2955.01,"end":2957.01,"text":"後面的兩個提綱"},{"start":2957.01,"end":2959.01,"text":"其實是一個立法技術的一個問題"},{"start":2963.86,"end":2965.86,"text":"我們在座的可能都學者專家"},{"start":2965.86,"end":2967.86,"text":"他們一定"},{"start":2970,"end":2971,"text":"更仔細"},{"start":2971,"end":2972,"text":"更有研究"},{"start":2972.24,"end":2974.68,"text":"我們每個人的看法可能不同"},{"start":2975.7,"end":2978.14,"text":"所以我可能要很抱歉的說出我個人"},{"start":2979.62,"end":2983.06,"text":"對這個提綱的一個理解跟認知"},{"start":2983.89,"end":2986.33,"text":"跟大家做一個報告"},{"start":2986.9900000000002,"end":2988.9900000000002,"text":"我想我把看了之後"},{"start":2988.9900000000002,"end":2990.9900000000002,"text":"歸那三個重點"},{"start":2990.7,"end":2992.14,"text":"三個結論"},{"start":2992.53,"end":2993.9700000000003,"text":"第一個結論"},{"start":2994.28,"end":2995.7200000000003,"text":"第一個提綱的說明"},{"start":2996.78,"end":2999.2200000000003,"text":"文字非常的美麗"},{"start":2999.97,"end":3001.41,"text":"內容也很充實"},{"start":3002.57,"end":3005.01,"text":"但是總是感覺它隱藏著一個意義"},{"start":3006.63,"end":3008.07,"text":"或者是紙栽"},{"start":3009.96,"end":3011.96,"text":"這個目前的平地原住民"},{"start":3011.96,"end":3013.96,"text":"三地原住民的分類"},{"start":3014.5,"end":3016.94,"text":"在憲法上欠缺"},{"start":3018.16,"end":3019.6,"text":"正當性"},{"start":3020.13,"end":3022.13,"text":"希望透過這一次的修憲"},{"start":3022.13,"end":3024.13,"text":"把它修正"},{"start":3023.19,"end":3024.63,"text":"這是我第一個觀察"},{"start":3025.97,"end":3027.41,"text":"第二個觀察"},{"start":3029.46,"end":3031.9,"text":"憲法保障原住民主的政治參與"},{"start":3036.72,"end":3039.16,"text":"應該要回歸原住民主各族"},{"start":3041.92,"end":3044.36,"text":"獲得適當的政治代表為目的"},{"start":3046.05,"end":3047.4900000000002,"text":"這個提綱"},{"start":3048.74,"end":3050.18,"text":"很清楚指明這一點"},{"start":3052.2,"end":3053.64,"text":"第三個我的結論"},{"start":3054.42,"end":3056.86,"text":"不論後來這個法要怎麼修"},{"start":3058.51,"end":3061.9500000000003,"text":"未來原住民在憲法裡面的席位"},{"start":3062.73,"end":3065.17,"text":"維持現行的六行"},{"start":3066.51,"end":3068.9500000000003,"text":"大概就是這三個事"},{"start":3071.15,"end":3072.59,"text":"我個人看見的"},{"start":3074.4,"end":3075.84,"text":"很重要的一個結論"},{"start":3078.15,"end":3079.59,"text":"我看了之後"},{"start":3081.2000000000003,"end":3082.2000000000003,"text":"我有一些想法"},{"start":3082.2000000000003,"end":3084.2000000000003,"text":"也回憶起很多很多的事情"},{"start":3085.49,"end":3086.93,"text":"因為我在原民會"},{"start":3087.87,"end":3089.31,"text":"從創會來"},{"start":3089.64,"end":3094.08,"text":"我還是內政部三地行政科的科長"},{"start":3095.41,"end":3096.41,"text":"是所有原住民公務員"},{"start":3096.41,"end":3099.41,"text":"第一位到中央服務的科長"},{"start":3100.46,"end":3104.9,"text":"所以經歷過很多關於我們原住民事務的變動"},{"start":3106.3,"end":3108.3,"text":"所以會勾起這些重點"},{"start":3108.3,"end":3109.3,"text":"三個重點"},{"start":3109.3,"end":3111.3,"text":"勾起我一些回憶"},{"start":3112.52,"end":3115.96,"text":"在2000年陳水扁總統競選"},{"start":3117.62,"end":3119.06,"text":"總統的時候"},{"start":3119.58,"end":3123.02,"text":"他曾經提出了他的原住民主政見"},{"start":3125.96,"end":3127.96,"text":"這個政見的名稱"},{"start":3127.96,"end":3131.96,"text":"叫做原住民主與台灣政府新的夥伴關係"},{"start":3132.69,"end":3135.13,"text":"這個內容總共有八點"},{"start":3135.42,"end":3138.86,"text":"因為這個內容很多不是我們今天可以報告的"},{"start":3140.18,"end":3142.62,"text":"我就只有針對他的第八點"},{"start":3143.47,"end":3144.91,"text":"他的八點說什麼呢"},{"start":3145.48,"end":3147.92,"text":"他說國會議員"},{"start":3148.91,"end":3150.35,"text":"回歸"},{"start":3150.51,"end":3152.9500000000003,"text":"民主代表制"},{"start":3153.6,"end":3157.04,"text":"我們在做可能很多學者專家知道過"},{"start":3157.6,"end":3161.04,"text":"新夥伴關係的八點裡面的最後一點"},{"start":3161.68,"end":3165.12,"text":"就是國會議員回歸民主代表制"},{"start":3166.22,"end":3168.66,"text":"陳總統為了重視"},{"start":3169.4900000000002,"end":3171.4900000000002,"text":"他這個原住民主的政見"},{"start":3171.4900000000002,"end":3173.4900000000002,"text":"他就任以後當選就任以後"},{"start":3173.59,"end":3176.03,"text":"還特別到原民會"},{"start":3176.41,"end":3178.85,"text":"跟我們原住民的族群委員"},{"start":3179.52,"end":3181.96,"text":"我不知道當時的"},{"start":3182.08,"end":3184.08,"text":"幕僚工作是不是我們政天才委員"},{"start":3184.08,"end":3186.08,"text":"他當時區劃處的處長"},{"start":3190.38,"end":3192.82,"text":"辦了一場"},{"start":3192.68,"end":3197.12,"text":"管理這個新夥伴關係的再肯定的隆重的一次"},{"start":3199.6,"end":3202.04,"text":"張賢"},{"start":3201.08,"end":3204.52,"text":"我們陳總統對這一個案子的重要性"},{"start":3205.57,"end":3208.01,"text":"時間的關係"},{"start":3216.69,"end":3219.13,"text":"都是很遺憾的"},{"start":3219.02,"end":3221.02,"text":"很遺憾的"},{"start":3221.02,"end":3223.02,"text":"曾總統八年的任內裡面"},{"start":3223.22,"end":3227.66,"text":"也經歷過民國94年的6月10號修憲的公佈"},{"start":3229.16,"end":3231.6,"text":"當初承諾的"},{"start":3232.25,"end":3234.25,"text":"新夥伴關係的第八點"},{"start":3234.25,"end":3236.25,"text":"國會回歸民主代表制"},{"start":3237.63,"end":3240.07,"text":"事實上"},{"start":3240.23,"end":3242.23,"text":"在民國94年的修憲中"},{"start":3242.23,"end":3244.23,"text":"完全我們看不到"},{"start":3245.6,"end":3248.04,"text":"不但是如此"},{"start":3248.11,"end":3250.55,"text":"當年的立法委員本來是巴西"},{"start":3252.38,"end":3254.82,"text":"反而被收緊為變六十"},{"start":3256.11,"end":3258.11,"text":"所以原住民非常的錯愕"},{"start":3258.11,"end":3260.11,"text":"我相信大家很多的原住民的"},{"start":3260.11,"end":3262.11,"text":"心目中"},{"start":3262.11,"end":3264.11,"text":"都留下很深刻的這個印象"},{"start":3266.63,"end":3269.07,"text":"今天我們再回到今天的公聽"},{"start":3270.51,"end":3272.9500000000003,"text":"這裡"},{"start":3272.16,"end":3274.16,"text":"我們手上拿到的資料"},{"start":3274.16,"end":3276.16,"text":"我們很像又看見了"},{"start":3276.16,"end":3278.16,"text":"陳總統當年所提的"},{"start":3278.66,"end":3281.1,"text":"這個新夥伴關係的原住民政見"},{"start":3282.54,"end":3284.98,"text":"而且這個面容非常的接近"},{"start":3287.45,"end":3289.89,"text":"所以我們都會惹惹成奇"},{"start":3291.09,"end":3293.53,"text":"另外就是席次的部分"},{"start":3294.22,"end":3296.66,"text":"我大概看了一看"},{"start":3296.66,"end":3298.66,"text":"提供草案的主委委員"},{"start":3298.66,"end":3300.66,"text":"諸公們"},{"start":3301.41,"end":3303.85,"text":"其中有六位"},{"start":3303.5,"end":3305.94,"text":"有六位"},{"start":3304.7,"end":3307.14,"text":"有設計到"},{"start":3306.72,"end":3309.16,"text":"關於原住民的席次的這個問題"},{"start":3310.75,"end":3313.19,"text":"陳總統在"},{"start":3312.51,"end":3314.9500000000003,"text":"26年以前"},{"start":3315.53,"end":3317.53,"text":"他有新夥伴關係"},{"start":3317.53,"end":3319.53,"text":"希望能夠回到主權代表制"},{"start":3320.15,"end":3322.59,"text":"那個時候原住民族僅只有九族"},{"start":3324.32,"end":3326.76,"text":"但是這幾年來"},{"start":3326.7200000000003,"end":3328.7200000000003,"text":"已經增加到了"},{"start":3328.7200000000003,"end":3330.7200000000003,"text":"十七組"},{"start":3331.22,"end":3333.66,"text":"所以說這次的修正哪"},{"start":3335.2400000000002,"end":3337.2400000000002,"text":"回歸原住民獲得適當政治"},{"start":3337.2400000000002,"end":3339.2400000000002,"text":"代表目的"},{"start":3339.93,"end":3342.37,"text":"代表的這個目的"},{"start":3342.73,"end":3345.17,"text":"其實"},{"start":3344.3,"end":3346.7400000000002,"text":"我個人認為是非常的不容易"},{"start":3347.37,"end":3349.81,"text":"非常不容易"},{"start":3348.96,"end":3351.4,"text":"最後我做一個結論"},{"start":3352.49,"end":3354.93,"text":"我認為現在這個修憲的這個過程中"},{"start":3358.16,"end":3360.16,"text":"因為憲法中就條文的第四條"},{"start":3360.16,"end":3362.16,"text":"第一項第二款"},{"start":3364.01,"end":3366.01,"text":"他牽涉我們原住民"},{"start":3366.01,"end":3368.01,"text":"非常巨大參政權的這個權益"},{"start":3369.97,"end":3372.41,"text":"所以我誠實的建議"},{"start":3373.29,"end":3375.73,"text":"我們可以不可以"},{"start":3375.05,"end":3377.4900000000002,"text":"讓現在"},{"start":3377.36,"end":3379.36,"text":"參與政治的原住民和三地原住民"},{"start":3379.36,"end":3381.36,"text":"跟平地原住民也好"},{"start":3381.19,"end":3383.63,"text":"我們請他們"},{"start":3385.07,"end":3387.51,"text":"我們透過像憲法現在所說的第十條"},{"start":3388.99,"end":3391.43,"text":"第十二項"},{"start":3396.73,"end":3398.73,"text":"然後我們很慎重來處理修憲"},{"start":3398.73,"end":3400.73,"text":"這樣會不會"},{"start":3400.66,"end":3403.1,"text":"更完備"},{"start":3407.25,"end":3409.69,"text":"以上了"},{"start":3408.9500000000003,"end":3410.9500000000003,"text":"簡單的報告進行大家指教謝謝"},{"start":3410.9500000000003,"end":3412.9500000000003,"text":"謝謝林江毅前主任委員"},{"start":3412.9500000000003,"end":3414.9500000000003,"text":"接下來請陳章培倫教授"},{"start":3430.62,"end":3432.62,"text":"我們今天的會議主席"},{"start":3432.62,"end":3434.62,"text":"中委員"},{"start":3434.62,"end":3436.62,"text":"在場的各位立法委員朋友"},{"start":3436.62,"end":3438.62,"text":"修憲委員會的工作同仁們"},{"start":3438.62,"end":3440.62,"text":"和今天與會的所有專家學者們"},{"start":3440.62,"end":3442.62,"text":"大家早安大家好"},{"start":3446.04,"end":3450.04,"text":"今天我很榮幸應立院修憲委員會的邀請"},{"start":3450.04,"end":3453.04,"text":"就這一次的修憲提案當中"},{"start":3453.04,"end":3455.04,"text":"跟原民立委選制有關的部分"},{"start":3455.04,"end":3459.04,"text":"稍微提供一些潛艦"},{"start":3459.04,"end":3465.04,"text":"如同剛才前面兩位發言的前輩所提到的"},{"start":3465.04,"end":3467.04,"text":"其實我們今天討論的主題"},{"start":3467.04,"end":3469.04,"text":"修憲提案的主題"},{"start":3469.04,"end":3471.04,"text":"其實大概是牽涉了"},{"start":3471.04,"end":3475.04,"text":"吳立華委員所提到的"},{"start":3475.48,"end":3477.48,"text":"吳委員所提到的版本"},{"start":3477.48,"end":3479.48,"text":"以及那個政委員"},{"start":3479.48,"end":3481.48,"text":"領銜所提到的版本"},{"start":3481.48,"end":3483.48,"text":"吳委員的提案主要是廢除"},{"start":3483.48,"end":3486.48,"text":"三元平元各三席的這樣一個說法"},{"start":3486.48,"end":3488.48,"text":"而直接列原住民族六席"},{"start":3488.48,"end":3490.48,"text":"那他的理由"},{"start":3490.48,"end":3492.48,"text":"至少看那個文件"},{"start":3492.48,"end":3494.48,"text":"是認為那個區分"},{"start":3494.48,"end":3496.48,"text":"其實是沿襲日治時期"},{"start":3496.48,"end":3498.48,"text":"不合時宜的名稱"},{"start":3498.48,"end":3500.48,"text":"所以廢除掉"},{"start":3500.48,"end":3502.48,"text":"那政委員的提案的話"},{"start":3502.48,"end":3504.48,"text":"則是新增平埔"},{"start":3504.48,"end":3506.48,"text":"原住民的席次"},{"start":3506.48,"end":3508.48,"text":"那理由就是因為"},{"start":3508.48,"end":3510.48,"text":"111先判是第17號的判決結果"},{"start":3510.48,"end":3512.48,"text":"那平埔族群的一些權力"},{"start":3512.48,"end":3514.48,"text":"那參政權的部分"},{"start":3514.48,"end":3516.48,"text":"好像也該處理"},{"start":3516.48,"end":3520.48,"text":"那就我個人的觀察來看的話"},{"start":3520.48,"end":3522.48,"text":"其實就因然陳面而言"},{"start":3522.48,"end":3524.48,"text":"我覺得兩個提案"},{"start":3524.48,"end":3526.48,"text":"其實都應該值得鼓勵和支持"},{"start":3526.48,"end":3528.48,"text":"都跟長期以來原住民族權力"},{"start":3528.48,"end":3530.48,"text":"發展的這個目標是相一致的"},{"start":3530.48,"end":3532.48,"text":"尤其是廢除三元平元"},{"start":3532.48,"end":3534.48,"text":"尤其是廢除三元平元"},{"start":3534.48,"end":3536.48,"text":"這個在憲法裡面"},{"start":3536.48,"end":3538.48,"text":"把三元平元這個名稱廢除一世"},{"start":3538.48,"end":3540.48,"text":"那我是覺得說"},{"start":3540.48,"end":3542.48,"text":"它相當具有歷史意義"},{"start":3542.48,"end":3544.48,"text":"因為其實從清帝國時期開始"},{"start":3544.48,"end":3546.48,"text":"對原住民族的分類"},{"start":3546.48,"end":3548.48,"text":"清帝國日本或者中華民國戰後"},{"start":3548.48,"end":3550.48,"text":"不管身翻手翻高砂平埔三元平元"},{"start":3550.48,"end":3552.48,"text":"這幾組概念"},{"start":3552.48,"end":3554.48,"text":"它其實都是以同化程度"},{"start":3554.48,"end":3556.48,"text":"來分類原住民"},{"start":3556.48,"end":3558.48,"text":"而不是以原住民自己本身的那個立場"},{"start":3558.48,"end":3560.48,"text":"而不是以原住民自己本身的那個立場"},{"start":3560.48,"end":3562.48,"text":"而不是以原住民自己本身的那個歷史文化來做分類"},{"start":3562.48,"end":3564.48,"text":"而不是以原住民自己本身的那個歷史文化來做分類"},{"start":3564.48,"end":3566.48,"text":"所以講一場白話"},{"start":3566.48,"end":3568.48,"text":"從身翻手翻高砂平埔乃至於三元平元"},{"start":3568.48,"end":3570.48,"text":"從身翻手翻高砂平埔乃至於三元平元"},{"start":3570.48,"end":3572.48,"text":"這一組概念它根本是殖民主義的遺敘"},{"start":3572.48,"end":3574.48,"text":"這一組概念它根本是殖民主義的遺敘"},{"start":3574.48,"end":3576.48,"text":"那原因的前輩們當年沒有把它處理掉"},{"start":3576.48,"end":3578.48,"text":"那原因的前輩們當年沒有把它處理掉"},{"start":3578.48,"end":3580.48,"text":"那個現在現在把它處理一下"},{"start":3580.48,"end":3582.48,"text":"那個那個還算是這個汪洋補牢"},{"start":3582.48,"end":3584.48,"text":"那個那個還算是這個汪洋補牢"},{"start":3584.48,"end":3586.48,"text":"所以我覺得說這個是很正確的"},{"start":3586.48,"end":3588.48,"text":"所以我覺得說這個是很正確的"},{"start":3588.48,"end":3590.48,"text":"但是至於納入平埔族群立委的席次"},{"start":3590.48,"end":3592.48,"text":"但是至於納入平埔族群立委的席次"},{"start":3592.48,"end":3594.48,"text":"那既然大法官也都認為這個平埔族群"},{"start":3594.48,"end":3596.48,"text":"那既然大法官也都認為這個平埔族群"},{"start":3596.48,"end":3598.48,"text":"它是也算是憲法裡面所謂的原住民族"},{"start":3598.48,"end":3600.48,"text":"所以如果他們沒有立委席次的話"},{"start":3600.48,"end":3602.48,"text":"所以如果他們沒有立委席次的話"},{"start":3602.48,"end":3604.48,"text":"平埔族群們他難免會覺得說"},{"start":3604.48,"end":3606.48,"text":"原來十六族一節啦"},{"start":3606.48,"end":3608.48,"text":"所以在憲法裡面明列其席次"},{"start":3608.48,"end":3610.48,"text":"所以在憲法裡面明列其席次"},{"start":3610.48,"end":3612.48,"text":"我覺得方向也是正確"},{"start":3612.48,"end":3614.48,"text":"可是我前面講的是陰然陳次的這個評估"},{"start":3614.48,"end":3616.48,"text":"我們要回到那個十安陳次"},{"start":3616.48,"end":3618.48,"text":"那回到十安陳次的話"},{"start":3618.48,"end":3620.48,"text":"其實我就稍微有一點點疑慮了啦"},{"start":3620.48,"end":3622.48,"text":"其實我就稍微有一點點疑慮了啦"},{"start":3622.48,"end":3624.48,"text":"因為理想很美好"},{"start":3624.48,"end":3626.48,"text":"可是現實其實有的時候蠻骨感的啦"},{"start":3626.48,"end":3628.48,"text":"因為理想很美好可是現實其實有的時候蠻骨感的啦"},{"start":3628.48,"end":3630.48,"text":"怎麼說呢"},{"start":3630.48,"end":3632.48,"text":"那麼因為"},{"start":3632.48,"end":3634.48,"text":"比如說吳委員所提這個版本"},{"start":3634.48,"end":3636.48,"text":"把三元平原各三席這種說法"},{"start":3636.48,"end":3638.48,"text":"把它改成原住民族六席"},{"start":3638.48,"end":3640.48,"text":"但是講一坦白話"},{"start":3640.48,"end":3642.48,"text":"你這麼改之後"},{"start":3642.48,"end":3644.48,"text":"如果沒有同時把其他配套的法案同步處理的話呢"},{"start":3644.48,"end":3646.48,"text":"如果沒有同時把其他配套的法案同步處理的話呢"},{"start":3646.48,"end":3648.48,"text":"很有可能會出現"},{"start":3648.48,"end":3650.48,"text":"憲法文字調整了"},{"start":3650.48,"end":3652.48,"text":"但是實質的狀況仍然很難改變"},{"start":3652.48,"end":3654.48,"text":"甚至一不小心"},{"start":3654.48,"end":3656.48,"text":"會造成族群內部的"},{"start":3656.48,"end":3658.48,"text":"不必要的衝突和內耗"},{"start":3658.48,"end":3660.48,"text":"原來的法定原住民族和平埔族群之間的"},{"start":3660.48,"end":3662.48,"text":"這個衝突內耗"},{"start":3662.48,"end":3664.48,"text":"甚至原來的三元平原內部的內耗"},{"start":3664.48,"end":3666.48,"text":"都有可能會發生"},{"start":3666.48,"end":3668.48,"text":"所以從十安陳面的話"},{"start":3668.48,"end":3670.48,"text":"我會覺得要非常謹慎的"},{"start":3670.48,"end":3672.48,"text":"形式"},{"start":3672.48,"end":3674.48,"text":"而不是很簡單的把憲法的幾個文字調整"},{"start":3674.48,"end":3676.48,"text":"為什麼會這樣憂慮呢"},{"start":3676.48,"end":3678.48,"text":"第一個"},{"start":3678.48,"end":3680.48,"text":"比如說憲法裡面"},{"start":3680.48,"end":3682.48,"text":"三元平原的概念不再存在了"},{"start":3682.48,"end":3684.48,"text":"可是還是有原民身分法"},{"start":3684.48,"end":3686.48,"text":"裡面還是寫三元平原"},{"start":3686.48,"end":3688.48,"text":"我們的戶籍資料裡面都還是"},{"start":3688.48,"end":3690.48,"text":"蓋著三元平原這兩個概念"},{"start":3692.52,"end":3694.52,"text":"所以會不會憲法"},{"start":3694.52,"end":3696.52,"text":"文字調整了"},{"start":3696.52,"end":3698.52,"text":"可是其他的法律三元平原的文字"},{"start":3698.52,"end":3700.52,"text":"完全沒有同步調整"},{"start":3700.52,"end":3702.52,"text":"憲法的調整恐怕只是"},{"start":3702.52,"end":3704.52,"text":"一個彈劃一線而已"},{"start":3704.52,"end":3706.52,"text":"它的解析效果其實是有限的"},{"start":3706.52,"end":3708.52,"text":"再來"},{"start":3708.52,"end":3710.52,"text":"當我們說憲法裡面不再"},{"start":3710.52,"end":3712.52,"text":"講三元平原立委各三席"},{"start":3712.52,"end":3714.52,"text":"而改為原住民族六席的時候"},{"start":3714.52,"end":3716.52,"text":"請問這六席該怎麼選"},{"start":3716.97,"end":3718.97,"text":"在場有原住民族立委選事的專家"},{"start":3718.97,"end":3720.97,"text":"可能待會講的更多"},{"start":3720.97,"end":3722.97,"text":"我唯一能夠想像到的是什麼呢"},{"start":3722.97,"end":3724.97,"text":"那可能選罷法要同步修正"},{"start":3724.97,"end":3726.97,"text":"選罷法裡面可能就要"},{"start":3726.97,"end":3728.97,"text":"講說要怎麼去選"},{"start":3728.97,"end":3730.97,"text":"可是一旦講直不下"},{"start":3730.97,"end":3732.97,"text":"會不會在選罷法裡面"},{"start":3732.97,"end":3734.97,"text":"它還是繼續寫三元三席平原三席"},{"start":3734.97,"end":3736.97,"text":"那還不是一樣"},{"start":3738.05,"end":3740.05,"text":"那還不是一樣"},{"start":3739.29,"end":3741.29,"text":"那這樣子的話修憲效果就有限了"},{"start":3741.29,"end":3743.29,"text":"所以我想"},{"start":3743.29,"end":3745.29,"text":"所以我的基本的觀點就是什麼呢"},{"start":3745.29,"end":3747.29,"text":"整個配套要想過之後再去修憲"},{"start":3747.29,"end":3749.29,"text":"然後最後還有一點"},{"start":3749.29,"end":3751.29,"text":"就是什麼呢其實我從各方"},{"start":3751.29,"end":3753.29,"text":"的管道和我接觸"},{"start":3753.29,"end":3755.29,"text":"一些平埔族群他們也很希望"},{"start":3755.29,"end":3757.29,"text":"他們在立院當中有席次"},{"start":3757.29,"end":3759.29,"text":"所以我可以想像"},{"start":3759.29,"end":3761.29,"text":"所以政委員的版本裡面就在"},{"start":3761.29,"end":3763.29,"text":"雖然沒有廢掉三元平原這個名稱"},{"start":3763.29,"end":3765.29,"text":"可是他就直接平埔原住民"},{"start":3765.29,"end":3767.29,"text":"也在憲法裡面"},{"start":3767.29,"end":3769.29,"text":"名列他的席次"},{"start":3769.29,"end":3771.29,"text":"我想平埔族群或許不滿意"},{"start":3771.29,"end":3773.29,"text":"大概也可能可以接受"},{"start":3773.29,"end":3775.29,"text":"可是然後呢其實"},{"start":3775.29,"end":3777.29,"text":"那個吳委員的版本裡面"},{"start":3777.29,"end":3779.29,"text":"其實也隱含著那六席裡面"},{"start":3779.29,"end":3781.29,"text":"可以包含著那個平埔原住民的"},{"start":3781.29,"end":3783.29,"text":"這個立委席次"},{"start":3783.29,"end":3785.29,"text":"可是這個問題就來了"},{"start":3785.29,"end":3787.29,"text":"什麼問題就來了呢就是當"},{"start":3787.29,"end":3789.29,"text":"過幾天開始"},{"start":3789.29,"end":3791.29,"text":"那個謝大雅族就可以開始登記身份了"},{"start":3791.29,"end":3793.29,"text":"當法定原住民"},{"start":3793.29,"end":3795.29,"text":"當所謂的不管是哪一種"},{"start":3795.29,"end":3797.29,"text":"原住民族他們的人口越來越多的時候"},{"start":3799.29,"end":3801.29,"text":"甚至還新增族別的時候"},{"start":3801.29,"end":3805.29,"text":"最後我們還是搶那個六席"},{"start":3806.34,"end":3808.34,"text":"這個恐怕會造成什麼呢"},{"start":3808.34,"end":3810.34,"text":"平埔族群"},{"start":3810.34,"end":3812.34,"text":"和原來十六族之間的這個衝突"},{"start":3813.95,"end":3815.95,"text":"那我覺得這不是一件好事"},{"start":3817.95,"end":3819.95,"text":"甚至就我對於整個歷史上原住民族政策"},{"start":3819.95,"end":3821.95,"text":"的歷史"},{"start":3821.95,"end":3823.95,"text":"這個政策史的這個發展"},{"start":3823.95,"end":3825.95,"text":"那這次要是"},{"start":3825.95,"end":3827.95,"text":"要是修憲沒有把整個配套做好的話呢"},{"start":3827.95,"end":3829.95,"text":"可能過了二三十年之後"},{"start":3829.95,"end":3831.95,"text":"我們回過頭來去寫這段歷史的時候"},{"start":3831.95,"end":3833.95,"text":"很可能會指責主流族群"},{"start":3833.95,"end":3835.95,"text":"幹嘛呢以藩制藩"},{"start":3835.95,"end":3837.95,"text":"為什麼呢"},{"start":3837.95,"end":3839.95,"text":"就讓原住民自己內部"},{"start":3839.95,"end":3841.95,"text":"內部在對抗"},{"start":3841.95,"end":3843.95,"text":"內部在內"},{"start":3843.95,"end":3845.95,"text":"所以"},{"start":3845.95,"end":3847.95,"text":"所以我會覺得"},{"start":3847.95,"end":3849.95,"text":"要修憲可以"},{"start":3849.95,"end":3851.95,"text":"但是我還是認為還是回到"},{"start":3851.95,"end":3853.95,"text":"那個當年阿扁總統承諾"},{"start":3853.95,"end":3855.95,"text":"我們原住民族的"},{"start":3855.95,"end":3857.95,"text":"一族一代表這是最好的"},{"start":3857.95,"end":3859.95,"text":"那你這樣子就算是"},{"start":3859.95,"end":3861.95,"text":"那個平埔族的西大亞族"},{"start":3861.95,"end":3863.95,"text":"然後後續還有好幾個族"},{"start":3863.95,"end":3865.95,"text":"都要加進來他們就一族一席"},{"start":3867.17,"end":3869.17,"text":"這樣最完整"},{"start":3869.17,"end":3871.17,"text":"當然也有人可能會認為說"},{"start":3871.17,"end":3873.17,"text":"你們原住民才多少人"},{"start":3873.17,"end":3875.17,"text":"幾十萬人就算加上平埔族群"},{"start":3875.17,"end":3877.17,"text":"那理想一點的話未來可能會"},{"start":3877.17,"end":3879.17,"text":"接近百萬吧"},{"start":3878.73,"end":3880.73,"text":"阿卻要"},{"start":3880.73,"end":3882.73,"text":"十六族再加上平埔族的"},{"start":3882.73,"end":3884.73,"text":"加進來的各族"},{"start":3884.73,"end":3886.73,"text":"以後會有二十多位"},{"start":3886.73,"end":3888.73,"text":"原住民立委"},{"start":3888.73,"end":3890.73,"text":"這樣子好像又有點失衡"},{"start":3890.73,"end":3892.73,"text":"我倒是想到一招"},{"start":3892.73,"end":3894.73,"text":"那個原民會裡面的那個"},{"start":3894.73,"end":3896.73,"text":"那個族群委員"},{"start":3896.73,"end":3898.73,"text":"不是現在已經功能不存在了嗎"},{"start":3898.73,"end":3900.73,"text":"那可不可以"},{"start":3900.73,"end":3902.73,"text":"在立法院裡面"},{"start":3902.73,"end":3904.73,"text":"我們設一個特種委員會"},{"start":3904.5,"end":3906.5,"text":"立法委員在選舉的時候"},{"start":3906.5,"end":3908.5,"text":"我們原住民的選民"},{"start":3908.5,"end":3910.5,"text":"我們不是直接選原住民立委"},{"start":3910.5,"end":3912.5,"text":"我們就直接選一個什麼呢"},{"start":3912.5,"end":3914.5,"text":"直接選一個叫做"},{"start":3914.5,"end":3916.5,"text":"族群代表委員會"},{"start":3916.79,"end":3918.79,"text":"每一族一個"},{"start":3918.79,"end":3920.79,"text":"然後在選出來之後呢"},{"start":3920.79,"end":3922.79,"text":"再有那個可能"},{"start":3922.79,"end":3924.79,"text":"可能將近二十個"},{"start":3924.79,"end":3926.79,"text":"或是二十個上下的在立法院的"},{"start":3926.79,"end":3928.79,"text":"這個特種委員會的各族的代表"},{"start":3928.79,"end":3930.79,"text":"互選六席"},{"start":3930.79,"end":3932.79,"text":"或許這也是一種做法"},{"start":3932.79,"end":3934.79,"text":"或許這也是一種做法"},{"start":3934.79,"end":3936.79,"text":"那所以我就所謂的"},{"start":3936.79,"end":3938.79,"text":"陰然的層面"},{"start":3938.79,"end":3940.79,"text":"我是絕對支持要求限"},{"start":3940.79,"end":3942.79,"text":"可是使然的層面我覺得還是"},{"start":3942.79,"end":3944.79,"text":"要非常的這個慎重"},{"start":3944.79,"end":3946.79,"text":"否則可能"},{"start":3946.79,"end":3948.79,"text":"我比較擔心會造成族群內部的一些內耗"},{"start":3948.79,"end":3950.79,"text":"那以上請見就教"},{"start":3950.79,"end":3952.79,"text":"租軍"},{"start":3952.79,"end":3954.79,"text":"謝謝各位"},{"start":3954.79,"end":3956.79,"text":"謝謝陳昌梅倫教授所提供的"},{"start":3956.79,"end":3958.79,"text":"保護意見"},{"start":3958.79,"end":3960.79,"text":"那接下來呢"},{"start":3960.79,"end":3962.79,"text":"我們有請鄭天才委員"},{"start":3974.43,"end":3976.43,"text":"主席"},{"start":3976.43,"end":3978.43,"text":"所有的專家學者"},{"start":3978.43,"end":3980.43,"text":"大家平安"},{"start":3980.46,"end":3982.46,"text":"這個"},{"start":3981.45,"end":3983.45,"text":"殖民時期啊"},{"start":3983.19,"end":3985.19,"text":"就是清朝日治時代"},{"start":3986.01,"end":3988.01,"text":"就區分為"},{"start":3988.01,"end":3990.01,"text":"身翻首翻"},{"start":3989.65,"end":3991.65,"text":"那台灣"},{"start":3991.22,"end":3995.22,"text":"由中華民國統治到現在"},{"start":3996.03,"end":3998.03,"text":"都稱為三眼平眼"},{"start":3998.03,"end":4000.03,"text":"從過去的山地三包"},{"start":4000.03,"end":4002.03,"text":"平地三包到現在"},{"start":4002.03,"end":4004.03,"text":"平地原住民山地原住民"},{"start":4004.52,"end":4006.52,"text":"所以我們是不是一定要講"},{"start":4006.52,"end":4008.52,"text":"這樣的一個區分是殖民時期"},{"start":4008.52,"end":4010.52,"text":"難道中華民國政府"},{"start":4010.52,"end":4012.52,"text":"現在在台灣"},{"start":4012.52,"end":4014.52,"text":"還是殖民時期嗎"},{"start":4014.52,"end":4016.52,"text":"這是第一個"},{"start":4015.89,"end":4017.89,"text":"我們看立法明定"},{"start":4017.89,"end":4021.89,"text":"參政前分為山地原住民及平地原住民"},{"start":4021.89,"end":4023.89,"text":"從過去1950年"},{"start":4023.89,"end":4025.89,"text":"4月"},{"start":4025.89,"end":4027.89,"text":"台灣省各縣市實施地方自治綱要"},{"start":4027.89,"end":4029.89,"text":"就明定"},{"start":4030.64,"end":4032.64,"text":"地方民意代表區分為"},{"start":4032.64,"end":4034.64,"text":"山地原住民及平地原住民"},{"start":4034.64,"end":4036.64,"text":"而且還特別明定"},{"start":4036.64,"end":4040.64,"text":"保障山地鄉一定要有山地原住民的意願"},{"start":4041.56,"end":4043.56,"text":"另外就特別明定山地鄉的鄉長"},{"start":4045.31,"end":4047.31,"text":"一定要山地原住民"},{"start":4048.97,"end":4050.97,"text":"我們看"},{"start":4050,"end":4052,"text":"這個"},{"start":4052.22,"end":4054.22,"text":"到了立法院來制定"},{"start":4054.22,"end":4056.22,"text":"1944年7月"},{"start":4056.22,"end":4058.22,"text":"省縣自治法的公佈"},{"start":4058.22,"end":4060.22,"text":"以及1999年1月"},{"start":4060.22,"end":4062.22,"text":"地方制度法的公佈"},{"start":4062.22,"end":4064.22,"text":"仍然區分為"},{"start":4064.22,"end":4066.22,"text":"地方民意代表山原平眼"},{"start":4066.22,"end":4068.22,"text":"還特別明定"},{"start":4068.22,"end":4070.22,"text":"山地鄉者應有山地原住民的意願"},{"start":4075.44,"end":4077.44,"text":"尤其是民國99年"},{"start":4078.79,"end":4080.79,"text":"直轄市的意願之前"},{"start":4080.79,"end":4082.79,"text":"不分山山平山直轄市的意願"},{"start":4082.79,"end":4084.79,"text":"民國99年"},{"start":4084.79,"end":4086.79,"text":"修地方制度法"},{"start":4087.53,"end":4089.53,"text":"直轄市一眼平地"},{"start":4089.53,"end":4091.53,"text":"一樣區分為山眼跟平眼"},{"start":4093.82,"end":4095.82,"text":"所以如果我們從這個"},{"start":4095.82,"end":4097.82,"text":"當然山地鄉一樣"},{"start":4097.82,"end":4099.82,"text":"繼續明定為縣山地鄉"},{"start":4099.82,"end":4101.82,"text":"山地原住民才能夠"},{"start":4101.82,"end":4103.82,"text":"擔任山地鄉的鄉長"},{"start":4105.52,"end":4107.52,"text":"1992年11月"},{"start":4108.25,"end":4110.25,"text":"現在的法律所明定的"},{"start":4110.25,"end":4112.25,"text":"威權統治時期"},{"start":4112.25,"end":4114.25,"text":"是在1992年11月以前"},{"start":4114.25,"end":4116.25,"text":"是叫威權統治時期"},{"start":4119.07,"end":4121.07,"text":"1992年11月以後"},{"start":4123.42,"end":4125.42,"text":"已經不是威權統治時期了"},{"start":4126,"end":4128,"text":"這是民進黨執政"},{"start":4128,"end":4130,"text":"多數的時候在第九屆"},{"start":4130,"end":4132,"text":"所明定的"},{"start":4132,"end":4134,"text":"1992年11月以後"},{"start":4134,"end":4136,"text":"已經不是威權統治時期"},{"start":4138.54,"end":4140.54,"text":"地方制度法直系"},{"start":4140.54,"end":4142.54,"text":"明定"},{"start":4142.54,"end":4144.54,"text":"山眼跟平眼"},{"start":4144.7,"end":4146.7,"text":"這個地方制度法的修法歷程"},{"start":4146.7,"end":4148.7,"text":"修了這麼多次這麼多次"},{"start":4148.7,"end":4150.7,"text":"仍然明定"},{"start":4151.75,"end":4153.75,"text":"我們看這樣把針灸調穩"},{"start":4154.84,"end":4156.84,"text":"憲法徵修條文"},{"start":4156.98,"end":4158.98,"text":"一開始從民國80年開始"},{"start":4159.89,"end":4161.89,"text":"就是分山眼平眼"},{"start":4162.13,"end":4164.13,"text":"另外尤其是"},{"start":4164.13,"end":4166.13,"text":"這個商包證明委員著名的"},{"start":4166.13,"end":4168.13,"text":"民國"},{"start":4168.07,"end":4170.07,"text":"好"},{"start":4169.17,"end":4171.17,"text":"1983年"},{"start":4170.6,"end":4172.6,"text":"一樣"},{"start":4172.6,"end":4174.6,"text":"區分為山眼平眼"},{"start":4174.6,"end":4176.6,"text":"所有的原住民的國大代表都支持"},{"start":4177.52,"end":4179.52,"text":"歷次修憲之後都是一樣"},{"start":4179.52,"end":4181.52,"text":"而且都是在什麼時候"},{"start":4181.52,"end":4183.52,"text":"都是在威權統治時期之後"},{"start":4183.52,"end":4185.52,"text":"所修憲"},{"start":4187.09,"end":4189.09,"text":"所以我們看這個"},{"start":4189.09,"end":4191.09,"text":"111年10月28號"},{"start":4191.09,"end":4193.09,"text":"憲判至第17號"},{"start":4194.19,"end":4196.19,"text":"當初針對這個原住民身份法"},{"start":4196.19,"end":4198.19,"text":"也特別寫"},{"start":4198.19,"end":4200.19,"text":"依據憲法"},{"start":4200.19,"end":4202.19,"text":"針修條文第四條三地原住民及平地原住民規定的用意"},{"start":4205.5,"end":4207.5,"text":"原住民身份法的依據"},{"start":4207.5,"end":4209.5,"text":"就是現在我們現在討論的"},{"start":4209.5,"end":4211.5,"text":"憲法徵修條文第四條"},{"start":4212.54,"end":4214.54,"text":"第四條如果被修正的"},{"start":4215.05,"end":4217.05,"text":"原住民身份法"},{"start":4216.72,"end":4218.72,"text":"就是必要跟著"},{"start":4218.72,"end":4220.72,"text":"會有這樣的一個風險"},{"start":4221.19,"end":4223.19,"text":"我們看這個憲判至第17號之後"},{"start":4224.5,"end":4226.5,"text":"所以我們才制定了什麼"},{"start":4226.5,"end":4228.5,"text":"平埔原住民族群身份法"},{"start":4228.5,"end":4230.5,"text":"當已經有平埔原住民族群身份法"},{"start":4230.5,"end":4232.5,"text":"之後"},{"start":4232.5,"end":4234.5,"text":"我們是不是也要考慮"},{"start":4234.5,"end":4236.5,"text":"平埔原住民相關的這些"},{"start":4236.5,"end":4238.5,"text":"權益或所影響的部分"},{"start":4241.71,"end":4243.71,"text":"所以憲法徵修條文第四條"},{"start":4243.71,"end":4245.71,"text":"如果從現行的"},{"start":4245.71,"end":4247.71,"text":"平地原住民及三地原住民各六"},{"start":4247.71,"end":4249.71,"text":"各三人"},{"start":4249.86,"end":4253.86,"text":"修正為自由地區原住民六人"},{"start":4253.86,"end":4255.86,"text":"雖然席次沒有減少"},{"start":4255.89,"end":4257.89,"text":"但是它的風險在哪裡呢"},{"start":4259.13,"end":4261.13,"text":"它的風險就是恐造成憲法法令"},{"start":4261.13,"end":4263.13,"text":"在判決"},{"start":4263.13,"end":4265.13,"text":"不應在其分為三原平原平埔原住民"},{"start":4265.13,"end":4267.13,"text":"這樣的一個重大的風險"},{"start":4267.13,"end":4269.13,"text":"我們必須要深深的去考量"},{"start":4275.14,"end":4277.14,"text":"好我們看"},{"start":4276.78,"end":4278.78,"text":"到底平埔原住民有多少人"},{"start":4279.06,"end":4281.06,"text":"跟紀念政部的統計"},{"start":4281.64,"end":4283.64,"text":"跟紀念政部的統計喔"},{"start":4284.19,"end":4286.19,"text":"107年是98萬1000多人"},{"start":4288.54,"end":4290.54,"text":"如果這是只有登記熟翻的喔"},{"start":4290.54,"end":4292.54,"text":"如果加上通分的"},{"start":4292.54,"end":4294.54,"text":"絕對是100多萬人"},{"start":4294.54,"end":4296.54,"text":"絕對是100多萬人"},{"start":4296.54,"end":4298.54,"text":"這就是平埔原住民的部分"},{"start":4302.38,"end":4304.38,"text":"好它的影響是什麼呢"},{"start":4305.27,"end":4307.27,"text":"如果我們憲法"},{"start":4307.16,"end":4309.16,"text":"改了"},{"start":4308.54,"end":4310.54,"text":"不分三原平原"},{"start":4310.43,"end":4312.43,"text":"我剛講有造成風險"},{"start":4312.43,"end":4314.43,"text":"就不應該在分憲法法庭會再判決"},{"start":4315.85,"end":4317.85,"text":"那我們現在的原住民生法"},{"start":4317.85,"end":4319.85,"text":"平埔原住民族群生法"},{"start":4319.85,"end":4323.85,"text":"就必須要依憲法法庭的判決再修正"},{"start":4323.85,"end":4325.85,"text":"就沒有分三原平原"},{"start":4325.85,"end":4329.85,"text":"而我們原住民保有地26萬7千多公頃"},{"start":4331.69,"end":4333.69,"text":"我們看從"},{"start":4333.6,"end":4335.6,"text":"台北市一直到屏東到台東到花蓮"},{"start":4339.2,"end":4341.2,"text":"只要是原住民身份"},{"start":4341.6,"end":4343.6,"text":"平埔原住民只要是原住民身份就可以買"},{"start":4344.77,"end":4346.77,"text":"原住民保留地"},{"start":4346.77,"end":4348.77,"text":"那我們到底會流失多少"},{"start":4351.5,"end":4353.5,"text":"最重中之重"},{"start":4354.35,"end":4356.35,"text":"剛剛這把土地是重中之重"},{"start":4357.38,"end":4359.38,"text":"第二個重中之重是什麼"},{"start":4360.06,"end":4362.06,"text":"就是我們的教義"},{"start":4362.62,"end":4364.62,"text":"我們現在看"},{"start":4364.36,"end":4368.36,"text":"我們近五年大專校園學生的初再協力"},{"start":4368.36,"end":4370.36,"text":"從107學年度的落差是"},{"start":4370.36,"end":4374.36,"text":"延漢的落差是31.9"},{"start":4374.36,"end":4382.36,"text":"現在高達113年度的落差是38.3"},{"start":4382.57,"end":4384.57,"text":"這樣重大的落差"},{"start":4385.27,"end":4387.27,"text":"100多萬的平埔原住民"},{"start":4388.24,"end":4390.24,"text":"在進來之後"},{"start":4390.26,"end":4392.26,"text":"照說憲法法庭就會說"},{"start":4392.26,"end":4394.26,"text":"尤其是剛才一直提到的"},{"start":4395.01,"end":4397.01,"text":"憲法徵修條文第十條"},{"start":4398.45,"end":4400.45,"text":"第十二項"},{"start":4400.25,"end":4402.25,"text":"這也是紙"},{"start":4401.54,"end":4403.54,"text":"現在判判決的時候"},{"start":4403.54,"end":4405.54,"text":"特別引用的平埔原住民可以進來"},{"start":4406.79,"end":4408.79,"text":"就是引用了第十條第十二項"},{"start":4410.84,"end":4412.84,"text":"他們當然就可以適用"},{"start":4412.84,"end":4414.84,"text":"所有的相關的潛意"},{"start":4414.84,"end":4416.84,"text":"那我們要保障"},{"start":4416.84,"end":4418.84,"text":"我們影響是多少"},{"start":4418.84,"end":4420.84,"text":"我們要不要去評估"},{"start":4420.89,"end":4422.89,"text":"審慎審慎的評估"},{"start":4423.41,"end":4425.41,"text":"當然還包括就業"},{"start":4426.51,"end":4428.51,"text":"就業"},{"start":4427.59,"end":4429.59,"text":"未來"},{"start":4429.3,"end":4431.3,"text":"原住民行政特考"},{"start":4431.3,"end":4433.3,"text":"考上了這到底是"},{"start":4433.3,"end":4435.3,"text":"現在的三言平言"},{"start":4434.78,"end":4436.78,"text":"還是平埔原住民"},{"start":4436.78,"end":4438.78,"text":"未來三地鄉的鄉公所是不是都是"},{"start":4440.43,"end":4442.43,"text":"是不是還是我們平言三言在那邊服務"},{"start":4442.43,"end":4444.43,"text":"這個都必須要去審慎的評估"},{"start":4447.71,"end":4449.71,"text":"所以本席"},{"start":4449.71,"end":4451.71,"text":"過去在上一屆我提了"},{"start":4451.71,"end":4453.71,"text":"憲法徵修條文第四條"},{"start":4454.52,"end":4456.52,"text":"我就是一陳水扁總統的"},{"start":4458.17,"end":4460.17,"text":"原住民與台灣政府"},{"start":4460.17,"end":4462.17,"text":"新夥伴關係文件"},{"start":4463.2,"end":4465.2,"text":"這個新夥伴關係"},{"start":4465.2,"end":4467.2,"text":"協定了是協定了"},{"start":4467.2,"end":4469.2,"text":"按照7A地結法協定就是7A"},{"start":4470.83,"end":4472.83,"text":"但是我們沒有落實"},{"start":4472.83,"end":4474.83,"text":"所以我上一屆提"},{"start":4474.83,"end":4476.83,"text":"很遺憾沒有通過了"},{"start":4477.2,"end":4479.2,"text":"好"},{"start":4478.94,"end":4480.94,"text":"本席這屆提出的是"},{"start":4482.32,"end":4484.32,"text":"好"},{"start":4483.55,"end":4485.55,"text":"維持平言三言"},{"start":4485.95,"end":4487.95,"text":"的一個席次"},{"start":4488.07,"end":4490.07,"text":"那平埔原住民要針對"},{"start":4490.47,"end":4492.47,"text":"針對"},{"start":4492,"end":4494,"text":"一樣三人"},{"start":4494,"end":4496,"text":"但是一開始的時候平埔原住民的人口"},{"start":4496,"end":4498,"text":"可能還沒有那麼多"},{"start":4498,"end":4500,"text":"會逐步的增加"},{"start":4500,"end":4502,"text":"未達30萬以上的時候"},{"start":4502,"end":4504,"text":"每10萬人就有一個席次"},{"start":4504.14,"end":4506.14,"text":"這樣的話我們"},{"start":4505.99,"end":4507.99,"text":"既然這次要修憲的話"},{"start":4507.99,"end":4509.99,"text":"是不是"},{"start":4509.94,"end":4511.94,"text":"修"},{"start":4511.88,"end":4513.88,"text":"平言三言仍然維持"},{"start":4513.88,"end":4515.88,"text":"在針對這個"},{"start":4515.88,"end":4517.88,"text":"平埔原住民的一個席次"},{"start":4517.88,"end":4519.88,"text":"這個部分是"},{"start":4519.88,"end":4521.88,"text":"要特別因為時間的關係"},{"start":4521.88,"end":4523.88,"text":"這個我本來還很多要講的"},{"start":4523.88,"end":4525.88,"text":"等一下這個休息的時候"},{"start":4525.88,"end":4527.88,"text":"再好好的討論"},{"start":4527.88,"end":4529.88,"text":"以上謝謝"},{"start":4529.88,"end":4531.88,"text":"非常感謝鄭天才委員的發言"},{"start":4531.88,"end":4533.88,"text":"那接下來"},{"start":4533.88,"end":4535.88,"text":"我們有請"},{"start":4535.88,"end":4537.88,"text":"東海大學"},{"start":4537.88,"end":4539.88,"text":"陳永峰教授"},{"start":4539.88,"end":4541.88,"text":"請"},{"start":4556.08,"end":4558.08,"text":"主席各位專家學者還有"},{"start":4558.08,"end":4560.08,"text":"在座的各位來賓"},{"start":4560.08,"end":4562.08,"text":"東海大學陳永峰"},{"start":4562.08,"end":4564.08,"text":"報告"},{"start":4563.32,"end":4565.32,"text":"首先"},{"start":4565.32,"end":4567.32,"text":"剛剛聽了三位專家學者"},{"start":4567.32,"end":4569.32,"text":"還有一位立委"},{"start":4569.32,"end":4571.32,"text":"鄭天才委員"},{"start":4573.48,"end":4575.48,"text":"說明"},{"start":4575.48,"end":4577.48,"text":"很大的一個問題是把憲法"},{"start":4577.48,"end":4579.48,"text":"層級的問題跟法律層級的問題"},{"start":4579.48,"end":4581.48,"text":"混在一起"},{"start":4581.48,"end":4583.48,"text":"首先必須"},{"start":4583.48,"end":4585.48,"text":"跟各位報告一下"},{"start":4585.48,"end":4587.48,"text":"在憲法學的觀點裡面"},{"start":4587.48,"end":4589.48,"text":"我們台灣最需要"},{"start":4589.48,"end":4591.48,"text":"修正的是"},{"start":4591.48,"end":4593.48,"text":"徵修條文的第12條"},{"start":4593.48,"end":4595.48,"text":"徵修條文的第12條是修憲條款"},{"start":4595.48,"end":4597.48,"text":"那一條沒有變的話"},{"start":4597.48,"end":4599.48,"text":"我們今天的討論"},{"start":4599.48,"end":4601.48,"text":"大概都不會成真"},{"start":4601.48,"end":4603.48,"text":"但是當然討論是一件重要的事"},{"start":4603.48,"end":4605.48,"text":"徵修條文的第12條是"},{"start":4605.48,"end":4607.48,"text":"憲法之修改"},{"start":4607.48,"end":4609.48,"text":"須經立法院立法委員1%之提議"},{"start":4609.48,"end":4611.48,"text":"3%之出席"},{"start":4611.48,"end":4613.48,"text":"及出席委員3%之決議"},{"start":4613.48,"end":4615.48,"text":"提出憲法修正案"},{"start":4616.51,"end":4618.51,"text":"但重點是後面"},{"start":4618.55,"end":4620.55,"text":"並於公告半年後"},{"start":4620.55,"end":4622.55,"text":"經中華民國自由地區選舉人"},{"start":4622.55,"end":4624.55,"text":"投票復決"},{"start":4624.55,"end":4626.55,"text":"有效同意票過"},{"start":4626.55,"end":4628.55,"text":"選舉人總額之半數"},{"start":4628.55,"end":4630.55,"text":"計通過之"},{"start":4630.85,"end":4634.85,"text":"是2005年的第七次"},{"start":4634.85,"end":4636.85,"text":"修憲的結果"},{"start":4636.85,"end":4638.85,"text":"也許在座也有一些委員曾經參與過"},{"start":4638.85,"end":4640.85,"text":"不好意思因為那一次的修憲"},{"start":4640.85,"end":4642.85,"text":"所以造成我們今天是幾乎不可能修憲"},{"start":4644.5,"end":4646.5,"text":"事實上是這樣"},{"start":4646.5,"end":4648.5,"text":"當然"},{"start":4648.5,"end":4650.5,"text":"邏輯上是還有一些些可能性"},{"start":4650.5,"end":4652.5,"text":"事實上大概無限接近零"},{"start":4652.5,"end":4654.5,"text":"修憲的可能性"},{"start":4654.5,"end":4660.5,"text":"譬如說2022年的18歲公民權"},{"start":4660.5,"end":4662.5,"text":"這次也還有委員提出這樣的修憲案"},{"start":4662.5,"end":4664.5,"text":"18歲公民權"},{"start":4664.5,"end":4666.5,"text":"大概是國民黨跟民進黨"},{"start":4666.5,"end":4668.5,"text":"或其他政黨都不太反對"},{"start":4668.5,"end":4670.5,"text":"的修憲案"},{"start":4670.5,"end":4672.5,"text":"在立法院也通過了"},{"start":4672.5,"end":4674.5,"text":"但是在公民復決的時候"},{"start":4674.5,"end":4676.5,"text":"差很遠"},{"start":4676.5,"end":4678.5,"text":"如果照現在的規則來計算的話"},{"start":4678.5,"end":4680.5,"text":"當初"},{"start":4680.5,"end":4682.5,"text":"四年前需要九百多萬的票"},{"start":4684.51,"end":4686.51,"text":"才有辦法通過"},{"start":4686.51,"end":4688.51,"text":"但實際投出來只有五百萬票"},{"start":4688.83,"end":4690.83,"text":"所以距離非常的遙遠"},{"start":4690.83,"end":4692.83,"text":"數學上一看的話"},{"start":4692.83,"end":4694.83,"text":"就知道可能性非常的低"},{"start":4694.83,"end":4696.83,"text":"另外一個問題"},{"start":4696.83,"end":4698.83,"text":"也是憲法上的問題"},{"start":4698.83,"end":4700.83,"text":"在比較憲法學的立場上面來說的話"},{"start":4700.83,"end":4702.83,"text":"把立委"},{"start":4702.83,"end":4704.83,"text":"就是國會議員的席次"},{"start":4704.83,"end":4706.83,"text":"這是我們今天要討論的重點"},{"start":4708.8,"end":4710.8,"text":"把國會議員的席次入憲"},{"start":4710.8,"end":4712.8,"text":"就放在憲法裡面"},{"start":4712.8,"end":4714.8,"text":"這樣的例子不是太多"},{"start":4715.75,"end":4717.75,"text":"美國的參眾兩院的話"},{"start":4717.75,"end":4719.75,"text":"眾議院是普通法"},{"start":4719.75,"end":4721.75,"text":"參議院的話入憲"},{"start":4721.75,"end":4723.75,"text":"但是一個州兩席"},{"start":4723.75,"end":4725.75,"text":"所以美國就算再多"},{"start":4725.75,"end":4727.75,"text":"一州就是再多兩席"},{"start":4727.75,"end":4729.75,"text":"所以現在是一百席"},{"start":4729.08,"end":4731.08,"text":"五十州一百席"},{"start":4731.08,"end":4733.08,"text":"如果減少一州的話再減兩席"},{"start":4733.08,"end":4735.08,"text":"所以說隨著州數在變化"},{"start":4735.08,"end":4737.08,"text":"日本的話"},{"start":4737.08,"end":4739.08,"text":"我比較熟悉的日本"},{"start":4739.08,"end":4741.08,"text":"完全是法律上的規定"},{"start":4741.89,"end":4743.89,"text":"所以日本常常在改變"},{"start":4743.89,"end":4745.89,"text":"眾議院跟參議院的席次"},{"start":4745.89,"end":4747.89,"text":"有徵有減"},{"start":4747.14,"end":4749.14,"text":"現在的日本的執政黨"},{"start":4749.14,"end":4751.14,"text":"兩黨合起來"},{"start":4751.14,"end":4753.14,"text":"維新黨跟自民黨"},{"start":4753.14,"end":4755.14,"text":"還想要3減50席左右"},{"start":4755.14,"end":4757.14,"text":"的國會議員的席次"},{"start":4757.14,"end":4759.14,"text":"這個都是事實"},{"start":4759.14,"end":4761.14,"text":"但是他們做得到"},{"start":4760.15,"end":4762.15,"text":"為什麼做得到"},{"start":4762.15,"end":4764.15,"text":"因為是法律層級"},{"start":4764.06,"end":4766.06,"text":"如果到憲法審議修憲相當困難"},{"start":4766.06,"end":4768.06,"text":"日本從戰後到現在沒有修憲過"},{"start":4768.06,"end":4770.06,"text":"美國也只有"},{"start":4770.06,"end":4772.06,"text":"修正案但是憲法"},{"start":4772.06,"end":4774.06,"text":"本輪通通沒有動過"},{"start":4774.06,"end":4776.06,"text":"台灣最大的問題是在這裡"},{"start":4776.06,"end":4778.06,"text":"說2005年之後"},{"start":4778.06,"end":4780.06,"text":"實際上那一次的修憲"},{"start":4780.06,"end":4782.06,"text":"已經限制了我們所有"},{"start":4782.06,"end":4783.06,"text":"修憲的可能性"},{"start":4783.06,"end":4785.06,"text":"所以大家必須非常非常的努力"},{"start":4785.06,"end":4787.06,"text":"所以不管是政經財委員提出來的"},{"start":4787.06,"end":4789.06,"text":"3加3加3"},{"start":4789.06,"end":4791.06,"text":"本來6席再加3席的"},{"start":4791.06,"end":4793.06,"text":"因為去年通過的平普"},{"start":4794.05,"end":4796.05,"text":"平普原住民"},{"start":4796.95,"end":4798.95,"text":"族群身份法"},{"start":4799.04,"end":4801.04,"text":"然後預估"},{"start":4801.04,"end":4803.04,"text":"現在預估剛剛政委也有說明了"},{"start":4803.04,"end":4805.04,"text":"預估將近100萬人"},{"start":4805.04,"end":4807.04,"text":"90幾萬人的平普族可能"},{"start":4807.04,"end":4809.04,"text":"加入原住民的行列"},{"start":4810.91,"end":4812.91,"text":"應該要增加3席"},{"start":4812.91,"end":4814.91,"text":"如果就憲法上的公平來說的話"},{"start":4814.91,"end":4816.91,"text":"但是這個也做不到"},{"start":4816.91,"end":4818.91,"text":"事實上"},{"start":4818.72,"end":4820.72,"text":"不可能做得到的事情"},{"start":4820.72,"end":4822.72,"text":"所以在這裡必須建議"},{"start":4824.61,"end":4826.61,"text":"朝野所有的政黨"},{"start":4827.29,"end":4829.29,"text":"必須互相妥協"},{"start":4829.29,"end":4831.29,"text":"好好討論"},{"start":4831.29,"end":4833.29,"text":"修正憲法"},{"start":4833.29,"end":4835.29,"text":"甚至憲法徵收條文的第12條"},{"start":4835.29,"end":4837.29,"text":"的修憲條款"},{"start":4837.29,"end":4839.29,"text":"這個不動的話其他"},{"start":4839.29,"end":4841.29,"text":"我們的討論"},{"start":4841.29,"end":4843.29,"text":"通通是空中樓閣"},{"start":4843.29,"end":4845.29,"text":"不太可能實現"},{"start":4845.29,"end":4847.29,"text":"另外"},{"start":4847.29,"end":4849.29,"text":"還有一個方法"},{"start":4849.35,"end":4851.35,"text":"就是把我們今天討論"},{"start":4853.43,"end":4855.43,"text":"憲法的第4條"},{"start":4855.43,"end":4857.43,"text":"有關於國會議員的"},{"start":4857.43,"end":4859.43,"text":"席次分配"},{"start":4859.43,"end":4861.43,"text":"跟制度的問題排除"},{"start":4861.43,"end":4863.43,"text":"但是這個仍然是第12條"},{"start":4863.43,"end":4865.43,"text":"必須先修正之後"},{"start":4865.43,"end":4867.43,"text":"才有辦法處理"},{"start":4868.65,"end":4870.65,"text":"我們的國會議員的席次"},{"start":4870.65,"end":4872.65,"text":"從憲法裡面排除"},{"start":4872.65,"end":4874.65,"text":"由法律來訂定"},{"start":4874.65,"end":4876.65,"text":"這已經是第二個層次了"},{"start":4876.65,"end":4878.65,"text":"前面那個層次沒有處理完"},{"start":4878.65,"end":4880.65,"text":"這個是沒有辦法處理的"},{"start":4880.65,"end":4882.65,"text":"一樣是修憲問題"},{"start":4882.65,"end":4884.65,"text":"但是我的建議是"},{"start":4884.65,"end":4886.65,"text":"因為還有其他的修憲提案的可能性"},{"start":4886.65,"end":4888.65,"text":"而且憲法是"},{"start":4888.65,"end":4890.65,"text":"跟我們的日常生活"},{"start":4890.65,"end":4892.65,"text":"還有時空國際環境的改變"},{"start":4892.65,"end":4894.65,"text":"有非常大的連結"},{"start":4894.65,"end":4896.65,"text":"所以在這樣的狀況底下"},{"start":4896.65,"end":4898.65,"text":"我們要重新協力"},{"start":4898.65,"end":4900.65,"text":"在立法院通過之後"},{"start":4900.65,"end":4902.65,"text":"好好跟所有的國民來說明"},{"start":4902.65,"end":4904.65,"text":"修正憲法"},{"start":4904.65,"end":4906.65,"text":"徵修條文的第12條"},{"start":4906.65,"end":4908.65,"text":"然後再處理其他的事情"},{"start":4910.27,"end":4912.27,"text":"今天討論的另外一個重點"},{"start":4912.27,"end":4914.27,"text":"當然就是原住民的"},{"start":4916.61,"end":4918.61,"text":"山地原住民跟平地原住民"},{"start":4918.61,"end":4920.61,"text":"是不是這樣的區別要取消"},{"start":4920.61,"end":4924.61,"text":"就我是一個保守主義者"},{"start":4924.61,"end":4926.61,"text":"既然已經存在那麼久"},{"start":4926.61,"end":4928.61,"text":"有一定的道理"},{"start":4928.56,"end":4930.56,"text":"貿然的去更動的話"},{"start":4930.56,"end":4932.56,"text":"也有剛才有發言的"},{"start":4932.56,"end":4934.56,"text":"專家學者認為會"},{"start":4934.56,"end":4936.56,"text":"引發內部的衝突"},{"start":4936.56,"end":4938.56,"text":"只是說憲法是大家一起用的"},{"start":4938.56,"end":4940.56,"text":"憲法是國民跟國家結合的"},{"start":4940.56,"end":4942.56,"text":"非常強力的黏著劑"},{"start":4942.56,"end":4944.56,"text":"所以並不是只為原住民"},{"start":4944.56,"end":4946.56,"text":"而處理"},{"start":4946.56,"end":4948.56,"text":"但是原住民的"},{"start":4948.56,"end":4950.56,"text":"山原跟平原的區別"},{"start":4950.56,"end":4952.56,"text":"還有去年加進來的"},{"start":4952.56,"end":4954.56,"text":"平埔族的問題"},{"start":4954.56,"end":4956.56,"text":"確實是歷史問題"},{"start":4957.16,"end":4959.16,"text":"所以平埔族是首番"},{"start":4959.16,"end":4961.16,"text":"日本統治期"},{"start":4961.16,"end":4963.16,"text":"現在的山原平原是升番"},{"start":4963.16,"end":4965.16,"text":"雖然名稱上"},{"start":4965.16,"end":4967.16,"text":"是不好聽的那一邊"},{"start":4967.16,"end":4969.16,"text":"帶有強烈的歧視性的用語"},{"start":4969.16,"end":4971.16,"text":"這樣的說法"},{"start":4971.16,"end":4973.16,"text":"但是這是歷史留下來的問題"},{"start":4973.16,"end":4975.16,"text":"另外也就是說"},{"start":4975.16,"end":4977.16,"text":"戰後以來不管誰執政"},{"start":4977.16,"end":4979.16,"text":"在行政上充滿了怠惰"},{"start":4979.16,"end":4981.16,"text":"沒有去改"},{"start":4981.04,"end":4983.04,"text":"沒想過"},{"start":4982.32,"end":4984.32,"text":"所以另外一件事"},{"start":4984.32,"end":4988.32,"text":"平埔原住民已經在法裡面被證明了"},{"start":4989.58,"end":4991.58,"text":"再來出現的問題"},{"start":4991.58,"end":4993.58,"text":"比較容易在立法院解決的是"},{"start":4993.58,"end":4995.58,"text":"地方自治法"},{"start":4995.13,"end":4997.13,"text":"地方制度法"},{"start":4997.07,"end":4999.07,"text":"也就是說"},{"start":4999.4,"end":5001.4,"text":"院轄市以下的各個層級的議會"},{"start":5001.4,"end":5003.4,"text":"都有山原跟平原的議員"},{"start":5003.4,"end":5005.4,"text":"那一部分"},{"start":5008.21,"end":5014.21,"text":"怎麼樣把新加入原住民這個團體的"},{"start":5014.21,"end":5016.21,"text":"平埔族的原住民加進去"},{"start":5016.21,"end":5018.21,"text":"這是修法的程式"},{"start":5018.21,"end":5020.21,"text":"可以先做"},{"start":5020.21,"end":5022.21,"text":"先做了之後倒回來"},{"start":5022.21,"end":5024.21,"text":"就會壓迫到憲法"},{"start":5023.48,"end":5027.48,"text":"地方議會裡面已經有平埔族的議員的狀況底下"},{"start":5028.8,"end":5030.8,"text":"早知道國會議員沒有啊"},{"start":5032,"end":5034,"text":"必須告訴各位"},{"start":5034,"end":5036,"text":"憲法沒有修"},{"start":5036,"end":5038,"text":"不會有平埔族的國會議員"},{"start":5036.88,"end":5038.88,"text":"這樣的狀況底下"},{"start":5038.88,"end":5040.88,"text":"會壓迫大家有共識"},{"start":5040.88,"end":5042.88,"text":"包括原住民的內部"},{"start":5042.88,"end":5044.88,"text":"包括立法院的朝野各黨"},{"start":5044.88,"end":5046.88,"text":"還有我們的國民"},{"start":5046.88,"end":5048.88,"text":"都會認真考慮這個問題"},{"start":5048.88,"end":5050.88,"text":"從那邊發動"},{"start":5050.88,"end":5052.88,"text":"或者從法律的層級先解決之後"},{"start":5052.88,"end":5054.88,"text":"憲法的問題再來解決"},{"start":5054.88,"end":5056.88,"text":"我覺得是水到渠成"},{"start":5056.88,"end":5058.88,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":5058.46,"end":5060.46,"text":"好非常感謝"},{"start":5060.46,"end":5062.46,"text":"我們陳永峰主任"},{"start":5062.46,"end":5064.46,"text":"提供非常多寶貴的意見"},{"start":5064.46,"end":5066.46,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":5066.46,"end":5068.46,"text":"接下來我們請到"},{"start":5068.46,"end":5070.46,"text":"張師大劉兆龍教授"},{"start":5070.46,"end":5072.46,"text":"來做發言"},{"start":5072.46,"end":5074.46,"text":"請"},{"start":5074.46,"end":5076.46,"text":"這個議會的主席"},{"start":5076.46,"end":5078.46,"text":"議會的委員專家學者"},{"start":5078.46,"end":5080.46,"text":"大家好我是張化師大劉兆龍"},{"start":5080.46,"end":5082.46,"text":"在報告之前我先提出幾個數據"},{"start":5082.46,"end":5084.46,"text":"給各位同仁做一個參考"},{"start":5084.46,"end":5086.46,"text":"第一個目前內政部統計"},{"start":5086.46,"end":5088.46,"text":"中國原住民數字大概是63萬人"},{"start":5088.46,"end":5090.46,"text":"在63萬人裡面"},{"start":5090.46,"end":5092.46,"text":"都會的原住民"},{"start":5092.46,"end":5094.46,"text":"大概有32.6萬人"},{"start":5094.46,"end":5096.46,"text":"佔了全體原住民的51.8%"},{"start":5096.46,"end":5098.46,"text":"是住在都會區的"},{"start":5098.46,"end":5100.46,"text":"住在都會區原住民的"},{"start":5100.46,"end":5102.46,"text":"桃園最多有9萬人"},{"start":5102.46,"end":5104.46,"text":"第二名是新北"},{"start":5104.46,"end":5106.46,"text":"簡單講的話"},{"start":5106.46,"end":5108.46,"text":"其實這51.8%"},{"start":5108.46,"end":5110.46,"text":"的原住民除了台南以外"},{"start":5110.46,"end":5112.46,"text":"六都"},{"start":5111.76,"end":5113.76,"text":"的比例算是最多"},{"start":5114.24,"end":5116.24,"text":"五都是最高的"},{"start":5116.24,"end":5118.24,"text":"那按照目前我們現在原住民"},{"start":5118.24,"end":5120.24,"text":"立委的選舉制度來講"},{"start":5120.24,"end":5122.24,"text":"是採用SNTV單季"},{"start":5122.24,"end":5124.24,"text":"不可轉讓制度的話"},{"start":5124.24,"end":5126.24,"text":"原住民的當選門檻大概是"},{"start":5126.24,"end":5128.24,"text":"2萬到3萬票之間"},{"start":5128.38,"end":5130.38,"text":"2萬票到3萬票之間"},{"start":5130.38,"end":5132.38,"text":"2萬票到3萬票之間"},{"start":5132.38,"end":5134.38,"text":"比較有意思的是"},{"start":5134.38,"end":5136.38,"text":"第三名跟第四名的當選"},{"start":5136.61,"end":5138.61,"text":"距離是最近的"},{"start":5138.61,"end":5140.61,"text":"以下的數據講完之後"},{"start":5140.61,"end":5142.61,"text":"我基本上贊同陳永峰教授所講的"},{"start":5142.61,"end":5144.61,"text":"就是我們原住民"},{"start":5144.61,"end":5146.61,"text":"我們要現改"},{"start":5146.61,"end":5148.61,"text":"基本上是不容易的"},{"start":5148.61,"end":5150.61,"text":"所以我就試著在我們現有的體制架構之下"},{"start":5150.61,"end":5152.61,"text":"去討論這個案子"},{"start":5152.95,"end":5154.95,"text":"我們可以注意到一件事情"},{"start":5154.95,"end":5156.95,"text":"現席立委的原住民"},{"start":5156.95,"end":5158.95,"text":"六席立委原住民的框架"},{"start":5158.95,"end":5160.95,"text":"我們是可以不用改變的"},{"start":5160.95,"end":5162.95,"text":"這是第一個"},{"start":5162.95,"end":5164.95,"text":"第二個來講的話"},{"start":5164.95,"end":5166.95,"text":"是不是只修選罷法來進行局部的調整"},{"start":5166.95,"end":5168.95,"text":"第二個是我們要去解決一個問題"},{"start":5168.95,"end":5170.95,"text":"第一個問題叫做大組壟斷"},{"start":5170.95,"end":5172.95,"text":"什麼叫大組壟斷呢"},{"start":5172.95,"end":5174.95,"text":"好 下一頁"},{"start":5173.32,"end":5175.32,"text":"現在大組壟斷來講我們可以發現到"},{"start":5175.32,"end":5177.32,"text":"無論是山地平地原住民"},{"start":5177.32,"end":5179.32,"text":"大概就是三個組"},{"start":5179.32,"end":5181.32,"text":"有機會選出原住民立委"},{"start":5181.32,"end":5183.32,"text":"第一個是阿美族"},{"start":5183.32,"end":5185.32,"text":"他的總人口數大概23萬人"},{"start":5185.32,"end":5187.32,"text":"佔全體原住民37.3%"},{"start":5187.32,"end":5189.32,"text":"第二個是排灣族"},{"start":5189.32,"end":5191.32,"text":"總人口數大概11.4萬"},{"start":5191.32,"end":5193.32,"text":"佔18.1%"},{"start":5193.32,"end":5195.32,"text":"第三個是泰雅族"},{"start":5195.32,"end":5197.32,"text":"佔總原住民的人口數"},{"start":5197.32,"end":5199.32,"text":"是16.3%"},{"start":5199.32,"end":5201.32,"text":"這三個原住民加總起來是佔71.7%"},{"start":5203.32,"end":5205.32,"text":"於是我們就會產生第二個問題"},{"start":5205.32,"end":5207.32,"text":"小組消音"},{"start":5207.32,"end":5209.32,"text":"我們就會看到所謂的原族原住民"},{"start":5209.32,"end":5211.32,"text":"如果我們台灣有13到15個原住民族的話"},{"start":5211.32,"end":5213.32,"text":"只有前三個可以選出來的話"},{"start":5213.32,"end":5215.32,"text":"我們就發現大概有10到11個原住民族"},{"start":5215.32,"end":5217.32,"text":"是永遠不可能產生立委的"},{"start":5217.32,"end":5219.32,"text":"那換言之"},{"start":5219.32,"end":5221.32,"text":"你無論制度怎麼設計"},{"start":5221.32,"end":5223.32,"text":"這些原住民的聲音就是不會被出現"},{"start":5223.32,"end":5225.32,"text":"因為在選舉的時候我根本無需刨你這票"},{"start":5225.32,"end":5227.32,"text":"因為我們剛剛已經用最簡單的數學算出來了"},{"start":5228.24,"end":5230.24,"text":"三大族佔71%"},{"start":5230.24,"end":5232.24,"text":"我只要鞏固這71%的選票"},{"start":5232.24,"end":5234.24,"text":"我就可以完全地控制了我的一個當選"},{"start":5234.24,"end":5236.24,"text":"第三個問題就是都會的邊緣化"},{"start":5236.24,"end":5238.24,"text":"我們基本上都認同一件事情"},{"start":5238.24,"end":5240.24,"text":"都會原住民跟山地原住民"},{"start":5240.24,"end":5242.24,"text":"居住在都會原住民跟山地原住民"},{"start":5242.24,"end":5244.24,"text":"他們的利益是不一樣的"},{"start":5244.24,"end":5246.24,"text":"所以說如果我們將集中選票"},{"start":5246.24,"end":5248.24,"text":"我們在現有選舉制度會產生出來的結果是什麼"},{"start":5248.24,"end":5250.24,"text":"就是我們會將"},{"start":5252.83,"end":5254.83,"text":"進選的時候我們就集中在"},{"start":5254.83,"end":5256.83,"text":"都會的原住民去努力拉票就可以了"},{"start":5256.83,"end":5258.83,"text":"那毫無疑問的"},{"start":5258.83,"end":5260.83,"text":"我們會忽略掉山地原住民的利益"},{"start":5260.83,"end":5262.83,"text":"那當然競選成本也會增加"},{"start":5262.83,"end":5264.83,"text":"為什麼 因為全台灣為一個大選區的時候"},{"start":5264.83,"end":5266.83,"text":"這個青年跟素人"},{"start":5266.83,"end":5268.83,"text":"難以參政好下一頁"},{"start":5269.64,"end":5271.64,"text":"希望我們可以注意到"},{"start":5270.97,"end":5272.97,"text":"成如我剛剛所講"},{"start":5273.05,"end":5275.05,"text":"阿美族、泰雅族跟排灣族這三個族"},{"start":5276.22,"end":5278.22,"text":"怎麼選立委都是這三個族"},{"start":5278.22,"end":5280.22,"text":"然後13個原住民族"},{"start":5280.07,"end":5282.07,"text":"基本上是被邊緣化的好下一頁"},{"start":5283.29,"end":5285.29,"text":"我的想法很簡單"},{"start":5285.29,"end":5287.29,"text":"就是說那我們就把六族分開"},{"start":5287.29,"end":5289.29,"text":"第一個是原住民"},{"start":5289.29,"end":5291.29,"text":"我就設計一個制度"},{"start":5291.29,"end":5293.29,"text":"原住民族三席"},{"start":5293.29,"end":5295.29,"text":"然後全國族群不分區三席"},{"start":5295.29,"end":5297.29,"text":"好下一頁"},{"start":5300.55,"end":5302.55,"text":"第一個是區原住民三席"},{"start":5302.55,"end":5304.55,"text":"我們可以試著看看"},{"start":5304.55,"end":5306.55,"text":"把它用區域做分割"},{"start":5307.51,"end":5309.51,"text":"好我們第一個選區是台東花蓮"},{"start":5309.51,"end":5311.51,"text":"因為花東選區花東豪瑜問"},{"start":5311.51,"end":5313.51,"text":"在區域裡面來講是"},{"start":5313.51,"end":5315.51,"text":"極具原住民色彩而且是這個"},{"start":5315.51,"end":5317.51,"text":"當地歷史結合很深"},{"start":5317.51,"end":5319.51,"text":"所以我覺得原住民選區在花東可以是一個選區"},{"start":5319.51,"end":5321.51,"text":"第二個是北部都會區"},{"start":5321.51,"end":5323.51,"text":"因為我們也兼顧北部都會的一個平衡"},{"start":5323.51,"end":5325.51,"text":"包含了"},{"start":5325.51,"end":5327.51,"text":"雙北桃園"},{"start":5327.51,"end":5329.51,"text":"我剛剛講過是原住民第一多第二多的原住民"},{"start":5329.51,"end":5331.51,"text":"說明必須保障都會原住民的利益"},{"start":5331.51,"end":5333.51,"text":"第三個選區是中南部跟離島"},{"start":5333.51,"end":5335.51,"text":"包含苗栗屏東等地的原住民"},{"start":5335.51,"end":5337.51,"text":"這當然也兼顧了一些南投等"},{"start":5339.26,"end":5341.26,"text":"這個原住民的"},{"start":5340.95,"end":5342.95,"text":"這個相限是好"},{"start":5342.95,"end":5344.95,"text":"那他的優點是選區範圍縮小"},{"start":5344.95,"end":5346.95,"text":"競選成本減半大幅降低這個素人參政門檻下一頁"},{"start":5349.52,"end":5351.52,"text":"政黨比例代表是下一頁"},{"start":5352.38,"end":5354.38,"text":"好我們可以"},{"start":5354.38,"end":5356.38,"text":"如果說人口數占未達4%的原住民"},{"start":5356.38,"end":5358.38,"text":"例如"},{"start":5358.38,"end":5360.38,"text":"卑南、盧凱等13個族"},{"start":5360.38,"end":5362.38,"text":"那第二個是他相對弱勢"},{"start":5362.38,"end":5364.38,"text":"就是如果說他人口數雖然超過4%"},{"start":5364.38,"end":5366.38,"text":"但是連續三屆"},{"start":5366.38,"end":5368.38,"text":"12年當中都沒選出區域立委"},{"start":5368.38,"end":5370.38,"text":"可以進入維新原住民的一個保障"},{"start":5370.38,"end":5372.38,"text":"一個範疇裡面"},{"start":5372.38,"end":5374.38,"text":"好下一頁"},{"start":5372.86,"end":5374.86,"text":"好那第一個是說"},{"start":5374.86,"end":5376.86,"text":"政黨在提政黨比例名單的時候"},{"start":5376.86,"end":5378.86,"text":"我們可以要求一件事情"},{"start":5378.86,"end":5380.86,"text":"就是至少要有一名"},{"start":5380.86,"end":5382.86,"text":"符合維新原住民定義的"},{"start":5382.78,"end":5384.78,"text":"這個納入不分區"},{"start":5384.78,"end":5386.78,"text":"第二個是說這個族群雙重審查制"},{"start":5386.78,"end":5388.78,"text":"那這個我怎麼知道他是維族原住民"},{"start":5388.78,"end":5390.78,"text":"要有部落的會議"},{"start":5390.78,"end":5392.78,"text":"族群組織的一個正式推薦書"},{"start":5392.78,"end":5394.78,"text":"好下一頁"},{"start":5394.78,"end":5396.78,"text":"證明他的原住民身份"},{"start":5396.78,"end":5398.78,"text":"第一個是說三席不分區當中"},{"start":5398.78,"end":5400.78,"text":"同一個族群最多只能夠取得一席"},{"start":5400.78,"end":5402.78,"text":"這是第一個"},{"start":5402.78,"end":5404.78,"text":"第二個他的優點是最少有一席保障給"},{"start":5404.78,"end":5406.78,"text":"維新的原住民"},{"start":5406.78,"end":5408.78,"text":"讓他們聲音能夠在立法院當中"},{"start":5408.78,"end":5410.78,"text":"確實發聲好下一頁"},{"start":5410.75,"end":5412.75,"text":"好那我們真實的情況"},{"start":5412.75,"end":5414.75,"text":"你一定就說第一個"},{"start":5414,"end":5416,"text":"第一個順位可能阿美族太牙族"},{"start":5416,"end":5418,"text":"他們是順利取得一席"},{"start":5418,"end":5420,"text":"第二個掃描第二順位的時候"},{"start":5420,"end":5422,"text":"那如果小族仍然是"},{"start":5422,"end":5424,"text":"臨席的時候"},{"start":5424,"end":5426,"text":"這個我們就要退出來"},{"start":5426,"end":5428,"text":"讓小族可以進入"},{"start":5428,"end":5430,"text":"那這樣子的話我們可以在政黨比例不分區面"},{"start":5430,"end":5432,"text":"達到確實保障"},{"start":5432,"end":5434,"text":"這個小族的一個利益"},{"start":5434,"end":5436,"text":"好下一頁"},{"start":5436.53,"end":5438.53,"text":"那我們如果來做一個系統性的比較來講的話"},{"start":5438.53,"end":5440.53,"text":"我們會發現到現行六席的選制來講"},{"start":5440.53,"end":5442.53,"text":"競選成本是你要全台灣跑透透"},{"start":5442.53,"end":5444.53,"text":"第二是小族被多數暴力給侵吞"},{"start":5444.53,"end":5446.53,"text":"三大族佔71%左右"},{"start":5446.53,"end":5448.53,"text":"等於是佔七成"},{"start":5448.53,"end":5450.53,"text":"可是又30%的聲音"},{"start":5450.53,"end":5452.53,"text":"是完全沒有任何出現空間"},{"start":5452.53,"end":5454.53,"text":"這個其實是一個"},{"start":5454.53,"end":5456.53,"text":"這個其實是一個"},{"start":5457.12,"end":5459.12,"text":"不公平的現象"},{"start":5460.7,"end":5462.7,"text":"原鄉龐大的基本盤給稀釋掉"},{"start":5462.7,"end":5464.7,"text":"這也是另外一個問題"},{"start":5464.7,"end":5466.7,"text":"第三個是這個新制的六席來講"},{"start":5466.7,"end":5468.7,"text":"第一個我只要處理三分之一台灣的選區就好了"},{"start":5468.7,"end":5470.7,"text":"第二個是強制逮捕"},{"start":5472.81,"end":5474.81,"text":"維新的住民民主"},{"start":5474.81,"end":5476.81,"text":"他可以獲得保障"},{"start":5476.81,"end":5478.81,"text":"而且這個特別是北部跟雙北"},{"start":5480.02,"end":5482.02,"text":"這個都會區的原住民立委"},{"start":5482.02,"end":5484.02,"text":"幾乎是保障的都會區原住民立委"},{"start":5484.68,"end":5486.68,"text":"他們的存在"},{"start":5486.68,"end":5488.68,"text":"因為我們剛剛做出來統計就是"},{"start":5488.68,"end":5490.68,"text":"桃園跟新北這兩個地方的原住民"},{"start":5490.73,"end":5492.73,"text":"的都會原住民數量是最高的"},{"start":5492.73,"end":5494.73,"text":"所以怎麼選在我剛剛的選字裡面"},{"start":5494.73,"end":5496.73,"text":"在北部地區一定是選出來"},{"start":5496.73,"end":5498.73,"text":"那個都會型的原住民"},{"start":5498.73,"end":5500.73,"text":"好下一位"},{"start":5501.08,"end":5503.08,"text":"那這會有幾個好處"},{"start":5503.08,"end":5505.08,"text":"第一個好處就是說"},{"start":5505.08,"end":5507.08,"text":"第一個落實民主代表性"},{"start":5507.08,"end":5509.08,"text":"然後區域深耕"},{"start":5509.08,"end":5511.08,"text":"第二個是我也正視都會原住民的利益"},{"start":5511.08,"end":5513.08,"text":"他也不會跟山地原住民進行衝突"},{"start":5513.08,"end":5515.08,"text":"第三個是落實保底"},{"start":5515.08,"end":5517.08,"text":"就是我們這30%永遠不會選出來立委的"},{"start":5517.08,"end":5519.08,"text":"維新原住民"},{"start":5519.08,"end":5521.08,"text":"他也有一席"},{"start":5521.08,"end":5523.08,"text":"可以進入國會裡面最少一席"},{"start":5523.08,"end":5525.08,"text":"基本上來講就是第一個"},{"start":5525.08,"end":5527.08,"text":"我無碰觸到修憲"},{"start":5527.08,"end":5529.08,"text":"是處理選罷法問題"},{"start":5529.55,"end":5531.55,"text":"第二個是"},{"start":5531.55,"end":5533.55,"text":"如何去彌平現在的"},{"start":5533.55,"end":5535.55,"text":"大黨跟地方派系的主力"},{"start":5535.55,"end":5537.55,"text":"這是我們下個要討論的問題"},{"start":5537.55,"end":5539.55,"text":"當然這個是一個"},{"start":5539.55,"end":5541.55,"text":"很粗略的一個雛形"},{"start":5541.55,"end":5543.55,"text":"我們希望說經由這個制度"},{"start":5543.55,"end":5545.55,"text":"能夠去努力去平權"},{"start":5545.55,"end":5547.55,"text":"就是說原住民能不能夠兼顧"},{"start":5549.02,"end":5551.02,"text":"就是山地跟都會"},{"start":5551.02,"end":5553.02,"text":"然後族群的平等"},{"start":5553.02,"end":5555.02,"text":"但因為這是一個很複雜的歷史問題"},{"start":5555.02,"end":5557.02,"text":"我只能說試著提出一個思考方向"},{"start":5557.02,"end":5559.02,"text":"以救教各位方家"},{"start":5559.02,"end":5561.02,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":5562.17,"end":5564.17,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":5563.52,"end":5566.52,"text":"我們張師大的劉兆龍教授"},{"start":5566.52,"end":5568.52,"text":"提供非常多寶貴的意見"},{"start":5568.52,"end":5570.52,"text":"接下來呢"},{"start":5570.52,"end":5571.52,"text":"我們有請"},{"start":5571.52,"end":5573.52,"text":"也是我們的前立法委員"},{"start":5573.52,"end":5579.52,"text":"目前是台灣原住民文教基金會的蔡中涵董事長"},{"start":5600.94,"end":5602.94,"text":"主席"},{"start":5602.94,"end":5604.94,"text":"各位委員各位專家學者"},{"start":5605.45,"end":5607.45,"text":"二十幾年第一次"},{"start":5607.45,"end":5609.45,"text":"站這個講台有一點緊張"},{"start":5610.36,"end":5612.36,"text":"好進入主題"},{"start":5613.96,"end":5615.96,"text":"我在思考的問題是"},{"start":5615.96,"end":5617.96,"text":"原住民的保障制度"},{"start":5617.96,"end":5619.96,"text":"是不是已經不可遲疑"},{"start":5619.96,"end":5621.96,"text":"所以我們才要想到說"},{"start":5621.96,"end":5623.96,"text":"要去修憲"},{"start":5623.96,"end":5625.96,"text":"要去增加一些保障的制度"},{"start":5629.21,"end":5631.21,"text":"但是"},{"start":5630.97,"end":5632.97,"text":"咳"},{"start":5632.89,"end":5634.89,"text":"在這次宣判的主文裡面"},{"start":5634.89,"end":5636.89,"text":"他也沒有否定"},{"start":5636.89,"end":5640.89,"text":"山地原住民跟平地原住民的存在"},{"start":5640.89,"end":5644.89,"text":"所以現在的現行分類的制度"},{"start":5644.89,"end":5646.89,"text":"還是"},{"start":5647.94,"end":5649.94,"text":"合適的"},{"start":5649.94,"end":5651.94,"text":"當然這裡面就有人提到"},{"start":5651.94,"end":5653.94,"text":"要去殖民化"},{"start":5653.94,"end":5655.94,"text":"我當然就贊成"},{"start":5655.94,"end":5657.94,"text":"但是"},{"start":5658.35,"end":5660.35,"text":"去殖民化"},{"start":5660.28,"end":5662.28,"text":"要知道日本留下來很多"},{"start":5662.28,"end":5664.28,"text":"政策跟行政的"},{"start":5664.28,"end":5666.28,"text":"這個措施"},{"start":5666.28,"end":5668.28,"text":"不是光是把山地平地分開來"},{"start":5668.28,"end":5670.28,"text":"哪裡"},{"start":5670.28,"end":5672.28,"text":"比如說"},{"start":5671.38,"end":5673.38,"text":"宣判的主文裡面也引用了"},{"start":5673.38,"end":5675.38,"text":"日本時代的"},{"start":5675.38,"end":5677.38,"text":"戶籍登記的完整性"},{"start":5679.16,"end":5681.16,"text":"然後我們也必須考慮到"},{"start":5681.16,"end":5683.16,"text":"日本時期的土地登記"},{"start":5683.16,"end":5685.16,"text":"所以如果我們要"},{"start":5685.16,"end":5687.16,"text":"真心的去殖民化的話"},{"start":5689.23,"end":5691.23,"text":"我們應該把這些全部"},{"start":5691.23,"end":5693.23,"text":"是不是要去想到的全部去掉"},{"start":5693.23,"end":5695.23,"text":"那這樣才是完整的"},{"start":5695.23,"end":5697.23,"text":"去止的行為"},{"start":5703.29,"end":5705.29,"text":"另外也提到"},{"start":5705.7,"end":5707.7,"text":"剛剛有幾位專家學者也提到"},{"start":5707.7,"end":5709.7,"text":"這個立法委員的席次"},{"start":5711.73,"end":5713.73,"text":"當然"},{"start":5713.89,"end":5715.89,"text":"就是全部"},{"start":5716.98,"end":5718.98,"text":"毫不溝通的全部就是六席"},{"start":5720.59,"end":5722.59,"text":"六席剛剛的"},{"start":5722.59,"end":5724.59,"text":"師大教授也提到"},{"start":5725.57,"end":5727.57,"text":"將來大祖"},{"start":5727.41,"end":5729.41,"text":"還是優先會當選"}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.679999999999,"end":6781.48,"text":"那考量到族人的投票傾向"},{"start":6781.48,"end":6782.679999999999,"text":"譬如說"},{"start":6782.679999999999,"end":6784.179999999999,"text":"淡江大學包正豪老師"},{"start":6784.179999999999,"end":6786.08,"text":"曾經做過的研究指出"},{"start":6786.08,"end":6788.08,"text":"三地原住民的投票傾向"},{"start":6788.08,"end":6790.08,"text":"投給自己民族的候選人"},{"start":6790.08,"end":6792.58,"text":"但是平地原住民的傾向會受到"},{"start":6792.58,"end":6795.58,"text":"投票傾向會受到政黨的動員比較大"},{"start":6795.58,"end":6797.68,"text":"那如果做這樣的一個推估的話"},{"start":6797.68,"end":6798.78,"text":"我們會發現"},{"start":6798.78,"end":6801.48,"text":"在阿美族 泰雅族 排灣族以外"},{"start":6801.48,"end":6804.58,"text":"有可能在中型的人口的族群"},{"start":6804.58,"end":6808.08,"text":"會產生原住民族的立法委員的代表"},{"start":6808.08,"end":6808.98,"text":"布農族"},{"start":6808.98,"end":6810.58,"text":"或者是泰魯閣族"},{"start":6810.58,"end":6812.28,"text":"那從另外一個方式來看"},{"start":6812.28,"end":6814.48,"text":"如果我們改採單一選區"},{"start":6814.48,"end":6816.98,"text":"就是不要讓原住民的立法委員選舉"},{"start":6816.98,"end":6818.48,"text":"像是在選總統一樣"},{"start":6818.48,"end":6820.78,"text":"要跑全國的選區的話"},{"start":6820.78,"end":6822.28,"text":"那在我們的這個研究中"},{"start":6822.28,"end":6826.48,"text":"也曾經試做過把全國化成六個選區"},{"start":6826.48,"end":6828.28,"text":"劃分的原則考量到"},{"start":6828.28,"end":6831.679999999999,"text":"每一個選區的人口數要盡量相近"},{"start":6831.679999999999,"end":6834.48,"text":"同一個族群盡量劃在同一個選區"},{"start":6834.48,"end":6837.08,"text":"地理位置上面要有一些延續性"},{"start":6837.08,"end":6839.379999999999,"text":"這樣釋劃下來得到的結果"},{"start":6839.379999999999,"end":6841.379999999999,"text":"也有幾種的可能性"},{"start":6841.379999999999,"end":6843.48,"text":"考量到投票的傾向"},{"start":6843.48,"end":6844.48,"text":"有幾種可能"},{"start":6844.48,"end":6846.48,"text":"包含阿美族三席"},{"start":6846.48,"end":6847.48,"text":"泰雅族兩席"},{"start":6847.48,"end":6848.48,"text":"排灣族一席"},{"start":6848.48,"end":6851.28,"text":"或者是如果有小黨合作的時候"},{"start":6851.28,"end":6852.879999999999,"text":"也可能是阿美族三席"},{"start":6852.879999999999,"end":6853.679999999999,"text":"泰雅一席"},{"start":6853.679999999999,"end":6854.28,"text":"布農一席"},{"start":6854.28,"end":6855.08,"text":"排灣一席"},{"start":6855.08,"end":6857.28,"text":"或者是這個"},{"start":6857.28,"end":6859.48,"text":"小黨合作失敗的"},{"start":6859.48,"end":6861.28,"text":"小族合作對不起"},{"start":6861.28,"end":6864.28,"text":"小族群合作或中型族群合作失敗的時候"},{"start":6864.28,"end":6865.379999999999,"text":"阿美族四席"},{"start":6865.379999999999,"end":6866.179999999999,"text":"泰雅族一席"},{"start":6866.179999999999,"end":6867.179999999999,"text":"排灣族一席"},{"start":6867.179999999999,"end":6870.78,"text":"那這個是最後我的這個建議"},{"start":6870.78,"end":6871.48,"text":"第一個"},{"start":6871.48,"end":6874.48,"text":"就是取消三元跟平原的分類"},{"start":6874.48,"end":6876.28,"text":"確實有它解釋上的意義"},{"start":6876.28,"end":6877.48,"text":"剛才已經提到"},{"start":6877.48,"end":6878.679999999999,"text":"這種人群的分類"},{"start":6878.679999999999,"end":6880.78,"text":"是把過去行政的分類"},{"start":6880.78,"end":6882.78,"text":"行政區的分類方式"},{"start":6882.78,"end":6885.58,"text":"偷換概念轉換成對人群的分類"},{"start":6885.58,"end":6888.879999999999,"text":"它對於這個政治權的行使產生影響"},{"start":6888.879999999999,"end":6889.879999999999,"text":"第二個"},{"start":6889.879999999999,"end":6893.28,"text":"在取消三元平原的分類的作法之下"},{"start":6893.28,"end":6896.08,"text":"未來是必要對於選制上面"},{"start":6896.08,"end":6898.08,"text":"去進行進一步的思考"},{"start":6898.08,"end":6900.78,"text":"那剛才提到維持複數選區"},{"start":6900.78,"end":6903.08,"text":"或者是改換成單一選區"},{"start":6903.08,"end":6906.08,"text":"就會產生這個可能的"},{"start":6906.08,"end":6909.58,"text":"這個當選的人的族群的分布比例的"},{"start":6909.58,"end":6910.78,"text":"變動的問題"},{"start":6910.78,"end":6913.08,"text":"那這當然也會涉及到選區的"},{"start":6913.08,"end":6915.08,"text":"這個劃設跟安排"},{"start":6915.08,"end":6917.679999999999,"text":"那不過在這邊的前提都是"},{"start":6917.679999999999,"end":6921.179999999999,"text":"在現有的投票傾向之下的預測"},{"start":6921.179999999999,"end":6922.679999999999,"text":"當然也有一個可能是"},{"start":6922.679999999999,"end":6924.88,"text":"取消三元跟平原之後"},{"start":6924.88,"end":6927.58,"text":"那現有的投票傾向會改變"},{"start":6927.58,"end":6930.38,"text":"那也有可能是有新的變化"},{"start":6930.88,"end":6932.68,"text":"那在這個大的前提之下"},{"start":6932.68,"end":6934.68,"text":"我也想要再提一件事情"},{"start":6934.68,"end":6936.9800000000005,"text":"就是延伸的這個"},{"start":6936.9800000000005,"end":6939.68,"text":"行政的區劃跟土地的議題"},{"start":6939.68,"end":6940.4800000000005,"text":"譬如說"},{"start":6940.4800000000005,"end":6943.78,"text":"原本落在關係的錦山裡的泰雅族"},{"start":6943.78,"end":6945.28,"text":"是不是應該要回歸到"},{"start":6946.05,"end":6947.15,"text":"堅實相去"},{"start":6947.15,"end":6949.65,"text":"去做這個行政區劃重新調整"},{"start":6949.65,"end":6950.65,"text":"再來"},{"start":6950.65,"end":6953.05,"text":"更進一步要談的是土地的議題"},{"start":6953.05,"end":6954.55,"text":"剛才中委員有提到"},{"start":6954.55,"end":6957.15,"text":"是憲法徵修條文第十條"},{"start":6957.15,"end":6959.45,"text":"那其實我們整個現在的"},{"start":6959.45,"end":6961.55,"text":"原住民族的保留地制度"},{"start":6961.55,"end":6964.95,"text":"也是跟剛才所顯示出來的這一張"},{"start":6964.95,"end":6967.75,"text":"日治時期的特別行政區有關"},{"start":6967.75,"end":6969.849999999999,"text":"也就是只有在日治時期的"},{"start":6969.849999999999,"end":6971.55,"text":"特別行政區裡面"},{"start":6971.55,"end":6973.349999999999,"text":"才劃設有當時所謂的"},{"start":6974.35,"end":6976.75,"text":"也就是後來的原住民保留地"},{"start":6976.75,"end":6977.75,"text":"換句話說"},{"start":6977.75,"end":6980.25,"text":"當時在一般行政區中的"},{"start":6980.25,"end":6982.55,"text":"像是大部分的阿美族跟貝蘭族"},{"start":6982.55,"end":6984.950000000001,"text":"並沒有這樣子一種土地權的"},{"start":6984.950000000001,"end":6986.950000000001,"text":"這樣的一種設計"},{"start":6986.950000000001,"end":6989.150000000001,"text":"那如果我們今天要回歸到"},{"start":6989.150000000001,"end":6992.55,"text":"這個對於日治時期的這個"},{"start":6992.55,"end":6995.55,"text":"特別行政區的劃分的重新的檢討"},{"start":6995.55,"end":6998.25,"text":"土地上面是不是也是要去對於"},{"start":6998.25,"end":7000.450000000001,"text":"原住民保留地當初的劃設"},{"start":7000.450000000001,"end":7002.25,"text":"去進行重新的檢討"},{"start":7002.25,"end":7003.85,"text":"甚至對於這個"},{"start":7003.85,"end":7005.65,"text":"原住民族傳統領域權"},{"start":7005.65,"end":7008.85,"text":"在憲法徵收條文第十條第十二項裡面"},{"start":7008.85,"end":7011.25,"text":"予以有進一步的確認跟保障"},{"start":7011.25,"end":7012.65,"text":"那以上是我的建議"},{"start":7012.65,"end":7013.15,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":7014.91,"end":7016.11,"text":"謝謝關大偉教授"},{"start":7016.11,"end":7019.01,"text":"接下來有請吳欣洋律師發言"},{"start":7037.26,"end":7037.76,"text":"主席"},{"start":7039.8,"end":7042,"text":"各位學者專家"},{"start":7042,"end":7044.1,"text":"還有立法院同仁大家好"},{"start":7044.1,"end":7045.700000000001,"text":"我是吳欣洋律師"},{"start":7045.700000000001,"end":7046.700000000001,"text":"那之前"},{"start":7047.400000000001,"end":7050,"text":"留學時候是研究國際人權法"},{"start":7050,"end":7053.6,"text":"那今天就一些關於國際人權法跟法律史的角度"},{"start":7053.6,"end":7055.7,"text":"那我來提供一些補充"},{"start":7055.7,"end":7058.2,"text":"剛才關大偉教授已經提出了一些"},{"start":7058.2,"end":7059.6,"text":"說明跟論點"},{"start":7059.6,"end":7061,"text":"那我非常贊同"},{"start":7061,"end":7062.1,"text":"那在這個基礎之上"},{"start":7062.1,"end":7063.3,"text":"我還是要來講一下"},{"start":7063.3,"end":7064.5,"text":"今天如果來修憲"},{"start":7064.5,"end":7067.2,"text":"為什麼要把這個山地跟"},{"start":7067.2,"end":7068.900000000001,"text":"平地原住民的這個"},{"start":7068.900000000001,"end":7069.900000000001,"text":"名詞呢"},{"start":7069.900000000001,"end":7072.3,"text":"我們有拿掉的這個必要"},{"start":7072.3,"end":7076.1,"text":"好那我今天主要是按照這個大會來的這個"},{"start":7077.23,"end":7079.33,"text":"要旨大概分成四個部分"},{"start":7079.33,"end":7082.629999999999,"text":"第一個是來說明一下這個分類的由來跟依序"},{"start":7082.629999999999,"end":7083.33,"text":"第二個"},{"start":7083.33,"end":7085.129999999999,"text":"因為有一些意見的總和"},{"start":7085.129999999999,"end":7086.429999999999,"text":"所以我做了一點比較"},{"start":7086.429999999999,"end":7089.929999999999,"text":"第三個是當然大會來的這個文件裡面有問到說"},{"start":7089.929999999999,"end":7091.53,"text":"怎麼樣的選舉制度或文字"},{"start":7091.53,"end":7093.53,"text":"那我也大概也想了一下"},{"start":7093.53,"end":7097.429999999999,"text":"最後一個是關於考量方向跟國際人權法上的意見的結合"},{"start":7097.429999999999,"end":7099.03,"text":"那剛才關大偉教授提到部分"},{"start":7099.03,"end":7100.429999999999,"text":"我就不再重複"},{"start":7100.429999999999,"end":7102.129999999999,"text":"那我來講一下說關於這個"},{"start":7102.129999999999,"end":7105.23,"text":"為什麼我們說他是日治時期這個殖民的依序"},{"start":7105.23,"end":7107.53,"text":"其實為什麼今天有所謂的平地原住民"},{"start":7107.53,"end":7109.429999999999,"text":"我們回推到1914年"},{"start":7109.429999999999,"end":7112.03,"text":"1914年是第一次世界大戰開始的時候"},{"start":7112.03,"end":7115.129999999999,"text":"也是五年李帆計畫的最後一部分的時候"},{"start":7115.129999999999,"end":7117.129999999999,"text":"所以從那個時候才有辦法開始進行"},{"start":7117.129999999999,"end":7120.429999999999,"text":"所謂的戶口調查深入到所謂特別行政區"},{"start":7120.429999999999,"end":7121.629999999999,"text":"當時叫帆地"},{"start":7121.629999999999,"end":7123.83,"text":"那為什麼我們說平地原住民"},{"start":7123.83,"end":7126.03,"text":"是跟這個1914年有關係呢"},{"start":7126.03,"end":7128.73,"text":"因為之所以帆地的界線能夠確認"},{"start":7128.73,"end":7131.929999999999,"text":"是從1914年大致才能夠開始"},{"start":7131.929999999999,"end":7135.03,"text":"那所謂的平地原住民往前推到日治時期"},{"start":7135.03,"end":7136.83,"text":"是稱為所謂的平地凡人"},{"start":7136.83,"end":7138.23,"text":"平地凡人在法律上"},{"start":7138.23,"end":7140.13,"text":"也就是法規上的定義是什麼"},{"start":7140.13,"end":7143.23,"text":"就是乃至居住於普通行政區域的身份"},{"start":7143.23,"end":7144.63,"text":"好那這個就跟"},{"start":7145.24,"end":7147.139999999999,"text":"日治時期所謂的原住民的分類"},{"start":7147.139999999999,"end":7148.84,"text":"或是所謂的Family的分類"},{"start":7148.84,"end":7151.639999999999,"text":"有所由來"},{"start":7151.639999999999,"end":7152.44,"text":"那也就是說"},{"start":7152.44,"end":7155.34,"text":"這個平地凡人是居住於普通行政區的身份"},{"start":7155.34,"end":7157.44,"text":"這一句其實是一直延續到現在"},{"start":7157.44,"end":7161.34,"text":"中華民國現在所在使用的平地與山地的分類的起源"},{"start":7161.34,"end":7162.24,"text":"也就是說"},{"start":7162.24,"end":7165.139999999999,"text":"今天你是山地原住民或平地原住民"},{"start":7165.139999999999,"end":7167.639999999999,"text":"取決的不是你的地域的概念"},{"start":7167.639999999999,"end":7168.94,"text":"不是你的種族概念"},{"start":7168.94,"end":7169.94,"text":"不是你的族群概念"},{"start":7169.94,"end":7171.24,"text":"不是你的文化概念"},{"start":7171.24,"end":7173.139999999999,"text":"而是取決於你的阿公住多高"},{"start":7173.9,"end":7175.799999999999,"text":"當你的阿公住比較高的時候"},{"start":7175.799999999999,"end":7177.4,"text":"你就被分為山地原住民"},{"start":7177.4,"end":7179,"text":"當你的阿公住比較低的時候"},{"start":7179,"end":7180.4,"text":"比較接近漢人的時候"},{"start":7180.4,"end":7182.4,"text":"你就被分為平地原住民"},{"start":7182.4,"end":7184.2,"text":"所以這也不是一個"},{"start":7184.2,"end":7186.799999999999,"text":"跟我們現在所謂的族別語言文化"},{"start":7186.799999999999,"end":7188.9,"text":"有絕對關聯的一個分類"},{"start":7188.9,"end":7190.5,"text":"那這個這樣的分類呢"},{"start":7190.5,"end":7193.799999999999,"text":"從頭到尾都是由行政機關單方面所發起"},{"start":7193.799999999999,"end":7195.599999999999,"text":"而不是來自於原住民"},{"start":7195.599999999999,"end":7199.299999999999,"text":"自己本身內部自我認定的產生的結果"},{"start":7200.53,"end":7202.63,"text":"那我們簡單很快的看一下"},{"start":7202.63,"end":7203.73,"text":"日治時期的分類"},{"start":7203.73,"end":7205.53,"text":"其實把原住民分成"},{"start":7205.53,"end":7206.83,"text":"當時稱為藩人"},{"start":7206.83,"end":7208.83,"text":"分成熟藩、化藩、森藩"},{"start":7208.83,"end":7211.03,"text":"那已經有這個三分類法以後"},{"start":7211.03,"end":7214.63,"text":"又因為這個平地也是"},{"start":7214.63,"end":7217.13,"text":"普通行政區也住有所謂的森藩"},{"start":7217.13,"end":7218.93,"text":"所以為了管理上的方便"},{"start":7218.93,"end":7221.93,"text":"所以又另外劃分了一個平地藩人"},{"start":7221.93,"end":7223.33,"text":"但是這樣的劃分方法"},{"start":7223.33,"end":7224.53,"text":"從頭到尾都建立在"},{"start":7224.53,"end":7226.73,"text":"警察行政的管理方面之上"},{"start":7226.73,"end":7228.73,"text":"所以它根本跟這個"},{"start":7228.73,"end":7231.429999999999,"text":"個人、族群或者它的界線"},{"start":7231.429999999999,"end":7233.429999999999,"text":"是沒有絕對相關的"},{"start":7233.429999999999,"end":7234.629999999999,"text":"而這樣的分類方法"},{"start":7234.629999999999,"end":7236.53,"text":"其實在1900年的時候"},{"start":7236.53,"end":7238.33,"text":"光自己也就是寫台灣"},{"start":7238.33,"end":7242.23,"text":"藩人事情的作者"},{"start":7242.23,"end":7243.929999999999,"text":"那個一能家局"},{"start":7243.929999999999,"end":7245.03,"text":"他自己也說"},{"start":7245.03,"end":7247.73,"text":"這樣的分類其實是有欠科學的基礎"},{"start":7248.92,"end":7250.52,"text":"那為什麼會有平地藩人"},{"start":7250.52,"end":7252.42,"text":"也就是現在的平地原住民"},{"start":7252.42,"end":7253.82,"text":"這樣的概念出來呢"},{"start":7253.82,"end":7257.12,"text":"其實最早是源自於東台灣的統治經驗"},{"start":7257.12,"end":7259.12,"text":"因為開發的模式不一樣"},{"start":7259.12,"end":7261.32,"text":"因為民藩雜居的情形不同"},{"start":7261.32,"end":7263.62,"text":"所以來徹底創造出這個"},{"start":7263.62,"end":7265.22,"text":"在普通行政區"},{"start":7265.22,"end":7267.52,"text":"也有森藩居住的情形下"},{"start":7267.52,"end":7269.52,"text":"要如何去管理去治理"},{"start":7269.52,"end":7270.92,"text":"因為它劃不出界線"},{"start":7270.92,"end":7272.12,"text":"當時的民藩混居"},{"start":7272.12,"end":7275.02,"text":"因為在清朝歷代下來的關係"},{"start":7275.02,"end":7276.42,"text":"已經難以再去劃分"},{"start":7276.42,"end":7277.92,"text":"不像後來的日治時期"},{"start":7277.92,"end":7279.12,"text":"其他在山地的部分"},{"start":7279.12,"end":7280.42,"text":"還有愛永縣的推進"},{"start":7280.42,"end":7281.92,"text":"透過理藩政策推進"},{"start":7281.92,"end":7283.42,"text":"利用愛永縣來劃分"},{"start":7283.42,"end":7285.42,"text":"那這樣的結果造成了什麼結果"},{"start":7285.42,"end":7287.92,"text":"從一開始就使得阿美族跟卑南族"},{"start":7287.92,"end":7290.92,"text":"在官方的分類上被劃分為森藩"},{"start":7290.92,"end":7292.12,"text":"可是因為它的界線"},{"start":7292.12,"end":7293.92,"text":"跟普通行政區劃不開"},{"start":7293.92,"end":7295.32,"text":"所以還是整批的被劃到"},{"start":7295.32,"end":7297.42,"text":"普通行政區的行政區域"},{"start":7297.42,"end":7298.42,"text":"那這個時候"},{"start":7298.42,"end":7300.92,"text":"原來的山地藩人跟所謂的平地藩人"},{"start":7300.92,"end":7302.12,"text":"用當時的用語的話"},{"start":7302.12,"end":7303.82,"text":"就因此被切開了"},{"start":7303.82,"end":7304.92,"text":"這樣的切開呢"},{"start":7304.92,"end":7308.42,"text":"是什麼樣漸漸的進入到這個法治當中呢"},{"start":7308.42,"end":7309.92,"text":"從1896年開始"},{"start":7309.92,"end":7312.62,"text":"1905 1910一直到1914"},{"start":7312.62,"end":7314.42,"text":"大部分全島的理藩政策"},{"start":7314.42,"end":7316.32,"text":"平定到一個階段的時候"},{"start":7316.32,"end":7318.42,"text":"才開始進行西部的劃分"},{"start":7318.42,"end":7319.42,"text":"那也就是說"},{"start":7319.42,"end":7321.92,"text":"我們現在所謂的山地原住民跟平地原住民"},{"start":7321.92,"end":7322.92,"text":"往前推的話"},{"start":7322.92,"end":7325.22,"text":"是在1914年才開始"},{"start":7325.22,"end":7327.42,"text":"就已經有這樣的行政區劃"},{"start":7329.11,"end":7331.11,"text":"可是這樣的行政區劃目的是為了什麼"},{"start":7331.11,"end":7332.61,"text":"我們講管理上的方便"},{"start":7332.61,"end":7334.11,"text":"包含了翻社行政"},{"start":7334.11,"end":7335.11,"text":"土地租稅"},{"start":7335.11,"end":7336.11,"text":"警察管理"},{"start":7336.11,"end":7337.11,"text":"戶口管理"},{"start":7337.11,"end":7338.11,"text":"行事政策"},{"start":7338.11,"end":7339.61,"text":"以及參政權的保障"},{"start":7339.61,"end":7340.61,"text":"在日治時期"},{"start":7340.61,"end":7342.11,"text":"它分別就平地"},{"start":7343.06,"end":7345.06,"text":"所謂的平地藩人跟山地藩人"},{"start":7345.06,"end":7346.06,"text":"藩地藩人"},{"start":7346.06,"end":7348.06,"text":"做出了區分"},{"start":7348.06,"end":7349.06,"text":"這樣的區分之下"},{"start":7349.06,"end":7351.06,"text":"是不是被每個族群所接受呢"},{"start":7351.06,"end":7352.06,"text":"事實上也不是"},{"start":7352.06,"end":7353.56,"text":"從歷史的研究可以發現"},{"start":7353.56,"end":7355.06,"text":"有許多的平地藩人"},{"start":7355.06,"end":7358.06,"text":"因為不希望受到這樣子的普通行政區的管制"},{"start":7358.06,"end":7360.06,"text":"所以他反而又遷居"},{"start":7360.06,"end":7362.06,"text":"回到當時所謂的特別行政區"},{"start":7362.06,"end":7363.56,"text":"也就是藩人的情況之下"},{"start":7363.56,"end":7364.56,"text":"在日治時期"},{"start":7364.56,"end":7367.06,"text":"這個藩界的界定"},{"start":7367.06,"end":7368.06,"text":"以及所謂的"},{"start":7368.06,"end":7372.06,"text":"藩地藩人以及平地藩人的界定"},{"start":7372.06,"end":7373.56,"text":"事實上是流動的"},{"start":7373.56,"end":7374.56,"text":"那這樣的流動情形"},{"start":7374.56,"end":7376.06,"text":"在1945年之後"},{"start":7376.06,"end":7377.56,"text":"忽然被定格了"},{"start":7377.56,"end":7378.56,"text":"我們來看一下"},{"start":7378.56,"end":7381.56,"text":"我引用黃維林博士的一個說法"},{"start":7381.56,"end":7382.56,"text":"也就是說"},{"start":7382.56,"end":7383.56,"text":"今天所謂的平地原住民"},{"start":7383.56,"end":7385.06,"text":"跟山地原住民的分類"},{"start":7385.06,"end":7387.56,"text":"全部都是由來自於行政機關之間的"},{"start":7387.56,"end":7389.56,"text":"命令、內規或是解釋"},{"start":7389.56,"end":7392.56,"text":"從來沒有真正利用權力形態的法規方式"},{"start":7392.56,"end":7394.56,"text":"法律方式來進行規劃"},{"start":7394.56,"end":7396.56,"text":"也就是說現在的平地原住民"},{"start":7396.56,"end":7399.56,"text":"甚至是你怎麼樣被分類為山地或平地"},{"start":7399.56,"end":7401.56,"text":"對於這樣的自身的法律地位"},{"start":7401.56,"end":7404.56,"text":"原住民是自己沒有辦法去置喙的"},{"start":7404.56,"end":7406.06,"text":"而這樣也一直延伸到"},{"start":7406.06,"end":7408.06,"text":"今日的山地平地的區分"},{"start":7408.06,"end":7410.06,"text":"好,那這樣的一序"},{"start":7410.06,"end":7411.56,"text":"一直到了現在"},{"start":7411.56,"end":7413.56,"text":"我們現在就發現了一個最大的問題"},{"start":7413.56,"end":7415.56,"text":"平地山地分類的問題"},{"start":7415.56,"end":7417.56,"text":"它本身就產生了所謂的"},{"start":7417.56,"end":7419.56,"text":"同族群被切割的問題"},{"start":7419.56,"end":7421.06,"text":"同家族被切割的問題"},{"start":7421.06,"end":7424.06,"text":"還有居住事實被切割以及脫離的問題"},{"start":7424.06,"end":7426.56,"text":"我提供幾個小的數據"},{"start":7426.56,"end":7429.06,"text":"這一個是原住民委員會"},{"start":7429.06,"end":7431.06,"text":"原住民組委員會最新的"},{"start":7431.06,"end":7432.56,"text":"引用的統計"},{"start":7432.56,"end":7436.06,"text":"目前原住民全台灣共有63萬人左右"},{"start":7436.06,"end":7438.56,"text":"其中最大的族群是阿美族的23萬人"},{"start":7438.56,"end":7441.06,"text":"最小的是卡納卡拉夫的494人"},{"start":7441.06,"end":7443.06,"text":"好,但是同一個族群"},{"start":7443.06,"end":7444.56,"text":"同一個民族有沒有可能"},{"start":7444.56,"end":7446.56,"text":"同時分在山地跟平地呢?"},{"start":7446.56,"end":7449.56,"text":"有,最大的三個情形分別分布在"},{"start":7449.56,"end":7451.56,"text":"賽夏族、排灣族以及盧凱族"},{"start":7451.56,"end":7452.56,"text":"一樣是賽夏族"},{"start":7452.56,"end":7455.06,"text":"有66%左右的是平地原住民"},{"start":7455.06,"end":7457.06,"text":"33%左右的是山地原住民"},{"start":7457.06,"end":7458.56,"text":"當他們在投票的時候"},{"start":7458.56,"end":7462.06,"text":"一樣的族群就要分在兩個不同的大選區裡面去投票"},{"start":7462.06,"end":7463.56,"text":"排灣族也有類似的情形"},{"start":7463.56,"end":7466.06,"text":"排灣族全國統計大概11萬5000人"},{"start":7466.06,"end":7468.56,"text":"其中平地大概有2萬5000人"},{"start":7468.56,"end":7469.56,"text":"那是為什麼呢?"},{"start":7469.56,"end":7472.06,"text":"是因為當初在朗喬18社的斯卡羅人"},{"start":7472.06,"end":7474.56,"text":"在合併的時候直接被併入了排灣族"},{"start":7474.56,"end":7476.06,"text":"也就是說不管平地山地"},{"start":7476.06,"end":7477.56,"text":"統統併到同一個排灣族裡面去"},{"start":7477.56,"end":7480.06,"text":"選舉的時候也是被切分成兩塊"},{"start":7480.06,"end":7482.56,"text":"這樣的族群在人口統計之下有多少個"},{"start":7482.56,"end":7484.56,"text":"總共算起來總共有7個"},{"start":7484.56,"end":7487.06,"text":"也就是說我們目前的平地山地原住民"},{"start":7487.06,"end":7490.56,"text":"就已經在現實上將原住民族裡面有7個族"},{"start":7490.56,"end":7492.56,"text":"切成了兩個部分"},{"start":7492.56,"end":7496.06,"text":"這個跟現實上的政治權力的行使考量上"},{"start":7496.06,"end":7497.56,"text":"是有衝突的"},{"start":7497.56,"end":7499.56,"text":"好那我整理了幾個"},{"start":7500.76,"end":7503.26,"text":"那因為時間不夠我就往後來講"},{"start":7503.26,"end":7506.76,"text":"那幾個目前我收到的大會來的資料"},{"start":7506.76,"end":7508.26,"text":"我整理了一下它的提案"},{"start":7508.26,"end":7511.76,"text":"大致上有所謂的單一原住民選區六席制"},{"start":7511.76,"end":7515.26,"text":"就是所謂的自由地區原住民共六人的一個做法"},{"start":7515.26,"end":7517.26,"text":"另外一個是增設平埔席次"},{"start":7517.26,"end":7520.26,"text":"那它分別的考量以及它的問題點"},{"start":7520.26,"end":7523.26,"text":"我在報告中裡面有寫到"},{"start":7523.26,"end":7525.26,"text":"那不過我要提出一個可能"},{"start":7525.26,"end":7527.26,"text":"因為前面的專家學者所講過的我都引用"},{"start":7527.26,"end":7529.76,"text":"可是我講出另外一個可能的選擇"},{"start":7529.76,"end":7531.26,"text":"也就是紐西蘭的方式"},{"start":7531.26,"end":7533.26,"text":"它雖然有區分原住民選區"},{"start":7533.26,"end":7535.26,"text":"可是它可以讓你去選擇"},{"start":7535.26,"end":7536.76,"text":"你是否投原住民選區"},{"start":7536.76,"end":7538.76,"text":"或者是你是否投一般選區"},{"start":7538.76,"end":7540.26,"text":"在這樣的情況之下"},{"start":7540.26,"end":7544.26,"text":"原住民自己所謂的原住民代表的保障"},{"start":7544.26,"end":7546.26,"text":"也可以獲得保障"},{"start":7546.26,"end":7548.26,"text":"而且它甚至有可能進入一般選區"},{"start":7548.26,"end":7550.76,"text":"在這個都園的情況之下"},{"start":7550.76,"end":7552.76,"text":"能夠進行自己區域的投票"},{"start":7552.76,"end":7555.26,"text":"在代表性上可以更為完足"},{"start":7555.26,"end":7557.26,"text":"好那麼在這個修憲文字上"},{"start":7557.26,"end":7559.26,"text":"有幾個可能表達的方式"},{"start":7559.26,"end":7561.26,"text":"比方說以目前的方式"},{"start":7561.26,"end":7563.26,"text":"把三地平地都拿掉"},{"start":7563.26,"end":7564.76,"text":"留下原住民族六人"},{"start":7564.76,"end":7566.26,"text":"或者前面加上台灣"},{"start":7566.26,"end":7567.76,"text":"或者加上原住民族代表"},{"start":7567.76,"end":7569.76,"text":"各種方式我都予以尊重"},{"start":7569.76,"end":7571.76,"text":"那我再提出比較另外一個方向"},{"start":7571.76,"end":7572.76,"text":"另外一個方向是"},{"start":7572.76,"end":7575.26,"text":"是不是可以加上什麼樣"},{"start":7575.26,"end":7577.26,"text":"比方說台灣原住民至少有六個人"},{"start":7577.26,"end":7578.76,"text":"我們加上至少六個字"},{"start":7578.76,"end":7580.26,"text":"至少在憲法層次上"},{"start":7580.26,"end":7582.26,"text":"給原住民基礎的保障"},{"start":7582.26,"end":7586.26,"text":"剩下的部分我們可以移到選罷法再去處理"},{"start":7586.26,"end":7587.26,"text":"因為時間的關係"},{"start":7587.26,"end":7589.26,"text":"那我還是要不斷的呼籲說"},{"start":7589.26,"end":7592.76,"text":"我們可以跟三地跟平地這樣的區別說再見"},{"start":7592.76,"end":7595.26,"text":"我們要在原住民的身分問題上"},{"start":7595.26,"end":7597.76,"text":"向原住民身分自我認定的原則"},{"start":7597.76,"end":7599.26,"text":"再進行靠攏"},{"start":7599.26,"end":7601.76,"text":"那這個原住民的身分或代表"},{"start":7601.76,"end":7604.76,"text":"不應該由行政方式便宜決定"},{"start":7604.76,"end":7607.26,"text":"或者為了只單純為了節省行政的成本"},{"start":7607.26,"end":7609.26,"text":"而做出最後的決定"},{"start":7609.26,"end":7611.26,"text":"以上謝謝各位"},{"start":7612.06,"end":7613.06,"text":"謝謝吳律師"},{"start":7613.06,"end":7617.06,"text":"接下來我們邀請承認第二屆國民大會代表的賴崑辰"},{"start":7617.06,"end":7619.06,"text":"賴先生請"},{"start":7624.21,"end":7624.71,"text":"好"},{"start":7625.3,"end":7627.3,"text":"謝謝我們的主席"},{"start":7627.3,"end":7630.3,"text":"還有與會的各選手專家"},{"start":7630.3,"end":7633.3,"text":"大概都是好朋友了"},{"start":7633.3,"end":7636.3,"text":"今天也跟蔡委員一樣"},{"start":7636.3,"end":7641.3,"text":"回到這個國會殿堂這個感觸特別深刻"},{"start":7641.3,"end":7643.8,"text":"非常感謝"},{"start":7643.8,"end":7649.3,"text":"那這裡我首先我要先跟鄭天才委員跟你說明兩點"},{"start":7649.3,"end":7653.3,"text":"不一定是這個少數被"},{"start":7653.3,"end":7656.3,"text":"這個族群少數被這個霸凌"},{"start":7656.3,"end":7658.3,"text":"不是霸凌啦"},{"start":7658.3,"end":7660.3,"text":"多數掌控沒有啦"},{"start":7660.3,"end":7661.3,"text":"那個是國民黨會這樣"},{"start":7661.3,"end":7663.3,"text":"民進黨你看我們兩個立委"},{"start":7663.3,"end":7665.3,"text":"我們一個區域立委"},{"start":7665.3,"end":7666.3,"text":"我們兩個原住民"},{"start":7666.3,"end":7669.3,"text":"平原的成癮是卑南族的啦"},{"start":7669.3,"end":7671.3,"text":"而我們的吳立華"},{"start":7671.3,"end":7674.3,"text":"吳立華是盧凱的啦"},{"start":7674.3,"end":7677.3,"text":"也不一定說阿美跟那個"},{"start":7677.3,"end":7679.3,"text":"阿美跟這個"},{"start":7680.3,"end":7682.3,"text":"這個排灣或是布農太亞"},{"start":7682.3,"end":7684.3,"text":"這些就一定佔優勢"},{"start":7684.3,"end":7687.3,"text":"這個是看政黨個人的條件啦"},{"start":7687.3,"end":7689.3,"text":"這個吳立華來選這個"},{"start":7689.3,"end":7691.3,"text":"平原也選得上"},{"start":7691.3,"end":7692.3,"text":"那搞不好"},{"start":7692.3,"end":7694.3,"text":"只是身份認定問題"},{"start":7694.78,"end":7696.78,"text":"那第二個我也以一個"},{"start":7696.78,"end":7699.78,"text":"在1994年曾經參與過"},{"start":7699.78,"end":7701.78,"text":"整個修憲過程的"},{"start":7701.78,"end":7703.78,"text":"這個也是"},{"start":7703.78,"end":7706.78,"text":"這個也是代表民進黨團"},{"start":7706.78,"end":7709.78,"text":"在原住民議題裡面多次發言"},{"start":7709.78,"end":7712.78,"text":"幕後協調的後來人的一個身份"},{"start":7712.78,"end":7714.78,"text":"跟政委員報告"},{"start":7715.74,"end":7717.74,"text":"我們民進黨當初在國"},{"start":7717.74,"end":7719.74,"text":"國大代表是少數"},{"start":7719.74,"end":7721.74,"text":"我們當初對這個名稱"},{"start":7721.74,"end":7723.74,"text":"我們一直就是"},{"start":7723.74,"end":7725.74,"text":"當國民黨提"},{"start":7725.74,"end":7726.74,"text":"第一個是反對"},{"start":7726.74,"end":7729.74,"text":"第二個是逼不得已的時候"},{"start":7729.74,"end":7732.74,"text":"好就先丟出什麼早住民"},{"start":7732.74,"end":7733.74,"text":"先住民"},{"start":7733.74,"end":7735.74,"text":"那我們民進黨"},{"start":7735.74,"end":7737.74,"text":"這個也不是說這個從"},{"start":7737.74,"end":7739.74,"text":"黨的一個立場"},{"start":7739.74,"end":7742.74,"text":"從早期原權會運動的時候"},{"start":7742.74,"end":7744.74,"text":"這個胡德夫啦"},{"start":7744.74,"end":7747.74,"text":"那個喇叭高他們甚至更早以前"},{"start":7747.74,"end":7750.74,"text":"這個從奈鴻遠的年代"},{"start":7750.74,"end":7752.74,"text":"都有提出原住民的"},{"start":7752.74,"end":7754.74,"text":"這個建國的這樣理念"},{"start":7754.74,"end":7756.74,"text":"其實台灣原住民這個名稱"},{"start":7756.74,"end":7758.74,"text":"在那個年代就一直被"},{"start":7758.74,"end":7761.74,"text":"沿用到現在是社會普遍"},{"start":7761.74,"end":7762.74,"text":"大家可以接受的"},{"start":7762.74,"end":7765.74,"text":"所以當初民進黨的立場是"},{"start":7765.74,"end":7767.74,"text":"主張說用台灣原住民"},{"start":7767.74,"end":7769.74,"text":"或是原住民名稱"},{"start":7769.74,"end":7771.74,"text":"對於這個少數民主"},{"start":7771.74,"end":7773.74,"text":"對於用這個少數民主"},{"start":7773.74,"end":7775.74,"text":"或是用先住民早住民"},{"start":7775.74,"end":7777.74,"text":"這個是這個是"},{"start":7777.74,"end":7779.74,"text":"我們是不贊成"},{"start":7779.74,"end":7781.74,"text":"那我們當初會退席"},{"start":7781.74,"end":7783.74,"text":"是反對國民黨的"},{"start":7783.74,"end":7785.74,"text":"這樣的一個做法"},{"start":7785.74,"end":7787.74,"text":"其實當初我們也一直"},{"start":7787.74,"end":7790.74,"text":"我的角色扮演的就是跟這些"},{"start":7790.74,"end":7793.74,"text":"國民黨籍的國大代表的好同事"},{"start":7793.74,"end":7796.74,"text":"像當然高政治啦"},{"start":7796.74,"end":7797.74,"text":"林鄭二啦"},{"start":7797.74,"end":7798.74,"text":"林榮輝"},{"start":7798.74,"end":7800.74,"text":"我們私底下去跟他們溝通"},{"start":7800.74,"end":7802.74,"text":"大家也都是朝這個方向來做"},{"start":7802.74,"end":7806.74,"text":"所以希望這個林委員在這部分"},{"start":7806.74,"end":7808.74,"text":"這個政委員"},{"start":7808.74,"end":7810.74,"text":"這個在這部分的時候"},{"start":7810.74,"end":7814.74,"text":"這個我們重視過程事實了解一下"},{"start":7814.74,"end":7816.74,"text":"好那這個"},{"start":7816.74,"end":7820.74,"text":"雖然以現在今天這樣公聽會"},{"start":7820.74,"end":7823.74,"text":"在立法院內有提出"},{"start":7823.74,"end":7825.74,"text":"在一個修憲的委員會"},{"start":7825.74,"end":7828.74,"text":"那有很多零零總總的議題"},{"start":7828.74,"end":7831.74,"text":"那以現在政治局勢"},{"start":7831.74,"end":7833.74,"text":"現在政治局勢來講"},{"start":7833.74,"end":7835.74,"text":"這有可能嗎"},{"start":7835.74,"end":7837.74,"text":"不過大家溝通意見"},{"start":7837.74,"end":7839.74,"text":"因為很多事實很多面向"},{"start":7839.74,"end":7841.74,"text":"我們不管是法律"},{"start":7841.74,"end":7843.74,"text":"甚至到憲法層次"},{"start":7843.74,"end":7845.74,"text":"我們真的是必須去面對它"},{"start":7845.74,"end":7847.74,"text":"在原住民部分"},{"start":7847.74,"end":7849.74,"text":"我們現在的人數"},{"start":7849.74,"end":7851.74,"text":"因為這個原住民所恢復身份的"},{"start":7851.74,"end":7853.74,"text":"這個人數是越來越多"},{"start":7853.74,"end":7855.74,"text":"這個比例你看"},{"start":7855.74,"end":7857.74,"text":"從大概十年前三十幾萬"},{"start":7857.74,"end":7859.74,"text":"現在已經到六十三萬了"},{"start":7859.74,"end":7861.74,"text":"這個趨勢人口數增加"},{"start":7861.74,"end":7863.74,"text":"因為福利不錯"},{"start":7863.74,"end":7865.74,"text":"這個有取得身份的話"},{"start":7865.74,"end":7869.74,"text":"你的參政權你的相對"},{"start":7869.74,"end":7871.74,"text":"你包括說這個五十五歲"},{"start":7871.74,"end":7873.74,"text":"可以領老人年金"},{"start":7873.74,"end":7875.74,"text":"考試可以加分"},{"start":7875.74,"end":7877.74,"text":"這個活動補助等等"},{"start":7877.74,"end":7879.74,"text":"這個進法補償"},{"start":7879.74,"end":7883.74,"text":"這個等等這個都對很多主任來講"},{"start":7883.74,"end":7885.74,"text":"他們都有很大的一個吸引力"},{"start":7885.74,"end":7887.74,"text":"所以願意恢復身份的人"},{"start":7887.74,"end":7889.74,"text":"身份的人是越來越多"},{"start":7889.74,"end":7891.74,"text":"第二個趨勢就是都會化的情況"},{"start":7891.74,"end":7893.74,"text":"這個已經我們剛才也講過"},{"start":7893.74,"end":7897.74,"text":"像桃園現在的原住民的一個"},{"start":7897.74,"end":7899.74,"text":"人數已經超過九萬"},{"start":7899.74,"end":7901.74,"text":"已經都比台東縣還要多了"},{"start":7901.74,"end":7903.74,"text":"那第三個"},{"start":7903.74,"end":7905.74,"text":"第三個就是這一大震撼的"},{"start":7905.74,"end":7907.74,"text":"就是我們現在的這個"},{"start":7907.74,"end":7909.74,"text":"平埔族身份的認定"},{"start":7909.74,"end":7911.74,"text":"已經立法"},{"start":7911.74,"end":7915.74,"text":"已經這個政策上也通過"},{"start":7915.74,"end":7917.74,"text":"那這要通過的話"},{"start":7917.74,"end":7921.74,"text":"到底我除了取得說身份上的一個認同以外"},{"start":7921.74,"end":7923.74,"text":"我在實質上的參政權"},{"start":7923.74,"end":7927.74,"text":"我在實質上面的這個權益的保障"},{"start":7927.74,"end":7931.74,"text":"是否能跟既有的這些原住民"},{"start":7931.74,"end":7935.74,"text":"等同其官還是會做差別性的一個處理"},{"start":7935.74,"end":7937.74,"text":"這個牽涉到非常非常複雜"},{"start":7937.74,"end":7939.74,"text":"包括國家財政"},{"start":7939.74,"end":7941.74,"text":"包括這個主任認同等等"},{"start":7941.74,"end":7943.74,"text":"這個是知識體大"},{"start":7943.74,"end":7945.74,"text":"不過我個人"},{"start":7945.74,"end":7947.74,"text":"我個人認為說"},{"start":7947.74,"end":7949.74,"text":"這些問題我們都要來面對"},{"start":7949.74,"end":7953.74,"text":"那有一個剛剛我們在私底下"},{"start":7953.74,"end":7955.74,"text":"我們當然聊"},{"start":7955.74,"end":7957.74,"text":"目前來講我們用憲法"},{"start":7957.74,"end":7961.74,"text":"這個真相的這個把它區分做平原三元的這個辦法"},{"start":7961.74,"end":7967.74,"text":"這個是一個殖民權威統治的一個表徵"},{"start":7967.74,"end":7969.74,"text":"那跟現行"},{"start":7969.74,"end":7971.74,"text":"跟事實也有很大的一個差距"},{"start":7971.74,"end":7973.74,"text":"事實也有很大的一個差距"},{"start":7973.74,"end":7975.74,"text":"你為什麼分平原三元"},{"start":7975.74,"end":7977.74,"text":"南宇都海邊為時他他是三元"},{"start":7977.74,"end":7979.74,"text":"對不對"},{"start":7979.74,"end":7983.74,"text":"我跟你講胡德夫他以前他在選審議員他很可"},{"start":7983.74,"end":7985.74,"text":"他要選審議員"},{"start":7985.74,"end":7987.74,"text":"結果他的媽媽不能投給他"},{"start":7987.74,"end":7989.74,"text":"因為他們住在不同的鄉"},{"start":7989.74,"end":7991.74,"text":"他們父子在不同的鄉"},{"start":7991.74,"end":7993.74,"text":"也就是因為這種用"},{"start":7993.74,"end":7995.74,"text":"到底這個族群"},{"start":7995.74,"end":7997.74,"text":"特別是在參政權部會"},{"start":7997.74,"end":8000.74,"text":"是要用族群還是要區域來做一個"},{"start":8000.74,"end":8004.74,"text":"這個是行政政治上必須去面對解決"},{"start":8004.74,"end":8006.74,"text":"這個不是"},{"start":8006.74,"end":8007.74,"text":"只有靠認同"},{"start":8007.74,"end":8010.74,"text":"更何況我們現在有第四的趨勢就是"},{"start":8010.74,"end":8012.74,"text":"這個通婚的一個現象"},{"start":8012.74,"end":8014.74,"text":"不同族群通婚的"},{"start":8014.74,"end":8016.74,"text":"爸爸是阿美族"},{"start":8016.74,"end":8018.74,"text":"媽媽是北南族等等"},{"start":8018.74,"end":8021.74,"text":"這樣到底他身份認同他享受等等"},{"start":8021.74,"end":8024.74,"text":"這些都會造成衍生很多的困擾"},{"start":8024.74,"end":8026.74,"text":"所以我個人我是覺得說"},{"start":8026.74,"end":8028.74,"text":"再從一個分別"},{"start":8028.74,"end":8032.74,"text":"再從一個選舉的成本"},{"start":8032.74,"end":8038.74,"text":"跟經營選民的跟選民互動的密切度來講"},{"start":8038.74,"end":8042.74,"text":"現在我們現在把它分成三遠平"},{"start":8042.74,"end":8046.74,"text":"我告訴你全國最可憐的候選人就是三遠"},{"start":8046.74,"end":8048.74,"text":"像吳立華他們"},{"start":8048.74,"end":8051.74,"text":"我這個山要到哪一個山過去"},{"start":8051.74,"end":8053.74,"text":"這個可能隔壁的村"},{"start":8053.74,"end":8055.74,"text":"我的選區隔壁村"},{"start":8055.74,"end":8056.74,"text":"就那邊而已"},{"start":8058.45,"end":8061.45,"text":"那個中央山脈他的選區平遠還好"},{"start":8061.45,"end":8062.45,"text":"平遠在海邊"},{"start":8062.45,"end":8064.45,"text":"在台東花園在都會區多"},{"start":8064.45,"end":8067.45,"text":"山遠都是在中央山脈兩邊"},{"start":8067.45,"end":8070.45,"text":"我要從南橫到北橫到中橫"},{"start":8070.45,"end":8072.45,"text":"你看他耗費多少時間"},{"start":8072.45,"end":8075.45,"text":"那你耗費那麼多的交通的時間"},{"start":8075.45,"end":8078.45,"text":"跟選民的互動絕對沒有那麼密切"},{"start":8078.45,"end":8080.45,"text":"所以我個人認為說"},{"start":8080.45,"end":8082.45,"text":"因應了這幾個趨勢"},{"start":8082.45,"end":8084.45,"text":"因應了現在的一個"},{"start":8084.45,"end":8087.45,"text":"這些的這個現象"},{"start":8087.45,"end":8089.45,"text":"我個人如果有機會修憲的話"},{"start":8089.45,"end":8091.45,"text":"我覺得達成這個"},{"start":8091.45,"end":8095.45,"text":"把這個山遠平遠的這個區分"},{"start":8095.45,"end":8096.45,"text":"把它換回這樣"},{"start":8096.45,"end":8098.45,"text":"也是彩繪單一選區嘛"},{"start":8098.45,"end":8099.45,"text":"對吧"},{"start":8099.45,"end":8101.45,"text":"你就發生照人口差不多"},{"start":8101.45,"end":8102.45,"text":"你桃園那麼多人"},{"start":8102.45,"end":8103.45,"text":"你就一個選區"},{"start":8103.45,"end":8104.45,"text":"你那邊選"},{"start":8104.45,"end":8106.45,"text":"不管你是平遠三遠的"},{"start":8106.45,"end":8107.45,"text":"這個你就都選一個人"},{"start":8107.45,"end":8109.45,"text":"他就進去服務"},{"start":8109.45,"end":8112.45,"text":"至於說族群文化的認同"},{"start":8112.45,"end":8114.45,"text":"這個是文化上面的"},{"start":8114.45,"end":8116.45,"text":"這個是文化上面的"},{"start":8116.45,"end":8119.45,"text":"所以這個我最後要講說"},{"start":8119.45,"end":8121.45,"text":"這個因為平埔組要衝擊"},{"start":8121.45,"end":8122.45,"text":"現在才開始而已"},{"start":8122.45,"end":8124.45,"text":"憑良心講啦"},{"start":8124.45,"end":8125.45,"text":"你們屏東那麼多"},{"start":8125.45,"end":8128.45,"text":"你看看真的要恢復到我的祖先"},{"start":8128.45,"end":8130.45,"text":"我們去找那個戶籍藤本"},{"start":8130.45,"end":8132.45,"text":"都可以看到Halukka"},{"start":8132.45,"end":8134.45,"text":"看到寫日文的那個大寫的"},{"start":8134.45,"end":8135.45,"text":"那個就是"},{"start":8135.45,"end":8137.45,"text":"那個就是法南碼嘛"},{"start":8137.45,"end":8139.45,"text":"我們在講的那個法南碼"},{"start":8139.45,"end":8140.45,"text":"那個到我們都有"},{"start":8140.45,"end":8142.45,"text":"屏東這邊"},{"start":8142.45,"end":8144.45,"text":"我看潘孟安啦"},{"start":8144.45,"end":8145.45,"text":"蘇嘉全啦"},{"start":8145.45,"end":8146.45,"text":"曹起鴻啦"},{"start":8146.45,"end":8147.45,"text":"這大家也是"},{"start":8147.45,"end":8150.45,"text":"不是斯卡羅就是馬卡道的"},{"start":8150.45,"end":8151.45,"text":"或是希拉亞的"},{"start":8151.45,"end":8153.45,"text":"他們的一定"},{"start":8153.45,"end":8155.45,"text":"從日經時代一定找得到這些字"},{"start":8155.45,"end":8159.45,"text":"如果平埔組的這個身份認定"},{"start":8159.45,"end":8161.45,"text":"這樣一直在擴大"},{"start":8161.45,"end":8165.45,"text":"對我們整個身份認定"},{"start":8165.45,"end":8167.45,"text":"衝擊之大是無可想像"},{"start":8167.45,"end":8170.45,"text":"所以這一點真的我們也希望大家"},{"start":8170.45,"end":8173.45,"text":"這個是大家共同需要來面對的問題"},{"start":8173.45,"end":8174.45,"text":"可以大家坐一下"},{"start":8174.45,"end":8177.45,"text":"等一下我中午再去康寅跟你聊一聊啦"},{"start":8177.45,"end":8180.45,"text":"我們大家來討論一下"},{"start":8180.45,"end":8183.45,"text":"很難得有機會跟大家再分享"},{"start":8183.45,"end":8186.45,"text":"再聆聽大家高見"},{"start":8186.45,"end":8189.45,"text":"然後也把一些我們的這些的想法"},{"start":8189.45,"end":8190.45,"text":"跟大家分享一下"},{"start":8190.45,"end":8191.45,"text":"以上謝謝"},{"start":8193.1,"end":8196.1,"text":"謝謝我們賴昆臣前代表"},{"start":8196.1,"end":8198.1,"text":"也是前委員的觀察"},{"start":8198.1,"end":8199.1,"text":"的確啦"},{"start":8199.1,"end":8201.1,"text":"蘇嘉全前院長他的居住地"},{"start":8201.1,"end":8203.1,"text":"台語叫做環阿寮啦"},{"start":8204.18,"end":8206.18,"text":"曹啟宏老縣長呢"},{"start":8206.18,"end":8208.18,"text":"他的地方是林邊水利村"},{"start":8208.18,"end":8210.18,"text":"以前的舊名叫放索社啦"},{"start":8211.54,"end":8213.54,"text":"所以為什麼看起來就差不多很像"},{"start":8214.8,"end":8216.8,"text":"那我們今天來請吳立華委員"},{"start":8228.43,"end":8230.43,"text":"謝謝主席 鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":8230.43,"end":8234.43,"text":"特別把這一次的修憲委員會公聽會"},{"start":8234.43,"end":8238.43,"text":"排了一場屬於原住民議題的公聽會"},{"start":8238.43,"end":8240.43,"text":"我要再次表達感謝"},{"start":8240.43,"end":8242.43,"text":"其實我在上一屆呢"},{"start":8242.43,"end":8244.43,"text":"也有提出同樣的版本"},{"start":8244.43,"end":8246.43,"text":"但是沒有過"},{"start":8246.43,"end":8249.43,"text":"這一次捲土重來"},{"start":8249.43,"end":8251.43,"text":"我想要表達一個立場"},{"start":8251.43,"end":8253.43,"text":"為什麼要這樣捲土重來"},{"start":8253.43,"end":8257.43,"text":"因為我覺得面對不公不義不對的事情"},{"start":8257.43,"end":8259.43,"text":"我們只有一種態度"},{"start":8259.43,"end":8260.43,"text":"不屈服"},{"start":8260.43,"end":8262.43,"text":"如果我們過去的前輩"},{"start":8262.43,"end":8264.43,"text":"沒有秉持著這樣的態度"},{"start":8264.43,"end":8266.43,"text":"我們今天不可能"},{"start":8266.43,"end":8269.43,"text":"看見原住民三個字"},{"start":8269.43,"end":8271.43,"text":"所以我覺得不對的事情"},{"start":8271.43,"end":8273.43,"text":"我們就要把它割除"},{"start":8273.43,"end":8275.43,"text":"那我第二個立場就是"},{"start":8275.43,"end":8277.43,"text":"我其實是小族"},{"start":8277.43,"end":8279.43,"text":"也許是不利的"},{"start":8279.43,"end":8282.43,"text":"但是我覺得要回歸到一件事"},{"start":8282.43,"end":8284.43,"text":"人就是人"},{"start":8284.43,"end":8286.43,"text":"原住民就是原住民"},{"start":8286.43,"end":8288.43,"text":"我先是原住民"},{"start":8288.43,"end":8290.43,"text":"才是中華民國的國民"},{"start":8290.43,"end":8292.43,"text":"所以在這個地方"},{"start":8292.43,"end":8295.43,"text":"關於那些政黨在想的"},{"start":8295.43,"end":8297.43,"text":"政治人物在想的"},{"start":8297.43,"end":8300.43,"text":"其實我自己也身為一個政治人物"},{"start":8300.43,"end":8302.43,"text":"我自己也有一個所屬的政黨"},{"start":8302.43,"end":8305.43,"text":"但是我們不應該停留在這裡"},{"start":8305.43,"end":8307.43,"text":"我們應該要往前走"},{"start":8307.43,"end":8309.43,"text":"所以今天來到這邊"},{"start":8309.43,"end":8312.43,"text":"我看到我們的提綱有三個"},{"start":8312.43,"end":8313.43,"text":"我就是要來做回應"},{"start":8313.43,"end":8314.43,"text":"第一個"},{"start":8314.43,"end":8315.43,"text":"第一個"},{"start":8315.43,"end":8317.43,"text":"山地原住民平地原住民的分類"},{"start":8317.43,"end":8320.43,"text":"是否仍具有憲法上的正當性"},{"start":8320.43,"end":8321.43,"text":"第二個"},{"start":8321.43,"end":8323.43,"text":"取消了山地平地的分類"},{"start":8323.43,"end":8327.43,"text":"原住民六席在憲法中的代表原則"},{"start":8327.43,"end":8328.43,"text":"第三個"},{"start":8328.43,"end":8329.43,"text":"要回應的是"},{"start":8329.43,"end":8331.43,"text":"山地平地原住民分類"},{"start":8331.43,"end":8333.43,"text":"退出憲法之後"},{"start":8333.43,"end":8336.43,"text":"整體的法制要如何去做銜接"},{"start":8336.43,"end":8337.43,"text":"所以呢"},{"start":8337.43,"end":8339.43,"text":"回到第一個問題"},{"start":8339.43,"end":8342.43,"text":"我想剛才很多委員也有提到"},{"start":8342.43,"end":8345.43,"text":"在我們的第四條"},{"start":8345.43,"end":8346.43,"text":"有兩款"},{"start":8347.13,"end":8350.13,"text":"那這第四條整個在講的是什麼呢"},{"start":8350.13,"end":8354.13,"text":"他提到的就是2005年第七次修憲之後"},{"start":8354.13,"end":8357.13,"text":"人數把它減半"},{"start":8357.13,"end":8359.13,"text":"任期四年"},{"start":8359.13,"end":8360.13,"text":"那另外呢"},{"start":8360.13,"end":8365.13,"text":"就是有提到保障各區域的一個代表性"},{"start":8365.13,"end":8368.13,"text":"還有保障小黨的一個多元價值"},{"start":8368.13,"end":8374.13,"text":"甚至是包括女性的保障實質政治參與"},{"start":8374.13,"end":8375.13,"text":"都有被寫進去"},{"start":8375.13,"end":8377.13,"text":"那在原住民的部分呢"},{"start":8377.13,"end":8379.13,"text":"寫到的是自由地區"},{"start":8379.13,"end":8382.13,"text":"平地原住民及山地原住民各三人"},{"start":8382.13,"end":8385.13,"text":"所以我們從這個第四條"},{"start":8385.13,"end":8388.13,"text":"我們就可以確立憲法的意旨"},{"start":8388.13,"end":8390.13,"text":"它真正要保障的是"},{"start":8390.13,"end":8393.13,"text":"原住民族的實質政治參與"},{"start":8393.13,"end":8396.13,"text":"而不是分類的本身"},{"start":8396.13,"end":8398.13,"text":"我想這個第一個部分"},{"start":8398.13,"end":8399.13,"text":"我們要先了解"},{"start":8399.13,"end":8402.13,"text":"那再來我想要提到的就是"},{"start":8402.13,"end":8407.13,"text":"我們憲法增修條文第四條第一款第二項"},{"start":8407.13,"end":8410.13,"text":"為什麼會區分出自由地區"},{"start":8410.13,"end":8413.13,"text":"平地原住民及山地原住民"},{"start":8413.13,"end":8416.13,"text":"剛才很多學者前輩呢"},{"start":8416.13,"end":8417.13,"text":"也都有提到了"},{"start":8417.13,"end":8422.13,"text":"因為他的嚴格就是延續日治時代的戶口調查"},{"start":8422.13,"end":8426.13,"text":"我們可以看到他是人地區分"},{"start":8426.13,"end":8429.13,"text":"因為當時把全國的原住民"},{"start":8429.13,"end":8434.13,"text":"把他的地分為普通行政區跟翻地行政區"},{"start":8434.13,"end":8438.13,"text":"又把我們的人去做這樣的一個分類"},{"start":8438.13,"end":8440.13,"text":"所以延續到戰後"},{"start":8440.13,"end":8442.13,"text":"我們的國民政府"},{"start":8442.13,"end":8445.13,"text":"也就是繼續做這種人地區分"},{"start":8445.13,"end":8448.13,"text":"把人呢就變成山包平包"},{"start":8448.13,"end":8452.13,"text":"把地呢分山地行政區平地行政區"},{"start":8452.13,"end":8455.13,"text":"但是我們要回過頭來看一下"},{"start":8455.13,"end":8458.13,"text":"在憲法上有他的正當性"},{"start":8458.13,"end":8461.13,"text":"剛才也有很多學者前輩提到"},{"start":8461.13,"end":8466.13,"text":"同一個民族阿美族也有山原平原"},{"start":8468.01,"end":8471.01,"text":"排灣族也有分山原平原"},{"start":8471.01,"end":8474.01,"text":"泰雅族也有分山原平原"},{"start":8474.01,"end":8479.01,"text":"其實幾乎每一個族多多少少都會有這樣的一個"},{"start":8479.01,"end":8483.01,"text":"不同的屬於山原或平原"},{"start":8483.01,"end":8486.01,"text":"另外同一個部落也造成困擾"},{"start":8486.01,"end":8489.01,"text":"以台東的達魯馬克部落來講"},{"start":8489.01,"end":8492.01,"text":"同一個部落我們同樣都是盧凱族"},{"start":8492.01,"end":8495.01,"text":"但是我們有的是投山原"},{"start":8495.01,"end":8496.01,"text":"有的是投平原"},{"start":8496.01,"end":8499.01,"text":"甚至同一個家族也很困擾"},{"start":8499.01,"end":8502.01,"text":"我爸爸是阿美族媽媽是排灣族"},{"start":8502.01,"end":8504.01,"text":"但是我爸爸參選的時候"},{"start":8504.01,"end":8506.01,"text":"我可能登記的是排灣族"},{"start":8506.01,"end":8508.01,"text":"我不能投給我爸爸"},{"start":8508.01,"end":8513.01,"text":"所以這個都是一種政治服務的一個目的"},{"start":8513.01,"end":8516.01,"text":"卻沒有任何的實質意義"},{"start":8516.01,"end":8518.01,"text":"這是非常荒謬的"},{"start":8518.01,"end":8521.01,"text":"所以呢我們要來看一下"},{"start":8521.01,"end":8525.01,"text":"我們梳理一下當時修憲的一個脈絡"},{"start":8525.01,"end":8530.01,"text":"因為在1994年的第三次修憲"},{"start":8530.01,"end":8532.01,"text":"剛才有提到"},{"start":8532.01,"end":8535.01,"text":"因為在場的有我們的拉法高牧師"},{"start":8535.01,"end":8539.01,"text":"也有賴坤臣國大"},{"start":8539.01,"end":8541.01,"text":"應該你們兩位當時都在"},{"start":8541.01,"end":8544.01,"text":"蔡中寒國大也在嗎"},{"start":8545.43,"end":8548.43,"text":"所以這個部分大家應該很清楚"},{"start":8548.43,"end":8551.43,"text":"當時的原住民權益團體"},{"start":8551.43,"end":8556.43,"text":"他們要求的版本其實是原住民族"},{"start":8556.43,"end":8558.43,"text":"台灣原住民族"},{"start":8558.43,"end":8559.43,"text":"但是很遺憾"},{"start":8559.43,"end":8563.43,"text":"最後還是沿用這種殖民的移去"},{"start":8563.43,"end":8565.43,"text":"政治目的的一個分類"},{"start":8565.43,"end":8568.43,"text":"但是我想請大家看一段話"},{"start":8568.43,"end":8570.43,"text":"是公報裡面記錄的"},{"start":8570.88,"end":8571.88,"text":"是什麼呢"},{"start":8571.88,"end":8575.88,"text":"就是當時的國大曹起弘他說"},{"start":8576.38,"end":8579.38,"text":"我們堅持原住民就是原住民"},{"start":8579.38,"end":8582.38,"text":"台灣的原住民族就是台灣的原住民族"},{"start":8582.38,"end":8585.38,"text":"因而反對在江之分化成"},{"start":8585.38,"end":8589.38,"text":"所謂的山地原住民和平地原住民"},{"start":8589.38,"end":8592.38,"text":"李登輝在接見各族代表時"},{"start":8592.38,"end":8595.38,"text":"曾經當場親口答應"},{"start":8595.38,"end":8597.38,"text":"不會再做此種區分"},{"start":8597.38,"end":8600.38,"text":"但是國民黨的黨政修憲案"},{"start":8600.38,"end":8602.38,"text":"對此卻仍不放鬆"},{"start":8603.18,"end":8604.18,"text":"我要談的是"},{"start":8604.18,"end":8607.18,"text":"其實我們在1994年的修憲"},{"start":8608.26,"end":8610.26,"text":"就可以完成這件事"},{"start":8610.26,"end":8613.26,"text":"為什麼到了今天"},{"start":8613.26,"end":8615.26,"text":"32年後的今天"},{"start":8615.26,"end":8618.26,"text":"我們卻仍然說出"},{"start":8618.26,"end":8621.26,"text":"沒有辦法與時俱進的一個話"},{"start":8621.26,"end":8625.26,"text":"我覺得這個令人非常非常的遺憾"},{"start":8625.26,"end":8626.26,"text":"所以呢"},{"start":8626.26,"end":8627.26,"text":"在這個地方"},{"start":8627.26,"end":8629.26,"text":"我要第二個要去回應的就是"},{"start":8629.26,"end":8631.26,"text":"取消山地平地的分類"},{"start":8631.26,"end":8633.26,"text":"那麼原住民六席"},{"start":8633.26,"end":8635.26,"text":"在憲法中的代表原則"},{"start":8635.26,"end":8639.26,"text":"我想這個部分已經有很多的學者"},{"start":8639.26,"end":8642.26,"text":"在過去原民會也都委託研究"},{"start":8642.26,"end":8644.26,"text":"包括剛才關大偉教授"},{"start":8644.26,"end":8646.26,"text":"他說他跟林士淵教授"},{"start":8646.26,"end":8649.26,"text":"鄭素芬教授做過研究報告"},{"start":8649.26,"end":8651.26,"text":"甚至包正航教授"},{"start":8651.26,"end":8653.26,"text":"高德易教授"},{"start":8653.26,"end":8656.26,"text":"也都做過這樣的一個選區劃分"},{"start":8656.26,"end":8659.26,"text":"我想說的是2005年的修憲"},{"start":8659.26,"end":8662.26,"text":"大家都改為單一選區"},{"start":8663.22,"end":8667.22,"text":"為什麼把原住民落在這個地方"},{"start":8667.6,"end":8670.6,"text":"讓原住民的立法委員"},{"start":8670.6,"end":8673.6,"text":"承受全國選區"},{"start":8674.46,"end":8676.46,"text":"我真的不理解"},{"start":8676.46,"end":8678.46,"text":"我們的族人何其無功"},{"start":8679.43,"end":8683.43,"text":"要由這麼少的立法委員去服務全國"},{"start":8683.43,"end":8686.43,"text":"他哪一天才能夠接受到服務"},{"start":8686.43,"end":8689.43,"text":"他哪一天才能夠看到立法委員"},{"start":8689.43,"end":8691.43,"text":"到他的家幫助他"},{"start":8692.5,"end":8694.5,"text":"我真的覺得這是不對的"},{"start":8694.5,"end":8698.5,"text":"所以我覺得撇除掉這些政治的考慮"},{"start":8698.5,"end":8701.5,"text":"我覺得原住民就是原住民"},{"start":8701.5,"end":8704.5,"text":"至於怎麼樣去做選區劃分"},{"start":8704.5,"end":8707.5,"text":"這些都是技術上可以做得到的"},{"start":8707.5,"end":8710.5,"text":"而且非常的回應呼應"},{"start":8710.5,"end":8714.5,"text":"當前已經超過50%的原住民"},{"start":8714.5,"end":8716.5,"text":"移住到我們的都會地區"},{"start":8716.5,"end":8718.5,"text":"所以我覺得這個時候"},{"start":8718.5,"end":8720.5,"text":"我們應該要努力做的是"},{"start":8720.5,"end":8722.5,"text":"修憲很難幾乎不可能"},{"start":8722.5,"end":8725.5,"text":"但是我們如何口徑一致"},{"start":8725.5,"end":8729.5,"text":"讓大家知道原住民就是原住民"},{"start":8729.5,"end":8731.5,"text":"所以我覺得這個基本立場"},{"start":8731.5,"end":8734.5,"text":"我覺得是我們必須應該要守住的"},{"start":8734.5,"end":8738.5,"text":"那麼最後一個就是我們希望說"},{"start":8738.5,"end":8741.5,"text":"關於山地、平地原住民的分類"},{"start":8741.5,"end":8744.5,"text":"退出中華民國的憲法之後"},{"start":8744.5,"end":8747.5,"text":"整體的法治應如何銜接"},{"start":8747.5,"end":8748.5,"text":"剛才有提到"},{"start":8748.5,"end":8752.5,"text":"其實退出憲法是一件事"},{"start":8752.5,"end":8754.5,"text":"那麼未來其實我們還有很多的"},{"start":8754.5,"end":8756.5,"text":"涉及到的法律"},{"start":8756.5,"end":8759.5,"text":"包括原住民身分法、原民會組織法"},{"start":8759.5,"end":8762.5,"text":"地方制度法、公職人員選罷法等等"},{"start":8762.5,"end":8764.5,"text":"非常多部的法律"},{"start":8764.5,"end":8766.5,"text":"但是我覺得第一步"},{"start":8766.5,"end":8768.5,"text":"先把這樣的一個分類"},{"start":8768.5,"end":8771.5,"text":"退出民主憲政的一個國家"},{"start":8771.5,"end":8773.5,"text":"這樣的一個不當的措辭"},{"start":8773.5,"end":8775.5,"text":"第二個在法律的層次"},{"start":8775.5,"end":8779.5,"text":"我們希望能夠去設計具體的制度"},{"start":8779.5,"end":8783.5,"text":"其實學者專家要來做這件事情確實不難"},{"start":8783.5,"end":8786.5,"text":"第三個就是過渡時期的保障"},{"start":8786.5,"end":8790.5,"text":"要確保能夠讓原住民族的權力"},{"start":8790.5,"end":8792.5,"text":"能夠平順的銜接"},{"start":8792.5,"end":8794.5,"text":"那在這邊因為時間的關係"},{"start":8794.5,"end":8798.5,"text":"所以我還是要再一次的來呼籲"},{"start":8798.5,"end":8801.5,"text":"原住民就是原住民"},{"start":8801.5,"end":8803.5,"text":"如果過去幾十年"},{"start":8803.5,"end":8806.5,"text":"沒有這些原權前輩的兼職"},{"start":8806.5,"end":8810.5,"text":"我們今天也沒有辦法得到原住民三個字"},{"start":8810.5,"end":8813.5,"text":"所以呢,證明尚未成功"},{"start":8813.5,"end":8815.5,"text":"我希望大家繼續努力"},{"start":8815.5,"end":8816.5,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8817.42,"end":8819.42,"text":"好,謝謝吳立華委員"},{"start":8819.42,"end":8823.42,"text":"接下來要請阿V莫娜我們院長"},{"start":8835.43,"end":8838.43,"text":"謝謝,大家早安"},{"start":8838.43,"end":8842.43,"text":"作為這個名單上面的倒數第二位"},{"start":8842.43,"end":8846.43,"text":"我想我今天的這個說明分享"},{"start":8846.43,"end":8848.43,"text":"就換個方式了"},{"start":8848.43,"end":8852.43,"text":"因為書面資料也都有提供給我們大院"},{"start":8852.43,"end":8856.43,"text":"我想先從一個比較簡單的生活經驗"},{"start":8856.43,"end":8861.43,"text":"來說明我們今天所討論的這個議題"},{"start":8861.43,"end":8863.43,"text":"一個基本的想法"},{"start":8863.43,"end":8866.43,"text":"法律本來就應該要回應我們的生活"},{"start":8866.43,"end":8871.43,"text":"那更應該去反映我們真實的一個身份認同"},{"start":8872.59,"end":8874.59,"text":"在日常生活當中"},{"start":8874.59,"end":8876.59,"text":"我想在做有原住民身份的人"},{"start":8876.59,"end":8878.59,"text":"以我自己為例"},{"start":8878.59,"end":8880.59,"text":"我不會跟別人介紹自己說"},{"start":8880.59,"end":8885.59,"text":"大家好,我是山地原住民的賽德克族"},{"start":8885.59,"end":8888.59,"text":"那我會直接說我是賽德克族的原住民"},{"start":8888.59,"end":8892.59,"text":"因為對我來說真正核心的"},{"start":8892.59,"end":8895.59,"text":"其實是賽德克族這個身份"},{"start":8895.59,"end":8898.59,"text":"至於山地原住民是國家治理"},{"start":8898.59,"end":8901.59,"text":"戶籍制度所加在我們身上的行政分類"},{"start":8901.59,"end":8904.59,"text":"我想這前面我們很多專家學者"},{"start":8904.59,"end":8907.59,"text":"包含委員也都提醒了我們"},{"start":8907.59,"end":8910.59,"text":"那這樣的一個非常平常的自我介紹"},{"start":8910.59,"end":8913.59,"text":"就反映了一個重要的法律現象"},{"start":8913.59,"end":8918.59,"text":"那也就是說當我們在真實生活當中理解自己"},{"start":8918.59,"end":8922.59,"text":"認同自己跟向他人表達自己的生活方式"},{"start":8922.59,"end":8925.59,"text":"本來就不會用山地、平地"},{"start":8925.59,"end":8928.59,"text":"作為我們身份認同的一個核心"},{"start":8928.59,"end":8933.59,"text":"我想當然也就是這樣一個最直接最簡單的生活事實"},{"start":8933.59,"end":8937.59,"text":"也很明白的告訴我們山地、平地的分類"},{"start":8937.59,"end":8941.59,"text":"是如何的不合時宜"},{"start":8941.59,"end":8944.59,"text":"好,那這個我想第一個部分"},{"start":8944.59,"end":8947.59,"text":"想用這樣的方式來跟大家談"},{"start":8947.59,"end":8951.59,"text":"那回到一個今天憲法層次的一個討論"},{"start":8951.59,"end":8954.59,"text":"剛剛我想很多學者也都提到了"},{"start":8954.59,"end":8956.59,"text":"這個整個修憲的一個過程"},{"start":8956.59,"end":8962.59,"text":"實際上就是從一個把原住民當作是一個弱勢的群體"},{"start":8962.59,"end":8965.59,"text":"然後逐步的透過修憲立法"},{"start":8965.59,"end":8969.59,"text":"已經是一個國家要如何來承認"},{"start":8969.59,"end":8974.59,"text":"並且保障原住民族作為民族主體的這樣的一個概念"},{"start":8976.82,"end":8977.82,"text":"一個"},{"start":8978.48,"end":8980.48,"text":"另外一種討論的方式"},{"start":8980.48,"end":8983.48,"text":"我們現在所謂的三元、平元各三席"},{"start":8983.48,"end":8986.48,"text":"有沒有真正的平等"},{"start":8986.48,"end":8989.48,"text":"剛剛我們吳律師也提到了"},{"start":8989.48,"end":8992.48,"text":"幾個不同的一個民族所摻雜出來的"},{"start":8992.48,"end":8995.48,"text":"三元、平元的劃分所產生的影響"},{"start":8995.48,"end":8997.48,"text":"那我現在用另外一個數字"},{"start":8997.48,"end":9000.48,"text":"我們三元按照內政部到去年底的統計"},{"start":9000.48,"end":9004.48,"text":"大概是佔了原住民人口的53.3%"},{"start":9004.48,"end":9007.48,"text":"那平元佔了46.7%"},{"start":9007.48,"end":9008.48,"text":"那換言之"},{"start":9008.48,"end":9011.48,"text":"山地原住民每一席所對應的人口數"},{"start":9011.48,"end":9015.48,"text":"比平地原住民高出約14.1%"},{"start":9015.48,"end":9017.48,"text":"所以形式上息事相同"},{"start":9017.48,"end":9020.48,"text":"但是如果嚴格來看"},{"start":9020.48,"end":9024.48,"text":"其實並不當然等於實質上的一個政治代表的平等"},{"start":9024.48,"end":9027.48,"text":"那我們要怎麼樣來看這件事情"},{"start":9027.48,"end":9030.48,"text":"所以真正要追問的是為何人口數不同的"},{"start":9030.48,"end":9032.48,"text":"兩個法定身分的類別"},{"start":9032.48,"end":9036.48,"text":"卻永遠都是各自固定的一個三席"},{"start":9036.83,"end":9038.83,"text":"那另外一個我也想提醒大家"},{"start":9038.83,"end":9041.83,"text":"更根本的問題是原住民族的立委"},{"start":9041.83,"end":9043.83,"text":"他代表的是誰"},{"start":9043.83,"end":9045.83,"text":"那這樣的一個討論"},{"start":9045.83,"end":9048.83,"text":"其實我想可以來思考看看"},{"start":9048.83,"end":9051.83,"text":"也就是說一種是身分代表"},{"start":9051.83,"end":9053.83,"text":"那身分代表的意義"},{"start":9053.83,"end":9056.83,"text":"他討論的是保障具有原住民身分的國民"},{"start":9056.83,"end":9057.83,"text":"不會因為人口少數"},{"start":9057.83,"end":9061.83,"text":"在多數決的政治過程當中失去適當的代表"},{"start":9061.83,"end":9064.83,"text":"所以如果是採這樣的一種觀點"},{"start":9064.83,"end":9067.83,"text":"我們確保六席原則上就可以達到保障的目的"},{"start":9067.83,"end":9071.83,"text":"當然也就沒有需要再依民族別配置來席次"},{"start":9071.83,"end":9073.83,"text":"那另外一種想法是"},{"start":9073.83,"end":9076.83,"text":"原住民族的代表如果是一個民族的代表的話"},{"start":9076.83,"end":9078.83,"text":"那麼這個時候"},{"start":9078.83,"end":9082.83,"text":"其實他就不單純只是一個個人的集合強調身分"},{"start":9082.83,"end":9084.83,"text":"而是我們應該要去看的是"},{"start":9084.83,"end":9088.83,"text":"具有共同歷史文化語言傳統領域集體認同的民族"},{"start":9088.83,"end":9091.83,"text":"所以我們關切的其實不是國會當中"},{"start":9091.83,"end":9093.83,"text":"有沒有原住民的代表"},{"start":9093.83,"end":9095.83,"text":"而是不同的原住民族"},{"start":9095.83,"end":9098.83,"text":"我們的意見我們的政治參與"},{"start":9098.83,"end":9101.83,"text":"能不能夠被適當的能夠呈現出來"},{"start":9101.83,"end":9104.83,"text":"那現在這個制度是不像"},{"start":9104.83,"end":9107.83,"text":"他既不是身分代表也不是民族代表"},{"start":9109.09,"end":9112.09,"text":"所以當然也就凸顯了這個制度本身"},{"start":9112.09,"end":9114.09,"text":"他應該要被檢討"},{"start":9115.16,"end":9118.16,"text":"那在今天的討論提綱裡面也在關切"},{"start":9118.16,"end":9121.16,"text":"法制的銜接上會不會有問題"},{"start":9121.64,"end":9124.64,"text":"那我大概花了一點點時間"},{"start":9124.64,"end":9126.64,"text":"我們全國法規資料庫"},{"start":9126.64,"end":9129.64,"text":"如果我們key in 3D原住民這五個字"},{"start":9129.64,"end":9132.64,"text":"跑出76筆的法規資料"},{"start":9132.64,"end":9135.64,"text":"那如果用平地原住民這幾個字"},{"start":9135.64,"end":9137.64,"text":"會跑出15筆資料"},{"start":9137.64,"end":9141.64,"text":"那其實這個也跟我們剛剛吳委員所分享的大同小異"},{"start":9141.64,"end":9146.64,"text":"也就代表了我們移除了3D跟平地的這樣的一種身分的標籤"},{"start":9146.64,"end":9150.64,"text":"其實不會有太大的一個法制銜接的影響"},{"start":9150.64,"end":9154.64,"text":"因為實體權力早就已經在原住民族基本法之後"},{"start":9154.64,"end":9158.64,"text":"去3D去平地化的這樣一種概念"},{"start":9158.64,"end":9162.64,"text":"那後續當然我們還是必須有必要性的去"},{"start":9162.64,"end":9167.64,"text":"針對我們現有的制度去找到一些調整的一種方式"},{"start":9167.64,"end":9172.64,"text":"但是那種方式其實是一個採取的是一種規範功能的一種檢視"},{"start":9174.43,"end":9178.43,"text":"那到底我們應該用什麼樣的一種修憲方式文字來呈現"},{"start":9178.43,"end":9181.43,"text":"我們今天看到了幾個不同的一個版本"},{"start":9181.43,"end":9184.43,"text":"我想大家再怎麼樣因為文字有限"},{"start":9184.43,"end":9187.43,"text":"其實大家都環繞在這三種不同的模式"},{"start":9187.43,"end":9189.43,"text":"自由地區原住民六人"},{"start":9189.43,"end":9191.43,"text":"台灣原住民族六人"},{"start":9191.43,"end":9194.43,"text":"原住民或原住民族立法委員六人"},{"start":9194.43,"end":9198.43,"text":"那在這裡面其實以務實性來看"},{"start":9198.43,"end":9202.43,"text":"第三種應該是採取一種簡明立法的保障"},{"start":9202.43,"end":9205.43,"text":"加上後續法律形成的公間"},{"start":9205.43,"end":9210.43,"text":"那這個也許可能在操作上相對來講有可行性"},{"start":9210.43,"end":9213.43,"text":"那我個人當然是偏好第二類"},{"start":9213.43,"end":9216.43,"text":"因為它能夠彰顯出我們台灣"},{"start":9216.43,"end":9218.43,"text":"不只是作為一個原住民族的主體性"},{"start":9218.43,"end":9223.43,"text":"更是一個國家對外所展現的這樣一種主體的象徵"},{"start":9223.43,"end":9226.43,"text":"那但是這裡我想也是要仰賴"},{"start":9226.43,"end":9228.43,"text":"不只是我們立法委員"},{"start":9228.43,"end":9231.43,"text":"更是全體國民的一個智慧"},{"start":9232.26,"end":9235.26,"text":"那我的結論其實很簡單"},{"start":9235.26,"end":9237.26,"text":"就像我剛剛所說的"},{"start":9237.26,"end":9240.26,"text":"其實最直接的生活事實已經告訴我們"},{"start":9240.26,"end":9243.26,"text":"三地平地的不合時宜"},{"start":9243.26,"end":9248.26,"text":"那我們要討論的其實不單純只是一個法律文字的刪除"},{"start":9248.26,"end":9254.26,"text":"而是應該讓我們的憲法能夠回應到原住民族真實的身分認同"},{"start":9254.26,"end":9256.26,"text":"跟民族的主體性"},{"start":9256.26,"end":9259.26,"text":"那讓歷史的分類回到歷史"},{"start":9259.26,"end":9262.26,"text":"讓政治的保障留在憲法"},{"start":9262.26,"end":9268.26,"text":"讓原住民族的民族主體成為未來制度改革的一個方向"},{"start":9269.27,"end":9275.27,"text":"那也讓法律能夠重新回到我們真實的生活跟民主的認同之中"},{"start":9275.27,"end":9279.27,"text":"那也非常謝謝今天立法院給我這個機會"},{"start":9279.27,"end":9281.27,"text":"來跟大家一起學習跟分享"},{"start":9281.27,"end":9283.27,"text":"以上是我的意見謝謝"},{"start":9285.2,"end":9288.2,"text":"謝謝RV教授你看得到很多的掌聲"},{"start":9288.2,"end":9291.2,"text":"最後我們邀請到施政鋒前院長"},{"start":9309.21,"end":9311.21,"text":"主席各位先進"},{"start":9311.21,"end":9314.21,"text":"謝謝邀請我來"},{"start":9315.45,"end":9318.45,"text":"見證老朋友"},{"start":9318.96,"end":9320.96,"text":"還是原住民比較熱情"},{"start":9321.21,"end":9326.21,"text":"我們等一下開完會政天才委員還會找我們去討論討論"},{"start":9326.21,"end":9328.21,"text":"喝喝飲料"},{"start":9328.21,"end":9331.21,"text":"也許會有韓院長的高粱說不定"},{"start":9331.21,"end":9335.21,"text":"我先講一下說今天我看的就是相關的就是兩個案子"},{"start":9335.21,"end":9336.21,"text":"一個是吳委員的"},{"start":9336.21,"end":9339.21,"text":"然後一個就是我們政天才委員的"},{"start":9339.21,"end":9342.21,"text":"吳立法委員的他基本上就是說"},{"start":9342.21,"end":9346.21,"text":"我們把三元平原這個就是把它不要分了"},{"start":9346.21,"end":9348.21,"text":"然後呢政天才委員就是說"},{"start":9348.21,"end":9352.21,"text":"那不要啦我們就是平原三元跟平埔組各333"},{"start":9352.21,"end":9354.21,"text":"我回想一下說我們過去"},{"start":9355.51,"end":9359.51,"text":"差不多80年代末期到現在的這個原住民運動大概是三大運動"},{"start":9359.51,"end":9363.51,"text":"一個是正民一個是黃河土地一個是自治"},{"start":9363.51,"end":9364.51,"text":"那正民有了"},{"start":9364.51,"end":9368.51,"text":"那自治是好像還在公法人還在喬"},{"start":9368.51,"end":9372.51,"text":"然後呢土地考上不盡可能還是有退啦"},{"start":9372.51,"end":9376.51,"text":"但還有兩個相關的就是吳委員提到的三元平原的這個"},{"start":9376.51,"end":9381.51,"text":"這樣其實是其實那是為了行政方便的那個權宜之計"},{"start":9381.51,"end":9383.51,"text":"好那是情何以堪的"},{"start":9383.51,"end":9387.51,"text":"那另外一個就是我們看到就是說除了這個以外呢"},{"start":9387.51,"end":9392.51,"text":"相對的就是我們講就是這個所謂的族群代表"},{"start":9392.51,"end":9395.51,"text":"但族群代表現在是七族啦越來越多怎麼辦"},{"start":9395.51,"end":9398.51,"text":"本來國會減半的時候就已經不夠了對不對"},{"start":9398.51,"end":9400.51,"text":"我還記得以前是市席市席嘛"},{"start":9400.51,"end":9403.51,"text":"那是因為說這個費省動省"},{"start":9403.51,"end":9406.51,"text":"所以我們國會增加或試試"},{"start":9406.51,"end":9408.51,"text":"那國會減半以後變成三商的時候"},{"start":9408.51,"end":9413.51,"text":"我覺得游錫堃那時候行政院院長還講說太多的比例等等"},{"start":9413.51,"end":9414.51,"text":"那三三嘛"},{"start":9414.51,"end":9418.51,"text":"那如果大家還記剛才吳委員在問說"},{"start":9418.51,"end":9420.51,"text":"當時的立委在說一個就在這裡啊"},{"start":9420.51,"end":9422.51,"text":"蔡正華委員啊"},{"start":9422.51,"end":9425.51,"text":"一個是這個我們的這個"},{"start":9425.51,"end":9430.51,"text":"我記得當時主委是陳建年副主委是我們的普通城"},{"start":9430.51,"end":9433.51,"text":"我記得在討論的時候我忘了在哪裡討論"},{"start":9433.51,"end":9437.51,"text":"有說因為我們這個區域是變成單一選區"},{"start":9437.51,"end":9438.51,"text":"單一選區然後比例代表"},{"start":9438.51,"end":9441.51,"text":"然後接下來原住民的部分變成複數選區嘛"},{"start":9441.51,"end":9444.51,"text":"我記得當時原住民的精英的意見就是說"},{"start":9444.51,"end":9446.51,"text":"這個是自視體大啦"},{"start":9446.51,"end":9447.51,"text":"OK"},{"start":9447.51,"end":9449.51,"text":"那如果改了要怎麼劃分等等"},{"start":9449.51,"end":9450.51,"text":"好OK"},{"start":9450.51,"end":9452.51,"text":"所以暫時我們就有複數選區啦"},{"start":9452.51,"end":9457.51,"text":"其實我那個時候還有一個問題就是相關的這幾十年"},{"start":9457.51,"end":9460.51,"text":"包括從賴總統在當台北市長"},{"start":9460.51,"end":9462.51,"text":"這個對台南市長的時候"},{"start":9462.51,"end":9464.51,"text":"那個時候就是"},{"start":9464.51,"end":9466.51,"text":"或者是他這個換底啊"},{"start":9466.51,"end":9470.51,"text":"當台南縣長甚至是這個評普組這部分如何處理"},{"start":9470.51,"end":9472.51,"text":"其實我一直跟民進黨講說"},{"start":9472.51,"end":9474.51,"text":"你們不分區那麼多"},{"start":9474.51,"end":9476.51,"text":"評普組就擺一個就好了嘛"},{"start":9476.51,"end":9478.51,"text":"不分區第一名啊對不對"},{"start":9478.51,"end":9479.51,"text":"好OK"},{"start":9479.51,"end":9480.51,"text":"拖那麼久啊"},{"start":9480.51,"end":9482.51,"text":"那就是你弄不到"},{"start":9482.51,"end":9484.51,"text":"所以呢我們現在吳委員提出來"},{"start":9484.51,"end":9486.51,"text":"吳立華提出來的"},{"start":9486.51,"end":9490.51,"text":"其實我必須要講你今天找哪一個學者"},{"start":9490.51,"end":9493.51,"text":"你就不用找學者去找AI算一下就好了啦"},{"start":9493.51,"end":9496.51,"text":"好就是吳委員這樣子一去的話"},{"start":9496.51,"end":9497.51,"text":"登記的時候就登記"},{"start":9497.51,"end":9499.51,"text":"我跟你講那個身份的部分"},{"start":9499.51,"end":9503.51,"text":"我外婆是這個屏東滿洲鄉的啦"},{"start":9503.51,"end":9505.51,"text":"她的名字叫做賴番婆啦"},{"start":9505.51,"end":9506.51,"text":"番婆啦"},{"start":9506.51,"end":9508.51,"text":"你跟我說她是哪一族的"},{"start":9508.51,"end":9512.51,"text":"我拜託我舅舅拿那個戶口名不如日本時代的來啦"},{"start":9512.51,"end":9514.51,"text":"她就在那個茂博"},{"start":9514.51,"end":9516.51,"text":"大家知道茂博嗎"},{"start":9518.41,"end":9523.41,"text":"就是那個什麼茂博的隔壁啦"},{"start":9523.41,"end":9526.41,"text":"然後我看了一下她是至少混兩族"},{"start":9526.41,"end":9527.41,"text":"不講閩南跟客家啦"},{"start":9527.41,"end":9528.41,"text":"她是混兩族"},{"start":9528.41,"end":9529.41,"text":"恆春阿美"},{"start":9529.41,"end":9531.41,"text":"阿美族在恆春有大家知道吧"},{"start":9531.41,"end":9532.41,"text":"那條溪"},{"start":9532.41,"end":9534.41,"text":"客家人就這樣上去的"},{"start":9534.41,"end":9539.41,"text":"然後接著另外一邊就是屏東跟高雄的滿洲有沒有"},{"start":9540.08,"end":9542.08,"text":"這個這個"},{"start":9542.08,"end":9545.08,"text":"就是那兩族兩個部落"},{"start":9545.08,"end":9547.08,"text":"王什麼的王什麼的"},{"start":9547.08,"end":9549.08,"text":"我已經忘了那個怎麼寫了啦"},{"start":9549.08,"end":9552.08,"text":"我可不可以去登記平埔族啊"},{"start":9553.49,"end":9555.49,"text":"哇靠我也去可以當立委了啊"},{"start":9555.49,"end":9556.49,"text":"對不對"},{"start":9556.49,"end":9557.49,"text":"我意思說"},{"start":9558.35,"end":9560.35,"text":"未來六席"},{"start":9560.35,"end":9563.35,"text":"搞不好四席都是平埔族剩下"},{"start":9563.35,"end":9566.35,"text":"原住民剩下三元平元各兩席"},{"start":9566.35,"end":9567.35,"text":"我不騙你的"},{"start":9567.35,"end":9571.35,"text":"所以我們政天才委員很會做人的啊"},{"start":9571.35,"end":9572.35,"text":"啊不要來吵啦"},{"start":9572.35,"end":9575.35,"text":"就三元平元各三啦"},{"start":9575.35,"end":9578.35,"text":"平埔族就給你三全部三席都送給你們"},{"start":9578.35,"end":9579.35,"text":"民進黨好不好"},{"start":9579.35,"end":9580.35,"text":"就是這樣子啦"},{"start":9580.35,"end":9581.35,"text":"好不好"},{"start":9581.35,"end":9582.35,"text":"會做人跟不會做"},{"start":9582.35,"end":9584.35,"text":"我不是說你不要做人啦"},{"start":9584.35,"end":9585.35,"text":"政天才委員知道"},{"start":9585.35,"end":9586.35,"text":"反正修憲就不會過嘛"},{"start":9586.35,"end":9589.35,"text":"所以我覺得平埔族現在面對的問題是什麼呢"},{"start":9589.35,"end":9592.35,"text":"因為我最近在寫南非"},{"start":9592.35,"end":9594.35,"text":"南非有班都黑人嘛"},{"start":9594.35,"end":9595.35,"text":"對不對"},{"start":9595.35,"end":9598.35,"text":"還有一些所謂的所謂的有色人種"},{"start":9598.35,"end":9599.35,"text":"其實算是混血"},{"start":9599.35,"end":9602.35,"text":"其實算是那個Hotant跟Bushman啦"},{"start":9602.35,"end":9604.35,"text":"OK就是就是混血的啦"},{"start":9604.35,"end":9606.35,"text":"其實就是平埔族啦"},{"start":9606.35,"end":9608.35,"text":"好或者就是我們加拿大的Matea"},{"start":9608.35,"end":9609.35,"text":"好OK"},{"start":9609.35,"end":9611.35,"text":"那那其實是無奈啦"},{"start":9611.35,"end":9612.35,"text":"因為他跟白人接觸嘛"},{"start":9612.35,"end":9614.35,"text":"好那以前我們清朝的時候"},{"start":9614.35,"end":9616.35,"text":"那以前我們清朝的時候就是這樣子啊"},{"start":9616.35,"end":9620.35,"text":"我們平埔族就是先第一個就是當愛勇啊"},{"start":9620.35,"end":9621.35,"text":"土地都沒有了啊"},{"start":9621.35,"end":9624.35,"text":"只好去當愛勇啊"},{"start":9624.35,"end":9625.35,"text":"OK"},{"start":9625.35,"end":9626.35,"text":"然後呢"},{"start":9626.35,"end":9628.35,"text":"我一個朋友"},{"start":9628.35,"end":9631.35,"text":"他應該是我們花蓮那邊的平埔族啦"},{"start":9631.35,"end":9634.35,"text":"他說他們的祖上一個男生啦"},{"start":9634.35,"end":9637.35,"text":"他說有一天他們就是"},{"start":9637.35,"end":9639.35,"text":"就出去當愛勇嘛"},{"start":9639.35,"end":9642.35,"text":"然後還沒有到十二點就回來了啦"},{"start":9642.35,"end":9644.35,"text":"然後呢他的祖媽就問他說"},{"start":9644.35,"end":9645.35,"text":"你為什麼要那邊等啊"},{"start":9645.35,"end":9647.35,"text":"還沒到十二點你就回來了啦"},{"start":9647.35,"end":9648.35,"text":"這次就回來了啦"},{"start":9648.35,"end":9650.35,"text":"我們平埔族是某些社會嘛"},{"start":9650.35,"end":9653.35,"text":"到時候把你保護到外面啊"},{"start":9653.35,"end":9655.35,"text":"你知道他祖公怎麼講你知道嗎"},{"start":9655.35,"end":9656.35,"text":"就沒辦法啊"},{"start":9656.35,"end":9658.35,"text":"為什麼出差啦"},{"start":9658.35,"end":9660.35,"text":"哇你不覺得很扯嗎"},{"start":9660.35,"end":9661.35,"text":"一個假的漢人"},{"start":9661.35,"end":9664.35,"text":"然後在嘲笑真的這個原住民"},{"start":9664.35,"end":9665.35,"text":"你知道"},{"start":9665.35,"end":9666.35,"text":"你不知道覺得是一個"},{"start":9666.35,"end":9668.35,"text":"但是是一個無奈的這樣的"},{"start":9668.35,"end":9670.35,"text":"就是平埔族跟我們的"},{"start":9670.35,"end":9672.35,"text":"現在有的原住民"},{"start":9672.35,"end":9673.35,"text":"那現在目前為止"},{"start":9673.35,"end":9675.35,"text":"我們其實就有三個問題嘛"},{"start":9675.35,"end":9676.35,"text":"我必須要講到"},{"start":9676.35,"end":9677.35,"text":"我會提出一個啦"},{"start":9677.35,"end":9679.35,"text":"因為我們過去都是用弱勢族群"},{"start":9679.35,"end":9682.35,"text":"把原住民當作邊緣地區跟部落"},{"start":9682.35,"end":9684.35,"text":"我最早最早的時候"},{"start":9684.35,"end":9686.35,"text":"我們還沒有原住民身分的時候"},{"start":9686.35,"end":9689.35,"text":"我最早被邀請去講原住民議題的時候"},{"start":9689.35,"end":9690.35,"text":"是在講"},{"start":9690.8,"end":9693.8,"text":"邊緣地區跟山地的部落的地方"},{"start":9693.8,"end":9695.8,"text":"是弱勢的照護"},{"start":9695.8,"end":9698.8,"text":"所以呢有時候我們如果在講說"},{"start":9698.8,"end":9700.8,"text":"平埔族已經設金條件已經必須"},{"start":9700.8,"end":9701.8,"text":"要小心"},{"start":9701.8,"end":9703.8,"text":"我們也會被他講說"},{"start":9703.8,"end":9704.8,"text":"我們原住民其實很多"},{"start":9704.8,"end":9706.8,"text":"社會經濟地位也不錯"},{"start":9706.8,"end":9707.8,"text":"要小心"},{"start":9707.8,"end":9708.8,"text":"第二個就是說"},{"start":9708.8,"end":9710.8,"text":"他已經離開部落等等啊"},{"start":9710.8,"end":9712.8,"text":"那我們現在的都包更多啊"},{"start":9712.8,"end":9715.8,"text":"都包可能是三分之一到一半以上啊"},{"start":9715.8,"end":9717.8,"text":"OK那怎麼辦"},{"start":9717.8,"end":9718.8,"text":"我覺得這兩個"},{"start":9718.8,"end":9719.8,"text":"我一直要強調"},{"start":9719.8,"end":9721.8,"text":"我們叫做原住民族是"},{"start":9721.8,"end":9723.8,"text":"漢人墾之者還沒有來"},{"start":9723.8,"end":9725.8,"text":"我們就在這邊了"},{"start":9725.8,"end":9727.8,"text":"跟毛利人"},{"start":9727.8,"end":9729.8,"text":"跟澳洲的原住民族"},{"start":9729.8,"end":9731.8,"text":"跟加拿大的第一民族"},{"start":9731.8,"end":9735.8,"text":"跟美國的所謂的Native American"},{"start":9735.8,"end":9737.8,"text":"是一樣地位的"},{"start":9737.8,"end":9739.8,"text":"跟我們的社會經濟調"},{"start":9739.8,"end":9741.8,"text":"我們搞不好我們也可以當總統啊"},{"start":9741.8,"end":9742.8,"text":"所以我們也可以拿博士"},{"start":9742.8,"end":9744.8,"text":"不是嗎東京大學的博士"},{"start":9744.8,"end":9745.8,"text":"對不對"},{"start":9745.8,"end":9746.8,"text":"所以有什麼"},{"start":9746.8,"end":9747.8,"text":"政大的博士"},{"start":9747.8,"end":9749.8,"text":"夏威夷的博士都有啊"},{"start":9749.8,"end":9750.8,"text":"華盛頓的博士啊"},{"start":9750.8,"end":9751.8,"text":"所以我是覺得"},{"start":9751.8,"end":9752.8,"text":"都不要講這個部分"},{"start":9752.8,"end":9755.8,"text":"我覺得其實就是人數的部分啦"},{"start":9755.8,"end":9757.8,"text":"你去設置你去限制他"},{"start":9757.8,"end":9759.8,"text":"我跟你講我都可能去登記的啊"},{"start":9759.8,"end":9760.8,"text":"對不對"},{"start":9760.8,"end":9763.8,"text":"那我們這裡面彼此之間要"},{"start":9763.8,"end":9766.8,"text":"但是我覺得這個還是要擔心的"},{"start":9766.8,"end":9768.8,"text":"就是說如果剛才他講說"},{"start":9768.8,"end":9769.8,"text":"我舉個例子"},{"start":9769.8,"end":9771.8,"text":"加拿大的那個這個"},{"start":9771.8,"end":9772.8,"text":"所謂的Nui的時候"},{"start":9772.8,"end":9773.8,"text":"他們開始成立自治區"},{"start":9773.8,"end":9775.8,"text":"一開始沒有人才嘛"},{"start":9775.8,"end":9778.8,"text":"所以用了其他的First Nation他們的人"},{"start":9778.8,"end":9779.8,"text":"去當公務人員"},{"start":9779.8,"end":9782.8,"text":"但是他有真的一奴一的立場嗎"},{"start":9783.18,"end":9784.18,"text":"我不是在分化好嗎"},{"start":9784.18,"end":9786.18,"text":"我是說要小心"},{"start":9786.18,"end":9788.18,"text":"因為我們目前都已經有看過"},{"start":9788.18,"end":9793.18,"text":"我們原住民的媳婦或者是我們的女婿"},{"start":9793.93,"end":9796.93,"text":"然後呢或者是平原到山原去"},{"start":9796.93,"end":9799.93,"text":"然後那個土地如何去怎麼樣"},{"start":9799.93,"end":9800.93,"text":"無軌搬運的這個問題"},{"start":9800.93,"end":9802.93,"text":"我們在擔心以後"},{"start":9802.93,"end":9806.93,"text":"平埔族會不會有這樣的情況再出現"},{"start":9806.93,"end":9807.93,"text":"OK"},{"start":9807.93,"end":9810.93,"text":"那我簡單講一下就是說我的建議啦"},{"start":9810.93,"end":9813.93,"text":"我說因為這個我相信不可能過嘛"},{"start":9813.93,"end":9814.93,"text":"OK"},{"start":9814.93,"end":9817.93,"text":"那因為五位人提出來的"},{"start":9818.36,"end":9821.36,"text":"跟那邊的帥氣就要辦到了"},{"start":9821.36,"end":9823.36,"text":"這處分了辦成嘛"},{"start":9823.36,"end":9825.36,"text":"我覺得今天我們今天都寫了一些東西啦"},{"start":9825.36,"end":9827.36,"text":"我建議蔡委員"},{"start":9827.36,"end":9830.36,"text":"你有機會辦一個學術研討會啦"},{"start":9830.36,"end":9834.36,"text":"把平原山原跟平埔的各十兩個學者"},{"start":9834.36,"end":9837.36,"text":"然後從政治哲學代表性等等這些東西"},{"start":9837.36,"end":9840.36,"text":"然後把戲集AI的Summulation弄出來"},{"start":9840.36,"end":9841.36,"text":"我跟你講Summulation"},{"start":9841.36,"end":9842.36,"text":"半個小時就跑出來了"},{"start":9842.36,"end":9844.36,"text":"我都知道是誰可以當選了啦"},{"start":9844.36,"end":9845.36,"text":"好不好"},{"start":9845.36,"end":9847.36,"text":"然後我們好好地對話一下啦"},{"start":9847.36,"end":9849.36,"text":"能不能相處就能相處啦"},{"start":9849.36,"end":9851.36,"text":"你要學乳交融"},{"start":9851.36,"end":9852.36,"text":"學乳交融很難"},{"start":9852.36,"end":9855.36,"text":"不能相處我跟你講要做好鄰居"},{"start":9855.36,"end":9857.36,"text":"要把淋巴好好的做了"},{"start":9857.36,"end":9858.36,"text":"就是這樣子啦"},{"start":9858.36,"end":9860.36,"text":"等一下我們好好喝飲料啦謝謝"},{"start":9862.39,"end":9865.39,"text":"謝謝我們最後一位我們施政方院長的發言"},{"start":9865.39,"end":9867.39,"text":"好像也回應了剛剛好像是"},{"start":9867.39,"end":9870.39,"text":"我們陳主任提到的修憲門檻"},{"start":9870.39,"end":9871.39,"text":"如果不先降低"},{"start":9871.39,"end":9873.39,"text":"今天我們所談的各種的主張"},{"start":9873.39,"end":9875.39,"text":"恐怕都沒有實現一天"},{"start":9875.39,"end":9876.39,"text":"那接下來呢"},{"start":9876.39,"end":9878.39,"text":"所有的學者專家代表及登記之委員"},{"start":9878.39,"end":9879.39,"text":"均已發言完畢"},{"start":9879.39,"end":9881.39,"text":"接下來進行第二輪的發言"},{"start":9881.39,"end":9882.39,"text":"才自由發言每人三分鐘"},{"start":9882.39,"end":9884.39,"text":"請問還沒有學者專家"},{"start":9884.39,"end":9885.39,"text":"可以為我們提供寶貴的意見"},{"start":9885.39,"end":9887.39,"text":"來我們請牧師請"},{"start":9896.49,"end":9897.49,"text":"好"},{"start":9897.49,"end":9899.49,"text":"來報告第二次發言"},{"start":9899.49,"end":9904.49,"text":"剛剛我們在討論講到憲法這個"},{"start":9904.49,"end":9905.49,"text":"要修憲是不容易"},{"start":9905.49,"end":9909.49,"text":"但是武力華委員提出來的"},{"start":9909.49,"end":9911.49,"text":"這個是長程的目標"},{"start":9911.49,"end":9913.49,"text":"就是我們找這個修憲部分"},{"start":9913.49,"end":9916.49,"text":"再來因為剛好我說過"},{"start":9916.49,"end":9919.49,"text":"URM訓練怎麼樣去組織"},{"start":9919.49,"end":9921.49,"text":"然後完成任務"},{"start":9921.64,"end":9924.64,"text":"我現在講的是長期目標是修憲"},{"start":9924.64,"end":9927.64,"text":"那個忠誠目標"},{"start":9927.64,"end":9929.64,"text":"我是覺得我們是不是"},{"start":9929.64,"end":9931.64,"text":"可以修改憲法法"},{"start":9932.22,"end":9934.22,"text":"憲法法的部分"},{"start":9934.23,"end":9938.23,"text":"我們原住民選區挑拖政黨"},{"start":9939.76,"end":9940.76,"text":"挑拖政黨"},{"start":9941.28,"end":9943.28,"text":"也就是不要有任何政黨"},{"start":9943.79,"end":9945.79,"text":"當單就是原住民選區六個人"},{"start":9945.79,"end":9948.79,"text":"或是我們可以討論這個到幾席"},{"start":9948.79,"end":9951.79,"text":"然後這個原住民選區當中"},{"start":9951.79,"end":9953.79,"text":"有長生部分區"},{"start":9953.79,"end":9957.79,"text":"這個部分區是有這些小組的"},{"start":9957.79,"end":9959.79,"text":"來輪流當任"},{"start":9960.33,"end":9961.33,"text":"這個是我的想法"},{"start":9962.73,"end":9965.73,"text":"那短程的部分可能要收集資料"},{"start":9965.73,"end":9966.73,"text":"還有協調"},{"start":9966.73,"end":9969.73,"text":"包括這個評估組加進來"},{"start":9969.73,"end":9971.73,"text":"也納入在這裡面"},{"start":9971.73,"end":9973.73,"text":"所以我是覺得我們不要想太多"},{"start":9973.73,"end":9975.73,"text":"說他們那麼多人"},{"start":9975.94,"end":9977.94,"text":"現在登記的還不到兩萬個人"},{"start":9978.47,"end":9980.47,"text":"我是覺得這些人納進來"},{"start":9980.47,"end":9983.47,"text":"也列入在六席的當中"},{"start":9983.47,"end":9988.47,"text":"所以我是覺得忠誠應該要修憲法法"},{"start":9988.47,"end":9989.47,"text":"這個部分"},{"start":9989.47,"end":9994.47,"text":"把原住民選區當一選區"},{"start":9994.47,"end":9995.47,"text":"挑拖政黨"},{"start":9995.47,"end":9997.47,"text":"不屬於任何的政黨"},{"start":9997.47,"end":9999.47,"text":"但是產生不分區"},{"start":9999.47,"end":10003.47,"text":"不分區由我們小組來輪流擔任"},{"start":10003.47,"end":10004.47,"text":"這個部分"},{"start":10004.47,"end":10006.47,"text":"這個第一期的部分"},{"start":10006.47,"end":10008.47,"text":"就是要去做協調來去處理"},{"start":10008.47,"end":10009.47,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10011.43,"end":10013.43,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":10013.43,"end":10017.43,"text":"請問還有沒有第二輪發言要表達的"},{"start":10020.2,"end":10021.2,"text":"有嗎"},{"start":10021.89,"end":10022.89,"text":"沒有 好"},{"start":10023.16,"end":10026.16,"text":"我想今天我們在場學者"},{"start":10026.5,"end":10029.5,"text":"專家的發言以及我們各位委員的發言"},{"start":10029.5,"end":10033.5,"text":"其實在這裡本席也藉此機會表達一下"},{"start":10033.5,"end":10036.5,"text":"今天聽了各位學者的意見之後"},{"start":10036.5,"end":10038.5,"text":"未來我們在修憲之外"},{"start":10038.5,"end":10039.5,"text":"有沒有其他合作空間"},{"start":10039.5,"end":10040.5,"text":"我這邊提醒一下"},{"start":10040.5,"end":10043.5,"text":"我過去參與過四次的修憲"},{"start":10043.5,"end":10045.5,"text":"跟我們賴昆臣前國大一樣"},{"start":10045.5,"end":10047.5,"text":"他是第二屆 我是第三屆"},{"start":10047.5,"end":10050.5,"text":"其實憲法的規定文字"},{"start":10051.08,"end":10053.08,"text":"並不必然拘束未來"},{"start":10053.08,"end":10055.08,"text":"如果只是談論"},{"start":10055.47,"end":10058.47,"text":"原住民的立法委員會產生的話"},{"start":10058.47,"end":10059.47,"text":"在沒有修憲之前"},{"start":10060.57,"end":10062.57,"text":"三元三明 平原三明"},{"start":10062.57,"end":10064.57,"text":"難道在選辦法當中沒辦法改變嗎"},{"start":10064.57,"end":10065.57,"text":"可以的"},{"start":10066.29,"end":10068.29,"text":"其實三元三明 平原三明"},{"start":10068.29,"end":10070.29,"text":"並沒有規定是複數選區還是單一選區"},{"start":10070.29,"end":10072.29,"text":"選報就可以規定"},{"start":10072.29,"end":10075.29,"text":"而且平原三明 三元三明的三元跟平原"},{"start":10075.29,"end":10078.29,"text":"到底是具體規範投票人還是候選人"},{"start":10078.29,"end":10079.29,"text":"也沒有具體說明"},{"start":10080.11,"end":10081.11,"text":"所以後續我們可以知道"},{"start":10081.11,"end":10083.11,"text":"若以憲法的正確條文的原意"},{"start":10083.11,"end":10085.11,"text":"或者他的解釋空間"},{"start":10086.51,"end":10088.51,"text":"只要是立法委員當中"},{"start":10088.75,"end":10091.75,"text":"三元三明 平原三明"},{"start":10091.75,"end":10093.75,"text":"至於你選區"},{"start":10094.71,"end":10097.71,"text":"投票人公民選舉人怎麼去規定"},{"start":10097.71,"end":10100.71,"text":"完全都沒有在憲法裡面所要要求的"},{"start":10100.71,"end":10102.71,"text":"我再強調一次"},{"start":10104.31,"end":10106.31,"text":"當選的人要怎麼證明他是"},{"start":10106.31,"end":10108.31,"text":"三元的身分還是平原的身分"},{"start":10108.31,"end":10110.31,"text":"這恐怕就是另一個問題了"},{"start":10110.31,"end":10111.31,"text":"也就是說"},{"start":10111.31,"end":10114.31,"text":"是不是在六個單一選區當中"},{"start":10114.31,"end":10117.31,"text":"選出了六席原住民的立法委員之後"},{"start":10117.31,"end":10120.31,"text":"那麼由三人來決定宣稱自己是三元"},{"start":10120.31,"end":10123.31,"text":"由三人來決定宣稱自己是平原"},{"start":10123.31,"end":10126.31,"text":"這樣也符合憲法正確條文的意旨"},{"start":10126.31,"end":10128.31,"text":"因為憲法的正確條文並沒有說明"},{"start":10128.31,"end":10131.31,"text":"這六席的立法委員席次"},{"start":10131.87,"end":10133.87,"text":"他是要怎麼去產生的"},{"start":10135.02,"end":10137.02,"text":"我們很容易直接投射到說"},{"start":10138.04,"end":10141.04,"text":"各縣市一民在憲法正確條文當中有保障"},{"start":10141.04,"end":10143.04,"text":"各縣市至少一民"},{"start":10143.04,"end":10145.04,"text":"那是行政區域的劃分概念"},{"start":10146.18,"end":10149.18,"text":"但是當我們說原住民族的立法委員的時候"},{"start":10149.18,"end":10153.18,"text":"並沒有投射行政區域規範"},{"start":10153.18,"end":10156.18,"text":"投票人選舉人的身分跟要求"},{"start":10157.45,"end":10158.45,"text":"所以說"},{"start":10158.76,"end":10159.76,"text":"沒有修憲之前"},{"start":10159.76,"end":10160.76,"text":"如果大家認為"},{"start":10162.68,"end":10166.68,"text":"三 原住民立法委員的選字要改變"},{"start":10166.68,"end":10168.68,"text":"個人私下的以為"},{"start":10168.68,"end":10171.68,"text":"不必然受到現在正確條文文字的限制"},{"start":10171.68,"end":10173.68,"text":"因為同樣的第十條"},{"start":10173.68,"end":10174.68,"text":"第十一項"},{"start":10174.68,"end":10175.68,"text":"也講得很清楚啊"},{"start":10175.68,"end":10177.68,"text":"就是原住民族啊"},{"start":10178.27,"end":10184.27,"text":"我們的法律應該去促成原住民族的政治地位參與的這樣的一個權利"},{"start":10184.27,"end":10185.27,"text":"所以呢"},{"start":10185.27,"end":10188.27,"text":"是否我們有機會再來辦理公聽會"},{"start":10188.27,"end":10191.27,"text":"就剛剛陳如剛剛施院長所說的"},{"start":10191.27,"end":10195.27,"text":"或許呢我們可以更開放一點的來討論另外一個可能性"},{"start":10195.27,"end":10196.27,"text":"在"},{"start":10196.58,"end":10199.58,"text":"沒有辦法更動憲法正條的情況之下"},{"start":10199.58,"end":10201.58,"text":"我們如何追求"},{"start":10201.58,"end":10202.58,"text":"我們原住民族"},{"start":10202.58,"end":10203.58,"text":"我們"},{"start":10203.58,"end":10204.58,"text":"正名"},{"start":10204.58,"end":10205.58,"text":"甚至政治參與權利"},{"start":10205.58,"end":10210.58,"text":"回歸到我們民族的根本的一個要求"},{"start":10210.58,"end":10212.58,"text":"那今天的這個公聽會"},{"start":10212.58,"end":10213.58,"text":"我們就到這裡"},{"start":10213.58,"end":10214.58,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":10215.09,"end":10215.59,"text":"散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}