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醫學倫理等課程"},{"start":2130.8,"end":2133.8,"text":"希望能提高學生的人文素養"},{"start":2133.8,"end":2135.8,"text":"我曾經擔任立法委員"},{"start":2135.8,"end":2138.8,"text":"在立法院擔任教育委員會召集委員"},{"start":2138.8,"end":2141.8,"text":"主導多項教育改革的法案"},{"start":2141.8,"end":2143.8,"text":"也獲得民間監督團體評選為"},{"start":2143.8,"end":2145.8,"text":"表現優良的立委"},{"start":2146.56,"end":2149.56,"text":"我曾經擔任高雄市衛生局長"},{"start":2149.56,"end":2151.56,"text":"任內推動多項改革"},{"start":2151.56,"end":2155.56,"text":"甚至因為嚴格取締不法廠商跟食品業者"},{"start":2155.56,"end":2158.56,"text":"受不法業者固凶行刺"},{"start":2158.56,"end":2161.56,"text":"過程中也有民代介入觀說"},{"start":2161.56,"end":2164.56,"text":"但我始終堅持依法研辦"},{"start":2164.56,"end":2166.56,"text":"這些經歷使我深刻了解"},{"start":2166.56,"end":2171.56,"text":"臺灣行政體系及少數不法業者的生態"},{"start":2171.56,"end":2173.56,"text":"也是我挑戰政治黑暗面"},{"start":2173.56,"end":2177.56,"text":"推動改革不畏犧牲的堅持的風格"},{"start":2177.56,"end":2181.56,"text":"SARS期間我擔任南區SARS總指揮官"},{"start":2181.56,"end":2184.56,"text":"成功帶領了南臺灣度過危機"},{"start":2184.56,"end":2186.56,"text":"守護了民眾健康"},{"start":2186.56,"end":2189.56,"text":"我在羅東生母醫院院長期間"},{"start":2189.56,"end":2191.56,"text":"以及之後在"},{"start":2191.55,"end":2194.55,"text":"花蓮門諾基金會董事長期間"},{"start":2194.55,"end":2197.55,"text":"都為了照顧偏鄉的老人及長照"},{"start":2197.55,"end":2201.55,"text":"努力興建了臺灣第一座老人醫療大樓"},{"start":2201.55,"end":2204.55,"text":"現在我仍然為屏東基督教醫院奔走"},{"start":2204.55,"end":2207.55,"text":"協助募款重建醫院區"},{"start":2207.55,"end":2209.55,"text":"希望提升南臺灣的醫療品質"},{"start":2209.55,"end":2211.55,"text":"照顧偏鄉民眾的健康"},{"start":2211.55,"end":2213.55,"text":"在我的心目中"},{"start":2213.55,"end":2217.55,"text":"監察院應該是一個立場超然的憲政機構"},{"start":2217.55,"end":2219.55,"text":"要追求社會的公平正義"},{"start":2219.55,"end":2222.55,"text":"糾談貪腐失職的官員"},{"start":2222.55,"end":2224.55,"text":"更應該成為保障國民權益"},{"start":2224.55,"end":2226.55,"text":"落實人權照顧的後盾"},{"start":2226.55,"end":2227.55,"text":"我必身"},{"start":2229.18,"end":2231.18,"text":"照顧弱勢維護人權"},{"start":2231.18,"end":2234.18,"text":"追求公義的初衷始終沒有改變"},{"start":2234.18,"end":2237.18,"text":"所以如果有機會出任監察院長"},{"start":2237.18,"end":2240.18,"text":"我必全力提升監察院應有的功能"},{"start":2240.18,"end":2244.18,"text":"第二對監察院廢除的看法和可行性探討"},{"start":2245.17,"end":2247.17,"text":"自從賴總統公佈了"},{"start":2247.17,"end":2249.17,"text":"下一屆監院的"},{"start":2249.49,"end":2251.49,"text":"委員的名單之後"},{"start":2251.49,"end":2253.49,"text":"社會上有不少廢除監察院的呼聲"},{"start":2253.49,"end":2258.49,"text":"甚至有主張應該全數刪除監察院的預算"},{"start":2258.49,"end":2261.49,"text":"並否決總統所提名的監察委員人選"},{"start":2261.49,"end":2264.49,"text":"這樣的主張是否合理可行呢"},{"start":2264.49,"end":2268.49,"text":"現在的中華民國憲法仍為五權憲法架構"},{"start":2268.49,"end":2270.49,"text":"監察院依法行使調查"},{"start":2270.49,"end":2273.49,"text":"糾正糾舉彈劾及審計職權"},{"start":2274.24,"end":2276.24,"text":"監察院內還有國家人權委員會"},{"start":2276.24,"end":2280.24,"text":"另外陽光法案負責公職人員財產申報"},{"start":2280.24,"end":2284.24,"text":"競選經費申報及政黨財產申報的監督"},{"start":2284.24,"end":2288.24,"text":"如果沒有經過修憲程序就凍結了監察院"},{"start":2288.24,"end":2293.24,"text":"等同放棄了對公務員貪瀆不法的重要監督機制"},{"start":2293.24,"end":2296.24,"text":"也放棄了攸關全民人權保障"},{"start":2296.24,"end":2299.24,"text":"銜接國際人權體系的機構"},{"start":2299.24,"end":2302.24,"text":"這樣的結果恐怕不是解決問題的方法"},{"start":2302.89,"end":2304.89,"text":"終結監察院不是不可行"},{"start":2304.89,"end":2308.89,"text":"但關鍵在於如何建立全民共識"},{"start":2308.89,"end":2312.89,"text":"本人的潛艦認為將來若有適當時機"},{"start":2312.89,"end":2314.89,"text":"由總統召開國事會議"},{"start":2314.89,"end":2318.89,"text":"邀集五院代表及朝野政黨代表"},{"start":2318.89,"end":2322.89,"text":"人權團體及弱勢團體還有憲政學者"},{"start":2322.89,"end":2325.89,"text":"共同來研議憲法的修正方向"},{"start":2325.89,"end":2328.89,"text":"監察權如何轉移審計權如何歸屬"},{"start":2328.89,"end":2331.89,"text":"國家人權委員會何去何從"},{"start":2331.89,"end":2333.89,"text":"陽關法案如何落實"},{"start":2333.89,"end":2335.89,"text":"這些有了共識以後"},{"start":2335.89,"end":2338.89,"text":"再送由立法院進入修憲程序"},{"start":2338.89,"end":2340.89,"text":"需要四分之三立委的同意"},{"start":2340.89,"end":2343.89,"text":"如果朝野不合作根本不能通過"},{"start":2345.22,"end":2347.22,"text":"之後還要交付公民投票"},{"start":2347.22,"end":2349.22,"text":"取得過半數的同意"},{"start":2350.21,"end":2353.21,"text":"如果沒有全民共識這麼高的門檻"},{"start":2353.21,"end":2355.21,"text":"公投案也不可能通過"},{"start":2355.21,"end":2357.21,"text":"我們回顧歷史李登輝總統"},{"start":2357.21,"end":2360.21,"text":"當年為了廢除國民大會"},{"start":2360.21,"end":2361.21,"text":"推動總統直選"},{"start":2361.21,"end":2363.21,"text":"就是召開了國事會議"},{"start":2363.21,"end":2366.21,"text":"凝聚朝野政黨跟民間的力量"},{"start":2366.21,"end":2368.21,"text":"才能夠一舉完成"},{"start":2368.21,"end":2371.21,"text":"第三監察院需要改革提升功能"},{"start":2371.21,"end":2373.21,"text":"在監察院尚未廢除以前"},{"start":2373.21,"end":2376.21,"text":"我認為更迫切的課題是"},{"start":2376.21,"end":2378.21,"text":"推動監察院的改革"},{"start":2378.21,"end":2380.21,"text":"我認為監察院沒有化會功能"},{"start":2381.75,"end":2384.75,"text":"而且不曉得監察院到底在做什麼"},{"start":2385.03,"end":2387.03,"text":"本人獲提名後努力的"},{"start":2387.03,"end":2389.03,"text":"看了監察院的資料才發現"},{"start":2389.03,"end":2393.03,"text":"從民國109年到115年"},{"start":2393.03,"end":2395.03,"text":"六年間監察院接受了"},{"start":2395.03,"end":2397.03,"text":"人民陳情案件十萬件"},{"start":2398.14,"end":2400.14,"text":"成立的彈劾案有227案"},{"start":2400.14,"end":2402.14,"text":"糾正案520案"},{"start":2402.14,"end":2404.14,"text":"要求改善案1300案"},{"start":2404.14,"end":2407.14,"text":"平均每年要受理15000個案子"},{"start":2407.14,"end":2410.14,"text":"每個監察委員的辦案量超過600案"},{"start":2411.1,"end":2414.1,"text":"除了辦案他們還要參與彈劾案的聯席審查"},{"start":2414.1,"end":2416.1,"text":"工作負荷量其實蠻重"},{"start":2417.21,"end":2419.21,"text":"監察案件網友需要深入調查"},{"start":2419.21,"end":2421.21,"text":"花費相當長的時間"},{"start":2421.21,"end":2423.21,"text":"彈劾案能夠成立"},{"start":2423.21,"end":2425.21,"text":"大多為高階的公務人員"},{"start":2425.21,"end":2429.21,"text":"甚至不乏檢察官跟法官遭彈劾"},{"start":2429.21,"end":2431.21,"text":"可見台灣社會對司法不公"},{"start":2431.21,"end":2434.21,"text":"行政不法確實有相當的民怨"},{"start":2434.21,"end":2438.21,"text":"監察院既是人民深淵的最後救濟管道"},{"start":2438.21,"end":2440.21,"text":"也是追求社會公益"},{"start":2440.21,"end":2442.21,"text":"保障人權的重要憲政機構"},{"start":2442.21,"end":2446.21,"text":"如何提升他的辦案的品質跟效率"},{"start":2446.21,"end":2448.21,"text":"才是監察院改革的重心"},{"start":2448.98,"end":2450.98,"text":"我作為一個醫療工作者"},{"start":2450.98,"end":2453.98,"text":"當我們發現一個醫院服務品質不好的時候"},{"start":2453.98,"end":2456.98,"text":"我們通常是找更好的醫生"},{"start":2456.98,"end":2459.98,"text":"提升醫院的設備來改善醫療品質"},{"start":2459.98,"end":2461.98,"text":"而不是將醫院關門"},{"start":2461.98,"end":2464.98,"text":"就好像我們覺得台灣治安不好"},{"start":2464.98,"end":2467.98,"text":"我們應該是要提升警察的素質"},{"start":2468.19,"end":2470.19,"text":"增加他們的設備"},{"start":2470.19,"end":2472.19,"text":"而不增加警政署的預算"},{"start":2472.19,"end":2474.19,"text":"不是將警政署廢掉"},{"start":2474.63,"end":2476.63,"text":"第四 我對監察院改革的方案"},{"start":2477.48,"end":2479.48,"text":"我如果能夠獲得立法院同意"},{"start":2479.48,"end":2481.48,"text":"順利進入監察院"},{"start":2481.48,"end":2483.48,"text":"我將推動以下重大改革"},{"start":2483.48,"end":2485.48,"text":"第一 設置發言人"},{"start":2485.48,"end":2486.48,"text":"定期召開記者會"},{"start":2486.48,"end":2488.48,"text":"公佈監察院"},{"start":2488.84,"end":2490.84,"text":"懲辦的案件及結果"},{"start":2491.14,"end":2493.14,"text":"而且我們也會注意到"},{"start":2493.14,"end":2496.14,"text":"保障個人隱私跟辦案期間不受干涉"},{"start":2496.14,"end":2499.14,"text":"第二 我們鼓勵媒體跟公民監督團體"},{"start":2499.14,"end":2501.14,"text":"定期評鑑監察委員的"},{"start":2501.4,"end":2503.4,"text":"表現 就像現在立法院有公督們"},{"start":2503.4,"end":2505.4,"text":"每年評鑑立委的表現"},{"start":2505.4,"end":2507.4,"text":"第三 監察院內部我們自己"},{"start":2507.4,"end":2509.4,"text":"訂定"},{"start":2509.41,"end":2511.41,"text":"辦案流程追蹤考核機制"},{"start":2511.41,"end":2513.41,"text":"自我提升服務品質"},{"start":2513.41,"end":2515.41,"text":"同時訂定自律公約"},{"start":2515.41,"end":2517.41,"text":"第四 積極的爭取預算"},{"start":2517.41,"end":2521.41,"text":"希望能增加調查官及調查人員的人力及數值"},{"start":2521.41,"end":2525.41,"text":"第五 我希望在公務人員訓練中心及文官訓練所"},{"start":2525.41,"end":2527.41,"text":"納入人權公約的課程"},{"start":2527.41,"end":2529.41,"text":"由人權委員及人權學者"},{"start":2530.84,"end":2532.84,"text":"提升公務員對人權保障的重視"},{"start":2534.25,"end":2538.25,"text":"第六 在監察院內我們自己成立修憲小組"},{"start":2538.25,"end":2541.25,"text":"由憲政學者的背景來就修憲內容"},{"start":2541.25,"end":2543.25,"text":"提出具體的建議"},{"start":2543.25,"end":2545.25,"text":"讓監察院在修正過程中"},{"start":2545.25,"end":2547.25,"text":"也扮演積極的角色"},{"start":2547.25,"end":2549.25,"text":"結語 行公義好臨民"},{"start":2549.25,"end":2551.25,"text":"存謙卑的心"},{"start":2551.25,"end":2555.25,"text":"是我被提名為下屆監察委員及院長的自我取許"},{"start":2555.25,"end":2558.25,"text":"我希望能超越黨派以無私之心"},{"start":2558.25,"end":2560.25,"text":"為臺灣社會和人民奉獻"},{"start":2560.25,"end":2563.25,"text":"將我的餘生投入監察院的改革工作"},{"start":2563.25,"end":2566.25,"text":"使監察院成為民眾信賴依靠的"},{"start":2566.25,"end":2569.25,"text":"最後深淵與人權保障之地"},{"start":2569.25,"end":2571.25,"text":"我期盼改革後的監察院"},{"start":2571.25,"end":2574.25,"text":"不會成為終結監察院的絆腳石"},{"start":2574.25,"end":2578.25,"text":"而是成為上帝應許公義得以彰顯的所在"},{"start":2578.25,"end":2582.25,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝各位議員進行指教"},{"start":2582.25,"end":2585.25,"text":"好 謝謝陳佩提名人之說明"},{"start":2588.08,"end":2590.08,"text":"現在進行委員詢問"},{"start":2590.08,"end":2592.08,"text":"首先請翁委員小林詢問"},{"start":2594.82,"end":2596.82,"text":"陳詐之委請準備"},{"start":2610.51,"end":2613.51,"text":"主席好 還有再坐這邊"},{"start":2613.51,"end":2614.51,"text":"再坐各位委員好"},{"start":2614.51,"end":2618.51,"text":"然後有請陳佩提名人"},{"start":2621.31,"end":2623.31,"text":"陳佩提名人陳醫師你好"},{"start":2623.31,"end":2627.31,"text":"那麼我想上週立法院有舉辦監察院的"},{"start":2627.31,"end":2630.31,"text":"監察委員的審查公聽會"},{"start":2630.31,"end":2632.31,"text":"當時許多專家學者都指出"},{"start":2632.31,"end":2635.31,"text":"這次的賴清德總統提名的監委的名單"},{"start":2635.31,"end":2640.31,"text":"政治色彩濃厚 然後專業配置失衡"},{"start":2640.31,"end":2642.31,"text":"基本上沒有一個工程背景的"},{"start":2642.31,"end":2644.31,"text":"這個佩提名人"},{"start":2644.31,"end":2648.31,"text":"也沒有相關跟財經專長有關的"},{"start":2648.31,"end":2651.31,"text":"背景的這個佩提名人也相當的有限"},{"start":2651.31,"end":2653.31,"text":"那許多的佩提名人"},{"start":2653.31,"end":2655.31,"text":"甚至很難以達到就是憲法上面"},{"start":2655.31,"end":2657.31,"text":"對於監察委員所要求的"},{"start":2657.31,"end":2660.31,"text":"要具備專業性中立性和獨立性"},{"start":2660.31,"end":2662.31,"text":"那外界同樣的也質疑就是說"},{"start":2662.31,"end":2665.31,"text":"其實賴清德總統他提出的這份監委的名單"},{"start":2665.31,"end":2668.31,"text":"基本上擺明了其實就是犧牲黨"},{"start":2668.31,"end":2672.31,"text":"因為呢這個不太可能會全數通過"},{"start":2672.31,"end":2674.31,"text":"不過看起來賴總統"},{"start":2674.31,"end":2676.31,"text":"其實可能也毫不在乎"},{"start":2676.31,"end":2677.31,"text":"也無所謂"},{"start":2677.31,"end":2680.31,"text":"因為他重要的目的就是要把在野黨"},{"start":2680.31,"end":2682.31,"text":"貼上是杯葛改革"},{"start":2682.31,"end":2685.31,"text":"然後癱瘓政府的這樣一個標籤"},{"start":2685.31,"end":2689.31,"text":"為年底的選舉增添這個天才加油"},{"start":2689.31,"end":2692.31,"text":"那也不是在尋求憲政機關的適當的人選"},{"start":2692.31,"end":2694.31,"text":"不過儘管如此"},{"start":2694.31,"end":2697.31,"text":"我們雖然說這份名單本身看起來不是很滿意"},{"start":2697.31,"end":2701.31,"text":"可是呢基於就是作為立法委員的職責"},{"start":2701.31,"end":2703.31,"text":"我還是要嚴謹的來審查"},{"start":2703.31,"end":2707.31,"text":"監察委員被提名人的這個資格條件"},{"start":2707.31,"end":2710.31,"text":"那麼在這邊我首先想要講的就是說"},{"start":2710.31,"end":2713.31,"text":"其實這個被提名陳醫師"},{"start":2713.31,"end":2716.31,"text":"您也曾經擔任國立法委員"},{"start":2716.31,"end":2717.31,"text":"大概都知道說"},{"start":2717.31,"end":2720.31,"text":"我們作為中華民國政府的官員"},{"start":2721.43,"end":2725.43,"text":"最重要的就是要對中華民國憲法忠誠"},{"start":2725.43,"end":2727.43,"text":"要對中華民國效忠"},{"start":2727.43,"end":2729.43,"text":"我想這是必備的要件"},{"start":2729.43,"end":2734.43,"text":"那麼可是陳醫師就是外界都稱呼您是這個"},{"start":2734.43,"end":2736.43,"text":"獨派的醫師"},{"start":2737.16,"end":2743.16,"text":"您長期主張台灣人共同要追求建立一個新而獨立的國家"},{"start":2743.16,"end":2747.16,"text":"那過去也曾經發起過新的新的台灣人運動"},{"start":2747.16,"end":2752.16,"text":"並且批評中華民國的名稱是無法代表台灣"},{"start":2752.16,"end":2757.16,"text":"而且難以接受這個中華民國這個虛幻"},{"start":2757.16,"end":2759.16,"text":"且看不到未來的稱號"},{"start":2759.16,"end":2761.16,"text":"所以呢本席在此想要請教就是說"},{"start":2761.16,"end":2766.16,"text":"您到現在是否依然堅定支持台灣獨立運動"},{"start":2766.16,"end":2769.16,"text":"並建立以台灣為名的國家"},{"start":2771.34,"end":2775.34,"text":"我一直是一個台灣本土意識很強的"},{"start":2776.2,"end":2778.2,"text":"意思"},{"start":2778.2,"end":2780.2,"text":"過去"},{"start":2779.92,"end":2781.92,"text":"在戒嚴沒有解除以前"},{"start":2782.16,"end":2788.16,"text":"中華民國沒有人權保障沒有言論自由一黨獨大"},{"start":2788.79,"end":2791.79,"text":"那那個時候我就很不能認同"},{"start":2791.79,"end":2792.79,"text":"但是"},{"start":2793.4,"end":2796.4,"text":"我一生只有一本中華民國的護照"},{"start":2796.4,"end":2798.4,"text":"我只有中華民國的身份證"},{"start":2798.4,"end":2799.4,"text":"所以"},{"start":2799.98,"end":2803.98,"text":"對於中華民國我很贊同現在賴總統說的"},{"start":2803.98,"end":2805.98,"text":"中華民國跟台灣已經融合了"},{"start":2805.98,"end":2807.98,"text":"幾十年來我們共同的努力"},{"start":2807.98,"end":2811.98,"text":"現在中華民國已經是一個自由民主"},{"start":2813.74,"end":2815.74,"text":"的一個國家多元的社會"},{"start":2815.74,"end":2818.74,"text":"您的意思是說您現在已經放棄了台獨"},{"start":2818.74,"end":2822.74,"text":"放棄了以建立台灣共和國為目的的這樣的一個目標嗎"},{"start":2822.74,"end":2824.74,"text":"我不是說放棄"},{"start":2824.74,"end":2828.74,"text":"這是個人的一個政治理念跟信仰跟理想"},{"start":2828.74,"end":2830.74,"text":"但是目前的中華民國"},{"start":2830.74,"end":2836.74,"text":"我還是根據五權憲法能夠行使五權憲法的職權"},{"start":2836.74,"end":2840.74,"text":"我進入監察院我照樣是維護中華民國的憲政體制"},{"start":2840.74,"end":2844.74,"text":"因為您今天在這個會場上面的談話"},{"start":2844.74,"end":2850.74,"text":"跟您過去在其他的媒體或其他的這個活動場合裡面的言論"},{"start":2850.74,"end":2852.74,"text":"基本上是很不相同的"},{"start":2852.74,"end":2856.74,"text":"那麼我想就是您應該知道您一旦獲准"},{"start":2856.74,"end":2860.74,"text":"能夠擔任中華民國監察院的院長"},{"start":2860.74,"end":2864.74,"text":"就必須要宣誓要恪遵中華民國憲法"},{"start":2864.74,"end":2867.74,"text":"要宣誓要效忠中華民國"},{"start":2867.74,"end":2869.74,"text":"您會說到做到嗎"},{"start":2870.52,"end":2871.52,"text":"你說什麼"},{"start":2871.52,"end":2873.52,"text":"就是如果你擔任監察院的院長"},{"start":2873.52,"end":2875.52,"text":"你必須要宣誓"},{"start":2875.52,"end":2877.52,"text":"宣誓效忠中華民國"},{"start":2877.52,"end":2879.52,"text":"宣誓要恪遵中華民國憲法"},{"start":2879.52,"end":2880.52,"text":"你可以做到嗎"},{"start":2880.52,"end":2882.52,"text":"這不會跟你的這個政治信仰"},{"start":2883.5,"end":2884.5,"text":"有所違背"},{"start":2885,"end":2886,"text":"我不覺得"},{"start":2886,"end":2887,"text":"你不覺得"},{"start":2887,"end":2888,"text":"是"},{"start":2888,"end":2890,"text":"所以呢你接下來就是說"},{"start":2891.58,"end":2894.58,"text":"基本上就是如果擔任監察院院長"},{"start":2894.58,"end":2898.58,"text":"你認為說你可以拋棄你的這個台獨的這個政治信仰"},{"start":2898.58,"end":2902.58,"text":"然後好好的做一個效忠中華民國憲法"},{"start":2902.58,"end":2906.58,"text":"而且認為中華民國是具有合法代表性的"},{"start":2906.58,"end":2908.58,"text":"這樣的一個監察院院長是嗎"},{"start":2908.58,"end":2912.58,"text":"對我想我剛剛有說到我不是要拋棄"},{"start":2912.58,"end":2915.58,"text":"我是覺得中華民國現在跟台灣已經結合"},{"start":2915.58,"end":2918.58,"text":"2300萬人是一個共同命運體"},{"start":2918.58,"end":2920.58,"text":"那我們要維護中華民國"},{"start":2920.58,"end":2923.58,"text":"不被中華人民共和國所併吞"},{"start":2923.58,"end":2926.58,"text":"維護這個中華民國的主權存在"},{"start":2926.58,"end":2927.58,"text":"謝謝陳醫師"},{"start":2927.58,"end":2930.58,"text":"我想就是說你今天這樣的想法"},{"start":2930.58,"end":2933.58,"text":"不管這種說法我想不管是獨派或是統派"},{"start":2933.58,"end":2938.58,"text":"大多數的民眾可能無法接受像您這樣子表裡不一"},{"start":2938.58,"end":2942.58,"text":"言行不一的人來擔任監察院院長"},{"start":2942.58,"end":2948.58,"text":"那您可以今天為了就是這個監察院院長的這樣一個名氣名利"},{"start":2948.58,"end":2949.58,"text":"拋棄長久的堅持"},{"start":2949.58,"end":2954.58,"text":"我想對於很多人來講這個不是一種人格分裂"},{"start":2954.58,"end":2957.58,"text":"可能就是代表一種綠綠心心法"},{"start":2957.58,"end":2959.58,"text":"我想中華民國的內涵已經改變了"},{"start":2959.58,"end":2961.58,"text":"過去的中華民國也不是現在的中華民國"},{"start":2963.47,"end":2968.47,"text":"以前的中華民國是要包括中國大陸還要反攻大陸"},{"start":2968.47,"end":2971.47,"text":"現在的國民黨也不講這個東西了嘛"},{"start":2971.47,"end":2973.47,"text":"所以中華民國已經實質改變了"},{"start":2973.47,"end":2978.47,"text":"陳院長陳北廷議員我想就是就這個議題來講"},{"start":2978.47,"end":2984.47,"text":"我們其實因為從您過去的言行到現在到您今天進入到立法院這個議場"},{"start":2984.47,"end":2987.47,"text":"之前的所有的談話我們都很清楚"},{"start":2987.47,"end":2993.47,"text":"您甚至當時還批評蔡英文說她把民進黨變成中華民國派"},{"start":2993.47,"end":2996.47,"text":"把民進黨變成是國民黨化"},{"start":2996.47,"end":3002.47,"text":"但像這樣子的一個言論基本上在您今天剛跟您對談之前"},{"start":3002.47,"end":3006.47,"text":"大家覺得說您應該是一個堅定的台獨信仰者"},{"start":3006.47,"end":3009.47,"text":"怎麼為了今天這個監察院院長的這個職位"},{"start":3009.47,"end":3014.47,"text":"然後就可以從台獨派華民轉身成為中華民國派"},{"start":3014.47,"end":3021.47,"text":"我想這個部分的話是大家可能比較沒有辦法可能是無法接受的一件事情"},{"start":3021.47,"end":3024.47,"text":"因為這個真的在我看起來您不是具有多重人格"},{"start":3024.47,"end":3026.47,"text":"要不然就是說可能為了這些名利"},{"start":3026.47,"end":3029.47,"text":"你可以就是拋棄你過去長久以來一些"},{"start":3029.47,"end":3031.47,"text":"我從來不追求個人的名利"},{"start":3031.47,"end":3036.47,"text":"好那接下來我想請教您就是說因為您被提名為監察院院長"},{"start":3036.47,"end":3041.47,"text":"那麼對於這個到底未來監察院何去何從要不要廢除的這個議題"},{"start":3041.47,"end":3044.47,"text":"本席基本上看了您的一些說明"},{"start":3044.47,"end":3046.47,"text":"基本上您是樂觀其成對不對"},{"start":3046.47,"end":3048.47,"text":"這個廢除監察院"},{"start":3048.47,"end":3050.47,"text":"基本上是樂觀其成嘛"},{"start":3050.47,"end":3053.47,"text":"就是平間主張從五權改為三權分立"},{"start":3053.47,"end":3054.47,"text":"對不對"},{"start":3056.09,"end":3058.09,"text":"就是監察權怎麼轉移"},{"start":3058.09,"end":3061.09,"text":"這個是要有很詳細的配套"},{"start":3061.49,"end":3063.49,"text":"好的那麼基本上我想六年覺得"},{"start":3063.49,"end":3064.49,"text":"不是一句話廢就廢"},{"start":3065.56,"end":3067.56,"text":"好陳秉霖陳醫師是這樣"},{"start":3067.56,"end":3069.56,"text":"六年前我想陳菊也曾經說過"},{"start":3069.56,"end":3072.56,"text":"她期許自己是最後一任的監察院院長"},{"start":3072.56,"end":3075.56,"text":"完成最後任務之後呢就會光榮離開"},{"start":3075.56,"end":3078.56,"text":"但是很遺憾的是我們看到陳菊院長"},{"start":3078.56,"end":3082.56,"text":"她不但沒有完成終結監察院的使命成為末代的院長"},{"start":3082.56,"end":3088.56,"text":"反倒是創下了中華民國有史以來請假最長的監察院院長和政務官員"},{"start":3088.56,"end":3090.56,"text":"她請假超過一年"},{"start":3090.56,"end":3092.56,"text":"那她請病假是請好請滿"},{"start":3092.56,"end":3094.56,"text":"而且站的位置又不做事"},{"start":3094.56,"end":3097.56,"text":"所以基本上就把監察院當成了養老院"},{"start":3097.56,"end":3100.56,"text":"那所以本席在此要請教您的是"},{"start":3100.56,"end":3103.56,"text":"您是抱著什麼樣的心態來擔任監察院院長"},{"start":3103.56,"end":3105.56,"text":"是像陳菊院長一樣嗎"},{"start":3105.56,"end":3108.56,"text":"然後把自己期許為是一個末代院長"},{"start":3108.56,"end":3111.56,"text":"然後之後可以廢掉這個監察院"},{"start":3111.56,"end":3113.56,"text":"還有第二個問題就是"},{"start":3113.56,"end":3117.56,"text":"有了像陳菊這種一年都沒有來上班"},{"start":3117.56,"end":3119.56,"text":"她請假請到現任這個前例"},{"start":3119.56,"end":3121.56,"text":"現在大家都會很擔心說"},{"start":3121.56,"end":3124.56,"text":"萬一有個院長也如法炮製"},{"start":3124.56,"end":3127.56,"text":"然後長期請假不來上班也不請辭"},{"start":3127.56,"end":3130.56,"text":"讓院長的職缺可以空缺一年"},{"start":3130.56,"end":3134.56,"text":"那您認為陳菊這樣的做法是否可取"},{"start":3134.56,"end":3138.56,"text":"那政務人員未來請假是不是應該要有所期間的限制"},{"start":3138.56,"end":3141.56,"text":"如果是您會像陳菊一樣"},{"start":3141.56,"end":3143.56,"text":"萬一有假設請病假的時候"},{"start":3143.56,"end":3145.56,"text":"你會像她一樣請好請滿嗎"},{"start":3146.71,"end":3150.71,"text":"第一個過去六年因為朝野沒有啟動修憲的程序"},{"start":3150.71,"end":3152.71,"text":"所以監察院沒有被廢"},{"start":3152.71,"end":3154.71,"text":"那這個不是監察院的問題"},{"start":3154.71,"end":3156.71,"text":"因為修憲的"},{"start":3156.71,"end":3157.71,"text":"請問您是什麼樣的心態"},{"start":3157.71,"end":3159.71,"text":"您會期許自己是一個末代院長嗎"},{"start":3160.63,"end":3162.63,"text":"我希望我是監察院的改革者"},{"start":3163.28,"end":3166.28,"text":"至於監察院的終結者應該是全民"},{"start":3167.15,"end":3169.15,"text":"那第二個請假的問題"},{"start":3169.15,"end":3171.15,"text":"我如果自己身體不健康"},{"start":3171.15,"end":3172.15,"text":"我馬上請辭"},{"start":3173.22,"end":3175.22,"text":"所以您不會像陳菊這樣吧"},{"start":3175.22,"end":3177.22,"text":"請假請了超過一年"},{"start":3177.44,"end":3178.44,"text":"我沒有想說"},{"start":3179.21,"end":3181.21,"text":"一定要做監察院長"},{"start":3181.21,"end":3183.21,"text":"但是我既然做監察院長"},{"start":3183.21,"end":3185.21,"text":"我就要改革監察院"},{"start":3185.9,"end":3188.9,"text":"民眾深淵真的公義得以彰顯之地"},{"start":3188.9,"end":3190.9,"text":"不能花費這樣的功能"},{"start":3190.9,"end":3191.9,"text":"我也不想做"},{"start":3191.9,"end":3193.9,"text":"好謝謝陳培庭秘人"},{"start":3193.9,"end":3195.9,"text":"我覺得從您的說法裡面"},{"start":3195.9,"end":3198.9,"text":"基本上我是對於您對陳菊的這種做法"},{"start":3198.9,"end":3201.9,"text":"認為是一個不可取不值得效法的做法"},{"start":3201.9,"end":3204.9,"text":"本席值得對您的意見"},{"start":3204.9,"end":3206.9,"text":"我沒有這樣批評"},{"start":3206.9,"end":3207.9,"text":"我是說我自己"},{"start":3207.9,"end":3209.9,"text":"但是本席還是希望"},{"start":3209.9,"end":3212.9,"text":"您假設有一天可以擔任監察院長的話"},{"start":3212.9,"end":3214.9,"text":"應該要效忠中華民國"},{"start":3214.9,"end":3215.9,"text":"這以上謝謝"},{"start":3219.11,"end":3222.11,"text":"好謝謝黃委員"},{"start":3222.11,"end":3225.11,"text":"現在我們請陳昭之委員詢問"},{"start":3230.26,"end":3230.76,"text":"對"},{"start":3232.83,"end":3234.83,"text":"陳培庭秘人這個"},{"start":3234.83,"end":3237.83,"text":"犯人質疑期間你可以先休息"},{"start":3248.47,"end":3248.97,"text":"好"},{"start":3249.36,"end":3250.36,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":3250.36,"end":3254.36,"text":"有請監察院長 培庭秘人陳永新先生"},{"start":3254.36,"end":3256.36,"text":"請陳培庭秘人"},{"start":3257.23,"end":3257.73,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":3262.63,"end":3263.63,"text":"好 培庭秘人好"},{"start":3263.63,"end":3265.63,"text":"以下我稱呼您陳醫師好嗎"},{"start":3266.04,"end":3267.04,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":3267.04,"end":3270.04,"text":"陳醫師我們曾經長期站在同一個陣營"},{"start":3270.04,"end":3273.04,"text":"至少有30年的時間吧"},{"start":3273.04,"end":3276.04,"text":"應該是遠從李正元教授時期開始"},{"start":3276.72,"end":3280.72,"text":"我相信我們有許多共同的民主信念跟普世價值"},{"start":3280.72,"end":3283.72,"text":"也都是在那個時期一起建立的"},{"start":3283.72,"end":3287.72,"text":"1993年您競選花蓮縣縣長"},{"start":3287.72,"end":3290.72,"text":"我跟我先生還有許多醫藥界的朋友"},{"start":3290.72,"end":3294.72,"text":"我們搭火車到花蓮去幫您助選掃街"},{"start":3295.9,"end":3296.4,"text":"啊"},{"start":3297.32,"end":3297.82,"text":"今天"},{"start":3298.65,"end":3302.15,"text":"我自認為我還是站在這個原點"},{"start":3302.15,"end":3303.15,"text":"最初的原點"},{"start":3303.15,"end":3306.15,"text":"秉持這個初衷跟這個價值"},{"start":3306.15,"end":3308.15,"text":"但是我又親眼見證了"},{"start":3309.15,"end":3312.15,"text":"曾經全力支持著從一盤散沙"},{"start":3312.15,"end":3313.65,"text":"到全力政黨"},{"start":3313.65,"end":3315.15,"text":"到政黨的輪替"},{"start":3315.15,"end":3316.15,"text":"首次政黨輪替"},{"start":3316.73,"end":3318.23,"text":"到完全執政"},{"start":3318.23,"end":3321.23,"text":"乃至於到今天的這個三度執政"},{"start":3321.23,"end":3322.73,"text":"我覺得"},{"start":3323.8,"end":3324.8,"text":"這個我所支持的"},{"start":3324.8,"end":3326.3,"text":"當時的這樣一個民進黨"},{"start":3326.3,"end":3328.8,"text":"已經慢慢偏離了原點"},{"start":3328.8,"end":3330.3,"text":"慢慢越走的越遠"},{"start":3330.3,"end":3331.3,"text":"陳醫師"},{"start":3331.3,"end":3332.8,"text":"我們上一次的會面"},{"start":3332.8,"end":3334.8,"text":"應該是2019年6月7號"},{"start":3335.56,"end":3337.56,"text":"我們同坐在一個記者會上"},{"start":3337.56,"end":3340.56,"text":"那時我們跟吳理培執政"},{"start":3341.62,"end":3343.62,"text":"跟那個法醫高大成先生"},{"start":3343.62,"end":3345.12,"text":"坐在一個記者會上"},{"start":3345.12,"end":3346.62,"text":"我們共同去支持"},{"start":3347.22,"end":3351.22,"text":"挑戰當時要競選連任總統的賴清德先生"},{"start":3351.22,"end":3354.22,"text":"當時我們是選擇一個人煙許少的路"},{"start":3354.22,"end":3356.72,"text":"因為那時候我們是少數"},{"start":3357.94,"end":3360.44,"text":"陳醫師我在7月23號"},{"start":3360.44,"end":3363.44,"text":"看到您來拜會韓院長的照片"},{"start":3364.3,"end":3367.3,"text":"那您效命運的態度非常的友善"},{"start":3367.3,"end":3370.3,"text":"那當時我心中有非常大的感觸"},{"start":3371,"end":3373,"text":"陳幾何時陳醫師您願意"},{"start":3373,"end":3376,"text":"願意跟這個韓院長握手"},{"start":3376,"end":3378,"text":"那我想請問陳醫師"},{"start":3378,"end":3380,"text":"您之前是否認識韓院長"},{"start":3380,"end":3381.5,"text":"有跟他互動過嗎"},{"start":3382.42,"end":3383.42,"text":"在此之前"},{"start":3385.09,"end":3388.09,"text":"我當然韓院長是大眾人物"},{"start":3388.09,"end":3389.09,"text":"我當然知道他"},{"start":3389.09,"end":3391.09,"text":"但是私下沒有互動過"},{"start":3391.09,"end":3392.09,"text":"沒有互動啦"},{"start":3394.62,"end":3395.62,"text":"所以我們對他"},{"start":3396.26,"end":3398.26,"text":"之前的認知可能都是來自"},{"start":3398.26,"end":3401.26,"text":"比較統溫層的媒體等等"},{"start":3401.26,"end":3402.26,"text":"那我們都兩個"},{"start":3402.26,"end":3404.76,"text":"我們兩個都曾經用力的批評過韓院長"},{"start":3404.76,"end":3405.76,"text":"是這樣的"},{"start":3405.76,"end":3407.76,"text":"那您批評的力道也不會比我輕"},{"start":3407.76,"end":3409.26,"text":"您用字的用字譴辭"},{"start":3409.26,"end":3411.26,"text":"大概也不會比我客氣"},{"start":3411.26,"end":3413.26,"text":"事實上我們批評他的主因"},{"start":3413.26,"end":3416.26,"text":"我相信其中很重要一個原因"},{"start":3416.26,"end":3419.26,"text":"是因為他是屬於相對親中的"},{"start":3419.26,"end":3422.26,"text":"國民黨的政治人物"},{"start":3422.26,"end":3425.76,"text":"那跟我們兩個國家認同是有差別的"},{"start":3425.76,"end":3427.26,"text":"陳醫師我可不可以知道"},{"start":3427.26,"end":3429.76,"text":"那天您握韓院長的手的時候"},{"start":3429.76,"end":3431.26,"text":"您的感覺是什麼"},{"start":3432.25,"end":3433.25,"text":"我真的不知道"},{"start":3433.25,"end":3434.25,"text":"我真的不知道"},{"start":3434.25,"end":3435.25,"text":"我真的不知道"},{"start":3435.25,"end":3436.25,"text":"我真的不知道"},{"start":3436.25,"end":3437.25,"text":"我真的不知道"},{"start":3437.25,"end":3438.25,"text":"我真的不知道"},{"start":3438.25,"end":3439.25,"text":"我真的不知道"},{"start":3439.25,"end":3440.25,"text":"我真的不知道"},{"start":3440.25,"end":3441.25,"text":"我真的不知道"},{"start":3441.25,"end":3442.25,"text":"我真的不知道"},{"start":3442.25,"end":3443.25,"text":"我真的不知道"},{"start":3443.25,"end":3444.25,"text":"我真的不知道"},{"start":3444.25,"end":3445.25,"text":"我真的不知道"},{"start":3445.25,"end":3446.25,"text":"我真的不知道"},{"start":3446.25,"end":3447.25,"text":"我真的不知道"},{"start":3447.25,"end":3448.25,"text":"我真的不知道"},{"start":3448.25,"end":3449.25,"text":"我真的不知道"},{"start":3449.25,"end":3450.25,"text":"我真的不知道"},{"start":3450.25,"end":3451.25,"text":"我真的不知道"},{"start":3451.25,"end":3452.25,"text":"我真的不知道"},{"start":3452.25,"end":3453.25,"text":"我真的不知道"},{"start":3453.25,"end":3454.25,"text":"我真的不知道"},{"start":3454.25,"end":3455.25,"text":"我真的不知道"},{"start":3455.25,"end":3456.25,"text":"我真的不知道"},{"start":3456.25,"end":3457.25,"text":"我真的不知道"},{"start":3457.25,"end":3458.25,"text":"我真的不知道"},{"start":3458.25,"end":3459.25,"text":"我真的不知道"},{"start":3459.25,"end":3460.25,"text":"我真的不知道"},{"start":3460.25,"end":3461.25,"text":"我真的不知道"},{"start":3433.33,"end":3435.33,"text":"那天我們是客人"},{"start":3435.33,"end":3438.33,"text":"我們是來拜會立法院"},{"start":3438.33,"end":3442.33,"text":"那這個韓院長他對每一個來訪的"},{"start":3442.33,"end":3446.33,"text":"監察委員人選都是親切握手"},{"start":3446.33,"end":3447.33,"text":"是"},{"start":3448.3,"end":3451.3,"text":"那個潘孟安秘書長請我們握手"},{"start":3451.3,"end":3452.3,"text":"我也是很自然而已"},{"start":3452.3,"end":3455.3,"text":"沒有什麼特別的其他意思"},{"start":3455.3,"end":3456.3,"text":"好"},{"start":3456.3,"end":3458.3,"text":"那陳醫師"},{"start":3458.3,"end":3461.3,"text":"您與一群夥伴開辦這個民報"},{"start":3461.3,"end":3464.3,"text":"那當時我是為台灣發聲嘛"},{"start":3464.3,"end":3465.3,"text":"當時我是非常的敬佩"},{"start":3465.3,"end":3467.3,"text":"因為我聽到很多人說"},{"start":3467.3,"end":3468.3,"text":"如果你要害死一個人"},{"start":3468.3,"end":3470.3,"text":"就勸他去辦報紙 辦雜誌"},{"start":3470.3,"end":3472.3,"text":"因為這是注定一個不會賺錢"},{"start":3472.3,"end":3475.3,"text":"可能是會虧錢的一個行業"},{"start":3475.3,"end":3477.3,"text":"我也非常的清楚明白"},{"start":3477.3,"end":3479.3,"text":"剛剛我們稍微提到"},{"start":3480.23,"end":3482.23,"text":"您不是所謂的華獨"},{"start":3482.23,"end":3484.23,"text":"而是所謂的台獨"},{"start":3484.23,"end":3486.23,"text":"因為您反對將台灣的命運"},{"start":3486.23,"end":3490.23,"text":"交給比較虛幻的中華民國"},{"start":3490.23,"end":3491.23,"text":"我這個說法"},{"start":3491.23,"end":3493.23,"text":"因為我對這個說法太熟悉了"},{"start":3493.23,"end":3495.23,"text":"但是陳醫師"},{"start":3495.23,"end":3496.23,"text":"在民進黨完全"},{"start":3496.23,"end":3498.23,"text":"民進黨從這個"},{"start":3498.47,"end":3500.47,"text":"到完全執政"},{"start":3500.47,"end":3502.47,"text":"那八年到現在"},{"start":3502.47,"end":3503.47,"text":"那所謂的台派獨派"},{"start":3503.47,"end":3506.47,"text":"我覺得幾乎都某個程度"},{"start":3506.47,"end":3509.47,"text":"變癢 變聾 變瞎了"},{"start":3509.47,"end":3511.47,"text":"為什麼我要這樣說呢"},{"start":3511.47,"end":3513.47,"text":"因為過去他們承諾我們的"},{"start":3513.47,"end":3515.47,"text":"每一件事情都沒有做"},{"start":3515.92,"end":3519.92,"text":"包括制憲 正名 國號 國歌 國旗"},{"start":3519.92,"end":3521.92,"text":"甚至改用新元紀念"},{"start":3521.92,"end":3522.92,"text":"大概是陳總統"},{"start":3522.92,"end":3523.92,"text":"出現過一小段時間"},{"start":3524.85,"end":3526.85,"text":"一件事都沒有做到"},{"start":3526.85,"end":3529.85,"text":"連嘗試努力的企圖也看不到"},{"start":3529.85,"end":3531.85,"text":"然而同時"},{"start":3531.85,"end":3533.85,"text":"我卻看到"},{"start":3533.98,"end":3535.98,"text":"一起長大的民進黨的這個"},{"start":3537.57,"end":3539.57,"text":"同仁們最悄悄的"},{"start":3539.57,"end":3541.57,"text":"慢慢的質變了"},{"start":3541.57,"end":3543.57,"text":"開始出現了我們當年"},{"start":3543.57,"end":3545.57,"text":"一起批評國民黨的"},{"start":3545.57,"end":3548.57,"text":"作為的那些事項行為都出現了"},{"start":3548.57,"end":3550.57,"text":"所以我想您才會在2019年"},{"start":3550.57,"end":3551.57,"text":"拍了一部"},{"start":3551.57,"end":3554.57,"text":"這部片子給台派的真心話"},{"start":3554.57,"end":3555.57,"text":"裡面這樣說"},{"start":3556.56,"end":3558.56,"text":"今天不是說民進黨這件事情"},{"start":3558.56,"end":3559.56,"text":"我們的事就是這樣"},{"start":3559.56,"end":3562.56,"text":"也不是說做了一選一的台灣人"},{"start":3562.56,"end":3564.56,"text":"做中華民國的總統"},{"start":3564.56,"end":3566.56,"text":"我們的事就是這樣"},{"start":3567.24,"end":3568.24,"text":"好"},{"start":3568.79,"end":3570.79,"text":"您並不認為蔡英文總統"},{"start":3570.79,"end":3572.79,"text":"所講的中華民國台灣"},{"start":3572.79,"end":3574.79,"text":"就是等於台灣建國已經完成"},{"start":3574.79,"end":3576.79,"text":"我的理解正確嗎"},{"start":3576.79,"end":3578.79,"text":"我的理解有正確嗎"},{"start":3578.79,"end":3579.79,"text":"陳委員"},{"start":3579.79,"end":3581.79,"text":"我離開民進黨20年以上了"},{"start":3581.79,"end":3582.79,"text":"所以你的感受"},{"start":3582.79,"end":3583.79,"text":"我們在談信念"},{"start":3583.79,"end":3585.79,"text":"你的感受我也是"},{"start":3586.98,"end":3587.98,"text":"一樣"},{"start":3587.98,"end":3588.98,"text":"那我今天被提名"},{"start":3588.98,"end":3590.98,"text":"不是被民進黨提名"},{"start":3592.31,"end":3593.31,"text":"我也認為"},{"start":3593.31,"end":3596.31,"text":"我是為台灣人民來改革檢查"},{"start":3596.31,"end":3597.31,"text":"所以"},{"start":3598.02,"end":3601.02,"text":"我沒有民進黨的任何的想法"},{"start":3601.02,"end":3603.02,"text":"那個陳醫師就是說"},{"start":3603.02,"end":3604.02,"text":"現在的賴總統"},{"start":3604.02,"end":3607.02,"text":"他也是說中華民國台灣"},{"start":3607.02,"end":3608.02,"text":"所以摸一下他的屏東"},{"start":3608.02,"end":3610.02,"text":"他也是把台灣"},{"start":3610.02,"end":3612.02,"text":"您曾經所避諱的"},{"start":3612.02,"end":3614.02,"text":"把台灣交給了一半的中華民國"},{"start":3614.02,"end":3616.02,"text":"賴總統要請我接受的時候"},{"start":3616.02,"end":3617.02,"text":"他講了一句話"},{"start":3617.02,"end":3619.02,"text":"他說他希望監察院是"},{"start":3619.02,"end":3621.02,"text":"台灣人民的監察院"},{"start":3623.95,"end":3625.95,"text":"所以他也告訴我"},{"start":3625.95,"end":3627.95,"text":"可能不會被通過"},{"start":3627.95,"end":3630.95,"text":"那你可能是為這個犧牲"},{"start":3630.95,"end":3631.95,"text":"我覺得"},{"start":3631.95,"end":3633.95,"text":"如果要為了台灣人民奉獻"},{"start":3633.95,"end":3634.95,"text":"我願意"},{"start":3634.95,"end":3635.95,"text":"陳醫師"},{"start":3635.95,"end":3637.95,"text":"我現在的職務是立委"},{"start":3637.95,"end":3639.95,"text":"那我負責監督行政機關"},{"start":3639.95,"end":3642.95,"text":"審查行政機關的這個預算"},{"start":3642.95,"end":3644.95,"text":"為納稅人的託付"},{"start":3644.95,"end":3646.95,"text":"跟我的這個權益"},{"start":3646.95,"end":3647.95,"text":"跟納稅人的權益把關"},{"start":3647.95,"end":3648.95,"text":"因為我們的立法院"},{"start":3648.95,"end":3650.95,"text":"是有民意基礎的"},{"start":3650.95,"end":3652.95,"text":"那我自己有專業有熱誠"},{"start":3652.95,"end":3654.95,"text":"我覺得我自己也有任務"},{"start":3654.95,"end":3655.95,"text":"也有紀律"},{"start":3655.95,"end":3657.95,"text":"因為身在這個"},{"start":3657.95,"end":3659.95,"text":"更因為我身在關鍵的政黨"},{"start":3659.95,"end":3660.95,"text":"民眾黨"},{"start":3660.95,"end":3661.95,"text":"而不是民進黨喔"},{"start":3661.95,"end":3662.95,"text":"所以兩年前"},{"start":3662.95,"end":3664.95,"text":"當我走進會場的時候"},{"start":3664.95,"end":3666.95,"text":"那個時候IPEC的執行長"},{"start":3666.95,"end":3668.95,"text":"跟這個外交部兴起若狂"},{"start":3668.95,"end":3670.95,"text":"因為我的加入以後"},{"start":3670.95,"end":3672.95,"text":"台灣才能有資格成為"},{"start":3672.95,"end":3674.95,"text":"IPEC的會員國"},{"start":3674.95,"end":3677.95,"text":"蕭副總統去年也才能夠到比利時"},{"start":3678.46,"end":3679.46,"text":"去演講"},{"start":3679.46,"end":3680.46,"text":"他還親自寫信"},{"start":3680.46,"end":3681.46,"text":"跟我致謝"},{"start":3682.19,"end":3683.19,"text":"而您喔"},{"start":3683.19,"end":3685.19,"text":"此刻是被提名為"},{"start":3685.19,"end":3687.19,"text":"中華民國的監察院院長"},{"start":3687.19,"end":3688.19,"text":"我相信您心中"},{"start":3688.19,"end":3690.19,"text":"也是有抱負有理想的"},{"start":3690.19,"end":3691.19,"text":"但我必須要問"},{"start":3691.19,"end":3692.19,"text":"我必須要確定"},{"start":3692.19,"end":3694.19,"text":"您將會是過去"},{"start":3694.19,"end":3696.19,"text":"大家認為是屬於外來政權的"},{"start":3696.19,"end":3699.19,"text":"中華民國監察院院長"},{"start":3699.19,"end":3702.19,"text":"還是民進黨的監察院院長"},{"start":3702.19,"end":3704.19,"text":"我不需要做特別闡述"},{"start":3704.19,"end":3706.19,"text":"因為我們兩個對這兩個區別"},{"start":3706.19,"end":3707.19,"text":"是非常的清楚的"},{"start":3707.19,"end":3709.19,"text":"那請告訴我您的答案"},{"start":3709.19,"end":3710.19,"text":"也告訴我"},{"start":3710.19,"end":3712.19,"text":"如果你能夠證明它"},{"start":3713.21,"end":3715.21,"text":"我想我剛剛已經講了"},{"start":3715.21,"end":3717.21,"text":"現在的監察院應該是"},{"start":3717.21,"end":3720.21,"text":"台灣兩千三百萬人民的監察院"},{"start":3720.21,"end":3722.21,"text":"為台灣人民服務"},{"start":3722.21,"end":3724.21,"text":"所以它既不是外來政權"},{"start":3724.21,"end":3726.21,"text":"中華民國的監察院"},{"start":3726.21,"end":3728.21,"text":"也不是民進黨的監察院"},{"start":3728.21,"end":3731.21,"text":"監察院本來就應該超越黨派的思維"},{"start":3731.21,"end":3733.21,"text":"所以我完全站在"},{"start":3733.21,"end":3735.21,"text":"不是黨派的立場思考這個問題"},{"start":3735.21,"end":3739.21,"text":"就是台灣社會需要一個監督"},{"start":3739.21,"end":3741.21,"text":"政府單位的機構"},{"start":3741.21,"end":3743.21,"text":"需要一個保障人權的機構"},{"start":3743.21,"end":3745.21,"text":"所以我才覺得監察院"},{"start":3745.21,"end":3748.21,"text":"是應該要提升它的功能"},{"start":3748.21,"end":3749.21,"text":"好好的做事情"},{"start":3749.21,"end":3750.21,"text":"好陳醫師"},{"start":3750.21,"end":3751.21,"text":"是"},{"start":3751.21,"end":3752.21,"text":"我們聽到您說"},{"start":3752.21,"end":3753.21,"text":"意思說你要很公正"},{"start":3753.21,"end":3755.21,"text":"做兩千三百"},{"start":3755.21,"end":3757.21,"text":"現在只剩下三十萬人的"},{"start":3757.21,"end":3759.21,"text":"這個監察院院長"},{"start":3759.21,"end":3761.21,"text":"您就是您的信念"},{"start":3761.21,"end":3763.21,"text":"就是說公義"},{"start":3763.21,"end":3764.21,"text":"行公義"},{"start":3764.21,"end":3767.21,"text":"那而且要照顧弱勢"},{"start":3767.21,"end":3768.21,"text":"要公平"},{"start":3768.21,"end":3769.21,"text":"但是我們過去看到的監察院"},{"start":3769.21,"end":3771.21,"text":"事實上我們某個程度"},{"start":3771.21,"end":3773.21,"text":"我們相當的真據是"},{"start":3773.21,"end":3775.21,"text":"只打蒼蠅不打老虎"},{"start":3775.21,"end":3777.21,"text":"所以我特別就是這樣子來請教你"},{"start":3777.21,"end":3780.21,"text":"另外很重要我想以過來人身份"},{"start":3780.21,"end":3782.21,"text":"過來人身份提醒您"},{"start":3782.21,"end":3783.21,"text":"如果您選擇做"},{"start":3784.76,"end":3785.76,"text":"當然您剛剛說不是了"},{"start":3785.76,"end":3788.76,"text":"因為如果你選擇做民進黨的監察院院長"},{"start":3788.76,"end":3790.76,"text":"那你因為他現在不過半"},{"start":3790.76,"end":3791.76,"text":"所以您不會通過任命案"},{"start":3791.76,"end":3794.76,"text":"但是如果您選擇作為國家"},{"start":3794.76,"end":3797.76,"text":"國家的這個監察院院長"},{"start":3797.76,"end":3800.76,"text":"作為中立客觀的監察院院長"},{"start":3800.76,"end":3801.76,"text":"不分顏色"},{"start":3801.76,"end":3804.76,"text":"你要認真去糾舉包含執政黨"},{"start":3804.76,"end":3807.76,"text":"民進黨政府下的不法跟貪瀆"},{"start":3807.76,"end":3810.76,"text":"那你會被綠反青鳥攻擊"},{"start":3810.76,"end":3812.76,"text":"童文臣攻擊說你是背叛"},{"start":3812.76,"end":3815.76,"text":"你是不顧著 挽決不保"},{"start":3815.76,"end":3818.76,"text":"那請問你再這樣子通過任命案"},{"start":3818.76,"end":3820.76,"text":"跟被罵背叛跟挽決不保"},{"start":3820.76,"end":3821.76,"text":"你選擇什麼"},{"start":3824.28,"end":3825.28,"text":"這是我的經歷"},{"start":3826.47,"end":3830.47,"text":"我的個性就是論事 不分顏色"},{"start":3830.86,"end":3833.86,"text":"我做一個醫生 我看病人不會問說"},{"start":3833.86,"end":3834.86,"text":"你是哪一個黨"},{"start":3834.86,"end":3836.86,"text":"我應該救他就救他"},{"start":3836.86,"end":3838.86,"text":"一樣 我到監察院也是一樣"},{"start":3838.86,"end":3840.86,"text":"要辦案 不分顏色"},{"start":3841.32,"end":3844.32,"text":"所以確實有證據該彈劾就彈劾"},{"start":3844.32,"end":3846.32,"text":"好 那陳醫師我請教你"},{"start":3846.32,"end":3847.32,"text":"我當時加入民眾黨的時候"},{"start":3847.32,"end":3850.32,"text":"你有沒有加入其他人一起責罵過我呢"},{"start":3850.32,"end":3851.32,"text":"我這題不是為我自己問的"},{"start":3852.37,"end":3854.37,"text":"我沒有罵過你"},{"start":3854.37,"end":3855.37,"text":"你沒有 謝謝你"},{"start":3855.37,"end":3858.37,"text":"因為我覺得台灣現在變成二分法了"},{"start":3858.37,"end":3860.37,"text":"二分法的意思就是很簡單"},{"start":3860.37,"end":3863.37,"text":"生活那個顏色跟是非是分開的"},{"start":3863.37,"end":3865.37,"text":"這是多元的社會"},{"start":3865.37,"end":3867.37,"text":"所以任何一個政黨"},{"start":3873.27,"end":3874.27,"text":"好"},{"start":3876.29,"end":3878.29,"text":"謝謝陳委員"},{"start":3878.68,"end":3880.68,"text":"好 謝謝準備提名人"},{"start":3880.68,"end":3883.68,"text":"下一位我們請林黛樺委員詢問"},{"start":3892.05,"end":3894.05,"text":"請問你會不會在這個時候"},{"start":3894.05,"end":3895.05,"text":"會不會在這個時候"},{"start":3895.05,"end":3896.05,"text":"會不會在這個時候"},{"start":3896.05,"end":3897.05,"text":"會不會在這個時候"},{"start":3897.05,"end":3898.05,"text":"會不會在這個時候"},{"start":3898.05,"end":3899.05,"text":"會不會在這個時候"},{"start":3899.05,"end":3900.05,"text":"會不會在這個時候"},{"start":3900.05,"end":3901.05,"text":"會不會在這個時候"},{"start":3901.05,"end":3902.05,"text":"會不會在這個時候"},{"start":3902.05,"end":3903.05,"text":"會不會在這個時候"},{"start":3903.05,"end":3904.05,"text":"會不會在這個時候"},{"start":3904.05,"end":3905.05,"text":"會不會在這個時候"},{"start":3905.05,"end":3906.05,"text":"會不會在這個時候"},{"start":3906.05,"end":3907.05,"text":"會不會在這個時候"},{"start":3907.05,"end":3908.05,"text":"會不會在這個時候"},{"start":3908.05,"end":3909.05,"text":"會不會在這個時候"},{"start":3909.05,"end":3910.05,"text":"會不會在這個時候"},{"start":3910.05,"end":3911.05,"text":"會不會在這個時候"},{"start":3911.05,"end":3912.05,"text":"會不會在這個時候"},{"start":3912.05,"end":3913.05,"text":"會不會在這個時候"},{"start":3913.05,"end":3914.05,"text":"會不會在這個時候"},{"start":3914.05,"end":3915.05,"text":"會不會在這個時候"},{"start":3915.05,"end":3916.05,"text":"會不會在這個時候"},{"start":3916.05,"end":3917.05,"text":"會不會在這個時候"},{"start":3917.05,"end":3918.05,"text":"會不會在這個時候"},{"start":3918.05,"end":3919.05,"text":"會不會在這個時候"},{"start":3919.05,"end":3920.05,"text":"會不會在這個時候"},{"start":3920.05,"end":3921.05,"text":"會不會在這個時候"},{"start":3898.81,"end":3901.81,"text":"好 有請我們陳提名人"},{"start":3902.98,"end":3903.98,"text":"請陳佩提名人"},{"start":3905.48,"end":3906.48,"text":"請"},{"start":3908.82,"end":3909.82,"text":"好"},{"start":3909.93,"end":3913.93,"text":"首先在代華如果身為晚輩"},{"start":3913.93,"end":3915.93,"text":"我真的是非常敬佩陳院長"},{"start":3915.93,"end":3916.93,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":3916.93,"end":3918.93,"text":"你過往對在醫療"},{"start":3918.93,"end":3920.93,"text":"還有人權上的貢獻"},{"start":3920.93,"end":3923.93,"text":"所以今天聽到您能夠被提名為"},{"start":3923.93,"end":3925.93,"text":"我們監察院院長提名人"},{"start":3925.93,"end":3927.93,"text":"我本人是非常的"},{"start":3927.93,"end":3929.93,"text":"替臺灣人民高興"},{"start":3929.93,"end":3931.93,"text":"但是還是有幾個議題"},{"start":3931.93,"end":3935.93,"text":"我覺得您是做足了準備"},{"start":3935.93,"end":3937.93,"text":"這個您可以是說"},{"start":3937.93,"end":3938.93,"text":"在歷任院長當中"},{"start":3938.93,"end":3941.93,"text":"你很正式連費監察院這個議題"},{"start":3941.93,"end":3942.93,"text":"你都把它納入"},{"start":3942.93,"end":3944.93,"text":"那你也認為這是一個"},{"start":3944.93,"end":3946.93,"text":"民間的一個聲音"},{"start":3946.93,"end":3948.93,"text":"那所以呢你也認為"},{"start":3948.93,"end":3949.93,"text":"目前該怎麼做"},{"start":3949.93,"end":3951.93,"text":"未來你怎麼準備"},{"start":3951.93,"end":3953.93,"text":"所以你認為現在應該要提升"},{"start":3953.93,"end":3955.93,"text":"辦案的效率跟品質"},{"start":3955.93,"end":3957.93,"text":"才是監察院的改革核心"},{"start":3957.93,"end":3959.93,"text":"但你對於這個"},{"start":3959.93,"end":3962.93,"text":"這樣費經院的準備工作"},{"start":3962.93,"end":3964.93,"text":"你也提到說你的改革第六項"},{"start":3964.93,"end":3967.93,"text":"是要成立這個修憲工作小組"},{"start":3967.93,"end":3971.93,"text":"在這當中如果監察權跟審計權"},{"start":3971.93,"end":3973.93,"text":"應該如何的轉移"},{"start":3973.93,"end":3975.93,"text":"國家人權委員會的定位"},{"start":3975.93,"end":3978.93,"text":"以及在憲法當中採三權的話"},{"start":3978.93,"end":3981.93,"text":"我們這個國會結果跟職能"},{"start":3981.93,"end":3983.93,"text":"如何來調整應應"},{"start":3983.93,"end":3986.93,"text":"所以本席我覺得您都對於"},{"start":3986.93,"end":3988.93,"text":"現在的監察院跟"},{"start":3988.93,"end":3991.93,"text":"以及體察民意要做怎麼樣的"},{"start":3991.93,"end":3992.93,"text":"一個調整的監察院"},{"start":3992.93,"end":3994.93,"text":"我覺得你都做足了準備"},{"start":3994.93,"end":3995.93,"text":"但是呢"},{"start":3995.93,"end":3997.93,"text":"另外一個讓我敬佩的地方"},{"start":3997.93,"end":3999.93,"text":"您的報告當中也提到說"},{"start":3999.93,"end":4003.93,"text":"監察院這六年來109年"},{"start":4003.93,"end":4005.93,"text":"8月到115年來"},{"start":4005.93,"end":4008.93,"text":"受理民眾的懲刑案10萬件"},{"start":4009.87,"end":4012.87,"text":"這個每年受理的案件是"},{"start":4012.87,"end":4014.87,"text":"1萬5000件"},{"start":4014.87,"end":4016.87,"text":"每位的監察委員辦案是"},{"start":4016.87,"end":4017.87,"text":"超過600件"},{"start":4017.87,"end":4019.87,"text":"這表示什麼"},{"start":4019.87,"end":4020.87,"text":"社會是什麼"},{"start":4020.87,"end":4023.87,"text":"冤氣沖天"},{"start":4023.87,"end":4025.87,"text":"所以如果你都能夠體察到"},{"start":4025.87,"end":4028.87,"text":"這樣的一個無助的心聲"},{"start":4028.87,"end":4030.87,"text":"面對強權的壓迫"},{"start":4030.87,"end":4032.87,"text":"不公的審判"},{"start":4032.87,"end":4035.87,"text":"弱勢民眾是求助無門的"},{"start":4035.87,"end":4038.87,"text":"所以本席是認為"},{"start":4038.87,"end":4040.87,"text":"對於你也提到"},{"start":4040.87,"end":4041.87,"text":"你也提到"},{"start":4041.87,"end":4045.87,"text":"我覺得你這個是非常的棒"},{"start":4045.87,"end":4048.87,"text":"你認為在我們調查案當中"},{"start":4048.87,"end":4051.87,"text":"彈劾成案的多位高階公務人員"},{"start":4051.87,"end":4054.87,"text":"甚至不法檢察官跟法官招彈劾"},{"start":4054.87,"end":4058.87,"text":"足見台灣社會對司法不公與行政不法"},{"start":4058.87,"end":4061.87,"text":"確實存有相當的名怨"},{"start":4061.87,"end":4063.87,"text":"而監察院是人民聲援的"},{"start":4063.87,"end":4065.87,"text":"最後的救濟管道"},{"start":4065.87,"end":4067.87,"text":"也是追求社會公益保障"},{"start":4067.87,"end":4069.87,"text":"人權的重要憲政機構"},{"start":4069.87,"end":4072.87,"text":"我想你已經把你對於監察院的期許"},{"start":4072.87,"end":4074.87,"text":"講得很清楚"},{"start":4074.87,"end":4076.87,"text":"所以古代是燃冤生教"},{"start":4076.87,"end":4079.87,"text":"現在的監察院是有這麼多"},{"start":4079.87,"end":4081.87,"text":"平均每年有1.5萬件的陳情案"},{"start":4081.87,"end":4083.87,"text":"而立案之後"},{"start":4083.87,"end":4085.87,"text":"我也要提供給你一個數據"},{"start":4085.87,"end":4088.87,"text":"就是每一年陳案有立案"},{"start":4088.87,"end":4091.87,"text":"還是都有上百件的預期未結"},{"start":4091.87,"end":4094.87,"text":"而這樣的重大的專案的調查"},{"start":4094.87,"end":4096.87,"text":"時程都長達一到兩年"},{"start":4096.87,"end":4099.87,"text":"這讓等候公道的百姓"},{"start":4099.87,"end":4101.87,"text":"其實是備受煎熬的"},{"start":4101.87,"end":4104.87,"text":"所以您當任這樣的一個監察院院長"},{"start":4104.87,"end":4107.87,"text":"說直來是認中道遠苦差事"},{"start":4107.87,"end":4110.87,"text":"但是本席要提出的"},{"start":4110.87,"end":4112.87,"text":"現在的監察院"},{"start":4112.87,"end":4115.87,"text":"有沒有一些憲政上的漢格之處"},{"start":4115.87,"end":4118.87,"text":"第一個所謂的人權漢格"},{"start":4118.87,"end":4120.87,"text":"人權會有倡議權"},{"start":4120.87,"end":4122.87,"text":"但是他們有執行的預算"},{"start":4122.87,"end":4126.87,"text":"行政院有執行的預算跟執行權"},{"start":4126.87,"end":4128.87,"text":"兩者是沒有對接的"},{"start":4128.87,"end":4132.87,"text":"所以形成權責分離疊船駕屋"},{"start":4132.87,"end":4134.87,"text":"所以監察院我再講一次"},{"start":4134.87,"end":4138.87,"text":"監察院有國家人權委員會"},{"start":4138.87,"end":4140.87,"text":"但行政院也有人權處"},{"start":4142.22,"end":4146.22,"text":"衛福部跟勞動部長管弱勢權益"},{"start":4146.22,"end":4148.22,"text":"人權會做的是倡議"},{"start":4148.22,"end":4151.22,"text":"執行權跟預算權卻在行政院"},{"start":4151.22,"end":4152.22,"text":"就會被質疑了"},{"start":4152.22,"end":4154.22,"text":"這樣的疊船駕屋"},{"start":4154.22,"end":4158.22,"text":"我們國家人權委員會還有存在的必要嗎"},{"start":4158.22,"end":4159.22,"text":"你做倡議而已"},{"start":4159.22,"end":4162.22,"text":"這就是人權的漢格之一"},{"start":4162.22,"end":4164.22,"text":"第二個是調查漢格"},{"start":4164.22,"end":4167.22,"text":"我們監察院以廉政署"},{"start":4167.97,"end":4170.97,"text":"其實對現在的公務人員其實也很辛苦"},{"start":4170.97,"end":4173.97,"text":"他要被監督是多方的被監督"},{"start":4173.97,"end":4174.97,"text":"怎麼樣被監督呢"},{"start":4174.97,"end":4176.97,"text":"監察院跟廉政署"},{"start":4176.97,"end":4178.97,"text":"這個是對同一個案子"},{"start":4178.97,"end":4179.97,"text":"會重複發動調查"},{"start":4179.97,"end":4182.97,"text":"造成公務體系的雙重受查"},{"start":4182.97,"end":4184.97,"text":"防衛性的行政"},{"start":4184.97,"end":4186.97,"text":"所以我們現在基層的公務人員"},{"start":4186.97,"end":4189.97,"text":"面臨高度分散的監督機制"},{"start":4189.97,"end":4192.97,"text":"怎麼樣的高度分散呢"},{"start":4192.97,"end":4194.97,"text":"內部有陣風"},{"start":4195.04,"end":4198.04,"text":"法務部的廉政署是行政訴單"},{"start":4198.04,"end":4201.04,"text":"法務部下的檢調是刑事責任"},{"start":4201.04,"end":4205.04,"text":"我們司法院有淺懲戒法院"},{"start":4205.04,"end":4211.04,"text":"我們監察院對公務人員是憲政的糾正跟彈劾"},{"start":4211.04,"end":4214.04,"text":"所以說你對於我們要監督公務人員"},{"start":4214.04,"end":4218.04,"text":"來自這麼多元分散的監督機制"},{"start":4218.04,"end":4220.04,"text":"反而是讓我們的公務人員"},{"start":4220.04,"end":4223.04,"text":"在面對民意的體查跟解決的時候"},{"start":4223.04,"end":4225.04,"text":"他舉足不前了"},{"start":4225.95,"end":4228.95,"text":"動不動我這是不是有圖利、知險"},{"start":4228.95,"end":4230.95,"text":"動不動這個是不是有這個"},{"start":4230.95,"end":4233.95,"text":"他擴大了解釋這個法規"},{"start":4233.95,"end":4236.95,"text":"所以是不是真的能夠解決民怨"},{"start":4236.95,"end":4241.95,"text":"其實也在於這麼多的行政的相關調查"},{"start":4241.95,"end":4242.95,"text":"針對我們公務人員"},{"start":4242.95,"end":4244.95,"text":"是這麼高度的監督機制"},{"start":4244.95,"end":4248.95,"text":"所以你認為你如何釐清跟化解"},{"start":4248.95,"end":4252.95,"text":"這樣人權的漢革跟調查的漢革呢"},{"start":4254.1,"end":4258.1,"text":"國家人權委員會成立是因應國際人權公約"},{"start":4258.1,"end":4263.1,"text":"聯合國的這些人權公約參與的國家"},{"start":4263.1,"end":4268.1,"text":"經常要求因為我們也去簽署了這個人權公約"},{"start":4268.1,"end":4273.1,"text":"所以他就要求台灣應該也要有國際人權委員會國家的"},{"start":4273.1,"end":4276.1,"text":"其實我覺得國家人權委員應該獨立出來"},{"start":4277.35,"end":4280.35,"text":"而且應該給他有實質的功能"},{"start":4280.35,"end":4283.35,"text":"不是只有政策或者是說宣導"},{"start":4283.35,"end":4287.35,"text":"那放在監察院其實我覺得不必要"},{"start":4287.35,"end":4289.35,"text":"他需要是一個獨立機構"},{"start":4289.35,"end":4294.35,"text":"至於監察權跟這些聯政署或者政風單位"},{"start":4294.35,"end":4296.35,"text":"確實有重複的地方"},{"start":4297.33,"end":4300.33,"text":"我覺得如果真的要加強對公務員的監督"},{"start":4300.33,"end":4304.33,"text":"其實不妨考慮可不可以把這些單位合起來"},{"start":4305.05,"end":4308.05,"text":"那如果說將來立法院修法"},{"start":4308.05,"end":4311.05,"text":"可以把這個監察院的職權更集中"},{"start":4311.19,"end":4314.19,"text":"讓這個聯政署或者是政風單位"},{"start":4314.19,"end":4316.19,"text":"也可以到監察院裡頭來"},{"start":4316.19,"end":4318.19,"text":"那對公務員的監督就是"},{"start":4319.17,"end":4321.17,"text":"由監察院充分的去行使"},{"start":4321.17,"end":4325.17,"text":"因為我事實上也覺得監察院現在的這個辦案量"},{"start":4325.17,"end":4326.17,"text":"要要求他們"},{"start":4327.08,"end":4328.08,"text":"其實有點困難"},{"start":4328.77,"end":4329.27,"text":"因為"},{"start":4330.05,"end":4332.05,"text":"一個監察委員那麼多案子"},{"start":4332.05,"end":4335.05,"text":"他能分配到的監察官只有兩個三個"},{"start":4335.89,"end":4337.89,"text":"比一個立法委員的助理還要少"},{"start":4339.07,"end":4341.07,"text":"他們要辦案子都是"},{"start":4341.07,"end":4343.07,"text":"而且他不像檢察官"},{"start":4343.07,"end":4345.07,"text":"檢察官可以搜索"},{"start":4345.07,"end":4346.07,"text":"可以監聽"},{"start":4346.07,"end":4349.07,"text":"可以就是很強行的介入"},{"start":4349.07,"end":4353.07,"text":"監察院是事後才開始展開調查"},{"start":4353.07,"end":4354.07,"text":"那用約詢"},{"start":4354.07,"end":4357.07,"text":"那有的政府官員就不一定理會你"},{"start":4357.07,"end":4359.07,"text":"所以我覺得監察院的功能要加強"},{"start":4359.07,"end":4361.07,"text":"還有很多可以努力的地方"},{"start":4361.07,"end":4362.07,"text":"我覺得非常棒"},{"start":4362.07,"end":4368.07,"text":"這個我非常肯定您剛才有這樣的一個大方向的一個主張"},{"start":4368.07,"end":4370.07,"text":"那其實總統提名"},{"start":4370.07,"end":4374.07,"text":"您也是在推崇美麗島世代對台灣民主的貢獻"},{"start":4374.07,"end":4376.07,"text":"那包括我個人"},{"start":4376.07,"end":4377.07,"text":"作為一個您的晚輩"},{"start":4377.07,"end":4380.07,"text":"那我能夠在這個議事堂上當中"},{"start":4380.07,"end":4382.07,"text":"能夠為人民發聲"},{"start":4382.07,"end":4384.07,"text":"其實也都是在您的這樣"},{"start":4384.07,"end":4388.07,"text":"美麗島世代的這樣的一個前輩之下的倡議"},{"start":4388.07,"end":4389.07,"text":"你們走上街頭"},{"start":4389.07,"end":4391.07,"text":"甚至在追溯黨外的時候"},{"start":4391.07,"end":4395.07,"text":"對於那種真的是威權之下"},{"start":4395.07,"end":4398.07,"text":"威權之下的那種的風聲鶴唳"},{"start":4398.07,"end":4400.07,"text":"那所帶來的家破人亡"},{"start":4400.07,"end":4403.07,"text":"所以我個人是非常肯定的"},{"start":4403.07,"end":4405.07,"text":"那當然對於講到現在"},{"start":4405.07,"end":4408.07,"text":"您身為這樣的被提名人"},{"start":4408.07,"end":4411.07,"text":"這個玉石大夫是風聞驟事"},{"start":4411.07,"end":4413.07,"text":"他可以不需要任何的證據"},{"start":4413.07,"end":4417.07,"text":"就當時古代的封建時代就給了他這個權力"},{"start":4417.07,"end":4421.07,"text":"那在民主時代當然是講求證據的科學辦案"},{"start":4421.07,"end":4424.07,"text":"那監察院除了接受陳情之外"},{"start":4424.07,"end":4426.07,"text":"更應該發揮主動調查"},{"start":4426.07,"end":4430.07,"text":"所以像其實先前我們行政院經貿談判辦公室"},{"start":4430.07,"end":4433.07,"text":"副總代表嚴慧心的職場霸凌案"},{"start":4433.07,"end":4436.07,"text":"就是監察院你們主動調查的"},{"start":4436.07,"end":4441.07,"text":"所以才讓這個真相大白還給當事人公道"},{"start":4441.07,"end":4443.07,"text":"所以今天本席要講的"},{"start":4443.07,"end":4446.07,"text":"其實在面對這麼大的一個陳情案"},{"start":4446.07,"end":4450.07,"text":"每年一點萬件的這樣的一個陳情案"},{"start":4450.07,"end":4453.07,"text":"國人對監察制度是認同跟期待的"},{"start":4454.14,"end":4458.14,"text":"沒有人渴望有堅守公義的當代包青天"},{"start":4458.14,"end":4461.14,"text":"所以本席認為制度本身沒有問題"},{"start":4461.14,"end":4464.14,"text":"重點在於人有沒有風骨"},{"start":4464.14,"end":4467.14,"text":"有沒有苦民所苦的心"},{"start":4467.14,"end":4473.14,"text":"這也就是本席認為社會執意的焦點"},{"start":4473.14,"end":4475.14,"text":"也就是從來不是監察制度"},{"start":4475.14,"end":4479.14,"text":"而是監察委員是否具備足夠的獨立性"},{"start":4479.14,"end":4482.14,"text":"適任性能夠真正做到打老虎"},{"start":4482.14,"end":4484.14,"text":"而不是只有打蒼蠅而已"},{"start":4484.14,"end":4488.14,"text":"所以本席對於您所提出的六項的改革方案"},{"start":4488.14,"end":4491.14,"text":"其中我都非常肯定"},{"start":4491.14,"end":4494.14,"text":"只有第二項我非常的保留"},{"start":4494.14,"end":4498.14,"text":"你說我們要有鼓勵媒體跟公民監督團體"},{"start":4498.14,"end":4501.14,"text":"定期評鑑監察委員的表現"},{"start":4501.14,"end":4502.14,"text":"到這邊我認同"},{"start":4502.14,"end":4504.14,"text":"到後面我保留"},{"start":4504.14,"end":4507.14,"text":"就是立法院已有公督盟的公民制制度"},{"start":4507.14,"end":4509.14,"text":"你認為可以導入"},{"start":4509.14,"end":4513.14,"text":"我們現在的公督盟已經流於形式化了"},{"start":4518.7,"end":4520.7,"text":"好 謝謝林委員"},{"start":4521.25,"end":4524.25,"text":"下一位我們請林佩祥委員詢問"},{"start":4537.77,"end":4539.77,"text":"好 主席 各位同仁"},{"start":4539.77,"end":4542.77,"text":"有請陳永新備題名人"},{"start":4548.86,"end":4549.86,"text":"陳教授好"},{"start":4549.86,"end":4552.86,"text":"今天是監察院人士同意權的審查"},{"start":4552.86,"end":4555.86,"text":"本席在這邊先要講這不是顏色的審查"},{"start":4555.86,"end":4558.86,"text":"也不是要考驗您的政治忠誠度"},{"start":4558.86,"end":4561.86,"text":"今天國會真正要審查這三件事"},{"start":4561.86,"end":4564.86,"text":"第一件 你有沒有資格 有沒有能力"},{"start":4564.86,"end":4568.86,"text":"更重要的 有沒有勇氣擔任中華民國的監察院院長"},{"start":4568.86,"end":4571.86,"text":"因為人民花錢養監察院"},{"start":4571.86,"end":4575.86,"text":"不是請大家進去喝茶 看報 寫報告"},{"start":4575.86,"end":4578.86,"text":"監察院不是監主茶葉院"},{"start":4578.86,"end":4580.86,"text":"院長更不能只是泡茶院長"},{"start":4580.86,"end":4584.86,"text":"人民要的是一個敢監督政府 敢追究責任"},{"start":4584.86,"end":4587.86,"text":"敢得罪權力的監察院"},{"start":4587.86,"end":4591.86,"text":"請問陳題名人 您在書面答覆裡面有說"},{"start":4591.86,"end":4593.86,"text":"外界認為監察院沒有功能"},{"start":4593.86,"end":4596.86,"text":"有一部分可能是資訊落差"},{"start":4596.86,"end":4597.86,"text":"您還列出數字"},{"start":4597.86,"end":4601.86,"text":"從109年8月到115年5月"},{"start":4601.86,"end":4604.86,"text":"監察院受理人民懲刑近10萬件"},{"start":4604.86,"end":4609.86,"text":"彈劾227人 糾正520件 罕請1300件"},{"start":4609.86,"end":4611.86,"text":"換句話說 您的意思是"},{"start":4611.86,"end":4614.86,"text":"監察院不是沒有做事 是做了很多"},{"start":4614.86,"end":4615.86,"text":"只是人民不知道"},{"start":4615.86,"end":4617.86,"text":"但是我就想請問"},{"start":4617.86,"end":4621.86,"text":"如果有一家公司每天跟股東說"},{"start":4621.86,"end":4625.86,"text":"我們績效真的很好 只是你們都感覺不到"},{"start":4625.86,"end":4628.86,"text":"那到底問題是出在股東還是公司"},{"start":4628.86,"end":4630.86,"text":"另外一個很值得思考的就是"},{"start":4630.86,"end":4634.86,"text":"前院長陳菊長時間請假超過一年"},{"start":4634.86,"end":4636.86,"text":"我們在這邊不是評論她"},{"start":4636.86,"end":4639.86,"text":"因為健康因素請假的對錯"},{"start":4639.86,"end":4643.86,"text":"我要問的是一個憲政機關首長"},{"start":4643.86,"end":4645.86,"text":"長期無法主持任務"},{"start":4645.86,"end":4649.86,"text":"社會卻沒有感受到國家的監督機制"},{"start":4649.86,"end":4651.86,"text":"受到重大影響"},{"start":4651.86,"end":4653.86,"text":"難道這不是一個警訊嗎"},{"start":4653.86,"end":4656.86,"text":"如果今天行政院長一年沒上班"},{"start":4656.86,"end":4657.86,"text":"大家一定會知道"},{"start":4657.86,"end":4659.86,"text":"如果今天立法院長一年"},{"start":4659.86,"end":4662.86,"text":"不主持院會 大家也一定知道"},{"start":4662.86,"end":4664.86,"text":"但是監察院院長長期請假"},{"start":4664.86,"end":4666.86,"text":"很多人民甚至沒有感覺"},{"start":4666.86,"end":4668.86,"text":"所以我想就教您"},{"start":4668.86,"end":4670.86,"text":"到底是人民不了解監察院"},{"start":4670.86,"end":4673.86,"text":"還是監察院已經離人民太遠"},{"start":4675.47,"end":4678.47,"text":"我不是說監察院已經做得很好"},{"start":4679.35,"end":4682.35,"text":"我是說監察院確實也辦了一些"},{"start":4682.35,"end":4685.35,"text":"很值得我們肯定的案子"},{"start":4685.35,"end":4687.35,"text":"比如我有看到"},{"start":4687.35,"end":4690.35,"text":"南投有一個國中的校長"},{"start":4690.35,"end":4693.35,"text":"他性侵了四十幾個學童"},{"start":4693.35,"end":4696.35,"text":"監察院不但彈劾糾舉他"},{"start":4696.35,"end":4698.35,"text":"還把包庇他的教育局"},{"start":4698.35,"end":4700.35,"text":"甚至縣政府的官員"},{"start":4700.35,"end":4702.35,"text":"也都同時給予懲戒"},{"start":4702.35,"end":4705.35,"text":"所以我覺得他們有在做事情"},{"start":4705.35,"end":4706.35,"text":"但是呢"},{"start":4706.97,"end":4707.97,"text":"就是"},{"start":4708.76,"end":4710.76,"text":"我覺得他們有時候做事情"},{"start":4710.76,"end":4711.76,"text":"民眾不知道"},{"start":4711.76,"end":4713.76,"text":"我們應該直接講到最重要的地方"},{"start":4713.76,"end":4717.76,"text":"今天的監察院有什麼不可取代的價值"},{"start":4717.76,"end":4719.76,"text":"為什麼值得繼續存在呢"},{"start":4721.67,"end":4723.67,"text":"在我們的憲法裡頭"},{"start":4723.9,"end":4726.9,"text":"對於行政官員的糾舉彈劾"},{"start":4726.9,"end":4728.9,"text":"這是只有監察院能做的事"},{"start":4730.4,"end":4733.4,"text":"當然如果犯罪事實明顯"},{"start":4733.4,"end":4736.4,"text":"我想司法機構也是可以去追究責任"},{"start":4736.4,"end":4738.4,"text":"但是這是從行政方面"},{"start":4738.4,"end":4740.4,"text":"去懲戒公務人員"},{"start":4740.4,"end":4742.4,"text":"然後給予警惕"},{"start":4742.4,"end":4744.4,"text":"另外因為國家人權委員會"},{"start":4744.4,"end":4746.4,"text":"是一個新的機構"},{"start":4746.18,"end":4748.18,"text":"沒有這個國家人權委員會的話"},{"start":4749.31,"end":4752.31,"text":"事實上我們跟不上國際的人權的潮流"},{"start":4752.31,"end":4754.31,"text":"所以就是因為國家人權委員會"},{"start":4754.31,"end":4756.31,"text":"跟憲法的規定"},{"start":4756.31,"end":4758.31,"text":"再接下來不好意思"},{"start":4758.31,"end":4759.31,"text":"我們時間有限"},{"start":4759.31,"end":4760.31,"text":"我想繼續請問下去"},{"start":4760.31,"end":4762.31,"text":"你剛剛提到說"},{"start":4762.31,"end":4765.31,"text":"如果院長真的生病請假"},{"start":4765.31,"end":4767.31,"text":"我也不會做這種事情"},{"start":4767.31,"end":4769.31,"text":"我希望不要發生這種事情"},{"start":4769.31,"end":4771.31,"text":"如果我的身體不好"},{"start":4771.31,"end":4773.31,"text":"我就會自動辭職的"},{"start":4773.31,"end":4776.31,"text":"監察院院長不是一般的行政職務"},{"start":4776.31,"end":4781.31,"text":"您要領導的是依據中華民國憲法設置的最高監察機關"},{"start":4781.31,"end":4785.31,"text":"但是您過去曾經在2017年將近10年前"},{"start":4785.31,"end":4788.31,"text":"9月23號在前民主運動人士"},{"start":4788.31,"end":4790.31,"text":"魏廷潮的回憶錄"},{"start":4790.31,"end":4793.31,"text":"毒鬼的後代的新書發表會裡面"},{"start":4793.31,"end":4795.31,"text":"公然致詞表示"},{"start":4795.31,"end":4797.31,"text":"如果民進黨不敢顛覆中華民國"},{"start":4797.31,"end":4800.31,"text":"毒派就要顛覆這個不長進的民進黨"},{"start":4800.31,"end":4803.31,"text":"所以我在這邊也要很直接請教您"},{"start":4804.36,"end":4805.36,"text":"陳永新先生"},{"start":4805.36,"end":4810.36,"text":"您現在認不認同中華民國現行的憲政體系"},{"start":4811.43,"end":4813.43,"text":"我想當時這是一個"},{"start":4816.58,"end":4819.58,"text":"魏廷潮先生講了一個笑話"},{"start":4819.58,"end":4821.58,"text":"他說他爸爸把他取名魏廷潮"},{"start":4821.58,"end":4824.58,"text":"就是要顛覆朝廷"},{"start":4824.58,"end":4827.58,"text":"就是他這個名字廷潮是這樣"},{"start":4827.58,"end":4828.58,"text":"因為他講了這個笑話"},{"start":4828.58,"end":4830.58,"text":"所以我才有下面那一段"},{"start":4830.58,"end":4832.58,"text":"所以您的答案是認同囉"},{"start":4832.58,"end":4835.58,"text":"不認同現行的中華民國憲政體系嗎"},{"start":4836.88,"end":4838.88,"text":"目前的憲政體系"},{"start":4838.87,"end":4839.87,"text":"我剛剛已經說明了"},{"start":4839.87,"end":4843.87,"text":"就是中華民國經過幾十年來的蛻變"},{"start":4843.87,"end":4846.87,"text":"現在已經是一個民主自由的國家"},{"start":4846.87,"end":4849.87,"text":"而且他跟台灣已經緊密的結合了"},{"start":4849.87,"end":4851.87,"text":"所以我如果當監察院長"},{"start":4851.87,"end":4854.87,"text":"我當然是依中華民國憲法的憲事主權"},{"start":4854.87,"end":4858.87,"text":"您是否願意在國會殿堂正式明確承諾"},{"start":4858.87,"end":4861.87,"text":"過去的政治主張歸政治主張"},{"start":4861.87,"end":4864.87,"text":"但是只要擔任監察院院長一天"},{"start":4864.87,"end":4867.87,"text":"就會以維護現行中華民國憲政秩序"},{"start":4867.87,"end":4869.87,"text":"遵守中華民國憲法"},{"start":4869.87,"end":4871.87,"text":"依法獨立行使監察權"},{"start":4871.87,"end":4872.87,"text":"作為最高原則呢"},{"start":4874.41,"end":4877.41,"text":"做監察院長當然是依法行使職權"},{"start":4877.41,"end":4878.41,"text":"依中華民國憲法"},{"start":4879.81,"end":4880.81,"text":"這不是問題"},{"start":4880.81,"end":4882.81,"text":"我今天不是問你愛不愛中華民國"},{"start":4882.81,"end":4886.81,"text":"我是問你說未來遵不遵守中華民國憲法"},{"start":4886.81,"end":4889.81,"text":"因為政治理念可以有藍有綠有白"},{"start":4889.81,"end":4892.81,"text":"但是監察院長依法辦案"},{"start":4892.81,"end":4893.81,"text":"這不能有顏色的嗎"},{"start":4893.81,"end":4895.81,"text":"沒有顏色當然"},{"start":4895.81,"end":4898.81,"text":"監察院最核心的功能就是監督政府"},{"start":4898.81,"end":4900.81,"text":"那卓榮泰院長"},{"start":4901.27,"end":4905.27,"text":"對於立法院三讀通過的法律採取不附屬"},{"start":4905.27,"end":4908.27,"text":"引發重大的憲政爭議"},{"start":4908.27,"end":4911.27,"text":"過去也有人向監察院陳情"},{"start":4911.27,"end":4913.27,"text":"要求調查相關責任"},{"start":4913.27,"end":4914.27,"text":"最後面立法院"},{"start":4914.27,"end":4917.27,"text":"最後面監察院不予以立案"},{"start":4917.27,"end":4920.27,"text":"而您在書面答覆裡面認為說"},{"start":4920.27,"end":4923.27,"text":"不附屬到底是行政院長的權利還是義務"},{"start":4923.27,"end":4925.27,"text":"法界存在的爭議"},{"start":4925.27,"end":4928.27,"text":"應該由憲法法庭做出權威的解釋"},{"start":4928.27,"end":4931.27,"text":"監察院不宜進行判斷"},{"start":4931.27,"end":4933.27,"text":"我尊重您的法律意見"},{"start":4933.27,"end":4934.27,"text":"但是我也要問您一句"},{"start":4935.63,"end":4937.63,"text":"監察院不能判斷違憲"},{"start":4937.63,"end":4941.63,"text":"是不是就等於監察院不能調查違法失職"},{"start":4941.63,"end":4943.63,"text":"這是兩件不同的事情吧"},{"start":4944.83,"end":4946.83,"text":"不然以後如果遇到重大的案件"},{"start":4946.83,"end":4949.83,"text":"監察院就說這個有憲政建議"},{"start":4949.83,"end":4951.83,"text":"那這個有憲政爭議的時候"},{"start":4951.83,"end":4954.83,"text":"就請憲法法庭來去處理"},{"start":4954.83,"end":4957.83,"text":"那麼監察院不就變成憲法法庭的轉接台"},{"start":4957.83,"end":4958.83,"text":"更重要的是"},{"start":4958.83,"end":4961.83,"text":"人民不滿的不只是不立案"},{"start":4961.83,"end":4963.83,"text":"人民要問的是為什麼不立案"},{"start":4964.84,"end":4967.84,"text":"您自己也在書面答覆中承諾"},{"start":4967.84,"end":4972.84,"text":"未來監察院應該每兩個月都召開記者會"},{"start":4972.84,"end":4975.84,"text":"重大案件有具體的進展"},{"start":4975.84,"end":4978.84,"text":"那也應該要跟社會來去公佈"},{"start":4978.84,"end":4982.84,"text":"那我今天就能夠再要求您再進一步"},{"start":4982.84,"end":4984.84,"text":"您願不願意在國會殿堂"},{"start":4984.84,"end":4988.84,"text":"來去承諾說建立所謂重大案件"},{"start":4988.84,"end":4989.84,"text":"立案"},{"start":4990.14,"end":4992.14,"text":"不立案不立案"},{"start":4992.14,"end":4994.14,"text":"有理由透明化的制度"},{"start":4994.14,"end":4996.14,"text":"讓人民知道為什麼不查"},{"start":4996.68,"end":4997.68,"text":"好"},{"start":4997.63,"end":4999.63,"text":"我們依照憲政的原理"},{"start":5000.53,"end":5002.53,"text":"立法院跟行政院之間"},{"start":5002.53,"end":5004.53,"text":"如果有看法不同的時候"},{"start":5004.53,"end":5006.53,"text":"憲政的爭議本來就是由"},{"start":5006.53,"end":5008.53,"text":"司法院大法官的會議"},{"start":5008.53,"end":5011.53,"text":"或者憲法法庭來做裁決"},{"start":5011.53,"end":5013.53,"text":"所以監察院依照憲法"},{"start":5013.53,"end":5015.53,"text":"沒有這樣的解釋的權利"},{"start":5015.53,"end":5018.53,"text":"但是你說如果是一個行政院長"},{"start":5018.53,"end":5020.53,"text":"他真的有違法失職"},{"start":5020.53,"end":5022.53,"text":"那我們當然要立案調查"},{"start":5022.53,"end":5024.53,"text":"甚至也可以給予彈劾"},{"start":5024.53,"end":5026.53,"text":"所以我覺得"},{"start":5027.55,"end":5030.55,"text":"憲政的爭議可能是一個政治問題"},{"start":5030.55,"end":5032.55,"text":"但是如果是"},{"start":5033.2,"end":5035.2,"text":"政府官員真的有貪瀆"},{"start":5035.2,"end":5037.2,"text":"有他的行政的重大疏失"},{"start":5037.2,"end":5039.2,"text":"那我們當然是要調查"},{"start":5039.2,"end":5040.2,"text":"那我贊同"},{"start":5041.37,"end":5043.37,"text":"如果重大的案子"},{"start":5043.37,"end":5044.37,"text":"我們即使不成案"},{"start":5044.37,"end":5046.37,"text":"也要說明我們的理由"},{"start":5046.37,"end":5047.37,"text":"因為我們希望是"},{"start":5047.37,"end":5049.37,"text":"監察院將來是透明化的一個機構"},{"start":5049.37,"end":5050.37,"text":"好"},{"start":5050.37,"end":5052.37,"text":"那未來如果被檢舉是"},{"start":5052.37,"end":5053.37,"text":"行政院長 部長"},{"start":5053.37,"end":5055.37,"text":"甚至總統府高層"},{"start":5055.37,"end":5058.37,"text":"只要有具體的違法失職施政"},{"start":5058.37,"end":5059.37,"text":"陳永興院長提名人"},{"start":5059.37,"end":5061.37,"text":"你敢不敢查"},{"start":5061.4,"end":5064.4,"text":"即使總統有了具體的違法失職也照調查"},{"start":5065.96,"end":5066.96,"text":"照脫核啊"},{"start":5066.96,"end":5068.96,"text":"就是要有具體施政"},{"start":5068.96,"end":5071.96,"text":"因為人民最怕的不是說監察院沒有牙齒"},{"start":5071.96,"end":5074.96,"text":"而是說看到有些人牙齒就變得特別硬"},{"start":5074.96,"end":5077.96,"text":"看到有些人就忽然變成改代駕牙"},{"start":5077.96,"end":5079.96,"text":"這是目前許多民眾心中"},{"start":5079.96,"end":5083.96,"text":"看到監察院目前作為他們的第一時間的感受"},{"start":5083.96,"end":5085.96,"text":"我剛剛報告的時候提到"},{"start":5085.96,"end":5088.96,"text":"我在衛生局長任內被黑道圍殺"},{"start":5089.55,"end":5092.55,"text":"不罰廠商 甚至明代官說我都不懼怕"},{"start":5092.55,"end":5097.55,"text":"所以我的性格就是好打不平"},{"start":5098.61,"end":5099.61,"text":"好 極右如仇"},{"start":5099.61,"end":5103.61,"text":"那如果今天陳教授您被提名"},{"start":5103.61,"end":5106.61,"text":"立法院也同意您擔任監察院院長"},{"start":5106.61,"end":5107.61,"text":"請你告訴我們"},{"start":5107.61,"end":5110.61,"text":"你上任第一件事要改革的是什麼"},{"start":5111.4,"end":5113.4,"text":"請不要回答說什麼提升效率強化監督"},{"start":5113.4,"end":5115.4,"text":"保障人權依法行政"},{"start":5115.4,"end":5117.4,"text":"這些每一個提名人都曾經講過"},{"start":5117.4,"end":5119.4,"text":"也每一個未來提名人都會講"},{"start":5119.4,"end":5121.4,"text":"我要的是具體承諾"},{"start":5121.4,"end":5123.4,"text":"第一 重大案件立案"},{"start":5123.4,"end":5125.4,"text":"不立案理由要不要透明"},{"start":5125.4,"end":5127.4,"text":"第二 重大公共利益案件"},{"start":5127.4,"end":5130.4,"text":"要不要優先調查現期處理"},{"start":5130.4,"end":5133.4,"text":"第三 糾正彈劾之後"},{"start":5133.4,"end":5135.4,"text":"要不要持續公開追蹤"},{"start":5135.4,"end":5137.4,"text":"第四 您剛剛自己承諾"},{"start":5137.4,"end":5140.4,"text":"希望說未來每兩個月"},{"start":5140.4,"end":5143.4,"text":"向人民公開說明重大案件進度"},{"start":5143.4,"end":5144.4,"text":"會不會算數"},{"start":5145.93,"end":5147.93,"text":"我剛剛六大改革我都會做"},{"start":5149.99,"end":5151.99,"text":"好 其實"},{"start":5152.68,"end":5154.68,"text":"時間到了 真可惜"},{"start":5156.54,"end":5158.54,"text":"好 謝謝林委員"},{"start":5159.93,"end":5163.93,"text":"下一位我們請林靜憲委員詢問"},{"start":5177.47,"end":5179.47,"text":"好 感謝主席"},{"start":5179.47,"end":5181.47,"text":"本席邀請被提名人陳永新醫師"},{"start":5182.83,"end":5184.83,"text":"陳被提名人被選"},{"start":5188.82,"end":5190.82,"text":"好 答應書你很好"},{"start":5191.51,"end":5193.51,"text":"辛苦"},{"start":5194.27,"end":5196.27,"text":"也配合你的勇氣"},{"start":5196.27,"end":5199.27,"text":"你來接受被被提名做"},{"start":5199.27,"end":5200.27,"text":"感謝他們的議長"},{"start":5201.34,"end":5203.34,"text":"不過我幾個問題也是要來跟你請教"},{"start":5203.34,"end":5204.34,"text":"有什麼"},{"start":5204.34,"end":5207.34,"text":"在財亞黨 國民黨 民眾黨"},{"start":5207.34,"end":5209.34,"text":"都在說費毒 敢參與"},{"start":5210.78,"end":5212.78,"text":"好 謝謝大家"},{"start":5212.4,"end":5214.4,"text":"費毒敢參與"},{"start":5214.07,"end":5216.07,"text":"只要大家有勇氣我們就要來受"},{"start":5216.67,"end":5218.67,"text":"天天在財亞黨"},{"start":5218.81,"end":5220.81,"text":"其實民進黨最早拿出來的"},{"start":5220.81,"end":5221.81,"text":"費毒敢參與"},{"start":5221.81,"end":5222.81,"text":"就是我們民進黨"},{"start":5223.55,"end":5225.55,"text":"但只有民進黨有實際的作為"},{"start":5226.96,"end":5228.96,"text":"民進黨要拿出來正式的修正案"},{"start":5230.44,"end":5232.44,"text":"來費毒敢參與"},{"start":5232.78,"end":5233.78,"text":"還有民進黨嗎"},{"start":5234.79,"end":5236.79,"text":"我看很久了 共產黨主席"},{"start":5238.87,"end":5239.87,"text":"你剛剛會被嚇到嗎"},{"start":5240.78,"end":5242.78,"text":"不是他的優先課題"},{"start":5243.99,"end":5245.99,"text":"因為連講完就要費感參與"},{"start":5247.57,"end":5249.57,"text":"結果國民黨的黨主席"},{"start":5249.57,"end":5253.57,"text":"他說會監察院修憲門檻太高"},{"start":5253.57,"end":5255.57,"text":"不是國民黨優先議題"},{"start":5255.57,"end":5257.57,"text":"這共產黨主席說的"},{"start":5258.85,"end":5260.85,"text":"所以我覺得"},{"start":5260.37,"end":5262.37,"text":"費毒敢參與"},{"start":5264.07,"end":5266.07,"text":"我認為這是一個假議題"},{"start":5266.07,"end":5268.07,"text":"對財亞黨來說"},{"start":5268.07,"end":5270.07,"text":"說不定會做"},{"start":5270.95,"end":5272.95,"text":"這五權憲法"},{"start":5272.95,"end":5274.95,"text":"是國民黨的新主牌"},{"start":5275.14,"end":5278.14,"text":"這順門下的五權憲法"},{"start":5279.16,"end":5281.16,"text":"現在給他費毒"},{"start":5281.16,"end":5283.16,"text":"他就不是五權憲法"},{"start":5283.16,"end":5285.16,"text":"你如果要費感參與"},{"start":5285.16,"end":5286.16,"text":"他也要費掉"},{"start":5287.02,"end":5289.02,"text":"才能回歸到三權分立"},{"start":5290.83,"end":5292.83,"text":"共產黨就不可能做這件事"},{"start":5293.35,"end":5295.35,"text":"但是今天拿出費感參與"},{"start":5295.81,"end":5297.81,"text":"一隻一豬咬的被歡對"},{"start":5297.97,"end":5299.97,"text":"這麼敢問他的連算"},{"start":5301.53,"end":5303.53,"text":"後面費監察院"},{"start":5304.05,"end":5306.05,"text":"所以我認為這次的提名"},{"start":5307.42,"end":5309.42,"text":"我比較悲觀"},{"start":5309.21,"end":5311.21,"text":"我不知道你屬性"},{"start":5312.11,"end":5314.11,"text":"了解林馬隊"},{"start":5314.02,"end":5316.02,"text":"要過的機會喔"},{"start":5316.84,"end":5318.84,"text":"哈哈"},{"start":5318.15,"end":5320.15,"text":"其實這二十幾個幹部"},{"start":5320.15,"end":5322.15,"text":"沒一個好的"},{"start":5322.15,"end":5324.15,"text":"我看這二十幾位被提名的"},{"start":5324.38,"end":5326.38,"text":"很多人的學經歷"},{"start":5326.79,"end":5329.36,"text":"老鼠咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪咪"},{"start":5330.03,"end":5331.03,"text":"扁多里圓啊"},{"start":5332.02,"end":5333.22,"text":"但要通過的機會啊"},{"start":5334.25,"end":5335.45,"text":"我是比較悲觀"},{"start":5336.02,"end":5337.02,"text":"因為在這兒"},{"start":5337.22,"end":5338.820000000001,"text":"也會黨進黨出啦"},{"start":5339.120000000001,"end":5340.120000000001,"text":"一致性投票"},{"start":5342.94,"end":5344.94,"text":"所以要給你們費毒"},{"start":5344.94,"end":5346.339999999999,"text":"啊 找不到理由啊"},{"start":5346.339999999999,"end":5349.339999999999,"text":"所以政府會監察院是要反對"},{"start":5349.63,"end":5351.43,"text":"監委被提名人"},{"start":5351.94,"end":5353.94,"text":"要全部封殺的一個理由"},{"start":5353.94,"end":5356.54,"text":"這是我個人比較擔心啊"},{"start":5356.94,"end":5359.139999999999,"text":"我跟民間的看法"},{"start":5360.19,"end":5361.589999999999,"text":"這就是政敵投票"},{"start":5363.85,"end":5365.650000000001,"text":"他都讓他輸你那個看法是怎樣"},{"start":5367.24,"end":5370.84,"text":"我們以前就一直主張制憲"},{"start":5371.639999999999,"end":5373.84,"text":"希望台灣是三權分立"},{"start":5374.599999999999,"end":5376.799999999999,"text":"對一個進步的民主國家"},{"start":5377.2,"end":5380.2,"text":"所以費足監察院我並不反對"},{"start":5380.89,"end":5383.09,"text":"但是就像林委員剛剛講的"},{"start":5383.29,"end":5387.09,"text":"如果沒有具體的修憲方案的內容"},{"start":5387.490000000001,"end":5388.6900000000005,"text":"只是一句話"},{"start":5388.6900000000005,"end":5391.29,"text":"說費監察院這是不負責任的做法"},{"start":5391.6900000000005,"end":5393.6900000000005,"text":"但是你講的重點"},{"start":5393.6900000000005,"end":5396.29,"text":"他現在還沒收現以前"},{"start":5397.09,"end":5399.6900000000005,"text":"他還要再是一個憲政機關"},{"start":5399.990000000001,"end":5400.79,"text":"那不對了"},{"start":5400.79,"end":5402.490000000001,"text":"如果說他把它凍結了"},{"start":5402.6900000000005,"end":5403.89,"text":"甚至讓他癱瘓"},{"start":5403.89,"end":5404.6900000000005,"text":"把他癱瘓了"},{"start":5404.6900000000005,"end":5405.6900000000005,"text":"這個不對"},{"start":5405.79,"end":5407.1900000000005,"text":"因為我剛剛也舉例了"},{"start":5407.1900000000005,"end":5409.6900000000005,"text":"我說你說台灣治安不好"},{"start":5409.889999999999,"end":5411.49,"text":"難道要廢警政署嗎"},{"start":5412.889999999999,"end":5415.29,"text":"我們用部立醫院這個服務不好"},{"start":5415.29,"end":5416.49,"text":"那把醫院關掉"},{"start":5416.69,"end":5417.69,"text":"不是這樣子"},{"start":5417.889999999999,"end":5421.089999999999,"text":"如果這樣子台灣民眾覺得立法院表現不好"},{"start":5421.29,"end":5422.69,"text":"難道要廢立法院嗎"},{"start":5423.089999999999,"end":5424.69,"text":"所以不是這樣子做"},{"start":5425.089999999999,"end":5426.889999999999,"text":"第一個要把它好好做"},{"start":5427.089999999999,"end":5427.889999999999,"text":"改革他嘛"},{"start":5428.089999999999,"end":5428.589999999999,"text":"對啦"},{"start":5428.889999999999,"end":5430.089999999999,"text":"我同意你的講法"},{"start":5430.589999999999,"end":5431.69,"text":"但是我實在來說"},{"start":5432.19,"end":5435.089999999999,"text":"你把鑑贊於貪犯動這個政敵道歉"},{"start":5435.589999999999,"end":5437.089999999999,"text":"誰受傷最重"},{"start":5438.19,"end":5438.889999999999,"text":"我們的民眾"},{"start":5439.530000000001,"end":5442.030000000001,"text":"我鑑贊於監察院"},{"start":5442.33,"end":5443.2300000000005,"text":"大概一年"},{"start":5443.530000000001,"end":5445.030000000001,"text":"辦理人民懲情案"},{"start":5445.69,"end":5448.49,"text":"我看最近這五年"},{"start":5448.49,"end":5450.19,"text":"總共有七萬五千幾件"},{"start":5451.36,"end":5452.96,"text":"每年都一萬五千件"},{"start":5452.96,"end":5454.259999999999,"text":"每一年都一萬五千幾"},{"start":5454.259999999999,"end":5455.36,"text":"我寫在那裡"},{"start":5455.5599999999995,"end":5456.5599999999995,"text":"一年比較多"},{"start":5456.66,"end":5458.5599999999995,"text":"2024年有一萬六千幾件"},{"start":5461.79,"end":5462.99,"text":"都是人民懲情案"},{"start":5463.95,"end":5465.65,"text":"政府機關主動醫生"},{"start":5465.65,"end":5467.15,"text":"現在還減四趴"},{"start":5467.83,"end":5468.83,"text":"所以你把它廢除"},{"start":5469.57,"end":5470.969999999999,"text":"那等於人民最後"},{"start":5471.2699999999995,"end":5472.969999999999,"text":"在司法管道以外"},{"start":5473.2699999999995,"end":5476.469999999999,"text":"他最後可以受到鑑贊於這邊"},{"start":5477.45,"end":5479.849999999999,"text":"對一些機關人民如果認為"},{"start":5480.15,"end":5481.65,"text":"以違法行政"},{"start":5484.780000000001,"end":5486.280000000001,"text":"你看受害最大的"},{"start":5486.4800000000005,"end":5487.280000000001,"text":"其實是民眾"},{"start":5487.4800000000005,"end":5487.9800000000005,"text":"沒有錯"},{"start":5487.9800000000005,"end":5488.9800000000005,"text":"我就說他"},{"start":5488.9800000000005,"end":5491.08,"text":"就失去了深淵的地方"},{"start":5491.08,"end":5492.280000000001,"text":"也很好笑"},{"start":5492.780000000001,"end":5494.88,"text":"在宅男棟要鑑贊於沒有作為"},{"start":5495.38,"end":5496.68,"text":"說鑑贊於不好"},{"start":5496.68,"end":5497.88,"text":"說鑑贊於沒公平"},{"start":5498.08,"end":5498.58,"text":"但是"},{"start":5499.320000000001,"end":5500.42,"text":"這兩百兩黨"},{"start":5500.72,"end":5503.52,"text":"時不時不惜地拿鑑贊的撥卡拿出來說"},{"start":5504.4400000000005,"end":5505.34,"text":"我拿給你看"},{"start":5505.64,"end":5506.84,"text":"他們也會心疼似的"},{"start":5506.84,"end":5507.84,"text":"辦公廳不好"},{"start":5509.28,"end":5510.78,"text":"他說有五大缺失"},{"start":5511.679999999999,"end":5512.679999999999,"text":"國民黨引用"},{"start":5512.679999999999,"end":5514.179999999999,"text":"民眾黨的引用就是"},{"start":5514.68,"end":5516.08,"text":"監察院的調查報告"},{"start":5516.94,"end":5519.44,"text":"你說外交部有洩密案"},{"start":5520.700000000001,"end":5521.900000000001,"text":"在野黨引用的"},{"start":5522.1,"end":5523.6,"text":"也是我們監察院的報告"},{"start":5524.43,"end":5524.93,"text":"表示"},{"start":5525.13,"end":5526.63,"text":"鑑贊於你的調查報告"},{"start":5527.07,"end":5528.17,"text":"其實有很多"},{"start":5528.469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婚姻長"},{"start":5670.049999999999,"end":5671.049999999999,"text":"做監委的人"},{"start":5671.45,"end":5672.95,"text":"你要怎麼來"},{"start":5673.25,"end":5673.75,"text":"第一"},{"start":5673.95,"end":5676.15,"text":"改善民眾對監察院的印象"},{"start":5676.45,"end":5678.25,"text":"聽到你就有很狡猾的做法"},{"start":5678.25,"end":5679.95,"text":"你說要讓各位可以變記者會"},{"start":5680.049999999999,"end":5681.849999999999,"text":"讓民眾了解說明"},{"start":5681.95,"end":5682.95,"text":"檢查院做什麼"},{"start":5683.799999999999,"end":5684.4,"text":"還是說"},{"start":5684.599999999999,"end":5685.4,"text":"要怎麼"},{"start":5685.98,"end":5687.58,"text":"來改善監察院的"},{"start":5688.98,"end":5691.48,"text":"讓民眾過去民眾的一些民怨"},{"start":5691.58,"end":5692.78,"text":"對咱部官員收宅"},{"start":5693.77,"end":5694.070000000001,"text":"對"},{"start":5694.92,"end":5696.0199999999995,"text":"對調查員有什麼關係"},{"start":5696.219999999999,"end":5696.82,"text":"有什麼保障的嗎"},{"start":5698.63,"end":5700.33,"text":"我一直覺得那個"},{"start":5700.7300000000005,"end":5703.33,"text":"調查官或者調查人員的那個"},{"start":5703.7300000000005,"end":5704.43,"text":"數值"},{"start":5705.13,"end":5706.63,"text":"跟人力要提升"},{"start":5707.43,"end":5709.43,"text":"因為監察委員只有二十幾個"},{"start":5709.7300000000005,"end":5711.03,"text":"又有七個"},{"start":5711.13,"end":5712.93,"text":"在國家人權委員會"},{"start":5713.13,"end":5714.93,"text":"所以實際能辦案的人"},{"start":5715.2300000000005,"end":5718.53,"text":"他需要這些調查官跟調查人員的協助"},{"start":5718.93,"end":5720.83,"text":"所以如果他們的素質高"},{"start":5721.2300000000005,"end":5722.03,"text":"能力夠"},{"start":5722.33,"end":5724.7300000000005,"text":"可以再多辦很多的案子"},{"start":5724.93,"end":5726.2300000000005,"text":"這個是一個重點"},{"start":5726.43,"end":5727.43,"text":"第二個我想"},{"start":5727.83,"end":5729.530000000001,"text":"就是民間的團體"},{"start":5729.530000000001,"end":5731.63,"text":"或者民間的力量要引入"},{"start":5732.2300000000005,"end":5733.93,"text":"檢察院也可以跟"},{"start":5734.53,"end":5736.13,"text":"行政單位的某一些"},{"start":5736.13,"end":5736.83,"text":"像剛剛講"},{"start":5736.83,"end":5738.83,"text":"政風機構聯政署合作"},{"start":5739.03,"end":5741.7300000000005,"text":"也可以跟立法院在質詢的時候"},{"start":5741.93,"end":5743.63,"text":"所提出來的一些弊案"},{"start":5744.03,"end":5745.53,"text":"去做主動的調查"},{"start":5745.63,"end":5747.03,"text":"這個都是可以努力的"},{"start":5747.77,"end":5751.27,"text":"其實你看你一年都被罵六次"},{"start":5751.570000000001,"end":5753.27,"text":"依照監察院目前"},{"start":5753.570000000001,"end":5755.370000000001,"text":"這些監委和調查官"},{"start":5755.570000000001,"end":5756.77,"text":"做事的"},{"start":5757.070000000001,"end":5758.47,"text":"這實在是負擔非常重"},{"start":5759.5,"end":5761.2,"text":"所以調查的品質"},{"start":5761.3,"end":5762.2,"text":"你說會多少好"},{"start":5762.69,"end":5764.889999999999,"text":"這基本上就是一個限制"},{"start":5765.089999999999,"end":5766.889999999999,"text":"這就應該讓我們看完之後"},{"start":5766.889999999999,"end":5768.089999999999,"text":"來改善 進步"},{"start":5768.77,"end":5770.97,"text":"不過為公正的重點"},{"start":5771.6,"end":5774,"text":"在沒有修憲完成以前"},{"start":5774.64,"end":5777.240000000001,"text":"監察院就是一個合法的憲政機關"},{"start":5777.4400000000005,"end":5779.240000000001,"text":"它有非常必要性的功能"},{"start":5779.870000000001,"end":5782.17,"text":"你不能亂花費 把它賺亂掉"},{"start":5782.47,"end":5785.47,"text":"這第一個重大損害到人民的權益"},{"start":5786.55,"end":5789.65,"text":"所以我希望對於我們的被提名人"},{"start":5789.65,"end":5790.95,"text":"有很大的貢獻"},{"start":5797.49,"end":5798.889999999999,"text":"好 謝謝林委員"},{"start":5799.49,"end":5802.19,"text":"現在我們請劉許廷委員詢問"},{"start":5816.81,"end":5818.31,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":5821.11,"end":5823.509999999999,"text":"請陳被提名的被刑"},{"start":5828.92,"end":5829.82,"text":"被提名人早安"},{"start":5830.0199999999995,"end":5831.12,"text":"我是立法委員劉許廷"},{"start":5831.32,"end":5833.12,"text":"今天我們分兩個層面"},{"start":5833.12,"end":5835.92,"text":"探討一下監察院的功能跟角色扮演"},{"start":5836.219999999999,"end":5839.5199999999995,"text":"希望被提名人知無不言 言無不盡"},{"start":5839.92,"end":5843.5199999999995,"text":"第一個我們探討監察院的憲政角色"},{"start":5843.719999999999,"end":5844.62,"text":"這個大家都知道"},{"start":5845.72,"end":5849.12,"text":"監察院是憲法設置的監察機關"},{"start":5849.42,"end":5851.12,"text":"核心的職能大家都非常清楚"},{"start":5851.12,"end":5853.92,"text":"基本上就是強力的監督公務人員"},{"start":5853.92,"end":5855.12,"text":"以及政務人員"},{"start":5855.22,"end":5857.62,"text":"有沒有違法失職的各種情勢"},{"start":5858.0199999999995,"end":5859.22,"text":"憲法第95條明定"},{"start":5859.32,"end":5861.42,"text":"監察院行使監察權"},{"start":5861.72,"end":5863.72,"text":"得向行政院及各部會調閱"},{"start":5863.72,"end":5865.62,"text":"發布命令及各種有關的文件"},{"start":5865.62,"end":5867.0199999999995,"text":"甚至都是內參的文件"},{"start":5867.0199999999995,"end":5868.72,"text":"你也都可以調閱 有調閱權利"},{"start":5868.92,"end":5872.82,"text":"監察法也賦予了監察委員調查各機關"},{"start":5873.12,"end":5874.22,"text":"及相關人員的權利"},{"start":5874.22,"end":5875.22,"text":"就是所謂的調查權"},{"start":5875.52,"end":5877.820000000001,"text":"因此我們常常都關注"},{"start":5877.820000000001,"end":5882.62,"text":"監察院不能只等到法院判決公務員違法之後"},{"start":5882.72,"end":5884.320000000001,"text":"我才來做事後的調查"},{"start":5884.320000000001,"end":5885.52,"text":"或者是有權的調查"},{"start":5885.62,"end":5888.02,"text":"而是只要有任何的具體事證"},{"start":5888.02,"end":5889.62,"text":"甚至有這樣的一個跡象的時候"},{"start":5889.62,"end":5891.02,"text":"其實是應該要主動出擊的"},{"start":5891.22,"end":5892.820000000001,"text":"只要任何的行政機關"},{"start":5892.820000000001,"end":5896.02,"text":"或者是公務員有可能有違法失職的一個狀況"},{"start":5896.12,"end":5898.12,"text":"其實就可以早日起動調查"},{"start":5898.22,"end":5900.02,"text":"來儘速釐清事實跟責任"},{"start":5900.02,"end":5901.52,"text":"這不也應該同意這樣的說法吧"},{"start":5901.62,"end":5902.72,"text":"我這個我贊成"},{"start":5903.13,"end":5903.93,"text":"贊成對不對"},{"start":5903.93,"end":5905.53,"text":"所以我們要討論一下這個憲政"},{"start":5905.53,"end":5907.2300000000005,"text":"我們就從憲大的方向開始談"},{"start":5907.2300000000005,"end":5909.53,"text":"就談一下所謂的憲政分際的一個詢問"},{"start":5909.7300000000005,"end":5912.93,"text":"因為監察院能夠合理的扮演憲政分際的時候"},{"start":5912.93,"end":5915.2300000000005,"text":"才是能夠發揮功能的一個關鍵"},{"start":5915.33,"end":5916.43,"text":"這不能只是說說而已"},{"start":5916.63,"end":5918.43,"text":"而是無法這個過去"},{"start":5918.43,"end":5920.2300000000005,"text":"常常有沒有辦法付諸實踐的問題"},{"start":5920.2300000000005,"end":5922.13,"text":"剛剛好幾位委員在質詢的時候"},{"start":5922.13,"end":5925.7300000000005,"text":"其實都提到了這個民意對於監察院的存在"},{"start":5925.93,"end":5927.43,"text":"大概顯然是已經是"},{"start":5927.63,"end":5929.53,"text":"其實相對一個負面的一個看法"},{"start":5929.63,"end":5932.2300000000005,"text":"其實很多時候就背後是有結構性的這樣一個原因"},{"start":5932.629999999999,"end":5933.929999999999,"text":"我想請教一下被提名人"},{"start":5933.929999999999,"end":5935.03,"text":"這依照憲法"},{"start":5935.33,"end":5937.73,"text":"行政機關有沒有權利自行認定"},{"start":5937.83,"end":5939.73,"text":"立法院三讀通過的法律"},{"start":5940.129999999999,"end":5942.23,"text":"還有總統已經公佈的法律是違憲"},{"start":5942.23,"end":5943.129999999999,"text":"所以他拒絕執行"},{"start":5945.33,"end":5947.23,"text":"委員是說行政機關能不能自行"},{"start":5947.23,"end":5950.03,"text":"行政院有沒有權利去認定立法院通過"},{"start":5950.03,"end":5951.73,"text":"而且經過總統公佈的法律"},{"start":5951.83,"end":5953.53,"text":"因為我認為他違憲所以我不執行"},{"start":5953.73,"end":5954.629999999999,"text":"他可不可以這樣"},{"start":5954.83,"end":5956.429999999999,"text":"這個當然會引起爭議"},{"start":5956.53,"end":5960.129999999999,"text":"那所以我想這個還是要憲法法庭去做裁決"},{"start":5960.73,"end":5964.629999999999,"text":"行政機構跟立法機構意見不一樣的時候"},{"start":5964.83,"end":5968.929999999999,"text":"那應該是大法官會議跟憲法法庭要去做裁決"},{"start":5968.929999999999,"end":5970.129999999999,"text":"這個是最後的裁決"},{"start":5970.129999999999,"end":5971.429999999999,"text":"但是從你的角度"},{"start":5971.429999999999,"end":5973.23,"text":"有沒有人可以片面認定這個事"},{"start":5973.23,"end":5975.23,"text":"他們可不可以直接認定這件事"},{"start":5975.89,"end":5978.89,"text":"我想這個是會有爭議"},{"start":5978.89,"end":5980.79,"text":"但是我不能說他可不可以"},{"start":5980.79,"end":5984.490000000001,"text":"因為檢察院沒有辦法去做這樣的一個判定"},{"start":5985.150000000001,"end":5986.650000000001,"text":"那我想請教一下我們大家都講"},{"start":5986.650000000001,"end":5988.55,"text":"檢察院整個運作的核心"},{"start":5988.55,"end":5991.45,"text":"這我想整個國家運作的核心法治國原則"},{"start":5991.55,"end":5993.35,"text":"依法行政是最重要的"},{"start":5993.55,"end":5996.150000000001,"text":"這甚至檢察院很多時候要補一補立法院的功能"},{"start":5996.150000000001,"end":5998.95,"text":"就是因為即便是違反法律精神的時候"},{"start":5998.95,"end":6000.05,"text":"其實你都可以集中調查"},{"start":6000.05,"end":6000.55,"text":"對不對"},{"start":6000.55,"end":6003.150000000001,"text":"大家都檢察院的角色想像跟期待是這樣"},{"start":6003.35,"end":6006.05,"text":"所以換言之社會大眾對於檢察院的期待"},{"start":6006.05,"end":6007.45,"text":"甚至有的就是高過立法院"},{"start":6007.650000000001,"end":6010.35,"text":"立法院沒辦法處理是因為我們這邊被法律等等的框架"},{"start":6010.45,"end":6011.650000000001,"text":"所框線住"},{"start":6011.85,"end":6013.25,"text":"但是我們法律的精神"},{"start":6013.35,"end":6015.45,"text":"如果能夠往好的方向去貫徹"},{"start":6015.45,"end":6018.05,"text":"變成一個乾乾淨淨正正當當的國家"},{"start":6018.15,"end":6020.05,"text":"這才是檢察院的角色"},{"start":6020.15,"end":6021.75,"text":"結果你今天我們在討論"},{"start":6021.85,"end":6023.45,"text":"這個憲政裡面出現很大的問題"},{"start":6023.45,"end":6024.25,"text":"你說我只能爭議"},{"start":6024.35,"end":6025.55,"text":"我只能袖手旁觀"},{"start":6025.55,"end":6028.45,"text":"我覺得這樣的一個答案是蠻失望的"},{"start":6028.55,"end":6029.75,"text":"我想請教一下背景人"},{"start":6029.75,"end":6032.05,"text":"憲法有哪一條法律規定"},{"start":6032.05,"end":6034.65,"text":"這個行政機關可以自行宣告法律是否違憲嗎"},{"start":6035.97,"end":6037.17,"text":"我們就法論法就好"},{"start":6037.570000000001,"end":6038.27,"text":"我不知道"},{"start":6038.900000000001,"end":6039.8,"text":"但是"},{"start":6039.8,"end":6040.2,"text":"對"},{"start":6040.2,"end":6041.6,"text":"當然沒有嘛對不對"},{"start":6041.6,"end":6043.400000000001,"text":"我舉一個例子比如說"},{"start":6043.7,"end":6044.8,"text":"法院的判決"},{"start":6045.43,"end":6048.93,"text":"那如果人民不甘願"},{"start":6049.13,"end":6051.530000000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120000000001,"text":"那你今天講立法院已經告訴你了"},{"start":6234.120000000001,"end":6236.22,"text":"現在我們有這個我們當然有在追蹤啊"},{"start":6236.22,"end":6238.22,"text":"他就是沒有執行沒有編列相關的預算"},{"start":6238.22,"end":6240.620000000001,"text":"還形成了很多的這個執政的一個僵局"},{"start":6240.620000000001,"end":6241.820000000001,"text":"預算的僵局等等"},{"start":6241.820000000001,"end":6244.620000000001,"text":"都是因為來自於這個法律沒有被依法執行"},{"start":6244.620000000001,"end":6246.42,"text":"那請問監察院的角色是什麼呢"},{"start":6246.72,"end":6247.620000000001,"text":"在這個案例裡面"},{"start":6248.22,"end":6250.320000000001,"text":"那如果立法院向監察院提出"},{"start":6250.52,"end":6252.42,"text":"這個案子我們可以調查"},{"start":6252.92,"end":6254.72,"text":"提到但是結論是你沒有調查"},{"start":6254.92,"end":6255.92,"text":"有提啊"},{"start":6256.02,"end":6258.42,"text":"這些當然都有提都有送到監察院啊"},{"start":6258.52,"end":6260.02,"text":"監察院當初的回應是說"},{"start":6260.12,"end":6261.820000000001,"text":"我們這個沒有辦法沒有辦法出"},{"start":6261.820000000001,"end":6263.12,"text":"因為這個是屬於憲政爭議"},{"start":6263.12,"end":6264.320000000001,"text":"因為他講說這個要釋憲"},{"start":6264.62,"end":6267.320000000001,"text":"現在我們執政黨只要這個"},{"start":6267.42,"end":6269.92,"text":"對法案品質不滿意或者是內容不滿意"},{"start":6269.92,"end":6271.92,"text":"他就說我有憲政爭議片面認定"},{"start":6272.9400000000005,"end":6274.04,"text":"要要進憲法法律"},{"start":6274.04,"end":6275.24,"text":"你也就是說好吧"},{"start":6275.24,"end":6277.34,"text":"那就交給那個處理你不亦有態度啊"},{"start":6277.4400000000005,"end":6278.64,"text":"現在的狀況是這樣"},{"start":6278.9400000000005,"end":6281.04,"text":"很多立法院通過了法案"},{"start":6281.24,"end":6282.4400000000005,"text":"出現爭議的時候"},{"start":6282.54,"end":6283.9400000000005,"text":"我沒有希望監察院有態度啊"},{"start":6283.9400000000005,"end":6285.4400000000005,"text":"但監察院決定是我沒有態度"},{"start":6285.64,"end":6287.24,"text":"被提名同意這樣子的一個風氣嘛"},{"start":6288.14,"end":6289.24,"text":"我剛剛已經講了"},{"start":6289.24,"end":6291.64,"text":"如果立法院跟行政院的看法"},{"start":6291.94,"end":6294.24,"text":"是是在憲政上有爭議"},{"start":6294.24,"end":6296.04,"text":"這個要大法官來解釋嘛"},{"start":6296.14,"end":6297.74,"text":"不是由監察院來判決"},{"start":6297.84,"end":6299.04,"text":"是啊所以你在回應啊"},{"start":6299.04,"end":6300.44,"text":"我們立法院相關的一個問卷的時候"},{"start":6300.44,"end":6300.94,"text":"你就講啊"},{"start":6300.94,"end":6303.24,"text":"這有沒有違憲只有司法院可以回答"},{"start":6303.24,"end":6304.64,"text":"但在這個判決出來之前"},{"start":6304.64,"end":6305.84,"text":"你不亦有任何態度"},{"start":6305.84,"end":6306.94,"text":"這就是有問題嘛"},{"start":6306.94,"end":6308.44,"text":"因為我剛舉的軍人待遇條例"},{"start":6308.44,"end":6310.04,"text":"完全沒有任何爭議不是嗎"},{"start":6310.34,"end":6311.94,"text":"但是你也沒有做相應的處理"},{"start":6311.94,"end":6313.44,"text":"你也沒有做調調查"},{"start":6313.44,"end":6314.84,"text":"也沒有做彈劾等等"},{"start":6314.94,"end":6317.54,"text":"那當然嘛大家就會對監察院失去信心"},{"start":6318.42,"end":6320.42,"text":"被提名人提了很多改革的一個主張"},{"start":6320.95,"end":6322.75,"text":"這個大家剛剛這個很多委員也講"},{"start":6322.75,"end":6324.75,"text":"這擔心監察院被沒有牙齒的老虎"},{"start":6324.849999999999,"end":6326.05,"text":"你都不擔心這樣的事情嗎"},{"start":6327.13,"end":6330.43,"text":"我覺得如果真的立法院有碰到這個問題"},{"start":6330.53,"end":6332.03,"text":"把案子送到監察院"},{"start":6332.03,"end":6334.63,"text":"監察院是可以調查成案立案的"},{"start":6334.7300000000005,"end":6336.53,"text":"但是最後的結果我不知道"},{"start":6336.53,"end":6338.2300000000005,"text":"因為要看調查的結果"},{"start":6338.2300000000005,"end":6340.2300000000005,"text":"因為前面不管是調查立案"},{"start":6340.2300000000005,"end":6341.03,"text":"就不受理嘛"},{"start":6341.03,"end":6342.13,"text":"不處理不立案嘛"},{"start":6342.13,"end":6342.93,"text":"然後剛剛問你"},{"start":6342.93,"end":6345.2300000000005,"text":"你要講說啊不亦有不亦有態度"},{"start":6345.2300000000005,"end":6346.63,"text":"你在問卷回答的時候都是這樣"},{"start":6346.63,"end":6347.83,"text":"這就是本席今天要提一下"},{"start":6347.83,"end":6348.63,"text":"這件事情的原因"},{"start":6348.63,"end":6349.7300000000005,"text":"我們很擔心啊"},{"start":6349.93,"end":6352.63,"text":"如果監察院沒有辦法扮演這樣一個角色的時候"},{"start":6352.63,"end":6354.83,"text":"那當然嘛就會違反這個社會"},{"start":6355.33,"end":6358.13,"text":"你剛剛提的是兩個不同例子嘛"},{"start":6358.63,"end":6360.13,"text":"一個是他不附屬"},{"start":6360.13,"end":6363.03,"text":"那這個是軍人代表的決議"},{"start":6363.03,"end":6364.13,"text":"他附屬了"},{"start":6364.63,"end":6365.93,"text":"總統也公布了"},{"start":6365.93,"end":6367.83,"text":"那這個是實行的問題嘛"},{"start":6367.83,"end":6369.93,"text":"所以這是兩個不同的"},{"start":6369.93,"end":6372.93,"text":"我剛剛舉的例子就是軍人代表的決議"},{"start":6372.93,"end":6374.73,"text":"因為我說依法公布的一個法律"},{"start":6374.73,"end":6375.53,"text":"就應該要執行"},{"start":6375.53,"end":6376.73,"text":"這其實從監察院"},{"start":6376.73,"end":6379.13,"text":"從依法行政的精神本來就要貫徹"},{"start":6379.13,"end":6380.93,"text":"我很擔心這樣的風氣一旦建立"},{"start":6380.93,"end":6382.33,"text":"你未來監察院啊"},{"start":6382.33,"end":6385.53,"text":"我要開始調查違法失職的各種項目的時候"},{"start":6385.53,"end":6386.63,"text":"然後下面的公務員講說"},{"start":6386.63,"end":6388.03,"text":"我覺得這個東西有憲政爭議"},{"start":6388.03,"end":6389.83,"text":"你以前只要碰到憲政爭議你就不處理"},{"start":6390.13,"end":6391.13,"text":"這個很麻煩"},{"start":6391.13,"end":6393.43,"text":"你反而會影響監察院的一個職能"},{"start":6393.43,"end":6394.23,"text":"時間有限啊"},{"start":6394.23,"end":6395.43,"text":"我就不多跟你談這個事"},{"start":6395.43,"end":6396.73,"text":"另外一個我要提醒一下"},{"start":6396.73,"end":6398.13,"text":"剛剛有委員講說啊"},{"start":6398.13,"end":6400.43,"text":"這個立法院很喜歡用監察院的調查報告啊"},{"start":6400.43,"end":6401.83,"text":"所以監察院很有功能"},{"start":6401.83,"end":6404.73,"text":"以經貿談判辦公室這個案子來說啊"},{"start":6405.13,"end":6406.73,"text":"這個調查報告什麼時候出來的"},{"start":6407.33,"end":6408.33,"text":"7月29號"},{"start":6408.990000000001,"end":6410.490000000001,"text":"行政院什麼時候免職的"},{"start":6410.79,"end":6411.990000000001,"text":"7月2號"},{"start":6412.490000000001,"end":6415.29,"text":"如果監察院不能善察於前"},{"start":6415.29,"end":6416.59,"text":"強力處理於前"},{"start":6416.59,"end":6418.39,"text":"在這種重大的社會主義案子那邊"},{"start":6418.39,"end":6420.29,"text":"彰顯相關的權利的話"},{"start":6420.29,"end":6421.29,"text":"這就是為什麼"},{"start":6421.29,"end":6423.59,"text":"大家覺得監察院可憂可哺的原因啦"},{"start":6423.59,"end":6424.490000000001,"text":"這因為沒有時間"},{"start":6424.490000000001,"end":6426.1900000000005,"text":"我就沒辦法聽你回答比較遺憾"},{"start":6426.1900000000005,"end":6428.6900000000005,"text":"但留在議事錄上給大家做一個參考"},{"start":6428.6900000000005,"end":6429.39,"text":"以上謝謝"},{"start":6430.1,"end":6431.400000000001,"text":"謝謝你後援"},{"start":6433.02,"end":6435.92,"text":"接下來我們請李坤城委員質詢"},{"start":6435.92,"end":6436.92,"text":"詢問"},{"start":6452.61,"end":6454.41,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":6454.41,"end":6458.21,"text":"那我們現在請監察院院長貝提明人陳永新院長"},{"start":6458.21,"end":6460.21,"text":"請陳貝提明人"},{"start":6465.25,"end":6466.049999999999,"text":"院長好"},{"start":6466.049999999999,"end":6466.549999999999,"text":"你好"},{"start":6467.75,"end":6470.75,"text":"院長算是這個民主政治的前輩"},{"start":6470.75,"end":6472.549999999999,"text":"不過今天基於之前的關係"},{"start":6472.549999999999,"end":6474.15,"text":"我必須有些問題要請教您"},{"start":6474.15,"end":6474.849999999999,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6474.849999999999,"end":6476.45,"text":"那個請教一下"},{"start":6476.45,"end":6478.349999999999,"text":"去年其實在立法院"},{"start":6478.349999999999,"end":6480.15,"text":"他就已經大幅的這個"},{"start":6480.15,"end":6482.75,"text":"刪除跟凍結監察院的預算"},{"start":6482.75,"end":6484.65,"text":"那今年度也是一樣"},{"start":6484.65,"end":6485.049999999999,"text":"那"},{"start":6486.15,"end":6487.15,"text":"今年度的預算"},{"start":6487.15,"end":6488.95,"text":"我看也是被"},{"start":6488.95,"end":6490.049999999999,"text":"也是被刪除了"},{"start":6490.049999999999,"end":6491.849999999999,"text":"大概是除了這個人事費用之外"},{"start":6491.849999999999,"end":6494.549999999999,"text":"其他的業務費用全部都刪除掉了"},{"start":6494.650000000001,"end":6496.45,"text":"那我想請問一下陳院長"},{"start":6496.45,"end":6497.85,"text":"如果有這個機會"},{"start":6497.85,"end":6500.35,"text":"擔任這一個監察院的院長"},{"start":6500.35,"end":6502.150000000001,"text":"那你發現說你上任之後"},{"start":6502.150000000001,"end":6503.55,"text":"你只剩下人事費"},{"start":6503.55,"end":6505.25,"text":"其他所有的費用都沒有了"},{"start":6505.25,"end":6506.150000000001,"text":"都被刪除了"},{"start":6506.150000000001,"end":6507.650000000001,"text":"那整個監察院要怎麼運作"},{"start":6508.94,"end":6510.94,"text":"你不能要馬兒"},{"start":6510.94,"end":6513.44,"text":"跑又要馬兒不吃草嘛"},{"start":6513.44,"end":6516.339999999999,"text":"我會爭取合理的預算"},{"start":6516.339999999999,"end":6517.139999999999,"text":"我覺得"},{"start":6517.85,"end":6521.950000000001,"text":"在監察院沒有被修憲廢除以前"},{"start":6521.950000000001,"end":6524.55,"text":"不應該用把預算刪除"},{"start":6524.55,"end":6528.150000000001,"text":"或者是把監察委員的人選全部否決"},{"start":6528.150000000001,"end":6530.35,"text":"讓他變成一個空窗"},{"start":6530.35,"end":6531.75,"text":"空轉的機構"},{"start":6531.75,"end":6533.25,"text":"然後讓他癱瘓"},{"start":6533.25,"end":6535.55,"text":"這樣的做法不但不合理"},{"start":6535.55,"end":6537.75,"text":"其實是違憲的"},{"start":6537.75,"end":6539.650000000001,"text":"所以我如果做監察院長"},{"start":6539.650000000001,"end":6542.25,"text":"我一定跟立法院充分的溝通"},{"start":6542.25,"end":6543.85,"text":"爭取合理的預算"},{"start":6543.85,"end":6545.55,"text":"但是有可能在你這個"},{"start":6545.55,"end":6546.950000000001,"text":"有機會擔任院長的時候"},{"start":6546.95,"end":6548.65,"text":"預算已經被刪除掉了"},{"start":6548.65,"end":6551.25,"text":"所以我今天希望我這裡的發言"},{"start":6551.25,"end":6555.25,"text":"讓這個這個禮拜你們最後協商的時候"},{"start":6555.25,"end":6557.45,"text":"主張要刪預算的"},{"start":6557.45,"end":6560.65,"text":"立法委員可以再慎重的思考一下"},{"start":6560.65,"end":6562.65,"text":"那如果在您就任之前"},{"start":6562.65,"end":6563.65,"text":"有機會就任之前"},{"start":6563.65,"end":6564.55,"text":"預算被刪除了"},{"start":6564.55,"end":6566.05,"text":"那你會採取什麼樣的一個"},{"start":6566.05,"end":6567.45,"text":"法律的一個就介的行為"},{"start":6568.6900000000005,"end":6569.59,"text":"我很遺憾"},{"start":6569.59,"end":6572.59,"text":"但是我會研究是不是可以再"},{"start":6572.59,"end":6574.09,"text":"請監察院附議"},{"start":6574.09,"end":6576.29,"text":"或者是行政院幫我們提這個附議"},{"start":6577.13,"end":6578.63,"text":"因為去年是這個"},{"start":6578.63,"end":6580.33,"text":"因為有監委是"},{"start":6580.33,"end":6582.83,"text":"監察院是提出釋憲"},{"start":6582.83,"end":6584.53,"text":"那所以釋憲是不是也是"},{"start":6584.53,"end":6585.33,"text":"如果有機會的話"},{"start":6585.33,"end":6586.43,"text":"會採取了一個動作"},{"start":6587.150000000001,"end":6588.35,"text":"其實我覺得立法院"},{"start":6588.35,"end":6590.150000000001,"text":"如果是講道理的地方"},{"start":6590.150000000001,"end":6592.85,"text":"這個其實還不需要動到釋憲"},{"start":6592.85,"end":6593.85,"text":"如果是講道理的地方"},{"start":6593.85,"end":6595.35,"text":"預算就不會被刪掉了"},{"start":6595.35,"end":6597.05,"text":"對啊這個機關沒有廢除"},{"start":6597.05,"end":6597.95,"text":"你不給他預算"},{"start":6597.95,"end":6599.75,"text":"然後你又要求他做事情"},{"start":6599.75,"end":6601.05,"text":"要有功能"},{"start":6601.05,"end":6602.55,"text":"這個是矛盾"},{"start":6602.55,"end":6604.45,"text":"我剛剛已經舉例了"},{"start":6604.45,"end":6605.25,"text":"你治安不好"},{"start":6605.25,"end":6607.55,"text":"你不能把警政署廢掉"},{"start":6607.55,"end":6611.25,"text":"你應該監察警察的人力設備配備"},{"start":6611.25,"end":6611.95,"text":"一樣的道理"},{"start":6611.95,"end":6613.25,"text":"我們醫院也是這樣"},{"start":6613.25,"end":6615.150000000001,"text":"我發現一個醫院沒有好"},{"start":6615.150000000001,"end":6615.75,"text":"經營不好"},{"start":6615.75,"end":6617.85,"text":"我就是派更好的醫生去"},{"start":6618.54,"end":6619.839999999999,"text":"給他充分的設備"},{"start":6619.839999999999,"end":6623.54,"text":"讓他提升服務病人的這個績效"},{"start":6638.6900000000005,"end":6641.39,"text":"有可能這個監察委員的提名人"},{"start":6641.39,"end":6643.09,"text":"都被藍白"},{"start":6643.09,"end":6644.09,"text":"都被反對了"},{"start":6644.09,"end":6645.79,"text":"所以接下來有可能"},{"start":6645.79,"end":6649.09,"text":"會呈現一個沒有監察委員的監察院"},{"start":6649.9400000000005,"end":6653.54,"text":"那這個我想對台灣社會的不幸"},{"start":6653.54,"end":6654.54,"text":"我覺得"},{"start":6655.650000000001,"end":6656.55,"text":"不要什麼事情"},{"start":6656.55,"end":6659.650000000001,"text":"都要讓這個政府癱瘓空傳"},{"start":6659.650000000001,"end":6663.05,"text":"大家應該為了整個人民著想"},{"start":6663.05,"end":6665.55,"text":"這個機構讓他發揮功能才是正途"},{"start":6667.38,"end":6668.68,"text":"所以其實蠻矛盾的"},{"start":6668.68,"end":6671.68,"text":"我剛才也聽了幾位國民黨委員他們的說法"},{"start":6671.68,"end":6674.4800000000005,"text":"台北提到說這個監察院要發揮調查權"},{"start":6674.4800000000005,"end":6675.4800000000005,"text":"監察權"},{"start":6675.4800000000005,"end":6675.9800000000005,"text":"要彈劾"},{"start":6675.9800000000005,"end":6676.68,"text":"要糾舉"},{"start":6676.68,"end":6677.88,"text":"糾正等等之類的"},{"start":6677.88,"end":6680.88,"text":"但是實際上他沒有想讓你過"},{"start":6680.88,"end":6681.58,"text":"沒有想讓你過"},{"start":6681.58,"end":6684.28,"text":"因為希望說監察院要發揮這些的功能"},{"start":6684.28,"end":6685.88,"text":"這其實是矛盾的"},{"start":6685.88,"end":6687.4800000000005,"text":"那我再請一下一下陳院長"},{"start":6687.4800000000005,"end":6690.68,"text":"那過去您跟這個民眾黨的關係"},{"start":6690.68,"end":6693.58,"text":"跟這個柯文哲跟黃國昌"},{"start":6693.58,"end":6695.68,"text":"兩位主席的關係算是不錯"},{"start":6695.68,"end":6697.58,"text":"那這次有特別去拜會他們嗎"},{"start":6698.26,"end":6698.76,"text":"沒有"},{"start":6699.15,"end":6701.849999999999,"text":"我過去當然從"},{"start":6702.6,"end":6704.400000000001,"text":"台聯時代力量"},{"start":6704.400000000001,"end":6706,"text":"一直到民眾黨"},{"start":6706,"end":6708.900000000001,"text":"我都是比較關心弱勢"},{"start":6708.900000000001,"end":6710.3,"text":"所以我也覺得他們是"},{"start":6710.3,"end":6712.400000000001,"text":"台灣社會比較弱小的政黨"},{"start":6712.400000000001,"end":6715.3,"text":"我都曾經給予很大的幫忙"},{"start":6715.3,"end":6716,"text":"但是呢"},{"start":6716,"end":6719.6,"text":"我覺得監察院長是一個要得罪人的"},{"start":6720.42,"end":6722.52,"text":"監察院是得罪人的地方"},{"start":6722.52,"end":6723.22,"text":"所以"},{"start":6723.93,"end":6728.7300000000005,"text":"我不會去拜託任何的一個委員"},{"start":6728.7300000000005,"end":6732.030000000001,"text":"李登輝總統曾經提名我做監察委員"},{"start":6732.030000000001,"end":6733.83,"text":"那時候我才39歲"},{"start":6733.83,"end":6735.7300000000005,"text":"是最年輕的監委"},{"start":6735.7300000000005,"end":6737.33,"text":"那時候的院長是陳禹安"},{"start":6738.02,"end":6741.52,"text":"李登輝總統要陳禹安帶我們29個監委"},{"start":6741.52,"end":6744.22,"text":"去拜託當時的國民大會代表"},{"start":6744.22,"end":6746.120000000001,"text":"只有我一個沒有去"},{"start":6746.120000000001,"end":6746.92,"text":"因為我覺得"},{"start":6746.92,"end":6749.72,"text":"我不能欠這些國大人情"},{"start":6749.72,"end":6751.620000000001,"text":"我將來要彈劾人家"},{"start":6751.620000000001,"end":6752.620000000001,"text":"他們說"},{"start":6752.620000000001,"end":6754.52,"text":"你當初請我投你一票"},{"start":6754.52,"end":6756.820000000001,"text":"那這個案子是不是可以"},{"start":6756.820000000001,"end":6758.22,"text":"這個觀說一下"},{"start":6758.22,"end":6759.52,"text":"那我怎麼做"},{"start":6759.52,"end":6761.320000000001,"text":"所以我是不會去"},{"start":6762.83,"end":6763.83,"text":"好"},{"start":6763.83,"end":6767.83,"text":"那因為除了民進黨支持之外"},{"start":6767.83,"end":6769.53,"text":"可能還需要在野黨的支持"},{"start":6769.53,"end":6771.83,"text":"那你有信心通過這次的人事通告"},{"start":6771.83,"end":6773.23,"text":"我知道有困難"},{"start":6773.84,"end":6774.9400000000005,"text":"第一次來總統"},{"start":6774.9400000000005,"end":6776.64,"text":"希望我當任監察院長"},{"start":6776.64,"end":6777.4400000000005,"text":"我說"},{"start":6777.4400000000005,"end":6778.84,"text":"大概不會通過吧"},{"start":6779.51,"end":6781.81,"text":"我說讓我思考一個禮拜"},{"start":6781.81,"end":6782.91,"text":"後來我祈禱"},{"start":6783.71,"end":6784.51,"text":"我覺得"},{"start":6785.3,"end":6787.7,"text":"監察院是一個行公義的地方"},{"start":6787.7,"end":6790,"text":"是要追求社會公平正義"},{"start":6790,"end":6791.8,"text":"那這個是聖經"},{"start":6792.44,"end":6794.139999999999,"text":"所教會"},{"start":6794.139999999999,"end":6796.24,"text":"也是我畢生努力的目標"},{"start":6796.24,"end":6797.639999999999,"text":"後來我跟"},{"start":6797.639999999999,"end":6798.339999999999,"text":"賴總統說"},{"start":6798.339999999999,"end":6799.639999999999,"text":"好啦我答應"},{"start":6799.639999999999,"end":6800.94,"text":"即使不過"},{"start":6800.94,"end":6802.639999999999,"text":"也是上帝的旨意"},{"start":6802.639999999999,"end":6805.04,"text":"那我願意承擔這個"},{"start":6805.82,"end":6806.92,"text":"但是但是呢"},{"start":6807.51,"end":6810.41,"text":"事實上我覺得目前朝野對立的這種氣氛"},{"start":6811.59,"end":6813.889999999999,"text":"真的我們要把監察院好好改革"},{"start":6813.889999999999,"end":6815.59,"text":"是有相當的困難"},{"start":6815.59,"end":6817.19,"text":"可是要廢掉"},{"start":6817.19,"end":6818.59,"text":"現實是做不到"},{"start":6819.2300000000005,"end":6821.83,"text":"最少好幾年的時間"},{"start":6821.83,"end":6823.2300000000005,"text":"要去討論這個"},{"start":6823.2300000000005,"end":6824.83,"text":"新鮮的這個"},{"start":6824.83,"end":6826.33,"text":"真正的版本"},{"start":6826.33,"end":6828.7300000000005,"text":"所以我覺得應該是"},{"start":6828.7300000000005,"end":6829.63,"text":"朝野的立委"},{"start":6829.63,"end":6831.7300000000005,"text":"特別是在野的立委"},{"start":6831.7300000000005,"end":6833.33,"text":"其實應該"},{"start":6833.33,"end":6835.7300000000005,"text":"用朝野黨派的思考"},{"start":6835.7300000000005,"end":6836.43,"text":"來"},{"start":6837.46,"end":6838.96,"text":"看這個人事案"},{"start":6838.96,"end":6839.66,"text":"我覺得"},{"start":6840.13,"end":6841.93,"text":"不是所有提名的都不適任"},{"start":6842.83,"end":6845.33,"text":"如果說要全部封殺"},{"start":6845.33,"end":6847.629999999999,"text":"那根本就不需要審查"},{"start":6847.629999999999,"end":6849.53,"text":"就直接退回了"},{"start":6849.53,"end":6850.929999999999,"text":"既然要審查"},{"start":6850.929999999999,"end":6852.23,"text":"就應該好好的看"},{"start":6852.23,"end":6853.53,"text":"每一個被提名人"},{"start":6854.1,"end":6855.900000000001,"text":"他的操守"},{"start":6856.950000000001,"end":6858.75,"text":"他的性格"},{"start":6858.75,"end":6860.450000000001,"text":"或者他過去的表現"},{"start":6860.450000000001,"end":6861.75,"text":"他的專業"},{"start":6861.75,"end":6864.55,"text":"在社會上是不是一個受敬重的"},{"start":6864.55,"end":6866.75,"text":"一個好的監委的人選"},{"start":6866.75,"end":6871.05,"text":"那我覺得這樣才能夠幫助台灣社會"},{"start":6871.05,"end":6872.450000000001,"text":"讓監察院發揮功能"},{"start":6872.450000000001,"end":6875.150000000001,"text":"陳院長講的是一個理想的一個狀態"},{"start":6875.150000000001,"end":6877.450000000001,"text":"如果立法院是講道理的地方"},{"start":6877.450000000001,"end":6880.05,"text":"審查也不應該全部都封殺"},{"start":6880.05,"end":6882.35,"text":"那目前看起來"},{"start":6882.35,"end":6884.55,"text":"有可能還是會被在野黨封殺"},{"start":6884.55,"end":6886.150000000001,"text":"我也是"},{"start":6887.120000000001,"end":6888.320000000001,"text":"問心無愧"},{"start":6888.320000000001,"end":6890.820000000001,"text":"我覺得平常心"},{"start":6890.820000000001,"end":6891.620000000001,"text":"被通過了"},{"start":6891.620000000001,"end":6895.92,"text":"我一定讓監察院變成一個民眾可以信賴"},{"start":6895.92,"end":6896.92,"text":"然後"},{"start":6897.79,"end":6899.389999999999,"text":"行使公義的地方"},{"start":6899.389999999999,"end":6900.589999999999,"text":"但是不通過"},{"start":6901.25,"end":6903.35,"text":"其實是讓我比較自由"},{"start":6904.570000000001,"end":6905.47,"text":"我這個年紀"},{"start":6905.47,"end":6908.97,"text":"我可以比較輕鬆的過日子"},{"start":6908.97,"end":6910.67,"text":"那再請教一下陳院長"},{"start":6910.67,"end":6913.37,"text":"因為剛剛有委員有提到說"},{"start":6913.37,"end":6914.77,"text":"我們楊錚宁"},{"start":6914.77,"end":6916.67,"text":"我們談判總代表楊錚宁"},{"start":6916.67,"end":6918.87,"text":"他是在7月29號"},{"start":6918.87,"end":6921.37,"text":"被第六屆的監察委員"},{"start":6921.37,"end":6922.37,"text":"通過彈劾"},{"start":6922.37,"end":6923.17,"text":"那通過彈劾"},{"start":6923.17,"end":6924.17,"text":"接下來"},{"start":6924.17,"end":6927.070000000001,"text":"是要送懲戒法院來做審理"},{"start":6927.070000000001,"end":6929.17,"text":"那接下來有可能會產生一些問題"},{"start":6929.17,"end":6930.570000000001,"text":"就是當懲戒法院"},{"start":6930.570000000001,"end":6932.17,"text":"不是在監察院這個體系"},{"start":6932.17,"end":6932.97,"text":"但是"},{"start":6932.97,"end":6934.37,"text":"如果懲戒法院"},{"start":6934.37,"end":6935.57,"text":"他審理的案件"},{"start":6935.57,"end":6937.17,"text":"一審判決出來"},{"start":6937.17,"end":6938.7699999999995,"text":"那監察院覺得說"},{"start":6938.7699999999995,"end":6941.67,"text":"這一個對於一審判決結果絕對不符"},{"start":6941.67,"end":6943.7699999999995,"text":"這個必須要當初的調查監委"},{"start":6943.7699999999995,"end":6944.7699999999995,"text":"或是新任的監委"},{"start":6944.7699999999995,"end":6947.87,"text":"在20天內決定是否上訴"},{"start":6947.87,"end":6949.7699999999995,"text":"如果到時候沒有監察委員了"},{"start":6949.7699999999995,"end":6950.2699999999995,"text":"那怎麼辦"},{"start":6951.150000000001,"end":6952.95,"text":"對了 所以我覺得"},{"start":6952.95,"end":6955.45,"text":"如果讓監察院空窗或者癱瘓"},{"start":6955.45,"end":6957.85,"text":"其實不是全民之福"},{"start":6957.85,"end":6959.95,"text":"所以我們還是希望"},{"start":6959.95,"end":6962.95,"text":"9月29號大家投票的時候"},{"start":6962.95,"end":6963.95,"text":"可以真的"},{"start":6964.51,"end":6965.31,"text":"賓捷"},{"start":6966.370000000001,"end":6967.47,"text":"專業的判斷"},{"start":6967.47,"end":6969.070000000001,"text":"然後全民的福祉"},{"start":6969.070000000001,"end":6971.17,"text":"去考慮這個人事權的問題"},{"start":6971.17,"end":6972.570000000001,"text":"我剛才特別是舉這個"},{"start":6972.570000000001,"end":6973.27,"text":"楊振宇這個案子"},{"start":6973.27,"end":6974.27,"text":"因為大家重視"},{"start":6974.27,"end":6976.870000000001,"text":"他就變成一個無解"},{"start":6976.870000000001,"end":6978.77,"text":"就是沒有辦法處理的問題"},{"start":6978.77,"end":6980.070000000001,"text":"沒有監察委員可以"},{"start":6980.070000000001,"end":6982.17,"text":"可以決定說是否要提上訴"},{"start":6983.110000000001,"end":6986.41,"text":"那接下來人民陳情案怎麼做處理"},{"start":6986.41,"end":6987.41,"text":"如果沒有監察院了"},{"start":6987.41,"end":6989.21,"text":"就沒辦法處理了"},{"start":6989.21,"end":6989.71,"text":"就沒辦法"},{"start":6989.71,"end":6991.110000000001,"text":"可以收件但是沒辦法處理"},{"start":6992.02,"end":6994.12,"text":"現在就沒有人能夠調查"},{"start":6994.12,"end":6994.92,"text":"沒有人能夠調查"},{"start":6994.92,"end":6995.82,"text":"因為沒有監察委員"},{"start":6995.82,"end":6997.42,"text":"沒有人能指揮辦案"},{"start":6997.42,"end":6998.22,"text":"對"},{"start":6998.22,"end":7000.42,"text":"但是大概"},{"start":7000.42,"end":7001.62,"text":"除了收件之外"},{"start":7001.62,"end":7003.22,"text":"那大概就是案子就躺在那邊"},{"start":7003.22,"end":7005.12,"text":"也沒辦法做任何的審理"},{"start":7005.12,"end":7006.12,"text":"所以我覺得"},{"start":7007.1,"end":7008.1,"text":"人民的"},{"start":7009.400000000001,"end":7012.1,"text":"深淵無處可深"},{"start":7012.1,"end":7013.6,"text":"這個是社會的損失"},{"start":7014.43,"end":7016.43,"text":"所以這個"},{"start":7016.43,"end":7017.23,"text":"我們所講的"},{"start":7017.23,"end":7019.13,"text":"監察院一般賦予的期待"},{"start":7019.13,"end":7020.13,"text":"彈劾"},{"start":7020.13,"end":7021.03,"text":"究舉"},{"start":7021.03,"end":7021.93,"text":"糾正"},{"start":7021.93,"end":7022.93,"text":"完全都停擺了"},{"start":7023.89,"end":7025.09,"text":"因為沒有監察委員"},{"start":7025.09,"end":7027.09,"text":"對啊就停擺了"},{"start":7027.09,"end":7027.99,"text":"那現在"},{"start":7027.99,"end":7029.79,"text":"年底要選縣市長選舉了"},{"start":7029.79,"end":7031.29,"text":"那當然現在我看很多候選人"},{"start":7031.29,"end":7033.69,"text":"都已經就申請了政治獻金了"},{"start":7033.69,"end":7034.49,"text":"那政治獻金"},{"start":7034.49,"end":7036.29,"text":"當然現在要申請是可以"},{"start":7036.29,"end":7037.59,"text":"但是如果政治獻金"},{"start":7037.59,"end":7040.49,"text":"未來相關有發現一些問題"},{"start":7040.49,"end":7041.59,"text":"相關的裁罰"},{"start":7041.59,"end":7043.29,"text":"還是要有監察委員"},{"start":7043.29,"end":7045.29,"text":"所以陽光法案就也停擺了"},{"start":7045.29,"end":7046.89,"text":"陽光法案也停擺了"},{"start":7046.89,"end":7050.39,"text":"我是覺得不應該讓監察院停擺"},{"start":7050.39,"end":7051.59,"text":"所以所以我講的"},{"start":7051.59,"end":7052.49,"text":"就是說"},{"start":7052.49,"end":7054.49,"text":"這個大家期待監察院要有作為"},{"start":7054.49,"end":7056.49,"text":"但是監察委員他不讓你通過"},{"start":7056.49,"end":7058.09,"text":"那我們所講的這個陽光事法"},{"start":7058.09,"end":7059.79,"text":"也都停擺了"},{"start":7059.79,"end":7061.79,"text":"然後監察院要做的這個彈劾"},{"start":7061.79,"end":7062.59,"text":"糾正 糾舉"},{"start":7062.59,"end":7063.889999999999,"text":"也完全沒辦法做了"},{"start":7063.889999999999,"end":7064.99,"text":"那更不用說這個"},{"start":7064.99,"end":7066.389999999999,"text":"國家認清委員會"},{"start":7066.389999999999,"end":7067.889999999999,"text":"也沒有了嘛對不對"},{"start":7067.889999999999,"end":7069.59,"text":"我說監察院需要改"},{"start":7074.84,"end":7076.74,"text":"好 謝謝李委員"},{"start":7076.74,"end":7078.74,"text":"謝謝陳佩提名人"},{"start":7078.74,"end":7080.24,"text":"報告全院委員會"},{"start":7080.76,"end":7085.06,"text":"對監察院院長被提名人陳詠勳"},{"start":7085.06,"end":7087.56,"text":"詢答部分到此為止"},{"start":7087.56,"end":7090.66,"text":"謝謝陳佩提名人列席答詢"},{"start":7090.66,"end":7091.76,"text":"報告全院委員會"},{"start":7091.76,"end":7095.26,"text":"現在休息十分鐘休息之後"},{"start":7095.26,"end":7098.46,"text":"進行對監察院副院長被提名人"},{"start":7098.46,"end":7100.16,"text":"王榮章質詢問"},{"start":7100.16,"end":7101.16,"text":"現在休息"},{"start":7671.14,"end":7672.4400000000005,"text":"報告全院委員會"},{"start":7672.4400000000005,"end":7674.54,"text":"現在繼續開會"},{"start":7675.29,"end":7676.79,"text":"審查監察委員"},{"start":7676.79,"end":7678.69,"text":"並為副院長被提名人"},{"start":7678.69,"end":7681.389999999999,"text":"王榮章質資格相關事項"},{"start":7682.17,"end":7684.87,"text":"請被提名人王榮章先生"},{"start":7684.87,"end":7687.37,"text":"就發言台前說明"},{"start":7687.37,"end":7688.969999999999,"text":"時間為十分鐘"},{"start":7703.200000000001,"end":7706.400000000001,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士 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8174.379999999999,"text":"向各位委員說明"},{"start":8175.02,"end":8179.42,"text":"為究竟使用監察院內的理髮部"},{"start":8179.42,"end":8183.72,"text":"是因為他的設備跟本人的障礙限制"},{"start":8183.72,"end":8186.02,"text":"無法融合使用"},{"start":8186.02,"end":8189.92,"text":"當天因為公務會議臨時取消而提前下班"},{"start":8189.92,"end":8192.62,"text":"途中順道到鄰近店家理髮"},{"start":8193.4,"end":8197.4,"text":"所有公務車使用的油料保險維修費用"},{"start":8197.4,"end":8199.4,"text":"均由本人自行負擔"},{"start":8199.4,"end":8201.9,"text":"沒有造成公務資源損害"},{"start":8201.9,"end":8205.4,"text":"這輛配屬的車輛從107年到114年"},{"start":8205.4,"end":8208.8,"text":"立法院通過的監察院法定預算"},{"start":8208.8,"end":8210.9,"text":"公務車輛名系表中"},{"start":8210.9,"end":8213.6,"text":"均將其列為首長專用車"},{"start":8213.6,"end":8216.5,"text":"而非統一調派的車輛"},{"start":8216.5,"end":8218.9,"text":"在15年4月修正"},{"start":8218.9,"end":8222.9,"text":"監察院公務車輛及駕駛人員管理要點之前"},{"start":8222.9,"end":8228.9,"text":"監察委員用車是按照監察院監察委員使用車輛規定"},{"start":8228.9,"end":8231.4,"text":"這顯示內部的管理"},{"start":8231.4,"end":8234.9,"text":"和外部監督標準存有確實的落差"},{"start":8234.9,"end":8236.4,"text":"本人願意接受指教"},{"start":8236.4,"end":8238.9,"text":"並且支持更透明"},{"start":8240.1,"end":8242.6,"text":"一致的公務車管理制度"},{"start":8242.6,"end":8245.1,"text":"未來若承擔副院長職責"},{"start":8245.1,"end":8248.1,"text":"我會以謙卑專業與堅定的態度"},{"start":8248.1,"end":8250.1,"text":"相助院長尊重委員"},{"start":8250.1,"end":8251.1,"text":"服務人民"},{"start":8251.1,"end":8254.1,"text":"讓監察院與國家人權委員會"},{"start":8254.1,"end":8256.6,"text":"成為人民信賴社會期待"},{"start":8256.6,"end":8260.1,"text":"並能夠持續推動民主深化的重要機制"},{"start":8260.1,"end":8261.1,"text":"以上報告"},{"start":8261.1,"end":8263.6,"text":"敬請主席及各位委員指教"},{"start":8263.6,"end":8264.6,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8265.15,"end":8265.65,"text":"好"},{"start":8266,"end":8268.5,"text":"謝謝王貝提名人"},{"start":8273.29,"end":8275.79,"text":"現在進行委員詢問"},{"start":8275.79,"end":8278.79,"text":"首先請王委員事間詢問"},{"start":8309.7,"end":8311.2,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":8312.86,"end":8314.36,"text":"東東雲"},{"start":8316.13,"end":8319.63,"text":"其實我個人對監察院的主張"},{"start":8319.88,"end":8322.88,"text":"一直是我們民進黨從創黨以來"},{"start":8323.24,"end":8327.74,"text":"所認為的就是要廢除監察院考試院"},{"start":8329.58,"end":8331.08,"text":"我現在這個看法沒有變"},{"start":8331.93,"end":8332.93,"text":"但是既然"},{"start":8333.7,"end":8335.7,"text":"我們體制上走到今天"},{"start":8336.37,"end":8339.37,"text":"監察院因為要修憲才能廢"},{"start":8339.37,"end":8340.87,"text":"這個工程浩大"},{"start":8340.87,"end":8343.87,"text":"還沒能廢除之前"},{"start":8344.74,"end":8346.24,"text":"那我們一樣"},{"start":8346.63,"end":8349.63,"text":"我們執政的民進黨要負起這個責任"},{"start":8349.63,"end":8352.13,"text":"當然就要提名監察委員"},{"start":8352.13,"end":8354.63,"text":"監察院院長副院長"},{"start":8354.63,"end":8358.63,"text":"讓體制正常的能夠來運行"},{"start":8358.63,"end":8360.13,"text":"這是對的啦"},{"start":8360.13,"end":8361.13,"text":"所以在我的看法"},{"start":8361.98,"end":8363.48,"text":"如果我不得不"},{"start":8363.48,"end":8366.48,"text":"要繼續維持監察院的話"},{"start":8366.48,"end":8372.98,"text":"我認為您確實是最適合的監察委員"},{"start":8372.98,"end":8377.48,"text":"甚至您現在要被推舉為副院長"},{"start":8377.48,"end":8382.48,"text":"所以我以下就以副院長來對您做稱呼"},{"start":8383.14,"end":8384.14,"text":"那個王副院長"},{"start":8385.18,"end":8387.18,"text":"這個我很肯定"},{"start":8387.18,"end":8389.18,"text":"你過去長年以來"},{"start":8389.18,"end":8390.18,"text":"包括在立法院"},{"start":8391.96,"end":8393.96,"text":"以及現在在監察院"},{"start":8393.96,"end":8396.96,"text":"兼任國家人權委員一樣"},{"start":8396.96,"end":8400.96,"text":"就是說你長年對身障者權益"},{"start":8401.47,"end":8406.47,"text":"對弱勢團體他們的權益的保障"},{"start":8406.47,"end":8407.47,"text":"你確實是"},{"start":8407.95,"end":8409.95,"text":"不遺餘力的在奔走"},{"start":8409.95,"end":8413.95,"text":"那也看到你做到的很多成績"},{"start":8414.46,"end":8418.46,"text":"那我今天要請教你兩個問題"},{"start":8418.75,"end":8421.75,"text":"就是關於身心障礙者"},{"start":8421.75,"end":8423.75,"text":"他們的人權保障"},{"start":8423.75,"end":8428.75,"text":"如何加強身心障礙者他們的人權"},{"start":8428.92,"end":8431.92,"text":"因為我們知道現在有許多"},{"start":8431.92,"end":8434.92,"text":"是在法律上已經訂定"},{"start":8435.79,"end":8438.79,"text":"對於身障者他們有保障"},{"start":8438.79,"end":8441.79,"text":"但是實際生活上面"},{"start":8442.26,"end":8445.26,"text":"卻是沒有真正落實的"},{"start":8445.26,"end":8446.26,"text":"比方說"},{"start":8446.22,"end":8447.22,"text":"比方說"},{"start":8447.22,"end":8452.22,"text":"身心障礙者他們的自立生活"},{"start":8452.22,"end":8454.22,"text":"這個部分我們在"},{"start":8454.22,"end":8456.22,"text":"不管是長照的時數也好"},{"start":8457.02,"end":8460.02,"text":"其他各方面交通的服務也好"},{"start":8460.02,"end":8461.02,"text":"我就舉例"},{"start":8462.44,"end":8464.44,"text":"身心障礙者自立生活"},{"start":8464.44,"end":8466.44,"text":"他們最需要的就是"},{"start":8466.44,"end":8468.44,"text":"就學"},{"start":8468.75,"end":8469.75,"text":"就學"},{"start":8470.12,"end":8471.12,"text":"就學"},{"start":8471.35,"end":8473.35,"text":"這三個部分"},{"start":8473.35,"end":8475.35,"text":"我們並沒有增加"},{"start":8475.35,"end":8477.35,"text":"在這一個部分"},{"start":8477.35,"end":8480.35,"text":"應該對他們的長照的時數"},{"start":8480.35,"end":8483.35,"text":"交通工具的時數"},{"start":8483.35,"end":8485.35,"text":"來增加對他們的"},{"start":8485.35,"end":8488.35,"text":"這部分權利的保障"},{"start":8488.35,"end":8489.35,"text":"所以這個部分我希望"},{"start":8490.37,"end":8494.37,"text":"那未來你在監察院副院長的"},{"start":8494.37,"end":8498.37,"text":"這個位置上能夠多多去推動"},{"start":8498.37,"end":8500.37,"text":"去要求相關部會"},{"start":8500.37,"end":8504.37,"text":"他們在身心障礙者自立生活上面"},{"start":8504.37,"end":8507.37,"text":"給予他們這一些加強"},{"start":8507.37,"end":8508.37,"text":"就是就學"},{"start":8509.49,"end":8510.49,"text":"就業"},{"start":8510.8,"end":8513.8,"text":"就讓身心障礙者"},{"start":8513.8,"end":8516.8,"text":"跟我們一般所有國民一樣"},{"start":8516.8,"end":8518.8,"text":"都能夠自立生活"},{"start":8518.8,"end":8519.8,"text":"第二點"},{"start":8521.11,"end":8525.11,"text":"希望你能做到的就是數位化時代"},{"start":8526.26,"end":8528.26,"text":"這個時候的身心障礙"},{"start":8529.6,"end":8530.6,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8530.92,"end":8533.92,"text":"那麼我們知道政府的服務"},{"start":8535.05,"end":8537.05,"text":"快速的數位化"},{"start":8537.41,"end":8541.41,"text":"像線上申辦數位身份證"},{"start":8541.41,"end":8545.41,"text":"金融服務醫療服務人工智慧的應用"},{"start":8546.61,"end":8547.61,"text":"我覺得越來越多"},{"start":8547.61,"end":8549.61,"text":"這是好事"},{"start":8549.61,"end":8553.61,"text":"但是當政府在快速數位化的時候"},{"start":8553.61,"end":8554.61,"text":"事無"},{"start":8555.98,"end":8557.98,"text":"都忘了生障者他們"},{"start":8558.71,"end":8559.71,"text":"也就是說"},{"start":8559.71,"end":8561.71,"text":"政府在做這件事情的時候"},{"start":8561.71,"end":8562.71,"text":"是很快速喔"},{"start":8563.74,"end":8566.74,"text":"但是有很多障礙者"},{"start":8566.74,"end":8568.74,"text":"因為他身體的障礙"},{"start":8568.74,"end":8572.74,"text":"其實他沒有辦法去使用數位工具"},{"start":8573.85,"end":8575.85,"text":"所以我就是希望說"},{"start":8575.85,"end":8578.85,"text":"那當這個快速數位化的時候"},{"start":8578.85,"end":8581.85,"text":"那麼因為他的障礙"},{"start":8581.85,"end":8584.85,"text":"而無法使用數位工具的人"},{"start":8585.46,"end":8587.46,"text":"那是不是有什麼方式"},{"start":8587.46,"end":8592.46,"text":"應該要求政府讓他們能夠取得公共服務"},{"start":8593.59,"end":8597.59,"text":"就是在這個數位化時代的時候"},{"start":8597.59,"end":8599.59,"text":"我們身心障礙著他們的人權"},{"start":8600.76,"end":8605.76,"text":"這個部分我希望你有辦法能夠把它加強"},{"start":8605.76,"end":8608.76,"text":"這個部分王副院長你看法呢"},{"start":8609.93,"end":8614.93,"text":"謝謝王委員的肯定指教"},{"start":8615.97,"end":8617.97,"text":"我想我非常同意就是說"},{"start":8617.97,"end":8620.97,"text":"在身心障礙者這一個部分"},{"start":8620.97,"end":8623.97,"text":"很多的就是說需求我們在"},{"start":8623.97,"end":8626.97,"text":"我們的國內現行的法規裡面"},{"start":8626.97,"end":8628.97,"text":"有規定就是說要保障"},{"start":8628.97,"end":8630.97,"text":"但是沒有辦法落實"},{"start":8630.97,"end":8634.97,"text":"那我也非常同意您的意見"},{"start":8634.97,"end":8636.97,"text":"在這個部分的話"},{"start":8636.97,"end":8638.97,"text":"那很重要的一個基本的原則"},{"start":8638.97,"end":8640.97,"text":"什麼樣子落實"},{"start":8640.97,"end":8642.97,"text":"除了我們現有的就是說"},{"start":8642.97,"end":8644.97,"text":"各項法律的規定"},{"start":8644.97,"end":8646.97,"text":"無論在人權法裡面"},{"start":8646.97,"end":8649.97,"text":"然後或者是在我們的特教法裡面"},{"start":8649.97,"end":8652.97,"text":"我們的就是說就業相關的"},{"start":8652.97,"end":8656.97,"text":"就是說法規裡面的這個部分能夠落實"},{"start":8656.97,"end":8658.97,"text":"更重要的一個部分是"},{"start":8660.04,"end":8662.04,"text":"身心障礙者權利公約"},{"start":8662.04,"end":8664.04,"text":"聯合國身心障礙者權利公約"},{"start":8664.04,"end":8669.04,"text":"CRPD所掘式的就是說這一些的保障的內容"},{"start":8669.04,"end":8672.04,"text":"等等能夠在台灣能夠落地生根"},{"start":8672.04,"end":8675.04,"text":"因為我們政府其實政府在這個部分"},{"start":8675.04,"end":8679.04,"text":"數位的部分是已經越做越好越做越快"},{"start":8679.04,"end":8682.04,"text":"到時候都是數位優先"},{"start":8682.04,"end":8685.04,"text":"甚至數位為一"},{"start":8685.04,"end":8687.04,"text":"當數位為一的時候"},{"start":8687.04,"end":8690.04,"text":"那麼這個有身障者"},{"start":8690.04,"end":8694.04,"text":"確實他沒有辦法使用到這些數位工具"},{"start":8694.04,"end":8695.04,"text":"所以王副院長"},{"start":8695.04,"end":8699.04,"text":"我希望你這一部分能夠積極具體的"},{"start":8699.04,"end":8703.04,"text":"在你副院長任內積極的去幫身心障礙者"},{"start":8703.04,"end":8706.04,"text":"去爭取去保護他們"},{"start":8706.04,"end":8709.04,"text":"那我只有一項跟你是截然不同的看法"},{"start":8709.04,"end":8712.04,"text":"因為你身兼國家人權委員"},{"start":8712.04,"end":8714.04,"text":"那我看到你們過去的一些成績"},{"start":8714.04,"end":8716.04,"text":"其實過去的一些成績"},{"start":8716.04,"end":8720.04,"text":"你任內實現職業性別平等"},{"start":8720.04,"end":8722.04,"text":"在職場上的性別平等"},{"start":8722.04,"end":8725.04,"text":"促進兒少人權這些都很正面"},{"start":8725.37,"end":8727.37,"text":"這些都非常正面"},{"start":8727.37,"end":8731.37,"text":"但是每一年你們這些報告裡面都會扯到"},{"start":8731.37,"end":8735.37,"text":"就是關於廢死廢除死刑"},{"start":8735.37,"end":8738.37,"text":"這一點我跟你們看法截然不同"},{"start":8738.37,"end":8741.37,"text":"那我舉一兩句我認為"},{"start":8741.92,"end":8742.92,"text":"這實在是"},{"start":8743.68,"end":8748.68,"text":"你認為我們全體人民認為這有沒有道理"},{"start":8748.68,"end":8754.68,"text":"說要廢除死刑是要維護生命權與人性尊嚴"},{"start":8756.08,"end":8761.08,"text":"廢除死刑是要維護生命權與人性尊嚴"},{"start":8761.48,"end":8763.48,"text":"副院長我請教你"},{"start":8763.71,"end":8769.71,"text":"當被害人他的生命權被加害人剝奪了"},{"start":8771.08,"end":8776.08,"text":"他的人性尊嚴被加害人完全摧毀了"},{"start":8776.08,"end":8780.08,"text":"我們還在保護加害人什麼生命權"},{"start":8780.08,"end":8783.08,"text":"什麼他的生命尊嚴不是嗎"},{"start":8783.08,"end":8787.08,"text":"當他剝奪了別人的生命權還有生命尊嚴的時候"},{"start":8787.08,"end":8789.08,"text":"他就不夠格"},{"start":8790.29,"end":8793.29,"text":"有生命權跟他的人性尊嚴"},{"start":8794.67,"end":8795.67,"text":"就是這個陣燙"},{"start":8801.56,"end":8802.06,"text":"是這個"},{"start":8802.99,"end":8803.99,"text":"抱歉"},{"start":8804.07,"end":8806.07,"text":"我在七個三秒鐘"},{"start":8812.41,"end":8813.41,"text":"我們要還"},{"start":8814.15,"end":8816.15,"text":"被害人一個公道"},{"start":8816.51,"end":8819.51,"text":"這就是司法正義最重要的目標"},{"start":8820.32,"end":8821.32,"text":"別拿一不小心"},{"start":8822.72,"end":8825.72,"text":"為什麼古代殺人償命"},{"start":8827.16,"end":8829.16,"text":"這是天經地義的道理嗎"},{"start":8830.33,"end":8831.33,"text":"不是這樣嗎"},{"start":8831.9,"end":8833.9,"text":"什麼罪就是什麼罰"},{"start":8834.75,"end":8836.75,"text":"罪與罰要等量"},{"start":8836.75,"end":8839.75,"text":"當這個罪與罰越來越加重"},{"start":8839.75,"end":8842.75,"text":"重道最大惡極罪無可換"},{"start":8844.22,"end":8847.22,"text":"都已經殺人甚至毀屍"},{"start":8848.07,"end":8849.07,"text":"長得"},{"start":8849.7,"end":8852.7,"text":"強姦這些惡行"},{"start":8852.7,"end":8855.7,"text":"導致加害人受害"},{"start":8855.7,"end":8857.7,"text":"被害人受害致死的時候"},{"start":8857.7,"end":8859.7,"text":"這些都已經"},{"start":8859.7,"end":8862.7,"text":"我們現在國內有37個案例"},{"start":8863.84,"end":8866.84,"text":"已經判刑確定"},{"start":8866.84,"end":8868.84,"text":"都已經罪證確鑿喔"},{"start":8869.23,"end":8871.23,"text":"結果還拖在那裡"},{"start":8871.13,"end":8872.13,"text":"就是因為敗"},{"start":8873.16,"end":8875.16,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8874.21,"end":8876.21,"text":"人權團體之勢"},{"start":8876.13,"end":8878.13,"text":"這些廢死團體之勢"},{"start":8878.91,"end":8881.91,"text":"我在質問法務部長的時候"},{"start":8881.91,"end":8884.91,"text":"我看到他臉上那種很驚恐"},{"start":8884.91,"end":8886.91,"text":"很無奈的表情"},{"start":8886.91,"end":8889.91,"text":"我就知道他背後一定有這些壓力"},{"start":8890.76,"end":8891.76,"text":"所以副院長"},{"start":8891.76,"end":8893.76,"text":"我希望在這一個部分"},{"start":8893.76,"end":8895.76,"text":"您能夠好好思考思考"},{"start":8895.76,"end":8898.76,"text":"現在百分之根據你自己的報告"},{"start":8898.76,"end":8900.76,"text":"你說百分之七十以上"},{"start":8900.76,"end":8902.76,"text":"我們台灣人民堅持"},{"start":8902.76,"end":8905.76,"text":"爭取主張廢除死刑"},{"start":8905.76,"end":8906.76,"text":"那更新的報告"},{"start":8906.76,"end":8908.76,"text":"法務部的報告"},{"start":8908.76,"end":8909.76,"text":"百分之九十一"},{"start":8909.76,"end":8912.76,"text":"我們的台灣人民主張死刑"},{"start":8912.76,"end":8914.76,"text":"反對廢死"},{"start":8914.76,"end":8915.76,"text":"這個部分"},{"start":8915.76,"end":8917.76,"text":"我希望你帶回去衡量一下"},{"start":8933.72,"end":8935.72,"text":"謝謝王委員"},{"start":8935.72,"end":8939.72,"text":"下一位請翁曉玲委員詢問"},{"start":8959.19,"end":8960.19,"text":"主席好"},{"start":8960.19,"end":8962.19,"text":"在座的王委員"},{"start":8962.19,"end":8966.19,"text":"被提名為副院長候選人的王委員您好"},{"start":8967.05,"end":8968.05,"text":"我想"},{"start":8968.05,"end":8971.05,"text":"首先我想跟王委員表達"},{"start":8971.05,"end":8974.05,"text":"我看到這一次賴靜德總統"},{"start":8974.05,"end":8977.05,"text":"他提名的監委的名單"},{"start":8977.05,"end":8978.05,"text":"坦白說"},{"start":8978.05,"end":8980.05,"text":"我看到您和另外六位委員"},{"start":8980.05,"end":8983.05,"text":"繼續被賴總統提名留任"},{"start":8983.05,"end":8986.05,"text":"我感到還蠻驚訝的"},{"start":8986.05,"end":8989.05,"text":"因為第六屆監察委員的表現"},{"start":8989.05,"end":8991.05,"text":"可以說是差強人意"},{"start":8991.05,"end":8992.05,"text":"不僅是辦案績效"},{"start":8992.05,"end":8995.05,"text":"還有在監委的自律方面"},{"start":8995.05,"end":8997.05,"text":"都出了很大的問題"},{"start":8997.05,"end":8998.05,"text":"狀況連連"},{"start":8998.05,"end":9002.05,"text":"但是賴靜德總統還是繼續提名了"},{"start":9002.05,"end":9005.05,"text":"在第六屆包含您在內的七名委員"},{"start":9005.05,"end":9007.05,"text":"繼續留任"},{"start":9007.05,"end":9009.05,"text":"近期有一篇媒體報導說"},{"start":9009.05,"end":9014.05,"text":"其實王委員您在監察院的監察績效"},{"start":9014.05,"end":9019.05,"text":"是位居第六屆監委的最後一名"},{"start":9019.05,"end":9023.05,"text":"您的調查案件數量是全院倒數第一"},{"start":9023.05,"end":9025.05,"text":"只有六年當中"},{"start":9025.05,"end":9028.05,"text":"只有參與25間的調查報告"},{"start":9028.05,"end":9032.05,"text":"比倒數第二名的監察委員的76件"},{"start":9032.05,"end":9034.05,"text":"就相差了50件以上"},{"start":9034.05,"end":9036.05,"text":"您做成的彈劾案也只有一件"},{"start":9036.05,"end":9037.05,"text":"糾成案只有六件"},{"start":9037.05,"end":9039.05,"text":"甚至有半年的時間"},{"start":9039.05,"end":9042.05,"text":"是根本沒有處理過任何一個案子"},{"start":9042.05,"end":9045.05,"text":"當然您還因為公務車的使用的問題"},{"start":9045.05,"end":9049.05,"text":"後來還被監察院有要求要促及注意"},{"start":9049.05,"end":9051.05,"text":"所以我想是不是可以請王委員"},{"start":9051.05,"end":9053.05,"text":"王委員您可以告訴我們為什麼"},{"start":9054.72,"end":9060.72,"text":"您的調查案件數字這麼低的原因是什麼"},{"start":9060.72,"end":9063.72,"text":"還有您對於公務車使用的爭議"},{"start":9063.72,"end":9064.72,"text":"您有沒有什麼話要說"},{"start":9065.47,"end":9069.47,"text":"謝謝王委員的提問"},{"start":9069.47,"end":9071.47,"text":"在這一個部分的話"},{"start":9071.47,"end":9075.47,"text":"我想我在回答我們國民黨團所提出的"},{"start":9075.47,"end":9077.47,"text":"書面詢問的這個部分"},{"start":9077.47,"end":9079.47,"text":"有做了回答剛剛的口頭報告"},{"start":9079.47,"end":9081.47,"text":"我也簡單的做了說明"},{"start":9081.47,"end":9083.47,"text":"簡單的講就是說兩個問題"},{"start":9083.47,"end":9087.47,"text":"第一個是針對調查案件數量的這一個部分"},{"start":9087.47,"end":9090.47,"text":"確實就是說在這六年裡面"},{"start":9090.47,"end":9095.47,"text":"所以為一共數字上面的話是31件"},{"start":9095.96,"end":9097.96,"text":"31件的這個部分"},{"start":9097.96,"end":9100.96,"text":"當然也同樣的就是您剛剛講的"},{"start":9100.96,"end":9104.96,"text":"在所有的委員裡面的話是最少的"},{"start":9104.96,"end":9106.96,"text":"為什麼會這樣子做"},{"start":9106.96,"end":9108.96,"text":"最主要的情況跟原因"},{"start":9108.96,"end":9114.96,"text":"我希望就是說在人權委員的這一個部分的工作上面"},{"start":9114.96,"end":9116.96,"text":"能夠符合巴黎原則"},{"start":9116.96,"end":9121.96,"text":"要求就是說人權委員必須是專職"},{"start":9121.96,"end":9124.96,"text":"所以當然我們知道就是說總統的提名"},{"start":9124.96,"end":9129.96,"text":"我們是監察委員兼國家人權委員會委員"},{"start":9129.96,"end":9131.96,"text":"在這樣的情況裡面的話"},{"start":9131.96,"end":9134.96,"text":"我低度的參與監察調查的工作"},{"start":9134.96,"end":9139.96,"text":"我把主要的行李跟工作時間放在人權委員的部分"},{"start":9139.96,"end":9140.96,"text":"那對於您在公務車使用的部分"},{"start":9140.96,"end":9141.96,"text":"是不是可以講一下為什麼"},{"start":9141.96,"end":9142.96,"text":"公務車的這一個"},{"start":9142.96,"end":9145.96,"text":"您覺得這個監察院所做出的這樣的一個"},{"start":9145.96,"end":9147.96,"text":"只是促其注意"},{"start":9147.96,"end":9149.96,"text":"請你們要注意這件事情"},{"start":9149.96,"end":9152.96,"text":"那對於像是前秘書長李俊毅"},{"start":9152.96,"end":9155.96,"text":"他拍拍屁股辭職之後就毫不追究"},{"start":9155.96,"end":9158.96,"text":"您對於像這樣子的做法您認同嗎"},{"start":9160.79,"end":9163.79,"text":"好 我先說明一個部分的話"},{"start":9163.79,"end":9165.79,"text":"就是說我們的公務車使用"},{"start":9165.79,"end":9169.79,"text":"跟立法院立法委員的公務車使用是不同的"},{"start":9169.79,"end":9174.79,"text":"從我能夠有限的收集到107年到114年"},{"start":9174.79,"end":9176.79,"text":"也就是到去年為止"},{"start":9176.79,"end":9179.79,"text":"立法院通過的"},{"start":9179.79,"end":9181.79,"text":"我們的就是說公務車的使用"},{"start":9181.79,"end":9185.79,"text":"在這一個部分預算審查通過的這個部分"},{"start":9185.79,"end":9187.79,"text":"都是首長坐車"},{"start":9187.79,"end":9190.79,"text":"那就是說我想我之所以沒有辦法"},{"start":9190.79,"end":9193.79,"text":"跟在擔任立法委員的時候一樣"},{"start":9193.79,"end":9197.79,"text":"所使用院內的理髮部"},{"start":9197.79,"end":9200.79,"text":"主要的原因是因為監察院"},{"start":9200.79,"end":9201.79,"text":"我想這個部分"},{"start":9201.79,"end":9203.79,"text":"這個委員我想一個時間我有限"},{"start":9203.79,"end":9206.79,"text":"我只是要講就是說其實就連監察院"},{"start":9206.79,"end":9208.79,"text":"也都認為說你們這樣子的一個"},{"start":9208.79,"end":9210.79,"text":"濫用公務車的行為是不當的"},{"start":9210.79,"end":9213.79,"text":"那我要講就是我們如果看看"},{"start":9213.79,"end":9216.79,"text":"在過去如果說有其他的政府機關的官員"},{"start":9216.79,"end":9219.79,"text":"因為濫用公務車都有可能會被判刑"},{"start":9219.79,"end":9221.79,"text":"然後被懲處被彈劾"},{"start":9221.79,"end":9224.79,"text":"對這種案例是非常之多"},{"start":9224.79,"end":9227.79,"text":"但是我們相對看看我們監察委員對自己"},{"start":9227.79,"end":9231.79,"text":"則是非常的這個寬容寬待"},{"start":9231.79,"end":9233.79,"text":"那麼只是促其注意"},{"start":9233.79,"end":9237.79,"text":"那甚至對於這個監察院前秘書長李俊義的"},{"start":9237.79,"end":9240.79,"text":"這樣子一個帶狗去美容的"},{"start":9240.79,"end":9242.79,"text":"送狗去美容的這樣的一個行為"},{"start":9242.79,"end":9243.79,"text":"到目前為止都沒有追究"},{"start":9243.79,"end":9246.79,"text":"所以本席認為說難怪就是大家會對於"},{"start":9246.79,"end":9249.79,"text":"就是監察委員的這樣的一個自律"},{"start":9249.79,"end":9251.79,"text":"是很無法信任的"},{"start":9251.79,"end":9254.79,"text":"更何況您剛剛講的有關於調查的問題"},{"start":9254.79,"end":9256.79,"text":"就是您的這個調查案件的問題"},{"start":9256.79,"end":9258.79,"text":"我覺得這不能說是因為您擔任"},{"start":9258.79,"end":9260.79,"text":"國家人權委員會的委員"},{"start":9260.79,"end":9261.79,"text":"然後就有這樣的藉口"},{"start":9261.79,"end":9263.79,"text":"因為畢竟還有其他的委員"},{"start":9263.79,"end":9265.79,"text":"也是擔任國家人權委員會的委員"},{"start":9265.79,"end":9268.79,"text":"我想就這個部分來講的話"},{"start":9268.79,"end":9271.79,"text":"假設您有幸在被提名為"},{"start":9271.79,"end":9273.79,"text":"擔任這個監察院副院長的話"},{"start":9273.79,"end":9275.79,"text":"我認為說這部分一定要改善的"},{"start":9275.79,"end":9279.79,"text":"那當然就是說對像對於這個陳菊院長這種請閉假"},{"start":9279.79,"end":9281.79,"text":"不上班超過一年"},{"start":9281.79,"end":9283.79,"text":"花費公務事務書餐的情形"},{"start":9283.79,"end":9285.79,"text":"您是否認同陳菊這樣的做法"},{"start":9287.17,"end":9291.17,"text":"陳菊院長在這一個部分的請假"},{"start":9291.17,"end":9295.17,"text":"她因為她的身體狀況跟我提請假的原因"},{"start":9295.17,"end":9297.17,"text":"但是一年超過一年不上班"},{"start":9297.17,"end":9299.17,"text":"你用同這樣的做法嗎"},{"start":9299.17,"end":9303.17,"text":"您是不是認為說其實連政務人員請假都應該要規範"},{"start":9303.17,"end":9306.17,"text":"如何我們居於公務人員並駕的就是說相關的規定"},{"start":9306.17,"end":9309.17,"text":"這是合法合規的就是說的方式"},{"start":9309.17,"end":9312.17,"text":"至於就是說不應該我想社會有公平"},{"start":9312.17,"end":9315.17,"text":"然後在這個部分來說"},{"start":9315.17,"end":9319.17,"text":"我想大家社會上面都有公平確實是沒錯"},{"start":9319.17,"end":9322.17,"text":"大家都認為說作為一個高官一個政務高官"},{"start":9322.17,"end":9325.17,"text":"然後竟然可以一年半不上班"},{"start":9325.17,"end":9328.17,"text":"那麼這個施慰素餐的這樣表現其實大家不能接受"},{"start":9328.17,"end":9331.17,"text":"接下來我們再請教王委員就是說"},{"start":9331.17,"end":9334.17,"text":"因為這屆的監察委員給國人的印象就是"},{"start":9334.17,"end":9336.17,"text":"都是辦一些雞毛蒜皮的小案"},{"start":9336.17,"end":9339.17,"text":"譬如說去查這個蘿蔔糕裡面有沒有蘿蔔"},{"start":9339.17,"end":9341.17,"text":"而不去查那些眾所矚目的大案"},{"start":9341.17,"end":9343.17,"text":"像是這個雞蛋的弊案"},{"start":9343.17,"end":9346.17,"text":"疫苗的弊案新竹棒球場的弊案"},{"start":9346.17,"end":9349.17,"text":"甚至就是連最近這兩年像竹榮泰"},{"start":9349.17,"end":9354.17,"text":"賴清德大法官他們根本就是明顯公然的違法違釋的行徑"},{"start":9354.17,"end":9358.17,"text":"然後做出了中華民國行線以來從來沒有過的"},{"start":9358.17,"end":9361.17,"text":"這個行政院長可以不附屬法律可以不依法編列預算"},{"start":9361.17,"end":9363.17,"text":"大法官可以做成五人判決"},{"start":9363.17,"end":9365.17,"text":"賴清德可以不公布法律"},{"start":9365.17,"end":9367.17,"text":"像這樣子的一個大案"},{"start":9367.17,"end":9369.17,"text":"結果屆然監察院不穩不穩"},{"start":9369.17,"end":9375.17,"text":"難怪被人家大家批評說監察院是只打蒼蠅不敢打老虎"},{"start":9375.17,"end":9378.17,"text":"那本席要說的是其實這一屆的監察委員"},{"start":9378.17,"end":9383.17,"text":"讓大家看到的就是基本上已經不是玉石大夫"},{"start":9383.17,"end":9386.17,"text":"而更像是綠色政權的保衛隊"},{"start":9386.17,"end":9391.17,"text":"那王委員我想這個因為本席基本上之前有提出陳情案"},{"start":9391.17,"end":9396.17,"text":"針對竹榮泰的違法失職不附屬法律不依法編列預算有提出陳情案"},{"start":9396.17,"end":9401.17,"text":"那麼沒想到這個我們在你們卸任的最後一天我收到監察院給我的回文"},{"start":9401.17,"end":9403.17,"text":"那上面非常非常簡單"},{"start":9403.17,"end":9404.17,"text":"然後只是說"},{"start":9405.85,"end":9410.85,"text":"這個案經本院司法及御政委員會議決議就不予立案調查"},{"start":9410.85,"end":9413.85,"text":"那隨著這份公文又附上五頁的會議記錄"},{"start":9413.85,"end":9417.85,"text":"而且五頁會議記錄沒有任何的會議理由"},{"start":9417.85,"end":9420.85,"text":"所以也就是說我看到這份公文坦白說我很傻眼"},{"start":9420.85,"end":9424.85,"text":"為什麼因為即便是一般人民的申請書"},{"start":9424.85,"end":9427.85,"text":"訴願書陳述書被駁回或是不予受理"},{"start":9427.85,"end":9429.85,"text":"他都還會有理由"},{"start":9429.85,"end":9432.85,"text":"還會有一個依據什麼法律的這個規定"},{"start":9432.85,"end":9435.85,"text":"所以不予受理或者是被駁回"},{"start":9435.85,"end":9439.85,"text":"可是沒想到監察院的這紙公文卻是這麼的粗糙"},{"start":9439.85,"end":9440.85,"text":"這麼的草率"},{"start":9440.85,"end":9443.85,"text":"這是監察院的作風嗎"},{"start":9443.85,"end":9445.85,"text":"與回文的內容的這個部分"},{"start":9445.85,"end":9447.85,"text":"我同意文委員所說的"},{"start":9447.85,"end":9451.85,"text":"在這個部分的話我們應該更詳細"},{"start":9451.85,"end":9456.85,"text":"那這個部分的話是監察院應該在未來改善的"},{"start":9457.34,"end":9461.34,"text":"至於就是對於不付主的這個部分"},{"start":9461.34,"end":9465.34,"text":"到底就是說是憲法賦予行政院長的職權"},{"start":9465.34,"end":9467.34,"text":"不是卓榮泰先生"},{"start":9467.34,"end":9470.34,"text":"我知道因為這個我看了"},{"start":9470.34,"end":9474.34,"text":"王委員您在回覆國民黨的問卷裡面"},{"start":9474.34,"end":9476.34,"text":"其實請聽我說"},{"start":9476.34,"end":9477.34,"text":"我是由我們來"},{"start":9477.34,"end":9480.34,"text":"是由監察委員來做決定的"},{"start":9480.34,"end":9481.34,"text":"也不是監察院決定的"},{"start":9481.34,"end":9484.34,"text":"我要再講就是我看了王委員您回覆給國民黨的問卷裡面"},{"start":9484.34,"end":9485.34,"text":"其實對於很多的問題"},{"start":9485.34,"end":9488.34,"text":"像是行政院長不附屬法律的問題"},{"start":9488.34,"end":9492.34,"text":"或是大法官為什麼我可以做成五人違憲的判決"},{"start":9492.34,"end":9494.34,"text":"甚至對於像陸配參政這些問題"},{"start":9494.34,"end":9497.34,"text":"您基本上的回答都是千篇一律"},{"start":9497.34,"end":9499.34,"text":"這都是跟監察院的職權無關"},{"start":9499.34,"end":9502.34,"text":"你們不應該先行做處理"},{"start":9502.34,"end":9505.34,"text":"應該要尊重其他的這個機關的職權"},{"start":9505.34,"end":9508.34,"text":"譬如說應該先透過憲法爭議或行政訴訟爭議去解決"},{"start":9508.34,"end":9512.34,"text":"那其實這樣子的一個想法"},{"start":9512.34,"end":9515.34,"text":"這樣的一個做法表態"},{"start":9515.34,"end":9517.34,"text":"難怪大家會譏笑這個監察院"},{"start":9517.34,"end":9523.34,"text":"你們是不是就是基本上只會查像是蘿蔔糕的這種小案"},{"start":9523.34,"end":9526.34,"text":"那如果說你們這一群委員又再繼續留任了"},{"start":9526.34,"end":9530.34,"text":"那未來是不是除了繼續查這個類似像蘿蔔糕的小案"},{"start":9530.34,"end":9533.34,"text":"你們就可以再去查太陽餅有沒有太陽"},{"start":9533.34,"end":9536.34,"text":"牛舌餅有沒有牛舌老婆餅裡面有沒有老婆"},{"start":9536.34,"end":9538.34,"text":"就是查這些案子"},{"start":9538.34,"end":9541.34,"text":"這基本上對於人民來講沒有感"},{"start":9541.34,"end":9548.34,"text":"我要講的是其實在民國46年當時的監察院"},{"start":9548.34,"end":9552.34,"text":"在建言時代都還可以彈劾行政院院長"},{"start":9552.34,"end":9556.34,"text":"可是我沒有看到這一屆的監察院可以去彈劾"},{"start":9556.34,"end":9559.34,"text":"有這個勇氣去彈劾任何的政府高官"},{"start":9559.34,"end":9564.34,"text":"也難怪就是這個監察院被大家介紹成為成功院或者是養老"},{"start":9567.28,"end":9568.28,"text":"謝謝翁美雲"},{"start":9569.98,"end":9572.98,"text":"下一位請蘇巧惠委員詢問"},{"start":9593.57,"end":9595.57,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們請王貝提名人號"},{"start":9596.47,"end":9597.47,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":9597.7,"end":9599.7,"text":"好 那王貝提名人您好"},{"start":9599.7,"end":9603.7,"text":"我想我先從您剛剛提出的口頭報告"},{"start":9603.7,"end":9606.7,"text":"您上面很清楚的一開始就寫到說"},{"start":9606.7,"end":9610.7,"text":"監察院是目前憲政體制中重要的監督機關"},{"start":9610.7,"end":9613.7,"text":"肩負糾正行政失衡保障人民權益"},{"start":9613.7,"end":9617.7,"text":"促進聯能治理與深化人權價值的使命"},{"start":9617.7,"end":9619.7,"text":"所以我想先請教您"},{"start":9619.7,"end":9623.7,"text":"在我們這樣第六屆就是您擔任過監察委員的這一屆當中"},{"start":9623.56,"end":9625.56,"text":"整整六年的時間"},{"start":9625.56,"end":9627.56,"text":"在人民懲刑案件彈劾案件"},{"start":9627.56,"end":9629.56,"text":"糾正案件調查報告的部分成果"},{"start":9629.56,"end":9630.56,"text":"有哪一些成果"},{"start":9630.56,"end":9631.56,"text":"你認為有成果嗎"},{"start":9631.56,"end":9633.56,"text":"因為剛剛被講的一文不值嘛"},{"start":9634.9,"end":9636.9,"text":"我想這幾個部分來講"},{"start":9636.9,"end":9642.9,"text":"第一個部分的話是民眾懲刑的這一個部分"},{"start":9642.9,"end":9650.9,"text":"也就是說我們在這個裡面我們的糾正糾舉彈劾等等的就是說這一個部分"},{"start":9650.9,"end":9652.9,"text":"事實上並不如外界"},{"start":9652.9,"end":9660.9,"text":"剛剛院長被提名人在口頭報告乃至於回答委員的問裡面的話"},{"start":9660.9,"end":9662.9,"text":"都有就是說表示"},{"start":9662.9,"end":9668.9,"text":"裡面有很多的就是說情況跟我們的就是說作為乃至於績效的這一個部分"},{"start":9668.9,"end":9671.9,"text":"外界說沒有辦法完全的知道"},{"start":9671.9,"end":9677.9,"text":"那我想這個是監察院應該要做的就是說改進跟進步調整的這一個部分"},{"start":9677.9,"end":9679.9,"text":"我想就是說案件的這一個部分"},{"start":9679.9,"end":9683.9,"text":"我們對於高階的文官的這一個部分"},{"start":9683.9,"end":9686.9,"text":"我們的彈劾案件的話"},{"start":9686.9,"end":9688.9,"text":"事實上有125件"},{"start":9688.9,"end":9690.9,"text":"到去年底為止"},{"start":9690.9,"end":9692.9,"text":"這個部分的話我還沒有"},{"start":9692.9,"end":9696.9,"text":"監察院還沒有就是說相關的統計報告"},{"start":9696.9,"end":9700.9,"text":"在這裡面的話涉及的人數有205人"},{"start":9700.9,"end":9704.9,"text":"我們在就是說裁罰包括陽光司法的裁罰案件"},{"start":9704.9,"end":9706.9,"text":"一共就是有600件"},{"start":9708.52,"end":9710.52,"text":"那在這樣子的就是說情況裡面"},{"start":9710.52,"end":9712.52,"text":"從數量上面來講"},{"start":9712.52,"end":9716.52,"text":"然後還有彈劾的就是說未接我們到政務委員"},{"start":9716.52,"end":9719.52,"text":"等等就是說這一些的情況"},{"start":9719.52,"end":9722.52,"text":"那糾正的這一個機關的這個部分的話"},{"start":9722.52,"end":9726.52,"text":"我們也達到就是說在韓國改正糾正的的話"},{"start":9726.52,"end":9728.52,"text":"就是說有1600多件"},{"start":9729.06,"end":9732.06,"text":"所以從數量上來講其實是相當的多"},{"start":9732.06,"end":9736.06,"text":"因為我這個我從看到你們的概況統計上面來講"},{"start":9736.06,"end":9738.06,"text":"一直到2016年的6月的話"},{"start":9738.06,"end":9742.06,"text":"你們搜索人民書狀是有甚至9萬1000件"},{"start":9742.06,"end":9745.06,"text":"那彈劾案件糾正案件就如同您剛剛說的"},{"start":9745.06,"end":9748.06,"text":"事實上數量是蠻多的"},{"start":9748.06,"end":9750.06,"text":"那在案件的本身當中"},{"start":9750.06,"end":9753.06,"text":"不管是曾經說到了政務委員的部分"},{"start":9753.06,"end":9754.06,"text":"或者類型的部分"},{"start":9754.06,"end":9757.06,"text":"也是有各種各式各樣的狀況"},{"start":9757.06,"end":9760.06,"text":"我坦白講我的立場其實還是是一致的"},{"start":9760.06,"end":9763.06,"text":"跟我們的立場過去長期一貫主張是一樣"},{"start":9763.06,"end":9768.06,"text":"我們認為其實不需要有監察院跟考試院"},{"start":9768.06,"end":9773.06,"text":"但是我們是就憲政體制五權或三權的分立"},{"start":9773.06,"end":9775.06,"text":"在做討論在做爭辯"},{"start":9775.06,"end":9780.06,"text":"但對於這一些調查的部分彈劾的部分等等"},{"start":9780.06,"end":9783.06,"text":"這一些事務要不要有人來處理"},{"start":9783.06,"end":9787.06,"text":"是不是要能夠接受人民的懲情"},{"start":9787.06,"end":9790.06,"text":"以至於能夠促進聯能治理"},{"start":9790.06,"end":9793.06,"text":"糾正行政失衡等等"},{"start":9793.06,"end":9796.06,"text":"這些項目我還是認為應該要有人做"},{"start":9796.06,"end":9800.06,"text":"所以我們是對憲政體制有不同的看法"},{"start":9800.06,"end":9803.06,"text":"有不同的看法到底五權還是三權"},{"start":9803.06,"end":9806.06,"text":"所以我們主張三權的認為要廢考監"},{"start":9806.06,"end":9808.06,"text":"這個我的立場始終一貫"},{"start":9808.06,"end":9811.06,"text":"但我也主張在現在國家體制還沒有變更之前"},{"start":9811.06,"end":9815.06,"text":"確實我們就是讓監察院要能夠擔負這樣的任務"},{"start":9815.06,"end":9818.06,"text":"所以今天在這裡跟您就教的部分"},{"start":9818.06,"end":9822.06,"text":"其實我也是認為以王備提名為您過去的資歷等等"},{"start":9822.06,"end":9825.06,"text":"我相信如果能夠順利通過提名"},{"start":9825.06,"end":9830.06,"text":"一定能夠讓這一屆的監察院能夠再有所施展"},{"start":9830.06,"end":9833.06,"text":"並且著重我個人期待"},{"start":9833.06,"end":9836.06,"text":"我最期待的部分其實是您也提到的"},{"start":9836.06,"end":9839.06,"text":"從個案的調查"},{"start":9839.06,"end":9842.06,"text":"一直到變成是整體制度的完善"},{"start":9842.06,"end":9846.06,"text":"這個部分我其實是最希望監察院能夠完成的"},{"start":9846.06,"end":9848.06,"text":"因為一旦能夠完成個案調查"},{"start":9848.06,"end":9850.06,"text":"變成是整體通案的改善"},{"start":9850.06,"end":9854.06,"text":"其實您剛剛說的糾正行政失衡到保障人品權"},{"start":9854.06,"end":9856.06,"text":"所有的都包括了"},{"start":9856.06,"end":9859.06,"text":"我們在地方上面碰到的一個例子"},{"start":9859.06,"end":9862.06,"text":"因為剛好跟您個人跟監察委員王榮章委員"},{"start":9862.06,"end":9864.06,"text":"其實是有關聯性的"},{"start":9864.06,"end":9866.06,"text":"那就是在英哥國中發生的一個案例"},{"start":9867.35,"end":9869.35,"text":"英哥國中大家可能不知道"},{"start":9869.35,"end":9873.35,"text":"因為他的校舍是分期分階段建置的"},{"start":9873.35,"end":9878.35,"text":"所以每一個每一棟的樓層高低其實不太一樣"},{"start":9878.35,"end":9881.35,"text":"所以棟和棟之間最後雖然相連了"},{"start":9881.35,"end":9883.35,"text":"但是落差很大"},{"start":9883.35,"end":9887.35,"text":"所以如果是身障者的學生的話"},{"start":9887.35,"end":9893.35,"text":"其實是沒有辦法在棟和棟之間直接安全的順暢的行走"},{"start":9893.35,"end":9898.35,"text":"所以變成學生他甚至沒有辦法在高樓層上課之餘"},{"start":9898.35,"end":9901.35,"text":"他也沒有辦法移動到其他的科任教室去"},{"start":9901.35,"end":9906.35,"text":"所以我們長期在爭取幫英哥國中配置無障礙電梯"},{"start":9906.35,"end":9909.35,"text":"那我們也很高興在2022年3月的時候"},{"start":9909.35,"end":9910.35,"text":"教育部核可了"},{"start":9910.35,"end":9912.35,"text":"可是在核可三個月之後"},{"start":9912.35,"end":9916.35,"text":"我們發現有一個單位也做了同樣的調查"},{"start":9916.35,"end":9919.35,"text":"那個調查其實就是來自於監察委員王榮章"},{"start":9919.35,"end":9922.35,"text":"王委員您不但做了調查"},{"start":9922.35,"end":9924.35,"text":"而且您把我們從英哥國中的個案"},{"start":9924.35,"end":9929.35,"text":"甚至最後推行到要求教育部要整體的實施"},{"start":9929.35,"end":9930.35,"text":"這樣子的細部規程"},{"start":9930.35,"end":9934.35,"text":"委員可以請你跟我們分享一下當時你的想法"},{"start":9934.35,"end":9937.35,"text":"還有未來如果已您通過了"},{"start":9937.35,"end":9939.35,"text":"可以再度成為監察委員"},{"start":9939.35,"end":9940.35,"text":"甚至是副院長的話"},{"start":9940.35,"end":9942.35,"text":"從個案的調查到制度改善"},{"start":9942.35,"end":9944.35,"text":"你會做怎麼樣的改進或推動"},{"start":9945.21,"end":9948.21,"text":"我們從我個人從媒體的這個部分看到"},{"start":9948.21,"end":9952.21,"text":"英哥國中因為學校的無障礙不足"},{"start":9952.21,"end":9955.21,"text":"然後在這個部分的話"},{"start":9955.21,"end":9959.21,"text":"對於障礙學生入學在這個部分的話"},{"start":9959.21,"end":9961.21,"text":"有所推遲"},{"start":9961.21,"end":9964.21,"text":"所以我立案調查了這一個案件"},{"start":9964.21,"end":9967.21,"text":"這個案件裡面就是說發現到"},{"start":9967.21,"end":9969.21,"text":"我們過去在於無障礙的"},{"start":9969.21,"end":9970.21,"text":"這是學生跟你陳情嗎"},{"start":9970.21,"end":9972.21,"text":"是就是說在這個部分的話"},{"start":9972.21,"end":9976.21,"text":"我們也就是說主動跟當時的學生"},{"start":9976.21,"end":9979.21,"text":"然後跟家長來做聯繫"},{"start":9979.21,"end":9981.21,"text":"在這裡面的話"},{"start":9981.21,"end":9985.21,"text":"我們也看到過去的很多的無障礙環境的要求"},{"start":9985.21,"end":9987.21,"text":"是單獨的一棟校舍"},{"start":9987.21,"end":9989.21,"text":"單獨的校舍"},{"start":9989.21,"end":9991.21,"text":"單獨的理堂"},{"start":9991.21,"end":9992.21,"text":"單獨的德國"},{"start":9992.21,"end":9995.21,"text":"但在中間能不能夠連貫"},{"start":9995.21,"end":9997.21,"text":"在這個部分沒有要求"},{"start":9997.21,"end":10001.21,"text":"所以我們經過這個個案的要求之後的話"},{"start":10001.21,"end":10005.21,"text":"然後要求教育部來做改善"},{"start":10005.21,"end":10008.21,"text":"教育部也藉由這樣子的一個案件"},{"start":10008.21,"end":10010.21,"text":"等等的就是說檢討"},{"start":10010.21,"end":10013.21,"text":"在經費的這個部分的話做管理"},{"start":10013.21,"end":10017.21,"text":"特別就是說在發布改善的指引"},{"start":10017.21,"end":10020.21,"text":"在高中以下的就是說校園"},{"start":10020.21,"end":10022.21,"text":"無障礙的這一個部分的話"},{"start":10022.21,"end":10024.21,"text":"同時更重要的一個部分"},{"start":10024.21,"end":10029.21,"text":"必須配合不同學齡階段的障礙者"},{"start":10029.21,"end":10031.21,"text":"他的體型跟身高"},{"start":10031.21,"end":10034.21,"text":"因為在這個過程裡面我們也發現到"},{"start":10034.21,"end":10037.21,"text":"學校裡面好不容易無障礙廁所做好了之後"},{"start":10037.21,"end":10040.21,"text":"但是他是國小高年級的學生"},{"start":10040.21,"end":10042.21,"text":"按照一般成年的就是說標準"},{"start":10042.21,"end":10045.21,"text":"做好了的廁所他沒有辦法使用"},{"start":10045.21,"end":10047.21,"text":"在這個部分的話"},{"start":10047.21,"end":10049.21,"text":"我們也在中央巡查的時候"},{"start":10049.21,"end":10053.21,"text":"尤其是我們蘇貞昌前院長"},{"start":10053.21,"end":10057.21,"text":"只是要求就是說做全國性的就是說檢討"},{"start":10057.21,"end":10060.21,"text":"在這個部分的話根據不同年級"},{"start":10060.21,"end":10065.21,"text":"應該要有不同設施的標準等等來進行"},{"start":10065.21,"end":10068.21,"text":"我們也看到教育部做這樣子的改善"},{"start":10068.21,"end":10071.21,"text":"是所以我其實是從這件個案"},{"start":10071.21,"end":10074.21,"text":"因為當時我確實是身為區域的委員"},{"start":10074.21,"end":10077.21,"text":"我們看重的就是把這棟學校這個問題"},{"start":10077.21,"end":10079.21,"text":"這個學生的問題解決掉了"},{"start":10079.21,"end":10081.21,"text":"那當然我們也可以繼續"},{"start":10081.21,"end":10083.21,"text":"但是你快我們一步"},{"start":10083.21,"end":10086.21,"text":"你確實是提出了整體的這樣子的要求之後"},{"start":10086.21,"end":10089.21,"text":"教育部在2024年完成了全國性的校園"},{"start":10089.21,"end":10091.21,"text":"無障礙設施盤點作業"},{"start":10091.21,"end":10094.21,"text":"那我想現在這個部分我們不但編列預算"},{"start":10094.21,"end":10096.21,"text":"也跟地方政府來合作"},{"start":10096.21,"end":10098.21,"text":"改善校園的無障礙設施"},{"start":10098.21,"end":10102.21,"text":"我想這確實就是有成績的一個部分"},{"start":10102.21,"end":10104.21,"text":"所以我們是很希望說"},{"start":10104.21,"end":10108.21,"text":"如果監察院在現在國家體制沒有調整之下"},{"start":10108.21,"end":10111.21,"text":"那麼他還是應該要能夠接受人民的陳情"},{"start":10111.21,"end":10113.21,"text":"然後去糾正行政的缺失"},{"start":10113.21,"end":10115.21,"text":"把這一塊的工作端附起來"},{"start":10115.21,"end":10118.21,"text":"最好還能夠促成像這樣的案件"},{"start":10118.21,"end":10120.21,"text":"變成是有制度性的改善"},{"start":10120.21,"end":10122.21,"text":"這是我們對監察院的期許"},{"start":10122.21,"end":10124.21,"text":"那再來的話"},{"start":10124.21,"end":10125.21,"text":"也是希望這個"},{"start":10125.21,"end":10128.21,"text":"因為王委員你這邊比較特別的狀況是"},{"start":10128.21,"end":10133.21,"text":"大家都知道您在人權委員會之間的貢獻著力是相當的深厚"},{"start":10133.21,"end":10135.21,"text":"所以你可不可以再跟我們說明一下"},{"start":10135.21,"end":10137.21,"text":"如果是未來呢"},{"start":10137.21,"end":10141.21,"text":"未來您在監察院和人權會之間的工作分配"},{"start":10141.21,"end":10144.21,"text":"這個專注力會是一個什麼樣的態度"},{"start":10144.84,"end":10150.84,"text":"監察院在這一次的委員提名的這個部分"},{"start":10150.84,"end":10152.84,"text":"一共27名委員"},{"start":10152.84,"end":10154.84,"text":"在人權會的這個部分"},{"start":10154.84,"end":10158.84,"text":"包括院長當然主任委員之外的話"},{"start":10158.84,"end":10160.84,"text":"一共有10名的就職委員"},{"start":10160.84,"end":10164.84,"text":"特別站在巴黎原則的要求"},{"start":10164.84,"end":10170.84,"text":"要求我們的人權委員應該是專職工作"},{"start":10170.84,"end":10176.84,"text":"所以我想我會繼續秉持在上一屆"},{"start":10176.84,"end":10178.84,"text":"上一屆的"},{"start":10178.84,"end":10180.84,"text":"在人權事務的關注"},{"start":10180.84,"end":10182.84,"text":"我會投入最多的這一個部分"},{"start":10182.84,"end":10184.84,"text":"會在人權事務的這個部分"},{"start":10184.84,"end":10190.84,"text":"那對於就是說當然就是法律授予我們的權利或者是責任"},{"start":10190.84,"end":10192.84,"text":"也包含監察委員的這一個部分"},{"start":10192.84,"end":10196.84,"text":"那我在適度的來做調整"},{"start":10196.84,"end":10198.84,"text":"那這個部分"},{"start":10209.88,"end":10211.88,"text":"好謝謝蘇委員"},{"start":10211.88,"end":10213.88,"text":"現在請林佩祥委員詢問"},{"start":10223.94,"end":10228.94,"text":"好謝謝主席還有我們在場的同仁跟我們王榮章先生"},{"start":10228.94,"end":10231.94,"text":"今天審查王榮章先生的資格"},{"start":10231.94,"end":10233.94,"text":"我想跟其他的提名人有一點不一樣"},{"start":10233.94,"end":10236.94,"text":"因為您不是第一次來監察院"},{"start":10236.94,"end":10238.94,"text":"您長期投入社會運動"},{"start":10238.94,"end":10240.94,"text":"當過民進黨的部分區立法委員"},{"start":10240.94,"end":10243.94,"text":"而且已經當了六年的監察委員"},{"start":10243.94,"end":10245.94,"text":"今天總統再次提名您"},{"start":10245.94,"end":10247.94,"text":"而且不是續聘"},{"start":10247.94,"end":10250.94,"text":"是準備升官當副院長"},{"start":10250.94,"end":10254.94,"text":"所以今天我們不能只看說您的履歷漂不漂亮"},{"start":10254.94,"end":10256.94,"text":"而是要看您的程序單合不合格"},{"start":10258.14,"end":10260.14,"text":"那我就要從幾個大方向來請教您"},{"start":10261.08,"end":10264.08,"text":"王先生您長期投入社會運動"},{"start":10264.08,"end":10268.08,"text":"關心財稅改革身心障礙者的權益"},{"start":10268.08,"end":10270.08,"text":"我在這邊必須要說"},{"start":10270.08,"end":10272.08,"text":"這些經歷都值得大家的尊重"},{"start":10272.08,"end":10275.08,"text":"民主社會需要有人幫弱勢發聲"},{"start":10275.08,"end":10277.08,"text":"也需要不同立場的倡議者"},{"start":10278.1,"end":10279.1,"text":"但是問題來了"},{"start":10279.67,"end":10281.67,"text":"社會運動者可以選邊站"},{"start":10281.67,"end":10283.67,"text":"監察委員不行"},{"start":10283.67,"end":10287.67,"text":"社會運動作者可以為了特定的理念衝鋒憲政"},{"start":10287.67,"end":10291.67,"text":"但是監察委員手上拿的是國家的監察權"},{"start":10291.67,"end":10295.67,"text":"必須要依照憲法、法律跟市政來辦事"},{"start":10295.99,"end":10297.99,"text":"所以我想先請教您"},{"start":10297.99,"end":10299.99,"text":"您自己認為過去六年"},{"start":10299.99,"end":10304.99,"text":"有沒有完全做到超越自己本來的政治跟社會運動立場"},{"start":10305.54,"end":10306.54,"text":"甚至這樣講"},{"start":10306.54,"end":10308.54,"text":"請您直接告訴我"},{"start":10308.54,"end":10310.54,"text":"過去六年有哪一個具體案件"},{"start":10310.54,"end":10313.54,"text":"是您調查的對象、結果、甚至結論"},{"start":10313.54,"end":10316.54,"text":"與您本來的政治立場是不同的"},{"start":10316.54,"end":10318.54,"text":"但您仍然秉公處理"},{"start":10319.33,"end":10321.33,"text":"請你舉出一個最具代表性的例子"},{"start":10323.36,"end":10325.36,"text":"我想"},{"start":10325.89,"end":10327.89,"text":"監察委員的工作"},{"start":10327.89,"end":10330.89,"text":"只是在案件的調查"},{"start":10330.89,"end":10335.89,"text":"我剛剛也跟委員報告"},{"start":10335.89,"end":10337.89,"text":"我在監察調查的案件"},{"start":10337.89,"end":10338.89,"text":"歷史不多"},{"start":10338.89,"end":10340.89,"text":"我一共只有30案件"},{"start":10340.89,"end":10342.89,"text":"一件的調查案件"},{"start":10344.09,"end":10346.09,"text":"但是在這一個部分的話"},{"start":10346.09,"end":10348.09,"text":"要我特別舉出來"},{"start":10348.09,"end":10352.09,"text":"跟我的過去的政治理念"},{"start":10352.09,"end":10354.09,"text":"這一個部分有所不同"},{"start":10354.09,"end":10356.09,"text":"或者是說"},{"start":10356.09,"end":10358.09,"text":"在這裡面的話"},{"start":10358.09,"end":10362.09,"text":"跟我在社運的立場上面不同"},{"start":10362.09,"end":10364.09,"text":"我想在這裡面沒有出的案件"},{"start":10364.09,"end":10368.09,"text":"但是我可以說明的一個案件是"},{"start":10369.09,"end":10371.09,"text":"我必須先說明"},{"start":10371.09,"end":10374.09,"text":"這一個是一個密的案件"},{"start":10374.09,"end":10376.09,"text":"我簡單的說明的情況裡面"},{"start":10376.09,"end":10380.09,"text":"我們在接受陳情的這一個"},{"start":10380.09,"end":10382.09,"text":"監察院接受陳情的時候"},{"start":10382.09,"end":10384.09,"text":"有一個案件"},{"start":10384.09,"end":10389.09,"text":"是有關於一位身心障礙公務員的自殺案件"},{"start":10389.09,"end":10392.09,"text":"然後家府認為"},{"start":10392.09,"end":10394.09,"text":"在這一個部分的話"},{"start":10394.09,"end":10398.09,"text":"他的任用機關有相關的責任"},{"start":10398.95,"end":10400.95,"text":"因為陰障礙者"},{"start":10400.95,"end":10402.95,"text":"我想在監察院裡面的話"},{"start":10402.95,"end":10407.95,"text":"同仁就推派我來做這樣子的案件的調查"},{"start":10407.95,"end":10411.95,"text":"經過抽屍剝繭的情況裡面的話"},{"start":10411.95,"end":10413.95,"text":"在這裡面的話"},{"start":10413.95,"end":10418.95,"text":"我們確實還原整個真實的情況跟狀況"},{"start":10418.95,"end":10421.95,"text":"並不如家屬所想的這樣子的情況"},{"start":10421.95,"end":10423.95,"text":"很多人原來認為"},{"start":10423.95,"end":10426.95,"text":"這一個案件在之後的話"},{"start":10426.95,"end":10428.95,"text":"我們當然會規則於用人機關"},{"start":10428.95,"end":10430.95,"text":"因為他是障礙者"},{"start":10430.95,"end":10433.95,"text":"尤其就是說死的這樣子的一個情況"},{"start":10434.91,"end":10436.91,"text":"但是就是說我們還原了"},{"start":10436.91,"end":10440.91,"text":"在調查過程裡面還原了事實真相這一個部分"},{"start":10440.91,"end":10445.91,"text":"然後用人機關有他疏忽的地方"},{"start":10445.91,"end":10447.91,"text":"也請他負起責任"},{"start":10447.91,"end":10451.91,"text":"然後也讓家屬能夠清楚明白事實的真相"},{"start":10451.91,"end":10453.91,"text":"王先生為什麼我特地要提這一個"},{"start":10453.91,"end":10456.91,"text":"因為全國民眾都想要知道說"},{"start":10456.91,"end":10458.91,"text":"王榮章進了清察院之後"},{"start":10458.91,"end":10460.91,"text":"當上副院長之後"},{"start":10460.91,"end":10462.91,"text":"是把社運的旗子放下來"},{"start":10462.91,"end":10466.91,"text":"拿起憲法還是只是把旗子帶進監察院"},{"start":10466.91,"end":10468.91,"text":"這是兩件完全不同的事情"},{"start":10468.91,"end":10471.91,"text":"而王先生您不只是參與社會運動"},{"start":10471.91,"end":10474.91,"text":"您還是民進黨的不分區立委"},{"start":10474.91,"end":10476.91,"text":"那這當然不是原罪"},{"start":10476.91,"end":10478.91,"text":"但是監察委員的法律要求"},{"start":10478.91,"end":10481.91,"text":"就是必須要超出黨派保持中立"},{"start":10481.91,"end":10485.91,"text":"很有意思的您自己在書面答覆裡面也承認"},{"start":10485.91,"end":10487.91,"text":"監察院現在的滿意度低"},{"start":10487.91,"end":10489.91,"text":"其中一個核心原因"},{"start":10489.91,"end":10492.91,"text":"就是提名制度引起政治疑慮"},{"start":10492.91,"end":10495.91,"text":"以及重大施政弊案查辦時"},{"start":10495.91,"end":10497.91,"text":"為輔仁民期待"},{"start":10497.91,"end":10499.91,"text":"這是您自己寫的"},{"start":10499.91,"end":10502.91,"text":"所以我要順著您的答案來問"},{"start":10503.55,"end":10505.55,"text":"那既然您知道人民有這個疑慮"},{"start":10505.55,"end":10507.55,"text":"請問你過去六年"},{"start":10507.55,"end":10511.55,"text":"有沒有主動調查民進黨政府的重大政策"},{"start":10511.55,"end":10513.55,"text":"或重大行政為師"},{"start":10513.55,"end":10515.55,"text":"請問你有沒有主導參與"},{"start":10515.55,"end":10519.55,"text":"而且最後真的產生實質的糾正效果"},{"start":10519.55,"end":10521.55,"text":"糾舉或彈劾"},{"start":10521.55,"end":10523.55,"text":"請您講最重要的意見"},{"start":10522.98,"end":10525.98,"text":"我想要例來講的這個部分"},{"start":10525.98,"end":10528.98,"text":"我確實有辦理過相關的案件"},{"start":10528.98,"end":10530.98,"text":"這裡面包括我們的國防部"},{"start":10530.98,"end":10537.98,"text":"對於從84年的制度裡面所執行的"},{"start":10537.98,"end":10541.98,"text":"對於已署的醫次金的部分執行"},{"start":10541.98,"end":10545.98,"text":"從84年一直挫到民國110年"},{"start":10545.98,"end":10547.98,"text":"這樣子的情況"},{"start":10547.98,"end":10551.98,"text":"我提出六位軍官的彈劾工作"},{"start":10551.98,"end":10555.98,"text":"雖然國防部是在民進黨執政之下"},{"start":10555.98,"end":10559.98,"text":"當然這個案件歷經30多年的錯誤"},{"start":10559.98,"end":10561.98,"text":"我提出相關的糾正"},{"start":10561.98,"end":10565.98,"text":"另外的話對於桃園縣政府"},{"start":10565.98,"end":10567.98,"text":"民進黨執政的時候"},{"start":10567.98,"end":10572.98,"text":"對於身障礙的相關的基金的運用"},{"start":10572.98,"end":10576.98,"text":"然後對於公產盈餘運用的部分"},{"start":10576.98,"end":10579.98,"text":"不當的使用我也提出相關的糾正"},{"start":10579.98,"end":10584.98,"text":"如果未來民進黨政府發生重大違法失職"},{"start":10584.98,"end":10587.98,"text":"甚至涉及行政院長、部會首長"},{"start":10587.98,"end":10590.98,"text":"您會不會查、敢不敢查"},{"start":10590.98,"end":10592.98,"text":"我想這個部分的話"},{"start":10592.98,"end":10596.98,"text":"監察院作為準司法機關"},{"start":10596.98,"end":10600.98,"text":"處理風險機關的責任"},{"start":10600.98,"end":10602.98,"text":"這裡面的話"},{"start":10602.98,"end":10605.98,"text":"不管政黨、我個人的這個部分也是如此"},{"start":10605.98,"end":10607.98,"text":"不管是在制度的要求"},{"start":10607.98,"end":10611.98,"text":"或我對個人的要求"},{"start":10611.98,"end":10614.98,"text":"這裡面不論政黨的顏色背景"},{"start":10614.98,"end":10617.98,"text":"證據到哪裡,查到哪裡,辦到哪裡"},{"start":10617.98,"end":10619.98,"text":"這個部分的話"},{"start":10619.98,"end":10623.98,"text":"我對在這裡面可以以這樣子的說明"},{"start":10623.98,"end":10625.98,"text":"這也是我的堅持跟主張"},{"start":10627.21,"end":10629.21,"text":"其實您的問卷回答裡面也有"},{"start":10629.21,"end":10632.21,"text":"我想不是只有我所有的剛剛質詢的委員"},{"start":10632.21,"end":10634.21,"text":"尤其是在在野黨的委員們"},{"start":10634.21,"end":10636.21,"text":"都有一樣的疑惑"},{"start":10636.21,"end":10640.21,"text":"就是行政院長拒絕附屬立法院三讀通過的法案"},{"start":10640.21,"end":10644.21,"text":"您的回答認為這是屬於政治性的憲政僵局"},{"start":10644.21,"end":10648.21,"text":"應該透過政治協商或憲法判決解決"},{"start":10648.21,"end":10652.21,"text":"而不是透過監察院懲戒制度來處理"},{"start":10652.21,"end":10654.21,"text":"我尊重您的法律意見"},{"start":10654.21,"end":10655.21,"text":"但是我也必須要提醒您"},{"start":10655.21,"end":10657.21,"text":"如果監察院說什麼問題"},{"start":10657.21,"end":10659.21,"text":"都說這是政治問題"},{"start":10659.21,"end":10661.21,"text":"什麼都說等法院判"},{"start":10661.21,"end":10665.21,"text":"最後面監察院會不會變成一個大型的轉接中心"},{"start":10665.21,"end":10667.21,"text":"能轉法院就轉法院"},{"start":10667.21,"end":10669.21,"text":"能等釋憲就等釋憲"},{"start":10669.21,"end":10671.21,"text":"那人民會直覺地去問人為說"},{"start":10671.21,"end":10673.21,"text":"我們要這個監察院拿來幹嘛呢"},{"start":10674.01,"end":10674.51,"text":"呃"},{"start":10675.48,"end":10677.48,"text":"這個部分的話"},{"start":10677.48,"end":10681.48,"text":"監察院的者在於公務人員或者公家機關"},{"start":10681.48,"end":10683.48,"text":"違法失職"},{"start":10683.48,"end":10686.48,"text":"應作為而不作為的就是說情況底下"},{"start":10686.48,"end":10688.48,"text":"我們可以行使監察權"},{"start":10688.48,"end":10691.48,"text":"但是對於法律的就是說"},{"start":10691.48,"end":10693.48,"text":"適用的爭議"},{"start":10693.48,"end":10696.48,"text":"乃至於就是說在剛剛舉例行政院長"},{"start":10696.48,"end":10700.48,"text":"可不可以在這樣子的案件上面行使附屬權"},{"start":10700.48,"end":10702.48,"text":"那這裡面牽涉到法律"},{"start":10702.48,"end":10706.48,"text":"憲法賦予的附屬權"},{"start":10706.48,"end":10707.48,"text":"這一個部分"},{"start":10707.48,"end":10709.48,"text":"到底就是說是不是"},{"start":10709.48,"end":10710.48,"text":"在這"},{"start":10710.48,"end":10711.48,"text":"是"},{"start":10711.48,"end":10715.48,"text":"他到底是行政院長的權利還是義務"},{"start":10715.48,"end":10716.48,"text":"剛剛我們院長提名"},{"start":10716.48,"end":10720.48,"text":"被提名人也做過了相關的就是說明"},{"start":10720.48,"end":10723.48,"text":"所以在不是監察院權責的這個部分的話"},{"start":10723.48,"end":10725.48,"text":"我們沒有辦法做認定"},{"start":10725.48,"end":10727.48,"text":"也沒有辦法強加作為"},{"start":10727.48,"end":10728.48,"text":"好"},{"start":10728.48,"end":10731.48,"text":"其實剛剛這一題最後這一題其實剛剛也有不少"},{"start":10731.48,"end":10734.48,"text":"您自己也曾經講過就是"},{"start":10734.48,"end":10736.48,"text":"您當了六年的監察委員"},{"start":10736.48,"end":10738.48,"text":"那你目前公開統計來看"},{"start":10738.48,"end":10741.48,"text":"來看您的調查報告參與數是25件"},{"start":10741.48,"end":10744.48,"text":"第二少的監察委員是31"},{"start":10744.48,"end":10745.48,"text":"那第二少是76件"},{"start":10745.48,"end":10747.48,"text":"您的彈劾案是1件"},{"start":10747.48,"end":10748.48,"text":"那第二例的是3件"},{"start":10748.48,"end":10750.48,"text":"您的糾正案是6件"},{"start":10750.48,"end":10752.48,"text":"倒數第二反而是20件"},{"start":10752.48,"end":10756.48,"text":"這個差距跟很多項目來講差距可能"},{"start":10756.88,"end":10757.88,"text":"不是兩倍到三倍"},{"start":10757.88,"end":10760.88,"text":"但是老實說數字不能代表一切"},{"start":10760.88,"end":10762.88,"text":"但是如果每個數字都特別低的時候"},{"start":10762.88,"end":10765.88,"text":"總是會有一些代表代表一些意義吧"},{"start":10765.88,"end":10767.88,"text":"所以請你具體回答"},{"start":10767.88,"end":10769.88,"text":"為什麼您的核心監察業務參見數"},{"start":10769.88,"end":10772.88,"text":"會明顯低於其他監察委員"},{"start":10772.88,"end":10774.88,"text":"是因為您辦的案件特別困難"},{"start":10774.88,"end":10777.88,"text":"還是您投入國家人權委員會工作"},{"start":10777.88,"end":10779.88,"text":"還是您本來的工作分配就不同"},{"start":10782.16,"end":10784.16,"text":"這一個部分的話"},{"start":10784.16,"end":10787.16,"text":"我選擇我們兩個角色"},{"start":10787.16,"end":10791.16,"text":"一個是監察委員兼國家人權委員會委員"},{"start":10791.16,"end":10793.16,"text":"在這一個部分的話"},{"start":10793.16,"end":10795.16,"text":"國家人權委員會的委員"},{"start":10795.16,"end":10798.16,"text":"根據巴黎原則他必須是專職"},{"start":10798.16,"end":10800.16,"text":"但是我們現在職權刑事法的規定"},{"start":10800.16,"end":10804.16,"text":"我們是監察委員兼國家人權委員會"},{"start":10804.16,"end":10805.16,"text":"那對我來講"},{"start":10805.16,"end":10809.16,"text":"我的選擇投入在人權會的工作裡面"},{"start":10809.16,"end":10811.16,"text":"那我在這一個部分的話"},{"start":10811.16,"end":10812.16,"text":"低度參與"},{"start":10812.16,"end":10814.16,"text":"我們仍然就做競相關的義務"},{"start":10814.16,"end":10816.16,"text":"老師說這就是我現在很大的疑問"},{"start":10816.16,"end":10819.16,"text":"就是說您在書面報告裡面也提出說"},{"start":10820.5,"end":10825.5,"text":"監察委員的監委可以低度參與監察質詢的工作"},{"start":10825.5,"end":10827.5,"text":"可是這樣對於一個未來的副院長"},{"start":10827.5,"end":10829.5,"text":"其實這個樣子的態度"},{"start":10839.89,"end":10841.89,"text":"好"},{"start":10846.25,"end":10848.25,"text":"謝謝林委員"},{"start":10848.25,"end":10851.25,"text":"下一位我們請賴世保委員詢問"},{"start":10862.99,"end":10864.99,"text":"謝謝主席江副院長"},{"start":10864.99,"end":10867.99,"text":"以及各位先進"},{"start":10867.99,"end":10871.99,"text":"還有我們的監察院副院長被提名人"},{"start":10873.17,"end":10875.17,"text":"王先生吧"},{"start":10875.87,"end":10877.87,"text":"以及各位先進大家早安大家好"},{"start":10878.74,"end":10880.74,"text":"這個你我是同事"},{"start":10880.74,"end":10883.74,"text":"在立法院財政委員會"},{"start":10883.74,"end":10885.74,"text":"我們那時候老實講我對你蠻欣賞的"},{"start":10887.49,"end":10889.49,"text":"你堅持著公平正義"},{"start":10890.21,"end":10892.21,"text":"雖然你是民進黨的不溫區"},{"start":10892.21,"end":10894.21,"text":"你敢放炮"},{"start":10895.12,"end":10897.12,"text":"可是你進到監察院以後"},{"start":10897.6,"end":10898.6,"text":"你給我鬧"},{"start":10901.45,"end":10902.45,"text":"最混的監委"},{"start":10903.41,"end":10904.41,"text":"最冷酷的監委"},{"start":10905.74,"end":10908.74,"text":"最聽話的監委聽誰的聽行政院的"},{"start":10909.38,"end":10910.38,"text":"你卻很猛狀"},{"start":10911.57,"end":10912.57,"text":"代表"},{"start":10912.57,"end":10914.57,"text":"徹底的把監察院內閣化"},{"start":10916.27,"end":10918.27,"text":"把自我矮化"},{"start":10918.27,"end":10920.27,"text":"還沒讓你講你先不要講"},{"start":10921.14,"end":10922.14,"text":"把監察院"},{"start":10922.76,"end":10923.76,"text":"住嘴"},{"start":10924.16,"end":10926.16,"text":"變成行政院的監察局"},{"start":10927.44,"end":10929.44,"text":"你現在來看他大家統計啦"},{"start":10934.91,"end":10936.91,"text":"六件糾正案"},{"start":10937.66,"end":10939.66,"text":"二十五件的整個"},{"start":10940.19,"end":10942.19,"text":"掉槽"},{"start":10941.66,"end":10943.66,"text":"這樣陳菊你怎麼好意思說你要接受"},{"start":10943.66,"end":10945.66,"text":"監察院的副院長"},{"start":10945.66,"end":10947.66,"text":"又再生肝啊"},{"start":10948.11,"end":10949.11,"text":"這怎麼好意思"},{"start":10949.11,"end":10950.11,"text":"如果我是你啊"},{"start":10950.11,"end":10952.11,"text":"羞慘的"},{"start":10953.31,"end":10954.31,"text":"他為什麼提名你"},{"start":10954.31,"end":10955.31,"text":"就簡單啊"},{"start":10955.31,"end":10956.31,"text":"因為你的成績最爛"},{"start":10957.07,"end":10959.07,"text":"他就提名一個最爛的"},{"start":10959.07,"end":10960.07,"text":"讓我們來砍"},{"start":10960.56,"end":10962.56,"text":"順勢的把監察院廢掉"},{"start":10962.56,"end":10964.56,"text":"所以王龍中是指標人物啊"},{"start":10964.56,"end":10965.56,"text":"你成績最爛"},{"start":10965.56,"end":10967.56,"text":"所有的監委裡面"},{"start":10968.27,"end":10970.27,"text":"二十幾個監委裡面你成績最爛"},{"start":10971.18,"end":10973.18,"text":"然後呢你剛剛講的什麼什麼國務部"},{"start":10973.18,"end":10975.18,"text":"那種不同不一樣"},{"start":10975.97,"end":10977.97,"text":"對於行政院貴黨民進黨"},{"start":10979.68,"end":10981.68,"text":"的這些高官你捧都不敢捧"},{"start":10982.33,"end":10983.33,"text":"你捧都"},{"start":10983.66,"end":10984.66,"text":"高端的事件"},{"start":10985.74,"end":10988.74,"text":"2021年3加11爆發"},{"start":10989.77,"end":10991.77,"text":"到現在為止機會紀錄也沒有"},{"start":10992.86,"end":10994.86,"text":"說有監委提出來"},{"start":10994.86,"end":10996.86,"text":"要約談陳時中"},{"start":10999.29,"end":11000.29,"text":"這個委員就沒有你啊"},{"start":11001.32,"end":11003.32,"text":"有誰呢?我再提名你給他表揚一下"},{"start":11003.32,"end":11005.32,"text":"敢提出來的"},{"start":11005.67,"end":11007.67,"text":"普宗臣林立雄"},{"start":11007.67,"end":11009.67,"text":"王立龍"},{"start":11009.67,"end":11010.67,"text":"蕭志祐"},{"start":11010.67,"end":11012.67,"text":"王又隆"},{"start":11012.67,"end":11013.67,"text":"以及"},{"start":11013.96,"end":11014.96,"text":"你沒命"},{"start":11015.69,"end":11016.69,"text":"沒有你啊"},{"start":11016.69,"end":11018.69,"text":"好你最關心的藍權"},{"start":11018.69,"end":11019.69,"text":"人他那份"},{"start":11019.69,"end":11022.69,"text":"赤路人赤路的方向去調查"},{"start":11023.81,"end":11025.81,"text":"高端的事情"},{"start":11025.43,"end":11028.43,"text":"結果人權的東西就是王又隆跟林美怡"},{"start":11028.43,"end":11029.43,"text":"也沒有王龍章啊"},{"start":11030.48,"end":11032.48,"text":"這社會多麼重大的"},{"start":11032.48,"end":11033.48,"text":"高端事情"},{"start":11033.48,"end":11035.48,"text":"你可以看到陳時中最近在講這些武術善得"},{"start":11037.45,"end":11038.45,"text":"順利"},{"start":11039.35,"end":11039.85,"text":"咿嚕"},{"start":11041.06,"end":11043.06,"text":"裡面掮客的弊端"},{"start":11043.06,"end":11044.06,"text":"那是一件事情"},{"start":11044.62,"end":11046.62,"text":"跟陳時中那時候"},{"start":11047.62,"end":11049.62,"text":"百般的阻撓"},{"start":11049.62,"end":11052.62,"text":"讓疫苗進來就是護著大家打高端"},{"start":11053.34,"end":11054.34,"text":"你現在高端鬧事"},{"start":11054.34,"end":11055.34,"text":"你是不是要我回答"},{"start":11055.34,"end":11056.34,"text":"不要急不要急"},{"start":11056.34,"end":11057.34,"text":"我會讓你講喔"},{"start":11058,"end":11059,"text":"2021年"},{"start":11059,"end":11064,"text":"因為這樣一路把高端的股票炒到417塊"},{"start":11064,"end":11066,"text":"現在高端的股票50塊左右"},{"start":11066.91,"end":11067.91,"text":"中伏"},{"start":11068.26,"end":11071.26,"text":"總共40增發了600億多"},{"start":11072.09,"end":11074.09,"text":"受害的人是萬人左右"},{"start":11076.14,"end":11077.14,"text":"也是人權問題啊"},{"start":11077.14,"end":11079.14,"text":"這個經濟問題這裡面炒"},{"start":11079.14,"end":11082.14,"text":"沒有看到王龍章那個一丁點"},{"start":11082.14,"end":11085.14,"text":"再來也看到潮濕雞蛋"},{"start":11086.06,"end":11089.06,"text":"離譜的一套武毒你也都沒有動身色"},{"start":11089.06,"end":11092.06,"text":"光電弊案你也都沒有動"},{"start":11092.06,"end":11093.06,"text":"所以這個監委啊"},{"start":11093.06,"end":11094.06,"text":"老實講啊"},{"start":11094.06,"end":11095.06,"text":"這不是你而已啦"},{"start":11095.06,"end":11098.06,"text":"就是整個監察院是爛掉的"},{"start":11098.06,"end":11103.06,"text":"監察院把自己矮化成為行政院的監察局"},{"start":11103.87,"end":11106.87,"text":"然後這幾個立委要約談陳時中"},{"start":11106.87,"end":11109.87,"text":"被蘇貞昌吼下去"},{"start":11109.87,"end":11110.87,"text":"大家都丟棄啦"},{"start":11110.87,"end":11112.87,"text":"到現在為止沒有人敢講話"},{"start":11112.87,"end":11113.87,"text":"包括你在內"},{"start":11113.87,"end":11117.87,"text":"一句都不肯請問高端事情你有肯一句話嗎"},{"start":11117.87,"end":11119.87,"text":"一句話沒有啊"},{"start":11119.87,"end":11121.87,"text":"王龍章這個監委啊"},{"start":11121.87,"end":11122.87,"text":"你一句話都沒有"},{"start":11122.87,"end":11123.87,"text":"我就想到說"},{"start":11123.87,"end":11125.87,"text":"這是我認識的王龍章嗎"},{"start":11126.95,"end":11128.95,"text":"已經在參議會的時候"},{"start":11128.95,"end":11129.95,"text":"變彭喬啊"},{"start":11129.95,"end":11131.95,"text":"還敢講這個講那個"},{"start":11131.95,"end":11133.95,"text":"監委歸說啊"},{"start":11133.95,"end":11134.95,"text":"一路歸說到底"},{"start":11135.59,"end":11136.59,"text":"啊"},{"start":11136.96,"end":11137.96,"text":"只有一件彈劾案"},{"start":11138.91,"end":11139.91,"text":"一年不到一件"},{"start":11139.91,"end":11141.91,"text":"只有六件糾正案"},{"start":11141.91,"end":11142.91,"text":"包括你剛剛講的國防部"},{"start":11143.69,"end":11144.69,"text":"一年一件"},{"start":11144.69,"end":11146.69,"text":"你這官有夠好做啊"},{"start":11146.69,"end":11147.69,"text":"還有有辦法說"},{"start":11147.69,"end":11149.69,"text":"我就不要人家你失德了"},{"start":11149.69,"end":11151.69,"text":"你用溝通車去洗你的愛狗"},{"start":11151.69,"end":11152.69,"text":"這個我就不談了"},{"start":11152.69,"end":11154.69,"text":"我跟你談政策的東西"},{"start":11154.69,"end":11156.69,"text":"政策的東西"},{"start":11156.69,"end":11158.69,"text":"我先把問題講完"},{"start":11158.69,"end":11160.69,"text":"我把問題講完"},{"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凍結最嚴 審查過程最混亂"},{"start":11738.6,"end":11743.6,"text":"而現在審查今年的預算 史上脫罪久"},{"start":11744.2,"end":11746.2,"text":"很遺憾立法院面對總預算案"},{"start":11747.38,"end":11750.38,"text":"不是基於專業 不是基於理性"},{"start":11750.38,"end":11754.38,"text":"而只是基於政治報復跟癱瘓執政"},{"start":11754.38,"end":11756.38,"text":"我等一下會讓你統合回覆"},{"start":11756.38,"end":11757.38,"text":"這是第一害"},{"start":11757.38,"end":11759.38,"text":"第二害就是無限多的錢坑法案"},{"start":11759.38,"end":11760.38,"text":"我就跳過"},{"start":11761.45,"end":11763.45,"text":"這裡是一次性的支出"},{"start":11763.45,"end":11764.45,"text":"跟"},{"start":11765.2,"end":11769.2,"text":"無法計算經費支出都是腐爛的修法"},{"start":11769.2,"end":11772.2,"text":"無限多的錢坑肉桶法案"},{"start":11772.2,"end":11776.2,"text":"讓我們的財政陷入了無底洞的困境"},{"start":11776.2,"end":11777.2,"text":"最新的就是"},{"start":11778.53,"end":11779.53,"text":"未來交互條例"},{"start":11780.43,"end":11782.43,"text":"在野黨為了割到尾"},{"start":11782.66,"end":11783.66,"text":"沒有明定財源"},{"start":11784.74,"end":11786.74,"text":"還要跟中央搶功勞"},{"start":11787.57,"end":11788.57,"text":"康國家之楷"},{"start":11789.16,"end":11791.16,"text":"這個火速通過的未來帳戶"},{"start":11791.16,"end":11795.16,"text":"每年會增加政府支出1900多億"},{"start":11795.16,"end":11799.16,"text":"比行政院衡量推出的1800億還要多"},{"start":11800.57,"end":11803.57,"text":"這就是立法委員片面增加政府支出"},{"start":11803.57,"end":11805.57,"text":"沒有評估財源"},{"start":11805.57,"end":11808.57,"text":"沒有評估預算之間的合理分配"},{"start":11808.57,"end":11809.57,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":11809.57,"end":11811.57,"text":"唯一我教育文化委員會"},{"start":11811.57,"end":11813.57,"text":"光這一個會期"},{"start":11814.54,"end":11818.54,"text":"藍白委員靜香的提了ABCDE"},{"start":11818.54,"end":11820.54,"text":"這麼多個教育法案"},{"start":11821.32,"end":11823.32,"text":"凡事要加碼"},{"start":11823.32,"end":11825.32,"text":"凡事都免費"},{"start":11825.32,"end":11827.32,"text":"從營養午餐到學費減免"},{"start":11828.53,"end":11830.53,"text":"凡事都免費"},{"start":11830.53,"end":11831.53,"text":"立委當楷字"},{"start":11831.53,"end":11834.53,"text":"可是要中央全買單"},{"start":11834.53,"end":11836.53,"text":"如果以我這個會期教育文化委員會"},{"start":11836.53,"end":11838.53,"text":"再也胡亂加碼"},{"start":11838.53,"end":11840.53,"text":"一年至少又增加"},{"start":11840.53,"end":11842.53,"text":"國家1638億的支出"},{"start":11843.85,"end":11845.85,"text":"所以就是前坑法案"},{"start":11845.85,"end":11847.85,"text":"跟總預算的困境"},{"start":11847.85,"end":11849.85,"text":"在下一頁"},{"start":11849.85,"end":11851.85,"text":"第三害就是才華法"},{"start":11851.77,"end":11852.77,"text":"才華法"},{"start":11852.77,"end":11853.77,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":11854.09,"end":11857.09,"text":"一年搬走中央4165億"},{"start":11857.09,"end":11858.09,"text":"沒有問題"},{"start":11858.09,"end":11861.09,"text":"錢下放地方中央也在做"},{"start":11861.09,"end":11863.09,"text":"可是分配不正義"},{"start":11863.09,"end":11864.09,"text":"事權不同意"},{"start":11864.09,"end":11866.09,"text":"財政沒有紀律"},{"start":11866.09,"end":11869.09,"text":"相關法規的配套也沒有提出"},{"start":11869.09,"end":11871.09,"text":"這些在野黨的委員"},{"start":11871.09,"end":11873.09,"text":"只精算政治的紅利"},{"start":11873.09,"end":11876.09,"text":"並不精算財政的紀律"},{"start":11876.94,"end":11878.94,"text":"所以我要請您統合回答"},{"start":11878.94,"end":11879.94,"text":"第一個也是我的要求"},{"start":11879.94,"end":11880.94,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":11880.94,"end":11883.94,"text":"審計部要獨立行使審計權"},{"start":11884.74,"end":11888.74,"text":"對於才華法這種胡亂的中央的錢"},{"start":11888.74,"end":11890.74,"text":"大量的灌到地方"},{"start":11890.75,"end":11893.75,"text":"地方大撒幣卻沒有財政的紀律"},{"start":11893.75,"end":11896.75,"text":"以前監察院審計部就有很多的糾正案"},{"start":11898.14,"end":11900.14,"text":"應當嚴格來執行"},{"start":11900.14,"end":11902.14,"text":"否則它就是一個大黑洞"},{"start":11902.14,"end":11904.14,"text":"它就是一個無底洞"},{"start":11905.12,"end":11907.12,"text":"所以因為財政是您的專業"},{"start":11907.12,"end":11910.12,"text":"財政紀律法是您當初用心推動"},{"start":11910.12,"end":11912.12,"text":"我也很遺憾剛剛在場的賴世寶委員"},{"start":11912.12,"end":11915.12,"text":"他當時也是一起力推的委員"},{"start":11915.12,"end":11917.12,"text":"只是換了位子換了腦袋的人"},{"start":11917.12,"end":11919.12,"text":"應當不是王榮章您"},{"start":11919.12,"end":11922.12,"text":"恐怕就是現在在野黨的委員"},{"start":11922.12,"end":11923.12,"text":"如賴世寶們"},{"start":11923.12,"end":11925.12,"text":"所以說請您總和回答"},{"start":11925.12,"end":11927.12,"text":"就財政紀律的部分"},{"start":11927.12,"end":11929.12,"text":"我剛剛說的立法院的三害"},{"start":11929.12,"end":11933.12,"text":"都會造成執政的不順暢"},{"start":11933.12,"end":11935.12,"text":"財政的不紀律"},{"start":11935.12,"end":11938.12,"text":"您要怎麼樣擔任副院長之後"},{"start":11938.12,"end":11943.12,"text":"協助導政協助中央的地方的財政"},{"start":11943.12,"end":11945.12,"text":"都能夠撥亂反正呢"},{"start":11945.12,"end":11946.12,"text":"您請快速回答"},{"start":11946.12,"end":11948.12,"text":"謝謝吳委員"},{"start":11948.12,"end":11952.12,"text":"我想您剛剛說明的這個情況"},{"start":11952.58,"end":11955.58,"text":"我想作為財政紀律法"},{"start":11955.58,"end":11957.58,"text":"在沒有行政院版本之下"},{"start":11957.58,"end":11960.58,"text":"在各位委員的支持之下"},{"start":11960.58,"end":11962.58,"text":"通過的財政紀律法"},{"start":11962.58,"end":11967.58,"text":"但是目前執行的情況是這樣子的"},{"start":11967.58,"end":11969.58,"text":"我想作為提案人"},{"start":11969.58,"end":11971.58,"text":"不作為監察委員"},{"start":11971.58,"end":11974.58,"text":"或者是被提名人的立場"},{"start":11974.58,"end":11977.58,"text":"我個人只有無限的遺憾"},{"start":11978.51,"end":11980.51,"text":"基於憲政分立的情況"},{"start":11980.51,"end":11982.51,"text":"尤其是監察委員權"},{"start":11982.51,"end":11984.51,"text":"不及於立法委員的這個部分"},{"start":11984.51,"end":11988.51,"text":"我不能夠做出更詳細的評論"},{"start":11988.51,"end":11990.51,"text":"但是我覺得是"},{"start":11990.51,"end":11996.51,"text":"我想就現在的情況跟結果來講的話"},{"start":11996.51,"end":11998.51,"text":"我想就是說"},{"start":11998.51,"end":12003.51,"text":"審計部事實上也是在監察院裡面的獨立機關"},{"start":12003.51,"end":12006.51,"text":"我們會尊重他的獨立審計的情況"},{"start":12006.51,"end":12014.51,"text":"其實就是說我們會強力支持他們獨立審計相關的權利"},{"start":12014.51,"end":12016.51,"text":"對於執行的結果"},{"start":12016.51,"end":12019.51,"text":"執行的績效的這一個部分"},{"start":12019.51,"end":12024.51,"text":"我想未來如果有機會的話擔任副院長"},{"start":12024.51,"end":12025.51,"text":"我一定會相助院長"},{"start":12025.51,"end":12027.51,"text":"在這一個部分的話"},{"start":12027.51,"end":12029.51,"text":"強力支持審計的這個部分"},{"start":12029.51,"end":12031.51,"text":"能夠發揮他的功能"},{"start":12031.51,"end":12034.51,"text":"其實不只審計權來監督預算執行"},{"start":12034.51,"end":12037.51,"text":"監察院也可以就我們監督各級政府"},{"start":12037.51,"end":12041.51,"text":"來針對預算不計率的部分"},{"start":12041.51,"end":12043.51,"text":"財政不計率的部分"},{"start":12043.51,"end":12044.51,"text":"為所當為"},{"start":12044.51,"end":12047.51,"text":"好 我最後要問我回到倒數下一頁"},{"start":12047.51,"end":12049.51,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":12050.64,"end":12054.64,"text":"監察權有彈劾權 糾舉權跟糾正權"},{"start":12055.01,"end":12060.01,"text":"雖然不能夠對於民意選出的立委來行使職權"},{"start":12060.01,"end":12065.01,"text":"但是對於立法院的文官是可以行使相關的權利"},{"start":12065.01,"end":12068.01,"text":"這兩年多的立法院的違憲亂政"},{"start":12068.01,"end":12069.01,"text":"我很遺憾的講"},{"start":12069.01,"end":12071.01,"text":"我們在場的很多文官"},{"start":12071.01,"end":12075.01,"text":"無視與立法院相關的法規"},{"start":12075.01,"end":12077.01,"text":"其實大法官來下言"},{"start":12077.01,"end":12080.01,"text":"大法官解釋14號也很清楚"},{"start":12080.01,"end":12086.01,"text":"監察權是可以對於各所屬機關的職員來行使權利"},{"start":12086.01,"end":12087.01,"text":"我只是要提醒"},{"start":12087.01,"end":12092.01,"text":"過去到現在對於立法院相關的案子調查只有三案"},{"start":12093.26,"end":12095.26,"text":"對於這些文官沒有看守"},{"start":12096.06,"end":12100.06,"text":"應當依法卻配合著立法院的"},{"start":12117.24,"end":12120.24,"text":"法案"},{"start":12127.54,"end":12129.54,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":12140.23,"end":12141.23,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":12141.96,"end":12144.96,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":12159.41,"end":12162.41,"text":"監察權對於立法院行使的各項權利"},{"start":12162.41,"end":12165.41,"text":"過去到現在只有三個調查案"},{"start":12165.41,"end":12173.41,"text":"其中兩案是針對具體有不當事件利益出動的臨襲三權"},{"start":12174.31,"end":12177.31,"text":"最偉大的投訴人員"},{"start":12177.31,"end":12179.31,"text":"我們也必須監察"},{"start":12181.67,"end":12183.67,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":12183.67,"end":12185.67,"text":"謝謝吳慧媛"},{"start":12191.48,"end":12193.48,"text":"謝謝吳慧媛"},{"start":12193.48,"end":12199.48,"text":"報告全院委員會對監察院副院長被提名人王榮章詢答部分"},{"start":12199.48,"end":12200.48,"text":"到此為止"},{"start":12200.48,"end":12203.48,"text":"謝謝王被提名人列席答詢"},{"start":12203.48,"end":12206.48,"text":"下午2點30分繼續開會"},{"start":12206.48,"end":12214.48,"text":"進行對監察委員被提名人高天惠 張菊芳 張豐義之詢問"},{"start":12214.48,"end":12215.48,"text":"現在休息"},{"start":21627.93,"end":21630.93,"text":"報告全院委員會現在繼續開會"},{"start":21630.93,"end":21641.93,"text":"今天下午分別審查監察委員被提名人高天惠 張菊芳 張豐義之資格及是否適任相關事項"},{"start":21641.93,"end":21642.93,"text":"審查時"},{"start":21643.87,"end":21647.87,"text":"由被提名人說明5分鐘後再進行5位委員詢問"},{"start":21647.87,"end":21651.87,"text":"每位委員詢答時間10分鐘"},{"start":21652.29,"end":21654.29,"text":"採集問及答方式進行"},{"start":21654.29,"end":21658.29,"text":"輪到詢問委員如果不在場 示威棄權"},{"start":21658.29,"end":21665.29,"text":"現在先審查被提名人高天惠之資格相關事項"},{"start":21665.29,"end":21669.29,"text":"請被提名人高天惠女士說明時間5分鐘"},{"start":21690.45,"end":21691.45,"text":"主席"},{"start":21692.27,"end":21693.27,"text":"各位"},{"start":21694.82,"end":21696.82,"text":"委員先生女士"},{"start":21697.28,"end":21699.28,"text":"大家好"},{"start":21700.42,"end":21702.42,"text":"我是監察委員"},{"start":21702.38,"end":21705.38,"text":"及國家人權委員會被提名人"},{"start":21705.38,"end":21707.38,"text":"讓大家馬上高天惠"},{"start":21707.9,"end":21710.9,"text":"非常感恩有幸對道願說明"},{"start":21711.59,"end":21716.59,"text":"我對監察院委員及人權保障工作的看法"},{"start":21717.6,"end":21719.6,"text":"接受各位委員的審查"},{"start":21719.6,"end":21721.6,"text":"請不設棄教"},{"start":21722.16,"end":21724.16,"text":"我是監察委員"},{"start":21723.76,"end":21724.76,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":21724.97,"end":21726.97,"text":"繼承了我父親的志業"},{"start":21726.97,"end":21728.97,"text":"教會的一個牧師"},{"start":21729.65,"end":21732.65,"text":"我出生在屏東縣北排灣族群"},{"start":21733.29,"end":21737.29,"text":"這個族群是一個非常特殊的文化特質"},{"start":21737.92,"end":21739.92,"text":"他的社會主成詩意"},{"start":21739.92,"end":21745.92,"text":"世系的貴族階級制度與展示繼承制度傳統"},{"start":21745.92,"end":21747.92,"text":"支持我的身份背景"},{"start":21750.64,"end":21752.64,"text":"屬於自由就被充權的機會"},{"start":21753.85,"end":21758.85,"text":"長世的身份讓我必須成為家族的一個領導者"},{"start":21758.85,"end":21761.85,"text":"也必須學習負擔整個"},{"start":21762.32,"end":21764.32,"text":"家裡的這種事物"},{"start":21765.27,"end":21767.27,"text":"同時為世"},{"start":21767.87,"end":21769.87,"text":"一個傳統領袖"},{"start":21770.03,"end":21772.03,"text":"也是牧師的身份"},{"start":21772.03,"end":21776.03,"text":"讓我必須共同分擔部落的照顧青年"},{"start":21776.95,"end":21782.95,"text":"我父親是排灣族黨老教會第一任牧師"},{"start":21782.95,"end":21786.95,"text":"我也是排灣族第一任的一個女性牧師"},{"start":21786.95,"end":21788.95,"text":"我的生命的一個轉捩點"},{"start":21788.95,"end":21792.95,"text":"就是在1989年6月23號"},{"start":21794.48,"end":21796.48,"text":"我風牧為牧師"},{"start":21797.32,"end":21799.32,"text":"那個時候就了一個使命"},{"start":21799.76,"end":21801.76,"text":"好"},{"start":21801.57,"end":21803.57,"text":"我身為一個牧者"},{"start":21803.8,"end":21806.8,"text":"除了教會內的一個宣教工作"},{"start":21807.36,"end":21809.36,"text":"一個非常重要的理念"},{"start":21809.36,"end":21811.36,"text":"一個價值"},{"start":21811.29,"end":21817.29,"text":"就是怎麼樣把自由公義平等的信仰信念和價值"},{"start":21817.29,"end":21820.29,"text":"透過行動和宣揚"},{"start":21820.29,"end":21828.29,"text":"讓牠能夠真正在部落在社區及大社會中活絡幾十件"},{"start":21828.29,"end":21831.29,"text":"立即信仰核心價值"},{"start":21831.29,"end":21835.29,"text":"就是我光懷弱勢的一個非常大的力量"},{"start":21835.29,"end":21837.29,"text":"就在1988年"},{"start":21837.29,"end":21839.29,"text":"排灣基督黨老教會總會"},{"start":21839.29,"end":21841.29,"text":"響應了WCC"},{"start":21841.29,"end":21845.29,"text":"是牧師教學團學婦女十年"},{"start":21845.29,"end":21848.29,"text":"那個時候我們總會的一個策略"},{"start":21848.29,"end":21852.29,"text":"也就是在排灣這個地方設五個點"},{"start":21852.29,"end":21855.29,"text":"排灣是其中一個點"},{"start":21855.29,"end":21858.29,"text":"1993年正式成立的時候"},{"start":21859.57,"end":21861.57,"text":"成立這個婦女光懷工作室"},{"start":21861.57,"end":21865.57,"text":"我被聘任為兼任的一個婦女幹事"},{"start":21865.57,"end":21867.57,"text":"那我最感為興奮的"},{"start":21869.32,"end":21871.32,"text":"就是我們"},{"start":21871.6,"end":21873.6,"text":"成立了一個文化成長班"},{"start":21874.64,"end":21876.64,"text":"然後我們部落的婦女"},{"start":21877.68,"end":21882.68,"text":"他們非常這種願意接受這樣的一個裝備"},{"start":21882.68,"end":21886.68,"text":"那每次他們從這個不同的山頭"},{"start":21886.68,"end":21888.68,"text":"部落不吃辛勞的"},{"start":21888.68,"end":21890.68,"text":"下山到屏東市"},{"start":21890.68,"end":21893.68,"text":"只是一個為了追求"},{"start":21893.68,"end":21895.68,"text":"在學識上的一個認知"},{"start":21895.68,"end":21898.68,"text":"所以我們從聖經來著墨"},{"start":21898.68,"end":21901.68,"text":"那過去是男性的主義"},{"start":21901.68,"end":21904.68,"text":"來詮釋這個聖經"},{"start":21904.68,"end":21907.68,"text":"那後來透過我們的學習"},{"start":21907.68,"end":21911.68,"text":"我們重新研讀聖經裡的故事與教導"},{"start":21911.68,"end":21915.68,"text":"讓過去以男性眼光解讀的神學詮釋"},{"start":21915.68,"end":21917.68,"text":"得到更好的平衡"},{"start":21917.68,"end":21920.68,"text":"讓婦女們逐漸瞭解"},{"start":21920.68,"end":21922.68,"text":"兩性之間的差異"},{"start":21922.68,"end":21924.68,"text":"在於角色的不同"},{"start":21924.68,"end":21929.68,"text":"而非天生身份有歸見之分"},{"start":21929.68,"end":21931.68,"text":"然後我們也一樣的"},{"start":21931.68,"end":21934.68,"text":"也一樣的深入我們的服務範圍"},{"start":21935.47,"end":21940.47,"text":"我們設立了婦女光懷學會"},{"start":21940.47,"end":21943.47,"text":"那在那個地方我們也學習"},{"start":21943.47,"end":21947.47,"text":"來接案這個公部門的案件"},{"start":21947.47,"end":21951.47,"text":"讓我們跟公部門能夠合作"},{"start":21951.47,"end":21954.47,"text":"我們成立了婦女書院"},{"start":21954.47,"end":21957.47,"text":"我們的服務退展到部落"},{"start":21957.47,"end":21960.47,"text":"那2001年的時候"},{"start":21960.47,"end":21963.47,"text":"我更與一群女性同工"},{"start":21963.47,"end":21966.47,"text":"我們把原先的組織能量"},{"start":21966.47,"end":21968.47,"text":"成立了社團法人"},{"start":21968.47,"end":21972.47,"text":"屏東縣原住民水擔當光懷學會"},{"start":21972.47,"end":21975.47,"text":"我們著手規劃部落婦女"},{"start":21975.47,"end":21980.47,"text":"開始學習民族政治的一個啟蒙教育"},{"start":21980.47,"end":21983.47,"text":"當年我剛好也被聘為"},{"start":21983.47,"end":21986.47,"text":"原民會的性別小組委員會"},{"start":21986.47,"end":21990.47,"text":"那參與公部門的人權的推動工作"},{"start":21990.47,"end":21992.47,"text":"我更廣泛認知到"},{"start":21992.47,"end":21994.47,"text":"部落遭到的各種權益"},{"start":22010.92,"end":22013.92,"text":"其他的我們以書面好不好"},{"start":22013.92,"end":22016.92,"text":"沒有講完的部分我們用書面說明"},{"start":22018.8,"end":22020.8,"text":"謝謝高被提名人質說明"},{"start":22024.27,"end":22026.27,"text":"現在進行委員詢問"},{"start":22026.27,"end":22028.27,"text":"首先請林委員處英詢問"},{"start":22050.32,"end":22051.32,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":22051.32,"end":22053.32,"text":"主席有請高被提名人"},{"start":22053.66,"end":22055.66,"text":"請高被提名人備詢"},{"start":22067.5,"end":22068.5,"text":"拜提名人您好"},{"start":22069.38,"end":22070.38,"text":"你好"},{"start":22070.38,"end":22073.38,"text":"首次站上這個立法院"},{"start":22073.38,"end":22076.38,"text":"可能剛剛您只有五分鐘的時間"},{"start":22076.97,"end":22077.97,"text":"那麼"},{"start":22078.15,"end":22081.15,"text":"可能有一些您未來當做監委"},{"start":22081.54,"end":22084.54,"text":"可能想要做的這些想法跟做法"},{"start":22084.54,"end":22085.54,"text":"也許時間不夠"},{"start":22085.54,"end":22089.54,"text":"所以我想既然我是第一位質詢的"},{"start":22089.54,"end":22090.54,"text":"我就想請問您"},{"start":22090.54,"end":22093.54,"text":"過去您曾經擔任過總統府的"},{"start":22093.54,"end":22098.54,"text":"原住民族歷史正義與轉型正義委員會的委員"},{"start":22098.54,"end":22100.54,"text":"而您剛剛也提到了"},{"start":22100.54,"end":22101.54,"text":"您本身是一個牧師"},{"start":22101.54,"end":22104.54,"text":"長期關注的就是原住民族的權益"},{"start":22104.54,"end":22106.54,"text":"以及婦女的權益"},{"start":22106.54,"end":22108.54,"text":"如果身為監察委員"},{"start":22108.54,"end":22112.54,"text":"您認為在原住民族相關的權益"},{"start":22112.54,"end":22113.54,"text":"尤其是在您的書面報告"},{"start":22113.54,"end":22117.54,"text":"特別提到有關於弱勢部落的維護"},{"start":22117.54,"end":22119.54,"text":"那麼您會認為有哪一些部分"},{"start":22119.54,"end":22121.54,"text":"是您擔任監委之後"},{"start":22121.54,"end":22123.54,"text":"會主動去關心了解"},{"start":22123.54,"end":22125.54,"text":"甚至於調查的部分"},{"start":22126.29,"end":22128.29,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":22128.94,"end":22129.44,"text":"呃"},{"start":22130.99,"end":22133.99,"text":"如何把我在第一線的服務經驗"},{"start":22134.46,"end":22137.46,"text":"能夠轉化為監察的一個專業"},{"start":22138.73,"end":22140.73,"text":"這個是我在思考的問題"},{"start":22141.79,"end":22145.79,"text":"那我深信這個監察院的專業是一個多元性的"},{"start":22146.58,"end":22148.58,"text":"不應該就停在學裡"},{"start":22149.4,"end":22151.4,"text":"或者是職業背景的組合"},{"start":22152.5,"end":22156.5,"text":"他也應該包括了第一線的一個服務"},{"start":22156.82,"end":22159.82,"text":"那第一線的服務非常重要的"},{"start":22159.82,"end":22161.82,"text":"就是群聼民眾"},{"start":22161.82,"end":22164.82,"text":"然後發現制度問題的能力"},{"start":22164.82,"end":22167.82,"text":"那本人長期在屏東部落"},{"start":22167.82,"end":22169.82,"text":"從事這個幕會"},{"start":22169.82,"end":22173.82,"text":"然後還有社會服務民間的團體"},{"start":22174.66,"end":22176.66,"text":"那我常常這樣認為"},{"start":22179.28,"end":22182.28,"text":"我用三個面向來在這個地方來做回應"},{"start":22183.42,"end":22183.92,"text":"第一個"},{"start":22184.97,"end":22187.97,"text":"要學習一個會傾聽"},{"start":22187.97,"end":22189.97,"text":"然後整理"},{"start":22190.57,"end":22193.57,"text":"力不足調查案件的前端"},{"start":22194.13,"end":22196.13,"text":"過去在部落服務的時候"},{"start":22196.85,"end":22198.85,"text":"民眾陳述問題"},{"start":22198.85,"end":22200.85,"text":"往往要反覆傾聽"},{"start":22200.85,"end":22204.85,"text":"追問才能理清他們真正的困境"},{"start":22206.1,"end":22209.1,"text":"但是尤其是在那個2001年"},{"start":22209.1,"end":22212.1,"text":"當學校被踩拼的時候"},{"start":22212.1,"end":22213.1,"text":"我們"},{"start":22213.49,"end":22217.49,"text":"整個部落陷入到一個非常邊緣"},{"start":22217.49,"end":22220.49,"text":"又邊緣的在那個地方"},{"start":22220.49,"end":22223.49,"text":"就學習了怎麼聆聽部落"},{"start":22223.49,"end":22225.49,"text":"怎麼聆聽婦女的一個故事"},{"start":22225.49,"end":22227.49,"text":"那個非常重要的"},{"start":22227.49,"end":22228.49,"text":"在這個地方"},{"start":22228.49,"end":22231.49,"text":"我就覺得如果我在第一線"},{"start":22231.49,"end":22233.49,"text":"一個學會聆聽"},{"start":22233.49,"end":22239.49,"text":"然後他們的困境轉化為具體的"},{"start":22239.49,"end":22241.49,"text":"應該可以對應機關"},{"start":22241.49,"end":22243.49,"text":"這個跟這些"},{"start":22245.77,"end":22247.77,"text":"資源的提案的能力"},{"start":22247.77,"end":22250.77,"text":"然後跟監察院受理陳情"},{"start":22250.77,"end":22254.77,"text":"決定是否立案調查這邏輯三通"},{"start":22254.77,"end":22256.77,"text":"那第二個我也這樣認為"},{"start":22257.95,"end":22260.95,"text":"與調查人員能夠分工合作"},{"start":22261.41,"end":22265.41,"text":"補足前端不是要取代專業"},{"start":22265.41,"end":22271.41,"text":"我非常相信監察院調查這個官"},{"start":22271.41,"end":22274.41,"text":"他具備了紮實的一個法律"},{"start":22274.68,"end":22276.68,"text":"跟這個行政的一個訓練"},{"start":22276.68,"end":22280.68,"text":"擅長依法認定機關的維持"},{"start":22280.68,"end":22283.68,"text":"到這個檢查調查之核心"},{"start":22283.68,"end":22284.68,"text":"本人"},{"start":22285.83,"end":22289.83,"text":"絕對相信我的第一線的一個資料"},{"start":22290.25,"end":22292.25,"text":"透過的這個"},{"start":22293.37,"end":22295.37,"text":"專業"},{"start":22295.01,"end":22297.01,"text":"這個生活的一個困境"},{"start":22297.53,"end":22300.53,"text":"會變成可以立案的一個門檻"},{"start":22301.02,"end":22306.02,"text":"然後不是僅處於就處其表面而已"},{"start":22306.02,"end":22308.02,"text":"所以在我擔任這個"},{"start":22309.03,"end":22311.03,"text":"總統委員的時候"},{"start":22312.05,"end":22313.05,"text":"還有這個"},{"start":22314.43,"end":22316.43,"text":"處長會的委員的時候"},{"start":22316.73,"end":22318.73,"text":"已經有這樣的一個類似的一個經驗"},{"start":22319.75,"end":22322.75,"text":"就像吳寶中移國訪翻案"},{"start":22322.75,"end":22326.75,"text":"還有卓西所留單的事件增向調查"},{"start":22326.75,"end":22330.75,"text":"還有周竹杜孝生案件的平反"},{"start":22330.75,"end":22334.75,"text":"這個都是本人在部落反查"},{"start":22334.75,"end":22339.75,"text":"勤聽其老家屬或專家敘述的過程"},{"start":22339.75,"end":22341.75,"text":"然後發掘"},{"start":22342.97,"end":22345.97,"text":"成為一個案件的線索一脈絡"},{"start":22345.97,"end":22349.97,"text":"再交給這個檔案調閱"},{"start":22349.97,"end":22352.97,"text":"隨處研究等專業單位進行"},{"start":22352.97,"end":22355.97,"text":"正式的調查考證"},{"start":22355.97,"end":22358.97,"text":"最後促成了疑苦訪翻"},{"start":22358.97,"end":22360.97,"text":"還原這個歷史真相"},{"start":22360.97,"end":22363.97,"text":"平反不但的判決"},{"start":22363.97,"end":22365.97,"text":"然後在第一線發掘"},{"start":22367.35,"end":22370.35,"text":"專業單位查證的豐功模式"},{"start":22370.35,"end":22374.35,"text":"正是本人未來擔任監察委員以後"},{"start":22374.35,"end":22377.35,"text":"希望跟這些調查人員"},{"start":22377.35,"end":22379.35,"text":"建立一個合作的一個模式"},{"start":22380.18,"end":22384.18,"text":"然後由本人協助提出線索"},{"start":22384.18,"end":22386.18,"text":"與問題脈絡"},{"start":22386.18,"end":22390.18,"text":"再由專業調查人員依法"},{"start":22390.18,"end":22394.18,"text":"定程序查證認定責任"},{"start":22394.18,"end":22399.18,"text":"然後現在延伸到這個監察的一個服務"},{"start":22399.18,"end":22401.18,"text":"把這個入室族群"},{"start":22401.18,"end":22404.18,"text":"跟邊鄉部落"},{"start":22404.18,"end":22408.18,"text":"本人將運用過去的建立"},{"start":22408.75,"end":22410.75,"text":"部落的一個信任關係"},{"start":22410.75,"end":22413.75,"text":"主動協助原住民族婦女"},{"start":22413.75,"end":22416.75,"text":"港老等他們不熟悉"},{"start":22416.75,"end":22420.75,"text":"陳情程序的民眾"},{"start":22420.75,"end":22422.75,"text":"可以他們的問題"},{"start":22422.75,"end":22426.75,"text":"進入到監察院調查程序"},{"start":22426.75,"end":22431.75,"text":"若使監察服務向下延伸"},{"start":22432.26,"end":22435.26,"text":"查清問題請為第一步"},{"start":22435.8,"end":22439.8,"text":"本人也要將每件調查案"},{"start":22440.05,"end":22443.05,"text":"除了使出機關的委事外"},{"start":22443.87,"end":22447.87,"text":"應該提出具體可行的改善意見"},{"start":22447.87,"end":22451.87,"text":"並追蹤後續任改善情形"},{"start":22451.87,"end":22455.87,"text":"發揮監察防備與信利制"},{"start":22455.87,"end":22457.87,"text":"酸重功能"},{"start":22457.87,"end":22458.87,"text":"好 高級民人"},{"start":22458.87,"end":22460.87,"text":"我其實從你的這個三點"},{"start":22460.87,"end":22463.87,"text":"可以看到你確實是真的有備而來"},{"start":22463.87,"end":22465.87,"text":"而且對於我們原住民族的權益"},{"start":22465.87,"end":22467.87,"text":"尤其是弱勢的原住民族"},{"start":22467.87,"end":22470.87,"text":"在第一線所面臨的陳情案"},{"start":22470.87,"end":22472.87,"text":"其實是非常的關注"},{"start":22472.87,"end":22476.87,"text":"但是如果根據監察院歷年來的統計"},{"start":22476.87,"end":22480.87,"text":"會發現說每年人民的請願案"},{"start":22480.87,"end":22484.87,"text":"一年就高達了15000件"},{"start":22484.87,"end":22486.87,"text":"等於是說一個月當中"},{"start":22486.87,"end":22489.87,"text":"大概就將近有1300件"},{"start":22489.87,"end":22492.87,"text":"但是我們知道除了人民的請願"},{"start":22492.87,"end":22495.87,"text":"關係到人民的權利之外"},{"start":22495.87,"end":22496.87,"text":"其實更重要的是"},{"start":22496.87,"end":22501.87,"text":"我們都知道國家人權委員會的成員"},{"start":22501.87,"end":22503.87,"text":"是由監察委員來兼任的"},{"start":22503.87,"end":22506.87,"text":"可是他們在今年的7月31號"},{"start":22506.87,"end":22509.87,"text":"也就是上個月底就已經戒滿了"},{"start":22509.87,"end":22511.87,"text":"那麼言下之意"},{"start":22511.87,"end":22513.87,"text":"就是現在國家人權委員會"},{"start":22513.87,"end":22516.87,"text":"是一個實質無法運作的狀況"},{"start":22516.87,"end":22519.87,"text":"但是我不知道監委有沒有注意到"},{"start":22519.87,"end":22521.87,"text":"就是今年的11月"},{"start":22521.87,"end":22524.87,"text":"台灣要舉行身心障礙者權利公約的"},{"start":22524.87,"end":22528.87,"text":"第三次國家報告的國際審查"},{"start":22528.87,"end":22530.87,"text":"明年2027年也會有兒童權利公約的"},{"start":22530.87,"end":22534.87,"text":"第三次的國家報告的國際審查"},{"start":22534.87,"end":22537.87,"text":"那麼這兩個都是由衛福部"},{"start":22537.87,"end":22539.87,"text":"來提出國家級的報告"},{"start":22539.87,"end":22543.87,"text":"要交給監察院來做報告的審核"},{"start":22543.87,"end":22545.87,"text":"那我們都知道監察院"},{"start":22545.87,"end":22548.87,"text":"必須在巴黎公約的情況底下"},{"start":22548.87,"end":22551.87,"text":"作為一個獨立的行使的機構"},{"start":22551.87,"end":22553.87,"text":"但是如果說現在"},{"start":22553.87,"end":22555.87,"text":"呈現國家人權委員會"},{"start":22555.87,"end":22558.87,"text":"空轉甚至於不能說是空轉"},{"start":22558.87,"end":22560.87,"text":"是整個停頓的狀況底下"},{"start":22560.87,"end":22562.87,"text":"剛剛您所說的"},{"start":22562.87,"end":22564.87,"text":"所訴求的是要保障弱勢"},{"start":22566.06,"end":22568.06,"text":"保障部落權益"},{"start":22568.06,"end":22569.06,"text":"保障婦女"},{"start":22569.06,"end":22571.06,"text":"但是現在等於形同"},{"start":22571.06,"end":22574.06,"text":"無法運作的狀況底下"},{"start":22574.06,"end":22576.06,"text":"那麼您認為這樣的狀況"},{"start":22576.06,"end":22577.06,"text":"要如何來面對"},{"start":22577.06,"end":22579.06,"text":"那麼未來還可以繼續的"},{"start":22580.28,"end":22583.28,"text":"發揮捍衛你想捍衛的弱勢"},{"start":22583.28,"end":22585.28,"text":"或是原住民族的權利嗎"},{"start":22586.12,"end":22587.12,"text":"好的"},{"start":22587.12,"end":22592.12,"text":"是的這個是國際人權委員會"},{"start":22592.12,"end":22595.12,"text":"可能也在他們擔心的問題"},{"start":22595.12,"end":22598.12,"text":"那現在是已經是空轉時期"},{"start":22598.12,"end":22603.12,"text":"那剛好這個CRC跟這個CRPD"},{"start":22603.12,"end":22607.12,"text":"他們今年在這個國際的審查"},{"start":22607.12,"end":22609.12,"text":"這個是一個非常可貴的"},{"start":22609.12,"end":22614.12,"text":"是臺灣少數能夠與國際人權體系接軌"},{"start":22614.35,"end":22616.35,"text":"表示人權治理成果的一個"},{"start":22616.35,"end":22618.35,"text":"非常重要的一個產業"},{"start":22619.31,"end":22622.31,"text":"若國家人權委員會因人力不足"},{"start":22623.48,"end":22625.48,"text":"而無法妥善準備報告"},{"start":22626.47,"end":22628.47,"text":"然後參與審查對話"},{"start":22628.47,"end":22631.47,"text":"或者是提出具體的回應"},{"start":22631.47,"end":22634.47,"text":"不僅是會使審查過程"},{"start":22634.47,"end":22636.47,"text":"流於形式"},{"start":22636.47,"end":22638.47,"text":"更可能讓國際專家"},{"start":22638.47,"end":22642.47,"text":"對臺灣人權機制的獨立性"},{"start":22642.47,"end":22645.47,"text":"能力與誠意產生質疑"},{"start":22645.47,"end":22647.47,"text":"對臺灣產企"},{"start":22647.47,"end":22650.47,"text":"爭取國際人權社群認同"},{"start":22650.47,"end":22653.47,"text":"鞏固隨不適聯合國會員"},{"start":22653.47,"end":22655.47,"text":"但是仍積極"},{"start":22655.47,"end":22657.47,"text":"力行公約之努力"},{"start":22657.47,"end":22660.47,"text":"會形成實質的一個損傷"},{"start":22660.47,"end":22663.47,"text":"那另外本人也一樣的"},{"start":22663.47,"end":22666.47,"text":"會運用產企在原住民主"},{"start":22666.47,"end":22668.47,"text":"偏鄉部落"},{"start":22668.47,"end":22672.47,"text":"進入一個信任的一個晚宴"},{"start":22672.47,"end":22673.47,"text":"協助受到"},{"start":22690.59,"end":22692.59,"text":"好 謝謝林委員"},{"start":22694.78,"end":22696.78,"text":"現在我們請林茜琪委員詢問"},{"start":22708.62,"end":22711.62,"text":"主席 各位同仁大家好"},{"start":22711.62,"end":22713.62,"text":"我們請貝提明人"},{"start":22713.62,"end":22715.62,"text":"高庭明人 謝謝"},{"start":22715.62,"end":22718.62,"text":"我們請貝提明人"},{"start":22728.72,"end":22731.72,"text":"我們高貝提明人你好"},{"start":22733.73,"end":22737.73,"text":"今天我想就關於監察院相關的議題"},{"start":22739.06,"end":22742.06,"text":"在職權的這個部分還有在"},{"start":22742.32,"end":22744.32,"text":"關於查查的這個部分"},{"start":22744.32,"end":22746.32,"text":"跟您做個請教"},{"start":22746.35,"end":22749.35,"text":"那就本席對您資料的了解"},{"start":22749.35,"end":22752.35,"text":"那因為您應該是玉山神學院畢業的嘛"},{"start":22752.69,"end":22754.69,"text":"你有在玉山 對吧"},{"start":22754.89,"end":22755.89,"text":"有過嗎"},{"start":22755.99,"end":22756.99,"text":"有"},{"start":22759.28,"end":22760.28,"text":"是 是的"},{"start":22760.28,"end":22762.28,"text":"因為我過去也在那邊教書"},{"start":22762.28,"end":22764.28,"text":"所以對玉神有一些了解"},{"start":22764.28,"end":22767.28,"text":"所以有一些相關的這個背景"},{"start":22767.28,"end":22769.28,"text":"所以本席就要針對"},{"start":22769.28,"end":22772.28,"text":"有關於監察院的這個職權"},{"start":22772.28,"end":22774.28,"text":"和我們原住民族的權益"},{"start":22774.28,"end":22777.28,"text":"這邊來跟您做一個請教"},{"start":22777.28,"end":22778.28,"text":"首先呢"},{"start":22778.28,"end":22781.28,"text":"本席請教有關於監察院最基本的問題"},{"start":22781.28,"end":22785.28,"text":"那麼面對社會長期存在著"},{"start":22785.28,"end":22787.28,"text":"廢除監察院的主張"},{"start":22787.28,"end":22789.28,"text":"那麼您個人的立場是什麼"},{"start":22790.7,"end":22794.7,"text":"你認為監察院在現在五權憲政的架構之下"},{"start":22794.7,"end":22797.7,"text":"最不可被取代的功能是什麼"},{"start":22800.7,"end":22801.7,"text":"好 謝謝委員"},{"start":22802.37,"end":22804.37,"text":"那在這個地方"},{"start":22804.37,"end":22807.37,"text":"監察院的這個除非與否"},{"start":22807.37,"end":22811.37,"text":"就是目前很熱門的一個議題"},{"start":22812.18,"end":22814.18,"text":"那在我的這種認知上"},{"start":22815.5,"end":22817.5,"text":"因為這個"},{"start":22818.15,"end":22823.15,"text":"監察院是屬於憲政城市的核心議題"},{"start":22824.38,"end":22826.38,"text":"那"},{"start":22825.93,"end":22827.93,"text":"在那個徵修條文"},{"start":22828.36,"end":22832.36,"text":"也明定憲政體制更是一個"},{"start":22832.36,"end":22834.36,"text":"變更這個憲政體制"},{"start":22834.36,"end":22837.36,"text":"更是一個非常重大的議題"},{"start":22837.36,"end":22840.36,"text":"現在我們還沒有提到變更的問題"},{"start":22840.36,"end":22842.36,"text":"所以你認為"},{"start":22842.36,"end":22845.36,"text":"監察院這不可以被取代的功能是什麼"},{"start":22846.57,"end":22848.57,"text":"呃"},{"start":22847.94,"end":22850.94,"text":"所以那個監察院被取代的功能"},{"start":22850.94,"end":22852.94,"text":"這不能被取代的功能"},{"start":22852.94,"end":22855.94,"text":"我深信這個監察院"},{"start":22855.94,"end":22859.94,"text":"它有具備的一個功能"},{"start":22860.07,"end":22863.07,"text":"如果按照這個監察法我們在看的時候"},{"start":22863.07,"end":22867.07,"text":"真的是一個國家一個非常重要的一個區"},{"start":22867.07,"end":22869.07,"text":"最高機構"},{"start":22869.07,"end":22875.07,"text":"可以監察各個這個院會所謂的五權分立"},{"start":22876.76,"end":22878.76,"text":"所以監察院要監督"},{"start":22878.76,"end":22881.76,"text":"跟查查五權正義這是您的看法嗎"},{"start":22881.76,"end":22884.76,"text":"所以他們這不能被取代的功能是這樣"},{"start":22885.6,"end":22889.6,"text":"這個是我尊重因為畢竟我不是在這個地方在做研究"},{"start":22889.6,"end":22893.6,"text":"那我非常會尊重國會的這一個"},{"start":22893.6,"end":22896.6,"text":"是倡議還是議決"},{"start":22896.6,"end":22899.6,"text":"或者是公民的這種想法"},{"start":22899.6,"end":22902.6,"text":"如果您尊重國會的議決的話"},{"start":22902.6,"end":22905.6,"text":"那本席這邊先做一個背景的說明"},{"start":22905.6,"end":22908.6,"text":"然後我們就針對您剛才談到的"},{"start":22908.6,"end":22910.6,"text":"尊重國會的議決"},{"start":22910.6,"end":22912.6,"text":"所以本席用這個問題打頭陣"},{"start":22912.6,"end":22914.6,"text":"尊重國會的議決的原因"},{"start":22914.6,"end":22918.6,"text":"就是因為第六屆的這個監委的表現"},{"start":22918.6,"end":22922.6,"text":"讓社會對於監察制度有很大的疑慮"},{"start":22922.6,"end":22924.6,"text":"這個部分呢"},{"start":22924.6,"end":22928.6,"text":"包括不知道你知不知道在第六屆的監察委員"},{"start":22928.6,"end":22932.6,"text":"其實大量的使用一些委託調查"},{"start":22932.6,"end":22936.6,"text":"那我想監察委員本身應該有調查的能力"},{"start":22936.6,"end":22938.6,"text":"也有調查的權利"},{"start":22938.6,"end":22939.6,"text":"但是呢"},{"start":22939.6,"end":22941.6,"text":"如果您用太大量的委託調查"},{"start":22941.6,"end":22944.6,"text":"那你覺得監察委員自己的功能又是什麼"},{"start":22944.6,"end":22946.6,"text":"那除了這點之外呢"},{"start":22946.6,"end":22949.6,"text":"我想您也知道有關於一些公務車的爭議"},{"start":22949.6,"end":22953.6,"text":"那麼院會經常開會很短就結束了"},{"start":22953.6,"end":22955.6,"text":"那本席要請你思考一下"},{"start":22955.6,"end":22959.6,"text":"如果人民看到一個應該監督政府的憲政機關"},{"start":22959.6,"end":22961.6,"text":"最重要的是監督政府"},{"start":22961.6,"end":22965.6,"text":"這個應該是監察院不能被取代的功能"},{"start":22965.6,"end":22967.6,"text":"那自己卻不斷發生了行政管理"},{"start":22967.6,"end":22969.6,"text":"公務資源使用"},{"start":22969.6,"end":22973.6,"text":"甚至職權使用行使的效能上的爭議"},{"start":22973.6,"end":22976.6,"text":"那麼人民為什麼要相信監察院"},{"start":22976.6,"end":22978.6,"text":"所以如果你有機會成為監察委員"},{"start":22978.6,"end":22980.6,"text":"你認為第七屆監察委員"},{"start":22980.6,"end":22984.6,"text":"最需要檢討的跟要被改變的是什麼"},{"start":22984.6,"end":22987.6,"text":"怎麼樣做才能讓人民來相信監察院"},{"start":22987.6,"end":22989.6,"text":"那所以本席要用最近的案例"},{"start":22989.6,"end":22991.6,"text":"跟您做一下提點"},{"start":22991.6,"end":22993.6,"text":"剛才問題的一個補充"},{"start":22993.6,"end":22995.6,"text":"所以最近行政院長"},{"start":22995.6,"end":22998.6,"text":"對於立法院三讀通過的裁劃法"},{"start":22998.6,"end":23000.6,"text":"採取不附屬的方式"},{"start":23000.6,"end":23003.6,"text":"使法律無法完成公布施行程序"},{"start":23003.6,"end":23007.6,"text":"造成行政跟立法權的憲政衝突"},{"start":23007.6,"end":23010.6,"text":"立法院的司法及法治委員會"},{"start":23010.6,"end":23014.6,"text":"也決議以請監察院處理彈劾"},{"start":23014.6,"end":23020.6,"text":"那之後更有立法委員正式向監察院來遞交懲情書"},{"start":23020.6,"end":23024.6,"text":"要求調查行政院長有沒有涉及重大為師"},{"start":23024.6,"end":23026.6,"text":"結果等了七個多月"},{"start":23026.6,"end":23028.6,"text":"那最近監察院回覆說"},{"start":23028.6,"end":23030.6,"text":"不予立案調查"},{"start":23030.6,"end":23032.6,"text":"甚至連具體的理由都沒有"},{"start":23032.6,"end":23033.6,"text":"你認為這樣的處理方式"},{"start":23033.6,"end":23036.6,"text":"監察院作為最高監察機關"},{"start":23036.6,"end":23038.6,"text":"這是應有的責任嗎"},{"start":23039.96,"end":23041.96,"text":"好"},{"start":23041.29,"end":23043.29,"text":"那關於這個"},{"start":23043.29,"end":23046.29,"text":"剛剛所說的第六屆的"},{"start":23046.29,"end":23051.29,"text":"關於這個案件的這個多管"},{"start":23051.29,"end":23054.29,"text":"也就是你覺得如果您被選上了"},{"start":23054.29,"end":23056.29,"text":"那麼第七屆的監察委員"},{"start":23056.29,"end":23057.29,"text":"這應該要改變什麼"},{"start":23057.29,"end":23059.29,"text":"才能夠讓大家幸福"},{"start":23059.29,"end":23062.29,"text":"那本席剛才用剛才剛有了這個案例"},{"start":23062.29,"end":23063.29,"text":"跟您做個補充"},{"start":23063.29,"end":23064.29,"text":"所以您的看法是如何"},{"start":23064.29,"end":23066.29,"text":"所以本庭的人士"},{"start":23066.29,"end":23072.29,"text":"也是一個非常深切了解國家機關"},{"start":23072.29,"end":23075.29,"text":"都背負了一個公眾的托付"},{"start":23075.29,"end":23078.29,"text":"所以你覺得監察院應不應該要立案調查"},{"start":23079.51,"end":23081.51,"text":"剛才本席講的這個案例"},{"start":23081.51,"end":23083.51,"text":"剛剛關於這個人事問題"},{"start":23083.51,"end":23085.51,"text":"我比較困難做回應"},{"start":23085.51,"end":23087.51,"text":"因為好像"},{"start":23087.51,"end":23088.51,"text":"應該不是人事問題"},{"start":23088.51,"end":23091.51,"text":"這個是立法院送了一個案到監察院"},{"start":23091.51,"end":23095.51,"text":"那監察院回覆不立案調查"},{"start":23095.51,"end":23097.51,"text":"那您覺得這個監察院這樣子的回覆"},{"start":23098.51,"end":23099.51,"text":"恰當嗎"},{"start":23100.49,"end":23102.49,"text":"因為關於這個"},{"start":23102.49,"end":23107.49,"text":"一定要實際的了解整個內容跟來龍去脈"},{"start":23107.49,"end":23110.49,"text":"那在一個地方深度了解的時候"},{"start":23110.49,"end":23114.49,"text":"你才可以有一個比較正確的回應"},{"start":23114.49,"end":23118.49,"text":"這個案子應該是最近大家蠻熟知的"},{"start":23118.49,"end":23120.49,"text":"也就是立法院立案"},{"start":23120.49,"end":23123.49,"text":"我們也確定了這個案"},{"start":23123.49,"end":23124.49,"text":"我們送到了監察院去"},{"start":23124.49,"end":23126.49,"text":"結果監察院回覆"},{"start":23126.49,"end":23127.49,"text":"那不立案調查"},{"start":23127.49,"end":23130.49,"text":"所以如果你是一個監察委員"},{"start":23130.49,"end":23133.49,"text":"針對人民或者是公務體系"},{"start":23133.49,"end":23136.49,"text":"覺得不公義"},{"start":23136.49,"end":23139.49,"text":"然後而送出的希望監察院來立案"},{"start":23139.49,"end":23141.49,"text":"但是你們回覆了不立案調查"},{"start":23141.49,"end":23143.49,"text":"您覺得這樣子是恰當的嗎"},{"start":23144.97,"end":23146.97,"text":"還是一樣"},{"start":23146.97,"end":23149.97,"text":"我也有看到這樣的一個文本"},{"start":23149.97,"end":23150.97,"text":"所以您覺得"},{"start":23150.97,"end":23153.97,"text":"如果您有機會當監察委員的話"},{"start":23154.83,"end":23155.83,"text":"針對這個案"},{"start":23155.83,"end":23156.83,"text":"那您覺得要立案調查嗎"},{"start":23156.83,"end":23158.83,"text":"我想內文都非常清楚了"},{"start":23158.83,"end":23160.83,"text":"如果有機會"},{"start":23160.83,"end":23163.83,"text":"有這個榮幸當這個監察委員的時候"},{"start":23163.83,"end":23166.83,"text":"一定是會去深度了解"},{"start":23166.83,"end":23168.83,"text":"然後他有他的必要性"},{"start":23168.83,"end":23170.83,"text":"大家都會去深度了解的"},{"start":23170.83,"end":23175.83,"text":"所以你會不會花很多時間在深度了解"},{"start":23175.83,"end":23179.83,"text":"但是可能答案沒有在沒有辦法在一定的時間內給"},{"start":23179.83,"end":23180.83,"text":"會不會"},{"start":23181.25,"end":23182.25,"text":"我們會思考一下"},{"start":23182.25,"end":23183.25,"text":"您思考一下"},{"start":23183.25,"end":23184.25,"text":"那針對這案"},{"start":23184.25,"end":23186.25,"text":"如果我們沒有得到你的答案"},{"start":23186.25,"end":23188.25,"text":"那我們也很難知道您的態度是什麼"},{"start":23188.25,"end":23189.25,"text":"我比較可惜"},{"start":23189.25,"end":23192.25,"text":"因為這個案是最近大家都討論的"},{"start":23192.25,"end":23194.25,"text":"所以也希望您針對這個案"},{"start":23194.25,"end":23197.25,"text":"能夠有一個態度跟想法"},{"start":23197.25,"end":23204.25,"text":"好那接下來本席就針對有關於原住民的議題來跟您就教"},{"start":23207.73,"end":23209.73,"text":"我相信你我身為一個原住民"},{"start":23209.73,"end":23213.73,"text":"對原住民的這個正義一定是非常重視的"},{"start":23214.19,"end":23217.19,"text":"那剛才本席問您的是有關於"},{"start":23217.19,"end":23220.19,"text":"監察院對行政院或者是立法院"},{"start":23220.19,"end":23224.19,"text":"或者是其他的寺院有相關的為師"},{"start":23225.25,"end":23227.25,"text":"有提出一些案件的這個請求"},{"start":23227.25,"end":23230.25,"text":"但是可能您的態度還不太明"},{"start":23230.25,"end":23232.25,"text":"您說要深入的這個了解"},{"start":23232.25,"end":23235.25,"text":"那但是我相信長期在原住民的領域裡面"},{"start":23235.25,"end":23238.25,"text":"你對於源泉運動應該是非常了解的"},{"start":23238.25,"end":23239.25,"text":"對不對"},{"start":23239.17,"end":23241.17,"text":"那您大概對於"},{"start":23241.85,"end":23244.85,"text":"原住民的議題您最關注的可不可以再"},{"start":23245.48,"end":23248.48,"text":"十秒鐘之內根本是講您關注的這個議題"},{"start":23251.27,"end":23253.27,"text":"那原住民您關注的議題"},{"start":23253.88,"end":23256.88,"text":"好那正貴這個針對這個議題"},{"start":23256.88,"end":23258.88,"text":"也是一樣"},{"start":23258.88,"end":23262.88,"text":"這個可能就是要更深入去了解"},{"start":23262.88,"end":23264.88,"text":"您已經有這個經驗了"},{"start":23264.88,"end":23265.88,"text":"您還要再深入的了解"},{"start":23265.88,"end":23268.88,"text":"您的經驗裡面對原住民"},{"start":23268.88,"end":23270.88,"text":"我想您剛才其實在回答前一位委員"},{"start":23270.88,"end":23272.88,"text":"都有講到一些"},{"start":23272.88,"end":23274.88,"text":"只是本席要跟您再確認"},{"start":23274.88,"end":23276.88,"text":"所以其實您有一些關注的議題"},{"start":23276.88,"end":23279.88,"text":"但是您剛才可能對本席的這個問題"},{"start":23279.88,"end":23281.88,"text":"也有一些想法"},{"start":23281.88,"end":23283.88,"text":"也沒有回應"},{"start":23283.88,"end":23285.88,"text":"本席想要跟您請教"},{"start":23285.88,"end":23287.88,"text":"我想您先前是在原轉會"},{"start":23287.88,"end":23289.88,"text":"那應該您在原轉會做一些努力"},{"start":23289.88,"end":23292.88,"text":"但是本席剛才其實也給您一些機會"},{"start":23292.88,"end":23294.88,"text":"來針對您的努力"},{"start":23294.88,"end":23296.88,"text":"做一些確認"},{"start":23296.88,"end":23298.88,"text":"但是這個部分本席沒有聽到答案"},{"start":23298.88,"end":23300.88,"text":"那本席就先問您"},{"start":23300.88,"end":23302.88,"text":"你也看到本席的牌子這邊談到"},{"start":23302.88,"end":23304.88,"text":"原住民的民族正義"},{"start":23304.88,"end":23306.88,"text":"你如果有機會作為監察委員"},{"start":23306.88,"end":23310.88,"text":"你要如何處理蔡英文總統已經答應"},{"start":23310.88,"end":23312.88,"text":"而且跟原住民道歉"},{"start":23313.21,"end":23315.21,"text":"但是行政單位一直沒有送出"},{"start":23315.21,"end":23317.21,"text":"原住民的土地權法"},{"start":23317.21,"end":23319.21,"text":"自治法的問題"},{"start":23319.21,"end":23321.21,"text":"第二您在原轉會的時候"},{"start":23321.21,"end":23323.21,"text":"在2017年"},{"start":23323.19,"end":23325.19,"text":"還有馬耀等族人"},{"start":23325.19,"end":23327.19,"text":"在228公園"},{"start":23327.19,"end":23329.19,"text":"對於我們土地權的伸張"},{"start":23329.19,"end":23331.19,"text":"您這邊都沒有做出任何的回應"},{"start":23331.19,"end":23333.19,"text":"您對這個部分"},{"start":23345.97,"end":23347.97,"text":"謝謝您"},{"start":23347.69,"end":23350.69,"text":"我們一定會決定做計時"},{"start":23350.69,"end":23352.69,"text":"所以你覺得他們先前的"},{"start":23352.69,"end":23354.69,"text":"他們已經在那邊幾百天了"},{"start":23354.69,"end":23356.69,"text":"你覺得他們的事情會不會異形"},{"start":23356.89,"end":23359.89,"text":"一定有報告那個原民總統"},{"start":23359.89,"end":23361.89,"text":"一定有他的想法在裡面"},{"start":23361.89,"end":23364.89,"text":"所以是總統的想法比較重要"},{"start":23369.51,"end":23372.51,"text":"好 那個我們時間到了"},{"start":23373.32,"end":23375.32,"text":"是不是停"},{"start":23375.2,"end":23377.2,"text":"對提名人再順便答覆"},{"start":23378.89,"end":23379.89,"text":"好 謝謝林委員"},{"start":23379.89,"end":23382.89,"text":"下一位我們請許中信委員詢問"},{"start":23402.13,"end":23404.13,"text":"主席 各位同仁 我們邀請高牧師"},{"start":23406.09,"end":23408.09,"text":"我們請高貝提名人"},{"start":23408.9,"end":23409.9,"text":"請"},{"start":23412.69,"end":23413.69,"text":"高牧師好"},{"start":23415.46,"end":23417.46,"text":"我非常尊重高牧師"},{"start":23418.97,"end":23419.97,"text":"其實我"},{"start":23420.98,"end":23422.98,"text":"天底下最尊重"},{"start":23423.43,"end":23425.43,"text":"兩位高牧師"},{"start":23425.97,"end":23426.97,"text":"一位順民"},{"start":23427.69,"end":23430.69,"text":"另外一位是高俊明牧師"},{"start":23432.32,"end":23435.32,"text":"所以我今天對您的期許非常的高"},{"start":23436.67,"end":23438.67,"text":"我們高俊明牧師"},{"start":23439.96,"end":23442.96,"text":"在我們台灣民主的歷史上"},{"start":23443.83,"end":23445.83,"text":"地位非常的崇高"},{"start":23446.43,"end":23448.43,"text":"所以我稱呼您高牧師"},{"start":23449.56,"end":23451.56,"text":"是對您極度的"},{"start":23452.15,"end":23453.15,"text":"這個尊重"},{"start":23454.85,"end":23455.85,"text":"但是高牧師"},{"start":23457.33,"end":23458.33,"text":"在十幾年前"},{"start":23460.67,"end":23461.67,"text":"我在"},{"start":23462.9,"end":23463.9,"text":"成大教師"},{"start":23465.49,"end":23466.49,"text":"他成立一個"},{"start":23467.5,"end":23469.5,"text":"騰襲台灣促進會"},{"start":23471.03,"end":23472.03,"text":"這個會"},{"start":23473.51,"end":23475.51,"text":"是由我們台南地區所有的"},{"start":23477.37,"end":23478.37,"text":"最尊重"},{"start":23479.05,"end":23480.05,"text":"地方"},{"start":23480.38,"end":23481.38,"text":"得望的"},{"start":23482.29,"end":23484.29,"text":"這個社團負責人"},{"start":23485.34,"end":23487.34,"text":"地方意見領袖所組成"},{"start":23488.16,"end":23491.16,"text":"所以他在總理餐廳開了一個"},{"start":23491.72,"end":23492.72,"text":"演講會"},{"start":23493.57,"end":23495.57,"text":"專程邀請我"},{"start":23496.24,"end":23497.24,"text":"去做演講"},{"start":23498.72,"end":23500.72,"text":"那麼當時"},{"start":23501.22,"end":23502.22,"text":"去"},{"start":23502.28,"end":23503.28,"text":"車站接我的"},{"start":23504.31,"end":23506.31,"text":"是高牧師的一個助理"},{"start":23507.21,"end":23509.21,"text":"叫做邱麗麗"},{"start":23510.15,"end":23513.15,"text":"現在是我們台南市的議長"},{"start":23513.35,"end":23514.35,"text":"邱麗麗"},{"start":23515.66,"end":23516.66,"text":"我在演講的時候"},{"start":23517.94,"end":23518.94,"text":"剛好"},{"start":23519.11,"end":23521.11,"text":"我們賴清德立委"},{"start":23521.69,"end":23522.69,"text":"也來參與"},{"start":23523.22,"end":23524.22,"text":"所以我把麥克風"},{"start":23525.05,"end":23526.05,"text":"播10分鐘"},{"start":23526.72,"end":23528.72,"text":"讓賴立委"},{"start":23529.15,"end":23530.15,"text":"在我身邊"},{"start":23530.15,"end":23531.15,"text":"演講了10分鐘"},{"start":23533.03,"end":23535.03,"text":"那麼邱麗麗"},{"start":23535.85,"end":23537.85,"text":"在我們高牧師旁邊的"},{"start":23537.85,"end":23538.85,"text":"屁印"},{"start":23540.42,"end":23542.42,"text":"應該是要做對我們台灣"},{"start":23542.42,"end":23544.42,"text":"非常有利的行動"},{"start":23545.3,"end":23546.3,"text":"事情"},{"start":23547.25,"end":23548.25,"text":"結果"},{"start":23549.63,"end":23550.63,"text":"高麗麗"},{"start":23551.05,"end":23552.05,"text":"在台南"},{"start":23553.11,"end":23554.11,"text":"現在這個議長"},{"start":23556.1,"end":23558.1,"text":"還有兩個傳聞"},{"start":23559.27,"end":23561.27,"text":"一個我有明確證據"},{"start":23561.36,"end":23563.36,"text":"今天我來跟你請教"},{"start":23563.91,"end":23564.91,"text":"另外"},{"start":23564.91,"end":23565.91,"text":"很爽脫"},{"start":23567.07,"end":23568.07,"text":"是一個"},{"start":23568.07,"end":23569.07,"text":"運"},{"start":23569.77,"end":23572.77,"text":"這個家具的那個司機"},{"start":23573.33,"end":23574.33,"text":"跟我講的"},{"start":23574.83,"end":23575.83,"text":"我沒有證據"},{"start":23576.7,"end":23578.7,"text":"但是我給你分享"},{"start":23581.24,"end":23583.24,"text":"我們三立的創辦人林坤海"},{"start":23584.73,"end":23585.73,"text":"他的豪宅"},{"start":23585.73,"end":23586.73,"text":"訂了一批家具"},{"start":23587.79,"end":23588.79,"text":"由他運送"},{"start":23590.1,"end":23591.1,"text":"開門的"},{"start":23591.75,"end":23593.75,"text":"竟然是邱麗麗穿著睡衣"},{"start":23595.26,"end":23596.26,"text":"這個我只是傳聞"},{"start":23597.12,"end":23598.12,"text":"我沒有證據"},{"start":23599.31,"end":23601.31,"text":"但是我現在要請教"},{"start":23601.64,"end":23602.64,"text":"高牧師的"},{"start":23603.52,"end":23604.52,"text":"小弟弟"},{"start":23605.39,"end":23606.39,"text":"這一次"},{"start":23607.68,"end":23609.68,"text":"議長的選舉上"},{"start":23611.73,"end":23612.73,"text":"被檢察官"},{"start":23614.33,"end":23615.33,"text":"起訴會審"},{"start":23617.1,"end":23618.1,"text":"而一審二審"},{"start":23619.24,"end":23621.24,"text":"都判他無罪"},{"start":23622.57,"end":23623.57,"text":"一審"},{"start":23623.78,"end":23624.78,"text":"判他無罪"},{"start":23625.42,"end":23626.42,"text":"二審也判他無罪"},{"start":23628.41,"end":23629.41,"text":"但是這個法官"},{"start":23629.41,"end":23630.41,"text":"我從法學上去看"},{"start":23632.1,"end":23633.1,"text":"他的認識"},{"start":23634.01,"end":23635.01,"text":"用話"},{"start":23635.61,"end":23636.61,"text":"很現實"},{"start":23637.16,"end":23639.16,"text":"明顯違背法令"},{"start":23639.98,"end":23640.98,"text":"這個包庇"},{"start":23641.89,"end":23642.89,"text":"小弟弟來"},{"start":23643.8,"end":23644.8,"text":"因為"},{"start":23646.29,"end":23647.29,"text":"小弟弟"},{"start":23647.98,"end":23649.98,"text":"現在住在我們台南市的"},{"start":23649.98,"end":23650.98,"text":"北區的豪宅"},{"start":23651.68,"end":23652.68,"text":"同一棟豪宅"},{"start":23654.7,"end":23655.7,"text":"住著"},{"start":23655.7,"end":23657.7,"text":"學甲被開88槍的"},{"start":23658.41,"end":23659.41,"text":"郭再簽"},{"start":23660.01,"end":23662.01,"text":"兩個住在同一個豪宅"},{"start":23662.97,"end":23663.97,"text":"他們是好朋友"},{"start":23665.31,"end":23667.31,"text":"晚上有沒有串門子"},{"start":23667.31,"end":23668.31,"text":"我不知道"},{"start":23669.48,"end":23671.48,"text":"他們兩個關係非同小可"},{"start":23672.42,"end":23674.42,"text":"所以郭再簽在電話中"},{"start":23675.39,"end":23677.39,"text":"跟一位楊志強說"},{"start":23678,"end":23680,"text":"這兩天出來講一下"},{"start":23680.9,"end":23682.9,"text":"結果法官跟安政懷說只是"},{"start":23684.18,"end":23686.18,"text":"看看選情的場面化"},{"start":23687.27,"end":23689.27,"text":"其實郭再簽"},{"start":23689.27,"end":23691.27,"text":"邀楊志強出來談的事情"},{"start":23692.33,"end":23694.33,"text":"是跟第二點有關"},{"start":23694.67,"end":23696.67,"text":"也就是我們台南西港地區的"},{"start":23696.67,"end":23698.67,"text":"一位議員方一芳"},{"start":23699.5,"end":23700.5,"text":"方一芳"},{"start":23701.2,"end":23703.2,"text":"在偵查中已經承認了"},{"start":23704.71,"end":23707.71,"text":"這位楊志強說要給他錢"},{"start":23708.56,"end":23710.56,"text":"而且還透過各種機制"},{"start":23710.56,"end":23711.56,"text":"要確保一定會給"},{"start":23712.63,"end":23714.63,"text":"方一芳已經承認了"},{"start":23716.32,"end":23718.32,"text":"然後檢方呢"},{"start":23718.62,"end":23720.62,"text":"也監聽邱立立"},{"start":23721.15,"end":23722.15,"text":"而且呢"},{"start":23722.15,"end":23724.15,"text":"監聽到關鍵的對話"},{"start":23725.61,"end":23727.61,"text":"結果我們院方呢"},{"start":23727.97,"end":23731.97,"text":"竟然只以這個關鍵的錄音"},{"start":23733.35,"end":23735.35,"text":"沒有懲罰"},{"start":23735.22,"end":23737.22,"text":"沒有依法懲罰"},{"start":23737.13,"end":23739.13,"text":"就說這個關鍵錄音"},{"start":23739.7,"end":23741.7,"text":"所得的證據"},{"start":23741.87,"end":23743.87,"text":"是沒有證據能力"},{"start":23745.21,"end":23747.21,"text":"也就是獨樹的果子"},{"start":23748.07,"end":23749.07,"text":"沒有證據能力"},{"start":23749.67,"end":23751.67,"text":"就因為第三點"},{"start":23751.67,"end":23753.67,"text":"他認為證據上能力有瑕疵"},{"start":23754.51,"end":23756.51,"text":"但是他有證明力"},{"start":23756.93,"end":23758.93,"text":"他沒有證據能力"},{"start":23758.93,"end":23760.93,"text":"但是他有證明的能力"},{"start":23760.93,"end":23762.93,"text":"他沒有證明能力"},{"start":23762.93,"end":23764.93,"text":"但是他有證據力"},{"start":23765.26,"end":23767.26,"text":"他跟第一點跟第二點加起來"},{"start":23769.11,"end":23771.11,"text":"就可以"},{"start":23770.34,"end":23772.34,"text":"保持牌的名證"},{"start":23773.08,"end":23775.08,"text":"邱立立議長選舉會選"},{"start":23776.48,"end":23778.48,"text":"結果呢"},{"start":23777.77,"end":23779.77,"text":"有一股力量讓我們的一審法院"},{"start":23781.24,"end":23783.24,"text":"二審法院"},{"start":23782.86,"end":23784.86,"text":"認為"},{"start":23784.15,"end":23786.15,"text":"邱立立會選不成立"},{"start":23786.79,"end":23788.79,"text":"我們臺南人沒有一個人幸福"},{"start":23790.03,"end":23792.03,"text":"我們臺南人沒有一個人幸福"},{"start":23793.61,"end":23795.61,"text":"因為那個幾乎是"},{"start":23796.13,"end":23798.13,"text":"很多人都知道的事情"},{"start":23800.67,"end":23802.67,"text":"高牧師"},{"start":23802.03,"end":23804.03,"text":"民主國成為監察委員"},{"start":23804.99,"end":23806.99,"text":"願不願意替臺南人申這個冤"},{"start":23809.29,"end":23811.29,"text":"去彈劾這些法官"},{"start":23811.29,"end":23813.29,"text":"為什麼會做出這樣一個"},{"start":23814.72,"end":23816.72,"text":"違背"},{"start":23816.34,"end":23818.34,"text":"認識院法證據法則的判決"},{"start":23820.21,"end":23822.21,"text":"而讓我們臺南市的議長"},{"start":23823.57,"end":23825.57,"text":"輪入這樣一個寄生在"},{"start":23825.57,"end":23827.57,"text":"高牧師身邊的一個人"},{"start":23827.57,"end":23829.57,"text":"來揉令我們臺南市議會"},{"start":23829.57,"end":23831.57,"text":"來揉令我們臺南市議會"},{"start":23836.04,"end":23838.04,"text":"如果當監委的話"},{"start":23837.88,"end":23839.88,"text":"特別感謝委員"},{"start":23839.88,"end":23841.88,"text":"尤其是特別提到"},{"start":23841.88,"end":23843.88,"text":"我們懷念的高牧師"},{"start":23843.88,"end":23845.88,"text":"那高牧師過去"},{"start":23845.88,"end":23847.88,"text":"對原住民來講"},{"start":23847.88,"end":23849.88,"text":"是一個非常大的貢獻"},{"start":23849.88,"end":23851.88,"text":"那剛剛所提到"},{"start":23851.88,"end":23853.88,"text":"這樣的一個案件"},{"start":23853.88,"end":23855.88,"text":"那我深信如果到這個監察院的時候"},{"start":23855.88,"end":23857.88,"text":"一定再次發揮"},{"start":23857.88,"end":23859.88,"text":"那種調查的那種"},{"start":23859.88,"end":23861.88,"text":"工作"},{"start":23861.88,"end":23863.88,"text":"然後做出公義的一個判斷"},{"start":23863.88,"end":23865.88,"text":"因為畢竟監察院有一點就是"},{"start":23865.88,"end":23867.88,"text":"實行公義的一個地方"},{"start":23867.88,"end":23869.88,"text":"所以表示高牧師你是同意的"},{"start":23871.86,"end":23873.86,"text":"非常謝謝"},{"start":23874.33,"end":23876.33,"text":"那麼除了議長以外"},{"start":23877.09,"end":23879.09,"text":"我們來看看我們的臺南市長"},{"start":23880.18,"end":23882.18,"text":"也就是我們臺南市政心"},{"start":23882.18,"end":23884.18,"text":"在臺南議會以外臺南市長"},{"start":23884.86,"end":23886.86,"text":"黃偉哲"},{"start":23887.02,"end":23889.02,"text":"他在大學時代"},{"start":23889.68,"end":23891.68,"text":"根據您所承認"},{"start":23891.68,"end":23893.68,"text":"曾經擔任的轉型正義委員會"},{"start":23895.69,"end":23897.69,"text":"的學術研討會"},{"start":23897.8,"end":23899.8,"text":"所提出來的研討會"},{"start":23899.8,"end":23901.8,"text":"的補充資料一本這麼大本"},{"start":23903.38,"end":23905.38,"text":"我把它讀完以後"},{"start":23906.86,"end":23908.86,"text":"A143"},{"start":23909.98,"end":23911.98,"text":"龍推細學生"},{"start":23912.61,"end":23914.61,"text":"積極聯絡"},{"start":23914.76,"end":23916.76,"text":"去監視他的"},{"start":23916.73,"end":23918.73,"text":"社團同學"},{"start":23920.63,"end":23922.63,"text":"還說還被認為表現優良"},{"start":23924.02,"end":23926.02,"text":"我當時根據"},{"start":23926.27,"end":23928.27,"text":"這一份資料"},{"start":23927.8,"end":23929.8,"text":"因為我跟黃偉哲"},{"start":23930.01,"end":23932.01,"text":"我找他一年在臺大"},{"start":23932.32,"end":23936.32,"text":"所以那份資料裡面所寫的時間地點教室"},{"start":23936.7,"end":23938.7,"text":"我非常熟悉"},{"start":23938.7,"end":23940.7,"text":"所以我就一口咬定"},{"start":23940.51,"end":23942.51,"text":"A143就是黃偉哲市長"},{"start":23945.4,"end":23947.4,"text":"結果在後"},{"start":23947.11,"end":23949.11,"text":"前一陣子"},{"start":23949.01,"end":23951.01,"text":"又有一個中文的"},{"start":23951.19,"end":23953.19,"text":"啊"},{"start":23952.1,"end":23954.1,"text":"文獻在網路上流傳"},{"start":23954.6,"end":23956.6,"text":"就明白的寫了"},{"start":23957.42,"end":23959.42,"text":"黃偉哲就是這個龍推細的"},{"start":23961.23,"end":23963.23,"text":"部建學生調查局的部建學生"},{"start":23965.84,"end":23967.84,"text":"請問高牧師"},{"start":23968.07,"end":23970.07,"text":"以下學生"},{"start":23970.85,"end":23972.85,"text":"會在學生時代出賣他的同學"},{"start":23972.85,"end":23974.85,"text":"出賣他的好友"},{"start":23975.49,"end":23977.49,"text":"他會"},{"start":23976.59,"end":23978.59,"text":"對我們台南市政積極的認識"},{"start":23978.59,"end":23980.59,"text":"好好的去做嗎"},{"start":23983.42,"end":23985.42,"text":"會出賣自己朋友的人"},{"start":23986.07,"end":23988.07,"text":"會對我們這個國家盡忠嗎"},{"start":23989.82,"end":23991.82,"text":"見紙嗎"},{"start":23991.93,"end":23993.93,"text":"如果您"},{"start":23993.31,"end":23995.31,"text":"當時"},{"start":23995.31,"end":23997.31,"text":"有更明確的證據"},{"start":23997.26,"end":23999.26,"text":"我相信你應該會提出來"},{"start":23999.98,"end":24001.98,"text":"你應該會提出來"},{"start":24001.83,"end":24003.83,"text":"這就是我們台南市現在"},{"start":24004.57,"end":24006.57,"text":"為什麼被台中超越"},{"start":24007.3,"end":24009.3,"text":"為什麼現在被桃園超越的原因"},{"start":24011.38,"end":24013.38,"text":"所以這是在轉型正義委員會"},{"start":24014.78,"end":24016.78,"text":"所發生的資料"},{"start":24016.78,"end":24018.78,"text":"今天提出來"},{"start":24020.41,"end":24022.41,"text":"好 謝謝許爾元"},{"start":24022.41,"end":24024.41,"text":"接下來請審發會委員詢問"},{"start":24044.9,"end":24046.9,"text":"主席我們請被提名人"},{"start":24046.9,"end":24048.9,"text":"我們請高被提名人"},{"start":24063.11,"end":24065.11,"text":"你好"},{"start":24066.04,"end":24069.04,"text":"今天這一次的監察委員同意選"},{"start":24069.81,"end":24071.81,"text":"的這個公聽會"},{"start":24071.81,"end":24073.81,"text":"我個人認為說對於被提名人的專業結構"},{"start":24073.81,"end":24075.81,"text":"實際能力跟政治中立性"},{"start":24075.81,"end":24077.81,"text":"還有國家委員會的功能"},{"start":24077.81,"end":24079.81,"text":"這個"},{"start":24079.81,"end":24081.81,"text":"我認為都是應該要在這一次的"},{"start":24081.81,"end":24083.81,"text":"公聽會裡面大家"},{"start":24083.81,"end":24085.81,"text":"應該要探討的重點"},{"start":24085.81,"end":24087.81,"text":"這個在行使同意選的時候"},{"start":24087.81,"end":24089.81,"text":"應該要回歸到每一位被提名人的經歷"},{"start":24091.69,"end":24093.69,"text":"跟能力跟工作規劃是不是能夠"},{"start":24093.69,"end":24095.69,"text":"獨立行使職權"},{"start":24096.4,"end":24098.4,"text":"那這樣子像剛才這樣子"},{"start":24098.4,"end":24100.4,"text":"幾位委員在哪一些個案"},{"start":24100.4,"end":24102.4,"text":"要求表態"},{"start":24102.48,"end":24104.48,"text":"這個"},{"start":24103.94,"end":24105.94,"text":"我認為這個等同於是"},{"start":24105.94,"end":24107.94,"text":"利用公聽會來進行"},{"start":24107.94,"end":24109.94,"text":"個案施壓"},{"start":24109.94,"end":24111.94,"text":"個人認為非常不可取"},{"start":24111.94,"end":24113.94,"text":"而且這個也顯示出一個政黨的格調"},{"start":24113.83,"end":24115.83,"text":"我個人是認為說"},{"start":24115.83,"end":24117.83,"text":"尤其是我們這個俄勒姆斯"},{"start":24118.37,"end":24120.37,"text":"您過去這個我首先肯定"},{"start":24120.37,"end":24122.37,"text":"您過去數十年來在婦女兒少"},{"start":24122.37,"end":24124.37,"text":"家庭權益"},{"start":24124.37,"end":24126.37,"text":"還有人權保障跟社會服務"},{"start":24126.37,"end":24128.37,"text":"的長期投入"},{"start":24128.37,"end":24130.37,"text":"你長年從事這個"},{"start":24130.37,"end":24132.37,"text":"這個幕會跟社會的服務"},{"start":24132.37,"end":24134.37,"text":"我想你所累積下來的這些"},{"start":24134.37,"end":24136.37,"text":"經驗參與這個婦女"},{"start":24136.37,"end":24138.37,"text":"權益性別平等家庭暴力跟老人"},{"start":24138.37,"end":24140.37,"text":"福利的這些相關事物"},{"start":24140.37,"end":24142.37,"text":"投入的這些經驗跟你對"},{"start":24142.37,"end":24144.37,"text":"人民的這些瞭解我覺得這才是我們"},{"start":24144.37,"end":24146.37,"text":"認為今天要來了解"},{"start":24146.37,"end":24148.37,"text":"您在帶著過去這樣子的貢獻跟經驗"},{"start":24148.37,"end":24150.37,"text":"如果你有機會進入監察院"},{"start":24150.37,"end":24152.37,"text":"您會在這上面"},{"start":24152.37,"end":24154.37,"text":"怎麼樣以你過去的"},{"start":24154.37,"end":24156.37,"text":"第一線的經驗"},{"start":24156.37,"end":24158.37,"text":"來協助處理問題"},{"start":24158.37,"end":24160.37,"text":"來傾聽民眾的困難"},{"start":24160.37,"end":24162.37,"text":"這我覺得才是我們所關心的重點"},{"start":24166.65,"end":24168.65,"text":"那這個所以我今天大概"},{"start":24168.65,"end":24170.65,"text":"我就回到我個人比較重視的"},{"start":24170.65,"end":24172.65,"text":"這些問題上面"},{"start":24172.65,"end":24174.65,"text":"今天大概簡單幾個問題"},{"start":24174.65,"end":24176.65,"text":"來請教這個厄頓牧師"},{"start":24177.16,"end":24179.16,"text":"第一個就是我剛剛所提到的"},{"start":24179.16,"end":24181.16,"text":"你長期在這個教會"},{"start":24181.16,"end":24183.16,"text":"社區跟民間團體服務"},{"start":24183.16,"end":24185.16,"text":"我相信你接觸過不少民眾"},{"start":24186.63,"end":24188.63,"text":"有不少民眾他明明遇到困難"},{"start":24188.63,"end":24190.63,"text":"但他卻不知道向哪一個"},{"start":24190.63,"end":24192.63,"text":"政府單位"},{"start":24192.54,"end":24194.54,"text":"來這個尋求協助"},{"start":24194.54,"end":24196.54,"text":"那他也因為不熟悉"},{"start":24196.54,"end":24198.54,"text":"這個行政程序跟機關的分工"},{"start":24198.54,"end":24200.54,"text":"這個最後"},{"start":24200.54,"end":24202.54,"text":"很多民眾最後問題還是"},{"start":24202.54,"end":24204.54,"text":"沒有辦法解決"},{"start":24204.28,"end":24206.28,"text":"那你在自傳中特別提到你長期"},{"start":24206.28,"end":24208.28,"text":"幕會的經驗"},{"start":24208.28,"end":24210.28,"text":"讓你善於傾聽他人"},{"start":24210.96,"end":24212.96,"text":"這個善於傾聽他人的敘事"},{"start":24212.96,"end":24214.96,"text":"那再把民眾反應的事情"},{"start":24214.96,"end":24216.96,"text":"整理成具體的提案"},{"start":24216.96,"end":24218.96,"text":"那交由團隊進一步的調查"},{"start":24218.96,"end":24220.96,"text":"這是你在自傳中所提到的"},{"start":24220.96,"end":24222.96,"text":"那我個人認為說"},{"start":24222.96,"end":24224.96,"text":"這正是可以帶進監察院的重要的能力"},{"start":24226.39,"end":24228.39,"text":"那這個所以我在這裡"},{"start":24228.39,"end":24230.39,"text":"大概第一個問題"},{"start":24230.39,"end":24232.39,"text":"就要請教我們額外牧師"},{"start":24232.39,"end":24234.39,"text":"如果你有機會擔任監察委員"},{"start":24234.39,"end":24236.39,"text":"你是不是願意延續過去"},{"start":24236.39,"end":24238.39,"text":"這樣子傾聽陪伴民眾的工作方式"},{"start":24238.39,"end":24240.39,"text":"主動了解人民"},{"start":24240.39,"end":24242.39,"text":"所這個遇到的困難"},{"start":24242.39,"end":24244.39,"text":"那跟這個監察院的"},{"start":24244.39,"end":24246.39,"text":"這個專業調查團隊合作"},{"start":24246.39,"end":24248.39,"text":"把事情查清楚提出改善的建議"},{"start":24249.22,"end":24251.22,"text":"那特別再詢問一個問題"},{"start":24251.22,"end":24253.22,"text":"就是說你如果有機會進入"},{"start":24253.22,"end":24255.22,"text":"監察院你大概會"},{"start":24255.22,"end":24257.22,"text":"優先選擇參加什麼樣的委員會"},{"start":24257.22,"end":24259.22,"text":"哪一個委員會"},{"start":24259.22,"end":24261.22,"text":"那你考量是什麼"},{"start":24260.86,"end":24262.86,"text":"好謝謝委員的這個提問"},{"start":24262.86,"end":24264.86,"text":"那是的我長久在部落這個幕會"},{"start":24269.77,"end":24271.77,"text":"那"},{"start":24270.87,"end":24272.87,"text":"每次在我的環境裡面"},{"start":24272.87,"end":24274.87,"text":"因為這個黨老教會"},{"start":24274.87,"end":24276.87,"text":"有一個他們的一個神學"},{"start":24276.87,"end":24278.87,"text":"就是實況化"},{"start":24278.72,"end":24280.72,"text":"那我會特別這個注意"},{"start":24282.35,"end":24284.35,"text":"不公義的一個事情"},{"start":24284.25,"end":24286.25,"text":"就像當時候"},{"start":24286.25,"end":24288.25,"text":"政府的一個政策"},{"start":24288.25,"end":24290.25,"text":"就是宰測"},{"start":24290.13,"end":24292.13,"text":"邊緣學校"},{"start":24292.03,"end":24294.03,"text":"和彩合併的方式"},{"start":24294.28,"end":24296.28,"text":"那我的部落是一個其中其一"},{"start":24297.11,"end":24301.11,"text":"那我部落也是最小的一個部落在我們的鄉鎮"},{"start":24301.18,"end":24303.18,"text":"然後當踩車的時候"},{"start":24303.18,"end":24305.18,"text":"我們的公部門的"},{"start":24305.18,"end":24307.18,"text":"像這個"},{"start":24307.18,"end":24309.18,"text":"活動中心"},{"start":24309.18,"end":24311.18,"text":"還有這些很多的一個公共設施"},{"start":24311.18,"end":24313.18,"text":"也相對的被踩車"},{"start":24313.18,"end":24315.18,"text":"就像這個派出所"},{"start":24315.18,"end":24317.18,"text":"也一樣"},{"start":24317.18,"end":24319.18,"text":"那在那個時候我就"},{"start":24319.18,"end":24321.18,"text":"有一個思考"},{"start":24321.18,"end":24323.18,"text":"我身為這個部落的一個牧師"},{"start":24323.88,"end":24325.88,"text":"怎麼樣讓"},{"start":24325.33,"end":24327.33,"text":"再送"},{"start":24326.73,"end":24328.73,"text":"應該不對的一個政策"},{"start":24328.73,"end":24330.73,"text":"尤其是當他們要踩車這個學校的時候"},{"start":24330.73,"end":24332.73,"text":"沒有替代方案"},{"start":24332.73,"end":24334.73,"text":"然後很多的空間"},{"start":24334.73,"end":24336.73,"text":"變成是一個"},{"start":24336.73,"end":24338.73,"text":"這個草叢在那個地方"},{"start":24338.73,"end":24340.73,"text":"甚至變成一個石角"},{"start":24341.8,"end":24343.8,"text":"所以在那個時候我就"},{"start":24343.8,"end":24345.8,"text":"很多也部落的一個聲音"},{"start":24345.8,"end":24347.8,"text":"像這個派出所"},{"start":24347.8,"end":24349.8,"text":"這麼可惜"},{"start":24349.8,"end":24351.8,"text":"歡會這麼多年"},{"start":24351.8,"end":24353.8,"text":"每天就關門"},{"start":24353.8,"end":24355.8,"text":"那個時候就採取動作"},{"start":24355.8,"end":24357.8,"text":"不吃辛勞的"},{"start":24357.8,"end":24359.8,"text":"跑到這個縣長他們"},{"start":24359.8,"end":24361.8,"text":"跟他們做溝通"},{"start":24361.8,"end":24363.8,"text":"跟他們做了解"},{"start":24363.8,"end":24365.8,"text":"那起先他們都不願意"},{"start":24365.8,"end":24367.8,"text":"因為沒有這樣的一個立志"},{"start":24367.8,"end":24369.8,"text":"但是經過我們多次的往返"},{"start":24369.8,"end":24371.8,"text":"然後也有部落的"},{"start":24371.8,"end":24373.8,"text":"強烈的一個聲音"},{"start":24373.8,"end":24375.8,"text":"最後這一個派出所"},{"start":24375.8,"end":24377.8,"text":"被使用了"},{"start":24377.8,"end":24379.8,"text":"可以是第一個在這個"},{"start":24379.8,"end":24381.8,"text":"全國第一個"},{"start":24381.8,"end":24383.8,"text":"使用的派出所開門"},{"start":24383.8,"end":24385.8,"text":"也讓公部門跟我們一起合作"},{"start":24385.8,"end":24387.8,"text":"來做方案的時候"},{"start":24387.8,"end":24389.8,"text":"應該是那一個部落"},{"start":24389.8,"end":24391.8,"text":"那現在也是一樣"},{"start":24391.8,"end":24393.8,"text":"過去是我在第一線"},{"start":24393.8,"end":24395.8,"text":"那種觀察那種聆聽"},{"start":24395.8,"end":24397.8,"text":"怎麼樣也讓這個監察院"},{"start":24398.6,"end":24400.6,"text":"能夠伸出一個力量"},{"start":24400.6,"end":24402.6,"text":"也進入到部落"},{"start":24402.6,"end":24404.6,"text":"可能我的那個"},{"start":24404.6,"end":24406.6,"text":"比較專長的地方"},{"start":24406.6,"end":24408.6,"text":"那種整理過的"},{"start":24408.6,"end":24410.6,"text":"我看到的那種不公義"},{"start":24410.6,"end":24412.6,"text":"或者是很多像"},{"start":24412.6,"end":24414.6,"text":"這個人民的那種"},{"start":24414.6,"end":24416.6,"text":"請求陳情"},{"start":24416.6,"end":24418.6,"text":"那我怎麼樣把它"},{"start":24418.9,"end":24420.9,"text":"整理然後轉化"},{"start":24420.9,"end":24422.9,"text":"然後跟我們監察院的"},{"start":24422.9,"end":24424.9,"text":"像這些調查委員會"},{"start":24424.9,"end":24426.9,"text":"他們都是有深度的一個專長"},{"start":24426.9,"end":24428.9,"text":"然後得以"},{"start":24428.9,"end":24430.9,"text":"很多的不正義"},{"start":24430.9,"end":24432.9,"text":"現在還是有後尤其是"},{"start":24432.9,"end":24434.9,"text":"我們的居住正義"},{"start":24434.9,"end":24436.9,"text":"這個是可能是我會"},{"start":24436.9,"end":24438.9,"text":"非常有"},{"start":24438.9,"end":24440.9,"text":"這個有誠意的"},{"start":24440.9,"end":24442.9,"text":"非常忠心的"},{"start":24442.9,"end":24444.9,"text":"怎麼樣把監察院的"},{"start":24444.9,"end":24446.9,"text":"這個處長也能夠"},{"start":24446.9,"end":24448.9,"text":"到我們這個部落這個地方"},{"start":24448.9,"end":24450.9,"text":"謝謝二位同志"},{"start":24450.9,"end":24452.9,"text":"我想這個就是我們所期待的"},{"start":24452.9,"end":24454.9,"text":"將過去您在第一線的這些經驗"},{"start":24454.9,"end":24456.9,"text":"能夠帶到監察院"},{"start":24456.9,"end":24458.9,"text":"那這個"},{"start":24458.9,"end":24460.9,"text":"我們知道這一次你除了"},{"start":24460.9,"end":24462.9,"text":"被提名監察委員之外"},{"start":24462.9,"end":24464.9,"text":"您同時也是這個國家人權委員會的"},{"start":24466.37,"end":24468.37,"text":"委員的被提名人"},{"start":24468.37,"end":24470.37,"text":"所以我們就針對這個"},{"start":24470.37,"end":24472.37,"text":"國家人權委員會的這個"},{"start":24472.37,"end":24474.37,"text":"他的建議如何能夠真正的落實"},{"start":24474.37,"end":24476.37,"text":"這個問題來請教"},{"start":24476.37,"end":24478.37,"text":"這個俄羅斯"},{"start":24479.85,"end":24481.85,"text":"我想這個對於這個"},{"start":24483.5,"end":24485.5,"text":"這一次的公聽委裡面有意見指出"},{"start":24485.5,"end":24487.5,"text":"說國家人權委員會"},{"start":24487.5,"end":24489.5,"text":"他這個"},{"start":24490.28,"end":24492.28,"text":"可以受理陳情"},{"start":24492.28,"end":24494.28,"text":"可以進行訪視調查"},{"start":24494.28,"end":24496.28,"text":"跟提出專案報告"},{"start":24496.28,"end":24498.28,"text":"但是報告提出以後行政機關是不是真正的改善"},{"start":24498.28,"end":24500.28,"text":"卻沒有這個持續的追蹤"},{"start":24500.28,"end":24502.28,"text":"人民是有沒有辦法"},{"start":24502.28,"end":24504.28,"text":"實際感受到改變"},{"start":24504.28,"end":24506.28,"text":"這個部分也在公聽委裡面"},{"start":24506.28,"end":24508.28,"text":"有提出這樣的質疑"},{"start":24508.28,"end":24510.28,"text":"那我想這個在這邊簡單的"},{"start":24510.28,"end":24512.28,"text":"就請問俄羅斯"},{"start":24512.42,"end":24516.42,"text":"這個對於國家人權委員會所提出的這個專案報告跟改善建議"},{"start":24516.42,"end":24518.42,"text":"你是不是支持在現行的職權範圍內"},{"start":24518.42,"end":24520.42,"text":"逐項的列出"},{"start":24520.42,"end":24522.42,"text":"應改善的事項"},{"start":24522.42,"end":24524.42,"text":"阻責機關他的處理期限"},{"start":24524.42,"end":24526.42,"text":"跟他的檢驗標準"},{"start":24526.42,"end":24528.42,"text":"而且定期追蹤他的辦案"},{"start":24528.42,"end":24530.42,"text":"這個辦理的進度"},{"start":24530.42,"end":24532.42,"text":"那如果行政機關預期沒有完成"},{"start":24532.42,"end":24534.42,"text":"或者只是回覆公文沒有實際改善"},{"start":24534.42,"end":24536.42,"text":"我們是不是應該請機關進一步說明"},{"start":24536.42,"end":24538.42,"text":"適度公開後續的追蹤結果"},{"start":24538.42,"end":24540.42,"text":"我想針對我剛剛所提的這個問題"},{"start":24540.42,"end":24542.42,"text":"是不是能夠請我們"},{"start":24542.42,"end":24544.42,"text":"俄羅斯能夠簡單說明一下"},{"start":24544.42,"end":24546.42,"text":"如果你進入國家人權委員會"},{"start":24546.42,"end":24548.42,"text":"你對於這樣的事情的態度"},{"start":24547.92,"end":24551.92,"text":"像我們國家人權委員會的這個的建議"},{"start":24551.92,"end":24553.92,"text":"常常被批評為"},{"start":24553.92,"end":24555.92,"text":"輪尾這個文字報告"},{"start":24555.92,"end":24557.92,"text":"文字報告"},{"start":24557.92,"end":24559.92,"text":"那關鍵在缺乏這個強制力"},{"start":24559.92,"end":24561.92,"text":"後續的一個追蹤"},{"start":24561.92,"end":24563.92,"text":"所以機關往往"},{"start":24563.92,"end":24565.92,"text":"消極應付"},{"start":24565.92,"end":24567.92,"text":"適應了事"},{"start":24567.92,"end":24569.92,"text":"那本人認為有幾個建議"},{"start":24569.92,"end":24571.92,"text":"首先就是"},{"start":24571.92,"end":24573.92,"text":"重要報告"},{"start":24573.92,"end":24575.92,"text":"是不是著向列出"},{"start":24575.92,"end":24577.92,"text":"改善的事項"},{"start":24577.92,"end":24581.92,"text":"主責機關還有辦理期限及檢驗標準"},{"start":24581.92,"end":24585.92,"text":"並明僅是以判萬機關檢討改善"},{"start":24585.92,"end":24587.92,"text":"等空泛的這個文字結案"},{"start":24587.92,"end":24589.92,"text":"唯有明確的"},{"start":24589.92,"end":24591.92,"text":"對應到具體的事項"},{"start":24591.92,"end":24593.92,"text":"負責任還有完成的時程"},{"start":24593.92,"end":24595.92,"text":"還有可以供"},{"start":24595.92,"end":24597.92,"text":"檢驗的成效及標"},{"start":24597.92,"end":24599.92,"text":"我一切才能清楚比對"},{"start":24599.92,"end":24601.92,"text":"機關是否"},{"start":24601.92,"end":24603.92,"text":"真正真實"},{"start":24603.92,"end":24605.92,"text":"而非任由機關"},{"start":24605.92,"end":24607.92,"text":"自稱已改善"},{"start":24607.92,"end":24609.92,"text":"就結案了"},{"start":24609.92,"end":24611.92,"text":"所以我覺得還有另外一個建議"},{"start":24611.92,"end":24613.92,"text":"就是人權會應該"},{"start":24613.92,"end":24615.92,"text":"建立定期的一個追蹤"},{"start":24615.92,"end":24617.92,"text":"的一個複雜機制"},{"start":24617.92,"end":24619.92,"text":"持續要求機制"},{"start":24619.92,"end":24621.92,"text":"回報"},{"start":24621.92,"end":24623.92,"text":"並實際的查證進度"},{"start":24623.92,"end":24625.92,"text":"而非憑書面恢復"},{"start":24625.92,"end":24627.92,"text":"就結案了"},{"start":24627.92,"end":24629.92,"text":"那如果機關"},{"start":24629.92,"end":24631.92,"text":"一起未完成"},{"start":24631.92,"end":24633.92,"text":"應該要求具體說明"},{"start":24633.92,"end":24635.92,"text":"嚴重的原因及"},{"start":24635.92,"end":24637.92,"text":"新的議定的時程"},{"start":24637.92,"end":24639.92,"text":"然後列為"},{"start":24639.92,"end":24641.92,"text":"時間的關係"},{"start":24641.92,"end":24643.92,"text":"事實上我是非常期待"},{"start":24643.92,"end":24645.92,"text":"我們惡人牧師能夠"},{"start":24645.92,"end":24647.92,"text":"我也希望說我們立法院"},{"start":24647.92,"end":24649.92,"text":"大家能夠拋棄這個黨派的"},{"start":24649.92,"end":24651.92,"text":"這些立場跟成見"},{"start":24651.92,"end":24653.92,"text":"我們真正的讓惡人牧師有機會"},{"start":24653.92,"end":24655.92,"text":"帶著您過去的這個"},{"start":24655.92,"end":24657.92,"text":"牧者的傾聽跟社工的專業"},{"start":24657.92,"end":24659.92,"text":"來進入長期為民眾服務的"},{"start":24659.92,"end":24661.92,"text":"經驗來進入監察院"},{"start":24661.92,"end":24663.92,"text":"在這裡祝福你"},{"start":24664.48,"end":24666.48,"text":"謝謝省委員"},{"start":24666.17,"end":24668.17,"text":"下一位請盧縣議委員詢問"},{"start":24686.23,"end":24688.23,"text":"有請高牧師"},{"start":24688.23,"end":24690.23,"text":"我們請高被提名人被選"},{"start":24698.75,"end":24700.75,"text":"牧師好"},{"start":24700.75,"end":24702.75,"text":"很高興能夠在這個場合跟你碰面"},{"start":24703.65,"end":24705.65,"text":"代表我們是屏東的官榮"},{"start":24706.89,"end":24708.89,"text":"那也是我們排灣族的驕傲"},{"start":24708.89,"end":24712.89,"text":"長期投入原住民族婦女兒少家庭及人權工作"},{"start":24712.89,"end":24714.89,"text":"這次本來就是依監察院"},{"start":24714.89,"end":24716.89,"text":"組織法第三條規定"},{"start":24716.89,"end":24718.89,"text":"因為人權研究貢獻"},{"start":24718.89,"end":24720.89,"text":"跟公民團體事務經驗的資格被提名"},{"start":24722.51,"end":24724.51,"text":"那我想說"},{"start":24724,"end":24727,"text":"今天你從最熟悉的原住民族人權開始"},{"start":24727,"end":24730,"text":"要請你說明一下你能不能把人權的代表性"},{"start":24730,"end":24732,"text":"真正轉換成監察的專業"},{"start":24736.18,"end":24740.18,"text":"謝謝這個委員的提議"},{"start":24740.18,"end":24743.18,"text":"進入到這個監察委員"},{"start":24743.18,"end":24747.18,"text":"他是一個國家的最高的器官"},{"start":24747.18,"end":24751.18,"text":"那當然這集本身"},{"start":24751.18,"end":24753.18,"text":"一個非常重要的一個責任"},{"start":24753.18,"end":24757.18,"text":"就是捍衛這個監察委員的制度"},{"start":24758.41,"end":24761.41,"text":"那我想說從一個監察委員的核心素養"},{"start":24761.41,"end":24764.41,"text":"有獨立性、有人權敏感度"},{"start":24764.41,"end":24768.41,"text":"有證據、調查能力、法律、行政能力"},{"start":24768.41,"end":24771.41,"text":"制度改善能力跟弱勢的可靜性"},{"start":24771.41,"end":24773.41,"text":"你認為這幾個能力裡面"},{"start":24773.41,"end":24775.41,"text":"你覺得你最要補強的是哪方面"},{"start":24777.68,"end":24778.18,"text":"呃"},{"start":24778.81,"end":24782.81,"text":"那當然很多剛剛委員所提的都非常重要的"},{"start":24783.5,"end":24786.5,"text":"但是現在比較讓我一直痛心的"},{"start":24786.5,"end":24789.5,"text":"就是我們居住的一個環境"},{"start":24789.5,"end":24792.5,"text":"尤其是遷徙的這個原住民"},{"start":24792.5,"end":24793.5,"text":"我們都是屏東人"},{"start":24793.5,"end":24794.5,"text":"也是嘉義人"},{"start":24794.5,"end":24797.5,"text":"第一個就是像排灣這個地方"},{"start":24797.5,"end":24802.5,"text":"已經可以有那個活動空間了"},{"start":24802.5,"end":24804.5,"text":"那像現在我們看到這個"},{"start":24804.5,"end":24807.5,"text":"達瓦達望山的山體門鄉"},{"start":24807.5,"end":24809.5,"text":"他們也是被遷徙下來的"},{"start":24809.5,"end":24812.5,"text":"但是我非常納悶的地方就是"},{"start":24812.5,"end":24814.5,"text":"當他們在遷徙的時候"},{"start":24814.5,"end":24817.5,"text":"為什麼沒有非常好的一個策略"},{"start":24817.5,"end":24821.5,"text":"讓他們的那個居住地能夠容納這區居民"},{"start":24821.5,"end":24822.5,"text":"還有他們的活動"},{"start":24822.5,"end":24824.5,"text":"現在達瓦達望那個地方"},{"start":24824.5,"end":24825.5,"text":"根本就沒有用動場"},{"start":24825.5,"end":24828.5,"text":"當然是我很感謝我們的政府"},{"start":24828.5,"end":24831.5,"text":"好像幾乎每一個部落都有文件站"},{"start":24831.5,"end":24835.5,"text":"但是我們最大的這個支援就是空氣"},{"start":24835.5,"end":24837.5,"text":"所以應該有強勁的身體"},{"start":24837.5,"end":24839.5,"text":"就是在這個"},{"start":24839.5,"end":24841.5,"text":"這個跟大自然在一起"},{"start":24841.5,"end":24844.5,"text":"那我們也是常常去瓦劉路嘛"},{"start":24844.5,"end":24847.5,"text":"其實你看到瓦劉路可能心裡也會痛"},{"start":24847.5,"end":24849.5,"text":"他們每次風年祭的時候"},{"start":24849.5,"end":24852.5,"text":"那個超長是那種石頭"},{"start":24852.5,"end":24855.5,"text":"我還深怕他們的這個腳背刺痛"},{"start":24855.5,"end":24857.5,"text":"這個是我在那邊誤會"},{"start":24857.5,"end":24858.5,"text":"還有另外一個"},{"start":24858.5,"end":24864.5,"text":"我也很納悶就是這個警察廢棄的一個警察派出所"},{"start":24864.5,"end":24865.5,"text":"這個是對一個部落"},{"start":24865.5,"end":24867.5,"text":"是一個由愛觀展的一個地方"},{"start":24867.5,"end":24868.5,"text":"那是門面"},{"start":24869.5,"end":24872.5,"text":"但是都沒有做改變也不拆掉"},{"start":24872.5,"end":24874.5,"text":"然後可以另外立一個"},{"start":24874.5,"end":24877.5,"text":"讓我們族人有一個活動的一個地方"},{"start":24877.5,"end":24882.5,"text":"那現在我比較比較在意的就是我們的區住整理"},{"start":24882.5,"end":24883.5,"text":"尤其是被牽扯的地方"},{"start":24883.5,"end":24885.5,"text":"如果我們一個一個盤點"},{"start":24885.5,"end":24888.5,"text":"可能我們會看到那個狀況"},{"start":24888.5,"end":24891.5,"text":"所以當我進入到這個監察委員會的時候"},{"start":24891.5,"end":24895.5,"text":"他這個可能也是一個我非常重要的一個"},{"start":24895.5,"end":24896.5,"text":"我覺得急不公義"},{"start":24896.5,"end":24899.5,"text":"急不公義對一個尤其是小部落"},{"start":24899.5,"end":24902.5,"text":"沒有一個正常的一個活動空間"},{"start":24902.5,"end":24905.5,"text":"因為我們原住民的地方"},{"start":24905.5,"end":24907.5,"text":"所有的那個丘陵地台是我們"},{"start":24907.5,"end":24911.5,"text":"我們常常唯一的那個活動的那個超長就是學校"},{"start":24911.5,"end":24913.5,"text":"所以一旦被方會的時候"},{"start":24913.5,"end":24915.5,"text":"幾乎我們沒有地方活動了"},{"start":24915.5,"end":24917.5,"text":"好陳牧師的研談當中"},{"start":24917.5,"end":24918.5,"text":"我大概知道說"},{"start":24918.5,"end":24920.5,"text":"從那個能力裡面"},{"start":24920.5,"end":24923.5,"text":"你大概知道說制度改善的能力很重要"},{"start":24923.5,"end":24925.5,"text":"可能是現在你迫缺是要知道的"},{"start":24925.5,"end":24927.5,"text":"所以我覺得你如果當監察委員的話"},{"start":24927.5,"end":24930.5,"text":"我覺得你應該要主動提出調查"},{"start":24930.5,"end":24932.5,"text":"這就是你最重要的能力"},{"start":24932.5,"end":24934.5,"text":"也是未來你要做的方向"},{"start":24934.5,"end":24936.5,"text":"第三個就是我說"},{"start":24936.5,"end":24940.5,"text":"我看到你有看到你之前在原轉會"},{"start":24940.5,"end":24943.5,"text":"那我知道說原轉會之前有推公法人"},{"start":24943.5,"end":24945.5,"text":"有推傳統領域"},{"start":24945.5,"end":24950.5,"text":"不過也就你當傳統轉型正義委員這個角色"},{"start":24950.5,"end":24952.5,"text":"你覺得原民會這方面有做到"},{"start":24952.5,"end":24956.5,"text":"有做到應該做到的一個行政的一個能力嗎"},{"start":24957.3,"end":24958.3,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":24958.3,"end":24962.3,"text":"那在原轉會的幾年"},{"start":24962.3,"end":24966.3,"text":"讓我更深知我們族人在碰到的問題"},{"start":24966.3,"end":24969.3,"text":"尤其是土地的這個問題"},{"start":24969.3,"end":24971.3,"text":"到現在一直還沒有被解決"},{"start":24971.3,"end":24972.3,"text":"那也是一樣"},{"start":24972.3,"end":24976.3,"text":"可能就是經過我們用那個調查的一個專業"},{"start":24976.3,"end":24978.3,"text":"它的真寫在哪裡"},{"start":24978.3,"end":24980.3,"text":"它一直沒有辦法進一步"},{"start":24980.3,"end":24982.3,"text":"一定有它的因素在裡面"},{"start":24982.3,"end":24984.3,"text":"但是我們不應當就這樣退縮"},{"start":24984.3,"end":24989.3,"text":"我們藉助這個監察院的一個調查的一個專業"},{"start":24989.3,"end":24991.3,"text":"他們對憲法的一個認知"},{"start":24991.3,"end":24994.3,"text":"那在這個地方我們也可以一起努力"},{"start":24994.3,"end":24998.3,"text":"來解決我們多年來的這樣的一個問題"},{"start":24998.3,"end":25000.3,"text":"像我知道傳統領域的公告"},{"start":25000.3,"end":25004.3,"text":"希望能夠做各個族群的一個傳統領域"},{"start":25004.3,"end":25007.3,"text":"不過從九十一到現在公告了兩個"},{"start":25007.3,"end":25009.3,"text":"還被撤銷了一個"},{"start":25009.3,"end":25011.3,"text":"所以我覺得原民會這方面的失職"},{"start":25011.3,"end":25014.3,"text":"我覺得從當監察委那天開始"},{"start":25014.3,"end":25016.3,"text":"我覺得你就應該要去看"},{"start":25016.3,"end":25018.3,"text":"到底行政部門的缺失在哪裡"},{"start":25019.67,"end":25021.67,"text":"至於公法人的部分是明明就"},{"start":25022.23,"end":25024.23,"text":"蔡英文總統就想說要推工法人"},{"start":25024.23,"end":25027.23,"text":"可是到現在原民會還是在事辦的階段"},{"start":25027.23,"end":25032.23,"text":"你也要去調查為什麼行政單位的一個落差"},{"start":25032.23,"end":25035.23,"text":"跟失誤在哪裡可以嗎"},{"start":25035.23,"end":25037.23,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":25037.23,"end":25040.23,"text":"我就承諾剛剛的一個回應"},{"start":25040.23,"end":25044.23,"text":"一直沒有辦法前進停滯在那個地方"},{"start":25044.23,"end":25046.23,"text":"我們可以一起努力"},{"start":25047.23,"end":25050.23,"text":"接觸這個原轉會的一個專業"},{"start":25050.23,"end":25054.23,"text":"去做努力去調查去認識"},{"start":25054.23,"end":25057.23,"text":"這個是一個我們非常重要"},{"start":25057.23,"end":25059.23,"text":"要繼續的一個工作"},{"start":25059.23,"end":25062.23,"text":"尤其是我們都會一起合作"},{"start":25062.23,"end":25065.23,"text":"為了族人為了不公義的事情"},{"start":25065.23,"end":25067.23,"text":"我知道還有很多事情"},{"start":25067.23,"end":25071.23,"text":"不公義存在我們這個族人這個地方"},{"start":25071.23,"end":25075.23,"text":"但是我深信只要我們有心不去也"},{"start":25075.23,"end":25078.23,"text":"因為我的經驗我也經驗過在部落的時候"},{"start":25078.23,"end":25080.23,"text":"人家跟我講說不可能"},{"start":25080.23,"end":25082.23,"text":"就像初期的文化成長班"},{"start":25082.23,"end":25084.23,"text":"為了婦女的權益"},{"start":25084.23,"end":25086.23,"text":"已經沒有學校了"},{"start":25086.23,"end":25088.23,"text":"那我們就寫一個方案"},{"start":25088.23,"end":25091.23,"text":"徵詢那個文化成長班"},{"start":25091.23,"end":25093.23,"text":"人家跟我講說不可能因為"},{"start":25093.23,"end":25095.23,"text":"那個時候衣衫只有一個"},{"start":25095.23,"end":25097.23,"text":"那我說不行我們就試試看"},{"start":25097.23,"end":25099.23,"text":"剛好蔡偶像也在徵詢"},{"start":25099.23,"end":25101.23,"text":"因為他們沒有文化成長班"},{"start":25101.23,"end":25104.23,"text":"但是她是即便她是我的同工"},{"start":25104.23,"end":25107.23,"text":"所以我跟她講說我們公平競爭"},{"start":25107.23,"end":25110.23,"text":"然後這個人民會才來聽我們的簡報"},{"start":25110.23,"end":25116.23,"text":"最後就在排灣村這個地方"},{"start":25116.23,"end":25119.23,"text":"還有派出所我們是第一個"},{"start":25119.23,"end":25121.23,"text":"希望高牧師你用以前你的堅持"},{"start":25121.23,"end":25123.23,"text":"跟你的努力跟你的專業"},{"start":25123.23,"end":25125.23,"text":"我想有一個案子就是跟你分享一下"},{"start":25125.23,"end":25131.23,"text":"監察院就台電大甲系官民抽蓄水力發電計畫"},{"start":25131.23,"end":25133.23,"text":"提出糾正"},{"start":25133.23,"end":25135.23,"text":"但是其中有一個重要的爭議點"},{"start":25135.23,"end":25137.23,"text":"就是我們和平區的哈倫台"},{"start":25137.23,"end":25139.23,"text":"嘉洋跟黎山部落的傳統領域"},{"start":25139.23,"end":25141.23,"text":"和平區竟然認定"},{"start":25141.23,"end":25143.23,"text":"它並不是所謂的關係部落"},{"start":25143.23,"end":25146.23,"text":"以至於沒有辦法對這些部落"},{"start":25146.23,"end":25150.23,"text":"所謂的一個做諮商統一的程序"},{"start":25150.23,"end":25152.23,"text":"我覺得這個部分有很大的缺失"},{"start":25152.23,"end":25155.23,"text":"以後如果到宜蘭像地熱的"},{"start":25155.23,"end":25157.23,"text":"比如說花蓮有些地熱的議題"},{"start":25157.23,"end":25159.23,"text":"你可能也會接觸到"},{"start":25159.23,"end":25161.23,"text":"這些關係部落的一個"},{"start":25161.23,"end":25163.23,"text":"以後的諮商統一權"},{"start":25163.23,"end":25165.23,"text":"我覺得這個部分是你應該要"},{"start":25165.23,"end":25167.23,"text":"真正的去著墨的"},{"start":25167.23,"end":25169.23,"text":"尤其是現在我們反山西的風電"},{"start":25169.23,"end":25171.23,"text":"還有我們那個"},{"start":25172.16,"end":25174.16,"text":"風港地區的西瓜種植案"},{"start":25174.16,"end":25176.16,"text":"其實目前都停滯在一個"},{"start":25176.16,"end":25178.16,"text":"跨部會的協調當中"},{"start":25178.16,"end":25182.16,"text":"甚至是無解"},{"start":25182.16,"end":25184.16,"text":"那我想說就你當檢察委員"},{"start":25184.16,"end":25187.16,"text":"我覺得這個比較困難的執行的案件"},{"start":25187.16,"end":25189.16,"text":"或者說也需要跨部會"},{"start":25189.16,"end":25191.16,"text":"要來執行的這些"},{"start":25191.16,"end":25193.16,"text":"我們部落發展的事情"},{"start":25193.16,"end":25196.16,"text":"我覺得你要以檢察委員的身份"},{"start":25196.16,"end":25198.16,"text":"去主動來跨部會來調查"},{"start":25198.16,"end":25200.16,"text":"到底行政程序的"},{"start":25200.16,"end":25202.16,"text":"在南行的地方在哪裡"},{"start":25202.16,"end":25204.16,"text":"把問題點找出來可以嗎"},{"start":25204.16,"end":25206.16,"text":"可以"},{"start":25206.22,"end":25210.22,"text":"我會去記委員的建議"},{"start":25210.22,"end":25212.22,"text":"然後當然"},{"start":25212.22,"end":25214.22,"text":"如果有機會到監察院請示委員"},{"start":25214.22,"end":25216.22,"text":"一定是常常有的"},{"start":25217.22,"end":25219.22,"text":"我想問你"},{"start":25219.22,"end":25221.22,"text":"你心裡面有沒有一個答案就是說"},{"start":25221.22,"end":25225.22,"text":"如果你真的做滿六年的任期"},{"start":25225.22,"end":25229.22,"text":"你希望推進三項具體的制度的話"},{"start":25229.22,"end":25231.22,"text":"你希望能夠有哪三項"},{"start":25231.22,"end":25233.22,"text":"你最在意的是哪三項"},{"start":25235.29,"end":25237.29,"text":"呃"},{"start":25236.32,"end":25240.32,"text":"如果有機會當這個監察委員的委員"},{"start":25240.32,"end":25243.32,"text":"第一個就是怎麼樣"},{"start":25243.32,"end":25245.32,"text":"我剛剛就不斷的在講"},{"start":25245.32,"end":25247.32,"text":"就是主任的聲音"},{"start":25248.42,"end":25252.42,"text":"能夠經過我們的轉換成為一個議案"},{"start":25252.42,"end":25254.42,"text":"讓監察院聽到"},{"start":25254.42,"end":25258.42,"text":"能夠讓主任也看到一個監察院"},{"start":25258.42,"end":25260.42,"text":"有溫度的聽到部落"},{"start":25260.42,"end":25262.42,"text":"來服務我們主任"},{"start":25262.42,"end":25264.42,"text":"這個是第一個"},{"start":25264.42,"end":25266.42,"text":"第二個剛剛所想到的土地"},{"start":25266.42,"end":25268.42,"text":"一直是我們的問題"},{"start":25268.42,"end":25270.42,"text":"也會在這個地方琢磨"},{"start":25270.42,"end":25272.42,"text":"然後剛剛講過"},{"start":25272.42,"end":25274.42,"text":"會不斷的請示委員"},{"start":25274.42,"end":25276.42,"text":"因為你們比我們更清楚"},{"start":25276.42,"end":25278.42,"text":"所以我會不斷的做請示"},{"start":25278.42,"end":25282.42,"text":"那希望我們為主任有很好的合作"},{"start":25283.73,"end":25285.73,"text":"那我希望最後就是"},{"start":25285.73,"end":25287.73,"text":"甚至你面對提名你的政府"},{"start":25287.73,"end":25289.73,"text":"你都能夠獨立的查清事實"},{"start":25289.73,"end":25291.73,"text":"來判斷責任"},{"start":25291.73,"end":25293.73,"text":"這才是我們原住民的福祉"},{"start":25295.17,"end":25297.17,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":25299.05,"end":25300.05,"text":"謝謝 委員"},{"start":25301.02,"end":25302.02,"text":"謝謝被提名的"},{"start":25302.76,"end":25304.76,"text":"報告全院委員會"},{"start":25304.76,"end":25306.76,"text":"對監察委員被提名人高天惠"},{"start":25306.76,"end":25308.76,"text":"詢答部分到此為止"},{"start":25308.76,"end":25310.76,"text":"謝謝高被提名人"},{"start":25310.76,"end":25311.76,"text":"列席答詢"},{"start":25311.76,"end":25312.76,"text":"報告全院委員會"},{"start":25312.76,"end":25314.76,"text":"休息五分鐘休息之後"},{"start":25314.76,"end":25316.76,"text":"進行對監察委員被提名人"},{"start":25316.76,"end":25318.76,"text":"張菊芳質詢問"},{"start":25318.76,"end":25320.76,"text":"現在休息"},{"start":25635.52,"end":25637.52,"text":"報告全院委員會"},{"start":25637.52,"end":25639.52,"text":"現在繼續開會"},{"start":25639.52,"end":25641.52,"text":"監察委員被提名人張菊芳"},{"start":25641.52,"end":25643.52,"text":"之資格相關事項"},{"start":25643.52,"end":25645.52,"text":"請被提名人張菊芳女士說明"},{"start":25645.52,"end":25647.52,"text":"時間為五分鐘"},{"start":25655.8,"end":25657.8,"text":"休息"},{"start":25657.89,"end":25659.89,"text":"各位委員 各位女士 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謝謝主席"},{"start":26010.2,"end":26012.2,"text":"請貝提米人"},{"start":26012.2,"end":26014.2,"text":"請張貝提米人"},{"start":26021.57,"end":26023.57,"text":"貝提米人好"},{"start":26023.57,"end":26025.57,"text":"我有看你的自傳"},{"start":26025.57,"end":26027.57,"text":"還有你對於立法院"},{"start":26027.57,"end":26029.57,"text":"我們審查的報告"},{"start":26029.57,"end":26031.57,"text":"那您有特別強調"},{"start":26031.57,"end":26033.57,"text":"您有參加"},{"start":26033.57,"end":26035.57,"text":"我們國家人權委員會的"},{"start":26035.57,"end":26037.57,"text":"首年委員"},{"start":26037.57,"end":26039.57,"text":"所以案例您非常重視人權"},{"start":26039.57,"end":26041.57,"text":"但是我們"},{"start":26041.57,"end":26043.57,"text":"最近社會有幾件"},{"start":26043.57,"end":26045.57,"text":"這個"},{"start":26045.57,"end":26047.57,"text":"攸關於一些人權問題"},{"start":26047.57,"end":26049.57,"text":"當然它也有高度的政治性"},{"start":26049.57,"end":26051.57,"text":"我想請教您的意見"},{"start":26052.28,"end":26054.28,"text":"比如說今年九合一選舉又到了"},{"start":26055.62,"end":26057.62,"text":"但是我們回顧過去"},{"start":26057.62,"end":26059.62,"text":"幾個重大的選舉"},{"start":26060.8,"end":26062.8,"text":"都發生了"},{"start":26062.8,"end":26064.8,"text":"以所謂的反滲透法"},{"start":26064.8,"end":26066.8,"text":"或者國安法"},{"start":26066.8,"end":26068.8,"text":"在選前大級的"},{"start":26068.8,"end":26070.8,"text":"搜索或者是"},{"start":26070.8,"end":26072.8,"text":"羈押"},{"start":26072.8,"end":26074.8,"text":"這裡面其實比較"},{"start":26074.8,"end":26076.8,"text":"我們為人所熟知的"},{"start":26076.8,"end":26078.8,"text":"包含在2022"},{"start":26078.8,"end":26080.8,"text":"24年的時候"},{"start":26080.8,"end":26082.8,"text":"2024年像我們"},{"start":26082.8,"end":26084.8,"text":"立委選舉我們台北市"},{"start":26084.8,"end":26086.8,"text":"幾乎很多的"},{"start":26086.8,"end":26088.8,"text":"里長通通被"},{"start":26088.8,"end":26090.8,"text":"約談甚至"},{"start":26090.8,"end":26092.8,"text":"沒收手機"},{"start":26092.12,"end":26096.12,"text":"另外在2024年選舉的時候"},{"start":26096.12,"end":26098.12,"text":"在選前的幾天"},{"start":26098.12,"end":26100.12,"text":"一個禮拜"},{"start":26100.64,"end":26102.64,"text":"有我們基隆的里長"},{"start":26102.64,"end":26104.64,"text":"因為率團到大陸"},{"start":26104.64,"end":26106.64,"text":"去旅遊"},{"start":26107.16,"end":26109.16,"text":"他被羈押"},{"start":26109.16,"end":26111.16,"text":"而且被兩度羈押"},{"start":26111.16,"end":26113.16,"text":"一直羈押到選前幾天才把它放出來"},{"start":26113.16,"end":26115.16,"text":"但是事後"},{"start":26115.16,"end":26117.16,"text":"他都是無罪確定"},{"start":26117.16,"end":26119.16,"text":"而且他也因此"},{"start":26119.16,"end":26121.16,"text":"他可以得到這個刑事"},{"start":26121.16,"end":26123.16,"text":"補償大概九萬多塊"},{"start":26124.22,"end":26126.22,"text":"那另外呢"},{"start":26125.69,"end":26127.69,"text":"在同樣的2024年的大選的時候"},{"start":26127.69,"end":26129.69,"text":"他不是里長"},{"start":26129.69,"end":26131.69,"text":"是一個協會"},{"start":26131.69,"end":26133.69,"text":"他也是到"},{"start":26133.84,"end":26135.84,"text":"中國大陸去旅遊"},{"start":26135.84,"end":26137.84,"text":"然後呢"},{"start":26137.84,"end":26139.84,"text":"背叛"},{"start":26139.84,"end":26141.84,"text":"用反滲透法意圖影響選舉"},{"start":26141.84,"end":26143.84,"text":"但是包含一省"},{"start":26143.84,"end":26145.84,"text":"二省通通被判"},{"start":26145.84,"end":26147.84,"text":"無罪"},{"start":26147.37,"end":26149.37,"text":"所以我相信在"},{"start":26149.37,"end":26151.37,"text":"今年選舉或明年選舉"},{"start":26151.37,"end":26153.37,"text":"非常有可能"},{"start":26153.37,"end":26155.37,"text":"這樣的一個"},{"start":26155.37,"end":26157.37,"text":"就是嚴重侵害人權"},{"start":26157.37,"end":26159.37,"text":"而且跟選舉有關係的"},{"start":26159.37,"end":26161.37,"text":"會再度的發生"},{"start":26161.37,"end":26163.37,"text":"我不曉得您的看法如何"},{"start":26163.37,"end":26165.37,"text":"另外"},{"start":26165.37,"end":26167.37,"text":"我把它一起問完"},{"start":26167.37,"end":26169.37,"text":"另外那麼這幾年呢"},{"start":26169.73,"end":26173.73,"text":"我們常常有社會秩序維護法"},{"start":26173.73,"end":26175.73,"text":"來送辦"},{"start":26175.73,"end":26177.73,"text":"那如果你看過去的"},{"start":26177.73,"end":26179.73,"text":"他的紀錄"},{"start":26179.91,"end":26181.91,"text":"操"},{"start":26181.17,"end":26183.17,"text":"111年到115年"},{"start":26183.17,"end":26185.17,"text":"可以看到"},{"start":26185.17,"end":26187.17,"text":"其實移送的案件"},{"start":26187.17,"end":26189.17,"text":"絕大部分"},{"start":26189.17,"end":26191.17,"text":"根本是完全"},{"start":26191.17,"end":26193.17,"text":"不成立的"},{"start":26193.17,"end":26195.17,"text":"完全不成立"},{"start":26195.17,"end":26197.17,"text":"都有大概七成"},{"start":26196.34,"end":26198.34,"text":"或到八成左右"},{"start":26198.5,"end":26200.5,"text":"那也就是說"},{"start":26199.92,"end":26201.92,"text":"社會秩序維護法的"},{"start":26201.92,"end":26203.92,"text":"移送或者約談"},{"start":26203.92,"end":26205.92,"text":"其實從這個"},{"start":26205.92,"end":26207.92,"text":"資料看起來"},{"start":26207.92,"end":26209.92,"text":"顯示他有濫用之虞"},{"start":26210.47,"end":26212.47,"text":"過去"},{"start":26212.47,"end":26214.47,"text":"監察院也曾經對幾個"},{"start":26214.47,"end":26216.47,"text":"案子提出了"},{"start":26216.47,"end":26218.47,"text":"提出了警告"},{"start":26218.47,"end":26220.47,"text":"或者提醒"},{"start":26219.76,"end":26221.76,"text":"例如呢"},{"start":26221.76,"end":26223.76,"text":"曾經過去監察院"}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6905.43,"end":26907.43,"text":"這些法律爭點的疑義"},{"start":26907.43,"end":26909.43,"text":"恐怕是憲政層次要去處理的"},{"start":26909.43,"end":26911.43,"text":"憲法法庭要去處理"},{"start":26911.43,"end":26913.43,"text":"但我們這邊會處理的就是說"},{"start":26913.43,"end":26915.43,"text":"監察院"},{"start":26915.43,"end":26917.43,"text":"監察院要處理的"},{"start":26917.43,"end":26919.43,"text":"如果在整個人員"},{"start":26919.43,"end":26921.43,"text":"他有違法失職"},{"start":26923.05,"end":26925.05,"text":"違背法令"},{"start":26925.05,"end":26927.05,"text":"而且有失職"},{"start":26927.05,"end":26929.05,"text":"情節重大的"},{"start":26929.05,"end":26931.05,"text":"他就會回到我們監院的處理"},{"start":26931.05,"end":26933.05,"text":"但是我想他有憲政層次的問題"},{"start":26933.05,"end":26935.05,"text":"我想這也是我身為法律人"},{"start":26935.05,"end":26937.05,"text":"我認為身為法律人"},{"start":26937.05,"end":26939.05,"text":"我也深刻期許的"},{"start":26939.05,"end":26941.05,"text":"該尊重你一定要尊重"},{"start":26941.05,"end":26943.05,"text":"這是人家憲政機關要處理的"},{"start":26943.05,"end":26945.05,"text":"為什麼你監察院要這樣子去處理呢"},{"start":26945.05,"end":26947.05,"text":"這是不宜的"},{"start":26947.05,"end":26949.05,"text":"您都點出了非常好的問題"},{"start":26949.05,"end":26951.05,"text":"我們憲法之下"},{"start":26951.05,"end":26953.05,"text":"我們現在五院"},{"start":26953.05,"end":26957.05,"text":"監察院、立法院、行政院"},{"start":26957.05,"end":26959.05,"text":"所以我們監察院"},{"start":26962.21,"end":26964.21,"text":"認為行政院"},{"start":26964.21,"end":26966.21,"text":"有違法失職"},{"start":26966.21,"end":26968.21,"text":"就要彈劾糾正"},{"start":26968.04,"end":26970.04,"text":"這個不必等到釋憲"},{"start":26970.04,"end":26972.04,"text":"那是司法權"},{"start":26971.8,"end":26973.8,"text":"那麼你是監察權"},{"start":26974.13,"end":26976.13,"text":"監察跟司法是平行的"},{"start":26976.46,"end":26978.46,"text":"我們監察沒必要等司法院來認定"},{"start":26978.46,"end":26980.46,"text":"有沒有違憲"},{"start":26980.46,"end":26982.46,"text":"是的,是平行的"},{"start":26982.46,"end":26986.46,"text":"我們沒有要等你司法的判斷或如何"},{"start":26986.46,"end":26988.46,"text":"但是"},{"start":26988.46,"end":26990.46,"text":"因為我們的調查有涉及到"},{"start":26990.46,"end":26992.46,"text":"我們要所謂的勿忘勿重"},{"start":26992.46,"end":26994.46,"text":"我的資料一定要完成"},{"start":26994.46,"end":26996.46,"text":"我不能很片段的去處理"},{"start":26996.46,"end":27000.46,"text":"這個也就是監察職權之所在"},{"start":27000.46,"end":27002.46,"text":"如果您成為監委以後"},{"start":27002.46,"end":27004.46,"text":"至少就行政院長不附屬"},{"start":27004.46,"end":27006.46,"text":"你會要申請立案"},{"start":27006.46,"end":27008.46,"text":"再來調查證據"},{"start":27008.46,"end":27010.46,"text":"不是,就是說"},{"start":27010.46,"end":27012.46,"text":"因為這也是個案"},{"start":27012.46,"end":27014.46,"text":"不好意思,這還是個案"},{"start":27014.46,"end":27016.46,"text":"但是我想因為憲法法庭的處理"},{"start":27016.46,"end":27018.46,"text":"現在已經不是個案了"},{"start":27018.46,"end":27020.46,"text":"好多法律都不被附屬"},{"start":27020.46,"end":27022.46,"text":"是我們台灣現在的行政院長"},{"start":27022.46,"end":27024.46,"text":"他不尊重我們立法權"},{"start":27024.46,"end":27026.46,"text":"一個人"},{"start":27026.46,"end":27032.46,"text":"就可以把兩千三百萬選出來的人民的立法院"},{"start":27032.46,"end":27034.46,"text":"所通過的法律案預算案"},{"start":27034.46,"end":27036.46,"text":"就不再附屬"},{"start":27037.73,"end":27039.73,"text":"這個是明顯違憲"},{"start":27039.73,"end":27041.73,"text":"所以已經是違法可以彈劾"},{"start":27042.34,"end":27046.34,"text":"但我認為中間是有些爭議之所在"},{"start":27046.34,"end":27048.34,"text":"因為我們法律人"},{"start":27048.34,"end":27051.34,"text":"我們會對一個法律意見確實是會非常堅持的"},{"start":27051.34,"end":27054.34,"text":"但是法律意見並不單一"},{"start":27054.34,"end":27056.34,"text":"它有些就是爭議之所在"},{"start":27056.34,"end":27058.34,"text":"所以我認為"},{"start":27058.34,"end":27060.34,"text":"這也是我到監院之後"},{"start":27060.34,"end":27062.34,"text":"我認為我處理事情"},{"start":27062.34,"end":27064.34,"text":"我不要只有一個角度"},{"start":27064.34,"end":27066.34,"text":"這也是之所以我辦理很多多言"},{"start":27066.34,"end":27068.34,"text":"我認為要從不同的角度一起看"},{"start":27068.34,"end":27070.34,"text":"我才會有一個勿忘勿重"},{"start":27070.34,"end":27072.34,"text":"我法律人或許您問我"},{"start":27072.34,"end":27074.34,"text":"我有一個法律意見我可以堅持"},{"start":27074.34,"end":27076.34,"text":"但是我身為監委"},{"start":27076.34,"end":27078.34,"text":"我就不該如此而已"},{"start":27078.34,"end":27080.34,"text":"我一定要全面去看"},{"start":27080.34,"end":27082.34,"text":"假設有憲法爭議"},{"start":27082.34,"end":27084.34,"text":"我認為有個爭議在"},{"start":27084.34,"end":27086.34,"text":"但每個人看法不一樣"},{"start":27086.34,"end":27088.34,"text":"我認為這裡出現了一個爭議"},{"start":27088.34,"end":27090.34,"text":"這個爭議又不是監法院可以處理的時候"},{"start":27090.34,"end":27092.34,"text":"我想我們就要再看一下這個爭議的處理"},{"start":27092.34,"end":27094.34,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":27094.34,"end":27096.34,"text":"另外一個問題"},{"start":27096.34,"end":27098.34,"text":"是"},{"start":27098.29,"end":27100.29,"text":"本黨主席柯文哲"},{"start":27100.88,"end":27102.88,"text":"在偵查階段"},{"start":27102.85,"end":27104.85,"text":"我們有偵查不公開嗎"},{"start":27105.11,"end":27107.11,"text":"但是各位可以看到"},{"start":27107.11,"end":27109.11,"text":"柯文哲主席的案件"},{"start":27109.53,"end":27111.53,"text":"在偵查不公開這個原則之下"},{"start":27112.62,"end":27114.62,"text":"竟然有一個媒體"},{"start":27114.62,"end":27116.62,"text":"鏡周刊"},{"start":27116.62,"end":27118.62,"text":"他幾乎是同時的發佈"}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我們知道的是"},{"start":27875.44,"end":27877.44,"text":"司法系統有他針對"},{"start":27877.44,"end":27879.44,"text":"這一個夏立思這樣的一個幼兒園"},{"start":27879.44,"end":27881.44,"text":"他的整個法律的問題"},{"start":27881.44,"end":27883.44,"text":"包括他兒虐不當對待的部分"},{"start":27883.44,"end":27885.44,"text":"他的刑責"},{"start":27885.44,"end":27887.44,"text":"可是這已經牽涉到的是地方政府"},{"start":27887.44,"end":27889.44,"text":"尤其是地方的教育局"},{"start":27889.44,"end":27891.44,"text":"在案發之後"},{"start":27891.44,"end":27893.44,"text":"接受到了1999"},{"start":27893.44,"end":27895.44,"text":"超過13通"},{"start":27895.44,"end":27897.44,"text":"的申訴的時候"},{"start":27897.44,"end":27899.44,"text":"他的不積極 他的不作為"},{"start":27899.44,"end":27901.44,"text":"他恐怕不是司法機構"},{"start":27901.44,"end":27903.44,"text":"可以第一線來做處理"},{"start":27903.44,"end":27905.44,"text":"就需要監察權"},{"start":27905.44,"end":27907.44,"text":"另外最後一點點時間"},{"start":27907.44,"end":27909.44,"text":"我要跟你們討論的是"},{"start":27909.07,"end":27911.07,"text":"我們都知道我們要保護"},{"start":27911.07,"end":27913.07,"text":"兒少的權益"},{"start":27913.07,"end":27915.07,"text":"但是保護兒少權益"},{"start":27915.07,"end":27917.07,"text":"並不能成為"},{"start":27917.07,"end":27919.07,"text":"加害者的保護傘"},{"start":27919.3,"end":27921.3,"text":"因為在許多的兒少案件當中"},{"start":27921.3,"end":27923.3,"text":"本來是來自於媒體"},{"start":27923.3,"end":27925.3,"text":"媒體受限於"},{"start":27925.3,"end":27927.3,"text":"兒少的保護"},{"start":27927.3,"end":27929.3,"text":"很多時候的加害人"},{"start":27929.3,"end":27931.3,"text":"因為你不能去對他做進一步的報導"},{"start":27931.3,"end":27933.3,"text":"導致於這個加害人"},{"start":27933.3,"end":27935.3,"text":"就逃掉了"},{"start":27935.3,"end":27937.3,"text":"甚至於家長在不知情的情況下"},{"start":27937.3,"end":27939.3,"text":"把孩子送進去"},{"start":27939.3,"end":27941.3,"text":"我今天不是來跟你討論修法的部分"},{"start":27941.3,"end":27943.3,"text":"而是要跟你討論的是說"},{"start":27943.3,"end":27945.3,"text":"在地方政府如果沒有辦法"},{"start":27945.3,"end":27947.3,"text":"第一時間給媒體"},{"start":27947.3,"end":27949.3,"text":"在參觀單位報導權的時候"},{"start":27949.3,"end":27951.3,"text":"這個是等於是揚入虎口"},{"start":27951.3,"end":27953.3,"text":"而且讓這些違法"},{"start":27953.3,"end":27955.3,"text":"的幼兒組織"},{"start":27955.3,"end":27957.3,"text":"或是教育團體"},{"start":27957.3,"end":27959.3,"text":"有機會能夠持續的行惡"},{"start":27959.3,"end":27961.3,"text":"那就監委的角度"},{"start":27961.3,"end":27963.3,"text":"你怎麼來看這個部分"},{"start":27963.3,"end":27965.3,"text":"就是跟不揭露之間"},{"start":27965.3,"end":27967.3,"text":"他這條尺是如何"},{"start":27967.3,"end":27969.3,"text":"是其實這個是兒少權法"},{"start":27969.3,"end":27971.3,"text":"的六九條相關的一個問題"},{"start":27971.3,"end":27973.3,"text":"它其實"},{"start":27973.3,"end":27975.3,"text":"我們監察院在處理像"},{"start":27975.3,"end":27977.3,"text":"兒少或性平事件"},{"start":27977.3,"end":27979.3,"text":"我們在報告"},{"start":27997.5,"end":27999.5,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":28009.19,"end":28011.19,"text":"好 我們謝謝被提名的人"},{"start":28011.19,"end":28013.19,"text":"時間到了"},{"start":28013.75,"end":28015.75,"text":"請下一位"},{"start":28015.75,"end":28017.75,"text":"紐約許廷委員詢問"},{"start":28028.53,"end":28030.53,"text":"謝謝主席張被提名人"},{"start":28032.54,"end":28034.54,"text":"被提名人 被取消"},{"start":28044.42,"end":28046.42,"text":"好 午安 辛苦了"},{"start":28046.42,"end":28048.42,"text":"今天是監察委員的"},{"start":28048.42,"end":28050.42,"text":"同意選擇相關的一個質詢"},{"start":28050.42,"end":28052.42,"text":"稍早早上的時候"},{"start":28052.42,"end":28054.42,"text":"我曾經質詢過院長被提名人"},{"start":28054.42,"end":28056.42,"text":"時間的關係我們沒有辦法多探討"},{"start":28056.42,"end":28058.42,"text":"監察院在政治實務上"},{"start":28058.42,"end":28060.42,"text":"一些角色的扮演"},{"start":28060.42,"end":28062.42,"text":"我們多花時間討論憲政的奮進"},{"start":28062.42,"end":28064.42,"text":"監察院的社會形象"},{"start":28064.42,"end":28066.42,"text":"跟大家對監察院的期待"},{"start":28066.42,"end":28068.42,"text":"我們就花一點時間聽一聽你的意見"},{"start":28068.42,"end":28070.42,"text":"這個我開宗明義"},{"start":28070.42,"end":28072.42,"text":"我就請你主動回答"},{"start":28072.42,"end":28074.42,"text":"請問我們被提名人能不能舉幾個例子"},{"start":28074.42,"end":28076.42,"text":"就是說幾個重大的社會矚目案件"},{"start":28076.42,"end":28078.42,"text":"比如說像之前講兒虐"},{"start":28078.42,"end":28080.42,"text":"或是最近的食安用油"},{"start":28080.42,"end":28082.42,"text":"有這樣重大的一個弊案"},{"start":28082.42,"end":28084.42,"text":"那是經過"},{"start":28084.42,"end":28086.42,"text":"監察院發動"},{"start":28088.05,"end":28090.05,"text":"然後因為監察院的調查"},{"start":28090.65,"end":28092.65,"text":"發動快速的調查"},{"start":28092.65,"end":28094.65,"text":"強勢的處理"},{"start":28094.07,"end":28096.07,"text":"然後才為社會大眾所周知的"},{"start":28096.07,"end":28098.07,"text":"有沒有幾個這樣子的案你可以跟大家分享"},{"start":28098.07,"end":28100.07,"text":"我但我有個人認知的問題"},{"start":28100.07,"end":28102.07,"text":"就是說所謂大家矚目的案件"},{"start":28102.07,"end":28104.07,"text":"像剛才講到的幾個兒虐案"},{"start":28104.07,"end":28106.07,"text":"我想大家都一個是凱凱案"},{"start":28106.07,"end":28108.07,"text":"以及像南投校長詮釋性侵"},{"start":28108.07,"end":28110.07,"text":"好像大家都會"},{"start":28110.07,"end":28112.07,"text":"這個是一個受到大家關切跟矚目的案件"},{"start":28112.07,"end":28114.07,"text":"以及食品安全"},{"start":28114.07,"end":28116.07,"text":"食安的一些問題"},{"start":28116.07,"end":28118.07,"text":"這些我看你的報告"},{"start":28118.07,"end":28120.07,"text":"你寫你辦了很多案子"},{"start":28120.07,"end":28122.07,"text":"這個我分析"},{"start":28122.07,"end":28124.07,"text":"所以你寫你辦了很多案子"},{"start":28124.07,"end":28126.07,"text":"所以您提到的是"},{"start":28126.07,"end":28128.07,"text":"像公安的部分像台鐵這個"},{"start":28128.07,"end":28130.07,"text":"發生重大災害"},{"start":28130.07,"end":28132.07,"text":"造成死亡我們彈劾了相關的"},{"start":28132.07,"end":28134.07,"text":"首長跟救生"},{"start":28134.07,"end":28136.07,"text":"我知道這些案件比如說你剛剛也很多"},{"start":28136.07,"end":28138.07,"text":"比如說巴德的天花板掉下來啊"},{"start":28138.07,"end":28140.07,"text":"這個都是沒有錯的"},{"start":28140.07,"end":28142.07,"text":"但這個事情都是由悲劇發生"},{"start":28142.07,"end":28144.07,"text":"而且立刻性的畫面就讓全國周知"},{"start":28144.07,"end":28146.07,"text":"然後大家就會同步進行調查"},{"start":28146.07,"end":28148.07,"text":"立法院這邊當然就會針對相關的一些"},{"start":28148.07,"end":28150.07,"text":"私政的缺失我們就安排專案包安排質詢"},{"start":28150.07,"end":28152.07,"text":"然後會啟動調查的程序"},{"start":28152.07,"end":28154.07,"text":"這個沒有關係我要問的是"},{"start":28154.07,"end":28156.07,"text":"是由你監察因為監察院有監察跟調查之權"},{"start":28156.07,"end":28158.07,"text":"有些時候這個可以調院內部的這個文件"},{"start":28158.07,"end":28160.07,"text":"等等審核相關的一些決算"},{"start":28160.07,"end":28162.07,"text":"這個能夠掌握真正"},{"start":28162.07,"end":28164.07,"text":"私政的維持的強度其實是比立法院高很多的"},{"start":28164.07,"end":28166.07,"text":"也就是為什麼這社會大眾"},{"start":28166.07,"end":28168.07,"text":"其實對監察院的期待"},{"start":28168.07,"end":28170.07,"text":"是叫你打弊案"},{"start":28170.07,"end":28172.07,"text":"因為你能看到的東西可能比立法院看到的還多"},{"start":28172.07,"end":28174.07,"text":"所以說我剛剛問的是"},{"start":28174.07,"end":28176.07,"text":"從監察院發動"},{"start":28176.07,"end":28178.07,"text":"因為你的調查報告出來"},{"start":28178.07,"end":28180.07,"text":"所以你會開始關注這個案子"},{"start":28180.07,"end":28182.07,"text":"然後你還伴隨著這個"},{"start":28182.07,"end":28184.07,"text":"因為你調查報告已經出來啦"},{"start":28184.07,"end":28186.07,"text":"成果已經出來啦你還強力的執法"},{"start":28186.07,"end":28188.07,"text":"強勢的處理然後讓社會大眾覺得"},{"start":28188.07,"end":28190.07,"text":"因為有監察院的存在"},{"start":28190.07,"end":28192.07,"text":"因為監察院的主動調查主動的報告"},{"start":28192.07,"end":28194.07,"text":"接到的弊案搞定了弊案"},{"start":28194.07,"end":28198.07,"text":"懲戒了壞蛋讓這個社會的公道得以彰顯"},{"start":28198.07,"end":28200.07,"text":"我要聽的是這樣的案例有嗎"},{"start":28200.07,"end":28202.07,"text":"我從我的理解"},{"start":28202.07,"end":28204.07,"text":"其實是"},{"start":28204.07,"end":28206.07,"text":"監察調查我想也趁這個機會"},{"start":28206.07,"end":28208.07,"text":"跟大家去說明"},{"start":28208.07,"end":28210.07,"text":"監察調查他是一個事後的監督"},{"start":28210.07,"end":28212.07,"text":"很多外界的質疑"},{"start":28212.07,"end":28214.07,"text":"我想是一個虛心要檢討的一個問題"},{"start":28214.07,"end":28216.07,"text":"有信任的問題"},{"start":28216.07,"end":28218.07,"text":"有監督的問題"},{"start":28218.07,"end":28220.07,"text":"但是監察職權"},{"start":28220.07,"end":28222.07,"text":"他是一個我必須要說明"},{"start":28222.07,"end":28224.07,"text":"因為各位可以試想"},{"start":28224.07,"end":28226.07,"text":"一個案件的發生"},{"start":28226.07,"end":28228.07,"text":"大家是最被關注的"},{"start":28228.07,"end":28230.07,"text":"這個時間點"},{"start":28230.07,"end":28232.07,"text":"大家看到了一個重大災害的一個發生"},{"start":28232.07,"end":28234.07,"text":"可是監察院像我個人"},{"start":28234.07,"end":28236.07,"text":"我認為這個案子需要立案"},{"start":28236.48,"end":28238.48,"text":"我就進入立案的一個過程"},{"start":28238.48,"end":28240.48,"text":"立案的過程之後"},{"start":28240.48,"end":28242.48,"text":"我們有各項的調查作為"},{"start":28242.82,"end":28244.82,"text":"我已經近期可能的"},{"start":28244.82,"end":28246.82,"text":"我從延溪我到調卷"},{"start":28246.82,"end":28248.82,"text":"很仔細的辦案"},{"start":28248.82,"end":28250.82,"text":"這個我都肯定"},{"start":28250.82,"end":28252.82,"text":"也就是說我們"},{"start":28252.82,"end":28254.82,"text":"有需要一個時間的辦案"},{"start":28254.82,"end":28256.82,"text":"我即便如何快"},{"start":28256.82,"end":28258.82,"text":"我不可能是在第一個時間"},{"start":28258.82,"end":28260.82,"text":"我之所以會問這個問題"},{"start":28260.82,"end":28262.82,"text":"不好意思我打斷你一下"},{"start":28262.82,"end":28264.82,"text":"我知道你講你有你的一個詳細"},{"start":28264.82,"end":28266.82,"text":"當然我們調查都很認真"},{"start":28266.82,"end":28268.82,"text":"這個我不會否定你的努力"},{"start":28268.82,"end":28270.82,"text":"問題就是這樣"},{"start":28270.82,"end":28272.82,"text":"因為這個大家的報告都會寫"},{"start":28272.82,"end":28274.82,"text":"每一年監察院的人民懲刑的數量"},{"start":28274.82,"end":28276.82,"text":"數十萬件"},{"start":28276.82,"end":28278.82,"text":"其實很多的弊案也就在吹哨者"},{"start":28278.82,"end":28280.82,"text":"都會對監察院有所期待"},{"start":28280.82,"end":28282.82,"text":"都藏在裡面"},{"start":28282.82,"end":28284.82,"text":"所以你剛講純然只有做事後調查"},{"start":28284.82,"end":28286.82,"text":"這本行不見得同意"},{"start":28286.82,"end":28288.82,"text":"很多時候來找立法委員的懲刑"},{"start":28288.82,"end":28290.82,"text":"說政府有重大維持"},{"start":28290.82,"end":28292.82,"text":"他其實同步都告訴了監察院"},{"start":28292.82,"end":28294.82,"text":"所以我才覺得以監察院相關的量能"},{"start":28294.82,"end":28296.82,"text":"跟調查的手段"},{"start":28296.82,"end":28298.82,"text":"你其實完全可以事前的掌握"},{"start":28298.82,"end":28300.82,"text":"事情發生之後"},{"start":28300.82,"end":28302.82,"text":"當然你都做事後調查"},{"start":28302.82,"end":28304.82,"text":"這個我不會否定你"},{"start":28304.82,"end":28306.82,"text":"但是我也舉個例子"},{"start":28306.82,"end":28308.82,"text":"比如說經貿談判辦公室的霸凌案"},{"start":28308.82,"end":28310.82,"text":"顏蕙欣副代表是2026年3月就辭職了"},{"start":28310.82,"end":28312.82,"text":"過世了之後案子才爆開"},{"start":28312.82,"end":28314.82,"text":"立法院追這個案子追了好幾個月"},{"start":28314.82,"end":28316.82,"text":"然後7月2號行政院直接做處分"},{"start":28316.82,"end":28318.82,"text":"把楊貞妮政委給免職"},{"start":28318.82,"end":28320.82,"text":"然後你的報告"},{"start":28320.82,"end":28322.82,"text":"是到7月29號才出來"},{"start":28322.82,"end":28324.82,"text":"我現在擔心的是這件事情"},{"start":28324.82,"end":28326.82,"text":"也藉這個機會跟被提名來做一個分享"},{"start":28326.82,"end":28328.82,"text":"人民對於監察院之所以"},{"start":28328.82,"end":28330.82,"text":"已經有點心灰意冷了"},{"start":28330.82,"end":28332.82,"text":"反正是盲腸嘛"},{"start":28332.82,"end":28334.82,"text":"其實很大的原因是這樣"},{"start":28334.82,"end":28336.82,"text":"你每年辦很多案件你也都非常認真"},{"start":28336.82,"end":28338.82,"text":"但是問題是你沒有從頭到尾"},{"start":28338.82,"end":28340.82,"text":"善差於一前"},{"start":28340.82,"end":28342.82,"text":"從沒有人下手的地方去掌握"},{"start":28342.82,"end":28344.82,"text":"然後辦到一個案子讓大家都關注到"},{"start":28344.82,"end":28346.82,"text":"而且彰顯的社會公道"},{"start":28346.82,"end":28348.82,"text":"我想這是有誤會的地方"},{"start":28348.82,"end":28350.82,"text":"這是誤會"},{"start":28350.82,"end":28352.82,"text":"我現在我才請你舉一個例子"},{"start":28352.82,"end":28354.82,"text":"我請你舉一個例子的原因是"},{"start":28354.82,"end":28356.82,"text":"我講所謂的事後監督"},{"start":28356.82,"end":28358.82,"text":"是說我們會尊重"},{"start":28358.82,"end":28360.82,"text":"願意政策的執行我們會尊重"},{"start":28360.82,"end":28362.82,"text":"如果他的執行的過程"},{"start":28362.82,"end":28364.82,"text":"發生問題"},{"start":28364.82,"end":28366.82,"text":"那就是我們監察權要處理的地方"},{"start":28366.82,"end":28368.82,"text":"不是說我們慢半拍"},{"start":28368.82,"end":28370.82,"text":"不是那個意思啊"},{"start":28370.82,"end":28372.82,"text":"這就是監察職權的一個本質啊"},{"start":28372.82,"end":28374.82,"text":"我必須是這樣的一個處理"},{"start":28374.82,"end":28376.82,"text":"所以再來我講外界真的是誤會了"},{"start":28376.82,"end":28378.82,"text":"我個人參與的案件"},{"start":28378.82,"end":28380.82,"text":"是150多件"},{"start":28380.82,"end":28382.82,"text":"我沒有講你辦的很少啊"},{"start":28382.82,"end":28384.82,"text":"你再偷懶我的意思是說"},{"start":28384.82,"end":28386.82,"text":"你辦案你總要找重大主辦"},{"start":28386.82,"end":28388.82,"text":"你才會讓社會對監察院有期待"},{"start":28388.82,"end":28390.82,"text":"這因為很多委員每一個機構問你"},{"start":28390.82,"end":28392.82,"text":"監察院存廢的立場什麼大家在這邊講半天"},{"start":28392.82,"end":28394.82,"text":"對吧可是真正民間的觀感是這樣"},{"start":28394.82,"end":28396.82,"text":"這是你"},{"start":28396.82,"end":28398.82,"text":"四點一次面對民意的這個直接"},{"start":28398.82,"end":28400.82,"text":"間接的機會對不對"},{"start":28400.82,"end":28402.82,"text":"我們是這個地方我跟這個背景的人做一下分享"},{"start":28402.82,"end":28404.82,"text":"民意的信任我想"},{"start":28404.82,"end":28406.82,"text":"絕對需要虛心檢討的"},{"start":28406.82,"end":28408.82,"text":"但是我個人其實是"},{"start":28408.82,"end":28410.82,"text":"針對其實不管是"},{"start":28410.82,"end":28412.82,"text":"像我們剛剛提到的一些案型"},{"start":28412.82,"end":28414.82,"text":"我辦理非常多的一個案型"},{"start":28414.82,"end":28416.82,"text":"我是認為真的"},{"start":28416.82,"end":28418.82,"text":"我是認真負責"},{"start":28418.82,"end":28420.82,"text":"吳慧雲這前面一個任期"},{"start":28420.82,"end":28422.82,"text":"這個到最後"},{"start":28422.82,"end":28424.82,"text":"為什麼講人民對監察院沒什麼印象"},{"start":28424.82,"end":28426.82,"text":"結果唯一有印象這我就跟你討論一下"},{"start":28426.82,"end":28428.82,"text":"監察院的公務車濫用的問題"},{"start":28428.82,"end":28430.82,"text":"2025年這個"},{"start":28430.82,"end":28432.82,"text":"秘書長李俊義他已經辭職了"},{"start":28432.82,"end":28434.82,"text":"還有王龍章監委田秋吉監委"},{"start":28434.82,"end":28436.82,"text":"林運榮監委蘇立雄等人"},{"start":28436.82,"end":28438.82,"text":"也許有走在灰色地帶吧"},{"start":28438.82,"end":28440.82,"text":"也許是所謂的違法使用"},{"start":28440.82,"end":28442.82,"text":"監察院的公務車量情勢"},{"start":28442.82,"end":28444.82,"text":"這細節我就不再多贅述了"},{"start":28444.82,"end":28446.82,"text":"這個監察委員使用公務車"},{"start":28446.82,"end":28448.82,"text":"不管是接送子女跑機場"},{"start":28448.82,"end":28450.82,"text":"送寵物美容理髮看牙"},{"start":28450.82,"end":28452.82,"text":"有沒有符合執行公務的原則"},{"start":28452.82,"end":28454.82,"text":"其實委員您剛剛提到的"},{"start":28454.82,"end":28456.82,"text":"公務車案就是"},{"start":28456.82,"end":28458.82,"text":"監察院已經有做處理"},{"start":28458.82,"end":28462.82,"text":"對監察委員自律規範"},{"start":28462.82,"end":28464.82,"text":"我們有個相關的法源的依據"},{"start":28464.82,"end":28466.82,"text":"去做了一個處理"},{"start":28466.82,"end":28468.82,"text":"從紀律委員會審議過"},{"start":28468.82,"end":28470.82,"text":"已經送院會審議通過"},{"start":28470.82,"end":28472.82,"text":"後來就是大家已經看到"},{"start":28472.82,"end":28474.82,"text":"外界看到的包括對於委員的"},{"start":28474.82,"end":28476.82,"text":"相關的一個處分"},{"start":28476.82,"end":28478.82,"text":"已經有處分"},{"start":28478.82,"end":28480.82,"text":"以及我們認為"},{"start":28480.82,"end":28482.82,"text":"我們辦理一個個案"},{"start":28482.82,"end":28484.82,"text":"我們也要去看到"},{"start":28484.82,"end":28486.82,"text":"我們不希望有下面的個案"},{"start":28486.82,"end":28488.82,"text":"所以就是說"},{"start":28488.82,"end":28490.82,"text":"也請秘書處從法規面"},{"start":28490.82,"end":28492.82,"text":"跟制度面"},{"start":28492.82,"end":28494.82,"text":"要有監察修正"},{"start":28494.82,"end":28496.82,"text":"委員您剛剛提到的"},{"start":28496.82,"end":28498.82,"text":"監察院確實我們是直施奉獻"},{"start":28498.82,"end":28500.82,"text":"我們要嚴以律己"},{"start":28500.82,"end":28502.82,"text":"妥善的行使"},{"start":28502.82,"end":28504.82,"text":"相關的一個自律規範"},{"start":28504.82,"end":28506.82,"text":"但是其實是符合的"},{"start":28506.82,"end":28508.82,"text":"我想基本上就是"},{"start":28508.82,"end":28510.82,"text":"也沒有要去救助"},{"start":28510.82,"end":28512.82,"text":"我之所以問你這個問題的原因"},{"start":28512.82,"end":28514.82,"text":"就是因為你是當初紀律委員會的委員之一"},{"start":28514.82,"end":28516.82,"text":"你在這個你們內部開會的時候"},{"start":28516.82,"end":28518.82,"text":"你的立場是什麼"},{"start":28518.82,"end":28520.82,"text":"在討論這件事情的時候你的主張是什麼"},{"start":28520.82,"end":28522.82,"text":"我想這個部分是不是容我這邊"},{"start":28522.82,"end":28524.82,"text":"因為那是一個紀律委員會審議的過程"},{"start":28524.82,"end":28526.82,"text":"那個並沒有對外"},{"start":28526.82,"end":28528.82,"text":"我個人是一個法律人"},{"start":28528.82,"end":28530.82,"text":"我針對相關的規範"},{"start":28530.82,"end":28532.82,"text":"我研究的非常的仔細"},{"start":28532.82,"end":28534.82,"text":"我經過整個規範"},{"start":28534.82,"end":28536.82,"text":"整個嚴格去看"},{"start":28536.82,"end":28538.82,"text":"然後做出我的法律意見"},{"start":28538.82,"end":28540.82,"text":"我大概只能是這樣"},{"start":28540.82,"end":28542.82,"text":"不好意思給大家說明"},{"start":28542.82,"end":28544.82,"text":"但是那個審議的過程"},{"start":28544.82,"end":28546.82,"text":"就不變了"},{"start":28546.82,"end":28548.82,"text":"我一樣是要提醒被提名人這裡"},{"start":28548.82,"end":28550.82,"text":"今天站在這邊難得一次"},{"start":28550.82,"end":28552.82,"text":"所以我今天在做名義檢驗的時候"},{"start":28552.82,"end":28554.82,"text":"雖然是間接的一個方式"},{"start":28554.82,"end":28556.82,"text":"大家都在講"},{"start":28556.82,"end":28558.82,"text":"我們剛講積極功能"},{"start":28558.82,"end":28560.82,"text":"可能還有一點跟期待上有點落差"},{"start":28560.82,"end":28562.82,"text":"出現一些事情的時候"},{"start":28562.82,"end":28564.82,"text":"其實紀律委員會就是最後一道防線"},{"start":28564.82,"end":28566.82,"text":"因為監察委員總不能互相彈劾"},{"start":28566.82,"end":28568.82,"text":"所以大家也對這件事情之所以會多所抱怨"},{"start":28568.82,"end":28570.82,"text":"他其實就是這樣"},{"start":28570.82,"end":28572.82,"text":"因為到了最後紀律委員會的決議"},{"start":28572.82,"end":28574.82,"text":"然後院會通過向院會道歉"},{"start":28574.82,"end":28576.82,"text":"然後觸其注意"},{"start":28576.82,"end":28578.82,"text":"然後就沒有然後了"},{"start":28578.82,"end":28580.82,"text":"所以會否符合名義的期待"},{"start":28580.8,"end":28582.8,"text":"所以沒有法律尊重我尊重"},{"start":28582.8,"end":28584.8,"text":"但是你符不符合名義的期待"},{"start":28584.8,"end":28586.8,"text":"其實名義期待當然是一個部分"},{"start":28586.8,"end":28588.8,"text":"因為我們就是要保護人民權益的"},{"start":28588.8,"end":28590.8,"text":"名義的期待就是他們的聲音"},{"start":28590.8,"end":28592.8,"text":"但是這邊我想要說明的"},{"start":28592.8,"end":28594.8,"text":"每一個個案"},{"start":28594.8,"end":28596.8,"text":"即便不同的委員"},{"start":28596.8,"end":28598.8,"text":"他所他涉及到一個部分"},{"start":28598.8,"end":28600.8,"text":"都不一樣的"},{"start":28601.64,"end":28605.64,"text":"那就是要尊重處理的委員他的一個調查"},{"start":28605.64,"end":28607.64,"text":"他的調查對阿你剛剛講不能講"},{"start":28607.64,"end":28609.64,"text":"我們又依據事實依據法律"},{"start":28609.64,"end":28611.64,"text":"這是我當律師到監委我一貫這個的"},{"start":28611.64,"end":28613.64,"text":"我只是問市政到哪裡"},{"start":28613.64,"end":28615.64,"text":"我想提醒一下因為你也是法律人"},{"start":28615.64,"end":28617.64,"text":"對不對"},{"start":28617.64,"end":28619.64,"text":"曾經有女警開巡邏車接送男友判刑三個月"},{"start":28619.64,"end":28621.64,"text":"消防局長駕駛救災指揮車到台中辦理"},{"start":28621.64,"end":28623.64,"text":"實施判刑一年"},{"start":28623.64,"end":28625.64,"text":"消防隊隊長騎乘警用機車上下班判刑一年六個月"},{"start":28625.64,"end":28627.64,"text":"這是其實在公務員上"},{"start":28627.64,"end":28629.64,"text":"也有濫用公務車這樣的問題"},{"start":28629.64,"end":28631.64,"text":"但是標準是否真的一致"},{"start":28631.64,"end":28633.64,"text":"我覺得社會大眾自有公斷"},{"start":28633.64,"end":28635.64,"text":"我今天在這個地方不外乎就是一個"},{"start":28635.64,"end":28637.64,"text":"跟民意間接對話的機會"},{"start":28637.64,"end":28639.64,"text":"所以我把民間對於監察院的諸多質疑"},{"start":28639.64,"end":28641.64,"text":"第一個是辦案有沒有發揮查弊的功能"},{"start":28641.64,"end":28643.64,"text":"第二個是在發生危機事件的時候"},{"start":28643.64,"end":28645.64,"text":"因為制度標準是不是很高"},{"start":28645.64,"end":28647.64,"text":"這些東西其實都值得社會多再做思考"},{"start":28647.64,"end":28649.64,"text":"也請被提門思考一下"},{"start":28650.2,"end":28652.2,"text":"好謝謝牛委員"},{"start":28652.03,"end":28654.03,"text":"下一位請審發會委員詢問"},{"start":28671.92,"end":28673.92,"text":"主席我們請張被提名人"},{"start":28683.89,"end":28685.89,"text":"好張醫師你好"},{"start":28685.89,"end":28687.89,"text":"這個我想張醫師過去具有"},{"start":28687.89,"end":28689.89,"text":"這個深厚的法律實務經驗"},{"start":28689.89,"end":28691.89,"text":"那這個長期投入這個"},{"start":28691.89,"end":28693.89,"text":"法律輔助、司法改革、性別平權"},{"start":28693.89,"end":28695.89,"text":"跟這個兒少權益的保障"},{"start":28697.96,"end":28699.96,"text":"那你這次也是連任"},{"start":28699.96,"end":28701.96,"text":"因為你過去擔任第六屆監察委員之後"},{"start":28701.96,"end":28703.96,"text":"你也把你過去在這個法律的專業"},{"start":28703.96,"end":28705.96,"text":"跟你在這個公民社會的這些經驗"},{"start":28705.96,"end":28707.96,"text":"是"},{"start":28707.96,"end":28709.96,"text":"這個帶到這個有關於這個"},{"start":28709.96,"end":28711.96,"text":"司法違師、兒少保護、性別暴力、公共安全"},{"start":28711.96,"end":28713.96,"text":"跟這個行政不法侵害"},{"start":28716.98,"end":28718.98,"text":"人權的這些相關的調查工作"},{"start":28718.98,"end":28720.98,"text":"這部分我首先在這裡向你致意"},{"start":28720.98,"end":28722.98,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":28722.98,"end":28724.98,"text":"給予高度的肯定"},{"start":28724.98,"end":28726.98,"text":"那除了這個之外"},{"start":28726.98,"end":28728.98,"text":"您過去在這個國家人權委員會的工作方面"},{"start":28728.98,"end":28730.98,"text":"你也這個參與了這些"},{"start":28730.98,"end":28732.98,"text":"以我看到的資料"},{"start":28732.98,"end":28734.98,"text":"跟我過去關心的幾個部分"},{"start":28734.98,"end":28736.98,"text":"你參與了這個"},{"start":28736.98,"end":28738.98,"text":"防治酷刑機制的這個"},{"start":28739.78,"end":28741.78,"text":"事情計畫的實地參訪"},{"start":28741.78,"end":28743.78,"text":"實地訪視"},{"start":28743.78,"end":28745.78,"text":"而且在這個校園跟這個安置機構的"},{"start":28745.78,"end":28747.78,"text":"兒少性侵害的"},{"start":28747.78,"end":28749.78,"text":"系統性調查當中"},{"start":28749.78,"end":28751.78,"text":"你也擔任這個"},{"start":28751.78,"end":28753.78,"text":"督辦委員"},{"start":28753.92,"end":28755.92,"text":"那這個也曾參與這個監察院"},{"start":28755.92,"end":28757.92,"text":"在監察院辦理第三十七屆的"},{"start":28757.92,"end":28759.92,"text":"這個APOR的這個"},{"start":28759.92,"end":28761.92,"text":"奧紐及太平洋地區監察史年會"},{"start":28761.92,"end":28763.92,"text":"我看你還擔任這個"},{"start":28764.4,"end":28768.4,"text":"國家酷刑防治機制的實踐跟落實的研討會的主持人"},{"start":28768.4,"end":28770.4,"text":"是是是"},{"start":28770.4,"end":28772.4,"text":"這個就跟這個與會各股"},{"start":28772.4,"end":28776.4,"text":"就消除這個性別暴力跟人權保障交換經驗"},{"start":28776.4,"end":28778.4,"text":"可以說在這個人權方面"},{"start":28778.4,"end":28780.4,"text":"也做了相當多的這個努力"},{"start":28782.13,"end":28784.13,"text":"那我按照這個監察院的官網資料"},{"start":28784.13,"end":28786.13,"text":"我看到這個我們"},{"start":28786.13,"end":28788.13,"text":"被提名人在第六屆的任內"},{"start":28788.13,"end":28790.13,"text":"你正式參與這個正式的監察案件"},{"start":28790.13,"end":28792.13,"text":"這個包括調查報告"},{"start":28792.13,"end":28794.13,"text":"多達一百四十三件"},{"start":28794.13,"end":28796.13,"text":"一百五十件"},{"start":28796.13,"end":28798.13,"text":"那我這個資料還少"},{"start":28798.13,"end":28800.13,"text":"那其中糾正案六十五件"},{"start":28800.13,"end":28802.13,"text":"糾取案一件"},{"start":28802.13,"end":28804.13,"text":"總計合計兩百零九件"},{"start":28804.13,"end":28806.13,"text":"我現在看到的這個資料是這樣"},{"start":28806.2,"end":28808.2,"text":"那這個從整體案件方向來看來"},{"start":28808.2,"end":28810.2,"text":"這個"},{"start":28810.23,"end":28812.23,"text":"這個張律師是相當的稱職的"},{"start":28812.23,"end":28814.23,"text":"那而且你的這個監察工作"},{"start":28814.23,"end":28816.23,"text":"不是零散的處理這個案"},{"start":28816.23,"end":28818.23,"text":"而是你有一些重點"},{"start":28818.23,"end":28820.23,"text":"就是有關於弱勢權益"},{"start":28820.23,"end":28822.23,"text":"公共安全跟這個制度的究責"},{"start":28822.23,"end":28824.23,"text":"大概是你關注的核心"},{"start":28824.23,"end":28826.23,"text":"那所以以下我就大概就幾個方面"},{"start":28826.23,"end":28828.23,"text":"來請教這個張律師"},{"start":28828.23,"end":28830.23,"text":"你在未來如果你有機會"},{"start":28830.23,"end":28832.23,"text":"繼續擔任監察委員的話"},{"start":28832.23,"end":28834.23,"text":"你要如何延續跟深化相關的工作"},{"start":28834.23,"end":28836.23,"text":"這是我"},{"start":28836.17,"end":28838.17,"text":"接下來是幾個問題"},{"start":28838.6,"end":28840.6,"text":"首先這個"},{"start":28840.71,"end":28842.71,"text":"這個張律師非常長期"},{"start":28842.71,"end":28844.71,"text":"這個深耕而且非常關注的"},{"start":28844.71,"end":28846.71,"text":"這個有關兒少保護跟校園安全的問題"},{"start":28848.16,"end":28850.16,"text":"這個"},{"start":28849.31,"end":28851.31,"text":"您過去對著兒少保護校園"},{"start":28851.78,"end":28853.78,"text":"這個信評跟這個社會安全網"},{"start":28853.78,"end":28855.78,"text":"都有長期深入的投入"},{"start":28855.78,"end":28857.78,"text":"那這個我想請問就是說"},{"start":28857.78,"end":28859.78,"text":"如果你能夠續任"},{"start":28859.78,"end":28861.78,"text":"那你認為下一個階段關於兒少保護機制"},{"start":28861.78,"end":28863.78,"text":"最需要補強的部分是哪些部分"},{"start":28863.78,"end":28865.78,"text":"這個是通報呢"},{"start":28865.78,"end":28867.78,"text":"還是這個跨機關的資訊整合"},{"start":28867.78,"end":28869.78,"text":"或者是案件的後續追蹤"},{"start":28869.78,"end":28871.78,"text":"那我也想了解"},{"start":28871.78,"end":28873.78,"text":"這監察院如何促使各主管機關建立"},{"start":28873.78,"end":28875.78,"text":"可以長期檢驗的這些改善指標"},{"start":28875.78,"end":28877.78,"text":"讓監察成果"},{"start":28877.78,"end":28879.78,"text":"能夠真正轉化為制度性的這個預設"},{"start":28879.78,"end":28881.78,"text":"這個預防"},{"start":28882.57,"end":28884.57,"text":"這部分是不是能夠請張律師"},{"start":28884.57,"end":28886.57,"text":"就這部分做個說明"},{"start":28886.57,"end":28888.57,"text":"好的謝謝"},{"start":28888.57,"end":28890.57,"text":"關於這個兒少的部分"},{"start":28890.57,"end":28892.57,"text":"我在前面也提到過"},{"start":28892.57,"end":28894.57,"text":"其實因為我個人參與"},{"start":28894.57,"end":28896.57,"text":"我從當律師的時候"},{"start":28896.57,"end":28898.57,"text":"我就參與相關的兒少法制的一個修法"},{"start":28898.57,"end":28900.57,"text":"我就希望提升兒少的權益"},{"start":28900.57,"end":28902.57,"text":"因為你法制是第一步"},{"start":28902.57,"end":28904.57,"text":"你沒有法律就沒有依循"},{"start":28904.57,"end":28906.57,"text":"就談不到後面"},{"start":28906.57,"end":28908.57,"text":"所以我就相當積極的投入兒少"},{"start":28908.57,"end":28910.57,"text":"那到監委這個"},{"start":28910.57,"end":28912.57,"text":"監委這個任內的時候"},{"start":28912.57,"end":28914.57,"text":"其實我辦理的也是不只是"},{"start":28914.57,"end":28916.57,"text":"一個單一的個案"},{"start":28916.57,"end":28918.57,"text":"包括我辦理的凱凱案"},{"start":28918.57,"end":28920.57,"text":"我每次提我想這是非常令人痛心的一個部分"},{"start":28920.57,"end":28922.57,"text":"再者是"},{"start":28922.57,"end":28924.57,"text":"系列性的一個案件"},{"start":28924.57,"end":28926.57,"text":"所以在裡面委員您剛才提到的就是說"},{"start":28926.57,"end":28928.57,"text":"其實已經我們看到了"},{"start":28928.57,"end":28930.57,"text":"我辦完一個個案"},{"start":28930.57,"end":28932.57,"text":"或者系列個案或其他案件"},{"start":28932.57,"end":28934.57,"text":"其實我會自己整體性在思考"},{"start":28934.57,"end":28936.57,"text":"其實是"},{"start":28936.57,"end":28938.57,"text":"因為個案有個案的面向"},{"start":28938.57,"end":28940.57,"text":"但是當你看了這麼多案件的時候"},{"start":28940.57,"end":28942.57,"text":"你必須要去思考"},{"start":28942.57,"end":28944.57,"text":"接下來"},{"start":28944.57,"end":28946.57,"text":"這些為師要怎麼處理的問題"},{"start":28946.57,"end":28948.57,"text":"包括我前面也提到"},{"start":28948.57,"end":28950.57,"text":"像社安網就是幾個服務體系"},{"start":28952.94,"end":28954.94,"text":"一個事件的發生"},{"start":28954.94,"end":28956.94,"text":"就建了一個服務體系"},{"start":28956.94,"end":28958.94,"text":"可是三個服務體系之下"},{"start":28958.94,"end":28960.94,"text":"竟然還發生兒虐致死"},{"start":28960.94,"end":28962.94,"text":"這問題在哪裡"},{"start":28962.68,"end":28964.68,"text":"所以我們常說一組則多協力"},{"start":28964.68,"end":28966.68,"text":"是沒有被落實的"},{"start":28966.68,"end":28968.68,"text":"還有訪視還有風險的預警"},{"start":28968.68,"end":28970.68,"text":"或者是從整個通報調查處"},{"start":28970.68,"end":28972.68,"text":"機查"},{"start":28972.68,"end":28974.68,"text":"等等的部分"},{"start":28974.68,"end":28976.68,"text":"這些為師都賴行政機關"},{"start":28976.68,"end":28978.68,"text":"一定要針對"},{"start":28978.68,"end":28980.68,"text":"這些為師"},{"start":28980.68,"end":28982.68,"text":"有問題發生了我們是遺憾至極"},{"start":28982.68,"end":28984.68,"text":"但是你問題發生了"},{"start":28984.68,"end":28986.68,"text":"你一定要改啊"},{"start":28986.68,"end":28988.68,"text":"我跟您一定要下面一個"},{"start":28988.68,"end":28990.68,"text":"過去我們確實在監察院發揮一定的功能"},{"start":28990.68,"end":28992.68,"text":"有一些監察的成果"},{"start":28992.68,"end":28994.68,"text":"監察的成果要怎麼樣轉化成制度性的預防"},{"start":28994.68,"end":28996.68,"text":"這個部分"},{"start":28996.68,"end":28998.68,"text":"我們就有後續的"},{"start":28998.68,"end":29000.68,"text":"我們叫核簽的追蹤"},{"start":29000.68,"end":29002.68,"text":"也就是說"},{"start":29002.68,"end":29004.68,"text":"我們現在發現了這樣的為師"},{"start":29004.68,"end":29006.68,"text":"提出調查報告了"},{"start":29006.68,"end":29008.68,"text":"行政機關你的行政改革"},{"start":29008.68,"end":29010.68,"text":"或者牽涉到法律的修正"},{"start":29010.68,"end":29012.68,"text":"是什麼"},{"start":29012.68,"end":29014.68,"text":"假設你沒有改善的話"},{"start":29014.68,"end":29016.68,"text":"監察院是可以進行質問的"},{"start":29016.68,"end":29018.68,"text":"這是有個質問程序"},{"start":29018.68,"end":29020.68,"text":"我們現在比較沒有"},{"start":29020.68,"end":29022.68,"text":"聽到這樣的一個程序"},{"start":29022.68,"end":29024.68,"text":"提出質問"},{"start":29024.68,"end":29026.68,"text":"對這個機關提出質問"},{"start":29026.68,"end":29028.68,"text":"那如果說質問還不改善"},{"st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所談的還是這些"},{"start":29225.41,"end":29227.41,"text":"我們已經在處理後續的這些"},{"start":29227.41,"end":29229.41,"text":"糾正彈劾的相關問題"},{"start":29229.41,"end":29231.41,"text":"但是事實上人民的懲刑"},{"start":29231.41,"end":29233.41,"text":"會變成你完全你沒有"},{"start":29233.41,"end":29235.41,"text":"懲刑就會"},{"start":29235.41,"end":29237.41,"text":"我們高達百分之九十幾的案件"},{"start":29237.41,"end":29239.41,"text":"都是來自於人民的懲刑"},{"start":29239.41,"end":29241.41,"text":"人民何故呢"},{"start":29241.41,"end":29243.41,"text":"為什麼人民的權益是可以被判決到"},{"start":29243.41,"end":29245.41,"text":"事實上如果監察院因為人是同意"},{"start":29245.41,"end":29247.41,"text":"選被癱瘓的話"},{"start":29247.41,"end":29249.41,"text":"他真正受到最大的損害是人民的權益"},{"start":29249.41,"end":29251.41,"text":"而且四至六三二"},{"start":29251.41,"end":29253.41,"text":"就是說"},{"start":29253.41,"end":29255.41,"text":"監察院身為核心機關"},{"start":29255.41,"end":29257.41,"text":"運作必須是實質的"},{"start":29257.41,"end":29259.41,"text":"存續跟正常運行"},{"start":29259.41,"end":29261.41,"text":"就是委員您剛剛提到的"},{"start":29261.41,"end":29263.41,"text":"不算的砍掉"},{"start":29263.41,"end":29265.41,"text":"那就是讓他實質不能運作"},{"start":29265.41,"end":29267.41,"text":"這是有違反事件的關係"},{"start":29267.41,"end":29269.41,"text":"這事件要到"},{"start":29269.41,"end":29271.41,"text":"整體而言我覺得張醫師過去六年"},{"start":29271.41,"end":29273.41,"text":"表現是值得我們高度肯定"},{"start":29273.41,"end":29275.41,"text":"我們也期待說這個"},{"start":29275.41,"end":29277.41,"text":"張醫師如果能夠獲得立法院的"},{"start":29277.41,"end":29279.41,"text":"同意續任"},{"start":29279.41,"end":29281.41,"text":"我們能夠繼續延續過去六年的"},{"start":29281.41,"end":29283.41,"text":"實務經驗跟人權的視野"},{"start":29283.41,"end":29285.41,"text":"能夠讓監察權能夠繼續"},{"start":29285.41,"end":29287.41,"text":"強化下去"},{"start":29287.41,"end":29289.41,"text":"謝謝您"},{"start":29289.34,"end":29291.34,"text":"好謝謝沈委員"},{"start":29292.08,"end":29294.08,"text":"謝謝被提名人"},{"start":29294.08,"end":29296.08,"text":"包括全體委員會"},{"start":29296.43,"end":29298.43,"text":"對監察委員被提名人"},{"start":29298.43,"end":29300.43,"text":"張菊芳詢答部分到此為止"},{"start":29300.43,"end":29302.43,"text":"謝謝張被提名人"},{"start":29302.43,"end":29304.43,"text":"列席答詢"},{"start":29304.43,"end":29306.43,"text":"報告全院委員會休息五分鐘"},{"start":29306.43,"end":29308.43,"text":"休息之後"},{"start":29308.43,"end":29310.43,"text":"進行對監察委員被提名人"},{"start":29310.43,"end":29312.43,"text":"張豐義之詢問"},{"start":29312.43,"end":29314.43,"text":"現在休息"},{"start":29626.29,"end":29628.29,"text":"報告全院委員會現在繼續開會"},{"start":29628.29,"end":29634.29,"text":"審查監察委員被提名人張豐義之資格相關事項"},{"start":29634.29,"end":29638.29,"text":"請被提名人張豐義先生說明時間為五分鐘"},{"start":29649.15,"end":29651.15,"text":"主席各位委員"},{"start":29651.15,"end":29653.15,"text":"各位女士各位先生大家好"},{"start":29654.15,"end":29656.15,"text":"本人陳萌總統賴清德"},{"start":29656.15,"end":29660.15,"text":"以憲法提名擔任第七屆監察委員"},{"start":29660.31,"end":29662.31,"text":"並為國家人權委員會委員"},{"start":29662.75,"end":29664.75,"text":"今天來到立法院"},{"start":29664.75,"end":29668.75,"text":"接受立法委員秉持憲法賦予的職責進行審查"},{"start":29668.75,"end":29670.75,"text":"作為刑事同意權的依據"},{"start":29670.75,"end":29672.75,"text":"深感責任重大"},{"start":29674.09,"end":29676.09,"text":"立法院在2009年"},{"start":29676.09,"end":29678.09,"text":"三讀通過了聯合國的"},{"start":29679.95,"end":29681.95,"text":"公民與政治權利國際公約"},{"start":29681.95,"end":29685.95,"text":"與經濟社會文化權利國際公約"},{"start":29685.95,"end":29689.95,"text":"也一併通過了上述兩公約實施法"},{"start":29689.95,"end":29691.95,"text":"將國際人權公約國內法化"},{"start":29691.95,"end":29695.95,"text":"這是標示了台灣與人權立國的第一步"},{"start":29696.61,"end":29700.61,"text":"那我們知道1991年聯合國人權委員會"},{"start":29700.61,"end":29702.61,"text":"在巴黎舉行"},{"start":29702.78,"end":29706.78,"text":"他在會議確立了關於促進和保護人權的"},{"start":29706.78,"end":29709.78,"text":"國家機構地位的原則"},{"start":29709.78,"end":29711.78,"text":"也就是簡稱的巴黎原則"},{"start":29711.78,"end":29715.78,"text":"該原則在1993年聯合國大會通過"},{"start":29715.78,"end":29720.78,"text":"以鼓勵、倡議及協議各國設置國家人權機構"},{"start":29720.78,"end":29722.78,"text":"並要求國家人權機構"},{"start":29722.78,"end":29726.78,"text":"應具備以國際人權標準行使的廣泛職權"},{"start":29726.78,"end":29729.78,"text":"及獨立性多元性足夠的資源"},{"start":29729.78,"end":29731.78,"text":"以及充分的調查權"},{"start":29731.78,"end":29734.78,"text":"立法院也在2019年"},{"start":29734.78,"end":29738.78,"text":"三讀通過監察院國家人權委員會組織法"},{"start":29738.78,"end":29741.78,"text":"依據聯合國的巴黎公約"},{"start":29741.78,"end":29743.78,"text":"成立國家人權委員會"},{"start":29743.78,"end":29746.78,"text":"以落實相關國際人權公約的規範"},{"start":29746.78,"end":29749.78,"text":"並且推展人權觀念與教育"},{"start":29750.44,"end":29754.44,"text":"國家人權委員會的草創初期百廢待舉"},{"start":29755.14,"end":29759.14,"text":"在第一屆的國家人權委員會的委員的努力之下"},{"start":29759.14,"end":29760.14,"text":"將"},{"start":29760.27,"end":29762.27,"text":"人權委員會的人事與運作"},{"start":29763.28,"end":29767.28,"text":"組織運作、磨合、逐漸步入軌道,功不可沒"},{"start":29767.28,"end":29772.28,"text":"第一屆的國家人權委員也在任期結束前"},{"start":29772.28,"end":29777.28,"text":"公開提出了國家人權委員會對於台灣國家人權機構"},{"start":29777.28,"end":29779.28,"text":"未來發展之意見書"},{"start":29779.28,"end":29784.28,"text":"提檢了這六年來國家人權委員會的運作的局限"},{"start":29784.28,"end":29787.28,"text":"並提出了依加速內部"},{"start":29788.42,"end":29792.42,"text":"運作改革二,逐步推動成立獨立機關"},{"start":29792.42,"end":29795.42,"text":"這兩大改革方向的建議"},{"start":29795.42,"end":29797.42,"text":"本人深感欽佩"},{"start":29797.42,"end":29802.42,"text":"國家人權委員會在邁向第二屆人權委員任期之際"},{"start":29803.24,"end":29805.24,"text":"將面臨更大的挑戰"},{"start":29805.24,"end":29806.24,"text":"特別是"},{"start":29806.9,"end":29809.9,"text":"全球的貿易從過去的自由貿易"},{"start":29809.9,"end":29812.9,"text":"逐漸轉變成公平貿易"},{"start":29812.9,"end":29816.9,"text":"而台灣長期以出國導向的經濟體"},{"start":29816.9,"end":29820.9,"text":"並在全球供應鏈中扮演重要的角色"},{"start":29820.9,"end":29823.9,"text":"國際商品貿易與勞動人權標準"},{"start":29823.9,"end":29825.9,"text":"逐漸的緊密配合"},{"start":29827.3,"end":29829.3,"text":"我們都知道2020年"},{"start":29829.95,"end":29833.95,"text":"行政院首度公布的企業與人權國家行動計畫"},{"start":29833.95,"end":29838.95,"text":"依據聯合國工商企業及人權指導原則的規範與精神"},{"start":29839.64,"end":29842.64,"text":"就企業營運有關的人權保障事項"},{"start":29842.64,"end":29845.64,"text":"提出未來性的重點方向與措施"},{"start":29845.64,"end":29849.64,"text":"是亞洲第二個提出這個國家行動計畫的國家"},{"start":29850.47,"end":29853.47,"text":"而第一屆的國家人權委員會"},{"start":29853.47,"end":29855.47,"text":"也在2025年"},{"start":29855.47,"end":29859.47,"text":"針對前述的國家行動計畫的更新版"},{"start":29859.47,"end":29862.47,"text":"提出了相關的建議"},{"start":29863.14,"end":29869.14,"text":"我們可以看到以近期美國針對全球60個經濟體"},{"start":29869.14,"end":29874.14,"text":"進行的強迫勞動301條款的調查為例"},{"start":29874.14,"end":29877.14,"text":"雖然最後我國因為"},{"start":29877.54,"end":29879.54,"text":"禁止強迫勞動的行政承諾"},{"start":29879.54,"end":29881.54,"text":"而獲得美方的諒解"},{"start":29881.54,"end":29884.54,"text":"那取得了10%不疊加"},{"start":29884.54,"end":29887.54,"text":"較其他國家優惠的關稅待遇"},{"start":29888.68,"end":29892.68,"text":"不過從這個事件我們已經可以看出"},{"start":29892.68,"end":29894.68,"text":"國際勞動人權的保障"},{"start":29894.68,"end":29899.68,"text":"已經成為影響台灣經濟發展的重要因素"},{"start":29900.78,"end":29906.78,"text":"而國家人權委員會的存在正是台灣面對的"},{"start":29907.48,"end":29913.48,"text":"國際貿易與人權標準正逐漸的密切扣合之際呢"},{"start":29913.82,"end":29918.82,"text":"他具備的最具關鍵地位的國家人權推動的一個樞紐"},{"start":29919.83,"end":29925.83,"text":"所以如果本人有幸擔任第二屆的國家人權委員會委員"},{"start":29925.83,"end":29931.83,"text":"自當對於國際勞動人權與國內法治與行政措施的契合"},{"start":29931.83,"end":29933.83,"text":"全力投入倡議與改革"},{"start":29933.83,"end":29937.83,"text":"這不僅保障台灣勞工的勞動人權"},{"start":29937.83,"end":29940.83,"text":"更是台灣產業與經濟擺脫過去"},{"start":29940.83,"end":29944.83,"text":"血和經濟模式冒向勞資共好"},{"start":29944.83,"end":29947.83,"text":"環境共善的經濟模式的開始"},{"start":29947.83,"end":29948.83,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":29950.74,"end":29951.74,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":29951.74,"end":29953.74,"text":"謝謝張蓓廷明人"},{"start":29957.61,"end":29960.61,"text":"現在進行委員詢問"},{"start":29960.61,"end":29962.61,"text":"首先請徐委員中信詢問"},{"start":29977.52,"end":29982.52,"text":"主席 我們有請勞動人權鬥士張豐一"},{"start":29982.52,"end":29984.52,"text":"請張蓓廷明人"},{"start":29990.01,"end":29991.01,"text":"張多士好"},{"start":29991.28,"end":29993.28,"text":"不敢當"},{"start":29993.28,"end":29994.28,"text":"天主"},{"start":29994.48,"end":29996.48,"text":"在德文這是一個鬥士"},{"start":29997.76,"end":29999.76,"text":"所以我對您非常的敬重"},{"start":30001.57,"end":30004.57,"text":"在我的印象當中您就是長期"},{"start":30005.01,"end":30007.01,"text":"為台灣的勞動人權"},{"start":30007.9,"end":30008.9,"text":"來 碰到"},{"start":30009.57,"end":30011.57,"text":"我沒有看過你哭笑"},{"start":30012.89,"end":30014.89,"text":"希望我今天對您的詢問"},{"start":30015.81,"end":30017.81,"text":"我會讓你哭笑不得"},{"start":30019.09,"end":30020.09,"text":"首先"},{"start":30020.47,"end":30022.47,"text":"我先講哭的部分"},{"start":30023.63,"end":30029.63,"text":"您的報告裡面提到我們台灣在國際貿易跟勞動人權的改善"},{"start":30030.92,"end":30032.92,"text":"我們國際貿易的競爭力"},{"start":30033.89,"end":30034.89,"text":"當然有很多因素"},{"start":30035.61,"end":30036.61,"text":"我們主席 議員"},{"start":30037.13,"end":30038.13,"text":"會長清楚"},{"start":30039.42,"end":30040.42,"text":"但是台糖土地"},{"start":30041.53,"end":30045.53,"text":"提供給我們比較便宜的用地成本"},{"start":30046.07,"end":30049.07,"text":"是我們的競爭力的原因之一"},{"start":30050.44,"end":30052.44,"text":"那我們台糖土地"},{"start":30053.83,"end":30054.83,"text":"可以分成兩大類"},{"start":30056.01,"end":30058.01,"text":"一大類就是我們的皮糖乾河"},{"start":30059.01,"end":30060.01,"text":"或是海埔新生地"},{"start":30061.56,"end":30062.56,"text":"另外一大類"},{"start":30064.83,"end":30065.83,"text":"它怎麼來"},{"start":30067.99,"end":30069.99,"text":"日本人1895年來"},{"start":30071.5,"end":30072.5,"text":"看到它所繼承"},{"start":30073.78,"end":30075.78,"text":"的青代觀察"},{"start":30076.48,"end":30078.48,"text":"竟然在雲林以南"},{"start":30079.47,"end":30081.47,"text":"有這麼多的觀友地"},{"start":30083.28,"end":30085.28,"text":"所以日本人那時候"},{"start":30086.35,"end":30089.35,"text":"就想辦法要來善用這些觀友地"},{"start":30090.94,"end":30092.94,"text":"所以成立第一家"},{"start":30093.79,"end":30095.79,"text":"台灣SET"},{"start":30095.79,"end":30096.79,"text":"核心機 看一下"},{"start":30098.69,"end":30099.69,"text":"台灣治糖"},{"start":30100.36,"end":30101.36,"text":"祝福會勝"},{"start":30102.18,"end":30103.18,"text":"它的土地"},{"start":30104.15,"end":30106.15,"text":"就是從青代繼承下來"},{"start":30107.11,"end":30108.11,"text":"成立台糖"},{"start":30109.38,"end":30110.38,"text":"而台糖這些"},{"start":30111.17,"end":30113.17,"text":"土地裡面會被賤賣的"},{"start":30115.32,"end":30116.32,"text":"就是好的土地"},{"start":30117.37,"end":30118.37,"text":"它的來源"},{"start":30118.92,"end":30119.92,"text":"您知道它是怎麼來"},{"start":30122.56,"end":30124.56,"text":"如果無來人知道這些土地的來源"},{"start":30126.46,"end":30128.46,"text":"今天這個錢不敢吞下去"},{"start":30129.69,"end":30130.69,"text":"絕對要脫衣服回來"},{"start":30132.42,"end":30134.42,"text":"這是我們台灣宣傳"},{"start":30135.59,"end":30137.59,"text":"三百多年來"},{"start":30137.95,"end":30138.95,"text":"三一一消化"},{"start":30140.32,"end":30141.32,"text":"狗年一大換"},{"start":30143.02,"end":30144.02,"text":"祝Q祝"},{"start":30148.94,"end":30149.94,"text":"青代觀察"},{"start":30151.93,"end":30152.93,"text":"所以狗來人"},{"start":30154.1,"end":30155.1,"text":"你敢吃這個"},{"start":30156.04,"end":30158.04,"text":"賤賣台糖土地的錢"},{"start":30159.6,"end":30160.6,"text":"你別吊"},{"start":30162.3,"end":30164.3,"text":"哇 說到這個故事"},{"start":30164.72,"end":30165.72,"text":"我更要吃"},{"start":30167.05,"end":30168.05,"text":"我們用藍卡來看"},{"start":30170,"end":30172,"text":"我的外祖藍卡就40到第1首歌"},{"start":30174.42,"end":30175.42,"text":"藍卡的土地"},{"start":30177.07,"end":30178.07,"text":"一QQ囉"},{"start":30178.07,"end":30179.07,"text":"你吃藍卡"},{"start":30180.02,"end":30182.02,"text":"我來藍卡我給你吃藍"},{"start":30182.84,"end":30183.84,"text":"來對我誇賽一"},{"start":30184.88,"end":30185.88,"text":"誇賽一"},{"start":30188.39,"end":30189.39,"text":"很多都對"},{"start":30191.28,"end":30192.28,"text":"土地都對著"},{"start":30192.28,"end":30194.28,"text":"拔殺萬世的中軍"},{"start":30195.6,"end":30197.6,"text":"太陽太陽中軍"},{"start":30199.33,"end":30201.33,"text":"狗來人你敢吃這個錢"},{"start":30203.38,"end":30205.38,"text":"我為了你好你還要快吐回來"},{"start":30207.43,"end":30208.43,"text":"媽的 別吼"},{"start":30210.74,"end":30212.74,"text":"這個是讓我很難過的地方"},{"start":30213.94,"end":30214.94,"text":"我們藍卡率先告"},{"start":30217.25,"end":30218.25,"text":"藍卡"},{"start":30219.66,"end":30220.66,"text":"比較高位階的"},{"start":30221.62,"end":30222.62,"text":"技術人員"},{"start":30223.27,"end":30224.27,"text":"虧錢對歌勇"},{"start":30225.42,"end":30227.42,"text":"對大南虎社來我們新市吃頭肉"},{"start":30228.66,"end":30230.66,"text":"他沒要帶我們新市護肩"},{"start":30230.66,"end":30231.66,"text":"環境不好"},{"start":30232.89,"end":30234.89,"text":"台南附近各鄉鎮"},{"start":30235.14,"end":30236.14,"text":"到藍卡來上班的"},{"start":30237.2,"end":30240.2,"text":"勞工完全仰賴機車"},{"start":30241.63,"end":30244.63,"text":"因為公共設施真的很不足"},{"start":30246.54,"end":30247.54,"text":"機車"},{"start":30247.64,"end":30249.64,"text":"這是在美國這種礦也可以起"},{"start":30250.97,"end":30252.97,"text":"在台灣這種人口密集的地方"},{"start":30254.61,"end":30255.61,"text":"非常危險"},{"start":30256.15,"end":30258.15,"text":"所以我幾乎在成大教書"},{"start":30258.86,"end":30261.86,"text":"每天出門都會看到機車的車禍"},{"start":30262.85,"end":30264.85,"text":"請問這個有勞動人權"},{"start":30267.06,"end":30268.06,"text":"請問這個有勞動人權"},{"start":30269.97,"end":30273.97,"text":"勞工因為上下班"},{"start":30275.81,"end":30278.81,"text":"造成的如果有通勤的直篩這個問題"},{"start":30278.81,"end":30282.81,"text":"其實在台灣按照勞動的統計"},{"start":30282.81,"end":30285.81,"text":"在過去這一二十年"},{"start":30285.81,"end":30286.81,"text":"他沒有太大的改變"},{"start":30286.81,"end":30288.81,"text":"就是因為上下班通勤"},{"start":30288.81,"end":30291.81,"text":"而造成的直篩死亡人數"},{"start":30291.81,"end":30293.81,"text":"我前一陣子才做過這個統計"},{"start":30294.96,"end":30298.96,"text":"他大概每一年過去二三十年"},{"start":30298.96,"end":30300.96,"text":"大概每一年都三百人左右"},{"start":30300.96,"end":30301.96,"text":"死亡"},{"start":30301.96,"end":30302.96,"text":"台灣是第一對不對"},{"start":30302.96,"end":30305.96,"text":"上下班通勤還有執行職務的"},{"start":30308.24,"end":30313.24,"text":"所以這個問題確實是勞工因為上下班"},{"start":30313.24,"end":30316.24,"text":"然後造成的通勤的直篩的問題"},{"start":30316.24,"end":30319.24,"text":"確實大眾運輸的發展"},{"start":30319.24,"end":30321.24,"text":"我們知道大眾運輸的發展"},{"start":30321.24,"end":30325.24,"text":"可能可以有效的來抑制這樣子的事情發生"},{"start":30325.24,"end":30328.24,"text":"但是我們知道除了這個"},{"start":30328.24,"end":30331.24,"text":"大台北地區或高雄以外"},{"start":30331.24,"end":30333.24,"text":"其實台灣其他的地方的"},{"start":30334.24,"end":30337.24,"text":"所謂的公共運輸發展還是不夠"},{"start":30337.24,"end":30340.24,"text":"造成勞工必須要用這個機制"},{"start":30341.55,"end":30343.55,"text":"死亡率"},{"start":30345.38,"end":30346.38,"text":"他的原因"},{"start":30346.56,"end":30348.56,"text":"很明顯可以看得出來"},{"start":30348.56,"end":30350.56,"text":"所以公共建設非常的重要"},{"start":30350.82,"end":30352.82,"text":"所以您點出我要講的"},{"start":30353.85,"end":30354.85,"text":"笑"},{"start":30355.41,"end":30357.41,"text":"您聽到這個故事不要笑"},{"start":30358.97,"end":30360.97,"text":"我有一次在台北有活動"},{"start":30360.97,"end":30362.97,"text":"搭最後一班高鐵回台南"},{"start":30363.66,"end":30364.66,"text":"已經沒有接駁車"},{"start":30365.77,"end":30367.77,"text":"這麼晚我也不想打擾我的助理"},{"start":30368.96,"end":30370.96,"text":"所以我就叫了計程車"},{"start":30370.96,"end":30372.96,"text":"從台南沙侖要回新市"},{"start":30374.15,"end":30376.15,"text":"我已經跟他講的是新市"},{"start":30376.7,"end":30379.7,"text":"結果計程車一直跳跳跳跳到新化"},{"start":30380.79,"end":30382.79,"text":"到新市跟新化的交界"},{"start":30382.79,"end":30384.79,"text":"已經到700塊"},{"start":30385.8,"end":30387.8,"text":"我跟司機講說"},{"start":30387.8,"end":30389.8,"text":"先去搞啊"},{"start":30389.8,"end":30390.8,"text":"真的是到了"},{"start":30391.37,"end":30393.37,"text":"我下車走路40分鐘"},{"start":30394.49,"end":30395.49,"text":"走到我家"},{"start":30395.49,"end":30397.49,"text":"你就笑了對不對"},{"start":30397.63,"end":30398.63,"text":"這是真實的故事"},{"start":30399.94,"end":30400.94,"text":"這是真實的故事"},{"start":30401.74,"end":30404.74,"text":"這個高鐵站設在沙侖"},{"start":30405.37,"end":30408.37,"text":"本來是在新市火車站"},{"start":30409.08,"end":30411.08,"text":"要跟台鐵共共"},{"start":30412.12,"end":30414.12,"text":"如果這樣對南科的發展"},{"start":30414.12,"end":30416.12,"text":"更有國際貿易競爭力"},{"start":30416.12,"end":30418.12,"text":"台南人才真的有高鐵"},{"start":30419.43,"end":30423.43,"text":"但是當時因為有政治人物炒作地皮"},{"start":30423.43,"end":30426.43,"text":"要炒作沙侖附近的墳墓"},{"start":30426.94,"end":30429.94,"text":"硬把高鐵站拉到沙侖"},{"start":30429.94,"end":30434.94,"text":"所以使得台南人現在到台北是最耗時的"},{"start":30437.81,"end":30439.81,"text":"屏東你搭火車到左沿"},{"start":30439.81,"end":30441.81,"text":"一下子一個半小時就到台北"},{"start":30442.38,"end":30444.38,"text":"而我們台南人現在沒有高鐵"},{"start":30445.26,"end":30446.26,"text":"這個原因"},{"start":30447.71,"end":30448.71,"text":"何在"},{"start":30449.83,"end":30450.83,"text":"我非常感佩委員"},{"start":30450.83,"end":30457.83,"text":"對於這種非都會區人民的運輸上的權利"},{"start":30457.83,"end":30460.83,"text":"那我們知道移動人權"},{"start":30460.83,"end":30467.83,"text":"事實上也是現在新興的人權的標準走向"},{"start":30467.83,"end":30468.83,"text":"所以移動人權"},{"start":30468.83,"end":30469.83,"text":"因為我們知道"},{"start":30470.31,"end":30473.31,"text":"我們即使有非常多的政府相關的資源"},{"start":30473.31,"end":30475.31,"text":"不管是醫療還是社福資源"},{"start":30475.31,"end":30478.31,"text":"如果你這個移動上沒有辦法去達到的話"},{"start":30478.31,"end":30480.31,"text":"他的可近性很低的時候"},{"start":30480.31,"end":30484.31,"text":"那譬如說你這些醫院可近性很低的話"},{"start":30484.31,"end":30488.31,"text":"那也沒有辦法達到他的醫療效果"},{"start":30488.31,"end":30492.31,"text":"所以我們台灣這個非都會區的人民"},{"start":30492.31,"end":30493.31,"text":"所以台港土地"},{"start":30494.29,"end":30495.29,"text":"不只被賤賣"},{"start":30496.58,"end":30497.58,"text":"還被浪費"},{"start":30498.2,"end":30500.2,"text":"台港土地成立難科"},{"start":30500.2,"end":30505.2,"text":"如果高鐵站如原來的設計在新式火車站"},{"start":30506.69,"end":30507.69,"text":"跟台鐵共過"},{"start":30507.69,"end":30511.69,"text":"我們台南現在的競爭力不是現在而已"},{"start":30512.06,"end":30514.06,"text":"而當時被政治人物"},{"start":30516.34,"end":30518.34,"text":"集體把他拉到"},{"start":30519.03,"end":30520.03,"text":"殺人"},{"start":30520.03,"end":30524.03,"text":"而我們新式組成一個自救會"},{"start":30524.03,"end":30527.03,"text":"但是新式因為諸一貴事件"},{"start":30527.03,"end":30528.03,"text":"先民被屠殺"},{"start":30528.03,"end":30530.03,"text":"所以人口非常稀少"},{"start":30530.99,"end":30532.99,"text":"日本人來調查人口"},{"start":30532.99,"end":30535.99,"text":"新式的人口只贏南化跟農旗"},{"start":30535.99,"end":30538.99,"text":"所以我們只能選出一個縣議員"},{"start":30540.25,"end":30542.25,"text":"縣議員保不住這個高鐵站"},{"start":30543.33,"end":30545.33,"text":"我是新式第一個立法委員"},{"start":30545.33,"end":30547.33,"text":"但是that is too late"},{"start":30547.75,"end":30548.75,"text":"太慢了"},{"start":30549,"end":30552,"text":"所以您如果成為監察委員"},{"start":30552.47,"end":30555.47,"text":"要不要去調查該弊案"},{"start":30555.47,"end":30556.47,"text":"是誰"},{"start":30557.15,"end":30561.15,"text":"強把高鐵站從新式拉到殺人"},{"start":30561.15,"end":30564.15,"text":"加以懲案加以調查"},{"start":30564.15,"end":30566.15,"text":"給我台南人一個高鐵站"},{"start":30567.37,"end":30568.37,"text":"一個真相"},{"start":30569.25,"end":30571.25,"text":"一個公平的對立"},{"start":30572.67,"end":30574.67,"text":"我想如果委員"},{"start":30574.67,"end":30577.67,"text":"因為委員也是代表龐大的名義"},{"start":30577.67,"end":30581.67,"text":"委員如果檢具相關的事證的話"},{"start":30581.67,"end":30583.67,"text":"我想監察委員"},{"start":30583.67,"end":30585.67,"text":"面對各式各樣民眾的審判"},{"start":30585.67,"end":30588.67,"text":"我們都會非常嚴肅的立案來調查"},{"start":30588.67,"end":30590.67,"text":"我們一起來努力"},{"start":30590.67,"end":30592.67,"text":"特別是這種剛才委員說到的"},{"start":30592.67,"end":30595.67,"text":"這個涉及到交通這種偏見"},{"start":30597.73,"end":30598.73,"text":"好"},{"start":30598.61,"end":30600.61,"text":"謝謝徐若嫣"},{"start":30600.94,"end":30603.94,"text":"下一位請郭國文委員詢問"},{"start":30621.42,"end":30622.42,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":30622.42,"end":30623.42,"text":"有請貝提明人"},{"start":30623.42,"end":30626.42,"text":"我們請當貝提明人"},{"start":30635.63,"end":30636.63,"text":"鳳雲恭喜"},{"start":30636.63,"end":30638.63,"text":"過去你在勞工運動的一個努力"},{"start":30638.63,"end":30640.63,"text":"獲得賴總統的肯定"},{"start":30640.63,"end":30642.63,"text":"我相信這是被提名的主要原因"},{"start":30642.63,"end":30644.63,"text":"但我也看了您的這個"},{"start":30644.63,"end":30646.63,"text":"自傳相關的內容當中"},{"start":30646.63,"end":30649.63,"text":"你有體會到進入體制的行政的相關改革"},{"start":30649.63,"end":30651.63,"text":"其實相當的不容易"},{"start":30651.63,"end":30654.63,"text":"必須協調這個折衝各方"},{"start":30654.63,"end":30656.63,"text":"當然你也特別提到"},{"start":30656.63,"end":30659.63,"text":"制度性的改革才能系統化的解決"},{"start":30659.63,"end":30660.63,"text":"個案的問題"},{"start":30660.63,"end":30663.63,"text":"我相信你已經有進入體制的這個準備"},{"start":30663.63,"end":30666.63,"text":"不過現階段的一些勞動型態"},{"start":30666.63,"end":30668.63,"text":"還有整個經濟環境"},{"start":30668.63,"end":30670.63,"text":"我想說也要就教你"},{"start":30670.63,"end":30673.63,"text":"在被提名後的看法是如何"},{"start":30673.63,"end":30676.63,"text":"特別是現在越來越凸顯的K型經濟當中"},{"start":30676.63,"end":30679.63,"text":"我們現在台灣的經濟確實是非常非常的特別"},{"start":30679.63,"end":30680.63,"text":"一是低通膨"},{"start":30680.63,"end":30682.63,"text":"二是低失業率"},{"start":30682.63,"end":30684.63,"text":"三缺工非常嚴重"},{"start":30684.63,"end":30685.63,"text":"四最關鍵的問題"},{"start":30685.63,"end":30687.63,"text":"薪資成長越特別的低"},{"start":30687.63,"end":30689.63,"text":"我想這個問題你也注意到"},{"start":30689.63,"end":30692.63,"text":"特別現在又遇到K型的經濟發展型態"},{"start":30692.63,"end":30694.63,"text":"少數的產業特別的好"},{"start":30694.63,"end":30696.63,"text":"當然少數的薪資也特別的高"},{"start":30696.63,"end":30698.63,"text":"連央行都表示"},{"start":30698.63,"end":30701.63,"text":"過去的一個貨幣政策工具都難以解決"},{"start":30701.63,"end":30704.63,"text":"類似現在的這種困境的情況底下"},{"start":30704.63,"end":30705.63,"text":"譬如講"},{"start":30705.63,"end":30708.63,"text":"昨天主計書才公布了1到6月的薪資統計"},{"start":30708.63,"end":30711.63,"text":"經常性薪資平均是51888"},{"start":30711.63,"end":30715.63,"text":"但中位數的部分只有40985"},{"start":30715.63,"end":30717.63,"text":"而有70%的人的薪資"},{"start":30717.63,"end":30719.63,"text":"是低於這樣的平均數"},{"start":30720.23,"end":30722.23,"text":"這樣的數字理當不應該出現的"},{"start":30722.23,"end":30727.23,"text":"一個人平均的GDP超過4萬美元的一個國家"},{"start":30727.23,"end":30729.23,"text":"經濟成長去年超過8"},{"start":30729.23,"end":30732.23,"text":"而今年預計成長超過10"},{"start":30732.23,"end":30734.23,"text":"類似這樣的經濟型態"},{"start":30734.23,"end":30737.23,"text":"跟勞動的情況"},{"start":30737.23,"end":30739.23,"text":"我想在行政部門當中"},{"start":30739.23,"end":30740.23,"text":"是一個很重要關鍵的角色"},{"start":30740.23,"end":30742.23,"text":"我想請教你的看法"},{"start":30744.14,"end":30747.14,"text":"謝謝國委員的質詢"},{"start":30747.14,"end":30751.14,"text":"國委員這個問題的提問非常的深入"},{"start":30751.14,"end":30754.14,"text":"確實台灣在這個K型經濟下"},{"start":30754.14,"end":30756.14,"text":"如何來照顧這個底層的勞工"},{"start":30756.14,"end":30760.14,"text":"從剛剛委員提到的主計處的"},{"start":30760.14,"end":30762.14,"text":"昨天公布的統計"},{"start":30762.14,"end":30765.14,"text":"事實上為什麼有70%的勞工"},{"start":30765.14,"end":30768.14,"text":"他的薪資是低於這個平均的工資"},{"start":30768.14,"end":30770.14,"text":"你就可以看到就是說"},{"start":30770.14,"end":30772.14,"text":"事實上因為有這個我們台灣的"},{"start":30772.14,"end":30775.14,"text":"半導體產業的高度發展"},{"start":30775.14,"end":30779.14,"text":"所以會讓高薪者他的薪資是大幅提高"},{"start":30779.14,"end":30782.14,"text":"所以整個大家知道平均薪資"},{"start":30782.14,"end":30785.14,"text":"所以平均下來那個平均薪資就會高很多"},{"start":30785.14,"end":30787.14,"text":"那另外一方面"},{"start":30787.14,"end":30791.14,"text":"我們的這個所謂的比較低薪的"},{"start":30791.14,"end":30794.14,"text":"非典勞工的這個部分"},{"start":30794.14,"end":30797.14,"text":"他的人數在擴充當中"},{"start":30797.14,"end":30800.14,"text":"所以怎麼樣來解決這個問題"},{"start":30800.14,"end":30803.14,"text":"首先就是要對於我們這個"},{"start":30803.14,"end":30805.14,"text":"非典勞工的部分"},{"start":30805.14,"end":30808.14,"text":"需要有做一個比較多的保障"},{"start":30808.14,"end":30810.14,"text":"讓我們知道"},{"start":30810.46,"end":30812.46,"text":"好"},{"start":30811.33,"end":30812.33,"text":"第一個"},{"start":30812.33,"end":30814.33,"text":"比如說在前一陣子立法院"},{"start":30814.33,"end":30816.33,"text":"通過有關外送員專法"},{"start":30816.33,"end":30819.33,"text":"這一個我們大概台灣現在外送員"},{"start":30819.33,"end":30821.33,"text":"應該"},{"start":30820.11,"end":30822.11,"text":"大概有15到20萬人之間"},{"start":30822.11,"end":30825.11,"text":"那讓他們的權益有一個基本的保障"},{"start":30825.11,"end":30826.11,"text":"那也通過了"},{"start":30826.11,"end":30828.11,"text":"那未來這個法令"},{"start":30828.11,"end":30830.11,"text":"要如何的落實"},{"start":30830.11,"end":30833.11,"text":"那我覺得這也是未來這個"},{"start":30833.11,"end":30836.11,"text":"如果一旦進入監察院的話"},{"start":30836.11,"end":30839.11,"text":"必須要來督促行政機關來執行的"},{"start":30839.11,"end":30842.11,"text":"那另外在非典勞工的部分"},{"start":30842.11,"end":30843.11,"text":"大家都知道"},{"start":30843.11,"end":30845.11,"text":"比如說這個部分工時者"},{"start":30845.11,"end":30848.11,"text":"還有這個派遣勞工"},{"start":30848.11,"end":30850.11,"text":"那這一些人"},{"start":30852.02,"end":30855.02,"text":"怎麼樣來更進一步確保他們的權益"},{"start":30855.02,"end":30858.02,"text":"我覺得這個也是要去"},{"start":30858.02,"end":30860.02,"text":"更進一步來落實"},{"start":30860.02,"end":30862.02,"text":"我們知道這個部分工時者"},{"start":30862.02,"end":30864.02,"text":"在台灣"},{"start":30864.02,"end":30868.02,"text":"像前一陣子有個數十億的"},{"start":30868.02,"end":30870.02,"text":"一個"},{"start":30869.38,"end":30871.38,"text":"職場霸凌的事件"},{"start":30871.38,"end":30872.38,"text":"那我們可以知道就是說"},{"start":30872.38,"end":30875.38,"text":"部分工時者他因為排班"},{"start":30875.38,"end":30878.38,"text":"賦予企業非常多的排班的權利"},{"start":30878.38,"end":30879.38,"text":"所以呢"},{"start":30879.38,"end":30880.38,"text":"造成部分工時者"},{"start":30880.38,"end":30883.38,"text":"他在工時上的排班的高度不穩定"},{"start":30883.38,"end":30887.38,"text":"所以行程也會造成他的收入的不穩定"},{"start":30887.38,"end":30890.38,"text":"我覺得怎麼樣讓這個"},{"start":30890.38,"end":30892.38,"text":"通常從事非典工作的人"},{"start":30892.38,"end":30895.38,"text":"都是希望他工作要有彈性"},{"start":30895.38,"end":30896.38,"text":"但是怎麼樣呢"},{"start":30896.38,"end":30898.38,"text":"讓他有彈性又有保障"},{"start":30898.38,"end":30900.38,"text":"不管是工作權的保障"},{"start":30900.38,"end":30902.38,"text":"還是薪資的保障"},{"start":30902.38,"end":30905.38,"text":"我覺得這個在法律面制度面"},{"start":30905.38,"end":30908.38,"text":"都要再進一步來改革的"},{"start":30908.38,"end":30910.38,"text":"所以就你觀察K型經濟造型"},{"start":30910.38,"end":30912.38,"text":"K型勞工收入的發展"},{"start":30912.38,"end":30913.38,"text":"高所得的很高"},{"start":30913.38,"end":30916.38,"text":"但低所得是因為非典型的勞動的形態"},{"start":30916.38,"end":30918.38,"text":"而造成相對的低所得"},{"start":30918.38,"end":30920.38,"text":"如果是這種方式的話"},{"start":30920.38,"end":30922.38,"text":"要改變低所得的這個部分"},{"start":30922.38,"end":30923.38,"text":"就要照顧他們的權益"},{"start":30923.38,"end":30925.38,"text":"可以讓平均數可以拉高"},{"start":30925.38,"end":30929.38,"text":"而不是一味的用政府的手段來處理"},{"start":30929.38,"end":30930.38,"text":"既然如此的話"},{"start":30930.38,"end":30931.38,"text":"那我們就來討論一下"},{"start":30931.38,"end":30934.38,"text":"這非典型的勞動僱用要怎麼去"},{"start":30935.01,"end":30936.01,"text":"面對啦"},{"start":30936.01,"end":30937.01,"text":"剛剛你也提到一些啦"},{"start":30937.01,"end":30939.01,"text":"就是說部分公司的部分"},{"start":30939.01,"end":30941.01,"text":"外送平台外送員專法的部分"},{"start":30941.01,"end":30944.01,"text":"確實已經有這個通過"},{"start":30944.01,"end":30946.01,"text":"但是以勞動派遣、勞動承攬"},{"start":30946.01,"end":30948.01,"text":"以及共享經濟的非典型勞動"},{"start":30948.01,"end":30949.01,"text":"確實是人口"},{"start":30949.01,"end":30951.01,"text":"就業人口數是越來越多"},{"start":30951.01,"end":30953.01,"text":"但我們必須去面對一個問題"},{"start":30953.01,"end":30956.01,"text":"過往的整個勞動關係的認定"},{"start":30956.01,"end":30958.01,"text":"都是鎖定在所謂的僱用關係"},{"start":30958.01,"end":30960.01,"text":"即便國家立法的部分"},{"start":30960.01,"end":30962.01,"text":"也是用勞動基準法的概念"},{"start":30962.01,"end":30963.01,"text":"是用僱用關係來處理"},{"start":30963.01,"end":30966.01,"text":"所以透過面對這種非典的勞動型態"},{"start":30966.01,"end":30967.01,"text":"增加的情況底下"},{"start":30967.01,"end":30970.01,"text":"勞動部過去的做法就一直解釋再解釋"},{"start":30970.01,"end":30973.01,"text":"想要把它扣連在一個勞動關係上面來做處理"},{"start":30973.01,"end":30976.01,"text":"顯然解釋還是有它一定幅度的限制"},{"start":30976.01,"end":30977.01,"text":"那另外一種方式呢"},{"start":30977.01,"end":30981.01,"text":"現在有一些立委就是用專法再專法"},{"start":30981.01,"end":30982.01,"text":"從外送員專法"},{"start":30982.01,"end":30984.01,"text":"現在又想要立一個平台的專法"},{"start":30984.01,"end":30986.01,"text":"可是專法如果能夠"},{"start":30987.46,"end":30988.46,"text":"那當然也是一種好的方式"},{"start":30988.46,"end":30989.46,"text":"但事實不然"},{"start":30989.46,"end":30991.46,"text":"外送員專法之後"},{"start":30991.46,"end":30994.46,"text":"平台又抽出一些方式來做因應"},{"start":30994.46,"end":30996.46,"text":"才會提出所謂的平台專法的出現"},{"start":30996.46,"end":30999.46,"text":"所以顯然這個平台的這個特定的一個"},{"start":30999.46,"end":31001.46,"text":"職業的這個專法"},{"start":31001.46,"end":31003.46,"text":"未必有那麼好用的情況底下"},{"start":31003.46,"end":31005.46,"text":"恐怕我們要思考一個新的型態"},{"start":31005.46,"end":31007.46,"text":"新的型態的部分就是說"},{"start":31007.46,"end":31009.46,"text":"過往我們在鎖定這一種"},{"start":31009.46,"end":31012.46,"text":"僱用關係的一個勞動基準法的思考上面"},{"start":31012.46,"end":31016.46,"text":"只是會照顧到傳統僱用關係的勞動者的身上"},{"start":31016.46,"end":31017.46,"text":"那另外一種呢"},{"start":31017.46,"end":31019.46,"text":"自營作業者要不要去關心呢"},{"start":31020.4,"end":31022.4,"text":"自營作業者的一種勞動型態"},{"start":31022.4,"end":31024.4,"text":"其實在台灣的保護上只有社會保險"},{"start":31024.4,"end":31025.4,"text":"並沒有專屬的法案"},{"start":31025.4,"end":31026.4,"text":"這是第一啦"},{"start":31026.4,"end":31028.4,"text":"第二個是累勞工的這個部分"},{"start":31029.43,"end":31031.43,"text":"累勞工的部分就是類似這一種"},{"start":31031.43,"end":31033.43,"text":"彈性勞動體制情況底下"},{"start":31033.43,"end":31035.43,"text":"非典型勞動者的部分"},{"start":31035.43,"end":31037.43,"text":"有沒有需要另立一個基本法"},{"start":31037.43,"end":31039.43,"text":"我想要就教於被提名的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":31039.43,"end":31040.43,"text":"這三種分類當中"},{"start":31040.43,"end":31042.43,"text":"台灣是不是要重新思考"},{"start":31042.43,"end":31045.43,"text":"對不同的勞動者進行不同的保護"},{"start":31045.43,"end":31047.43,"text":"才能達到剛剛所提到的"},{"start":31047.43,"end":31049.43,"text":"不同的勞動者的薪資可以提高"},{"start":31050.69,"end":31051.69,"text":"是的"},{"start":31051.69,"end":31053.69,"text":"特別是現在的年輕人"},{"start":31053.69,"end":31057.69,"text":"他要的可能是一個工作的自由"},{"start":31057.69,"end":31058.69,"text":"工作的彈性"},{"start":31058.69,"end":31059.69,"text":"所以呢"},{"start":31059.69,"end":31060.69,"text":"事實上有"},{"start":31060.69,"end":31064.69,"text":"所以很多勞工他會選擇一些"},{"start":31064.69,"end":31067.69,"text":"非傳統的一些工作型態"},{"start":31067.69,"end":31070.69,"text":"有的時候也是有他個人選擇的一個成分"},{"start":31070.69,"end":31072.69,"text":"不過如果在他個人選擇的自由"},{"start":31072.69,"end":31075.69,"text":"跟他長期的勞動保障之間"},{"start":31075.69,"end":31077.69,"text":"我覺得要取得平衡"},{"start":31077.69,"end":31080.69,"text":"各式各樣的非典的保障"},{"start":31080.69,"end":31082.69,"text":"是不是國家要來立法"},{"start":31082.69,"end":31083.69,"text":"像平台經濟的"},{"start":31083.69,"end":31086.69,"text":"甚至有些國家對於勞動派遣"},{"start":31086.69,"end":31088.69,"text":"也是用專法的方式"},{"start":31088.69,"end":31089.69,"text":"那我們台灣"},{"start":31089.69,"end":31091.69,"text":"我們目前是在勞基法裡面"},{"start":31091.69,"end":31093.69,"text":"有幾個重要的條文來處理"},{"start":31093.69,"end":31094.69,"text":"那這個夠不夠"},{"start":31094.69,"end":31096.69,"text":"我覺得都可以再討論"},{"start":31096.69,"end":31099.69,"text":"因為我們曾經勞動派遣也考慮過要立"},{"start":31099.69,"end":31102.69,"text":"專法或是勞基法的專章"},{"start":31102.69,"end":31105.69,"text":"但是當時也只有幾個條文"},{"start":31105.69,"end":31107.69,"text":"這個我覺得都可以再來加強"},{"start":31107.69,"end":31109.69,"text":"然後有一些類勞工的部分"},{"start":31109.69,"end":31112.69,"text":"我覺得也可以來思考"},{"start":31112.69,"end":31116.69,"text":"用一種更寬廣的方式來去處理"},{"start":31116.69,"end":31125.69,"text":"那當然如果透過這一些勞工自主的團結的組織的形成"},{"start":31125.69,"end":31128.69,"text":"我覺得也是一個非常好的方式"},{"start":31128.69,"end":31129.69,"text":"在其他國家"},{"start":31129.69,"end":31132.69,"text":"譬如說我們從2011年開始"},{"start":31132.69,"end":31134.69,"text":"我們新的勞動實際案法通過以後"},{"start":31134.69,"end":31135.69,"text":"有關這個"},{"start":31136.35,"end":31139.35,"text":"產子業工會他們新的一些發展的籌組"},{"start":31139.35,"end":31143.35,"text":"那這幾年有一些就是說產子業工會的發展"},{"start":31143.35,"end":31146.35,"text":"我覺得也是非常值得借鏡"},{"start":31146.35,"end":31150.35,"text":"那這一些所謂的非典型的勞動者"},{"start":31150.35,"end":31154.35,"text":"他們可不可以自發性的自主性的透過團結權"},{"start":31154.35,"end":31160.35,"text":"來形成他們自助人助的一個團結組織"},{"start":31160.35,"end":31163.35,"text":"我覺得然後在國家在制度上給予他們一些協助"},{"start":31163.35,"end":31167.35,"text":"我覺得這個都是可以來進行的一個方式"},{"start":31167.35,"end":31171.35,"text":"我覺得集體勞動權利的部分的彰顯當然是非常的重要"},{"start":31171.35,"end":31177.35,"text":"但是透過集體力量能夠捍衛集體的勞動或個體的勞動的權利"},{"start":31177.35,"end":31180.35,"text":"老實講在台灣數十年的歷史發展當中"},{"start":31180.35,"end":31183.35,"text":"沒有太多樂觀的空間"},{"start":31183.35,"end":31185.35,"text":"即便我們立法上由於這樣的空間"},{"start":31185.35,"end":31187.35,"text":"不過以以前的廠廠工會的形態"},{"start":31187.35,"end":31191.35,"text":"廠廠的一個整個勞動的環境的情況底下"},{"start":31191.35,"end":31193.35,"text":"比較能夠凝聚集體的勞動行為"},{"start":31193.35,"end":31196.35,"text":"但是問題是現在這種分散的情況底下"},{"start":31196.35,"end":31199.35,"text":"要形成一個集體勞動的空間的可能性"},{"start":31199.35,"end":31201.35,"text":"老實講是相對困難"},{"start":31201.35,"end":31203.35,"text":"你法律可以賦予這樣的空間"},{"start":31203.35,"end":31207.35,"text":"但是實際上有形成這種集體勞動的談判力量的可能性"},{"start":31207.35,"end":31210.35,"text":"老實說是相對很不容易"},{"start":31210.35,"end":31212.35,"text":"我覺得面對現實來說是這樣子"},{"start":31212.35,"end":31213.35,"text":"這種情況不容易的情況底下"},{"start":31213.35,"end":31215.35,"text":"國家的角色就非常的重要"},{"start":31215.35,"end":31218.35,"text":"就如同你剛剛提到了政府的角色是非常關鍵"},{"start":31218.35,"end":31221.35,"text":"也就如同你現在被提名為監察委員的部分"},{"start":31221.35,"end":31222.35,"text":"也應該扮演這個角色"},{"start":31222.35,"end":31225.35,"text":"要求行政部門發揮一定的力量"},{"start":31225.35,"end":31226.35,"text":"在法的部分"},{"start":31226.35,"end":31229.35,"text":"不論是剛剛提到勞動法的基本法"},{"start":31229.35,"end":31231.35,"text":"或者是勞動專章或勞動專法"},{"start":31231.35,"end":31233.35,"text":"或者勞動基本法"},{"start":31233.35,"end":31236.35,"text":"都有可能形成這種體制的一個健全"},{"start":31236.35,"end":31238.35,"text":"我期待你把你過去的勞動運動的精神"},{"start":31238.35,"end":31239.35,"text":"引入這個體制"},{"start":31241.71,"end":31243.71,"text":"好 謝謝郭委員"},{"start":31244.28,"end":31247.28,"text":"下一位請王洪威委員詢問"},{"start":31259.2,"end":31260.2,"text":"好 謝謝主席"},{"start":31260.2,"end":31262.2,"text":"請被提名人"},{"start":31262.2,"end":31264.2,"text":"好 請"},{"start":31264.2,"end":31266.2,"text":"我們張被提名人"},{"start":31273.1,"end":31275.1,"text":"好 被提名人好"},{"start":31275.1,"end":31278.1,"text":"我有看你的自傳和你的報告"},{"start":31278.1,"end":31279.1,"text":"我必須講"},{"start":31279.1,"end":31282.1,"text":"跟很多位被提名人比較起來"},{"start":31282.1,"end":31285.1,"text":"你的自傳你的報告都非常的簡要"},{"start":31286.13,"end":31291.13,"text":"在您有限的這個自傳的敘述裡面提到"},{"start":31291.13,"end":31294.13,"text":"您曾經進入勞委會"},{"start":31294.13,"end":31298.13,"text":"就是現在勞動部前身擔任主委的機要秘書"},{"start":31298.13,"end":31301.13,"text":"您是擔任前"},{"start":31301.28,"end":31304.28,"text":"主委 盧天琳主委的機要秘書嗎"},{"start":31304.28,"end":31305.28,"text":"是"},{"start":31305.28,"end":31306.28,"text":"是"},{"start":31306.9,"end":31307.9,"text":"我覺得好"},{"start":31308.35,"end":31310.35,"text":"這個經驗可能不是很好的經驗"},{"start":31311.24,"end":31316.24,"text":"我想盧天琳她後來所爆發的種種的弊案跟爭議"},{"start":31316.24,"end":31323.24,"text":"她應該算是史上最糟糕的這個勞委會主委或勞動部部長"},{"start":31323.76,"end":31325.76,"text":"那在她的任內"},{"start":31326.92,"end":31331.92,"text":"就是有她這個貪污挪用公款去做選舉的問題"},{"start":31332.65,"end":31338.65,"text":"然後她後來去擔任亞洲航空公司的這個"},{"start":31340.21,"end":31341.21,"text":"董事長"},{"start":31341.21,"end":31344.21,"text":"那麼也濫訴勞工"},{"start":31344.21,"end":31348.21,"text":"而且事實上有很多勞工都在投訴她"},{"start":31348.21,"end":31350.21,"text":"那行徑極為囂張跟惡劣"},{"start":31350.21,"end":31352.21,"text":"如果以現在的標準來講"},{"start":31352.21,"end":31356.21,"text":"簡直是完全沒有辦法為社會接受"},{"start":31356.21,"end":31359.21,"text":"所以我想請問被提名人"},{"start":31361.32,"end":31363.32,"text":"基本上你覺得你那一段的經歷"},{"start":31363.32,"end":31365.32,"text":"因為你特別寫在你的自傳上"},{"start":31365.32,"end":31367.32,"text":"你覺得是一個好的經歷嗎"},{"start":31369.95,"end":31370.95,"text":"啊"},{"start":31371.69,"end":31373.69,"text":"我大概在"},{"start":31373.69,"end":31375.69,"text":"因為當時我是"},{"start":31375.69,"end":31377.69,"text":"當時那個"},{"start":31377.46,"end":31379.46,"text":"盧天玲委員"},{"start":31379.46,"end":31380.46,"text":"她那時候是"},{"start":31380.46,"end":31382.46,"text":"民進黨部分區立委"},{"start":31382.46,"end":31385.46,"text":"那我本來就是在她立委的辦公室"},{"start":31385.46,"end":31387.46,"text":"所以跟著她進入勞委會"},{"start":31387.46,"end":31389.46,"text":"後來她在立委的最後一年"},{"start":31389.46,"end":31391.46,"text":"到勞動部"},{"start":31391.46,"end":31393.46,"text":"勞委會擔任主委一年"},{"start":31393.46,"end":31395.46,"text":"那所以呢"},{"start":31395.46,"end":31397.46,"text":"我當時就協助她"},{"start":31397.46,"end":31399.46,"text":"在這個勞動部"},{"start":31399.46,"end":31401.46,"text":"所以你認不認爲她的這個"},{"start":31401.46,"end":31404.46,"text":"我剛才講史上最糟糕的勞委會主委"},{"start":31404.46,"end":31406.46,"text":"沒有冤枉她吧"},{"start":31406.46,"end":31407.46,"text":"好"},{"start":31408.61,"end":31409.61,"text":"被提名人"},{"start":31409.61,"end":31411.61,"text":"你是被提名爲監委哦"},{"start":31411.61,"end":31415.61,"text":"如果你連她已經受到司法的"},{"start":31415.61,"end":31417.61,"text":"這個制裁"},{"start":31417.61,"end":31419.61,"text":"包含她這個"},{"start":31420.23,"end":31421.23,"text":"對不起哦"},{"start":31421.37,"end":31423.37,"text":"包含她這個"},{"start":31423.37,"end":31425.37,"text":"就有關於貪污的部分"},{"start":31425.37,"end":31428.37,"text":"或者是她濫訴勞工的部分"},{"start":31428.37,"end":31431.37,"text":"你都還沒有辦法有一個定見的話"},{"start":31431.37,"end":31433.37,"text":"那你如果當上監委"},{"start":31433.37,"end":31435.37,"text":"我不曉得你能夠監察誰啊"},{"start":31435.37,"end":31436.37,"text":"沒有"},{"start":31436.37,"end":31437.37,"text":"我的意思是說"},{"start":31437.37,"end":31438.37,"text":"她的部分"},{"start":31438.37,"end":31440.37,"text":"所謂的涉貪的部分"},{"start":31440.37,"end":31441.37,"text":"她已經"},{"start":31442.73,"end":31443.73,"text":"得到"},{"start":31444.91,"end":31446.91,"text":"在進入司法的審判"},{"start":31446.91,"end":31447.91,"text":"那有"},{"start":31447.91,"end":31449.91,"text":"也有受到司法相關的一個懲處"},{"start":31449.91,"end":31451.91,"text":"那我覺得呢"},{"start":31451.91,"end":31454.91,"text":"我們這個社會上"},{"start":31454.91,"end":31456.91,"text":"每個人應該對於這個"},{"start":31456.91,"end":31459.91,"text":"受過司法案件懲處的未來人"},{"start":31459.91,"end":31460.91,"text":"他如果"},{"start":31460.68,"end":31462.68,"text":"後來願意這個"},{"start":31462.68,"end":31463.68,"text":"被提名人"},{"start":31463.68,"end":31466.68,"text":"因為你被提名的是監察委員"},{"start":31466.68,"end":31468.68,"text":"如果你還沒有辦法"},{"start":31468.68,"end":31470.68,"text":"針對雖然是你的老長官"},{"start":31470.68,"end":31474.68,"text":"有一個符合社會期待的"},{"start":31474.68,"end":31476.68,"text":"一個評價的話"},{"start":31476.68,"end":31478.68,"text":"其實會讓外界認為"},{"start":31478.68,"end":31480.68,"text":"你到底能不能夠"},{"start":31480.68,"end":31483.68,"text":"去執行你的監察的任務"},{"start":31483.68,"end":31484.68,"text":"會有疑問"},{"start":31485.68,"end":31486.68,"text":"另外"},{"start":31486.68,"end":31488.68,"text":"在你的自傳裡面"},{"start":31488.68,"end":31490.68,"text":"也提到剛才前面郭國文委員"},{"start":31490.68,"end":31491.68,"text":"也提到"},{"start":31491.68,"end":31494.68,"text":"你提到有關於派遣跟外送員"},{"start":31494.68,"end":31497.68,"text":"這樣新習態的一個勞工"},{"start":31497.68,"end":31499.68,"text":"他的相關的權益"},{"start":31499.68,"end":31502.68,"text":"要怎麼在制度上建立跟重視"},{"start":31503.48,"end":31505.48,"text":"最近發生一件事情"},{"start":31505.93,"end":31506.93,"text":"就是呢"},{"start":31507.44,"end":31509.44,"text":"UberEats的外送員"},{"start":31510.13,"end":31513.13,"text":"他們去北檢去提告"},{"start":31513.13,"end":31517.13,"text":"最主要就是我們在立法院通過了外送專法"},{"start":31517.62,"end":31519.62,"text":"而這些平台呢"},{"start":31519.62,"end":31520.62,"text":"說他會執行"},{"start":31520.62,"end":31523.62,"text":"他會依法來給付"},{"start":31523.62,"end":31524.62,"text":"但是呢"},{"start":31524.62,"end":31526.62,"text":"現在時間到了"},{"start":31526.62,"end":31528.62,"text":"他在七月份上路"},{"start":31528.62,"end":31530.62,"text":"可是外送員就發現"},{"start":31530.62,"end":31531.62,"text":"他們利用演算法"},{"start":31531.62,"end":31534.62,"text":"事實上並沒有依法給付"},{"start":31534.62,"end":31537.62,"text":"所以他們去暗鈴申告"},{"start":31538.24,"end":31539.24,"text":"其實照理說"},{"start":31539.24,"end":31542.24,"text":"他們應該跟勞動部去投訴"},{"start":31542.24,"end":31543.24,"text":"我們這一點"},{"start":31543.24,"end":31545.24,"text":"我們的立法委員們"},{"start":31545.24,"end":31548.24,"text":"也會來請勞動部"},{"start":31548.24,"end":31549.24,"text":"予以協助"},{"start":31549.24,"end":31551.24,"text":"而且應該予以調查"},{"start":31552.33,"end":31554.33,"text":"可是他們採取的是去北檢"},{"start":31554.33,"end":31555.33,"text":"去提告"},{"start":31555.33,"end":31558.33,"text":"所以這也充分顯示出"},{"start":31558.33,"end":31559.33,"text":"我們的外送員"},{"start":31559.33,"end":31562.33,"text":"即使已經有外送專法"},{"start":31562.33,"end":31564.33,"text":"照理應該可以保護他"},{"start":31564.33,"end":31565.33,"text":"但是呢"},{"start":31565.33,"end":31569.33,"text":"業者還是巧妙的利用演算法"},{"start":31569.33,"end":31571.33,"text":"去迴避他應有的責任"},{"start":31571.33,"end":31572.33,"text":"所以請問一下"},{"start":31572.33,"end":31575.33,"text":"貝提明人你怎麼來看這個事件"},{"start":31575.33,"end":31577.33,"text":"外送業者"},{"start":31577.33,"end":31579.33,"text":"運用這種演算法"},{"start":31579.33,"end":31581.33,"text":"來這個"},{"start":31581.33,"end":31584.33,"text":"這個在國外"},{"start":31584.33,"end":31586.33,"text":"我們把它稱之為演算法獨裁"},{"start":31586.33,"end":31587.33,"text":"這個部分"},{"start":31587.33,"end":31588.33,"text":"那我覺得呢"},{"start":31588.33,"end":31591.33,"text":"這個新法通過以後"},{"start":31591.45,"end":31595.45,"text":"我覺得既然賦予國家公權力"},{"start":31595.45,"end":31598.45,"text":"可以來針對這個平台業者"},{"start":31598.45,"end":31599.45,"text":"來行政處罰的話"},{"start":31599.45,"end":31600.45,"text":"那我覺得當然"},{"start":31601.67,"end":31603.67,"text":"這個如果這個外送員"},{"start":31603.67,"end":31605.67,"text":"他有權益受損"},{"start":31605.67,"end":31608.67,"text":"自然行政單位應該要依法來裁罰這個"},{"start":31608.67,"end":31610.67,"text":"平台業者才對"},{"start":31610.67,"end":31612.67,"text":"如果如果當然行政單位"},{"start":31612.67,"end":31614.67,"text":"如果有所缺失"},{"start":31614.67,"end":31616.67,"text":"有所帶墮的話"},{"start":31616.67,"end":31621.67,"text":"那監察委員應該自然一定要發動來調查"},{"start":31621.67,"end":31623.67,"text":"我覺得這個法律剛通過"},{"start":31623.67,"end":31625.67,"text":"怎麼樣來落實"},{"start":31625.67,"end":31627.67,"text":"來照顧到這些非典勞工"},{"start":31627.67,"end":31630.67,"text":"我覺得是整個社會的共識"},{"start":31630.67,"end":31632.67,"text":"最後一件也跟"},{"start":31632.67,"end":31636.67,"text":"這個你過去應該關心的議題"},{"start":31637.35,"end":31639.35,"text":"我想請問一下"},{"start":31639.35,"end":31641.35,"text":"現在行政院事實上"},{"start":31641.35,"end":31643.35,"text":"立法院朝野都有共識"},{"start":31643.35,"end":31645.35,"text":"為了要幫助"},{"start":31645.35,"end":31647.35,"text":"我們年輕的父母育兒"},{"start":31647.35,"end":31648.35,"text":"所以呢"},{"start":31648.35,"end":31652.35,"text":"我們有開放外籍幫傭的一個政策"},{"start":31652.35,"end":31655.35,"text":"也就是有一個小孩"},{"start":31655.35,"end":31657.35,"text":"12歲以下的小孩的家庭"},{"start":31657.35,"end":31661.35,"text":"就可以聘用外籍幫傭"},{"start":31661.35,"end":31663.35,"text":"請問一下被提名人"},{"start":31663.35,"end":31665.35,"text":"這個政策您支持嗎"},{"start":31667.54,"end":31669.54,"text":"聘請外籍幫傭12歲以下"},{"start":31669.54,"end":31672.54,"text":"我個人是覺得就是說"},{"start":31672.54,"end":31676.54,"text":"國家應該先優先的來"},{"start":31676.54,"end":31678.54,"text":"這個擴大這個所謂的"},{"start":31678.54,"end":31681.54,"text":"公共托育的一個照顧的能量"},{"start":31681.54,"end":31683.54,"text":"讓這一些"},{"start":31683.54,"end":31685.54,"text":"所以你這個政策已經是公開的"},{"start":31685.54,"end":31687.54,"text":"行政院已經正式宣布"},{"start":31687.54,"end":31688.54,"text":"對"},{"start":31688.54,"end":31689.54,"text":"那我意思就是說"},{"start":31689.54,"end":31691.54,"text":"因為你說請家庭幫傭"},{"start":31691.54,"end":31692.54,"text":"事實上每個月"},{"start":31692.54,"end":31695.54,"text":"耗費的薪資恐怕不是一個"},{"start":31695.54,"end":31697.54,"text":"一般的上班族的家庭"},{"start":31697.54,"end":31698.54,"text":"可以負擔得起的"},{"start":31698.54,"end":31700.54,"text":"所以我覺得呢"},{"start":31700.54,"end":31702.54,"text":"這個部分可能即使開放了"},{"start":31702.54,"end":31705.54,"text":"可能只解決某一部分的社會問題"},{"start":31705.54,"end":31706.54,"text":"所以你不支持"},{"start":31706.54,"end":31708.54,"text":"它只是一種錦上添花的"},{"start":31708.54,"end":31711.54,"text":"我個人覺得擴大公共托育的"},{"start":31711.54,"end":31714.54,"text":"而且是平價優質的公共托育"},{"start":31714.54,"end":31715.54,"text":"我覺得這才是對"},{"start":31715.54,"end":31718.54,"text":"我們一般普遍上班族雙薪家庭"},{"start":31718.54,"end":31720.54,"text":"好這個呢"},{"start":31720.54,"end":31721.54,"text":"當時呢"},{"start":31721.54,"end":31722.54,"text":"這個"},{"start":31723.56,"end":31727.56,"text":"監察院國家人權會也出來反對這個新制"},{"start":31727.56,"end":31730.56,"text":"但是這個是一個朝野包含行政院"},{"start":31730.56,"end":31731.56,"text":"跟立法院"},{"start":31731.56,"end":31732.56,"text":"像我自己本身"},{"start":31732.56,"end":31734.56,"text":"我也支持這樣的一個政策"},{"start":31734.56,"end":31736.56,"text":"那我必須要講"},{"start":31736.56,"end":31738.56,"text":"就是說以我們現在少子化"},{"start":31738.56,"end":31741.56,"text":"我個人支持勞動普這項新制"},{"start":31741.56,"end":31743.56,"text":"那但是我可以看到"},{"start":31743.56,"end":31746.56,"text":"我們的這個被提名人看起來"},{"start":31746.56,"end":31749.56,"text":"你對這個這個政策"},{"start":31749.56,"end":31750.56,"text":"你看起來有反對"},{"start":31750.56,"end":31751.56,"text":"但是我也講"},{"start":31752.4,"end":31755.4,"text":"雖然監察院後來有表示反對"},{"start":31755.4,"end":31756.4,"text":"最後也不了了之啊"},{"start":31756.4,"end":31759.4,"text":"也沒有對行政院這項政策"},{"start":31759.4,"end":31762.4,"text":"有任何的調查或有任何的意見"},{"start":31763.27,"end":31765.27,"text":"那另外因為被提名人"},{"start":31765.27,"end":31767.27,"text":"你是第一次被提名嘛"},{"start":31767.27,"end":31768.27,"text":"對不對"},{"start":31768.27,"end":31770.27,"text":"那我想請教你一件事情"},{"start":31773.31,"end":31777.31,"text":"在這一屆的監委裡面爆發了一個"},{"start":31777.31,"end":31779.31,"text":"在外界討論非常多的"},{"start":31779.31,"end":31783.31,"text":"就是有濫用公務預算"},{"start":31784.14,"end":31786.14,"text":"就是公務車"},{"start":31786.14,"end":31790.14,"text":"事實上這個涉及好幾位的監委"},{"start":31790.14,"end":31796.14,"text":"那包括前秘書長也因此而下台"},{"start":31797.26,"end":31798.26,"text":"監察院呢"},{"start":31798.26,"end":31801.26,"text":"雖然說啟動了調查"},{"start":31801.26,"end":31802.26,"text":"但是呢"},{"start":31802.26,"end":31804.26,"text":"除了呂敬義秘書長"},{"start":31804.26,"end":31807.26,"text":"他是自己主動請辭下台之外"},{"start":31807.26,"end":31809.26,"text":"其他的監委呢"},{"start":31809.26,"end":31811.26,"text":"事實上也就沒事了"},{"start":31811.26,"end":31815.26,"text":"包含呢這次提名的副院長的人選"},{"start":31815.26,"end":31819.26,"text":"其實他也深陷這個濫用公務車的"},{"start":31819.26,"end":31822.26,"text":"這個整個的風暴之中"},{"start":31822.26,"end":31824.26,"text":"因為啊你是新提名的"},{"start":31824.26,"end":31827.26,"text":"我想你應該可以用比較中性"},{"start":31827.26,"end":31830.26,"text":"這非涉及的事情"},{"start":31830.26,"end":31831.26,"text":"你怎麼看"},{"start":31831.26,"end":31833.26,"text":"就是身為國台大人"},{"start":31833.26,"end":31836.26,"text":"然後呢在公務車的濫用上"},{"start":31836.26,"end":31839.26,"text":"被外界質疑"},{"start":31839.26,"end":31841.26,"text":"但是後來調查不了了之"},{"start":31842.68,"end":31843.68,"text":"你怎麼來看"},{"start":31843.68,"end":31847.68,"text":"我覺得監察委員作為他要彈劾我們所有的百官"},{"start":31847.68,"end":31849.68,"text":"的這種地位呢"},{"start":31849.68,"end":31852.68,"text":"我覺得事實上要更謹慎自己"},{"start":31852.68,"end":31855.68,"text":"要對自己的地位要更謹慎"},{"start":31855.68,"end":31859.68,"text":"那我覺得這個公務車的這個使用"},{"start":31859.68,"end":31860.68,"text":"我覺得監察院呢"},{"start":31860.68,"end":31863.68,"text":"應該要有一個更明確的一個方式"},{"start":31863.68,"end":31865.68,"text":"而且是更透明的一個方式"},{"start":31865.68,"end":31867.68,"text":"讓社會大眾知道"},{"start":31867.68,"end":31869.68,"text":"這個公務車不會被濫用"},{"start":31869.68,"end":31871.68,"text":"好但是最後呢"},{"start":31871.68,"end":31873.68,"text":"雖然雷聲大雨點小"},{"start":31873.68,"end":31877.68,"text":"就是看起來呢大規模的調查報告"},{"start":31885.82,"end":31887.82,"text":"好謝謝王委員"},{"start":31887.82,"end":31890.82,"text":"下一位請李坤哲委員詢問"},{"start":31910.28,"end":31912.28,"text":"好謝謝主席"},{"start":31912.28,"end":31914.28,"text":"請一下張貝提名人"},{"start":31914.28,"end":31916.28,"text":"請張貝提名人"},{"start":31922.91,"end":31924.91,"text":"好張貝提名人您好"},{"start":31924.91,"end":31926.91,"text":"關於你過去長期啊"},{"start":31926.91,"end":31929.91,"text":"在勞工運動爭取勞工的權利"},{"start":31929.91,"end":31933.91,"text":"站在第一線所付出的努力啊"},{"start":31933.91,"end":31936.91,"text":"其實大家印象都非常的深刻"},{"start":31936.91,"end":31939.91,"text":"那我們就直接要進入相關的主題"},{"start":31939.91,"end":31942.91,"text":"我要來請教張貝提名人"},{"start":31942.91,"end":31944.91,"text":"有關於勞工的權利"},{"start":31944.91,"end":31947.91,"text":"不管是勞保勞退"},{"start":31947.91,"end":31949.91,"text":"或是相關的勞動檢查"},{"start":31949.91,"end":31951.91,"text":"以及相關的職業災害"},{"start":31951.91,"end":31953.91,"text":"不管是相關的預防"},{"start":31953.91,"end":31954.91,"text":"或者是重建"},{"start":31954.91,"end":31957.91,"text":"都是勞工非常關心的議題"},{"start":31958.26,"end":31960.26,"text":"那我首先要請教你"},{"start":31960.26,"end":31961.26,"text":"我們的勞動檢查"},{"start":31961.26,"end":31963.26,"text":"除了勞動部的職安署"},{"start":31963.26,"end":31965.26,"text":"是他的相關職權之外"},{"start":31965.26,"end":31967.26,"text":"中央也委託啊"},{"start":31967.26,"end":31968.26,"text":"職轄市"},{"start":31968.26,"end":31969.26,"text":"或是經濟部"},{"start":31969.26,"end":31971.26,"text":"或是國科會"},{"start":31971.26,"end":31973.26,"text":"或是其他的待檢機構"},{"start":31973.26,"end":31976.26,"text":"那相關的這樣一個勞動檢查"},{"start":31976.26,"end":31978.26,"text":"相關的實際的狀況"},{"start":31978.26,"end":31980.26,"text":"你認為有什麼問題嗎"},{"start":31980.97,"end":31983.97,"text":"是的 謝謝委員的質詢"},{"start":31983.97,"end":31987.97,"text":"那勞動檢查確實是這個保障"},{"start":31987.97,"end":31988.97,"text":"或是說要落實"},{"start":31989.85,"end":31991.85,"text":"我們的勞工法令"},{"start":31991.85,"end":31994.85,"text":"或是勞工人權保障的最後一道防線"},{"start":31994.85,"end":31996.85,"text":"那所以呢"},{"start":31996.85,"end":32000.85,"text":"世界上各國對於勞動檢查權的行使"},{"start":32000.85,"end":32002.85,"text":"都是非常慎重的"},{"start":32002.85,"end":32004.85,"text":"因為大家可以可想而知"},{"start":32004.85,"end":32006.85,"text":"勞檢機構事實上"},{"start":32006.85,"end":32009.85,"text":"他可以直接的進入"},{"start":32009.85,"end":32011.85,"text":"一般的私人企業進去"},{"start":32011.85,"end":32013.85,"text":"要求進行勞動檢查"},{"start":32013.85,"end":32015.85,"text":"我覺得這個"},{"start":32015.85,"end":32018.85,"text":"類似一種準司法權這樣子"},{"start":32018.85,"end":32019.85,"text":"所以呢"},{"start":32019.85,"end":32021.85,"text":"依照這個國際公約勞動檢查"},{"start":32021.85,"end":32025.85,"text":"基本上都是隸屬於中央政府機構的"},{"start":32025.85,"end":32028.85,"text":"像我們鄰近的日本的勞動檢查權"},{"start":32028.85,"end":32032.85,"text":"完全由他們中央的勞檢署在執行"},{"start":32032.85,"end":32034.85,"text":"然後各地方分署"},{"start":32034.85,"end":32036.85,"text":"他是完全由中央的"},{"start":32036.85,"end":32038.85,"text":"那但是台灣呢"},{"start":32038.85,"end":32040.85,"text":"因為歷史上的特別因素"},{"start":32040.85,"end":32041.85,"text":"我們台灣呢"},{"start":32041.85,"end":32043.85,"text":"依照勞動檢查法"},{"start":32043.85,"end":32046.85,"text":"我們是中央授權給"},{"start":32046.85,"end":32048.85,"text":"目前的直轄市"},{"start":32048.85,"end":32050.85,"text":"還有一些像經濟部、國科會"},{"start":32050.85,"end":32052.85,"text":"還有甚至代檢機構"},{"start":32052.85,"end":32053.85,"text":"這樣子一個方式"},{"start":32053.85,"end":32054.85,"text":"等於是授權出去"},{"start":32054.85,"end":32056.85,"text":"那授權出去的以後呢"},{"start":32056.85,"end":32060.85,"text":"我覺得這會產生一個很大的問題"},{"start":32060.85,"end":32063.85,"text":"就是說這一些授權出去的單位"},{"start":32063.85,"end":32067.85,"text":"到底有沒有秉公來處理這一些勞動檢查"},{"start":32067.85,"end":32070.85,"text":"會不會有濫用的問題"},{"start":32070.85,"end":32071.85,"text":"我知道前"},{"start":32071.85,"end":32073.85,"text":"應該前幾天"},{"start":32073.85,"end":32075.85,"text":"才發生那個"},{"start":32075.85,"end":32078.85,"text":"桃園市的勞檢員的一些相關的事件"},{"start":32078.85,"end":32081.85,"text":"後來這些勞檢員被解職"},{"start":32081.85,"end":32083.85,"text":"所以呢從這邊可以看出來就是說"},{"start":32083.85,"end":32087.85,"text":"這個中央他把勞檢權授權出去"},{"start":32087.85,"end":32089.85,"text":"還有就是像經濟部、國科會"},{"start":32089.85,"end":32091.85,"text":"他到底有沒有好好落實"},{"start":32091.85,"end":32093.85,"text":"我覺得呢"},{"start":32093.85,"end":32096.85,"text":"這個勞動部在這個授權出去以後"},{"start":32096.85,"end":32098.85,"text":"有沒有事後的考核追蹤"},{"start":32098.85,"end":32100.85,"text":"然後讓這一個"},{"start":32100.85,"end":32102.85,"text":"這個授權出去的單位"},{"start":32102.85,"end":32104.85,"text":"有沒有好好落實"},{"start":32104.85,"end":32105.85,"text":"這個勞動檢查"},{"start":32105.85,"end":32107.85,"text":"我覺得這是一個"},{"start":32107.85,"end":32109.85,"text":"必須要這個處理"},{"start":32109.85,"end":32112.85,"text":"而且也是過去勞動部比較"},{"start":32112.85,"end":32116.85,"text":"這個缺乏這個關注的這個議題"},{"start":32116.85,"end":32118.85,"text":"這相關的勞動檢查"},{"start":32118.85,"end":32120.85,"text":"對於勞工基本安全的保障"},{"start":32120.85,"end":32123.85,"text":"是一個最重要的一個基礎"},{"start":32123.85,"end":32125.85,"text":"那在目前的實行之上"},{"start":32125.85,"end":32129.85,"text":"還有很多的面向必須要給予落實"},{"start":32129.85,"end":32131.85,"text":"以及完全的一個完善"},{"start":32131.85,"end":32134.85,"text":"那另外對於我們之前"},{"start":32134.85,"end":32139.85,"text":"立法院通過的勞工職業災害及保險保護法"},{"start":32139.85,"end":32141.85,"text":"那根據這樣一個法令"},{"start":32141.85,"end":32144.85,"text":"我們針對勞工的這種職業災害"},{"start":32144.85,"end":32146.85,"text":"有基本的一個規範跟保障"},{"start":32146.85,"end":32153.85,"text":"那也成立了職業災害的相關的預防及重建中心"},{"start":32156.09,"end":32158.09,"text":"它當然也包含職災的預防"},{"start":32158.09,"end":32160.09,"text":"也包含職業的重建"},{"start":32160.09,"end":32162.09,"text":"以及受傷之後"},{"start":32162.09,"end":32165.09,"text":"職災之後的社會重建"},{"start":32165.09,"end":32170.09,"text":"那你認為在目前這個職災的預防及重建中心"},{"start":32170.09,"end":32173.09,"text":"它的功能有沒有落實你的觀察呢"},{"start":32173.09,"end":32176.09,"text":"是的那個災保法立法通過以後"},{"start":32176.09,"end":32181.09,"text":"我覺得一個非常重要就是成立這一個重建中心這個法人"},{"start":32181.09,"end":32183.09,"text":"因為它是用行政法人處理"},{"start":32183.09,"end":32186.09,"text":"所以它的人事的運用就比較彈性"},{"start":32187.25,"end":32189.25,"text":"不受這個公務機關的限制"},{"start":32189.25,"end":32193.25,"text":"我覺得這是一個比較進步彈性的做法"},{"start":32193.25,"end":32194.25,"text":"那但是呢"},{"start":32194.25,"end":32198.25,"text":"從災保法實施以後到現在這幾年"},{"start":32198.25,"end":32200.25,"text":"重建預防及重建中心"},{"start":32200.25,"end":32206.25,"text":"到底有沒有跟這個災保做密切的扣合"},{"start":32206.25,"end":32207.25,"text":"然後呢"},{"start":32207.25,"end":32209.25,"text":"來對於職災的勞工"},{"start":32209.25,"end":32212.25,"text":"他的重返職場"},{"start":32212.25,"end":32214.25,"text":"我覺得那個職業災害發生"},{"start":32214.25,"end":32219.25,"text":"其實最重要的並不是這個所謂的精神上的補償"},{"start":32219.25,"end":32220.25,"text":"我覺得呢"},{"start":32220.25,"end":32225.25,"text":"最重要就是說怎麼樣讓他這個職業的重建"},{"start":32225.25,"end":32227.25,"text":"職業能力的重建、復建"},{"start":32227.25,"end":32229.25,"text":"然後再重返職場"},{"start":32229.25,"end":32231.25,"text":"然後另外呢"},{"start":32231.25,"end":32233.25,"text":"在這個"},{"start":32233.25,"end":32235.25,"text":"因為了解這個職災發生的原因以後"},{"start":32235.25,"end":32239.25,"text":"是不是可以協助企業來預防那個職災的再度發生"},{"start":32239.25,"end":32243.25,"text":"我覺得這個都是當時災保法立法通過以後"},{"start":32243.25,"end":32247.25,"text":"賦予這個我們這個法人的一個重要的一個任務"},{"start":32247.25,"end":32249.25,"text":"那我覺得在這幾年"},{"start":32249.25,"end":32251.25,"text":"到底有沒有辦法落實"},{"start":32251.25,"end":32253.25,"text":"有沒有落實這個東西我想是"},{"start":32253.25,"end":32255.25,"text":"大家都非常關心的"},{"start":32255.25,"end":32260.25,"text":"如果未來如果擔任這個監察委員跟人權委員的話"},{"start":32260.25,"end":32262.25,"text":"一定會針對這一個他的功能"},{"start":32262.25,"end":32264.25,"text":"有沒有落實呢"},{"start":32264.25,"end":32266.25,"text":"來更追蹤"},{"start":32266.75,"end":32268.75,"text":"好"},{"start":32267.8,"end":32268.8,"text":"被提名的"},{"start":32268.8,"end":32270.8,"text":"過去我們台灣的社會大眾"},{"start":32270.8,"end":32272.8,"text":"關心的勞工議題"},{"start":32272.8,"end":32274.8,"text":"不管是勞保、勞退"},{"start":32274.8,"end":32276.8,"text":"或是職業災害"},{"start":32276.8,"end":32280.8,"text":"或是相關的這樣的一個勞工權利的種種的議題"},{"start":32280.8,"end":32284.8,"text":"但是強迫勞動的這樣的一個議題"},{"start":32284.8,"end":32287.8,"text":"是大家比較不熟悉的一個面向"},{"start":32287.8,"end":32289.8,"text":"那根據國際勞工組織"},{"start":32289.8,"end":32291.8,"text":"就是針對強迫勞動"},{"start":32291.8,"end":32293.8,"text":"他的定義就是"},{"start":32293.8,"end":32295.8,"text":"你在非自願的狀況"},{"start":32295.8,"end":32299.8,"text":"以及受到懲罰的威脅狀況之下"},{"start":32299.8,"end":32302.8,"text":"所實施的服務或者是工作"},{"start":32302.8,"end":32304.8,"text":"都是屬於強迫勞動"},{"start":32304.8,"end":32307.8,"text":"台灣在過去也碰到強迫勞動"},{"start":32307.8,"end":32310.8,"text":"受到國際注意的這樣一個狀況"},{"start":32310.8,"end":32313.8,"text":"去年九月我們有一個自行車廠"},{"start":32313.8,"end":32315.8,"text":"他的自行車跟他的零配件"},{"start":32315.8,"end":32321.8,"text":"就因為涉及相關的這樣的一個強迫勞動的範圍"},{"start":32321.8,"end":32323.8,"text":"所以受到美國海關"},{"start":32323.8,"end":32326.8,"text":"受到海關的這樣一個扣留"},{"start":32326.8,"end":32329.8,"text":"另外遠洋漁業也是一個問題"},{"start":32329.8,"end":32333.8,"text":"我們在2020年2022年2024年"},{"start":32333.8,"end":32339.8,"text":"三次被美國勞動部列為強迫勞動的名單"},{"start":32340.14,"end":32343.14,"text":"這個強迫勞動也關係到人權"},{"start":32343.14,"end":32347.14,"text":"也關係到我們勞工的這樣的一個勞工權益"},{"start":32347.14,"end":32351.14,"text":"以及對外貿易的一個重要的基礎"},{"start":32351.48,"end":32351.98,"text":"好"},{"start":32352.54,"end":32355.54,"text":"針對我們的強迫勞動這樣的一個議題"},{"start":32355.54,"end":32357.54,"text":"要如何跟國際接軌"},{"start":32357.54,"end":32359.54,"text":"我不曉得被提名人了不了解"},{"start":32359.54,"end":32363.54,"text":"是的我覺得這是一個當前非常重要議題"},{"start":32363.54,"end":32369.54,"text":"因為上個月我們才美國的3011的強迫勞動的一個調查"},{"start":32369.54,"end":32375.54,"text":"那我們因為針對這個強迫勞動做了一些比較好的承諾"},{"start":32375.54,"end":32376.54,"text":"強迫勞動禁止做比較好"},{"start":32376.54,"end":32379.54,"text":"所以我們得到百分之十不疊加"},{"start":32379.54,"end":32381.54,"text":"所以我們是在這個情況下"},{"start":32381.54,"end":32382.54,"text":"我們是在這個情況下"},{"start":32382.54,"end":32383.54,"text":"我們是在這個情況下"},{"start":32383.54,"end":32384.54,"text":"我們是在這個情況下"},{"start":32384.54,"end":32385.54,"text":"我們是在這個情況下"},{"start":32385.54,"end":32386.54,"text":"我們是在這個情況下"},{"start":32386.54,"end":32387.54,"text":"我們是在這個情況下"},{"start":32387.54,"end":32388.54,"text":"我們是在這個情況下"},{"start":32388.54,"end":32389.54,"text":"我們是在這個情況下"},{"start":32389.54,"end":32390.54,"text":"我們是在這個情況下"},{"start":32390.54,"end":32391.54,"text":"我們是在這個情況下"},{"start":32391.54,"end":32392.54,"text":"我們是在這個情況下"},{"start":32392.54,"end":32393.54,"text":"我們是在這個情況下"},{"start":32393.54,"end":32394.54,"text":"我們是在這個情況下"},{"start":32394.54,"end":32395.54,"text":"我們是在這個情況下"},{"start":32395.54,"end":32396.54,"text":"我們是在這個情況下"},{"start":32396.54,"end":32397.54,"text":"我們是在這個情況下"},{"start":32397.54,"end":32398.54,"text":"我們是在這個情況下"},{"start":32398.54,"end":32399.54,"text":"我們是在這個情況下"},{"start":32399.54,"end":32400.54,"text":"我們是在這個情況下"},{"start":32400.54,"end":32401.54,"text":"我們是在這個情況下"},{"start":32401.54,"end":32402.54,"text":"我們是在這個情況下"},{"start":32402.54,"end":32403.54,"text":"我們是在這個情況下"},{"start":32403.54,"end":32404.54,"text":"我們是在這個情況下"},{"start":32404.54,"end":32405.54,"text":"我們是在這個情況下"},{"start":32405.54,"end":32406.54,"text":"我們是在這個情況下"},{"start":32406.54,"end":32407.54,"text":"我們是在這個情況下"},{"start":32407.54,"end":32409.54,"text":"剛剛委員提到的那個"},{"start":32409.54,"end":32410.54,"text":"自行車的一個大廠"},{"start":32410.54,"end":32411.54,"text":"他被扣除強迫勞動"},{"start":32411.54,"end":32413.54,"text":"不過我覺得這是一個"},{"start":32413.54,"end":32414.54,"text":"我們的法制面"},{"start":32414.54,"end":32417.54,"text":"跟國際的強迫勞動標準"},{"start":32417.54,"end":32419.54,"text":"有非常大的落差"},{"start":32419.54,"end":32421.54,"text":"造成這一家廠商"},{"start":32421.54,"end":32422.54,"text":"他引進移工"},{"start":32422.54,"end":32424.54,"text":"事實上完全都是在"},{"start":32424.54,"end":32425.54,"text":"合法的狀態之下"},{"start":32425.54,"end":32428.54,"text":"而且合法的使用這些移工"},{"start":32428.54,"end":32431.54,"text":"但是也一樣被國外"},{"start":32431.54,"end":32433.54,"text":"被認定是強迫勞動"},{"start":32433.54,"end":32434.54,"text":"所以我覺得"},{"start":32434.54,"end":32436.54,"text":"這個就會變成就是說"},{"start":32436.54,"end":32439.54,"text":"我們既有的這個勞基法"},{"start":32439.54,"end":32440.54,"text":"有關強迫勞動"},{"start":32440.54,"end":32442.54,"text":"只有第五條的一個規定"},{"start":32442.54,"end":32444.54,"text":"那第五條的這個規定"},{"start":32444.54,"end":32446.54,"text":"事實上是1984年"},{"start":32446.54,"end":32449.54,"text":"勞基法立法的時候的規定"},{"start":32449.54,"end":32451.54,"text":"那大家知道當時1984年"},{"start":32451.54,"end":32454.54,"text":"台灣還沒有引進半個外籍移工"},{"start":32454.54,"end":32457.54,"text":"那台灣現在外籍移工這麼多"},{"start":32457.54,"end":32461.54,"text":"而且在國外整個國際上"},{"start":32461.54,"end":32464.54,"text":"國際貿易對強迫勞動的商品"},{"start":32464.54,"end":32466.54,"text":"不管是歐盟還是美國"},{"start":32466.54,"end":32468.54,"text":"都已經高度重視之下"},{"start":32468.54,"end":32470.54,"text":"我覺得我們應該"},{"start":32470.54,"end":32472.54,"text":"在國內的法治上"},{"start":32472.54,"end":32475.54,"text":"就應該做趕快的一個修正"},{"start":32475.54,"end":32478.54,"text":"才不會讓我們台灣的企業"},{"start":32478.54,"end":32480.54,"text":"事實上他在"},{"start":32480.54,"end":32483.54,"text":"他會宣稱說完全合法的"},{"start":32483.54,"end":32484.54,"text":"守法的狀態"},{"start":32484.54,"end":32487.54,"text":"我還是受到國際貿易的制裁"},{"start":32487.54,"end":32489.54,"text":"特別是這個"},{"start":32489.54,"end":32491.54,"text":"剛才委員說的聯合國"},{"start":32491.54,"end":32493.54,"text":"在2014年的時候"},{"start":32493.54,"end":32496.54,"text":"通過有關11項的強迫勞動的指標"},{"start":32496.54,"end":32499.54,"text":"那我們是不是這一個相關的法令"},{"start":32499.54,"end":32503.54,"text":"要參考這個11項的指標"},{"start":32503.54,"end":32506.54,"text":"然後讓這一個我們的企業"},{"start":32506.54,"end":32508.54,"text":"能夠有比較多的法尊"},{"start":32508.54,"end":32510.54,"text":"讓他們了解這個國際趨勢"},{"start":32510.54,"end":32513.54,"text":"我覺得這是一個當務之急"},{"start":32513.54,"end":32514.54,"text":"好 那也希望被提名人"},{"start":32514.54,"end":32517.54,"text":"在未來如果有擔任監委"},{"start":32517.54,"end":32518.54,"text":"或是人權委員的時候"},{"start":32518.54,"end":32520.54,"text":"針對勞工的相關權益"},{"start":32520.54,"end":32521.54,"text":"相關權益"},{"start":32521.54,"end":32523.54,"text":"不管是勞保 勞退"},{"start":32523.54,"end":32524.54,"text":"以及相關的權益"},{"start":32524.54,"end":32527.54,"text":"必須要全力的給予支持跟推動"},{"start":32528.65,"end":32529.65,"text":"好 謝謝李委員"},{"start":32530.68,"end":32533.68,"text":"下一位請王玉明委員詢問"},{"start":32544.8,"end":32546.8,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請提名人"},{"start":32547.96,"end":32549.96,"text":"請被提名人"},{"start":32558,"end":32559,"text":"提名人你好"},{"start":32559,"end":32563,"text":"我想這個雖然你是勞權的背景"},{"start":32563,"end":32565,"text":"但是民眾關心的一些議題"},{"start":32565,"end":32567,"text":"作為一個監察委員的提名人"},{"start":32567,"end":32569,"text":"也應該都要同等的關心"},{"start":32569,"end":32571,"text":"所以首先我就要就教你"},{"start":32571,"end":32574,"text":"有關於最近的這個死案事件"},{"start":32574,"end":32576,"text":"我想這個終點有指案"},{"start":32576,"end":32580,"text":"從6月30號爆發以來"},{"start":32580,"end":32583,"text":"到現在其實已經超過一個月了"},{"start":32583,"end":32585,"text":"但是這一個月以來"},{"start":32585,"end":32588,"text":"我們一直在立法院去追查"},{"start":32588,"end":32592,"text":"這個到底真正發生的原因是什麼"},{"start":32592,"end":32596,"text":"但是衛福部給了一個非常簡要的報告"},{"start":32596,"end":32598,"text":"他說有這個原有的問題"},{"start":32598,"end":32600,"text":"有製程的問題"},{"start":32600,"end":32601,"text":"有講跟沒講一樣"},{"start":32601,"end":32603,"text":"把所有的原因都講了"},{"start":32603,"end":32605,"text":"但是沒有確切的一個調查"},{"start":32605,"end":32609,"text":"甚至他的報告公布完之後"},{"start":32609,"end":32611,"text":"被發現還有一批漏掉的"},{"start":32611,"end":32614,"text":"而且已經銷往韓國"},{"start":32614,"end":32617,"text":"所以這整個行政單位的作為"},{"start":32617,"end":32620,"text":"一個是調查其實沒有確實"},{"start":32620,"end":32622,"text":"然後就對外公布"},{"start":32622,"end":32623,"text":"還有漏網之魚"},{"start":32623,"end":32627,"text":"第二個是他們的開會的會議紀錄"},{"start":32628.48,"end":32630.48,"text":"最關鍵的7月4號"},{"start":32630.48,"end":32633.48,"text":"在會議當中去決定了"},{"start":32633.48,"end":32637.48,"text":"這個含有問題有品20%以下"},{"start":32637.48,"end":32638.48,"text":"不用下架"},{"start":32639.45,"end":32642.45,"text":"那這樣的一個決議做出來之後"},{"start":32642.45,"end":32643.45,"text":"外面都在追問"},{"start":32643.45,"end":32645.45,"text":"這樣的一個會議紀錄"},{"start":32646.24,"end":32648.24,"text":"為什麼不能公開"},{"start":32648.24,"end":32650.24,"text":"而所有的專家學者"},{"start":32650.24,"end":32656.24,"text":"都用ABCDEF整個代碼去掩蓋"},{"start":32656.24,"end":32658.24,"text":"外界號稱為蓋牌"},{"start":32658.24,"end":32660.24,"text":"7月4號開會"},{"start":32660.24,"end":32663.24,"text":"一直到立法院7月不捨的追查之後"},{"start":32663.24,"end":32665.24,"text":"8月5號"},{"start":32665.63,"end":32670.63,"text":"整整一個月才願意對外公開會議紀錄"},{"start":32670.63,"end":32672.63,"text":"而這個會議紀錄一公開之後"},{"start":32673.37,"end":32676.37,"text":"赫然被發現其中有一位專家學者"},{"start":32676.37,"end":32680.37,"text":"朱彥華今天媒體直接爆出來"},{"start":32680.37,"end":32683.37,"text":"這位專家學者出席關鍵的"},{"start":32683.37,"end":32685.37,"text":"7月4號的會議"},{"start":32685.37,"end":32687.37,"text":"但是他竟然被發現"},{"start":32687.37,"end":32690.37,"text":"跟現在涉案的中聯"},{"start":32690.37,"end":32693.37,"text":"他其實有進到他的場去查場"},{"start":32693.37,"end":32694.37,"text":"而且跟他們參序"},{"start":32694.37,"end":32696.37,"text":"當天是同一天"},{"start":32696.37,"end":32699.37,"text":"跟著中聯的總經理跟廠長"},{"start":32699.37,"end":32701.37,"text":"一起來台北開會"},{"start":32701.37,"end":32702.37,"text":"關係密切"},{"start":32703.31,"end":32706.31,"text":"我現在就要就教我們的提名人了"},{"start":32706.31,"end":32707.31,"text":"第一個"},{"start":32707.56,"end":32712.56,"text":"這個行政單位所邀請的專家學者"},{"start":32712.56,"end":32715.56,"text":"跟廠商關係密切"},{"start":32715.56,"end":32717.56,"text":"可以一起參序"},{"start":32717.56,"end":32718.56,"text":"同車"},{"start":32718.56,"end":32720.56,"text":"然後共同出席會議"},{"start":32720.56,"end":32723.56,"text":"請問他知道整個衛福部有沒有把關"},{"start":32723.56,"end":32727.56,"text":"有沒有做到去篩選這個專家學者"},{"start":32727.56,"end":32729.56,"text":"做到利益迴避的原則"},{"start":32729.56,"end":32731.56,"text":"如果這個專家學者"},{"start":32731.56,"end":32735.56,"text":"他沒有這個跟這個有關聯的廠商"},{"start":32735.56,"end":32736.56,"text":"利益迴避"},{"start":32736.56,"end":32738.56,"text":"甚至他還在會議上面"},{"start":32738.56,"end":32741.56,"text":"就是積極主張20%以下"},{"start":32741.56,"end":32743.56,"text":"還有問題有品的產品"},{"start":32743.56,"end":32746.56,"text":"不用下架主導風向"},{"start":32746.56,"end":32748.56,"text":"你個人怎麼看待這樣的事情"},{"start":32748.56,"end":32750.56,"text":"因為監察員的職責"},{"start":32750.56,"end":32752.56,"text":"是做行政上的一個糾正"},{"start":32752.56,"end":32753.56,"text":"是"},{"start":32753.56,"end":32755.56,"text":"那我就問你沒有利益迴避這件事"},{"start":32755.56,"end":32756.56,"text":"我是覺得如果說"},{"start":32756.56,"end":32757.56,"text":"因為這個專家學者"},{"start":32757.56,"end":32759.56,"text":"應該不是行政官員"},{"start":32759.56,"end":32761.56,"text":"但是如果說"},{"start":32761.56,"end":32763.56,"text":"我問你是衛福部的職責"},{"start":32763.56,"end":32765.56,"text":"對 那我說如果這個衛福部"},{"start":32765.56,"end":32767.56,"text":"他沒有來"},{"start":32767.56,"end":32769.56,"text":"不管是提醒還是事後再開會的時候"},{"start":32769.56,"end":32773.56,"text":"來做這種利益糾葛的一個揭露的話迴避"},{"start":32773.56,"end":32774.56,"text":"我覺得呢"},{"start":32774.56,"end":32778.56,"text":"那衛福部的角色就必須要受到質疑"},{"start":32778.56,"end":32780.56,"text":"那如果說委員所說的"},{"start":32780.56,"end":32782.56,"text":"這個專家學者"},{"start":32782.56,"end":32786.56,"text":"他事實上跟中聯的高層的這種開餐敘啊"},{"start":32786.56,"end":32787.56,"text":"這個同車"},{"start":32787.56,"end":32791.56,"text":"到底跟這個後續審查中聯這個"},{"start":32791.56,"end":32792.56,"text":"就那個會議"},{"start":32792.56,"end":32796.56,"text":"他事實上是有沒有一個關聯性因果性"},{"start":32796.56,"end":32798.56,"text":"我覺得也要來調查清楚"},{"start":32798.56,"end":32801.56,"text":"因為如果說他已經是之前很久了"},{"start":32801.56,"end":32803.56,"text":"那是這樣子的話"},{"start":32803.56,"end":32805.56,"text":"沒有就是當天同車上台北開會"},{"start":32805.56,"end":32807.56,"text":"就開這個會議"},{"start":32807.56,"end":32808.56,"text":"你覺得這樣妥適嗎"},{"start":32808.56,"end":32810.56,"text":"對 如果是當天"},{"start":32810.56,"end":32812.56,"text":"那我不知道那個同車"},{"start":32812.56,"end":32816.56,"text":"到底這個是不是搭便車還是怎麼樣"},{"start":32816.56,"end":32817.56,"text":"不過我覺得呢"},{"start":32817.56,"end":32819.56,"text":"如果是企業提供的車"},{"start":32819.56,"end":32820.56,"text":"那我覺得"},{"start":32820.56,"end":32822.56,"text":"然後在車子裡面"},{"start":32822.56,"end":32825.56,"text":"只有中聯跟這個學者專家的話"},{"start":32825.56,"end":32827.56,"text":"那我覺得就不太適當"},{"start":32827.56,"end":32829.56,"text":"就覺得不太適當"},{"start":32829.56,"end":32831.56,"text":"那如果說在會議當中"},{"start":32831.56,"end":32835.56,"text":"如果這個食藥署這邊沒有做到這個"},{"start":32835.56,"end":32839.56,"text":"提醒這些學者專家要做相關的利益迴避的話"},{"start":32839.56,"end":32841.56,"text":"那我覺得這個就有行政上的一個屬實"},{"start":32841.56,"end":32843.56,"text":"好 所以你會覺得食藥署"},{"start":32843.56,"end":32846.56,"text":"如果沒有積極把關這些專家學者資格"},{"start":32846.56,"end":32847.56,"text":"跟廠商的關係"},{"start":32847.56,"end":32851.56,"text":"而且讓他進入到這麼一個決定性關鍵的專家會議"},{"start":32851.56,"end":32853.56,"text":"那食藥署是不是失職"},{"start":32853.56,"end":32855.56,"text":"對 這個我覺得這個"},{"start":32855.56,"end":32856.56,"text":"確實這樣子"},{"start":32856.56,"end":32858.56,"text":"這樣如果按照這樣子的話"},{"start":32858.56,"end":32860.56,"text":"我覺得是引起社會大眾非常大的疑慮的"},{"start":32860.56,"end":32862.56,"text":"對 好"},{"start":32862.56,"end":32863.56,"text":"那第二個我要問的是"},{"start":32863.56,"end":32866.56,"text":"這麼關鍵的一個會議的會議紀錄"},{"start":32866.56,"end":32868.56,"text":"7月4號召開"},{"start":32868.56,"end":32871.56,"text":"立法院一直詢問追查"},{"start":32871.56,"end":32872.56,"text":"但是都不提供"},{"start":32872.56,"end":32876.56,"text":"到8月5號是因為媒體已經揭露了"},{"start":32876.56,"end":32877.56,"text":"揭露部分"},{"start":32877.56,"end":32880.56,"text":"所以他們應該是紙包不住火"},{"start":32880.56,"end":32882.56,"text":"才被迫提供出來"},{"start":32882.56,"end":32887.56,"text":"一個行政單位我們講求政府應該是公開透明"},{"start":32887.56,"end":32889.56,"text":"這一些專家學者的會議"},{"start":32889.56,"end":32892.56,"text":"如果每一個人的發言都是秉持"},{"start":32892.56,"end":32894.56,"text":"為了國人的食安"},{"start":32894.56,"end":32896.56,"text":"應該可受公平"},{"start":32896.56,"end":32898.56,"text":"也應該拿出來被解釋"},{"start":32898.56,"end":32901.56,"text":"我記得這個後來政府都一直強調"},{"start":32901.56,"end":32904.56,"text":"我們所有的這些會議紀錄"},{"start":32904.56,"end":32906.56,"text":"都一定會上網"},{"start":32906.56,"end":32908.56,"text":"而且就是希望公開"},{"start":32908.56,"end":32910.56,"text":"可受公平 接受監督"},{"start":32910.56,"end":32912.56,"text":"結果衛福部這個會議"},{"start":32912.56,"end":32915.56,"text":"遮遮掩掩了一個月之後才公布"},{"start":32915.56,"end":32918.56,"text":"你作為一個監察委員的提名人"},{"start":32918.56,"end":32921.56,"text":"你針對行政機關有開會"},{"start":32921.56,"end":32923.56,"text":"而且是關鍵性的會議"},{"start":32923.56,"end":32925.56,"text":"但選擇不揭露"},{"start":32925.56,"end":32926.56,"text":"這樣的一個行政權"},{"start":32926.56,"end":32928.56,"text":"不受立法院的監督"},{"start":32928.56,"end":32930.56,"text":"作為一個監察院的提名人"},{"start":32930.56,"end":32932.56,"text":"你認為這樣子合適嗎"},{"start":32932.56,"end":32934.56,"text":"對的 監察委員他"},{"start":32935.24,"end":32937.24,"text":"事實上我認為監察委員"},{"start":32937.24,"end":32939.24,"text":"他就是一個行政的檢察官"},{"start":32939.24,"end":32943.24,"text":"就是說對於行政部分"},{"start":32943.24,"end":32945.24,"text":"如果有失職違法的"},{"start":32945.24,"end":32948.24,"text":"那他就等於是經過調查以後"},{"start":32948.24,"end":32952.24,"text":"然後提出糾舉"},{"start":32952.24,"end":32954.24,"text":"然後送給懲戒法院"},{"start":32954.24,"end":32956.24,"text":"由懲戒法院再來處理"},{"start":32956.24,"end":32959.24,"text":"所以我認為他有點像行政檢察官的角色"},{"start":32959.24,"end":32961.24,"text":"所以行政單位不公開會議"},{"start":32961.24,"end":32962.24,"text":"以及有這個做法"},{"start":32962.24,"end":32964.24,"text":"你覺得需要被糾正嗎"},{"start":32964.24,"end":32966.24,"text":"對 我覺得他如果立案調查的話"},{"start":32966.24,"end":32969.24,"text":"那就應該監察委員就要透過調查權"},{"start":32969.24,"end":32971.24,"text":"來把這些證據收集清楚以後"},{"start":32971.24,"end":32975.24,"text":"如果這個官員確實有違法的話"},{"start":32975.24,"end":32979.24,"text":"那我們當然就是要送這個懲戒法院來做處理"},{"start":32979.24,"end":32982.24,"text":"好 那另外一個我想請教的"},{"start":32982.24,"end":32985.24,"text":"其實不只是現在大豆有出問題"},{"start":32985.24,"end":32988.24,"text":"這個苦茶油到目前為止"},{"start":32988.24,"end":32991.24,"text":"已經有七家廠商驗出來"},{"start":32991.24,"end":32995.24,"text":"他的本田品通通都是超標的"},{"start":32995.24,"end":32998.24,"text":"那所以油品的問題不只大豆有出問題"},{"start":32998.24,"end":33000.24,"text":"苦茶油也出問題"},{"start":33000.24,"end":33002.24,"text":"那苦茶油跟大豆油"},{"start":33002.24,"end":33006.24,"text":"都有包含邊境進來的巴西黃豆"},{"start":33006.24,"end":33009.24,"text":"或者是中國大陸進來的苦茶油漬"},{"start":33009.24,"end":33012.24,"text":"所以他已經是從這個邊境的把關"},{"start":33012.24,"end":33014.24,"text":"源頭的上游就已經出問題"},{"start":33014.24,"end":33017.24,"text":"但是我們的衛福部食藥署"},{"start":33017.24,"end":33019.24,"text":"每一年的經費都是在增加的"},{"start":33019.24,"end":33022.24,"text":"現在一年多的經費已經高達九十億了"},{"start":33022.24,"end":33024.24,"text":"在這樣的情況底下"},{"start":33024.24,"end":33026.24,"text":"你認為接連出現油品事件"},{"start":33026.24,"end":33029.24,"text":"作為主管食安的食藥署"},{"start":33029.24,"end":33032.24,"text":"它是不是源頭把關不力"},{"start":33032.24,"end":33035.24,"text":"對於一個監察院的提名人來講"},{"start":33035.24,"end":33037.24,"text":"你如果看到這樣的一個現象"},{"start":33037.24,"end":33039.24,"text":"會不會主動去立案調查"},{"start":33039.24,"end":33042.24,"text":"去了解到底是哪一個緩解"},{"start":33042.24,"end":33044.24,"text":"行政哪一個緩解出問題"},{"start":33044.24,"end":33045.24,"text":"預算也給了"},{"start":33045.24,"end":33048.24,"text":"但是為什麼我們的食安還接連出包"},{"start":33048.24,"end":33050.24,"text":"我們的食安五環破功"},{"start":33050.24,"end":33053.24,"text":"到底行政單位他在一些積極的"},{"start":33053.24,"end":33055.24,"text":"這個源頭把關"},{"start":33055.24,"end":33057.24,"text":"還有他的行政處理上面"},{"start":33057.24,"end":33058.24,"text":"到底哪些利有未待"},{"start":33058.24,"end":33062.24,"text":"需要行政院要進一步去糾正他們的"},{"start":33062.24,"end":33064.24,"text":"你覺得你作為一個監察院提名人"},{"start":33064.24,"end":33066.24,"text":"你敢去立案調查嗎"},{"start":33066.24,"end":33068.24,"text":"我覺得這個案件造成"},{"start":33068.24,"end":33072.24,"text":"目前台灣民眾非常大的一個恐慌"},{"start":33072.24,"end":33076.24,"text":"我覺得行政單位確實需要來具體說明"},{"start":33076.24,"end":33079.24,"text":"我覺得有違法的確實是當然"},{"start":33080.23,"end":33083.23,"text":"這個監察委員一定要來調查"},{"start":33083.23,"end":33085.23,"text":"這樣子的這個過程當中"},{"start":33085.23,"end":33087.23,"text":"到底行政官員有沒有疏失"},{"start":33087.23,"end":33090.23,"text":"甚至我們的制度面法律面"},{"start":33090.23,"end":33092.23,"text":"有沒有需要要改的地方"},{"start":33092.23,"end":33097.23,"text":"我覺得應該監察院本來就是要反映民意"},{"start":33097.23,"end":33099.23,"text":"透過很多民眾的懲情"},{"start":33099.23,"end":33104.23,"text":"對於這個行政部門有這個缺失的提出調查"},{"start":33104.23,"end":33106.23,"text":"然後來糾正這個問題"},{"start":33106.23,"end":33108.23,"text":"我覺得也是一種"},{"start":33108.23,"end":33112.23,"text":"等於是要去阻民眾的一個疑慮的這個"},{"start":33112.23,"end":33113.23,"text":"那我告訴提名人"},{"start":33113.23,"end":33116.23,"text":"這個案子從這個六月底爆發"},{"start":33116.23,"end":33119.23,"text":"可能第六屆的監委覺得他即將要畢業了"},{"start":33119.23,"end":33121.23,"text":"都沒有人主動立案"},{"start":33121.23,"end":33123.23,"text":"也沒有想要再去管了"},{"start":33123.23,"end":33126.23,"text":"所以這件事情是沒有人立案調查的"},{"start":33126.23,"end":33128.23,"text":"那我們來看一下第六屆監察院"},{"start":33128.23,"end":33129.23,"text":"他行使職權"},{"start":33129.23,"end":33133.23,"text":"他相較於過去其實是呈現一個整個全面"},{"start":33133.23,"end":33135.23,"text":"負成長的趨勢"},{"start":33135.23,"end":33139.23,"text":"包括彈劾案件數下降了18.2%"},{"start":33139.23,"end":33143.23,"text":"然後報告案下降了18.7%"},{"start":33143.23,"end":33147.23,"text":"河派調查數下降了15.73%"},{"start":33147.23,"end":33150.23,"text":"糾正案下降了7.6%"},{"start":33150.23,"end":33154.23,"text":"所以最近為什麼廢除監察院的呼聲再起"},{"start":33154.23,"end":33158.23,"text":"是因為監察院他功能不彰表現不佳"},{"start":33158.23,"end":33161.23,"text":"所以我只能說你們這些被提名人"},{"start":33161.23,"end":33162.23,"text":"有一些"},{"start":33178.51,"end":33180.51,"text":"監察院的行政部長"},{"start":33180.51,"end":33181.51,"text":"打擊你"},{"start":33181.51,"end":33184.51,"text":"所以不在監察院的行政部長上面"},{"start":33184.51,"end":33186.51,"text":"這個要不要大家去跟監察院吃飯"},{"start":33195.77,"end":33197.77,"text":"好 謝謝王委員"},{"start":33200.6,"end":33201.6,"text":"報告全院委員會"},{"start":33201.6,"end":33206.6,"text":"對監察委員被提名人張豐益詢答部分到此為止"},{"start":33206.6,"end":33209.6,"text":"謝謝張被提名人列席答詢"},{"start":33209.6,"end":33212.6,"text":"8月13日星期日上午9時繼續開會"},{"start":33212.6,"end":33215.6,"text":"審查監察委員被提名人"},{"start":33215.6,"end":33220.6,"text":"林慧芳 孫立信 李立芬 陳景俊 彭少景 葉怡君"},{"start":33220.6,"end":33222.6,"text":"資格相關事宜"},{"start":33222.6,"end":33224.6,"text":"現在休息"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}