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專家及各政府機關代表"},{"start":2030.7199999999998,"end":2031.4799999999998,"text":"蒞臨指導"},{"start":2031.86,"end":2033.76,"text":"本次公聽會探討議題"},{"start":2033.76,"end":2035.06,"text":"以提綱為準"},{"start":2035.06,"end":2036.36,"text":"請自行參閱"},{"start":2037.1599999999999,"end":2039.76,"text":"那為什麼我們要舉行這次的"},{"start":2039.8799999999999,"end":2041.3799999999999,"text":"這樣的一個公聽會"},{"start":2041.99,"end":2044.69,"text":"而碳費對一般民眾來講"},{"start":2044.69,"end":2047.71,"text":"事實上是距離感非常陌生的一個名詞"},{"start":2047.71,"end":2050.25,"text":"可是我相信各位應該瞭解到"},{"start":2050.25,"end":2052.39,"text":"褲褲下跟鮑魚造成的災害"},{"start":2052.39,"end":2055.55,"text":"卻是我們每天怯聲要去面對的風險"},{"start":2055.55,"end":2058.15,"text":"這不只是像是天災"},{"start":2058.15,"end":2061.19,"text":"是人類活動所產生的溫室"},{"start":2061.49,"end":2064.71,"text":"氣體在大氣中持續累積"},{"start":2064.89,"end":2069.01,"text":"而且正在加劇暖化跟氣候極端氣候"},{"start":2069.53,"end":2072.73,"text":"那碳費額的核心不是政府多收一筆錢"},{"start":2073.03,"end":2076.73,"text":"而是讓污染不再事實上是免費的"},{"start":2076.73,"end":2079.53,"text":"而且排放者應該要考量的是"},{"start":2079.53,"end":2081.63,"text":"未來世代承擔的"},{"start":2082.14,"end":2083.46,"text":"氣候成本是什麼"},{"start":2084.19,"end":2086.75,"text":"可是污染者的付費"},{"start":2086.75,"end":2089.05,"text":"不能變成是勞工失業"},{"start":2089.05,"end":2092.01,"text":"弱勢生活成本提高"},{"start":2092.56,"end":2095.48,"text":"更不能變成企業繳了錢"},{"start":2095.48,"end":2098.48,"text":"政府又無條件的補回去"},{"start":2098.48,"end":2100.98,"text":"所以今天我最關注的三件事"},{"start":2100.98,"end":2102.48,"text":"排放到底有沒有下降"},{"start":2102.72,"end":2105.68,"text":"還有成本最後誰來承擔"},{"start":2105.92,"end":2109.58,"text":"還有碳費收入到底有沒有讓受到"},{"start":2109.58,"end":2111.98,"text":"衝擊的人得到保障"},{"start":2112.6,"end":2117.72,"text":"甚至有沒有達到我們公正轉型的目標"},{"start":2118.06,"end":2121.22,"text":"所以我覺得碳費可以討論的面向當然不止這些"},{"start":2121.22,"end":2125.3199999999997,"text":"我覺得期待今天匯集到各界的專業意見"},{"start":2125.72,"end":2127.72,"text":"來為我們後續政策"},{"start":2127.72,"end":2129.92,"text":"跟修法經歷更清楚公平的方向"},{"start":2130.16,"end":2132.3199999999997,"text":"也再度的感謝我們的專家學者"},{"start":2132.3199999999997,"end":2133.8199999999997,"text":"今天能夠來與會"},{"start":2135.62,"end":2138.72,"text":"現在介紹現場的在場的委員"},{"start":2138.72,"end":2140.06,"text":"王振旭委員"},{"start":2145.53,"end":2148.23,"text":"接下來介紹我們的專家學者"},{"start":2148.23,"end":2150.8700000000003,"text":"就以現在到的專家學者"},{"start":2150.8700000000003,"end":2153.8300000000004,"text":"環境全保障基金會"},{"start":2153.8300000000004,"end":2155.8300000000004,"text":"湯林祥主任"},{"start":2156.39,"end":2157.6099999999997,"text":"謝謝湯主任"},{"start":2158.85,"end":2163.5499999999997,"text":"私立逢甲大學的魏果燕講座教授"},{"start":2163.5499999999997,"end":2164.75,"text":"謝謝魏教授"},{"start":2166.75,"end":2168.25,"text":"抱歉 台日聯盟還沒到"},{"start":2168.25,"end":2172.55,"text":"中華永續發展交流協會的謝奕騰顧問"},{"start":2172.55,"end":2174.55,"text":"謝謝謝顧問"},{"start":2175.05,"end":2179.25,"text":"理律法律事務所黃海寧律師"},{"start":2179.25,"end":2181.25,"text":"歡迎黃律師"},{"start":2181.25,"end":2184.4500000000003,"text":"國立台灣大學公共事務研究所"},{"start":2184.4500000000003,"end":2186.4500000000003,"text":"李仲軒助理教授"},{"start":2186.4500000000003,"end":2188.4500000000003,"text":"謝謝李教授"},{"start":2189.48,"end":2194.1,"text":"台灣氣候行動網絡林彥廷研究員"},{"start":2194.1,"end":2196.1,"text":"謝謝林研究員"},{"start":2196.75,"end":2201.07,"text":"社團法人媽媽氣候行動聯盟協會"},{"start":2203.1000000000004,"end":2204.1000000000004,"text":"抱歉 還沒到"},{"start":2204.1000000000004,"end":2208.1000000000004,"text":"國立台北科技大學林文穎教授"},{"start":2208.1000000000004,"end":2210.1000000000004,"text":"歡迎林教授"},{"start":2212.11,"end":2214.9300000000003,"text":"台灣健康"},{"start":2215.43,"end":2219.75,"text":"台灣健康空氣行動聯盟葉光鵬創會理事長"},{"start":2220.61,"end":2222.63,"text":"歡迎理事長"},{"start":2222.57,"end":2225.59,"text":"國立台灣大學公共衛生學院"},{"start":2227.53,"end":2230.55,"text":"上軍席專案助理教授"},{"start":2231.48,"end":2234.5,"text":"國立台灣大學公共衛生學院"},{"start":2232.83,"end":2234.83,"text":"歡迎上教授"},{"start":2234.83,"end":2240.83,"text":"中華民國工作受害人協會立媒局秘書長"},{"start":2240.83,"end":2242.83,"text":"歡迎秘書長"},{"start":2245.71,"end":2248.71,"text":"接下來介紹行政機關代表"},{"start":2248.71,"end":2251.71,"text":"我們就不一一每個都介紹"},{"start":2251.71,"end":2255.71,"text":"環境部謝彥儒政務次長"},{"start":2257.44,"end":2260.44,"text":"國家發展委員會綜合規劃處"},{"start":2260.44,"end":2262.44,"text":"蕭玉蓉專門委員"},{"start":2263.63,"end":2266.65,"text":"經濟部綜合規劃師劉玉蘭專門委員"},{"start":2268.98,"end":2272,"text":"財政部國庫署劉秀卿科長"},{"start":2273.38,"end":2276.4,"text":"內政部建築研究所徐燕心副所長"},{"start":2278.93,"end":2282.95,"text":"衛生福利部綜合規劃師林千元副市長"},{"start":2285.02,"end":2289.04,"text":"勞動部勞動關係師許耕奎專門委員"},{"start":2290.86,"end":2294.88,"text":"農業部資源永續利用師黃興達市長"},{"start":2297.11,"end":2301.13,"text":"交通部綜合規劃師楊茂生簡略秘書"},{"start":2303.37,"end":2307.37,"text":"數位發展部數位產業署通訊傳播組"},{"start":2307.37,"end":2309.37,"text":"謝孟儒簡略事長"},{"start":2312.28,"end":2316.3,"text":"文化部綜合規劃師王慧文專門委員"},{"start":2317.71,"end":2323.73,"text":"金融監督管理委員會證券期貨局蔡雅雯專門委員"},{"start":2325.34,"end":2329.36,"text":"原住民族委員會經濟發展處張信良副處長"},{"start":2332.93,"end":2336.95,"text":"接下來我們請環境部代表報告時間10分鐘"},{"start":2348.78,"end":2352.8,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生"},{"start":2378.78,"end":2382.8,"text":"後續我用簡報來跟大家報告"},{"start":2383.17,"end":2385.19,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":2385.65,"end":2387.67,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":2387.64,"end":2391.66,"text":"那碳費制度在114年就正式上路"},{"start":2417.64,"end":2419.66,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":2419.27,"end":2423.27,"text":"那麼在115年今年5月首次繳費完成"},{"start":2423.27,"end":2425.27,"text":"總共有461場"},{"start":2425.27,"end":2428.27,"text":"那這是有240家的企業"},{"start":2428.27,"end":2432.27,"text":"那麼在整個的金額我們目前有49.7億元"},{"start":2432.27,"end":2436.27,"text":"那麼我們評估在目前的法規輔導"},{"start":2436.27,"end":2440.27,"text":"申報自主減量與繳費制度也都逐漸完備"},{"start":2440.27,"end":2442.27,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":2443.35,"end":2447.35,"text":"那我們從目前的收費對象來分析"},{"start":2447.35,"end":2453.35,"text":"461場裡面整個的列管排放量占全國近排放量的5成"},{"start":2453.35,"end":2457.35,"text":"同時主要的行業大概有鋼鐵石化半導體"},{"start":2457.35,"end":2459.35,"text":"煉油及水泥等等"},{"start":2459.35,"end":2463.35,"text":"這些超過列管排放量的80%"},{"start":2463.85,"end":2466.85,"text":"那我們碳費制度是以減量為核心"},{"start":2466.85,"end":2468.85,"text":"那並不是一個財政的工具"},{"start":2468.85,"end":2474.85,"text":"那我們收費對象就是連排放量達2.5萬噸以上的這個"},{"start":2474.85,"end":2477.85,"text":"電力燃氣供應以及製造業"},{"start":2477.85,"end":2479.85,"text":"那從今年的5月起要繳費"},{"start":2479.85,"end":2481.85,"text":"那同時計算的一些方式"},{"start":2481.85,"end":2484.85,"text":"包括高單洩漏風險行業"},{"start":2484.85,"end":2486.85,"text":"排放量調整係數等等"},{"start":2486.85,"end":2489.85,"text":"還有我們是這樣的分期來調整"},{"start":2489.87,"end":2493.87,"text":"那兼顧這個轉型與產業的競爭力"},{"start":2493.87,"end":2495.87,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":2496.37,"end":2499.37,"text":"我們在自主減量計畫搭配減量目標的指定"},{"start":2499.37,"end":2501.37,"text":"這個當中呢"},{"start":2501.37,"end":2503.37,"text":"如果碳費的徵收對象"},{"start":2503.37,"end":2505.37,"text":"有轉換低碳燃料等等"},{"start":2505.37,"end":2508.37,"text":"使用這個有效的減量措施"},{"start":2508.37,"end":2511.37,"text":"那可以提出自主減量計畫"},{"start":2511.37,"end":2514.37,"text":"向中央主管機關申請核定優惠費率"},{"start":2514.37,"end":2516.37,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":2516.33,"end":2520.33,"text":"那麼在114年總共有430廠提出"},{"start":2520.33,"end":2523.33,"text":"那最後核定了402廠"},{"start":2523.33,"end":2526.33,"text":"那如果以到目標年119年來講的話"},{"start":2526.33,"end":2530.33,"text":"每年可以減少4,520萬噸的二氧化碳當量"},{"start":2530.33,"end":2534.33,"text":"那如果以產業別這邊來看"},{"start":2534.33,"end":2536.33,"text":"這些資料請大家參考"},{"start":2536.33,"end":2540.33,"text":"那主要是以轉換低碳燃料這邊"},{"start":2540.33,"end":2541.33,"text":"還有改善製程"},{"start":2541.33,"end":2543.33,"text":"還有提升能源效率"},{"start":2543.33,"end":2545.33,"text":"使用再生能源等方式"},{"start":2545.33,"end":2547.35,"text":"來做一個減碳"},{"start":2549.24,"end":2550.24,"text":"那我們要特別注意"},{"start":2550.24,"end":2552.24,"text":"就是每年要達成指定的目標"},{"start":2552.24,"end":2554.24,"text":"才能持續適用這個優惠費率"},{"start":2554.24,"end":2556.24,"text":"這個過程大家可以看"},{"start":2556.24,"end":2558.24,"text":"就是選擇指定目標之後"},{"start":2558.24,"end":2560.24,"text":"提出自主減量計畫"},{"start":2560.24,"end":2561.24,"text":"達成目標"},{"start":2561.24,"end":2562.24,"text":"那會有一個適用費率"},{"start":2562.24,"end":2563.24,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":2564.49,"end":2567.49,"text":"那我們也會依法查核自主減量計畫的執行進度"},{"start":2567.49,"end":2571.49,"text":"因為這個在我們的自主減量計畫管理辦法"},{"start":2571.49,"end":2573.49,"text":"明定查核作業的機制裡面"},{"start":2573.49,"end":2576.49,"text":"包括限期改善計畫費值"},{"start":2576.49,"end":2580.49,"text":"查核追繳還有資料保存等等都有規定"},{"start":2580.49,"end":2581.49,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":2582.52,"end":2585.52,"text":"同時自主減量計畫要公開揭露"},{"start":2585.52,"end":2587.52,"text":"讓社會檢視承諾跟進度"},{"start":2587.52,"end":2589.52,"text":"當然我們最主要是核定的期間優惠費率"},{"start":2589.52,"end":2591.52,"text":"排放基準 年度目標"},{"start":2591.52,"end":2593.52,"text":"以及減量措施"},{"start":2593.52,"end":2594.52,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":2595.63,"end":2598.63,"text":"各界關心的一個就是碳費費率的調整評估"},{"start":2598.63,"end":2601.63,"text":"那麼其實在我們第一屆的費利審議委員會"},{"start":2601.63,"end":2602.63,"text":"有一個決議"},{"start":2602.63,"end":2604.63,"text":"就一個長期碳費的費率"},{"start":2604.63,"end":2606.63,"text":"也就是2030年以後"},{"start":2606.63,"end":2609.63,"text":"可以參考國際碳價的水準"},{"start":2609.63,"end":2614.63,"text":"那定於這個每噸1200到1800元台幣之間"},{"start":2614.63,"end":2617.63,"text":"那麼再回推碳費費率分階段進行調整"},{"start":2617.63,"end":2621.63,"text":"這個是第一屆的一個碳費審議委員會裡面"},{"start":2621.63,"end":2622.63,"text":"做了一個決議"},{"start":2622.65,"end":2626.65,"text":"同時我們環境部也會審慎評估第二階段"},{"start":2626.65,"end":2628.65,"text":"碳費的費率"},{"start":2628.65,"end":2630.65,"text":"這包括到我們這一期"},{"start":2630.65,"end":2632.65,"text":"自主減量計畫的減量效果"},{"start":2632.65,"end":2634.65,"text":"還有整體的這些經濟"},{"start":2634.65,"end":2636.65,"text":"還有物價水準等等"},{"start":2636.65,"end":2639.65,"text":"這些來做審慎評估第二階段碳費的費率"},{"start":2639.65,"end":2641.65,"text":"在此同時"},{"start":2641.65,"end":2644.65,"text":"其實另外的一個碳進價制度"},{"start":2644.65,"end":2647.65,"text":"也就是歐盟有一個碳排放的交易制度"},{"start":2647.65,"end":2650.65,"text":"我們也密切觀察他的目前的一些進度"},{"start":2650.67,"end":2653.67,"text":"當然這個在跟他們原來的預估進度裡面"},{"start":2653.67,"end":2656.67,"text":"也因應了國際的經濟發展"},{"start":2656.67,"end":2657.67,"text":"也做一些調整"},{"start":2657.67,"end":2659.67,"text":"這些請參考"},{"start":2662.48,"end":2664.5,"text":"我們目前對於"},{"start":2666.22,"end":2673.22,"text":"我們目前採取的就是一個試行"},{"start":2673.22,"end":2677.22,"text":"我們希望建立完整的ETS的運作體系"},{"start":2677.22,"end":2680.22,"text":"那麼形成有效的碳定價的訊號"},{"start":2680.22,"end":2682.22,"text":"那等等包括到"},{"start":2682.22,"end":2685.22,"text":"最主要是能夠跟國際接軌的這部分"},{"start":2685.22,"end":2686.22,"text":"那我們分階段"},{"start":2686.22,"end":2688.22,"text":"在2025年是奠定基礎"},{"start":2688.22,"end":2690.22,"text":"我們是碳費就已經開始"},{"start":2690.22,"end":2691.22,"text":"那同時我們有"},{"start":2691.22,"end":2693.22,"text":"綠色成長聯盟"},{"start":2693.22,"end":2695.22,"text":"加7月126個潮"},{"start":2695.24,"end":2697.24,"text":"那跟歐洲的能源交易所"},{"start":2697.24,"end":2699.24,"text":"也簽署了MOU"},{"start":2699.24,"end":2702.24,"text":"那2026今年我們會做試行的準備"},{"start":2702.24,"end":2704.24,"text":"明年做試行的計畫"},{"start":2704.24,"end":2706.24,"text":"那2028年也是試行的交易"},{"start":2706.24,"end":2708.24,"text":"我們是逐步的來做試行"},{"start":2708.24,"end":2711.24,"text":"當然這目前是以既有的碳費制度"},{"start":2711.24,"end":2713.24,"text":"跟綠色成長聯盟"},{"start":2713.24,"end":2715.24,"text":"這126廠這邊為基礎"},{"start":2715.24,"end":2719.24,"text":"來逐步建立交易能力跟價格訊號"},{"start":2721.13,"end":2723.13,"text":"那同時其實我們對於"},{"start":2723.13,"end":2727.13,"text":"各個產業我們也擴大自願減量機制"},{"start":2727.13,"end":2729.13,"text":"讓這個自願減量專案"},{"start":2729.13,"end":2731.13,"text":"能夠來"},{"start":2731.46,"end":2733.46,"text":"通過還有把這個"},{"start":2733.46,"end":2734.46,"text":"碳的來源"},{"start":2734.46,"end":2736.46,"text":"減碳的來源也增加起來"},{"start":2736.46,"end":2738.46,"text":"那目前我們合計註冊案"},{"start":2738.46,"end":2740.46,"text":"預估可以減量"},{"start":2740.46,"end":2742.46,"text":"66萬多公噸的"},{"start":2742.46,"end":2744.46,"text":"氨化碳的排放當量"},{"start":2745.22,"end":2746.24,"text":"請參考"},{"start":2748.4,"end":2750.4,"text":"那同時大家關心的就自然碳匯的"},{"start":2750.4,"end":2752.4,"text":"一個自願減量專案"},{"start":2752.4,"end":2755.4,"text":"目前在方法學案件"},{"start":2755.4,"end":2757.4,"text":"還有通過的審查中的"},{"start":2757.4,"end":2758.4,"text":"請大家參考"},{"start":2758.4,"end":2761.4,"text":"預估碳匯的量合計匯"},{"start":2761.4,"end":2765.4,"text":"19586噸的一個氨化碳當量"},{"start":2765.4,"end":2768.4,"text":"詳細的這些名稱請參考"},{"start":2768.4,"end":2769.4,"text":"下頁"},{"start":2770.2,"end":2772.2,"text":"那各界的關心就是說"},{"start":2772.2,"end":2774.2,"text":"在碳匯增收之後"},{"start":2774.2,"end":2775.2,"text":"如何來管理"},{"start":2775.2,"end":2777.2,"text":"那我們按照目前的"},{"start":2777.2,"end":2778.2,"text":"氣候變遷因法等等"},{"start":2778.2,"end":2780.2,"text":"由溫室氣體管理基金"},{"start":2780.2,"end":2782.2,"text":"那也就依照"},{"start":2782.2,"end":2784.2,"text":"依照這個母法授權"},{"start":2784.2,"end":2785.2,"text":"成立這個基金"},{"start":2785.2,"end":2787.2,"text":"那同時他是特種基金"},{"start":2787.2,"end":2789.2,"text":"那我們也訂定了授事管理辦法"},{"start":2789.2,"end":2791.2,"text":"那這個會報行這邊訂資"},{"start":2791.2,"end":2793.2,"text":"那同時在這個"},{"start":2793.2,"end":2796.2,"text":"行政院114年1月10號也修訂"},{"start":2796.2,"end":2798.2,"text":"這包括基金的來源用途"},{"start":2798.22,"end":2801.22,"text":"等等也都來按照這個規劃來辦理修正"},{"start":2801.22,"end":2802.22,"text":"下頁"},{"start":2803.66,"end":2804.66,"text":"在這個"},{"start":2804.66,"end":2806.66,"text":"溫室氣體管理基金"},{"start":2806.66,"end":2809.66,"text":"專攻直緊溫室氣體減量及氣候變遷調制的運用"},{"start":2809.66,"end":2810.66,"text":"他的用途在"},{"start":2810.66,"end":2813.66,"text":"氣候變遷應法33條裡面有明確規定"},{"start":2813.66,"end":2815.66,"text":"那麼其中在第一項的"},{"start":2815.66,"end":2817.66,"text":"第二款跟第五款"},{"start":2817.66,"end":2820.66,"text":"跟第13款因為涉及補助獎勵"},{"start":2820.66,"end":2823.66,"text":"所以他的這個對象申請資格等等"},{"start":2823.66,"end":2824.66,"text":"這個由中央指揮官機關"},{"start":2824.66,"end":2827.66,"text":"再訂一個補助辦法"},{"start":2827.66,"end":2828.66,"text":"下頁"},{"start":2830.49,"end":2833.49,"text":"那我們在整個運用方面有分四個部分"},{"start":2833.49,"end":2836.49,"text":"一個是減量技術跟調適的補助"},{"start":2836.49,"end":2839.49,"text":"淨零轉型跟金融的支持"},{"start":2839.49,"end":2841.49,"text":"地方政府減量行動"},{"start":2841.49,"end":2844.49,"text":"而且公正轉型的一個支持這四大部分"},{"start":2844.49,"end":2846.49,"text":"那第一部分我們是依據這個"},{"start":2846.49,"end":2848.49,"text":"115年的7月4號"},{"start":2848.49,"end":2850.49,"text":"發布了補助辦法"},{"start":2850.49,"end":2852.49,"text":"後續會陸陸續續的"},{"start":2852.49,"end":2855.49,"text":"受理的各界依照這個補助辦法來提出"},{"start":2855.49,"end":2856.49,"text":"補助的案件"},{"start":2856.49,"end":2859.49,"text":"那同時在我們以這個"},{"start":2859.5099999999998,"end":2861.5099999999998,"text":"信用保證跟利息補貼"},{"start":2861.5099999999998,"end":2864.5099999999998,"text":"來協助業界來充實這個"},{"start":2864.5099999999998,"end":2867.5099999999998,"text":"減碳的設備還有這些措施"},{"start":2867.5099999999998,"end":2869.5099999999998,"text":"同時第三項是很重要的"},{"start":2869.5099999999998,"end":2871.5099999999998,"text":"地方政府的減量行動"},{"start":2871.5099999999998,"end":2874.5099999999998,"text":"那麼我們要跟中央地方來協力合作"},{"start":2874.5099999999998,"end":2877.5099999999998,"text":"那地方政府主要是依據這個"},{"start":2877.5099999999998,"end":2879.5099999999998,"text":"減量執行的方案"},{"start":2879.5099999999998,"end":2882.5099999999998,"text":"還有我們配合中央的六大部門的"},{"start":2882.5099999999998,"end":2883.5099999999998,"text":"行動方案"},{"start":2883.5099999999998,"end":2885.5099999999998,"text":"地方協力的部分"},{"start":2885.5099999999998,"end":2886.5099999999998,"text":"那依法來提出"},{"start":2886.53,"end":2890.53,"text":"那第四個是大家非常重視的這個公正轉型"},{"start":2890.53,"end":2893.53,"text":"那我們目前這部分是由國發會"},{"start":2893.53,"end":2896.53,"text":"那麼擬定這個相關的一個申請"},{"start":2896.53,"end":2898.53,"text":"跟管考作業要點"},{"start":2898.53,"end":2900.53,"text":"那目前也應該即將來通過"},{"start":2900.53,"end":2903.53,"text":"那可以來優先支持受轉型影響的"},{"start":2903.53,"end":2906.53,"text":"勞工產業地區跟群體等等"},{"start":2906.53,"end":2908.53,"text":"那我這裡補充其實"},{"start":2908.53,"end":2910.53,"text":"這碳費的部分是部分的經費"},{"start":2910.53,"end":2913.53,"text":"其實各部會在做這個"},{"start":2913.53,"end":2915.53,"text":"淨零轉型的公正轉型方面"},{"start":2915.55,"end":2917.55,"text":"各部會也有編列預算"},{"start":2917.55,"end":2919.55,"text":"這個是來補各部會的不足"},{"start":2919.55,"end":2920.55,"text":"好 下頁"},{"start":2922.0099999999998,"end":2924.0099999999998,"text":"那我們來講這個碳費"},{"start":2924.0099999999998,"end":2927.0099999999998,"text":"目前減量是以碳費是以減量為核心"},{"start":2927.0099999999998,"end":2930.0099999999998,"text":"那我們會以綠色成長跟ETS來"},{"start":2930.0099999999998,"end":2931.0099999999998,"text":"奠定基礎"},{"start":2931.0099999999998,"end":2934.0099999999998,"text":"這最主要就是全球方面"},{"start":2934.0099999999998,"end":2937.0099999999998,"text":"已經有80個國家實施碳定價"},{"start":2937.0099999999998,"end":2940.0099999999998,"text":"那碳定價當然包括碳費碳稅還有ETS"},{"start":2940.0099999999998,"end":2942.0099999999998,"text":"那我國參考歐盟"},{"start":2942.0099999999998,"end":2944.0099999999998,"text":"日本韓國跟新加坡經驗"},{"start":2944.0099999999998,"end":2946.0099999999998,"text":"最主要是要兼顧國際的"},{"start":2946.0099999999998,"end":2948.0099999999998,"text":"國內產業的國際競爭力"},{"start":2948.0099999999998,"end":2950.0099999999998,"text":"來協助產業的低碳轉型"},{"start":2950.03,"end":2952.03,"text":"另外在碳費制度開始之後"},{"start":2952.03,"end":2954.03,"text":"已經有效帶動"},{"start":2954.03,"end":2956.03,"text":"那未來方向我們是"},{"start":2956.03,"end":2958.03,"text":"是一個經濟誘因"},{"start":2958.03,"end":2961.03,"text":"希望能夠促成台灣綠色成長的動能"},{"start":2961.03,"end":2964.03,"text":"那下一步我們就是在"},{"start":2964.03,"end":2966.03,"text":"穩健調整費率"},{"start":2966.03,"end":2967.03,"text":"落實年度查核"},{"start":2967.03,"end":2969.03,"text":"跟銜接ETS的市情制度"},{"start":2969.03,"end":2970.03,"text":"下頁"},{"start":2970.72,"end":2972.74,"text":"以上報告盡情各位知道"},{"start":2973.83,"end":2975.85,"text":"謝謝我們的政務次長"},{"start":2977.19,"end":2980.19,"text":"本次會議部會及學者專家"},{"start":2980.19,"end":2983.19,"text":"所提供的相關書面資料"},{"start":2983.19,"end":2985.19,"text":"均列入記錄刊登公報"},{"start":2985.19,"end":2987.19,"text":"與會人員發言前"},{"start":2987.19,"end":2989.19,"text":"先宣告一下事項"},{"start":2989.19,"end":2991.19,"text":"第一 學者專家及本院委員"},{"start":2991.19,"end":2993.19,"text":"每位發言時間6分鐘"},{"start":2993.74,"end":2995.74,"text":"二 為簡報方便"},{"start":2995.74,"end":2997.74,"text":"學者專家發言前請至"},{"start":2997.74,"end":2999.74,"text":"主席台右邊的發言台"},{"start":2999.74,"end":3001.74,"text":"那三 原則上由學者專家"},{"start":3001.74,"end":3003.74,"text":"先行依簽到順序發言"},{"start":3003.74,"end":3006.74,"text":"委員如要發言請到主席台登記"},{"start":3006.74,"end":3008.74,"text":"我們會依委員登記發言順序"},{"start":3008.74,"end":3010.74,"text":"及專家學者發言順序"},{"start":3010.74,"end":3012.74,"text":"交錯安排進行"},{"start":3012.74,"end":3014.74,"text":"四 全部人員發言完畢後"},{"start":3014.74,"end":3017.74,"text":"再請行政機關做整體回應"},{"start":3017.74,"end":3019.74,"text":"我們暫定10點30分"},{"start":3019.74,"end":3021.74,"text":"休息10分鐘"},{"start":3021.7599999999998,"end":3023.7599999999998,"text":"現在我們請登記第一位的"},{"start":3023.7599999999998,"end":3025.7599999999998,"text":"中華永續發展交流協會"},{"start":3025.7599999999998,"end":3027.7599999999998,"text":"顧問謝懿騰"},{"start":3038.19,"end":3042.19,"text":"主席 委員各位先進大家好"},{"start":3042.19,"end":3044.19,"text":"那我"},{"start":3045.51,"end":3047.53,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":3049.67,"end":3051.67,"text":"有阿嘆回覆給我"},{"start":3051.67,"end":3053.67,"text":"各位"},{"start":3053.34,"end":3055.36,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":3055.98,"end":3058,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":3058.35,"end":3060.37,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":3061,"end":3063.02,"text":"我在電影裡"},{"start":3066.99,"end":3069.0099999999998,"text":"那是不是要先"},{"start":3069.12,"end":3071.14,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":3070.02,"end":3072.04,"text":"那我們就先"},{"start":3072.31,"end":3074.31,"text":"處理一下簡報"},{"start":3074.31,"end":3076.31,"text":"我們先請第二位"},{"start":3076.31,"end":3078.31,"text":"我們先接下來請環境全"},{"start":3078.31,"end":3080.31,"text":"保障基金會的"},{"start":3080.56,"end":3082.58,"text":"湯琳祥主任"},{"start":3091.21,"end":3093.21,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位在場先進"},{"start":3093.21,"end":3095.21,"text":"大家早"},{"start":3095.21,"end":3097.21,"text":"今天我們討論的這個碳費的機制"},{"start":3097.21,"end":3099.21,"text":"以及碳費的收入的運用"},{"start":3099.21,"end":3101.21,"text":"那關於這個我們就要去看一下"},{"start":3101.21,"end":3103.21,"text":"按一下這套"},{"start":3103.21,"end":3105.21,"text":"這一套機制的"},{"start":3105.21,"end":3106.21,"text":"同時的作用"},{"start":3106.21,"end":3108.21,"text":"到底能不能幫我們達到減碳"},{"start":3108.21,"end":3110.21,"text":"而且能夠是一個持續性的減碳"},{"start":3110.21,"end":3112.21,"text":"那下一頁"},{"start":3111.07,"end":3113.09,"text":"好"},{"start":3114.23,"end":3116.23,"text":"好"},{"start":3116.23,"end":3118.23,"text":"那在我們談"},{"start":3118.23,"end":3120.23,"text":"碳費這整套機制的時候"},{"start":3120.23,"end":3122.23,"text":"其實我們要看到碳定價這個機制"},{"start":3122.23,"end":3125.23,"text":"它有兩個減碳的效果"},{"start":3125.23,"end":3127.23,"text":"一個是所謂的誘因的改變"},{"start":3127.23,"end":3129.23,"text":"另外一個就是我們收到的這筆碳費"},{"start":3129.23,"end":3130.23,"text":"如何再投入"},{"start":3130.23,"end":3132.23,"text":"然後再促成更多的減量"},{"start":3132.23,"end":3134.23,"text":"那目前我們很明顯的看到"},{"start":3134.23,"end":3136.23,"text":"誘因的改變這個確實已經造成了"},{"start":3136.23,"end":3138.23,"text":"一個很巨大的效果了"},{"start":3138.23,"end":3140.23,"text":"那目前我們透過這些"},{"start":3140.23,"end":3142.23,"text":"這些廠商去"},{"start":3142.25,"end":3144.25,"text":"我們可以預估到2030年"},{"start":3144.25,"end":3146.25,"text":"最多可以減掉4520萬噸"},{"start":3146.25,"end":3148.25,"text":"那這是一個非常大的數字"},{"start":3148.25,"end":3149.25,"text":"所以這是一個"},{"start":3149.25,"end":3151.25,"text":"說實在這是一個非常有成效的效果"},{"start":3151.25,"end":3153.25,"text":"這點我們還是要給予環境部"},{"start":3153.25,"end":3154.25,"text":"非常大的肯定"},{"start":3154.25,"end":3156.25,"text":"那不過我們現在還有另外一個"},{"start":3156.25,"end":3157.25,"text":"很重要的一個環"},{"start":3157.25,"end":3159.25,"text":"就是我們看到左邊"},{"start":3159.25,"end":3161.25,"text":"所謂收入再投入"},{"start":3161.25,"end":3163.25,"text":"目前我們如何透過收入再投入"},{"start":3163.25,"end":3166.25,"text":"增加減量的效果是還不那麼明顯的"},{"start":3168.28,"end":3170.28,"text":"好 那碳定價要如何有效"},{"start":3170.28,"end":3172.28,"text":"其實它有幾個非常重要的前提"},{"start":3172.28,"end":3174.28,"text":"那第一個當然就是"},{"start":3174.28,"end":3175.28,"text":"這些排碳的事業"},{"start":3175.28,"end":3176.28,"text":"它一定要認知到"},{"start":3176.28,"end":3178.28,"text":"未來的碳定價會持續上漲"},{"start":3178.28,"end":3180.28,"text":"所以才會去促進他們現在"},{"start":3180.28,"end":3182.28,"text":"就趕快先做低碳的投資"},{"start":3182.28,"end":3184.28,"text":"如果他覺得未來不會上漲"},{"start":3184.28,"end":3185.28,"text":"會有很多不確定性"},{"start":3185.28,"end":3186.28,"text":"他就不會投資"},{"start":3186.28,"end":3187.28,"text":"他也不會減碳"},{"start":3187.28,"end":3189.28,"text":"所以碳定價的政策"},{"start":3189.28,"end":3191.28,"text":"因此要釋放出未來"},{"start":3191.28,"end":3193.28,"text":"還是要持續上漲的價格訊號"},{"start":3193.28,"end":3195.28,"text":"這個非常的重要"},{"start":3195.28,"end":3197.28,"text":"但是我們要持續的釋出這個重要的"},{"start":3197.3,"end":3199.3,"text":"上漲的價格訊號"},{"start":3199.3,"end":3201.3,"text":"一定要有一個更重要的事情"},{"start":3201.3,"end":3203.3,"text":"是碳定價要獲得更多社會的支持"},{"start":3203.3,"end":3205.3,"text":"才有持續上漲的空間"},{"start":3205.3,"end":3206.3,"text":"那剛才主席也有提到說"},{"start":3206.3,"end":3208.3,"text":"其實大部分的民眾對於碳費"},{"start":3208.3,"end":3209.3,"text":"是比較沒有感覺的"},{"start":3209.3,"end":3211.3,"text":"所以我們現在比較可惜的是"},{"start":3211.3,"end":3213.3,"text":"大部分的民眾聽到碳費"},{"start":3213.3,"end":3215.3,"text":"或是我們新聞輿論在談碳費的時候"},{"start":3215.3,"end":3217.3,"text":"大部分都還是從一個"},{"start":3217.3,"end":3218.3,"text":"會造成綠色通膨"},{"start":3218.3,"end":3220.3,"text":"大家的生活負擔成本會增加"},{"start":3220.3,"end":3222.3,"text":"這樣的想法去談"},{"start":3222.3,"end":3226.3,"text":"所以而且同時也沒有很多的產業"},{"start":3226.32,"end":3227.32,"text":"因此受惠"},{"start":3227.32,"end":3229.32,"text":"所以轉而去支持碳定價"},{"start":3229.32,"end":3232.32,"text":"那其實這是一個不太好的現象"},{"start":3232.32,"end":3233.32,"text":"不太好的發展"},{"start":3233.32,"end":3236.32,"text":"我們再看到其實在歐盟這樣子"},{"start":3236.32,"end":3238.32,"text":"實施ETS比較長期的國家裡面"},{"start":3238.32,"end":3240.32,"text":"其實他們已經慢慢的掌出"},{"start":3240.32,"end":3241.32,"text":"有一些產業"},{"start":3241.32,"end":3243.32,"text":"他們已經把他們的投資"},{"start":3243.32,"end":3245.32,"text":"他們已經加入了減碳的投資的行列"},{"start":3245.32,"end":3247.32,"text":"所以他們會在乎自己的"},{"start":3247.32,"end":3248.32,"text":"減碳投資的利益"},{"start":3248.32,"end":3250.32,"text":"所以當碳定價要往上漲的時候"},{"start":3250.32,"end":3252.32,"text":"他們是至少不會出來反對"},{"start":3252.32,"end":3254.32,"text":"甚至會站出來支持的"},{"start":3254.34,"end":3256.34,"text":"所以我們一直強調"},{"start":3256.34,"end":3257.34,"text":"碳定價的機制"},{"start":3257.34,"end":3259.34,"text":"要持續的創造社會支持"},{"start":3259.34,"end":3260.34,"text":"也是很重要"},{"start":3260.34,"end":3261.34,"text":"那我們相信這很大的一部分"},{"start":3261.34,"end":3265.34,"text":"是必須來自於碳費的再投入"},{"start":3265.34,"end":3267.34,"text":"那我們縱觀全世界"},{"start":3267.34,"end":3268.34,"text":"大部分的國家"},{"start":3268.34,"end":3270.34,"text":"他們所使用的碳定價收入"},{"start":3270.34,"end":3271.34,"text":"其實有很多種的目的"},{"start":3271.34,"end":3275.34,"text":"包括最多的還是減碳投資的補助"},{"start":3275.34,"end":3277.34,"text":"其次公正轉型是一定會談到的"},{"start":3277.34,"end":3279.34,"text":"同時他們也會有相當多的國家"},{"start":3279.34,"end":3280.34,"text":"會把碳費"},{"start":3280.34,"end":3282.34,"text":"或者是他們的碳交易的收入"},{"start":3282.36,"end":3284.36,"text":"用來補貼弱勢"},{"start":3284.36,"end":3286.36,"text":"或是直接回饋一般家戶"},{"start":3286.36,"end":3287.36,"text":"當然也有一些國家會"},{"start":3287.36,"end":3288.36,"text":"因為他們是稅的關係"},{"start":3288.36,"end":3290.36,"text":"可是他們可能會直接納入一般的預算"},{"start":3290.36,"end":3292.36,"text":"去做統籌的使用"},{"start":3292.36,"end":3294.36,"text":"另外調式跟自然解放的投資"},{"start":3294.36,"end":3295.36,"text":"也是現在開始"},{"start":3295.36,"end":3297.36,"text":"慢慢有很多國家會採取的目的"},{"start":3298.91,"end":3299.91,"text":"接下來我們就來介紹"},{"start":3299.91,"end":3301.91,"text":"幾個比較經典的case"},{"start":3301.91,"end":3303.91,"text":"來去談如何去放大"},{"start":3303.91,"end":3306.91,"text":"這個收入的減碳效果"},{"start":3306.91,"end":3307.91,"text":"其中最重要的最具代表性"},{"start":3307.91,"end":3308.91,"text":"當然就是失心最久"},{"start":3308.91,"end":3310.91,"text":"而且規模最大的歐盟ETS"},{"start":3310.91,"end":3313.91,"text":"那它2024年來說"},{"start":3313.91,"end":3315.91,"text":"它收入就達到了3800億元"},{"start":3315.91,"end":3316.91,"text":"然後他們有的歐元"},{"start":3316.91,"end":3318.91,"text":"那它有非常多的這個"},{"start":3318.91,"end":3320.91,"text":"不同的用途在這邊"},{"start":3320.91,"end":3322.91,"text":"那其中我特別要去強調的是"},{"start":3322.91,"end":3324.91,"text":"它其中有很大一部分錢"},{"start":3324.91,"end":3326.91,"text":"會撥入這個歐盟創新基金裡面"},{"start":3326.93,"end":3328.93,"text":"那以2020到2024年來說"},{"start":3328.93,"end":3331.93,"text":"它投資的大概會70億歐元"},{"start":3331.93,"end":3335.93,"text":"那其中它每年會分兩次召集"},{"start":3335.93,"end":3337.93,"text":"就是呼籲各全歐盟的企業"},{"start":3337.93,"end":3340.93,"text":"可以來向它投這個補助的專案"},{"start":3340.93,"end":3342.93,"text":"大型的專案一案可能會到"},{"start":3342.93,"end":3344.93,"text":"8800萬到1.21億歐元"},{"start":3344.93,"end":3345.93,"text":"那小型的專案呢"},{"start":3345.93,"end":3347.93,"text":"在200萬到600萬歐元左右"},{"start":3347.93,"end":3351.93,"text":"那目前它到2024年底"},{"start":3351.93,"end":3354.93,"text":"已經預期可以減掉4.25億噸的"},{"start":3355.97,"end":3356.97,"text":"二氧化碳當量"},{"start":3356.97,"end":3357.97,"text":"那這筆錢是用來幹嘛"},{"start":3357.97,"end":3361.97,"text":"它就是幫助那些很難減碳的企業"},{"start":3361.97,"end":3364.97,"text":"去做低碳的創新技術的開發"},{"start":3364.97,"end":3365.97,"text":"跟商業化"},{"start":3365.97,"end":3367.97,"text":"所以他們會集中支持一些項目"},{"start":3367.97,"end":3369.97,"text":"例如說能源密集型產業的脫碳"},{"start":3369.97,"end":3372.97,"text":"包括像鋼鐵石化水泥這一種"},{"start":3372.97,"end":3373.97,"text":"那當然還有他們的"},{"start":3373.97,"end":3374.97,"text":"加速再生能源發展"},{"start":3374.97,"end":3377.97,"text":"氫能儲能碳捕捉"},{"start":3377.97,"end":3381.97,"text":"CCUS跟這種零碳運居跟建築的發展"},{"start":3381.97,"end":3383.97,"text":"那這個是"},{"start":3384.33,"end":3387.33,"text":"好就是人類密集產業的"},{"start":3387.33,"end":3389.33,"text":"預期減碳的效果"},{"start":3389.33,"end":3390.33,"text":"我們看到這是一個"},{"start":3390.33,"end":3393.33,"text":"這艘船是他們正在發展的一種"},{"start":3393.33,"end":3395.33,"text":"透過加入風力的效果"},{"start":3395.33,"end":3398.33,"text":"讓它的讓這個貨輪可以減少"},{"start":3398.33,"end":3401.33,"text":"一些能耗的一個贊助的專案"},{"start":3401.33,"end":3403.33,"text":"那關於前面是一個關於"},{"start":3403.33,"end":3406.33,"text":"投資減碳補助的一種方案"},{"start":3406.33,"end":3408.33,"text":"那接下來我們要看加州的ETS"},{"start":3408.33,"end":3409.33,"text":"它達到另外一種效果"},{"start":3409.33,"end":3412.33,"text":"就是它透過氣候的投資分配"},{"start":3412.35,"end":3415.35,"text":"要求這個你的這個補助的專案"},{"start":3415.35,"end":3416.35,"text":"必須要至少有35%"},{"start":3416.35,"end":3418.35,"text":"用在讓弱勢跟低收入戶"},{"start":3418.35,"end":3420.35,"text":"社區受益的專案"},{"start":3420.35,"end":3422.35,"text":"那這個要求其實就非常的好"},{"start":3422.35,"end":3423.35,"text":"所以我們可以看到"},{"start":3423.35,"end":3425.35,"text":"加州ETS的投資專案"},{"start":3425.35,"end":3426.35,"text":"其實非常非常的廣"},{"start":3426.35,"end":3428.35,"text":"非常非常的多"},{"start":3428.35,"end":3429.35,"text":"比如說這個例如說"},{"start":3429.35,"end":3431.35,"text":"讓他們讓低收入戶"},{"start":3431.35,"end":3433.35,"text":"可以住進節能的住宅"},{"start":3433.35,"end":3434.35,"text":"那這很重要"},{"start":3434.35,"end":3436.35,"text":"因為像台灣有很多獨居的長者"},{"start":3436.35,"end":3438.35,"text":"他們住在通風不良好的地方"},{"start":3438.35,"end":3441.35,"text":"所以他們他們要花很多的電費"},{"start":3441.37,"end":3443.37,"text":"甚至他們根本可能沒有冷氣"},{"start":3443.37,"end":3445.37,"text":"然後房間非常的悶熱"},{"start":3445.37,"end":3446.37,"text":"可是如果讓低收入戶"},{"start":3446.37,"end":3447.37,"text":"住進這樣的節能住宅"},{"start":3447.37,"end":3449.37,"text":"就可以大幅的改善他們的生活環境"},{"start":3449.37,"end":3451.37,"text":"而且不用付那麼多的電費"},{"start":3451.37,"end":3454.37,"text":"好 例如說在像這個"},{"start":3454.37,"end":3456.37,"text":"農業工人的共存計劃"},{"start":3456.37,"end":3457.37,"text":"它的意思就是說"},{"start":3457.37,"end":3458.37,"text":"因為我們知道在加州"},{"start":3458.37,"end":3460.37,"text":"有很多農業的移工"},{"start":3460.37,"end":3463.37,"text":"那這些移工他們要怎麼樣到達農地"},{"start":3463.37,"end":3465.37,"text":"其實他們會需要有車載"},{"start":3465.37,"end":3467.37,"text":"那這個如果車子載他們的方式"},{"start":3467.37,"end":3470.37,"text":"能夠改用比較像這邊是使用hybrid的"},{"start":3470.39,"end":3472.39,"text":"就是電油混合的方式"},{"start":3472.39,"end":3475.39,"text":"就可以減掉這個粗型的這個減碳"},{"start":3475.39,"end":3476.39,"text":"那其實這個效果"},{"start":3476.39,"end":3480.39,"text":"跟對於這一群移工來說"},{"start":3480.39,"end":3482.39,"text":"其實是非常有幫助的"},{"start":3482.39,"end":3485.39,"text":"所以我們可以從加州ETS的贊助的項目"},{"start":3485.39,"end":3487.39,"text":"來看到很多樣的"},{"start":3487.39,"end":3490.39,"text":"對於低碳 同時有低碳"},{"start":3490.39,"end":3492.39,"text":"而且是對於弱勢的群體"},{"start":3492.39,"end":3494.39,"text":"有非常多幫助的專案"},{"start":3494.39,"end":3496.39,"text":"所以這是非常值得借鏡的一個地方"},{"start":3496.39,"end":3498.39,"text":"那以上我講了"},{"start":3500.0099999999998,"end":3502.0099999999998,"text":"好 日本也正在進行碳稅"},{"start":3502.0099999999998,"end":3504.0099999999998,"text":"那同時韓國也有ETS"},{"start":3504.0099999999998,"end":3506.0099999999998,"text":"那今年韓國ETS在修法的時候"},{"start":3506.0099999999998,"end":3507.0099999999998,"text":"氣候法在修法的時候"},{"start":3507.0099999999998,"end":3509.0099999999998,"text":"其實有一個非常重要的關鍵"},{"start":3509.0099999999998,"end":3510.0099999999998,"text":"就是它也加強了"},{"start":3510.0099999999998,"end":3513.0099999999998,"text":"要對於弱勢群體的這個支持"},{"start":3513.0099999999998,"end":3516.0099999999998,"text":"所以他們也會把他們的碳定價收入"},{"start":3516.0099999999998,"end":3520.0099999999998,"text":"一部分的比例去加強投入在弱勢群體上"},{"start":3520.0099999999998,"end":3521.0099999999998,"text":"好 那最後我們就"},{"start":3521.0099999999998,"end":3522.0099999999998,"text":"我最後要談"},{"start":3522.0099999999998,"end":3524.0099999999998,"text":"台灣的碳費收入適合是用在哪裡的"},{"start":3524.0099999999998,"end":3526.0099999999998,"text":"首先我們要去先確認"},{"start":3526.0099999999998,"end":3528.0099999999998,"text":"我們這筆錢要用在哪裡"},{"start":3528.03,"end":3530.03,"text":"那如果我們要直接投入加速減碳的話"},{"start":3530.03,"end":3532.03,"text":"那就應該要參考"},{"start":3532.03,"end":3533.03,"text":"盡可能的去參考"},{"start":3533.03,"end":3535.03,"text":"歐盟的創新基金裡面"},{"start":3535.03,"end":3538.03,"text":"對於那些高碳牌產業的補助"},{"start":3538.03,"end":3539.03,"text":"那如果我們要創造"},{"start":3539.03,"end":3542.03,"text":"社會對碳定價的正面支持的話"},{"start":3542.03,"end":3544.03,"text":"那我們可能可以參考的對象"},{"start":3544.03,"end":3546.03,"text":"就是加州的ETS的那種做法"},{"start":3546.03,"end":3548.03,"text":"那目前我們不建議的做法"},{"start":3548.03,"end":3550.03,"text":"是沒有設條件的直接去"},{"start":3550.03,"end":3553.03,"text":"就是回去對繳碳費的這些企業做補助"},{"start":3553.03,"end":3555.03,"text":"這是最不適合的"},{"start":3555.03,"end":3557.03,"text":"那其次是我們"},{"start":3557.05,"end":3559.05,"text":"用碳性的比例來補助地方政府"},{"start":3559.05,"end":3561.05,"text":"這可能也不是一個那麼好的做法"},{"start":3561.05,"end":3563.05,"text":"再來就是去補助其他部會"},{"start":3563.05,"end":3565.05,"text":"一些沒有明確減碳或調適效益的項目"},{"start":3565.05,"end":3567.05,"text":"這也不是那麼適合"},{"start":3567.05,"end":3569.05,"text":"那最後我們建議的用途就是"},{"start":3569.05,"end":3571.05,"text":"必須要優先投入在"},{"start":3571.05,"end":3572.05,"text":"加速難減碳"},{"start":3572.05,"end":3574.05,"text":"也就是剛跟我提到的鋼鐵石化"},{"start":3574.05,"end":3577.05,"text":"水泥這些產業轉型的偵測工具"},{"start":3577.05,"end":3578.05,"text":"所以我們會建議碳費"},{"start":3578.05,"end":3580.05,"text":"其實可以用在補貼"},{"start":3580.05,"end":3582.05,"text":"他們去做低碳公共採購的"},{"start":3582.05,"end":3583.05,"text":"這個綠色溢價"},{"start":3583.05,"end":3586.05,"text":"或者是推動所謂的碳差價合約"},{"start":3586.07,"end":3587.07,"text":"那也要去鼓勵這些事業"},{"start":3587.07,"end":3589.07,"text":"能夠去投入"},{"start":3589.07,"end":3590.07,"text":"投資新的減碳技術"},{"start":3590.07,"end":3592.07,"text":"因為這個投資其實不是一個簡單的事情"},{"start":3592.07,"end":3595.07,"text":"它必須要有買方去買單"},{"start":3595.07,"end":3597.07,"text":"那它也要去承擔這個資金的風險"},{"start":3597.07,"end":3599.07,"text":"所以碳費拿出來"},{"start":3599.07,"end":3601.07,"text":"做一個幫他們減碳"},{"start":3601.07,"end":3603.07,"text":"減低這個風險"},{"start":3603.07,"end":3605.07,"text":"加速他們低碳轉型的這個做法"},{"start":3605.07,"end":3607.07,"text":"其實我覺得是合理的"},{"start":3607.07,"end":3609.07,"text":"那我們也應該優先鼓勵投入在"},{"start":3609.07,"end":3611.07,"text":"有填詐性跟有些風險性"},{"start":3611.07,"end":3613.07,"text":"難度比較高的減碳技術建設"},{"start":3613.07,"end":3615.07,"text":"例如說氫能以及CCUS的基礎建設"},{"start":3615.09,"end":3617.09,"text":"最後我們其實也可以參考加州的例子"},{"start":3617.09,"end":3619.09,"text":"去推動一些兼具福利性質"},{"start":3619.09,"end":3621.09,"text":"同時有減碳跟調適的效果的"},{"start":3621.09,"end":3623.09,"text":"一些實驗性的政策"},{"start":3623.09,"end":3624.09,"text":"例如說我這邊舉了幾個例子"},{"start":3624.09,"end":3627.09,"text":"我們可以補提供能源貧窮家戶的"},{"start":3627.09,"end":3628.09,"text":"一些節能家庭"},{"start":3628.09,"end":3630.09,"text":"家電的租賃補助"},{"start":3630.09,"end":3631.09,"text":"或者是維修券"},{"start":3632.31,"end":3633.31,"text":"或者是我們可以"},{"start":3633.31,"end":3635.31,"text":"之前我也可能有在一些場合提過"},{"start":3635.31,"end":3636.31,"text":"環境部可以考慮"},{"start":3636.31,"end":3639.31,"text":"直接用他們那些淨零綠生活的政策"},{"start":3639.31,"end":3641.31,"text":"去提供所謂的淨零幣"},{"start":3641.31,"end":3643.31,"text":"我們現在看到很多部會都提出自己的幣"},{"start":3643.31,"end":3645.31,"text":"那其實這個對於大家認識碳費"},{"start":3645.31,"end":3647.31,"text":"認識淨零我覺得是非常有用的"},{"start":3647.31,"end":3648.31,"text":"好 最後我要談到說"},{"start":3648.31,"end":3650.31,"text":"我們不要讓淨零帶來"},{"start":3650.31,"end":3652.31,"text":"只有綠色銅棚"},{"start":3652.31,"end":3654.31,"text":"專心就只有這些在生能源廠商"},{"start":3654.31,"end":3656.31,"text":"社會 其實我們要讓更多人"},{"start":3656.31,"end":3658.31,"text":"有收到這個"},{"start":3658.42,"end":3660.42,"text":"碳費帶來的效果"},{"start":3660.42,"end":3662.42,"text":"以上 謝謝"},{"start":3662.33,"end":3664.33,"text":"好 謝謝唐主任的發言"},{"start":3664.33,"end":3666.33,"text":"現在我們補充介紹"},{"start":3666.33,"end":3670.33,"text":"剛剛才到中央研究院經濟研究所"},{"start":3670.33,"end":3672.33,"text":"蕭代基研究員"},{"start":3673.06,"end":3675.08,"text":"歡迎你"},{"start":3674.93,"end":3679.95,"text":"碳稅聯盟的潘漢生共同發起人"},{"start":3679.95,"end":3681.97,"text":"歡迎"},{"start":3681.67,"end":3683.69,"text":"接下來"},{"start":3683.17,"end":3685.17,"text":"來 回到我們剛剛"},{"start":3685.17,"end":3688.17,"text":"中華永續發展交流協會的謝意騰顧"},{"start":3693.14,"end":3695.16,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":3714.69,"end":3716.71,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":3730.52,"end":3733.52,"text":"主席 各位經濟 各位委員大家好"},{"start":3733.52,"end":3737.52,"text":"不好意思 那我就我現在的"},{"start":3738.94,"end":3741.94,"text":"部分來做一個快速的說明"},{"start":3741.94,"end":3745.94,"text":"那我對於碳費的歸兵入境的理論"},{"start":3745.94,"end":3749.94,"text":"原則上我提出了現在法律上大家討論的"},{"start":3749.94,"end":3752.94,"text":"然後第二個我對監管的部分"},{"start":3752.94,"end":3756.94,"text":"嚴禁假稅修 徵歸幣的部分來做進行討論"},{"start":3756.94,"end":3758.94,"text":"然後第三個是政策優先的劃分"},{"start":3758.94,"end":3760.94,"text":"然後與績效的建議"},{"start":3761.22,"end":3765.24,"text":"那現在目前大家都知道有廠商用"},{"start":3766.15,"end":3770.15,"text":"那個規避的方式來作為外包的碳費計算"},{"start":3770.15,"end":3773.15,"text":"這個是研究學者大家都在討論"},{"start":3773.15,"end":3775.15,"text":"但是他只是直接上面的一端"},{"start":3775.15,"end":3779.15,"text":"因為我們現在的碳費的計算原則上都"},{"start":3779.15,"end":3782.15,"text":"傾向於所謂的排放源 直接排放源"},{"start":3782.15,"end":3784.15,"text":"跟間接排放源電力的部分"},{"start":3784.15,"end":3786.15,"text":"來作為計算而已"},{"start":3788.25,"end":3790.25,"text":"我們現在的產能有可能"},{"start":3790.25,"end":3793.25,"text":"實務上現在可能是產能有過剩"},{"start":3793.25,"end":3795.25,"text":"然後他會採用外包"},{"start":3795.25,"end":3798.25,"text":"然後讓整個碳的計價的部分"},{"start":3798.25,"end":3801.25,"text":"是核算部分是下來的"},{"start":3801.25,"end":3804.25,"text":"那讓怎麼讓過載的產能"},{"start":3804.25,"end":3807.25,"text":"或者是設備維修等轉嫁的部分"},{"start":3807.25,"end":3810.25,"text":"在於制度或者是轉嫁的機制上面"},{"start":3810.25,"end":3813.25,"text":"或法律和稅務風險的部分"},{"start":3813.25,"end":3816.25,"text":"複雜互動裡面找出一個平衡"},{"start":3816.52,"end":3820.52,"text":"那我現在目前的碳費管理辦法裡面的要求"},{"start":3820.52,"end":3822.52,"text":"他第12條裡面有規定"},{"start":3822.52,"end":3826.52,"text":"就是進貨或生產或銷貨的評偵要做"},{"start":3827.33,"end":3828.35,"text":"所謂的"},{"start":3828.94,"end":3830.94,"text":"接了有調查權的義務"},{"start":3830.94,"end":3834.94,"text":"那現在目前很難判斷說"},{"start":3834.94,"end":3837.94,"text":"他是不是實質上的詭異"},{"start":3837.94,"end":3840.94,"text":"那我的建議就是申報外包"},{"start":3840.94,"end":3841.94,"text":"並主動"},{"start":3842.66,"end":3845.66,"text":"外包的碳製成數據作為"},{"start":3845.66,"end":3847.66,"text":"碳費的策略因應方案"},{"start":3847.66,"end":3850.66,"text":"在法規合理性跟數據的治理性"},{"start":3850.66,"end":3852.66,"text":"跟工廠商的架構上面"},{"start":3854.49,"end":3856.49,"text":"來對抗所謂的飄率行為"},{"start":3856.49,"end":3858.49,"text":"那這個部分原則上是"},{"start":3858.49,"end":3861.49,"text":"目前可以透過製成數據"},{"start":3861.49,"end":3863.49,"text":"跟交易發票跟物流清單"},{"start":3863.49,"end":3866.49,"text":"來作為所謂的尾外行為的"},{"start":3866.49,"end":3868.49,"text":"一個商業的實質監控"},{"start":3869.84,"end":3871.84,"text":"那目前實務上的運作"},{"start":3871.84,"end":3875.84,"text":"我建議就是把所有的尾外太空"},{"start":3875.84,"end":3876.84,"text":"因為"},{"start":3877.55,"end":3879.55,"text":"製成有直接排放的部分"},{"start":3879.55,"end":3882.55,"text":"納入所謂的碳數據揭露條款"},{"start":3882.55,"end":3885.55,"text":"譬如在於外包合約上面"},{"start":3885.55,"end":3887.55,"text":"可以做一個"},{"start":3887.55,"end":3890.55,"text":"如同我講我的簡報上面這樣"},{"start":3890.55,"end":3892.55,"text":"就是說你的電力耗損"},{"start":3892.55,"end":3893.55,"text":"你的燃料用量"},{"start":3893.55,"end":3895.55,"text":"和經第三方排放的部分"},{"start":3895.55,"end":3897.55,"text":"保留數據提供給第三方"},{"start":3897.55,"end":3899.55,"text":"或者是出主管機關"},{"start":3899.55,"end":3901.55,"text":"做查核使用"},{"start":3901.55,"end":3902.55,"text":"然後第二個"},{"start":3902.55,"end":3904.55,"text":"建議外包數據"},{"start":3904.23,"end":3906.23,"text":"來作為雙向勾集的目錄"},{"start":3906.23,"end":3908.23,"text":"因為這個部分可以"},{"start":3908.23,"end":3911.23,"text":"減少企業跟街道的"},{"start":3911.23,"end":3913.23,"text":"實際數據跟"},{"start":3913.23,"end":3915.23,"text":"廠商產生數據的差異"},{"start":3915.23,"end":3916.23,"text":"可以直接來作為"},{"start":3916.67,"end":3917.67,"text":"查核機制"},{"start":3917.67,"end":3919.67,"text":"然後第二點"},{"start":3919.67,"end":3921.67,"text":"就是我們要怎麼監管機關"},{"start":3921.67,"end":3922.67,"text":"為什麼要怎麼"},{"start":3922.67,"end":3925.67,"text":"就是禁止假稅修正規避的部分"},{"start":3925.67,"end":3928.67,"text":"其實做法很簡單的東西"},{"start":3928.67,"end":3930.67,"text":"就是你把你現在"},{"start":3930.67,"end":3933.67,"text":"應該要做的部分"},{"start":3933.67,"end":3934.67,"text":"自主減量的管理計畫"},{"start":3936.16,"end":3938.18,"text":"如果你當時候有申請外包"},{"start":3939.65,"end":3941.65,"text":"然後你要揭露你的數據"},{"start":3941.65,"end":3943.65,"text":"然後遵從財務法尊的部分"},{"start":3943.65,"end":3945.65,"text":"來作為優先的一個方案處理"},{"start":3945.65,"end":3947.65,"text":"這個才會達到說"},{"start":3947.65,"end":3949.65,"text":"邊境縮減"},{"start":3950.39,"end":3952.39,"text":"然後即減少碳費"},{"start":3952.39,"end":3954.39,"text":"然後再來供應鏈數據透明化"},{"start":3954.39,"end":3957.39,"text":"維護我們現在大家所說的"},{"start":3957.39,"end":3960.39,"text":"EESG的名聲"},{"start":3960.39,"end":3962.39,"text":"雙軌跡的一個方向"},{"start":3963.72,"end":3964.72,"text":"然後第三個"},{"start":3964.72,"end":3966.72,"text":"我們雲澤上現在的財政劃分"},{"start":3966.72,"end":3968.72,"text":"我提供三個建議"},{"start":3968.72,"end":3969.72,"text":"第一個"},{"start":3969.72,"end":3972.72,"text":"現在所有的大企業資源表"},{"start":3973.07,"end":3975.07,"text":"那對於中小企業"},{"start":3975.07,"end":3977.07,"text":"他光能力跟資金"},{"start":3977.07,"end":3978.07,"text":"有時候他做完盤查"},{"start":3978.07,"end":3980.07,"text":"他就沒有所謂的資源了"},{"start":3980.07,"end":3982.07,"text":"他根本沒有能力去撰寫"},{"start":3982.07,"end":3984.07,"text":"所謂的補助型計畫"},{"start":3984.07,"end":3986.07,"text":"所以我建議採用"},{"start":3986.07,"end":3988.07,"text":"專款分尺的制度"},{"start":3988.07,"end":3990.07,"text":"來作為碳費回饋"},{"start":3990.07,"end":3992.07,"text":"用在中小企業專款裡面"},{"start":3992.07,"end":3996.07,"text":"然後讓大企業的自籌款比例增加"},{"start":3997.57,"end":3999.57,"text":"然後第二個問題"},{"start":3999.57,"end":4002.57,"text":"就是公正轉型的部分的指標"},{"start":4002.57,"end":4004.57,"text":"我建議就是法定"},{"start":4004.57,"end":4006.57,"text":"專用的部分的預算"},{"start":4006.57,"end":4008.57,"text":"能有固定比例的部分"},{"start":4008.57,"end":4011.57,"text":"對於公正轉型跟弱勢浮足的部分"},{"start":4011.57,"end":4013.57,"text":"獨立運作"},{"start":4013.57,"end":4014.57,"text":"因為不參與任何的"},{"start":4014.57,"end":4016.57,"text":"減碳績效的競爭"},{"start":4016.57,"end":4018.57,"text":"不想排擠到那個效果"},{"start":4018.57,"end":4020.57,"text":"那我建議就用ROI的"},{"start":4020.57,"end":4022.57,"text":"社會投資的部分來作為評估"},{"start":4022.57,"end":4024.57,"text":"你投入100萬元"},{"start":4024.57,"end":4025.57,"text":"那你有創造多少的"},{"start":4025.57,"end":4026.57,"text":"綠色就業機會"},{"start":4026.59,"end":4028.59,"text":"或者是說區域轉型"},{"start":4028.59,"end":4030.59,"text":"高碳排擠時化聚落"},{"start":4030.59,"end":4032.59,"text":"那他就定的GDP裡面"},{"start":4032.59,"end":4034.59,"text":"到底有多少"},{"start":4034.59,"end":4035.59,"text":"然後再來就是"},{"start":4035.59,"end":4037.59,"text":"建議跨部會的部分的合作"},{"start":4037.59,"end":4040.59,"text":"然後來支持整個碳的轉型"},{"start":4040.59,"end":4041.59,"text":"然後第三個"},{"start":4041.59,"end":4043.59,"text":"資源過渡的部分"},{"start":4043.59,"end":4044.59,"text":"進程的部分"},{"start":4044.59,"end":4047.59,"text":"是大家都想要做的"},{"start":4047.59,"end":4048.59,"text":"但是我建議"},{"start":4049.53,"end":4051.53,"text":"就是採用雙軌制"},{"start":4051.53,"end":4052.53,"text":"就是有一些地區"},{"start":4052.53,"end":4055.53,"text":"他本來就是氣候變遷的"},{"start":4055.53,"end":4056.53,"text":"脆弱指標"},{"start":4057.63,"end":4059.63,"text":"那就透過這些脆弱指標"},{"start":4059.63,"end":4062.63,"text":"來作為基礎建設的防洪"},{"start":4062.63,"end":4065.63,"text":"或者是土石流的警範區"},{"start":4065.63,"end":4067.63,"text":"或者是高熱島嶼的部分"},{"start":4068.48,"end":4069.48,"text":"然後第三個就是"},{"start":4069.48,"end":4070.48,"text":"專案的結構化"},{"start":4070.48,"end":4072.48,"text":"這個部分原則上在法律上面"},{"start":4072.48,"end":4073.48,"text":"我們是可以去"},{"start":4073.48,"end":4075.48,"text":"強制主管機關去做"},{"start":4076.81,"end":4078.81,"text":"帶來老民的收益的穩定"},{"start":4078.81,"end":4081.81,"text":"就是你透過農業認定性去做"},{"start":4081.84,"end":4083.84,"text":"那我針對這三個的部分"},{"start":4083.84,"end":4084.84,"text":"那感謝大家"},{"start":4084.84,"end":4086.84,"text":"這是我個人的純屬建議"},{"start":4086.84,"end":4087.84,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4088.12,"end":4090.12,"text":"好 謝謝我們的顧問"},{"start":4090.12,"end":4092.12,"text":"接下來請我們的"},{"start":4093.27,"end":4094.27,"text":"不好意思"},{"start":4094.27,"end":4096.27,"text":"我先補充剛到場的"},{"start":4096.27,"end":4100.27,"text":"社團法人媽媽氣候行動聯盟協會"},{"start":4100.27,"end":4101.27,"text":"黃品涵秘書長"},{"start":4102.16,"end":4103.18,"text":"歡迎"},{"start":4103.32,"end":4105.34,"text":"接下來請我們王振旭委員"},{"start":4115.830000000001,"end":4116.830000000001,"text":"好 主席"},{"start":4116.830000000001,"end":4118.830000000001,"text":"我們各位行政機關的代表"},{"start":4119.59,"end":4121.59,"text":"各位學者專家大家好"},{"start":4121.59,"end":4125.59,"text":"首先我要針對環境部在7月21號"},{"start":4125.59,"end":4128.59,"text":"預告修正的碳費收費辦法"},{"start":4128.59,"end":4131.59,"text":"還有自主減量管理辦法"},{"start":4131.59,"end":4133.59,"text":"計畫管理辦法裡面"},{"start":4133.59,"end":4137.59,"text":"增加了首次納管事業單位的碳費申報"},{"start":4137.59,"end":4140.59,"text":"繳納及自主減量計畫"},{"start":4140.59,"end":4143.59,"text":"提出現期可延後一年試用"},{"start":4144.06,"end":4147.06,"text":"還有高碳洩漏風險事業"},{"start":4147.06,"end":4151.06,"text":"得以掀起專案減量額度抵扣碳費"},{"start":4151.06,"end":4153.06,"text":"等兩項配套以後"},{"start":4153.06,"end":4156.06,"text":"所引發我們很多環保團體的質疑"},{"start":4156.06,"end":4160.06,"text":"而且普遍的認為延後一年的"},{"start":4160.06,"end":4162.06,"text":"的確能夠讓事業單位有"},{"start":4162.06,"end":4164.06,"text":"更充裕的時間來做準備"},{"start":4164.06,"end":4167.06,"text":"但是呢 這樣的緩衝跟彈性"},{"start":4167.06,"end":4170.06,"text":"不應該再加上對碳費繳交的減免"},{"start":4170.660000000001,"end":4173.660000000001,"text":"以及也提出未來是否應該區分過去"},{"start":4173.660000000001,"end":4177.660000000001,"text":"既有工廠跟未來新建工廠的相關的建議"},{"start":4177.660000000001,"end":4179.660000000001,"text":"那對於這一部分"},{"start":4179.660000000001,"end":4181.660000000001,"text":"本席希望對於碳費這樣"},{"start":4181.660000000001,"end":4185.660000000001,"text":"攸關我國產業跟環境重大的政策"},{"start":4185.660000000001,"end":4187.660000000001,"text":"如果有要進行調整"},{"start":4187.660000000001,"end":4190.660000000001,"text":"或者是增加配套的話"},{"start":4190.660000000001,"end":4193.660000000001,"text":"特別是涉及碳費收費標準"},{"start":4193.660000000001,"end":4195.660000000001,"text":"或者是收費方式的調整"},{"start":4195.660000000001,"end":4198.660000000001,"text":"那應該要公開這些調整"},{"start":4198.68,"end":4203.68,"text":"對於整體減碳入境跟產業的影響評估"},{"start":4203.68,"end":4206.68,"text":"讓這個影響評估跟資訊的公開"},{"start":4206.68,"end":4208.68,"text":"能夠成為"},{"start":4208.46,"end":4210.46,"text":"檢討碳費收費標準"},{"start":4210.46,"end":4212.46,"text":"跟收費方式的必要前提"},{"start":4212.46,"end":4214.46,"text":"那同時我們也希望"},{"start":4215.8,"end":4219.8,"text":"環境部除了能夠聽取產業界的聲音以外"},{"start":4219.8,"end":4222.8,"text":"也要和我國相關的民間團體"},{"start":4222.8,"end":4225.8,"text":"還有這麼多的環保團體來保持溝通"},{"start":4225.8,"end":4228.8,"text":"盡量讓相關政策的決策"},{"start":4228.8,"end":4230.8,"text":"能夠充分的溝通以後"},{"start":4230.8,"end":4232.8,"text":"爭取最大的共識"},{"start":4232.8,"end":4234.8,"text":"減少相關的阻力"},{"start":4234.8,"end":4235.8,"text":"再來"},{"start":4235.8,"end":4238.8,"text":"我有兩項跟碳費還有減碳政策相關"},{"start":4238.8,"end":4241.8,"text":"而且會涉及到跨部會的合作"},{"start":4241.8,"end":4243.8,"text":"希望環境部能夠加強"},{"start":4243.8,"end":4247.820000000001,"text":"和勞動部還有衛福部跟經濟部的合作"},{"start":4249.46,"end":4250.46,"text":"首先"},{"start":4250.46,"end":4252.46,"text":"在我國朝向"},{"start":4252.52,"end":4255.52,"text":"盡力碳排政策目標前進的同時"},{"start":4255.52,"end":4257.52,"text":"無可避免的"},{"start":4257.52,"end":4259.52,"text":"像剛剛我們的專家所提到的"},{"start":4259.52,"end":4263.52,"text":"有些產業需要面臨到轉型的挑戰"},{"start":4263.52,"end":4266.52,"text":"那也相信不是所有的單位"},{"start":4266.52,"end":4268.52,"text":"都能夠順利的走到最後"},{"start":4268.52,"end":4270.52,"text":"所以在這個過程裡面"},{"start":4270.52,"end":4272.52,"text":"難免會有事業單位"},{"start":4272.52,"end":4274.52,"text":"可能會選擇退場"},{"start":4274.52,"end":4277.52,"text":"而相應的就會有勞工失業的問題"},{"start":4277.52,"end":4279.52,"text":"那尤其我們看到"},{"start":4279.540000000001,"end":4282.540000000001,"text":"最近在高雄針對石化產業"},{"start":4282.540000000001,"end":4285.540000000001,"text":"如何能夠轉型或者是升級"},{"start":4285.540000000001,"end":4287.540000000001,"text":"有很多很多的討論"},{"start":4287.540000000001,"end":4290.540000000001,"text":"那這是我們應該要特別重視的問題"},{"start":4290.540000000001,"end":4292.540000000001,"text":"如果沒有妥善的"},{"start":4293.150000000001,"end":4295.150000000001,"text":"好的政策來協助的話"},{"start":4295.150000000001,"end":4297.150000000001,"text":"對於後續"},{"start":4297.150000000001,"end":4299.150000000001,"text":"要持續推動減碳"},{"start":4299.150000000001,"end":4301.150000000001,"text":"就會有更大的社會的阻力"},{"start":4301.150000000001,"end":4303.150000000001,"text":"因此環境部要如何"},{"start":4303.150000000001,"end":4305.150000000001,"text":"加強跟勞動部合作"},{"start":4305.150000000001,"end":4307.150000000001,"text":"落實公正轉型"},{"start":4307.150000000001,"end":4310.150000000001,"text":"協助在可能受碳費"},{"start":4310.150000000001,"end":4313.150000000001,"text":"還有減碳政策衝擊的勞工"},{"start":4313.150000000001,"end":4315.150000000001,"text":"能夠透過質詢"},{"start":4315.150000000001,"end":4317.150000000001,"text":"或者是配合企業轉型"},{"start":4317.150000000001,"end":4318.150000000001,"text":"等模式"},{"start":4318.150000000001,"end":4320.150000000001,"text":"順利的轉換到下一份的工作"},{"start":4320.150000000001,"end":4322.150000000001,"text":"像是朝綠林"},{"start":4322.17,"end":4325.17,"text":"相關的工作培訓或者是轉型"},{"start":4325.17,"end":4328.17,"text":"會是接下來要請環境部"},{"start":4328.17,"end":4330.17,"text":"更加努力協助的部分"},{"start":4330.17,"end":4331.17,"text":"那這一部分"},{"start":4331.17,"end":4333.17,"text":"剛剛我們的專家學者都有提到"},{"start":4333.17,"end":4334.17,"text":"再來"},{"start":4334.17,"end":4337.17,"text":"只是要請環境部來加強"},{"start":4337.17,"end":4340.17,"text":"跟衛福部還有經濟部合作的面向"},{"start":4340.17,"end":4344.17,"text":"那如果以目前政策規劃的方向來看"},{"start":4344.17,"end":4346.17,"text":"未來或許有一天"},{"start":4346.17,"end":4349.17,"text":"會需要討論是否要將醫療的產業"},{"start":4349.1900000000005,"end":4352.1900000000005,"text":"也要納入碳費徵收的對象"},{"start":4352.1900000000005,"end":4355.1900000000005,"text":"因為我一直以來都是在醫院服務"},{"start":4355.1900000000005,"end":4357.1900000000005,"text":"那目前我們先以福島醫院"},{"start":4357.1900000000005,"end":4359.1900000000005,"text":"來進行碳盤查"},{"start":4359.1900000000005,"end":4362.1900000000005,"text":"並且鼓勵自主節能減碳為主"},{"start":4362.1900000000005,"end":4366.1900000000005,"text":"因此我們還是希望環境部在醫療"},{"start":4367.990000000001,"end":4371.990000000001,"text":"的醫院節能減碳還有回收在利用的部分"},{"start":4371.990000000001,"end":4373.990000000001,"text":"能夠加強和衛福部"},{"start":4373.990000000001,"end":4375.990000000001,"text":"以及與經濟部的合作"},{"start":4375.990000000001,"end":4379.990000000001,"text":"依據我們詢問到經濟部能源署"},{"start":4379.990000000001,"end":4380.990000000001,"text":"所得到的資料"},{"start":4380.990000000001,"end":4384.990000000001,"text":"目前到111年到114年的SCO"},{"start":4384.990000000001,"end":4386.990000000001,"text":"節能補助針對醫院"},{"start":4386.990000000001,"end":4388.990000000001,"text":"一共補助了32家"},{"start":4388.990000000001,"end":4392.990000000001,"text":"如果再參考衛福部114年的統計"},{"start":4392.990000000001,"end":4394.990000000001,"text":"我國的醫院的加速其實"},{"start":4394.990000000001,"end":4396.990000000001,"text":"總共達到460家"},{"start":4397.01,"end":4401.01,"text":"所以整體醫院受到SCO協助的比例來說"},{"start":4401.01,"end":4405.01,"text":"其實真的還是有很大的進步的空間"},{"start":4405.01,"end":4408.01,"text":"那同時就我在醫療第一線的理解"},{"start":4408.01,"end":4412.01,"text":"公立醫院受制於預算的編列"},{"start":4412.01,"end":4416.01,"text":"比較會處在等待政府編列預算的狀態之下"},{"start":4416.01,"end":4419.01,"text":"那相較像是長庚這一類的"},{"start":4419.01,"end":4421.01,"text":"私立裁緩法人醫院"},{"start":4421.01,"end":4423.01,"text":"可能會有更高的誘因"},{"start":4423.01,"end":4426.01,"text":"來進行自主的節能減碳"},{"start":4426.030000000001,"end":4429.030000000001,"text":"像之前我們也曾經特別到"},{"start":4429.030000000001,"end":4431.030000000001,"text":"林口長庚醫學中心去考察"},{"start":4431.030000000001,"end":4433.030000000001,"text":"而最近長庚醫院"},{"start":4433.030000000001,"end":4435.030000000001,"text":"更是從硬體設備上的減碳措施"},{"start":4435.030000000001,"end":4439.030000000001,"text":"發展到以醫院服務流程為核心的"},{"start":4439.030000000001,"end":4441.030000000001,"text":"減碳的管理模式"},{"start":4441.030000000001,"end":4444.030000000001,"text":"因此針對公立醫院自主節能減碳的部分"},{"start":4444.030000000001,"end":4447.030000000001,"text":"我們還是希望環境部可以再跟"},{"start":4447.030000000001,"end":4450.030000000001,"text":"衛福部交易部國防部跟匯福會"},{"start":4450.030000000001,"end":4454.030000000001,"text":"相討論如何能夠更積極的來做鼓勵跟推動"},{"start":4454.05,"end":4456.05,"text":"最後就在今年的3月"},{"start":4456.05,"end":4459.05,"text":"國家衛生研究院提出一份"},{"start":4459.05,"end":4461.05,"text":"因應氣候變遷等環境因素"},{"start":4461.05,"end":4465.05,"text":"對健康危害探討環境費"},{"start":4465.05,"end":4468.05,"text":"醫助健保的可行性的一個論壇報告"},{"start":4468.05,"end":4472.05,"text":"這一項議題是由總統府健康台灣"},{"start":4472.05,"end":4475.05,"text":"推動委員會的副召集人陳志宏教授"},{"start":4475.05,"end":4478.05,"text":"以及全民健康保險委員會主任委員"},{"start":4478.05,"end":4480.05,"text":"周立芳教授來擔任召集人"},{"start":4480.05,"end":4482.05,"text":"報告裡面針對環境稅"},{"start":4482.070000000001,"end":4485.070000000001,"text":"或者是政府規會用於健保或整體健康的"},{"start":4485.070000000001,"end":4489.070000000001,"text":"促進政策進行非常詳盡的研究"},{"start":4489.070000000001,"end":4492.070000000001,"text":"包括國際案例的比較分析"},{"start":4492.070000000001,"end":4495.070000000001,"text":"跟某國制度調整的可行性評估"},{"start":4495.070000000001,"end":4498.070000000001,"text":"未來有機會也更希望能夠完整"},{"start":4498.070000000001,"end":4502.070000000001,"text":"來跟環境部還有衛福部來討論環境稅"},{"start":4502.070000000001,"end":4505.070000000001,"text":"或環境費 醫助健保或健康政策"},{"start":4505.070000000001,"end":4507.070000000001,"text":"裁員的可行性"},{"start":4507.070000000001,"end":4510.070000000001,"text":"最後祝福今天的公聽會順利成功"},{"start":4510.07,"end":4513.09,"text":"也祝福所有與會嘉賓身心都健康"},{"start":4515.93,"end":4517.950000000001,"text":"謝謝王珍旭委員發言"},{"start":4520.4400000000005,"end":4522.42,"text":"接下來我們邀請"},{"start":4522.42,"end":4527.42,"text":"私立逢甲大學講座教授魏國燕教授"},{"start":4549.55,"end":4552.55,"text":"好 我們先處理"},{"start":4552.55,"end":4557.55,"text":"那順便可不可以先確定一下後邊的有沒有"},{"start":4557.55,"end":4559.55,"text":"不好意思啊 我那個魏教授"},{"start":4565.12,"end":4567.12,"text":"先休息好了"},{"start":4601.54,"end":4606.54,"text":"接下來我們請國立台北科技大學林文映教授"},{"start":4607.48,"end":4610.48,"text":"謝謝主席 各位先生大家好"},{"start":4610.48,"end":4613.48,"text":"那個 我想這個"},{"start":4613.48,"end":4617.48,"text":"溫室氣體的排放 全球的一個氣候變遷"},{"start":4617.48,"end":4621.48,"text":"那我們相關的國人都非常重視"},{"start":4621.48,"end":4624.48,"text":"那今天有關於這個碳費的部分"},{"start":4624.48,"end":4628.48,"text":"跟對產業界還有社會大家都非常的關注說"},{"start":4628.48,"end":4631.48,"text":"我們碳費的增收它的效益"},{"start":4631.48,"end":4635.48,"text":"或者是說之後碳費它的一個應用上面"},{"start":4635.48,"end":4639.48,"text":"有哪一些課題需要去討論關切的"},{"start":4639.48,"end":4642.48,"text":"那今天我提供四點潛艦"},{"start":4642.48,"end":4644.48,"text":"第一個就是說"},{"start":4644.48,"end":4649.48,"text":"我們現階段的第一年的一個碳費的增收"},{"start":4649.48,"end":4654.48,"text":"剛才那個環境部次長也有談到"},{"start":4654.48,"end":4658.48,"text":"那我們402廠的一個自主減量計畫"},{"start":4658.48,"end":4662.48,"text":"其實它主要一個就是它的一個設備節能"},{"start":4662.48,"end":4666.48,"text":"一些措施或者是說燃料的替換"},{"start":4666.48,"end":4669.48,"text":"或者是製程的一個改善"},{"start":4669.48,"end":4672.48,"text":"那我覺得這目前來講"},{"start":4672.48,"end":4676.48,"text":"看起來預估說我們在這個2030年"},{"start":4676.48,"end":4681.48,"text":"會有4000多萬噸的一個減碳的一個成果"},{"start":4681.48,"end":4682.48,"text":"預期的成果"},{"start":4682.48,"end":4685.48,"text":"那這個其實是要每一年每一年去檢視"},{"start":4685.48,"end":4687.48,"text":"因為它自主減量的一個"},{"start":4687.48,"end":4689.48,"text":"都有一些期繩減量的規劃"},{"start":4689.48,"end":4692.48,"text":"尤其是有一些的減量期繩"},{"start":4692.48,"end":4698.48,"text":"它的一個減量比例比較集中在後面的"},{"start":4698.48,"end":4699.48,"text":"最後一兩年的"},{"start":4699.48,"end":4701.48,"text":"它才會達標的"},{"start":4701.48,"end":4705.48,"text":"那個其實要盡早可以督促"},{"start":4705.48,"end":4707.48,"text":"盡早就要去執行"},{"start":4707.48,"end":4709.48,"text":"如果有可能的話"},{"start":4709.48,"end":4711.48,"text":"避免後面的一個不確定性"},{"start":4711.48,"end":4714.48,"text":"那相關的這些低碳的一個技術"},{"start":4714.48,"end":4717.48,"text":"除了這個產業部門之外"},{"start":4717.48,"end":4721.48,"text":"應該有機會擴散到其他的一個部門"},{"start":4721.48,"end":4723.48,"text":"那這樣子它的一個技術"},{"start":4723.48,"end":4725.48,"text":"或者是相關的一個措施"},{"start":4725.48,"end":4727.48,"text":"它的效益可以擴散"},{"start":4727.48,"end":4728.48,"text":"這是第一個前景"},{"start":4728.48,"end":4733.48,"text":"第二個有關於這個高排碳的這個排放源"},{"start":4733.48,"end":4736.48,"text":"他們的一個優惠費率"},{"start":4736.48,"end":4740.48,"text":"應該要連結到它的一個減碳"},{"start":4740.48,"end":4743.48,"text":"實際上的一個作為要去檢視到"},{"start":4743.48,"end":4745.48,"text":"目前看起來是有一些優惠"},{"start":4745.48,"end":4750.48,"text":"那當然我們會考量它的一個減碳的一個責任"},{"start":4750.48,"end":4751.48,"text":"同時"},{"start":4753.48,"end":4756.48,"text":"也要兼顧到這個可能企業產業"},{"start":4756.48,"end":4759.48,"text":"它有它的競爭力的一個考量"},{"start":4759.48,"end":4763.48,"text":"那這些當然有牽涉到國內外的相關的一個情"},{"start":4763.48,"end":4765.48,"text":"一些情勢"},{"start":4765.48,"end":4769.48,"text":"不過有關於這個環境部掌握"},{"start":4769.48,"end":4770.48,"text":"它的一個減碳的責任"},{"start":4770.48,"end":4772.48,"text":"但是相關的一個"},{"start":4772.48,"end":4775.48,"text":"它的一個企業的競爭力"},{"start":4775.48,"end":4779.48,"text":"應該相關的部會要確切的可以了解掌握"},{"start":4779.48,"end":4782.48,"text":"這樣子我們才可以兩邊同時兼顧"},{"start":4782.48,"end":4785.48,"text":"可能有在這個競爭力部分"},{"start":4785.48,"end":4789.48,"text":"可能不是環境部這方面的一個職長專長的部分"},{"start":4789.48,"end":4790.48,"text":"所以其他的部會"},{"start":4790.48,"end":4795.48,"text":"或是像民間的一些團體的獨處應該是很有幫助的"},{"start":4797.22,"end":4799.22,"text":"第三個有關於未來的一個"},{"start":4799.22,"end":4804.22,"text":"碳費的一個申請的一個基金的一個使用"},{"start":4804.22,"end":4807.22,"text":"我是覺得說應該優先投入到"},{"start":4807.22,"end":4811.22,"text":"它比較有公共效益的一個部分"},{"start":4811.22,"end":4815.22,"text":"還有這一個它牽涉到的一個技術風險"},{"start":4815.22,"end":4818.22,"text":"或是不確定性現階段"},{"start":4818.22,"end":4820.22,"text":"它的一個進展比較低的部分"},{"start":4820.22,"end":4823.22,"text":"以及這個它相關的一個市場基金"},{"start":4823.22,"end":4826.22,"text":"或者是公正轉型相關的"},{"start":4826.22,"end":4828.22,"text":"它的一個資源比較少的一個部分"},{"start":4828.22,"end":4831.22,"text":"盡量投入在這一個部分"},{"start":4831.22,"end":4835.22,"text":"那有關於目前企業它本身應該要"},{"start":4835.22,"end":4837.22,"text":"付出的一些減量的一個責任"},{"start":4837.22,"end":4841.22,"text":"應該盡可能避免去重複的去補助"},{"start":4841.22,"end":4843.22,"text":"它應該負起的一個責任"},{"start":4843.22,"end":4847.22,"text":"然後基金的應用應該定期要公開"},{"start":4847.22,"end":4849.22,"text":"到底由哪一些補助的案件"},{"start":4849.22,"end":4852.22,"text":"它的一個成效效益怎樣子"},{"start":4852.22,"end":4855.22,"text":"應該是定期要向大家報告"},{"start":4855.22,"end":4857.22,"text":"最後一個建議是有關於"},{"start":4857.22,"end":4859.22,"text":"碳費制度還有ETS的部分"},{"start":4859.22,"end":4864.22,"text":"其實我們的ETS不只是我們碳費ETS"},{"start":4864.22,"end":4868.22,"text":"以前還有這個空污的一個ETS也有"},{"start":4868.22,"end":4872.22,"text":"其實環境部以前環保署規劃的非常長久"},{"start":4872.22,"end":4875.22,"text":"但是可能都會碰到一些"},{"start":4875.22,"end":4878.22,"text":"不確定的掌握的一個問題"},{"start":4878.22,"end":4881.22,"text":"我想在未來的一個碳費還有ETS"},{"start":4881.22,"end":4884.22,"text":"這兩個部分怎麼去並行"},{"start":4884.22,"end":4889.22,"text":"然後怎麼去有點說讓企業有一些"},{"start":4889.22,"end":4891.22,"text":"它可以選擇它比較高"},{"start":4891.22,"end":4893.22,"text":"對它企業的一個競爭力"},{"start":4893.22,"end":4896.22,"text":"還有減碳的責任也負起這方面的機制"},{"start":4896.22,"end":4899.22,"text":"要去能夠去兼顧到"},{"start":4899.22,"end":4902.22,"text":"但是可能裡面會有一些"},{"start":4902.22,"end":4906.22,"text":"比如說我們對於排放量的一個品質的"},{"start":4906.22,"end":4908.22,"text":"掌握的部分"},{"start":4908.22,"end":4911.22,"text":"所以目前的一個各方面排放員的"},{"start":4911.22,"end":4913.22,"text":"排放量的品質到底是怎樣子"},{"start":4913.22,"end":4915.22,"text":"怎麼去再確保這方面"},{"start":4915.22,"end":4918.22,"text":"還有未來總量的限制"},{"start":4918.22,"end":4920.22,"text":"它配合的一個核定"},{"start":4920.22,"end":4923.22,"text":"還有交易的一個監理的部分"},{"start":4923.22,"end":4925.22,"text":"是不是有一些市場機制"},{"start":4925.22,"end":4928.22,"text":"一些寡斷或者操控的一個情形"},{"start":4928.22,"end":4930.22,"text":"可能都要很小心"},{"start":4930.22,"end":4933.22,"text":"然後碳費還有ETS聯合起來"},{"start":4933.22,"end":4936.22,"text":"和我們下一階段的一個減碳的目標"},{"start":4936.22,"end":4938.22,"text":"應該要對應連結"},{"start":4938.22,"end":4939.22,"text":"以上請見謝謝"},{"start":4941.27,"end":4945.27,"text":"好謝謝林文義教授的發言"},{"start":4945.27,"end":4948.27,"text":"下一位請逢甲大學蔣宗教授"},{"start":4948.27,"end":4949.27,"text":"魏國遠教授發言"},{"start":4957.5,"end":4959.5,"text":"主席各位女士各位先生大家早安"},{"start":4959.5,"end":4961.5,"text":"我是魏國遠"},{"start":4961.5,"end":4964.5,"text":"正如剛才我們一開場的時候"},{"start":4964.5,"end":4967.5,"text":"林委員當主席的開場白"},{"start":4967.5,"end":4969.5,"text":"談到"},{"start":4969.38,"end":4973.38,"text":"在台灣我們民眾對於碳費"},{"start":4973.38,"end":4975.38,"text":"或碳稅的感覺是比較薄弱的"},{"start":4976.64,"end":4978.64,"text":"但是另外一方面"},{"start":4978.64,"end":4981.64,"text":"這幾年很多極端天氣造成的危害"},{"start":4981.64,"end":4983.64,"text":"反而是感同身受"},{"start":4983.64,"end":4986.64,"text":"所以我等一下想利用幾分鐘的時間"},{"start":4986.64,"end":4988.64,"text":"特別從地球科學的角度"},{"start":4988.64,"end":4991.64,"text":"甚至從古氣候學的角度"},{"start":4991.64,"end":4993.64,"text":"來對於這一方面"},{"start":4993.64,"end":4996.64,"text":"也就是說科學教育和科學研究方面"},{"start":4996.64,"end":4998.64,"text":"一些新的資料做一些補充"},{"start":5002.24,"end":5004.24,"text":"首先當然先談到碳費"},{"start":5004.24,"end":5008.24,"text":"這個是我們最新的世界銀行的一個報告"},{"start":5008.24,"end":5010.24,"text":"4月1號出版的"},{"start":5010.24,"end":5013.24,"text":"講老實話在這個表格上"},{"start":5013.24,"end":5015.24,"text":"我們可以看到台灣的碳費"},{"start":5015.24,"end":5017.24,"text":"就是左邊這邊飆出來的"},{"start":5017.24,"end":5020.24,"text":"它跟現在譬如說歐盟的碳費"},{"start":5020.24,"end":5022.24,"text":"我們確實有一個差距"},{"start":5022.24,"end":5025.24,"text":"歐盟現在是我們的八倍"},{"start":5025.24,"end":5031.24,"text":"全球的平均價的每噸的碳費是21美元"},{"start":5031.24,"end":5035.24,"text":"一開始我們謝孟儒、謝政次也報告過"},{"start":5035.24,"end":5037.24,"text":"台灣目前大概是10美元"},{"start":5037.24,"end":5040.24,"text":"也就是我們大概是它的二分之一"},{"start":5042.08,"end":5044.08,"text":"當然我們也知道"},{"start":5044.08,"end":5046.08,"text":"我們這個中華民國的碳費"},{"start":5046.08,"end":5048.08,"text":"會不斷的逐漸的升高"},{"start":5048.08,"end":5051.08,"text":"不過目前也因為基於股利的關係"},{"start":5051.08,"end":5054.08,"text":"其實有很多所謂的打折的措施"},{"start":5054.08,"end":5057.08,"text":"我們也可以理解為什麼要有這樣的措施"},{"start":5057.08,"end":5059.08,"text":"當年"},{"start":5059.29,"end":5061.29,"text":"我當環保署長的時候"},{"start":5061.29,"end":5065.29,"text":"其實在最早的這個溫室級減量管理法"},{"start":5065.29,"end":5068.29,"text":"已經有做過相關的設計"},{"start":5068.29,"end":5071.29,"text":"那這幾年環境部我必須說也非常努力"},{"start":5071.29,"end":5074.29,"text":"終於在去年已經正式實施"},{"start":5074.29,"end":5076.29,"text":"只是說在這個基礎上"},{"start":5076.29,"end":5078.29,"text":"我們希望再重新考慮"},{"start":5078.29,"end":5082.29,"text":"尤其在跟全國國民的溝通上面"},{"start":5082.29,"end":5083.29,"text":"我們可以知道"},{"start":5083.29,"end":5085.29,"text":"我們必須要增加碳費"},{"start":5085.29,"end":5087.29,"text":"尤其還有CBAM的問題"},{"start":5087.29,"end":5089.29,"text":"就是歐盟的碳關稅調整"},{"start":5092.6,"end":5094.6,"text":"好 那我們看一下"},{"start":5094.6,"end":5100.6,"text":"我前一段在聯合報就寫了小心全球暖化"},{"start":5100.6,"end":5102.6,"text":"今年還有 今年明年還有一個問題"},{"start":5102.6,"end":5104.6,"text":"就是超級反聲音"},{"start":5104.6,"end":5106.6,"text":"所以這兩個我們加起來以後"},{"start":5106.6,"end":5108.6,"text":"這個極端天氣"},{"start":5108.6,"end":5112.6,"text":"其實我們知道在近兩年三年會更加嚴重"},{"start":5113.34,"end":5117.34,"text":"那我這邊談一下比較一個更長時期的觀點"},{"start":5117.34,"end":5120.34,"text":"這個圖看到的是過去80萬年來"},{"start":5120.34,"end":5125.34,"text":"我們地球大氣中二氧化碳的濃度的變化"},{"start":5125.53,"end":5127.53,"text":"如果大家可以看到呢"},{"start":5129.07,"end":5132.07,"text":"藍色我框起來的部分是80年來的韻律"},{"start":5132.07,"end":5138.07,"text":"它在290或者300ppm跟180之間來回擺動"},{"start":5138.07,"end":5140.07,"text":"這是大自然的韻律"},{"start":5140.07,"end":5146.07,"text":"可是當我們1850年這個工業革命以來"},{"start":5146.07,"end":5150.07,"text":"我們現在的這個二氧化碳的排放是一飛沖天"},{"start":5150.07,"end":5154.07,"text":"2024年已經到了423ppm"},{"start":5154.07,"end":5156.07,"text":"今年還要繼續增加"},{"start":5156.07,"end":5161.07,"text":"所以現在全球在談的是一個20年前"},{"start":5162.18,"end":5168.18,"text":"政府間氣候變化小組已經介紹的所謂災難臨界點的概念"},{"start":5168.18,"end":5173.18,"text":"當我們地球暖化的溫度超過1.5度C的時候"},{"start":5173.18,"end":5177.18,"text":"可能我們就進入了一個災難的不回歸點"},{"start":5177.18,"end":5180.18,"text":"那我們現在是不是已經進入呢"},{"start":5180.18,"end":5183.18,"text":"每一家的這個數據有點不同"},{"start":5183.18,"end":5186.18,"text":"這邊想給大家看到的是"},{"start":5187.91,"end":5195.91,"text":"其實在2024年我們根據這個柏克萊的大學的統計的資料"},{"start":5195.91,"end":5197.91,"text":"我們已經超過1.5度C了"},{"start":5197.91,"end":5202.91,"text":"2024年超過了當年的1.5度C"},{"start":5202.91,"end":5204.91,"text":"超過了0.1度"},{"start":5205.28,"end":5208.28,"text":"所以在比較嚴格的意義上來講"},{"start":5208.28,"end":5213.28,"text":"我們已經進入了這個地球的氣候變化的不回歸點"},{"start":5213.28,"end":5217.28,"text":"也就是說全球人類面臨相當大的危機"},{"start":5217.28,"end":5219.28,"text":"所以我特別勸出來這個位置"},{"start":5219.28,"end":5222.28,"text":"那我們現在身在台灣其實也特別嚴重"},{"start":5222.28,"end":5227.28,"text":"因為我們就在所謂的西太平洋暖池的邊上"},{"start":5227.28,"end":5229.28,"text":"這個大家可以看到紅色一片"},{"start":5229.28,"end":5231.28,"text":"這是全世界最熱的海洋的地方"},{"start":5231.28,"end":5234.28,"text":"也代表有最多的熱含量"},{"start":5236.77,"end":5238.77,"text":"也因為這個原因"},{"start":5238.77,"end":5243.77,"text":"我們看這個世界氣象組織所比較近年公布的"},{"start":5243.77,"end":5246.77,"text":"我們亞洲地區"},{"start":5246.64,"end":5248.64,"text":"近六年增溫"},{"start":5248.64,"end":5251.64,"text":"光近六年就增溫1度C"},{"start":5251.64,"end":5253.64,"text":"本來是只有1.5度C的幅度"},{"start":5253.64,"end":5256.64,"text":"讓我們能夠有一個轉環的空間"},{"start":5256.64,"end":5258.64,"text":"現在已經用掉了"},{"start":5258.64,"end":5261.64,"text":"六年之間就用掉這些"},{"start":5261.64,"end":5263.64,"text":"那如我剛才所講"},{"start":5263.64,"end":5265.64,"text":"超級生一年的來到"},{"start":5265.64,"end":5269.64,"text":"我看這個事情越來越緊張越來越嚴重"},{"start":5270.73,"end":5276.73,"text":"這個也是一個2025年10月份的全球海溫異常圖"},{"start":5276.73,"end":5278.73,"text":"可以看到我圈起來的地方"},{"start":5278.73,"end":5281.73,"text":"其實台灣就被籠罩其中"},{"start":5281.73,"end":5286.73,"text":"我們的附近的海溫增溫嚴重"},{"start":5286.97,"end":5288.97,"text":"這個同時來講"},{"start":5288.97,"end":5290.97,"text":"如果稍微往北走"},{"start":5290.97,"end":5292.97,"text":"就是黃海、渤海、東海"},{"start":5292.97,"end":5297.97,"text":"這個位置現在也在黑潮的幫助之下"},{"start":5297.97,"end":5301.97,"text":"把全球最熱的海水送進我們這個邊緣海"},{"start":5301.97,"end":5303.97,"text":"所以這也是非常嚴重的事情"},{"start":5303.97,"end":5306.97,"text":"所以根據以上的這些"},{"start":5306.97,"end":5308.97,"text":"我們的心得"},{"start":5308.7,"end":5311.7,"text":"地球科學或者氣象的一些觀測"},{"start":5311.7,"end":5313.7,"text":"我們知道這個問題是非常嚴重的"},{"start":5313.7,"end":5316.7,"text":"我們希望全國國民也知道這件事情"},{"start":5316.7,"end":5320.7,"text":"也希望我們的委員能夠特別重視這個事情"},{"start":5320.7,"end":5322.7,"text":"以上報告謝謝"},{"start":5322.98,"end":5324.98,"text":"謝謝魏教授的發言"},{"start":5324.98,"end":5327.98,"text":"下一位我們請林月芹、趙季雯發言"},{"start":5332.08,"end":5333.08,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":5338.49,"end":5342.49,"text":"在場的專案學者還有我們的行政部門"},{"start":5343.33,"end":5345.33,"text":"那我想今天要談"},{"start":5346.17,"end":5347.17,"text":"碳費"},{"start":5347.17,"end":5351.17,"text":"我想碳費的提升跟優惠的一個匯率的檢討"},{"start":5351.17,"end":5354.17,"text":"應該今天在場很多專案學者都會提到"},{"start":5354.17,"end":5356.17,"text":"我也很認同"},{"start":5356.17,"end":5358.17,"text":"那我要切入角度"},{"start":5358.17,"end":5360.17,"text":"就如同我剛剛前面開場提的"},{"start":5360.17,"end":5364.17,"text":"因為我自己來自社會福利工作者"},{"start":5364.17,"end":5366.17,"text":"那我一直在關心"},{"start":5366.17,"end":5370.17,"text":"針對環境議題的這個課題"},{"start":5370.17,"end":5371.17,"text":"我比較關心的是"},{"start":5371.17,"end":5375.17,"text":"到底下一代承擔多少的氣候成本"},{"start":5375.17,"end":5377.17,"text":"還有這次在碳費在收的時候"},{"start":5377.17,"end":5380.17,"text":"到底對於我們的弱勢勞工"},{"start":5380.17,"end":5384.17,"text":"跟從社會福利的角度來看的話"},{"start":5384.17,"end":5386.17,"text":"到底有多少人會受到影響"},{"start":5386.17,"end":5388.17,"text":"甚至我比較堅持的是"},{"start":5388.17,"end":5390.17,"text":"不遺落任何人的一個"},{"start":5390.17,"end":5393.17,"text":"這是一個公正轉型最基本的要求"},{"start":5393.17,"end":5397.17,"text":"同時也是我在政策規劃的那個價值立場"},{"start":5397.17,"end":5399.17,"text":"因為我始終認為把弱勢的人"},{"start":5399.17,"end":5403.17,"text":"放在政策設計的起點"},{"start":5403.17,"end":5406.17,"text":"最後守住的才會是多數人的生活安全"},{"start":5408.68,"end":5411.68,"text":"碳費是讓我們排放者付出代價"},{"start":5411.68,"end":5414.68,"text":"促使企業去減碳"},{"start":5414.68,"end":5418.68,"text":"可是如果成本去做轉嫁的時候"},{"start":5418.68,"end":5421.68,"text":"譬如說商品的價格提高"},{"start":5421.68,"end":5423.68,"text":"甚至電價提高"},{"start":5423.68,"end":5426.68,"text":"那影響的是誰?影響的是弱勢"},{"start":5426.68,"end":5428.68,"text":"如果說在做收碳費"},{"start":5428.68,"end":5431.68,"text":"企業在做轉型的時候"},{"start":5431.68,"end":5433.68,"text":"某一些的高風險的勞工"},{"start":5433.68,"end":5434.68,"text":"所謂高風險的勞工"},{"start":5434.68,"end":5436.68,"text":"因為我們畢竟碳費的優惠"},{"start":5436.68,"end":5439.68,"text":"並沒有綁勞工的權益條款"},{"start":5439.68,"end":5442.68,"text":"所以會不會有減薪、裁員"},{"start":5442.68,"end":5444.68,"text":"甚至造成失業"},{"start":5444.68,"end":5446.68,"text":"所以最後這些的承擔"},{"start":5446.68,"end":5449.68,"text":"就會是勞工跟我們的弱勢家庭"},{"start":5449.68,"end":5450.68,"text":"所以我們不能只問說"},{"start":5450.68,"end":5453.68,"text":"到底收了多少?減了多少的碳?"},{"start":5453.68,"end":5456.68,"text":"更要問的是誰先受到衝擊?"},{"start":5456.68,"end":5459.68,"text":"還有誰又能夠得到真正支持?"},{"start":5459.68,"end":5461.68,"text":"因為我想這不是抽象的擔心"},{"start":5461.68,"end":5464.68,"text":"今年首期單費已經完成繳費了"},{"start":5464.68,"end":5466.68,"text":"我們現在看到簡報上"},{"start":5466.68,"end":5468.68,"text":"剛也是有報告說"},{"start":5468.68,"end":5470.68,"text":"已經收到49.7億元"},{"start":5472.93,"end":5475.93,"text":"有461廠240家的企業"},{"start":5475.93,"end":5478.93,"text":"這個金額是49.7億"},{"start":5478.93,"end":5483.93,"text":"依法去納入我們的溫管基金來運用"},{"start":5483.93,"end":5484.93,"text":"可是審計部也指出"},{"start":5484.93,"end":5486.93,"text":"截至到今年的4月10號"},{"start":5486.93,"end":5489.93,"text":"我們的氣候變遷運營法的施行"},{"start":5489.93,"end":5491.93,"text":"已經超過三年了"},{"start":5491.93,"end":5494.93,"text":"法定的國家公正轉型行動計畫"},{"start":5494.93,"end":5495.93,"text":"還沒有完成"},{"start":5495.93,"end":5498.93,"text":"國防費的4月、5月間"},{"start":5498.93,"end":5500.93,"text":"啟動的兩階段的意見徵詢"},{"start":5500.93,"end":5502.93,"text":"最新公開的說明欄是"},{"start":5502.93,"end":5507.93,"text":"在中整各部門的政策後嚴厲行動計畫"},{"start":5507.93,"end":5508.93,"text":"已經超過三年了"},{"start":5508.93,"end":5509.93,"text":"換句話說"},{"start":5509.93,"end":5511.93,"text":"碳費已經實際收取"},{"start":5511.93,"end":5514.93,"text":"碳、減碳工具也走在前面了"},{"start":5514.93,"end":5516.93,"text":"可是誰會受影響?"},{"start":5516.93,"end":5518.93,"text":"由誰來做協助?"},{"start":5518.93,"end":5520.93,"text":"而且資源如何送達?"},{"start":5520.93,"end":5521.93,"text":"跟成效怎麼追蹤?"},{"start":5521.93,"end":5525.93,"text":"我覺得制度仍在後邊來做刻補"},{"start":5525.93,"end":5526.93,"text":"可是"},{"start":5527.83,"end":5530.83,"text":"實際上這些搞爆弱勢家庭已經在承擔"},{"start":5530.83,"end":5533.83,"text":"勞工朋友也在承擔"},{"start":5533.83,"end":5535.83,"text":"這個碳費收取之後的"},{"start":5535.83,"end":5537.83,"text":"到底有沒有幫助到他們?"},{"start":5538.46,"end":5540.46,"text":"接下來我要談的是"},{"start":5540.46,"end":5542.46,"text":"我們的碳費跟節能政策"},{"start":5542.46,"end":5544.46,"text":"到底能不能走到弱勢家庭家戶?"},{"start":5544.46,"end":5546.46,"text":"因為台大風險中心也調查"},{"start":5546.46,"end":5549.46,"text":"844戶的經濟弱勢家戶"},{"start":5549.46,"end":5553.46,"text":"他有22.75%不知道家電節能補助"},{"start":5553.46,"end":5555.46,"text":"22.27%知道"},{"start":5555.46,"end":5558.46,"text":"卻因負擔不起區域費用"},{"start":5558.46,"end":5561.46,"text":"因為我們都有所謂的自付配殼款"},{"start":5561.46,"end":5563.46,"text":"而且未更換二手"},{"start":5563.46,"end":5565.46,"text":"老舊的跟損壞的家電"},{"start":5565.46,"end":5568.46,"text":"所以59.83%為租屋者"},{"start":5568.46,"end":5571.46,"text":"所以資訊跟支付能力跟租屋的協調"},{"start":5571.46,"end":5574.46,"text":"能來把這些家庭擋在門外"},{"start":5574.46,"end":5575.46,"text":"那我要強調的是"},{"start":5575.46,"end":5577.46,"text":"未來修法我的修法方向"},{"start":5577.46,"end":5579.46,"text":"還是基於碳費收入有限"},{"start":5579.46,"end":5583.46,"text":"就應該優先投入最難自行調適的人"},{"start":5585.01,"end":5586.01,"text":"國外不是沒有經驗"},{"start":5586.01,"end":5589.01,"text":"我想剛剛湯主任也講了國外的很多經驗"},{"start":5589.01,"end":5590.01,"text":"我們這邊也看到"},{"start":5590.01,"end":5591.01,"text":"美國加州規定"},{"start":5591.01,"end":5594.01,"text":"碳交易的拍賣收入的氣候投資"},{"start":5594.01,"end":5598.01,"text":"至少35%會要再提供給誰?"},{"start":5598.01,"end":5600.01,"text":"提供給優先族群來受益"},{"start":5600.01,"end":5601.01,"text":"那這些人是誰?"},{"start":5601.01,"end":5604.01,"text":"不利處境的社區和低收入的社區"},{"start":5604.01,"end":5607.01,"text":"和低收入戶的家庭"},{"start":5607.01,"end":5611.01,"text":"韓國也在2026年的4月7號完成修法了"},{"start":5611.01,"end":5615.01,"text":"將支持氣候危機的脆弱族群"},{"start":5615.01,"end":5619.01,"text":"納入到氣候應對的基金的用途"},{"start":5619.01,"end":5621.01,"text":"所以我覺得並規定"},{"start":5621.01,"end":5624.01,"text":"國家跟地方政府應該掌握去處境"},{"start":5624.01,"end":5628.01,"text":"提出應應的氣候災害及延伸的資源"},{"start":5628.01,"end":5630.01,"text":"那我到現在還是看不出來"},{"start":5630.01,"end":5633.01,"text":"如果我們剛剛講勞工會受到影響"},{"start":5633.01,"end":5636.01,"text":"那我們對於各產業減碳受衝擊的勞工"},{"start":5636.01,"end":5639.01,"text":"清測跟評估有出來了嗎?"},{"start":5639.01,"end":5643.01,"text":"甚至我覺得今天優先補助企業"},{"start":5643.01,"end":5646.01,"text":"甚至有些企業主張要優先補助"},{"start":5646.01,"end":5648.01,"text":"在企業的減碳技術裡面"},{"start":5648.01,"end":5651.01,"text":"那到底勞工跟弱勢補助"},{"start":5651.01,"end":5653.01,"text":"會不會在你基金分配的時候"},{"start":5653.01,"end":5655.01,"text":"就變成是邊緣化"},{"start":5655.01,"end":5658.01,"text":"所以我看到台灣的氣候變遷因應法"},{"start":5658.01,"end":5660.01,"text":"有把調適跟公正轉型列為基金用途"},{"start":5660.01,"end":5664.01,"text":"可是沒有訂定任何對弱勢的保障"},{"start":5664.01,"end":5666.01,"text":"甚至沒有要求地方政府"},{"start":5666.01,"end":5669.01,"text":"政府一弱勢的受益那個程度評分"},{"start":5669.01,"end":5670.01,"text":"所以我認為"},{"start":5670.01,"end":5672.01,"text":"我覺得嚴定補助機制的時候"},{"start":5672.01,"end":5676.01,"text":"應該把對不利處境群體的實質"},{"start":5676.01,"end":5678.01,"text":"支持列為評分的項目"},{"start":5678.01,"end":5681.01,"text":"而且碳費的支應的調適計畫"},{"start":5681.01,"end":5683.01,"text":"也應該公開我們的服務對象"},{"start":5683.01,"end":5685.01,"text":"甚至資源流向跟風險改善"},{"start":5685.01,"end":5687.01,"text":"應該讓碳費優先保護"},{"start":5687.01,"end":5689.01,"text":"最容易受到衝擊的人"},{"start":5689.01,"end":5691.01,"text":"才是符合氣候爭議"},{"start":5691.01,"end":5696.01,"text":"而且也能夠提升我們的公共的信任度"},{"start":5697.87,"end":5699.87,"text":"那目前大概看到"},{"start":5699.87,"end":5703.87,"text":"115年度我們的溫室氣體的管理基金"},{"start":5703.87,"end":5706.87,"text":"編了1億4500萬元"},{"start":5706.87,"end":5708.87,"text":"來補助地方辦理氣候工作"},{"start":5708.87,"end":5712.87,"text":"減碳的永續加元跟高溫的防護地圖"},{"start":5712.87,"end":5713.87,"text":"公開的第二劑補助"},{"start":5713.87,"end":5716.87,"text":"也可見現是根計畫跟撥補的金額"},{"start":5716.87,"end":5718.87,"text":"可是我們還是看不出來"},{"start":5718.87,"end":5720.87,"text":"就是服務的多少脆弱人口"},{"start":5720.87,"end":5722.87,"text":"風險是否下降"},{"start":5722.87,"end":5724.87,"text":"企業端同時也有同樣的問題"},{"start":5724.87,"end":5727.87,"text":"402廠已核定了自主的減量計畫"},{"start":5727.87,"end":5731.87,"text":"並取得優惠的費率"},{"start":5731.87,"end":5733.87,"text":"依法每月4月底應該要提交"},{"start":5733.87,"end":5735.87,"text":"前一年的執行報告"},{"start":5735.87,"end":5738.87,"text":"那環境部應該在年底前去完成查核"},{"start":5738.87,"end":5739.87,"text":"可是我們現在看到平台"},{"start":5739.87,"end":5741.87,"text":"應該要主要公開的"},{"start":5741.87,"end":5743.87,"text":"核定目標費率跟措施"},{"start":5743.87,"end":5745.87,"text":"都還沒有公開我們的年度報告"},{"start":5745.87,"end":5748.87,"text":"個別措施的預估減量"},{"start":5748.87,"end":5752.87,"text":"那投入的成本跟首年度的查核的結果"},{"start":5752.87,"end":5754.87,"text":"所以公民團體還是很難"},{"start":5754.87,"end":5755.87,"text":"從這邊去看到"},{"start":5755.87,"end":5759.87,"text":"我們的檢探是不是如期的再發生"},{"start":5759.87,"end":5762.87,"text":"也就是達到目標冷媒"},{"start":5762.87,"end":5766.87,"text":"所以我覺得今年7月底發布的補助辦法"},{"start":5766.87,"end":5769.87,"text":"為名列我們的公正轉型的審查條件"},{"start":5769.87,"end":5773.87,"text":"而且還明文排除自主減量計畫"},{"start":5773.87,"end":5777.87,"text":"我覺得貸款信用保證與利息貼補要點"},{"start":5777.87,"end":5780.87,"text":"還是仍然停留在草案"},{"start":5780.87,"end":5782.87,"text":"所以我們希望環境部這邊"},{"start":5782.87,"end":5786.87,"text":"是不是應該針對後續企業跟地方補助的"},{"start":5786.87,"end":5788.87,"text":"計畫公告跟審查跟成果報告"},{"start":5788.87,"end":5791.87,"text":"都應該納入衝擊盤點"},{"start":5791.87,"end":5795.87,"text":"勞資跟利害、關係、忍、協調、勞動力轉型規劃"},{"start":5795.87,"end":5797.87,"text":"以及脆弱人口的收益指標"},{"start":5797.87,"end":5800.87,"text":"所以政府不能說只證明錢花了"},{"start":5800.87,"end":5802.87,"text":"更要讓社會看見"},{"start":5802.87,"end":5804.87,"text":"減了多少誰受到影響"},{"start":5804.87,"end":5807.87,"text":"誰又能夠真正得到保障"},{"start":5807.87,"end":5809.87,"text":"最後我們還是期待"},{"start":5809.87,"end":5810.87,"text":"因為這個我已經質詢過"},{"start":5810.87,"end":5813.87,"text":"也跟環境部溝通過"},{"start":5813.87,"end":5816.87,"text":"是不是邀請國際委員來審查"},{"start":5816.87,"end":5819.87,"text":"因為的確我們的國際的處境"},{"start":5819.87,"end":5820.87,"text":"事實上受到限制"},{"start":5820.87,"end":5825.87,"text":"可是CRC、CRPD都還是邀請國際委員來審查"},{"start":5825.87,"end":5826.87,"text":"這有什麼好處呢"},{"start":5826.87,"end":5828.87,"text":"因為第一個你可以邀請公民團體"},{"start":5828.87,"end":5831.87,"text":"一起來跟你確定整個的"},{"start":5831.87,"end":5833.87,"text":"目前的整個的狀況"},{"start":5833.87,"end":5836.87,"text":"第二個事實上也可以有國號部會"},{"start":5836.87,"end":5837.87,"text":"所以有國號部會"},{"start":5837.87,"end":5839.87,"text":"因為今天環境的治理"},{"start":5839.87,"end":5841.87,"text":"並不是只有單一的環境部"},{"start":5841.87,"end":5843.87,"text":"氣候的變遷的這些事實上"},{"start":5843.87,"end":5845.87,"text":"是要各部會一起來做"},{"start":5845.87,"end":5849.87,"text":"所以我認為這個應該要去執行"},{"start":5849.87,"end":5851.87,"text":"部長也有承諾說"},{"start":5851.87,"end":5854.87,"text":"接下來要邀請國際委員來做審查"},{"start":5854.87,"end":5857.87,"text":"所以本會期我大概也請部長"},{"start":5857.87,"end":5859.87,"text":"要先挹注資源來推動事本"},{"start":5859.87,"end":5861.87,"text":"既然部長答應的話"},{"start":5861.87,"end":5864.87,"text":"我覺得應該要先去處理經費的問題"},{"start":5864.87,"end":5866.87,"text":"接下來我們會請環境部"},{"start":5866.87,"end":5868.87,"text":"要給我們明確的時程"},{"start":5868.87,"end":5870.87,"text":"辦理的組織單位跟經費規模"},{"start":5870.87,"end":5872.87,"text":"來逐步補齊法規"},{"start":5872.87,"end":5875.87,"text":"建立政府正式回應跟後續追蹤"},{"start":5875.87,"end":5878.87,"text":"因為我覺得這不是單一次的國際活動"},{"start":5878.87,"end":5881.87,"text":"我們是希望能夠成為長期運作的"},{"start":5881.87,"end":5883.87,"text":"氣候治理的制度"},{"start":5883.87,"end":5884.87,"text":"那就要麻煩環境部"},{"start":5884.87,"end":5886.87,"text":"以上謝謝"},{"start":5887.26,"end":5890.26,"text":"好謝謝林育勤召集委員的發言"},{"start":5890.26,"end":5894.26,"text":"下一位請台灣大學公衛學院"},{"start":5894.26,"end":5897.26,"text":"專案助理教授尚教授尚俊錫教授發言"},{"start":5902.16,"end":5904.16,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":5903.23,"end":5905.23,"text":"各位好我是尚俊錫"},{"start":5905.23,"end":5908.23,"text":"我除了代表台大公衛的老師以外"},{"start":5908.23,"end":5911.23,"text":"我也是台灣第一屆的公共衛生師"},{"start":5911.23,"end":5915.23,"text":"那我們知道這波疫情"},{"start":5915.23,"end":5917.23,"text":"幾乎影響了每一個人"},{"start":5917.23,"end":5920.23,"text":"深深地影響了每一個產業全世界"},{"start":5920.23,"end":5922.23,"text":"好像都被迫按下暫停鍵"},{"start":5922.23,"end":5923.23,"text":"但是大家知道嗎"},{"start":5923.23,"end":5926.23,"text":"事實上這個所有的疫情"},{"start":5926.23,"end":5930.23,"text":"傳染病的疫情都是跟全球暖化"},{"start":5930.23,"end":5931.23,"text":"密切的相關"},{"start":5931.23,"end":5934.23,"text":"大概至少在20 30年前2000年左右"},{"start":5934.23,"end":5938.23,"text":"大家就知道全球暖化對公共衛生"},{"start":5938.23,"end":5941.23,"text":"絕對是一個非常嚴重的衝擊"},{"start":5941.23,"end":5944.23,"text":"如果再加上少子化高齡化這一些"},{"start":5944.23,"end":5948.23,"text":"加起來對我們整個健保也好"},{"start":5948.23,"end":5952.23,"text":"醫療系統的負擔真的是不敢想像"},{"start":5952.23,"end":5953.23,"text":"大家可以想像嗎"},{"start":5953.23,"end":5958.23,"text":"這個新冠疫情新冠病毒對公衛的人來說"},{"start":5958.23,"end":5959.23,"text":"對醫療來說"},{"start":5959.23,"end":5962.23,"text":"它其實是一個相對溫和的病毒"},{"start":5962.23,"end":5965.23,"text":"我們還沒有真正面對過這種"},{"start":5965.23,"end":5968.23,"text":"很嚴苛這種疫情"},{"start":5968.23,"end":5970.23,"text":"很嚴峻的疫情"},{"start":5970.81,"end":5972.81,"text":"那"},{"start":5972.23,"end":5974.23,"text":"從公共衛生的角度來講"},{"start":5974.23,"end":5978.23,"text":"這個碳排是一個很邪惡的事情"},{"start":5978.23,"end":5981.23,"text":"那因為它就是這麼的負面"},{"start":5981.23,"end":5983.23,"text":"可是那當然"},{"start":5983.23,"end":5987.23,"text":"碳費的設計制度就非常重要"},{"start":5987.23,"end":5990.23,"text":"因為這個是利益之所趨"},{"start":5990.23,"end":5992.23,"text":"這個是人性"},{"start":5992.23,"end":5994.23,"text":"但是在台灣現行的碳費制度上面"},{"start":5994.23,"end":5997.23,"text":"大家可以看到現在已經2026年了"},{"start":5997.23,"end":6001.23,"text":"我們的反應實在是有點慢"},{"start":6001.23,"end":6004.23,"text":"在制度設計上面我們叫做碳費"},{"start":6004.23,"end":6005.23,"text":"Carbon Fee"},{"start":6005.23,"end":6008.23,"text":"那這個跟歐盟和新加坡這些已開發國家"},{"start":6008.23,"end":6011.23,"text":"他們採行的剛剛所謂的"},{"start":6011.23,"end":6012.23,"text":"碳排放交易系統"},{"start":6012.23,"end":6014.23,"text":"ETS或者是碳稅"},{"start":6014.23,"end":6015.23,"text":"Carbon Tax"},{"start":6015.23,"end":6018.23,"text":"這個在根本上其實是很不一樣的"},{"start":6018.23,"end":6020.23,"text":"那我這邊要特別提出來"},{"start":6020.23,"end":6022.23,"text":"我們現在的碳費雖然是一般費用"},{"start":6022.23,"end":6025.23,"text":"好像看起來在亞洲國家還不錯"},{"start":6025.23,"end":6028.23,"text":"我們排放一噸二氧化碳當量"},{"start":6028.23,"end":6031.23,"text":"可以收到新台幣300元"},{"start":6031.23,"end":6033.23,"text":"那這個每年將近"},{"start":6033.23,"end":6037.23,"text":"目前到現在將近50億的收入"},{"start":6038.14,"end":6039.14,"text":"太好了"},{"start":6039.9,"end":6041.9,"text":"有一個特點就是它不是進入國庫"},{"start":6041.9,"end":6044.9,"text":"而是納入這個所謂的溫室氣體管理基金"},{"start":6044.9,"end":6045.9,"text":"專款專用"},{"start":6045.9,"end":6048.9,"text":"那目前這個年度的基金支出"},{"start":6048.9,"end":6049.9,"text":"高達七成以上"},{"start":6051,"end":6053,"text":"是專門用於企業"},{"start":6053,"end":6057,"text":"補助企業這個低碳製程創新等等"},{"start":6057,"end":6060,"text":"或是補助信用保證貸款利息"},{"start":6060,"end":6062,"text":"那我在這邊要提出這樣子"},{"start":6062,"end":6064,"text":"做可能的三點疑慮"},{"start":6064,"end":6066,"text":"第一點就是"},{"start":6066,"end":6067,"text":"剛剛也有提到的"},{"start":6067,"end":6069,"text":"我們的費率是偏低的"},{"start":6069,"end":6072,"text":"與開發國家相比"},{"start":6072,"end":6075,"text":"那像歐盟它是一公噸是"},{"start":6075,"end":6079,"text":"要台幣2600到3700元"},{"start":6079,"end":6081,"text":"那我們現在是300嘛"},{"start":6081,"end":6083,"text":"那新加坡是"},{"start":6083,"end":6087,"text":"每公噸是1134元"},{"start":6087,"end":6089,"text":"這個都是換算成台幣"},{"start":6089,"end":6092,"text":"那尤其如果比照我們的GDP的話"},{"start":6092,"end":6094,"text":"我們的GDP傲視全球"},{"start":6094,"end":6096,"text":"可是我們對於碳排放的定價卻是"},{"start":6096,"end":6098,"text":"九牛一毛不成比例"},{"start":6098,"end":6102,"text":"再加上碳費定價有一個很關鍵的就是"},{"start":6102,"end":6103,"text":"它是想要一輛"},{"start":6103,"end":6105,"text":"一架去質量"},{"start":6105,"end":6107,"text":"在這邊它跟這個歐盟他們"},{"start":6107,"end":6109,"text":"總量管制想要一輛"},{"start":6109,"end":6112,"text":"回頭來去做一個浮動的價"},{"start":6112,"end":6114,"text":"的調整是不一樣的"},{"start":6114,"end":6116,"text":"所以我們缺乏總量管制"},{"start":6116,"end":6118,"text":"就會變成像這個大林浦那邊"},{"start":6118,"end":6120,"text":"220根煙囪每一根都合法"},{"start":6120,"end":6122,"text":"我們缺乏總量的管制"},{"start":6122,"end":6125,"text":"所以很難不擔心這些碳排很高的產業"},{"start":6125,"end":6127,"text":"會不會寧可花了小錢"},{"start":6127,"end":6129,"text":"繳了碳稅之後呢"},{"start":6129,"end":6131,"text":"它就可以高枕無憂繼續碳排"},{"start":6131,"end":6133,"text":"那第二個疑慮就是"},{"start":6133,"end":6135,"text":"這個經費是使用的"},{"start":6135,"end":6137,"text":"妥適性的問題"},{"start":6138.9,"end":6139.9,"text":"按照目前的規劃"},{"start":6139.9,"end":6141.9,"text":"絕大部分的碳費坦白講"},{"start":6141.9,"end":6144.9,"text":"還是會流回這個企業"},{"start":6144.9,"end":6147.9,"text":"但是真正剛委員也有提到"},{"start":6147.9,"end":6152.9,"text":"碳排因為這樣子受災的這種弱勢的族群呢"},{"start":6152.9,"end":6154.9,"text":"反而得不到合理的賠償"},{"start":6154.9,"end":6156.9,"text":"那北歐的國家是怎麼做的呢"},{"start":6156.9,"end":6161.9,"text":"他們是把碳稅當為一個統收統支"},{"start":6161.9,"end":6163.9,"text":"它就是整個進一個國庫"},{"start":6163.9,"end":6165.9,"text":"當作國家統一的財政規劃"},{"start":6165.9,"end":6167.9,"text":"這樣做有什麼好處"},{"start":6167.9,"end":6170.9,"text":"就是可以慢慢地去實施所謂的綠色稅改"},{"start":6170.9,"end":6173.9,"text":"那它一邊在這邊課增碳稅"},{"start":6173.9,"end":6175.9,"text":"是從企業來的"},{"start":6175.9,"end":6177.9,"text":"那一方面呢"},{"start":6177.9,"end":6180.9,"text":"調降人民的個人所得稅"},{"start":6180.9,"end":6184.9,"text":"那這樣子可以維持社會總體的所得公平"},{"start":6184.9,"end":6187.9,"text":"那事實上那因為這些企業賺的錢"},{"start":6187.9,"end":6189.9,"text":"也是從破壞大家的環境來的"},{"start":6189.9,"end":6191.9,"text":"所以大家可以這樣子去想"},{"start":6191.9,"end":6193.9,"text":"所以碳費那另外在台"},{"start":6193.9,"end":6195.9,"text":"如果根據我們的法規"},{"start":6195.9,"end":6198.9,"text":"碳費在台灣還有一個非常重要的使命"},{"start":6198.9,"end":6200.9,"text":"就是配合行政院核定的"},{"start":6200.9,"end":6204.9,"text":"這個第三期六大部門溫室氣體減量行動方案"},{"start":6204.9,"end":6206.9,"text":"它要引導公司部門"},{"start":6206.9,"end":6208.9,"text":"好去做這個減量工作"},{"start":6208.9,"end":6210.9,"text":"所以還要補助學術研究"},{"start":6210.9,"end":6212.9,"text":"所以你知道這個真的是"},{"start":6212.9,"end":6214.9,"text":"這個是森多周少"},{"start":6214.9,"end":6218.9,"text":"那第三個疑慮就是公共衛生的衝擊沒有列入考慮"},{"start":6218.9,"end":6220.9,"text":"因為碳排通常跟傳統"},{"start":6220.9,"end":6223.9,"text":"空氣污染物高度相關"},{"start":6223.9,"end":6225.9,"text":"那這些碳費運用呢"},{"start":6225.9,"end":6229.9,"text":"缺乏對極端高溫空污還有傳染病疫情"},{"start":6229.9,"end":6236.9,"text":"這些因為它會直接導致健保醫療系統的影響"},{"start":6236.9,"end":6240.9,"text":"沒有進行一個系統性直接的資金挹注"},{"start":6240.9,"end":6244.9,"text":"簡直白地講就是有沒有可能碳費"},{"start":6245.5,"end":6247.5,"text":"有一部分是拿來資助健保的"},{"start":6247.5,"end":6250.5,"text":"因為我們知道環境所有的毒"},{"start":6250.5,"end":6253.5,"text":"如果沒有防治好到後來都是健保買單"},{"start":6253.5,"end":6256.5,"text":"所以我們有沒有可能比照歐盟跟美國"},{"start":6256.5,"end":6259.5,"text":"在這個氣候基金的分配上面"},{"start":6259.5,"end":6264.5,"text":"是可以強調這個正義的"},{"start":6264.5,"end":6268.5,"text":"將碳稅視為社會風險治理的工具"},{"start":6268.5,"end":6271.5,"text":"而不是單純的產業轉型基金"},{"start":6271.5,"end":6274.5,"text":"好所以以上三點提供大家參考"},{"start":6274.5,"end":6275.5,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6278.29,"end":6280.29,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":6280.29,"end":6282.29,"text":"接下來我們請王玉明委員"},{"start":6288.77,"end":6291.77,"text":"主席各位今天出席的專家學者大家好"},{"start":6291.77,"end":6295.77,"text":"我們看到前署長今天也特別來參加"},{"start":6295.77,"end":6298.77,"text":"那我想今天這樣的議題對於台灣未來的"},{"start":6298.77,"end":6303.77,"text":"這個減碳其實是非常重要的公聽會"},{"start":6303.77,"end":6305.77,"text":"所以我今天在這邊也提出幾點"},{"start":6305.77,"end":6308.77,"text":"我自己的意見跟看法"},{"start":6308.77,"end":6312.77,"text":"因為台灣我們在2026年開始開徵碳費"},{"start":6312.77,"end":6316.77,"text":"我們收到了49.7億之後"},{"start":6316.77,"end":6320.77,"text":"那這個金額其實跟原來大家預估的"},{"start":6320.77,"end":6323.77,"text":"並不算是一個很高的金額"},{"start":6323.77,"end":6325.77,"text":"它就是啟動的一小步"},{"start":6325.77,"end":6327.77,"text":"因為原來在"},{"start":6327.99,"end":6329.99,"text":"碳費徵收之前大家都知道"},{"start":6329.99,"end":6330.99,"text":"當時的專家學者會議"},{"start":6330.99,"end":6333.99,"text":"大家希望普遍的一般性的費率就是300元"},{"start":6333.99,"end":6339.99,"text":"但是並沒有後來衛福部所謂的這個優惠折扣的"},{"start":6339.99,"end":6341.99,"text":"這樣的一個價格出來"},{"start":6341.99,"end":6346.99,"text":"那當然我知道當時其實有很多企業界反彈"},{"start":6346.99,"end":6349.99,"text":"所以衛福部這個環境部也讓步"},{"start":6349.99,"end":6351.99,"text":"就是說在這個經費上面"},{"start":6351.99,"end":6355.99,"text":"他提出了這個企業的優惠措施"},{"start":6355.99,"end":6360.99,"text":"那這樣的一個優惠措施其實已經實施一段時間"},{"start":6360.99,"end":6363.99,"text":"我覺得今天大家也應該要回過頭來思考"},{"start":6363.99,"end":6365.99,"text":"就是這樣的一個優惠措施"},{"start":6365.99,"end":6368.99,"text":"它所產生的效應到底是什麼"},{"start":6368.99,"end":6373.99,"text":"當然好處是讓更多的企業反彈不大可以上路"},{"start":6373.99,"end":6376.99,"text":"但是它可能會產生幾個問題"},{"start":6376.99,"end":6378.99,"text":"仍然是我們必須要面對的"},{"start":6378.99,"end":6381.99,"text":"就是剛剛其實特別已經有學者講了"},{"start":6381.99,"end":6383.99,"text":"有些更大型的企業他覺得"},{"start":6383.99,"end":6385.99,"text":"我繳了碳費了事"},{"start":6385.99,"end":6389.99,"text":"真正需要它深度去更改設備投入"},{"start":6389.99,"end":6392.99,"text":"而能達到真正減碳效果這件事情"},{"start":6392.99,"end":6394.99,"text":"恐怕並沒有發生"},{"start":6394.99,"end":6396.99,"text":"那如果是這樣子大家就是"},{"start":6396.99,"end":6398.99,"text":"我有一個重數計畫"},{"start":6398.99,"end":6399.99,"text":"我有一個什麼計畫"},{"start":6399.99,"end":6403.99,"text":"但是真正它本身排出這個大量這個氣體"},{"start":6403.99,"end":6408.99,"text":"然後增加碳排這件事情反而沒有被檢視了"},{"start":6408.99,"end":6411.99,"text":"所以這件事情是不是一直要維持這樣的一個碳費"},{"start":6411.99,"end":6414.99,"text":"我覺得環境部也應該要去思考"},{"start":6414.99,"end":6416.99,"text":"我們應該是階段性的處理"},{"start":6416.99,"end":6418.99,"text":"那這個國際上也認為就是"},{"start":6418.99,"end":6421.99,"text":"你這個你給企業調試期"},{"start":6421.99,"end":6423.99,"text":"但是你要有一個合理的碳費"},{"start":6423.99,"end":6426.99,"text":"你可能才可以避免有些企業"},{"start":6426.99,"end":6429.99,"text":"是想要藉由這樣的一個自主的計畫"},{"start":6429.99,"end":6433.99,"text":"來規避他真正要去減碳的這項工作"},{"start":6433.99,"end":6436.99,"text":"那特別是這一波的這個收的費用裡面"},{"start":6436.99,"end":6438.99,"text":"我們可以看到"},{"start":6438.99,"end":6441.99,"text":"我們台灣是半導體產業的國家"},{"start":6441.99,"end":6444.99,"text":"那這一次貢獻最大的就是半導體"},{"start":6444.99,"end":6446.99,"text":"但是它背後反應的就是"},{"start":6446.99,"end":6448.99,"text":"我們半導體是用電量最高"},{"start":6448.99,"end":6451.99,"text":"然後也是高碳排的這樣的一個產業"},{"start":6451.99,"end":6453.99,"text":"那它的社會責任在哪裡"},{"start":6453.99,"end":6456.99,"text":"那我們可以看到它這一次貢獻的"},{"start":6456.99,"end":6459.99,"text":"它是第一位就是占了44.3%"},{"start":6459.99,"end":6463.99,"text":"那所以台灣這麼特殊我們這麼多半導體"},{"start":6463.99,"end":6465.99,"text":"它的營收也很好"},{"start":6465.99,"end":6467.99,"text":"那是不是相對它的企業社會責任"},{"start":6467.99,"end":6469.99,"text":"特別是在減碳這件事情"},{"start":6469.99,"end":6471.99,"text":"它也應該要負相對大的責任"},{"start":6471.99,"end":6473.99,"text":"那我都認為這個是環境部"},{"start":6473.99,"end":6475.99,"text":"你們應該要進一步去思考的"},{"start":6475.99,"end":6477.99,"text":"第一大用戶就是半導體"},{"start":6477.99,"end":6480.99,"text":"第二就是電力發展的產業"},{"start":6480.99,"end":6483.99,"text":"那所以這些關鍵性大的產業"},{"start":6483.99,"end":6486.99,"text":"我們應該要怎麼樣逐步的"},{"start":6486.99,"end":6490.99,"text":"讓它擔負起實質轉型跟減碳的責任"},{"start":6490.99,"end":6492.99,"text":"我覺得不能再原地踏步"},{"start":6492.99,"end":6495.99,"text":"所以我希望第一個針對碳價的部分"},{"start":6495.99,"end":6496.99,"text":"碳價的部分"},{"start":6496.99,"end":6497.99,"text":"適當它是一個工具"},{"start":6497.99,"end":6499.99,"text":"最終目標是希望減碳"},{"start":6499.99,"end":6501.99,"text":"那所以在這個部分我認為"},{"start":6501.99,"end":6503.99,"text":"這個環境部應該去思考"},{"start":6503.99,"end":6505.99,"text":"我們已經踏出第一步"},{"start":6505.99,"end":6507.99,"text":"接下來怎麼樣逐步去推動"},{"start":6507.99,"end":6508.99,"text":"而不是再原地踏步"},{"start":6508.99,"end":6510.99,"text":"我覺得這個是環境部"},{"start":6510.99,"end":6512.99,"text":"應該去思考的事情"},{"start":6512.99,"end":6515.99,"text":"那這個第二個部分要提出來"},{"start":6515.99,"end":6517.99,"text":"就是自主減量這件事情"},{"start":6517.99,"end":6519.99,"text":"當然環境部認為說"},{"start":6519.99,"end":6522.99,"text":"這個是我們有一個積極的誘因"},{"start":6522.99,"end":6524.99,"text":"我們提供了這樣的一個優惠"},{"start":6524.99,"end":6527.99,"text":"但是在這個自主減量的計畫當中"},{"start":6527.99,"end":6530.99,"text":"有幾個問題我認為是"},{"start":6530.99,"end":6533.99,"text":"環境部也要積極去監督跟落實的"},{"start":6533.99,"end":6536.99,"text":"第一個就是它的資訊的透明度"},{"start":6536.99,"end":6539.99,"text":"就是各企業它公開的資訊"},{"start":65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6918.5,"end":6920.5,"text":"台灣靈探牌"},{"start":6920.5,"end":6922.5,"text":"台灣靈探牌"},{"start":6922.5,"end":6924.5,"text":"台灣靈探牌"},{"start":6924.5,"end":6926.5,"text":"台灣靈探牌"},{"start":6926.5,"end":6928.5,"text":"台灣靈探牌"},{"start":6928.5,"end":6930.5,"text":"台灣靈探牌"},{"start":6930.5,"end":6932.5,"text":"台灣靈探牌"},{"start":6932.5,"end":6934.5,"text":"台灣靈探牌"},{"start":6921.5,"end":6923.5,"text":"這咱本土研究分數"},{"start":6923.5,"end":6925.5,"text":"這MDP分數也是四分"},{"start":6925.5,"end":6927.5,"text":"這個四分"},{"start":6927.5,"end":6929.5,"text":"影響分數"},{"start":6929.5,"end":6931.5,"text":"台灣副掌控醫學院也是兩分"},{"start":6931.5,"end":6933.5,"text":"我告訴大家"},{"start":6933.5,"end":6935.5,"text":"他在說的就是"},{"start":6935.5,"end":6937.5,"text":"碳費越高"},{"start":6937.5,"end":6939.5,"text":"PM2.5越有效"},{"start":6939.5,"end":6941.5,"text":"就是一體的兩面"},{"start":6940.67,"end":6942.67,"text":"你減碳就可以改善空污"},{"start":6946.22,"end":6948.22,"text":"這大啊"},{"start":6948.22,"end":6950.22,"text":"做台積電也不說他有效彈"},{"start":6950.22,"end":6952.22,"text":"不好意思啦"},{"start":6952.5,"end":6954.5,"text":"這台灣本土研究"},{"start":6954.5,"end":6956.5,"text":"所以有倍這是他說的"},{"start":6956.5,"end":6958.5,"text":"錢越多"},{"start":6956.95,"end":6958.95,"text":"你成語有倍越多"},{"start":6958.95,"end":6960.95,"text":"你只有300多500多個飯糰"},{"start":6960.95,"end":6962.95,"text":"飯糰有個飯糰是不是什麼"},{"start":6962.95,"end":6964.95,"text":"來下一張"},{"start":6965.69,"end":6967.69,"text":"不好意思"},{"start":6968.14,"end":6970.14,"text":"所以"},{"start":6969.34,"end":6971.34,"text":"非常可笑的時光"},{"start":6971.68,"end":6973.68,"text":"Done"},{"start":6972.63,"end":6974.63,"text":"便便的打蛇"},{"start":6974.38,"end":6976.38,"text":"我們剛才說鋼鐵駕駛"},{"start":6976.38,"end":6978.38,"text":"高耗兩名其實高汙染高空汙"},{"start":6980.54,"end":6982.54,"text":"本來就這麼小了"},{"start":6982.54,"end":6984.54,"text":"300多"},{"start":6984.54,"end":6986.54,"text":"本來就這麼小了"},{"start":6986.54,"end":6988.54,"text":"又打蛇下去"},{"start":6985.05,"end":6987.05,"text":"如果說1600是要跌停"},{"start":6988.04,"end":6990.04,"text":"跌停7機8機"},{"start":6990.04,"end":6992.04,"text":"我不知道"},{"start":6992.04,"end":6994.04,"text":"如果30要3機4機"},{"start":6994.04,"end":6996.04,"text":"跌30跌7機"},{"start":6996.3,"end":6998.3,"text":"快點"},{"start":6997.47,"end":6999.47,"text":"這300多剩50多"},{"start":6999.47,"end":7001.47,"text":"是要幹嘛"},{"start":7000.51,"end":7002.51,"text":"哪有什麼壓力"},{"start":7002.51,"end":7004.51,"text":"請看下一張"},{"start":7003.59,"end":7005.59,"text":"好"},{"start":7005.5,"end":7007.5,"text":"這我們的授意就是說"},{"start":7007.5,"end":7009.5,"text":"台灣大部分是能源的汙染"},{"start":7009.72,"end":7011.72,"text":"所以汙染這麼大"},{"start":7011.88,"end":7013.88,"text":"其實最重要的東西"},{"start":7013.88,"end":7015.88,"text":"你如果減能源就可以解釋"},{"start":7015.88,"end":7017.88,"text":"很多人說北歐"},{"start":7017.88,"end":7019.88,"text":"北歐我知道瑞典P2中"},{"start":7019.88,"end":7021.88,"text":"差不多5年了"},{"start":7021.88,"end":7023.88,"text":"人家減碳減空汙"},{"start":7023.88,"end":7025.88,"text":"還有粉絲團隊主席"},{"start":7025.88,"end":7027.88,"text":"都說大家又分錢"},{"start":7027.88,"end":7029.88,"text":"很好來這裡這一張"},{"start":7029.35,"end":7031.35,"text":"水"},{"start":7031.27,"end":7033.27,"text":"台電"},{"start":7033.65,"end":7035.65,"text":"台電"},{"start":7038.22,"end":7040.22,"text":"台電電力"},{"start":7040.22,"end":7042.22,"text":"電力差不多6成"},{"start":7041.5,"end":7043.5,"text":"台電本身的33%"},{"start":7043.5,"end":7045.5,"text":"所以我今天也會針對台電"},{"start":7046.96,"end":7048.96,"text":"我們如果為國營企業做起"},{"start":7048.96,"end":7050.96,"text":"先公後私"},{"start":7050.56,"end":7052.56,"text":"要從自己做起"},{"start":7052.56,"end":7054.56,"text":"從沒有節能"},{"start":7054.56,"end":7056.56,"text":"要求行政院節能"},{"start":7056.56,"end":7058.56,"text":"行政院沒有節能"},{"start":7058.56,"end":7060.56,"text":"環境部沒有節能"},{"start":7060.56,"end":7062.56,"text":"要地方防毒署節能"},{"start":7062.56,"end":7064.56,"text":"這是不好意思的"},{"start":7064.56,"end":7066.56,"text":"從自己做起"},{"start":7066.56,"end":7068.56,"text":"台灣健康空氣行動"},{"start":7068.56,"end":7070.56,"text":"我們就是促成台灣復產"},{"start":7070.56,"end":7072.56,"text":"醫學先公正能醫療"},{"start":7072.56,"end":7074.56,"text":"全台灣共會就是我們"},{"start":7074.56,"end":7076.56,"text":"要從自己做起"},{"start":7076.56,"end":7078.56,"text":"什麼話會一張"},{"start":7074.1,"end":7076.1,"text":"所以這是砍得很好"},{"start":7076.1,"end":7078.1,"text":"他們每次都記著1分"},{"start":7078.1,"end":7080.1,"text":"台灣醫學差不多都2分"},{"start":7080.1,"end":7082.1,"text":"他在減少溫室氣體的健康協同"},{"start":7082.1,"end":7084.1,"text":"最有效是什麼"},{"start":7084.1,"end":7086.1,"text":"是國家級的能源部門"},{"start":7086.1,"end":7088.1,"text":"最有效"},{"start":7087.41,"end":7089.41,"text":"最有效的健康"},{"start":7089.07,"end":7091.07,"text":"所以如果健康不是大家共識"},{"start":7091.07,"end":7093.07,"text":"這裡面有些人好起來"},{"start":7093.07,"end":7095.07,"text":"有些人善吃"},{"start":7095.07,"end":7097.07,"text":"不分好起來善吃"},{"start":7097.07,"end":7099.07,"text":"大家都追求健康"},{"start":7099.07,"end":7101.07,"text":"最近有一個醫學人"},{"start":7100.63,"end":7102.63,"text":"可能也是沒孫子"},{"start":7102.63,"end":7104.63,"text":"所以我們今天要救台灣"},{"start":7104.63,"end":7106.63,"text":"我想健康是最大的共識"},{"start":7106.63,"end":7108.63,"text":"健康協同就是減少溫室氣體"},{"start":7108.63,"end":7110.63,"text":"這是國家生技能"},{"start":7110.63,"end":7112.63,"text":"偏偏誰要走"},{"start":7113.11,"end":7115.11,"text":"南地對台電放水"},{"start":7116.03,"end":7118.03,"text":"這是牛津日內音報告"},{"start":7119.21,"end":7121.21,"text":"台灣獨佔事業"},{"start":7121.21,"end":7123.21,"text":"所以耍賴吧,不然你要怎樣"},{"start":7122.58,"end":7124.58,"text":"不然你要怎樣"},{"start":7124.58,"end":7126.58,"text":"他不怕擔心破產"},{"start":7126.58,"end":7128.58,"text":"獨佔嘛"},{"start":7126.98,"end":7128.98,"text":"台灣電力公司就是台灣國力公司"},{"start":7128.98,"end":7130.98,"text":"我覺得非常可惜"},{"start":7130.98,"end":7132.98,"text":"台灣電力公司我們的油氣出外"},{"start":7132.98,"end":7134.98,"text":"台灣怎麼出外"},{"start":7136.43,"end":7138.43,"text":"這國家是沒有獨立的"},{"start":7138.43,"end":7140.43,"text":"台灣要獨立,台灣能源要先獨立"},{"start":7140.43,"end":7142.43,"text":"台灣能源沒有獨立,這個國家怎麼會獨立呢"},{"start":7143.76,"end":7145.76,"text":"所以"},{"start":7144.7,"end":7146.7,"text":"今天非常可惜"},{"start":7146.7,"end":7148.7,"text":"台灣電力公司、台灣國力公司"},{"start":7148.7,"end":7150.7,"text":"我這句話我沒有同意"},{"start":7150.7,"end":7152.7,"text":"台灣國力,都是建立在"},{"start":7152.7,"end":7154.7,"text":"每一個非常健康的基礎上"},{"start":7154.7,"end":7156.7,"text":"是建立在台積電這麼強的基礎上"},{"start":7156.7,"end":7158.7,"text":"不是靠沒油氣製造汙染的"},{"start":7158.7,"end":7160.7,"text":"才會一中"},{"start":7161.17,"end":7163.17,"text":"所以,抱歉啦,這會疫情最"},{"start":7163.7,"end":7165.7,"text":"天啊"},{"start":7164.97,"end":7166.97,"text":"南乳做好節能"},{"start":7166.97,"end":7168.97,"text":"我看環團也出來說沒有做好節能"},{"start":7168.97,"end":7170.97,"text":"我一直說節能最好能源節好"},{"start":7170.97,"end":7172.97,"text":"民進黨也從2011年就說"},{"start":7172.97,"end":7174.97,"text":"我剛剛做得不太好"},{"start":7174.97,"end":7176.97,"text":"所以台灣國力公司"},{"start":7176.97,"end":7178.97,"text":"台灣電力公司這點我是保留"},{"start":7178.97,"end":7180.97,"text":"才看得一中"},{"start":7181.1,"end":7183.1,"text":"所以,我剛剛台電"},{"start":7184.11,"end":7186.11,"text":"環境部,有你護航啦,抱歉"},{"start":7186.11,"end":7188.11,"text":"我不敢說,所以你只能回應"},{"start":7188.11,"end":7190.11,"text":"請他一中,100元怎麼會有什麼"},{"start":7190.11,"end":7192.11,"text":"請他一中,所以他"},{"start":7192.11,"end":7194.11,"text":"他來自然,我們來幫,這中"},{"start":7194.11,"end":7196.11,"text":"要請大家講話,抱歉"},{"start":7196.11,"end":7198.11,"text":"時間,來"},{"start":7198.11,"end":7200.11,"text":"這記住,記住,他講話"},{"start":7205.98,"end":7207.98,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7221.48,"end":7223.48,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7222.85,"end":7224.85,"text":"通過福利國家整體的建設"},{"start":7224.85,"end":7226.85,"text":"我們把長照3.0"},{"start":7226.85,"end":7228.85,"text":"在今年提前上"},{"start":7230.6,"end":7232.6,"text":"我們落實了工作,多了現場台灣"},{"start":7239.84,"end":7241.84,"text":"喔,I see"},{"start":7241.87,"end":7243.87,"text":"我是憑者,弱者,困者"},{"start":7245.19,"end":7247.19,"text":"空污可治好"},{"start":7246.7,"end":7248.7,"text":"最大"},{"start":7247.96,"end":7249.96,"text":"太遲了"},{"start":7249.19,"end":7251.19,"text":"我們要打賭,我們這裡改建吧"},{"start":7252.13,"end":7254.13,"text":"我們最重要是上次是不要被打賭"},{"start":7255.02,"end":7257.02,"text":"你打賭後,你憑者越憑"},{"start":7257.02,"end":7259.02,"text":"請他一中"},{"start":7259.02,"end":7261.02,"text":"所以我可以用福山高醫學會來說"},{"start":7261.02,"end":7263.02,"text":"我們要賭錢,我支持,完全支持"},{"start":7263.76,"end":7265.76,"text":"但是,我們要有一個,以哪一個"},{"start":7265.76,"end":7267.76,"text":"公平,健康,成長的環境"},{"start":7267.76,"end":7269.76,"text":"可能比什麼都更重要"},{"start":7269.76,"end":7271.76,"text":"請他一中"},{"start":7271.7,"end":7273.7,"text":"難怪健康有沒有不平等"},{"start":7274.15,"end":7276.15,"text":"拜登就任10天內"},{"start":7276.15,"end":7278.15,"text":"在衛生部門成立"},{"start":7278.15,"end":7280.15,"text":"氣候變遷與健康平等辦公室"},{"start":7280.15,"end":7282.15,"text":"是怎樣,在衛生部門成立喔"},{"start":7282.15,"end":7284.15,"text":"這我跟彭吉明講過"},{"start":7284.15,"end":7286.15,"text":"他就認為說,給予氣候變遷"},{"start":7286.15,"end":7288.15,"text":"造成最大的不平等"},{"start":7289.12,"end":7291.12,"text":"不平等,我們給的本錢,我先告"},{"start":7292.8,"end":7294.8,"text":"所以你看中暑"},{"start":7296.54,"end":7298.54,"text":"這就是美國醫生關心"},{"start":7298.54,"end":7300.54,"text":"保護弱勢,弱勢,這極端氣候"},{"start":7300.54,"end":7302.54,"text":"我們來看這是新的,345分"},{"start":7302.91,"end":7304.91,"text":"影響345分,你看在華人期間"},{"start":7304.91,"end":7306.91,"text":"熱"},{"start":7307.09,"end":7309.09,"text":"影響太惡大腦,會"},{"start":7309.88,"end":7311.88,"text":"出息後3歲,會影響嗎"},{"start":7311.88,"end":7313.88,"text":"會影響他們大腦"},{"start":7313.71,"end":7315.71,"text":"怎麼會有個小孩出來,大腦輸人"},{"start":7316.81,"end":7318.81,"text":"輸人怎麼辦,他就不做先生了"},{"start":7319.68,"end":7321.68,"text":"請過來一聽"},{"start":7321.5,"end":7323.5,"text":"太惡可以先天性性這樣變喔"},{"start":7324.54,"end":7326.54,"text":"先天性性這樣變,這是39分"},{"start":7328.22,"end":7330.22,"text":"39分喔"},{"start":7330.13,"end":7332.13,"text":"所以影響性這樣變,心臟不好,腦不好"},{"start":7332.13,"end":7334.13,"text":"你是要怎樣,給你一萬個"},{"start":7334.13,"end":7336.13,"text":"也沒用,請過來一聽"},{"start":7336.64,"end":7338.64,"text":"所以說的才是512分"},{"start":7339.39,"end":7341.39,"text":"熱暴漏對母嬰胎兒"},{"start":7341.39,"end":7343.39,"text":"回顧,回顧是evidence最重要"},{"start":7343.39,"end":7345.39,"text":"請過來一聽"},{"start":7344.3,"end":7346.3,"text":"所以,來,前面"},{"start":7347.3,"end":7349.3,"text":"這要變成國家健康計畫優先來對"},{"start":7350.95,"end":7352.95,"text":"所以我們建議,氣候變遷"},{"start":7352.95,"end":7354.95,"text":"我們要做母親的嗎"},{"start":7354.95,"end":7356.95,"text":"我們要考慮胎兒的嗎,請過來一聽"},{"start":7357.26,"end":7359.26,"text":"所以在這裡說,低體重兒"},{"start":7359.26,"end":7361.26,"text":"低體重兒,後輩的成人疾病就出來了"},{"start":7361.26,"end":7363.26,"text":"懷孕期間,高血壓,頭暈變"},{"start":7363.26,"end":7365.26,"text":"小孩當然也會影響"},{"start":7365.26,"end":7367.26,"text":"早產會增加26%"},{"start":7367.26,"end":7369.26,"text":"食材會增加13%"},{"start":7369.26,"end":7371.26,"text":"先天畸形會增加17%,這不可能"},{"start":7371.26,"end":7373.26,"text":"先天畸形出來,心臟變"},{"start":7373.26,"end":7375.26,"text":"不然就其他什麼什麼,沒用"},{"start":7375.26,"end":7377.26,"text":"不只是在地板而已"},{"start":7377.26,"end":7379.26,"text":"到我們家具又傳染變"},{"start":7379.26,"end":7381.26,"text":"所以你發錢,幫助有限"},{"start":7381.26,"end":7383.26,"text":"回數的起跑點,非常可惜,請回來一聽"},{"start":7383.3,"end":7385.3,"text":"所以我們說弱勢健康台灣"},{"start":7385.3,"end":7387.3,"text":"最重要的是,要減少空汙"},{"start":7387.3,"end":7389.3,"text":"減少氣候,減少原油"},{"start":7389.3,"end":7391.3,"text":"減量,不是跟後輩報酬"},{"start":7391.3,"end":7393.3,"text":"請回來一聽"},{"start":7393.66,"end":7395.66,"text":"所以我們在這裡看"},{"start":7395.2,"end":7397.2,"text":"今天環境不好看到,都在做化妝師"},{"start":7398.32,"end":7400.32,"text":"不好意思,我會感到"},{"start":7400.32,"end":7402.32,"text":"那是我的偏見,請你們指教"},{"start":7402.32,"end":7404.32,"text":"這50元,鋼鐵"},{"start":7404.71,"end":7406.71,"text":"一個飯糰聽說50元,我不知道"},{"start":7406.71,"end":7408.71,"text":"所以我們,讓我們胎兒"},{"start":7408.71,"end":7410.71,"text":"在左下角,輸在起跑點"},{"start":7412.43,"end":7414.43,"text":"你如果年到三歲,也輸在起跑點"},{"start":7414.43,"end":7416.43,"text":"這個,說明心的胎兒進度太好"},{"start":7419.5,"end":7421.5,"text":"胎兒的受影,我告訴各位"},{"start":7421.5,"end":7423.5,"text":"來,現在來自用"},{"start":7422.92,"end":7424.92,"text":"所以"},{"start":7424.19,"end":7426.19,"text":"拼拼"},{"start":7425.98,"end":7427.98,"text":"健康台灣核心,應該是受核心"},{"start":7429.59,"end":7431.59,"text":"結果我們來自生理委員會,來自沒有"},{"start":7431.59,"end":7433.59,"text":"健康的人"},{"start":7433.4,"end":7435.4,"text":"官方沒有,千萬要去中"},{"start":7436.2,"end":7438.2,"text":"我們在裡面有經濟國,很重要的,我同意"},{"start":7442.01,"end":7444.01,"text":"我們的專家學者,也沒有醫療的人"},{"start":7444.01,"end":7446.01,"text":"請去中"},{"start":7445.5,"end":7447.5,"text":"所以這裡面可以做多少人,這就在你們中"},{"start":7447.5,"end":7449.5,"text":"請去中"},{"start":7449.33,"end":7451.33,"text":"所以"},{"start":7450.44,"end":7452.44,"text":"初見提高,有沒有用"},{"start":7452.44,"end":7454.44,"text":"台灣本土研究,你提高"},{"start":7454.44,"end":7456.44,"text":"如果可以增加,PML"},{"start":7456.44,"end":7458.44,"text":"台灣的研究,好,請去中"},{"start":7458.44,"end":7460.44,"text":"所以我們是不是,早日"},{"start":7460.44,"end":7462.44,"text":"1,200,1,800,可能達到"},{"start":7462.44,"end":7464.44,"text":"請去中"},{"start":7464.28,"end":7466.28,"text":"有第三萬,如果誰說第三萬,請去中"},{"start":7468.84,"end":7470.84,"text":"這就是新加坡的,第三萬認證"},{"start":7470.84,"end":7472.84,"text":"只有第三萬認證"},{"start":7472.84,"end":7474.84,"text":"可能,才會有好"},{"start":7474.84,"end":7476.84,"text":"請去中"},{"start":7477.23,"end":7479.23,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":7478.44,"end":7480.44,"text":"可以張執政喔"},{"start":7480.01,"end":7482.01,"text":"他得到終身成就獎"},{"start":7482.01,"end":7484.01,"text":"也做一個貢獻獎"},{"start":7484.01,"end":7486.01,"text":"我是保留,請去中"},{"start":7486.01,"end":7488.01,"text":"你看,環保署,他在副署長"},{"start":7488.01,"end":7490.01,"text":"做台電的常務董事"},{"start":7490.01,"end":7492.01,"text":"你被監督的單位"},{"start":7492.01,"end":7494.01,"text":"環評是台電來欠"},{"start":7494.01,"end":7496.01,"text":"結果你當成常務董事,2007年"},{"start":7496.01,"end":7498.01,"text":"出人生,開始做了,做到2008年"},{"start":7498.01,"end":7500.01,"text":"國民黨時代還在做,請去中"},{"start":7500.01,"end":7502.01,"text":"2009、2011"},{"start":7502.01,"end":7504.01,"text":"國民黨時代也在做"},{"start":7503.7,"end":7505.7,"text":"你監督的,你去做人常務董事"},{"start":7505.7,"end":7507.7,"text":"那你要做什麼?請去中"},{"start":7508.48,"end":7510.48,"text":"第三萬認證,這樣要怎樣?請去中"},{"start":7511.5,"end":7513.5,"text":"所以,一家親"},{"start":7513.5,"end":7515.5,"text":"台電跟環保署是一家親"},{"start":7515.5,"end":7517.5,"text":"委署長,你認內也是讓他去做"},{"start":7518.7,"end":7520.7,"text":"常務董事嘛,請去中"},{"start":7521.08,"end":7523.08,"text":"所以,我去中"},{"start":7523.63,"end":7525.63,"text":"一天到台灣國立公司的發言人"},{"start":7526.89,"end":7528.89,"text":"不好意思,我覺得有點可惜"},{"start":7528.89,"end":7530.89,"text":"請請"},{"start":7530.75,"end":7532.75,"text":"來,各位"},{"start":7531.82,"end":7533.82,"text":"所以,這是記者自己寫的"},{"start":7533.82,"end":7535.82,"text":"不是我說的"},{"start":7535.19,"end":7537.19,"text":"他忘了自己的職責寫"},{"start":7537.19,"end":7539.19,"text":"所以,我要拜託環境部給他認一認"},{"start":7539.19,"end":7541.19,"text":"為了胎兒,為了老人,為了那些弱勢"},{"start":7541.19,"end":7543.19,"text":"為了那些貧者,為了那些困者"},{"start":7543.7,"end":7545.7,"text":"發了錢以外,還要給他健康的環境"},{"start":7545.7,"end":7547.7,"text":"給他多花十年,一百年比較有用"},{"start":7547.7,"end":7549.7,"text":"來,請我去中"},{"start":7553.33,"end":7555.33,"text":"請你去中"},{"start":7555.37,"end":7557.37,"text":"所以,記者"},{"start":7557.48,"end":7559.48,"text":"來,咱們也要變成派對"},{"start":7559.49,"end":7561.49,"text":"唷"},{"start":7560.45,"end":7562.45,"text":"沒有管控"},{"start":7562.02,"end":7564.02,"text":"也不知道他都排多少"},{"start":7564.02,"end":7566.02,"text":"有沒有抄襲學者為例"},{"start":7566.02,"end":7568.02,"text":"有,沒有管控"},{"start":7567.73,"end":7569.73,"text":"下一集見"},{"start":7569.03,"end":7571.03,"text":"所以,感謝羅總統"},{"start":7571.61,"end":7573.61,"text":"以後關心"},{"start":7573.61,"end":7575.61,"text":"就聽,也來參加我們的遊行"},{"start":7575.2,"end":7577.2,"text":"表示2019年伊澤副總統"},{"start":7577.2,"end":7579.2,"text":"有關心嗎"},{"start":7579.07,"end":7581.07,"text":"但是,我想他剩六年而已"},{"start":7581.07,"end":7583.07,"text":"他想這替台灣做的事情"},{"start":7583.07,"end":7585.07,"text":"剩六年而已"},{"start":7585.07,"end":7587.07,"text":"台灣有一個伊先生,伊澤副總統"},{"start":7587.07,"end":7589.07,"text":"替台灣規劃,剩六年而已"},{"start":7588.65,"end":7590.65,"text":"所以,拜託環境部,捏起來"},{"start":7591.25,"end":7593.25,"text":"環境部就是環境部"},{"start":7593.25,"end":7595.25,"text":"環境部不是經濟部"},{"start":7596.82,"end":7598.82,"text":"環境部捏起來"},{"start":7598.54,"end":7600.54,"text":"為了泰爾"},{"start":7599.96,"end":7601.96,"text":"為了那些小孩有競爭力"},{"start":7601.96,"end":7603.96,"text":"不會影響他的IQ"},{"start":7603.96,"end":7605.96,"text":"不會影響他的學習能力"},{"start":7605.96,"end":7607.96,"text":"比本錢更重要"},{"start":7607.96,"end":7609.96,"text":"最後一張,拜託大家"},{"start":7609.96,"end":7611.96,"text":"ETS跟考相期有限的"},{"start":7611.96,"end":7613.96,"text":"這是年輕OECD"},{"start":7613.96,"end":7615.96,"text":"他們說的,我沒一定對"},{"start":7615.96,"end":7617.96,"text":"請大家多多指教,下一張,沒了"},{"start":7618.42,"end":7620.42,"text":"感謝這最後一張"},{"start":7620.42,"end":7622.42,"text":"就是總體來說"},{"start":7622.42,"end":7624.42,"text":"只有硬起來,加速把錢增加起來"},{"start":7624.42,"end":7626.42,"text":"這才是"},{"start":7626.42,"end":7628.42,"text":"我們對台灣"},{"start":7628.42,"end":7630.42,"text":"健康台灣才有希望"},{"start":7630.42,"end":7632.42,"text":"我們一直打折,打折,打折"},{"start":7632.42,"end":7634.42,"text":"是沒有希望,我們健康也就打折了"},{"start":7634.42,"end":7636.42,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":7635.72,"end":7637.72,"text":"感謝,謝謝"},{"start":7650.97,"end":7652.97,"text":"主席,各位委員,各位與會的專家學者"},{"start":7652.97,"end":7654.97,"text":"朋友們,大家好"},{"start":7655.97,"end":7657.97,"text":"其實我非常贊同"},{"start":7657.97,"end":7659.97,"text":"剛剛我們召集人提的"},{"start":7659.97,"end":7661.97,"text":"就是我們的資源有沒有回到"},{"start":7661.97,"end":7663.97,"text":"弱勢跟勞工的身上"},{"start":7663.97,"end":7665.97,"text":"我今天是以"},{"start":7666.75,"end":7668.75,"text":"職業在他勞工的身份"},{"start":7668.75,"end":7670.75,"text":"來參加這個公聽會"},{"start":7672.3,"end":7674.3,"text":"聲音不夠嗎"},{"start":7674.3,"end":7676.3,"text":"我太小聲了"},{"start":7676.08,"end":7678.08,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":7681.43,"end":7683.43,"text":"我們是一個"},{"start":7683.43,"end":7685.43,"text":"工作傷害受害人協會,協助"},{"start":7685.43,"end":7687.43,"text":"子災勞工的一個團體"},{"start":7687.43,"end":7689.43,"text":"我相信,我們非常多的人"},{"start":7689.43,"end":7691.43,"text":"都會很,我們其實"},{"start":7691.43,"end":7693.43,"text":"也是很支持2005"},{"start":7694.04,"end":7696.04,"text":"經營轉型的這個"},{"start":7696.04,"end":7698.04,"text":"角度來"},{"start":7698.04,"end":7700.04,"text":"出席在今天的這個活動"},{"start":7700.04,"end":7702.04,"text":"我們認為"},{"start":7702.04,"end":7704.04,"text":"碳費的制度不能只從企業競爭力"},{"start":7704.04,"end":7706.04,"text":"與產業的成本來思考"},{"start":7706.04,"end":7708.04,"text":"應該要證實一個"},{"start":7708.04,"end":7710.04,"text":"誰製造最多的碳排"},{"start":7710.69,"end":7712.69,"text":"就應該負責更多的責任"},{"start":7712.69,"end":7714.69,"text":"因為產業轉型的成本"},{"start":7714.69,"end":7716.69,"text":"最後會不會又轉嫁到勞工的身上"},{"start":7716.69,"end":7718.69,"text":"這個是,針對這個問題"},{"start":7718.69,"end":7720.69,"text":"我們提出了以下幾點"},{"start":7720.69,"end":7722.69,"text":"第一個,高碳排、高污染的產業"},{"start":7722.69,"end":7724.69,"text":"應該要負擔更高的"},{"start":7724.69,"end":7726.69,"text":"碳排費"},{"start":7726.69,"end":7728.69,"text":"不能讓碳排費低到失去減碳的效果"},{"start":7728.69,"end":7730.69,"text":"我們認為"},{"start":7730.69,"end":7732.69,"text":"大量使用"},{"start":7732.69,"end":7734.69,"text":"高度碳密集產業"},{"start":7734.69,"end":7736.69,"text":"應該要建立更強的價格"},{"start":7736.69,"end":7738.69,"text":"資訊,如果"},{"start":7738.69,"end":7740.69,"text":"只是50到100元的這個"},{"start":7740.69,"end":7742.69,"text":"會不會有誘因讓他們"},{"start":7742.69,"end":7744.69,"text":"真正要做到自主管理"},{"start":7744.69,"end":7746.69,"text":"做到減碳的這個行為"},{"start":7746.69,"end":7748.69,"text":"這個我們是存疑的"},{"start":7748.69,"end":7750.69,"text":"那如果說排一頓只有幾百塊"},{"start":7750.69,"end":7752.69,"text":"真的,這些企業真的會"},{"start":7752.69,"end":7754.69,"text":"做這個能源嶄新嗎"},{"start":7754.69,"end":7756.69,"text":"我們理解,政府避免要"},{"start":7756.69,"end":7758.69,"text":"突然受到衝擊"},{"start":7758.69,"end":7760.69,"text":"避免碳洩漏,不能做最後"},{"start":7760.69,"end":7762.69,"text":"變成高碳排產業場景"},{"start":7762.69,"end":7764.69,"text":"相有地碳排,所以我們主張"},{"start":7764.81,"end":7766.81,"text":"補助應該納入重新審查"},{"start":7766.81,"end":7768.81,"text":"第一,高碳排高度依賴"},{"start":7768.81,"end":7770.81,"text":"燃料及化石燃料的產業"},{"start":7770.81,"end":7772.81,"text":"應該要逐步調高"},{"start":7772.81,"end":7774.81,"text":"並提出明確調升的期程"},{"start":7778.33,"end":7780.33,"text":"第二"},{"start":7779.47,"end":7781.47,"text":"碳費費率審議會"},{"start":7781.47,"end":7783.47,"text":"必須納入真正的勞工團體代表"},{"start":7783.47,"end":7785.47,"text":"不能只有雇主代表"},{"start":7785.47,"end":7787.47,"text":"第三,建立具有專責"},{"start":7787.47,"end":7789.47,"text":"人力實際檢查及公開制度的"},{"start":7789.47,"end":7791.47,"text":"主張減量查核體系"},{"start":7791.47,"end":7793.47,"text":"就像勞動檢查一樣"},{"start":7793.47,"end":7795.47,"text":"不能只靠企業自主申請"},{"start":7797.43,"end":7799.43,"text":"第四,溫室氣體管理"},{"start":7799.43,"end":7801.43,"text":"基金應提到一定的比例"},{"start":7801.43,"end":7803.43,"text":"作為勞工團體、公會團體"},{"start":7803.43,"end":7805.43,"text":"及公民社會穿越減碳"},{"start":7805.43,"end":7807.43,"text":"以轉型正義的專款"},{"start":7807.43,"end":7809.43,"text":"進行轉型不能只有"},{"start":7809.43,"end":7811.43,"text":"碳排數字下降"},{"start":7811.43,"end":7813.43,"text":"我們希望看到的是"},{"start":7813.43,"end":7815.43,"text":"碳增的減下來"},{"start":7815.43,"end":7817.43,"text":"污染增的改善"},{"start":7817.43,"end":7819.43,"text":"勞工安全受到保障"},{"start":7820.21,"end":7822.21,"text":"我們協助職業債和勞工"},{"start":7822.21,"end":7824.21,"text":"已經30年,我們知道"},{"start":7824.21,"end":7826.21,"text":"勞動檢查的機制"},{"start":7827.09,"end":7829.09,"text":"事實上,在我們的社會"},{"start":7829.09,"end":7831.09,"text":"我們的國家的企業裡面"},{"start":7831.09,"end":7833.09,"text":"人數是很少的"},{"start":7833.09,"end":7835.09,"text":"就是勞動檢查的人員"},{"start":7835.09,"end":7837.09,"text":"是非常的少"},{"start":7837.09,"end":7839.09,"text":"每一個企業大概12年才會"},{"start":7839.09,"end":7841.09,"text":"有受到一次的檢查"},{"start":7841.09,"end":7843.09,"text":"我們也擔心,我們這一次的"},{"start":7843.09,"end":7845.09,"text":"淨零的這個"},{"start":7844.8,"end":7846.8,"text":"如果是自主管理的話"},{"start":7846.8,"end":7848.8,"text":"各個企業真的能做到自主管理嗎"},{"start":7848.8,"end":7850.8,"text":"我們希望說也是"},{"start":7850.8,"end":7852.8,"text":"比照勞動檢查的機制"},{"start":7852.8,"end":7854.8,"text":"可以有一個檢查"},{"start":7854.8,"end":7856.8,"text":"當然這個我有看到環保署的"},{"start":7856.8,"end":7858.8,"text":"已經有一些政策"},{"start":7858.13,"end":7860.13,"text":"事實上我相信我們很多的"},{"start":7860.13,"end":7862.13,"text":"環保團體一定會做到"},{"start":7862.13,"end":7864.13,"text":"監督跟關心的"},{"start":7864.76,"end":7866.76,"text":"持續上會監督跟關心"},{"start":7866.76,"end":7868.76,"text":"那至於剛剛我們的"},{"start":7868.76,"end":7870.76,"text":"召集人提到說"},{"start":7870.76,"end":7872.76,"text":"真正的資源是不是有回到我們的"},{"start":7872.76,"end":7874.76,"text":"弱勢跟勞工的這些裡面"},{"start":7874.76,"end":7876.76,"text":"我看勞動部的裡面也有"},{"start":7876.76,"end":7878.76,"text":"勞工的報告裡面也有了這個方案"},{"start":7878.76,"end":7880.76,"text":"我們也是一樣會持續的"},{"start":7880.76,"end":7882.76,"text":"關心這個問題"},{"start":7882.76,"end":7884.76,"text":"我們相信,如果環境好"},{"start":7884.76,"end":7886.76,"text":"對我們的勞工才是"},{"start":7886.76,"end":7888.76,"text":"真正的好,對他們"},{"start":7888.76,"end":7890.76,"text":"工作的安全才是有保障"},{"start":7890.76,"end":7892.76,"text":"對我們全國的人民的"},{"start":7892.76,"end":7894.76,"text":"身體健康也是一個是"},{"start":7894.76,"end":7896.76,"text":"真正的保障的"},{"start":7896.76,"end":7898.76,"text":"這一點我們工商協會一定會"},{"start":7898.76,"end":7900.76,"text":"持續的監督跟關心"},{"start":7900.76,"end":7902.76,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":7902.21,"end":7904.21,"text":"謝謝我們的秘書長"},{"start":7904.21,"end":7906.21,"text":"讓我們休息十分鐘"},{"start":7906.21,"end":7908.21,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8662.74,"end":8664.74,"text":"好,我們現在繼續開會"},{"start":8664.74,"end":8666.74,"text":"接下來我們邀請"},{"start":8666.74,"end":8668.74,"text":"理律法律事務所的"},{"start":8668.74,"end":8670.74,"text":"黃海寧律師"},{"start":8689.02,"end":8691.02,"text":"聽到嗎"},{"start":8691.01,"end":8693.01,"text":"大家早安,委員早"},{"start":8693.01,"end":8695.01,"text":"各位與會先進"},{"start":8695.01,"end":8697.01,"text":"各部會的代表"},{"start":8697.01,"end":8699.01,"text":"然後專家學者,大家早安"},{"start":8699.01,"end":8701.01,"text":"我是理律法律事務所"},{"start":8701.01,"end":8703.01,"text":"黃海寧黃律師"},{"start":8703.01,"end":8705.01,"text":"我今天這個公立會的"},{"start":8705.01,"end":8707.01,"text":"這個意見主要是針對"},{"start":8707.01,"end":8709.01,"text":"提綱的第一點還有第三點"},{"start":8709.01,"end":8711.01,"text":"那因為我是"},{"start":8711.01,"end":8713.01,"text":"受法學訓練"},{"start":8713.01,"end":8715.01,"text":"所以我主要會從氣候法政策學"},{"start":8715.01,"end":8717.01,"text":"以及國際貿易法"},{"start":8717.01,"end":8719.01,"text":"國際貿易政策的角度"},{"start":8719.01,"end":8721.01,"text":"來談這個"},{"start":8721.01,"end":8723.01,"text":"台灣的碳飛目前實施的狀況"},{"start":8724.84,"end":8726.84,"text":"那有一個這個很重要的"},{"start":8726.84,"end":8728.84,"text":"前提可能會需要"},{"start":8728.84,"end":8730.84,"text":"先釐清的是說"},{"start":8730.84,"end":8732.84,"text":"台灣雖然號稱說是進入了"},{"start":8732.84,"end":8734.84,"text":"這個排碳有價的時代"},{"start":8734.84,"end":8736.84,"text":"但其實實際上台灣的"},{"start":8736.84,"end":8738.84,"text":"碳定價制度呢"},{"start":8738.84,"end":8740.84,"text":"並不僅限於這個"},{"start":8740.84,"end":8742.84,"text":"價格本身"},{"start":8742.84,"end":8744.84,"text":"那在這個整個"},{"start":8744.84,"end":8746.84,"text":"碳費制度形成的過程中呢"},{"start":8746.84,"end":8748.84,"text":"我們其實已經從純粹的排放量"},{"start":8748.84,"end":8750.84,"text":"乘以"},{"start":8750.93,"end":8752.93,"text":"增收費率作為基本架構"},{"start":8752.93,"end":8754.93,"text":"慢慢的呢這個"},{"start":8754.93,"end":8756.93,"text":"考量到了這個"},{"start":8756.93,"end":8758.93,"text":"我們的產業競爭力"},{"start":8758.93,"end":8760.93,"text":"貿易條件貿易處境"},{"start":8760.93,"end":8762.93,"text":"等等的情況因此在"},{"start":8762.93,"end":8764.93,"text":"這個最基本的公式中呢去納入"},{"start":8764.93,"end":8766.93,"text":"排放量"},{"start":8766.93,"end":8768.93,"text":"的調整以及優惠費"},{"start":8768.93,"end":8770.93,"text":"率的這個調整"},{"start":8770.93,"end":8772.93,"text":"那排放量調整其實也同時包含"},{"start":8772.93,"end":8774.93,"text":"其針門檻就是所謂的"},{"start":8774.93,"end":8776.93,"text":"K值兩萬五千公噸"},{"start":8776.93,"end":8778.93,"text":"以及就是我們有的"},{"start":8778.93,"end":8780.93,"text":"這個高碳"},{"start":8780.93,"end":8782.93,"text":"洩漏風險行業的"},{"start":8782.93,"end":8784.93,"text":"這個係數值"},{"start":8785.56,"end":8787.56,"text":"那在這樣的情況下呢其實就"},{"start":8787.56,"end":8789.56,"text":"讓這個"},{"start":8789.56,"end":8791.56,"text":"這個公式變得有一點"},{"start":8791.56,"end":8793.56,"text":"複雜"},{"start":8792.99,"end":8794.99,"text":"那其實更重要的是說"},{"start":8794.99,"end":8796.99,"text":"除了起徵門檻跟國內減量"},{"start":8796.99,"end":8798.99,"text":"額度的扣底的使用之外其實"},{"start":8798.99,"end":8800.99,"text":"這整套機制呢都系於一個"},{"start":8800.99,"end":8802.99,"text":"非常非常重要的制度就是所謂的"},{"start":8802.99,"end":8804.99,"text":"自主減量計畫"},{"start":8804.99,"end":8806.99,"text":"也就是說這些調整的制度呢"},{"start":8806.99,"end":8808.99,"text":"都與企業好事業"},{"start":8808.99,"end":8810.99,"text":"他提出並執行自主減量"},{"start":8810.99,"end":8812.99,"text":"計畫投入轉型成本"},{"start":8812.99,"end":8814.99,"text":"以及持續達到各年度"},{"start":8814.99,"end":8816.99,"text":"以及最重要的一百一十九年"},{"start":8816.99,"end":8818.99,"text":"二零三零年的指定目標"},{"start":8818.99,"end":8820.99,"text":"指定減量目標相"},{"start":8820.99,"end":8822.99,"text":"相連結"},{"start":8822.99,"end":8824.99,"text":"因此其實事業在他"},{"start":8824.99,"end":8826.99,"text":"減量減碳他實際負擔的"},{"start":8826.99,"end":8828.99,"text":"這個碳成本呢"},{"start":8828.99,"end":8830.99,"text":"並不完全取決於他排放量"},{"start":8830.99,"end":8832.99,"text":"乘上一個飛率這麼簡單"},{"start":8832.99,"end":8834.99,"text":"其實更"},{"start":8834.99,"end":8836.99,"text":"更進一步的他其實和他的減量承諾"},{"start":8836.99,"end":8838.99,"text":"他的減量表現"},{"start":8838.99,"end":8840.99,"text":"他的產業條件他的貿易處境"},{"start":8840.99,"end":8842.99,"text":"都密切相關"},{"start":8843.8,"end":8845.8,"text":"所以呢其實我們過去"},{"start":8845.8,"end":8847.8,"text":"一段時間的研究呢其實就是說"},{"start":8847.8,"end":8849.8,"text":"台灣的碳費已經不單純"},{"start":8849.8,"end":8851.8,"text":"只是一個單一價格訊號"},{"start":8851.8,"end":8853.8,"text":"引導減量一個這麼簡單的公式"},{"start":8853.8,"end":8855.8,"text":"他其實是一套"},{"start":8855.8,"end":8857.8,"text":"混合型的溫室氣體減量制度"},{"start":8857.8,"end":8859.8,"text":"所以我們在"},{"start":8859.8,"end":8861.8,"text":"減試跟看待碳費這個"},{"start":8861.8,"end":8863.8,"text":"制度的時候其實應該要以他是"},{"start":8863.8,"end":8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art":9258.76,"end":9260.76,"text":"好那歐盟"},{"start":9260.76,"end":9262.76,"text":"目前的這個扣底槽案第八條"},{"start":9262.76,"end":9264.76,"text":"第二項呢其實有明確的說明"},{"start":9264.76,"end":9266.76,"text":"如果這個支付碳定價"},{"start":9266.76,"end":9268.76,"text":"的廠商他能夠"},{"start":9268.76,"end":9270.76,"text":"他有直接再收到這一筆金額的"},{"start":9270.76,"end":9272.76,"text":"補貼的話就是在歐盟的"},{"start":9272.76,"end":9274.76,"text":"與會下就是reinvestment的話呢"},{"start":9274.76,"end":9276.76,"text":"那其實他這部分的補貼"},{"start":9276.76,"end":9278.76,"text":"是不用被扣除的"},{"start":9278.76,"end":9280.76,"text":"那對於這個支付給歐盟"},{"start":9280.76,"end":9282.76,"text":"CBAM憑證的費用來說他其實是"},{"start":9282.76,"end":9284.76,"text":"比較有利的計算方式"},{"start":9284.76,"end":9286.76,"text":"好那以上報告謝謝"},{"start":9287.95,"end":9289.95,"text":"好謝謝黃律師"},{"start":9289.95,"end":9291.95,"text":"接下來我們邀請台灣大學公共"},{"start":9291.95,"end":9293.95,"text":"事務研究所的"},{"start":9293.95,"end":9295.95,"text":"李仲軒教授"},{"start":9315.5,"end":9317.5,"text":"好"},{"start":9317.09,"end":9319.09,"text":"主席各位與會先進"},{"start":9319.09,"end":9321.09,"text":"大家好"},{"start":9321.09,"end":9323.09,"text":"首先我想表達一下對於"},{"start":9323.09,"end":9325.09,"text":"這個我們"},{"start":9325.09,"end":9327.09,"text":"衛環委員會"},{"start":9327.09,"end":9329.09,"text":"還有林昭偉"},{"start":9329.09,"end":9331.09,"text":"召集這一次的公聽會表達"},{"start":9331.09,"end":9333.09,"text":"我的敬意"},{"start":9333.09,"end":9335.09,"text":"那一方面也對於能夠邀請"},{"start":9335.09,"end":9337.09,"text":"讓我能夠來這邊表達個人的一些潛艦"},{"start":9337.09,"end":9339.09,"text":"表達謝意"},{"start":9339.09,"end":9341.09,"text":"那也由於這樣子的這個敬意"},{"start":9341.09,"end":9343.09,"text":"跟感謝所以我"},{"start":9343.09,"end":9345.09,"text":"想要針對就是說"},{"start":9345.09,"end":9347.09,"text":"這一次會議的一些最核心的主題"},{"start":9347.09,"end":9349.09,"text":"提供一些比較"},{"start":9349.09,"end":9351.09,"text":"深層次的一些"},{"start":9351.09,"end":9353.09,"text":"觀察"},{"start":9353.09,"end":9355.09,"text":"希望能夠提供因為這些"},{"start":9355.09,"end":9357.09,"text":"關於碳費的"},{"start":9357.09,"end":9359.09,"text":"性質跟這個"},{"start":9359.09,"end":9361.09,"text":"的這個本質性的問題"},{"start":9361.09,"end":9363.09,"text":"會對於我們今天討論的各項議題都產生"},{"start":9363.09,"end":9365.09,"text":"程度不等的影響"},{"start":9365.09,"end":9367.09,"text":"所以我想針對就是"},{"start":9367.09,"end":9369.09,"text":"碳低價整體推動的策略"},{"start":9369.09,"end":9371.09,"text":"跟所謂合為所謂的合理的"},{"start":9371.09,"end":9373.09,"text":"誘因減量誘因"},{"start":9373.09,"end":9375.09,"text":"提供一些想法"},{"start":9376.74,"end":9378.74,"text":"我想大家都很清楚"},{"start":9378.74,"end":9380.74,"text":"就是說我國的碳費或者是我國的"},{"start":9380.74,"end":9382.74,"text":"碳低價制度基本上是一個"},{"start":9382.74,"end":9384.74,"text":"連環船就是一個"},{"start":9384.74,"end":9386.74,"text":"一個完整的系統"},{"start":9386.74,"end":9388.74,"text":"那以碳費為中心"},{"start":9388.74,"end":9390.74,"text":"那資源減量計畫"},{"start":9390.74,"end":9392.74,"text":"或者是減量額度透過抵換"},{"start":9392.74,"end":9394.74,"text":"那自主減量"},{"start":9394.74,"end":9396.74,"text":"計畫則是"},{"start":9396.74,"end":9398.74,"text":"一個優惠費率的"},{"start":9398.74,"end":9400.74,"text":"一個前提"},{"start":9400.74,"end":9402.74,"text":"要件那從這個"},{"start":9402.74,"end":9404.74,"text":"去貫穿了整個我國的"},{"start":9404.74,"end":9406.74,"text":"碳低價制度"},{"start":9406.74,"end":9408.74,"text":"未來甚至可能好像"},{"start":9408.74,"end":9410.74,"text":"ETS發展那周邊的一些"},{"start":9410.74,"end":9412.74,"text":"相關的機制更不在話下"},{"start":9412.74,"end":9414.74,"text":"那這個整套的這個"},{"start":9414.74,"end":9416.74,"text":"策略我想的性質"},{"start":9416.74,"end":9418.74,"text":"到底是什麼會是尤其是碳費"},{"start":9418.74,"end":9420.74,"text":"就會屬於一個核心問題"},{"start":9422.15,"end":9424.15,"text":"那我想呢"},{"start":9424.15,"end":9426.15,"text":"碳費的這個機制到底是什麼呢"},{"start":9426.15,"end":9428.15,"text":"這個基本上"},{"start":9428.15,"end":9430.15,"text":"可能有兩種東西"},{"start":9430.15,"end":9432.15,"text":"第一種是做為一種經濟誘因"},{"start":9432.15,"end":9434.15,"text":"市場工具"},{"start":9434.15,"end":9436.15,"text":"甚至是更精確的講一種價格工具"},{"start":9436.15,"end":9438.15,"text":"那另外一種是做為一種傳統式"},{"start":9438.15,"end":9440.15,"text":"的誘因其實它走的是"},{"start":9440.15,"end":9442.15,"text":"命令控制的一個模式"},{"start":9442.15,"end":9444.15,"text":"到底是哪一種我想這個不是"},{"start":9444.15,"end":9446.15,"text":"只有看文藝來做"},{"start":9446.15,"end":9448.15,"text":"解釋的這要看這個整體"},{"start":9448.15,"end":9450.15,"text":"的立法議題跟整體的"},{"start":9450.15,"end":9452.15,"text":"立法實質的這個當時的"},{"start":9452.15,"end":9454.15,"text":"構想"},{"start":9454.15,"end":9456.15,"text":"那我們回到這個修正草案"},{"start":9456.15,"end":9458.15,"text":"當時的不論是"},{"start":9458.15,"end":9460.15,"text":"布板或者是院板"},{"start":9460.15,"end":9462.15,"text":"都有明白的解釋"},{"start":9462.15,"end":9464.15,"text":"就是碳費是做為一個經濟誘因的工具"},{"start":9464.15,"end":9466.15,"text":"那這些經濟誘因的工具呢"},{"start":9466.15,"end":9468.15,"text":"其實"},{"start":9468.15,"end":9470.15,"text":"一般學理上來說"},{"start":9470.15,"end":9472.15,"text":"當然就是跟所謂的comment control"},{"start":9472.15,"end":9474.15,"text":"是做相對的就是命令控制"},{"start":9474.15,"end":9476.15,"text":"基本上設定目標"},{"start":9476.15,"end":9478.15,"text":"然後以一定的管制的手段"},{"start":9478.15,"end":9480.15,"text":"去確保目標的實現"},{"start":9480.15,"end":9482.15,"text":"至於這管制手段有可能是"},{"start":9482.15,"end":9484.15,"text":"棒子有可能是蘿蔔"},{"start":9484.15,"end":9486.15,"text":"這不一定反向也可以操作"},{"start":9486.15,"end":9488.15,"text":"把蘿蔔抽走就變成棒子"},{"start":9488.15,"end":9490.15,"text":"所以這個都是這個"},{"start":9490.15,"end":9492.15,"text":"但是這不改變它是一個命令控制的本質"},{"start":9493.18,"end":9495.18,"text":"但是如果你是經濟誘因模式的話"},{"start":9495.18,"end":9497.18,"text":"不論你是走價格還是走數量工具"},{"start":9497.18,"end":9499.18,"text":"基本上你都是要"},{"start":9499.18,"end":9501.18,"text":"訴諸於市場機制"},{"start":9501.18,"end":9503.18,"text":"透過價格跟市場的"},{"start":9503.18,"end":9505.18,"text":"供需改變"},{"start":9505.18,"end":9507.18,"text":"來達到你的管制的目標"},{"start":9507.18,"end":9509.18,"text":"我想這個是一個理論上的起點"},{"start":9509.92,"end":9511.92,"text":"從我們不論是當時的環保署"},{"start":9511.92,"end":9513.92,"text":"或者是當時的"},{"start":9513.92,"end":9515.92,"text":"行政院"},{"start":9515.92,"end":9517.92,"text":"所做的當時的"},{"start":9517.92,"end":9519.92,"text":"說明來講的話"},{"start":9519.92,"end":9521.92,"text":"都明確的揭示"},{"start":9521.92,"end":9523.92,"text":"探定價是一個經濟誘因工具"},{"start":9523.92,"end":9525.92,"text":"那它不是一個紅蘿蔔"},{"start":9525.92,"end":9527.92,"text":"也不是一個棒子的誘因"},{"start":9527.92,"end":9529.92,"text":"它是一個真正的市場機制的"},{"start":9529.92,"end":9531.92,"text":"經濟誘因"},{"start":9531.92,"end":9533.92,"text":"環境部也後續不斷強調"},{"start":9533.92,"end":9535.92,"text":"它是經濟誘因"},{"start":9535.92,"end":9537.92,"text":"不是財政工具"},{"start":9538.47,"end":9540.47,"text":"那我們看看"},{"start":9540.47,"end":9542.47,"text":"現實上的法規"},{"start":9542.47,"end":9544.47,"text":"當然就是很簡單其實探費基礎"},{"start":9544.47,"end":9546.47,"text":"就是28條"},{"start":9546.47,"end":9548.47,"text":"就是一排放量乘以費率就得到"},{"start":9548.47,"end":9550.47,"text":"費額基本上就是這麼簡單"},{"start":9550.47,"end":9552.47,"text":"可是29條加了一個自主"},{"start":9552.47,"end":9554.47,"text":"減量計畫加優惠費率"},{"start":9554.47,"end":9556.47,"text":"那這個何者是主"},{"start":9556.47,"end":9558.47,"text":"何者是寵我想應該是清楚的"},{"start":9558.47,"end":9560.47,"text":"28條是主 29條優惠"},{"start":9560.47,"end":9562.47,"text":"費率是負"},{"start":9562.47,"end":9564.47,"text":"那為什麼因為優惠費率"},{"start":9564.47,"end":9566.47,"text":"自主減量計畫這個地方"},{"start":9566.47,"end":9568.47,"text":"其實是走向了一個"},{"start":9568.47,"end":9570.47,"text":"以命令控制為導向的一個模式"},{"start":9573.49,"end":9575.49,"text":"當然這後續就是還有一些"},{"start":9575.49,"end":9577.49,"text":"我們目前的制度裡面還有一些關於K值"},{"start":9577.49,"end":9579.49,"text":"關於碳洩漏"},{"start":9579.49,"end":9581.49,"text":"它的法律依據為何基本上我也不是很了解"},{"start":9581.49,"end":9583.49,"text":"那"},{"start":9583.49,"end":9585.49,"text":"碳洩漏也談到的"},{"start":9585.49,"end":9587.49,"text":"基本上不存在於碳費制度裡面"},{"start":9587.49,"end":9589.49,"text":"是在ETS"},{"start":9589.49,"end":9591.49,"text":"還有這個邊境"},{"start":9591.49,"end":9593.49,"text":"邊境措施這個地方"},{"start":9593.49,"end":9595.49,"text":"所以"},{"start":9596.61,"end":9598.61,"text":"這個當然是另論啦"},{"start":9598.61,"end":9600.61,"text":"我有另外寫一個文章"},{"start":9600.61,"end":9602.61,"text":"不過這個比較是minor的問題"},{"start":9602.61,"end":9604.61,"text":"那我們透過三個執法之後行所有碳費的制度"},{"start":9604.76,"end":9606.76,"text":"所以基本上"},{"start":9606.76,"end":9608.76,"text":"從現行的狀況來看的話"},{"start":9608.76,"end":9610.76,"text":"我們好像"},{"start":9610.76,"end":9612.76,"text":"應該已經走向了一個"},{"start":9612.76,"end":9614.76,"text":"跟當時立法不同的構想"},{"start":9614.76,"end":9616.76,"text":"那已經不再是"},{"start":9616.76,"end":9618.76,"text":"一個經濟優先的工具"},{"start":9618.76,"end":9620.76,"text":"而變成一個高度監管"},{"start":9620.76,"end":9622.76,"text":"對於廠商或者是這個"},{"start":9622.76,"end":9624.76,"text":"廠子做這個自主減量計畫的"},{"start":9624.76,"end":9626.76,"text":"相關的控制"},{"start":9626.76,"end":9628.76,"text":"做一個高密度的控制"},{"start":9628.76,"end":9630.76,"text":"那基本上我認為就是說"},{"start":9630.76,"end":9632.76,"text":"除了就是說對於民主"},{"start":9632.76,"end":9634.76,"text":"或對於法治"},{"start":9634.76,"end":9636.76,"text":"到底是不是一個"},{"start":9636.76,"end":9638.76,"text":"當時的討論這個審議過程"},{"start":9638.76,"end":9640.76,"text":"到底有沒有意義"},{"start":9640.76,"end":9642.76,"text":"對於法治的堅持也沒有損害之外"},{"start":9642.76,"end":9644.76,"text":"從這個政策的角度來看的話"},{"start":9644.76,"end":9646.76,"text":"採取非經濟優先模式的工具"},{"start":9646.76,"end":9648.76,"text":"我覺得並不本質上構成什麼問題"},{"start":9653.32,"end":9655.32,"text":"可是我覺得還是必須要了解"},{"start":9655.32,"end":9657.32,"text":"傳統誘因跟經濟誘因的差異"},{"start":9657.32,"end":9659.32,"text":"那還有要了解說為什麼選"},{"start":9659.32,"end":9661.32,"text":"經濟誘因的理由"},{"start":9661.32,"end":9663.32,"text":"很大的原因就在於擔心管制失靈"},{"start":9663.32,"end":9665.32,"text":"尤其是擔心行政部門的"},{"start":9665.32,"end":9667.32,"text":"管制量能的局限"},{"start":9667.32,"end":9669.32,"text":"那這個部分的因素也沒有改變"},{"start":9669.32,"end":9671.32,"text":"當時考量的因素到現在"},{"start":9671.32,"end":9673.32,"text":"是不是改變了是不是行政部門的"},{"start":9673.32,"end":9675.32,"text":"量能變得很強"},{"start":9675.32,"end":9677.32,"text":"可以做很綿密的管控"},{"start":9677.32,"end":9679.32,"text":"然後管制所以可以有這個"},{"start":9679.32,"end":9681.32,"text":"餘裕採取這樣子的高密度的管制"},{"start":9681.32,"end":9683.32,"text":"這是我想要提出來的問題"},{"start":9683.32,"end":9685.32,"text":"那後面當然有一些"},{"start":9685.32,"end":9687.32,"text":"更細的關於就是說"},{"start":9687.32,"end":9689.32,"text":"到底如果原始的規劃的話"},{"start":9689.32,"end":9691.32,"text":"碳費所引發的這個經濟誘因"},{"start":9691.32,"end":9693.32,"text":"到底是一個什麼樣的邏輯"},{"start":9693.32,"end":9695.32,"text":"我這邊有一些比較細的說法"},{"start":9695.32,"end":9697.32,"text":"不過時間有限"},{"start":9697.32,"end":9699.32,"text":"所以我想強調就是說"},{"start":9699.32,"end":9701.32,"text":"其實真正的誘因"},{"start":9701.32,"end":9703.32,"text":"在這個經濟誘因的模式底下的話"},{"start":9703.32,"end":9705.32,"text":"是來自於市場"},{"start":9705.32,"end":9707.32,"text":"來自於市場的鼓勵跟獎勵"},{"start":9707.32,"end":9709.32,"text":"而這樣的獎勵才會有"},{"start":9709.32,"end":9711.32,"text":"足夠的動力才比我們"},{"start":9711.32,"end":9713.32,"text":"所謂的優惠費率來講"},{"start":9713.32,"end":9715.32,"text":"才真正的有驅逆"},{"start":9715.32,"end":9717.32,"text":"對於廠商來講"},{"start":9717.32,"end":9719.32,"text":"那如果沒有這種的話"},{"start":9719.32,"end":9721.32,"text":"其實這個都是比較"},{"start":9721.32,"end":9723.32,"text":"是不足夠的"},{"start":9723.32,"end":9725.32,"text":"那當然我還是要強調就是"},{"start":9725.32,"end":9727.32,"text":"也因此得到碳費的收入"},{"start":9727.32,"end":9729.32,"text":"會比目前來看的多"},{"start":9729.32,"end":9731.32,"text":"那這個時候優先補助這個"},{"start":9731.32,"end":9733.32,"text":"脆弱團體然後確保公正轉型"},{"start":9733.32,"end":9735.32,"text":"的意義會更為巨大"},{"start":9737.36,"end":9739.36,"text":"所以具體來說就是說"},{"start":9739.36,"end":9741.36,"text":"目前談到的這幾個制度來講的話"},{"start":9741.36,"end":9743.36,"text":"費率調整我認為就是說"},{"start":9743.36,"end":9745.36,"text":"現在在現行模式底下調高費率"},{"start":9745.36,"end":9747.36,"text":"基本上只達到固化"},{"start":9747.36,"end":9749.36,"text":"就是自主減量計畫"},{"start":9749.36,"end":9751.36,"text":"然後讓新參與的"},{"start":9751.36,"end":9753.36,"text":"新參與的廠商或者是"},{"start":9753.36,"end":9755.36,"text":"已加入的廠商不至於"},{"start":9755.36,"end":9757.36,"text":"退出或者是違約"},{"start":9757.36,"end":9759.36,"text":"這個可能是它目前的效果"},{"start":9759.36,"end":9761.36,"text":"不過並沒有改變就是"},{"start":9761.36,"end":9763.36,"text":"以自主減量計畫為核心的這個模式"},{"start":9763.36,"end":9765.36,"text":"那自主減量計畫這邊的話"},{"start":9765.36,"end":9767.36,"text":"在監督我認為想要"},{"start":9767.36,"end":9769.36,"text":"提醒的就是說自主減量計畫裡面的"},{"start":9769.36,"end":9771.36,"text":"模式有很多種其實有些"},{"start":9771.36,"end":9773.36,"text":"在自願減量計畫裡面"},{"start":9773.36,"end":9775.36,"text":"其實它的這個如果以"},{"start":9775.36,"end":9777.36,"text":"碳的這個credit來講其實它並不是"},{"start":9777.36,"end":9779.36,"text":"高價值的但是它現在"},{"start":9779.36,"end":9781.36,"text":"都是用量來評估比如說像"},{"start":9781.36,"end":9783.36,"text":"一些節能的這些"},{"start":9783.36,"end":9785.36,"text":"並不是高價值的"},{"start":9785.36,"end":9787.36,"text":"碳權或者是credit所以"},{"start":9787.36,"end":9789.36,"text":"如果還是用一樣的方式去做評估"},{"start":9789.36,"end":9791.36,"text":"基本上要在公開"},{"start":9791.36,"end":9793.36,"text":"檢查的時候可能這會是一個評估"},{"start":9793.36,"end":9795.36,"text":"的重點好那以上報告謝謝"},{"start":9796.14,"end":9798.14,"text":"好謝謝李教授接下來請"},{"start":9798.14,"end":9800.14,"text":"台灣氣候行動"},{"start":9800.14,"end":9802.14,"text":"網絡那個林彥廷"},{"start":9802.14,"end":9804.14,"text":"研究員"},{"start":9806.68,"end":9808.68,"text":"月情委員在座前建議大家好"},{"start":9810.4,"end":9812.4,"text":"我先"},{"start":9812.4,"end":9814.4,"text":"先介紹一下先說明一下"},{"start":9814.4,"end":9816.4,"text":"我們就是就這一場的碳費"},{"start":9816.4,"end":9818.4,"text":"供應會包括台灣"},{"start":9818.4,"end":9820.4,"text":"氣候行動網絡環境全保護"},{"start":9820.4,"end":9822.4,"text":"基金會跟地球公民基金會"},{"start":9822.4,"end":9824.4,"text":"跟綠色公民行動聯盟"},{"start":9824.4,"end":9826.4,"text":"我們有六點的共同訴求"},{"start":9826.4,"end":9828.4,"text":"第一個是挑釁我們"},{"start":9828.4,"end":9830.4,"text":"希望下一期的碳費"},{"start":9830.4,"end":9832.4,"text":"調升至800到"},{"start":9832.4,"end":9834.4,"text":"1200確保企業旅行"},{"start":9834.4,"end":9836.4,"text":"減碳的義務第二"},{"start":9836.4,"end":9838.4,"text":"點是減到優惠"},{"start":9838.4,"end":9840.4,"text":"利率比基數標竿的消減值"},{"start":9840.4,"end":9842.4,"text":"去提高企業的減碳量"},{"start":9842.4,"end":9844.4,"text":"第三是就自主減量"},{"start":9844.4,"end":9846.4,"text":"計劃去公開減量"},{"start":9846.4,"end":9848.4,"text":"執行報告去"},{"start":9848.4,"end":9850.4,"text":"就這個減碳進度可以讓全民"},{"start":9850.4,"end":9852.4,"text":"監督第四第五點"},{"start":9852.4,"end":9854.4,"text":"是主要是針對碳費收入"},{"start":9854.4,"end":9856.4,"text":"跟第六點主要針對碳費收入"},{"start":9856.4,"end":9858.4,"text":"的部分第一個是優先"},{"start":9858.4,"end":9860.4,"text":"希望可以優先用於"},{"start":9860.4,"end":9862.4,"text":"不利處境全體的調適"},{"start":9862.4,"end":9864.4,"text":"支持再來是提高"},{"start":9864.4,"end":9866.4,"text":"碳費總收入才能去"},{"start":9866.4,"end":9868.4,"text":"引導這個低碳創新政策"},{"start":9868.4,"end":9870.4,"text":"去協助產業減碳"},{"start":9870.4,"end":9872.4,"text":"最後是在補助辦法裡面"},{"start":9872.4,"end":9874.4,"text":"去納入公正轉型的指標"},{"start":9874.4,"end":9876.4,"text":"然後去驅動企業"},{"start":9876.4,"end":9878.4,"text":"實踐衝擊盤點跟利害關係的協商"},{"start":9878.4,"end":9880.4,"text":"跟勞動力轉型規劃"},{"start":9880.4,"end":9882.4,"text":"等公正轉型的行動"},{"start":9882.4,"end":9884.4,"text":"那因為前面有"},{"start":9884.4,"end":9886.4,"text":"我們夥伴已經有稍微"},{"start":9886.4,"end":9888.4,"text":"提過所以我會直播幾點跟大家"},{"start":9888.4,"end":9890.4,"text":"做說明"},{"start":9890.96,"end":9892.96,"text":"第一個其實"},{"start":9892.96,"end":9894.96,"text":"前面大家也理解說這次的碳費"},{"start":9894.96,"end":9896.96,"text":"收入總共達49.7億"},{"start":9896.96,"end":9898.96,"text":"我們其實現在"},{"start":9898.96,"end":9900.96,"text":"的碳費制度的這個"},{"start":9900.96,"end":9902.96,"text":"目的其實跟原本的立法"},{"start":9902.96,"end":9904.96,"text":"核心其實有點不太一樣原本"},{"start":9904.96,"end":9906.96,"text":"已經變成是以自主減量計劃"},{"start":9906.96,"end":9908.96,"text":"為核心的碳費制度"},{"start":9908.96,"end":9910.96,"text":"就像剛剛先進有提到的"},{"start":9910.96,"end":9912.96,"text":"到底我們是不是以個市場"},{"start":9912.96,"end":9914.96,"text":"為驅動經濟誘因去討論"},{"start":9914.96,"end":9916.96,"text":"的這一個碳費制度"},{"start":9916.96,"end":9918.96,"text":"好像跟原本的立法初衷有點"},{"start":9918.96,"end":9920.96,"text":"不一樣了這樣子"},{"start":9920.96,"end":9922.96,"text":"那先說明第一點"},{"start":9922.96,"end":9924.96,"text":"為什麼會想要"},{"start":9924.96,"end":9926.96,"text":"去調升這個碳費的"},{"start":9926.96,"end":9928.96,"text":"這個費率呢"},{"start":9928.96,"end":9930.96,"text":"因為其實在碳費費率審議委員會"},{"start":9930.96,"end":9932.96,"text":"我也是第一屆的這個"},{"start":9932.96,"end":9934.96,"text":"審議委員會的這個委員"},{"start":9934.96,"end":9936.96,"text":"我們其實委員們都有提出說"},{"start":9936.96,"end":9938.96,"text":"希望在2030年的時候"},{"start":9938.96,"end":9940.96,"text":"可以把費率達到1200到1800"},{"start":9940.96,"end":9942.96,"text":"那其實在"},{"start":9942.96,"end":9944.96,"text":"之前的討論裡面"},{"start":9944.96,"end":9946.96,"text":"我們希望接下來是一個"},{"start":9946.96,"end":9948.96,"text":"接替式的上升"},{"start":9948.96,"end":9950.96,"text":"所以我們希望下一期的話照理來說"},{"start":9950.96,"end":9952.96,"text":"應該要從800到1200去做討論"},{"start":9952.96,"end":9954.96,"text":"這樣子我還希望"},{"start":9954.96,"end":9956.96,"text":"相較於我們鄰近的國家"},{"start":9956.96,"end":9958.96,"text":"新加坡跟日本跟韓國"},{"start":9958.96,"end":9960.96,"text":"跟前面其實有委員們提到"},{"start":9960.96,"end":9962.96,"text":"其實國際的標準"},{"start":9962.96,"end":9964.96,"text":"我們應該要把這個費率拉高"},{"start":9964.96,"end":9966.96,"text":"那才有機會驅動這個企業去"},{"start":9966.96,"end":9968.96,"text":"用一般費率讓他們在做這個成本"},{"start":9968.96,"end":9970.96,"text":"去規劃的時候去驅動他們"},{"start":9970.96,"end":9972.96,"text":"碳費就是減碳的措施"},{"start":9974.17,"end":9976.17,"text":"那其實相關的這個邊境減量成本"},{"start":9976.17,"end":9978.17,"text":"其實都已經大於"},{"start":9978.17,"end":9980.17,"text":"目前的這個碳費集資了"},{"start":9980.17,"end":9982.17,"text":"碳費的這個費率了所以"},{"start":9982.17,"end":9984.17,"text":"有必要把這個一般費率拉高"},{"start":9984.17,"end":9986.17,"text":"才能驅動這個企業的減碳"},{"start":9987.77,"end":9989.77,"text":"所以我們覺得去"},{"start":9989.77,"end":9991.77,"text":"先去把提高一般費率增加"},{"start":9991.77,"end":9993.77,"text":"未落實自主減量計劃的成本"},{"start":9993.77,"end":9995.77,"text":"促使企業去提出具體的減碳入境"},{"start":9995.77,"end":9997.77,"text":"那現在"},{"start":9997.77,"end":9999.77,"text":"近九成的工廠其實已經通過"},{"start":9999.77,"end":10001.77,"text":"自主減量計劃"},{"start":10001.77,"end":10003.77,"text":"調升一般費率其實對多數企業"},{"start":10003.77,"end":10005.77,"text":"並不會直接增加負擔"},{"start":10005.77,"end":10007.77,"text":"反而可以促使未申請的工廠去做加入"},{"start":10007.77,"end":10009.77,"text":"那第二點比較是"},{"start":10009.77,"end":10011.77,"text":"優惠費率B的標準"},{"start":10011.77,"end":10013.77,"text":"我們發現的問題這樣子"},{"start":10013.77,"end":10015.77,"text":"就是現在其實我們看到"},{"start":10015.77,"end":10017.77,"text":"在這個優惠被"},{"start":10017.77,"end":10019.77,"text":"預逼計數標準的這個"},{"start":10019.77,"end":10021.77,"text":"小減率的部分其實"},{"start":10021.77,"end":10023.77,"text":"已經有將近33家的企業"},{"start":10023.77,"end":10025.77,"text":"在2025年就已經達到"},{"start":10025.77,"end":10027.77,"text":"2030目標年的"},{"start":10027.77,"end":10029.77,"text":"指定目標這樣子"},{"start":10029.77,"end":10031.77,"text":"總共285廠將近84%"},{"start":10031.77,"end":10033.77,"text":"的這個減量幅度"},{"start":10033.77,"end":10035.77,"text":"他們不足10%這樣子"},{"start":10035.77,"end":10037.77,"text":"大概有四成的這個工廠他們"},{"start":10037.77,"end":10039.77,"text":"預估的減量沒有達到1萬"},{"start":10039.77,"end":10041.77,"text":"公噸所以我們是覺得"},{"start":10041.77,"end":10043.77,"text":"在這部分"},{"start":10043.77,"end":10045.77,"text":"環境部應該要認真去檢討優惠"},{"start":10045.77,"end":10047.77,"text":"被預逼的部分因為基本上"},{"start":10047.77,"end":10049.77,"text":"你就已經達成了2030年的"},{"start":10049.77,"end":10051.77,"text":"目標其實"},{"start":10051.77,"end":10053.77,"text":"企業們幾乎就是躺著就已經達成"},{"start":10053.77,"end":10055.77,"text":"這個目標那應該要把這個目標"},{"start":10055.77,"end":10057.77,"text":"拉得再緊一點"},{"start":10057.77,"end":10059.77,"text":"才有機會讓他們再更認真的"},{"start":10059.77,"end":10061.77,"text":"減碳促使更多的減碳"},{"start":10061.77,"end":10063.77,"text":"減碳的"},{"start":10063.77,"end":10065.77,"text":"效益這樣子"},{"start":10065.77,"end":10067.77,"text":"那其實在我們發現"},{"start":10067.77,"end":10069.77,"text":"其實在2025年"},{"start":10069.77,"end":10071.77,"text":"其中20大的這個排彈大戶"},{"start":10071.77,"end":10073.77,"text":"中油"},{"start":10073.77,"end":10075.77,"text":"南亞塑膠麥寮總廠跟台塑石化"},{"start":10075.77,"end":10077.77,"text":"都已經在2025都已經"},{"start":10077.77,"end":10079.77,"text":"達到2030的指定目標了"},{"start":10079.77,"end":10081.77,"text":"所以這個跟"},{"start":10081.77,"end":10083.77,"text":"另外其實"},{"start":10083.77,"end":10085.77,"text":"20大的這個排彈企業"},{"start":10085.77,"end":10087.77,"text":"總共有6廠"},{"start":10087.77,"end":10089.77,"text":"他們其實也"},{"start":10089.77,"end":10091.77,"text":"他們其實優惠費率也幫助他們"},{"start":10091.77,"end":10093.77,"text":"去節省大概170.5億"},{"start":10093.77,"end":10095.77,"text":"元的這個費率"},{"start":10095.77,"end":10097.77,"text":"這樣子所以其實反而是"},{"start":10097.77,"end":10099.77,"text":"造成說"},{"start":10099.77,"end":10101.77,"text":"越少的碳費沒有實質達到這個減碳的效果這樣子"},{"start":10104.68,"end":10106.68,"text":"那第四點跟第五點的部分"},{"start":10106.68,"end":10108.68,"text":"其實剛剛夥伴有稍微提到"},{"start":10108.68,"end":10110.68,"text":"我這邊就比較就不會多談"},{"start":10110.68,"end":10112.68,"text":"那比較是談到等一下會談到"},{"start":10112.68,"end":10114.68,"text":"第六點跟第三點的部分"},{"start":10114.68,"end":10116.68,"text":"碳費補助辦法的部分"},{"start":10116.68,"end":10118.68,"text":"這個我們剛好上幾週的時候"},{"start":10118.68,"end":10120.68,"text":"環境部有召開這個辦法"},{"start":10120.68,"end":10122.68,"text":"這個討論這樣子"},{"start":10122.68,"end":10124.68,"text":"我們是認為說"},{"start":10124.68,"end":10126.68,"text":"應該要納入公正轉型的目標"},{"start":10126.68,"end":10128.68,"text":"即使現在的碳費有分了大概"},{"start":10128.68,"end":10130.68,"text":"快2億元讓國發會去"},{"start":10130.68,"end":10132.68,"text":"操作這個公正轉型的"},{"start":10132.68,"end":10134.68,"text":"補助機制這樣子"},{"start":10134.68,"end":10136.68,"text":"但是其實在"},{"start":10136.68,"end":10138.68,"text":"企業自主減量計畫"},{"start":10138.68,"end":10140.68,"text":"涉及生產技術與製程的改變"},{"start":10140.68,"end":10142.68,"text":"的部分因為這其實對勞動力會有一些"},{"start":10142.68,"end":10144.68,"text":"的變化這樣子其實在"},{"start":10144.68,"end":10146.68,"text":"申請這個計畫的時候"},{"start":10146.68,"end":10148.68,"text":"並沒有要求企業去落實公正"},{"start":10148.68,"end":10150.68,"text":"轉型所以我們覺得"},{"start":10150.68,"end":10152.68,"text":"應該要去透過這一個"},{"start":10152.68,"end":10154.68,"text":"碳費機制讓這個建立這個"},{"start":10154.68,"end":10156.68,"text":"厲害關係者的這個義和跟"},{"start":10156.68,"end":10158.68,"text":"社會溝通去設定"},{"start":10158.68,"end":10160.68,"text":"比較科學基礎的目標的這個"},{"start":10160.68,"end":10162.68,"text":"來看計畫來衝擊影響評估"},{"start":10162.68,"end":10164.68,"text":"跟公正轉型的計畫"},{"start":10164.68,"end":10166.68,"text":"來去定期去追蹤"},{"start":10166.68,"end":10168.68,"text":"相關的辦法可以在"},{"start":10168.68,"end":10170.68,"text":"溫室氣體減量計數及"},{"start":10170.68,"end":10172.68,"text":"抱歉再給我1分鐘"},{"start":10172.68,"end":10174.68,"text":"及氣候及這個相關"},{"start":10174.68,"end":10176.68,"text":"辦法裡面去納入一些計畫"},{"start":10176.68,"end":10178.68,"text":"裡面去做設定"},{"start":10178.68,"end":10180.68,"text":"最後一點再多談一下這個"},{"start":10180.68,"end":10182.68,"text":"公開減量執行報告的部分"},{"start":10182.68,"end":10184.68,"text":"因為現在即使自主減量計畫"},{"start":10184.68,"end":10186.68,"text":"有部分其實有上網放在上面"},{"start":10186.68,"end":10188.68,"text":"放在這個環境部的網站"},{"start":10188.68,"end":10190.68,"text":"但是其實"},{"start":10190.68,"end":10192.68,"text":"並沒有一個典型的"},{"start":10192.68,"end":10194.68,"text":"範例每一個企業他們公開的"},{"start":10194.68,"end":10196.68,"text":"資訊其實都很不一樣所以我們希望"},{"start":10196.68,"end":10198.68,"text":"環境部應該跟民間團體或者"},{"start":10198.68,"end":10200.68,"text":"去討論說到底有一個最佳"},{"start":10200.68,"end":10202.68,"text":"範例去公佈"},{"start":10202.68,"end":10204.68,"text":"另外一個部分是關於減量執行報告"},{"start":10204.68,"end":10206.68,"text":"現在我們並沒有"},{"start":10206.68,"end":10208.68,"text":"看盤看到每年度"},{"start":10208.68,"end":10210.68,"text":"他們執行的計畫成果"},{"start":10210.68,"end":10212.68,"text":"所以應該環境部應該要"},{"start":10212.68,"end":10214.68,"text":"公開這個減量執行報告"},{"start":10214.68,"end":10216.68,"text":"讓全民去做檢讀"},{"start":10216.68,"end":10218.68,"text":"以上謝謝"},{"start":10219.01,"end":10221.01,"text":"好謝謝我們的林彥廷研究員"},{"start":10221.01,"end":10223.01,"text":"接下來我們邀請"},{"start":10223.01,"end":10225.01,"text":"中央研究院經濟研究所"},{"start":10225.01,"end":10227.01,"text":"蕭代基研究員"},{"start":10238.46,"end":10240.46,"text":"主席各位大家好"},{"start":10240.46,"end":10242.46,"text":"那我"},{"start":10243.56,"end":10249.56,"text":"現在已經退休不過我在這裡發言主要是跟潘漢森一樣我們是代表碳稅聯盟"},{"start":10249.56,"end":10251.56,"text":"在這裡來發言"},{"start":10255.02,"end":10257.02,"text":"好我們的主題是"},{"start":10257.02,"end":10259.02,"text":"碳定價策略"},{"start":10259.02,"end":10261.02,"text":"這個策略主要是為了要邁向"},{"start":10261.02,"end":10263.02,"text":"2050的近年"},{"start":10263.02,"end":10265.02,"text":"排放的這個目標這是寫在我們"},{"start":10265.02,"end":10267.02,"text":"今天的會議的"},{"start":10267.02,"end":10269.02,"text":"通知裡頭"},{"start":10269.02,"end":10271.02,"text":"在這裡有三個討論的"},{"start":10271.02,"end":10273.02,"text":"提綱那我整體來講就是"},{"start":10273.02,"end":10275.02,"text":"剛剛講的就是為了達成"},{"start":10275.02,"end":10277.02,"text":"2050近年目標的碳定價"},{"start":10277.02,"end":10279.02,"text":"制度當然要達成這個目標"},{"start":10279.02,"end":10281.02,"text":"當然靠碳定價制度是不夠的"},{"start":10281.02,"end":10283.02,"text":"還需要很多"},{"start":10283.02,"end":10285.02,"text":"各種的制度"},{"start":10285.02,"end":10287.02,"text":"不過在這裡首先我要提一下"},{"start":10287.02,"end":10289.02,"text":"就是剛剛"},{"start":10289.02,"end":10291.02,"text":"Echo這個魏老師講到的"},{"start":10291.02,"end":10293.02,"text":"這是一個氣候的危機"},{"start":10293.02,"end":10295.02,"text":"是不可逆的很快就已經到了"},{"start":10295.02,"end":10297.02,"text":"一個不可逆的一種極端的這種"},{"start":10297.02,"end":10299.02,"text":"風險了所以"},{"start":10299.02,"end":10301.02,"text":"聯合國的IPCC的報告"},{"start":10301.02,"end":10303.02,"text":"就告訴我們說我們必須要在2050"},{"start":10303.02,"end":10305.02,"text":"做到全球的這個"},{"start":10305.02,"end":10307.02,"text":"淨排放量"},{"start":10307.02,"end":10309.02,"text":"溫室氣體的淨排放量等於零可是下面"},{"start":10309.02,"end":10311.02,"text":"一句話要注意就是2050"},{"start":10311.02,"end":10313.02,"text":"年以後要做到淨負排放"},{"start":10313.96,"end":10315.96,"text":"要小於零淨排放量要小於零"},{"start":10315.96,"end":10317.96,"text":"那要做的事情更多"},{"start":10317.96,"end":10319.96,"text":"當然所以我們現在"},{"start":10319.96,"end":10321.96,"text":"就必須要把那個工作"},{"start":10321.96,"end":10323.96,"text":"那更困難的工作在現在"},{"start":10323.96,"end":10325.96,"text":"的碳定價制度的設計裡面"},{"start":10325.96,"end":10327.96,"text":"就要考慮進去"},{"start":10327.8,"end":10329.8,"text":"這是我今天最重要的一個"},{"start":10329.8,"end":10331.8,"text":"一點"},{"start":10331.8,"end":10333.8,"text":"那這是IPCC這個2018年"},{"start":10333.8,"end":10335.8,"text":"這個報告我們看最右邊的"},{"start":10335.8,"end":10337.8,"text":"的這個圖形就可以看出來"},{"start":10337.8,"end":10339.8,"text":"在2050年"},{"start":10339.8,"end":10341.8,"text":"這條中間這條綠線"},{"start":10341.8,"end":10343.8,"text":"那就是淨排放量的線"},{"start":10343.8,"end":10345.8,"text":"他要在2050年要等於零"},{"start":10345.8,"end":10347.8,"text":"2050年以後要小於零"},{"start":10347.8,"end":10349.8,"text":"要做到小於零那我們必須"},{"start":10349.8,"end":10351.8,"text":"要做到這個"},{"start":10351.8,"end":10353.8,"text":"能夠一直下降的這個淨排放量"},{"start":10353.8,"end":10355.8,"text":"要做兩件事情第一件事情"},{"start":10355.8,"end":10357.8,"text":"是減少溫室氣體的排放"},{"start":10357.8,"end":10359.8,"text":"第二件事情要把大氣中"},{"start":10359.8,"end":10361.8,"text":"已經累積的溫室氣體"},{"start":10361.8,"end":10363.8,"text":"要把它移除"},{"start":10363.8,"end":10365.8,"text":"那移除的部分就是這個圖形的"},{"start":10365.8,"end":10367.8,"text":"這個右邊這個圖形的那個"},{"start":10367.8,"end":10369.8,"text":"黃色小於零的這個部分"},{"start":10370.73,"end":10372.73,"text":"所以這工作量是在未來越來越大"},{"start":10373.95,"end":10375.95,"text":"越來越大"},{"start":10377.75,"end":10379.75,"text":"這個排放跟移除"},{"start":10379.75,"end":10381.75,"text":"這是兩件事情"},{"start":10381.75,"end":10383.75,"text":"那排放"},{"start":10383.75,"end":10385.75,"text":"我們減碳"},{"start":10385.75,"end":10387.75,"text":"我們叫做減碳"},{"start":10387.75,"end":10389.75,"text":"那減碳是"},{"start":10389.75,"end":10391.75,"text":"是因為你排放會造成"},{"start":10391.75,"end":10393.75,"text":"外部成本是一個外部性"},{"start":10393.75,"end":10395.75,"text":"是造成了很多的這個汙染"},{"start":10395.75,"end":10397.75,"text":"所以你必須要付費"},{"start":10397.75,"end":10399.75,"text":"所以我們有碳費"},{"start":10399.75,"end":10401.75,"text":"碳稅那就是要讓"},{"start":10401.75,"end":10403.75,"text":"汙染者付費"},{"start":10403.75,"end":10405.75,"text":"那可是呢除碳是要大氣中的"},{"start":10405.75,"end":10407.75,"text":"那溫室氣體累積在那裡很久的"},{"start":10407.75,"end":10409.75,"text":"要把它移除"},{"start":10409.75,"end":10411.75,"text":"那這個是產生一個外部效益"},{"start":10412.11,"end":10414.11,"text":"產生一個效益你不能夠說"},{"start":10414.11,"end":10416.11,"text":"要每一個人都去做"},{"start":10416.11,"end":10418.11,"text":"那怎麼去辦呢那政府就要用錢"},{"start":10418.11,"end":10420.11,"text":"去補助去"},{"start":10420.11,"end":10422.11,"text":"去購買這個"},{"start":10422.11,"end":10424.11,"text":"碳移除的這個"},{"start":10424.11,"end":10426.11,"text":"這個成本"},{"start":10426.11,"end":10428.11,"text":"所以說這是兩件事情"},{"start":10428.11,"end":10430.11,"text":"所以"},{"start":10429.52,"end":10431.52,"text":"回到這圖形來看就是前面"},{"start":10431.52,"end":10433.52,"text":"這個在2050年"},{"start":10433.52,"end":10435.52,"text":"以前我們有很多的排放量"},{"start":10435.52,"end":10437.52,"text":"那這可以根據這個"},{"start":10437.52,"end":10439.52,"text":"作為稅積來作為"},{"start":10439.52,"end":10441.52,"text":"碳稅或碳費的徵收"},{"start":10441.52,"end":10443.52,"text":"可是呢2050年以後這個"},{"start":10443.52,"end":10445.52,"text":"部分就減少了可是呢要做的"},{"start":10445.52,"end":10447.52,"text":"這個政府要出錢去"},{"start":10447.52,"end":10449.52,"text":"做的這個碳移除的"},{"start":10449.52,"end":10451.52,"text":"工作呢就越來越多"},{"start":10451.52,"end":10453.52,"text":"那這錢那個地方的錢"},{"start":10453.52,"end":10455.52,"text":"我們現在必須要準備"},{"start":10455.33,"end":10457.33,"text":"這一點是最重要不能夠只考慮到現在"},{"start":10457.33,"end":10459.33,"text":"要考慮到2050年以後"},{"start":10459.33,"end":10461.33,"text":"的這個很困難"},{"start":10461.33,"end":10463.33,"text":"我們的子孫非常困難的這個情況"},{"start":10463.33,"end":10465.33,"text":"非常困難的這個情況"},{"start":10465.33,"end":10467.33,"text":"所以呢這個制度上呢就必須"},{"start":10467.33,"end":10469.33,"text":"要現在"},{"start":10469.33,"end":10471.33,"text":"碳稅碳費的這個"},{"start":10471.33,"end":10473.33,"text":"收入"},{"start":10472.98,"end":10474.98,"text":"不能夠說是那麼低"},{"start":10474.98,"end":10476.98,"text":"而是真正的要能夠"},{"start":10476.98,"end":10478.98,"text":"讓我們未來的能夠去做"},{"start":10478.98,"end":10480.98,"text":"這個工作"},{"start":10481.13,"end":10483.13,"text":"碳移除了這個工作"},{"start":10483.13,"end":10485.13,"text":"所以那這個"},{"start":10485.13,"end":10487.13,"text":"在減碳這部分我們要用"},{"start":10487.13,"end":10489.13,"text":"碳稅或是能源稅"},{"start":10489.13,"end":10491.13,"text":"可是我們現在是採取"},{"start":10491.13,"end":10493.13,"text":"碳費那我們碳費的"},{"start":10493.13,"end":10495.13,"text":"跟碳稅主要的一個不同在哪裡"},{"start":10495.13,"end":10497.13,"text":"我們碳稅現在採取的尤其是"},{"start":10497.13,"end":10499.13,"text":"現在經過現在的"},{"start":10499.13,"end":10501.13,"text":"設計以後變成的是一個下游"},{"start":10501.13,"end":10503.13,"text":"課稅下游課稅"},{"start":10503.13,"end":10505.13,"text":"就是對下游的"},{"start":10505.12,"end":10507.12,"text":"排放者課稅"},{"start":10507.12,"end":10509.12,"text":"而對上游本來最好的做法"},{"start":10509.12,"end":10511.12,"text":"是對上游就是"},{"start":10511.12,"end":10513.12,"text":"就是這個能源"},{"start":10513.75,"end":10515.75,"text":"化石能源的使用者最大是誰呢"},{"start":10515.75,"end":10517.75,"text":"台電"},{"start":10516.87,"end":10518.87,"text":"還有汽車"},{"start":10519.18,"end":10521.18,"text":"機車可是這個全部都免稅"},{"start":10522.5,"end":10524.5,"text":"現在全部都免碳費"},{"start":10525.83,"end":10527.83,"text":"全部都免碳費"},{"start":10527.83,"end":10529.83,"text":"那這是現在是這是我們"},{"start":10529.83,"end":10531.83,"text":"這個碳費制度最大的一個問題"},{"start":10531.83,"end":10533.83,"text":"最大的一個問題"},{"start":10534.6,"end":10536.6,"text":"好"},{"start":10536.6,"end":10538.6,"text":"這裡就寫在這個碳稅"},{"start":10538.6,"end":10540.6,"text":"變金印法第28條"},{"start":10540.6,"end":10542.6,"text":"裡面的第二項就講了這個事情"},{"start":10542.6,"end":10544.6,"text":"那我們的制度呢"},{"start":10544.6,"end":10546.6,"text":"這是我們的制度非常的複雜"},{"start":10546.6,"end":10548.6,"text":"那剛剛前面幾位都講的非常清楚"},{"start":10548.6,"end":10550.6,"text":"就變成了一個"},{"start":10550.6,"end":10552.6,"text":"以自主減量制度"},{"start":10553.25,"end":10555.25,"text":"以自主減量計劃為"},{"start":10555.8,"end":10557.8,"text":"核心的碳費制度"},{"start":10558.48,"end":10560.48,"text":"那自主減量計劃是變成了"},{"start":10560.48,"end":10562.48,"text":"是一個"},{"start":10562.48,"end":10564.48,"text":"行政管制的一個措施"},{"start":10564.48,"end":10566.48,"text":"已經不像是一個"},{"start":10566.48,"end":10568.48,"text":"經濟優運的一個措施了"},{"start":10568.48,"end":10570.48,"text":"而且這裡面還有"},{"start":10570.48,"end":10572.48,"text":"很多的這個調整的係數"},{"start":10572.48,"end"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因為這裡面"},{"start":10591.84,"end":10593.84,"text":"是高碳洩漏風險的"},{"start":10593.84,"end":10595.84,"text":"事業就是這種的產業"},{"start":10597.31,"end":10599.31,"text":"那所以呢我們建議"},{"start":10599.31,"end":10601.31,"text":"是應該要徵收碳稅"},{"start":10601.31,"end":10603.31,"text":"而不是碳費"},{"start":10603.31,"end":10605.31,"text":"那這裡面"},{"start":10605.31,"end":10607.31,"text":"還有就是這個"},{"start":10607.31,"end":10609.31,"text":"徵收的這個這個"},{"start":10609.31,"end":10611.31,"text":"這個基金的這個用途"},{"start":10611.31,"end":10613.31,"text":"這個剛剛大家都講過就不多說了"},{"start":10613.31,"end":10615.31,"text":"那這裡面我們主要是認為說"},{"start":10615.31,"end":10617.31,"text":"還是碳稅會比較好"},{"start":10617.31,"end":10619.31,"text":"為什麼呢 主要是因為他的這個"},{"start":10619.31,"end":10621.31,"text":"用途不用受到"},{"start":10621.31,"end":10623.31,"text":"這個"},{"start":10623.18,"end":10625.18,"text":"專款專用這個限制"},{"start":10625.18,"end":10627.18,"text":"不用做到這個"},{"start":10627.18,"end":10629.18,"text":"限制 那在這個限制之下"},{"start":10629.18,"end":10631.18,"text":"我們又一年收到"},{"start":10631.18,"end":10633.18,"text":"現在是說五十億"},{"start":10633.18,"end":10635.18,"text":"未來可能到一百億"},{"start":10635.18,"end":10637.18,"text":"那真的要去做減碳 根本就不夠"},{"start":10637.18,"end":10639.18,"text":"根本就不夠 不夠未來的"},{"start":10639.18,"end":10641.18,"text":"碳移除的工作"},{"start":10642.18,"end":10644.18,"text":"所以我們現在是應該要"},{"start":10644.18,"end":10646.18,"text":"改成這個"},{"start":10646.18,"end":10648.18,"text":"碳稅 然後其中呢"},{"start":10648.18,"end":10650.18,"text":"還必須要注意的就是我們必須要同時"},{"start":10650.18,"end":10652.18,"text":"執行綠色稅制改革"},{"start":10652.18,"end":10654.18,"text":"也就是說部分的這個"},{"start":10654.18,"end":10656.18,"text":"收入要拿來"},{"start":10656.18,"end":10658.18,"text":"補助或"},{"start":10658.18,"end":10660.18,"text":"還還給人民 尤其是還還給"},{"start":10660.18,"end":10662.18,"text":"低收入"},{"start":10662.18,"end":10664.18,"text":"或者是弱勢的這個這個群體"},{"start":10664.18,"end":10666.18,"text":"那另外一部分"},{"start":10666.18,"end":10668.18,"text":"就應該放在一個"},{"start":10668.18,"end":10670.18,"text":"碳移除的這個基金裡面"},{"start":10670.73,"end":10672.73,"text":"專門做未來的"},{"start":10672.73,"end":10674.73,"text":"碳移除的這個工作"},{"start":10674.73,"end":10676.73,"text":"只能夠做這個工作 因為不然的話"},{"start":10676.73,"end":10678.73,"text":"我們後代子孫會變成非常的辛苦"},{"start":10678.73,"end":10680.73,"text":"非常的困難"},{"start":10681.45,"end":10683.45,"text":"好 那另外最後一點是"},{"start":10683.45,"end":10685.45,"text":"CBM也必須要同時要修正"},{"start":10685.45,"end":10687.45,"text":"所以我們這個新"},{"start":10687.45,"end":10689.45,"text":"我們建議這個新修正的這個"},{"start":10689.45,"end":10691.45,"text":"一個弱勢"},{"start":10691.45,"end":10693.45,"text":"碳稅的一個辦法 一個條例的話呢"},{"start":10693.45,"end":10695.45,"text":"它應該要有碳稅"},{"start":10695.45,"end":10697.45,"text":"那應該要有剛剛講的"},{"start":10697.45,"end":10699.45,"text":"這個紅利的"},{"start":10699.45,"end":10701.45,"text":"碳紅利的這個制度"},{"start":10701.45,"end":10703.45,"text":"也就是說拿這部分的經費去補貼"},{"start":10703.45,"end":10705.45,"text":"補助這個"},{"start":10705.45,"end":10707.45,"text":"弱勢的這個團體"},{"start":10707.45,"end":10709.45,"text":"那另外一部分也要加上這個CBM"},{"start":10709.45,"end":10711.45,"text":"我們現在的"},{"start":10711.91,"end":10713.91,"text":"現在的 台灣的這個"},{"start":10713.91,"end":10715.91,"text":"我們現在的氣候變遷因法"},{"start":10715.91,"end":10717.91,"text":"第31條這個CBM是沒辦法執行的"},{"start":10717.91,"end":10719.91,"text":"因為它不符合WTO的規定"},{"start":10719.91,"end":10721.91,"text":"違背了WTO的這個貿易的規範"},{"start":10721.91,"end":10723.91,"text":"所以是不能執行"},{"start":10723.91,"end":10725.91,"text":"所以必須要整個來修"},{"start":10725.91,"end":10727.91,"text":"那修最好是跟"},{"start":10730.49,"end":10732.49,"text":"把它跟碳稅連結在一起"},{"start":10732.49,"end":10734.49,"text":"所以我們最後的這個"},{"start":10734.49,"end":10736.49,"text":"建議就是我們應該"},{"start":10736.49,"end":10738.49,"text":"要有一個積極的減碳和"},{"start":10738.49,"end":10740.49,"text":"除碳的這個政策"},{"start":10740.49,"end":10742.49,"text":"不是只有減碳 還有除碳"},{"start":10742.49,"end":10744.49,"text":"就是碳移除 所以我們要採取"},{"start":10744.49,"end":10746.49,"text":"這個碳稅 或是能源稅"},{"start":10746.49,"end":10748.49,"text":"然後呢"},{"start":10748.49,"end":10750.49,"text":"要這個稅 新的這個條例"},{"start":10750.49,"end":10752.49,"text":"叫做碳稅及碳紅利條例"},{"start":10752.49,"end":10754.49,"text":"其中有包括了CBM"},{"start":10754.49,"end":10756.49,"text":"在裡面"},{"start":10756.49,"end":10758.49,"text":"那所謂碳紅利 也就是說"},{"start":10758.49,"end":10760.49,"text":"碳稅收有一部分是用來"},{"start":10760.49,"end":10762.49,"text":"返還給低所得"},{"start":10762.49,"end":10764.49,"text":"或是低弱勢的團體"},{"start":10764.49,"end":10766.49,"text":"或是給全國的人民也可以"},{"start":10766.49,"end":10768.49,"text":"這樣子 這是我們"},{"start":10768.49,"end":10770.49,"text":"最後的這個意見"},{"start":10770.49,"end":10772.49,"text":"那另外在除碳的這部分"},{"start":10772.49,"end":10774.49,"text":"也就是要用這個除碳的這個"},{"start":10774.49,"end":10776.49,"text":"基金 然後呢逐年"},{"start":10776.49,"end":10778.49,"text":"現在開始就用政府的"},{"start":10778.49,"end":10780.49,"text":"這個碳"},{"start":10780.49,"end":10782.49,"text":"這個基金的這個收入拿來"},{"start":10783.98,"end":10785.98,"text":"尤其是不能夠把本金用完"},{"start":10785.98,"end":10787.98,"text":"只能夠讓它逐漸的累積"},{"start":10787.98,"end":10789.98,"text":"讓我們未來的人"},{"start":10789.98,"end":10791.98,"text":"能夠有足夠的錢"},{"start":10791.98,"end":10793.98,"text":"那現在就開始用來"},{"start":10793.98,"end":10795.98,"text":"來徵收 來購買"},{"start":10795.98,"end":10797.98,"text":"這個除碳的這個服務"},{"start":10797.98,"end":10799.98,"text":"這是我們的建議"},{"start":10799.98,"end":10801.98,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10801.11,"end":10803.11,"text":"好 謝謝我們的小研究員"},{"start":10803.11,"end":10805.11,"text":"接下來我們邀請"},{"start":10805.11,"end":10809.11,"text":"碳稅聯盟共同發起人的潘漢生先生"},{"start":10819.64,"end":10821.64,"text":"主席 各位"},{"start":10821.99,"end":10823.99,"text":"與會的朋友 我這邊"},{"start":10823.99,"end":10825.99,"text":"是代表碳稅聯盟來"},{"start":10825.99,"end":10827.99,"text":"做一個發言"},{"start":10827.99,"end":10829.99,"text":"那剛剛蕭代基老師有把碳稅跟"},{"start":10829.99,"end":10831.99,"text":"碳費的比較 有跟大家"},{"start":10831.99,"end":10833.99,"text":"做一個很清楚的說明"},{"start":10833.99,"end":10835.99,"text":"那我這邊再做一些補充"},{"start":10835.99,"end":10837.99,"text":"那第一個 第一點是"},{"start":10837.99,"end":10839.99,"text":"按照提綱 今天討論提綱"},{"start":10839.99,"end":10841.99,"text":"第一點是我們認為應該要加速"},{"start":10841.99,"end":10843.99,"text":"碳稅跟碳紅利返還的這個制度"},{"start":10843.99,"end":10845.99,"text":"來促進整個社會的改革"},{"start":10845.99,"end":10847.99,"text":"那特別是"},{"start":10847.99,"end":10849.99,"text":"我們看到今天"},{"start":10849.99,"end":10851.99,"text":"公聽會的這個主軸"},{"start":10851.99,"end":10853.99,"text":"大家可以看到所有學者專家"},{"start":10853.99,"end":10855.99,"text":"有一個非常高的共識"},{"start":10855.99,"end":10857.99,"text":"就是現在碳稅的制度"},{"start":10857.99,"end":10859.99,"text":"已經變成"},{"start":10859.99,"end":10861.99,"text":"的實際執行 已經變成是高度的"},{"start":10861.99,"end":10863.99,"text":"政府監管"},{"start":10864.27,"end":10866.27,"text":"那這個"},{"start":10866.27,"end":10868.27,"text":"這個"},{"start":10868.27,"end":10870.27,"text":"這個"},{"start":10870.27,"end":10872.27,"text":"這個"},{"start":10872.27,"end":10874.27,"text":"這個"},{"start":10874.27,"end":10876.27,"text":"這個"},{"start":10876.27,"end":10878.27,"text":"這個"},{"start":10878.27,"end":10880.27,"text":"這個"},{"start":10880.27,"end":10882.27,"text":"這個"},{"start":10882.27,"end":10884.27,"text":"這個"},{"start":10884.27,"end":10886.27,"text":"這個"},{"start":10886.27,"end":10888.27,"text":"這個"},{"start":10888.27,"end":10890.27,"text":"這個"},{"start":10890.27,"end":10892.27,"text":"這個"},{"start":10892.27,"end":10894.27,"text":"目前都是 目前制度是免碳費的"},{"start":10894.27,"end":10896.27,"text":"所以這部分都沒有"},{"start":10896.27,"end":10898.27,"text":"都沒有這個"},{"start":10898.27,"end":10900.27,"text":"碳定價來"},{"start":10900.27,"end":10902.27,"text":"來讓這個"},{"start":10902.27,"end":10904.27,"text":"汙染可以有這個市場的機制能夠減排"},{"start":10904.27,"end":10906.27,"text":"那"},{"start":10906.6,"end":10908.6,"text":"剛剛有許多與會的專家"},{"start":10908.6,"end":10910.6,"text":"都提到說 還有委員"},{"start":10910.6,"end":10912.6,"text":"也提到說 社會輿論和民眾"},{"start":10912.6,"end":10914.6,"text":"對碳費沒有感覺"},{"start":10914.6,"end":10916.6,"text":"那 尤其是這個"},{"start":10916.6,"end":10918.6,"text":"這個公正轉型的課題"},{"start":10918.6,"end":10920.6,"text":"那如果是用碳稅"},{"start":10920.6,"end":10922.6,"text":"跟碳紅利返還的制度的話"},{"start":10922.6,"end":10924.6,"text":"那碳定價就會進到"},{"start":10924.6,"end":10926.6,"text":"日常生產跟消費的每個環節"},{"start":10926.6,"end":10928.6,"text":"那自然而然"},{"start":10928.6,"end":10930.6,"text":"大家就有感 就會促進"},{"start":10930.6,"end":10932.6,"text":"真正的一個社會的改革"},{"start":10932.6,"end":10934.6,"text":"那碳稅優於碳費的一個重大"},{"start":10934.6,"end":10936.6,"text":"所以這個關鍵其實是在於"},{"start":10936.6,"end":10938.6,"text":"剛剛有學者提到就是"},{"start":10938.6,"end":10940.6,"text":"碳費它是專款專用"},{"start":10940.6,"end":10942.6,"text":"而碳稅是統收統支"},{"start":10942.6,"end":10944.6,"text":"那所以 專款專用的碳費"},{"start":10944.6,"end":10946.6,"text":"目前就等於是政府來決定"},{"start":10946.6,"end":10948.6,"text":"哪些同"},{"start":10948.6,"end":10950.6,"text":"哪些行為才是減碳"},{"start":10950.6,"end":10952.6,"text":"才是要得到鼓勵的"},{"start":10952.6,"end":10954.6,"text":"那我們以室內降溫"},{"start":10954.6,"end":10956.6,"text":"來做一個例子來講"},{"start":10956.6,"end":10958.6,"text":"現在是冷氣有補助"},{"start":10959.23,"end":10961.23,"text":"那你如果自己裝窗簾"},{"start":10961.23,"end":10963.23,"text":"自己做"},{"start":10962.37,"end":10964.37,"text":"外遮陽 做一些軟性的植栽"},{"start":10964.37,"end":10966.37,"text":"來降溫"},{"start":10966.37,"end":10968.37,"text":"或是雙層玻璃"},{"start":10968.37,"end":10970.37,"text":"或窗簾 或是提高效率的"},{"start":10970.37,"end":10972.37,"text":"一些外加測試"},{"start":10972.37,"end":10974.37,"text":"或是搭配電風扇"},{"start":10974.74,"end":10976.74,"text":"我們不可能窮盡每一項都去"},{"start":10976.74,"end":10978.74,"text":"來認定說這個"},{"start":10978.74,"end":10980.74,"text":"我們碳費要補助"},{"start":10980.74,"end":10982.74,"text":"所以這個行政成本會高到不可"},{"start":10982.74,"end":10984.74,"text":"不可去想"},{"start":10984.74,"end":10986.74,"text":"所以如果我們是從"},{"start":10986.74,"end":10988.74,"text":"源頭來做碳紅利的"},{"start":10988.74,"end":10990.74,"text":"返還的話 其實它就會"},{"start":10990.74,"end":10992.74,"text":"很明顯的去高過於"},{"start":10992.74,"end":10994.74,"text":"綠色通膨對民眾"},{"start":10994.74,"end":10996.74,"text":"所造成的負擔"},{"start":10996.74,"end":10998.74,"text":"那這個蕭黛琪老師"},{"start":10998.74,"end":11000.74,"text":"也跟她的團隊也做過這個"},{"start":11000.74,"end":11002.74,"text":"經濟模型的"},{"start":11002.74,"end":11004.74,"text":"運算"},{"start":11004.74,"end":11006.74,"text":"所以這是"},{"start":11006.74,"end":11008.74,"text":"如果碳稅加上碳紅利的"},{"start":11008.74,"end":11010.74,"text":"返還 這個制度去"},{"start":11010.74,"end":11012.74,"text":"執行的話 其實民眾就會直接"},{"start":11012.74,"end":11014.74,"text":"有感 民眾也可以"},{"start":11014.74,"end":11016.74,"text":"自己來決定 我要怎麼樣"},{"start":11016.74,"end":11018.74,"text":"來做減碳 怎麼樣來做降溫"},{"start":11018.74,"end":11020.74,"text":"這就是把"},{"start":11020.74,"end":11022.74,"text":"減碳的"},{"start":11022.74,"end":11024.74,"text":"誰認定什麼東西可以"},{"start":11024.74,"end":11026.74,"text":"減碳 從政府的手上移到"},{"start":11026.74,"end":11028.74,"text":"哪個人民的手上"},{"start":11028.74,"end":11030.74,"text":"那推動碳稅"},{"start":11030.74,"end":11032.74,"text":"在立法院其實"},{"start":11033.13,"end":11035.13,"text":"這20 30年來"},{"start":11035.13,"end":11037.13,"text":"最大的阻力就是財政部"},{"start":11037.13,"end":11039.13,"text":"因為這是他主管的 可是他不願意"},{"start":11039.13,"end":11041.13,"text":"那雖然在早年"},{"start":11042.1,"end":11044.1,"text":"行政院曾經有"},{"start":11044.43,"end":11046.43,"text":"稅制改革的會議"},{"start":11046.43,"end":11048.43,"text":"也明確的說"},{"start":11048.43,"end":11050.43,"text":"要做能源稅"},{"start":11050.32,"end":11052.32,"text":"但是很快就夭折了"},{"start":11052.32,"end":11054.32,"text":"那財政部就一直抵抗到現在"},{"start":11054.32,"end":11056.32,"text":"甚至連氣候變遷因應法"},{"start":11056.32,"end":11058.32,"text":"我們都知道第八條"},{"start":11058.32,"end":11060.32,"text":"有規定各部會的權責"},{"start":11060.32,"end":11062.32,"text":"而當時在"},{"start":11062.91,"end":11064.91,"text":"立法的過程裡面 財政部就一直逃避"},{"start":11064.91,"end":11066.91,"text":"所以我呼籲"},{"start":11066.91,"end":11068.91,"text":"立法院"},{"start":11068.91,"end":11070.91,"text":"在未來如果有修法的時候"},{"start":11070.91,"end":11072.91,"text":"一定要把財政部抓回來"},{"start":11072.91,"end":11074.91,"text":"一定要把這一點加進去"},{"start":11074.91,"end":11076.91,"text":"因為在早年的氣候變遷"},{"start":11076.91,"end":11078.91,"text":"不是"},{"start":11078.91,"end":11080.91,"text":"這個氣候變遷法的前身"},{"start":11080.91,"end":11082.91,"text":"溫室氣體減量級管理法的時候"},{"start":11082.91,"end":11084.91,"text":"就有講"},{"start":11084.91,"end":11086.91,"text":"綠色稅制改革 但是到了"},{"start":11086.91,"end":11088.91,"text":"氣候變遷因應法"},{"start":11088.34,"end":11090.34,"text":"財政部卻逃掉了"},{"start":11090.34,"end":11092.34,"text":"這是最大的困難"},{"start":11092.34,"end":11094.34,"text":"所以環境部只能一直"},{"start":11094.34,"end":11096.34,"text":"想說我怎麼樣在我的權責範圍內"},{"start":11096.34,"end":11098.34,"text":"做碳費"},{"start":11098.34,"end":11100.34,"text":"然後變成下一個扭曲的制度"},{"start":11100.34,"end":11102.34,"text":"然後環境部長"},{"start":11102.34,"end":11104.34,"text":"又想說我現在要來做碳交易"},{"start":11105.1,"end":11107.1,"text":"可是最重要的碳稅財政部卻逃掉了"},{"start":11109.65,"end":11111.65,"text":"我們認為說財政部現在"},{"start":11111.65,"end":11113.65,"text":"在立法過程之中"},{"start":11113.65,"end":11115.65,"text":"他有宣示要調高"},{"start":11115.65,"end":11117.65,"text":"逐步調高費率接軌國際"},{"start":11117.65,"end":11119.65,"text":"那今天的學者專家又有這樣的共識"},{"start":11119.65,"end":11121.65,"text":"所以我們希望立法院"},{"start":11121.65,"end":11123.65,"text":"跟"},{"start":11123.46,"end":11125.46,"text":"經濟部未來要支持這種產業的綠色轉型"},{"start":11125.46,"end":11127.46,"text":"不要成為主力"},{"start":11130.17,"end":11132.17,"text":"現在對於高"},{"start":11131.96,"end":11133.96,"text":"碳洩漏風險的這些"},{"start":11133.96,"end":11135.96,"text":"高碳牌的企業"},{"start":11135.96,"end":11137.96,"text":"給他那麼多優惠的費率"},{"start":11137.96,"end":11139.96,"text":"其實不如就是"},{"start":11139.96,"end":11141.96,"text":"直接趕快依法"},{"start":11141.96,"end":11143.96,"text":"來實施台灣版的西本"},{"start":11143.96,"end":11145.96,"text":"台灣的碳關稅"},{"start":11145.96,"end":11147.96,"text":"那關於企業的自主減量"},{"start":11147.96,"end":11149.96,"text":"他的優惠費率"},{"start":11149.96,"end":11151.96,"text":"他其實牽涉到公共的錢"},{"start":11151.96,"end":11153.96,"text":"那所以執行"},{"start":11153.97,"end":11155.97,"text":"減量的執行報告當然要做到完全的公開"},{"start":11155.97,"end":11157.97,"text":"才能夠剋折"},{"start":11157.97,"end":11159.97,"text":"如果企業他一定會講說"},{"start":11159.97,"end":11161.97,"text":"這個有商業機密等等的"},{"start":11161.97,"end":11163.97,"text":"拒絕公開"},{"start":11163.97,"end":11165.97,"text":"那你就不要參加這個減量計畫"},{"start":11165.97,"end":11167.97,"text":"因為你如果你是有商業機密"},{"start":11167.97,"end":11169.97,"text":"而減量那你本來就會達到"},{"start":11169.97,"end":11171.97,"text":"少少繳碳費的好處"},{"start":11171.97,"end":11173.97,"text":"好那關於今天"},{"start":11173.97,"end":11175.97,"text":"這個第三點的提綱"},{"start":11175.97,"end":11177.97,"text":"碳費的用途"},{"start":11177.97,"end":11179.97,"text":"我們認為不應該去補助企業"},{"start":11179.97,"end":11181.97,"text":"而應該回到脆弱民眾跟"},{"start":11181.97,"end":11183.97,"text":"受衝擊的地區"},{"start":11183.97,"end":11185.97,"text":"我在簡短把這部分把它說完了"},{"start":11185.97,"end":11187.97,"text":"就是說"},{"start":11188.09,"end":11190.09,"text":"啊"},{"start":11189.34,"end":11191.34,"text":"剛剛有提到"},{"start":11191.34,"end":11193.34,"text":"碳費要不要補助健保費"},{"start":11193.34,"end":11195.34,"text":"那其實健保費"},{"start":11194.53,"end":11196.53,"text":"有一個很大的黑洞就是分級醫療沒有做"},{"start":11198.1,"end":11200.1,"text":"那還有包括許許多多黑洞非常大"},{"start":11200.1,"end":11202.1,"text":"那碳費的補貼"},{"start":11202.1,"end":11204.1,"text":"要把它移去做這個健保費"},{"start":11204.1,"end":11206.1,"text":"也補不了這個黑洞"},{"start":11206.1,"end":11208.1,"text":"包括未來的碳稅要去補這個黑洞"},{"start":11208.1,"end":11210.1,"text":"都補不完"},{"start":11210.1,"end":11212.1,"text":"一定要健保自己要先做改革"},{"start":11212.1,"end":11214.1,"text":"再來做這一件事情"},{"start":11214.1,"end":11216.1,"text":"那我們可以做的小的方案就是"},{"start":11216.1,"end":11218.1,"text":"譬如說我們知道剛剛"},{"start":11218.1,"end":11220.1,"text":"健康這個"},{"start":11220.1,"end":11222.1,"text":"空氣行動聯盟有提到說"},{"start":11222.1,"end":11224.1,"text":"空污跟健康"},{"start":11224.1,"end":11226.1,"text":"減碳是"},{"start":11226.1,"end":11228.1,"text":"有雙重的效益"},{"start":11228.1,"end":11230.1,"text":"那我們可以考慮說空污受害的"},{"start":11230.1,"end":11232.1,"text":"地區的民眾"},{"start":11232.1,"end":11234.1,"text":"可以來做肺癌"},{"start":11234.1,"end":11236.1,"text":"的篩檢"},{"start":11236.1,"end":11238.1,"text":"讓他們能夠早期發現早期治療"},{"start":11238.1,"end":11240.1,"text":"來降低因為空污所造成的"},{"start":11240.1,"end":11242.1,"text":"健康不平等"},{"start":11242.1,"end":11244.1,"text":"那環境部跟衛福部目前有這個聯席會議"},{"start":11244.1,"end":11246.1,"text":"或許可以多設計一些這種方案"},{"start":11246.1,"end":11248.1,"text":"那氣候變遷的不公正"},{"start":11248.1,"end":11250.1,"text":"不是只有產業別的不公正"},{"start":11250.44,"end":11252.44,"text":"勞工跟自放的不公正"},{"start":11252.44,"end":11254.44,"text":"其實還包括地方"},{"start":11254.44,"end":11256.44,"text":"特別是"},{"start":11256.44,"end":11258.44,"text":"低排放的地方往往是受到很大"},{"start":11258.44,"end":11260.44,"text":"傷害的地方"},{"start":11260.44,"end":11262.44,"text":"特別是包括離島"},{"start":11262.44,"end":11264.44,"text":"山地地區還有海岸這些"},{"start":11264.44,"end":11266.44,"text":"脆弱的地方"},{"start":11266.44,"end":11268.44,"text":"受害的這個地方的調適"},{"start":11268.44,"end":11270.44,"text":"我們非常需要地方政府來執行"},{"start":11271.84,"end":11273.84,"text":"可是這些"},{"start":11273.84,"end":11275.84,"text":"大家知道說地方政府"},{"start":11275.84,"end":11277.84,"text":"越是這些"},{"start":11276.78,"end":11278.78,"text":"受到衝擊的這些弱勢的地方"},{"start":11278.78,"end":11280.78,"text":"他們的地方政府也非常的弱勢"},{"start":11282.18,"end":11284.18,"text":"那我就舉一個"},{"start":11284.18,"end":11286.18,"text":"我就舉我在澎湖的例子"},{"start":11286.18,"end":11288.18,"text":"我去參加那個"},{"start":11288.18,"end":11290.18,"text":"氣候變遷調適"},{"start":11290.18,"end":11292.18,"text":"減量與調適的這個計畫的"},{"start":11292.18,"end":11294.18,"text":"最後的這個成果報告的會議"},{"start":11294.18,"end":11296.18,"text":"然後民眾的意見"},{"start":11296.18,"end":11298.18,"text":"結果那個會議"},{"start":11301.22,"end":11305.22,"text":"澎湖縣政府只派了一個環保局的科長來主持"},{"start":11305.22,"end":11307.22,"text":"他也是一問三不知"},{"start":11307.22,"end":11309.22,"text":"什麼問題就請顧問公司來回答"},{"start":11309.22,"end":11311.22,"text":"所以這樣一個制度"},{"start":11311.22,"end":11313.22,"text":"到最後就變成沒有用"},{"start":11313.22,"end":11315.22,"text":"所以我們是不是可以"},{"start":11315.22,"end":11317.22,"text":"想辦法去"},{"start":11318.09,"end":11320.09,"text":"鼓勵這個地方政府的賠力"},{"start":11320.09,"end":11322.09,"text":"過去環境部也花了一些錢"},{"start":11322.09,"end":11324.09,"text":"去幫助地方政府能夠"},{"start":11324.09,"end":11326.09,"text":"有一些專門做氣候變遷的人"},{"start":11326.09,"end":11328.09,"text":"但是我們"},{"start":11328.09,"end":11330.09,"text":"台灣的人事制度公務員的制度"},{"start":11330.09,"end":11332.09,"text":"就讓這些人才留不住"},{"start":11332.64,"end":11334.64,"text":"好那是不是我們換一個方式"},{"start":11335.58,"end":11337.58,"text":"這個費用是不是"},{"start":11337.58,"end":11339.58,"text":"這個補助的費用是不是可以來"},{"start":11339.58,"end":11341.58,"text":"賠力整個地方的"},{"start":11341.58,"end":11343.58,"text":"民間社會的"},{"start":11343.58,"end":11345.58,"text":"這個"},{"start":11345.95,"end":11347.95,"text":"這個簡碳的還有調適的這個能力"},{"start":11347.95,"end":11349.95,"text":"避免說地方政府"},{"start":11349.95,"end":11351.95,"text":"他就扭曲了"},{"start":11351.95,"end":11353.95,"text":"這個調適的計劃"},{"start":11353.95,"end":11355.95,"text":"反而是用在一些水泥化的事情上面"},{"start":11355.95,"end":11357.95,"text":"那我們也可以去想說"},{"start":11357.95,"end":11359.95,"text":"是不是"},{"start":11359.95,"end":11361.95,"text":"是不是"},{"start":11363.47,"end":11365.47,"text":"我也是一樣舉這個例子"},{"start":11365.47,"end":11367.47,"text":"就澎湖的例子"},{"start":11367.47,"end":11369.47,"text":"澎湖他們我就說你們那個"},{"start":11369.47,"end":11371.47,"text":"調適計劃跟減量計劃"},{"start":11371.47,"end":11373.47,"text":"你們的利害關係人的意見"},{"start":11374.17,"end":11376.17,"text":"你們的做法是"},{"start":11376.17,"end":11378.17,"text":"只有去問地方的公務人員"},{"start":11379.54,"end":11381.54,"text":"那為什麼沒有包括民間的"},{"start":11381.54,"end":11383.54,"text":"一些意見也不一定說一定要"},{"start":11383.54,"end":11385.54,"text":"問環保團體你也可以問"},{"start":11385.54,"end":11387.54,"text":"里長問社區發展協會"},{"start":11387.54,"end":11389.54,"text":"就顧問公司回答說他們"},{"start":11389.54,"end":11391.54,"text":"是按照環境部的"},{"start":11391.54,"end":11393.54,"text":"這個寫計劃的指引來做的"},{"start":11393.54,"end":11395.54,"text":"那所以是不是我們"},{"start":11395.54,"end":11397.54,"text":"在做這些因為"},{"start":11397.54,"end":11399.54,"text":"氣候變遷因應法而制定了一些"},{"start":11399.54,"end":11401.54,"text":"概念很好理念"},{"start":11401.54,"end":11403.54,"text":"很好的一個"},{"start":11403.54,"end":11405.54,"text":"方向到了地方"},{"start":11405.54,"end":11407.54,"text":"去執行的時候有很多"},{"start":11407.54,"end":11409.54,"text":"都會歪掉我們是不是"},{"start":11409.54,"end":11411.54,"text":"可以再想辦法把它拉回來"},{"start":11411.54,"end":11413.54,"text":"那所以這個部分"},{"start":11413.54,"end":11415.54,"text":"當然不是只有靠環境部"},{"start":11415.54,"end":11417.54,"text":"那我們"},{"start":11417.54,"end":11419.54,"text":"可以大家一起來設計"},{"start":11419.54,"end":11421.54,"text":"來想說怎麼樣讓地方政府"},{"start":11421.54,"end":11423.54,"text":"能夠有真正的"},{"start":11423.54,"end":11425.54,"text":"認識氣候變遷的重要性"},{"start":11427.44,"end":11429.44,"text":"看稅真的是最好的方法"},{"start":11429.44,"end":11431.44,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":11431.27,"end":11433.27,"text":"好謝謝我們的判案生發起人"},{"start":11433.27,"end":11435.27,"text":"接下來"},{"start":11435.27,"end":11437.27,"text":"要請媽媽氣候行動"},{"start":11437.27,"end":11439.27,"text":"聯盟協會黃平海"},{"start":11439.27,"end":11441.27,"text":"秘書長"},{"start":11445.8,"end":11447.8,"text":"謝謝主席謝謝市長"},{"start":11447.8,"end":11449.8,"text":"今天有出席的行政機關"},{"start":11449.8,"end":11451.8,"text":"的各位同仁還有我們專家學者"},{"start":11451.8,"end":11453.8,"text":"跟夥伴大家午安"},{"start":11453.8,"end":11455.8,"text":"今天討論的提綱剛才前面"},{"start":11455.8,"end":11457.8,"text":"兩個提綱其實有許多專家學者"},{"start":11457.8,"end":11459.8,"text":"都已經提出非常寶貴"},{"start":11459.8,"end":11461.8,"text":"的經驗"},{"start":11461.8,"end":11463.8,"text":"我本人也是在過去"},{"start":11463.8,"end":11465.8,"text":"的這十幾年然後"},{"start":11465.8,"end":11467.8,"text":"也一直看著各位前輩"},{"start":11467.8,"end":11469.8,"text":"提出來各種各樣的討論"},{"start":11469.8,"end":11471.8,"text":"今天我其實"},{"start":11471.8,"end":11473.8,"text":"想要跟大家交流"},{"start":11473.8,"end":11475.8,"text":"也跟行政機關有一些建議的"},{"start":11475.8,"end":11477.8,"text":"是提綱三的部分"},{"start":11477.8,"end":11479.8,"text":"我們的這個碳費跟"},{"start":11479.8,"end":11481.8,"text":"溫室氣體管理基金的運用"},{"start":11481.8,"end":11483.8,"text":"過去中央主管"},{"start":11483.8,"end":11485.8,"text":"機關其實已經經過從2015年"},{"start":11485.8,"end":11487.8,"text":"當時問婚法通過之後"},{"start":11487.8,"end":11489.8,"text":"就成立了這個基金"},{"start":11489.8,"end":11491.8,"text":"前面十年當然都從空污基金"},{"start":11491.8,"end":11493.8,"text":"來提撥現在我們"},{"start":11493.8,"end":11495.8,"text":"在15年有了第一筆"},{"start":11495.8,"end":11497.8,"text":"碳費的收入空污基金也"},{"start":11497.8,"end":11499.8,"text":"沒有再易主了接下來"},{"start":11499.8,"end":11501.8,"text":"到底過往這個中央主管"},{"start":11501.8,"end":11503.8,"text":"機關的經驗該怎麼做點翻轉移"},{"start":11503.8,"end":11505.8,"text":"讓我們的錢真正用在我們"},{"start":11505.8,"end":11507.8,"text":"認為重要的地方"},{"start":11507.8,"end":11509.8,"text":"再來就是2024年這個"},{"start":11509.8,"end":11511.8,"text":"才華法通過之後"},{"start":11511.8,"end":11513.8,"text":"其實中央跟地方"},{"start":11513.8,"end":11515.8,"text":"在很多政策"},{"start":11515.8,"end":11517.8,"text":"面向議題面向的治理應該"},{"start":11517.8,"end":11519.8,"text":"也要重新去思考它的分工"},{"start":11519.8,"end":11521.8,"text":"在氣候變遷治理尤其如此"},{"start":11521.8,"end":11523.8,"text":"下一頁謝謝"},{"start":11524.37,"end":11526.37,"text":"好"},{"start":11526.82,"end":11528.82,"text":"好那其實我們看到的事情是"},{"start":11528.82,"end":11530.82,"text":"我們發現"},{"start":11530.82,"end":11532.82,"text":"我們的政府的財政的結構"},{"start":11532.82,"end":11534.82,"text":"已經改變了但是我們能力"},{"start":11534.82,"end":11536.82,"text":"的結構並沒有跟上"},{"start":11536.82,"end":11538.82,"text":"所以才華法修正之後呢"},{"start":11538.82,"end":11540.82,"text":"其實就這個8841億"},{"start":11540.82,"end":11542.82,"text":"元的這個統籌款"},{"start":11542.82,"end":11544.82,"text":"地方政府他更有能力去決定"},{"start":11544.82,"end":11546.82,"text":"他要做什麼的同時"},{"start":11546.82,"end":11548.82,"text":"115年碳費實際"},{"start":11548.82,"end":11550.82,"text":"收入這個"},{"start":11550.82,"end":11552.82,"text":"可以收到49.7億"},{"start":11552.82,"end":11554.82,"text":"那116年預計也可以"},{"start":11554.82,"end":11556.82,"text":"收到50億元所以中央主管機關"},{"start":11556.82,"end":11558.82,"text":"呢有了這些資源"},{"start":11558.82,"end":11560.82,"text":"再加上過去這十幾年的"},{"start":11560.82,"end":11562.82,"text":"經驗應該更有能力"},{"start":11562.82,"end":11564.82,"text":"讓我們的國家可以知道在"},{"start":11564.82,"end":11566.82,"text":"氣候變遷治理上應該要怎麼樣"},{"start":11566.82,"end":11568.82,"text":"做好所以在現在這個情況"},{"start":11568.82,"end":11570.82,"text":"下我們可以來想"},{"start":11570.82,"end":11572.82,"text":"像氣候變遷治理接下來的"},{"start":11572.82,"end":11574.82,"text":"結果非常有可能"},{"start":11574.82,"end":11576.82,"text":"22個縣市政府他"},{"start":11576.82,"end":11578.82,"text":"需要在他自己的氣候變遷"},{"start":11578.82,"end":11580.82,"text":"的推動會裡面去執行"},{"start":11580.82,"end":11582.82,"text":"他的檢探跟調試的方案"},{"start":11582.82,"end":11584.82,"text":"的這個時候他過往的能力"},{"start":11584.82,"end":11586.82,"text":"並沒有建構好讓他"},{"start":11586.82,"end":11588.82,"text":"可以做這件事情"},{"start":11588.82,"end":11590.82,"text":"而中央主管機關也因為才華法"},{"start":11590.82,"end":11592.82,"text":"之後有非常多這個計劃"},{"start":11592.82,"end":11594.82,"text":"型的資金其實已經"},{"start":11594.82,"end":11596.82,"text":"也沒有再進到地方政府了"},{"start":11596.82,"end":11598.82,"text":"那會不會發生22個縣市"},{"start":11598.82,"end":11600.82,"text":"他重複在做了"},{"start":11600.82,"end":11602.82,"text":"很多其實過往中央主管"},{"start":11602.82,"end":11604.82,"text":"機關已經做過的事情因為"},{"start":11604.82,"end":11606.82,"text":"這個過往的所有的研究他"},{"start":11606.82,"end":11608.82,"text":"並沒有一個很明確的"},{"start":11608.82,"end":11610.82,"text":"轉移的過程然後"},{"start":11610.82,"end":11612.82,"text":"讓地方政府可以很明確知道"},{"start":11612.82,"end":11614.82,"text":"他該怎麼運用過往"},{"start":11614.82,"end":11616.82,"text":"這個儲管基金"},{"start":11616.82,"end":11618.82,"text":"每年3億4億5億元"},{"start":11618.82,"end":11620.82,"text":"其實也不是一筆小數目"},{"start":11620.82,"end":11622.82,"text":"投注下去想要去累積"},{"start":11622.82,"end":11624.82,"text":"台灣在氣候變遷治理的這些量能"},{"start":11624.82,"end":11626.82,"text":"所以我們其實有看到"},{"start":11626.82,"end":11628.82,"text":"在地方政府他在這個"},{"start":11628.82,"end":11630.82,"text":"碳費分配裡面實際上"},{"start":11630.82,"end":11632.82,"text":"就是"},{"start":11632.82,"end":11634.82,"text":"有很明確的說他是"},{"start":11634.82,"end":11636.82,"text":"給地方推動這些"},{"start":11636.82,"end":11638.82,"text":"氣候變遷的調試工作的"},{"start":11638.82,"end":11640.82,"text":"其實就1200萬"},{"start":11640.82,"end":11642.82,"text":"當然我們其實也有看到"},{"start":11642.82,"end":11644.82,"text":"這裡面有1.45億是要補助"},{"start":11644.82,"end":11646.82,"text":"地方政府辦理因應氣候變遷"},{"start":11646.82,"end":11648.82,"text":"的這些計畫"},{"start":11648.82,"end":11650.82,"text":"但其實第一級的財務能力"},{"start":11650.82,"end":11652.82,"text":"的地方政府上限就"},{"start":11652.82,"end":11654.82,"text":"280萬其他的就470"},{"start":11654.82,"end":11656.82,"text":"萬所以每一個地方政府分"},{"start":11656.82,"end":11658.82,"text":"下來他很有可能就是分"},{"start":11658.82,"end":11660.82,"text":"到470萬那再來他"},{"start":11660.82,"end":11662.82,"text":"在這個17.1億"},{"start":11662.82,"end":11664.82,"text":"元裡面他是跟企業"},{"start":11664.82,"end":11666.82,"text":"要共同去競爭"},{"start":11666.82,"end":11668.82,"text":"這17億元的資金"},{"start":11668.82,"end":11670.82,"text":"那這件事情其實在溫管"},{"start":11670.82,"end":11672.82,"text":"基金委員會已經有委員"},{"start":11672.82,"end":11674.82,"text":"也有提出來所以這個"},{"start":11674.82,"end":11676.82,"text":"意思是說過往我們在"},{"start":11676.82,"end":11678.82,"text":"溫管基金的執行其實"},{"start":11678.82,"end":11680.82,"text":"我們如果看113年跟114年"},{"start":11680.82,"end":11682.82,"text":"整體的執行率是"},{"start":11682.82,"end":11684.82,"text":"67.7%跟72.32%"},{"start":11684.82,"end":11686.82,"text":"的意思是說我們在"},{"start":11686.82,"end":11688.82,"text":"碳費還沒有進帳之前"},{"start":11688.82,"end":11690.82,"text":"溫管基金的執行率就沒有到"},{"start":11690.82,"end":11692.82,"text":"八成碳費進帳之後"},{"start":11692.82,"end":11694.82,"text":"有更多的錢到底要怎麼"},{"start":11694.82,"end":11696.82,"text":"去檢視這些預算的執行率"},{"start":11696.82,"end":11698.82,"text":"跟他實際達成的成效"},{"start":11698.82,"end":11700.82,"text":"在我們的氣候變遷治理上面"},{"start":11700.82,"end":11702.82,"text":"有什麼樣實質的進展"},{"start":11702.82,"end":11704.82,"text":"那所以呢其實"},{"start":11704.82,"end":11706.82,"text":"我其實是認為中央政府"},{"start":11706.82,"end":11708.82,"text":"要擔任地方政府在"},{"start":11708.82,"end":11710.82,"text":"氣候變遷治理的導師"},{"start":11710.82,"end":11712.82,"text":"那這個意思是什麼呢"},{"start":11712.82,"end":11714.82,"text":"第一個就是其實有很多這些方法"},{"start":11714.82,"end":11716.82,"text":"論在中央政府要做一個"},{"start":11716.82,"end":11718.82,"text":"對齊今天各個"},{"start":11718.82,"end":11720.82,"text":"縣市政府他開始要去"},{"start":11720.82,"end":11722.82,"text":"做自己的這個禁令自治條例"},{"start":11722.82,"end":11724.82,"text":"台北市說他減了10萬噸"},{"start":11724.82,"end":11726.82,"text":"高雄說他減了20萬噸"},{"start":11726.82,"end":11728.82,"text":"到底這個計算的基礎"},{"start":11728.82,"end":11730.82,"text":"他有沒有基於同樣的一個baseline"},{"start":11730.82,"end":11732.82,"text":"他最後可以貢獻回來"},{"start":11732.82,"end":11734.82,"text":"我們整體國家減量目標"},{"start":11734.82,"end":11736.82,"text":"因為事實上真正負擔"},{"start":11736.82,"end":11738.82,"text":"減量目標的是我們"},{"start":11738.82,"end":11740.82,"text":"中央政府的各個部會"},{"start":11740.82,"end":11742.82,"text":"所以今天責任在誰身上"},{"start":11742.82,"end":11744.82,"text":"權力有沒有統治在誰身上"},{"start":11744.82,"end":11746.82,"text":"這些財務資源也有沒有統治"},{"start":11746.82,"end":11748.82,"text":"在誰身上能力又"},{"start":11748.82,"end":11750.82,"text":"有沒有傳達到這些應該要負責任"},{"start":11750.82,"end":11752.82,"text":"的這些角色"},{"start":11752.82,"end":11754.82,"text":"第二個當然就是我們的資料跟基礎建設"},{"start":11754.82,"end":11756.82,"text":"其他也應該要能夠"},{"start":11756.82,"end":11758.82,"text":"有個共同的平台我們不要"},{"start":11758.82,"end":11760.82,"text":"22個縣市要重複去做"},{"start":11760.82,"end":11762.82,"text":"22次可能其實中央"},{"start":11762.82,"end":11764.82,"text":"甚至其他縣市已經"},{"start":11764.82,"end":11766.82,"text":"做過的工作再來可以"},{"start":11766.82,"end":11768.82,"text":"運用的知識他必須"},{"start":11768.82,"end":11770.82,"text":"要能夠讓地方政府呢"},{"start":11770.82,"end":11772.82,"text":"可以去依循實質的辦理政策"},{"start":11772.82,"end":11774.82,"text":"所以我們過往這些政策"},{"start":11774.82,"end":11776.82,"text":"研究報告他到最後必須"},{"start":11776.82,"end":11778.82,"text":"要轉譯成一個地方政府真正"},{"start":11778.82,"end":11780.82,"text":"可以運用的各個部會可以運用的"},{"start":11780.82,"end":11782.82,"text":"做法中央"},{"start":11782.82,"end":11784.82,"text":"政府中央主管機關"},{"start":11784.82,"end":11786.82,"text":"應該要去協助地方政府排除"},{"start":11786.82,"end":11788.82,"text":"具體的政策障礙所以我"},{"start":11788.82,"end":11790.82,"text":"不要去看地方政府到底辦了"},{"start":11790.82,"end":11792.82,"text":"多少場次的這些溝通說明會"},{"start":11792.82,"end":11794.82,"text":"而是他的公務體系"},{"start":11794.82,"end":11796.82,"text":"要去排除他的政策"},{"start":11796.82,"end":11798.82,"text":"障礙的時候他有沒有辦法"},{"start":11798.82,"end":11800.82,"text":"做到最後就是"},{"start":11800.82,"end":11802.82,"text":"實際上我們想要看到是一個典範"},{"start":11802.82,"end":11804.82,"text":"轉移中央政府的要做"},{"start":11804.82,"end":11806.82,"text":"的事情其實是要去評估"},{"start":11806.82,"end":11808.82,"text":"哪一些政策的"},{"start":11808.82,"end":11810.82,"text":"議題項目是有效的成本"},{"start":11810.82,"end":11812.82,"text":"多少這些經驗是不是"},{"start":11812.82,"end":11814.82,"text":"可以變成一個公共財他"},{"start":11814.82,"end":11816.82,"text":"才能夠讓我們整體國家的"},{"start":11816.82,"end":11818.82,"text":"氣候變遷治理可以更往前"},{"start":11818.82,"end":11820.82,"text":"一步所以這邊呢為提出五個"},{"start":11820.82,"end":11822.82,"text":"建議第一個就是"},{"start":11822.82,"end":11824.82,"text":"看會跟公管基金跟我們"},{"start":11824.82,"end":11826.82,"text":"現在整個公務預算裡面投入"},{"start":11826.82,"end":11828.82,"text":"氣候變遷治理政策項目他們之間的關係"},{"start":11828.82,"end":11830.82,"text":"到底是什麼我到底是先"},{"start":11830.82,"end":11832.82,"text":"投入重要又緊急"},{"start":11832.82,"end":11834.82,"text":"還是重要但不緊急"},{"start":11834.82,"end":11836.82,"text":"這個公務預算跟"},{"start":11836.82,"end":11838.82,"text":"漢飛漢文館基金之間"},{"start":11838.82,"end":11840.82,"text":"互相之間他是一個補充嗎"},{"start":11840.82,"end":11842.82,"text":"還是它是什麼關聯這件事情"},{"start":11842.82,"end":11844.82,"text":"其實應該可以從過往的經驗"},{"start":11844.82,"end":11846.82,"text":"有一個很明確的檢討報告"},{"start":11846.82,"end":11848.82,"text":"第二個就是既有的知識"},{"start":11848.82,"end":11850.82,"text":"要盤點跟運用我們不要再重新"},{"start":11850.82,"end":11852.82,"text":"開始第三個是從研究"},{"start":11852.82,"end":11854.82,"text":"到政策他有一個明確的轉"},{"start":11854.82,"end":11856.82,"text":"益我要形成的是政府"},{"start":11856.82,"end":11858.82,"text":"可使用的政策工具和"},{"start":11858.82,"end":11860.82,"text":"建議第四個就是中央"},{"start":11860.82,"end":11862.82,"text":"對地方必須要成立這個"},{"start":11862.82,"end":11864.82,"text":"技術協助的能力"},{"start":11864.82,"end":11866.82,"text":"所以我們要去發現問題之後"},{"start":11866.82,"end":11868.82,"text":"中央政府可以提供"},{"start":11868.82,"end":11870.82,"text":"地方政府一起解決問題"},{"start":11870.82,"end":11872.82,"text":"的能力最後就是我們"},{"start":11872.82,"end":11874.82,"text":"其實在這次有看到這個"},{"start":11874.82,"end":11876.82,"text":"信保跟利息補貼"},{"start":11876.82,"end":11878.82,"text":"後來就被增加進去一個用途"},{"start":11878.82,"end":11880.82,"text":"但事實上我們氣候變遷因法"},{"start":11880.82,"end":11882.82,"text":"第三三條裡面"},{"start":11882.82,"end":11884.82,"text":"就是有寫到說補助地方"},{"start":11884.82,"end":11886.82,"text":"政府辦理或是其實減量"},{"start":11886.82,"end":11888.82,"text":"但條式就是跟其他大的條"},{"start":11888.82,"end":11890.82,"text":"是寫在一起但我們同時"},{"start":11890.82,"end":11892.82,"text":"也了解如果今天條式要"},{"start":11892.82,"end":11894.82,"text":"地方為本的話"},{"start":11894.82,"end":11896.82,"text":"其實條式非常需要能力建構"},{"start":11896.82,"end":11898.82,"text":"所以這件事情也是建議"},{"start":11898.82,"end":11900.82,"text":"應該要考慮把地方"},{"start":11900.82,"end":11902.82,"text":"政府的條式也直接補進去"},{"start":11902.82,"end":11904.82,"text":"這個進行議註對象的法院"},{"start":11904.82,"end":11906.82,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":11906.79,"end":11908.79,"text":"好謝謝黃平涵秘書長"},{"start":11908.79,"end":11910.79,"text":"接下來我們邀請"},{"start":11910.79,"end":11912.79,"text":"私立淡江大學財務金融系"},{"start":11912.79,"end":11914.79,"text":"易建宗教授"},{"start":11926.99,"end":11928.99,"text":"主席各位在場的先進嘉賓大家好"},{"start":11928.99,"end":11930.99,"text":"我剛才是在樓上九樓"},{"start":11930.99,"end":11932.99,"text":"本人財務金融系的"},{"start":11932.99,"end":11934.99,"text":"所以剛才是一個跟"},{"start":11934.99,"end":11936.99,"text":"販官股銀行的金融系有關的議題"},{"start":11936.99,"end":11938.99,"text":"那是賴時報主持"},{"start":11938.99,"end":11940.99,"text":"剛結束所以下來"},{"start":11940.99,"end":11942.99,"text":"再來講就是因為我這個議題"},{"start":11942.99,"end":11944.99,"text":"是昨天才收到"},{"start":11944.99,"end":11946.99,"text":"問我能不能來"},{"start":11946.99,"end":11948.99,"text":"我當然答應了剛好上下跑"},{"start":11948.99,"end":11950.99,"text":"剛才有斷斷續續"},{"start":11950.99,"end":11952.99,"text":"聽到前面幾個專家學者講"},{"start":11952.99,"end":11954.99,"text":"等於就是我來這邊"},{"start":11954.99,"end":11956.99,"text":"說坦白的就是"},{"start":11956.99,"end":11958.99,"text":"受教的可能會比我要發言的多"},{"start":11958.99,"end":11960.99,"text":"先跟各位道歉"},{"start":11960.99,"end":11962.99,"text":"把他解說明一下"},{"start":11962.99,"end":11964.99,"text":"好那各位嘉賓我只能照我的意思"},{"start":11964.99,"end":11966.99,"text":"說一下我當然我的這個"},{"start":11966.99,"end":11968.99,"text":"可能有所過於簡單因為我看到"},{"start":11968.99,"end":11970.99,"text":"大家都非常深入我只能先用"},{"start":11970.99,"end":11972.99,"text":"口白的先講一下那我覺得"},{"start":11972.99,"end":11974.99,"text":"很多東西屬於質化和量化的"},{"start":11974.99,"end":11976.99,"text":"問題我們都知道Quality"},{"start":11976.99,"end":11978.99,"text":"Quality不一樣但是"},{"start":11978.99,"end":11980.99,"text":"你今天是質化的東西你要量化非常"},{"start":11980.99,"end":11982.99,"text":"難當然我們都可以找一些代理者把它"},{"start":11982.99,"end":11984.99,"text":"量化但一旦量化之後會出現一個問題"},{"start":11984.99,"end":11986.99,"text":"就是公平性的問題"},{"start":11986.99,"end":11988.99,"text":"他可不可行的問題我覺得"},{"start":11988.99,"end":11990.99,"text":"所以公平性可行性就非常之重要"},{"start":11990.99,"end":11992.99,"text":"所以我現在有些東西當然就是"},{"start":11992.99,"end":11994.99,"text":"可能的主管單位將來要怎麼做"},{"start":11994.99,"end":11996.99,"text":"做得更心理的問題待會我的"},{"start":11996.99,"end":11998.99,"text":"P雖然做一些是昨天半夜"},{"start":11998.99,"end":12000.99,"text":"大概三四點這個做兩三小"},{"start":12000.99,"end":12002.99,"text":"做的但我是爬問了一些"},{"start":12002.99,"end":12004.99,"text":"現在現有的狀況可能會太過"},{"start":12004.99,"end":12006.99,"text":"簡單那當然我先用口述"},{"start":12006.99,"end":12008.99,"text":"講就是我的認定"},{"start":12008.99,"end":12010.99,"text":"再來當然甚至有些東西可預測"},{"start":12010.99,"end":12012.99,"text":"未來的變化性我覺得這也非常重要"},{"start":12012.99,"end":12014.99,"text":"不管川普他認為世界"},{"start":12014.99,"end":12016.99,"text":"有沒有軟化那我認為"},{"start":12016.99,"end":12018.99,"text":"其實我跟他有時候也有點相像"},{"start":12018.99,"end":12020.99,"text":"我覺得現在軟化很多是人潮出來"},{"start":12020.99,"end":12022.99,"text":"的譬如我們一直用冷氣用冷氣"},{"start":12022.99,"end":12024.99,"text":"物質不滅定律我們全部都在"},{"start":12024.99,"end":12026.99,"text":"裡面吹冷氣裡面很涼外面非常熱"},{"start":12026.99,"end":12028.99,"text":"軟化就是被人做出來的"},{"start":12028.99,"end":12030.99,"text":"我們在裡面一直吹你比如說外面那個"},{"start":12030.99,"end":12032.99,"text":"你是不是要一個主機冷氣外面的主機"},{"start":12032.99,"end":12034.99,"text":"主機是不是排熱那很多主機"},{"start":12034.99,"end":12036.99,"text":"在一起我跟你們講這個小房間還不冷還要"},{"start":12036.99,"end":12038.99,"text":"有個這個流暢空間還有一個是"},{"start":12038.99,"end":12040.99,"text":"我們在出入方都很清楚這個"},{"start":12040.99,"end":12042.99,"text":"這個就是人所造成物質不滅定律"},{"start":12042.99,"end":12044.99,"text":"好那不管怎麼樣因此我覺得"},{"start":12044.99,"end":12046.99,"text":"公民性非常重要那我再談一下"},{"start":12046.99,"end":12048.99,"text":"我剛聽到一個東西就是說現在"},{"start":12048.99,"end":12050.99,"text":"我們講我可能從財經角度"},{"start":12050.99,"end":12052.99,"text":"或經濟角度講起我們在市場中"},{"start":12052.99,"end":12054.99,"text":"屬於自由與制衡"},{"start":12054.99,"end":12056.99,"text":"那也就是"},{"start":12056.99,"end":12058.99,"text":"我們講自由像民主與法制"},{"start":12058.99,"end":12060.99,"text":"是兩個極端從某個角度"},{"start":12060.99,"end":12062.99,"text":"你太過管理這也不行"},{"start":12062.99,"end":12064.99,"text":"你太過鬆散這個世界會亂掉"},{"start":12064.99,"end":12066.99,"text":"所以剛才有人提到我們現在定的"},{"start":12066.99,"end":12068.99,"text":"這個碳費制度"},{"start":12068.99,"end":12070.99,"text":"當然他有把它量化了沒有錯"},{"start":12070.99,"end":12072.99,"text":"那麼我也覺得這個"},{"start":12072.99,"end":12074.99,"text":"這個量化基礎還不錯他有一般"},{"start":12074.99,"end":12076.99,"text":"收費對不對也有所謂的優惠"},{"start":12076.99,"end":12078.99,"text":"匯率優惠匯率還要做到自主"},{"start":12078.99,"end":12080.99,"text":"減碳去申請還要經過"},{"start":12080.99,"end":12082.99,"text":"通過那當然還有這個你有什麼"},{"start":12082.99,"end":12084.99,"text":"基礎導向50100的這大家都是"},{"start":12084.99,"end":12086.99,"text":"專家了那當然一般的可能是"},{"start":12086.99,"end":12088.99,"text":"300塊這個修圖的"},{"start":12088.99,"end":12090.99,"text":"一公噸的話這是超過"},{"start":12090.99,"end":12092.99,"text":"這個2萬5之上的"},{"start":12092.99,"end":12094.99,"text":"我講一般的費率好那這個"},{"start":12094.99,"end":12096.99,"text":"計算公式我想這個在座大家都知道"},{"start":12096.99,"end":12098.99,"text":"不過剛才也提到一個東西"},{"start":12098.99,"end":12100.99,"text":"其實我也蠻呼籲也蠻"},{"start":12100.99,"end":12102.99,"text":"贊成但是是不是雙管區"},{"start":12102.99,"end":12104.99,"text":"我不知道因為財政部長剛是在"},{"start":12104.99,"end":12106.99,"text":"上面他好像也應該來這"},{"start":12106.99,"end":12108.99,"text":"不過我們有很多的問題"},{"start":12108.99,"end":12110.99,"text":"有很多時候我們以前談到"},{"start":12110.99,"end":12112.99,"text":"你知道嗎譬如"},{"start":12112.99,"end":12114.99,"text":"年紀大了以後是不是要以房養老"},{"start":12114.99,"end":12116.99,"text":"房子要去賣我那時候也是公立會在場"},{"start":12116.99,"end":12118.99,"text":"當時是福這個福委會"},{"start":12118.99,"end":12120.99,"text":"吧我不知道這個我真的不太清楚"},{"start":12120.99,"end":12122.99,"text":"傳言福委會改成什麼部改了"},{"start":12122.99,"end":12124.99,"text":"我不知道是不是就這個部反正會不辦的時候"},{"start":12124.99,"end":12126.99,"text":"當時我也大聲疾呼"},{"start":12126.99,"end":12128.99,"text":"誰說這個是福委部的問題"},{"start":12128.99,"end":12130.99,"text":"是福利問題這財經問題"},{"start":12130.99,"end":12132.99,"text":"開玩笑這跟錢有關"},{"start":12132.99,"end":12134.99,"text":"所以這應該跟金管會也要有關"},{"start":12134.99,"end":12136.99,"text":"財隊怎麼會以方向很多組"},{"start":12136.99,"end":12138.99,"text":"福利部的問題反正這個問題"},{"start":12138.99,"end":12140.99,"text":"包括這個問題也是一樣剛才講到"},{"start":12140.99,"end":12142.99,"text":"財政部因為碳稅稅"},{"start":12142.99,"end":12144.99,"text":"我覺得有它的重要性你看我們"},{"start":12144.99,"end":12146.99,"text":"有沒有看到消費稅好像沒看到"},{"start":12146.99,"end":12148.99,"text":"我們在美國的時候光考一個題目"},{"start":12148.99,"end":12150.99,"text":"就可以分出高低消費稅和所得稅"},{"start":12150.99,"end":12152.99,"text":"的差異"},{"start":12152.99,"end":12154.99,"text":"日本的有典型的"},{"start":12154.99,"end":12156.99,"text":"消費稅大家可以看到安倍金山"},{"start":12156.99,"end":12158.99,"text":"從5%到8%到10%國家產生"},{"start":12158.99,"end":12160.99,"text":"的什麼樣子現在降低成1%"},{"start":12160.99,"end":12162.99,"text":"我跟你講明天明年"},{"start":12162.99,"end":12164.99,"text":"消費一定會好譬如我在日本"},{"start":12164.99,"end":12166.99,"text":"買了非常多房子每次什麼都"},{"start":12166.99,"end":12168.99,"text":"10%什麼都10%100塊就110"},{"start":12168.99,"end":12170.99,"text":"感覺就不爽當然"},{"start":12170.99,"end":12172.99,"text":"美國更扯就每個城市都不一樣"},{"start":12172.99,"end":12174.99,"text":"你知道九點多的13%的甚至5%"},{"start":12174.99,"end":12176.99,"text":"都有而且各種商品不同"},{"start":12176.99,"end":12178.99,"text":"稅有它很重要的因"},{"start":12178.99,"end":12180.99,"text":"這個地方是不是也可以考量"},{"start":12180.99,"end":12182.99,"text":"剛講到我其實還蠻呼籲"},{"start":12182.99,"end":12184.99,"text":"碳稅的問題碳稅碳洪利"},{"start":12184.99,"end":12186.99,"text":"或許就抵制現在剛我覺得"},{"start":12186.99,"end":12188.99,"text":"這是我學到的你剛講的非常好"},{"start":12188.99,"end":12190.99,"text":"專管專用現在"},{"start":12190.99,"end":12192.99,"text":"我又換了氣貨我又去爭取要加入"},{"start":12192.99,"end":12194.99,"text":"換一台我就去申請3000多少的"},{"start":12194.99,"end":12196.99,"text":"沒有錯的專管專用可是"},{"start":12196.99,"end":12198.99,"text":"統收統支我覺得很重要這跟"},{"start":12198.99,"end":12200.99,"text":"整個國家的經濟都有關係"},{"start":12200.99,"end":12202.99,"text":"稅其實是非常重要"},{"start":12202.99,"end":12204.99,"text":"當然財政部已經夠忙了請他"},{"start":12204.99,"end":12206.99,"text":"再做這個事情我怕他真的是想躲"},{"start":12206.99,"end":12208.99,"text":"不一定啦"},{"start":12208.99,"end":12210.99,"text":"不管怎麼說我們有些先例可做"},{"start":12210.99,"end":12212.99,"text":"就像我們這個Kimi3"},{"start":12212.99,"end":12214.99,"text":"去徵流這個JMN來徵免一些東西"},{"start":12214.99,"end":12216.99,"text":"它就可以很快的出現"},{"start":12216.99,"end":12218.99,"text":"K3.0就可以徵流"},{"start":12218.99,"end":12220.99,"text":"也就是它的有樣學樣新加坡也有"},{"start":12220.99,"end":12222.99,"text":"新加坡有三稅制度"},{"start":12222.99,"end":12224.99,"text":"我是建議當然財政部不在"},{"start":12224.99,"end":12226.99,"text":"也可以考量這個我不知道"},{"start":12226.99,"end":12228.99,"text":"我這樣是不是好像影響了"},{"start":12228.99,"end":12230.99,"text":"房金部這個地方就怎麼做"},{"start":12230.99,"end":12232.99,"text":"這個碳稅這個也可以考量"},{"start":12232.99,"end":12234.99,"text":"所以我現在時間一下"},{"start":12234.99,"end":12236.99,"text":"就到了我"},{"start":12236.99,"end":12238.99,"text":"要講的一些簡單的東西"},{"start":12238.99,"end":12240.99,"text":"所以我就把反正已經做了"},{"start":12240.99,"end":12242.99,"text":"給大家看一下大家都知道很簡單的東西"},{"start":12242.99,"end":12244.99,"text":"就是大家都在座的專家"},{"start":12244.99,"end":12246.99,"text":"就我們就是因應這個"},{"start":12246.99,"end":12248.99,"text":"前後變遷因應法我們就要打到"},{"start":12248.99,"end":12250.99,"text":"205年啊我們要進"},{"start":12250.99,"end":12252.99,"text":"零碳排真的"},{"start":12252.99,"end":12254.99,"text":"我很希望我活到2050年"},{"start":12254.99,"end":12256.99,"text":"因為我可能活不到我很希望"},{"start":12256.99,"end":12258.99,"text":"那個時候能夠看到我們有時候"},{"start":12258.99,"end":12260.99,"text":"遠大的願景都很遠可是"},{"start":12260.99,"end":12262.99,"text":"我也希望我活的久好anyway"},{"start":12262.99,"end":12264.99,"text":"我期待他好那這個關鍵的"},{"start":12264.99,"end":12266.99,"text":"這個戰略也有了我們都講了"},{"start":12266.99,"end":12268.99,"text":"這個都訂了口號有時候也很好喊"},{"start":12268.99,"end":12270.99,"text":"但只要務實很重要當這個"},{"start":12270.99,"end":12272.99,"text":"跟一個有關因為這個"},{"start":12272.99,"end":12274.99,"text":"西邊我在這個企業設計"},{"start":12274.99,"end":12276.99,"text":"上課有講到這個東西會影響"},{"start":12276.99,"end":12278.99,"text":"到全球所有東西跟歐洲掛鉤"},{"start":12278.99,"end":12280.99,"text":"什麼都要繳到的太過"},{"start":12280.99,"end":12282.99,"text":"度期有正式時事期"},{"start":12282.99,"end":12284.99,"text":"開始了今年明年就開始做"},{"start":12284.99,"end":12286.99,"text":"一些動作了好不管怎麼說你因為"},{"start":12286.99,"end":12288.99,"text":"受到影響我們是不是要做動作"},{"start":12288.99,"end":12290.99,"text":"雖然我們不是聯合股市我們"},{"start":12290.99,"end":12292.99,"text":"可能被排除在外我們的碳排"},{"start":12292.99,"end":12294.99,"text":"因此也非常高但是我們必須做"},{"start":12294.99,"end":12296.99,"text":"好那當然講實際高風險等等"},{"start":12296.99,"end":12298.99,"text":"這裡我相信這個大家都知道"},{"start":12298.99,"end":12300.99,"text":"就不多說了我只講後面我"},{"start":12300.99,"end":12302.99,"text":"認為的一些簡單建議就是"},{"start":12302.99,"end":12304.99,"text":"這個當一些量化的東西"},{"start":12304.99,"end":12306.99,"text":"以後調整技術我覺得要調整"},{"start":12306.99,"end":12308.99,"text":"就是要這個按部就班"},{"start":12308.99,"end":12310.99,"text":"以小放大這個彈性調整"},{"start":12310.99,"end":12312.99,"text":"我覺得非常重要所以我看到"},{"start":12312.99,"end":12314.99,"text":"很多地方都談到這個調整機制"},{"start":12314.99,"end":12316.99,"text":"我們訂的調整機制當然也要"},{"start":12316.99,"end":12318.99,"text":"因時至於要隨時變化我覺得非常"},{"start":12318.99,"end":12320.99,"text":"重要當然就是要真正達到"},{"start":12320.99,"end":12322.99,"text":"一個誘因甚至讓這個企業能夠"},{"start":12322.99,"end":12324.99,"text":"自主減量這個很重要"},{"start":12324.99,"end":12326.99,"text":"好那這個路程這個計算"},{"start":12326.99,"end":12328.99,"text":"的情境這個大家都知道了我就"},{"start":12328.99,"end":12330.99,"text":"不多說了這個當我這裡強調"},{"start":12330.99,"end":12332.99,"text":"的就是怎麼樣調整機制"},{"start":12332.99,"end":12334.99,"text":"碳位調整機制要步步到位這個非常"},{"start":12334.99,"end":12336.99,"text":"重要所以要定期檢討機制和減量的"},{"start":12336.99,"end":12338.99,"text":"誘因啊這個誘因要怎麼樣"},{"start":12338.99,"end":12340.99,"text":"去用思考把那個incentive找出來"},{"start":12340.99,"end":12342.99,"text":"那這邊我用宏志揚動態調整是非常"},{"start":12342.99,"end":12344.99,"text":"重要的因為這個CBM也是"},{"start":12344.99,"end":12346.99,"text":"動態調整的當然因應做法"},{"start":12346.99,"end":12348.99,"text":"當然我們的審核機制也要公平也要"},{"start":12348.99,"end":12350.99,"text":"到位要這個所謂的"},{"start":12350.99,"end":12352.99,"text":"要做得到這個好"},{"start":12352.99,"end":12354.99,"text":"而且呢這個很多的東西"},{"start":12354.99,"end":12356.99,"text":"這個你的進"},{"start":12356.99,"end":12358.99,"text":"這個執行的追蹤也必須要做得好"},{"start":12358.99,"end":12360.99,"text":"而且你要做到任何的一個變化"},{"start":12360.99,"end":12362.99,"text":"調整的時候也要預先告知"},{"start":12362.99,"end":12364.99,"text":"我們的企業而不是突然到了以後"},{"start":12364.99,"end":12366.99,"text":"造成的民怨好那最後呢"},{"start":12366.99,"end":12368.99,"text":"當然這個申請審核的執行"},{"start":12368.99,"end":12370.99,"text":"的追蹤運動機制如何去進"},{"start":12370.99,"end":12372.99,"text":"進進呢當然有一些方向"},{"start":12372.99,"end":12374.99,"text":"包括我們現在要善用數位時代的"},{"start":12374.99,"end":12376.99,"text":"等等的東西我相信這也不需要我講"},{"start":12376.99,"end":12378.99,"text":"在位者應該都知道數位的"},{"start":12378.99,"end":12380.99,"text":"智慧的檢核這些都要"},{"start":12380.99,"end":12382.99,"text":"因為有時候我們反看一下我們的對岸"},{"start":12382.99,"end":12384.99,"text":"我們不管你用什麼的心態看對岸"},{"start":12384.99,"end":12386.99,"text":"對岸的這個成功起飛"},{"start":12386.99,"end":12388.99,"text":"是用不明的方式用垂直線的向上的方式"},{"start":12388.99,"end":12390.99,"text":"到我下個禮拜還要去"},{"start":12390.99,"end":12392.99,"text":"下門我每次去看都會有一些震撼"},{"start":12392.99,"end":12394.99,"text":"所以當然不管怎麼說我們在這個地方"},{"start":12394.99,"end":12396.99,"text":"尤其在AI或新科技一定要"},{"start":12396.99,"end":12398.99,"text":"做到好不能夠輸人"},{"start":12398.99,"end":12400.99,"text":"好最後一個就是因追蹤考核機制"},{"start":12400.99,"end":12402.99,"text":"精進這包括落實的動態"},{"start":12402.99,"end":12404.99,"text":"進度這是最後一頁了不好意思"},{"start":12404.99,"end":12406.99,"text":"那第二個就是強化第三"},{"start":12406.99,"end":12408.99,"text":"所以這個實地法我們在財務常常講"},{"start":12408.99,"end":12410.99,"text":"滴滴啊這個"},{"start":12410.99,"end":12412.99,"text":"滴滴檢測"},{"start":12412.99,"end":12414.99,"text":"非常重要的"},{"start":12414.99,"end":12416.99,"text":"除了在疫情期間沒辦法"},{"start":12416.99,"end":12418.99,"text":"滴滴之外我還記得我在疫情"},{"start":12418.99,"end":12420.99,"text":"公司開讀董會結果我們的"},{"start":12420.99,"end":12422.99,"text":"工廠在大陸沒有辦法去滴滴"},{"start":12422.99,"end":12424.99,"text":"快速用線上的結果還是一樣"},{"start":12424.99,"end":12426.99,"text":"無比線上你怎麼去滴滴不可能"},{"start":12426.99,"end":12428.99,"text":"所以滴滴這個非常重要我是這樣認為"},{"start":12428.99,"end":12430.99,"text":"落實一定要這樣還有我剛剛講"},{"start":12430.99,"end":12432.99,"text":"還有我剛剛講最後一個就是預警彈性的輔導機制"},{"start":12432.99,"end":12434.99,"text":"你要有輔導而且要預警"},{"start":12434.99,"end":12436.99,"text":"這很重要我最後只要講的我們當然"},{"start":12436.99,"end":12438.99,"text":"一直強調AI PLUS一頁的機制就是"},{"start":12438.99,"end":12440.99,"text":"infinite"},{"start":12440.99,"end":12442.99,"text":"就是我們的未來我們的無限"},{"start":12442.99,"end":12444.99,"text":"我的報告大概就講到這吧好像是"},{"start":12444.99,"end":12446.99,"text":"還有啊這個補助機制我就不講"},{"start":12446.99,"end":12448.99,"text":"我們時間到了謝謝你"},{"start":12453.09,"end":12455.09,"text":"好謝謝我們的聶教授"},{"start":12457.09,"end":12459.09,"text":"學者專家及委員"},{"start":12459.09,"end":12461.09,"text":"發言完畢"},{"start":12461.09,"end":12463.09,"text":"不過我想"},{"start":12463.09,"end":12465.09,"text":"我這邊要中整專家學者"},{"start":12465.09,"end":12467.09,"text":"跟民間團體意見形成六項"},{"start":12467.09,"end":12469.09,"text":"的建議等一下請環境部"},{"start":12469.09,"end":12471.09,"text":"那如果後續評估等一下再做"},{"start":12471.09,"end":12473.09,"text":"回應第一環境部"},{"start":12473.09,"end":12475.09,"text":"應遵循碳費"},{"start":12475.09,"end":12477.09,"text":"費率的審議會的決議"},{"start":12477.09,"end":12479.09,"text":"於今年度"},{"start":12479.09,"end":12481.09,"text":"今年底前公告下一"},{"start":12481.09,"end":12483.09,"text":"起碳費率下一階段"},{"start":12483.09,"end":12485.09,"text":"應評估將一般費率調升"},{"start":12485.09,"end":12487.09,"text":"到每噸八百到一千二"},{"start":12487.09,"end":12489.09,"text":"那若使"},{"start":12489.09,"end":12491.09,"text":"每兩年"},{"start":12491.09,"end":12493.09,"text":"階段的調升"},{"start":12493.09,"end":12495.09,"text":"機制以確保二零三零"},{"start":12495.09,"end":12497.09,"text":"年的碳價逐步達到"},{"start":12497.09,"end":12499.09,"text":"每噸一千二到一千八百"},{"start":12499.09,"end":12501.09,"text":"元同時也提高"},{"start":12501.09,"end":12503.09,"text":"為旅行自主"},{"start":12503.09,"end":12505.09,"text":"減量計畫的違約"},{"start":12505.09,"end":12507.09,"text":"成本並推動更多"},{"start":12507.09,"end":12509.09,"text":"企業申請自主"},{"start":12509.09,"end":12511.09,"text":"減量計畫"},{"start":12511.09,"end":12513.09,"text":"那第二環境部應該評估"},{"start":12513.09,"end":12515.09,"text":"重新檢討適用"},{"start":12515.09,"end":12517.09,"text":"優惠費率的"},{"start":12517.09,"end":12519.09,"text":"B的技術標根"},{"start":12519.09,"end":12521.09,"text":"指定消減率"},{"start":12522.55,"end":12524.55,"text":"根據現行的申請狀況"},{"start":12524.55,"end":12526.55,"text":"大多企業可輕鬆達標"},{"start":12526.55,"end":12528.55,"text":"並取得大量"},{"start":12527.95,"end":12529.95,"text":"碳費"},{"start":12529.31,"end":12531.31,"text":"負擔減免"},{"start":12531.31,"end":12533.31,"text":"故應評估提高指定目標"},{"start":12533.31,"end":12535.31,"text":"確保優惠"},{"start":12535.31,"end":12537.31,"text":"匯率的獎勵"},{"start":12537.68,"end":12539.68,"text":"積極的檢探企業"},{"start":12539.68,"end":12541.68,"text":"而非貼補原本及可達標的企業"},{"start":12543.32,"end":12545.32,"text":"第三環境部應該評估"},{"start":12545.32,"end":12547.32,"text":"強化自主減量計畫的"},{"start":12547.32,"end":12549.32,"text":"資訊公開"},{"start":12549.32,"end":12551.32,"text":"我想這也是剛剛今天很多"},{"start":12551.32,"end":12553.32,"text":"與會專家學者提到"},{"start":12553.32,"end":12555.32,"text":"來揭露每一年的年度指定目標"},{"start":12555.32,"end":12557.32,"text":"減量措施執行進度"},{"start":12557.32,"end":12559.32,"text":"查核方式年度執行"},{"start":12559.32,"end":12561.32,"text":"報告減量措施"},{"start":12561.32,"end":12563.32,"text":"對應的預估消減量"},{"start":12563.32,"end":12565.32,"text":"跟經費預算"},{"start":12565.32,"end":12567.32,"text":"然後要與民間團體討論"},{"start":12567.32,"end":12569.32,"text":"研擬出最佳"},{"start":12569.32,"end":12571.32,"text":"範例建立統一揭露"},{"start":12571.32,"end":12573.32,"text":"的格式讓社會能有效監督"},{"start":12573.32,"end":12575.32,"text":"自主減量計畫"},{"start":12575.32,"end":12577.32,"text":"來運行成效"},{"start":12578.08,"end":12580.08,"text":"第四環境部應該評估"},{"start":12580.08,"end":12582.08,"text":"參考國際做法"},{"start":12582.08,"end":12584.08,"text":"將碳費收入用於最易"},{"start":12584.08,"end":12586.08,"text":"受到氣候災害"},{"start":12586.08,"end":12588.08,"text":"衝擊的群體"},{"start":12588.08,"end":12590.08,"text":"尤其這個事實上是我最為關心的"},{"start":12590.08,"end":12592.08,"text":"可能要請環境部去做"},{"start":12592.08,"end":12594.08,"text":"建議評估後續"},{"start":12594.08,"end":12596.08,"text":"訂定縣市政府"},{"start":12596.08,"end":12598.08,"text":"檢探補助"},{"start":12598.08,"end":12600.08,"text":"執法因納入"},{"start":12600.08,"end":12602.08,"text":"對轄區內不利處境"},{"start":12602.08,"end":12604.08,"text":"群體支持成都之競爭性"},{"start":12605.77,"end":12607.77,"text":"計畫目標指標"},{"start":12607.95,"end":12609.95,"text":"以及碳費用於"},{"start":12609.95,"end":12611.95,"text":"調適計畫時也應納入"},{"start":12611.95,"end":12613.95,"text":"優先使不利處境的"},{"start":12613.95,"end":12615.95,"text":"群體受益之使用原則"},{"start":12615.95,"end":12617.95,"text":"第五,現行碳費規模"},{"start":12617.95,"end":12619.95,"text":"僅能補助事業採用"},{"start":12619.95,"end":12621.95,"text":"市場成熟度極高的"},{"start":12621.95,"end":12623.95,"text":"減碳技術跟設備"},{"start":12623.95,"end":12625.95,"text":"故建議環境部"},{"start":12625.95,"end":12627.95,"text":"應評估設法提高"},{"start":12627.95,"end":12629.95,"text":"碳"},{"start":12629.2,"end":12631.2,"text":"總收入以擴大"},{"start":12631.2,"end":12633.2,"text":"低碳創新投資"},{"start":12633.2,"end":12635.2,"text":"的規模以優先"},{"start":12635.2,"end":12637.2,"text":"支持市場成熟度"},{"start":12637.2,"end":12639.2,"text":"尚未充分但具備"},{"start":12639.2,"end":12641.2,"text":"高減碳潛能"},{"start":12641.2,"end":12643.2,"text":"潛力的一個減碳技術"},{"start":12644.23,"end":12646.23,"text":"第六,環境部應該評估"},{"start":12646.23,"end":12648.23,"text":"將碳費相關補助"},{"start":12648.64,"end":12650.64,"text":"的方法納入公正轉型"},{"start":12650.64,"end":12652.64,"text":"審查指標或將"},{"start":12652.64,"end":12654.64,"text":"公正轉型落實與補助"},{"start":12654.64,"end":12656.64,"text":"額度審查加分的進行連結"},{"start":12658.54,"end":12660.54,"text":"是否要求補助企業"},{"start":12660.54,"end":12662.54,"text":"應進行轉型衝擊盤點"},{"start":12662.54,"end":12664.54,"text":"勞資及利害"},{"start":12664.54,"end":12666.54,"text":"關係人寫上並提出"},{"start":12666.54,"end":12668.54,"text":"勞動力轉型規劃"},{"start":12668.54,"end":12670.54,"text":"以降低對勞工衝擊"},{"start":12672.41,"end":12674.41,"text":"以上六項,請環境部"},{"start":12674.41,"end":12676.41,"text":"說明現行辦理情形可行性"},{"start":12676.41,"end":12678.41,"text":"後續方向跟預定時程"},{"start":12678.41,"end":12680.41,"text":"並兩個月內提出"},{"start":12680.41,"end":12682.41,"text":"書面回覆送交"},{"start":12682.41,"end":12684.41,"text":"本委員會及與會團體"},{"start":12684.41,"end":12686.41,"text":"作為後續政策討論"},{"start":12686.41,"end":12688.41,"text":"跟監督參考"},{"start":12688.41,"end":12690.41,"text":"我要稍微提到今天為什麼坐在這邊"},{"start":12690.41,"end":12692.41,"text":"討論碳費這件事情"},{"start":12693.34,"end":12697.34,"text":"因為本來氣候變遷對下一代的影響非常大"},{"start":12697.34,"end":12699.34,"text":"我也非常相信"},{"start":12699.34,"end":12703.34,"text":"我們在CRC的第26號意見書"},{"start":12703.34,"end":12705.34,"text":"我們的兒少談到一個課題"},{"start":12705.34,"end":12707.34,"text":"就是說"},{"start":12706.92,"end":12708.92,"text":"環境就是他們的生命"},{"start":12708.92,"end":12710.92,"text":"如果我們這一代留給他們的是"},{"start":12710.92,"end":12712.92,"text":"不利他們再繼續生存的環境的話"},{"start":12712.92,"end":12714.92,"text":"那他們"},{"start":12716.17,"end":12718.17,"text":"將去哪裡"},{"start":12719.28,"end":12721.28,"text":"他們是我們的後代子孫"},{"start":12721.28,"end":12723.28,"text":"可是我們卻沒有把事情做好"},{"start":12723.28,"end":12725.28,"text":"更何況今天與會的"},{"start":12725.28,"end":12727.28,"text":"有提到目前對孕婦"},{"start":12727.28,"end":12729.28,"text":"甚至新生兒、嬰兒"},{"start":12729.28,"end":12731.28,"text":"都有所影響"},{"start":12731.28,"end":12733.28,"text":"還有慢性疾病跟老人"},{"start":12733.28,"end":12735.28,"text":"那甚至如果今天"},{"start":12735.28,"end":12737.28,"text":"氣溫每升高一度的話"},{"start":12737.28,"end":12739.28,"text":"對於暴力,事實上是"},{"start":12739.28,"end":12741.28,"text":"人際的暴力增加了"},{"start":12741.28,"end":12743.28,"text":"4到6%"},{"start":12743.28,"end":12745.28,"text":"這個我們對於家暴或者是"},{"start":12745.3,"end":12747.3,"text":"社群當中人際的暴力"},{"start":12747.3,"end":12749.3,"text":"這個都會有所影響"},{"start":12749.3,"end":12751.3,"text":"那更何況現行真的"},{"start":12751.3,"end":12753.3,"text":"碳費收了"},{"start":12753.3,"end":12755.3,"text":"那目前最大衝擊的"},{"start":12755.3,"end":12757.3,"text":"剛我們今天提到的勞工"},{"start":12757.3,"end":12759.3,"text":"甚至弱勢族群"},{"start":12759.3,"end":12761.3,"text":"為什麼講弱勢族群"},{"start":12761.3,"end":12763.3,"text":"其實如果在一個氣候極端的時候"},{"start":12763.3,"end":12765.3,"text":"農產品事實上是不利種植"},{"start":12765.3,"end":12767.3,"text":"最後所有東西都漲高"},{"start":12767.3,"end":12769.3,"text":"甚至碳費收"},{"start":12769.3,"end":12771.3,"text":"那當然本來馬上就會"},{"start":12771.3,"end":12773.3,"text":"有所衝擊,可是更長遠看的話"},{"start":12773.3,"end":12775.3,"text":"很多農產品都沒有辦法"},{"start":12775.3,"end":12777.3,"text":"生產出來"},{"start":12777.3,"end":12779.3,"text":"那搞不好會加重弱勢的"},{"start":12779.3,"end":12781.3,"text":"一個負擔"},{"start":12781.3,"end":12783.3,"text":"甚至店家現在也會對弱勢"},{"start":12783.3,"end":12785.3,"text":"有所衝擊,之前我就質詢過"},{"start":12785.3,"end":12787.3,"text":"對於我們的育兒院也好"},{"start":12787.3,"end":12789.3,"text":"獨居老人"},{"start":12789.3,"end":12791.3,"text":"這些店家會不會造成他們"},{"start":12791.3,"end":12793.3,"text":"更大的負擔"},{"start":12793.3,"end":12795.3,"text":"根本就是不利於"},{"start":12795.3,"end":12797.3,"text":"社福機構的運作"},{"start":12797.3,"end":12799.3,"text":"甚至弱勢家庭他們"},{"start":12799.3,"end":12801.3,"text":"面對到的問題"},{"start":12801.3,"end":12803.3,"text":"所以我們也會進一步要針對這一塊"},{"start":12804.85,"end":12806.85,"text":"等一下是不是可以去做回應"},{"start":12806.85,"end":12808.85,"text":"所以我們現在是不是就請環境部"},{"start":12808.85,"end":12810.85,"text":"來做回應,針對剛剛專案學者"},{"start":12810.85,"end":12812.85,"text":"還有我剛剛提的總結的"},{"start":12812.85,"end":12814.85,"text":"這些意見"},{"start":12823.16,"end":12825.16,"text":"主席、各位委員"},{"start":12825.16,"end":12827.16,"text":"還有各位專家學者"},{"start":12827.16,"end":12829.16,"text":"團體代表還有各部會的同仁"},{"start":12829.16,"end":12831.16,"text":"那剛剛我們很感謝"},{"start":12831.16,"end":12833.16,"text":"就是大家"},{"start":12833.16,"end":12835.16,"text":"提出這相關的建議"},{"start":12835.16,"end":12837.16,"text":"那尤其是"},{"start":12837.16,"end":12839.16,"text":"包括衛書長在這邊"},{"start":12839.16,"end":12841.16,"text":"不管是我們的溫室氣體減量級管理法"},{"start":12841.16,"end":12843.16,"text":"或者氣候變遷因應法"},{"start":12843.16,"end":12845.16,"text":"的一個制定跟實施"},{"start":12845.16,"end":12847.16,"text":"其實都是在我們"},{"start":12847.16,"end":12849.16,"text":"不管是台灣或者是國際上"},{"start":12849.16,"end":12851.16,"text":"對於我們氣候變遷的因應"},{"start":12851.16,"end":12853.16,"text":"都是非常重大的一個里程碑"},{"start":12853.16,"end":12855.16,"text":"那麼今天"},{"start":12855.16,"end":12857.16,"text":"在我們各個"},{"start":12857.16,"end":12859.16,"text":"專家學者還有"},{"start":12859.16,"end":12861.16,"text":"議會代表裡面所提到的"},{"start":12861.16,"end":12863.16,"text":"這個部分非常的感謝"},{"start":12863.16,"end":12865.16,"text":"其中一個核心的目標"},{"start":12865.16,"end":12867.16,"text":"大概就是"},{"start":12867.16,"end":12869.16,"text":"碳費不是為了收費"},{"start":12869.16,"end":12871.16,"text":"而是為了有效減碳"},{"start":12871.16,"end":12873.16,"text":"並且兼顧產業競爭力"},{"start":12873.16,"end":12875.16,"text":"與社會公平"},{"start":12875.16,"end":12877.16,"text":"這個是我想我個人就覺得"},{"start":12877.16,"end":12879.16,"text":"今天很主要的一個"},{"start":12879.16,"end":12881.16,"text":"目標目的在這個地方"},{"start":12881.16,"end":12883.16,"text":"所以後續我們針對"},{"start":12883.16,"end":12885.16,"text":"碳費費率的優惠制度"},{"start":12885.16,"end":12887.16,"text":"還有整個的一個"},{"start":12887.16,"end":12889.16,"text":"制度減量計畫查核等等"},{"start":12889.16,"end":12891.16,"text":"那還有這個"},{"start":12891.16,"end":12893.16,"text":"碳費收入的運用方面會"},{"start":12893.16,"end":12895.16,"text":"更加重視這個公正轉型"},{"start":12895.16,"end":12897.16,"text":"跟勞工與弱勢保障"},{"start":12897.16,"end":12899.16,"text":"公共健康跟地方調適"},{"start":12899.16,"end":12901.16,"text":"那至於碳稅"},{"start":12901.16,"end":12903.16,"text":"ETS或者CBAN跟"},{"start":12903.16,"end":12905.16,"text":"碳移除等制度"},{"start":12905.16,"end":12907.16,"text":"我們的建議我們會納入後續"},{"start":12907.16,"end":12909.16,"text":"在這個公共健康的檢討"},{"start":12909.16,"end":12911.16,"text":"那同時也有提到強化"},{"start":12911.16,"end":12913.16,"text":"跨部會跟中央地方的協作"},{"start":12913.16,"end":12915.16,"text":"我們彭部長這邊"},{"start":12915.16,"end":12917.16,"text":"其實也針對這個"},{"start":12917.16,"end":12919.16,"text":"氣候變遷提出"},{"start":12919.16,"end":12921.16,"text":"對我們內部來講"},{"start":12921.16,"end":12923.16,"text":"實質減碳"},{"start":12923.16,"end":12925.16,"text":"公開透明公正轉型"},{"start":12925.16,"end":12927.16,"text":"還有國際接軌"},{"start":12927.16,"end":12929.16,"text":"這也是他"},{"start":12929.16,"end":12931.16,"text":"期許我們要往這邊來進行"},{"start":12931.16,"end":12933.16,"text":"那至於今天我們剛剛主席"},{"start":12933.16,"end":12935.16,"text":"所提到的有六項的"},{"start":12935.16,"end":12937.16,"text":"結論"},{"start":12937.16,"end":12939.16,"text":"其實我們會在兩個月內之間"},{"start":12939.16,"end":12941.16,"text":"我們也會"},{"start":12941.16,"end":12943.16,"text":"徵詢各界的意見"},{"start":12943.16,"end":12945.16,"text":"包括今天來出席的"},{"start":12945.16,"end":12947.16,"text":"各位專家學者就這幾項"},{"start":12947.16,"end":12949.16,"text":"細節的部分我們會來做"},{"start":12949.16,"end":12951.16,"text":"檢討跟規劃"},{"start":12951.16,"end":12953.16,"text":"有關於碳費的這個費率的部分"},{"start":12953.16,"end":12955.16,"text":"我們第二屆的這個費率委員會"},{"start":12955.16,"end":12957.16,"text":"也即將成立"},{"start":12957.16,"end":12959.16,"text":"剛剛也有部分"},{"start":12959.16,"end":12961.16,"text":"代表可能提到"},{"start":12961.16,"end":12963.16,"text":"有關於這個委員的這個"},{"start":12963.16,"end":12965.16,"text":"代表性的部分"},{"start":12965.16,"end":12967.16,"text":"也許我們可以在行程的過程裡面"},{"start":12967.16,"end":12969.16,"text":"如果有團體來推薦的話"},{"start":12969.16,"end":12971.16,"text":"我們也可以"},{"start":12971.16,"end":12973.16,"text":"希望各界來推薦"},{"start":12973.16,"end":12975.16,"text":"我們更廣泛的納入"},{"start":12975.16,"end":12977.16,"text":"在我們的檢討"},{"start":12977.16,"end":12979.16,"text":"所以這幾項我簡要的"},{"start":12979.16,"end":12981.16,"text":"回應到這邊那我們會在"},{"start":12981.16,"end":12983.16,"text":"兩個月內把這個檢討的報告"},{"start":12983.16,"end":12985.16,"text":"還有應該要提出的"},{"start":12985.16,"end":12987.16,"text":"一些細節的內容"},{"start":12987.16,"end":12989.16,"text":"來跟委員會這邊做"},{"start":12989.16,"end":12991.16,"text":"提出這個報告以上簡要的一個回應"},{"start":12991.16,"end":12993.16,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":13002.45,"end":13004.45,"text":"要兩個月內不只是只有我們委員會"},{"start":13004.45,"end":13006.45,"text":"還有與會的團體"},{"start":13006.45,"end":13008.45,"text":"都要提供好謝謝市長"},{"start":13010.99,"end":13012.99,"text":"好 委員如現意所提書面資料"},{"start":13012.99,"end":13014.99,"text":"列入公報記錄"},{"start":13014.99,"end":13016.99,"text":"那現在做以下結論"},{"start":13016.99,"end":13018.99,"text":"依據立法院"},{"start":13018.99,"end":13020.99,"text":"職權行使法規定"},{"start":13020.99,"end":13022.99,"text":"委員會因提出公聽會報告"},{"start":13023.95,"end":13025.95,"text":"送交本院全體委員及"},{"start":13025.95,"end":13027.95,"text":"出席者公聽會報告"},{"start":13027.95,"end":13029.95,"text":"作為審查特定"},{"start":13029.95,"end":13031.95,"text":"議案之參考"},{"start":13031.95,"end":13033.95,"text":"我們會把各位的寶貴意見及書面資料"},{"start":13033.95,"end":13035.95,"text":"會編陳冊分送給本院"},{"start":13035.95,"end":13037.95,"text":"的全體委員以及與會的"},{"start":13037.95,"end":13039.95,"text":"政府及官代表"},{"start":13039.95,"end":13041.95,"text":"學者專家參與"},{"start":13041.95,"end":13043.95,"text":"今天非常感謝各位專家學者的"},{"start":13043.95,"end":13045.95,"text":"出席提供寶貴意見"},{"start":13045.95,"end":13047.95,"text":"那本次公聽會在此結束"},{"start":13047.95,"end":13049.95,"text":"散會謝謝"}],"speakers":[{"total_seconds":406.89,"embed_id":"SPEAKER_00","speaker":"SPEAKER_00","embedding":"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"},{"total_seconds":228.57,"embed_id":"SPEAKER_01","speaker":"SPEAKER_01","embedding":"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"},{"total_seconds":330.04,"embed_id":"SPEAKER_02","speaker":"SPEAKER_02","embedding":"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