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合併詢答"},{"start":1474.9299999999998,"end":1476.6299999999999,"text":"委員李博義說明提案要指"},{"start":1476.6299999999999,"end":1479.1299999999999,"text":"大陸委員會主任委員邱垂政報告"},{"start":1479.1299999999999,"end":1481.4299999999998,"text":"委員張志倫等11人質詢"},{"start":1481.4299999999998,"end":1483.4299999999998,"text":"由大陸委員會主任委員邱垂政"},{"start":1483.4299999999998,"end":1486.83,"text":"內政部地政司專門委員張翠恩答覆說明"},{"start":1486.83,"end":1489.1299999999999,"text":"登記發言委員除不在場者外"},{"start":1489.1299999999999,"end":1491.9299999999998,"text":"其餘均已發言完畢 詢答結束"},{"start":1492.03,"end":1494.13,"text":"委員林楚英 傅崑琪 徐欣瑩"},{"start":1494.13,"end":1496.93,"text":"所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":1496.93,"end":1499.13,"text":"書面質詢及未及答覆部分"},{"start":1499.13,"end":1501.73,"text":"請相關機關於一周內另以書面答覆"},{"start":1501.73,"end":1503.03,"text":"並複製本會"},{"start":1503.03,"end":1504.93,"text":"決議討論事項 首列議案"},{"start":1504.93,"end":1507.43,"text":"均令定期繼續審查 宣讀完畢"},{"start":1510.23,"end":1512.53,"text":"請問各位委員上次會議示錄有無錯誤"},{"start":1513.95,"end":1515.45,"text":"無錯誤 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邀請內政部部長"},{"start":1546.47,"end":1550.57,"text":"國土管理署署長就落實居住正義之困境與對策"},{"start":1550.57,"end":1551.57,"text":"13萬房"},{"start":1552.23,"end":1554.5300000000002,"text":"13萬戶涉宅新建檢討"},{"start":1554.5300000000002,"end":1557.23,"text":"都更涉宅容積獎勵失靈"},{"start":1557.23,"end":1560.13,"text":"繼行政院租賃市場"},{"start":1560.13,"end":1561.5300000000002,"text":"修法三大方向"},{"start":1561.5300000000002,"end":1563.23,"text":"保障租期限制漲幅"},{"start":1563.23,"end":1565.13,"text":"強化權益支持行進度"},{"start":1565.13,"end":1567.23,"text":"進行專題報告並被質詢"},{"start":1567.23,"end":1567.93,"text":"宣讀完畢"},{"start":1571.19,"end":1574.0900000000001,"text":"首先介紹在場委員及列席官有意義"},{"start":1574.0900000000001,"end":1575.49,"text":"在場順序介紹"},{"start":1575.49,"end":1576.79,"text":"首先介紹王美慧委員"},{"start":1578.5,"end":1579.4,"text":"張志倫委員"},{"start":1580.7,"end":1581.6000000000001,"text":"黃杰委員"},{"start":1582.82,"end":1584.1200000000001,"text":"接下來列席官員"},{"start":1584.1200000000001,"end":1585.52,"text":"內政部劉釋芳部長"},{"start":1586.69,"end":1588.99,"text":"國土管理署菜場展署長"},{"start":1590.03,"end":1592.33,"text":"財政部國庫署林秀燕副署長"},{"start":1593.35,"end":1596.4499999999998,"text":"金融監督管理委員會銀行局周一"},{"start":1597.06,"end":1597.76,"text":"美組長"},{"start":1598.95,"end":1601.75,"text":"中央銀行業務局方琴副局長"},{"start":1603.02,"end":1606.32,"text":"國家住宅及都市更新中心花敬群董事長"},{"start":1609.31,"end":1610.21,"text":"現在進行報告"},{"start":1610.21,"end":1612.41,"text":"請內政部劉釋芳部長報告"},{"start":1612.41,"end":1614.51,"text":"兩項專題報告請一併報告"},{"start":1615.56,"end":1616.06,"text":"一併"},{"start":1623.34,"end":1624.34,"text":"還有各位委員"},{"start":1624.34,"end":1626.24,"text":"各位女士先生大家早"},{"start":1626.24,"end":1629.24,"text":"今天非常高興就兩件"},{"start":1629.24,"end":1631.1399999999999,"text":"兩樣這個報告"},{"start":1631.1399999999999,"end":1633.54,"text":"跟大家先做一個簡單的口頭報告"},{"start":1633.54,"end":1637.1399999999999,"text":"首先是就有關於高房價環境下"},{"start":1637.1399999999999,"end":1641.84,"text":"青年安心承家購屋優惠貸款3.0政策的檢討的部分"},{"start":1641.84,"end":1648.54,"text":"對於落實居住正義健全房市政策與配套措施的專題報告跟備詢"},{"start":1648.54,"end":1651.74,"text":"謝謝委員對於夜館的這個議題的關心"},{"start":1651.94,"end":1655.34,"text":"為了延續照顧青年購屋的自住需求"},{"start":1655.34,"end":1658.74,"text":"財政部從115年8月1號起"},{"start":1658.74,"end":1660.94,"text":"推動青安3.0方案"},{"start":1660.94,"end":1664.24,"text":"新增借款人年齡限制條件等措施"},{"start":1664.24,"end":1666.54,"text":"對於青安3.0方案內容"},{"start":1666.54,"end":1669.84,"text":"本部尊重財政部的政策評估與規劃"},{"start":1669.84,"end":1671.74,"text":"另就青安3.0方案"},{"start":1671.74,"end":1675.84,"text":"對於落實居住正義健全房市政策跟配套措施的部分"},{"start":1675.84,"end":1677.54,"text":"內政部說明如下"},{"start":1677.74,"end":1681.84,"text":"一 青安3.0有助於青年婚育家庭自住購屋"},{"start":1681.84,"end":1685.04,"text":"本次財政部推動之青安3.0方案"},{"start":1685.04,"end":1690.54,"text":"將住宅資源更精準照顧青年自住手購的購屋族群"},{"start":1690.54,"end":1693.6399999999999,"text":"並且加強對婚育家庭的金融支持"},{"start":1693.6399999999999,"end":1696.54,"text":"將有助於減輕民眾的居住負擔"},{"start":1696.54,"end":1699.1399999999999,"text":"第二 本部配合的辦理事項"},{"start":1699.68,"end":1703.78,"text":"一 協助完善青安3.0代後管理機制"},{"start":1703.78,"end":1706.5800000000002,"text":"內政部已經配合財政部的需求"},{"start":1706.5800000000002,"end":1709.28,"text":"協助勾集代後出租查核"},{"start":1709.28,"end":1713.28,"text":"另就新婚兩年內提高貸款額度的部分"},{"start":1713.28,"end":1715.88,"text":"內政部也將配合財政部的規劃"},{"start":1715.88,"end":1718.78,"text":"協助辦理婚姻關係等資料之勾集"},{"start":1718.78,"end":1721.68,"text":"以確保政府資源合理的運用"},{"start":1721.68,"end":1724.48,"text":"第二 適時發動稽查防堵炒作"},{"start":1725.11,"end":1729.61,"text":"為了防堵有心人士不當影響防事交易的次序"},{"start":1729.61,"end":1732.11,"text":"平均地權條例已經增加限制"},{"start":1732.11,"end":1735.9099999999999,"text":"預售屋換約轉售及重罰炒作等規定"},{"start":1735.9099999999999,"end":1740.61,"text":"內政部並且訂有預售屋銷售聯合稽查實施計畫"},{"start":1740.61,"end":1744.31,"text":"將責成縣市地方政府常態性的稽查"},{"start":1744.31,"end":1748.9099999999999,"text":"以防堵利用青安3.0進行不當炒作的行為"},{"start":1748.9099999999999,"end":1752.51,"text":"第三 有關多元協助民眾居住的部分"},{"start":1752.51,"end":1755.11,"text":"內政部除了透過直接興辦社會住宅"},{"start":1755.11,"end":1758.41,"text":"推動包租貸款以及擴大租金補貼計畫"},{"start":1758.41,"end":1760.21,"text":"三項大原則之外"},{"start":1760.21,"end":1763.41,"text":"來照顧民眾居住的需求是我們的重點"},{"start":1763.41,"end":1766.51,"text":"另外 推動青年婚姻租屋協助專案"},{"start":1766.51,"end":1768.51,"text":"透過租金補貼的加碼"},{"start":1768.51,"end":1770.21,"text":"申請資格的放寬"},{"start":1770.21,"end":1771.71,"text":"以及增加補助項目"},{"start":1771.71,"end":1774.71,"text":"以及優先入住社會住宅等等的措施"},{"start":1774.71,"end":1777.31,"text":"以積極照顧婚姻青年族群"},{"start":1777.31,"end":1778.51,"text":"以上簡單的報告"},{"start":1778.51,"end":1780.11,"text":"敬請各位委員指教"},{"start":1782.08,"end":1784.48,"text":"有關第二個專題報告的部分"},{"start":1784.48,"end":1786.98,"text":"也感謝各位委員對內政部的關心"},{"start":1786.98,"end":1789.28,"text":"那今天有關於落實"},{"start":1789.28,"end":1792.8799999999999,"text":"居住正義的困境與對策三大方向部分"},{"start":1792.8799999999999,"end":1795.6799999999998,"text":"首先先針對百萬戶租屋家庭"},{"start":1795.6799999999998,"end":1799.78,"text":"支持計畫以及都更榮獎制度的檢討說明如下"},{"start":1799.78,"end":1802.28,"text":"第一 面對人口結構"},{"start":1802.28,"end":1806.3799999999999,"text":"還有氣候變遷以及都市老化的三大挑戰"},{"start":1806.3799999999999,"end":1808.3799999999999,"text":"需要滾動式的調整"},{"start":1808.3799999999999,"end":1811.78,"text":"以及檢討百萬戶租屋家庭的支持計畫"},{"start":1811.8799999999999,"end":1814.8799999999999,"text":"住宅政策是一個多元的政策工具"},{"start":1814.8799999999999,"end":1818.68,"text":"內政部依照住宅法訂定各項住宅政策"},{"start":1818.68,"end":1822.58,"text":"除了因應人口 家庭 都市以及住宅環境變化"},{"start":1822.58,"end":1823.98,"text":"提供不同階段"},{"start":1823.98,"end":1827.48,"text":"在不同需求家庭適切的居住支持"},{"start":1827.48,"end":1830.3799999999999,"text":"而且我們要面對台灣少子女化"},{"start":1830.3799999999999,"end":1832.58,"text":"高齡化 都市老化"},{"start":1832.58,"end":1835.58,"text":"以及氣候變遷等結構性的挑戰"},{"start":1835.58,"end":1837.68,"text":"所以內政部會持續滾動的"},{"start":1837.68,"end":1839.8799999999999,"text":"檢討各項的住宅政策"},{"start":1839.98,"end":1842.5800000000002,"text":"提升整體居住的支持效益"},{"start":1842.5800000000002,"end":1845.18,"text":"以及達到福國利民的目標"},{"start":1845.18,"end":1846.68,"text":"首先 在目前"},{"start":1846.68,"end":1849.38,"text":"政府已經逐步來建立直接興辦"},{"start":1849.38,"end":1851.2800000000002,"text":"包租代管 租金補貼"},{"start":1851.2800000000002,"end":1853.0800000000002,"text":"三大政策工具"},{"start":1853.0800000000002,"end":1855.38,"text":"截至115年7月底"},{"start":1855.38,"end":1859.68,"text":"已經提供超過24.3萬戶的社會住宅"},{"start":1859.68,"end":1862.68,"text":"其中直接興辦超過12.7萬戶"},{"start":1862.68,"end":1865.18,"text":"在中央有7369戶"},{"start":1865.18,"end":1868.68,"text":"以及地方有56297戶"},{"start":1868.68,"end":1872.48,"text":"在包租代管部分有超過11.6萬戶"},{"start":1872.48,"end":1876.5800000000002,"text":"另外租金補貼也已經核定91.9萬戶"},{"start":1876.5800000000002,"end":1880.28,"text":"而且持續在擴大整體的居住支持量能"},{"start":1880.28,"end":1883.88,"text":"朝三大措施方面來繼續努力"},{"start":1883.88,"end":1887.0800000000002,"text":"此外 內政部也透過住宅審議會"},{"start":1887.0800000000002,"end":1889.28,"text":"還有住宅興辦管考會議"},{"start":1889.28,"end":1892.5800000000002,"text":"以及住宅政策相關的諮詢會議"},{"start":1892.5800000000002,"end":1894.0800000000002,"text":"持續與地方政府"},{"start":1894.81,"end":1898.01,"text":"以及住宅相關的專家學者產業界"},{"start":1898.01,"end":1900.21,"text":"以及民間團體來交流"},{"start":1900.21,"end":1902.51,"text":"進行多方的溝通與討論"},{"start":1902.51,"end":1904.81,"text":"逐步建立共識與執行的機制"},{"start":1906.38,"end":1910.18,"text":"在社會住宅所需要的土地及新建期程方面"},{"start":1910.18,"end":1912.7800000000002,"text":"未來將透過都市更新分回"},{"start":1912.7800000000002,"end":1914.38,"text":"都市計畫回饋"},{"start":1914.38,"end":1916.98,"text":"大眾運輸導向發展TOD"},{"start":1916.98,"end":1917.88,"text":"容積獎勵"},{"start":1917.88,"end":1921.0800000000002,"text":"以及配合才化法修正等多元方式"},{"start":1921.0800000000002,"end":1923.18,"text":"增加社會住宅的供給"},{"start":1923.18,"end":1924.5800000000002,"text":"賴總統上任之後"},{"start":1924.5800000000002,"end":1927.68,"text":"全國持續發包新建有95處"},{"start":1927.68,"end":1930.98,"text":"逾2.4萬戶的社會住宅如附件一"},{"start":1930.98,"end":1932.68,"text":"其中內政部指示"},{"start":1932.78,"end":1934.68,"text":"國家住宅中心多元新辦"},{"start":1934.68,"end":1936.68,"text":"共1.7萬戶"},{"start":1936.68,"end":1939.68,"text":"後續政府會依實際的需求"},{"start":1939.68,"end":1942.88,"text":"結合地方在住宅政策的彈性調整"},{"start":1942.88,"end":1944.18,"text":"新辦的量能"},{"start":1944.18,"end":1944.98,"text":"第二"},{"start":1944.98,"end":1947.38,"text":"透過都更危老及容積獎勵"},{"start":1947.38,"end":1949.68,"text":"來擴充社宅及婚禦宅"},{"start":1949.68,"end":1951.68,"text":"為了透過容積獎勵措施"},{"start":1951.68,"end":1953.68,"text":"鼓勵民間新建捐贈"},{"start":1955.36,"end":1958.1599999999999,"text":"行政院在115年7月16日"},{"start":1958.1599999999999,"end":1959.86,"text":"韓送立法院審議"},{"start":1959.86,"end":1960.36,"text":"一"},{"start":1960.36,"end":1961.4599999999998,"text":"都市更新條例"},{"start":1961.4599999999998,"end":1962.06,"text":"二"},{"start":1962.06,"end":1965.4599999999998,"text":"都市危險及老舊建築物加速重建條例"},{"start":1965.4599999999998,"end":1966.6599999999999,"text":"修正草案"},{"start":1966.6599999999999,"end":1968.9599999999998,"text":"以及河北都市計畫法"},{"start":1968.9599999999998,"end":1970.76,"text":"臺灣省施行細則"},{"start":1970.76,"end":1973.36,"text":"擴大婚禦宅的供給規模"},{"start":1973.36,"end":1974.1599999999999,"text":"第三"},{"start":1974.1599999999999,"end":1975.4599999999998,"text":"強化租金補貼"},{"start":1975.4599999999998,"end":1976.56,"text":"以及包租代管"},{"start":1976.56,"end":1979.26,"text":"及時性可及性的居住支持"},{"start":1979.26,"end":1982.36,"text":"相較社宅直接新建的供給較長"},{"start":1982.36,"end":1984.4599999999998,"text":"租金補貼及包租代管社宅"},{"start":1984.4599999999998,"end":1985.86,"text":"能夠提供直行"},{"start":1985.86,"end":1987.9599999999998,"text":"及時性也就是早受惠"},{"start":1987.9599999999998,"end":1989.1599999999999,"text":"與可及性"},{"start":1989.1599999999999,"end":1991.76,"text":"包括在都會區的居住支持"},{"start":1991.76,"end":1995.1599999999999,"text":"回應民眾跨縣市移動的租屋需求"},{"start":1995.1599999999999,"end":1997.4599999999998,"text":"依據住宅法第19條"},{"start":1997.4599999999998,"end":1999.4599999999998,"text":"包租代管社會住宅"},{"start":1999.4599999999998,"end":2001.6599999999999,"text":"符合社會住宅之定義"},{"start":2001.6599999999999,"end":2004.06,"text":"因此中央除了持續推動"},{"start":2004.06,"end":2006.06,"text":"直接興辦社會住宅外"},{"start":2006.06,"end":2008.86,"text":"也將透過擴大包租代管方式"},{"start":2008.86,"end":2010.6599999999999,"text":"增加社會住宅的供給"},{"start":2012.27,"end":2014.17,"text":"114年度上半年"},{"start":2014.17,"end":2016.3700000000001,"text":"六都的屋齡在50年以下"},{"start":2016.3700000000001,"end":2018.8700000000001,"text":"連續一年低度的用電使用住宅"},{"start":2018.8700000000001,"end":2021.3700000000001,"text":"總共有37.6萬戶"},{"start":2021.3700000000001,"end":2024.47,"text":"透過搭配財政部房屋稅2.0"},{"start":2024.47,"end":2026.27,"text":"鼓勵屋主釋出房屋"},{"start":2026.27,"end":2028.3700000000001,"text":"促進房屋有效利用"},{"start":2028.3700000000001,"end":2030.3700000000001,"text":"增加租屋市場供給"},{"start":2030.3700000000001,"end":2032.3700000000001,"text":"114年下半年"},{"start":2032.3700000000001,"end":2035.27,"text":"已經較上半年減少3萬多戶"},{"start":2035.27,"end":2037.47,"text":"銜建政策已經有成效"},{"start":2037.47,"end":2039.5700000000002,"text":"截至115年7月底"},{"start":2039.5700000000002,"end":2041.3700000000001,"text":"包租代管有效契約數"},{"start":2041.37,"end":2043.57,"text":"已經超過11.6萬戶"},{"start":2044.25,"end":2046.85,"text":"針對近期部分包租代管業者"},{"start":2046.85,"end":2048.95,"text":"相關私人的非法爭議"},{"start":2048.95,"end":2051.45,"text":"內政部已經提出轉嫌機制"},{"start":2051.45,"end":2055.15,"text":"以確保服務房東房客權益不受影響"},{"start":2055.15,"end":2056.95,"text":"督促業者積極履約"},{"start":2056.95,"end":2059.15,"text":"或者後續的契約轉讓"},{"start":2059.15,"end":2061.55,"text":"如設有違反契約或法律規定"},{"start":2061.55,"end":2063.05,"text":"將會依法追究"},{"start":2063.77,"end":2066.27,"text":"另外300億的租金補貼政策"},{"start":2066.27,"end":2069.27,"text":"從111年開辦以來"},{"start":2069.27,"end":2071.87,"text":"累積相當的成果跟滿意度"},{"start":2071.87,"end":2073.87,"text":"特別在40歲以下"},{"start":2073.87,"end":2075.57,"text":"單身青年族群"},{"start":2075.57,"end":2077.77,"text":"113年度的調查滿意度"},{"start":2077.77,"end":2079.37,"text":"也超過七成"},{"start":2079.37,"end":2081.77,"text":"對於租金補貼義領案件"},{"start":2081.77,"end":2084.87,"text":"本部也會持續督促地方核實資料"},{"start":2084.87,"end":2086.07,"text":"加強審查"},{"start":2086.07,"end":2089.17,"text":"確保補貼的正確發放"},{"start":2089.17,"end":2091.37,"text":"最後為了落實保障"},{"start":2091.37,"end":2093.57,"text":"百萬戶租屋家庭的目標"},{"start":2093.57,"end":2096.67,"text":"內政部將持續多元興辦社會住宅"},{"start":2096.67,"end":2098.3700000000003,"text":"擴大包租代管量能"},{"start":2098.3700000000003,"end":2100.67,"text":"與強化租金補貼制度"},{"start":2100.67,"end":2102.67,"text":"並積極擴充婚姻宅宿"},{"start":2102.67,"end":2104.27,"text":"以回應社會大眾"},{"start":2104.27,"end":2106.8700000000003,"text":"對於社會住宅的關注與期望"},{"start":2106.8700000000003,"end":2108.27,"text":"以上簡單報告"},{"start":2108.27,"end":2110.4700000000003,"text":"請召委以及各位委員多多指教"},{"start":2110.4700000000003,"end":2110.8700000000003,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":2117.74,"end":2118.9399999999996,"text":"其他單位的報告"},{"start":2118.9399999999996,"end":2121.24,"text":"請委員自行參閱並刊登公報"},{"start":2121.24,"end":2122.64,"text":"現在進行詢答"},{"start":2122.64,"end":2125.54,"text":"委員諮詢前原例做幾點宣告"},{"start":2125.54,"end":2127.54,"text":"一本會委員質詢時間5分鐘"},{"start":2127.54,"end":2129.14,"text":"必要時得延長2分鐘"},{"start":2129.14,"end":2131.14,"text":"非本會委員質詢時間5分鐘"},{"start":2131.14,"end":2133.8399999999997,"text":"上午10點30分截止發言登記"},{"start":2133.8399999999997,"end":2136.3399999999997,"text":"二本次會議就不處理臨時提案"},{"start":2136.3399999999997,"end":2137.8399999999997,"text":"請問各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":2139.26,"end":2140.76,"text":"好 那現在進行詢答"},{"start":2141.33,"end":2143.73,"text":"請登記第一位的張志榮委員發言質詢"},{"start":2151.69,"end":2154.39,"text":"好 主席 各位委員 各位官員大家早"},{"start":2154.39,"end":2156.39,"text":"有請內政部劉時芳部長"},{"start":2163,"end":2163.7,"text":"張委員早"},{"start":2163.7,"end":2164.5,"text":"部長早"},{"start":2164.5,"end":2166.5,"text":"今天感謝召委"},{"start":2166.5,"end":2169,"text":"來這個要這個專案報告"},{"start":2169,"end":2170.7,"text":"針對現在年輕人"},{"start":2170.7,"end":2171.9,"text":"以及需要幫助的人"},{"start":2171.9,"end":2174.7,"text":"最關心的社宅的方案"},{"start":2174.7,"end":2176.7,"text":"來跟部長做個請教"},{"start":2176.7,"end":2181.1,"text":"最近在115年這個7月份"},{"start":2181.1,"end":2182.6,"text":"今年7月份有新"},{"start":2183.47,"end":2187.5699999999997,"text":"修訂了一個這個有關於社宅新建的相關計畫"},{"start":2187.5699999999997,"end":2191.67,"text":"他們計畫是從114年到121年的相關計畫"},{"start":2191.67,"end":2193.97,"text":"那把這個社宅8年"},{"start":2193.97,"end":2195.47,"text":"其中8年的目標"},{"start":2195.47,"end":2198.0699999999997,"text":"把它從原本的新建13萬戶"},{"start":2198.0699999999997,"end":2199.77,"text":"新建的13萬戶"},{"start":2199.77,"end":2201.97,"text":"大侃至3萬戶"},{"start":2201.97,"end":2204.0699999999997,"text":"降幅高達77%"},{"start":2204.0699999999997,"end":2207.0699999999997,"text":"那我還記得我曾經跟部長在諮詢台的時候說"},{"start":2207.0699999999997,"end":2209.5699999999997,"text":"這個賴總統當時在選前"},{"start":2209.67,"end":2213.4700000000003,"text":"承諾要新建的8年是新建13萬戶"},{"start":2213.4700000000003,"end":2214.4700000000003,"text":"他的原因"},{"start":2214.4700000000003,"end":2215.77,"text":"我再提醒一下部長"},{"start":2215.77,"end":2219.07,"text":"當時是因為蔡英文總統當時新建12萬戶"},{"start":2219.07,"end":2221.4700000000003,"text":"所以賴總統喊就是蓋13萬戶"},{"start":2221.4700000000003,"end":2222.9700000000003,"text":"其實我上次在巡達的時候"},{"start":2222.9700000000003,"end":2223.9700000000003,"text":"你砍了一半"},{"start":2223.9700000000003,"end":2225.27,"text":"只剩6萬戶"},{"start":2225.27,"end":2226.9700000000003,"text":"今天這個巡達的時候"},{"start":2226.9700000000003,"end":2229.8700000000003,"text":"你的新版計畫只有剩3萬戶"},{"start":2229.8700000000003,"end":2231.27,"text":"那我要請教一下部長"},{"start":2231.27,"end":2233.67,"text":"我剛講的這些內容是否屬實"},{"start":2235.0899999999997,"end":2235.79,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":2235.79,"end":2238.1899999999996,"text":"你講的內容當然不是事實"},{"start":2238.1899999999996,"end":2239.29,"text":"我剛也有提到"},{"start":2239.29,"end":2242.29,"text":"來我跟媒體的時候也提到這個部分"},{"start":2242.29,"end":2244.39,"text":"第一個我們到目前為止"},{"start":2244.39,"end":2247.79,"text":"所謂跟蔡總統蔡賴總統兩個加在一起"},{"start":2247.79,"end":2250.5899999999997,"text":"興辦25萬戶的目標並沒有改變"},{"start":2250.5899999999997,"end":2253.1899999999996,"text":"那因為蔡總統的12萬戶的目標"},{"start":2253.1899999999996,"end":2255.5899999999997,"text":"現在就陸續在實現當中"},{"start":2255.5899999999997,"end":2256.39,"text":"那賴總統"},{"start":2256.39,"end":2257.1899999999996,"text":"那我請教一下"},{"start":2257.1899999999996,"end":2258.1899999999996,"text":"請問賴總統"},{"start":2258.1899999999996,"end":2259.0899999999997,"text":"你們的新的計畫"},{"start":2259.0899999999997,"end":2259.99,"text":"今年7月公布計畫"},{"start":2259.99,"end":2262.0899999999997,"text":"你們新版的要新建"},{"start":2262.0899999999997,"end":2264.1899999999996,"text":"這間住宅的數量是幾戶"},{"start":2264.19,"end":2266.09,"text":"我跟委員報告一下"},{"start":2266.09,"end":2269.09,"text":"我們現在要把這個社會住宅的新建"},{"start":2269.09,"end":2271.79,"text":"從直接興辦改成叫多元興辦"},{"start":2271.79,"end":2273.59,"text":"這個可能委員也陸陸續續"},{"start":2273.59,"end":2276.29,"text":"在很多會議裡面都有聽到這樣的說法"},{"start":2276.29,"end":2278.59,"text":"所以我們現在的25萬戶的目標"},{"start":2278.59,"end":2279.89,"text":"既然沒有改變的話"},{"start":2279.89,"end":2281.19,"text":"13萬戶"},{"start":2281.19,"end":2283.79,"text":"它裡面的興辦的方式就非常多元"},{"start":2283.79,"end":2285.59,"text":"委員你給我一點點時間"},{"start":2285.59,"end":2287.59,"text":"到目前為止外界有說"},{"start":2287.59,"end":2290.29,"text":"這個賴總統的這個興辦的直接歸零"},{"start":2290.29,"end":2290.9900000000002,"text":"其實錯誤的"},{"start":2290.9900000000002,"end":2293.19,"text":"在我們副表已經提供出來"},{"start":2293.19,"end":2296.29,"text":"到目前為止賴總統他的興辦是1.7萬戶"},{"start":2297.41,"end":2298.71,"text":"目前1.7萬戶"},{"start":2298.71,"end":2300.71,"text":"我們已經提供數字給大家知道"},{"start":2305.02,"end":2306.42,"text":"那我請教"},{"start":2306.81,"end":2309.41,"text":"部長你們今年蓋的社會住宅的數量是幾戶"},{"start":2311.55,"end":2315.4500000000003,"text":"115年社會住宅興辦的中央辦蓋的是幾戶"},{"start":2317.54,"end":2319.14,"text":"我是不是請我們國土署"},{"start":2319.14,"end":2320.84,"text":"因為你特別講今年"},{"start":2320.84,"end":2322.34,"text":"今年到現在是上半年"},{"start":2322.34,"end":2324.84,"text":"所以我是不是請國土署來跟你回答"},{"start":2324.84,"end":2326.64,"text":"署長有沒有人可以回答這個問題"},{"start":2326.64,"end":2328.14,"text":"你們就跟我講"},{"start":2328.14,"end":2330.44,"text":"今年明年後年三年"},{"start":2330.44,"end":2332.44,"text":"預計興辦的社會住宅的"},{"start":2335.61,"end":2336.4100000000003,"text":"在我時間暫停"},{"start":2336.4100000000003,"end":2338.4100000000003,"text":"他就沒有回答我問題"},{"start":2338.4100000000003,"end":2339.4100000000003,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":2339.4100000000003,"end":2340.4100000000003,"text":"我會讓你問完"},{"start":2342.6,"end":2344.6,"text":"我們在今年跟明年"},{"start":2344.6,"end":2347,"text":"中央跟地方要蓋3萬戶"},{"start":2347,"end":2348.5,"text":"我請問中央蓋了幾戶"},{"start":2348.5,"end":2351.2999999999997,"text":"中央1.8萬"},{"start":2351.2999999999997,"end":2352.1,"text":"那明年呢"},{"start":2352.93,"end":2355.5299999999997,"text":"總累計大概這三年要蓋1.2"},{"start":2355.5299999999997,"end":2356.23,"text":"地方"},{"start":2356.83,"end":2358.63,"text":"我說再講清楚"},{"start":2358.63,"end":2360.63,"text":"中央興辦的社會住宅"},{"start":2360.63,"end":2361.63,"text":"今年是蓋幾戶"},{"start":2361.63,"end":2362.63,"text":"中央1.8"},{"start":2362.63,"end":2363.33,"text":"明年呢"},{"start":2364.0099999999998,"end":2364.81,"text":"你說今年"},{"start":2364.81,"end":2365.91,"text":"今年是1.8萬"},{"start":2365.91,"end":2367.41,"text":"明年多少"},{"start":2369.36,"end":2370.46,"text":"查一下"},{"start":2370.46,"end":2371.6600000000003,"text":"我們要查一下"},{"start":2372.28,"end":2373.48,"text":"明年還不知道"},{"start":2377.89,"end":2379.49,"text":"今天我看到你們的數字"},{"start":2384.97,"end":2385.97,"text":"大概才"},{"start":2385.97,"end":2387.27,"text":"對啊快2萬戶"},{"start":2387.27,"end":2388.27,"text":"那你明年蓋多少"},{"start":2394.53,"end":2395.9300000000003,"text":"不是中央一樣的"},{"start":2397.9,"end":2399.3,"text":"這個計畫"},{"start":2401.7,"end":2403,"text":"主席是不是時間可以暫停"},{"start":2403,"end":2404.6,"text":"他沒有辦法回答我問題"},{"start":2405.65,"end":2406.35,"text":"好 先暫停"},{"start":2412.62,"end":2414.62,"text":"今年1.1"},{"start":2415.43,"end":2416.6299999999997,"text":"今年1.1萬戶"},{"start":2416.6299999999997,"end":2417.1299999999997,"text":"明年呢"},{"start":2417.1299999999997,"end":2419.1299999999997,"text":"115年1.1萬戶"},{"start":2419.1299999999997,"end":2420.1299999999997,"text":"116年呢"},{"start":2420.1299999999997,"end":2421.23,"text":"也是1.1"},{"start":2421.23,"end":2422.33,"text":"也是1.1萬戶"},{"start":2422.33,"end":2423.43,"text":"那117年呢"},{"start":2424.19,"end":2425.29,"text":"我只要問三年就好"},{"start":2428.9,"end":2429.8,"text":"大概多少"},{"start":2429.8,"end":2431.4,"text":"大概1000戶"},{"start":2431.4,"end":2432.8,"text":"只有1000戶嘛"},{"start":2432.8,"end":2433.8,"text":"OK 好"},{"start":2433.8,"end":2435.3,"text":"那跟委員補充一下"},{"start":2435.3,"end":2436.6000000000004,"text":"這個是我們跟地方政府"},{"start":2436.6000000000004,"end":2437.5,"text":"有開過會"},{"start":2437.5,"end":2438.5,"text":"就是目前"},{"start":2438.5,"end":2439.8,"text":"土地沒有問題的"},{"start":2439.8,"end":2441.4,"text":"但是我們定期都會開會"},{"start":2441.4,"end":2443,"text":"這個數量會繼續增加"},{"start":2443.9,"end":2446.2000000000003,"text":"我們這些東西都是會繼續增加的"},{"start":2446.8,"end":2447.5,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":2447.5,"end":2449,"text":"那有請部長"},{"start":2449.4,"end":2450.2000000000003,"text":"所以部長"},{"start":2451.34,"end":2452.7400000000002,"text":"當時賴總統承諾"},{"start":2452.7400000000002,"end":2455.34,"text":"大家的社長從13萬戶"},{"start":2455.34,"end":2457.04,"text":"跳票變成3萬戶"},{"start":2457.04,"end":2458.04,"text":"就是大家可以看到"},{"start":2458.04,"end":2459.84,"text":"115年116年"},{"start":2459.84,"end":2461.54,"text":"還有在新建社會住宅"},{"start":2461.54,"end":2463.1400000000003,"text":"可是從117年以後"},{"start":2463.1400000000003,"end":2464.94,"text":"剛剛署長特別有講"},{"start":2464.94,"end":2467.04,"text":"只剩新建1000戶"},{"start":2467.04,"end":2468.04,"text":"這樣子的數量"},{"start":2468.04,"end":2469.44,"text":"我覺得本席認為"},{"start":2469.44,"end":2470.54,"text":"非常的不好"},{"start":2470.54,"end":2473.04,"text":"只是雪崩式的一個下降"},{"start":2473.04,"end":2475.2400000000002,"text":"所以這個就是要跟部長"},{"start":2475.2400000000002,"end":2476.84,"text":"您這樣講有失公允"},{"start":2476.84,"end":2477.94,"text":"要跟部長講"},{"start":2477.94,"end":2479.1400000000003,"text":"社會住宅的新長"},{"start":2480.14,"end":2481.8399999999997,"text":"這樣是我的質詢時間"},{"start":2481.8399999999997,"end":2484.54,"text":"第二個我要跟部長拜託的是"},{"start":2484.54,"end":2485.94,"text":"其實社會住宅新建"},{"start":2485.94,"end":2487.04,"text":"跟未來我們"},{"start":2487.04,"end":2488.64,"text":"剛這個會期"},{"start":2488.64,"end":2490.64,"text":"在討論的婚育宅"},{"start":2490.64,"end":2491.8399999999997,"text":"影響非常的重大"},{"start":2491.8399999999997,"end":2492.94,"text":"因為社會住宅"},{"start":2492.94,"end":2493.94,"text":"當時在修法的時候"},{"start":2493.94,"end":2495.74,"text":"我們就已經有20%"},{"start":2495.74,"end":2497.24,"text":"要把他新建的社會住宅"},{"start":2497.24,"end":2498.24,"text":"來做婚育宅"},{"start":2498.24,"end":2499.8399999999997,"text":"其實這對需要幫助"},{"start":2499.8399999999997,"end":2500.8399999999997,"text":"或是年輕人來講"},{"start":2500.8399999999997,"end":2502.24,"text":"非常的一個重要"},{"start":2502.24,"end":2503.64,"text":"那尤其你們這裡"},{"start":2503.64,"end":2505.14,"text":"我是直接講你們的問題"},{"start":2505.14,"end":2506.14,"text":"你們這裡"},{"start":2506.14,"end":2508.24,"text":"當時在報告裡面承諾說"},{"start":2508.3399999999997,"end":2509.9399999999996,"text":"到117年你們會提供"},{"start":2509.9399999999996,"end":2511.24,"text":"多少的婚育宅"},{"start":2511.24,"end":2512.74,"text":"我看是1萬戶"},{"start":2512.74,"end":2513.9399999999996,"text":"可是剛剛你又特別"},{"start":2513.9399999999996,"end":2515.74,"text":"已經講到117年"},{"start":2515.74,"end":2517.3399999999997,"text":"你們要提供婚育宅的數量"},{"start":2517.3399999999997,"end":2518.64,"text":"是3千戶"},{"start":2518.64,"end":2519.9399999999996,"text":"可是你剛剛跟我講的"},{"start":2519.9399999999996,"end":2521.54,"text":"你們新建的社會住宅數量"},{"start":2521.54,"end":2522.9399999999996,"text":"只有1千戶"},{"start":2522.9399999999996,"end":2524.4399999999996,"text":"你們新建的社會住宅數量"},{"start":2524.4399999999996,"end":2525.04,"text":"只有1千戶"},{"start":2525.04,"end":2527.24,"text":"成立20%才200戶"},{"start":2527.24,"end":2527.9399999999996,"text":"結果你跟我講"},{"start":2527.9399999999996,"end":2529.64,"text":"這邊的報告寫3千戶"},{"start":2529.64,"end":2531.14,"text":"這個資料是不是有問題"},{"start":2531.14,"end":2532.8399999999997,"text":"張委員所以你的邏輯"},{"start":2532.8399999999997,"end":2534.24,"text":"需要再做一下修正"},{"start":2534.24,"end":2535.74,"text":"我剛剛有特別提到"},{"start":2535.74,"end":2537.64,"text":"新建社會住宅是多元新建"},{"start":2537.64,"end":2538.54,"text":"您現在講的是"},{"start":2538.54,"end":2540.3399999999997,"text":"樹地上面蓋設的住宅"},{"start":2540.3399999999997,"end":2541.64,"text":"你這個叫做新建"},{"start":2541.64,"end":2543.14,"text":"原本才114年"},{"start":2543.14,"end":2544.44,"text":"現在有特別提到"},{"start":2544.44,"end":2547.3399999999997,"text":"未來有整開有都更有危老"},{"start":2547.3399999999997,"end":2548.44,"text":"這些分合的部分"},{"start":2548.44,"end":2549.94,"text":"全部都是做婚育宅"},{"start":2549.94,"end":2551.3399999999997,"text":"請問你們能保證"},{"start":2551.3399999999997,"end":2552.8399999999997,"text":"一定會割到3千戶嗎"},{"start":2552.8399999999997,"end":2554.14,"text":"來請問署長"},{"start":2554.75,"end":2556.55,"text":"你們根本當時前面的計算"},{"start":2556.55,"end":2558.95,"text":"就是拿新建的社會住宅"},{"start":2558.95,"end":2560.55,"text":"去乘以20%"},{"start":2560.55,"end":2562.55,"text":"去算婚育宅的數量"},{"start":2562.55,"end":2563.85,"text":"請問你沒有把它加起來"},{"start":2563.85,"end":2565.15,"text":"你可以保證117年"},{"start":2565.15,"end":2567.95,"text":"會有3千戶婚育宅嗎"},{"start":2567.95,"end":2569.05,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":2569.05,"end":2569.95,"text":"這些數據上面"},{"start":2569.95,"end":2571.85,"text":"我們是依照目前會慢慢"},{"start":2571.85,"end":2574.25,"text":"在市場上面已經完工的"},{"start":2574.25,"end":2576.25,"text":"再陸續提供出來當婚育宅的"},{"start":2576.25,"end":2577.75,"text":"這個部分的算法是這樣"},{"start":2577.75,"end":2579.85,"text":"那委員剛剛提的這個是新建的"},{"start":2579.85,"end":2580.95,"text":"你剛剛是不是有跟我講說"},{"start":2580.95,"end":2583.65,"text":"你117年預計新建的社宅"},{"start":2583.65,"end":2584.9500000000003,"text":"大概是1千戶"},{"start":2584.9500000000003,"end":2587.35,"text":"那你的婚育宅可以達到3千戶"},{"start":2587.35,"end":2588.55,"text":"請問這組如何計算"},{"start":2589.42,"end":2591.92,"text":"婚育宅裡面包含現在要開始"},{"start":2591.92,"end":2593.7200000000003,"text":"辦招租的這些案件"},{"start":2593.7200000000003,"end":2595.02,"text":"都會有一些婚育宅"},{"start":2595.02,"end":2597.42,"text":"那也包含一些都跟分回"},{"start":2597.42,"end":2599.7200000000003,"text":"必須要提供的一些婚育宅"},{"start":2599.7200000000003,"end":2600.42,"text":"所以這個數量"},{"start":2600.42,"end":2602.42,"text":"不能跟直接興辦的這個數量"},{"start":2602.42,"end":2604.12,"text":"你前面幾個都直接興辦"},{"start":2604.12,"end":2605.42,"text":"差不多的數量去計算"},{"start":2605.42,"end":2606.82,"text":"沒關係啦"},{"start":2607.89,"end":2608.89,"text":"署長 我跟你講"},{"start":2608.89,"end":2609.89,"text":"未來我們一定有時間"},{"start":2609.89,"end":2610.89,"text":"可以證明一切"},{"start":2610.89,"end":2612.39,"text":"我要拜託部長的就是"},{"start":2612.39,"end":2614.89,"text":"其實婚育宅 尤其是政府新建的"},{"start":2614.89,"end":2616.89,"text":"真的可以讓人民的心理"},{"start":2616.89,"end":2617.89,"text":"可以比較安心"},{"start":2617.89,"end":2620.39,"text":"我舉個例子 我有一個朋友"},{"start":2620.39,"end":2622.39,"text":"他本來一直想要生小孩"},{"start":2622.39,"end":2623.89,"text":"他一直在外面租房"},{"start":2623.89,"end":2624.89,"text":"一直生不出小孩"},{"start":2624.89,"end":2626.69,"text":"後來他住到婚育宅了以後"},{"start":2626.69,"end":2628.89,"text":"那個太太他心裡就非常的輕鬆"},{"start":2628.89,"end":2629.89,"text":"覺得他有一個"},{"start":2629.89,"end":2631.39,"text":"可以住12年以上的房子"},{"start":2631.39,"end":2633.39,"text":"後來就順利懷孕了"},{"start":2633.39,"end":2635.89,"text":"這就是為什麼新建社會住宅"},{"start":2635.89,"end":2637.89,"text":"比在外面租房子"},{"start":2637.89,"end":2640.89,"text":"我認為真的對"},{"start":2642.28,"end":2644.28,"text":"民眾的心理的影響"},{"start":2644.28,"end":2645.78,"text":"真的差非常的多"},{"start":2645.78,"end":2648.28,"text":"那接下來我要請教這個"},{"start":2648.28,"end":2649.28,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":2649.28,"end":2650.78,"text":"我還是跟委員報告一下"},{"start":2650.78,"end":2652.28,"text":"婚育宅真的不是只有"},{"start":2652.28,"end":2653.78,"text":"直接從樹地興建"},{"start":2653.78,"end":2654.78,"text":"我們剛剛有提到"},{"start":2654.78,"end":2657.28,"text":"現在只要是分分為一"},{"start":2657.28,"end":2659.28,"text":"他可以住至少12年"},{"start":2659.28,"end":2660.28,"text":"是 沒有錯"},{"start":2660.28,"end":2661.28,"text":"條件都沒有改"},{"start":2661.28,"end":2662.28,"text":"如果是高階高端的婚育宅的話"},{"start":2662.28,"end":2663.28,"text":"請問住多久"},{"start":2663.28,"end":2664.28,"text":"都一樣"},{"start":2664.28,"end":2665.28,"text":"可以住12年嗎"},{"start":2665.28,"end":2666.28,"text":"只要是婚育宅符合資格"},{"start":2666.28,"end":2667.78,"text":"租金補貼的可以住12年嗎"},{"start":2667.78,"end":2668.28,"text":"是的"},{"start":2668.81,"end":2670.81,"text":"只要是婚育宅符合資格"},{"start":2670.81,"end":2672.81,"text":"房東會願意讓一般的民眾"},{"start":2672.81,"end":2673.81,"text":"不是一般民眾"},{"start":2673.81,"end":2675.81,"text":"跟婚育宅裡面的青年族群"},{"start":2675.81,"end":2677.81,"text":"所有權人是政府"},{"start":2677.81,"end":2679.31,"text":"一般房東是私人"},{"start":2679.31,"end":2680.31,"text":"他怎麼可能願意"},{"start":2680.31,"end":2681.81,"text":"讓你一般人住12年"},{"start":2681.81,"end":2683.81,"text":"所以部長我要跟您報告"},{"start":2684.93,"end":2686.93,"text":"這個想法非常不對"},{"start":2686.93,"end":2688.93,"text":"所以請還是要回去好好檢討"},{"start":2688.93,"end":2690.43,"text":"那接下來實際的關係"},{"start":2690.43,"end":2690.93,"text":"我還是要問"},{"start":2690.93,"end":2692.93,"text":"最近大家最關心的一個重點"},{"start":2692.93,"end":2694.93,"text":"就是包租代管龍頭"},{"start":2694.93,"end":2698.93,"text":"造基屋管有限公司"},{"start":2698.93,"end":2699.93,"text":"股份有限公司"},{"start":2699.93,"end":2700.93,"text":"他最近發生了"},{"start":2700.93,"end":2702.93,"text":"這樣子的一個非常大的問題"},{"start":2702.93,"end":2704.93,"text":"他是現在全台灣"},{"start":2704.93,"end":2706.43,"text":"包租代管的龍頭"},{"start":2706.43,"end":2707.93,"text":"他所掌管的業務"},{"start":2707.93,"end":2708.93,"text":"包括他的子公司"},{"start":2708.93,"end":2709.93,"text":"造基投資"},{"start":2709.93,"end":2711.93,"text":"寄居縣管理股份有分公司"},{"start":2711.93,"end":2713.93,"text":"他的整個行話的範圍"},{"start":2713.93,"end":2714.93,"text":"有18個縣市"},{"start":2714.93,"end":2716.93,"text":"他總共的案件"},{"start":2716.93,"end":2717.93,"text":"2萬8千件以上"},{"start":2717.93,"end":2719.93,"text":"市占率占60%"},{"start":2719.93,"end":2720.93,"text":"所以我們今天"},{"start":2720.93,"end":2722.93,"text":"市占率占60%"},{"start":2722.93,"end":2723.93,"text":"我們看到今天"},{"start":2723.93,"end":2725.93,"text":"所有我們的報告書裡面"},{"start":2725.93,"end":2726.93,"text":"完全沒有寫到"},{"start":2728.25,"end":2729.25,"text":"有關於現在這個問題"},{"start":2729.25,"end":2732.25,"text":"只有寫說是私人非法爭議"},{"start":2732.25,"end":2734.25,"text":"等等相關的問題"},{"start":2734.25,"end":2735.25,"text":"我想要請問"},{"start":2735.25,"end":2737.25,"text":"這個內政部"},{"start":2737.25,"end":2738.25,"text":"部長"},{"start":2738.25,"end":2740.25,"text":"不是因為他跟政府合作"},{"start":2740.62,"end":2743.62,"text":"他在網站上都說他跟政府合作"},{"start":2743.62,"end":2745.62,"text":"所以他才可以推廣"},{"start":2745.62,"end":2747.62,"text":"現在他所最重要的包租代管業務"},{"start":2747.62,"end":2749.62,"text":"所以你們如果報告只有寫這樣"},{"start":2749.62,"end":2752.62,"text":"是不是行政有卸責的問題"},{"start":2752.62,"end":2753.62,"text":"你們評選"},{"start":2753.62,"end":2754.62,"text":"到底有沒有在護航"},{"start":2754.62,"end":2755.62,"text":"請部長回答"},{"start":2755.62,"end":2756.62,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":2756.62,"end":2757.62,"text":"我想您講的部分"},{"start":2757.62,"end":2759.62,"text":"有一部分不是事實"},{"start":2759.62,"end":2761.62,"text":"第一個我們在第一時間"},{"start":2761.62,"end":2762.62,"text":"發生這個事情的時候"},{"start":2762.62,"end":2765.62,"text":"就已經了解他已經設法"},{"start":2765.62,"end":2766.62,"text":"那既然是設法的話"},{"start":2766.62,"end":2767.62,"text":"我們就尊重司法的偵查"},{"start":2767.62,"end":2769.62,"text":"不予評論任何設法的部分"},{"start":2769.62,"end":2771.62,"text":"只知道說他是私募公司在"},{"start":2771.62,"end":2773.62,"text":"那這個部分是牽涉到公司法"},{"start":2773.62,"end":2775.62,"text":"跟金融管理機構應該處理的"},{"start":2775.62,"end":2778.62,"text":"但是就我們在處理包租代管業務上面"},{"start":2778.62,"end":2781.62,"text":"我們要先確保包租代管業務"},{"start":2781.62,"end":2782.62,"text":"是不是合法"},{"start":2782.62,"end":2784.62,"text":"還有我們現在的房東房客的權益"},{"start":2784.62,"end":2786.62,"text":"有沒有受到改變"},{"start":2786.62,"end":2787.62,"text":"到目前為止這兩項"},{"start":2787.62,"end":2789.62,"text":"都是還是在可控的風險之內"},{"start":2791.27,"end":2792.27,"text":"請教部長"},{"start":2792.27,"end":2794.27,"text":"這怎麼會說是可控的風險"},{"start":2794.27,"end":2795.27,"text":"過去來講這些案件"},{"start":2795.27,"end":2797.27,"text":"都是由政府公開招標"},{"start":2797.27,"end":2800.27,"text":"民眾他願意把他自己的房子拿出來"},{"start":2800.27,"end":2802.27,"text":"就是因為政府"},{"start":2802.27,"end":2803.27,"text":"他相信政府"},{"start":2803.27,"end":2805.27,"text":"所以才可以讓這家公司"},{"start":2805.27,"end":2807.27,"text":"有這麼多兩萬八千件以上的"},{"start":2807.27,"end":2809.27,"text":"這個整個案件"},{"start":2809.27,"end":2810.27,"text":"那你現在說"},{"start":2810.27,"end":2813.27,"text":"你要如何讓這些房東房客安心"},{"start":2813.27,"end":2814.27,"text":"你要怎麼去做"},{"start":2814.27,"end":2815.27,"text":"你現在要"},{"start":2815.27,"end":2816.27,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":2816.27,"end":2817.27,"text":"要讓私人公司接手嗎"},{"start":2817.27,"end":2819.27,"text":"那誰可以掛保證"},{"start":2819.27,"end":2821.27,"text":"未來所有的問題不會有產生問題"},{"start":2821.27,"end":2822.27,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":2822.27,"end":2825.27,"text":"你們有沒有依照相關法律的規定"},{"start":2825.27,"end":2826.27,"text":"去做財務上的監督"},{"start":2826.27,"end":2828.27,"text":"我們當然都是依法行政"},{"star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祝福董 祝福董"},{"start":2857.41,"end":2859.41,"text":"等一下 等一下主席時間暫停一下"},{"start":2860.77,"end":2862.77,"text":"這個就是我今天要問主席的問題"},{"start":2863.3,"end":2864.3,"text":"不要 不是我"},{"start":2864.75,"end":2866.75,"text":"等一下 我要請教主席"},{"start":2866.75,"end":2872.75,"text":"今天各部會裡面每一個單位都有提供專案報告"},{"start":2872.75,"end":2875.75,"text":"可是我沒有看到國家住都州區的專案報告"},{"start":2876.49,"end":2877.49,"text":"我想請教主席"},{"start":2877.49,"end":2879.49,"text":"他是不是沒有尊重我們委員會"},{"start":2879.49,"end":2882.49,"text":"請問各位委員手上有沒有拿到住都中心的專案報告"},{"start":2883.14,"end":2885.14,"text":"各位報告委員並沒有要求我們要提專案報告"},{"start":2885.88,"end":2887.88,"text":"你來開會來講這個社宅"},{"start":2889.57,"end":2892.57,"text":"包租代管的部分說沒有提供專案報告"},{"start":2892.57,"end":2893.57,"text":"那我們今天怎麼開會"},{"start":2895.85,"end":2896.85,"text":"這委員可以詢問"},{"start":2896.85,"end":2899.85,"text":"因為我們並沒有被要求要來提專案報告"},{"start":2899.85,"end":2903.85,"text":"你今天有列在出席的名單上面嗎"},{"start":2903.85,"end":2905.85,"text":"沒有 我們是出席"},{"start":2905.85,"end":2907.85,"text":"但是討論的議題裡面並沒有"},{"start":2907.85,"end":2908.85,"text":"沒有 沒有"},{"start":2908.85,"end":2911.85,"text":"你寫說是因為你認為是司法爭議"},{"start":2911.85,"end":2912.85,"text":"所以你覺得跟你沒關係"},{"start":2912.85,"end":2914.85,"text":"所以今天不提專案報告嗎"},{"start":2916.44,"end":2918.44,"text":"當然是跟我們有關所以我才來"},{"start":2918.44,"end":2919.44,"text":"我才會來跟委員說明"},{"start":2920.42,"end":2922.42,"text":"請問主席他有沒有提供專案報告"},{"start":2922.42,"end":2924.42,"text":"沒有委員拿到你的專案報告"},{"start":2925.14,"end":2927.14,"text":"所以我是不是等你提供專案報告以後"},{"start":2927.14,"end":2928.14,"text":"再上來提"},{"start":2928.14,"end":2930.14,"text":"開會通知上面並沒有提到這個"},{"start":2930.14,"end":2931.14,"text":"我們這個事情"},{"start":2931.89,"end":2935.89,"text":"今天講的有關於社宅包租代管"},{"start":2936.97,"end":2937.97,"text":"內政部長都特別在講"},{"start":2937.97,"end":2940.97,"text":"他覺得包租代管就是現在百萬"},{"start":2941.75,"end":2943.75,"text":"這個租屋補貼的政策之一"},{"start":2943.75,"end":2944.75,"text":"今天沒有提供專案報告"},{"start":2944.75,"end":2946.75,"text":"然後我們現在看到社會上"},{"start":2946.75,"end":2948.75,"text":"針對造基物管這麼大的一個風波"},{"start":2948.75,"end":2951.75,"text":"影響到兩萬八千件物管的事情上"},{"start":2951.75,"end":2953.75,"text":"造基造基只有一萬五千件"},{"start":2953.75,"end":2954.75,"text":"並沒有兩萬八千件"},{"start":2954.75,"end":2956.75,"text":"還包含他的子公司沒有嗎"},{"start":2956.75,"end":2957.75,"text":"他沒有子公司"},{"start":2957.75,"end":2959.75,"text":"基居卸就是基居卸"},{"start":2959.75,"end":2960.75,"text":"造基就是造基"},{"start":2960.75,"end":2961.75,"text":"他沒有關係"},{"start":2962.69,"end":2964.69,"text":"這個部分我沒有辦法替他們回答"},{"start":2964.69,"end":2965.69,"text":"但是就反正目前沒有"},{"start":2965.69,"end":2966.69,"text":"好還是給"},{"start":2966.69,"end":2967.69,"text":"那給董事長"},{"start":2967.69,"end":2968.69,"text":"既然你都沒有提供專案報告"},{"start":2968.69,"end":2970.69,"text":"那我看你要怎麼回答"},{"start":2970.69,"end":2972.69,"text":"那我請教一下針對"},{"start":2973.05,"end":2975.05,"text":"這個我們的房東跟房客"},{"start":2975.05,"end":2976.05,"text":"他現在"},{"start":2976.05,"end":2977.05,"text":"你們有沒有過去"},{"start":2977.05,"end":2979.05,"text":"到底你們有沒有查核這家公司"},{"start":2979.05,"end":2980.05,"text":"他的財務狀況有沒有問題"},{"start":2980.05,"end":2983.05,"text":"那我們現在針對他的租金跟押金"},{"start":2983.05,"end":2986.05,"text":"跟整個未來移轉的部分產生問題"},{"start":2986.05,"end":2987.05,"text":"比如說我舉例"},{"start":2987.05,"end":2989.05,"text":"有些的案件"},{"start":2989.05,"end":2991.05,"text":"你要怎麼去分配給這六家"},{"start":2991.05,"end":2994.05,"text":"你們現在講的這個民間的這個"},{"start":2994.05,"end":2997.05,"text":"六都一共九十家業者"},{"start":2997.05,"end":2998.05,"text":"你們怎麼分配"},{"start":2998.05,"end":3000.05,"text":"我們有些案件比較好"},{"start":3000.05,"end":3001.05,"text":"有些案件比較不好"},{"start":3001.05,"end":3002.05,"text":"你們怎麼分配"},{"start":3002.05,"end":3003.05,"text":"各位報告"},{"start":3003.05,"end":3005.05,"text":"其實我們在前天已經開始啟動這個"},{"start":3005.05,"end":3007.05,"text":"轉型的平台"},{"start":3007.05,"end":3009.05,"text":"那當然第一個是有我們"},{"start":3009.05,"end":3010.05,"text":"我們在住中心的網站"},{"start":3010.05,"end":3013.05,"text":"有開通一個需求協助登記的一個表單"},{"start":3013.05,"end":3017.05,"text":"那房東可以上網來填這個表單"},{"start":3017.05,"end":3020.05,"text":"上面就會有所有可以服務業者的名單"},{"start":3020.05,"end":3022.05,"text":"第一個他可以自己選"},{"start":3022.05,"end":3024.05,"text":"他要找誰來服務"},{"start":3024.05,"end":3026.05,"text":"第二個如果他沒有"},{"start":3026.88,"end":3028.88,"text":"特別編號哪一家業者"},{"start":3028.88,"end":3029.88,"text":"那我們會依照"},{"start":3029.88,"end":3033.88,"text":"這一些沒有特別編號的這些房東的順序"},{"start":3033.88,"end":3036.88,"text":"那就依照業者的順序來輪配"},{"start":3036.88,"end":3038.88,"text":"所以說這個部分的制度都已經建立起來"},{"start":3038.88,"end":3039.88,"text":"而且已經運作了兩天"},{"start":3039.88,"end":3041.88,"text":"目前非常的順暢"},{"start":3041.88,"end":3042.88,"text":"好謝謝花董事長"},{"start":3042.88,"end":3044.88,"text":"花董事長最後問你一個問題"},{"start":3044.88,"end":3047.88,"text":"我相信政府是相信"},{"start":3047.88,"end":3051.88,"text":"這個我是相信政府才有這麼多的房客"},{"start":3051.88,"end":3053.88,"text":"房東來去加入這樣子的一個專案"},{"start":3053.88,"end":3054.88,"text":"最後我請教"},{"start":3054.88,"end":3056.88,"text":"你們未來針對這家公司"},{"start":3056.88,"end":3058.88,"text":"有沒有一個處罰的機制"},{"start":3060.55,"end":3063.55,"text":"我想因為基居縣目前剛"},{"start":3063.55,"end":3066.55,"text":"他們負責人已經表示他無法營運"},{"start":3066.55,"end":3068.55,"text":"所以我們當然第一個優先是把賬房"},{"start":3068.55,"end":3072.55,"text":"當房客的權益來執行這個服務業的轉"},{"start":3072.55,"end":3074.55,"text":"你們過去有對他的財務差合嗎"},{"start":3074.55,"end":3075.55,"text":"其實根本報告"},{"start":3075.55,"end":3079.55,"text":"本質上我們當然都會做業者的評鑑"},{"start":3079.55,"end":3083.55,"text":"但是所有業者他內部的財務狀況"},{"start":3083.55,"end":3085.55,"text":"那基本上已經不是我們"},{"start":3085.55,"end":3087.55,"text":"只是執行包租到業務底下"},{"start":3087.55,"end":3090.55,"text":"我們能夠查的範圍是有限的"},{"start":3090.55,"end":3095.55,"text":"所以說特別是他的董事長"},{"start":3095.55,"end":3097.55,"text":"私人在外的另外的行為"},{"start":3097.55,"end":3100.55,"text":"更不涉及包租代管業務本身"},{"start":3100.55,"end":3102.55,"text":"那這個部門在實務上面"},{"start":3102.55,"end":3103.55,"text":"確實沒有權利去查核"},{"start":3103.55,"end":3105.55,"text":"我最後還是要拜託董事長"},{"start":3105.55,"end":3106.55,"text":"他是特許的行業"},{"start":3106.55,"end":3108.55,"text":"所以政府還是要有監管的責任"},{"start":3108.55,"end":3110.55,"text":"現在看到這麼多的受害者"},{"start":3110.55,"end":3111.55,"text":"他們質詢自修會"},{"start":3111.55,"end":3113.55,"text":"希望說董事長這邊一定要盡速"},{"start":3113.55,"end":3115.55,"text":"來解決相關的問題"},{"start":3115.55,"end":3116.55,"text":"也確保房東房客"},{"start":3116.55,"end":3118.55,"text":"以及整體租屋市場的安全"},{"start":3118.55,"end":3119.55,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":3126.12,"end":3128.12,"text":"我們現在會請許中信委員發言直選"},{"start":3137.55,"end":3141.55,"text":"各位同仁我們有請劉思芳劉部長"},{"start":3146.19,"end":3147.19,"text":"部長好"},{"start":3147.86,"end":3148.86,"text":"徐委員你好"},{"start":3148.86,"end":3149.86,"text":"部長好"},{"start":3150.39,"end":3155.39,"text":"聽說您17年要降格為千戶大人"},{"start":3155.62,"end":3156.62,"text":"啊"},{"start":3156.6,"end":3158.6,"text":"千戶大人日本的愛里長"},{"start":3159.94,"end":3161.94,"text":"你是中央的部長"},{"start":3161.94,"end":3165.94,"text":"千萬不要在117年變成千戶大人"},{"start":3166.84,"end":3167.84,"text":"謝謝委員行政"},{"start":3169.32,"end":3173.32,"text":"社會素材的興建急速的跳票下降"},{"start":3173.93,"end":3176.93,"text":"造成我們造機投資者"},{"start":3180.21,"end":3182.21,"text":"誘發穩健投資人"},{"start":3182.21,"end":3186.21,"text":"購買高利息的私募公司債額受害"},{"start":3186.55,"end":3188.55,"text":"駐都中心則無旁貸"},{"start":3189.34,"end":3191.34,"text":"這個法律關係如何來理解"},{"start":3192.41,"end":3195.41,"text":"我做了一個體系圖來跟部長做報告"},{"start":3196.61,"end":3201.61,"text":"當我們根據公司法248條私募公司債的時候"},{"start":3201.91,"end":3202.91,"text":"它有兩種情形"},{"start":3204.37,"end":3205.37,"text":"當它有擔保"},{"start":3206.11,"end":3207.11,"text":"這個公司在穩定"},{"start":3207.87,"end":3209.87,"text":"所以它是低利息"},{"start":3211.33,"end":3214.33,"text":"不論公司做高風險低風險投資"},{"start":3214.33,"end":3216.33,"text":"它都是低利息"},{"start":3216.33,"end":3219.33,"text":"因為它穩定可以本金利息可以回收"},{"start":3220.73,"end":3222.73,"text":"但是當私募公司債"},{"start":3222.78,"end":3224.78,"text":"無擔保的時候"},{"start":3225.87,"end":3227.87,"text":"正常情形"},{"start":3227.71,"end":3229.71,"text":"它會低利息"},{"start":3230.16,"end":3232.16,"text":"公司做低風險投資"},{"start":3233.5,"end":3235.5,"text":"這個時候投資人"},{"start":3235.5,"end":3238.5,"text":"他們是仰賴發行公司的債信"},{"start":3238.5,"end":3242.5,"text":"將來會緩緩它本金跟利息"},{"start":3243.17,"end":3245.17,"text":"但是當無擔保公司債"},{"start":3245.55,"end":3247.55,"text":"有高利息"},{"start":3247.55,"end":3250.55,"text":"包括我們寄金稅年息10.5%"},{"start":3251.56,"end":3259.56,"text":"年息高利息以及造基12%年息的高利息的時候"},{"start":3260.57,"end":3262.57,"text":"如果公司做高風險投資"},{"start":3264.21,"end":3265.21,"text":"這個時候"},{"start":3266.15,"end":3269.15,"text":"它買公司債其實類似買股票"},{"start":3269.15,"end":3271.15,"text":"也就是我表格裡面最下一行"},{"start":3271.99,"end":3274.99,"text":"但是當它獲得這樣一個高利息"},{"start":3276.36,"end":3279.36,"text":"它本來是要投資一個低風險的投資"},{"start":3280.28,"end":3283.28,"text":"結果卻被李建成掏空而受害"},{"start":3283.86,"end":3285.86,"text":"這個時候有玄機了"},{"start":3285.98,"end":3287.98,"text":"為什麼這些投資人"},{"start":3288.82,"end":3290.82,"text":"它要獲高利"},{"start":3291.65,"end":3293.65,"text":"10%"},{"start":3292.87,"end":3295.87,"text":"10.5%到12%的利息"},{"start":3295.87,"end":3296.87,"text":"就是高利息"},{"start":3296.87,"end":3297.87,"text":"我們現在平均利息"},{"start":3298.69,"end":3301.69,"text":"利息銀行大12%而已"},{"start":3301.95,"end":3303.95,"text":"所以很顯然它是高利息"},{"start":3303.95,"end":3305.95,"text":"當然很多人趨之若鶩"},{"start":3306.82,"end":3308.82,"text":"趨之若鶩的原因"},{"start":3308.82,"end":3311.82,"text":"沒有想到李建成會掏空變成受害"},{"start":3313.1,"end":3317.1,"text":"那他們為什麼要去做這個投資呢"},{"start":3317.88,"end":3318.88,"text":"有兩個關係"},{"start":3318.88,"end":3319.88,"text":"人跟物"},{"start":3321.23,"end":3326.23,"text":"就是剛才部長您被講成117年"},{"start":3326.23,"end":3329.23,"text":"要變成千戶大人這件事情"},{"start":3329.23,"end":3332.23,"text":"也就是政府少建社會住宅"},{"start":3332.23,"end":3337.23,"text":"增多包租代管的業務"},{"start":3337.23,"end":3340.23,"text":"增多包租代管的業務讓這些"},{"start":3340.67,"end":3342.67,"text":"公司在的投資人認為"},{"start":3342.67,"end":3347.67,"text":"造機不管是造機造機還是寄居縣"},{"start":3348.06,"end":3350.06,"text":"他們的包租業"},{"start":3350.06,"end":3353.06,"text":"這個包租代管的業務會穩定"},{"start":3353.92,"end":3355.92,"text":"的增加或是穩定"},{"start":3356.91,"end":3358.91,"text":"所以這是物的關係"},{"start":3358.91,"end":3361.91,"text":"也就是政府的社會住宅的跳票"},{"start":3361.91,"end":3364.91,"text":"多包租代管這個趨勢"},{"start":3364.91,"end":3367.91,"text":"被公司在的投資人"},{"start":3367.91,"end":3370.91,"text":"信以為他做這個公司在投資"},{"start":3370.91,"end":3373.91,"text":"他可以穩定的回收他的投資"},{"start":3374.24,"end":3376.24,"text":"那另外就是一個人的關係"},{"start":3376.95,"end":3378.95,"text":"這個人的關係呢"},{"start":3379.4,"end":3381.4,"text":"我們根據媒體報導"},{"start":3382.2,"end":3384.2,"text":"我們花鏡群"},{"start":3384.72,"end":3385.72,"text":"董事長"},{"start":3386.13,"end":3388.13,"text":"跟李建成"},{"start":3388.62,"end":3390.62,"text":"你們的關係如何啊"},{"start":3392.53,"end":3394.53,"text":"你們的關係如何"},{"start":3395.25,"end":3397.25,"text":"董事長你跟李建成的關係如何"},{"start":3401.51,"end":3403.51,"text":"是"},{"start":3403.04,"end":3405.04,"text":"包委員當然就是因為從事"},{"start":3405.04,"end":3408.04,"text":"他從事社會住宅包租代管工作之後"},{"start":3408.04,"end":3409.04,"text":"彼此才認識"},{"start":3410.32,"end":3412.32,"text":"這一疊資料是受害人拿出來"},{"start":3413.71,"end":3415.71,"text":"跟我申訴的他們的"},{"start":3415.71,"end":3417.71,"text":"私募公司在的資料這麼大疊"},{"start":3417.71,"e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59.36,"text":"沒有做其他的方式投資"},{"start":3661.03,"end":3663.03,"text":"那為什麼他們投資"},{"start":3663.03,"end":3667.03,"text":"他已經不是包租代管的問題"},{"start":3667.03,"end":3669.03,"text":"那是公司在相關的監理的問題"},{"start":3669.03,"end":3671.03,"text":"這個是這樣喔"},{"start":3671.03,"end":3675.03,"text":"我們這些公司在募集有他的目的"},{"start":3675.03,"end":3677.03,"text":"你們把它謀做高風險的投資"},{"start":3677.03,"end":3679.03,"text":"不是我們啦"},{"start":3679.03,"end":3681.03,"text":"是他不是我們啦"},{"start":3681.03,"end":3683.03,"text":"我沒有在那個門裡面啊"},{"start":3682.32,"end":3684.32,"text":"的確是這樣"},{"start":3684.32,"end":3686.32,"text":"但是造機"},{"start":3685.38,"end":3689.38,"text":"跟寄居蟹把這些穩健的公司在"},{"start":3689.38,"end":3691.38,"text":"拿來做高風險的投資"},{"start":3692.77,"end":3694.77,"text":"欸"},{"start":3693.87,"end":3695.87,"text":"董事長"},{"start":3695.22,"end":3697.22,"text":"您的再信"},{"start":3697.65,"end":3699.65,"text":"我們住都中心的再信"},{"start":3699.65,"end":3701.65,"text":"被業者用來"},{"start":3701.65,"end":3703.65,"text":"作為投資的工具"},{"start":3703.65,"end":3705.65,"text":"包委員"},{"start":3705.65,"end":3707.65,"text":"社會住宅包租代管政策"},{"start":3707.65,"end":3709.65,"text":"不等於國家住都中心"},{"start":3711.6,"end":3713.6,"text":"我們"},{"start":3713.6,"end":3717.6,"text":"你硬要把這些東西扯到我的身上"},{"start":3717.6,"end":3719.6,"text":"扯到住都中心身上"},{"start":3719.6,"end":3721.6,"text":"其實我覺得你學法律"},{"start":3721.6,"end":3723.6,"text":"你是法律系大教授"},{"start":3723.6,"end":3725.6,"text":"你不應該有這樣的邏輯觀念"},{"start":3725.6,"end":3727.6,"text":"我就是因為學法我才知道"},{"start":3727.6,"end":3729.6,"text":"所以你的邏輯很奇怪"},{"start":3729.6,"end":3731.6,"text":"投資人就是因為有人的關係"},{"start":3731.6,"end":3733.6,"text":"有物的關係"},{"start":3733.6,"end":3735.6,"text":"他才願意來私募這個公司在"},{"start":3735.6,"end":3737.6,"text":"他以為他是穩健投資"},{"start":3737.6,"end":3739.6,"text":"可以每年10.5%的利息"},{"start":3739.6,"end":3741.6,"text":"結果卻被掏空"},{"start":3741.6,"end":3743.6,"text":"是"},{"start":3743.6,"end":3745.6,"text":"就是因為我學法才知道公司在"},{"start":3745.6,"end":3747.6,"text":"之所以能夠被"},{"start":3747.93,"end":3749.93,"text":"喜歡投資"},{"start":3749.93,"end":3751.93,"text":"他本來他要做穩健投資的結果他現在受害"},{"start":3754.28,"end":3756.28,"text":"我們怎麼辦"},{"start":3756.28,"end":3758.28,"text":"所以他跟包租代管優越推動一點關係都沒有"},{"start":3758.28,"end":3760.28,"text":"他是拿到那筆錢"},{"start":3760.28,"end":3761.28,"text":"的"},{"start":3761.28,"end":3763.28,"text":"他是不可以用那筆錢"},{"start":3763.28,"end":3765.28,"text":"他沒有人他不少"},{"start":3765.28,"end":3767.28,"text":"包租代管"},{"start":3766.65,"end":3768.65,"text":"我覺得"},{"start":3768.65,"end":3770.65,"text":"我很遺憾"},{"start":3770.65,"end":3772.65,"text":"陳大教授是這樣子來分析理論的"},{"start":3772.65,"end":3774.65,"text":"我很遺憾"},{"start":3774.65,"end":3776.65,"text":"我至少我不遺憾"},{"start":3777.6,"end":3779.6,"text":"我今天"},{"start":3779.25,"end":3781.25,"text":"分析這個公司在之所以能夠有吸引力"},{"start":3782.73,"end":3784.73,"text":"就是有人的關係"},{"start":3784.73,"end":3786.73,"text":"跟這個物也就是我們的"},{"start":3786.73,"end":3788.73,"text":"我們的"},{"start":3787.66,"end":3789.66,"text":"所以投資人認為我來投資這個有利可圖"},{"start":3789.66,"end":3791.66,"text":"所以他來投資"},{"start":3796.75,"end":3798.75,"text":"您走旁邊"},{"start":3799.25,"end":3801.25,"text":"我尊重委員的質詢和說法"},{"start":3801.25,"end":3803.25,"text":"但是道理或事實"},{"start":3803.25,"end":3805.25,"text":"只有一個"},{"start":3805.25,"end":3807.25,"text":"邏輯怎麼樣是對的也只有一種"},{"start":3807.25,"end":3809.25,"text":"我尊重您"},{"start":3809.25,"end":3811.25,"text":"至少還可以三次記者會跟各位公佈"},{"start":3811.25,"end":3813.25,"text":"裡面的事實"},{"start":3814.39,"end":3816.39,"text":"最後一疊資料"},{"start":3816.46,"end":3818.46,"text":"我親自讀裡面至少還有三個問題"},{"start":3818.46,"end":3820.46,"text":"我要跟你請教"},{"start":3821.44,"end":3823.44,"text":"謝謝我們董事長"},{"start":3823.44,"end":3825.44,"text":"謝謝部長"},{"start":3832.5,"end":3834.5,"text":"我們下一位請黃捷委員發言質詢"},{"start":3839.85,"end":3841.85,"text":"謝謝主席我們請劉部長"},{"start":3848.09,"end":3850.09,"text":"好部長好"},{"start":3850.09,"end":3852.09,"text":"可以先跟您請教大家都很關心"},{"start":3852.09,"end":3854.09,"text":"這個社宅的目標的戶數"},{"start":3854.09,"end":3856.09,"text":"到底有沒有跳票"},{"start":3856.09,"end":3858.09,"text":"因為其實大家知道說蔡政府"},{"start":3858.09,"end":3860.09,"text":"原本是12加8"},{"start":3860.09,"end":3862.09,"text":"12萬戶的社宅直接"},{"start":3862.09,"end":3864.09,"text":"新建加上8萬的包租代管"},{"start":3864.09,"end":3866.09,"text":"那目前已經達標了"},{"start":3866.09,"end":3868.09,"text":"那在賴政府時期也希望說"},{"start":3868.09,"end":3870.09,"text":"這個直接新建的目標"},{"start":3870.09,"end":3872.09,"text":"是13萬戶但是"},{"start":3872.09,"end":3874.09,"text":"民間有傳出說"},{"start":3874.09,"end":3876.09,"text":"我們13萬戶會變成3萬戶是"},{"start":3876.09,"end":3878.09,"text":"真的嗎"},{"start":3878.09,"end":3880.09,"text":"報告委員這就是我們今天"},{"start":3880.09,"end":3882.09,"text":"特別針對媒體要做澄清的部分"},{"start":3882.09,"end":3884.09,"text":"賴總統他現在"},{"start":3884.09,"end":3886.09,"text":"所同意的這個13萬戶"},{"start":3886.09,"end":3888.09,"text":"我剛有提過"},{"start":3888.09,"end":3890.09,"text":"直接新辦會改成多元新辦"},{"start":3890.09,"end":3892.09,"text":"但是13萬戶就是13萬戶"},{"start":3892.09,"end":3894.09,"text":"但是這需要時間"},{"start":3894.09,"end":3896.09,"text":"所謂的多元新辦我剛有特別提到了"},{"start":3896.09,"end":3898.09,"text":"因為我們未來呢"},{"start":3898.09,"end":3900.09,"text":"增加社宅的部分包括從都更"},{"start":3900.09,"end":3902.09,"text":"或者其他的部分都會增加在"},{"start":3902.09,"end":3904.09,"text":"婚育宅上面"},{"start":3904.09,"end":3906.09,"text":"這是一個改變"},{"start":3906.09,"end":3908.09,"text":"那這中間的改變還包括我們在去年的時候"},{"start":3908.09,"end":3910.09,"text":"修正了住宅法"},{"start":3910.09,"end":3912.09,"text":"所以我們根據修的法律還有根據我們提的政策"},{"start":3912.09,"end":3914.09,"text":"但是13萬戶的部分"},{"start":3914.09,"end":3916.09,"text":"在未來的這個到"},{"start":3916.09,"end":3918.09,"text":"如果賴總統是有8年任期的話"},{"start":3918.09,"end":3920.09,"text":"這個目標是沒有變化的"},{"start":3920.09,"end":3922.09,"text":"好謝謝部長的說明"},{"start":3922.09,"end":3924.09,"text":"所以13萬戶目標不變"},{"start":3925.22,"end":3927.22,"text":"那這個13萬戶的數字是從何而來呢"},{"start":3927.22,"end":3929.22,"text":"13萬戶的部分是"},{"start":3929.22,"end":3931.22,"text":"我們在這個第一個"},{"start":3931.22,"end":3933.22,"text":"我們要抱怨的時候呢"},{"start":3933.22,"end":3935.22,"text":"他是一個正在炒泥的炒案"},{"start":3935.22,"end":3937.22,"text":"那正在炒泥的炒案當中"},{"start":3937.22,"end":3939.22,"text":"國土署的同仁"},{"start":3939.22,"end":3941.22,"text":"會跟地方縣市政府來討論"},{"start":3941.22,"end":3943.22,"text":"就是說你們現在"},{"start":3943.22,"end":3945.22,"text":"有沒有盤點適合的土地"},{"start":3945.22,"end":3947.22,"text":"或者是整開整體開發計畫"},{"start":3947.22,"end":3949.22,"text":"或者是都市更新等等這些"},{"start":3949.22,"end":3951.22,"text":"所以才會有這樣子的"},{"start":3951.22,"end":3953.22,"text":"13萬戶的出現"},{"start":3953.22,"end":3955.22,"text":"那今天我可以請國土署長"},{"start":3955.22,"end":3957.22,"text":"跟您做一個簡單的回報"},{"start":3957.96,"end":3959.96,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":3959.96,"end":3961.96,"text":"那我們每次在做這些社宅的數量盤點"},{"start":3961.96,"end":3963.96,"text":"一定會跟地方政府做一些開會"},{"start":3963.96,"end":3965.96,"text":"那我們會先針對優先土地"},{"start":3965.96,"end":3967.96,"text":"這邊沒有問題的部分"},{"start":3967.96,"end":3969.96,"text":"會寫在這個抱怨計畫"},{"start":3969.96,"end":3971.96,"text":"抱怨計畫這個部分是"},{"start":3971.96,"end":3973.96,"text":"每年都會滾動式檢討"},{"start":3973.96,"end":3975.96,"text":"所以我們依照目前既有的"},{"start":3975.96,"end":3977.96,"text":"這個用地的存量"},{"start":3977.96,"end":3979.96,"text":"跟地方政府協調大概目前的"},{"start":3979.96,"end":3981.96,"text":"一個可以做的量"},{"start":3981.96,"end":3983.96,"text":"這個叫第一階段"},{"start":3983.96,"end":3985.96,"text":"3萬戶叫第一階段他是可以做的"},{"start":3985.96,"end":3987.96,"text":"滾動檢討如果地方政府再繼續盤點"},{"start":3987.96,"end":3989.96,"text":"一些整開區的土地再提供出來"},{"start":3989.96,"end":3991.96,"text":"我們會再去核心的案子"},{"start":3991.96,"end":3993.96,"text":"所以這個部分其實是這樣在進行"},{"start":3993.96,"end":3995.96,"text":"所以他會分很多階段"},{"start":3995.96,"end":3997.96,"text":"好謝謝署長說明其實部長跟署長"},{"start":3997.96,"end":3999.96,"text":"已經講的非常清楚了"},{"start":3999.96,"end":4001.96,"text":"第一個13萬戶目標不變"},{"start":4001.96,"end":4003.96,"text":"第二個3萬戶是目前"},{"start":4003.96,"end":4005.96,"text":"第一階段已經盤點出來"},{"start":4005.96,"end":4007.96,"text":"可以做的那剩下的"},{"start":4007.96,"end":4009.96,"text":"10萬戶是希望說地方"},{"start":4009.96,"end":4011.96,"text":"政府一定要配合嘛"},{"start":4011.96,"end":4013.96,"text":"我們陸續配合陸續滾動式的檢討"},{"start":4013.96,"end":4015.96,"text":"找到更多土地之後"},{"start":4015.96,"end":4017.96,"text":"陸續的達到13萬戶的目標"},{"start":4017.96,"end":4019.96,"text":"是不是以上"},{"start":4019.96,"end":4021.96,"text":"除了地方政府配合之外也要拜託大院"},{"start":4021.96,"end":4023.96,"text":"能夠支持我們有關於"},{"start":4023.96,"end":4025.96,"text":"榮獎條例裡面的三個法案"},{"start":4025.96,"end":4027.96,"text":"那這個法案如果通過的話"},{"start":4027.96,"end":4029.96,"text":"也會刺激比較多的其他民間"},{"start":4029.96,"end":4031.96,"text":"業者來蓋比較多"},{"start":4031.96,"end":4033.96,"text":"是以婚禦宅為主的社會住宅"},{"start":4033.96,"end":4035.96,"text":"好謝謝部長的補充"},{"start":4035.96,"end":4037.96,"text":"那再來要請教這個租賃條例"},{"start":4037.96,"end":4039.96,"text":"因為其實去年我們租賃條例"},{"start":4039.96,"end":4041.96,"text":"修法的目標其實有三大"},{"start":4041.96,"end":4043.96,"text":"但是呢我們這一次"},{"start":4043.96,"end":4045.96,"text":"推出來的三大目標"},{"start":4045.96,"end":4047.96,"text":"好像只剩下其中一項"},{"start":4047.96,"end":4049.96,"text":"那去年目標是想說"},{"start":4049.96,"end":4051.96,"text":"第一個是保障三年的租期"},{"start":4051.96,"end":4053.96,"text":"第二個是限制"},{"start":4053.96,"end":4055.96,"text":"這個續約的租金的漲幅"},{"start":4055.96,"end":4057.96,"text":"第三個是強化租賃雙方"},{"start":4057.96,"end":4059.96,"text":"的權益的保障"},{"start":4059.96,"end":4061.96,"text":"可是目前看起來是不是只剩下"},{"start":4061.96,"end":4065.96,"text":"強化租賃雙方的權益保障呢"},{"start":4065.96,"end":4067.96,"text":"那我必須在這邊要表達"},{"start":4067.96,"end":4069.96,"text":"很多青年朋友的聲音喔"},{"start":4069.96,"end":4071.96,"text":"因為他們其實很多"},{"start":4071.96,"end":4073.96,"text":"居住議題的團體跟青年朋友"},{"start":4073.96,"end":4075.96,"text":"都表達非常的擔憂"},{"start":4075.96,"end":4077.96,"text":"因為覺得說我們這個"},{"start":4077.96,"end":4079.96,"text":"版本如果先上路是不是變成說"},{"start":4079.96,"end":4081.96,"text":"房東先房客後"},{"start":4081.96,"end":4083.96,"text":"會不會變成你們所謂的說"},{"start":4083.96,"end":4085.96,"text":"有共識的部分是跟房東的共識"},{"start":4085.96,"end":4087.96,"text":"而不是跟房客的共識呢"},{"start":4089.96,"end":4091.96,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":4091.96,"end":4093.96,"text":"我知道委員非常關心年輕人"},{"start":4093.96,"end":4095.96,"text":"尤其是單的"},{"start":4095.96,"end":4097.96,"text":"這個房客之間的權益的部分"},{"start":4097.96,"end":4099.96,"text":"所以我們一開始跟很多"},{"start":4099.96,"end":4101.96,"text":"包括委員在內或者是其他的團體的時候"},{"start":4101.96,"end":4103.96,"text":"確實是以房客的權益為優先"},{"start":4103.96,"end":4105.96,"text":"但是我們在送院"},{"start":4105.96,"end":4107.96,"text":"或者是說在很多團體溝通的過程當中"},{"start":4107.96,"end":4109.96,"text":"我們也知道這個是需要"},{"start":4109.96,"end":4111.96,"text":"大院同意的"},{"start":4111.96,"end":4113.96,"text":"那在大院同意的過程當中"},{"start":4113.96,"end":4115.96,"text":"如果我們把這個修法的部分"},{"start":4115.96,"end":4117.96,"text":"就直接推出來"},{"start":4117.96,"end":4119.96,"text":"那到大院裡面恐怕又引起更多的爭端"},{"start":4119.96,"end":4121.96,"text":"所以我們採取比較保守的做法"},{"start":4121.96,"end":4123.96,"text":"就是能夠過的我們先把它推出來"},{"start":4123.96,"end":4125.96,"text":"那這個可能跟委員的期待會有落差"},{"start":4125.96,"end":4127.96,"text":"那相關的那個修正的修法方向"},{"start":4127.96,"end":4129.96,"text":"我是不是請我們地政司長"},{"start":4129.96,"end":4131.96,"text":"跟委員做個簡單的報告"},{"start":4133.33,"end":4135.33,"text":"委員好"},{"start":4137.43,"end":4139.43,"text":"那第一個部分的話"},{"start":4139.43,"end":4141.43,"text":"我們現在的話因為就陳盧部長說"},{"start":4141.43,"end":4143.43,"text":"我們已經有召開很多會議來做一個討論"},{"start":4143.43,"end":4145.43,"text":"那現在的話是"},{"start":4145.43,"end":4147.43,"text":"先就有共識的部分來先送出來"},{"start":4147.43,"end":4149.43,"text":"那有共識的部分"},{"start":4149.43,"end":4151.43,"text":"當然也有包含到保障房客的部分"},{"start":4151.43,"end":4153.43,"text":"例如我們現在年輕學生"},{"start":4153.43,"end":4155.43,"text":"或年輕人非常關心的"},{"start":4155.43,"end":4157.43,"text":"拒絕租補的問題"},{"start":4157.43,"end":4159.43,"text":"那些相關的條文"},{"start":4159.43,"end":4161.43,"text":"我們都有納在裡面"},{"start":4161.43,"end":4163.43,"text":"有直接處罰的規定"},{"start":4163.43,"end":4165.43,"text":"是我知道嘛"},{"start":4165.43,"end":4167.43,"text":"這個房東不可以以任何形式"},{"start":4167.43,"end":4169.43,"text":"禁止租客申請租補"},{"start":4169.43,"end":4171.43,"text":"那還有簽戶籍的部分"},{"start":4171.43,"end":4173.43,"text":"也都是要允許的"},{"start":4173.43,"end":4175.43,"text":"那當然還有最後這個租罷條款"},{"start":4175.43,"end":4177.43,"text":"其實是比較是保障房東的權益"},{"start":4177.43,"end":4179.43,"text":"但是後面的這個"},{"start":4179.43,"end":4181.43,"text":"租期的部分還有租金的漲幅"},{"start":4181.43,"end":4183.43,"text":"我不知道說現在"},{"start":4183.43,"end":4185.43,"text":"障礙在哪裡"},{"start":4185.43,"end":4187.43,"text":"那接下來會怎麼去陸續推動呢"},{"start":4187.43,"end":4189.43,"text":"因為其實這兩款"},{"start":4189.43,"end":4191.43,"text":"對於年輕人來說是非常非常在意的"},{"start":4191.43,"end":4193.43,"text":"接下來的部分"},{"start":4193.43,"end":4195.43,"text":"我們也會跟大家來繼續做一個"},{"start":4195.43,"end":4197.43,"text":"溝通討論"},{"start":4197.43,"end":4199.43,"text":"就是這一次沒有送出來的部分"},{"start":4199.43,"end":4201.43,"text":"包含現在條例裡面"},{"start":4201.43,"end":4203.43,"text":"還有一些要跟司法院討論的東西"},{"start":4203.43,"end":4205.43,"text":"那這個部分我們都會以後"},{"start":4205.43,"end":4207.43,"text":"都會再持續進行"},{"start":4207.68,"end":4209.68,"text":"好那我還是在這邊再一次的表達這個"},{"start":4209.68,"end":4211.68,"text":"因為其實青年團體"},{"start":4211.68,"end":4213.68,"text":"第一時間就有出來"},{"start":4213.68,"end":4215.68,"text":"不管是開記者會然後反應給我知道"},{"start":4215.68,"end":4217.68,"text":"他們真的非常關心"},{"start":4217.68,"end":4219.68,"text":"不希望說到時候租賃條例裡面"},{"start":4219.68,"end":4221.68,"text":"本來說好的三大方向"},{"start":4221.68,"end":4223.68,"text":"只剩下對房東比較有利的"},{"start":4223.68,"end":4225.68,"text":"我希望這個是橫評啦"},{"start":4225.68,"end":4227.68,"text":"兩邊的權益都要照顧到"},{"start":4227.68,"end":4229.68,"text":"這個也是我們當初想要修租賃條例的"},{"start":4229.68,"end":4231.68,"text":"這個精神跟目標嘛"},{"start":4231.68,"end":4233.68,"text":"我們會持續再溝通"},{"start":4233.68,"end":4235.68,"text":"跟大家討論"},{"start":4235.68,"end":4237.68,"text":"謝謝那最後一點時間是不是請"},{"start":4237.68,"end":4239.68,"text":"花董事長在針對這個"},{"start":4239.68,"end":4241.68,"text":"召集的部分多做一下說明"},{"start":4241.68,"end":4243.68,"text":"因為我最擔心的是說"},{"start":4243.68,"end":4245.68,"text":"畢竟召集還是承辦我們"},{"start":4245.68,"end":4247.68,"text":"包租代管裡面"},{"start":4247.68,"end":4249.68,"text":"其中很大一部分嘛"},{"start":4249.68,"end":4251.68,"text":"那我不希望說因為單一企業"},{"start":4251.68,"end":4253.68,"text":"他自己經營管理的問題"},{"start":4253.68,"end":4255.68,"text":"影響到這一些我們"},{"start":4255.68,"end":4257.68,"text":"政策的目標還有這些相關"},{"start":4257.68,"end":4259.68,"text":"租客你剛剛說不是"},{"start":4259.68,"end":4261.68,"text":"2.8萬戶那總共是"},{"start":4261.68,"end":4263.68,"text":"多少戶數受到影響"},{"start":4263.68,"end":4265.68,"text":"那他們你們都有"},{"start":4265.68,"end":4267.68,"text":"陸續的協助了嗎"},{"start":4268.07,"end":4270.07,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":4270.07,"end":4272.07,"text":"我想兩家公司都在並說比較好"},{"start":4272.07,"end":4274.07,"text":"第一個是寄居蟹公司"},{"start":4274.07,"end":4276.07,"text":"他現在服務案件有6600個案子"},{"start":4276.07,"end":4278.07,"text":"那從前天開始我們"},{"start":4278.07,"end":4280.07,"text":"已經開始啟動對寄居蟹"},{"start":4280.07,"end":4282.07,"text":"的服務案件轉嫌到其他的"},{"start":4282.07,"end":4284.07,"text":"受財包租代管的業者"},{"start":4284.07,"end":4286.07,"text":"手上目前有90家"},{"start":4286.07,"end":4288.07,"text":"業者可以承接"},{"start":4288.07,"end":4290.07,"text":"那到今天到現在為止"},{"start":4290.07,"end":4292.07,"text":"大概已經有400案"},{"start":4292.07,"end":4294.07,"text":"已經開始處理中"},{"start":4294.07,"end":4296.07,"text":"房東已經保釋意見"},{"start":4296.07,"end":4298.07,"text":"意願了那我們開始處理中"},{"start":4298.07,"end":4300.07,"text":"那預計應該在一個月"},{"start":4300.07,"end":4302.07,"text":"之內可以把寄居蟹的"},{"start":4302.07,"end":4304.07,"text":"這6600案把它處理完畢"},{"start":4304.07,"end":4306.07,"text":"避免其他的衍生的問題"},{"start":4306.07,"end":4308.07,"text":"造機有兩部分"},{"start":4308.07,"end":4310.07,"text":"一部分大概有8500件"},{"start":4310.07,"end":4312.07,"text":"左右是中央政府"},{"start":4312.07,"end":4314.07,"text":"的社財包租代管"},{"start":4314.07,"end":4316.07,"text":"另外有7000多件"},{"start":4316.07,"end":4318.07,"text":"縣市政府就是六都"},{"start":4318.07,"end":4320.07,"text":"縣市政府的社財包租"},{"start":4320.07,"end":4322.07,"text":"代管案件那因為"},{"start":4322.07,"end":4324.07,"text":"這一個禮拜以來"},{"start":4324.07,"end":4326.07,"text":"造機公司內部大家"},{"start":4326.07,"end":4328.07,"text":"從雨晴也看到董事長"},{"start":4328.07,"end":4330.07,"text":"有經過幾次的輪換"},{"start":4330.07,"end":4332.07,"text":"那前天他們又重新開了"},{"start":4332.07,"end":4334.07,"text":"董事會選出了"},{"start":4334.07,"end":4336.07,"text":"代理總經理"},{"start":4336.07,"end":4338.07,"text":"那已經開始針對他們公司內部"},{"start":4338.07,"end":4340.07,"text":"的帳戶財務"},{"start":4340.07,"end":4342.07,"text":"那我們大概一方面"},{"start":4342.07,"end":4344.07,"text":"有跟他直接聯繫去了解"},{"start":4344.07,"end":4346.07,"text":"一方面透過媒體了解"},{"start":4346.07,"end":4348.07,"text":"那從現在的了解"},{"start":4348.07,"end":4350.07,"text":"是昨天他們本來被警示"},{"start":4350.07,"end":4352.07,"text":"的帳戶應該已經被解凍了"},{"start":4352.07,"end":4354.07,"text":"那今天他們會跟銀行團"},{"start":4354.07,"end":4356.07,"text":"開會協商"},{"start":4356.07,"end":4358.07,"text":"所有的負債融資"},{"start":4358.07,"end":4360.07,"text":"重新配置"},{"start":4360.07,"end":4362.07,"text":"那預計他們應該是8月27號"},{"start":4362.07,"end":4364.07,"text":"會開臨時股東會"},{"start":4364.07,"end":4366.07,"text":"重新選取新的董監事"},{"start":4370.01,"end":4372.01,"text":"所以說我們會樂觀的"},{"start":4372.01,"end":4374.01,"text":"看待最近的發展"},{"start":4374.01,"end":4376.01,"text":"那如果說順利的話"},{"start":4376.01,"end":4378.01,"text":"造機公司如果在8月底的董事"},{"start":4378.01,"end":4380.01,"text":"會能夠把新的董監事"},{"start":4380.01,"end":4382.01,"text":"選取完畢而且穩定下來"},{"start":4382.01,"end":4384.01,"text":"其實這家公司就沒有問題"},{"start":4384.01,"end":4386.01,"text":"它就可以再回復到正常的運作"},{"start":4386.01,"end":4388.01,"text":"底下那這部分我們每天都會"},{"start":4388.01,"end":4390.01,"text":"盯著他們的進度來觀察"},{"start":4390.01,"end":4392.01,"text":"那繼續去的案子我們每天"},{"start":4392.01,"end":4394.01,"text":"也都會有新的轉嫌"},{"start":4394.01,"end":4396.01,"text":"的成績會出來"},{"start":4396.01,"end":4398.01,"text":"所以這個部分相對起來目前"},{"start":4398.01,"end":4400.01,"text":"比較稍微放心但是我們還是會很警惕的看"},{"start":4400.01,"end":4402.01,"text":"好謝謝黃董事長"},{"start":4402.01,"end":4404.01,"text":"這個要再拜託我不希望說我們包租代管的"},{"start":4404.01,"end":4406.01,"text":"政績會因為單一公司"},{"start":4406.01,"end":4408.01,"text":"他自己的經營管理的問題"},{"start":4408.01,"end":4410.01,"text":"受到影響"},{"start":4410.01,"end":4412.01,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":4416.76,"end":4418.76,"text":"我們現在會請張宏祿委員發言諮詢"},{"start":4428.06,"end":4430.06,"text":"我先請部長"},{"start":4435.41,"end":4437.41,"text":"張宏祿委員"},{"start":4437.41,"end":4439.41,"text":"部長就剛剛"},{"start":4439.41,"end":4441.41,"text":"像趙姬的這個事情"},{"start":4441.41,"end":4443.41,"text":"其實"},{"start":4443.41,"end":4445.41,"text":"除了這個包租代管"},{"start":4445.41,"end":4447.41,"text":"是我們政府在推"},{"start":4447.41,"end":4449.41,"text":"然後現在其實現在運行的"},{"start":4449.41,"end":4451.41,"text":"也算不錯"},{"start":4451.41,"end":4453.41,"text":"那部長"},{"start":4452.7,"end":4454.7,"text":"像這個案子啊"},{"start":4455.42,"end":4457.42,"text":"未來有沒有可能"},{"start":4457.42,"end":4459.42,"text":"像我們旅行業者"},{"start":4459.42,"end":4461.42,"text":"這個旅行業者有平保協會"},{"start":4461.42,"end":4463.42,"text":"有什麼"},{"start":4463.42,"end":4465.42,"text":"如果這些旅行業者"},{"start":4465.42,"end":4467.42,"text":"出了問題或什麼"},{"start":4467.42,"end":4469.42,"text":"其他旅行社的業者"},{"start":4469.42,"end":4471.42,"text":"他可以馬上出面"},{"start":4471.42,"end":4473.42,"text":"承接"},{"start":4473.42,"end":4475.42,"text":"這個業務"},{"start":4475.42,"end":4477.42,"text":"才不會造成消費者"},{"start":4477.42,"end":4479.42,"text":"的損失"},{"start":4479.42,"end":4481.42,"text":"那我們可不可以朝這個方向"},{"start":4481.42,"end":4483.42,"text":"來做"},{"start":4482.62,"end":4484.62,"text":"謝謝委員的指教"},{"start":4484.62,"end":4486.62,"text":"我想委員提出的是非常好的建議"},{"start":4486.62,"end":4488.62,"text":"就是由這次的案件裡面"},{"start":4488.62,"end":4490.62,"text":"我們發現到說"},{"start":4490.62,"end":4492.62,"text":"第一個包租代管業者"},{"start":4492.62,"end":4494.62,"text":"在我們的租賃條例裡面"},{"start":4494.62,"end":4496.62,"text":"他確實是租賃服務業"},{"start":4496.62,"end":4498.62,"text":"那這個租賃服務業我們以前在"},{"start":4498.62,"end":4500.62,"text":"訂定的時候並沒有把這個所謂的"},{"start":4500.62,"end":4502.62,"text":"防避的措施把它提供出來"},{"start":4502.62,"end":4504.62,"text":"那由這次的案件當中"},{"start":4504.62,"end":4506.62,"text":"我們會從這個地方來檢討"},{"start":4506.62,"end":4508.62,"text":"那剛剛張委員有特別提到說"},{"start":4508.62,"end":4510.62,"text":"仿效向旅行業者這個平保機制"},{"start":4510.62,"end":4512.62,"text":"共同來承擔"},{"start":4512.62,"end":4514.62,"text":"出現這個包租代管業者"},{"start":4514.62,"end":4516.62,"text":"對消費者之間的一些若干"},{"start":4516.62,"end":4518.62,"text":"這個權益上的損失的話"},{"start":4518.62,"end":4520.62,"text":"我們可以朝這個努力的方向來處理"},{"start":4520.62,"end":4522.62,"text":"那另外呢我們"},{"start":4522.62,"end":4524.62,"text":"這個地政司也可以跟"},{"start":4524.62,"end":4526.62,"text":"這個租約的接續"},{"start":4526.62,"end":4528.62,"text":"或者是業者的退場機制"},{"start":4528.62,"end":4530.62,"text":"也可以訂定相關的處理機制"},{"start":4530.78,"end":4532.78,"text":"對啦反正這個方向"},{"start":4532.78,"end":4534.78,"text":"部長也認同嘛"},{"start":4534.78,"end":4536.78,"text":"那未來我們就可以大聲的"},{"start":4536.78,"end":4538.78,"text":"跟全國的人民講"},{"start":4538.78,"end":4540.78,"text":"只要你是包租代管"},{"start":4542.38,"end":4544.38,"text":"講法令大家不一定聽得懂"},{"start":4544.38,"end":4546.38,"text":"但是就是像旅行社平保協會這樣"},{"start":4546.38,"end":4548.38,"text":"你也不用擔心"},{"start":4548.38,"end":4550.38,"text":"對不對 因為講句比較簡單的喔"},{"start":4552.05,"end":4554.05,"text":"房子在那邊"},{"start":4554.05,"end":4556.05,"text":"房東也在那邊"},{"start":4556.05,"end":4558.05,"text":"租客也在那邊"},{"start":4558.05,"end":4560.05,"text":"就是中間這個橋樑"},{"start":4560.05,"end":4562.05,"text":"有獲得保障而已"},{"start":4562.05,"end":4564.05,"text":"這一個風險"},{"start":4564.05,"end":4566.05,"text":"比這個旅行社的業者"},{"start":4566.05,"end":4568.05,"text":"有的要直接拿錢出來"},{"start":4568.05,"end":4570.05,"text":"其實這個還比較"},{"start":4570.05,"end":4572.05,"text":"我個人認為"},{"start":4572.05,"end":4574.05,"text":"手續複雜而已"},{"start":4574.05,"end":4576.05,"text":"但金錢的損失還不如這個"},{"start":4576.05,"end":4578.05,"text":"旅行社業者的損失大"},{"start":4578.05,"end":4580.05,"text":"所以我覺得如果是"},{"start":4580.05,"end":4582.05,"text":"我們就可以大聲講"},{"start":4582.05,"end":4584.05,"text":"然後讓未來這個包租代管"},{"start":4584.05,"end":4586.05,"text":"房東也放心"},{"start":4586.05,"end":4588.05,"text":"租客也放心"},{"start":4588.05,"end":4590.05,"text":"對不對 部長 是不是這樣"},{"start":4590.05,"end":4592.05,"text":"未來不管是說在"},{"start":4592.05,"end":4594.05,"text":"我們行政措施上面"},{"start":4594.05,"end":4596.05,"text":"或者是自助的建立"},{"start":4596.05,"end":4598.05,"text":"我們會朝著委員所提供的方向來努力"},{"start":4598.05,"end":4600.05,"text":"好 那另外"},{"start":4600.93,"end":4602.93,"text":"這個部長 這個"},{"start":4602.93,"end":4604.93,"text":"租金補貼 我們這個"},{"start":4604.93,"end":4606.93,"text":"違建戶這一個部分"},{"start":4606.93,"end":4608.93,"text":"未來"},{"start":4608.93,"end":4610.93,"text":"這個寬限期是到年底"},{"start":4610.93,"end":4612.93,"text":"我不知道這個"},{"start":4612.93,"end":4614.93,"text":"我們現在處理的怎麼樣"},{"start":4614.93,"end":4616.93,"text":"尤其委員所"},{"start":4616.93,"end":4618.93,"text":"關心的類似"},{"start":4618.93,"end":4620.93,"text":"頂加這樣的部分"},{"start":4620.93,"end":4622.93,"text":"我是請我們的國土署"},{"start":4622.93,"end":4624.93,"text":"跟委員來做一下簡單的數據上"},{"start":4624.93,"end":4626.93,"text":"不用啦 就說"},{"start":4626.93,"end":4628.93,"text":"有什麼處理就好了啦"},{"start":4628.93,"end":4630.93,"text":"我們這個目前寬限期到今年底"},{"start":4630.93,"end":4632.93,"text":"那因為有一些要"},{"start":4632.93,"end":4634.93,"text":"一些社會單位去關懷的"},{"start":4634.93,"end":4636.93,"text":"地方政府去關懷 目前還在持續"},{"start":4636.93,"end":4638.93,"text":"那但是我們接到地方政府的"},{"start":4638.93,"end":4640.93,"text":"一些反應 他是希望"},{"start":4640.93,"end":4642.93,"text":"有些還是需要再繼續去幫忙"},{"start":4642.93,"end":4644.93,"text":"他們是希望到明年"},{"start":4644.93,"end":4646.93,"text":"底 所以我們目前也在"},{"start":4646.93,"end":4648.93,"text":"研議中 這個部分還沒有簽到"},{"start":4648.93,"end":4650.93,"text":"部長那邊 我們有在研議中"},{"start":4650.93,"end":4652.93,"text":"好 我記得"},{"start":4652.93,"end":4654.93,"text":"我之前就有說過"},{"start":4654.93,"end":4656.93,"text":"這個問題我也支持"},{"start":4656.93,"end":4658.93,"text":"但很多鄉下地方"},{"start":4658.93,"end":4660.93,"text":"尤其是偏鄉"},{"start":4660.93,"end":4662.93,"text":"你記得我之前有講"},{"start":4662.93,"end":4664.93,"text":"你要叫他現在去找一個合法的地方"},{"start":4664.93,"end":4666.93,"text":"他可能找不到喔"},{"start":4666.93,"end":4668.93,"text":"鄉下都是"},{"start":4668.93,"end":4670.93,"text":"你要 有的"},{"start":4670.93,"end":4672.93,"text":"有的房子可能也比"},{"start":4673.6,"end":4675.6,"text":"這個政府成立還久 但他可能"},{"start":4675.6,"end":4677.6,"text":"他就是違建"},{"start":4677.43,"end":4679.43,"text":"這個問題啦 所以"},{"start":4679.43,"end":4681.43,"text":"我也覺得啦 如果說"},{"start":4681.43,"end":4683.43,"text":"還有一個寬限 我覺得啦"},{"start":4683.43,"end":4685.43,"text":"這個部長"},{"start":4685.7,"end":4687.7,"text":"如果啊 在都會區"},{"start":4687.7,"end":4689.7,"text":"跟這個"},{"start":4689.7,"end":4691.7,"text":"郊區 我覺得啦"},{"start":4691.7,"end":4693.7,"text":"我們是不是應該有不同的標準來處理"},{"start":4693.7,"end":4695.7,"text":"然後把它處理好"},{"start":4695.7,"end":4697.7,"text":"謝謝委員 委員對於這個"},{"start":4697.7,"end":4699.7,"text":"弱勢的家庭 尤其是"},{"start":4699.7,"end":4701.7,"text":"委員也提到 會住在"},{"start":4701.7,"end":4703.7,"text":"頂加的人可能他在經濟上相對的"},{"start":4703.7,"end":4705.7,"text":"弱勢 所以我們本來就有一年的"},{"start":4705.7,"end":4707.7,"text":"寬限 其實我們內政部跟衛福部"},{"start":4707.7,"end":4709.7,"text":"從社會福利的角度或是社會"},{"start":4709.7,"end":4711.7,"text":"救助的角度來處理這一塊"},{"start":4711.7,"end":4713.7,"text":"那現在呢 我們去盤點"},{"start":4713.7,"end":4715.7,"text":"出來 大概總共有"},{"start":4715.7,"end":4717.7,"text":"全台灣 全台灣"},{"start":4717.7,"end":4719.7,"text":"集合出來 大概有四百多戶"},{"start":4719.7,"end":4721.7,"text":"四百多戶的話 會列為專案"},{"start":4721.7,"end":4723.7,"text":"的列館 那如果像委員"},{"start":4723.7,"end":4725.7,"text":"剛剛所說的 第一個偏鄉"},{"start":4725.7,"end":4727.7,"text":"第二個呢 他可能在居住上面呢"},{"start":4727.7,"end":4729.7,"text":"沒有其他的是屬於安全"},{"start":4729.7,"end":4731.7,"text":"上面的顧慮的話 我們大概會"},{"start":4731.7,"end":4733.7,"text":"專案來輔導 來處理"},{"start":4733.7,"end":4735.7,"text":"那這個這個 只要地方縣市政府"},{"start":4735.7,"end":4737.7,"text":"或者是衛福部不會太反對的話"},{"start":4737.7,"end":4739.7,"text":"我們會樂觀啟程來繼續協助他們"},{"start":4739.7,"end":4741.7,"text":"好"},{"start":4741.7,"end":4743.7,"text":"那另外啦"},{"start":4743.93,"end":4745.93,"text":"這個啦"},{"start":4745.35,"end":4747.35,"text":"部長 我們啦"},{"start":4747.35,"end":4749.35,"text":"這個啦 這個"},{"start":4749.35,"end":4751.35,"text":"社宅的興建啦"},{"start":4751.35,"end":4753.35,"text":"我們這個啦 預計"},{"start":4753.35,"end":4755.35,"text":"這個二十五萬戶 這個目標"},{"start":4755.35,"end":4757.35,"text":"應該沒有改變吧"},{"start":4758.58,"end":4760.58,"text":"總統加在一起 這個目標"},{"start":4760.58,"end":4762.58,"text":"目標一定是沒有改變的"},{"start":4762.58,"end":4764.58,"text":"沒有改變啦齁 對不對"},{"start":4765.51,"end":4767.51,"text":"現在啊齁"},{"start":4767.51,"end":4769.51,"text":"有一些聲音說什麼變了"},{"start":4769.51,"end":4771.51,"text":"變了什麼三萬什麼 我個人看"},{"start":4771.51,"end":4773.51,"text":"的資料啊 覺得不是"},{"start":4773.51,"end":4775.51,"text":"那個是現在"},{"start":4775.51,"end":4777.51,"text":"現階段可以馬上做跟地方"},{"start":4777.51,"end":4779.51,"text":"政府已經確定的"},{"start":4779.51,"end":4781.51,"text":"這個是三萬戶"},{"start":4781.51,"end":4783.51,"text":"這個就是已經"},{"start":4783.51,"end":4785.51,"text":"我們的要蓋的"},{"start":4785.51,"end":4787.51,"text":"但是這一個是早就 這個是"},{"start":4787.51,"end":4789.51,"text":"已經說可以定案 可以"},{"start":4789.51,"end":4791.51,"text":"趕快來實施的 這個是"},{"start":4791.51,"end":4793.51,"text":"應該是說 已經賣"},{"start":4793.51,"end":4795.51,"text":"出了三萬戶了 應該是這樣講吧"},{"start":4795.51,"end":4797.51,"text":"因為我們要跟地方"},{"start":4797.51,"end":4799.51,"text":"政府多做溝通 所以才會"},{"start":4799.51,"end":4801.51,"text":"出現這樣的數字"},{"start":4801.51,"end":4803.51,"text":"但是這個三萬戶就是地方"},{"start":4803.51,"end":4805.51,"text":"政府也都OK了 我們就是"},{"start":4805.51,"end":4807.51,"text":"馬上要賣出了 馬上"},{"start":4807.51,"end":4809.51,"text":"要開始了 等於說"},{"start":4809.51,"end":4811.51,"text":"我們的十幾萬 我們這三萬戶"},{"start":4811.51,"end":4813.51,"text":"已經要開始了 應該是這樣才對吧"},{"start":4813.51,"end":4815.51,"text":"這個就是跟地方政府都已經"},{"start":4815.51,"end":4817.51,"text":"溝通好 用地沒有問題 所以"},{"start":4817.51,"end":4819.51,"text":"我們要開始啟動所有的相關的"},{"start":4819.51,"end":4821.51,"text":"發包作業 設計作業等等"},{"start":4821.51,"end":4823.51,"text":"對嘛 所以應該是"},{"start":4823.51,"end":4825.51,"text":"我們的十幾萬戶目標不變"},{"start":4825.51,"end":4827.51,"text":"但是這三萬戶已經"},{"start":4827.51,"end":4829.51,"text":"已經要啟動了"},{"start":4829.51,"end":4831.51,"text":"對不對 應該是這樣子才"},{"start":4831.51,"end":4833.51,"text":"才對嘛 像我們到下半年"},{"start":4833.51,"end":4835.51,"text":"又會再跟地方政府檢討 那明年"},{"start":4835.51,"end":4837.51,"text":"後年有沒有再增加的 因為他們土地"},{"start":4837.51,"end":4839.51,"text":"會慢慢配合 整開區"},{"start":4839.51,"end":4841.51,"text":"或者是都市就要變更"},{"start":4841.51,"end":4843.51,"text":"會慢慢的去取得 所以這個部分"},{"start":4843.51,"end":4845.51,"text":"我們一直在檢討 對嘛"},{"start":4845.51,"end":4847.51,"text":"所以我說的沒錯嘛"},{"start":4847.51,"end":4849.51,"text":"這應該是第一階段已經要"},{"start":4849.51,"end":4851.51,"text":"來做的嘛 對不對"},{"start":4851.51,"end":4853.51,"text":"我覺得這個可能也要說清楚"},{"start":4853.51,"end":4855.51,"text":"讓大家了解啦"},{"start":4855.51,"end":4857.51,"text":"好不好 好"},{"start":4857.51,"end":4859.51,"text":"那就這樣 謝謝"},{"start":4861.87,"end":4863.87,"text":"好 謝謝張宏祿委員"},{"start":4863.87,"end":4865.87,"text":"現在請廖欣祥委員質詢"},{"start":4873.16,"end":4875.16,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請我們劉部長"},{"start":4879.34,"end":4881.34,"text":"周維豪 部長早安"},{"start":4881.34,"end":4883.34,"text":"前一陣子媒體受訪"},{"start":4883.34,"end":4885.34,"text":"有一段話 它當然媒體大概濃縮成"},{"start":4885.34,"end":4887.34,"text":"這一句啦 就是找到"},{"start":4887.34,"end":4889.34,"text":"空地就蓋 恐成空魚屋嘛"},{"start":4889.34,"end":4891.34,"text":"大概有這樣子的一個"},{"start":4891.34,"end":4893.34,"text":"言論發表沒錯嘛"},{"start":4893.48,"end":4895.48,"text":"我想不是這個意思"},{"start":4895.48,"end":4897.48,"text":"我覺得這個是有點"},{"start":4897.48,"end":4899.48,"text":"掐頭掐尾 我的意思"},{"start":4899.48,"end":4901.48,"text":"就是我們曾經在好多次的這個"},{"start":4901.48,"end":4903.48,"text":"住宅的公聽會裡面有提到"},{"start":4903.48,"end":4905.48,"text":"目前對於社會住宅需求"},{"start":4905.48,"end":4907.48,"text":"比較大的會集中在北北逃中"},{"start":4907.48,"end":4909.48,"text":"這幾個土地稀缺的地方"},{"start":4911.43,"end":4913.43,"text":"那因為在蔡總統的任內"},{"start":4913.43,"end":4915.43,"text":"全台灣的22個縣市都已經"},{"start":4915.43,"end":4917.43,"text":"蓋了這個社會住宅 那如果我們"},{"start":4917.43,"end":4919.43,"text":"再繼續在比較偏鄉的地區 因為偏鄉"},{"start":4919.43,"end":4921.43,"text":"地區要取得土地 或者變更"},{"start":4921.43,"end":4923.43,"text":"成住宅用地比較方便"},{"start":4923.43,"end":4925.43,"text":"那你蓋了以後呢 恐怕會變成另外一種"},{"start":4925.43,"end":4927.43,"text":"有可能造成這個"},{"start":4927.43,"end":4929.43,"text":"沒有辦法完成社會住宅的主要用地"},{"start":4929.43,"end":4931.43,"text":"它不只是一個數量"},{"start":4931.43,"end":4933.43,"text":"它還考慮到了它的地點"},{"start":4933.43,"end":4935.43,"text":"或其他的一些因素 需求"},{"start":4935.43,"end":4937.43,"text":"尤其是青年的部分"},{"start":4937.43,"end":4939.43,"text":"那我之前喔 這個跟你討論一下"},{"start":4939.43,"end":4941.43,"text":"這個案子嘛 可能你印象也非常的深"},{"start":4941.43,"end":4943.43,"text":"就是汐止的白袍湖的"},{"start":4943.43,"end":4945.43,"text":"社宅案"},{"start":4945.43,"end":4947.43,"text":"你應該有印象嘛 那在"},{"start":4947.43,"end":4949.43,"text":"去年度的預算的時候"},{"start":4949.43,"end":4951.43,"text":"我有針對連外道路去做一些刪減"},{"start":4951.43,"end":4953.43,"text":"那後來在追加預算的時候"},{"start":4953.43,"end":4955.43,"text":"我們內政部也把它"},{"start":4955.43,"end":4957.43,"text":"包裹回去了 那也同意了"},{"start":4957.43,"end":4959.43,"text":"所以預算算是"},{"start":4959.43,"end":4961.43,"text":"如數的交給"},{"start":4961.43,"end":4963.43,"text":"內政部了"},{"start":4963.43,"end":4965.43,"text":"但是這個案子它目前後來的一個"},{"start":4965.43,"end":4967.43,"text":"狀況"},{"start":4966.88,"end":4968.88,"text":"是不是有取消了情形"},{"start":4969.36,"end":4971.36,"text":"報告委員 目前"},{"start":4971.36,"end":4973.36,"text":"跟委員報告一下"},{"start":4973.36,"end":4975.36,"text":"那個114年度"},{"start":4975.36,"end":4977.36,"text":"就是上年度"},{"start":4977.36,"end":4979.36,"text":"預算在立法院刪減是0.21億元"},{"start":4979.36,"end":4981.36,"text":"然後115年度的話"},{"start":4981.36,"end":4983.36,"text":"我們在審查的時候"},{"start":4983.36,"end":4985.36,"text":"就全數刪減2.47億元"},{"start":4985.36,"end":4987.36,"text":"所以現在這個計畫"},{"start":4987.36,"end":4989.36,"text":"比較沒有辦法順利推動"},{"start":4989.36,"end":4991.36,"text":"那116年度我們也沒有"},{"start":4991.36,"end":4993.36,"text":"把它編列進去"},{"start":4993.36,"end":4995.36,"text":"就是說在去年度刪減之後"},{"start":4995.36,"end":4997.36,"text":"那是不是有追加預算回來"},{"start":4999.42,"end":5001.42,"text":"沒有嗎 沒有"},{"start":5002.98,"end":5004.98,"text":"麵包進去了"},{"start":5004.85,"end":5006.85,"text":"包到追加預算 這是一個公建計畫"},{"start":5006.85,"end":5008.85,"text":"是的"},{"start":5008.85,"end":5010.85,"text":"我請我們的 我們請那個"},{"start":5010.85,"end":5012.85,"text":"同仁跟您回應一下好嗎"},{"start":5013.02,"end":5015.02,"text":"跟委員報告 這個部分"},{"start":5015.02,"end":5017.02,"text":"我們到國發會那邊沒有同意"},{"start":5017.02,"end":5019.02,"text":"所以沒有包進去 所以國發會沒有同意"},{"start":5019.67,"end":5021.67,"text":"好 所以你們有提"},{"start":5021.67,"end":5023.67,"text":"但是不是立法院主黨 是國發會沒有同意"},{"start":5023.67,"end":5025.67,"text":"那因此目前這個案子"},{"start":5025.44,"end":5027.44,"text":"你們目前有要取消新建嗎"},{"start":5030.84,"end":5032.84,"text":"跟委員報告 我們目前是取消新建"},{"start":5032.84,"end":5034.84,"text":"你們目前是取消新建"},{"start":5034.84,"end":5036.84,"text":"那目前的程序"},{"start":5036.84,"end":5038.84,"text":"就是說我們內政部的程序"},{"start":5038.84,"end":5040.84,"text":"已經走完了 我們"},{"start":5041.35,"end":5043.35,"text":"決定在這個個案"},{"start":5043.35,"end":5045.35,"text":"去取消新建設計畫"},{"start":5045.35,"end":5047.35,"text":"那目前等待行政院核定"},{"start":5047.35,"end":5049.35,"text":"那我當然不是要批評這件事情"},{"start":5049.35,"end":5051.35,"text":"因為當初我有針對"},{"start":5051.35,"end":5053.35,"text":"設宅我就有立場 我就有我的立場"},{"start":5053.35,"end":5055.35,"text":"設宅不是只有追求數量"},{"start":5055.35,"end":5057.35,"text":"而是它的一個地點"},{"start":5057.35,"end":5059.35,"text":"或者是說它有一些設置的一些"},{"start":5059.35,"end":5061.35,"text":"學理在 並不是說"},{"start":5061.35,"end":5063.35,"text":"找到空地就蓋 如果說找到空地就蓋"},{"start":5063.35,"end":5065.35,"text":"那你要100萬戶設宅"},{"start":5065.35,"end":5067.35,"text":"那我想隨便一個人都能夠蓋"},{"start":5067.35,"end":5069.35,"text":"那我想今天這個"},{"start":5069.35,"end":5071.35,"text":"這個啦 我就自己做個計畫啦"},{"start":5071.35,"end":5073.35,"text":"畢竟可能當時有對我許多的一些批評"},{"start":5073.35,"end":5075.35,"text":"或許我的講話的"},{"start":5075.35,"end":5077.35,"text":"藝術沒有部長那麼高"},{"start":5077.35,"end":5079.35,"text":"類似的話從部長講出來"},{"start":5079.35,"end":5081.35,"text":"可能就沒人批評"},{"start":5081.35,"end":5083.35,"text":"然後我講出來的部分"},{"start":5083.35,"end":5085.35,"text":"指教的意見就比較多啦"},{"start":5085.35,"end":5087.35,"text":"那另外一個 同時我在同時間"},{"start":5087.35,"end":5089.35,"text":"我爭取另外一個設宅的計畫"},{"start":5089.35,"end":5091.35,"text":"在汐止的寶藏坑營區"},{"start":5092.52,"end":5094.52,"text":"那目前新北市政府"},{"start":5094.52,"end":5096.52,"text":"之前就有提出都市計畫的"},{"start":5096.52,"end":5098.52,"text":"變更 我支持這個案子"},{"start":5098.52,"end":5100.52,"text":"的原因是因為它已經"},{"start":5100.52,"end":5102.52,"text":"融入既有的一個生活圈跟市區"},{"start":5102.52,"end":5104.52,"text":"那旁邊也是基隆捷運的"},{"start":5104.52,"end":5106.52,"text":"預定地 它離現有的"},{"start":5106.52,"end":5108.52,"text":"基隆無獨火車站"},{"start":5108.52,"end":5110.52,"text":"也是非常近的距離 它是一個很"},{"start":5110.52,"end":5112.52,"text":"很好的一個設宅地點"},{"start":5112.52,"end":5114.52,"text":"如同部長剛剛講的"},{"start":5114.52,"end":5116.52,"text":"它蓋好之後需求會非常的"},{"start":5116.52,"end":5118.52,"text":"高 因為它的交通便利"},{"start":5118.52,"end":5120.52,"text":"那生活機能也非常的好"},{"start":5120.52,"end":5122.52,"text":"那我想確認一下"},{"start":5122.52,"end":5124.52,"text":"目前這個案子 就我的了解"},{"start":5124.52,"end":5126.52,"text":"應該是新北市政府正在進行都市計畫的"},{"start":5126.52,"end":5128.52,"text":"一個變更 那也之前"},{"start":5128.52,"end":5130.52,"text":"有送到內政部審議過啦"},{"start":5130.52,"end":5132.52,"text":"那可能針對一些"},{"start":5131.99,"end":5133.99,"text":"國土署有一些意見"},{"start":5133.99,"end":5135.99,"text":"退回到地方 那目前地方應該也準備"},{"start":5135.99,"end":5137.99,"text":"要送回來了 那我想請問一下"},{"start":5137.99,"end":5139.99,"text":"我們現在內政部或者是國土署"},{"start":5139.99,"end":5141.99,"text":"或是住住中心對於這一塊地"},{"start":5141.99,"end":5143.99,"text":"新建設宅的一個態度"},{"start":5143.99,"end":5145.99,"text":"報告委員 這塊地既然"},{"start":5145.99,"end":5147.99,"text":"這個新北市政府有按照"},{"start":5147.99,"end":5149.99,"text":"相關的都市計畫在進行"},{"start":5149.99,"end":5151.99,"text":"我們當然會來審議"},{"start":5151.99,"end":5153.99,"text":"那這個部分如果委員所指的是"},{"start":5153.99,"end":5155.99,"text":"這個寶藏坑營區"},{"start":5155.99,"end":5157.99,"text":"是的 營區國防部的那塊地"},{"start":5157.99,"end":5159.99,"text":"那如果你指的是寶藏坑營區的話"},{"start":5159.99,"end":5161.99,"text":"那當然了 在115年6月18日的時候"},{"start":5161.99,"end":5163.99,"text":"新北市的都委會"},{"start":5163.99,"end":5165.99,"text":"有185次的會議決議通過"},{"start":5165.99,"end":5167.99,"text":"那現在由新北市政府"},{"start":5167.99,"end":5169.99,"text":"在辦理補辦的公開展覽程序當中"},{"start":5171.99,"end":5173.99,"text":"是 那當然都市計畫的程序"},{"start":5173.99,"end":5175.99,"text":"照走 但是這一塊地的條件"},{"start":5175.99,"end":5177.99,"text":"我想先請教我們內政部或相關單位"},{"start":5177.99,"end":5179.99,"text":"是不是支持的"},{"start":5179.76,"end":5181.76,"text":"是支持的嗎"},{"start":5181.57,"end":5183.57,"text":"那相關的前置作業是不是可以先行過"},{"start":5183.57,"end":5185.57,"text":"因為如果說都市計畫程序"},{"start":5185.57,"end":5187.57,"text":"我想 我們這邊不討論太細啦"},{"start":5187.57,"end":5189.57,"text":"但是之前的一些問題 新北市政府應該都"},{"start":5189.57,"end":5191.57,"text":"依照國土署的意見 去針對"},{"start":5191.57,"end":5193.57,"text":"林地一些破碎的"},{"start":5193.57,"end":5195.57,"text":"機關用地去取得同意書了"},{"start":5195.57,"end":5197.57,"text":"那是不是前置作業可以先做"},{"start":5197.57,"end":5199.57,"text":"跟委員報告 我們其實每個地方"},{"start":5199.57,"end":5201.57,"text":"政府報告的一些案件 我們都有一個"},{"start":5201.57,"end":5203.57,"text":"成箱分組在做專業評估"},{"start":5203.57,"end":5205.57,"text":"那這個確實這個案子是可行的"},{"start":5205.57,"end":5207.57,"text":"是可行的嗎"},{"start":5207.57,"end":5209.57,"text":"那我剛剛請教的就是前置作業"},{"start":5209.57,"end":5213.57,"text":"能不能開始就開始做基地的一些規劃跟設計的"},{"start":5213.57,"end":5215.57,"text":"把這個分頭並行啦"},{"start":5215.57,"end":5217.57,"text":"這個還是要有它固定的程序啦"},{"start":5217.57,"end":5219.57,"text":"我們前面只是說"},{"start":5219.57,"end":5221.57,"text":"確定可行 所以市政府它現在"},{"start":5221.57,"end":5223.57,"text":"在做用地變更的程序"},{"start":5223.57,"end":5225.57,"text":"那後續我們會送來以後"},{"start":5225.57,"end":5227.57,"text":"我們會加速 我們會加速來辦"},{"start":5227.57,"end":5229.57,"text":"我還是希望你們可以這個"},{"start":5229.57,"end":5231.57,"text":"平行啦 就是很多事情在都市計畫"},{"start":5231.57,"end":5233.57,"text":"的變更啊 土地的取而等等的"},{"start":5233.57,"end":5235.57,"text":"很多政府為了加快"},{"start":5235.57,"end":5237.57,"text":"工程的進度都會分頭進行"},{"start":5237.57,"end":5239.57,"text":"比如說綜合固化報告和環評"},{"start":5239.57,"end":5241.57,"text":"好 大家分部進行嘛 因為我們都市計畫變更跟"},{"start":5242.27,"end":5244.27,"text":"這個土地的設計"},{"start":5244.27,"end":5246.27,"text":"你或許沒辦法做到西部設計"},{"start":5246.27,"end":5248.27,"text":"但是你一定是可以做一些"},{"start":5248.27,"end":5250.27,"text":"比較大範圍的一些"},{"start":5250.27,"end":5252.27,"text":"比較籠統的一些規劃"},{"start":5252.27,"end":5254.27,"text":"等等的 我希望我們單位"},{"start":5254.27,"end":5256.27,"text":"可以先來做一些評估啦"},{"start":5256.27,"end":5258.27,"text":"那加速 包括未來剛剛講的"},{"start":5258.27,"end":5260.27,"text":"你們說 或許你剛剛講的"},{"start":5260.27,"end":5262.27,"text":"三年後 委員說你們現在"},{"start":5262.27,"end":5264.27,"text":"定案的就一千戶 說不定你現在趕快規劃"},{"start":5264.27,"end":5266.27,"text":"你就放到後年後 那這個數字"},{"start":5266.27,"end":5268.27,"text":"就上來了 或許它"},{"start":5268.27,"end":5270.27,"text":"就可以馬上呈現在數字上那面了"},{"start":5270.27,"end":5272.27,"text":"跟委員報告其實這個東西就是"},{"start":5272.27,"end":5274.27,"text":"未來我們跟地方政府確認完"},{"start":5274.27,"end":5276.27,"text":"以後會再增加的 那前"},{"start":5276.27,"end":5278.27,"text":"次座位的很多工作我們都已經做完了"},{"start":5278.27,"end":5280.27,"text":"這個案子"},{"start":5280.27,"end":5282.27,"text":"所以我今天就最後一點時間再跟你們做"},{"start":5282.27,"end":5284.27,"text":"確認 有關係的這兩個"},{"start":5284.27,"end":5286.27,"text":"社宅案 白袍湖"},{"start":5286.27,"end":5288.27,"text":"社宅的一個興建"},{"start":5288.27,"end":5290.27,"text":"是我們這個"},{"start":5290.27,"end":5292.27,"text":"內政部主動喊停的"},{"start":5292.27,"end":5294.27,"text":"那另外一個 包括內政部"},{"start":5294.27,"end":5296.27,"text":"國發會不支持"},{"start":5296.27,"end":5298.27,"text":"所以沒有辦法繼續進行下去"},{"start":5298.27,"end":5300.27,"text":"那另外 保藏黑影卻這個社會住宅"},{"start":5300.27,"end":5302.27,"text":"內政部是支持的 會繼續進行下去"},{"start":5303.69,"end":5305.69,"text":"報告 召委 我想有關白袍湖的部分"},{"start":5305.69,"end":5307.69,"text":"是我們沒有預算 不是我們主動喊停"},{"start":5307.69,"end":5309.69,"text":"所以是立法院不支持"},{"start":5309.69,"end":5311.69,"text":"還是國發會不支持"},{"start":5314.12,"end":5316.12,"text":"從立法院在114年"},{"start":5316.12,"end":5318.12,"text":"開始刪減這個 0.21億"},{"start":5318.12,"end":5320.12,"text":"開始 那這個當然是進入"},{"start":5320.12,"end":5322.12,"text":"我們國發會的審查程序 一開始的時候"},{"start":5322.12,"end":5324.12,"text":"如果立法院就刪除"},{"start":5324.12,"end":5326.12,"text":"所以國發會不支持嘛對不對 到目前為止"},{"start":5326.12,"end":5328.12,"text":"115年的年度預算的公建計畫"},{"start":5328.12,"end":5330.12,"text":"裡面也沒有在裡面啊"},{"start":5330.12,"end":5332.12,"text":"所以就是"},{"start":5332.21,"end":5334.21,"text":"國發會沒有支持嘛"},{"start":5334.21,"end":5336.21,"text":"報告委員 我想是這樣子"},{"start":5336.21,"end":5338.21,"text":"我們如果沒有預算 我們怎麼去開發"},{"start":5338.21,"end":5340.21,"text":"任何運動休閒園區或是社會住宅"},{"start":5340.21,"end":5342.21,"text":"這案子沒關係 到這程序走完了之後"},{"start":5342.21,"end":5344.21,"text":"你們現在既然已經報行政院了"},{"start":5344.21,"end":5346.21,"text":"那後續有相關的"},{"start":5346.21,"end":5348.21,"text":"那個確定了之後 再麻煩"},{"start":5348.21,"end":5350.21,"text":"回覆相關資料 以上 謝謝"},{"start":5351.79,"end":5353.79,"text":"好 謝謝廖先生委員的指示"},{"start":5364.29,"end":5366.29,"text":"好 下一位請王洪威委員發言諮詢"},{"start":5374.45,"end":5376.45,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我請劉部長"},{"start":5376.45,"end":5378.45,"text":"還有花敬群董事長"},{"start":5386.13,"end":5388.13,"text":"好 董事長"},{"start":5388.13,"end":5392.13,"text":"這次召集以及寄居卸的一個風波"},{"start":5392.13,"end":5394.13,"text":"那影響範圍極大"},{"start":5394.13,"end":5396.13,"text":"製造了很多的豬屋孤兒"},{"start":5396.13,"end":5398.13,"text":"那在寄居卸的部分"},{"start":5398.13,"end":5402.13,"text":"這兩天你對外說明的比較多"},{"start":5402.13,"end":5404.13,"text":"就是再去做協調"},{"start":5404.13,"end":5408.13,"text":"由其他的單位來接手"},{"start":5408.6,"end":5410.6,"text":"不過我也覺得非常奇怪啦"},{"start":5410.6,"end":5412.6,"text":"因為你一直都強調"},{"start":5412.6,"end":5414.6,"text":"所有的這個"},{"start":5414.93,"end":5416.93,"text":"所有的豬屋代管"},{"start":5416.93,"end":5420.93,"text":"通通都是公開招標"},{"start":5420.93,"end":5422.93,"text":"但是你現在的一個"},{"start":5422.93,"end":5424.93,"text":"等於說階段性"},{"start":5424.93,"end":5426.93,"text":"這樣的一個處置"},{"start":5426.93,"end":5428.93,"text":"也沒有經過公開性的招標"},{"start":5428.93,"end":5430.93,"text":"那我另外請教"},{"start":5430.93,"end":5432.93,"text":"另外趙姬公司"},{"start":5434,"end":5438,"text":"趙姬公司她的這個豬屋代管的業務"},{"start":5438,"end":5440,"text":"會不會出問題"},{"start":5440.67,"end":5442.67,"text":"謝謝委員的推詢"},{"start":5442.67,"end":5446.67,"text":"我想第一個目前並沒有包租代管孤兒的狀況"},{"start":5446.67,"end":5448.67,"text":"現在所有的服務案件都還在持續進行中"},{"start":5448.67,"end":5450.67,"text":"那寄居卸的案子"},{"start":5450.67,"end":5452.67,"text":"其實寄居卸公司的服務"},{"start":5452.67,"end":5454.67,"text":"現在也還是存在"},{"start":5454.67,"end":5456.67,"text":"我先問你趙姬公司會不會有問題"},{"start":5456.67,"end":5460.67,"text":"這個部分我沒有辦法代替趙姬公司回答"},{"start":5460.67,"end":5462.67,"text":"因為他們現在內部正在重組"},{"start":5462.67,"end":5464.67,"text":"他們的主管團隊"},{"start":5464.67,"end":5466.67,"text":"那請問一下他包租代管的房東房客"},{"start":5466.67,"end":5468.67,"text":"會不會權益有問題"},{"start":5468.67,"end":5470.67,"text":"權益有問題"},{"start":5470.23,"end":5472.23,"text":"目前都還在服務的狀態當中"},{"start":5472.23,"end":5474.23,"text":"好請問一下昨天趙姬公司"},{"start":5474.23,"end":5478.23,"text":"他公開承認"},{"start":5478.23,"end":5480.23,"text":"他列為警事戶"},{"start":5480.23,"end":5482.23,"text":"因為有人去檢舉"},{"start":5482.23,"end":5484.23,"text":"他列為警事戶"},{"start":5484.23,"end":5486.23,"text":"警事戶解除了嗎"},{"start":5486.23,"end":5488.23,"text":"這個案子昨天當晚已經解除警事了"},{"start":5488.23,"end":5490.23,"text":"解除警事"},{"start":5490.23,"end":5494.23,"text":"那請問一下還會不會有一些投資人"},{"start":5494.23,"end":5496.23,"text":"因為現在投資人都組成自救協會了"},{"start":5496.23,"end":5498.23,"text":"自救會"},{"start":5498.23,"end":5500.23,"text":"所有跟我來做投訴"},{"start":5500.52,"end":5502.52,"text":"那請問一下還會不會有其他投資人"},{"start":5502.52,"end":5506.52,"text":"繼續的去控告趙姬公司"},{"start":5506.52,"end":5510.52,"text":"那使得他的銀行帳戶進入警事戶的一個階段"},{"start":5511.37,"end":5513.37,"text":"這個東西我沒有辦法判斷"},{"start":5513.37,"end":5515.37,"text":"但是當然經過了"},{"start":5515.37,"end":5517.37,"text":"昨天那一次的歷程"},{"start":5517.37,"end":5519.37,"text":"我相信銀行團"},{"start":5519.37,"end":5521.37,"text":"我必須要講喔"},{"start":5521.37,"end":5523.37,"text":"你不能講得雲淡風輕"},{"start":5523.37,"end":5525.37,"text":"因為所有包租代管"},{"start":5524.72,"end":5528.72,"text":"這個房客的錢進入趙姬公司的帳戶"},{"start":5528.72,"end":5530.72,"text":"趙姬公司再從他的帳戶"},{"start":5530.72,"end":5532.72,"text":"要把錢給房東"},{"start":5532.72,"end":5538.72,"text":"所以一旦他的帳戶出現任何的被凍結"},{"start":5538.72,"end":5540.72,"text":"或者進入警事戶"},{"start":5540.72,"end":5544.72,"text":"那第一個當然就是房東跟房客全以同時受損"},{"start":5544.72,"end":5546.72,"text":"還有另外我請問一下"},{"start":5546.72,"end":5550.72,"text":"因為你剛才我看到前面的質詢"},{"start":5550.72,"end":5552.72,"text":"你認為趙姬公司沒有問題嗎"},{"start":5552.45,"end":5554.45,"text":"我沒有說趙姬公司沒有問題"},{"start":5554.45,"end":5560.45,"text":"我想現在他們公司內部的團隊正在進行重整重組的過程"},{"start":5560.45,"end":5564.45,"text":"那我也都會持續的去了解他們的狀況"},{"start":5564.45,"end":5566.45,"text":"甚至我們在昨天已經約詢一次"},{"start":5566.45,"end":5570.45,"text":"我們要求他禮拜五把公司的財報"},{"start":5570.45,"end":5572.45,"text":"我想請問一下你也應該知道"},{"start":5572.45,"end":5576.45,"text":"他在立刻公司改組"},{"start":5576.45,"end":5578.45,"text":"他另外的一個股東"},{"start":5578.45,"end":5580.45,"text":"宏基接任董事長之後兩天"},{"start":5580.71,"end":5582.71,"text":"就立刻辭掉了"},{"start":5582.71,"end":5588.71,"text":"而且直接說這家公司他的管理有問題"},{"start":5588.93,"end":5592.93,"text":"擔心他的投資的這些問題會擴大"},{"start":5594.11,"end":5597.11,"text":"所以他自己裡面去接任董事長"},{"start":5597.11,"end":5600.11,"text":"兩天就不敢再繼續接任了"},{"start":5601.43,"end":5603.43,"text":"那這代表這家公司大有問題啊"},{"start":5605.05,"end":5608.05,"text":"我覺得這個因為現在是新的總經理"},{"start":5608.05,"end":5611.05,"text":"如果這次從基金協到趙姬"},{"start":5611.05,"end":5615.05,"text":"他們整個的包租貸款高達兩萬戶以上"},{"start":5615.05,"end":5617.05,"text":"有時候到兩萬八千戶"},{"start":5617.05,"end":5619.05,"text":"一個基金協說我不幹了"},{"start":5619.05,"end":5622.05,"text":"一個趙姬現在可能列入警事戶"},{"start":5622.05,"end":5625.05,"text":"還有這些投資人組成自救會"},{"start":5625.05,"end":5627.05,"text":"要跟他求償"},{"start":5627.05,"end":5629.05,"text":"可能有漫長的一個司法"},{"start":5629.05,"end":5631.05,"text":"那麼這麼龐大的房租"},{"start":5631.05,"end":5634.05,"text":"房東跟房客的權益"},{"start":5634.48,"end":5636.48,"text":"要怎麼樣保障呢?"},{"start":5636.7,"end":5638.7,"text":"這真的是一個非常大的風暴耶"},{"start":5638.7,"end":5639.7,"text":"基金協的案子"},{"start":5639.7,"end":5642.7,"text":"當然我們接下來這個月陸續轉嫌出去之後"},{"start":5642.7,"end":5646.7,"text":"其實就不會有房東房客潛在的這個糾紛的問題"},{"start":5646.7,"end":5651.7,"text":"那趙姬的部分當然我們現階段還是要尊重他們的經營團隊"},{"start":5651.7,"end":5653.7,"text":"以及現在的股東"},{"start":5653.7,"end":5657.7,"text":"在他們預計8月27號要開臨時股東會"},{"start":5657.7,"end":5660.7,"text":"會選出新任的董監事等等"},{"start":5660.7,"end":5662.7,"text":"那這部分我們當然要尊重"},{"start":5662.7,"end":5666.7,"text":"他們這些權利人對自己公司的處置過程"},{"start":5666.7,"end":5668.7,"text":"好董事長有時間有限"},{"start":5668.7,"end":5670.7,"text":"你們在尊重之餘"},{"start":5670.7,"end":5674.7,"text":"要怎麼樣保障這些房東跟房客的權益"},{"start":5674.7,"end":5677.7,"text":"就變得非常非常重要"},{"start":5677.7,"end":5680.7,"text":"所以等一下來請部長回答一下"},{"start":5682.5,"end":5684.5,"text":"如果這次風暴擴大"},{"start":5684.5,"end":5688.5,"text":"而並不像我們花敬群董事長講的這樣雲淡風氣"},{"start":5688.5,"end":5690.5,"text":"那要不要有人"},{"start":5691.28,"end":5694.28,"text":"這個要負起一個行政責任或政治責任"},{"start":5694.28,"end":5695.28,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":5695.28,"end":5698.28,"text":"我們在多次的這個對外的說法裡面"},{"start":5698.28,"end":5705.28,"text":"就是目前我們跟各縣市地方政府處理包租代管業者的這些市府團隊"},{"start":5705.28,"end":5707.28,"text":"都保持密切的溝通"},{"start":5707.28,"end":5710.28,"text":"那有關房東房客權益受損的部分的話"},{"start":5710.28,"end":5712.28,"text":"我們會用這個公共設施的"},{"start":5712.28,"end":5716.28,"text":"公共利益的這個服務不打折的方式"},{"start":5716.28,"end":5718.28,"text":"來處理房東房客的權益"},{"start":5718.28,"end":5719.28,"text":"這是第一個"},{"start":5719.28,"end":5725.28,"text":"如果造機或者是寄居縣有任何在處理包租代管業務上面出現狀況"},{"start":5725.28,"end":5728.28,"text":"沒有辦法回覆我們所提的問題的時候"},{"start":5728.28,"end":5730.28,"text":"我們會暫停第四期的撥付計畫"},{"start":5730.28,"end":5734.28,"text":"那再來就是說裡面有沒有人謀不章的問題的話"},{"start":5734.28,"end":5737.28,"text":"我已經先啟動內部的行政的查查的程序"},{"start":5737.28,"end":5739.28,"text":"好所以要有行政調查的程序"},{"start":5739.28,"end":5743.28,"text":"才能夠去回應現在社會的一些質疑"},{"start":5743.28,"end":5745.28,"text":"另外來部長"},{"start":5745.28,"end":5748.28,"text":"那個先暫停一下部長還有署長好嗎"},{"start":5748.28,"end":5750.28,"text":"我們郭徒書署長"},{"start":5752.62,"end":5754.62,"text":"好"},{"start":5754.91,"end":5756.91,"text":"部長署長"},{"start":5756.91,"end":5758.91,"text":"剛才因為很多委員關心"},{"start":5758.91,"end":5762.91,"text":"就是民團在直接指出的"},{"start":5762.91,"end":5765.91,"text":"也就是我們社宅的興建"},{"start":5765.91,"end":5769.91,"text":"原來從外總統的13萬戶的他的政見跳票"},{"start":5769.91,"end":5772.91,"text":"變成只有3萬戶"},{"start":5772.91,"end":5774.91,"text":"那剛才我有注意到"},{"start":5774.91,"end":5778.91,"text":"這個部長跟署長都在澄清沒有這件事"},{"start":5779.57,"end":5781.57,"text":"可是你看我算是"},{"start":5782.4,"end":5785.4,"text":"很認真的我還幫你們都mark起來"},{"start":5786.18,"end":5789.18,"text":"我就看不到在你報告裡面"},{"start":5789.18,"end":5796.18,"text":"針對外界最近沸沸揚揚在質疑的政見大票票"},{"start":5796.18,"end":5798.18,"text":"裡面你沒有"},{"start":5797.94,"end":5801.94,"text":"白紙黑字就沒有寫說你這13萬戶絕不跳票"},{"start":5802.69,"end":5804.69,"text":"所以你現在是口頭上講而已"},{"start":5805.55,"end":5807.55,"text":"另外我必須要講"},{"start":5807.55,"end":5811.55,"text":"我們這一次整個包租代管的業務"},{"start":5811.55,"end":5813.55,"text":"其實會有這麼大的出包"},{"start":5813.55,"end":5816.55,"text":"其實要有很多地方要檢討"},{"start":5816.55,"end":5819.55,"text":"也就是說我們用了很多包租代管"},{"start":5819.55,"end":5821.55,"text":"還有包含房屋補貼"},{"start":5821.55,"end":5826.55,"text":"去彌補那個所謂的百萬社宅的一個大餅"},{"start":5826.55,"end":5829.55,"text":"但是現在包租代管出現了問題"},{"start":5829.55,"end":5831.55,"text":"因為這些公司他的財務"},{"start":5831.55,"end":5834.55,"text":"甚至這次可能涉及到投資詐騙"},{"start":5834.55,"end":5837.55,"text":"我先跟你講一下我聽到的消息是"},{"start":5837.55,"end":5841.55,"text":"因為他們掌控很多房東的資訊"},{"start":5841.55,"end":5843.55,"text":"房東很多有包租公包租婆"},{"start":5843.55,"end":5846.55,"text":"包租公包租婆有什麼特色"},{"start":5847.27,"end":5848.27,"text":"有錢"},{"start":5848.94,"end":5852.94,"text":"所以他們就成為他們去要求他們來投資"},{"start":5852.94,"end":5855.94,"text":"去買他公司在的這些對象"},{"start":5855.94,"end":5857.94,"text":"所以你一方包租代管給他們"},{"start":5857.94,"end":5862.94,"text":"另外一方面又提供給他們一個投資的客源"},{"start":5862.94,"end":5866.94,"text":"所以這一點我剛才為什麼因為時間的關係"},{"start":5866.94,"end":5870.94,"text":"我要講就是說這次的包租代管所爆發出來的問題"},{"start":5870.94,"end":5872.94,"text":"他的面向是很多重的"},{"start":5873.29,"end":5878.29,"text":"那另外你們現在社宅的新辦少十萬戶"},{"start":5878.29,"end":5879.29,"text":"你說沒有"},{"start":5879.29,"end":5881.29,"text":"但是我沒有看到你白紙黑字"},{"start":5881.29,"end":5884.29,"text":"很明確的告訴我們說這個政見絕不跳票"},{"start":5884.29,"end":5887.29,"text":"我們直接新建一定還是有十三萬戶"},{"start":5887.29,"end":5889.29,"text":"好另外我要提出質疑"},{"start":5889.29,"end":5891.29,"text":"剛才你們一直在講"},{"start":5891.29,"end":5894.29,"text":"就是說因為地方跟地方了解之後"},{"start":5894.29,"end":5897.29,"text":"說這個地有限等等之類"},{"start":5897.29,"end":5899.29,"text":"好那我要請問一下"},{"start":5899.29,"end":5902.29,"text":"對於地方社宅的補助"},{"start":5902.29,"end":5905.29,"text":"是不是到2028年就全面取消補助"},{"start":5905.29,"end":5907.29,"text":"這一點是不是確定的"},{"start":5909.52,"end":5911.52,"text":"報告委員你所提的三個問題"},{"start":5911.52,"end":5913.52,"text":"第一個我先簡單跟委員報告"},{"start":5913.52,"end":5915.52,"text":"感謝委員關心賴總統的政見"},{"start":5915.52,"end":5917.52,"text":"你現在所看到的這樣子的一個"},{"start":5917.52,"end":5921.52,"text":"所謂十三萬變成三萬的部分是一個草案"},{"start":5921.52,"end":5924.52,"text":"這個草案是縣市地方政府"},{"start":5924.52,"end":5926.52,"text":"跟我們中央政府在討論的部分"},{"start":5926.52,"end":5929.52,"text":"所以第一階段新建的量是三萬戶"},{"start":5929.52,"end":5931.52,"text":"那未來的八年的新建的量"},{"start":5931.52,"end":5933.52,"text":"我們是朝著三萬戶的問題"},{"start":5933.52,"end":5934.52,"text":"那我請問一下"},{"start":5934.52,"end":5935.52,"text":"目前賴總統上任之後"},{"start":5935.52,"end":5936.52,"text":"這是你們的資料"},{"start":5936.52,"end":5939.52,"text":"已經達到2.4萬戶"},{"start":5940.72,"end":5942.72,"text":"好"},{"start":5941.75,"end":5943.75,"text":"已經達到2.4萬戶沒有錯吧"},{"start":5944.96,"end":5946.96,"text":"啊"},{"start":5946.73,"end":5949.73,"text":"好中央加地方達到2.4萬戶"},{"start":5949.73,"end":5951.73,"text":"如果按照你們草案三萬戶"},{"start":5951.73,"end":5953.73,"text":"就是未來你們只要蓋六千戶了"},{"start":5953.73,"end":5954.73,"text":"是這個意思嗎"},{"start":5954.73,"end":5956.73,"text":"報告委員我們有提到的"},{"start":5956.73,"end":5958.73,"text":"您現在所提的就是樹地"},{"start":5958.73,"end":5960.73,"text":"就是直接是空地裡面長出來的"},{"start":5960.73,"end":5963.73,"text":"但是呢我們有提到多元新辦"},{"start":5963.73,"end":5965.73,"text":"這個多元新辦包括榮獎"},{"start":5965.73,"end":5967.73,"text":"包括都更危老等等這些"},{"start":5967.73,"end":5970.73,"text":"都是朝著尤其是朝著這個總統所指示的"},{"start":5970.73,"end":5972.73,"text":"這些都是要以婚育宅為先"},{"start":5972.73,"end":5974.73,"text":"來推動的社會住宅"},{"start":5974.73,"end":5975.73,"text":"你們這些都跟"},{"start":5975.73,"end":5977.73,"text":"我是說你們直接新辦"},{"start":5977.73,"end":5980.73,"text":"當時直接新辦就是13萬戶啊"},{"start":5980.73,"end":5984.73,"text":"然後其他的加起來才是百萬戶啊"},{"start":5984.73,"end":5986.73,"text":"然後你們現在"},{"start":5986.73,"end":5990.73,"text":"所以到三萬戶這個數字並不是空穴來風嘛"},{"start":5990.73,"end":5992.73,"text":"因為你剛剛講是你們的草案"},{"start":5992.73,"end":5993.73,"text":"我要確定一下"},{"start":5993.73,"end":5995.73,"text":"因為大家全國都在聽啊"},{"start":5995.73,"end":5998.73,"text":"很多人在關心到底是13萬戶"},{"start":5998.73,"end":5999.73,"text":"還是3萬戶"},{"start":5999.73,"end":6001.73,"text":"所以我才多次跟大家講說"},{"start":6001.73,"end":6003.73,"text":"我們的目標值並沒有改變"},{"start":6003.73,"end":6005.73,"text":"好 再次的時間來證明"},{"start":6005.73,"end":6007.73,"text":"好 所以13萬戶是目標"},{"start":6007.73,"end":6010.73,"text":"但是你目前的草案是3萬戶"},{"start":6012.27,"end":6014.27,"text":"因為剛才講說草案3萬戶啊"},{"start":6014.27,"end":6018.27,"text":"13萬戶這個是確定以後要達成的目標"},{"start":6018.27,"end":6020.27,"text":"但是我們什麼時候達成"},{"start":6020.27,"end":6021.27,"text":"121年"},{"start":6021.27,"end":6023.27,"text":"然後那個現在做的是"},{"start":6023.27,"end":6025.27,"text":"因為跟地方政府盤點完以後"},{"start":6025.27,"end":6027.27,"text":"用地沒有問題可以蓋的"},{"start":6027.27,"end":6029.27,"text":"這個部分第一階段已經"},{"start":6029.27,"end":6030.27,"text":"另外我想一個很重要的"},{"start":6030.27,"end":6032.27,"text":"就是對地方你們在講地方"},{"start":6032.27,"end":6034.27,"text":"對地方的補助"},{"start":6034.62,"end":6037.62,"text":"會不會2028就取消了"},{"start":6037.62,"end":6038.62,"text":"跟委員報告不會"},{"start":6038.62,"end":6040.62,"text":"因為我們之前核定的一些相關的"},{"start":6040.62,"end":6041.62,"text":"社宅補助案"},{"start":6041.62,"end":6042.62,"text":"這個部分就用20年"},{"start":6042.62,"end":6044.62,"text":"所以現在這一次大家關心的"},{"start":6044.62,"end":6046.62,"text":"除了你的這個"},{"start":6046.62,"end":6049.62,"text":"就是要興建的戶數大幅縮減之外"},{"start":6049.62,"end":6050.62,"text":"另外一個部分"},{"start":6050.62,"end":6052.62,"text":"就是對地方補助的取消"},{"start":6052.62,"end":6054.62,"text":"所以你在這邊告訴我們"},{"start":6054.62,"end":6057.62,"text":"對地方補助他們興建社宅不會取消"},{"start":6057.62,"end":6058.62,"text":"是嗎"},{"start":6059.35,"end":6060.35,"text":"有沒有"},{"start":6060.35,"end":6062.35,"text":"我們今年我們有統籌分配稅款"},{"start":6062.35,"end":6063.35,"text":"今年有改變"},{"start":6063.35,"end":6066.35,"text":"那之前已經確定的這個都不會變"},{"start":6066.35,"end":6068.35,"text":"那這個部分後面只是說"},{"start":6068.35,"end":6070.35,"text":"他必須要做一些地方配合款"},{"start":6070.35,"end":6071.35,"text":"才外法修正以後"},{"start":6071.35,"end":6072.35,"text":"一直都有啊"},{"start":6072.35,"end":6073.35,"text":"一直都有啊"},{"start":6073.35,"end":6074.35,"text":"他們一直都有自籌款"},{"start":6074.35,"end":6076.35,"text":"之前的部分"},{"start":6076.35,"end":6078.35,"text":"我們核定的這個部分是全額"},{"start":6078.35,"end":6081.35,"text":"所以就是會縮水的意思"},{"start":6081.35,"end":6082.35,"text":"沒有這不是縮水"},{"start":6082.35,"end":6083.35,"text":"因為這個地方的"},{"start":6083.35,"end":6085.35,"text":"我在這邊我不耽誤其他委員"},{"start":6085.35,"end":6087.35,"text":"我相信很多委員都關心"},{"start":6087.35,"end":6088.35,"text":"我要特別講"},{"start":6088.35,"end":6090.35,"text":"其實對於地方來說"},{"start":6090.35,"end":6091.35,"text":"你可以看到"},{"start":6091.35,"end":6092.35,"text":"這個是你們資料"},{"start":6092.35,"end":6094.35,"text":"今天是你報告的資料"},{"start":6094.35,"end":6095.35,"text":"你們全部"},{"start":6095.35,"end":6098.35,"text":"比如說在北北"},{"start":6098.35,"end":6101.35,"text":"就是新北跟台北市跟桃園市"},{"start":6101.35,"end":6103.35,"text":"這三個主要地方"},{"start":6103.35,"end":6106.35,"text":"事實上三個主要的縣市政府"},{"start":6106.35,"end":6108.35,"text":"他們所興建的戶數"},{"start":6108.35,"end":6110.35,"text":"其實都非常高"},{"start":6110.35,"end":6113.35,"text":"也就是說地方很努力的"},{"start":6113.35,"end":6115.35,"text":"也在興建社會住宅"},{"start":6115.35,"end":6117.35,"text":"所以我要講的是說"},{"start":6117.35,"end":6119.35,"text":"他們算是社宅的模範生"},{"start":6119.35,"end":6122.35,"text":"可是你們給他的補助款"},{"start":6122.35,"end":6124.35,"text":"不應該因此縮水"},{"start":6124.35,"end":6125.35,"text":"我有計算一下"},{"start":6125.35,"end":6127.35,"text":"就是以台北市"},{"start":6127.35,"end":6129.35,"text":"全部興建的社宅"},{"start":6129.35,"end":6131.35,"text":"而由地方興辦的"},{"start":6131.35,"end":6133.35,"text":"是42.2%"},{"start":6133.35,"end":6134.35,"text":"新北市"},{"start":6134.35,"end":6137.35,"text":"中央加地方全部興辦"},{"start":6137.35,"end":6140.35,"text":"而是地方興辦的比例"},{"start":6140.35,"end":6142.35,"text":"是55.7%"},{"start":6142.35,"end":6144.35,"text":"超過五成是地方興辦的"},{"start":6144.35,"end":6147.35,"text":"然後桃園市大概49.2%"},{"start":6147.35,"end":6149.35,"text":"是地方興辦"},{"start":6149.35,"end":6151.35,"text":"所以我要講的就是說"},{"start":6151.35,"end":6152.35,"text":"其實這幾個縣市"},{"start":6152.35,"end":6156.35,"text":"都是興建地方社宅的"},{"start":6156.35,"end":6158.35,"text":"一個模範生"},{"start":6158.88,"end":6160.88,"text":"所以我也希望說"},{"start":6160.88,"end":6162.88,"text":"在他們願意配合"},{"start":6162.88,"end":6164.88,"text":"即便這三個縣市"},{"start":6164.88,"end":6165.88,"text":"應該基本上"},{"start":6165.88,"end":6167.88,"text":"都是寸土寸金的地方"},{"start":6167.88,"end":6170.88,"text":"但是他們願意配合政策"},{"start":6170.88,"end":6171.88,"text":"積極的興建"},{"start":6171.88,"end":6173.88,"text":"這個都是賴總統上任之後"},{"start":6173.88,"end":6174.88,"text":"興辦的統計表"},{"start":6174.88,"end":6177.88,"text":"這是你們的書面報告"},{"start":6177.88,"end":6178.88,"text":"是不是"},{"start":6178.88,"end":6179.88,"text":"所以我希望是"},{"start":6179.88,"end":6182.88,"text":"對於有在積極"},{"start":6182.88,"end":6186.88,"text":"興建社會住宅的地方政府"},{"start":6186.88,"end":6188.88,"text":"你們的補助不要縮水"},{"start":6188.88,"end":6189.88,"text":"不要忘記"},{"start":6189.88,"end":6193.88,"text":"你明年是3.6兆的預算"},{"start":6193.88,"end":6195.88,"text":"明年3.6兆的預算"},{"start":6195.88,"end":6196.88,"text":"你現在跟外界講"},{"start":6196.88,"end":6198.88,"text":"所以你們的這個"},{"start":6198.88,"end":6200.88,"text":"社宅的興建的預算"},{"start":6200.88,"end":6204.88,"text":"從2046億要減成820.9億"},{"start":6204.88,"end":6205.88,"text":"說不過去"},{"start":6205.88,"end":6210.88,"text":"明年3兆6千億的預算"},{"start":6210.88,"end":6212.88,"text":"然後你們的社宅興建"},{"start":6212.88,"end":6217.88,"text":"要從2046億減成820.9億"},{"start":6217.88,"end":6218.88,"text":"這個是大家"},{"start":6218.88,"end":6219.88,"text":"絕對很難接受的"},{"start":6219.88,"end":6222.88,"text":"所以我希望內政部長"},{"start":6222.88,"end":6223.88,"text":"我們劉部長"},{"start":6223.88,"end":6226.88,"text":"請找國土署再重新檢討"},{"start":6226.88,"end":6228.88,"text":"我們整個社宅興建"},{"start":6228.88,"end":6231.88,"text":"剛剛講說砍到3萬太少了"},{"start":6231.88,"end":6234.88,"text":"你們現在興建已經2萬4千戶"},{"start":6234.88,"end":6236.88,"text":"如果按照你現在變3萬的話"},{"start":6236.88,"end":6238.88,"text":"你只增加6千戶"},{"start":6238.88,"end":6240.88,"text":"我告訴你賴總統"},{"start":6240.88,"end":6243.88,"text":"怎麼他還要再連任"},{"start":6243.88,"end":6244.88,"text":"當然不是這個答案"},{"start":6244.88,"end":6246.88,"text":"所以請你"},{"start":6246.88,"end":6247.88,"text":"請你"},{"start":6247.88,"end":6248.88,"text":"這個是你的數字"},{"start":6248.88,"end":6249.88,"text":"沒有沒有沒有"},{"start":6249.88,"end":6251.88,"text":"我剛剛已經提過了"},{"start":6251.88,"end":6253.88,"text":"我們直接興建社會住宅"},{"start":6253.88,"end":6254.88,"text":"確實是需要比較多的"},{"start":6254.88,"end":6256.88,"text":"公路預算的投入"},{"start":6256.88,"end":6258.88,"text":"但是未來我們如果有榮獎"},{"start":6258.88,"end":6260.88,"text":"或者是都更等等這些的話"},{"start":6260.88,"end":6261.88,"text":"就比較不需要"},{"start":6261.88,"end":6263.88,"text":"有身分來支援這些"},{"start":6263.88,"end":6265.88,"text":"我們也同意北北基"},{"start":6265.88,"end":6268.88,"text":"毛中是本來社宅的熱區"},{"start":6268.88,"end":6269.88,"text":"好我希望"},{"start":6269.88,"end":6271.88,"text":"但是財政水準化專報"},{"start":6271.88,"end":6273.88,"text":"也是到院通過的"},{"start":6273.88,"end":6275.88,"text":"部長今天我們專報"},{"start":6275.88,"end":6277.88,"text":"這個我們的召委"},{"start":6277.88,"end":6278.88,"text":"排了這個專報"},{"start":6278.88,"end":6281.88,"text":"其實是讓你們今天去澄清"},{"start":6281.88,"end":6283.88,"text":"民團他們質疑"},{"start":6283.88,"end":6285.88,"text":"這些包含砍戶數砍預算的"},{"start":6285.88,"end":6287.88,"text":"一個非常好的時機"},{"start":6287.88,"end":6288.88,"text":"是的謝謝"},{"start":6288.88,"end":6292.88,"text":"但是這個圖已經廣傳在網路上"},{"start":6292.88,"end":6293.88,"text":"我這邊左邊圖"},{"start":6293.88,"end":6294.88,"text":"廣傳在網路上"},{"start":6294.88,"end":6297.88,"text":"但是這個圖必須要把所有的公務員"},{"start":6297.88,"end":6299.88,"text":"沒有任何事宜"},{"start":6299.88,"end":6301.88,"text":"一個新聞長達兩公分那麼厚的時候"},{"start":6301.88,"end":6302.88,"text":"只有一張圖表"},{"start":6302.88,"end":6304.88,"text":"不能夠掐頭掐尾來作戰的解釋"},{"start":6304.88,"end":6305.88,"text":"那你都沒有辦法解釋"},{"start":6305.88,"end":6306.88,"text":"給你機會解釋"},{"start":6306.88,"end":6308.88,"text":"給你安排專報"},{"start":6308.88,"end":6309.88,"text":"你都沒有辦法解釋"},{"start":6309.88,"end":6310.88,"text":"我們已經講得非常清楚"},{"start":6310.88,"end":6312.88,"text":"它必須要整個調整"},{"start":6312.88,"end":6313.88,"text":"我看不出這個圖"},{"start":6313.88,"end":6315.88,"text":"沒有錯的地方"},{"start":6315.88,"end":6317.88,"text":"所以我們再來跟委員做報告"},{"start":6317.88,"end":6318.88,"text":"都沒有關係"},{"start":6318.88,"end":6320.88,"text":"不是只有跟我們做報告"},{"start":6320.88,"end":6322.88,"text":"你要跟社會做報告好不好"},{"start":6322.88,"end":6324.88,"text":"既然都今天排了這個專報"},{"start":6324.88,"end":6326.88,"text":"但是我覺得沒有解釋"},{"start":6326.88,"end":6327.88,"text":"外界的懷疑之處"},{"start":6327.88,"end":6329.88,"text":"是我們知道很多外界不同的聲音"},{"start":6329.88,"end":6331.88,"text":"那我們會再做一個比較簡單的"},{"start":6331.88,"end":6333.88,"text":"跟大家做一個事宜"},{"start":6333.88,"end":6334.88,"text":"也謝謝委員的關心"},{"start":6341.34,"end":6343.34,"text":"好 我們帶蘇巧會委員發言"},{"start":6343.34,"end":6345.34,"text":"質詢完休息"},{"start":6345.34,"end":6347.34,"text":"我們下一位請李柏毅召委發言質詢"},{"start":6352.95,"end":6353.95,"text":"好 謝謝有請劉部長"},{"start":6356.42,"end":6358.42,"text":"還有那個署長"},{"start":6359.75,"end":6360.75,"text":"署長"},{"start":6361.86,"end":6364.86,"text":"你來自地方政府的局長"},{"start":6365.62,"end":6368.62,"text":"那中央在問你這些進度的時候"},{"start":6368.62,"end":6369.62,"text":"你回報以後"},{"start":6369.62,"end":6371.62,"text":"那算出來的東西"},{"start":6371.62,"end":6373.62,"text":"那個叫做現階段"},{"start":6373.62,"end":6374.62,"text":"不是草案"},{"start":6375.37,"end":6377.37,"text":"好 那我再問你一次"},{"start":6379.02,"end":6382.02,"text":"賴總統的承諾"},{"start":6382.02,"end":6385.02,"text":"新建社會住宅13萬戶"},{"start":6385.02,"end":6387.02,"text":"現階段是多少"},{"start":6387.86,"end":6389.86,"text":"現階段我們已經核定的是"},{"start":6389.86,"end":6391.86,"text":"2萬4千戶"},{"start":6391.86,"end":6393.86,"text":"你剛加縣市政府的是多少"},{"start":6393.86,"end":6394.86,"text":"加縣市政府是3萬戶"},{"start":6395.76,"end":6396.76,"text":"這是現階段"},{"start":6396.76,"end":6398.76,"text":"怎麼會是草案呢"},{"start":6399.13,"end":6402.13,"text":"好 那今天內政部也說明的很清楚"},{"start":6402.13,"end":6404.13,"text":"那目標不變"},{"start":6404.13,"end":6405.13,"text":"13萬戶目標不變"},{"start":6405.13,"end":6407.13,"text":"但是新建的方式可能"},{"start":6407.13,"end":6410.13,"text":"要地方政府來協助"},{"start":6410.13,"end":6411.13,"text":"我講一下"},{"start":6412.73,"end":6414.73,"text":"我的選區左營男子"},{"start":6414.73,"end":6416.73,"text":"那因為產業進駐的關係"},{"start":6416.73,"end":6417.73,"text":"其實"},{"start":6418.3,"end":6420.3,"text":"左營男子的這個"},{"start":6420.3,"end":6421.3,"text":"社宅新建"},{"start":6421.3,"end":6424.3,"text":"包含絕標帶開工的戶數"},{"start":6425.17,"end":6427.17,"text":"9000多戶 接近1萬戶"},{"start":6428.07,"end":6431.07,"text":"這個應該是所有全台灣的行政區裡面"},{"start":6431.07,"end":6433.07,"text":"算是最高的一區之一啦"},{"start":6433.07,"end":6436.07,"text":"那未來還有沒有新建的空間"},{"start":6436.07,"end":6438.07,"text":"我覺得未來我們現在面臨的是"},{"start":6439.09,"end":6441.09,"text":"珠卜的不確定性"},{"start":6441.09,"end":6443.09,"text":"這一部分我要請部長回應"},{"start":6444.41,"end":6445.41,"text":"部長"},{"start":6446.37,"end":6447.37,"text":"財劃法之後"},{"start":6447.37,"end":6450.37,"text":"那整個台北市政府"},{"start":6450.37,"end":6453.37,"text":"台北市的財劃法之後的"},{"start":6453.37,"end":6456.37,"text":"多獲得的金額是"},{"start":6456.37,"end":6459.37,"text":"1150億左右"},{"start":6460.12,"end":6464.12,"text":"高雄市只獲只拿到757億"},{"start":6464.12,"end":6469.12,"text":"比原本的增加不到250億"},{"start":6469.12,"end":6472.12,"text":"而且必須要負擔的金額非常的多"},{"start":6472.12,"end":6474.12,"text":"對高雄市不公平之外"},{"start":6474.97,"end":6477.97,"text":"台北市目前對於珠卜的"},{"start":6477.97,"end":6479.97,"text":"政策"},{"start":6480.39,"end":6484.39,"text":"他還說是中央的政策地方要買單"},{"start":6484.39,"end":6486.39,"text":"請問部長這樣公平嗎"},{"start":6488.06,"end":6492.06,"text":"地方政府是不是也應該要負擔這些珠卜的金額"},{"start":6492.06,"end":6494.06,"text":"報告委員到目前為止"},{"start":6494.06,"end":6496.06,"text":"115年"},{"start":6496.06,"end":6500.06,"text":"116年的珠卜的負擔比例並沒有改變"},{"start":6500.06,"end":6501.06,"text":"這樣不公平吧"},{"start":6501.48,"end":6503.48,"text":"你多拿了那麼多經費"},{"start":6503.48,"end":6504.48,"text":"多拿了500億"},{"start":6504.48,"end":6507.48,"text":"然後珠卜你一塊錢都不出"},{"start":6509.16,"end":6514.16,"text":"當然委員所提的部分我們有檢討的空間"},{"start":6514.16,"end":6516.16,"text":"那這個檢討的空間大概會以"},{"start":6516.16,"end":6520.16,"text":"財政收支劃分法的方式再來做這個檢討跟改進"},{"start":6520.16,"end":6523.16,"text":"所以原版的財劃法裡面有把這一部分討論進去嗎"},{"start":6523.16,"end":6526.16,"text":"但是立法院就是不排不通過"},{"start":6526.16,"end":6529.16,"text":"立法院通過的就是國民黨版本的財劃法"},{"start":6529.16,"end":6532.16,"text":"那國民黨版本的財劃法在台北市"},{"start":6532.16,"end":6536.16,"text":"台中市他多拿了這麼多的財劃法的分配款之後"},{"start":6536.16,"end":6539.16,"text":"他對珠卜他還是不願意付出嘛"},{"start":6539.16,"end":6543.16,"text":"那你從中央拿了那麼多預算過去之後"},{"start":6543.16,"end":6545.16,"text":"你對珠卜還是不願意付出"},{"start":6545.16,"end":6547.16,"text":"這是我今天想要點出來的問題啦"},{"start":6549.59,"end":6553.59,"text":"所以部長我們是不是跟地方政府還在喊喊話"},{"start":6553.59,"end":6556.59,"text":"希望他們在今年度明年度的這個珠卜"},{"start":6556.59,"end":6558.59,"text":"地方政府應該要多付"},{"start":6558.59,"end":6560.59,"text":"我們再來跟地方檢討啦"},{"start":6560.59,"end":6564.59,"text":"就是說原來中央所提到的就是珠卜的部分呢"},{"start":6564.59,"end":6567.59,"text":"不管是全額補助或是有部分的補助的方式呢"},{"start":6567.59,"end":6572.59,"text":"無論怎麼樣如果我們依法行政還是要按照財政收支劃分法來"},{"start":6572.59,"end":6576.59,"text":"但是這裡面如果已經有影響到這個尤其是弱勢族群的話呢"},{"start":6576.59,"end":6579.59,"text":"我覺得我們需要再跟地方政府多多溝通"},{"start":6579.59,"end":6582.59,"text":"而且有些地方政府的財力其實相當的不錯"},{"start":6582.59,"end":6587.59,"text":"那如果根據我們這個大院所通過的財力分級的補助的話"},{"start":6587.59,"end":6592.59,"text":"台北市是60% 新北市70% 桃園跟台中是80%"},{"start":6592.59,"end":6594.59,"text":"高雄市是85% 台南市是90%"},{"start":6594.59,"end":6597.59,"text":"這個是根據我們新的這個財劃法"},{"start":6597.59,"end":6601.59,"text":"但是如果每個縣市政府不願意按照這樣的比例來做這個分攤的話"},{"start":6601.59,"end":6603.59,"text":"我們也必須要有容售的空間"},{"start":6603.59,"end":6605.59,"text":"不過我剛有跟委員報告過"},{"start":6605.59,"end":6611.59,"text":"115跟116到目前為止是按照現行的這個條件並沒有做改變"},{"start":6611.59,"end":6612.59,"text":"好 謝謝部長"},{"start":6612.59,"end":6613.59,"text":"我們再來做基隆市的調整"},{"start":6613.59,"end":6615.59,"text":"來我請這個花敬群董事長"},{"start":6621.54,"end":6622.54,"text":"委員好"},{"start":6622.54,"end":6624.54,"text":"董事長剛有動氣我覺得不必要動氣"},{"start":6624.54,"end":6626.54,"text":"我們來把"},{"start":6626.81,"end":6631.81,"text":"目前出事的這家營運公司的來龍去脈"},{"start":6631.81,"end":6632.81,"text":"部長請先回座"},{"start":6632.81,"end":6638.81,"text":"我們把目前財務狀況有問題的這家公司來做"},{"start":6638.81,"end":6642.81,"text":"它的來龍去脈的一個解讀"},{"start":6644.02,"end":6646.02,"text":"2017年蔡英文政府"},{"start":6646.54,"end":6649.54,"text":"在行政院核定社會主宰新辦計畫之後"},{"start":6651.14,"end":6656.14,"text":"地方政府第一個委託造機做社宅營運的是誰"},{"start":6656.14,"end":6657.14,"text":"是台北市政府"},{"start":6657.14,"end":6658.14,"text":"是"},{"start":6658.21,"end":6662.21,"text":"2018年當時董事長在內政部"},{"start":6662.21,"end":6666.21,"text":"這個租賃市場發展管理條例通過之後"},{"start":6666.21,"end":6673.21,"text":"才有後來的造機五管開始大量的不管在地方政府"},{"start":6673.21,"end":6677.21,"text":"或者是中央在推動的這些社宅"},{"start":6677.21,"end":6680.21,"text":"有大量的這些委託的案件"},{"start":6680.21,"end":6681.21,"text":"這個是時間的脈絡"},{"start":6681.21,"end":6686.21,"text":"我跟委員報告造機公司在我們社宅包租代管一共有五期"},{"start":6686.21,"end":6689.21,"text":"一到四期做的都是縣市政府的版本"},{"start":6689.21,"end":6691.21,"text":"沒有做中央政府的版本"},{"start":6691.21,"end":6694.21,"text":"第五期才開始做中央政府的版本"},{"start":6694.21,"end":6697.21,"text":"那為什麼民眾黨第一時間要跳出來做這麼多解釋"},{"start":6697.21,"end":6698.21,"text":"你要知道啊"},{"start":6698.21,"end":6700.21,"text":"就是從台北市政府來的啊"},{"start":6700.21,"end":6702.21,"text":"所以你不必動氣"},{"start":6702.21,"end":6705.21,"text":"因為包租代管目前是政府的政策"},{"start":6705.21,"end":6708.21,"text":"那政府的政策當然要有民間的配合"},{"start":6708.21,"end":6711.21,"text":"那這一個包租代管能不能營運是可以的"},{"start":6711.21,"end":6712.21,"text":"是"},{"start":6712.21,"end":6717.21,"text":"個別公司出問題不代表這一個包租代管的業務是有問題的"},{"start":6717.21,"end":6718.21,"text":"是"},{"start":6718.21,"end":6720.21,"text":"我們必須要把這一個理清楚之後"},{"start":6720.21,"end":6721.21,"text":"好"},{"start":6721.21,"end":6723.21,"text":"那如果萬一其他的公司"},{"start":6723.64,"end":6726.64,"text":"以後也有這些相關類似的問題我們怎麼來處理"},{"start":6726.64,"end":6728.64,"text":"這是我們目前要討論的問題"},{"start":6728.64,"end":6732.64,"text":"包含剛剛其他委員有提到旅行社同業的平保"},{"start":6732.64,"end":6736.64,"text":"或者是比如說這個健身產業"},{"start":6736.64,"end":6739.64,"text":"健身房他也有這些相關的規定"},{"start":6739.64,"end":6743.64,"text":"你到一定金額預收多少你必須要履約能力"},{"start":6743.64,"end":6744.64,"text":"要有信託等等的"},{"start":6744.64,"end":6748.64,"text":"這些是我們即將馬上要來處理的問題是不是"},{"start":6748.64,"end":6749.64,"text":"是"},{"start":6749.64,"end":6751.64,"text":"那董事長你覺得接下來要怎麼處理"},{"start":6751.64,"end":6757.64,"text":"當然我們現階段除了這些投資人之外"},{"start":6757.64,"end":6762.64,"text":"那有沒有任何的租客或者是房東找我們住都中心"},{"start":6762.64,"end":6765.64,"text":"大家只是在問接下來會怎麼樣"},{"start":6765.64,"end":6768.64,"text":"但是並沒有誰表達說他已經受到損害了"},{"start":6768.64,"end":6769.64,"text":"因為服務都還在"},{"start":6769.64,"end":6772.64,"text":"所以這個部分持續都還在營運中"},{"start":6772.64,"end":6777.64,"text":"那這個現在的制度底下可以來保障房東房客權益的資源"},{"start":6777.64,"end":6779.64,"text":"包含營業保"},{"start":6779.64,"end":6782.64,"text":"依照租用專法的營業保證金"},{"start":6782.64,"end":6785.64,"text":"那在中央本的社會住宅包租代管"},{"start":6785.64,"end":6787.64,"text":"我們還有押租金專戶"},{"start":6787.64,"end":6789.64,"text":"那這個部分"},{"start":6789.64,"end":6791.64,"text":"繼續卸的有1000多萬"},{"start":6791.64,"end":6792.64,"text":"造機有3000多萬"},{"start":6792.64,"end":6795.64,"text":"這個其實還是可以往上調的"},{"start":6795.64,"end":6796.64,"text":"如果他的這些押金"},{"start":6796.64,"end":6802.64,"text":"甚至我們還有我們預計本來要付給這兩家公司的一些服務費用"},{"start":6802.64,"end":6804.64,"text":"我們現在都已經先暫時停下來"},{"start":6804.64,"end":6807.64,"text":"我們就是要馬上立即保護"},{"start":6807.64,"end":6810.64,"text":"保護不管是房東或者是房客相關這些合約的問題"},{"start":6810.64,"end":6814.64,"text":"現在的制度已經有這些資源了"},{"start":6814.64,"end":6817.64,"text":"那當然委員提到了一些強化的機制"},{"start":6817.64,"end":6821.64,"text":"那我會跟內政部跟地方政府大家一起來溝通"},{"start":6821.64,"end":6825.64,"text":"能夠再強化的我們絕對會一定會虛心的接受"},{"start":6825.64,"end":6826.64,"text":"然後來檢討"},{"start":6833.53,"end":6835.53,"text":"好 下回請王美慧委員發言質詢"},{"start":6843.67,"end":6845.67,"text":"主席 咱這裡發進去"},{"start":6851.62,"end":6852.62,"text":"我們來囉"},{"start":6855.23,"end":6859.23,"text":"當時政府很早在這個過程當中"},{"start":6859.68,"end":6861.68,"text":"一起爭鬥"},{"start":6862.54,"end":6863.54,"text":"出場"},{"start":6863.54,"end":6867.54,"text":"當我們內政部的次長"},{"start":6867.54,"end":6869.54,"text":"在這個過程當中"},{"start":6869.54,"end":6871.54,"text":"主要的說法到現在"},{"start":6871.54,"end":6875.54,"text":"都是要照顧這些六小"},{"start":6876.05,"end":6878.05,"text":"還是 怎麼才好呢"},{"start":6878.85,"end":6879.85,"text":"因為說實在的"},{"start":6879.85,"end":6883.85,"text":"現在的地也好 房也好"},{"start":6883.85,"end":6886.85,"text":"是非常的過又過"},{"start":6887.44,"end":6889.44,"text":"在這個過程當中"},{"start":6889.71,"end":6891.71,"text":"我可以做直達議"},{"start":6891.71,"end":6894.71,"text":"來代表做立法委員"},{"start":6895.22,"end":6897.22,"text":"在這個過程當中"},{"start":6897.22,"end":6900.22,"text":"跟議區都沒有社會主宰"},{"start":6900.84,"end":6901.84,"text":"幹嘛 幹嘛笑"},{"start":6902.72,"end":6905.72,"text":"你們的單位 給他一次機會"},{"start":6906.38,"end":6909.38,"text":"因為剛才我們都在說"},{"start":6909.38,"end":6912.38,"text":"結果在地上問 地上又不需要"},{"start":6913.09,"end":6915.09,"text":"公視在當初中"},{"start":6915.46,"end":6918.46,"text":"在我地上來看的時候"},{"start":6918.46,"end":6920.46,"text":"是非常的不需要"},{"start":6921.5,"end":6923.5,"text":"在這個過程當中"},{"start":6923.78,"end":6925.78,"text":"我清楚三位"},{"start":6925.78,"end":6927.78,"text":"一個友中"},{"start":6927.78,"end":6929.78,"text":"一個保愛"},{"start":6929.78,"end":6931.78,"text":"一個安寧"},{"start":6931.78,"end":6933.78,"text":"在這個過程當中"},{"start":6933.97,"end":6935.97,"text":"但一定有中"},{"start":6936.48,"end":6937.48,"text":"你 揍我"},{"start":6941.29,"end":6943.29,"text":"董事長 你怎麼可以"},{"start":6943.29,"end":6944.29,"text":"就這個機會"},{"start":6945.17,"end":6948.17,"text":"來說 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":"可是如果我們用"},{"start":7628.33,"end":7629.33,"text":"試辦的方式"},{"start":7629.33,"end":7630.33,"text":"來試試看這樣子的"},{"start":7630.33,"end":7633.33,"text":"二十年的長住婚育宅"},{"start":7633.33,"end":7634.33,"text":"是不是真的能夠鼓勵"},{"start":7634.33,"end":7635.33,"text":"年輕人婚育"},{"start":7635.33,"end":7637.33,"text":"那我想這是一個好的方法"},{"start":7637.33,"end":7638.33,"text":"所以我會"},{"start":7638.33,"end":7639.33,"text":"如果我有機會"},{"start":7639.33,"end":7640.33,"text":"我一定來試辦這樣子"},{"start":7640.33,"end":7642.33,"text":"這樣的青年婚育宅"},{"start":7642.33,"end":7643.33,"text":"二十年長住型"},{"start":7643.33,"end":7644.33,"text":"在新北市"},{"start":7644.33,"end":7646.33,"text":"好那第二個包租代管"},{"start":7646.33,"end":7648.33,"text":"那我看兩位是誰可以回答"},{"start":7648.33,"end":7649.33,"text":"都沒有問題"},{"start":7649.33,"end":7650.33,"text":"這個包租代管"},{"start":7650.33,"end":7652.33,"text":"等於是我們在這幾年"},{"start":7652.33,"end":7653.33,"text":"從小英總統上任之後"},{"start":7653.33,"end":7655.33,"text":"創造出來的一個新制度"},{"start":7655.33,"end":7657.33,"text":"而事實上它非常非常的成功"},{"start":7657.33,"end":7659.33,"text":"因為它把社會上"},{"start":7659.33,"end":7661.33,"text":"空於閒住的住屋房舍"},{"start":7661.33,"end":7663.33,"text":"拿出來變成是給市"},{"start":7663.33,"end":7665.33,"text":"這個一般社會大眾"},{"start":7665.33,"end":7666.33,"text":"有需要的人"},{"start":7666.33,"end":7668.33,"text":"所以等於創造三贏的狀態"},{"start":7668.33,"end":7670.33,"text":"但是就我的觀察"},{"start":7670.33,"end":7671.33,"text":"其實現在包租代管"},{"start":7671.33,"end":7673.33,"text":"其實應該成熟到"},{"start":7673.33,"end":7675.33,"text":"可以有更細緻的階段"},{"start":7675.33,"end":7676.33,"text":"也就是說"},{"start":7676.33,"end":7678.33,"text":"我覺得它其實可以一樣"},{"start":7678.33,"end":7680.33,"text":"再向租金補貼也好"},{"start":7680.33,"end":7681.33,"text":"或者是社宅也好"},{"start":7681.33,"end":7683.33,"text":"它因為承租人"},{"start":7683.33,"end":7685.33,"text":"需求者的身分不同"},{"start":7685.33,"end":7687.33,"text":"也許我們可以創造出"},{"start":7687.33,"end":7689.33,"text":"不同類型的包租代管方案"},{"start":7689.33,"end":7691.33,"text":"專門給這樣的一個特定族群"},{"start":7691.33,"end":7693.33,"text":"是不是能夠更達到"},{"start":7693.33,"end":7695.33,"text":"照顧社會大眾的需求呢"},{"start":7695.33,"end":7697.33,"text":"我提出的是第一個"},{"start":7697.33,"end":7698.33,"text":"我認為包租代管"},{"start":7698.33,"end":7700.33,"text":"可以優先租給高齡長者"},{"start":7700.33,"end":7702.33,"text":"這個高齡長者的定義如何"},{"start":7702.33,"end":7704.33,"text":"我們可以大家細步再來討論"},{"start":7704.33,"end":7706.33,"text":"但我覺得有適合的房型"},{"start":7706.33,"end":7708.33,"text":"給適當的高齡長者"},{"start":7708.33,"end":7709.33,"text":"這是用專案的"},{"start":7709.33,"end":7711.33,"text":"讓他們不用跟別人搶"},{"start":7711.33,"end":7712.33,"text":"讓他們知道"},{"start":7712.33,"end":7714.33,"text":"這是政府有把關過的"},{"start":7714.33,"end":7716.33,"text":"適合高齡長者的住宅"},{"start":7716.33,"end":7718.33,"text":"而從包租代管快速的"},{"start":7718.33,"end":7720.33,"text":"達到這樣的房舍取得"},{"start":7720.33,"end":7722.33,"text":"並且有政府的支持"},{"start":7722.33,"end":7723.33,"text":"我覺得高齡長者"},{"start":7723.33,"end":7725.33,"text":"是可以有的一個專案"},{"start":7725.33,"end":7726.33,"text":"另外一個的"},{"start":7726.33,"end":7727.33,"text":"我非常希望"},{"start":7727.33,"end":7728.33,"text":"我自己有機會"},{"start":7728.33,"end":7729.33,"text":"可以實施的"},{"start":7729.33,"end":7730.33,"text":"在新北市"},{"start":7730.33,"end":7732.33,"text":"就是在大學旁邊"},{"start":7732.33,"end":7733.33,"text":"大學旁邊"},{"start":7733.33,"end":7734.33,"text":"學生其實很多"},{"start":7734.33,"end":7736.33,"text":"學生宿舍永遠不夠"},{"start":7736.33,"end":7737.33,"text":"學生宿舍"},{"start":7737.33,"end":7738.33,"text":"那你一棟一棟蓋"},{"start":7738.33,"end":7739.33,"text":"當然可以啦"},{"start":7739.33,"end":7741.33,"text":"但是緩不濟急"},{"start":7741.33,"end":7743.33,"text":"所以我認為包租代管"},{"start":7743.33,"end":7745.33,"text":"在大學旁邊附近"},{"start":7745.33,"end":7747.33,"text":"變成是政府和包租業者的"},{"start":7747.33,"end":7749.33,"text":"一個推動的平台"},{"start":7749.33,"end":7750.33,"text":"讓學生知道"},{"start":7750.33,"end":7751.33,"text":"來這裡找的房子"},{"start":7751.33,"end":7753.33,"text":"都是有保障的"},{"start":7753.33,"end":7754.33,"text":"房東是好人"},{"start":7754.33,"end":7755.33,"text":"租金是適當的"},{"start":7755.33,"end":7758.33,"text":"那房型也是品質不錯的"},{"start":7758.33,"end":7760.33,"text":"那如果是這樣的話"},{"start":7760.33,"end":7762.33,"text":"學生是不是可以減少很多"},{"start":7762.33,"end":7765.33,"text":"誤觸壞房東的風險"},{"start":7765.33,"end":7767.33,"text":"那甚至是在這裡"},{"start":7767.33,"end":7768.33,"text":"我們可以快速的"},{"start":7768.33,"end":7770.33,"text":"完成就學的準備"},{"start":7770.33,"end":7772.33,"text":"所以我認為包租代管"},{"start":7772.33,"end":7775.33,"text":"是可以提出專案的需求"},{"start":7775.33,"end":7776.33,"text":"來管理"},{"start":7776.33,"end":7777.33,"text":"那我自己提出兩個"},{"start":7777.33,"end":7778.33,"text":"一個是高齡"},{"start":7778.33,"end":7779.33,"text":"一個是學生"},{"start":7779.33,"end":7781.33,"text":"那不曉得部長或董事長"},{"start":7781.33,"end":7782.33,"text":"這邊怎麼看"},{"start":7782.33,"end":7783.33,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":7783.33,"end":7784.33,"text":"委員的真知灼見"},{"start":7784.33,"end":7786.33,"text":"我們競表贊成"},{"start":7786.33,"end":7787.33,"text":"那跟委員補充"},{"start":7787.33,"end":7788.33,"text":"那這樣的話"},{"start":7788.33,"end":7789.33,"text":"就是中央開"},{"start":7789.33,"end":7790.33,"text":"我也贊成"},{"start":7790.33,"end":7791.33,"text":"然後這錢你出"},{"start":7791.33,"end":7792.33,"text":"不錯啊"},{"start":7792.33,"end":7793.33,"text":"對啊"},{"start":7793.33,"end":7794.33,"text":"因為以後我新北市的話"},{"start":7794.33,"end":7796.33,"text":"我當然希望中央出錢"},{"start":7796.33,"end":7798.33,"text":"那個財政收支劃分法裡面"},{"start":7798.33,"end":7799.33,"text":"還是有一定的比例"},{"start":7799.33,"end":7800.33,"text":"我還是爭取"},{"start":7800.33,"end":7801.33,"text":"對"},{"start":7801.33,"end":7802.33,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":7802.33,"end":7803.33,"text":"確實沒有錯"},{"start":7803.33,"end":7804.33,"text":"我們在推出包租代管的時候"},{"start":7804.33,"end":7806.33,"text":"已經把這個有效的"},{"start":7806.33,"end":7807.33,"text":"空餘屋下降的量"},{"start":7807.33,"end":7809.33,"text":"達到三萬多戶"},{"start":7809.33,"end":7810.33,"text":"那這個我想"},{"start":7810.33,"end":7812.33,"text":"不管是從環境保護"},{"start":7812.33,"end":7813.33,"text":"或是從這個"},{"start":7813.33,"end":7814.33,"text":"空餘屋的這個"},{"start":7814.33,"end":7815.33,"text":"聚化市場來講"},{"start":7815.33,"end":7817.33,"text":"其實是一個不錯的市場供給"},{"start":7817.33,"end":7819.33,"text":"那您所提到的就是"},{"start":7819.33,"end":7820.33,"text":"能不能根據在社區裡面"},{"start":7820.33,"end":7822.33,"text":"這個長照族群裡面"},{"start":7822.33,"end":7825.33,"text":"有沒有包租代管的這個專案"},{"start":7825.33,"end":7826.33,"text":"我覺得可以考慮"},{"start":7826.33,"end":7828.33,"text":"學生的教育族群裡面"},{"start":7828.33,"end":7829.33,"text":"有沒有屬於學生的這個"},{"start":7829.33,"end":7831.33,"text":"包租代管的專案"},{"start":7831.33,"end":7832.33,"text":"我想我們可以來考慮"},{"start":7832.33,"end":7834.33,"text":"那也非常希望說"},{"start":7834.33,"end":7836.33,"text":"如果這個委員有機會"},{"start":7836.33,"end":7838.33,"text":"可以在新北市實施這樣的政見"},{"start":7838.33,"end":7839.33,"text":"那我們會來支持"},{"start":7839.33,"end":7840.33,"text":"非常感謝部長"},{"start":7840.33,"end":7841.33,"text":"那這個部分"},{"start":7841.33,"end":7842.33,"text":"我們是不是也可以請"},{"start":7842.33,"end":7843.33,"text":"董事長這邊"},{"start":7843.33,"end":7844.33,"text":"也再多一點的說明"},{"start":7844.33,"end":7846.33,"text":"就是如果在這樣子的方案"},{"start":7846.33,"end":7847.33,"text":"是可行的狀態的話"},{"start":7847.33,"end":7848.33,"text":"其實我也認為"},{"start":7848.33,"end":7850.33,"text":"甚至是可以提出更多的誘因"},{"start":7850.33,"end":7854.33,"text":"比如說資訊可以更適當"},{"start":7854.33,"end":7856.33,"text":"更容易的傳達到需要的族群"},{"start":7857.33,"end":7859.33,"text":"那甚至是在補貼的部分或等等"},{"start":7859.33,"end":7861.33,"text":"是不是還有其他的鼓勵措施"},{"start":7861.33,"end":7862.33,"text":"可以讓這種方案"},{"start":7862.33,"end":7864.33,"text":"是可以更推行的"},{"start":7864.33,"end":7865.33,"text":"不曉得董事長這邊"},{"start":7865.33,"end":7866.33,"text":"因為您是專家"},{"start":7866.33,"end":7867.33,"text":"所以第一贊不贊成"},{"start":7867.33,"end":7868.33,"text":"第二如果是贊成"},{"start":7868.33,"end":7870.33,"text":"然後讓這些方案是可以"},{"start":7870.33,"end":7872.33,"text":"專門型的包租代管方案"},{"start":7872.33,"end":7873.33,"text":"可以順利上路的話"},{"start":7873.33,"end":7875.33,"text":"你會認為還可以提供什麼樣的誘因"},{"start":7877.06,"end":7878.06,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":7878.06,"end":7882.06,"text":"當然其實社宅包租代管的多元發展"},{"start":7882.06,"end":7885.06,"text":"絕對是未來會發生的趨勢"},{"start":7885.06,"end":7887.06,"text":"就是不可擋"},{"start":7887.06,"end":7889.06,"text":"那至少當然我們現階段"},{"start":7889.06,"end":7891.06,"text":"在所謂的社宅這項的部分"},{"start":7891.06,"end":7896.06,"text":"那弱勢比例有40%的一個保障"},{"start":7896.06,"end":7900.06,"text":"那對於婚姻宅也有一定40%的一個"},{"start":7900.06,"end":7902.06,"text":"那都已經跟業者再來嘗試"},{"start":7902.06,"end":7904.06,"text":"我們針對某一類族群"},{"start":7904.06,"end":7906.06,"text":"怎麼樣在這場的影響底下"},{"start":7906.06,"end":7911.06,"text":"來建立出該有的保障的比例"},{"start":7912.38,"end":7916.38,"text":"那這個部分在接下來這段時間練兵之後"},{"start":7916.38,"end":7920.38,"text":"其實當然我們可以開始再開出可能更多元"},{"start":7920.38,"end":7923.38,"text":"那來設計什麼樣的房型適合什麼樣的人"},{"start":7923.38,"end":7925.38,"text":"來讓業者來再往下"},{"start":7925.38,"end":7927.38,"text":"我認為至少我的這兩種類型裡面"},{"start":7927.38,"end":7930.38,"text":"在大學城旁邊的學生包租代管方案"},{"start":7930.38,"end":7932.38,"text":"就可以先行開始研議了"},{"start":7932.38,"end":7935.38,"text":"因為包括他們的合約的方式"},{"start":7935.38,"end":7938.38,"text":"那是不是可以讓雙方更容易覺得說要有保障"},{"start":7938.38,"end":7939.38,"text":"然後對學生的"},{"start":7939.38,"end":7942.38,"text":"因為他的租期是跟配合學期制的"},{"start":7942.38,"end":7944.38,"text":"然後甚至是學年制的"},{"start":7944.38,"end":7945.38,"text":"所以怎麼個設計法"},{"start":7945.38,"end":7946.38,"text":"我覺得這個都可以討論"},{"start":7946.38,"end":7950.38,"text":"這個部分其實一方面有些已經在做了"},{"start":7950.38,"end":7953.38,"text":"但是大學旁邊很多是大的大房東"},{"start":7953.38,"end":7954.38,"text":"自己在經營的"},{"start":7954.38,"end":7958.38,"text":"那他要不要加入包租代管的這一段"},{"start":7958.38,"end":7960.38,"text":"我覺得我們在制度上面法令上面"},{"start":7960.38,"end":7962.38,"text":"還可以再來加強"},{"start":7962.38,"end":7964.38,"text":"正是因為有很多是大房東"},{"start":7964.38,"end":7966.38,"text":"所以我需要政府作風"},{"start":7966.38,"end":7968.38,"text":"他習慣自己管"},{"start":7968.38,"end":7970.38,"text":"沒有再委託給業者管"},{"start":7970.38,"end":7973.38,"text":"那這個部分其實我相信後面"},{"start":7973.38,"end":7976.38,"text":"還有可以再強化的一些法令基礎"},{"start":7976.38,"end":7977.38,"text":"好那因為時間的關係"},{"star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謝謝部長"},{"start":8139.74,"end":8140.74,"text":"以上謝謝"},{"start":8145.39,"end":8146.39,"text":"好 休息五分鐘"},{"start":8200.22,"end":8202.22,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8929.86,"end":8930.86,"text":"好 我們繼續開會"},{"start":8930.86,"end":8931.86,"text":"那先跟委員報歉"},{"start":8931.86,"end":8934.86,"text":"這個在吳靜敏委員質詢前"},{"start":8934.86,"end":8936.86,"text":"因為上半場的質詢"},{"start":8936.86,"end":8938.86,"text":"有關本席以及王美慧委員"},{"start":8938.86,"end":8939.86,"text":"所質詢事項"},{"start":8939.86,"end":8941.86,"text":"可能同仁跟部長所提供資訊"},{"start":8941.86,"end":8942.86,"text":"與事實有些落差"},{"start":8942.86,"end":8944.86,"text":"我們是不是先請部長補充說明一下"},{"start":8949.4,"end":8950.4,"text":"謝謝昭委"},{"start":8950.4,"end":8953.4,"text":"在我們在備詢的過程當中"},{"start":8953.4,"end":8954.4,"text":"有一些資訊的落差"},{"start":8954.4,"end":8955.4,"text":"我想在這個地方"},{"start":8955.4,"end":8957.4,"text":"跟大家報告一下"},{"start":8957.4,"end":8958.4,"text":"那個六委員所提到"},{"start":8958.4,"end":8960.4,"text":"有關白袍湖的這個案件"},{"start":8960.4,"end":8962.4,"text":"原來編列是1.59億元"},{"start":8962.4,"end":8965.4,"text":"那114年被刪1.24元"},{"start":8965.4,"end":8968.4,"text":"到114年追加預算的時候"},{"start":8968.4,"end":8970.4,"text":"是追加1.03億元"},{"start":8970.4,"end":8972.4,"text":"那那個時候是8月29三讀通過"},{"start":8972.4,"end":8974.4,"text":"未來要處理其他的開發"},{"start":8974.4,"end":8977.4,"text":"或是其他的相關的行政程序"},{"start":8977.4,"end":8978.4,"text":"會來不及"},{"start":8978.4,"end":8983.4,"text":"所以我們在115年保留1.03億元的時候"},{"start":8983.4,"end":8985.4,"text":"到目前為止還沒有完成"},{"start":8985.4,"end":8987.4,"text":"這個保留預算的執行"},{"start":8987.4,"end":8990.4,"text":"那115年6月18日報行政院"},{"start":8990.4,"end":8991.4,"text":"那行政院還沒有核定下來"},{"start":8993.21,"end":8995.21,"text":"對不起 那個文委會委員所提到"},{"start":8995.21,"end":8998.21,"text":"有關嘉義的安寮好市的部分"},{"start":8998.21,"end":9000.21,"text":"那跟文委員補充報告一下"},{"start":9000.21,"end":9002.21,"text":"就是安寮好市"},{"start":9002.21,"end":9004.21,"text":"如果是有這個土資方"},{"start":9004.21,"end":9005.21,"text":"出現狀況的時候"},{"start":9005.21,"end":9007.21,"text":"我們會國土署來安排"},{"start":9007.21,"end":9009.21,"text":"協調地方的土資廠"},{"start":9009.21,"end":9011.21,"text":"來協助處理土資的去化方向"},{"start":9011.21,"end":9013.21,"text":"然後讓社會住宅的進度"},{"start":9013.21,"end":9015.21,"text":"會比較快一點 加速完成"},{"start":9023.28,"end":9025.28,"text":"我再補充更精確"},{"start":9025.28,"end":9028.28,"text":"還有落差2100萬是補助給新北市政府的"},{"start":9028.28,"end":9031.28,"text":"其實也是有含在不同的項目裡面"},{"start":9031.28,"end":9033.28,"text":"那這個就跟中央的預算無關"},{"start":9033.28,"end":9035.28,"text":"抱歉 那我們繼續開會"},{"start":9035.28,"end":9037.28,"text":"我們接下來請吳其民委員發言質詢"},{"start":9048.3,"end":9050.3,"text":"主席 我們議會總人 前內政部長"},{"start":9052,"end":9054,"text":"以及我們國土署署長"},{"start":9054,"end":9056,"text":"還有住置中心董事長"},{"start":9056.37,"end":9058.37,"text":"地政司司長"},{"start":9059.68,"end":9061.68,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":9061.72,"end":9063.72,"text":"今天大家討論社會住宅"},{"start":9063.72,"end":9065.72,"text":"這個興建已包住代管"},{"start":9065.72,"end":9067.72,"text":"那本行在這邊"},{"start":9067.72,"end":9069.72,"text":"看到這個事跡"},{"start":9069.72,"end":9071.72,"text":"真的有點嚇到"},{"start":9071.72,"end":9073.72,"text":"就近期我們那個造基"},{"start":9073.72,"end":9075.72,"text":"房屋管理包住代管"},{"start":9075.72,"end":9077.72,"text":"還有寄居卸"},{"start":9077.72,"end":9079.72,"text":"置屋這兩家公司"},{"start":9079.72,"end":9081.72,"text":"所占的比例"},{"start":9081.72,"end":9083.72,"text":"對主要是比例"},{"start":9083.72,"end":9085.72,"text":"還有公司的危機"},{"start":9085.72,"end":9087.72,"text":"以及掏空的風險"},{"start":9087.72,"end":9089.72,"text":"這個部分"},{"start":9089.72,"end":9091.72,"text":"真的是我們都要去注意"},{"start":9091.72,"end":9093.72,"text":"不能說"},{"start":9093.72,"end":9095.72,"text":"我們推動的一個包住代管"},{"start":9095.72,"end":9097.72,"text":"社會住宅"},{"start":9097.72,"end":9099.72,"text":"這都是很好的政策"},{"start":9099.72,"end":9101.72,"text":"這也是我們蔡英文的時代所推動的"},{"start":9101.72,"end":9103.72,"text":"所推動的"},{"start":9103.72,"end":9105.72,"text":"大家都看到這個成果"},{"start":9105.72,"end":9107.72,"text":"那後來才看到這個"},{"start":9107.72,"end":9109.72,"text":"怎麼會這樣"},{"start":9109.72,"end":9111.72,"text":"所以請我們董事長來做說明好不好"},{"start":9111.45,"end":9113.45,"text":"好 董事長 英文"},{"start":9113.45,"end":9115.45,"text":"第一 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司長"},{"start":9423.44,"end":9425.44,"text":"現在很多民眾"},{"start":9425.44,"end":9427.44,"text":"他們有疑慮"},{"start":9427.44,"end":9429.44,"text":"我們就在適當的時段"},{"start":9429.44,"end":9431.44,"text":"跟民眾來做過動"},{"start":9431.44,"end":9433.44,"text":"OK 好沒問題"},{"start":9433.44,"end":9435.44,"text":"那我們請國土事務署長"},{"start":9438.07,"end":9440.07,"text":"好 司長"},{"start":9440.07,"end":9442.07,"text":"剛才王美慧"},{"start":9442.07,"end":9444.07,"text":"她說得很清楚"},{"start":9444.07,"end":9446.07,"text":"因為現在全國都面臨土方之亂"},{"start":9446.07,"end":9448.07,"text":"這點都請你很清楚"},{"start":9448.07,"end":9450.07,"text":"其實土方之亂"},{"start":9450.07,"end":9452.07,"text":"這當然是一個政策"},{"start":9452.07,"end":9454.07,"text":"要改變之前你配套一定要先出來"},{"start":9454.07,"end":9456.07,"text":"不然都會去遇到這個問題"},{"start":9456.07,"end":9458.07,"text":"所以我們做民意代表"},{"start":9458.07,"end":9460.07,"text":"我們的壓力都很大"},{"start":9460.07,"end":9462.07,"text":"遇到的問題大家就心麻煩"},{"start":9463.14,"end":9465.14,"text":"如果要怎麼解決"},{"start":9465.14,"end":9467.14,"text":"現在我們不是辦法解決了"},{"start":9466.67,"end":9468.67,"text":"所以說我們中方有任何政策"},{"start":9468.67,"end":9470.67,"text":"之前性行為溝通"},{"start":9470.67,"end":9472.67,"text":"才來做改變"},{"start":9472.67,"end":9474.67,"text":"不然你會這個土方之亂"},{"start":9474.67,"end":9476.67,"text":"你現在全國都在罵"},{"start":9476.67,"end":9478.67,"text":"這點就是說"},{"start":9478.67,"end":9480.67,"text":"我要在這個時段"},{"start":9480.67,"end":9482.67,"text":"要拜託你們一定要拿出"},{"start":9482.67,"end":9484.67,"text":"有改善"},{"start":9484.67,"end":9486.67,"text":"有辦法配套的"},{"start":9486.67,"end":9488.67,"text":"才來實施"},{"start":9488.67,"end":9490.67,"text":"我們現在下半年開始"},{"start":9490.67,"end":9492.67,"text":"都有法規在修訂"},{"start":9492.67,"end":9494.67,"text":"我們把輸給他們的投豐"},{"start":9494.67,"end":9496.67,"text":"輸給他們的投豐可以做交換"},{"start":9496.67,"end":9498.67,"text":"這部分就是說"},{"start":9498.67,"end":9500.67,"text":"A到B到C"},{"start":9500.67,"end":9502.67,"text":"希望的增加"},{"start":9502.67,"end":9504.67,"text":"所以這都有跟台中"},{"start":9504.67,"end":9506.67,"text":"經過的溝通也有開過的會"},{"start":9506.67,"end":9508.67,"text":"大約在年底前會完成修法"},{"start":9508.67,"end":9510.67,"text":"好"},{"start":9510.67,"end":9512.67,"text":"因為剛才美惠說"},{"start":9512.67,"end":9514.67,"text":"其實我們地方的民意代表"},{"start":9514.67,"end":9516.67,"text":"大家都有這個壓力存在"},{"start":9516.67,"end":9518.67,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":9523.66,"end":9525.66,"text":"我們下一位請劉淑賓委員發言質詢"},{"start":9540.65,"end":9542.65,"text":"好謝謝主席"},{"start":9542.65,"end":9544.65,"text":"有請內政部的部長"},{"start":9549.34,"end":9551.34,"text":"好部長好"},{"start":9551.34,"end":9553.34,"text":"那總統在選前"},{"start":9553.34,"end":9555.34,"text":"他已經提出了"},{"start":9555.34,"end":9557.34,"text":"要信誓旦旦的表示國家希望"},{"start":9557.34,"end":9559.34,"text":"工程當中承諾要"},{"start":9559.34,"end":9561.34,"text":"新增13萬戶的社會"},{"start":9561.34,"end":9563.34,"text":"住宅但是根據你們"},{"start":9563.34,"end":9565.34,"text":"最新的計畫"},{"start":9565.34,"end":9567.34,"text":"13萬戶的目標"},{"start":9567.34,"end":9569.34,"text":"到現在被砍到只剩下"},{"start":9569.34,"end":9571.34,"text":"3萬戶"},{"start":9571.34,"end":9573.34,"text":"那這3萬戶裡面還有2.5萬戶"},{"start":9573.34,"end":9575.34,"text":"是蔡政府時期延續的規劃"},{"start":9575.34,"end":9577.34,"text":"那真正要去新增"},{"start":9577.34,"end":9579.34,"text":"那新增的到117年"},{"start":9579.34,"end":9581.34,"text":"開始每年就只有1000戶"},{"start":9581.34,"end":9583.34,"text":"那承諾13萬戶"},{"start":9583.34,"end":9585.34,"text":"現在變3萬戶是不是"},{"start":9585.34,"end":9587.34,"text":"政策太飄飄"},{"start":9587.17,"end":9589.17,"text":"謝謝委員關心賴總統的政見"},{"start":9589.17,"end":9591.17,"text":"我們在多次"},{"start":9591.17,"end":9593.17,"text":"跟委員報告的時候都提到"},{"start":9593.17,"end":9595.17,"text":"13萬戶的目標沒有變"},{"start":9595.17,"end":9597.17,"text":"但是直接新建改成"},{"start":9597.17,"end":9599.17,"text":"多元新辦那包括"},{"start":9599.17,"end":9601.17,"text":"我們可能榮獎的部分希望能夠"},{"start":9601.17,"end":9603.17,"text":"民間的業者也一起加入"},{"start":9603.17,"end":9605.17,"text":"包括都更分回等等這些"},{"start":9605.17,"end":9607.17,"text":"所以還是跟委員報告你現在"},{"start":9607.17,"end":9609.17,"text":"所說的這個3萬戶的部分是我們"},{"start":9609.17,"end":9611.17,"text":"現階段第一階段要完成的3萬戶"},{"start":9611.17,"end":9613.17,"text":"這個是沒有問題因為這跟地方政府"},{"start":9613.17,"end":9615.17,"text":"已經都盤點好了那未來的"},{"start":9615.17,"end":9617.17,"text":"10萬戶的部分的話我們會"},{"start":9617.17,"end":9619.17,"text":"一定持續的努力"},{"start":9619.17,"end":9621.17,"text":"希望在時間內可以達成這個目標"},{"start":9621.17,"end":9623.17,"text":"好那我知道你們有包括"},{"start":9623.17,"end":9625.17,"text":"多元的這樣子的"},{"start":9625.17,"end":9627.17,"text":"房屋政策"},{"start":9627.17,"end":9629.17,"text":"那請問一下因為這就是包括"},{"start":9629.17,"end":9631.17,"text":"包租代管跟租金補貼"},{"start":9631.17,"end":9633.17,"text":"那在這個部分的時候"},{"start":9633.17,"end":9635.17,"text":"我想要問的是"},{"start":9635.17,"end":9637.17,"text":"這個部分的"},{"start":9638.09,"end":9640.09,"text":"這部分的租金的房價"},{"start":9640.09,"end":9642.09,"text":"租金的指數上面你們有沒有去"},{"start":9642.09,"end":9644.09,"text":"做調查"},{"start":9643.94,"end":9645.94,"text":"我們當然有做調查才能"},{"start":9645.94,"end":9647.94,"text":"訂定租金的這個分級"},{"start":9648.09,"end":9650.09,"text":"對那你們調查的結果是"},{"start":9650.09,"end":9652.09,"text":"我是不是請我們地政司長跟您"},{"start":9652.09,"end":9654.09,"text":"報告一下好不好"},{"start":9657.86,"end":9659.86,"text":"報告委員那個我們每半年"},{"start":9659.86,"end":9661.86,"text":"每半年都會透過我們現在的"},{"start":9661.86,"end":9663.86,"text":"租金補貼的資料"},{"start":9663.86,"end":9665.86,"text":"那像上一期的部分的話"},{"start":9665.86,"end":9667.86,"text":"每半年都會公布一個租金的"},{"start":9667.86,"end":9669.86,"text":"統計分析"},{"start":9669.86,"end":9671.86,"text":"不是統計他的"},{"start":9671.86,"end":9673.86,"text":"中位數的"},{"start":9673.86,"end":9675.86,"text":"情況每個行政區的"},{"start":9675.86,"end":9677.86,"text":"中位數的情況"},{"start":9677.86,"end":9679.86,"text":"每半年發布像上一期"},{"start":9679.86,"end":9681.86,"text":"就用70萬筆的租金補貼的資料"},{"start":9681.86,"end":9683.86,"text":"來做統計"},{"start":9683.97,"end":9685.97,"text":"你們我看到的內政部自己在7月的"},{"start":9685.97,"end":9687.97,"text":"報告當中是上揚的趨勢"},{"start":9687.97,"end":9689.97,"text":"這整體是上揚的趨勢"},{"start":9689.97,"end":9691.97,"text":"沒有沒有"},{"start":9691.97,"end":9693.97,"text":"這一115年"},{"start":9693.97,"end":9695.97,"text":"上半年的現在應該會在"},{"start":9695.97,"end":9697.97,"text":"近期會公布"},{"start":9697.97,"end":9699.97,"text":"那我們從我們過去幾期"},{"start":9699.97,"end":9701.97,"text":"的調查資料其實整個"},{"start":9701.97,"end":9703.97,"text":"租金的水準都是平穩的"},{"start":9703.97,"end":9705.97,"text":"好謝謝那我請問"},{"start":9705.97,"end":9707.97,"text":"內政部長因為你剛才在回答"},{"start":9707.97,"end":9709.97,"text":"吳其民委員的時候你也提到說"},{"start":9709.97,"end":9711.97,"text":"現在的社會住宅"},{"start":9711.97,"end":9713.97,"text":"要夠的話才能夠達到"},{"start":9713.97,"end":9715.97,"text":"讓這樣的租金的房價才會降下來"},{"start":9715.97,"end":9717.97,"text":"這部分"},{"start":9717.97,"end":9719.97,"text":"可是剛才你提到是"},{"start":9719.97,"end":9721.97,"text":"這個剛才的就是8年之內"},{"start":9721.97,"end":9723.97,"text":"在8年之內的這個13萬的"},{"start":9725.63,"end":9727.63,"text":"社會住宅的量才是確定"},{"start":9728.16,"end":9730.16,"text":"但是你們就不知道什麼時候"},{"start":9730.16,"end":9732.16,"text":"是委員我想我"},{"start":9732.16,"end":9734.16,"text":"我再把您提的問題我們"},{"start":9734.16,"end":9736.16,"text":"再重新講一次第一個就是"},{"start":9736.16,"end":9738.16,"text":"13萬戶的目標沒有改變"},{"start":9738.16,"end":9740.16,"text":"是在8年之內嗎原來"},{"start":9740.16,"end":9742.16,"text":"的直接興辦我們現在改成多元"},{"start":9742.16,"end":9744.16,"text":"興辦那同時呢我們"},{"start":9744.16,"end":9746.16,"text":"在去年所修的 雲淡重建說了"},{"start":9746.16,"end":9748.16,"text":"就是那請問你們"},{"start":9748.16,"end":9750.16,"text":"那後面的"},{"start":9749.87,"end":9751.87,"text":"那個10萬是要什麼時候"},{"start":9751.87,"end":9753.87,"text":"建立起來啊是我就是跟委員要補充"},{"start":9753.87,"end":9755.87,"text":"這個部分第一個我們會從這個"},{"start":9755.87,"end":9757.87,"text":"現在的社會住宅"},{"start":9757.87,"end":9759.87,"text":"的包租代管裡面"},{"start":9759.87,"end":9761.87,"text":"也會有婚禦宅你一定會講完"},{"start":9761.87,"end":9763.87,"text":"你一定會講完"},{"start":9763.87,"end":9765.87,"text":"然後再來就是說在"},{"start":9765.87,"end":9767.87,"text":"我們原來的宿地裡面所"},{"start":9767.87,"end":9769.87,"text":"蓋的社會住宅當然這是大家"},{"start":9769.87,"end":9771.87,"text":"都同意的那另外一個"},{"start":9771.87,"end":9773.87,"text":"我們會從榮獎的部分"},{"start":9773.87,"end":9775.87,"text":"包括都更分回"},{"start":9775.87,"end":9777.87,"text":"或是包括危老或是包括都市"},{"start":9777.87,"end":9779.87,"text":"計畫的台灣省建築技術規則"},{"start":9779.87,"end":9781.87,"text":"裡面來做一下修正"},{"start":9781.87,"end":9783.87,"text":"鼓勵更多的民間來參與"},{"start":9783.87,"end":9785.87,"text":"然後他參與所修建"},{"start":9785.87,"end":9787.87,"text":"出來的榮獎裡面"},{"start":9787.87,"end":9789.87,"text":"出來的就是社會住宅"},{"start":9789.87,"end":9791.87,"text":"那這個社會住宅是全台灣要盤點的"},{"start":9791.87,"end":9793.87,"text":"那這個全台灣盤點的數量"},{"start":9793.87,"end":9795.87,"text":"我們需要經過"},{"start":9795.87,"end":9797.87,"text":"這個大院如果"},{"start":9797.87,"end":9799.87,"text":"通過都更跟危老的條例的時候"},{"start":9799.87,"end":9801.87,"text":"才能夠算出來這個"},{"start":9801.87,"end":9803.87,"text":"可以出來的社會"},{"start":9803.87,"end":9805.87,"text":"住宅量是多少"},{"start":9805.87,"end":9807.87,"text":"我們一直在跟社會大眾"},{"start":9807.87,"end":9809.87,"text":"在做溝通就是這叫做"},{"start":9809.87,"end":9811.87,"text":"滾動式的這個調整"},{"start":9811.87,"end":9813.87,"text":"但是我們的社會住宅量不會是"},{"start":9813.87,"end":9815.87,"text":"只有三萬一定是往上"},{"start":9815.87,"end":9817.87,"text":"增加的滾動式調整"},{"start":9817.87,"end":9819.87,"text":"你們的八年到十二年到二十年都可以這樣講"},{"start":9819.87,"end":9821.87,"text":"目標沒有變但是重點是時辰"},{"start":9821.87,"end":9823.87,"text":"什麼要落實那剛才"},{"start":9823.87,"end":9825.87,"text":"有提到的是這個土地"},{"start":9825.87,"end":9827.87,"text":"因為你們在一百"},{"start":9827.87,"end":9829.87,"text":"一百一十二年"},{"start":9829.87,"end":9831.87,"text":"的時候有明定的這樣子的"},{"start":9831.87,"end":9833.87,"text":"一個整體開發計畫留設"},{"start":9833.87,"end":9835.87,"text":"三趴到五趴的土地公設宅使用"},{"start":9835.87,"end":9837.87,"text":"那由中央來"},{"start":9837.87,"end":9839.87,"text":"新購"},{"start":9839.87,"end":9841.87,"text":"那現在一百一十四年"},{"start":9841.87,"end":9843.87,"text":"舊版計畫當中還編了八百零"},{"start":9843.87,"end":9845.87,"text":"一點三億元"},{"start":9845.87,"end":9847.87,"text":"要來架構這些土地"},{"start":9847.87,"end":9849.87,"text":"現在新版計畫把這筆錢都刪了"},{"start":9849.87,"end":9851.87,"text":"那你們要求的是"},{"start":9851.87,"end":9853.87,"text":"現在把這樣子的"},{"start":9853.87,"end":9855.87,"text":"地方"},{"start":9855.87,"end":9857.87,"text":"土地有留著但是現在又刪了預算不滿"},{"start":9857.87,"end":9859.87,"text":"然後回過來跟人民說"},{"start":9859.87,"end":9861.87,"text":"不是你的土地現在"},{"start":9861.87,"end":9863.87,"text":"你們在想說現在目前的話你們對於這些"},{"start":9863.87,"end":9865.87,"text":"地方政府所依法"},{"start":9865.87,"end":9867.87,"text":"留設的土地是打算怎麼樣的處理"},{"start":9868.87,"end":9870.87,"text":"請署長跟您回答一下"},{"start":9871.57,"end":9873.57,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分確實地方"},{"start":9873.57,"end":9875.57,"text":"我們有要求在一些整開區"},{"start":9875.57,"end":9877.57,"text":"要留設這個社福用地"},{"start":9877.57,"end":9879.57,"text":"那但是這些社福用地未來如果要蓋"},{"start":9879.57,"end":9881.57,"text":"社宅的部分這個土地要由地方"},{"start":9881.57,"end":9883.57,"text":"來提供所以我們這個"},{"start":9883.57,"end":9885.57,"text":"之前有以前可能"},{"start":9885.57,"end":9887.57,"text":"會用中央的預算去買"},{"start":9887.57,"end":9889.57,"text":"但是這個部分要地方共同來分擔"},{"start":9889.57,"end":9891.57,"text":"那這個其實我們開會都有跟地方"},{"start":9891.57,"end":9893.57,"text":"溝通過了所以我剛我們"},{"start":9893.57,"end":9895.57,"text":"這一次第一階段要做的三萬戶裡面"},{"start":9895.57,"end":9897.57,"text":"有些區域就是這一方面"},{"start":9897.57,"end":9899.57,"text":"跟地方有做過好溝通"},{"start":9899.57,"end":9901.57,"text":"後面我們每年都會再去檢討"},{"start":9901.57,"end":9903.57,"text":"像下半年又會檢討"},{"start":9903.57,"end":9905.57,"text":"那檢討地方有一些比較新的"},{"start":9905.57,"end":9907.57,"text":"整開區提供出來的土地"},{"start":9907.57,"end":9909.57,"text":"這個部分我們會再去修正"},{"start":9909.57,"end":9911.57,"text":"抱怨的一個計畫"},{"start":9911.39,"end":9913.39,"text":"好這看起來都沒有時程性"},{"start":9913.39,"end":9915.39,"text":"這就是很大的問題"},{"start":9915.39,"end":9917.39,"text":"剛剛包娃娃說的社宅的部分"},{"start":9917.39,"end":9919.39,"text":"他沒有辦法就是說"},{"start":9919.39,"end":9921.39,"text":"在時程上面沒有呈現"},{"start":9921.39,"end":9923.39,"text":"就目標但是時程沒有呈現"},{"start":9923.39,"end":9925.39,"text":"我們目標是121年就是13萬戶"},{"start":9925.39,"end":9927.39,"text":"所以我們其實用這個目標跟地方政府"},{"start":9927.39,"end":9929.39,"text":"都有盤點那些數量"},{"start":9929.92,"end":9931.92,"text":"但是有確定的我們才能夠寫在抱怨計畫"},{"start":9931.92,"end":9933.92,"text":"因為這個涉及到預算的編列"},{"start":9933.92,"end":9935.92,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":9935.92,"end":9937.92,"text":"這個一定要比較精準一點"},{"start":9937.92,"end":9939.92,"text":"就是抱怨計畫要精準一點"},{"start":9939.92,"end":9941.92,"text":"那是國土署內部的一個作業"},{"start":9941.92,"end":9943.92,"text":"希望這個部分因為"},{"start":9943.92,"end":9945.92,"text":"每次都在說我們從"},{"start":9945.92,"end":9947.92,"text":"113年到現在"},{"start":9947.92,"end":9949.92,"text":"115年兩次的部分"},{"start":9949.92,"end":9951.92,"text":"到後來的現在看到說是"},{"start":9951.92,"end":9953.92,"text":"121年的時候"},{"start":9953.92,"end":9955.92,"text":"這樣整個的社宅機會"},{"start":9955.92,"end":9957.92,"text":"才可能落實每次兩年就新"},{"start":9957.92,"end":9959.92,"text":"這個一個計畫出現的話"},{"start":9959.92,"end":9961.92,"text":"到時候真的8年能不能實現"},{"start":9961.92,"end":9963.92,"text":"是很大的問題"},{"start":9963.92,"end":9965.92,"text":"然後我們剛剛也看到說如果社會住宅"},{"start":9965.92,"end":9967.92,"text":"他的時間計畫沒有出現的話"},{"start":9967.92,"end":9969.92,"text":"他的沒辦法真正的時間落實出來的話"},{"start":9969.92,"end":9971.92,"text":"租金的"},{"start":9971.92,"end":9973.92,"text":"房價部分租金的部分也會再提升"},{"start":9973.92,"end":9975.92,"text":"根本就沒有辦法去真正"},{"start":9975.92,"end":9977.92,"text":"讓所謂的社會居住正義"},{"start":9977.92,"end":9979.92,"text":"可以落實這個部分"},{"start":9979.92,"end":9981.92,"text":"就是應該要對政部要持續的觀察"},{"start":9981.92,"end":9983.92,"text":"當然也是我們立法委員會持續在關注的"},{"start":9983.92,"end":9985.92,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":9992.63,"end":9994.63,"text":"我們下一位請牛巡廷委員發言資訊"},{"start":10001.12,"end":10003.12,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":10004.05,"end":10006.05,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10005.42,"end":10007.42,"text":"好今天這個題目很大"},{"start":10007.42,"end":10009.42,"text":"辛青安也可以講20分鐘"},{"start":10009.42,"end":10011.42,"text":"對不對社宅講20分鐘高度待管講20分鐘"},{"start":10011.42,"end":10013.42,"text":"但是我只有5分鐘"},{"start":10013.42,"end":10015.42,"text":"那我們就講重點好了"},{"start":10015.42,"end":10017.42,"text":"這當然大家都關心了"},{"start":10017.42,"end":10019.42,"text":"社宅直接興辦的狀況顯然"},{"start":10019.42,"end":10021.42,"text":"有很大的一個縮水"},{"start":10021.42,"end":10023.42,"text":"剛我聽了部長的回答說"},{"start":10023.42,"end":10025.42,"text":"我們還是以13萬戶為目標"},{"start":10025.42,"end":10027.42,"text":"但第一階段是3萬戶你這第一階段幾年"},{"start":10028.73,"end":10030.73,"text":"第一階段寫在上面"},{"start":10030.73,"end":10034.73,"text":"我們請署長跟您回答一下好不好"},{"start":10034.73,"end":10036.73,"text":"好"},{"start":10036.73,"end":10038.73,"text":"跟委員報告我們3萬戶就是在117年"},{"start":10038.73,"end":10040.73,"text":"我們已經有確定的案件就是3萬戶"},{"start":10040.73,"end":10044.73,"text":"但是我們像今年15年還會再繼續盤點"},{"start":10044.73,"end":10046.73,"text":"那有可能116會有再新增加"},{"start":10046.73,"end":10048.73,"text":"所以我們會在表格上面"},{"start":10048.73,"end":10050.73,"text":"會新呈現新的量"},{"start":10050.73,"end":10052.73,"text":"這個部分就每年都會檢討"},{"start":10052.73,"end":10054.73,"text":"但是抱怨計畫這個部分"},{"start":10054.73,"end":10056.73,"text":"還是要確定"},{"start":10056.73,"end":10058.73,"text":"從114年等等開始大家都在追蹤"},{"start":10058.73,"end":10061.73,"text":"賴清德總統具體來講要怎麼樣來執行"},{"start":10061.73,"end":10063.73,"text":"他當初承諾跟所有選民承諾"},{"start":10063.73,"end":10065.73,"text":"都是社會住宅的一個計畫"},{"start":10065.73,"end":10068.73,"text":"然後大家得到的結論是這個計畫延宕了半天"},{"start":10068.73,"end":10071.73,"text":"一直遲遲的沒有辦法得到一個共識"},{"start":10071.73,"end":10073.73,"text":"然後最後這個共識出來是縮水"},{"start":10073.73,"end":10075.73,"text":"那縮水之後當然就被罵爆"},{"start":10075.73,"end":10077.73,"text":"那罵爆之後現在又講說以13萬戶為目標"},{"start":10077.73,"end":10079.73,"text":"我真的是建議啦"},{"start":10079.73,"end":10081.73,"text":"誠心建議劉部長還有署長大家都辛苦了"},{"start":10081.73,"end":10084.73,"text":"真的完全沒有必要搞這一出啦"},{"start":10084.73,"end":10086.73,"text":"來我們看一下這個投影片"},{"start":10087.37,"end":10089.37,"text":"按照現在這個規劃"},{"start":10089.37,"end":10091.37,"text":"民進黨政府執政之後的承諾"},{"start":10091.37,"end":10093.37,"text":"就從蔡英文總統開始"},{"start":10093.37,"end":10096.37,"text":"承諾直接興建20萬戶的社會住宅"},{"start":10096.37,"end":10098.37,"text":"然後賴清德總統加碼宣布"},{"start":10098.37,"end":10100.37,"text":"我要增加13萬戶"},{"start":10100.37,"end":10102.37,"text":"然後17萬戶的包租貸款"},{"start":10102.37,"end":10104.37,"text":"加上50萬戶的租屋補貼"},{"start":10104.37,"end":10106.37,"text":"形成所謂的百萬政府支持的住宅政策"},{"start":10106.37,"end":10108.37,"text":"這樣的一個核心綱要"},{"start":10108.37,"end":10110.37,"text":"那最新的草案按照最新的說法"},{"start":10110.37,"end":10112.37,"text":"官方的資料顯示"},{"start":10112.37,"end":10114.37,"text":"興建設宅"},{"start":10113.76,"end":10114.76,"text":"你可以看嘛"},{"start":10114.76,"end":10116.76,"text":"蔡英文總統承諾興建20萬戶住宅"},{"start":10116.76,"end":10118.76,"text":"但實際上他8年任期結束之後"},{"start":10118.76,"end":10119.76,"text":"包含到現在計算進去"},{"start":10120.51,"end":10121.51,"text":"頂到天啊"},{"start":10121.51,"end":10122.51,"text":"就這樣還沒有蓋完的喔"},{"start":10122.99,"end":10124.99,"text":"也就只有14.5萬戶"},{"start":10124.99,"end":10126.99,"text":"換言之啊這政府的承諾本來就要打個折扣"},{"start":10126.99,"end":10129.99,"text":"因為你實際上執行起來會遇到各式各樣的問題跟阻礙"},{"start":10129.99,"end":10131.99,"text":"那你在打折扣的時候"},{"start":10131.99,"end":10133.99,"text":"按照現在最新的規劃"},{"start":10133.99,"end":10135.99,"text":"包含你現在縮水的3萬戶裡面"},{"start":10135.99,"end":10137.99,"text":"這個包含還有2.5萬戶"},{"start":10137.99,"end":10139.99,"text":"還有2.5萬戶等於是"},{"start":10139.99,"end":10140.99,"text":"這個蔡英文總統還在"},{"start":10140.99,"end":10142.99,"text":"就是剛出規劃任期尾端之內"},{"start":10142.99,"end":10143.99,"text":"核定的一些計畫"},{"start":10143.99,"end":10146.99,"text":"實際上你剛講117年這個時間點"},{"start":10146.99,"end":10148.99,"text":"真正從賴政府找到地"},{"start":10148.99,"end":10150.99,"text":"新增然後要核定這個計畫"},{"start":10151.17,"end":10153.17,"text":"就用千的單位來算"},{"start":10153.17,"end":10154.17,"text":"只剩下1000戶"},{"start":10154.17,"end":10157.17,"text":"這我今天要講的不只是這個事情"},{"start":10157.17,"end":10159.17,"text":"很多人都在講說我們就多元處理"},{"start":10159.17,"end":10161.17,"text":"我們包租貸款有增加等等"},{"start":10161.17,"end":10163.17,"text":"但是包租貸款是包租貸款"},{"start":10163.17,"end":10165.17,"text":"直接興辦社宅是直接興辦社宅"},{"start":10165.17,"end":10169.17,"text":"不管在區會選擇房型選擇等等租期保障方面"},{"start":10169.17,"end":10171.17,"text":"這社會住宅的穩定性都還是最高的"},{"start":10171.17,"end":10173.17,"text":"所以大家在居住正義的倡議"},{"start":10173.17,"end":10175.17,"text":"跟居住正義的選擇裡面"},{"start":10175.17,"end":10178.17,"text":"直接興辦社宅它本來就是一個大家最期待的"},{"start":10178.17,"end":10179.17,"text":"第一優先這樣一個方案"},{"start":10179.17,"end":10181.17,"text":"但這樣的方案持續的縮水"},{"start":10181.17,"end":10183.17,"text":"部長你覺得這樣有辦法回應人民的期待嗎"},{"start":10184.18,"end":10187.18,"text":"謝謝委員您所提出的那個意見"},{"start":10187.18,"end":10189.18,"text":"我覺得是非常的務實"},{"start":10189.18,"end":10191.18,"text":"但是我們有另外一個新的倡議"},{"start":10191.18,"end":10193.18,"text":"就是我們建議在榮獎上面"},{"start":10193.18,"end":10194.18,"text":"尤其從都跟圍牢裡面"},{"start":10194.18,"end":10195.18,"text":"才可以取得社會住宅"},{"start":10195.18,"end":10197.18,"text":"這個部分也必須要大院跟地方政府"},{"start":10197.18,"end":10198.18,"text":"跟一起來合作"},{"start":10198.18,"end":10200.18,"text":"我跟委員報告一下"},{"start":10200.18,"end":10203.18,"text":"這個部分就是說我們希望鼓勵"},{"start":10203.18,"end":10205.18,"text":"更多的民間的營造公司"},{"start":10205.18,"end":10208.18,"text":"或者是建築公司願意投入社會住宅的興建"},{"start":10208.18,"end":10211.18,"text":"那你願意投入社會住宅興建的鼓勵辦法"},{"start":10211.18,"end":10215.18,"text":"政府儘量少出我們自己的公務預算的話"},{"start":10215.18,"end":10217.18,"text":"就是鼓勵他用榮獎的方式來做"},{"start":10217.18,"end":10218.18,"text":"我現在就擔心這事了"},{"start":10219.28,"end":10221.28,"text":"社會住宅興建壓力很大"},{"start":10221.28,"end":10222.28,"text":"不是不外乎兩件事"},{"start":10222.28,"end":10225.28,"text":"一要地 一要錢"},{"start":10225.28,"end":10227.28,"text":"我有足夠的用地好好來興建"},{"start":10227.28,"end":10229.28,"text":"其實社會住宅量很快就可以拉起來"},{"start":10229.28,"end":10230.28,"text":"那當然第二個要件是"},{"start":10230.28,"end":10233.28,"text":"政府要充分提供財務的一個資源"},{"start":10233.28,"end":10236.28,"text":"我們政府在各項政務方面推動的時候"},{"start":10236.28,"end":10237.28,"text":"我都不是很理解"},{"start":10237.28,"end":10238.28,"text":"為什麼這個東西在錢的部分"},{"start":10238.28,"end":10239.28,"text":"這麼蜘蛛必較"},{"start":10239.28,"end":10240.28,"text":"這麼注重財政紀律"},{"start":10240.28,"end":10243.28,"text":"社會住宅本來就是要提供給需求者"},{"start":10243.28,"end":10245.28,"text":"而且是真正社會上弱勢的人也好"},{"start":10245.28,"end":10246.28,"text":"青年也好"},{"start":10246.28,"end":10247.28,"text":"或者是大家納入婚育的也好"},{"start":10247.28,"end":10249.28,"text":"他本來就有很強的一個政策"},{"start":10249.28,"end":10250.28,"text":"縱效在這個地方"},{"start":10250.28,"end":10252.28,"text":"但是你講說你剛剛部長的回答"},{"start":10252.28,"end":10254.28,"text":"也證明了只要能夠省下錢"},{"start":10254.28,"end":10255.28,"text":"我們也很樂意多蓋一些"},{"start":10255.28,"end":10257.28,"text":"我關注到的事情是這樣"},{"start":10257.28,"end":10259.28,"text":"是剛剛除了劉樹平委員有提到"},{"start":10259.28,"end":10261.28,"text":"你的自行購地"},{"start":10261.28,"end":10262.28,"text":"我要買地"},{"start":10262.28,"end":10263.28,"text":"有很多的預算"},{"start":10263.28,"end":10264.28,"text":"我自行刪除了之外"},{"start":10264.28,"end":10265.28,"text":"這我們也注意到"},{"start":10265.28,"end":10267.28,"text":"117年起工程絕標的案件"},{"start":10267.28,"end":10270.28,"text":"也就是真正在賴政府規劃的案件裡面"},{"start":10270.28,"end":10273.28,"text":"中央政府不再提供地方政府非自償補助"},{"start":10273.28,"end":10275.28,"text":"你等於把這個政策的資源"},{"start":10275.28,"end":10277.28,"text":"政策的資源你通通都截止掉了"},{"start":10277.28,"end":10278.28,"text":"那截止掉之後"},{"start":10278.28,"end":10280.28,"text":"那還怎麼樣把量衝上來呢"},{"start":10280.28,"end":10281.28,"text":"部長你剛剛有提到講說"},{"start":10281.28,"end":10283.28,"text":"這個都更危老等等"},{"start":10283.28,"end":10286.28,"text":"全台灣有具備都更危老的條件"},{"start":10286.28,"end":10288.28,"text":"講句實在話也就台北市"},{"start":10288.28,"end":10290.28,"text":"新北市部分的區域"},{"start":10290.28,"end":10293.28,"text":"其他的地方都還是以新的捷運整開"},{"start":10293.28,"end":10294.28,"text":"等等的地方"},{"start":10294.28,"end":10297.28,"text":"來作為這個都市發展的最大的一個動力"},{"start":10297.28,"end":10299.28,"text":"換言之你如果只是把這個社會住"},{"start":10299.28,"end":10301.28,"text":"來期待建立在危老都更"},{"start":10301.28,"end":10304.28,"text":"台北市新北市能夠從命區"},{"start":10304.28,"end":10306.28,"text":"有都更需求的地方"},{"start":10306.28,"end":10308.28,"text":"能擠也擠不出多少戶"},{"start":10308.28,"end":10309.28,"text":"所以即便你有這樣"},{"start":10309.28,"end":10310.28,"text":"所以你要管動式檢討"},{"start":10310.28,"end":10312.28,"text":"這種也騙不了人民"},{"start":10312.36,"end":10313.36,"text":"我們現在要求的是什麼"},{"start":10313.36,"end":10315.36,"text":"報告委員我們在討論的過程當中"},{"start":10315.36,"end":10317.36,"text":"我們絕對沒有用騙這個部分"},{"start":10317.36,"end":10318.36,"text":"應該是說你的期望值"},{"start":10318.36,"end":10321.36,"text":"跟我們的預估值可能有落差"},{"start":10321.36,"end":10323.36,"text":"我剛才提到都更危老條例"},{"start":10323.36,"end":10324.36,"text":"還有一個都市計畫法的"},{"start":10324.36,"end":10326.36,"text":"這個台灣省施行細則"},{"start":10326.36,"end":10328.36,"text":"這個部分提供的榮獎的部分"},{"start":10328.36,"end":10331.36,"text":"大部分都會是集中在都會區"},{"start":10331.36,"end":10332.36,"text":"那既然是都會區的話"},{"start":10332.36,"end":10334.36,"text":"倒是不一定是北三都"},{"start":10334.36,"end":10336.36,"text":"你剛剛講的期待對不對"},{"start":10336.36,"end":10337.36,"text":"我講的期待"},{"start":10337.36,"end":10339.36,"text":"我們當然是從最高期待"},{"start":10339.36,"end":10340.36,"text":"我當然希望你可以"},{"start":10340.36,"end":10341.36,"text":"我當然希望你可以"},{"start":10341.36,"end":10342.36,"text":"蓋立百萬戶兩百萬戶"},{"start":10342.36,"end":10343.36,"text":"這是我個人期待"},{"start":10343.36,"end":10344.36,"text":"因為我關注這個題目"},{"start":10344.36,"end":10345.36,"text":"但我們的期待標準是"},{"start":10345.36,"end":10346.36,"text":"賴清德總統承認承諾"},{"start":10346.36,"end":10348.36,"text":"是直接興建十三萬戶社會住宅"},{"start":10348.36,"end":10349.36,"text":"對不對"},{"start":10349.36,"end":10350.36,"text":"所以你沒有做到"},{"start":10350.36,"end":10351.36,"text":"那不是騙是什麼"},{"start":10352.88,"end":10353.88,"text":"所以我覺得不要用話術"},{"start":10353.88,"end":10354.88,"text":"來處理這個事情"},{"start":10354.88,"end":10355.88,"text":"我沒有用話術"},{"start":10355.88,"end":10356.88,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":10356.88,"end":10357.88,"text":"我們在討論的過程當中"},{"start":10357.88,"end":10360.88,"text":"我們都是非常傾聽各位的意見"},{"start":10360.88,"end":10363.88,"text":"只是說在滾動調查過程當中"},{"start":10363.88,"end":10364.88,"text":"可能第一個數據上面"},{"start":10364.88,"end":10366.88,"text":"我們必須要做比較好的盤整"},{"start":10366.88,"end":10368.88,"text":"第二個我們在處理的過程當中"},{"start":10368.88,"end":10370.88,"text":"我還是一再強調"},{"start":10370.88,"end":10371.88,"text":"以往從樹地裡面興建"},{"start":10371.88,"end":10372.88,"text":"我們認為這樣子"},{"start":10372.88,"end":10374.88,"text":"一個單一的方向不是很好"},{"start":10374.88,"end":10376.88,"text":"所以用多元的方向"},{"start":10376.88,"end":10377.88,"text":"那既然是多元的方向"},{"start":10377.88,"end":10378.88,"text":"可以取得的話"},{"start":10378.88,"end":10379.88,"text":"我覺得委員應該支持"},{"start":10379.88,"end":10380.88,"text":"我們朝這方向"},{"start":10380.88,"end":10381.88,"text":"包括修法的方向"},{"start":10381.88,"end":10383.88,"text":"我們之前修法有講"},{"start":10383.88,"end":10385.88,"text":"這個住宅法201條之一"},{"start":10385.88,"end":10386.88,"text":"就是社宅儲備用地"},{"start":10386.88,"end":10388.88,"text":"不就是希望你在這個整開的區域"},{"start":10388.88,"end":10390.88,"text":"可以取得大面積的土地"},{"start":10390.88,"end":10391.88,"text":"可以來處理"},{"start":10391.88,"end":10393.88,"text":"結論是我修這個法的配套"},{"start":10393.88,"end":10395.88,"text":"就是希望你直接興辦的數量"},{"start":10395.88,"end":10396.88,"text":"可以增加"},{"start":10396.88,"end":10397.88,"text":"結果我們修了半天之後"},{"start":10397.88,"end":10399.88,"text":"你直接興辦的數量反而是減少"},{"start":10399.88,"end":10400.88,"text":"那不是很奇怪嗎"},{"start":10400.88,"end":10401.88,"text":"大家幫你把工具都找到"},{"start":10401.88,"end":10402.88,"text":"把路又鋪平了"},{"start":10402.88,"end":10404.88,"text":"你只要提供相關的一些資源"},{"start":10404.88,"end":10406.88,"text":"中央地方一起來協力興建"},{"start":10406.88,"end":10409.88,"text":"完全可以依照賴總統當初的承諾來做"},{"start":10409.88,"end":10410.88,"text":"所以我才講"},{"start":10410.88,"end":10412.88,"text":"這一段這個波折完全實屬不必"},{"start":10412.88,"end":10415.88,"text":"你按照本來這個路徑去做不就好了嗎"},{"start":10415.88,"end":10416.88,"text":"說到地的這件事情"},{"start":10416.88,"end":10417.88,"text":"我也要補充再問"},{"start":10417.88,"end":10419.88,"text":"當今年1月23號"},{"start":10419.88,"end":10420.88,"text":"我們也在討論社宅的時候"},{"start":10420.88,"end":10421.88,"text":"這羅天惠委員質詢的時候"},{"start":10421.88,"end":10423.88,"text":"曾經有要求內政部提供"},{"start":10423.88,"end":10424.88,"text":"這個土地盤點的狀況"},{"start":10424.88,"end":10426.88,"text":"因為我講不外乎就是資源跟地"},{"start":10426.88,"end":10429.88,"text":"那本席的辦公室也兩度屈含內政部"},{"start":10429.88,"end":10431.88,"text":"要求詳細的盤點資料"},{"start":10431.88,"end":10432.88,"text":"第一次的回覆"},{"start":10432.88,"end":10433.88,"text":"只有六個縣市的數據"},{"start":10433.88,"end":10434.88,"text":"第二次直接講"},{"start":10434.88,"end":10436.88,"text":"我們還在盤點跟檢討之中"},{"start":10436.88,"end":10438.88,"text":"確定前欠難提供相關細節"},{"start":10438.88,"end":10439.88,"text":"現在已經8月了"},{"start":10439.88,"end":10440.88,"text":"你什麼時候要提供相關細節"},{"start":10440.88,"end":10441.88,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":10441.88,"end":10442.88,"text":"我想在你所提到的部分"},{"start":10442.88,"end":10444.88,"text":"確實它是存在的"},{"start":10444.88,"end":10446.88,"text":"那當時我們以為"},{"start":10446.88,"end":10447.88,"text":"我們只要報到院裡頭的時候"},{"start":10447.88,"end":10450.88,"text":"院的部分只要是公開的"},{"start":10450.88,"end":10452.88,"text":"已經經過確定的計畫的話"},{"start":10452.88,"end":10453.88,"text":"這時候對外公開"},{"start":10453.88,"end":10455.88,"text":"後來因為院沒有核定"},{"start":10455.88,"end":10456.88,"text":"所以我們認為"},{"start":10456.88,"end":10457.88,"text":"按照政府的資訊公開法"},{"start":10457.88,"end":10461.88,"text":"不宜來公開這相關的數據給委員"},{"start":10461.88,"end":10462.88,"text":"所以我們在"},{"start":10462.88,"end":10463.88,"text":"包括黨團協商的時候"},{"start":10463.88,"end":10464.88,"text":"也已經兩度"},{"start":10464.88,"end":10467.88,"text":"也包括民眾黨黨團提到這方面的意見"},{"start":10467.88,"end":10468.88,"text":"請委員能夠了解"},{"start":10468.88,"end":10471.88,"text":"所以資源的部分大量的尊節"},{"start":10471.88,"end":10474.88,"text":"用地的部分也說因為沒有核定"},{"start":10474.88,"end":10477.88,"text":"那我真的今天質詢的內容"},{"start":10477.88,"end":10478.88,"text":"就留待大家公平"},{"start":10478.88,"end":10480.88,"text":"大家到底政府到底有沒有誠意"},{"start":10480.88,"end":10481.88,"text":"要推動這件事情"},{"start":10481.88,"end":10482.88,"text":"我想人民心中有數"},{"start":10482.88,"end":10483.88,"text":"我最後花一點點時間"},{"start":10483.88,"end":10485.88,"text":"補充一下包租代管的事情"},{"start":10485.88,"end":10487.88,"text":"因為最近財務問題很嚴重"},{"start":10487.88,"end":10489.88,"text":"但是孰令自知"},{"start":10489.88,"end":10490.88,"text":"當我們政府強制"},{"start":10490.88,"end":10492.88,"text":"因為我曾經承諾100萬戶"},{"start":10492.88,"end":10494.88,"text":"然後我大量膨脹包租代管的時候"},{"start":10494.88,"end":10495.88,"text":"我都搞不清楚"},{"start":10495.88,"end":10496.88,"text":"我都搞不清楚"},{"start":10496.88,"end":10497.88,"text":"到底是在扶植業者"},{"start":10497.88,"end":10500.88,"text":"還是真正在照顧居住者的需求的時候"},{"start":10500.88,"end":10501.88,"text":"在包租的模式下"},{"start":10501.88,"end":10503.88,"text":"業者現在沒有找到房客"},{"start":10503.88,"end":10504.88,"text":"我就要先付大量的押金"},{"start":10504.88,"end":10505.88,"text":"屋況不好"},{"start":10505.88,"end":10506.88,"text":"我就要負擔裝修的成本"},{"start":10506.88,"end":10509.88,"text":"所以前期的資本投入就非常的高"},{"start":10509.88,"end":10511.88,"text":"就是因為前期的資本投入非常高"},{"start":10511.88,"end":10512.88,"text":"大部分就借錢"},{"start":10512.88,"end":10513.88,"text":"然後財務槓桿出現問題"},{"start":10513.88,"end":10515.88,"text":"才出現現在的財務危機"},{"start":10515.88,"end":10516.88,"text":"然後到最後導致"},{"start":10516.88,"end":10518.88,"text":"這個政策沒有辦法貫徹"},{"start":10518.88,"end":10520.88,"text":"如果我們持續膨脹這樣的數量"},{"start":10520.88,"end":10522.88,"text":"卻壓縮了政府可以直接導引"},{"start":10522.88,"end":10524.88,"text":"直接處理的這個社會住宅的話"},{"start":10524.88,"end":10527.88,"text":"你形成的未來風險只會越來越大"},{"start":10527.88,"end":10528.88,"text":"今天的時間不夠"},{"start":10528.88,"end":10530.88,"text":"我就不多聽你的回答了"},{"start":10530.88,"end":10531.88,"text":"但是我們懷疑"},{"start":10531.88,"end":10532.88,"text":"你到底只是要處理產業"},{"start":10532.88,"end":10533.88,"text":"還是要照顧弱勢"},{"start":10533.88,"end":10534.88,"text":"如果真的要照顧弱勢"},{"start":10534.88,"end":10536.88,"text":"滿足居住者的需求"},{"start":10536.88,"end":10539.88,"text":"請你回到正常的政策邏輯"},{"start":10539.88,"end":10541.88,"text":"按照住宅法當初修正了各項的配套"},{"start":10541.88,"end":10543.88,"text":"積極的來直接興辦社宅"},{"start":10543.88,"end":10545.88,"text":"不要去砍這些什麼自償性補助款"},{"start":10545.88,"end":10547.88,"text":"你反而應該加碼補助"},{"start":10547.88,"end":10549.88,"text":"我們大家都知道國防預算很重要"},{"start":10549.88,"end":10550.88,"text":"所以大家都會支持"},{"start":10550.88,"end":10551.88,"text":"對不對"},{"start":10551.88,"end":10552.88,"text":"雖然有點中間有點吵架"},{"start":10552.88,"end":10553.88,"text":"住宅預算難道不重要嗎"},{"start":10553.88,"end":10555.88,"text":"我們現在面對少子女化危機"},{"start":10555.88,"end":10557.88,"text":"上次住宅法修法提高婚餘宅的比例"},{"start":10557.88,"end":10560.88,"text":"如果直接興辦社宅的進度是零"},{"start":10560.88,"end":10562.88,"text":"那你幾%幾%還不是零"},{"start":10562.88,"end":10563.88,"text":"對不對"},{"start":10563.88,"end":10564.88,"text":"所以我希望部長署長"},{"start":10564.88,"end":10566.88,"text":"回去好好再思考一下這件事情"},{"start":10566.88,"end":10568.88,"text":"不要讓這個錯誤的政策繼續延續下去"},{"start":10568.88,"end":10569.88,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10576.03,"end":10578.03,"text":"我們現在為了請李坤城委員發言責詢"},{"start":10586.66,"end":10588.66,"text":"好謝謝主席"},{"start":10588.66,"end":10590.66,"text":"我們請內政部劉部長"},{"start":10590.66,"end":10592.66,"text":"駐都中心的花董事長"},{"start":10594.83,"end":10595.83,"text":"部長好"},{"start":10595.83,"end":10596.83,"text":"部長好"},{"start":10597.56,"end":10601.56,"text":"現在這個包租代管的這一家寄居蟹"},{"start":10601.56,"end":10602.56,"text":"兩手一攤"},{"start":10602.56,"end":10604.56,"text":"他說他沒辦法提供服務了"},{"start":10604.56,"end":10608.56,"text":"然後他的這個全台灣有6640戶"},{"start":10608.56,"end":10610.56,"text":"然後你們給我資料是"},{"start":10610.56,"end":10613.56,"text":"新北市就有2677戶"},{"start":10613.56,"end":10615.56,"text":"然後當然有包租有代管"},{"start":10615.56,"end":10618.56,"text":"然後連同他的另外一家公司造基"},{"start":10618.56,"end":10620.56,"text":"造基中央跟地方合起來"},{"start":10620.56,"end":10623.56,"text":"有15689戶"},{"start":10623.56,"end":10626.56,"text":"所以造基加寄居蟹兩個合起來"},{"start":10626.56,"end":10627.56,"text":"數字蠻大的"},{"start":10627.56,"end":10629.56,"text":"22329戶"},{"start":10629.56,"end":10630.56,"text":"好那先請教"},{"start":10630.56,"end":10631.56,"text":"造基我等一下再問"},{"start":10631.56,"end":10632.56,"text":"先問寄居蟹"},{"start":10632.56,"end":10634.56,"text":"寄居蟹他已經說他沒辦法提供服務了"},{"start":10634.56,"end":10635.56,"text":"那請教一下"},{"start":10635.56,"end":10638.56,"text":"寄居蟹他沒辦法提供服務"},{"start":10638.56,"end":10642.56,"text":"那現在這個轉賢的情況怎麼樣"},{"start":10643.28,"end":10644.28,"text":"好謝謝委員關心"},{"start":10644.28,"end":10646.28,"text":"其實所謂寄居蟹沒辦法提供服務"},{"start":10646.28,"end":10648.28,"text":"並不是說他現在已經完全什麼都不做了"},{"start":10648.28,"end":10650.28,"text":"因為他們員工現在都還在"},{"start":10650.28,"end":10653.28,"text":"所以說他們會全力協助轉賢"},{"start":10653.28,"end":10654.28,"text":"這件事情"},{"start":10654.28,"end":10657.28,"text":"這基本上這個事情我們還有一定的支持"},{"start":10657.28,"end":10659.28,"text":"那轉賢的事情"},{"start":10659.28,"end":10662.28,"text":"我們已經從昨天開始啟動"},{"start":10662.28,"end":10665.28,"text":"那到現在為止大概已經處理了"},{"start":10665.28,"end":10666.28,"text":"就是寄居蟹的部分"},{"start":10666.28,"end":10669.28,"text":"已經有超過400戶"},{"start":10669.28,"end":10671.28,"text":"已經跟房東銜接上"},{"start":10671.28,"end":10673.28,"text":"那開始處理他轉到其他人"},{"start":10673.28,"end":10675.28,"text":"你說新的這個公司跟"},{"start":10675.93,"end":10679.93,"text":"他轉賢就是把寄居蟹的6600個案件"},{"start":10679.93,"end":10682.93,"text":"轉給六都的其他正在做"},{"start":10682.93,"end":10685.93,"text":"社宅包租代管的其他的業者"},{"start":10685.93,"end":10686.93,"text":"他們自己去找就對了"},{"start":10686.93,"end":10690.93,"text":"我們通過平台讓房東主動表達"},{"start":10690.93,"end":10693.93,"text":"他希望哪一家業者來銜接他"},{"start":10693.93,"end":10696.93,"text":"如果他沒有熟悉的業者"},{"start":10696.93,"end":10699.93,"text":"那我們會依照業者的名單排序去輪動"},{"start":10699.93,"end":10701.93,"text":"第一個來就先找第一家"},{"start":10701.93,"end":10704.93,"text":"第二個來就找第二家來平均分散"},{"start":10704.93,"end":10708.93,"text":"那到目前為止已經有超過400個案子"},{"start":10708.93,"end":10710.93,"text":"已經開始銜接了"},{"start":10710.93,"end":10711.93,"text":"可是還有6000多戶"},{"start":10711.93,"end":10714.93,"text":"對所以說我們昨天才開始"},{"start":10714.93,"end":10716.93,"text":"那你預計多久時間"},{"start":10716.93,"end":10718.93,"text":"可以轉賢完這6000多戶"},{"start":10718.93,"end":10721.93,"text":"我覺得預計應該一個月之內可以處理完成"},{"start":10721.93,"end":10723.93,"text":"一個月之內可以處理完成"},{"start":10723.93,"end":10727.93,"text":"因為這個轉賢包含了這個租金跟押金的問題"},{"start":10727.93,"end":10728.93,"text":"對"},{"start":10728.93,"end":10730.93,"text":"那所以就是說現在大家比較擔心就是說"},{"start":10730.93,"end":10733.93,"text":"好啦我如果是這個房東的話"},{"start":10733.93,"end":10734.93,"text":"或是我是房客"},{"start":10734.93,"end":10736.93,"text":"因為他有包租有代管"},{"start":10736.93,"end":10738.93,"text":"那這個租金的問題怎麼辦"},{"start":10738.93,"end":10739.93,"text":"我已經付出去的租金怎麼辦"},{"start":10739.93,"end":10741.93,"text":"我已經付出去的押金怎麼辦"},{"start":10741.93,"end":10744.93,"text":"然後這些也都會轉給新界的公司嗎"},{"start":10744.93,"end":10746.93,"text":"其實代管比較單純"},{"start":10746.93,"end":10748.93,"text":"因為代管的租金本來就付給房東了"},{"start":10748.93,"end":10751.93,"text":"所以只是服務比較單純包租比較"},{"start":10751.93,"end":10753.93,"text":"包租稍微複雜一點"},{"start":10753.93,"end":10758.93,"text":"因為業者還是要按時間付房租給原房東"},{"start":10758.93,"end":10760.93,"text":"他在向房客收房租"},{"start":10761.91,"end":10763.91,"text":"所以說這個部分就會我剛講"},{"start":10763.91,"end":10766.91,"text":"基居縣的員工就會協助在這些案子"},{"start":10766.91,"end":10768.91,"text":"跟未來要新銜接的業者"},{"start":10768.91,"end":10770.91,"text":"來做彼此之間的"},{"start":10771.95,"end":10773.95,"text":"該怎麼樣結算的動作"},{"start":10773.95,"end":10775.95,"text":"其實問題最大的問題就在這邊"},{"start":10775.95,"end":10777.95,"text":"就是說換了業者"},{"start":10777.95,"end":10781.95,"text":"那租約租金押金該怎麼辦"},{"start":10781.95,"end":10782.95,"text":"押金比較單純"},{"start":10784.73,"end":10787.73,"text":"原來基居縣付給原房東的押金"},{"start":10787.73,"end":10790.73,"text":"也就等於他跟房客收的押金"},{"start":10790.73,"end":10795.73,"text":"所以說當房東和房客都轉到新的業者底下"},{"start":10795.73,"end":10798.73,"text":"其實只要把這些押金的關係同步銜接"},{"start":10798.73,"end":10800.73,"text":"大家簽好彼此的契約"},{"start":10800.73,"end":10802.73,"text":"結束之前的契約"},{"start":10802.73,"end":10803.73,"text":"跟基居縣的契約"},{"start":10803.73,"end":10805.73,"text":"那個押金就過去了"},{"start":10805.73,"end":10809.73,"text":"那租金的部分就是看他什麼時候開始起租"},{"start":10809.73,"end":10811.73,"text":"只是把那個租期搭在"},{"start":10811.73,"end":10813.73,"text":"因為我們對於租約是從"},{"start":10815.2,"end":10817.2,"text":"照原契約銜接"},{"start":10817.2,"end":10819.2,"text":"不可以調漲租金"},{"start":10819.2,"end":10821.2,"text":"而且不要再去更動契約"},{"start":10821.2,"end":10823.2,"text":"所以說實質上他是在相對"},{"start":10823.2,"end":10825.2,"text":"變動最小的情況下"},{"start":10825.2,"end":10827.2,"text":"在做這個移動"},{"start":10827.2,"end":10829.2,"text":"那這幾天讓我們把"},{"start":10829.2,"end":10831.2,"text":"理先的實務把它操作好"},{"start":10831.2,"end":10832.2,"text":"一個月的時間6000多戶"},{"start":10832.2,"end":10834.2,"text":"你認為可以轉銜成功就對了"},{"start":10834.2,"end":10836.2,"text":"我不敢講百分之百"},{"start":10836.2,"end":10837.2,"text":"我不敢講百分之百"},{"start":10837.2,"end":10840.2,"text":"因為有些房東他可能有自己的想法說"},{"start":10840.2,"end":10842.2,"text":"那他要退出社宅包租貸款等等"},{"start":10842.2,"end":10844.2,"text":"那我們都會尊重"},{"start":10844.2,"end":10846.2,"text":"那我就請教部長"},{"start":10846.2,"end":10850.2,"text":"那所以政府能不能向房東房客保證"},{"start":10850.2,"end":10851.2,"text":"租金不會中斷"},{"start":10851.2,"end":10852.2,"text":"租約也不會中斷"},{"start":10852.2,"end":10854.2,"text":"押金也會拿得回來"},{"start":10854.2,"end":10855.2,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":10855.2,"end":10856.2,"text":"我們現在跟各個"},{"start":10856.2,"end":10858.2,"text":"尤其是六都的縣市政府"},{"start":10858.2,"end":10860.2,"text":"就是有這樣的共識"},{"start":10860.2,"end":10861.2,"text":"我們已經有提到"},{"start":10861.2,"end":10863.2,"text":"就是房東跟房客的權益"},{"start":10863.2,"end":10865.2,"text":"不會受到影響"},{"start":10865.2,"end":10867.2,"text":"這已經有提出這樣的保證"},{"start":10867.2,"end":10869.2,"text":"所以才會六都的這個租福公會"},{"start":10869.2,"end":10872.2,"text":"願意介入所謂的轉銜機制裡面"},{"start":10872.2,"end":10875.2,"text":"那這個住租中心都在積極的協助當中"},{"start":10875.2,"end":10879.2,"text":"因為今天民眾不論你是房東還是房客"},{"start":10879.2,"end":10881.2,"text":"他參加這個包租貸款"},{"start":10881.2,"end":10882.2,"text":"他不是只有相信這個業者"},{"start":10882.2,"end":10884.2,"text":"其實是相信政府"},{"start":10884.2,"end":10885.2,"text":"還是相信政府"},{"start":10885.2,"end":10886.2,"text":"因為政府在推這個政策"},{"start":10886.2,"end":10888.2,"text":"那所以剛剛部長的答覆"},{"start":10888.2,"end":10891.2,"text":"至少讓這個房東房客有這個信心"},{"start":10891.2,"end":10895.2,"text":"就是說這個會按照這個出事之前的這個情況"},{"start":10895.2,"end":10898.2,"text":"權利義務不會改變就對了"},{"start":10898.2,"end":10899.2,"text":"是的而且我們也公布這個"},{"start":10899.2,"end":10901.2,"text":"六都的這個服務窗口"},{"start":10901.2,"end":10903.2,"text":"如果有任何公務部門"},{"start":10903.2,"end":10906.2,"text":"不是這個租金補貼的這個租福公會"},{"start":10906.2,"end":10910.2,"text":"這個公會的那個電話號碼跟單一窗口都有"},{"start":10910.2,"end":10913.2,"text":"如果他們任何諮詢方面的問題都會打來問"},{"start":10913.2,"end":10915.2,"text":"那目前為止大概來問的這個情況"},{"start":10915.2,"end":10918.2,"text":"沒有外界所想像當中那麼的多"},{"start":10918.2,"end":10921.2,"text":"也就是他們了解裡面的房東房客的權益"},{"start":10921.2,"end":10924.2,"text":"沒有受到影響之後大概就比較好"},{"start":10924.2,"end":10926.2,"text":"好那這個是寄居蟹"},{"start":10926.2,"end":10928.2,"text":"我現在問一下造基"},{"start":10928.2,"end":10930.2,"text":"造基算是餵爆蛋喔"},{"start":10930.2,"end":10933.2,"text":"你們有沒有去了解一下造基的這個情況怎麼樣"},{"start":10933.2,"end":10935.2,"text":"因為造基為什麼說是餵爆蛋"},{"start":10935.2,"end":10937.2,"text":"因為本來董事長已經"},{"start":10937.2,"end":10939.2,"text":"現在已經被這個"},{"start":10939.2,"end":10941.2,"text":"應該被壓起來了"},{"start":10941.2,"end":10942.2,"text":"然後呢"},{"start":10942.2,"end":10946.2,"text":"這個本來還有這個宏基的這個人員要進去"},{"start":10946.2,"end":10948.2,"text":"然後結果呢宏基的人呢"},{"start":10948.2,"end":10950.2,"text":"發現說裡面有問題之後"},{"start":10950.2,"end":10951.2,"text":"兩天就辭掉了"},{"start":10951.2,"end":10954.2,"text":"表示他知道說造基有問題啊"},{"start":10954.2,"end":10956.2,"text":"那所以你們有沒有去了解造基的問題所在"},{"start":10956.2,"end":10958.2,"text":"因為我很擔心他成為一個餵爆蛋"},{"start":10958.2,"end":10959.2,"text":"而且他的量更大啊"},{"start":10959.2,"end":10960.2,"text":"他的量更大啊"},{"start":10960.77,"end":10961.77,"text":"各位報告"},{"start":10964.41,"end":10967.41,"text":"造基的第一任銜接的董事長是王靖祥先生"},{"start":10967.41,"end":10968.41,"text":"他是原董事"},{"start":10968.41,"end":10972.41,"text":"到後來是宏基派任的李文祥董事長"},{"start":10972.41,"end":10973.41,"text":"是第二任董事"},{"start":10973.41,"end":10976.41,"text":"到前天他們的董事會"},{"start":10976.41,"end":10980.41,"text":"臨時董事會又指派了王貴珍總經理代理總經理"},{"start":10980.41,"end":10983.41,"text":"其實這兩位董事長跟總經理的"},{"start":10983.41,"end":10985.41,"text":"在一上任的第一天"},{"start":10985.41,"end":10987.41,"text":"我就立刻約詢他們"},{"start":10987.41,"end":10990.41,"text":"詳細了解他們所掌握的狀況"},{"start":10990.41,"end":10992.41,"text":"然後接著我每天"},{"start":10992.41,"end":10994.41,"text":"他們在任幾天我就是每天都跟他們保持"},{"start":10994.41,"end":10997.41,"text":"所以他們發現問題很大所以跑掉了"},{"start":10997.41,"end":10998.41,"text":"然後呢"},{"start":10998.41,"end":11002.41,"text":"董事長你這邊了解問題所在嗎"},{"start":11002.41,"end":11006.41,"text":"其實我這些部分大家也在媒體上都看到"},{"start":11006.41,"end":11009.41,"text":"例如說在前天"},{"start":11009.41,"end":11012.41,"text":"造基的帳戶可能被銀行變成警示帳戶"},{"start":11012.41,"end":11016.41,"text":"那當然我就會再繼續追問他們怎麼處理"},{"start":11016.41,"end":11018.41,"text":"現在我們在昨天的下午"},{"start":11018.41,"end":11020.41,"text":"他們已經把警示帳戶的問題解決"},{"start":11020.41,"end":11022.41,"text":"所以現在帳戶已經不是警示帳戶了"},{"start":11022.41,"end":11024.41,"text":"他現在是執行缺口的問題"},{"start":11024.41,"end":11026.41,"text":"對今天他們我的了解"},{"start":11026.41,"end":11030.41,"text":"他們今天正要跟銀行團談這個資金"},{"start":11030.41,"end":11033.41,"text":"現在他們的負債跟他們的帳戶之間"},{"start":11033.41,"end":11035.41,"text":"怎麼樣把融資"},{"start":11035.41,"end":11038.41,"text":"原來融資的銀行是不是還同意繼續融資給他"},{"start":11038.41,"end":11041.41,"text":"還是由其他的銀行來銜接新的融資"},{"start":11041.41,"end":11042.41,"text":"今天正在談"},{"start":11042.41,"end":11044.41,"text":"所以今天如果談出一個結果"},{"start":11044.41,"end":11048.41,"text":"我當然我們都會第一時間馬上了解狀況如何"},{"start":11048.41,"end":11050.41,"text":"那他們也會對外說明"},{"start":11050.41,"end":11053.41,"text":"因為昨天我跟他們的新的代理總經理講"},{"start":11053.41,"end":11055.41,"text":"好那我簡單問董事長好了"},{"start":11055.41,"end":11058.41,"text":"那你看起來你很了解這個造基的情況"},{"start":11058.41,"end":11061.41,"text":"我自己也不太了解太多的債務的問題"},{"start":11061.41,"end":11063.41,"text":"但是公司現在運作的"},{"start":11063.41,"end":11065.41,"text":"我們當然一定要充分掌握"},{"start":11065.41,"end":11067.41,"text":"那所以你能保證說"},{"start":11067.41,"end":11070.41,"text":"造基不會成為下一個寄居線嗎"},{"start":11070.41,"end":11071.41,"text":"我沒有辦法保證"},{"start":11071.41,"end":11072.41,"text":"其實"},{"start":11072.41,"end":11074.41,"text":"哇你不能保證大家就頭很大啦"},{"start":11074.41,"end":11080.41,"text":"我們所有的造基的現在的營運團隊"},{"start":11080.41,"end":11082.41,"text":"其實大家都沒有辦法說我百分之百"},{"start":11082.41,"end":11083.41,"text":"因為"},{"start":11083.41,"end":11085.41,"text":"但是大家都在努力的"},{"start":11085.41,"end":11086.41,"text":"大家都在努力的"},{"start":11086.41,"end":11087.41,"text":"那你有沒有想一個最後的打算"},{"start":11087.41,"end":11089.41,"text":"如果造基也跟寄居線一樣"},{"start":11089.41,"end":11090.41,"text":"兩手一帶說沒有辦法"},{"start":11090.41,"end":11092.41,"text":"因為我沒有權利去保證"},{"start":11092.41,"end":11094.41,"text":"我保證是虛的是假的"},{"start":11094.41,"end":11095.41,"text":"我保證是虛是假"},{"start":11095.41,"end":11097.41,"text":"所以你今天是在負責這一塊"},{"start":11097.41,"end":11100.41,"text":"所以我不希望說就像跟寄居線一樣"},{"start":11100.41,"end":11102.41,"text":"那未來我們政府就是擦屁股"},{"start":11102.41,"end":11104.41,"text":"這個防範未來於先嘛"},{"start":11104.41,"end":11106.41,"text":"就是說你現在也知道他有問題了"},{"start":11106.41,"end":11108.41,"text":"那你採取什麼樣的手段"},{"start":11108.41,"end":11109.41,"text":"讓他這個問題不要發生"},{"start":11109.41,"end":11111.41,"text":"這才是我們現在要做的"},{"start":11111.41,"end":11112.41,"text":"所以我們現在對寄居線的"},{"start":11112.41,"end":11114.41,"text":"這些轉型處理的機制"},{"start":11114.41,"end":11116.41,"text":"一旦我們發現造基"},{"start":11116.41,"end":11118.41,"text":"假設他真的不穩定了"},{"start":11118.41,"end":11121.41,"text":"我們就開始啟動造基的專案的轉型"},{"start":11121.41,"end":11123.41,"text":"他們這些案子"},{"start":11123.41,"end":11125.41,"text":"我們跟六都地方政府就來啟動嘛"},{"start":11125.41,"end":11127.41,"text":"讓這些反東反客的權益"},{"start":11127.41,"end":11129.41,"text":"仍然不能受損"},{"start":11129.41,"end":11131.41,"text":"那現在我們也對於"},{"start":11131.41,"end":11132.41,"text":"我唸一唸說"},{"start":11132.41,"end":11135.41,"text":"能不能防範造基成為下一個機械"},{"start":11135.41,"end":11137.41,"text":"這不是比較有用嘛"},{"start":11137.41,"end":11139.41,"text":"如果就像寄居線這樣"},{"start":11139.41,"end":11141.41,"text":"就倒人然後兩手一抬"},{"start":11141.41,"end":11142.41,"text":"就要政府來擦屁股"},{"start":11143.15,"end":11145.15,"text":"補充"},{"start":11145.15,"end":11147.15,"text":"委員我來這樣回應好了"},{"start":11147.15,"end":11149.15,"text":"造基也好 寄居線也好"},{"start":11149.15,"end":11150.15,"text":"他們的負責人"},{"start":11150.15,"end":11152.15,"text":"因為金流自己出了狀況"},{"start":11152.15,"end":11154.15,"text":"該抓去關就抓去關"},{"start":11154.15,"end":11156.15,"text":"我們完全尊重"},{"start":11156.15,"end":11158.15,"text":"但是因為他是設宅的"},{"start":11158.15,"end":11160.15,"text":"這個包租代管的公司"},{"start":11160.15,"end":11162.15,"text":"所以站在內政部的立場"},{"start":11162.15,"end":11164.15,"text":"我們會要確保"},{"start":11164.15,"end":11166.15,"text":"房東跟房客的權益沒有受改變"},{"start":11166.15,"end":11169.15,"text":"也就是說房客繼續住在原地方"},{"start":11169.15,"end":11171.15,"text":"房東還是繼續收房租"},{"start":11171.15,"end":11173.15,"text":"所以說應該有的服務還是要照常"},{"start":11173.15,"end":11176.15,"text":"所以這些我們都有跟寄居線"},{"start":11176.15,"end":11180.15,"text":"還有造基裡面相關的人員"},{"start":11180.15,"end":11182.15,"text":"做好比較好的溝通"},{"start":11182.15,"end":11185.15,"text":"更何況您所擔心的造基的部分是"},{"start":11185.15,"end":11189.15,"text":"地方政府跟中央政府剛好一個人一半"},{"start":11189.15,"end":11191.15,"text":"一個是七千多戶一個是八千多戶"},{"start":11191.15,"end":11193.15,"text":"所以我剛有特別提到"},{"start":11193.15,"end":11195.15,"text":"我非常謝謝縣市政府"},{"start":11195.15,"end":11196.15,"text":"願意跟我們站在一起"},{"start":11196.15,"end":11199.15,"text":"就是確保房東房客的權益不受改變"},{"start":11199.15,"end":11203.15,"text":"所以這是屬於公共服務上面的不打折"},{"start":11203.15,"end":11204.15,"text":"這我們做得到"},{"start":11204.15,"end":11207.15,"text":"但是如果造基公司跟寄居線公司"},{"start":11207.15,"end":11209.15,"text":"他們自己違反了公司法"},{"start":11209.15,"end":11212.15,"text":"或是金融銀行業的管理條例的話"},{"start":11212.15,"end":11218.15,"text":"他們就應該去接受司法檢查跟偵查"},{"start":11218.15,"end":11220.15,"text":"這是我們都完全尊重的"},{"start":11220.15,"end":11224.15,"text":"所以我們把它做比較好的分庭處理的時候"},{"start":11224.15,"end":11226.15,"text":"在過去三四天以來"},{"start":11226.15,"end":11228.15,"text":"我們都是按照這樣的方向在處理"},{"start":11228.15,"end":11229.15,"text":"沒有改變"},{"start":11229.15,"end":11231.15,"text":"您擔心的就是說萬一造基也倒了"},{"start":11231.15,"end":11233.15,"text":"造基倒是怎麼一回事"},{"start":11233.15,"end":11237.15,"text":"第一個下面公司的人不願意跟大家一起"},{"start":11237.15,"end":11241.15,"text":"把造基所服務的這些一萬五千多個服務對象一起服務"},{"start":11241.15,"end":11244.15,"text":"但是就我們所了解他們仍然願意服務"},{"start":11244.15,"end":11246.15,"text":"既然他們願意服務的話"},{"start":11246.15,"end":11248.15,"text":"不管他們的新的經營團隊"},{"start":11248.15,"end":11251.15,"text":"他第一個要去回答銀行團隊他們的質疑"},{"start":11251.15,"end":11255.15,"text":"他要去回答他們金流是否有失控的問題"},{"start":11255.15,"end":11260.15,"text":"但是他們的經營團隊要跟我們內政部跟住住中心保證"},{"start":11260.15,"end":11264.15,"text":"你下面的客戶不管是房東的客戶或房客的客戶"},{"start":11264.15,"end":11267.15,"text":"他的權益不受打折跟受改變"},{"start":11267.15,"end":11270.15,"text":"目前為止我們知道是沒有這方面的一個問題"},{"start":11270.15,"end":11272.15,"text":"那我剛也跟委員回答到說"},{"start":11272.15,"end":11274.15,"text":"如果他確實有問題的話"},{"start":11274.15,"end":11278.15,"text":"我們第四期應該撥付給他的款項我們就會中止"},{"start":11278.15,"end":11280.15,"text":"主席我再問最後一個問題"},{"start":11280.15,"end":11282.15,"text":"現在住住中心裡面認為說"},{"start":11282.15,"end":11286.15,"text":"未來單一業者承作比例要去檢討"},{"start":11286.15,"end":11290.15,"text":"就是說是不是我們對於這個單一業者他的承作的上限"},{"start":11290.15,"end":11293.15,"text":"還有他關係企業能夠合併計算"},{"start":11293.15,"end":11296.15,"text":"不然讓公司拆成這個不同的法案之後"},{"start":11296.15,"end":11298.15,"text":"然後規避集中管理這方面"},{"start":11298.15,"end":11302.15,"text":"這部分我會跟內政部國土署跟地政司還有工會"},{"start":11302.15,"end":11306.15,"text":"大家再來協商怎麼樣的操作會是比較穩定"},{"start":11306.15,"end":11310.15,"text":"一方面也能夠激勵業者努力的推案子"},{"start":11310.15,"end":11313.15,"text":"一方面又能夠確保產業的穩定"},{"start":11313.15,"end":11316.15,"text":"這部分我們再討論之後再來跟委員做說明好嗎"},{"start":11316.15,"end":11320.15,"text":"好啊 那你們像這個造金或是說寄居蟹"},{"start":11320.15,"end":11324.15,"text":"你們過去有沒有去查他們的財務的狀況"},{"start":11325.32,"end":11328.32,"text":"我們沒有權利去查他公司的財務"},{"start":11328.32,"end":11329.32,"text":"我們都會"},{"start":11330.43,"end":11332.43,"text":"針對他們業務的推動狀況"},{"start":11332.43,"end":11336.43,"text":"支付房東該付的房租有沒有付"},{"start":11336.43,"end":11339.43,"text":"該付給房客的一些修繕補助費"},{"start":11339.43,"end":11341.43,"text":"我們當然這個都有完全的掌握"},{"start":11341.43,"end":11342.43,"text":"這個都沒有問題"},{"start":11342.43,"end":11346.43,"text":"那所以像這個造金跟寄居蟹他們類似這個吸金的這個問題"},{"start":11346.43,"end":11348.43,"text":"你們是哪時候才知道的"},{"start":11349.16,"end":11353.16,"text":"其實當然發公司在約略當然有聽到"},{"start":11353.16,"end":11354.16,"text":"大家外面有在說"},{"start":11354.16,"end":11355.16,"text":"但是"},{"start":11356.03,"end":11359.03,"text":"問題是如此的複雜這個我們完全意料之外"},{"start":11359.03,"end":11361.03,"text":"這個也要注意喔"},{"start":11361.03,"end":11363.03,"text":"這個就是說當然不是只有內政部"},{"start":11363.03,"end":11367.03,"text":"我想可能連財政部金管會都要一起來協助啦"},{"start":11367.03,"end":11370.03,"text":"把這個東西當作一個教材"},{"start":11370.03,"end":11372.03,"text":"如何防範說未來有這種公司"},{"start":11372.03,"end":11374.03,"text":"因為他就是說反正我跟房東都很熟我都有名單啊"},{"start":11374.03,"end":11377.03,"text":"然後就是類似這種讓高利息然後吸引大家進來"},{"start":11377.03,"end":11379.03,"text":"那結果他就跑掉了"},{"start":11379.03,"end":11380.03,"text":"這是類似一個吸金的一個情況嘛"},{"start":11380.03,"end":11382.03,"text":"我覺得這個案例要去避免"},{"start":11382.03,"end":11385.03,"text":"那如何跟我剛才講的相關的部會去做合作"},{"start":11385.03,"end":11387.03,"text":"你可能沒有辦法"},{"start":11387.03,"end":11390.03,"text":"你內政部沒辦法去查他內部的這個財務的狀況"},{"start":11390.03,"end":11391.03,"text":"但是其他部會可以啊"},{"start":11392.43,"end":11393.43,"text":"好不好"},{"start":11394.71,"end":11396.71,"text":"OK"},{"start":11395.57,"end":11396.57,"text":"部長最後"},{"start":11396.57,"end":11398.57,"text":"委員這個我們這個部分"},{"start":11398.57,"end":11402.57,"text":"在跟各地縣市政府在這個開會的過程當中"},{"start":11402.57,"end":11404.57,"text":"也有請這個經濟部"},{"start":11404.57,"end":11406.57,"text":"還有請那個金管會來練習"},{"start":11406.57,"end":11408.57,"text":"告訴那個縣市地方政府"},{"start":11408.57,"end":11410.57,"text":"我們應該有的權益保障在哪裡"},{"start":11410.57,"end":11412.57,"text":"所以他們大概都了解這個狀況"},{"start":11412.57,"end":11413.57,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":11413.57,"end":11415.57,"text":"謝謝部長 董事長 謝謝主席"},{"start":11419.82,"end":11421.82,"text":"我們下一位請徐欣瑩委員發言諮詢"},{"start":11429.03,"end":11431.03,"text":"好 謝謝主席"},{"start":11431.03,"end":11432.03,"text":"本席有請劉部長"},{"start":11436.83,"end":11438.83,"text":"好 部長"},{"start":11438.83,"end":11441.83,"text":"這個我們今天主要跟您討論"},{"start":11441.83,"end":11443.83,"text":"清安3.0"},{"start":11443.83,"end":11445.83,"text":"那談清安3.0之前"},{"start":11445.83,"end":11447.83,"text":"本席想請問"},{"start":11447.83,"end":11449.83,"text":"清安2.0的借款人當中"},{"start":11449.83,"end":11451.83,"text":"您這邊有沒有掌握"},{"start":11451.83,"end":11453.83,"text":"首次購屋的有多少"},{"start":11453.83,"end":11458.83,"text":"報告 清安的主政單位是以財政部為主"},{"start":11458.83,"end":11460.83,"text":"所以我們是不是可以請財政部"},{"start":11460.83,"end":11462.83,"text":"他們有代表在這邊"},{"start":11462.83,"end":11464.83,"text":"跟我們做一下報告好嗎"},{"start":11464.83,"end":11465.83,"text":"好"},{"start":11465.78,"end":11466.78,"text":"有沒有掌握"},{"start":11468.21,"end":11470.21,"text":"是 跟委員報告"},{"start":11470.21,"end":11473.21,"text":"那因為清安2.0"},{"start":11473.21,"end":11475.21,"text":"它的這個對象就是"},{"start":11475.21,"end":11478.21,"text":"必須是成年"},{"start":11478.21,"end":11481.21,"text":"本人跟子女沒有自有住宅"},{"start":11481.21,"end":11482.21,"text":"沒有沒有 我的問題是"},{"start":11482.21,"end":11484.21,"text":"反正你有沒有掌握"},{"start":11484.21,"end":11487.21,"text":"在你清安2.0借款人當中"},{"start":11487.21,"end":11490.21,"text":"首次購屋的人有多少"},{"start":11490.21,"end":11493.21,"text":"過去曾經持有住宅的有多少"},{"start":11493.21,"end":11494.21,"text":"你們有沒有統計"},{"start":11495.21,"end":11498.21,"text":"那個部分就是他在申請的時候"},{"start":11498.21,"end":11500.21,"text":"必須是名下沒有房子"},{"start":11500.21,"end":11502.21,"text":"他才有資格申請"},{"start":11502.21,"end":11503.21,"text":"那但是"},{"start":11503.21,"end":11504.21,"text":"不不不 我在問你有沒有掌握"},{"start":11504.21,"end":11506.21,"text":"有多少人"},{"start":11506.21,"end":11508.21,"text":"因為清安2.0我們有要求他"},{"start":11508.21,"end":11510.21,"text":"就是說要現代一次"},{"start":11510.21,"end":11512.21,"text":"但是他在之前的部分"},{"start":11512.21,"end":11514.21,"text":"我們並沒有那樣的資料"},{"start":11514.21,"end":11516.21,"text":"所以這邊顯示出什麼"},{"start":11516.21,"end":11518.21,"text":"顯示出部長"},{"start":11518.21,"end":11520.21,"text":"我為什麼剛剛請教你呢"},{"start":11521.03,"end":11523.03,"text":"因為這個整個的費用"},{"start":11523.03,"end":11525.03,"text":"是不是我們這住宅"},{"start":11525.03,"end":11527.03,"text":"是住宅基金這邊"},{"start":11527.93,"end":11529.93,"text":"出錢嘛 是不是"},{"start":11529.93,"end":11531.93,"text":"所有的清安2.0"},{"start":11531.93,"end":11533.93,"text":"報告我們是做利息補貼"},{"start":11533.93,"end":11534.93,"text":"不是我們出錢"},{"start":11534.93,"end":11535.93,"text":"對對對"},{"start":11535.93,"end":11537.93,"text":"因為那個額度差"},{"start":11539.09,"end":11541.09,"text":"因為這個政策"},{"start":11541.09,"end":11543.09,"text":"政府的補貼就是利息補貼嘛"},{"start":11543.09,"end":11545.09,"text":"那利息補貼是不是"},{"start":11545.09,"end":11547.09,"text":"住宅基金出錢 部長"},{"start":11549.7,"end":11550.7,"text":"部長"},{"start":11551.27,"end":11552.27,"text":"部長"},{"start":11552.98,"end":11554.98,"text":"部長 本席要表達的是"},{"start":11554.98,"end":11555.98,"text":"是住宅基金"},{"start":11555.98,"end":11557.98,"text":"住宅基金出錢"},{"start":11557.98,"end":11560.98,"text":"那財政部這邊"},{"start":11560.98,"end":11562.98,"text":"銀行這裡在申辦"},{"start":11562.98,"end":11566.98,"text":"兩個單位都沒有在掌握這個費用"},{"start":11566.98,"end":11568.98,"text":"然後這個情況也沒有了解"},{"start":11568.98,"end":11569.98,"text":"一問三不知"},{"start":11569.98,"end":11570.98,"text":"那我的時間沒那麼多"},{"start":11570.98,"end":11573.98,"text":"我接著要請教這個部長"},{"start":11573.98,"end":11574.98,"text":"我接著要問"},{"start":11575.66,"end":11577.66,"text":"內政部報告宣稱"},{"start":11577.66,"end":11579.66,"text":"清安3.0有住"},{"start":11579.66,"end":11581.66,"text":"減輕居住負擔"},{"start":11582.36,"end":11583.36,"text":"部長"},{"start":11583.36,"end":11585.36,"text":"你們這句話指的是什麼"},{"start":11585.36,"end":11586.36,"text":"第一個"},{"start":11586.36,"end":11588.36,"text":"你的減輕居住負擔是"},{"start":11588.36,"end":11591.36,"text":"你降低了頭期款的門檻"},{"start":11591.36,"end":11595.36,"text":"還是你降低了前幾年的月付金"},{"start":11595.36,"end":11599.36,"text":"還是你降低了40年的總住宅支出"},{"start":11599.36,"end":11600.36,"text":"是哪一個"},{"start":11600.36,"end":11602.36,"text":"你降低了什麼有助於減輕"},{"start":11602.36,"end":11603.36,"text":"原住民的負擔"},{"start":11603.36,"end":11604.36,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":11604.36,"end":11605.36,"text":"這個就是財政部退出的方案"},{"start":11605.36,"end":11606.36,"text":"您是不是以財政部為主"},{"start":11606.36,"end":11608.36,"text":"因為我想在質詢台上面"},{"start":11608.36,"end":11609.36,"text":"我們沒有辦法"},{"start":11609.36,"end":11610.36,"text":"過國一的代替回答"},{"start":11610.36,"end":11611.36,"text":"我現在問的是你們的報告"},{"start":11611.36,"end":11613.36,"text":"內政部報告寫的"},{"start":11613.36,"end":11615.36,"text":"我們認為有助於減輕的負擔"},{"start":11615.36,"end":11616.36,"text":"所以我就問你"},{"start":11616.36,"end":11618.36,"text":"你認為有助於是什麼"},{"start":11618.36,"end":11619.36,"text":"還是要以財政部"},{"start":11619.36,"end":11620.36,"text":"所推出的一個"},{"start":11620.36,"end":11622.36,"text":"比較正確的這個方案為主"},{"start":11622.36,"end":11623.36,"text":"對"},{"start":11623.36,"end":11624.36,"text":"那我就是問"},{"start":11624.36,"end":11625.36,"text":"因為你剛說"},{"start":11625.36,"end":11627.36,"text":"你們認為有助於減輕"},{"start":11627.36,"end":11629.36,"text":"那有助於減輕"},{"start":11629.36,"end":11631.36,"text":"那你到底你這句話指的是"},{"start":11631.36,"end":11633.36,"text":"減輕哪一個部分"},{"start":11634.55,"end":11635.55,"text":"市長"},{"start":11635.55,"end":11636.55,"text":"跟委員報告一下"},{"start":11636.55,"end":11637.55,"text":"我們這邊的話減輕負擔"},{"start":11637.55,"end":11639.55,"text":"應該是在購屋的部分"},{"start":11639.55,"end":11640.55,"text":"初期的部分"},{"start":11640.55,"end":11642.55,"text":"對 初期繳得少"},{"start":11642.55,"end":11643.55,"text":"可以利息的部分"},{"start":11643.55,"end":11644.55,"text":"但是好"},{"start":11644.55,"end":11646.55,"text":"本席就要帶出這個概念"},{"start":11646.55,"end":11647.55,"text":"你初期繳得少"},{"start":11647.55,"end":11650.55,"text":"不代表你長期負擔低"},{"start":11650.55,"end":11653.55,"text":"你寬限期你是把本金延後"},{"start":11653.55,"end":11655.55,"text":"不是把本金免除"},{"start":11655.55,"end":11657.55,"text":"所以本席在這裡"},{"start":11657.55,"end":11659.55,"text":"是特別要提出來說"},{"start":11659.55,"end":11662.55,"text":"我們的政府如果告訴我們年輕人"},{"start":11662.55,"end":11663.55,"text":"現在繳得少"},{"start":11663.55,"end":11665.55,"text":"但是也要請你要告訴他"},{"start":11665.55,"end":11668.55,"text":"五年後你每個月要繳多少"},{"start":11668.55,"end":11671.55,"text":"才是完整的政策揭露"},{"start":11671.55,"end":11673.55,"text":"所以本席接著要問"},{"start":11673.55,"end":11675.55,"text":"內政部有沒有完成"},{"start":11675.55,"end":11678.55,"text":"我看了這個清安3.0"},{"start":11678.55,"end":11679.55,"text":"你的一千萬"},{"start":11679.55,"end":11680.55,"text":"一千兩百萬"},{"start":11680.55,"end":11682.55,"text":"一千五百萬的貸款"},{"start":11682.55,"end":11684.55,"text":"你在寬限期借滿"},{"start":11684.55,"end":11686.55,"text":"補貼退場以及利率"},{"start":11686.55,"end":11689.55,"text":"上升一至二個百分點的時候"},{"start":11689.55,"end":11691.55,"text":"月付金的試算"},{"start":11691.55,"end":11693.55,"text":"月付金的試算"},{"start":11693.39,"end":11695.39,"text":"有沒有告訴年輕人"},{"start":11696.65,"end":11698.65,"text":"是 哥國源報告"},{"start":11698.65,"end":11700.65,"text":"在清安的聲帶的部分"},{"start":11700.65,"end":11703.65,"text":"其實公穩銀行都會提供"},{"start":11703.65,"end":11705.65,"text":"就是他的試算"},{"start":11705.65,"end":11708.65,"text":"就是會讓申請的人知道"},{"start":11708.65,"end":11709.65,"text":"他的負擔的情況"},{"start":11709.65,"end":11710.65,"text":"試算是全期"},{"start":11710.65,"end":11713.65,"text":"他貸款的總期數的試算都有"},{"start":11713.65,"end":11714.65,"text":"清楚知道說"},{"start":11714.65,"end":11716.65,"text":"在寬限期的時候"},{"start":11716.65,"end":11717.65,"text":"他每個月要繳多少"},{"start":11717.65,"end":11719.65,"text":"到寬限期期滿之後"},{"start":11719.65,"end":11721.65,"text":"他每個月要繳多少"},{"start":11721.65,"end":11722.65,"text":"因為其實購物貸款"},{"start":11722.65,"end":11724.65,"text":"是一個比較長期的"},{"start":11724.65,"end":11725.65,"text":"一個財務規劃"},{"start":11725.65,"end":11727.65,"text":"所以其實銀行都會提供"},{"start":11727.65,"end":11729.65,"text":"這樣子的試算服務"},{"start":11729.65,"end":11730.65,"text":"讓民眾很清楚"},{"start":11730.65,"end":11733.65,"text":"去做自己合理的財務負擔"},{"start":11733.65,"end":11737.65,"text":"所以我們要特別也強調"},{"start":11737.65,"end":11739.65,"text":"內政部出資補貼"},{"start":11739.65,"end":11741.65,"text":"也是住宅政策的主管機關"},{"start":11741.65,"end":11743.65,"text":"所以絕對有責任"},{"start":11743.65,"end":11746.65,"text":"要建立這種全國一致性的"},{"start":11746.65,"end":11748.65,"text":"風險揭露標準"},{"start":11748.65,"end":11750.65,"text":"接著本席要提的是"},{"start":11750.65,"end":11753.65,"text":"我們都想照顧年輕人"},{"start":11753.65,"end":11755.65,"text":"特別是育兒家庭"},{"start":11755.65,"end":11761.65,"text":"我們有沒有進行現金流的壓力測試"},{"start":11761.65,"end":11764.65,"text":"不管是我們的政策主管機關"},{"start":11764.65,"end":11766.65,"text":"內政部包含出錢的機關"},{"start":11766.65,"end":11770.65,"text":"或者是內政部一直推給財政部"},{"start":11770.65,"end":11772.65,"text":"財政部或是銀行"},{"start":11772.65,"end":11774.65,"text":"因為育兒的家庭"},{"start":11774.65,"end":11776.65,"text":"它不只有房貸"},{"start":11776.65,"end":11778.65,"text":"它還有托育、教育、醫療"},{"start":11778.65,"end":11779.65,"text":"各種支出"},{"start":11779.65,"end":11782.65,"text":"所以我們是不是可以請部長"},{"start":11782.65,"end":11784.65,"text":"部長可不可以承諾"},{"start":11784.65,"end":11787.65,"text":"三個月內會同財政部金管會"},{"start":11787.65,"end":11789.65,"text":"制定一個清安貸款"},{"start":11789.65,"end":11792.65,"text":"一夜市的風險揭露書"},{"start":11794.85,"end":11796.85,"text":"這個揭露書要清楚的揭露"},{"start":11796.85,"end":11799.85,"text":"寬限期前後的月付金"},{"start":11799.85,"end":11800.85,"text":"剛剛您說有"},{"start":11800.85,"end":11804.85,"text":"補貼退場後的月付金好像也有"},{"start":11804.85,"end":11808.85,"text":"升息的壓力以及40年的總利息"},{"start":11808.85,"end":11813.85,"text":"還有育嬰留庭與所得下降的各種情境"},{"start":11814.05,"end":11815.05,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":11814.98,"end":11816.98,"text":"這個部分部長可以嗎"},{"start":11817.39,"end":11818.39,"text":"由內政部"},{"start":11818.39,"end":11820.39,"text":"因為政策主管機關"},{"start":11820.39,"end":11822.39,"text":"這個跟委員報告一下"},{"start":11822.39,"end":11825.39,"text":"因為整個清安的政策是財政部的政策"},{"start":11825.39,"end":11828.39,"text":"只是在經費利息補貼的部分"},{"start":11828.39,"end":11829.39,"text":"對嘛 你們出錢"},{"start":11829.39,"end":11833.39,"text":"所以裡面則由我們住宅基金這邊來出這個帳"},{"start":11833.39,"end":11838.39,"text":"好 那不然財政部今天的出席我看一下"},{"start":11838.39,"end":11841.39,"text":"我是國庫署副署長"},{"start":11841.39,"end":11844.39,"text":"那你們可不可以提出這個"},{"start":11845.37,"end":11847.37,"text":"風險的揭露書"},{"start":11847.37,"end":11851.37,"text":"還有家庭的現金流的壓力測試"},{"start":11851.37,"end":11853.37,"text":"那提供給我們內政委員會 可以嗎"},{"start":11853.37,"end":11855.37,"text":"是 跟委員報告一下"},{"start":11855.37,"end":11858.37,"text":"其實在民眾在申請清安的時候"},{"start":11858.37,"end":11862.37,"text":"其實銀行也都會實時的去輔導"},{"start":11862.37,"end":11865.37,"text":"然後因為他在申請案件的時候"},{"start":11865.37,"end":11868.37,"text":"其實必須要去看他的收支筆"},{"start":11868.37,"end":11870.37,"text":"所以這個部分其實銀行會輔導"},{"start":11870.37,"end":11872.37,"text":"我們立法院希望可以看到"},{"start":11872.37,"end":11876.37,"text":"財政部提供給我們的這個風險揭露書"},{"start":11876.37,"end":11880.37,"text":"還有家庭現金流壓力測試可以嗎"},{"start":11880.37,"end":11881.37,"text":"三個月內給我們嗎"},{"start":11881.37,"end":11883.37,"text":"是 我們可能就回去"},{"start":11883.37,"end":11886.37,"text":"會去做一個相關的試算"},{"start":11886.37,"end":11888.37,"text":"至於委員你說這個家庭現金流"},{"start":11888.37,"end":11890.37,"text":"這個部分可能這個部分"},{"start":11890.37,"end":11892.37,"text":"財政部是沒有這方面的資料"},{"start":11892.37,"end":11894.37,"text":"但是如果就清安的這個"},{"start":11894.37,"end":11896.37,"text":"個年的這個金額的試算"},{"start":11896.37,"end":11898.37,"text":"我們是可以做報告"},{"start":11898.37,"end":11899.37,"text":"好 那你們提供過來"},{"start":11899.37,"end":11904.37,"text":"但是你們身為這種主要政策的主管機關"},{"start":11904.37,"end":11907.37,"text":"照道理要替我們的民眾做嘛"},{"start":11907.96,"end":11909.96,"text":"等於我們要求的這個"},{"start":11909.96,"end":11911.96,"text":"你就是應該要能夠揭露"},{"start":11911.96,"end":11913.96,"text":"讓我們的民眾知道"},{"start":11913.96,"end":11915.96,"text":"所以我還是要請你"},{"start":11915.96,"end":11917.96,"text":"可以三個月內提供給我們內政委員會"},{"start":11917.96,"end":11919.96,"text":"我們可以提供一個書面報告"},{"start":11919.96,"end":11922.96,"text":"但是其實現行銀行端都有在做這方面"},{"start":11922.96,"end":11925.96,"text":"那你們會診看狀況提供給我們"},{"start":11925.96,"end":11926.96,"text":"是 我們提供一個書面報告"},{"start":11926.96,"end":11927.96,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":11927.96,"end":11929.96,"text":"好 OK 那接著部長"},{"start":11929.96,"end":11931.96,"text":"劉部長我還是要請教您"},{"start":11931.96,"end":11934.96,"text":"我們住宅基金既然出錢"},{"start":11934.96,"end":11936.96,"text":"內政部你出錢嘛"},{"start":11936.96,"end":11938.96,"text":"你也不能迴避責任"},{"start":11938.96,"end":11940.96,"text":"所以住宅基金"},{"start":11940.96,"end":11943.96,"text":"在你們在內政部這邊"},{"start":11943.96,"end":11945.96,"text":"轄下所管"},{"start":11945.96,"end":11948.96,"text":"所以到底住宅基金要負擔多少"},{"start":11949.96,"end":11950.96,"text":"這一塊"},{"start":11950.96,"end":11953.96,"text":"我想內政部應該有試算吧"},{"start":11954.65,"end":11956.65,"text":"那住宅基金"},{"start":11956.54,"end":11959.54,"text":"確實負擔了一些利息補貼"},{"start":11959.54,"end":11963.54,"text":"但是我們出錢就要做成本效益評估"},{"start":11963.54,"end":11964.54,"text":"所以"},{"start":11965.03,"end":11968.03,"text":"本席希望內政部向國會來交代"},{"start":11969.3,"end":11973.3,"text":"這個住宅基金針對清安2.0"},{"start":11973.3,"end":11976.3,"text":"現在要進入3.0"},{"start":11976.3,"end":11978.3,"text":"預估聲帶多少戶"},{"start":11978.3,"end":11979.3,"text":"因為你要出錢"},{"start":11979.3,"end":11981.3,"text":"你不能說我這個錢"},{"start":11981.3,"end":11983.3,"text":"國家的錢他說什麼就去"},{"start":11983.3,"end":11986.3,"text":"你要掌握預估聲帶多少戶"},{"start":11986.3,"end":11988.3,"text":"你每年要補貼多少"},{"start":11988.3,"end":11991.3,"text":"你未來承諾支出多少"},{"start":11991.3,"end":11993.3,"text":"那在不同的聲帶量"},{"start":11993.3,"end":11995.3,"text":"還有利率變動下"},{"start":11995.3,"end":11997.3,"text":"我們的基金能否承受"},{"start":11997.84,"end":11999.84,"text":"那更重要的是"},{"start":11999.84,"end":12002.84,"text":"我們清安3.0的基金壓力測試"},{"start":12002.84,"end":12005.84,"text":"不管內政部會同財政部也好"},{"start":12005.84,"end":12008.84,"text":"這一塊我們立法院就是要"},{"start":12008.84,"end":12010.84,"text":"替民眾把關"},{"start":12010.84,"end":12013.84,"text":"你這個住宅基金"},{"start":12013.84,"end":12015.84,"text":"你的整個的壓力測試有沒有"},{"start":12017.04,"end":12019.04,"text":"先跟委員報告一下"},{"start":12019.04,"end":12021.04,"text":"我是在問部長"},{"start":12021.04,"end":12022.04,"text":"不是"},{"start":12022.04,"end":12023.04,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":12023.04,"end":12025.04,"text":"我們必須要有新清安"},{"start":12025.04,"end":12027.04,"text":"他們推估出來多少戶數"},{"start":12027.04,"end":12029.04,"text":"我們才能就利息補貼的部分"},{"start":12029.04,"end":12031.04,"text":"去推估出來所需要的代表"},{"start":12031.04,"end":12034.04,"text":"你們要主動去跟財政不了解"},{"start":12034.04,"end":12036.04,"text":"當我問到您的時候"},{"start":12036.04,"end":12039.04,"text":"這個政策8月1號都推出了"},{"start":12039.04,"end":12041.04,"text":"你們就應該要知道"},{"start":12041.04,"end":12043.04,"text":"不是說反正國家的錢"},{"start":12043.04,"end":12044.04,"text":"不是我的錢"},{"start":12044.04,"end":12045.04,"text":"我不相信你們"},{"start":12045.04,"end":12047.04,"text":"如果自己的錢你要出去的時候"},{"start":12047.04,"end":12049.04,"text":"你都不用了解嗎"},{"start":12049.04,"end":12050.04,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":12050.04,"end":12051.04,"text":"我們當然不是這樣方式"},{"start":12051.04,"end":12052.04,"text":"如果委員一定要知道"},{"start":12052.04,"end":12053.04,"text":"因為您剛有提到說"},{"start":12053.04,"end":12055.04,"text":"財政部要推估"},{"start":12055.04,"end":12057.04,"text":"我們必須要代管的戶數是多少"},{"start":12057.04,"end":12059.04,"text":"我說這個戶數要有財政部來提供"},{"start":12059.04,"end":12062.04,"text":"今天已經8月幾號"},{"start":12062.04,"end":12063.04,"text":"你8月1號就推出"},{"start":12063.04,"end":12064.04,"text":"那是"},{"start":12064.04,"end":12066.04,"text":"你們也都沒有去了解"},{"start":12066.04,"end":12068.04,"text":"身貸多少預估的"},{"start":12068.04,"end":12070.04,"text":"那每年你們要補貼多少"},{"start":12070.04,"end":12072.04,"text":"你們沒有任何的預估嗎"},{"start":12072.04,"end":12073.04,"text":"跟委員報告一下"},{"start":12073.04,"end":12075.04,"text":"那個財政部在研擬整個"},{"start":12075.04,"end":12077.04,"text":"一個清安3.0的方案"},{"start":12077.04,"end":12079.04,"text":"需要補貼多少錢"},{"start":12079.04,"end":12081.04,"text":"然後住宅基金要補貼多少錢"},{"start":12081.04,"end":12082.04,"text":"他們都有推估"},{"start":12082.04,"end":12084.04,"text":"那整個數據的話包含戶數"},{"start":12084.04,"end":12085.04,"text":"你們也都有掌握"},{"start":12085.04,"end":12087.04,"text":"財政部都有推估出來"},{"start":12087.04,"end":12088.04,"text":"然後有告訴我們"},{"start":12088.04,"end":12090.04,"text":"好 那我現在請教部長跟司長"},{"start":12090.04,"end":12092.04,"text":"那你住宅基金"},{"start":12092.04,"end":12095.04,"text":"整個你除了清安3.0之外"},{"start":12095.04,"end":12097.04,"text":"你還要支應社會住宅租金補貼"},{"start":12097.04,"end":12098.04,"text":"包租代管"},{"start":12098.04,"end":12100.04,"text":"弱勢住宅協助"},{"start":12100.04,"end":12101.04,"text":"修繕補助等等"},{"start":12101.04,"end":12102.04,"text":"那請問"},{"start":12103.69,"end":12105.69,"text":"你這整個的"},{"start":12107.02,"end":12109.02,"text":"就這麼多的各種支出"},{"start":12109.02,"end":12111.02,"text":"我們的清安3.0"},{"start":12111.02,"end":12113.02,"text":"你們說你們有掌握知道"},{"start":12113.02,"end":12115.02,"text":"那會不會排擠到其他的"},{"start":12115.02,"end":12117.02,"text":"租金補貼各方面"},{"start":12117.02,"end":12118.02,"text":"有沒有掌握這一塊"},{"start":12118.02,"end":12120.02,"text":"報告委員 目前為止"},{"start":12120.02,"end":12122.02,"text":"如果說我們在額度上面的運用"},{"start":12122.02,"end":12123.02,"text":"出現困擾的話"},{"start":12123.02,"end":12125.02,"text":"那我們就會報到這個"},{"start":12125.02,"end":12127.02,"text":"你不能等到出現困擾"},{"start":12127.02,"end":12128.02,"text":"我現在要問的就是"},{"start":12128.02,"end":12130.02,"text":"我要實施之前"},{"start":12130.02,"end":12131.02,"text":"你有沒有掌握嗎"},{"start":12131.02,"end":12132.02,"text":"會不會排擠"},{"start":12132.02,"end":12133.02,"text":"你有沒有得不到"},{"start":12133.02,"end":12135.02,"text":"都依實際上的滾動式"},{"start":12135.02,"end":12137.02,"text":"我們會請國庫來撥補"},{"start":12137.02,"end":12138.02,"text":"所以你們都沒有預估"},{"start":12138.02,"end":12140.02,"text":"不是一定有預估"},{"start":12140.02,"end":12142.02,"text":"但是預估的成果跟最後的"},{"start":12142.02,"end":12144.02,"text":"我要了解你預估的成果"},{"start":12144.02,"end":12145.02,"text":"就沒有排擠"},{"start":12145.02,"end":12147.02,"text":"所以你不夠的話"},{"start":12147.02,"end":12149.02,"text":"是我們提到這個國庫來撥補"},{"start":12149.02,"end":12151.02,"text":"好 所以目前的預估"},{"start":12151.02,"end":12152.02,"text":"是不會排擠到"},{"start":12152.02,"end":12153.02,"text":"您的答案"},{"start":12153.02,"end":12155.02,"text":"剛剛有說不會排擠"},{"start":12155.02,"end":12157.02,"text":"沒有 就不會排擠"},{"start":12157.02,"end":12158.02,"text":"好 那沒關係"},{"start":12158.02,"end":12161.02,"text":"那本席希望內政部"},{"start":12161.02,"end":12163.02,"text":"是不是可以向我們立法院提出"},{"start":12163.02,"end":12166.02,"text":"六年期的住宅基金收支評估"},{"start":12167.55,"end":12169.55,"text":"具體說明清安的補貼"},{"start":12169.55,"end":12171.55,"text":"那你說不會排擠"},{"start":12171.55,"end":12172.55,"text":"那我們就看"},{"start":12172.55,"end":12175.55,"text":"你是否會排擠到其他住宅政策"},{"start":12175.55,"end":12176.55,"text":"報告委員您講的六年期"},{"start":12176.55,"end":12179.55,"text":"是從115年的8月1號開始"},{"start":12179.55,"end":12180.55,"text":"對 你預估"},{"start":12180.55,"end":12181.55,"text":"那我可以跟委員報告"},{"start":12181.55,"end":12183.55,"text":"就是我們已跟財政部"},{"start":12183.55,"end":12184.55,"text":"一起來推估的話"},{"start":12184.55,"end":12186.55,"text":"我們六年的期算"},{"start":12186.55,"end":12188.55,"text":"所要補助清安貸款的3.0"},{"start":12188.55,"end":12191.55,"text":"大概是272.71億元"},{"start":12192.18,"end":12193.18,"text":"200多億而已"},{"start":12195.09,"end":12196.09,"text":"我們是律習補貼"},{"start":12196.09,"end":12197.09,"text":"我們都是全合"},{"start":12197.09,"end":12198.09,"text":"我知道 我知道"},{"start":12198.09,"end":12199.09,"text":"不只是清安"},{"start":12199.09,"end":12202.09,"text":"我是住宅基金的收支"},{"start":12202.09,"end":12203.09,"text":"你住宅基金裡面"},{"start":12203.09,"end":12204.09,"text":"你還有社會住宅"},{"start":12204.09,"end":12205.09,"text":"我現在就擔心"},{"start":12205.09,"end":12208.09,"text":"我要你給的是整體住宅基金"},{"start":12208.09,"end":12209.09,"text":"住宅基金裡面"},{"start":12209.09,"end":12210.09,"text":"那因為我們還有住金補貼"},{"start":12210.09,"end":12211.09,"text":"你看我們剛剛"},{"start":12211.09,"end":12214.09,"text":"各個委員都質詢各方面"},{"start":12214.09,"end":12217.09,"text":"所以我們是從清安來看"},{"start":12217.09,"end":12220.09,"text":"你整個住宅基金你的收支評估"},{"start":12220.09,"end":12223.09,"text":"我們希望從今年的第四季開始"},{"start":12223.09,"end":12224.09,"text":"你按季公開"},{"start":12224.09,"end":12227.09,"text":"清安補貼實際支出"},{"start":12227.09,"end":12229.09,"text":"還有承諾未來支出"},{"start":12229.09,"end":12233.09,"text":"包括我們其他方面的支出"},{"start":12233.09,"end":12236.09,"text":"是否排擠整個的影響評估"},{"start":12236.09,"end":12238.09,"text":"按季公開可以嗎"},{"start":12238.98,"end":12239.98,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":12239.98,"end":12241.98,"text":"我們來了解一下按季公開"},{"start":12241.98,"end":12243.98,"text":"是指公開住宅基金"},{"start":12243.98,"end":12246.98,"text":"按季公開我們花了多少錢"},{"start":12246.98,"end":12248.98,"text":"那我們不夠多少錢"},{"start":12248.98,"end":12251.98,"text":"有沒有造成這個所謂的排擠效應"},{"start":12251.98,"end":12252.98,"text":"但是目前為止"},{"start":12252.98,"end":12254.98,"text":"我們已經跟委員講了"},{"start":12254.98,"end":12256.98,"text":"就是說行政院他們同意"},{"start":12256.98,"end":12258.98,"text":"如果我們住宅基金不夠的話"},{"start":12258.98,"end":12259.98,"text":"會由國庫來撥補"},{"start":12259.98,"end":12261.98,"text":"所以我們按季公開"},{"start":12261.98,"end":12262.98,"text":"是要公開哪些項目"},{"start":12262.98,"end":12263.98,"text":"讓我們來回去檢討一下"},{"start":12263.98,"end":12264.98,"text":"再跟委員報告"},{"start":12264.98,"end":12266.98,"text":"哪些項目 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你要審慎評估"},{"start":12971.56,"end":12972.56,"text":"當初沒有審慎評估"},{"start":12972.56,"end":12975.56,"text":"你就說要保障修法的方向"},{"start":12975.56,"end":12977.56,"text":"保障三年的租金"},{"start":12977.56,"end":12978.56,"text":"說在修法的方向"},{"start":12978.56,"end":12980.56,"text":"因為租金是這樣"},{"start":12980.56,"end":12982.56,"text":"強化主任相當的權益"},{"start":12982.56,"end":12983.56,"text":"對不對"},{"start":12983.56,"end":12985.56,"text":"但是整個修法方向"},{"start":12985.56,"end":12986.56,"text":"到目前為止"},{"start":12986.56,"end":12987.56,"text":"因為你現在講了"},{"start":12987.56,"end":12988.56,"text":"你去年講說"},{"start":12988.56,"end":12990.56,"text":"這是你的修法方向"},{"start":12990.56,"end":12994.56,"text":"已經取得開國公聽會"},{"start":12994.56,"end":12996.56,"text":"開國說明會"},{"start":12996.56,"end":12998.56,"text":"結果你現在說"},{"start":12998.56,"end":12999.56,"text":"沒有社會公司"},{"start":12999.56,"end":13002.56,"text":"所以整個修法方向要調整"},{"start":13002.56,"end":13005.56,"text":"所以我們的保障三年的租金"},{"start":13005.56,"end":13009.56,"text":"我們的限制續約租金的帳戶"},{"start":13009.56,"end":13011.56,"text":"這些都是跳票的嗎"},{"start":13012.21,"end":13013.21,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":13013.21,"end":13014.21,"text":"應該不能這樣講"},{"start":13014.21,"end":13016.21,"text":"第一個我們還是有"},{"start":13016.21,"end":13019.21,"text":"我們這個修法方向"},{"start":13019.21,"end":13021.21,"text":"還是要送到大院來"},{"start":13021.21,"end":13023.21,"text":"對 送到大院來"},{"start":13023.21,"end":13025.21,"text":"我現在講的是你自己"},{"start":13025.21,"end":13026.21,"text":"對外公布的"},{"start":13026.21,"end":13027.21,"text":"是的 委員我同意"},{"start":13027.21,"end":13028.21,"text":"你也有說法"},{"start":13028.21,"end":13029.21,"text":"這是你對外公布的"},{"start":13029.21,"end":13031.21,"text":"這不是我們立法委員"},{"start":13031.21,"end":13032.21,"text":"給你建議的"},{"start":13032.21,"end":13034.21,"text":"是你親自公布的"},{"start":13034.21,"end":13035.21,"text":"我知道"},{"start":13035.21,"end":13036.21,"text":"那你現在已經"},{"start":13036.21,"end":13038.21,"text":"這樣的一個方向"},{"start":13038.21,"end":13040.21,"text":"來做一個大轉彎"},{"start":13040.21,"end":13041.21,"text":"大跳票"},{"start":13041.21,"end":13043.21,"text":"你要不要做一個說明"},{"start":13046.03,"end":13048.03,"text":"為何轉彎這麼大的方向"},{"start":13048.03,"end":13049.03,"text":"報告委員我剛剛講了"},{"start":13049.03,"end":13050.03,"text":"就是我們提出的"},{"start":13050.03,"end":13052.03,"text":"這個五大修法方向裡面"},{"start":13052.03,"end":13054.03,"text":"現在就是把保障租期"},{"start":13054.03,"end":13056.03,"text":"跟限制租金的部分"},{"start":13056.03,"end":13058.03,"text":"稍微往後再做評論"},{"start":13058.03,"end":13059.03,"text":"我在這邊比較"},{"start":13060.1,"end":13061.1,"text":"Yeah"},{"start":13061.6,"end":13062.6,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":13063.1,"end":13064.1,"text":"整個修法方向"},{"start":13064.1,"end":13065.1,"text":"原來是"},{"start":13065.1,"end":13066.1,"text":"原來是保障"},{"start":13067.2,"end":13068.2,"text":"長客"},{"start":13068.2,"end":13069.2,"text":"出去交會啦"},{"start":13069.72,"end":13071.72,"text":"你把這個部分拿掉"},{"start":13072.84,"end":13073.84,"text":"下不去"},{"start":13075.06,"end":13077.06,"text":"比較保障房東"},{"start":13077.06,"end":13078.06,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":13078.06,"end":13079.06,"text":"房東跟房客"},{"start":13079.06,"end":13080.06,"text":"這個後面"},{"start":13080.06,"end":13081.06,"text":"房東跟房客"},{"start":13081.06,"end":13082.06,"text":"他們一定要承認"},{"start":13082.06,"end":13084.06,"text":"怎麼這個一定要"},{"start":13084.06,"end":13085.06,"text":"我跟你們了解"},{"start":13085.06,"end":13086.06,"text":"我跟你一樣的立場"},{"start":13086.06,"end":13087.06,"text":"我們希望有房東"},{"start":13087.06,"end":13088.06,"text":"是不是"},{"start":13088.06,"end":13090.06,"text":"房東基本上是"},{"start":13090.06,"end":13092.06,"text":"房東如果不願意買賬的話"},{"start":13092.06,"end":13094.06,"text":"沒有房東跟房客"},{"start":13094.06,"end":13095.06,"text":"房東啊"},{"start":13095.06,"end":13096.06,"text":"這是最大的麻煩"},{"start":13096.06,"end":13097.06,"text":"房東啊"},{"start":13097.06,"end":13098.06,"text":"沒有沒有"},{"start":13098.06,"end":13099.06,"text":"這是跟房東帶管"},{"start":13099.06,"end":13100.06,"text":"沒有絕對的關係"},{"start":13100.06,"end":13101.06,"text":"其實這有一個串聯"},{"start":13101.06,"end":13103.06,"text":"房東加保主帶管"},{"start":13103.06,"end":13105.06,"text":"保主帶管加房東"},{"start":13105.06,"end":13107.06,"text":"會形成比較大的"},{"start":13107.06,"end":13109.06,"text":"優勢的能力"},{"start":13109.06,"end":13112.06,"text":"我不希望你的修法方向"},{"start":13112.06,"end":13115.06,"text":"因為這樣而犧牲"},{"start":13115.06,"end":13116.06,"text":"房客的保障"},{"start":13116.06,"end":13117.06,"text":"我們沒有犧牲房客的意義"},{"start":13117.06,"end":13118.06,"text":"我只是"},{"start":13118.06,"end":13119.06,"text":"我只是跟委員講"},{"start":13119.06,"end":13122.06,"text":"你的修法還是要再提防衛"},{"start":13122.06,"end":13124.06,"text":"所以我只是在這裡"},{"start":13124.06,"end":13125.06,"text":"先提醒我們"},{"start":13125.06,"end":13126.06,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":13126.06,"end":13127.06,"text":"我們也期待"},{"start":13127.06,"end":13129.06,"text":"透過我們房東"},{"start":13129.06,"end":13130.06,"text":"房客的權益"},{"start":13130.06,"end":13131.06,"text":"我們會把這些"},{"start":13131.06,"end":13133.06,"text":"我們會把這些表達出來"},{"start":13133.06,"end":13136.06,"text":"趕快把法案送到理外院來"},{"start":13136.06,"end":13137.06,"text":"請大家"},{"start":13137.06,"end":13138.06,"text":"那時候可以"},{"start":13139.43,"end":13140.43,"text":"這個部分的話"},{"start":13140.43,"end":13141.43,"text":"修法部分"},{"start":13141.43,"end":13142.43,"text":"因為還有一些"},{"start":13142.43,"end":13144.43,"text":"有關於強制執行的部分"},{"start":13144.43,"end":13145.43,"text":"要跟司法院"},{"start":13145.43,"end":13147.43,"text":"還有縣市政府來討論"},{"start":13147.43,"end":13148.43,"text":"所以那個部分"},{"start":13148.43,"end":13151.43,"text":"那個我們會盡快"},{"start":13151.43,"end":13153.43,"text":"你們現在是卡在主辦財款嗎"},{"start":13153.43,"end":13155.43,"text":"還有跟縣市政府"},{"start":13155.43,"end":13158.43,"text":"跟司法院來議情的時候"},{"start":13158.43,"end":13159.43,"text":"最快最快"},{"start":13159.43,"end":13161.43,"text":"這個還要再細部討論"},{"start":13161.43,"end":13162.43,"text":"因為還要看"},{"start":13162.43,"end":13163.43,"text":"司法院的態度"},{"start":13163.43,"end":13164.43,"text":"跟縣市政府"},{"start":13164.43,"end":13165.43,"text":"你們是今天"},{"start":13165.43,"end":13166.43,"text":"今天"},{"start":13168.13,"end":13170.13,"text":"我們沒辦法掌握進度"},{"start":13170.13,"end":13171.13,"text":"然後還有行政院"},{"start":13171.13,"end":13172.13,"text":"他們也是希望"},{"start":13172.13,"end":13173.13,"text":"我們能夠快"},{"start":13173.13,"end":13174.13,"text":"但是剛剛提到"},{"start":13174.13,"end":13175.13,"text":"我也希望能夠快"},{"start":13175.13,"end":13176.13,"text":"因為司法院"},{"start":13176.13,"end":13177.13,"text":"沒有給我們"},{"start":13177.13,"end":13178.13,"text":"既定了答案的時候"},{"start":13178.13,"end":13179.13,"text":"我們只能空白"},{"start":13179.13,"end":13180.13,"text":"這樣子把人家"},{"start":13180.13,"end":13182.13,"text":"我們都想在處理"},{"start":13182.13,"end":13184.13,"text":"處理這個條例的"},{"start":13184.13,"end":13185.13,"text":"所以我們的意見"},{"start":13185.13,"end":13186.13,"text":"我們都已經進去了"},{"start":13186.13,"end":13187.13,"text":"不讓房東房客"},{"start":13187.13,"end":13188.13,"text":"我們希望你們"},{"start":13188.13,"end":13190.13,"text":"做快速度"},{"start":13190.13,"end":13191.13,"text":"好不好"},{"start":13191.35,"end":13192.35,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":13197.8,"end":13199.8,"text":"好 我們下一位請林黛樺委員發言質詢"},{"start":13199.8,"end":13201.8,"text":"林黛樺 林黛樺 林黛樺不在"},{"start":13201.8,"end":13203.8,"text":"下一位請林倩琪委員發言質詢"},{"start":13203.8,"end":13205.8,"text":"林倩琪 林倩琪 林倩琪不在"},{"start":13205.8,"end":13207.8,"text":"我們下一位請葉元之委員發言質詢"},{"start":13208.92,"end":13209.92,"text":"居然在"},{"start":13217.12,"end":13219.12,"text":"主席好 麻煩請部長 內政部長 謝謝"},{"start":13220.72,"end":13222.72,"text":"部長 我想跟您請教一下"},{"start":13222.72,"end":13224.72,"text":"就是其實大家還是希望能夠"},{"start":13224.72,"end":13226.72,"text":"直接興建社會住宅"},{"start":13226.72,"end":13228.72,"text":"那時候賴總統"},{"start":13228.72,"end":13230.72,"text":"他在選舉的時候提到一個政見"},{"start":13230.72,"end":13232.72,"text":"他是延續著"},{"start":13232.72,"end":13235.72,"text":"蔡英文總統的基礎"},{"start":13235.72,"end":13237.72,"text":"但是那時候蔡英文總統"},{"start":13237.72,"end":13238.72,"text":"他訂的社會住宅目標"},{"start":13238.72,"end":13239.72,"text":"他訂20萬戶"},{"start":13239.72,"end":13241.72,"text":"他是12萬戶直接興建"},{"start":13241.72,"end":13243.72,"text":"加上8萬戶的租金"},{"start":13243.72,"end":13244.72,"text":"租補貼20萬戶"},{"start":13244.72,"end":13245.72,"text":"包租貸款"},{"start":13245.72,"end":13246.72,"text":"包租貸款"},{"start":13246.72,"end":13247.72,"text":"其實就已經"},{"start":13247.72,"end":13248.72,"text":"受到大家很多質疑"},{"start":13248.72,"end":13250.72,"text":"因為大家期待是完工"},{"start":13250.72,"end":13252.72,"text":"甚至於是已經發包出去的"},{"start":13252.72,"end":13254.72,"text":"可是其實賴總統那時候"},{"start":13254.72,"end":13256.72,"text":"他算那12萬戶"},{"start":13256.72,"end":13258.72,"text":"已經把很多什麼規劃中"},{"start":13258.72,"end":13259.72,"text":"招標中"},{"start":13259.72,"end":13260.72,"text":"類似這樣子"},{"start":13260.72,"end":13262.72,"text":"就是還看不到的"},{"start":13262.72,"end":13263.72,"text":"拿進來計算"},{"start":13263.72,"end":13264.72,"text":"所以有一個就是"},{"start":13264.72,"end":13266.72,"text":"到底蔡英文總統有沒有跳票的爭議"},{"start":13266.72,"end":13268.72,"text":"那時候背景是這樣"},{"start":13268.72,"end":13270.72,"text":"所以當賴慶州總統"},{"start":13270.72,"end":13272.72,"text":"又推出一個要直接興建13萬戶的"},{"start":13272.72,"end":13274.72,"text":"然後要含包租貸款"},{"start":13274.72,"end":13276.72,"text":"加上租補貼100萬戶"},{"start":13276.72,"end":13277.72,"text":"這樣計畫的時候"},{"start":13277.72,"end":13279.72,"text":"其實那個時候很多人提出質疑"},{"start":13279.72,"end":13281.72,"text":"覺得這是不是又是一個拔蠟票"},{"start":13281.72,"end":13282.72,"text":"是不是又是隨便含含"},{"start":13282.72,"end":13284.72,"text":"我不知道那個部長您當時是立委"},{"start":13284.72,"end":13287.72,"text":"您應該也有記得這個過程"},{"start":13287.72,"end":13289.72,"text":"結果那時候賴清德總統"},{"start":13289.72,"end":13290.72,"text":"那時候是副總統說"},{"start":13290.72,"end":13291.72,"text":"不會發生這個狀況"},{"start":13291.72,"end":13293.72,"text":"一定會很努力把它達成"},{"start":13293.72,"end":13294.72,"text":"結果沒有想到"},{"start":13294.72,"end":13296.72,"text":"才上任兩年就大轉彎"},{"start":13296.72,"end":13298.72,"text":"直接興建13萬戶"},{"start":13298.72,"end":13300.72,"text":"直接縮水變3萬戶"},{"start":13300.72,"end":13301.72,"text":"其中3萬戶"},{"start":13301.72,"end":13303.72,"text":"裡面還有2.5萬戶是"},{"start":13303.72,"end":13305.72,"text":"蔡英文總統當時規劃的"},{"start":13305.72,"end":13308.72,"text":"代表當時他在規劃這個政見的時候"},{"start":13308.72,"end":13310.72,"text":"就沒有很認真很仔細"},{"start":13310.72,"end":13312.72,"text":"去思考說到底能不能做到"},{"start":13312.72,"end":13314.72,"text":"那我覺得這樣國會失望"},{"start":13314.72,"end":13316.72,"text":"國會覺得說對你期望這麼高"},{"start":13316.72,"end":13318.72,"text":"很多人可能也是因為這樣投票給他"},{"start":13318.72,"end":13322.72,"text":"只有兩年之後就自己就宣布跳票"},{"start":13322.72,"end":13324.72,"text":"那到底為什麼會這樣"},{"start":13324.72,"end":13327.72,"text":"報告委員蔡總統並沒有跳票"},{"start":13327.72,"end":13329.72,"text":"但是我也要跟委員講到"},{"start":13329.72,"end":13331.72,"text":"蓋房子真的不是一朝一夕就可以完成"},{"start":13331.72,"end":13332.72,"text":"那當然了"},{"start":13332.72,"end":13333.72,"text":"這個我都知道"},{"start":13333.72,"end":13334.72,"text":"這個我都知道"},{"start":13334.72,"end":13336.72,"text":"我聽說那既然這麼困難"},{"start":13336.72,"end":13339.72,"text":"為什麼他會提出這樣的一個目標"},{"start":13339.72,"end":13341.72,"text":"他也可以講說"},{"start":13341.72,"end":13343.72,"text":"蓋房子沒有那麼容易"},{"start":13343.72,"end":13346.72,"text":"所以蔡總統很努力的盡量完成"},{"start":13346.72,"end":13348.72,"text":"那我們就增加多少"},{"start":13348.72,"end":13349.72,"text":"你可以這樣子講保守一點"},{"start":13349.72,"end":13350.72,"text":"可是沒有"},{"start":13350.72,"end":13353.72,"text":"開支票的時候都講得很厲害"},{"start":13353.72,"end":13355.72,"text":"然後結果要執行的時候就說"},{"start":13355.72,"end":13356.72,"text":"沒那麼容易"},{"start":13356.72,"end":13357.72,"text":"所以我們縮水"},{"start":13357.72,"end":13358.72,"text":"我覺得他慢慢就會"},{"start":13358.72,"end":13360.72,"text":"講的話我們就不會信了"},{"start":13360.72,"end":13361.72,"text":"就是政府官員講的話"},{"start":13361.72,"end":13362.72,"text":"大家就慢慢就不信"},{"start":13362.72,"end":13364.72,"text":"會不會兩年後又時空環境變了"},{"start":13364.72,"end":13365.72,"text":"又什麼狀況"},{"start":13365.72,"end":13367.72,"text":"導致於之前講的又不算話"},{"start":13367.72,"end":13369.72,"text":"報告委員我想您對社會住宅的關心"},{"start":13369.72,"end":13370.72,"text":"我們也都了解"},{"start":13370.72,"end":13374.72,"text":"但是我還是一再跟委員報告說"},{"start":13374.72,"end":13376.72,"text":"13萬戶的目標真的沒有改變"},{"start":13376.72,"end":13379.72,"text":"改變的部分就是社會住宅的直接興建"},{"start":13379.72,"end":13380.72,"text":"我們改成是通聯興建"},{"start":13380.72,"end":13381.72,"text":"我們講就是直接興建"},{"start":13381.72,"end":13382.72,"text":"不然我們不要玩文字遊戲"},{"start":13382.72,"end":13384.72,"text":"那時候講得很清楚"},{"start":13384.72,"end":13385.72,"text":"直接興建13萬戶"},{"start":13385.72,"end":13387.72,"text":"你現在講的是公務機關"},{"start":13387.72,"end":13389.72,"text":"公務機關包括中央跟地方"},{"start":13390.72,"end":13392.72,"text":"賴總統講的當然是中央機關"},{"start":13392.72,"end":13394.72,"text":"你怎麼會把地方算進來"},{"start":13394.72,"end":13396.72,"text":"地方是要看地方政府的努力"},{"start":13396.72,"end":13397.72,"text":"加地方"},{"start":13397.72,"end":13398.72,"text":"沒有啦"},{"start":13398.72,"end":13399.72,"text":"他講的是中央加地方"},{"start":13399.72,"end":13402.72,"text":"他是總統他可以管得到地方政府"},{"start":13402.72,"end":13404.72,"text":"這還把責任甩給地方政府"},{"start":13404.72,"end":13405.72,"text":"沒關係啦"},{"start":13405.72,"end":13407.72,"text":"你們因為這已經很正式"},{"start":13407.72,"end":13409.72,"text":"我希望說你們還是盡量要努力"},{"start":13409.72,"end":13411.72,"text":"不要找一個理由藉口"},{"start":13411.72,"end":13412.72,"text":"就說因為很困難"},{"start":13412.72,"end":13413.72,"text":"所以我就不做"},{"start":13413.72,"end":13414.72,"text":"我覺得還是要"},{"start":13414.72,"end":13415.72,"text":"我完全接受"},{"start":13415.72,"end":13416.72,"text":"所以我們會非常努力"},{"start":13416.72,"end":13420.72,"text":"不然國人真的會越來越失望"},{"start":13420.72,"end":13422.72,"text":"那我現在跟您請教一個問題"},{"start":13422.72,"end":13424.72,"text":"因為那時候您是講說"},{"start":13424.72,"end":13426.72,"text":"為什麼會有這樣的改變"},{"start":13426.72,"end":13428.72,"text":"主要是至少我在新聞上面看到"},{"start":13428.72,"end":13429.72,"text":"是有兩個原因"},{"start":13429.72,"end":13432.72,"text":"一個原因是你說現在社會變遷了"},{"start":13432.72,"end":13434.72,"text":"社會變遷真的萬用的答案"},{"start":13434.72,"end":13435.72,"text":"時空環境變了"},{"start":13435.72,"end":13437.72,"text":"第二個您是講說"},{"start":13438.02,"end":13441.02,"text":"社宅會不會變成另外一種空餘屋"},{"start":13441.02,"end":13442.02,"text":"這句話什麼意思"},{"start":13442.02,"end":13443.02,"text":"可不可以請您進一步說明一下"},{"start":13443.02,"end":13444.02,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":13444.02,"end":13446.02,"text":"在過去一段時間以來"},{"start":13446.02,"end":13448.02,"text":"我們知道說要蓋這個社會住宅"},{"start":13448.02,"end":13450.02,"text":"當然現在量還沒有衝出來"},{"start":13450.02,"end":13452.02,"text":"那在蔡總統任內到賴總統的時候"},{"start":13452.02,"end":13455.02,"text":"全台灣的22個縣市都有社宅"},{"start":13455.02,"end":13457.02,"text":"那現在社宅陸陸續續完工之後"},{"start":13457.02,"end":13458.02,"text":"我們要考慮的"},{"start":13458.02,"end":13461.02,"text":"不是所謂的講了這個社會變遷"},{"start":13461.02,"end":13463.02,"text":"而是哪個地方的人"},{"start":13463.02,"end":13465.02,"text":"哪個地方的身分的人"},{"start":13465.02,"end":13467.02,"text":"比較需要社會住宅"},{"start":13467.02,"end":13468.02,"text":"後來發現到說"},{"start":13468.02,"end":13470.02,"text":"包括我們從租金補貼裡面做分析"},{"start":13470.02,"end":13472.02,"text":"覺得在北北桃中"},{"start":13472.02,"end":13474.02,"text":"這樣的一個蛋黃區域裡面"},{"start":13474.02,"end":13476.02,"text":"需要社會住宅的比例會比較高"},{"start":13476.02,"end":13478.02,"text":"那所以很多偏鄉"},{"start":13478.02,"end":13480.02,"text":"非常偏遠地區的偏鄉"},{"start":13480.02,"end":13482.02,"text":"我們如果為了只要有空地"},{"start":13482.02,"end":13483.02,"text":"盤整出來的空地"},{"start":13483.02,"end":13486.02,"text":"然後到時候變成沒有人去"},{"start":13486.02,"end":13487.02,"text":"那個就是所謂的空屋"},{"start":13487.02,"end":13488.02,"text":"謝謝部長說明"},{"start":13488.02,"end":13489.02,"text":"所以您講的空餘屋"},{"start":13489.02,"end":13491.02,"text":"其實您是擔心說"},{"start":13491.02,"end":13493.02,"text":"在全台灣有一些縣市"},{"start":13493.02,"end":13494.02,"text":"縣市偏鄉地區"},{"start":13494.02,"end":13496.02,"text":"如果蓋太多的話會有空餘屋"},{"start":13496.02,"end":13497.02,"text":"應該是這個意思"},{"start":13497.02,"end":13498.02,"text":"那如果是這樣的話"},{"start":13498.02,"end":13501.02,"text":"其實我認為你應該可以增加"},{"start":13501.02,"end":13504.02,"text":"就是你把資源放在人口比較密集"},{"start":13504.02,"end":13506.02,"text":"需求量比較大的地方"},{"start":13506.02,"end":13507.02,"text":"應該要這樣子"},{"start":13507.02,"end":13509.02,"text":"所以不要講說有空餘屋"},{"start":13509.02,"end":13511.02,"text":"我覺得你還是可以朝向那個目標"},{"start":13511.02,"end":13512.02,"text":"就是你講的十三萬戶"},{"start":13512.02,"end":13515.02,"text":"只是說你做一些調整"},{"start":13515.02,"end":13517.02,"text":"我們所講的部分的前言後語"},{"start":13517.02,"end":13518.02,"text":"都把它給了解"},{"start":13518.02,"end":13519.02,"text":"我說你可以做一些調整"},{"start":13519.02,"end":13521.02,"text":"例如說你本來有一些資源"},{"start":13521.02,"end":13523.02,"text":"要放在南部或偏鄉"},{"start":13523.02,"end":13524.02,"text":"但是你後來發現"},{"start":13524.02,"end":13526.02,"text":"這樣蓋下去會有空餘屋"},{"start":13526.02,"end":13528.02,"text":"你可以把這個資源就挪移到"},{"start":13528.02,"end":13530.02,"text":"比如說你覺得比較需要的地方"},{"start":13530.02,"end":13531.02,"text":"舉例來講"},{"start":13531.02,"end":13532.02,"text":"像新北市我認為很需要"},{"start":13532.02,"end":13534.02,"text":"因為新北市就我了解"},{"start":13534.02,"end":13535.02,"text":"社會住宅的重遷率"},{"start":13535.02,"end":13536.02,"text":"大概有10%的"},{"start":13536.02,"end":13538.02,"text":"然後好一點的是30%"},{"start":13538.02,"end":13541.02,"text":"所以你如果在新北市蓋的話"},{"start":13541.02,"end":13542.02,"text":"把資源移過來"},{"start":13542.02,"end":13544.02,"text":"我覺得你同時可以達到"},{"start":13544.02,"end":13545.02,"text":"你要的目標"},{"start":13545.02,"end":13546.02,"text":"十三萬戶"},{"start":13546.02,"end":13547.02,"text":"這是一個很好的方向"},{"start":13547.02,"end":13548.02,"text":"同時對"},{"start":13548.02,"end":13550.02,"text":"所以因為我跟新北市政府配合的"},{"start":13550.02,"end":13551.02,"text":"你忽然講空餘屋"},{"start":13551.02,"end":13552.02,"text":"大家會覺得說"},{"start":13552.02,"end":13553.02,"text":"沒有沒有沒有"},{"start":13553.02,"end":13555.02,"text":"我們那邊就沒有這個問題"},{"start":13555.02,"end":13556.02,"text":"我有特別提到"},{"start":13556.02,"end":13557.02,"text":"我有特別提到"},{"start":13557.02,"end":13558.02,"text":"他要稀缺土地"},{"start":13558.02,"end":13560.02,"text":"然後因為北北桃中的稀缺土地"},{"start":13560.02,"end":13561.02,"text":"真的非常多"},{"start":13561.02,"end":13563.02,"text":"所以我們才希望"},{"start":13563.02,"end":13565.02,"text":"因為我知道國土署也都有盤點很多"},{"start":13565.02,"end":13567.02,"text":"在這個北北基"},{"start":13567.02,"end":13568.02,"text":"你說北北基桃嗎"},{"start":13568.02,"end":13570.02,"text":"這些保養桃中"},{"start":13570.02,"end":13571.02,"text":"就是有比較多"},{"start":13571.02,"end":13573.02,"text":"你沒有土地盤整"},{"start":13573.02,"end":13574.02,"text":"也有盤整"},{"start":13574.02,"end":13575.02,"text":"那你把資源移過來"},{"start":13575.02,"end":13578.02,"text":"就不會在其他地方造成空餘屋"},{"start":13578.02,"end":13579.02,"text":"然後又可以"},{"start":13579.02,"end":13581.02,"text":"達到你們要蓋社會住宅"},{"start":13581.02,"end":13582.02,"text":"直接興建目標"},{"start":13582.02,"end":13584.02,"text":"我是覺得可以朝這個方向"},{"start":13584.02,"end":13585.02,"text":"然後第二個好"},{"start":13585.02,"end":13586.02,"text":"我跟部長請教一下"},{"start":13587.12,"end":13589.12,"text":"現在中央因為國土署"},{"start":13589.12,"end":13591.12,"text":"都會公布"},{"start":13591.16,"end":13593.16,"text":"每個月都會公布新辦進度"},{"start":13594.65,"end":13596.65,"text":"那數字就會調整"},{"start":13596.65,"end":13597.65,"text":"我不知道為什麼"},{"start":13597.65,"end":13598.65,"text":"譬如說我們看"},{"start":13598.65,"end":13600.65,"text":"2026年7月"},{"start":13600.65,"end":13602.65,"text":"我們先看2026年4月30號規劃中"},{"start":13602.65,"end":13603.65,"text":"因為規劃中"},{"start":13603.65,"end":13604.65,"text":"到底規劃哪裡"},{"start":13604.65,"end":13606.65,"text":"我希望今天會後"},{"start":13606.65,"end":13609.65,"text":"國土署可以給我一份比較詳細的報告"},{"start":13610.19,"end":13611.19,"text":"譬如說以新北市來說"},{"start":13611.19,"end":13615.19,"text":"中央的部分規劃中是8,375戶"},{"start":13615.19,"end":13618.19,"text":"這是2026年4月30號的數字"},{"start":13618.19,"end":13621.19,"text":"但是到了2026年7月31號"},{"start":13621.19,"end":13624.19,"text":"新北市中央規劃中的數字"},{"start":13624.19,"end":13627.19,"text":"變成7,078戶"},{"start":13627.19,"end":13629.19,"text":"就少了1,200多戶"},{"start":13629.19,"end":13631.19,"text":"那我不知道為什麼忽然減少"},{"start":13631.19,"end":13633.19,"text":"規劃中為什麼忽然規劃"},{"start":13633.19,"end":13634.19,"text":"然後又不做了"},{"start":13634.19,"end":13635.19,"text":"不做了還是怎麼樣"},{"start":13636.25,"end":13638.25,"text":"那是遇到什麼困難"},{"start":13638.3,"end":13639.3,"text":"是遇到什麼困難"},{"start":13639.3,"end":13642.3,"text":"還是說因為反正都已經講了"},{"start":13642.3,"end":13645.3,"text":"我們現在13萬戶要直接變成3萬戶"},{"start":13645.3,"end":13646.3,"text":"目標沒那麼遠大了"},{"start":13646.3,"end":13648.3,"text":"所以我也沒那麼積極了"},{"start":13648.3,"end":13649.3,"text":"是什麼原因"},{"start":13651.25,"end":13652.25,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":13652.25,"end":13654.25,"text":"其實這個一些社宅的一個量"},{"start":13654.25,"end":13657.25,"text":"我們固定跟縣市政府都有一個會議在召開"},{"start":13657.25,"end":13658.25,"text":"那有些是當初"},{"start":13658.25,"end":13659.25,"text":"我先講的是中央的部分"},{"start":13659.25,"end":13661.25,"text":"好不好你就回答我的問題就好"},{"start":13661.25,"end":13663.25,"text":"不要什麼都扯到地方"},{"start":13663.25,"end":13664.25,"text":"中央的部分"},{"start":13664.25,"end":13665.25,"text":"中央你就知道了"},{"start":13665.25,"end":13666.25,"text":"其實中央的一些用地的部分"},{"start":13666.25,"end":13668.25,"text":"涉及到一些相關的"},{"start":13668.25,"end":13669.25,"text":"對我現在就問你"},{"start":13669.25,"end":13670.25,"text":"所以你也會知道"},{"start":13670.25,"end":13671.25,"text":"你回答我問題就好了"},{"start":13671.25,"end":13672.25,"text":"那有時候這些機關"},{"start":13672.25,"end":13674.25,"text":"他對那些原來庫存的這個土地"},{"start":13674.25,"end":13675.25,"text":"他有需求"},{"start":13675.25,"end":13677.25,"text":"那會就因為這樣"},{"start":13677.25,"end":13678.25,"text":"你現在講的是可能狀況"},{"start":13678.25,"end":13679.25,"text":"可能狀況嗎"},{"start":13679.25,"end":13680.25,"text":"我現在問你的是具體狀況"},{"start":13680.25,"end":13682.25,"text":"就是新北市規劃中"},{"start":13682.25,"end":13684.25,"text":"4月有8000多戶"},{"start":13684.25,"end":13686.25,"text":"到7月剩7000戶"},{"start":13686.25,"end":13688.25,"text":"少了1200戶什麼原因"},{"start":13688.25,"end":13690.25,"text":"這是具體的問題"},{"start":13690.25,"end":13692.25,"text":"不用跟我講原則的東西"},{"start":13692.25,"end":13693.25,"text":"我們再查一下"},{"start":13693.25,"end":13694.25,"text":"因為這個原因"},{"start":13694.25,"end":13695.25,"text":"那沒關係你現在答不出來"},{"start":13695.25,"end":13696.25,"text":"我就說"},{"start":13696.25,"end":13698.25,"text":"我剛說會後你提供給我"},{"start":13698.25,"end":13699.25,"text":"但是不要說"},{"start":13699.25,"end":13701.25,"text":"你不知道答案就在那邊亂扯"},{"start":13701.25,"end":13703.25,"text":"說這搞不好是地方政府的問題"},{"start":13703.25,"end":13704.25,"text":"那亂扯這幹嘛"},{"start":13704.25,"end":13705.25,"text":"要浪費大家時間"},{"start":13705.25,"end":13706.25,"text":"好不好"},{"start":13706.25,"end":13708.25,"text":"因為我想要了解一下"},{"start":13708.25,"end":13709.25,"text":"是不是因為"},{"start":13709.25,"end":13710.25,"text":"你們目標減少之後"},{"start":13710.25,"end":13711.25,"text":"你們就沒那麼積極"},{"start":13711.25,"end":13712.25,"text":"我想了解這件事"},{"start":13712.25,"end":13713.25,"text":"你就告訴我"},{"start":13713.25,"end":13714.25,"text":"為什麼要減少"},{"start":13714.25,"end":13715.25,"text":"好不好"},{"start":13715.25,"end":13716.25,"text":"告訴我"},{"start":13716.25,"end":13717.25,"text":"然後盡量公開透明"},{"start":13717.25,"end":13719.25,"text":"大家往新建的方向去做"},{"start":13719.25,"end":13720.25,"text":"然後再來"},{"start":13720.25,"end":13721.25,"text":"跟部長請教一下"},{"start":13721.25,"end":13722.25,"text":"一個簡單的問題"},{"start":13722.25,"end":13724.25,"text":"因為除了直接新建社會住宅"},{"start":13724.25,"end":13725.25,"text":"還有包租代管"},{"start":13725.25,"end":13727.25,"text":"因為最近不是有發生問題嗎"},{"start":13727.25,"end":13728.25,"text":"那大家就發現說"},{"start":13728.25,"end":13731.25,"text":"這樣一個商業模式可能需要檢討"},{"start":13731.25,"end":13733.25,"text":"因為像發生問題那家公司"},{"start":13733.25,"end":13735.25,"text":"其實很多錢是在他那邊"},{"start":13735.25,"end":13736.25,"text":"房東的"},{"start":13736.25,"end":13738.25,"text":"就是要給房東的錢是在他那邊"},{"start":13738.25,"end":13739.25,"text":"就從房客那邊收過來的"},{"start":13739.25,"end":13741.25,"text":"還有房客的押金也在他那邊"},{"start":13741.25,"end":13742.25,"text":"所以他一旦"},{"start":13742.25,"end":13744.25,"text":"發生財務問題的時候"},{"start":13744.25,"end":13745.25,"text":"萬一我們沒有一個"},{"start":13745.25,"end":13746.25,"text":"好的保障機制"},{"start":13746.25,"end":13747.25,"text":"搞不好"},{"start":13747.64,"end":13748.64,"text":"房東會拿不到錢"},{"start":13748.64,"end":13750.64,"text":"搞不好房客的押金會拿不回來"},{"start":13750.64,"end":13752.64,"text":"所以我想問說"},{"start":13752.64,"end":13753.64,"text":"現在有沒有出現"},{"start":13753.64,"end":13755.64,"text":"像房東的錢拿不到的狀況"},{"start":13755.64,"end":13756.64,"text":"有沒有"},{"start":13759.15,"end":13761.15,"text":"各位報告目前都沒有"},{"start":13761.15,"end":13762.15,"text":"會不會有"},{"start":13762.69,"end":13765.69,"text":"現階段看起來應該可以穩得住"},{"start":13765.69,"end":13767.69,"text":"但我希望我們盡可能的"},{"start":13767.69,"end":13768.69,"text":"把這個部分穩住"},{"start":13768.69,"end":13770.69,"text":"盡可能穩住什麼意思"},{"start":13770.69,"end":13772.69,"text":"如果他到時候都財務狀況"},{"start":13772.69,"end":13774.69,"text":"然後他後面就不處理"},{"start":13774.69,"end":13775.69,"text":"因為錢"},{"start":13775.69,"end":13777.69,"text":"那你說怎麼穩住"},{"start":13777.69,"end":13779.69,"text":"現在我們把他手上"},{"start":13779.69,"end":13782.69,"text":"盡量在一個月之內"},{"start":13782.69,"end":13785.69,"text":"把他轉到其他的業者的服務手上"},{"start":13785.69,"end":13787.69,"text":"那其實這個部分又重新接上"},{"start":13787.69,"end":13789.69,"text":"就不會有這個問題了"},{"start":13791.09,"end":13793.09,"text":"照理說現在公司也正在重新整頓"},{"start":13793.09,"end":13795.09,"text":"我們當然希望他穩下來"},{"start":13795.09,"end":13797.09,"text":"那另外從實質面的角度來看是"},{"start":13798.9,"end":13800.9,"text":"就帶一個問題一個問題來"},{"start":13800.9,"end":13802.9,"text":"第一個你可以確定就是"},{"start":13802.9,"end":13804.9,"text":"所有的房東都收到錢了"},{"start":13804.9,"end":13806.9,"text":"不會有房東收不到錢的狀況"},{"start":13806.9,"end":13807.9,"text":"我不能說百分之百"},{"start":13807.9,"end":13808.9,"text":"但是現在不會發生"},{"start":13808.9,"end":13809.9,"text":"現在也沒發生"},{"start":13809.9,"end":13811.9,"text":"剛剛你有回答沒發生過"},{"start":13811.9,"end":13812.9,"text":"就是說會不會發生"},{"start":13812.9,"end":13813.9,"text":"預期接下來"},{"start":13813.9,"end":13816.9,"text":"除非出現了我們預料之外的一些狀況"},{"start":13816.9,"end":13817.9,"text":"但是本質上"},{"start":13817.9,"end":13819.9,"text":"有朝現在的方向"},{"start":13819.9,"end":13822.9,"text":"我們還是可以相對樂觀"},{"start":13822.9,"end":13823.9,"text":"來看待說"},{"start":13826.35,"end":13827.35,"text":"那因為貸款的部分"},{"start":13827.35,"end":13830.35,"text":"貸款案其實是房東和房客之間的關係"},{"start":13830.35,"end":13833.35,"text":"業者完全沒有碰到那一筆租金"},{"start":13833.35,"end":13835.35,"text":"所以那個部分本質上不會有問題"},{"start":13835.35,"end":13837.35,"text":"那是包租的這個部分"},{"start":13837.35,"end":13839.35,"text":"包租的部分"},{"start":13839.35,"end":13840.35,"text":"那押金的部分"},{"start":13840.86,"end":13842.86,"text":"押金其實也是一樣啊"},{"start":13842.86,"end":13846.86,"text":"貸款案的也是房東直接拿房客的押金"},{"start":13846.86,"end":13848.86,"text":"業者也不會碰那個押金"},{"start":13848.86,"end":13850.86,"text":"那業者主要會碰到什麼"},{"start":13850.86,"end":13852.86,"text":"包租案"},{"start":13852.86,"end":13853.86,"text":"我講就是包租案"},{"start":13853.86,"end":13855.86,"text":"包租案會有"},{"start":13855.86,"end":13858.86,"text":"業者付押金給原房東"},{"start":13858.86,"end":13861.86,"text":"房客再付押金給業者"},{"start":13861.86,"end":13863.86,"text":"這是兩份租約"},{"start":13863.86,"end":13864.86,"text":"我講的就是這個"},{"start":13864.86,"end":13868.86,"text":"那現在這兩筆錢其實是一樣大的"},{"start":13868.86,"end":13871.86,"text":"所以說一旦業者把押金還給業者"},{"start":13871.86,"end":13874.86,"text":"房東就有那筆錢可以還給房客"},{"start":13874.86,"end":13878.86,"text":"那目前這筆錢也不在業者手上"},{"start":13878.86,"end":13882.86,"text":"因為那筆錢是房客拿給業者"},{"start":13882.86,"end":13883.86,"text":"業者又拿給房東"},{"start":13883.86,"end":13885.86,"text":"所以還是在房東身上"},{"start":13885.86,"end":13888.86,"text":"對那是因為時間會有一個時間差"},{"start":13888.86,"end":13889.86,"text":"會有一個時間差"},{"start":13889.86,"end":13891.86,"text":"剛好有給的話就沒這個問題"},{"start":13891.86,"end":13892.86,"text":"但如果有時間差"},{"start":13892.86,"end":13894.86,"text":"所以第一個就是說"},{"start":13894.86,"end":13896.86,"text":"你是說現在了解沒有發生狀況"},{"start":13896.86,"end":13898.86,"text":"至少就是房東房客權益不會受損"},{"start":13898.86,"end":13900.86,"text":"第二個就是從這個個案"},{"start":13900.86,"end":13902.86,"text":"你可以了解到這個模式有一個風險"},{"start":13902.86,"end":13905.86,"text":"那這家公司他可以做這個生意"},{"start":13905.86,"end":13907.86,"text":"其實是因為配合政府的政策"},{"start":13907.86,"end":13908.86,"text":"才有辦法做這個生意"},{"start":13908.86,"end":13911.86,"text":"那政府當然有責任保障房東房客的權益"},{"start":13911.86,"end":13914.86,"text":"所以你們應該會針對這個個案"},{"start":13914.86,"end":13918.86,"text":"然後去找到這個商業模式的一個漏洞的修補"},{"start":13918.86,"end":13920.86,"text":"那大家什麼時候會提出來"},{"start":13920.86,"end":13921.86,"text":"我想我們會跟部裡面"},{"start":13921.86,"end":13924.86,"text":"跟業界一起來再精進"},{"start":13924.86,"end":13926.86,"text":"因為這裡面有各種角度的"},{"start":13926.86,"end":13928.86,"text":"你們大概預計什麼時候會"},{"start":13928.86,"end":13929.86,"text":"這個部分屬於政策的部分"},{"start":13929.86,"end":13931.86,"text":"現在都已經發生這樣的事情"},{"start":13931.86,"end":13934.86,"text":"然後我問你說你們有沒有警戒"},{"start":13934.86,"end":13936.86,"text":"然後我問你時針表你說不知道"},{"start":13936.86,"end":13939.86,"text":"因為大家覺得好像沒有很大意的意思"},{"start":13939.86,"end":13942.86,"text":"安定產業安定房東房客的方式"},{"start":13942.86,"end":13943.86,"text":"部長指示一下"},{"start":13943.86,"end":13944.86,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":13944.86,"end":13946.86,"text":"因為那個住租中心是行政法人"},{"start":13946.86,"end":13950.86,"text":"那您提到的說以後未必要怎麼防避的部分"},{"start":13950.86,"end":13953.86,"text":"就是我們現在的租賃的租屋服務業"},{"start":13953.86,"end":13956.86,"text":"這個部分我們會來做比較好的修正"},{"start":13956.86,"end":13959.86,"text":"我知道我知道大概什麼時間表"},{"start":13959.86,"end":13961.86,"text":"講一個大概的時間表"},{"start":13961.86,"end":13962.86,"text":"跟委員報告一下"},{"start":13962.86,"end":13964.86,"text":"因為我們現在也在收集國外的一些資料"},{"start":13964.86,"end":13965.86,"text":"跟一些相關的建議"},{"start":13965.86,"end":13969.86,"text":"因為有些國家是用專戶管理"},{"start":13969.86,"end":13971.86,"text":"就是押租金跟去用新托"},{"start":13971.86,"end":13973.86,"text":"我相信你們的過程會很認真"},{"start":13973.86,"end":13975.86,"text":"我直接問一個時間表"},{"start":13975.86,"end":13977.86,"text":"我相信這個過程你們都會做好不好"},{"start":13977.86,"end":13979.86,"text":"發生這麼大的事情"},{"start":13979.86,"end":13984.86,"text":"我會不覺得內政部或住租中心會完全不理"},{"start":13984.86,"end":13986.86,"text":"但是就講一個時間表"},{"start":13986.86,"end":13990.86,"text":"我們大概預計在三個月之內先找一些專家學者"},{"start":13990.86,"end":13992.86,"text":"三個月才要找專家學者"},{"start":13992.86,"end":13994.86,"text":"我以為三個月會有個結論出來"},{"start":13994.86,"end":13995.86,"text":"報告委員這樣子"},{"start":13995.86,"end":13997.86,"text":"我們不涉及修法的狀況之下"},{"start":13997.86,"end":13999.86,"text":"因為修法還是比較嚴重"},{"start":13999.86,"end":14000.86,"text":"不涉及修法的狀況之下"},{"start":14000.86,"end":14003.86,"text":"如果有授權的這個執法或規定的話"},{"start":14003.86,"end":14007.86,"text":"我們一個月會針對造基跟積極學所發生的狀況"},{"start":14007.86,"end":14008.86,"text":"把漏洞先補起來"},{"start":14008.86,"end":14009.86,"text":"謝謝部長"},{"start":14019.34,"end":14021.34,"text":"登記質詢委員除不在場者外"},{"start":14021.34,"end":14023.34,"text":"其餘均以質詢完畢巡大結束"},{"start":14023.34,"end":14025.34,"text":"委員高金素梅 傅芬琪 徐欣瑩"},{"start":14025.34,"end":14028.34,"text":"所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報"},{"start":14028.34,"end":14030.34,"text":"書面質詢和未及答復部分"},{"start":14030.34,"end":14033.34,"text":"請相關單位於一週內以書面答復並複製本會"},{"start":14033.34,"end":14036.34,"text":"本次議程處理完畢 現在上會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}