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":"中樹明中副部長"},{"start":1811.97,"end":1813.97,"text":"歡迎"},{"start":1813.97,"end":1815.97,"text":"還有其他我看"},{"start":1815.97,"end":1817.97,"text":"感到要一個一個介紹"},{"start":1817.54,"end":1819.54,"text":"我看介紹一下好"},{"start":1819.97,"end":1821.97,"text":"國防部很多耶"},{"start":1821.97,"end":1823.97,"text":"國防部你沒做一個介紹一下"},{"start":1823.97,"end":1825.97,"text":"因為好不容易當到中將少將"},{"start":1825.97,"end":1827.97,"text":"要介紹給大家聽一下"},{"start":1827.97,"end":1829.97,"text":"你看我都很好意的"},{"start":1829.97,"end":1831.97,"text":"來法律事務司司長吳奕勝吳司長"},{"start":1831.97,"end":1833.97,"text":"年輕中長"},{"start":1833.97,"end":1838.97,"text":"法律事務司軍法事務處處長吳淳賢吳處長"},{"start":1840.06,"end":1845.06,"text":"全民防衛動員署副署長林淳美執行長"},{"start":1846.63,"end":1851.63,"text":"總督察董督察長是副總督察長"},{"start":1851.63,"end":1855.63,"text":"陳雀之陳副總督察長"},{"start":1856.65,"end":1861.65,"text":"政治作戰局保防安全處處長林文傑林處長"},{"start":1863.15,"end":1871.15,"text":"戰略規劃師建軍規劃處處長翁宇恆翁處長"},{"start":1872.5,"end":1877.5,"text":"資源規劃師副司長吳信仙副司長"},{"start":1878.83,"end":1882.83,"text":"主計局局長謝其賢謝局長"},{"start":1882.83,"end":1884.83,"text":"你們叫做主計局"},{"start":1884.83,"end":1890.83,"text":"人事參謀次長事助理次長薛柏楊薛次長"},{"start":1892.63,"end":1897.63,"text":"情報參謀次長事助理次長吳天任助理次長"},{"start":1898.94,"end":1904.94,"text":"作戰局計劃參謀次長事助理次長彭國舟助理次長"},{"start":1904.94,"end":1909.94,"text":"通訊電子資訊參謀次長事助理次長林明華助理次長"},{"start":1911.23,"end":1916.23,"text":"訓練參謀次長事助理次長徐永祥助理次長"},{"start":1916.23,"end":1921.23,"text":"陸軍司令部副參謀長劉青勳副參謀長"},{"start":1923.04,"end":1929.04,"text":"陸軍海軍司令部參謀長朱惠民參謀長"},{"start":1930.18,"end":1936.18,"text":"空軍司令部副參謀長田宗頤副參謀長"},{"start":1937.47,"end":1943.47,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":1945.36,"end":1949.36,"text":"法務部檢察司張曉雯司長"},{"start":1949.36,"end":1952.36,"text":"還有內政部警政署"},{"start":1952.36,"end":1958.36,"text":"交通組副組長陳潮新副組長"},{"start":1959.07,"end":1964.07,"text":"行政警察局毒品查緝中心副大隊長鄭偉豪副大隊長"},{"start":1965.99,"end":1971.99,"text":"本次的會議我們今天聯席排定討論事項兩案"},{"start":1971.99,"end":1974.99,"text":"分別是繼續併案審查行政院函請審議的"},{"start":1974.99,"end":1978.99,"text":"陸海空軍刑法第24條條文的修正案等10案"},{"start":1978.99,"end":1981.99,"text":"第二個就是併案審查行政院函請審議的"},{"start":1981.99,"end":1985.99,"text":"陸海空軍刑法54條條文修正案等25案"},{"start":1985.99,"end":1987.99,"text":"由於第一到第四案"},{"start":1987.99,"end":1989.99,"text":"第一案裡面的第一到第四案"},{"start":1989.99,"end":1992.99,"text":"我們在115年的1月8號"},{"start":1992.99,"end":1996.99,"text":"本聯席會第四會期第一次會議審查決議"},{"start":1996.99,"end":1999.99,"text":"報告跟選擇完畢定期繼續審查"},{"start":1999.99,"end":2001.99,"text":"所以我們在我們今天本次會議的"},{"start":2001.99,"end":2003.99,"text":"繼續的一個審查"},{"start":2003.99,"end":2006.99,"text":"那我們先來進行委員的提案說明"},{"start":2006.99,"end":2010.99,"text":"每一位發言時間不要超過三分鐘"},{"start":2010.99,"end":2014.99,"text":"來請提案委員來進行提案說明"},{"start":2014.99,"end":2016.99,"text":"許宇禎委員"},{"start":2016.99,"end":2017.99,"text":"來賣不賣"},{"start":2017.99,"end":2019.99,"text":"要發給也可以賣也可以"},{"start":2021.74,"end":2023.74,"text":"好來來啊就跟他講一下"},{"start":2025.89,"end":2027.89,"text":"現在我們請您臨解畢"},{"start":2028.27,"end":2030.27,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":2030.27,"end":2035.27,"text":"有關依托彌質等新興毒品在社會上快速的氾濫"},{"start":2035.27,"end":2038.27,"text":"獨家的這個肇事事件也暴增"},{"start":2038.27,"end":2042.27,"text":"一次失控的獨家撞碎的就是一個原本幸福完整的家庭"},{"start":2042.27,"end":2045.27,"text":"當我們的社會上對獨家表達極度的憤怒"},{"start":2045.27,"end":2048.27,"text":"要求獨家零容忍的同時"},{"start":2048.27,"end":2053.27,"text":"我們更不能忽視我國將近20萬國軍的軍紀與表率"},{"start":2053.27,"end":2055.27,"text":"不容許有一點點的疏漏"},{"start":2056.74,"end":2060.74,"text":"之所以軍愛民民愛軍是因為我們的國軍肩負著保家衛國"},{"start":2060.74,"end":2062.74,"text":"維護國家安全的重責大任"},{"start":2062.74,"end":2065.74,"text":"然而軍人如果使用毒品後駕駛車輛"},{"start":2065.74,"end":2068.74,"text":"這不僅僅是盜路危險行為"},{"start":2068.74,"end":2073.74,"text":"更是對部隊紀律軍域以及國軍戰力的毀滅性打擊"},{"start":2073.74,"end":2076.74,"text":"因此本席特別今日凝聚"},{"start":2076.74,"end":2081.74,"text":"陸海空刑法第54條條文修正草案提出三大核心的修法重點"},{"start":2081.74,"end":2083.74,"text":"第一獨酒駕分流規範"},{"start":2083.74,"end":2085.74,"text":"維持現行的酒駕刑責"},{"start":2085.74,"end":2088.74,"text":"但大幅提高單純獨駕的罰則"},{"start":2088.74,"end":2090.74,"text":"從現行除三年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":2090.74,"end":2095.74,"text":"提高至除五年以下有期徒刑的病科罰金最高60萬元"},{"start":2095.74,"end":2099.74,"text":"第二獨家自食重懲納入死刑"},{"start":2099.74,"end":2104.74,"text":"本次修法增定獨駕制人於最重可處死刑"},{"start":2104.74,"end":2107.74,"text":"無期徒刑或十年以上的有期徒刑"},{"start":2107.74,"end":2109.74,"text":"最強烈的法律的嚇阻力"},{"start":2109.74,"end":2111.74,"text":"告知國人獨駕的後果"},{"start":2111.74,"end":2113.74,"text":"杜絕僥倖的心態"},{"start":2113.74,"end":2115.74,"text":"第三沒收犯罪工具"},{"start":2115.74,"end":2116.74,"text":"切斷再犯可能"},{"start":2116.74,"end":2121.74,"text":"為防止行為人再次利用車輛從事違法的駕駛"},{"start":2121.74,"end":2125.74,"text":"本次修法特別增定動力交通工具沒收條款"},{"start":2125.74,"end":2129.74,"text":"凡是獨酒駕者其駕駛之車輛"},{"start":2129.74,"end":2133.74,"text":"不論屬於行為人本人或是他人無正當理由提供者"},{"start":2133.74,"end":2134.74,"text":"一律沒收"},{"start":2134.74,"end":2136.74,"text":"無法沒收者追徵其駕駛"},{"start":2137.74,"end":2138.74,"text":"各位同仁"},{"start":2138.74,"end":2141.74,"text":"居然是守護國家最後的防線"},{"start":2141.74,"end":2143.74,"text":"對土品的態度必須是零容忍"},{"start":2143.74,"end":2145.74,"text":"人命不能重來"},{"start":2145.74,"end":2147.74,"text":"軍紀容不得折扣"},{"start":2147.74,"end":2149.74,"text":"我們不能等到下一個悲劇發生"},{"start":2149.74,"end":2151.74,"text":"才來後悔法律不夠堅固"},{"start":2151.74,"end":2155.74,"text":"所以懇請各位委員同仁全力支持本修正草案"},{"start":2155.74,"end":2159.74,"text":"共同捍衛國軍榮譽守護用戶人的生命安全"},{"start":2159.74,"end":2160.74,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":2161.87,"end":2164.87,"text":"謝謝許宇甄委員的提案說明"},{"start":2164.87,"end":2167.87,"text":"接下來請林楚英委員來做說明"},{"start":2176.89,"end":2177.89,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":2177.89,"end":2178.89,"text":"各位委員同仁"},{"start":2178.89,"end":2180.89,"text":"各位與會的官員"},{"start":2180.89,"end":2181.89,"text":"大家早安大家好"},{"start":2181.89,"end":2183.89,"text":"本席這一次所提出的"},{"start":2183.89,"end":2185.89,"text":"陸海空軍刑法第54條的修正案"},{"start":2185.89,"end":2188.89,"text":"我想其實是凝聚了非常大的社會共識"},{"start":2188.89,"end":2192.89,"text":"主要就是針對獨駕日益嚴重的公共安全風險"},{"start":2192.89,"end":2197.89,"text":"把現行軍刑法的規範補足的更加完整"},{"start":2197.89,"end":2203.89,"text":"今年土城清水派出所所長遭獨駕撞擊的死亡案件"},{"start":2203.89,"end":2205.89,"text":"其實再一次的讓社會看到了"},{"start":2205.89,"end":2209.89,"text":"試用毒品後的駕車絕對不是單純的交通違規"},{"start":2209.89,"end":2214.89,"text":"而是可能直接造成他人死亡的重大危險行為"},{"start":2214.89,"end":2221.89,"text":"但現行的處罰人必須符合罪責相關的原則"},{"start":2221.89,"end":2224.89,"text":"所以現行的陸海空軍刑法第54條"},{"start":2224.89,"end":2228.89,"text":"把酒駕與獨駕放在同一個規範"},{"start":2228.89,"end":2231.89,"text":"但是兩者的犯罪成因跟危害樣態"},{"start":2231.89,"end":2233.89,"text":"其實不完全相同"},{"start":2235.39,"end":2240.39,"text":"將酒駕、獨駕分別規範並提高獨駕刑責"},{"start":2240.39,"end":2243.39,"text":"單純的獨駕最高提到五年"},{"start":2243.39,"end":2251.39,"text":"而獨駕致人死亡、重傷以及十年內再犯酒駕或獨駕"},{"start":2251.39,"end":2253.39,"text":"又造成死亡重傷的情況"},{"start":2253.39,"end":2257.39,"text":"也會進一步提高刑責以及罰金"},{"start":2257.39,"end":2260.39,"text":"另外本席也新增了車輛沒入這樣的規定"},{"start":2260.39,"end":2264.39,"text":"這不只是酒駕、獨駕就一律沒收"},{"start":2264.39,"end":2266.39,"text":"而是基於比例原則"},{"start":2266.39,"end":2272.39,"text":"限縮在致人死亡、重傷以及再犯及造成死傷的重大事件"},{"start":2272.39,"end":2274.39,"text":"希望在加重處罰之外"},{"start":2274.39,"end":2278.39,"text":"也降低再次危害公共安全的風險"},{"start":2278.39,"end":2281.39,"text":"而司法院今天的書面報告當中也提醒了"},{"start":2281.39,"end":2283.39,"text":"就是第七條所稱的"},{"start":2283.39,"end":2286.39,"text":"無正當理由提供或取得的範圍"},{"start":2286.39,"end":2289.39,"text":"可以再進一步的明確化"},{"start":2290.73,"end":2294.73,"text":"這個部分本席認為可以在逐條審查的時候繼續討論"},{"start":2294.73,"end":2296.73,"text":"把法律界限寫得更清楚"},{"start":2296.73,"end":2297.73,"text":"避免"},{"start":2298.09,"end":2301.09,"text":"有人明知可能酒駕、獨駕"},{"start":2301.09,"end":2304.09,"text":"但是仍然任意的提供車輛"},{"start":2304.09,"end":2309.09,"text":"也避免無辜波及第三人受到不當的沒收"},{"start":2309.09,"end":2314.09,"text":"我們都知道現役軍人必須遵守一定的道路安全規範"},{"start":2314.09,"end":2318.09,"text":"但是本身涉及軍紀及部隊的安全"},{"start":2318.09,"end":2322.09,"text":"軍人施打毒品其實是已經影響了軍紀"},{"start":2322.09,"end":2324.09,"text":"如果在駕車上路"},{"start":2324.09,"end":2328.09,"text":"更是把風險直接帶給所有的用路人"},{"start":2328.09,"end":2331.09,"text":"所以這一次的修法目的非常明確"},{"start":2331.09,"end":2334.09,"text":"那就是該加重刑責的就加重"},{"start":2334.09,"end":2336.09,"text":"該劃分清楚的界限"},{"start":2336.09,"end":2337.09,"text":"我們也要劃分清楚"},{"start":2337.09,"end":2341.09,"text":"因此也希望這一次的修法當中"},{"start":2341.09,"end":2345.09,"text":"所有的院會同仁都能來支持本席的版本"},{"start":2345.09,"end":2348.09,"text":"而本席的版本其實也跟院會相同"},{"start":2348.09,"end":2352.09,"text":"我們也希望這種所謂的共識性的法案"},{"start":2352.09,"end":2355.09,"text":"能夠順利的經照修法通過"},{"start":2355.09,"end":2356.09,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":2358.82,"end":2360.82,"text":"好 謝謝林楚英委員"},{"start":2360.82,"end":2364.82,"text":"那接下來請王奕川委員來做提案說明"},{"start":2369.85,"end":2372.85,"text":"提案說明委員都已經有說明了"},{"start":2372.85,"end":2376.85,"text":"請機關代表報告發言時間3分鐘"},{"start":2380.89,"end":2382.89,"text":"來請副部長"},{"start":2386.61,"end":2388.61,"text":"主席各位委員先進大家好"},{"start":2389.09,"end":2392.09,"text":"今天大院司法及法制外交及國防委員會"},{"start":2392.09,"end":2396.09,"text":"聯席審查陸海空軍刑罰第24條"},{"start":2396.09,"end":2400.09,"text":"第54條及第54條之一修正草案"},{"start":2400.6,"end":2402.6,"text":"本人亦要列席深感榮幸"},{"start":2402.6,"end":2406.6,"text":"並對各位委員長期關懷國防事務表達誠摯的敬意"},{"start":2407.64,"end":2410.64,"text":"本次修正陸海空軍刑罰第24條"},{"start":2410.88,"end":2413.88,"text":"主要是鑒於現役軍人本應課金職責"},{"start":2413.88,"end":2416.88,"text":"並有確保國家安全的忠誠義務"},{"start":2417.61,"end":2422.61,"text":"然而近年屢次發生現役軍人有對敵人為效忠宣示的行為"},{"start":2423.57,"end":2430.57,"text":"本次修正定以言語、舉動等方式對敵人為效忠表示的犯罪類型與行責"},{"start":2430.57,"end":2434.57,"text":"以及加重處罰軍人不盡職責而降低的行為"},{"start":2434.57,"end":2437.57,"text":"並增加其餘被犯及陰謀犯的處罰"},{"start":2437.57,"end":2440.57,"text":"以有效確保國家安全及軍事利益"},{"start":2441.52,"end":2446.52,"text":"另鑒於獨家行為日益氾濫造成無辜民眾、傷亡及家庭的破碎"},{"start":2446.52,"end":2448.52,"text":"為維護未擁入人的安全"},{"start":2449.69,"end":2453.69,"text":"保障人民生命財產以及鞏固部隊軍紀"},{"start":2453.69,"end":2455.69,"text":"為全面防範此等行為"},{"start":2455.69,"end":2460.69,"text":"陸海空軍刑罰第54條、刑罰第185條之三"},{"start":2460.69,"end":2462.69,"text":"不能安全駕駛罪"},{"start":2462.69,"end":2465.69,"text":"有同步提高刑罰與修正之必要"},{"start":2465.69,"end":2469.69,"text":"您提出陸海空軍刑罰第54條修正草案"},{"start":2469.69,"end":2473.69,"text":"有案法案的說明皆需由法律事務室司長"},{"start":2473.69,"end":2475.69,"text":"向各位委員做具體的報告"},{"start":2475.69,"end":2477.69,"text":"並請大院各位委員給予支持"},{"start":2484.25,"end":2486.25,"text":"主席、各位委員先進"},{"start":2488.52,"end":2493.52,"text":"軍人依憲法第138條及國防法第5條規定對國家有忠誠的義務"},{"start":2494.75,"end":2499.75,"text":"然近年有發現現役軍人對敵人有宣誓效忠之行為"},{"start":2499.75,"end":2501.75,"text":"為了嚇止和嚴懲此類行為"},{"start":2501.75,"end":2503.75,"text":"大院在今年的1月8日"},{"start":2503.75,"end":2509.75,"text":"就行政院及各位委員提出的陸海空軍刑罰第24條修正草案"},{"start":2509.75,"end":2512.75,"text":"已經進行了巡達並於今日繼續審查"},{"start":2512.75,"end":2515.75,"text":"那另外因獨駕行為日益氾濫"},{"start":2515.75,"end":2518.75,"text":"那本部與法務部分別擬具了"},{"start":2518.75,"end":2521.75,"text":"陸海空軍刑罰第54條修正草案"},{"start":2521.75,"end":2524.75,"text":"及刑罰第185條之3修正草案"},{"start":2524.75,"end":2526.75,"text":"也含請大院審議"},{"start":2526.75,"end":2535.75,"text":"那以下分別就行政院及各委員提案之陸海空軍刑罰第24條第54條及第54條之一進行說明"},{"start":2535.75,"end":2539.75,"text":"1.陸海空軍刑罰第24條委員提案部分"},{"start":2540.34,"end":2549.34,"text":"本次併案審查既有李坤誠、陳樹月、郭育晴、河新淳、陳冠廷等委員提出之6案"},{"start":2550.11,"end":2552.11,"text":"本部的意見"},{"start":2564.61,"end":2566.61,"text":"略有不同"},{"start":2566.61,"end":2570.61,"text":"建議審酌罪行均衡原則及法治用語之一致性"},{"start":2570.61,"end":2572.61,"text":"以行政院版本通過"},{"start":2573.25,"end":2578.25,"text":"令與陳冠廷等17名委員提案於第5項增列"},{"start":2578.25,"end":2582.25,"text":"足以申軍事上之不利益之構成要件"},{"start":2582.25,"end":2587.25,"text":"因與司法院於115年1月8日聯席會議之書面意見相同"},{"start":2587.25,"end":2589.25,"text":"本部敬表尊重"},{"start":2589.87,"end":2593.87,"text":"2.陸海空軍刑罰第54條行政院版本修正草案"},{"start":2595.76,"end":2597.76,"text":"在酒駕與獨駕分項規範"},{"start":2597.76,"end":2601.76,"text":"考量獨駕行為與酒駕行為本質惡害性不同"},{"start":2602.61,"end":2605.61,"text":"就有就行度為差異性規範之必要"},{"start":2605.61,"end":2610.61,"text":"原將獨駕與酒駕分別規範以符合罪責相當"},{"start":2610.61,"end":2613.61,"text":"在加重現役軍人獨駕法定刑之部分"},{"start":2613.61,"end":2617.61,"text":"現役軍人獨駕之法定刑至3年以上以下有期徒刑"},{"start":2617.61,"end":2622.61,"text":"得併科新台幣40萬元以下罰金加重5年以下"},{"start":2622.61,"end":2624.61,"text":"得併科60萬以下的罰金"},{"start":2624.61,"end":2628.61,"text":"自人與死者之法定刑至3年以上10年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":2628.61,"end":2632.61,"text":"自人與死者之法定刑至5年以上10年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":2632.61,"end":2634.61,"text":"得併科220萬元以下的罰金"},{"start":2634.61,"end":2637.61,"text":"也加重到5年以上12年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":2637.61,"end":2639.61,"text":"併科320萬元以下罰金"},{"start":2639.61,"end":2642.61,"text":"自受傷者自1年以上7年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":2642.61,"end":2644.61,"text":"得併科120萬元以下罰金"},{"start":2644.61,"end":2647.61,"text":"加重為3年以上10年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":2647.61,"end":2650.61,"text":"併科220萬元以下罰金"},{"start":2650.61,"end":2654.61,"text":"10年內再犯獨駕自人與死之法定刑"},{"start":2654.61,"end":2656.61,"text":"自無期徒刑5年以上有期徒刑"},{"start":2656.61,"end":2659.61,"text":"加重為無期徒刑或7年以上有期徒刑"},{"start":2661.02,"end":2663.02,"text":"併科420萬元以下罰金"},{"start":2663.02,"end":2667.02,"text":"自重傷者之法定刑至3年以上或10年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":2667.02,"end":2669.02,"text":"得併科220萬元以下罰金"},{"start":2669.02,"end":2671.02,"text":"加重是5年以上10年以下"},{"start":2671.02,"end":2673.02,"text":"併科320萬元以下罰金"},{"start":2673.02,"end":2676.02,"text":"然後也增訂了異物沒收之規定"},{"start":2676.52,"end":2678.52,"text":"那在委員提案的部分"},{"start":2678.52,"end":2684.52,"text":"大院委員林淑芬、郭玉琴、林倩琪、林楚英、羅美玲、郭培瑜"},{"start":2684.52,"end":2693.52,"text":"吳麗華、徐富奎、林怡瑾、羅庭偉、吳佩奕、賴慧元、范雲等委員提出13案"},{"start":2693.52,"end":2695.52,"text":"提案內容與行政員版本相同"},{"start":2695.52,"end":2697.52,"text":"本部競表尊重"},{"start":2697.52,"end":2702.52,"text":"那令黃秀芳、王藝川、羅志強、李彥秀、許宇貞、萬美玲"},{"start":2702.52,"end":2707.52,"text":"張鴻祿、何新淳、徐偉祥、徐曉欣、葉元之等委員提出11案"},{"start":2708.27,"end":2713.27,"text":"均肯定本部提高獨立法定刑與增訂異物沒收之政策"},{"start":2713.27,"end":2716.27,"text":"維修法治體例具體提高之法定刑"},{"start":2716.27,"end":2718.27,"text":"在犯之期間或沒收之範圍"},{"start":2718.27,"end":2721.27,"text":"有不同於行政院版本的提案"},{"start":2721.8,"end":2724.8,"text":"那審酌入海公軍刑法刑度之修正"},{"start":2724.8,"end":2727.8,"text":"應兼顧本身與刑法刑度及具外"},{"start":2727.8,"end":2732.8,"text":"本修正草案內容亦應與刑法第185條之三一致"},{"start":2732.8,"end":2737.8,"text":"為符合罪行恆平信及法治體例建議以行政院版本通過"},{"start":2738.83,"end":2739.83,"text":"見"},{"start":2740.58,"end":2746.58,"text":"為補強軍人違反效忠國家依依法律的規範及嚇止軍人獨駕的行為"},{"start":2746.89,"end":2749.89,"text":"感謝委員所提案的修正草案"},{"start":2749.89,"end":2751.89,"text":"敬請各位委員先進給予支持"},{"start":2751.89,"end":2752.89,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":2755.89,"end":2759.89,"text":"好其餘提出數名報告機關有沒有口頭補充"},{"start":2760.11,"end":2768.11,"text":"沒有的話機關代表就報告完畢相關數名內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄"},{"start":2768.11,"end":2771.11,"text":"那現在我們來進行詢答"},{"start":2771.11,"end":2781.11,"text":"那本聯席會委員的詢答時間5分鐘必要使得延長2分鐘"},{"start":2781.11,"end":2783.11,"text":"6分鐘6加2"},{"start":2783.11,"end":2787.11,"text":"非本委員會詢答細文件就不再延長了"},{"start":2787.11,"end":2789.11,"text":"因為今天是聯席"},{"start":2789.11,"end":2792.11,"text":"那上午10點半截止發言登記"},{"start":2792.11,"end":2797.11,"text":"現在請登記第一位王奕川委員來做詢答"},{"start":2799.66,"end":2802.66,"text":"請登記第二位王奕川委員來做詢答"},{"start":2802.66,"end":2805.66,"text":"現在請登記第三位王奕川委員來做詢答"},{"start":2805.66,"end":2808.66,"text":"現在請登記第四位王奕川委員來做詢答"},{"start":2808.66,"end":2811.66,"text":"現在請登記第四位王奕川委員來做詢答"},{"start":2811.66,"end":2814.66,"text":"現在請登記第四位王奕川委員來做詢答"},{"start":2814.66,"end":2817.66,"text":"現在請登記第四位王奕川委員來做詢答"},{"start":2817.66,"end":2820.66,"text":"現在請登記第四位王奕川委員來做詢答"},{"start":2820.66,"end":2823.66,"text":"現在請登記第四位王奕川委員來做詢答"},{"start":2823.66,"end":2826.66,"text":"現在請登記第四位王奕川委員來做詢答"},{"start":2803.53,"end":2806.53,"text":"不能夠了,四分鐘而已,時間到了,不要再說了,笑掉了"},{"start":2808.4,"end":2809.4,"text":"沒有"},{"start":2812.94,"end":2813.94,"text":"KCBC"},{"start":2814.33,"end":2816.33,"text":"本會給他聯席"},{"start":2816.33,"end":2817.33,"text":"這領六加二"},{"start":2817.33,"end":2819.33,"text":"好,謝謝主席"},{"start":2819.33,"end":2822.33,"text":"我們請國安部交法務部好不好"},{"start":2822.33,"end":2823.33,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":2824.37,"end":2828.37,"text":"來請國安部副部長還有法務部長、當事長"},{"start":2830.66,"end":2831.66,"text":"黃委員好"},{"start":2831.66,"end":2833.66,"text":"副部長請教一下"},{"start":2833.66,"end":2836.66,"text":"我們現在對這個軍人"},{"start":2836.66,"end":2839.66,"text":"效忠國家這套的這個修法來對付"},{"start":2839.66,"end":2842.66,"text":"類似說預備犯、陰謀犯"},{"start":2842.66,"end":2845.66,"text":"以不同的方式表達"},{"start":2845.66,"end":2847.66,"text":"看起來對國家不忠誠"},{"start":2847.66,"end":2850.66,"text":"去對敵國表達忠誠"},{"start":2850.66,"end":2851.66,"text":"這樣"},{"start":2851.99,"end":2855.99,"text":"現在這個修法的版本的這個文字"},{"start":2856.92,"end":2859.92,"text":"在未來國安部在宣導上"},{"start":2860.65,"end":2862.65,"text":"會不會遇到有爭議"},{"start":2862.65,"end":2864.65,"text":"還是說實際發生的時候"},{"start":2864.65,"end":2866.65,"text":"會不會遊走在那個邊緣"},{"start":2866.65,"end":2867.65,"text":"就是說"},{"start":2868.39,"end":2869.39,"text":"他只會想"},{"start":2870.18,"end":2874.18,"text":"一張紙一張筆就要寫了"},{"start":2874.18,"end":2876.18,"text":"要就要想就要寫了"},{"start":2876.44,"end":2878.44,"text":"那張就要放一張"},{"start":2879.31,"end":2881.31,"text":"你抓到的時候你什麼時候要做"},{"start":2882.42,"end":2884.42,"text":"沒有啦 我就想辦法"},{"start":2884.42,"end":2887.42,"text":"我的意思是說這一些東西"},{"start":2887.42,"end":2889.42,"text":"在修法的文字上"},{"start":2890.14,"end":2892.14,"text":"有沒有更精進"},{"start":2892.14,"end":2895.14,"text":"讓國軍可以更遵循的方式"},{"start":2896.35,"end":2897.35,"text":"跟委員做個說明"},{"start":2897.35,"end":2899.35,"text":"後續這個陸海公義刑法"},{"start":2899.35,"end":2902.35,"text":"第二次寮修正草案通過之後"},{"start":2902.35,"end":2904.35,"text":"我們會透過正法令的一個宣導"},{"start":2904.35,"end":2906.35,"text":"另外也透過舉官元帝"},{"start":2906.35,"end":2908.35,"text":"向全軍的官兵"},{"start":2908.35,"end":2910.35,"text":"做一個正令的一個宣導"},{"start":2910.35,"end":2912.35,"text":"讓所有的官士兵都知道"},{"start":2912.35,"end":2914.35,"text":"二次寮修正草案"},{"start":2914.35,"end":2916.35,"text":"他修正完的法案是"},{"start":2916.35,"end":2918.35,"text":"法令是怎麼樣"},{"start":2918.35,"end":2920.35,"text":"那第二個部分就是"},{"start":2920.35,"end":2921.35,"text":"每一個個案"},{"start":2921.35,"end":2925.35,"text":"他都要經過這個個人的一個主觀翻譯"},{"start":2925.35,"end":2928.35,"text":"那第二個部分是他有犯罪的事實"},{"start":2928.35,"end":2931.35,"text":"那第三個部分是由檢察官來做認定"},{"start":2932.48,"end":2934.48,"text":"那"},{"start":2933.41,"end":2937.41,"text":"有關這個軍人的這個違紀跟違法的部分不太一樣"},{"start":2937.41,"end":2941.41,"text":"那違法的部分以陸海空軍刑法來實施處分"},{"start":2941.41,"end":2943.41,"text":"那另外他違紀的部分呢"},{"start":2943.41,"end":2945.41,"text":"是按照陸海空軍懲罰法"},{"start":2945.41,"end":2948.41,"text":"來實施所有區分兩個部分來做處理"},{"start":2948.41,"end":2950.41,"text":"好 因為我是擔心議案"},{"start":2950.41,"end":2953.41,"text":"怕說實務上發生的時候"},{"start":2953.41,"end":2957.41,"text":"每個條件都要叫檢察官去認定"},{"start":2957.41,"end":2961.41,"text":"無到要不可能也有可能會文字獄"},{"start":2961.41,"end":2963.41,"text":"這就真難說"},{"start":2963.41,"end":2965.41,"text":"所以相關的立法過程"},{"start":2965.41,"end":2968.41,"text":"跟接下來立法完成之後的"},{"start":2968.41,"end":2971.41,"text":"這一些可能要更細緻一點"},{"start":2971.41,"end":2974.41,"text":"不然他就遊走在那個邊緣"},{"start":2974.41,"end":2975.41,"text":"到時候出事情說"},{"start":2975.41,"end":2977.41,"text":"哎呦你沒有寫得很清楚"},{"start":2977.41,"end":2979.41,"text":"我這樣做哪裡又錯了"},{"start":2979.41,"end":2980.41,"text":"類似這樣"},{"start":2980.41,"end":2981.41,"text":"第二"},{"start":2981.41,"end":2983.41,"text":"我請笑一下軍人"},{"start":2983.41,"end":2985.41,"text":"軍人現在如果吃毒"},{"start":2986.42,"end":2988.42,"text":"去給你們抓到職業軍人"},{"start":2988.42,"end":2991.42,"text":"吃毒去給你們抓到的下一步是怎樣"},{"start":2992.61,"end":2996.61,"text":"第一個部分是我們按照這個刑罰額度"},{"start":2996.61,"end":2999.61,"text":"以及原先的這個條例來實施處分"},{"start":2999.61,"end":3000.61,"text":"第二個部分"},{"start":3000.61,"end":3003.61,"text":"這個軍人辦圖基本上是以太處為主"},{"start":3006.18,"end":3008.18,"text":"太處"},{"start":3007.78,"end":3010.78,"text":"所以軍人獨家會再獨家嗎"},{"start":3011.63,"end":3013.63,"text":"基本上在他獨家的時候"},{"start":3013.63,"end":3017.63,"text":"他從此就已經辦了獨家的"},{"start":3017.63,"end":3020.63,"text":"基本上我們是會實施太處"},{"start":3020.63,"end":3022.63,"text":"不會讓他再有獨家的行為"},{"start":3022.63,"end":3025.63,"text":"所以說到刑罰裡面"},{"start":3025.63,"end":3028.63,"text":"關於軍人獨家再犯這事情"},{"start":3028.63,"end":3029.63,"text":"沒法行嗎"},{"start":3029.6,"end":3031.6,"text":"基本上是不會的"},{"start":3031.6,"end":3032.6,"text":"不會嗎"},{"start":3032.6,"end":3034.6,"text":"對因為獨家完就會實施太處的作用"},{"start":3034.6,"end":3036.6,"text":"所以如果說你刑罰裡面"},{"start":3036.6,"end":3039.6,"text":"如果要修這個獨家就是一刀而已"},{"start":3039.6,"end":3043.6,"text":"他也不會有再獨家的事情發生"},{"start":3043.6,"end":3045.6,"text":"這要不要確定"},{"start":3047.81,"end":3049.81,"text":"這個因為也有牽涉到疫情的問題"},{"start":3049.81,"end":3051.81,"text":"因為義務役他是沒有太處的問題"},{"start":3053.51,"end":3055.51,"text":"所以義務役我們基本上是"},{"start":3055.51,"end":3059.51,"text":"志願役的部分基本上都是以太處為主"},{"start":3059.51,"end":3061.51,"text":"那義務役的部分我們會"},{"start":3061.51,"end":3064.51,"text":"這一個也是按照陸海軍刑罰"},{"start":3064.51,"end":3066.51,"text":"但是他有基本的疫情要服"},{"start":3068.06,"end":3070.06,"text":"一刀獨家"},{"start":3071.28,"end":3073.28,"text":"去給他抓到 義務役"},{"start":3073.28,"end":3074.28,"text":"獨家去給他抓到"},{"start":3074.28,"end":3076.28,"text":"他到時候也去給他收起來"},{"start":3076.77,"end":3078.77,"text":"回來之後他還繼續跟你獨家"},{"start":3080.41,"end":3083.41,"text":"基本上我們會有行程並行的一個方式"},{"start":3083.41,"end":3086.41,"text":"也就是說他的刑事責任必須要負"},{"start":3086.41,"end":3090.41,"text":"但是行程並行我們也對他會實施"},{"start":3090.41,"end":3093.41,"text":"相關的一個類似禁足"},{"start":3093.41,"end":3097.41,"text":"或是一些這個緊閉的一些非犯來處分"},{"start":3097.41,"end":3100.41,"text":"這因為我們現在在修這個的時候"},{"start":3100.41,"end":3102.41,"text":"去當著罪犯嘛"},{"start":3102.41,"end":3104.41,"text":"我們在條文裡面有一個罪犯的事情"},{"start":3104.41,"end":3106.41,"text":"所以這些文字上"},{"start":3106.41,"end":3108.41,"text":"再考量看要怎麼"},{"start":3108.41,"end":3110.41,"text":"就是說你跟我說志願役交易"},{"start":3110.41,"end":3112.41,"text":"志願役就在太處"},{"start":3112.41,"end":3115.41,"text":"所以志願役沒有獨家罪犯"},{"start":3115.41,"end":3118.41,"text":"那志願役有九家罪犯的問題"},{"start":3119.7,"end":3121.7,"text":"因為九家的形態他各自不同"},{"start":3122.78,"end":3125.78,"text":"所以我們會依據他的各自形態的不同"},{"start":3125.78,"end":3128.78,"text":"基本上原先我們九家也是以太處為主"},{"start":3128.78,"end":3130.78,"text":"但是他太陽不同"},{"start":3130.78,"end":3132.78,"text":"所以有經過審議委員會之後"},{"start":3132.78,"end":3135.78,"text":"會有比較不一樣的一個判決"},{"start":3135.78,"end":3139.78,"text":"但是基本上也是不容許九家發生這件事情"},{"start":3139.78,"end":3142.78,"text":"好 那接下來我請教這個法務部"},{"start":3144.38,"end":3148.38,"text":"我請教一下我們現在很多委員的修法"},{"start":3148.38,"end":3151.38,"text":"就是這個獨家以後車輛沒入"},{"start":3151.38,"end":3154.38,"text":"或者獨家罪犯車輛沒入"},{"start":3154.38,"end":3155.38,"text":"對"},{"start":3155.38,"end":3158.38,"text":"當然委員希望這有時候是財產的問題"},{"start":3158.38,"end":3159.38,"text":"是"},{"start":3159.38,"end":3162.38,"text":"因為可能是開他現在獨家後"},{"start":3162.38,"end":3164.38,"text":"開他媽媽的車"},{"start":3164.38,"end":3166.38,"text":"還獨家"},{"start":3166.89,"end":3169.89,"text":"因為媽媽說我知道我兒子把我的車開出去"},{"start":3169.89,"end":3171.89,"text":"所以都放在那裡"},{"start":3171.89,"end":3172.89,"text":"車就開出去了"},{"start":3172.89,"end":3173.89,"text":"這樣也要幫我沒收"},{"start":3173.89,"end":3176.89,"text":"那是我兒子車是我"},{"start":3176.89,"end":3179.89,"text":"這件事情在法務部在討論這件事情的時候"},{"start":3179.89,"end":3182.89,"text":"你們有什麼樣的不同的看法"},{"start":3182.89,"end":3183.89,"text":"是 跟委員報告"},{"start":3183.89,"end":3186.89,"text":"那我們現在的草案主要是針對那個"},{"start":3186.89,"end":3189.89,"text":"獨家的這個家中結果犯"},{"start":3189.89,"end":3190.89,"text":"以及再犯的家中結果犯"},{"start":3190.89,"end":3193.89,"text":"就是避免說他的範圍過大"},{"start":3193.89,"end":3196.89,"text":"然後來限縮他可能沒收人民財產的"},{"start":3196.89,"end":3198.89,"text":"這樣子的一個情況"},{"start":3198.89,"end":3201.89,"text":"那主要是限於就是無正當理由交付"},{"start":3201.89,"end":3204.89,"text":"給這個獨家者或者是酒駕者來運用"},{"start":3204.89,"end":3206.89,"text":"然後犯了這個家中結果犯"},{"start":3206.89,"end":3209.89,"text":"或是再犯家中結果犯才有這個沒收的這個事"},{"start":3209.89,"end":3211.89,"text":"我跟你們說的"},{"start":3212.1,"end":3214.1,"text":"他就搜尋都靠在門口嘛"},{"start":3214.1,"end":3216.1,"text":"他們兒子出門就把他開出去"},{"start":3216.1,"end":3217.1,"text":"獨家"},{"start":3217.1,"end":3218.1,"text":"他媽媽也不知道"},{"start":3218.1,"end":3220.1,"text":"這算故意嗎"},{"start":3220.1,"end":3221.1,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":3221.1,"end":3224.1,"text":"因為是不是有無正當理由這件事情"},{"start":3224.1,"end":3227.1,"text":"到時候在那個法院的這個審判範圍"},{"start":3227.1,"end":3229.1,"text":"他會依照那個客觀的事實"},{"start":3229.1,"end":3232.1,"text":"還有一些相關的證據去做認定"},{"start":3232.1,"end":3234.1,"text":"聽起來就危險危險就是說"},{"start":3234.1,"end":3236.1,"text":"這個車主說我不知道"},{"start":3236.1,"end":3237.1,"text":"他就把我的車開出去"},{"start":3237.1,"end":3239.1,"text":"大家都這樣說就好了"},{"start":3239.1,"end":3241.1,"text":"這時候他媽媽的車沒收"},{"start":3241.1,"end":3244.1,"text":"鄰港他們爸的車也開出去"},{"start":3244.1,"end":3245.1,"text":"又獨家"},{"start":3245.1,"end":3247.1,"text":"他就已經都沒駕車了"},{"start":3247.1,"end":3249.1,"text":"現在車子沒駕車了"},{"start":3249.1,"end":3251.1,"text":"繼續在開車開太遠了"},{"start":3251.1,"end":3254.1,"text":"他沒在開駕車開太遠了"},{"start":3254.1,"end":3256.1,"text":"反正抓到車還沒沒收"},{"start":3256.1,"end":3258.1,"text":"爸爸媽媽出來的時候說"},{"start":3258.1,"end":3260.1,"text":"我才知道我兒子把車開出去"},{"start":3261.29,"end":3262.29,"text":"這個怎麼防範"},{"start":3263.25,"end":3264.25,"text":"跟委員報告就是說"},{"start":3264.25,"end":3266.25,"text":"我相信很多的這個財產所有權人"},{"start":3266.25,"end":3268.25,"text":"他都會有各式各樣的理由"},{"start":3268.25,"end":3269.25,"text":"然後來辯解說"},{"start":3269.25,"end":3272.25,"text":"他並不是無正當理由交付這件事情"},{"start":3272.25,"end":3275.25,"text":"那都是要由個案在證據上面"},{"start":3275.25,"end":3277.25,"text":"做一些相關的一些判斷"},{"start":3277.25,"end":3280.25,"text":"那現在我們法律之後如果修訂以後"},{"start":3280.25,"end":3283.25,"text":"那就會依照這個相關的法律"},{"start":3283.25,"end":3285.25,"text":"然後來做一個認定跟判斷"},{"start":3285.25,"end":3287.25,"text":"所以你也是因為說這個"},{"start":3287.25,"end":3289.25,"text":"再犯以後的那一台車"},{"start":3289.25,"end":3290.25,"text":"要不要沒收啊"},{"start":3290.25,"end":3292.25,"text":"還是要看個案是不是"},{"start":3292.25,"end":3293.25,"text":"是"},{"start":3294.03,"end":3295.03,"text":"你們現在還在工作是這樣子"},{"start":3295.8,"end":3297.8,"text":"對要依照那個個案上面的"},{"start":3297.8,"end":3299.8,"text":"相關的事實證據來做一個認定"},{"start":3299.8,"end":3301.8,"text":"我記我自己的"},{"start":3301.8,"end":3302.8,"text":"我一位朋友"},{"start":3302.8,"end":3304.8,"text":"因為他孩子"},{"start":3304.8,"end":3305.8,"text":"就酒駕"},{"start":3305.8,"end":3306.8,"text":"酒駕沒教人家"},{"start":3306.8,"end":3308.8,"text":"車子都丟了"},{"start":3308.8,"end":3309.8,"text":"現在開他媽媽的"},{"start":3309.8,"end":3311.8,"text":"奇怪你兒子今天怎麼開車來"},{"start":3312.69,"end":3313.69,"text":"他說就開我媽的"},{"start":3313.69,"end":3315.69,"text":"他不能開車開你的"},{"start":3315.69,"end":3316.69,"text":"他說沒關係"},{"start":3316.69,"end":3318.69,"text":"車子是我的到時候也不會去用車子"},{"start":3318.69,"end":3320.69,"text":"這聽起來就嚴重了"},{"start":3320.69,"end":3321.69,"text":"所以他繼續開"},{"start":3322.74,"end":3324.74,"text":"這個在實務上你們的了解"},{"start":3324.74,"end":3326.74,"text":"應該也會發生這種事"},{"start":3326.74,"end":3329.74,"text":"大家這種推脫支持一定很多"},{"start":3329.74,"end":3331.74,"text":"這什麼事情都要交代"},{"start":3331.74,"end":3333.74,"text":"請檢察官給我發官去判斷"},{"start":3333.74,"end":3336.74,"text":"這就看運氣運氣了"},{"start":3336.74,"end":3338.74,"text":"所以這個可能我們接下來"},{"start":3338.74,"end":3341.74,"text":"後面的這個修法討論的時候"},{"start":3341.74,"end":3344.74,"text":"請這個法務部再看一下"},{"start":3344.74,"end":3345.74,"text":"我知道大家很在乎"},{"start":3345.74,"end":3346.74,"text":"財產的問題"},{"start":3346.74,"end":3348.74,"text":"貿入財產的問題"},{"start":3348.74,"end":3350.74,"text":"但是如果要遏止這種"},{"start":3350.74,"end":3352.74,"text":"這種酒駕毒駕"},{"start":3352.74,"end":3354.74,"text":"他就已經沒教了"},{"start":3354.74,"end":3356.74,"text":"沒教開新聞情的很多"},{"start":3356.74,"end":3358.74,"text":"然後他還是繼續開車"},{"start":3358.74,"end":3360.74,"text":"還是繼續犯錯"},{"start":3360.74,"end":3362.74,"text":"那這一種怎麼樣來遏止他"},{"start":3362.74,"end":3364.74,"text":"我個人是認為"},{"start":3364.74,"end":3367.74,"text":"沒收財產才會痛"},{"start":3367.74,"end":3368.74,"text":"好以上"},{"start":3368.74,"end":3370.74,"text":"謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":3372.11,"end":3374.11,"text":"謝謝王一川委員"},{"start":3374.11,"end":3378.11,"text":"接下來請林楚英委員來做詢討"},{"start":3382.98,"end":3383.98,"text":"那邊是要入閣的"},{"start":3383.98,"end":3384.98,"text":"這邊是這時候的"},{"start":3390.51,"end":3391.51,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":3391.51,"end":3393.51,"text":"有請國防部跟法務部"},{"start":3393.51,"end":3396.51,"text":"請國防部副部長還有張司長"},{"start":3399.8,"end":3400.8,"text":"林委員好"},{"start":3400.8,"end":3402.8,"text":"兩位好"},{"start":3402.8,"end":3404.8,"text":"本席今天要詢問的是"},{"start":3404.8,"end":3406.8,"text":"雖然說我們都知道這個"},{"start":3406.8,"end":3407.8,"text":"不論是酒駕或毒駕"},{"start":3407.8,"end":3409.8,"text":"已經危害到國家安全"},{"start":3409.8,"end":3410.8,"text":"但是針對國家安全"},{"start":3410.8,"end":3413.8,"text":"我今天要拉高到一個更高的層次"},{"start":3413.8,"end":3414.8,"text":"來PTT"},{"start":3417.78,"end":3418.78,"text":"好了嗎"},{"start":3422.38,"end":3423.38,"text":"還在跑是不是"},{"start":3429.2,"end":3430.2,"text":"好不是這個"},{"start":3432.24,"end":3433.24,"text":"北戴河對"},{"start":3433.24,"end":3434.24,"text":"好"},{"start":3434.24,"end":3436.24,"text":"我想媒體已經報導了"},{"start":3436.24,"end":3438.24,"text":"就是中共開完北戴河會議之後"},{"start":3438.24,"end":3440.24,"text":"媒體提出了就是"},{"start":3440.24,"end":3443.24,"text":"今年跟台灣最有關的部分"},{"start":3443.24,"end":3445.24,"text":"就是中國現在竟然把台灣的"},{"start":3445.24,"end":3446.24,"text":"年底的選舉"},{"start":3446.24,"end":3449.24,"text":"當成了是自己對台工作的KPI"},{"start":3449.24,"end":3450.24,"text":"那麼其中呢"},{"start":3450.24,"end":3453.24,"text":"令人感到毛骨悚然的是對於"},{"start":3453.24,"end":3456.24,"text":"在台愛國力量要給予所謂"},{"start":3456.24,"end":3458.24,"text":"最大的支持"},{"start":3458.24,"end":3459.24,"text":"也就是說"},{"start":3459.24,"end":3461.24,"text":"如果接受中國的資源"},{"start":3461.24,"end":3463.24,"text":"或是中共的政治目標"},{"start":3463.24,"end":3466.24,"text":"甚至於協助中國影響台灣的選舉"},{"start":3466.24,"end":3469.24,"text":"我想這個所謂的愛國者"},{"start":3469.24,"end":3471.24,"text":"愛的可能不是中華民國"},{"start":3471.24,"end":3472.24,"text":"而是中華人民共和國"},{"start":3472.24,"end":3474.24,"text":"但是更恐怖的是"},{"start":3474.24,"end":3477.24,"text":"給愛國力量最大支持"},{"start":3477.24,"end":3479.24,"text":"過去我們以為的可能是"},{"start":3479.24,"end":3483.24,"text":"一筆錢會給某一位候選人"},{"start":3483.24,"end":3485.24,"text":"但是現在會發現恐怕"},{"start":3485.24,"end":3489.24,"text":"這個最大支持的方式千變萬化"},{"start":3489.24,"end":3491.24,"text":"如果說過去的藉險"},{"start":3491.24,"end":3493.24,"text":"是透過地下金流"},{"start":3493.24,"end":3495.24,"text":"或者是落地接待地下賭盤"},{"start":3495.24,"end":3497.24,"text":"來操控假民調等等"},{"start":3497.24,"end":3500.24,"text":"但是現在如果透過假帳號"},{"start":3500.24,"end":3504.24,"text":"網紅、LINE群組、境外公關公司"},{"start":3504.24,"end":3508.24,"text":"甚至於AI生存影片、聲音圖卡"},{"start":3508.24,"end":3510.24,"text":"那麼透過境外的公司"},{"start":3510.24,"end":3513.24,"text":"來影響台灣的選舉的狀況底下"},{"start":3513.24,"end":3515.24,"text":"我先請問一下法務部"},{"start":3515.24,"end":3518.24,"text":"對於這樣的境外手法"},{"start":3518.24,"end":3521.24,"text":"而不是給支持特定候選人"},{"start":3521.24,"end":3524.24,"text":"甚至於他不是要支持特定候選人"},{"start":3524.24,"end":3527.24,"text":"他只是攻擊現有的政府"},{"start":3527.24,"end":3529.24,"text":"那麼這樣的方式"},{"start":3529.24,"end":3532.24,"text":"在法務部依照現有的法規"},{"start":3532.24,"end":3534.24,"text":"以及你們的辦案手法"},{"start":3534.24,"end":3537.24,"text":"可以查得到這種所謂"},{"start":3537.24,"end":3539.24,"text":"給予愛國者最大的支持的"},{"start":3539.24,"end":3543.24,"text":"新型態境外的支持嗎"},{"start":3543.9,"end":3545.9,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":3545.9,"end":3547.9,"text":"如果針對這些境外的"},{"start":3547.9,"end":3550.9,"text":"有意攻擊政府的相關訊息"},{"start":3550.9,"end":3552.9,"text":"那如果涉及相關的犯罪的話"},{"start":3552.9,"end":3554.9,"text":"那檢察官就會來具以偵辦"},{"start":3554.9,"end":3557.9,"text":"那事實上我們對於境外的這些"},{"start":3557.9,"end":3559.9,"text":"不管是假訊息也好"},{"start":3559.9,"end":3562.9,"text":"或者是可能是危害政府的訊息"},{"start":3562.9,"end":3564.9,"text":"或者是危害國家安全的訊息也好"},{"start":3564.9,"end":3566.9,"text":"其實我們都有相關的機制在做"},{"start":3566.9,"end":3568.9,"text":"可是我要問的就是"},{"start":3568.9,"end":3571.9,"text":"假訊息是危害社會治安"},{"start":3571.9,"end":3573.9,"text":"其實危害社會治安的部分"},{"start":3573.9,"end":3575.9,"text":"我看到現在很多在野黨的委員"},{"start":3575.9,"end":3577.9,"text":"還把他說"},{"start":3577.9,"end":3579.9,"text":"這個是言論自由"},{"start":3579.9,"end":3580.9,"text":"如果兩邊要講"},{"start":3580.9,"end":3581.9,"text":"那可能還打不完"},{"start":3581.9,"end":3583.9,"text":"而且危害社會治安的罪行"},{"start":3583.9,"end":3585.9,"text":"我想法務部非常清楚"},{"start":3585.9,"end":3586.9,"text":"他的罪行有限"},{"start":3586.9,"end":3588.9,"text":"但是他現在不只是假訊息"},{"start":3588.9,"end":3589.9,"text":"危害社會治安"},{"start":3589.9,"end":3592.9,"text":"是介入台灣的選舉"},{"start":3592.9,"end":3595.9,"text":"而且現在北戴河會議直接就跟你講了"},{"start":3595.9,"end":3596.9,"text":"這是對台工作的KPI"},{"start":3596.9,"end":3599.9,"text":"而且直指2026的年底選舉"},{"start":3599.9,"end":3601.9,"text":"這還是所謂你口中的"},{"start":3601.9,"end":3603.9,"text":"維護社會治安嗎"},{"start":3603.9,"end":3607.9,"text":"還是這其實已經涉及到國安層級"},{"start":3607.9,"end":3608.9,"text":"是國安法"},{"start":3608.9,"end":3611.9,"text":"甚至於是已經直接介入台灣的選舉"},{"start":3611.9,"end":3614.9,"text":"這個跟你剛剛口頭上所說的"},{"start":3614.9,"end":3616.9,"text":"危害社會治安一樣嗎"},{"start":3617.85,"end":3619.85,"text":"是跟委員報告有關這個訊息"},{"start":3619.85,"end":3620.85,"text":"我現在要問的就是"},{"start":3620.85,"end":3623.85,"text":"如果有一筆錢來自於境外"},{"start":3623.85,"end":3626.85,"text":"他直接給境外的公關公司操作的是"},{"start":3627.99,"end":3629.99,"text":"假訊息之外"},{"start":3629.99,"end":3632.99,"text":"包括給網紅製作生為影片"},{"start":3632.99,"end":3633.99,"text":"AI影片"},{"start":3633.99,"end":3635.99,"text":"然後影響選舉"},{"start":3635.99,"end":3637.99,"text":"你認為這個只是所謂"},{"start":3637.99,"end":3640.99,"text":"危害治安的受委法嗎"},{"start":3640.99,"end":3642.99,"text":"如果這個行為"},{"start":3642.99,"end":3645.99,"text":"他已經是直接要介入選舉的這個部分的話"},{"start":3645.99,"end":3646.99,"text":"那可能有"},{"start":3646.99,"end":3649.99,"text":"會構成這個相關的反滲透法的規範"},{"start":3649.99,"end":3650.99,"text":"那最高檢察署"},{"start":3650.99,"end":3653.99,"text":"其實他們也已經成立了相關的這個"},{"start":3653.99,"end":3654.99,"text":"督導小組"},{"start":3654.99,"end":3657.99,"text":"各地檢也有成立這個選舉查查執行小組"},{"start":3657.99,"end":3659.99,"text":"其實都會強化相關機關的這個"},{"start":3659.99,"end":3661.99,"text":"跨機關的聯防網絡"},{"start":3661.99,"end":3665.99,"text":"尤其對於這個可能是申委的這個訊息的話"},{"start":3665.99,"end":3666.99,"text":"還有相關的見識量能"},{"start":3666.99,"end":3668.99,"text":"其實都已經有所準備"},{"start":3668.99,"end":3670.99,"text":"好本席在這裡提醒就是"},{"start":3670.99,"end":3673.99,"text":"既然有這樣的報導出來"},{"start":3673.99,"end":3675.99,"text":"那就表示說空穴不來風"},{"start":3675.99,"end":3676.99,"text":"而且事實上"},{"start":3676.99,"end":3679.99,"text":"我們現在就已經看到了非常多這樣的樣態"},{"start":3679.99,"end":3680.99,"text":"所以本席要提醒的是"},{"start":3680.99,"end":3682.99,"text":"當他直接介入選舉"},{"start":3682.99,"end":3684.99,"text":"或者是在影響選舉"},{"start":3684.99,"end":3687.99,"text":"甚至於透過台灣的民主"},{"start":3687.99,"end":3689.99,"text":"我們要知道中華人民共和國"},{"start":3689.99,"end":3690.99,"text":"就是中共是沒有選舉的"},{"start":3690.99,"end":3693.99,"text":"但是他現在是以民主的手段"},{"start":3693.99,"end":3694.99,"text":"來殘害台灣的民主的時候"},{"start":3694.99,"end":3697.99,"text":"那麼這整體圍到的是國家安全的部分"},{"start":3697.99,"end":3698.99,"text":"所以我要提醒"},{"start":3698.99,"end":3701.99,"text":"就是包括法務部等相關部會"},{"start":3701.99,"end":3703.99,"text":"在針對這一次年底選舉"},{"start":3703.99,"end":3704.99,"text":"必須要有更多的準備"},{"start":3704.99,"end":3706.99,"text":"尤其是因應AI新型態"},{"start":3706.99,"end":3709.99,"text":"以及其他的這種所謂竊選的方式"},{"start":3709.99,"end":3710.99,"text":"那麼最後一點時間"},{"start":3710.99,"end":3712.99,"text":"我要請問一下國防部就是"},{"start":3712.99,"end":3713.99,"text":"我們可以看得到"},{"start":3713.99,"end":3717.99,"text":"在這個所謂2026地方選舉的關鍵"},{"start":3717.99,"end":3719.99,"text":"是支持愛國的在地力量當中"},{"start":3719.99,"end":3720.99,"text":"他還特別提到"},{"start":3720.99,"end":3723.99,"text":"又用心理戰、法律戰"},{"start":3723.99,"end":3725.99,"text":"國際跟軍事的平面來影響"},{"start":3725.99,"end":3728.99,"text":"強化所謂的軍事治理"},{"start":3728.99,"end":3731.99,"text":"而且反對台灣增加軍事投資"},{"start":3731.99,"end":3734.99,"text":"跟擴大無人機的部署"},{"start":3734.99,"end":3736.99,"text":"這個非常明確的可以感受得到"},{"start":3736.99,"end":3739.99,"text":"他就是直指國防部而來"},{"start":3739.99,"end":3741.99,"text":"雖然我們今天的修法24條"},{"start":3741.99,"end":3746.99,"text":"是講到要強調對國家的認同跟效忠"},{"start":3746.99,"end":3747.99,"text":"但是在這個部分"},{"start":3747.99,"end":3749.99,"text":"我也要就教一下國防部"},{"start":3749.99,"end":3751.99,"text":"對於整體的"},{"start":3751.99,"end":3752.99,"text":"因為我們知道"},{"start":3752.99,"end":3755.99,"text":"以前面對國家的安全機密"},{"start":3755.99,"end":3756.99,"text":"國防部常常就是一句"},{"start":3756.99,"end":3759.99,"text":"這事設機密不可以對外公開"},{"start":3759.99,"end":3760.99,"text":"可是另外一方面"},{"start":3760.99,"end":3763.99,"text":"在透過網路媒體的操作的時候"},{"start":3763.99,"end":3764.99,"text":"錯假訊息"},{"start":3764.99,"end":3766.99,"text":"你們如何在第一時間"},{"start":3766.99,"end":3768.99,"text":"能夠快速的回應"},{"start":3768.99,"end":3770.99,"text":"尤其是在年底的時候"},{"start":3770.99,"end":3772.99,"text":"這種撼動軍心的做法"},{"start":3772.99,"end":3776.99,"text":"你們要如何有效的整合其他的部會"},{"start":3776.99,"end":3777.99,"text":"或者是你們自己"},{"start":3777.99,"end":3778.99,"text":"可以快速的來做回應"},{"start":3778.99,"end":3780.99,"text":"因為可以感受得到"},{"start":3780.99,"end":3783.99,"text":"其實全民支持增加國防預算"},{"start":3783.99,"end":3786.99,"text":"全民支持無人機產業"},{"start":3786.99,"end":3789.99,"text":"在台灣持續的壯大"},{"start":3789.99,"end":3791.99,"text":"然後加入飛鴻供應鏈"},{"start":3791.99,"end":3794.99,"text":"而無人機在現代的戰爭當中"},{"start":3794.99,"end":3796.99,"text":"對於台灣的重要性"},{"start":3796.99,"end":3798.99,"text":"已經有歐戰爭"},{"start":3798.99,"end":3800.99,"text":"等等的案例在前面"},{"start":3800.99,"end":3802.99,"text":"可是國防部如何在"},{"start":3802.99,"end":3804.99,"text":"面對選舉的過程當中"},{"start":3804.99,"end":3805.99,"text":"很多的選舉議題"},{"start":3805.99,"end":3807.99,"text":"會把這些統統洗掉"},{"start":3807.99,"end":3809.99,"text":"那麼在這個部分"},{"start":3809.99,"end":3810.99,"text":"國防部有沒有什麼"},{"start":3810.99,"end":3811.99,"text":"有效因應的方式"},{"start":3812.97,"end":3814.97,"text":"簡單跟委員回應就是說"},{"start":3814.97,"end":3816.97,"text":"第一個部分對於"},{"start":3816.97,"end":3818.97,"text":"有關錯假訊息的部分"},{"start":3818.97,"end":3821.97,"text":"國防部會立即用新聞稿"},{"start":3821.97,"end":3822.97,"text":"或者是用記者會的方式"},{"start":3822.97,"end":3824.97,"text":"來承經整個錯假訊息"},{"start":3824.97,"end":3826.97,"text":"他錯的地方給國人"},{"start":3826.97,"end":3828.97,"text":"一個非常正確的一個觀念"},{"start":3828.97,"end":3831.97,"text":"或者是正確的事實為何"},{"start":3831.97,"end":3832.97,"text":"那第二個部分"},{"start":3832.97,"end":3834.97,"text":"因為軍人他比較特殊"},{"start":3834.97,"end":3836.97,"text":"他要維護戰力"},{"start":3836.97,"end":3838.97,"text":"他也要事實保衛國家"},{"start":3838.97,"end":3840.97,"text":"所以我們對內部的一個"},{"start":3840.97,"end":3841.97,"text":"心理的一個鞏固"},{"start":3841.97,"end":3843.97,"text":"也會藉由各項宣導"},{"start":3843.97,"end":3847.97,"text":"以及層面的一個正式的方式"},{"start":3847.97,"end":3848.97,"text":"藉由舉官各種方式"},{"start":3848.97,"end":3850.97,"text":"來鞏固我們的心防"},{"start":3850.97,"end":3851.97,"text":"來確保這個軍人是"},{"start":3851.97,"end":3855.97,"text":"為效忠國家來進行他這一個"},{"start":3855.97,"end":3856.97,"text":"所有的武裝力量"},{"start":3856.97,"end":3858.97,"text":"所以很簡單跟委員講"},{"start":3858.97,"end":3859.97,"text":"有關錯假訊息的部分"},{"start":3859.97,"end":3862.97,"text":"我們立即來實施一個訊息"},{"start":3862.97,"end":3864.97,"text":"好 我覺得在就是"},{"start":3864.97,"end":3866.97,"text":"事實的揭露是非常重要的"},{"start":3866.97,"end":3867.97,"text":"我想我們在"},{"start":3867.97,"end":3868.97,"text":"國防外交委員會的時候"},{"start":3868.97,"end":3870.97,"text":"有國安局在的場合"},{"start":3870.97,"end":3871.97,"text":"我們都會提醒"},{"start":3871.97,"end":3873.97,"text":"就是國安局跟相關的"},{"start":3873.97,"end":3876.97,"text":"國安單位跟現在國防部"},{"start":3876.97,"end":3878.97,"text":"在事實的資訊揭露"},{"start":3878.97,"end":3881.97,"text":"又或者是新型態動搖軍心的"},{"start":3881.97,"end":3883.97,"text":"這樣的一個手法"},{"start":3883.97,"end":3886.97,"text":"其實必須在最短的時間之內"},{"start":3886.97,"end":3888.97,"text":"讓國人可以釐清"},{"start":3888.97,"end":3890.97,"text":"那麼我覺得這個也是"},{"start":3890.97,"end":3891.97,"text":"現在接下來我們面對"},{"start":3891.97,"end":3893.97,"text":"不論是國防預算的增加"},{"start":3893.97,"end":3894.97,"text":"特別預算"},{"start":3894.97,"end":3896.97,"text":"又或者是無人機採購"},{"start":3896.97,"end":3898.97,"text":"或者是無人機的發展當中"},{"start":3898.97,"end":3900.97,"text":"其實兩個是相提的"},{"start":3900.97,"end":3901.97,"text":"那我們也希望"},{"start":3901.97,"end":3903.97,"text":"在這一次的年底選舉當中"},{"start":3903.97,"end":3905.97,"text":"我們既然已經被提醒到"},{"start":3905.97,"end":3907.97,"text":"知道中國是要運用所謂"},{"start":3907.97,"end":3908.97,"text":"愛台力量"},{"start":3908.97,"end":3910.97,"text":"愛國力量"},{"start":3910.97,"end":3912.97,"text":"但是不愛台的這樣的力量"},{"start":3912.97,"end":3913.97,"text":"在介入選舉的時候"},{"start":3913.97,"end":3915.97,"text":"相關的單位都能夠"},{"start":3915.97,"end":3918.97,"text":"更高的警覺好嗎"},{"start":3918.97,"end":3919.97,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":3921.95,"end":3923.95,"text":"好謝謝林楚英委員"},{"start":3927.47,"end":3929.47,"text":"接下來我們請羅美齡委員"},{"start":3940.98,"end":3941.98,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":3941.98,"end":3943.98,"text":"有請國防部中副部長"},{"start":3943.98,"end":3945.98,"text":"好我們請國防部副部長"},{"start":3949.05,"end":3951.05,"text":"各位好"},{"start":3950.54,"end":3952.54,"text":"副部長好"},{"start":3952.53,"end":3954.53,"text":"無論是酒駕或者是毒駕"},{"start":3954.53,"end":3956.53,"text":"近年來確實是造成"},{"start":3956.53,"end":3958.53,"text":"許多家庭的這個破碎"},{"start":3958.53,"end":3960.53,"text":"尤其作為這個"},{"start":3960.53,"end":3961.53,"text":"宣布保家"},{"start":3961.53,"end":3963.53,"text":"衛國的軍人更是要防患"},{"start":3963.53,"end":3965.53,"text":"這一類的這個行為"},{"start":3965.53,"end":3968.53,"text":"那其實陸海空軍"},{"start":3968.53,"end":3970.53,"text":"刑法第54條"},{"start":3970.53,"end":3972.53,"text":"其實是歷經了108年"},{"start":3972.53,"end":3975.53,"text":"111年還有112年"},{"start":3975.53,"end":3977.53,"text":"多次的這個修正"},{"start":3977.53,"end":3979.53,"text":"那我們對這個酒駕"},{"start":3979.53,"end":3980.53,"text":"跟毒駕的規範"},{"start":3980.53,"end":3981.53,"text":"其實已經逐步從"},{"start":3981.53,"end":3983.53,"text":"同一危險駕駛架構"},{"start":3983.53,"end":3984.53,"text":"走向這個毒駕"},{"start":3984.53,"end":3985.53,"text":"獨立的這個規範"},{"start":3985.53,"end":3988.53,"text":"尤其112年12月的修法"},{"start":3988.53,"end":3991.53,"text":"首度我們建立了這個"},{"start":3991.53,"end":3994.53,"text":"獨家獨立的毒品濃度的這個標準"},{"start":3994.53,"end":3996.53,"text":"那法律對於毒駕的認定"},{"start":3996.53,"end":3998.53,"text":"已經不是單純的比照酒駕"},{"start":3998.53,"end":4000.53,"text":"而是建立具有這個"},{"start":4000.53,"end":4003.53,"text":"毒駕特殊性的這個構成"},{"start":4003.53,"end":4005.53,"text":"那如果是從數據上來看的話"},{"start":4005.53,"end":4007.53,"text":"確確實實我們也是看到就是說"},{"start":4007.53,"end":4010.53,"text":"從107年我們酒駕的部分"},{"start":4010.53,"end":4014.53,"text":"107年的每一年的這個"},{"start":4014.53,"end":4018.53,"text":"酒駕造勢的12700人"},{"start":4018.53,"end":4020.53,"text":"一直到114年"},{"start":4020.53,"end":4022.53,"text":"已經下降到8894人"},{"start":4022.53,"end":4024.53,"text":"也就是說這個酒駕的這個"},{"start":4024.53,"end":4028.53,"text":"導致史上的人數其實這幾年來"},{"start":4028.53,"end":4029.53,"text":"是下降了30%"},{"start":4029.53,"end":4032.53,"text":"所以列定這個研法"},{"start":4032.53,"end":4034.53,"text":"其實還是有效的"},{"start":4034.53,"end":4035.53,"text":"那毒駕的部分"},{"start":4035.53,"end":4037.53,"text":"從107年的49案"},{"start":4037.53,"end":4043.53,"text":"一直到這個114年上升到143案"},{"start":4043.53,"end":4045.53,"text":"那整個毒駕的導致史上人數"},{"start":4045.53,"end":4048.53,"text":"是增加了192%"},{"start":4048.53,"end":4050.53,"text":"那可是呢從人數上"},{"start":4050.53,"end":4051.53,"text":"才量體上來看的話"},{"start":4051.53,"end":4053.53,"text":"我們看到酒駕的這個造勢的這個"},{"start":4053.53,"end":4056.53,"text":"人數還是案件還是比較多的"},{"start":4056.53,"end":4058.53,"text":"所以不管是酒駕或毒駕"},{"start":4058.53,"end":4060.53,"text":"其實呢我們覺得說都有"},{"start":4060.53,"end":4062.53,"text":"加重這個刑法的重要性"},{"start":4062.53,"end":4064.53,"text":"所以本席對這次的這個修法"},{"start":4064.53,"end":4066.53,"text":"是予以這個支持"},{"start":4066.53,"end":4068.53,"text":"那另外本席其實今天呢"},{"start":4068.53,"end":4071.53,"text":"想要跟國防部來探討的"},{"start":4071.53,"end":4075.53,"text":"其實就是114年度審計部"},{"start":4075.53,"end":4078.53,"text":"他所提出來的這個查核審查報告"},{"start":4078.53,"end":4083.53,"text":"就是有關於這個基隆級艦"},{"start":4083.53,"end":4084.53,"text":"這個驅逐艦"},{"start":4084.53,"end":4087.53,"text":"他的這個部分的雷達"},{"start":4087.53,"end":4088.53,"text":"還有部分的零組件"},{"start":4088.53,"end":4091.53,"text":"他的這個庫除妥善艦"},{"start":4091.53,"end":4092.53,"text":"部組的問題呢"},{"start":4092.53,"end":4094.53,"text":"想要來請教國防部"},{"start":4094.53,"end":4099.530000000001,"text":"那尤其是他這個驅逐艦標二飛彈"},{"start":4099.530000000001,"end":4101.530000000001,"text":"系統跟部分的雷達艦呢"},{"start":4101.530000000001,"end":4104.530000000001,"text":"都出現了部分這個關鍵零組件呢"},{"start":4104.530000000001,"end":4107.530000000001,"text":"他庫存妥善艦部組的情況"},{"start":4107.530000000001,"end":4109.530000000001,"text":"那還有呢這雷達故障艦"},{"start":4109.530000000001,"end":4114.530000000001,"text":"從2015年到2018年交修到美方"},{"start":4114.530000000001,"end":4117.530000000001,"text":"到現在為止呢都還沒有完全修復"},{"start":4117.530000000001,"end":4119.530000000001,"text":"那另外呢標二飛彈部分零組件"},{"start":4119.53,"end":4123.53,"text":"在2024年2025年度向美方申請回修"},{"start":4123.53,"end":4125.53,"text":"可是到目前為止呢"},{"start":4125.53,"end":4127.53,"text":"都還沒有回運這個美方"},{"start":4127.53,"end":4129.53,"text":"所以我想請教國防部"},{"start":4129.53,"end":4132.53,"text":"到底這到底延宕的原因是什麼"},{"start":4132.53,"end":4134.53,"text":"後續我們要如何來處理"},{"start":4134.53,"end":4136.53,"text":"尤其是我想請教就是說"},{"start":4136.53,"end":4140.53,"text":"這個部分的這個雷達故障艦呢"},{"start":4140.53,"end":4142.53,"text":"最早是2015年2月"},{"start":4142.53,"end":4144.53,"text":"就已經送修到美國去了"},{"start":4144.53,"end":4146.53,"text":"可是到現在為止已經10年過去了"},{"start":4146.53,"end":4148.53,"text":"為什麼到現在呢都還沒有修復"},{"start":4148.53,"end":4150.53,"text":"而且還沒有回運過來"},{"start":4150.53,"end":4152.53,"text":"請問國防部請問部部長"},{"start":4152.53,"end":4155.53,"text":"我請那個海軍參謀長做一個詳細的說明"},{"start":4158.59,"end":4160.59,"text":"委員好我是海軍參謀長"},{"start":4160.59,"end":4162.59,"text":"有關委員的這個提問"},{"start":4162.59,"end":4164.59,"text":"我在這邊簡單的做一些報告"},{"start":4164.59,"end":4166.59,"text":"第一個標二飛彈"},{"start":4166.59,"end":4168.59,"text":"它基本上剛剛委員所提的"},{"start":4168.59,"end":4170.59,"text":"是所謂故障的問題"},{"start":4170.59,"end":4172.59,"text":"那我首先要報告的是"},{"start":4172.59,"end":4175.59,"text":"標準飛彈它目前整個的"},{"start":4176.91,"end":4179.91,"text":"戰備量跟庫儲量目前是充足的"},{"start":4179.91,"end":4182.91,"text":"剛剛委員所提的大概是故障的部分"},{"start":4182.91,"end":4185.91,"text":"那目前除了艦上的戰備量之外"},{"start":4185.91,"end":4187.91,"text":"我們的庫儲量也是充足的"},{"start":4187.91,"end":4190.91,"text":"那有關故障數沒有修回來"},{"start":4190.91,"end":4192.91,"text":"是因為標二飛彈在美方"},{"start":4192.91,"end":4194.91,"text":"其實它也是部分的阻斷"},{"start":4194.91,"end":4197.91,"text":"它也是屬於消失性的傷員"},{"start":4197.91,"end":4199.91,"text":"所以這個"},{"start":4200.52,"end":4201.52,"text":"部分的零件"},{"start":4201.52,"end":4204.52,"text":"那目前送回去確實是有些零件"},{"start":4204.52,"end":4206.52,"text":"它是沒有辦法回復的"},{"start":4206.52,"end":4209.52,"text":"但是我們這邊在國內也"},{"start":4209.52,"end":4210.52,"text":"有了一個替代的方式"},{"start":4210.52,"end":4213.52,"text":"其實我們也從106年開始"},{"start":4213.52,"end":4215.52,"text":"陸續有關相關的零組件"},{"start":4215.52,"end":4218.52,"text":"已經在尋求國內的廠商"},{"start":4218.52,"end":4220.52,"text":"來做一些這個試驗"},{"start":4220.52,"end":4223.52,"text":"還有做一些這個替代"},{"start":4223.52,"end":4225.52,"text":"那到目前為止"},{"start":4225.52,"end":4226.52,"text":"部分的零組件"},{"start":4226.52,"end":4229.52,"text":"在國內已經獲得相關的這個技術"},{"start":4229.52,"end":4231.52,"text":"我們可以來做一些這個"},{"start":4231.52,"end":4232.52,"text":"修復以上的報告"},{"start":4232.52,"end":4234.52,"text":"所以蔡總長的意思就是說"},{"start":4234.52,"end":4236.52,"text":"其實替代沒問題"},{"start":4236.52,"end":4238.52,"text":"我們的庫儲量還是夠的"},{"start":4238.52,"end":4241.52,"text":"可是如果是說這個零組件產生"},{"start":4241.52,"end":4244.52,"text":"這個損壞或是損壞的話"},{"start":4244.52,"end":4246.52,"text":"其實到目前為止"},{"start":4246.52,"end":4249.52,"text":"我們美方的部分是已經沒有辦法"},{"start":4249.52,"end":4251.52,"text":"替我們修復的意思嘛"},{"start":4251.52,"end":4254.52,"text":"所以我們試著現在國內要來做這個試驗"},{"start":4254.52,"end":4255.52,"text":"試驗的技術呢"},{"start":4255.52,"end":4256.52,"text":"我們有辦法"},{"start":4256.52,"end":4258.52,"text":"有辦法來做修復嗎"},{"start":4258.52,"end":4260.52,"text":"因為目前還是在試驗的階段嘛"},{"start":4260.52,"end":4262.52,"text":"那再來還有之前我們再送到"},{"start":4262.52,"end":4264.52,"text":"美國去做回修的"},{"start":4264.52,"end":4268.52,"text":"這些零組件"},{"start":4268.52,"end":4269.52,"text":"雷達案件"},{"start":4269.52,"end":4271.52,"text":"那到底這個部分"},{"start":4271.52,"end":4273.52,"text":"有沒有要再運回來台灣"},{"start":4273.52,"end":4276.52,"text":"由台灣自己本身來做這個研修"},{"start":4276.52,"end":4278.52,"text":"這部分的如何處理"},{"start":4278.52,"end":4279.52,"text":"各位報告"},{"start":4279.52,"end":4281.52,"text":"因為這飛彈類的"},{"start":4281.52,"end":4283.52,"text":"還有這個射控類的"},{"start":4283.52,"end":4286.52,"text":"部分它是陸陸續續我們送修"},{"start":4286.52,"end":4289.52,"text":"但是它是陸陸續續的回運"},{"start":4289.52,"end":4291.52,"text":"當然是送出去"},{"start":4291.52,"end":4293.52,"text":"它只要修復完畢它就會回來"},{"start":4293.52,"end":4295.52,"text":"但是它如果因為修復"},{"start":4295.52,"end":4296.52,"text":"沒有辦法修復的"},{"start":4296.52,"end":4297.52,"text":"那我們剛剛跟委員報告"},{"start":4297.52,"end":4299.52,"text":"我們在國內用一些替代方式"},{"start":4299.52,"end":4301.52,"text":"來做一些這個替代"},{"start":4301.52,"end":4303.52,"text":"可是你有些東西已經在美國十年了"},{"start":4303.52,"end":4304.52,"text":"那個有運回來了嗎"},{"start":4304.52,"end":4306.52,"text":"那要看部分的阻斷"},{"start":4306.52,"end":4307.52,"text":"有些阻斷確實是"},{"start":4307.52,"end":4309.52,"text":"因為它是屬於消失性的這個傷員"},{"start":4309.52,"end":4311.52,"text":"所以有些沒有辦法修復的話"},{"start":4311.52,"end":4312.52,"text":"我們也不打算再運回來"},{"start":4312.52,"end":4313.52,"text":"自作再做研修"},{"start":4313.52,"end":4314.52,"text":"對 我們的資訊還在跟美方"},{"start":4314.52,"end":4316.52,"text":"因為美方它還是"},{"start":4316.52,"end":4318.52,"text":"還是這個透過它的管道"},{"start":4318.52,"end":4320.52,"text":"透過這個那個替代的傷員"},{"start":4320.52,"end":4322.52,"text":"它來做一些修復的動作"},{"start":4322.52,"end":4324.52,"text":"這一段其實我們在各項的會議"},{"start":4324.52,"end":4326.52,"text":"跟每年我們都還在持續的管制"},{"start":4326.52,"end":4328.52,"text":"所以美國可能也有一些替代的傷員"},{"start":4328.52,"end":4330.52,"text":"可以幫我們協助來做修復的意思"},{"start":4330.52,"end":4333.52,"text":"因為它是停產的東西"},{"start":4333.52,"end":4334.52,"text":"已經停產了"},{"start":4334.52,"end":4336.52,"text":"它是屬於消失性的傷員"},{"start":4336.52,"end":4338.52,"text":"所以這個部分可能就很難處理"},{"start":4338.52,"end":4340.52,"text":"那我們國內以五國的這個科技"},{"start":4340.52,"end":4342.52,"text":"以我們的技術來講的話"},{"start":4342.52,"end":4344.52,"text":"有沒有辦法做後續的修復"},{"start":4344.52,"end":4347.52,"text":"因為你後面應該還是會有一些零組件"},{"start":4347.52,"end":4351.52,"text":"還是會有這個破損或是壞損的一個"},{"start":4351.52,"end":4352.52,"text":"雷達的這個案件"},{"start":4352.52,"end":4354.52,"text":"可能還是需要修復的部分嘛"},{"start":4354.52,"end":4356.52,"text":"對不對 我們現在目前"},{"start":4356.52,"end":4357.52,"text":"只能就是用替代"},{"start":4357.52,"end":4358.52,"text":"就是說我這個壞掉了"},{"start":4358.52,"end":4360.52,"text":"我裡面的庫存夠了"},{"start":4360.52,"end":4361.52,"text":"我來做一個替代"},{"start":4361.52,"end":4362.52,"text":"你只用替代嘛"},{"start":4362.52,"end":4364.52,"text":"對 修復的部分目前還是沒辦法"},{"start":4364.52,"end":4366.52,"text":"壞了就丟 壞了就丟"},{"start":4366.52,"end":4367.52,"text":"所以變成會是這樣子的狀況嗎"},{"start":4367.52,"end":4368.52,"text":"不過我們有報告不會"},{"start":4368.52,"end":4370.52,"text":"因為其實陸陸續續"},{"start":4370.52,"end":4373.52,"text":"我們還是會籌獲一些相關的組件回來"},{"start":4373.52,"end":4375.52,"text":"那我們在庫存的這個裝備裡面"},{"start":4375.52,"end":4380.52,"text":"其實我們可以用拆零補時的一些方式"},{"start":4380.52,"end":4382.52,"text":"來做一些局部的更替"},{"start":4382.52,"end":4384.52,"text":"那另外這部分的話"},{"start":4384.52,"end":4386.52,"text":"是屬於雷達關鍵零組件的部分嘛"},{"start":4386.52,"end":4389.52,"text":"那另外還有比爾飛彈的關鍵零組件"},{"start":4389.52,"end":4391.52,"text":"我們其實在2024年2025年"},{"start":4391.52,"end":4392.52,"text":"向美方申請要做回修"},{"start":4392.52,"end":4394.52,"text":"可是這部分的話"},{"start":4394.52,"end":4396.52,"text":"到目前都還沒有回運美國"},{"start":4396.52,"end":4399.52,"text":"所以這部分也是跟零組件這個傷員"},{"start":4399.52,"end":4400.52,"text":"傷員狀況是一樣的"},{"start":4400.52,"end":4402.52,"text":"是一樣的狀況就對了"},{"start":4402.52,"end":4403.52,"text":"所以這部分的話"},{"start":4403.52,"end":4406.52,"text":"沒有辦法送到美國去做回修"},{"start":4406.52,"end":4409.52,"text":"所以這部分我們也是要自己來做研修"},{"start":4409.52,"end":4411.52,"text":"好不好 跟委員報告確實"},{"start":4411.52,"end":4413.52,"text":"部分送回去的組件"},{"start":4413.52,"end":4415.52,"text":"我們透過各項的會議"},{"start":4415.52,"end":4417.52,"text":"來跟美方來持續來管控"},{"start":4417.52,"end":4419.52,"text":"那剩下的部分在國內同時"},{"start":4419.52,"end":4421.52,"text":"同時間在做試研制的部分"},{"start":4421.52,"end":4423.52,"text":"我們是同時間在做"},{"start":4423.52,"end":4424.52,"text":"但是它不能包含全部的東西"},{"start":4424.52,"end":4426.52,"text":"有些相關的料件"},{"start":4426.52,"end":4428.52,"text":"跟相關關鍵性的技術"},{"start":4428.52,"end":4430.52,"text":"這邊還是沒有辦法"},{"start":4430.52,"end":4431.52,"text":"沒有辦法突破的"},{"start":4431.52,"end":4434.52,"text":"但是相關的比較細部的一些"},{"start":4434.52,"end":4437.52,"text":"小的一些原件跟組件的部分"},{"start":4437.52,"end":4439.52,"text":"可以做一些這個研製的替代"},{"start":4439.52,"end":4440.52,"text":"OK 好"},{"start":4440.52,"end":4442.52,"text":"這個部分的話是因為"},{"start":4442.52,"end":4444.52,"text":"這個審計報告有提出來"},{"start":4444.52,"end":4445.52,"text":"所以我也希望就是說"},{"start":4445.52,"end":4447.52,"text":"國防部在這個部分"},{"start":4447.52,"end":4450.52,"text":"能夠的來做一個公開的說明"},{"start":4450.52,"end":4451.52,"text":"那當然時間的關係"},{"start":4451.52,"end":4453.52,"text":"其實我另外還有一個"},{"start":4453.52,"end":4456.52,"text":"MK46要升級MK54的這個問題"},{"start":4456.52,"end":4457.52,"text":"而且想要請教"},{"start":4457.52,"end":4459.52,"text":"就是延壽案的這個部分"},{"start":4459.52,"end":4461.52,"text":"那就簡單回覆一下"},{"start":4461.52,"end":4463.52,"text":"因為當初我們那個發家書裡面"},{"start":4463.52,"end":4464.52,"text":"是提到是"},{"start":4464.52,"end":4466.52,"text":"美方應該是要完整的"},{"start":4466.52,"end":4468.52,"text":"把這個延壽包交付給台灣"},{"start":4468.52,"end":4469.52,"text":"可是後續"},{"start":4469.52,"end":4471.52,"text":"按照這個審計報告"},{"start":4471.52,"end":4472.52,"text":"它是提到說"},{"start":4472.52,"end":4474.52,"text":"其實後來它是零零星星的給我們"},{"start":4474.52,"end":4476.52,"text":"所以這個升級"},{"start":4476.52,"end":4477.52,"text":"MK46的升級"},{"start":4477.52,"end":4479.52,"text":"一直都是不順利的"},{"start":4479.52,"end":4480.52,"text":"對不對"},{"start":4481.73,"end":4482.73,"text":"各位媒體報告"},{"start":4482.73,"end":4484.73,"text":"因為MK46這個"},{"start":4484.73,"end":4485.73,"text":"目前我們國家"},{"start":4485.73,"end":4487.73,"text":"目前現行的武器"},{"start":4487.73,"end":4489.73,"text":"是MK46"},{"start":4489.73,"end":4490.73,"text":"對"},{"start":4490.73,"end":4492.73,"text":"我們之前不是要來做一個"},{"start":4492.73,"end":4493.73,"text":"延壽嗎"},{"start":4493.73,"end":4495.73,"text":"對 因為MK46"},{"start":4495.73,"end":4497.73,"text":"這個武器在"},{"start":4497.73,"end":4499.73,"text":"其實在產線已經停產了"},{"start":4499.73,"end":4500.73,"text":"是"},{"start":4500.73,"end":4502.73,"text":"所以美方有建議希望"},{"start":4502.73,"end":4506.73,"text":"46雷能夠提升成為MK54雷"},{"start":4506.73,"end":4508.73,"text":"所以它有這個建議"},{"start":4508.73,"end":4510.73,"text":"但是這個套件包"},{"start":4510.73,"end":4512.73,"text":"延壽包還沒有到之前"},{"start":4512.73,"end":4515.73,"text":"其實我們國家整體的武器運作"},{"start":4515.73,"end":4516.73,"text":"這個MK46雷"},{"start":4516.73,"end":4518.73,"text":"其實它都是沒有問題的"},{"start":4519.61,"end":4521.61,"text":"所以說這個延壽包"},{"start":4521.61,"end":4522.61,"text":"後來它來"},{"start":4522.61,"end":4524.61,"text":"因為MK54的延壽包"},{"start":4524.61,"end":4525.61,"text":"它是到今年底"},{"start":4525.61,"end":4526.61,"text":"它會陸續的交建"},{"start":4526.61,"end":4527.61,"text":"到目前為止"},{"start":4527.61,"end":4529.61,"text":"它是陸陸續續交建"},{"start":4529.61,"end":4530.61,"text":"陸陸續續交建"},{"start":4530.61,"end":4531.61,"text":"是還沒有完全的"},{"start":4531.61,"end":4533.61,"text":"還是還沒有完全的回來"},{"start":4533.61,"end":4535.61,"text":"那會不會跟這個整計報告所提到"},{"start":4535.61,"end":4537.61,"text":"就是說當初這個發價書講的是"},{"start":4537.61,"end":4539.61,"text":"要整包來交付"},{"start":4539.61,"end":4541.61,"text":"不是零零陸續續交付"},{"start":4541.61,"end":4543.61,"text":"這是跟我們當初"},{"start":4543.61,"end":4545.61,"text":"在簽這個發價書的這個"},{"start":4545.61,"end":4547.61,"text":"內容是不一樣的是不是"},{"start":4547.61,"end":4548.61,"text":"不是"},{"start":4548.61,"end":4550.61,"text":"因為它是一個概念"},{"start":4550.61,"end":4551.61,"text":"一個延壽包裡面"},{"start":4551.61,"end":4554.61,"text":"它可能裡面的原件有幾千項"},{"start":4554.61,"end":4557.61,"text":"但是美方就它庫存的量"},{"start":4557.61,"end":4558.61,"text":"它有多少"},{"start":4558.61,"end":4559.61,"text":"它就先提供給我們"},{"start":4559.61,"end":4561.61,"text":"其實陸陸續續"},{"start":4561.61,"end":4562.61,"text":"其實已經都到了"},{"start":4562.61,"end":4563.61,"text":"只是說它是沒有到期的"},{"start":4563.61,"end":4564.61,"text":"這個是確實"},{"start":4564.61,"end":4565.61,"text":"因為它時間也還沒到"},{"start":4565.61,"end":4566.61,"text":"它時間也還沒到"},{"start":4566.61,"end":4568.61,"text":"其實目前使用上面"},{"start":4568.61,"end":4571.61,"text":"操作方面它是沒有問題的"},{"start":4571.61,"end":4572.61,"text":"在庫存沒有問題是"},{"start":4572.61,"end":4573.61,"text":"OK好謝謝"},{"start":4573.61,"end":4574.61,"text":"我在想說"},{"start":4574.61,"end":4576.61,"text":"因為看到這個整計報告"},{"start":4576.61,"end":4577.61,"text":"所以我想說"},{"start":4577.61,"end":4579.61,"text":"我應該讓國防部有機會在這裡"},{"start":4579.61,"end":4580.61,"text":"說明一下"},{"start":4580.61,"end":4581.61,"text":"跟國人交代一下"},{"start":4581.61,"end":4584.61,"text":"到底是怎麼樣的一個狀況"},{"start":4584.61,"end":4585.61,"text":"那我想說"},{"start":4585.61,"end":4586.61,"text":"現有的這個裝備的維保"},{"start":4586.61,"end":4588.61,"text":"和會來站立的這個銜接"},{"start":4588.61,"end":4590.61,"text":"其實我們都應該要來做"},{"start":4590.61,"end":4591.61,"text":"提早的這個規劃"},{"start":4591.61,"end":4592.61,"text":"OK好以上謝謝"},{"start":4594.72,"end":4596.72,"text":"好謝謝羅美齡委員"},{"start":4599.35,"end":4601.35,"text":"好接下來我們請牛許廷委員"},{"start":4606.28,"end":4607.28,"text":"謝謝主席國防部有請"},{"start":4607.99,"end":4608.99,"text":"好我們請國防部"},{"start":4612.44,"end":4613.44,"text":"各位好"},{"start":4613.44,"end":4614.44,"text":"副部長早安"},{"start":4614.44,"end":4616.44,"text":"這個根據警政署統計"},{"start":4616.44,"end":4617.44,"text":"這個全國獨家移送案件"},{"start":4617.44,"end":4620.44,"text":"113年2131件"},{"start":4620.44,"end":4624.44,"text":"114年這個8659件成長4倍"},{"start":4624.44,"end":4626.44,"text":"今年1到5月"},{"start":4626.44,"end":4627.44,"text":"現在今年8月"},{"start":4627.44,"end":4628.44,"text":"但統計數據1到5月"},{"start":4628.44,"end":4630.44,"text":"不到半年6730件"},{"start":4630.44,"end":4631.44,"text":"你如果算到今天"},{"start":4631.44,"end":4633.44,"text":"搞不好已經超過去年的總量"},{"start":4633.44,"end":4634.44,"text":"這個死亡的人數"},{"start":4634.44,"end":4635.44,"text":"也從11人到19人"},{"start":4635.44,"end":4637.44,"text":"到1到5月就17人"},{"start":4637.44,"end":4639.44,"text":"單月成長畢竟一倍"},{"start":4639.44,"end":4640.44,"text":"這個獨家的狀況非常嚴重"},{"start":4640.44,"end":4643.44,"text":"所以今天很多委員都提出了相關的案例"},{"start":4643.44,"end":4645.44,"text":"希望來加重相關的一個刑度"},{"start":4645.44,"end":4648.44,"text":"這個軍裡面的狀況當然難免"},{"start":4648.44,"end":4650.44,"text":"這個我們都非常支持軍人"},{"start":4650.44,"end":4652.44,"text":"但是我們都希望可以軍紀嚴明"},{"start":4652.44,"end":4653.44,"text":"大家認真作戰"},{"start":4653.44,"end":4655.44,"text":"但軍裡面最近也有些狀況"},{"start":4655.44,"end":4658.44,"text":"今年3月宜蘭一面現役軍人"},{"start":4658.44,"end":4660.44,"text":"這個飲酒三個小時之後直逸上路"},{"start":4660.44,"end":4663.44,"text":"酒精濃度每公升2.2毫克"},{"start":4663.44,"end":4665.44,"text":"這基本上是喝到已經完全"},{"start":4665.44,"end":4667.44,"text":"已經失去意識的一個狀態"},{"start":4668.44,"end":4671.44,"text":"近年最誇張的軍人酒駕的狀況"},{"start":4671.44,"end":4673.44,"text":"最後法院只判了有期徒刑5個月"},{"start":4673.44,"end":4674.44,"text":"可以一科罰金"},{"start":4674.44,"end":4677.44,"text":"這當然就引起社會上的一些討論跟爭議"},{"start":4677.44,"end":4680.44,"text":"另外最近陸軍步兵109旅"},{"start":4680.44,"end":4682.44,"text":"上四煙彈也入侵"},{"start":4682.44,"end":4687.44,"text":"甚至還有堅守自盜等等的狀況"},{"start":4687.44,"end":4688.44,"text":"所以不管是酒毒"},{"start":4688.44,"end":4691.44,"text":"如果影響了軍紀訓練"},{"start":4691.44,"end":4692.44,"text":"我想大家都是不能夠容忍的"},{"start":4692.44,"end":4694.44,"text":"因為這會影響人民大眾"},{"start":4694.44,"end":4697.44,"text":"人民大眾對於軍人的信心跟信賴"},{"start":4697.44,"end":4698.44,"text":"那我想請教一下"},{"start":4698.44,"end":4700.44,"text":"在這麼多委員大家都提案"},{"start":4700.44,"end":4703.44,"text":"其實不外乎就是要增加相關的一個刑度"},{"start":4703.44,"end":4705.44,"text":"那麼我看國防部的書面報告裡面"},{"start":4705.44,"end":4709.44,"text":"針對本院委員提出的修正版本"},{"start":4709.44,"end":4710.44,"text":"當然都盡表尊重嘛"},{"start":4710.44,"end":4712.44,"text":"哪一次不尊重對不對"},{"start":4712.44,"end":4715.44,"text":"但是都還是說還是希望以行政院的版本為主"},{"start":4715.44,"end":4717.44,"text":"行政院的獨駕致死的法定是"},{"start":4717.44,"end":4718.44,"text":"5年以上12年以下"},{"start":4718.44,"end":4721.44,"text":"併科罰金320萬元以下"},{"start":4721.44,"end":4724.44,"text":"那大部分在黨委員的版本都高一些"},{"start":4724.44,"end":4727.44,"text":"有到死刑無期徒刑10年以上"},{"start":4727.44,"end":4730.44,"text":"併科340萬元 併科600萬元等等"},{"start":4730.44,"end":4732.44,"text":"這個行政院版的刑度大概是比"},{"start":4732.44,"end":4734.44,"text":"大部分委員提案的版本還要來低"},{"start":4734.44,"end":4737.44,"text":"那國防部是用什麼樣的標準來判斷"},{"start":4737.44,"end":4739.44,"text":"行政院版因為符合罪責相當"},{"start":4739.44,"end":4740.44,"text":"所以要尊重"},{"start":4741.75,"end":4743.75,"text":"我請法律師施讓詳細回答"},{"start":4746.83,"end":4747.83,"text":"委員好"},{"start":4748.34,"end":4751.34,"text":"那有關於我們陸海公軍刑法第54條"},{"start":4751.34,"end":4754.34,"text":"跟刑法153條之3這個修正"},{"start":4754.34,"end":4756.34,"text":"那因為我們是"},{"start":4757.6,"end":4760.6,"text":"參考法務部他刑法185條之3"},{"start":4760.6,"end":4763.6,"text":"那我們只有在罰金刑的部分"},{"start":4763.6,"end":4766.6,"text":"比一般人民多10萬到20萬"},{"start":4766.6,"end":4767.6,"text":"那這個級距"},{"start":4767.6,"end":4770.6,"text":"那就是之前在有關9獨駕"},{"start":4770.6,"end":4772.6,"text":"之前在修法的時候"},{"start":4772.6,"end":4774.6,"text":"我們這級距就是已經就是這個樣子的"},{"start":4775.94,"end":4777.94,"text":"所以基本上配合法務部"},{"start":4777.94,"end":4779.94,"text":"都沒有再額外的一個提升"},{"start":4779.94,"end":4781.94,"text":"只有罰金稍微多一點"},{"start":4781.94,"end":4783.94,"text":"這個市長也好或者是副部長也好"},{"start":4783.94,"end":4785.94,"text":"覺得這樣子會符合社會大眾的期待嗎"},{"start":4785.94,"end":4787.94,"text":"這樣子的一個量刑的一個標準"},{"start":4790.39,"end":4792.39,"text":"因為簡單說整個刑法是"},{"start":4792.39,"end":4796.39,"text":"包含到我們有關國防部的軍人是刑程並行"},{"start":4796.39,"end":4799.39,"text":"那除了有關這個陸海公軍刑法第54條的修正"},{"start":4799.39,"end":4801.39,"text":"罰金稍微提高之外"},{"start":4801.39,"end":4805.39,"text":"另外有關太處的制度是一併來執行的"},{"start":4805.39,"end":4807.39,"text":"也就是說軍人假設獨駕的話"},{"start":4807.39,"end":4811.39,"text":"他就涉及到有關陸海公軍懲罰法裡面"},{"start":4811.39,"end":4813.39,"text":"有關太處的問題"},{"start":4813.39,"end":4814.39,"text":"當然就是該開除嘛"},{"start":4814.39,"end":4815.39,"text":"簡單來說就是這樣嘛"},{"start":4815.39,"end":4816.39,"text":"所以他也不只是"},{"start":4816.39,"end":4821.39,"text":"當然因為軍人他的身分跟這個軍具要求是比較特殊的"},{"start":4821.39,"end":4823.39,"text":"所以有關他的刑責部分"},{"start":4823.39,"end":4825.39,"text":"叫行政院的版本來提高他是必要的"},{"start":4825.39,"end":4828.39,"text":"那第二個部分是對於他的有關他的工作權"},{"start":4828.39,"end":4831.39,"text":"以及他對這一個考量他獨駕之後"},{"start":4831.39,"end":4834.39,"text":"對於部隊軍具的影響"},{"start":4834.39,"end":4837.39,"text":"所以也有刑程並行包含到太處的制度並行"},{"start":4837.39,"end":4844.39,"text":"所以認真來說他的刑責比外面的獨駕來說確實提高了很多"},{"start":4845.3,"end":4849.3,"text":"這個在你犯了相關的錯誤之後"},{"start":4849.3,"end":4851.3,"text":"在你的職涯上面會受什麼樣的懲罰"},{"start":4851.3,"end":4854.3,"text":"包含在社會上你會被社會性死亡等等"},{"start":4854.3,"end":4855.3,"text":"這是另外一件事"},{"start":4855.3,"end":4856.3,"text":"大家純粹就法論法"},{"start":4856.3,"end":4858.3,"text":"大家純粹站在軍紀嚴明的角度"},{"start":4858.3,"end":4860.3,"text":"大家本來就希望軍人"},{"start":4860.3,"end":4863.3,"text":"我們都一向支持軍人有更好的待遇"},{"start":4863.3,"end":4864.3,"text":"有更好的社會尊嚴"},{"start":4864.3,"end":4868.3,"text":"但他的前提條件當然是軍人做了特殊的犧牲"},{"start":4868.3,"end":4871.3,"text":"這樣的特殊的犧牲不只是自己的時間"},{"start":4871.3,"end":4875.3,"text":"那也包含了受到更嚴明的紀律的約束"},{"start":4875.3,"end":4877.3,"text":"這我想是大家社會上約定成屬"},{"start":4877.3,"end":4879.3,"text":"大家對於軍人的一個期待"},{"start":4879.3,"end":4882.3,"text":"這我希望國防部可以再著"},{"start":4882.3,"end":4884.3,"text":"就這事情好好思考一下"},{"start":4884.3,"end":4886.3,"text":"合理的讓刑度稍微增加"},{"start":4886.3,"end":4888.3,"text":"這跟剛剛講的並不衝突"},{"start":4888.3,"end":4889.3,"text":"該太處還是要太處"},{"start":4889.3,"end":4890.3,"text":"該罰金還是要罰金"},{"start":4890.3,"end":4893.3,"text":"但我覺得刑務讓他做出一些區隔是比較符合"},{"start":4893.3,"end":4895.3,"text":"我們大家做意見交換"},{"start":4895.3,"end":4897.3,"text":"其實是比較符合社會上期待的這樣一個做法"},{"start":4897.3,"end":4899.3,"text":"我剛剛為什麼要舉那幾個例子"},{"start":4899.3,"end":4902.3,"text":"包含這個現役軍人的酒精濃度2.2毫克"},{"start":4902.3,"end":4903.3,"text":"為什麼引發社會化人"},{"start":4903.3,"end":4905.3,"text":"當然你講因為他沒有造勢"},{"start":4905.3,"end":4906.3,"text":"所以最後大概判五個月"},{"start":4906.3,"end":4909.3,"text":"大家在法律量刑上面都會引起很大的爭議"},{"start":4909.3,"end":4911.3,"text":"因為大家覺得說你明明應該很嚴格的"},{"start":4911.3,"end":4912.3,"text":"但為什麼沒有做到這件事呢"},{"start":4912.3,"end":4915.3,"text":"然後就連帶去影響這樣社會的公信力"},{"start":4915.3,"end":4918.3,"text":"這些都是社會中真實存在的這樣一個聲音"},{"start":4918.3,"end":4921.3,"text":"所以如果獨家一個草案"},{"start":4921.3,"end":4923.3,"text":"最後沒有辦法做出有效的區隔的時候"},{"start":4923.3,"end":4925.3,"text":"難免社會上又要提出質疑"},{"start":4925.3,"end":4926.3,"text":"又要踏法"},{"start":4926.3,"end":4927.3,"text":"那我們社會民意代表"},{"start":4927.3,"end":4928.3,"text":"社會民意代表本來就要把這樣的意見"},{"start":4928.3,"end":4929.3,"text":"把它做來提出"},{"start":4929.3,"end":4932.3,"text":"這就是為什麼大部分在黨委員的版本"},{"start":4932.3,"end":4934.3,"text":"刑度量刑上面都比較重的"},{"start":4934.3,"end":4935.3,"text":"這樣子的一個原因"},{"start":4935.3,"end":4936.3,"text":"但沒有關係"},{"start":4936.3,"end":4937.3,"text":"因為今天是質詢的一個階段"},{"start":4937.3,"end":4939.3,"text":"這個馬上要進入正式審查"},{"start":4939.3,"end":4941.3,"text":"還會有一個討論的一個空間"},{"start":4941.3,"end":4943.3,"text":"那至少我們要國防部提供一下吧"},{"start":4943.3,"end":4945.3,"text":"就是這個最近三年"},{"start":4945.3,"end":4947.3,"text":"這個現役軍人如何設入"},{"start":4947.9,"end":4948.9,"text":"毒品危機案件"},{"start":4948.9,"end":4949.9,"text":"好不好"},{"start":4949.9,"end":4950.9,"text":"這我們要做一下參考"},{"start":4950.9,"end":4951.9,"text":"還有獨家移送法辦"},{"start":4951.9,"end":4953.9,"text":"相關的一個件數分別是多少"},{"start":4953.9,"end":4957.9,"text":"這至少請國防部做一下這個資料的一個調查"},{"start":4957.9,"end":4959.9,"text":"這未來大家在做案例的分析的時候"},{"start":4959.9,"end":4961.9,"text":"也更有方向"},{"start":4961.9,"end":4963.9,"text":"那大家在刑度討論的時候也會比較有基準"},{"start":4963.9,"end":4965.9,"text":"這件事總可以答應吧"},{"start":4966.06,"end":4969.06,"text":"所以我們會把這個毒品案件分析"},{"start":4969.06,"end":4971.06,"text":"以及案件的數量做一個檢討"},{"start":4971.06,"end":4972.06,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":4972.06,"end":4973.06,"text":"那我們請一下法務部"},{"start":4980.54,"end":4981.54,"text":"委員好"},{"start":4982,"end":4983,"text":"好 您好 這個"},{"start":4983,"end":4984,"text":"我想要請教一下"},{"start":4984,"end":4986,"text":"因為我剛剛除了這個酒駕案子"},{"start":4986,"end":4987,"text":"我還舉了另外一個例子"},{"start":4987,"end":4991,"text":"就是說109旅遊上司煙彈入侵部隊的一個狀況"},{"start":4991,"end":4993,"text":"那這個案子辦得怎麼樣"},{"start":4993,"end":4994,"text":"因為有監守制到等等的問題"},{"start":4994,"end":4996,"text":"其實算是重大危機事件"},{"start":4996,"end":4998,"text":"那我想尤其大家對於這個毒駕毒品案子"},{"start":4998,"end":4999,"text":"一向都非常的關注"},{"start":4999,"end":5001,"text":"也絕對不能夠容忍"},{"start":5001,"end":5002,"text":"所以我讓大家了解一下"},{"start":5002,"end":5004,"text":"這個我們法務部跟國防部之間"},{"start":5004,"end":5007,"text":"有沒有建立這個氣毒打擊毒品"},{"start":5007,"end":5010,"text":"相關的這樣子的一個情資的通報機制"},{"start":5010,"end":5013,"text":"具體來講這個查緝之間的這個配合的作為"},{"start":5013,"end":5014,"text":"大概是一些什麼"},{"start":5014,"end":5016,"text":"是不是請大家跟國人大眾說明一下"},{"start":5017.37,"end":5019.37,"text":"那個國防部的憲兵指揮部"},{"start":5019.37,"end":5021.37,"text":"其實就是屬於這個台高檢署"},{"start":5021.37,"end":5024.37,"text":"他們統合的六大企圖系統裡面的一個"},{"start":5024.37,"end":5026.37,"text":"就是工作團隊"},{"start":5026.37,"end":5028.37,"text":"那在這個團隊裡面"},{"start":5028.37,"end":5029.37,"text":"任何的一個單位"},{"start":5029.37,"end":5031.37,"text":"他有這個毒品的這個情資"},{"start":5031.37,"end":5035.37,"text":"他其實都可以通報到台高檢署的這個平台"},{"start":5035.37,"end":5038.37,"text":"然後大家來做一個情資的探討跟分享"},{"start":5038.37,"end":5039.37,"text":"以及專責的一個查緝"},{"start":5039.37,"end":5043.37,"text":"其實都有相關的一個聯繫管道跟合作機制"},{"start":5043.37,"end":5044.37,"text":"那以剛剛我提的這個案例"},{"start":5044.37,"end":5045.37,"text":"109旅這個案例"},{"start":5045.37,"end":5047.37,"text":"他的這是如何通報出來的"},{"start":5048.37,"end":5049.37,"text":"是內部"},{"start":5049.98,"end":5050.98,"text":"怎麼查到的"},{"start":5050.98,"end":5053.98,"text":"檢舉還是外面還是媒體報了才追查等等"},{"start":5053.98,"end":5054.98,"text":"樣態是什麼"},{"start":5054.98,"end":5055.98,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":5055.98,"end":5056.98,"text":"因為這個是屬於個案"},{"start":5056.98,"end":5058.98,"text":"那如果是在偵查中的話"},{"start":5058.98,"end":5060.98,"text":"就是屬於檢察署他們在偵辦"},{"start":5060.98,"end":5064.98,"text":"那法務部他因為我們不介入這個個案的了解"},{"start":5064.98,"end":5069.98,"text":"所以這邊沒有辦法跟委員報告這個詳細的這個狀況"},{"start":5069.98,"end":5070.98,"text":"是請委員見諒"},{"start":5070.98,"end":5073.98,"text":"這我們當然關心是制度上的一個設計"},{"start":5073.98,"end":5075.98,"text":"你剛剛講的是繼承的這樣子的一個機制設計"},{"start":5075.98,"end":5076.98,"text":"對"},{"start":5076.98,"end":5078.98,"text":"那麼因應最近這個毒品的這個狀況特別的嚴重"},{"start":5078.98,"end":5080.98,"text":"大家社會高度的一些關注"},{"start":5080.98,"end":5083.98,"text":"有沒有什麼額外的一些這個查緝的配合作為"},{"start":5083.98,"end":5086.98,"text":"這我要了解一下你們的合作機制"},{"start":5087.76,"end":5091.76,"text":"那因為最近當然大家很關心這個毒價的這個問題"},{"start":5091.76,"end":5099.76,"text":"所以台高檢署其實在最近也都就是有一些專案的查緝毒價的這個行動"},{"start":5099.76,"end":5103.76,"text":"那這些專案查緝行動其實目前也都還在持續當中"},{"start":5103.76,"end":5108.76,"text":"那另外也透過這個相關的這個檢驗量能的這個提升"},{"start":5108.76,"end":5111.76,"text":"然後可以來這個讓這個毒價行為"},{"start":5111.76,"end":5114.76,"text":"以及這個黑數能夠更快的這個去浮現"},{"start":5114.76,"end":5116.76,"text":"那充分的來防治毒價"},{"start":5116.76,"end":5120.76,"text":"那另外相關的是這個修法的進程其實也都在進行中"},{"start":5120.76,"end":5123.76,"text":"這個是政府共同全面來防治毒價的一個作為"},{"start":5123.76,"end":5124.76,"text":"好謝謝喔"},{"start":5124.76,"end":5126.76,"text":"這我剛剛有特別講為什麼要特別要調一下"},{"start":5126.76,"end":5132.76,"text":"最近這個國軍裡面打擊毒品的這各項的一個成果或者是一個狀況"},{"start":5132.76,"end":5134.76,"text":"之所以要說明的原因就是這樣子"},{"start":5134.76,"end":5138.76,"text":"因為我們也非常關心這個國軍跟法務部之間能不能有效的做一個跨部的這樣合作"},{"start":5138.76,"end":5143.76,"text":"去確保這個毒品不要在這個不要成為這個軍裡面的這個狀況"},{"start":5143.76,"end":5145.76,"text":"我們就希望軍人專心的保家衛國"},{"start":5145.76,"end":5149.76,"text":"維持這個高昂的士氣跟比較好的這個紀律的這樣一個品質"},{"start":5149.76,"end":5150.76,"text":"希望不然法務部也好啦"},{"start":5150.76,"end":5151.76,"text":"國防部也好"},{"start":5151.76,"end":5153.76,"text":"在這個部分要多上上心啦"},{"start":5153.76,"end":5154.76,"text":"大家一起加油辦理"},{"start":5154.76,"end":5156.76,"text":"那我們就等資料來我們再做進一步追蹤可以嗎"},{"start":5156.76,"end":5157.76,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":5157.76,"end":5158.76,"text":"謝謝辛苦了"},{"start":5159.66,"end":5161.66,"text":"好謝謝牛許廷委員"},{"start":5161.66,"end":5163.66,"text":"接下來我們請陳昭之委員"},{"start":5166.26,"end":5168.26,"text":"陳昭之委員"},{"start":5169.87,"end":5171.87,"text":"陳昭之委員"},{"start":5173.01,"end":5173.51,"text":"不在"},{"start":5173.51,"end":5174.01,"text":"好"},{"start":5174.01,"end":5176.01,"text":"那我們接下來請莊瑞雄委員"},{"start":5183.14,"end":5184.14,"text":"好謝謝主席"},{"start":5184.14,"end":5186.14,"text":"有請我們國防部副部長"},{"start":5186.14,"end":5188.14,"text":"副部長請"},{"start":5188.14,"end":5189.14,"text":"中副部長"},{"start":5189.99,"end":5192.99,"text":"部長有幾個議題來請教啦"},{"start":5192.99,"end":5197.99,"text":"去年這個漢光就41號演習期間"},{"start":5197.99,"end":5204.99,"text":"澎湖這個定海營區那個地方連續四個晚上遭到無人機嘛"},{"start":5204.99,"end":5209.99,"text":"無人機盤旋然後每次遭到二刀四架"},{"start":5209.99,"end":5211.99,"text":"軍方甚至去動用干擾槍"},{"start":5211.99,"end":5214.99,"text":"最後也沒有辦法有效去做驅離"},{"start":5214.99,"end":5216.99,"text":"那今年監察院在四月份的時候"},{"start":5216.99,"end":5225.99,"text":"那也指出國軍這個反無人機從裝備啊部署啊訓練到後勤的維保都還有改善的一個空間啊"},{"start":5225.99,"end":5227.99,"text":"當然都可以更精進啦"},{"start":5227.99,"end":5229.99,"text":"那今年的漢光40號演習裡面"},{"start":5229.99,"end":5232.99,"text":"我們擴大無人機的一個攻防"},{"start":5232.99,"end":5238.99,"text":"首度的去檢驗去驗證了新型無人機干擾的一個系統"},{"start":5238.99,"end":5239.99,"text":"所以我在這個地方直接來問啦"},{"start":5239.99,"end":5241.99,"text":"那今年漢光演習到目前為止"},{"start":5241.99,"end":5246.99,"text":"有沒有發現不明無人機入侵營區有這個狀況嗎"},{"start":5248.44,"end":5250.44,"text":"有沒有"},{"start":5250.44,"end":5251.44,"text":"跟去年來去年有啊"},{"start":5251.44,"end":5256.44,"text":"報告委員目前進行到現在為止是沒有發現有進入到營區"},{"start":5256.44,"end":5261.44,"text":"但是這個反無人機的演練的部分我們持續把它納進來"},{"start":5261.44,"end":5270.44,"text":"所以今年到現在這次漢光40號演習沒有發現像去年澎湖營區有無人機干擾營區的事件發生"},{"start":5270.44,"end":5273.44,"text":"那我想重點啊其實就是在講說"},{"start":5273.44,"end":5276.44,"text":"我們這次的新型的一個干擾系統裡面啊"},{"start":5276.44,"end":5278.44,"text":"有沒有辦法這次就有了嘛"},{"start":5278.44,"end":5281.44,"text":"有沒有辦法實際去反制"},{"start":5281.44,"end":5285.44,"text":"這次演習到現在你們的成效到底是怎樣"},{"start":5287.18,"end":5289.18,"text":"那你們有初步的了解"},{"start":5289.18,"end":5294.18,"text":"有關於無人機的反制的部分它主要區分成軟煞跟硬煞"},{"start":5294.18,"end":5301.18,"text":"那軟煞的部分是藉由我們徵收到我們利用這個電子反制的方式來做"},{"start":5301.18,"end":5302.18,"text":"那硬煞的部分"},{"start":5302.18,"end":5304.18,"text":"不管什麼方式我在問的就是說"},{"start":5304.18,"end":5308.18,"text":"有人無人機來了我們現在要反制要干擾"},{"start":5308.18,"end":5309.18,"text":"現在你們驗證了"},{"start":5309.18,"end":5312.18,"text":"現在我們整個國軍裡面總是應該有了吧"},{"start":5312.18,"end":5314.18,"text":"無人機我們講了那麼久啦"},{"start":5314.18,"end":5316.18,"text":"無人機總不是只有去攻擊別人啦"},{"start":5316.18,"end":5318.18,"text":"我們也有反制啊干擾啊"},{"start":5318.18,"end":5320.18,"text":"那我們現在這個部分驗證起來"},{"start":5320.18,"end":5322.18,"text":"你覺得成效怎麼樣"},{"start":5322.18,"end":5326.18,"text":"我們具有某種一定程度的反制能力"},{"start":5326.18,"end":5329.18,"text":"但是因為無人機的技術不斷的在精進"},{"start":5329.18,"end":5332.18,"text":"所以說我們這個部分我們當然要精進啊"},{"start":5332.18,"end":5334.18,"text":"我的意思是說我們驗證到現在"},{"start":5334.18,"end":5335.18,"text":"我們總是有"},{"start":5336.95,"end":5339.95,"text":"有一些反干擾反制他"},{"start":5339.95,"end":5342.95,"text":"結果我們現在成效如何"},{"start":5342.95,"end":5343.95,"text":"都有一定的能力"},{"start":5344.43,"end":5345.43,"text":"有一定怎麼樣"},{"start":5345.43,"end":5346.43,"text":"有一定的能力"},{"start":5346.43,"end":5347.43,"text":"有一定的能力啊"},{"start":5347.43,"end":5349.43,"text":"那當然啊核心的問題其實"},{"start":5349.43,"end":5354.43,"text":"這個演習其實就是在一種驗證"},{"start":5354.43,"end":5355.43,"text":"我們整個戰力啊"},{"start":5355.43,"end":5358.43,"text":"我們一直在講說發展無人機的一個重要"},{"start":5358.43,"end":5361.43,"text":"那反無人機干擾這個部分啊"},{"start":5361.43,"end":5365.43,"text":"其實也是對於整個不對稱戰力的一個提升"},{"start":5365.43,"end":5366.43,"text":"都是非常的一個重要"},{"start":5366.43,"end":5368.43,"text":"另外我要請教就是說"},{"start":5368.43,"end":5370.43,"text":"我們歷年漢高演習裡面"},{"start":5370.43,"end":5373.43,"text":"差不多集中在4到7月"},{"start":5373.43,"end":5374.43,"text":"我看時間看看"},{"start":5374.43,"end":5377.43,"text":"2024年以後因為台米颱風來終止"},{"start":5377.43,"end":5379.43,"text":"所以今年就排在8月"},{"start":5379.43,"end":5382.43,"text":"那從現代戰爭來看已經改變了"},{"start":5382.43,"end":5384.43,"text":"像比如說無人載具啊"},{"start":5384.43,"end":5388.43,"text":"還有民船的軍用啊遠距的一個打擊啊"},{"start":5388.43,"end":5392.43,"text":"都讓敵軍不一定想攻擊對你造成威脅的人"},{"start":5392.43,"end":5395.43,"text":"不一定在傳統的一個季節裡面去做限制啊"},{"start":5395.43,"end":5398.43,"text":"另外一方面就是說你說颱風啊豪雨啊"},{"start":5398.43,"end":5400.43,"text":"像華聯的艷色斧的部分啊"},{"start":5400.43,"end":5402.43,"text":"都等極端的一個災害啊"},{"start":5402.43,"end":5405.43,"text":"都可能讓國軍投入大量的人力"},{"start":5405.43,"end":5407.43,"text":"那本席想問兩件事就是說"},{"start":5407.43,"end":5408.43,"text":"我們未來的漢光演習"},{"start":5408.43,"end":5410.43,"text":"你有沒有可能去建立一個"},{"start":5410.43,"end":5415.43,"text":"更有彈性的一個期限跟備援的機制"},{"start":5415.43,"end":5417.43,"text":"來確保重要的海空"},{"start":5417.43,"end":5420.43,"text":"或者說實彈科目不受因為"},{"start":5420.43,"end":5424.43,"text":"天候的一個反覆而取消"},{"start":5424.43,"end":5427.43,"text":"兵推有沒有可能去納入罪壞情況"},{"start":5427.43,"end":5431.43,"text":"比如說台灣正在發生這個重大的天然災害啊"},{"start":5431.43,"end":5433.43,"text":"國軍大量投入救災啊"},{"start":5433.43,"end":5437.43,"text":"這個時候啊這個敵軍趁機來發動攻擊兵推嘛"},{"start":5437.43,"end":5439.43,"text":"你總是要去設想各種不同的狀況"},{"start":5439.43,"end":5441.43,"text":"有沒有可能這兩個問題"},{"start":5442.47,"end":5446.47,"text":"八委員 其實在漢光演習的訓練喔"},{"start":5446.47,"end":5448.47,"text":"我們是採取這個循序漸進"},{"start":5448.47,"end":5452.47,"text":"跟連續的這個想定的這個導引"},{"start":5452.47,"end":5454.47,"text":"那實際上就可以依照部隊的這個"},{"start":5454.47,"end":5455.47,"text":"包含他的戰備任務"},{"start":5455.47,"end":5458.47,"text":"還有我們的訓練目標我們來擺定"},{"start":5458.47,"end":5460.47,"text":"那因為要結合實戰"},{"start":5460.47,"end":5463.47,"text":"所以天候的影響對於實戰的影響"},{"start":5463.47,"end":5466.47,"text":"也是在我們整個訓練的考驗之中"},{"start":5466.47,"end":5468.47,"text":"那因為今年的漢光演習"},{"start":5468.47,"end":5470.47,"text":"就是這個無劇本"},{"start":5470.47,"end":5472.47,"text":"有想定無劇本的這個安排"},{"start":5472.47,"end":5475.47,"text":"所以天候狀況也是在我們這次的狀況之中"},{"start":5475.47,"end":5477.47,"text":"所以在今年的漢光演習"},{"start":5477.47,"end":5479.47,"text":"在白海豚颱風來襲的時候"},{"start":5479.47,"end":5481.47,"text":"我們可以看到我們部分的科目"},{"start":5481.47,"end":5484.47,"text":"也是在這個環境允許的狀況之下"},{"start":5484.47,"end":5486.47,"text":"在風雨之中來進行"},{"start":5486.47,"end":5489.47,"text":"但是各種不管是航空器"},{"start":5489.47,"end":5491.47,"text":"或是戰備部隊的進行"},{"start":5491.47,"end":5492.47,"text":"我們都會依照天候標準"},{"start":5492.47,"end":5494.47,"text":"來確保安全的狀況之下"},{"start":5494.47,"end":5496.47,"text":"結合想定來執行"},{"start":5496.47,"end":5499.47,"text":"是啦 因為你整個漢光演習"},{"start":5499.47,"end":5502.47,"text":"其實就是整個戰力的一個驗證"},{"start":5502.47,"end":5504.47,"text":"那戰力的一個驗證的話"},{"start":5504.47,"end":5507.47,"text":"不可能說因為我們去設定"},{"start":5507.47,"end":5510.47,"text":"單獨的航空戰爭如何去進行"},{"start":5510.47,"end":5511.47,"text":"或者說突發狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":5511.47,"end":5513.47,"text":"都是在我們一切的控制之內"},{"start":5513.47,"end":5514.47,"text":"太多的一個變數"},{"start":5514.47,"end":5517.47,"text":"所以相關的部分其實我們也都應該"},{"start":5517.47,"end":5518.47,"text":"去做一個想定"},{"start":5518.47,"end":5520.47,"text":"把它列為一個科目"},{"start":5520.47,"end":5523.47,"text":"那另外最後一個問題要來請教就是說"},{"start":5523.51,"end":5524.51,"text":"我記得我三年前"},{"start":5524.51,"end":5528.51,"text":"前天去提到運動藝的一個問題"},{"start":5528.51,"end":5531.51,"text":"就是說我們現在恢復了一年的藝物藝"},{"start":5531.51,"end":5532.51,"text":"18到22歲"},{"start":5532.51,"end":5535.51,"text":"那其實是對一個運動員"},{"start":5535.51,"end":5537.51,"text":"競技養成的一個黃金旗"},{"start":5537.51,"end":5541.51,"text":"大家會說一年的訓練的一個空窗旗"},{"start":5541.51,"end":5545.51,"text":"確實會影響到整個職業的一個生涯"},{"start":5545.51,"end":5547.51,"text":"可是呢 我本身也去思考"},{"start":5547.51,"end":5551.51,"text":"如果單獨去恢復整個體育的一個替代役"},{"start":5551.51,"end":5555.51,"text":"也會碰到賓員甚至於公平性的一個問題"},{"start":5555.51,"end":5557.51,"text":"有人會問運動員可以啊"},{"start":5557.51,"end":5560.51,"text":"我半導體我專長我AI我資安"},{"start":5560.51,"end":5563.51,"text":"這一些人才那為什麼會變成不可以"},{"start":5563.51,"end":5565.51,"text":"所以我來請教國防部的就是說"},{"start":5565.51,"end":5567.51,"text":"有沒有可能去想就是說"},{"start":5567.51,"end":5569.51,"text":"不破壞賓藝的公平"},{"start":5569.51,"end":5572.51,"text":"不影響到賓員需求的前提之下"},{"start":5572.51,"end":5574.51,"text":"我們去降低那個一年議期"},{"start":5574.51,"end":5577.51,"text":"對於頂尖運動員的職來的衝擊"},{"start":5577.51,"end":5580.51,"text":"那是不是這個運動藝到現在"},{"start":5580.51,"end":5583.51,"text":"可以重新思考的時候"},{"start":5583.51,"end":5585.51,"text":"就是說他不是免當兵啦"},{"start":5585.51,"end":5589.51,"text":"是專才來服役 專才來專用"},{"start":5589.51,"end":5594.51,"text":"那運動員譬如說他完成基礎的軍事訓練以後"},{"start":5594.51,"end":5599.51,"text":"可以到他的專長去分發到軍事院校或者部隊"},{"start":5599.51,"end":5602.51,"text":"你去擔任這個整個戰術體能教官也好"},{"start":5602.51,"end":5605.51,"text":"然後科學化的訓練的助教也好"},{"start":5605.51,"end":5607.51,"text":"就把運動科學體能傷害"},{"start":5607.51,"end":5610.51,"text":"傷害這個把他帶到部隊裡面帶到國軍"},{"start":5610.51,"end":5612.51,"text":"又同時可以得到這些訓練"},{"start":5612.51,"end":5616.51,"text":"我本席到認為你們可以好好的去做一個考慮"},{"start":5616.51,"end":5617.51,"text":"那同樣的啊"},{"start":5617.51,"end":5620.51,"text":"你說你是AI的資安的半導體的醫專業"},{"start":5620.51,"end":5623.51,"text":"來分發到部隊啊或者說中科院啊"},{"start":5623.51,"end":5625.51,"text":"等重要的一個單位"},{"start":5625.51,"end":5628.51,"text":"這些有沒有可能再去想一下"},{"start":5628.51,"end":5631.51,"text":"但前提就是說那資格當然一定是公開"},{"start":5631.51,"end":5635.51,"text":"要這個嚴格不可以變成一個特權"},{"start":5635.51,"end":5638.51,"text":"更不可能變成一個逃兵的一個後門"},{"start":5638.51,"end":5641.51,"text":"就是說把這些專才"},{"start":5641.51,"end":5644.51,"text":"把部隊變成一個專才的部隊"},{"start":5644.51,"end":5647.51,"text":"讓這些人不會因為這一年的期間裡面"},{"start":5647.51,"end":5649.51,"text":"把我的因為服兵役"},{"start":5649.51,"end":5652.51,"text":"把我的專才全部都放到倉庫裡面去"},{"start":5652.51,"end":5654.51,"text":"不知道副部長你的想法"},{"start":5655.35,"end":5658.35,"text":"報告委員因為委員剛剛所提的意見"},{"start":5658.35,"end":5661.35,"text":"他牽涉到內政部的議政事務還有運動部"},{"start":5661.35,"end":5665.35,"text":"還有國防部我想我們需要做跨部會的研析"},{"start":5665.35,"end":5667.35,"text":"可以研議一下啦"},{"start":5667.35,"end":5669.35,"text":"因為本席到一直認為說"},{"start":5669.35,"end":5671.35,"text":"兵役義務跟產業的發展"},{"start":5671.35,"end":5673.35,"text":"運動也是一個產業"},{"start":5673.35,"end":5675.35,"text":"它不應該是一個零和的一個遊戲"},{"start":5675.35,"end":5679.35,"text":"王毅川啊吳宗憲委員啊陳永康將軍"},{"start":5679.35,"end":5682.35,"text":"回覆到他們現在18歲到20歲的時代"},{"start":5682.35,"end":5685.35,"text":"實在是說我的專才都因為做這件事"},{"start":5685.35,"end":5687.35,"text":"全部都塞進去"},{"start":5687.35,"end":5689.35,"text":"填完了可惜"},{"start":5689.35,"end":5691.35,"text":"部隊其實也可以善用啊"},{"start":5692.14,"end":5694.14,"text":"我有這樣的科技的"},{"start":5694.14,"end":5695.14,"text":"有這樣的資安的"},{"start":5695.14,"end":5696.14,"text":"我有這樣的運動的"},{"start":5696.14,"end":5698.14,"text":"我的部隊裡面出來的"},{"start":5698.14,"end":5700.14,"text":"我從部隊走出來讓人家覺得說"},{"start":5700.14,"end":5702.14,"text":"國軍的部隊就是專業的部隊"},{"start":5702.14,"end":5704.14,"text":"這個可以好好的思考一下可以嗎"},{"start":5704.14,"end":5707.14,"text":"是我們會配合其他部位我們一起來研究"},{"start":5707.14,"end":5709.14,"text":"好謝謝副部長"},{"start":5710.04,"end":5712.04,"text":"好謝謝莊瑞雄委員"},{"start":5713.26,"end":5716.26,"text":"接下來我們請省花會委員"},{"start":5718.07,"end":5720.07,"text":"省花會委員"},{"start":5721.2,"end":5723.2,"text":"省花會委員不在"},{"start":5723.2,"end":5725.2,"text":"好我們接下來請吳宗憲委員"},{"start":5732.23,"end":5735.23,"text":"謝謝主席啊我們麻煩法務部還有司法院"},{"start":5743.77,"end":5745.77,"text":"法務部司法院"},{"start":5745.77,"end":5747.77,"text":"我想今天我們"},{"start":5747.77,"end":5750.77,"text":"要審查獨駕還有落海公益刑法24條的"},{"start":5750.77,"end":5752.77,"text":"效忠罪還有降罹罪"},{"start":5752.77,"end":5754.77,"text":"我先講一下獨駕的部分"},{"start":5754.77,"end":5757.77,"text":"對於路上不特定人的生命"},{"start":5757.77,"end":5759.77,"text":"身體造成一些危害"},{"start":5759.77,"end":5762.77,"text":"那我支持啦這個部分本來就應該要"},{"start":5762.77,"end":5764.77,"text":"慎重嚴重的去處理"},{"start":5764.77,"end":5766.77,"text":"所以這個部分我覺得"},{"start":5766.77,"end":5769.77,"text":"我是大力的支持"},{"start":5769.77,"end":5772.77,"text":"但是我今天還要談到另外一個就是"},{"start":5772.77,"end":5774.77,"text":"我們這次落海公益刑法的部分"},{"start":5774.77,"end":5777.77,"text":"有新增還有一些修法"},{"start":5777.77,"end":5780.77,"text":"那我個人當然是完全支持國家安全"},{"start":5780.77,"end":5782.77,"text":"這是一件非常重要的事情"},{"start":5782.77,"end":5784.77,"text":"但是在陳平時期我們要避免說"},{"start":5784.77,"end":5786.77,"text":"因為法律的不明確"},{"start":5786.77,"end":5788.77,"text":"然後造成人民無所適從"},{"start":5788.77,"end":5791.77,"text":"所以我今天必須要清楚知道的一個點就是"},{"start":5791.77,"end":5794.77,"text":"現行的我們落海公益刑法"},{"start":5794.77,"end":5798.77,"text":"17、18、19條還有加上這次新增的效忠罪"},{"start":5798.77,"end":5801.77,"text":"還有我們有落海空軍的懲罰法"},{"start":5801.77,"end":5802.77,"text":"這幾個東西都"},{"start":5803.5,"end":5804.5,"text":"都"},{"start":5804.74,"end":5806.74,"text":"用了以後會漏掉的行為模式"},{"start":5806.74,"end":5809.74,"text":"那才是我們必須要再新增的法條嘛"},{"start":5809.74,"end":5811.74,"text":"那我現在就是有一個疑問就是"},{"start":5811.74,"end":5814.74,"text":"那我們今天要新增條文我沒有意見"},{"start":5814.74,"end":5817.74,"text":"但是新增的東西真的是在補過往沒有辦法"},{"start":5818.5,"end":5819.5,"text":"處理的漏洞嗎"},{"start":5819.5,"end":5821.5,"text":"就是我們現在常常發生一個狀況就是"},{"start":5821.5,"end":5823.5,"text":"已經有法律規定了"},{"start":5823.5,"end":5826.5,"text":"但是行政機關又送一個新增的法律過來"},{"start":5826.5,"end":5827.5,"text":"變成說同一個行為"},{"start":5827.5,"end":5829.5,"text":"你到時候可以找到兩個條文來處理"},{"start":5829.5,"end":5831.5,"text":"這個我們現在很常遇到"},{"start":5831.5,"end":5833.5,"text":"或是有時候又有人說"},{"start":5833.5,"end":5835.5,"text":"這個動不動就推給說立法疏漏"},{"start":5835.5,"end":5837.5,"text":"立法院沒有執行好"},{"start":5837.5,"end":5841.5,"text":"很多時候是行政機關你早就有法可循了"},{"start":5841.5,"end":5843.5,"text":"你沒有做好之後你就推到那個說"},{"start":5843.5,"end":5846.5,"text":"立法院這邊沒有把事情講清楚"},{"start":5846.5,"end":5848.5,"text":"譬如說我這次講到我們這次看到的"},{"start":5848.5,"end":5853.5,"text":"那個24條把刑法提到陰謀欲備犯"},{"start":5853.5,"end":5856.5,"text":"像這個部分我看到法務部其實也沒有講什麼"},{"start":5856.5,"end":5858.5,"text":"他就一句競表贊同"},{"start":5858.5,"end":5861.5,"text":"但是法務部今天在講到獨價的時候"},{"start":5861.5,"end":5863.5,"text":"卻非常非常的仔細"},{"start":5863.5,"end":5867.5,"text":"連這邊什麼講到有沒有殺人故意要區分"},{"start":5867.5,"end":5870.5,"text":"脫藝可不可以當作定罪證據要求確值"},{"start":5870.5,"end":5872.5,"text":"那個復驗還有嚴格證明"},{"start":5872.5,"end":5874.5,"text":"這個都講清楚處"},{"start":5874.5,"end":5877.5,"text":"但是講到我們24條的時候"},{"start":5877.5,"end":5880.5,"text":"卻講得不清不楚只有一句競表贊同"},{"start":5880.5,"end":5882.5,"text":"所以這部分我還是覺得"},{"start":5882.5,"end":5884.5,"text":"我認為不應該這樣子"},{"start":5884.5,"end":5887.5,"text":"你要新增一個法律你必須告訴我你要補哪一個洞"},{"start":5887.5,"end":5891.5,"text":"那24條第五項這個效忠表示罪"},{"start":5891.5,"end":5893.5,"text":"這個部分其實我是支持的"},{"start":5893.5,"end":5895.5,"text":"我認為說本來就應該要這樣"},{"start":5895.5,"end":5897.5,"text":"那所以我自己有一個條文"},{"start":5897.5,"end":5899.5,"text":"但是我覺得現有的條文裡面"},{"start":5899.5,"end":5901.5,"text":"有一個很奇怪的地方就是"},{"start":5901.5,"end":5903.5,"text":"他卻沒有去提到說"},{"start":5903.5,"end":5905.5,"text":"要有逐生軍事上的不利"},{"start":5905.5,"end":5907.5,"text":"所以到最後變成一個"},{"start":5907.5,"end":5909.5,"text":"好像會變成是一個類思想犯"},{"start":5909.5,"end":5911.5,"text":"今天如果說一個軍人"},{"start":5911.5,"end":5912.5,"text":"他只是簡單講一個說"},{"start":5912.5,"end":5913.5,"text":"我認為好像沒有勝算"},{"start":5913.5,"end":5916.5,"text":"或者是說我為了一家老小"},{"start":5917.32,"end":5919.32,"text":"我到底該不該上戰場等等的"},{"start":5919.32,"end":5920.32,"text":"像這種言論出來的時候"},{"start":5920.32,"end":5922.32,"text":"有沒有可能會涉嫌違法"},{"start":5922.32,"end":5924.32,"text":"你定義不清楚啊"},{"start":5924.32,"end":5926.32,"text":"所以我想要理解一下"},{"start":5926.32,"end":5928.32,"text":"為什麼你們認為說"},{"start":5928.32,"end":5930.32,"text":"我們這個24條的部分"},{"start":5930.32,"end":5932.32,"text":"24條第五項"},{"start":5932.32,"end":5934.32,"text":"他不需要有一個逐生軍事上的不利"},{"start":5939.52,"end":5941.52,"text":"對對來法務部"},{"start":5941.94,"end":5943.94,"text":"那跟委員報告"},{"start":5943.94,"end":5944.94,"text":"因為這個陸海空軍刑法"},{"start":5944.94,"end":5946.94,"text":"當然是國防部主責的這個法案"},{"start":5946.94,"end":5949.94,"text":"那就這個甄定第五項的部分"},{"start":5949.94,"end":5951.94,"text":"我想在國防部在這個立法說明裡面"},{"start":5951.94,"end":5953.94,"text":"他們應該是認為說"},{"start":5953.94,"end":5955.94,"text":"如果軍人他有對敵人"},{"start":5955.94,"end":5957.94,"text":"為效忠的表示這樣子的"},{"start":5957.94,"end":5958.94,"text":"一個行為的話"},{"start":5958.94,"end":5960.94,"text":"他其實就已經產生了"},{"start":5960.94,"end":5961.94,"text":"軍事上的不利益"},{"start":5961.94,"end":5963.94,"text":"所以他們認為說"},{"start":5963.94,"end":5965.94,"text":"這樣子的一個行為其實"},{"start":5965.94,"end":5967.94,"text":"那如果他只是讓一個朋友說"},{"start":5967.94,"end":5969.94,"text":"我不想打仗這樣算不算"},{"start":5969.94,"end":5971.94,"text":"那跟委員報告"},{"start":5971.94,"end":5972.94,"text":"就是任何的犯罪"},{"start":5972.94,"end":5973.94,"text":"他都要有主觀構成要件"},{"start":5973.94,"end":5975.94,"text":"跟客觀構成要件的去合制"},{"start":5975.94,"end":5976.94,"text":"才會犯罪"},{"start":5976.94,"end":5977.94,"text":"他確實不想打"},{"start":5977.94,"end":5978.94,"text":"然後他讓一個朋友說"},{"start":5978.94,"end":5980.94,"text":"我不想打主觀客觀都有"},{"start":5980.94,"end":5981.94,"text":"那這樣有沒有構成"},{"start":5981.94,"end":5983.94,"text":"那我想如果這樣子的一個行為"},{"start":5983.94,"end":5984.94,"text":"是否構成"},{"start":5984.94,"end":5987.94,"text":"當然是要由這個司法機關來做一個認定"},{"start":5987.94,"end":5988.94,"text":"那這樣等於沒有回答啊"},{"start":5989.61,"end":5990.61,"text":"我跟你講"},{"start":5990.61,"end":5992.61,"text":"因為這個狀況是我上次"},{"start":5992.61,"end":5993.61,"text":"國防部副部長回來"},{"start":5993.61,"end":5994.61,"text":"我問他類似的問題"},{"start":5994.61,"end":5995.61,"text":"他也答不出來"},{"start":5995.61,"end":5996.61,"text":"那我當時講了一句話"},{"start":5996.61,"end":5998.61,"text":"我說連你貴為將軍的人"},{"start":5998.61,"end":5999.61,"text":"都答不出來"},{"start":5999.61,"end":6000.61,"text":"那請問一下"},{"start":6000.61,"end":6001.61,"text":"我們底下一個二等兵"},{"start":6001.61,"end":6002.61,"text":"他怎麼懂"},{"start":6002.61,"end":6003.61,"text":"我到底行為有沒有違法"},{"start":6003.61,"end":6005.61,"text":"我只是日常的抱怨"},{"start":6005.61,"end":6007.61,"text":"我只是像我們很多人都會抱怨老闆"},{"start":6007.61,"end":6009.61,"text":"但是你還是會怨老闆效忠啊"},{"start":6009.61,"end":6010.61,"text":"我們很多人在公司上班"},{"start":6010.61,"end":6013.61,"text":"也是每天從早罵老闆罵到晚"},{"start":6013.61,"end":6014.61,"text":"但是老闆叫我們做什麼"},{"start":6014.61,"end":6015.61,"text":"還是盡力去做"},{"start":6015.61,"end":6016.61,"text":"如果說把這個東西放進去"},{"start":6016.61,"end":6019.61,"text":"而且不需要逐生軍事上的不利"},{"start":6019.61,"end":6020.61,"text":"你就要把他加以處罰的話"},{"start":6020.61,"end":6023.61,"text":"我認為這個牽連會非常的廣"},{"start":6023.61,"end":6025.61,"text":"更何況這個是針對陳平時期"},{"start":6025.61,"end":6026.61,"text":"不是戰時喔"},{"start":6027.68,"end":6029.68,"text":"那在構成要件裡面"},{"start":6029.68,"end":6032.68,"text":"他其實有一個對敵人為效忠之表示"},{"start":6032.68,"end":6033.68,"text":"所以這個表示"},{"start":6033.68,"end":6034.68,"text":"他必須要是對敵人"},{"start":6034.68,"end":6036.68,"text":"而不是我剛才委員提到的"},{"start":6036.68,"end":6038.68,"text":"他似乎是單純的一個抱怨"},{"start":6038.68,"end":6039.68,"text":"不是啊"},{"start":6039.68,"end":6040.68,"text":"那你的敵人的定義又更麻煩了"},{"start":6040.68,"end":6042.68,"text":"我今天打線上遊戲"},{"start":6042.68,"end":6043.68,"text":"我們現在線上遊戲"},{"start":6043.68,"end":6046.68,"text":"就是全國全世界都可以連線打的"},{"start":6046.68,"end":6047.68,"text":"你永遠不知道你"},{"start":6047.68,"end":6048.68,"text":"那你一隊的人"},{"start":6048.68,"end":6050.68,"text":"他可能是中國大陸的軍人啊"},{"start":6050.68,"end":6051.68,"text":"這個很難說"},{"start":6051.68,"end":6053.68,"text":"你打線上遊戲的時候"},{"start":6053.68,"end":6055.68,"text":"你同一隊的人是誰你不知道"},{"start":6055.68,"end":6057.68,"text":"那這時候很容易就被扣帽子"},{"start":6057.68,"end":6058.68,"text":"那第二個就是說"},{"start":6058.68,"end":6060.68,"text":"你今天跟他聯繫的那個對象"},{"start":6060.68,"end":6061.68,"text":"他到底是什麼"},{"start":6061.68,"end":6063.68,"text":"他有沒有其他的背景"},{"start":6063.68,"end":6064.68,"text":"我們很多時候不清楚嘛"},{"start":6066.97,"end":6069.97,"text":"我們今天民進黨的高層"},{"start":6069.97,"end":6070.97,"text":"也被發現很多共諜啊"},{"start":6070.97,"end":6073.97,"text":"那我相信他是執政黨的官員"},{"start":6073.97,"end":6077.97,"text":"執政黨的官員身邊的秘書"},{"start":6077.97,"end":6078.97,"text":"我也相信"},{"start":6078.97,"end":6079.97,"text":"我覺得他應該是為台灣好"},{"start":6079.97,"end":6081.97,"text":"就我跟他講了這個話"},{"start":6081.97,"end":6083.97,"text":"結果後來他被發現是共諜"},{"start":6083.97,"end":6085.97,"text":"那這個算不算對敵人"},{"start":6085.97,"end":6087.97,"text":"所以我認為千年盛廣"},{"start":6087.97,"end":6089.97,"text":"尤其是在非戰爭時期"},{"start":6089.97,"end":6091.97,"text":"你認為說不需要逐生君上不利"},{"start":6091.97,"end":6093.97,"text":"我這是一個很大的風險"},{"start":6095.03,"end":6099.03,"text":"我就說我支持這個忠誠義務"},{"start":6099.03,"end":6102.03,"text":"所以24條的部分第五項"},{"start":6102.03,"end":6103.03,"text":"我也支持"},{"start":6103.03,"end":6104.03,"text":"但是我認為要加上一個"},{"start":6104.03,"end":6106.03,"text":"逐生君上的不利"},{"start":6106.03,"end":6107.03,"text":"那我也不懂說"},{"start":6107.03,"end":6109.03,"text":"法務部就一句競表贊同"},{"start":6109.03,"end":6110.03,"text":"好像就是說"},{"start":6111.14,"end":6114.14,"text":"我認為你們在處理其他的犯罪的時候"},{"start":6114.14,"end":6115.14,"text":"你們非常非常嚴謹"},{"start":6115.14,"end":6116.14,"text":"像我剛剛講的"},{"start":6116.14,"end":6117.14,"text":"獨價"},{"start":6117.14,"end":6118.14,"text":"你們連口水的確值"},{"start":6118.14,"end":6120.14,"text":"你們都要求到這麼精確"},{"start":6120.14,"end":6122.14,"text":"但是在處理這種"},{"start":6122.99,"end":6123.99,"text":"其他的案子的時候"},{"start":6123.99,"end":6125.99,"text":"國家安全案子的時候"},{"start":6125.99,"end":6127.99,"text":"你們卻放得非常的寬"},{"start":6127.99,"end":6129.99,"text":"這一點是我不太能夠理解"},{"start":6129.99,"end":6130.99,"text":"甚至我覺得"},{"start":6130.99,"end":6132.99,"text":"司法院你們的想法呢"},{"start":6133.54,"end":6134.54,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":6134.54,"end":6136.54,"text":"關於這個24條第五項的部分"},{"start":6136.54,"end":6138.54,"text":"我們提出的書面意見是認為"},{"start":6138.54,"end":6139.54,"text":"可以用適性犯來處理"},{"start":6139.54,"end":6140.54,"text":"那剛剛委員所講"},{"start":6140.54,"end":6142.54,"text":"逐生君上不利"},{"start":6142.54,"end":6144.54,"text":"就是在最高法院的見解"},{"start":6144.54,"end":6146.54,"text":"這個叫這個刑事的適性犯"},{"start":6146.54,"end":6150.54,"text":"那他可以有比較有效的去限縮處罰的犯"},{"start":6150.54,"end":6151.54,"text":"所以司法院"},{"start":6151.54,"end":6154.54,"text":"因為我看到司法院的見解是認為說"},{"start":6154.54,"end":6155.54,"text":"也是有必要"},{"start":6155.54,"end":6157.54,"text":"把它加上這個要件"},{"start":6157.54,"end":6158.54,"text":"現在變成說"},{"start":6158.54,"end":6160.54,"text":"司法院跟法務部兩個想法不一樣"},{"start":6160.54,"end":6162.54,"text":"法務部現在對於國防部的想法就是"},{"start":6162.54,"end":6164.54,"text":"性表戰當你說什麼就好"},{"start":6164.81,"end":6166.81,"text":"那我覺得這就不專業了嘛"},{"start":6166.81,"end":6167.81,"text":"那這樣子的話"},{"start":6167.81,"end":6169.81,"text":"其實我覺得牽連甚廣"},{"start":6169.81,"end":6172.81,"text":"那陳平時期很多人都會出事情"},{"start":6172.81,"end":6174.81,"text":"那我只是說"},{"start":6174.81,"end":6175.81,"text":"我還是堅持一個點"},{"start":6175.81,"end":6178.81,"text":"我對於24條的第五項"},{"start":6178.81,"end":6179.81,"text":"我是支持的"},{"start":6179.81,"end":6181.81,"text":"但是我認為不能夠隨隨便便"},{"start":6181.81,"end":6183.81,"text":"毫無門檻"},{"start":6183.81,"end":6184.81,"text":"我認為說還是要加上"},{"start":6184.81,"end":6185.81,"text":"逐生君上不利"},{"start":6185.81,"end":6187.81,"text":"這個要求是我認為需要做到"},{"start":6187.81,"end":6189.81,"text":"而且我看到民進黨委員"},{"start":6189.81,"end":6191.81,"text":"他所提出來的案子"},{"start":6191.81,"end":6193.81,"text":"好像是那個陳冠廷委員"},{"start":6193.81,"end":6194.81,"text":"陳冠廷委員他提出來的"},{"start":6194.81,"end":6196.81,"text":"裡面也是要求要"},{"start":6196.81,"end":6197.81,"text":"逐生君上不利"},{"start":6197.81,"end":6198.81,"text":"所以這個部分"},{"start":6198.81,"end":6199.81,"text":"其實我覺得民進黨的提案"},{"start":6199.81,"end":6201.81,"text":"跟我的提案都有這一條"},{"start":6201.81,"end":6203.81,"text":"法務部是不是可以再仔細再想一下"},{"start":6203.81,"end":6205.81,"text":"而不是說一句進表同意"},{"start":6205.81,"end":6207.81,"text":"那你是國防部的小孩嗎"},{"start":6207.81,"end":6208.81,"text":"好 那再來喔"},{"start":6208.81,"end":6211.81,"text":"24條還有一個第四項"},{"start":6211.81,"end":6213.81,"text":"我們增定陰謀跟預備降敵"},{"start":6213.81,"end":6214.81,"text":"我想我們"},{"start":6214.81,"end":6217.81,"text":"我這個部分我也是覺得很糟糕"},{"start":6217.81,"end":6219.81,"text":"就是第一項投敵"},{"start":6219.81,"end":6220.81,"text":"這個要嚴懲"},{"start":6220.81,"end":6221.81,"text":"絕對沒有問題"},{"start":6221.81,"end":6222.81,"text":"百分之百要嚴懲"},{"start":6222.81,"end":6224.81,"text":"24條那個第一項"},{"start":6224.81,"end":6226.81,"text":"但是你把降敵"},{"start":6226.81,"end":6229.81,"text":"你連陰謀預備犯都要把它處理進去"},{"start":6229.81,"end":6232.81,"text":"這是我認為一個很大風險的地方"},{"start":6232.81,"end":6234.81,"text":"我想主席是學法律的"},{"start":6234.81,"end":6235.81,"text":"他一定知道"},{"start":6235.81,"end":6238.81,"text":"我國刑罰會處罰到陰謀預備的條文"},{"start":6238.81,"end":6239.81,"text":"非常非常少"},{"start":6239.81,"end":6243.81,"text":"也就是說幾乎99%都不會處罰到陰謀預備"},{"start":6243.81,"end":6244.81,"text":"我這邊簡單講一下"},{"start":6244.81,"end":6246.81,"text":"我跟大家報告一下"},{"start":6246.81,"end":6248.81,"text":"我們犯罪行為的過程"},{"start":6248.81,"end":6251.81,"text":"決議陰謀預備著手"},{"start":6251.81,"end":6252.81,"text":"然後再談到機會稅"},{"start":6252.81,"end":6253.81,"text":"那當然"},{"start":6254.8,"end":6255.8,"text":"你在"},{"start":6255.96,"end":6256.96,"text":"我們以殺人罪來說"},{"start":6256.96,"end":6258.96,"text":"你想要殺一個人是決議"},{"start":6258.96,"end":6259.96,"text":"那你開始在"},{"start":6259.96,"end":6262.96,"text":"既定整個計畫就是陰謀"},{"start":6262.96,"end":6264.96,"text":"預備是你跑去買刀子了"},{"start":6264.96,"end":6266.96,"text":"左手就你跑去他家"},{"start":6266.96,"end":6267.96,"text":"所以我們一般人覺得"},{"start":6267.96,"end":6269.96,"text":"左手才是真正開始殺人"},{"start":6269.96,"end":6271.96,"text":"可是因為殺人罪很嚴重"},{"start":6271.96,"end":6274.96,"text":"所以我們把它提升到陰謀預備的階段"},{"start":6274.96,"end":6275.96,"text":"所以才會有這個"},{"start":6275.96,"end":6278.96,"text":"但是你今天卻對於一個所謂的降敵"},{"start":6278.96,"end":6281.96,"text":"你要把它拉到陰謀跟預備"},{"start":6281.96,"end":6284.96,"text":"那這個問題會變得風險越來越高"},{"start":6284.96,"end":6285.96,"text":"等一下"},{"start":6285.88,"end":6286.88,"text":"我會覺得變成是一個"},{"start":6286.88,"end":6288.88,"text":"控制一個思想犯"},{"start":6288.88,"end":6289.88,"text":"我講一個很簡單"},{"start":6289.88,"end":6292.88,"text":"去年國民黨很多委員被提罷免案"},{"start":6292.88,"end":6293.88,"text":"其中一個理由是說"},{"start":6293.88,"end":6295.88,"text":"因為你支持核能"},{"start":6295.88,"end":6297.88,"text":"所以去年支持核能的人叫做"},{"start":6297.88,"end":6299.88,"text":"你要配合解放軍攻台的時候"},{"start":6299.88,"end":6301.88,"text":"可以轟炸核能電廠"},{"start":6301.88,"end":6302.88,"text":"今年我們賴總統"},{"start":6302.88,"end":6304.88,"text":"認為核能要重新使用"},{"start":6304.88,"end":6306.88,"text":"今年開始反核的人變成"},{"start":6306.88,"end":6307.88,"text":"你要破壞台灣的經濟"},{"start":6307.88,"end":6309.88,"text":"配合解放軍攻台"},{"start":6309.88,"end":6311.88,"text":"也就是說同樣的事情"},{"start":6311.88,"end":6312.88,"text":"現在就是隨機"},{"start":6312.88,"end":6314.88,"text":"隨時都可以幫你扣帽子"},{"start":6314.88,"end":6315.88,"text":"那以這個狀況之下"},{"start":6315.88,"end":6317.88,"text":"我覺得如果你把所謂的降敵"},{"start":6317.88,"end":6319.88,"text":"拉到陰謀預備"},{"start":6319.88,"end":6321.88,"text":"我覺得這個風險非常非常的高"},{"start":6321.88,"end":6325.88,"text":"那你今天你要把降敵加上陰謀預備"},{"start":6325.88,"end":6326.88,"text":"我也沒意見"},{"start":6326.88,"end":6328.88,"text":"那我想請問一下法務部以及司法院"},{"start":6328.88,"end":6331.88,"text":"目前有沒有任何一個實際案例"},{"start":6331.88,"end":6335.88,"text":"可以說明為什麼我們17 18 19"},{"start":6335.88,"end":6336.88,"text":"跟24條第一項"},{"start":6336.88,"end":6337.88,"text":"都沒有辦法處理"},{"start":6337.88,"end":6340.88,"text":"要增訂24條的第四項"},{"start":6342.16,"end":6344.16,"text":"有哪一個實際的例子"},{"start":6344.16,"end":6345.16,"text":"你可以講給我聽"},{"start":6347.9,"end":6348.9,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":6348.9,"end":6350.9,"text":"因為這個是國防部他們主管的法規"},{"start":6350.9,"end":6352.9,"text":"不是 法務部你不能這樣講"},{"start":6352.9,"end":6355.9,"text":"他們要增訂這個法條的話"},{"start":6355.9,"end":6357.9,"text":"我想有他們的用意"},{"start":6357.9,"end":6359.9,"text":"那是不是可以請國防部來說明"},{"start":6359.9,"end":6361.9,"text":"不是 你們競表同意"},{"start":6361.9,"end":6362.9,"text":"那你們競表同意"},{"start":6362.9,"end":6365.9,"text":"你認為國防部這樣定是對的"},{"start":6365.9,"end":6366.9,"text":"我今天是這樣"},{"start":6366.9,"end":6368.9,"text":"如果今天有一個行為"},{"start":6368.9,"end":6372.9,"text":"真的有需要把降敵拉到陰謀預備"},{"start":6372.9,"end":6374.9,"text":"你跟我講一個實際的案例"},{"start":6374.9,"end":6375.9,"text":"那我就沒有意見"},{"start":6375.9,"end":6377.9,"text":"但如果過往都沒有"},{"start":6377.9,"end":6378.9,"text":"或者是過往的所有行為"},{"start":6378.9,"end":6380.9,"text":"你們都直接用17條"},{"start":6380.9,"end":6382.9,"text":"18條19條就可以解決了"},{"start":6382.9,"end":6384.9,"text":"那為什麼今天要新增一個條文"},{"start":6384.9,"end":6386.9,"text":"我的問題在這裡"},{"start":6386.9,"end":6388.9,"text":"國防部或者是司法院或法務部"},{"start":6388.9,"end":6390.9,"text":"你們可不可以給我講出一個例子"},{"start":6391.37,"end":6392.37,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":6392.37,"end":6394.37,"text":"我在思考國防部"},{"start":6394.37,"end":6397.37,"text":"他們是為了對外能夠防治敵方"},{"start":6397.37,"end":6399.37,"text":"靠近麥克風一點"},{"start":6399.37,"end":6401.37,"text":"我想國防部增訂這個"},{"start":6401.37,"end":6404.37,"text":"我們知道陰謀預備是法醫保護的前置化"},{"start":6404.37,"end":6406.37,"text":"那我們再去查過往案例"},{"start":6406.37,"end":6408.37,"text":"如果已經降敵 祭祟的話"},{"start":6408.37,"end":6410.37,"text":"那可能在大陸時代"},{"start":6410.37,"end":6412.37,"text":"八年抗戰的時候有這種案例"},{"start":6412.37,"end":6414.37,"text":"如果是在現代的戰爭"},{"start":6414.37,"end":6416.37,"text":"假設我們沒有辦法保存戰力"},{"start":6416.37,"end":6418.37,"text":"很快的被打敗的時候"},{"start":6418.37,"end":6419.37,"text":"或是說軍力動搖"},{"start":6419.37,"end":6421.37,"text":"那如果沒有在保護的前置化"},{"start":6421.37,"end":6423.37,"text":"那降敵已經祭祟"},{"start":6423.37,"end":6424.37,"text":"那要怎麼處罰"},{"start":6424.37,"end":6426.37,"text":"那所以我想國防部他們要保衛國家安全"},{"start":6426.37,"end":6428.37,"text":"他可能有一定的用意"},{"start":6428.37,"end":6431.37,"text":"那我當然也了解委員關切這個"},{"start":6431.37,"end":6433.37,"text":"刑罰法律的明確性"},{"start":6433.37,"end":6436.37,"text":"以及在含涉具體事實可能產生不確定"},{"start":6436.37,"end":6439.37,"text":"這個是非常重要的憲法角度"},{"start":6439.37,"end":6440.37,"text":"那我想這個部分"},{"start":6440.37,"end":6442.37,"text":"我還是這樣啦"},{"start":6442.37,"end":6443.37,"text":"我要再講一個重點"},{"start":6443.37,"end":6445.37,"text":"陳平時期"},{"start":6445.37,"end":6447.37,"text":"這個東西是可以對陳平時期"},{"start":6447.37,"end":6448.37,"text":"不是暫時"},{"start":6448.37,"end":6450.37,"text":"暫時有暫時最高標準要求"},{"start":6450.37,"end":6451.37,"text":"我沒有意見"},{"start":6451.37,"end":6453.37,"text":"第二個我們在場很多念法律的人"},{"start":6453.37,"end":6456.37,"text":"實質行為著手了以後"},{"start":6456.37,"end":6458.37,"text":"嚴懲我也沒有意見"},{"start":6458.37,"end":6460.37,"text":"但是今天是要把降敵"},{"start":6460.37,"end":6461.37,"text":"不是投敵喔"},{"start":6461.37,"end":6463.37,"text":"降敵你要拉到陰謀欲備"},{"start":6463.37,"end":6465.37,"text":"這是我擔心的部分"},{"start":6465.37,"end":6467.37,"text":"因為國家政黨可能都會輪替"},{"start":6467.37,"end":6469.37,"text":"那我不希望任何一個執政之後"},{"start":6469.37,"end":6471.37,"text":"都拿這個東西來修理"},{"start":6471.37,"end":6473.37,"text":"他不喜歡的人"},{"start":6473.37,"end":6475.37,"text":"所以你一個東西要拉到陰謀欲備"},{"start":6475.37,"end":6477.37,"text":"我覺得不能那麼隨便"},{"start":6477.37,"end":6478.37,"text":"甚至你可不可以告訴我"},{"start":6478.37,"end":6480.37,"text":"目前我國發生了"},{"start":6480.37,"end":6482.37,"text":"哪一個實際案例之後"},{"start":6482.37,"end":6484.37,"text":"因為沒有這個條文"},{"start":6484.37,"end":6486.37,"text":"而我們沒有辦法處罰"},{"start":6486.37,"end":6487.37,"text":"可不可以告訴我一個例子就好"},{"start":6488.77,"end":6489.27,"text":"有沒有"},{"start":6494.45,"end":6496.45,"text":"實際上案例他們可能比較了解"},{"start":6496.45,"end":6497.45,"text":"有沒有一個例子"},{"start":6497.45,"end":6498.45,"text":"可是國防部也有在嘛"},{"start":6498.45,"end":6499.45,"text":"請公布"},{"start":6501.62,"end":6502.62,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":6502.62,"end":6505.62,"text":"那個降敵最現在沒有相關的案例"},{"start":6505.62,"end":6506.62,"text":"對"},{"start":6506.62,"end":6507.62,"text":"那現在沒有相關的案例"},{"start":6507.62,"end":6509.62,"text":"你要把這個拉到陰謀欲備"},{"start":6509.62,"end":6511.62,"text":"因為中共現在滲透我們國軍的手法"},{"start":6511.62,"end":6512.62,"text":"現在是多元化"},{"start":6512.62,"end":6513.62,"text":"那我們"},{"start":6513.62,"end":6515.62,"text":"這個不構成理由"},{"start":6515.62,"end":6517.62,"text":"我們之前發現說"},{"start":6517.62,"end":6518.62,"text":"在謝孟蘇"},{"start":6518.62,"end":6520.62,"text":"也就是我們航特部的軍官"},{"start":6520.73,"end":6521.73,"text":"他"},{"start":6523.08,"end":6525.08,"text":"對敵人為效忠的表示"},{"start":6525.08,"end":6526.08,"text":"那他之前"},{"start":6526.08,"end":6527.08,"text":"我跟你講你講了"},{"start":6527.08,"end":6529.08,"text":"17 18 19都可以處理"},{"start":6530.37,"end":6532.37,"text":"你講的東西17 18 19都能夠處理"},{"start":6532.37,"end":6534.37,"text":"這個案例當中"},{"start":6534.37,"end":6536.37,"text":"所謂的陰謀就是兩個人以上"},{"start":6536.37,"end":6538.37,"text":"對一定犯罪實施是模擬"},{"start":6538.37,"end":6540.37,"text":"但他在這個犯罪行為之前"},{"start":6540.37,"end":6542.37,"text":"他有做這個模擬"},{"start":6542.37,"end":6544.37,"text":"有兩個人以上"},{"start":6544.37,"end":6546.37,"text":"可能要嫁他的直升機"},{"start":6546.37,"end":6549.37,"text":"新生法律不能靠想像啦"},{"start":6549.37,"end":6551.37,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6551.37,"end":6553.37,"text":"我們主條的孫子"},{"start":6553.37,"end":6555.37,"text":"那可不可以"},{"start":6555.37,"end":6556.37,"text":"再來討論一下"},{"start":6556.64,"end":6558.64,"text":"好"},{"start":6557.88,"end":6558.88,"text":"這個部分"},{"start":6558.88,"end":6559.88,"text":"我甚至我都覺得將來"},{"start":6559.88,"end":6560.88,"text":"是不是有一些東西應該"},{"start":6561.72,"end":6562.72,"text":"如果我們"},{"start":6562.72,"end":6563.72,"text":"我們可以"},{"start":6563.72,"end":6564.72,"text":"不是不是"},{"start":6564.72,"end":6565.72,"text":"這個在主條的時候"},{"start":6565.72,"end":6567.72,"text":"大家可以好好來討論"},{"start":6567.72,"end":6568.72,"text":"這些"},{"start":6568.72,"end":6569.72,"text":"個人對"},{"start":6569.72,"end":6571.72,"text":"每一個人對國家安全的"},{"start":6571.72,"end":6573.72,"text":"看法會有所不同"},{"start":6573.72,"end":6577.72,"text":"那到底要不要把對於"},{"start":6577.72,"end":6580.72,"text":"敵對勢力的這一種"},{"start":6580.72,"end":6581.72,"text":"滲透"},{"start":6581.72,"end":6583.72,"text":"或者在部隊裡面的"},{"start":6583.72,"end":6584.72,"text":"對一般老百姓的話"},{"start":6584.72,"end":6586.72,"text":"你說言論自由思想自由"},{"start":6586.72,"end":6588.72,"text":"這個都沒有問題"},{"start":6588.72,"end":6589.72,"text":"但是說在部隊裡面"},{"start":6589.72,"end":6590.72,"text":"有涉及到"},{"start":6590.72,"end":6591.72,"text":"他一個動作"},{"start":6591.72,"end":6593.72,"text":"或者說他哪一些行為"},{"start":6593.72,"end":6595.72,"text":"涉及到說你的預備啦"},{"start":6595.72,"end":6597.72,"text":"陰謀要叛國啦"},{"start":6597.72,"end":6599.72,"text":"可能處理的方式"},{"start":6599.72,"end":6601.72,"text":"國人也會認為說"},{"start":6601.72,"end":6603.72,"text":"部隊是不是要做不同的處理"},{"start":6603.72,"end":6605.72,"text":"那倒也不會因為說討厭誰"},{"start":6605.72,"end":6606.72,"text":"不會啦"},{"start":6606.72,"end":6607.72,"text":"誰家的子弟"},{"start":6607.72,"end":6609.72,"text":"或者說誰去當兵的人"},{"start":6609.72,"end":6610.72,"text":"涉及到這樣一個"},{"start":6610.72,"end":6611.72,"text":"應該用行為來判斷"},{"start":6611.72,"end":6613.72,"text":"那我就直接結尾好"},{"start":6613.72,"end":6615.72,"text":"我就不浪費大家時間"},{"start":6615.72,"end":6616.72,"text":"OK好"},{"start":6616.72,"end":6617.72,"text":"那我就說"},{"start":6617.72,"end":6619.72,"text":"我今天會講這個真的是"},{"start":6619.72,"end":6620.72,"text":"我們國家是義務役"},{"start":6620.72,"end":6621.72,"text":"不是志願役"},{"start":6621.72,"end":6622.72,"text":"所以很多人他是"},{"start":6622.72,"end":6624.72,"text":"必須服役務去當兵"},{"start":6624.72,"end":6625.72,"text":"那他這時候是軍人"},{"start":6625.72,"end":6627.72,"text":"他就可能會卡到這一條官"},{"start":6627.72,"end":6628.72,"text":"這條案子"},{"start":6628.72,"end":6630.72,"text":"所以不是說我跟你講"},{"start":6630.72,"end":6632.72,"text":"我比任何人都更痛恨叛國的人"},{"start":6632.72,"end":6634.72,"text":"我也不容許這種人存在"},{"start":6634.72,"end":6635.72,"text":"但是我也要求一件事"},{"start":6635.72,"end":6637.72,"text":"這麼重的罪法律明確性"},{"start":6637.72,"end":6638.72,"text":"一定要把它存在"},{"start":6638.72,"end":6639.72,"text":"合理"},{"start":6639.72,"end":6640.72,"text":"都是念法律的"},{"start":6640.72,"end":6641.72,"text":"是好謝謝"},{"start":6641.72,"end":6642.72,"text":"動田要研辦"},{"start":6642.72,"end":6644.72,"text":"但是不能靠想像來補漏洞"},{"start":6644.72,"end":6645.72,"text":"要關一個人五年"},{"start":6645.72,"end":6647.72,"text":"不可以連他基本會裁拿"},{"start":6647.72,"end":6648.72,"text":"他都不知道"},{"start":6648.72,"end":6650.72,"text":"上次副部長都講不出來"},{"start":6650.72,"end":6652.72,"text":"一個二等兵怎麼想得到"},{"start":6652.72,"end":6653.72,"text":"好謝謝憲哥"},{"start":6653.72,"end":6655.72,"text":"謝謝吳宗憲委員"},{"start":6655.72,"end":6659.72,"text":"那個很值得思考的一個想法"},{"start":6659.72,"end":6661.72,"text":"但是一般的去服役的人"},{"start":6661.72,"end":6663.72,"text":"也不會去笨到說"},{"start":6663.72,"end":6664.72,"text":"這個會不會叛國"},{"start":6664.72,"end":6665.72,"text":"還不知道"},{"start":6665.72,"end":6666.72,"text":"這個就比較難想像"},{"start":6666.72,"end":6669.72,"text":"那接下來請沈柏楊委員"},{"start":6669.72,"end":6671.72,"text":"沈柏楊委員"},{"start":6673.33,"end":6675.33,"text":"有來"},{"start":6675.33,"end":6676.33,"text":"所以要選其中的"},{"start":6676.33,"end":6677.33,"text":"也是很值得的"},{"start":6677.33,"end":6678.33,"text":"來請"},{"start":6681.65,"end":6683.65,"text":"都不用拿東西來就好"},{"start":6683.65,"end":6684.65,"text":"學父武居"},{"start":6684.65,"end":6686.65,"text":"就要開始上場了來"},{"start":6687.69,"end":6689.69,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":6689.69,"end":6691.69,"text":"有請法務部跟警政署"},{"start":6691.69,"end":6694.69,"text":"請法務部張司長還有阿克相"},{"start":6695.76,"end":6697.76,"text":"法務部還有警政署"},{"start":6697.76,"end":6698.76,"text":"還有警政署"},{"start":6698.76,"end":6701.76,"text":"警政署請這個正副大隊長好了"},{"start":6701.76,"end":6702.76,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6705.82,"end":6706.82,"text":"委員好"},{"start":6707.83,"end":6710.83,"text":"這個我想我先問法務部"},{"start":6710.83,"end":6712.83,"text":"就是說我今天想先問獨駕"},{"start":6712.83,"end":6715.83,"text":"就是說就是獨駕這件事情"},{"start":6715.83,"end":6717.83,"text":"現在越來越嚴重"},{"start":6717.83,"end":6718.83,"text":"所以他一定要遏止"},{"start":6718.83,"end":6720.83,"text":"我想說這大概是沒有什麼疑問"},{"start":6720.83,"end":6723.83,"text":"那在我們這一個要遏止犯罪的這個前提"},{"start":6723.83,"end":6724.83,"text":"有幾個"},{"start":6724.83,"end":6727.83,"text":"一個就是你的刑度一定要有一些威嚇力"},{"start":6727.83,"end":6730.83,"text":"我想這是修法最主要的重點"},{"start":6730.83,"end":6732.83,"text":"然後再來就是這一個在"},{"start":6732.83,"end":6733.83,"text":"尤其是不管是"},{"start":6733.83,"end":6735.83,"text":"你要抓得到他這件事情"},{"start":6735.83,"end":6737.83,"text":"其實要快而且要確實"},{"start":6737.83,"end":6739.83,"text":"因為如果說你刑度很重"},{"start":6739.83,"end":6741.83,"text":"結果抓不到他也嚇不到他"},{"start":6741.83,"end":6744.83,"text":"所以這個等一下就是說可能要請這個"},{"start":6744.83,"end":6746.83,"text":"警政署講一下就是說現在現實面"},{"start":6746.83,"end":6749.83,"text":"因為畢竟測這一個跟酒駕比起來"},{"start":6749.83,"end":6751.83,"text":"有可能有些現實上的困難"},{"start":6751.83,"end":6752.83,"text":"這個要怎麼精進"},{"start":6752.83,"end":6753.83,"text":"這是另外一回事"},{"start":6753.83,"end":6756.83,"text":"但我先針對刑度的幾個問題就是說"},{"start":6756.83,"end":6758.83,"text":"這一個沒有一定的答案"},{"start":6758.83,"end":6760.83,"text":"但是我現在發現就是"},{"start":6760.83,"end":6761.83,"text":"這一個"},{"start":6761.83,"end":6764.83,"text":"這個在POWERPLAN上面可以看到就是"},{"start":6764.83,"end":6767.83,"text":"現在到底是想像進河"},{"start":6767.83,"end":6769.83,"text":"還是說你直接把它論為一罪"},{"start":6769.83,"end":6771.83,"text":"我看到法院比較多"},{"start":6771.83,"end":6773.83,"text":"都是指法院比較多"},{"start":6773.83,"end":6776.83,"text":"就是把它當作實質上一罪"},{"start":6776.83,"end":6778.83,"text":"但是我發現在檢方這邊"},{"start":6778.83,"end":6781.83,"text":"我用下一張可能比較會比較清楚"},{"start":6781.83,"end":6783.83,"text":"就是左邊這邊看起來是"},{"start":6783.83,"end":6786.83,"text":"比較前期的見解都把它當作實質上一罪"},{"start":6786.83,"end":6788.83,"text":"那你看我這邊有抓新竹"},{"start":6788.83,"end":6790.83,"text":"雲林跟桃園地檢"},{"start":6790.83,"end":6793.83,"text":"都是用想像進河犯說要從一種處段"},{"start":6793.83,"end":6796.83,"text":"就是檢方在這一邊看起來好像"},{"start":6796.83,"end":6798.83,"text":"不是很一致"},{"start":6798.83,"end":6799.83,"text":"那不是很一致呢"},{"start":6799.83,"end":6801.83,"text":"我會覺得就是說"},{"start":6801.83,"end":6803.83,"text":"因為這個會影響到我們現在對於"},{"start":6803.83,"end":6805.83,"text":"酒駕、毒駕的一個認定方式"},{"start":6805.83,"end":6807.83,"text":"那我講白話文一點"},{"start":6807.83,"end":6808.83,"text":"因為我全國民眾也在看"},{"start":6808.83,"end":6810.83,"text":"我們也不要用太多法律的術語"},{"start":6810.83,"end":6815.83,"text":"就是說因為喝酒本身是合法的行為"},{"start":6815.83,"end":6816.83,"text":"就單純喝酒嘛對不對"},{"start":6816.83,"end":6818.83,"text":"這個很多人都會喝酒"},{"start":6818.83,"end":6820.83,"text":"那開車本身也是合法的"},{"start":6820.83,"end":6822.83,"text":"那喝酒駕開車不行嘛"},{"start":6822.83,"end":6823.83,"text":"喝酒駕開車不行嘛"},{"start":6823.83,"end":6824.83,"text":"喝酒駕開車不行"},{"start":6824.83,"end":6828.83,"text":"所以這個一般我們對於酒駕這件事情的評價"},{"start":6828.83,"end":6830.83,"text":"就是1853"},{"start":6830.83,"end":6832.83,"text":"它就是喝酒加上開車"},{"start":6832.83,"end":6834.83,"text":"酒測只要超過一定的這個"},{"start":6834.83,"end":6837.83,"text":"那但是毒駕有一個非常不一樣的地方是"},{"start":6837.83,"end":6839.83,"text":"吸毒本身就已經是犯罪了"},{"start":6839.83,"end":6842.83,"text":"所以呢吸毒駕開車也是犯罪"},{"start":6842.83,"end":6845.83,"text":"我們現在是把它跟酒駕等於是放在同一個"},{"start":6848.06,"end":6849.06,"text":"然後我們只是先"},{"start":6849.06,"end":6850.06,"text":"因為我們現在覺得這個很嚴重"},{"start":6850.06,"end":6851.06,"text":"我們要喝足"},{"start":6851.06,"end":6853.06,"text":"所以我們把刑度提高"},{"start":6853.06,"end":6857.06,"text":"但是因為吸毒本身它就是一個犯罪行為"},{"start":6857.06,"end":6859.06,"text":"那所以我們現在把吸毒加上酒駕"},{"start":6859.06,"end":6863.06,"text":"把它當作是一個獨立犯罪行為的時候"},{"start":6863.06,"end":6867.06,"text":"我們到底是認為它是單純的公共安全的侵害"},{"start":6867.06,"end":6870.06,"text":"還是它有公共安全以外的侵害"},{"start":6870.06,"end":6873.06,"text":"那這個會在認定上面會有差別啦"},{"start":6873.06,"end":6875.06,"text":"那我因為我不是很清楚檢方現在"},{"start":6875.06,"end":6878.06,"text":"到底去認定說它到底是同一法意"},{"start":6878.06,"end":6880.06,"text":"就是跟酒駕比較是同一法意"},{"start":6880.06,"end":6883.06,"text":"還是它是有不同的法意存在"},{"start":6883.06,"end":6885.06,"text":"所以特別說要想像進盒還是怎樣"},{"start":6885.06,"end":6887.06,"text":"所以我想說先確認一下"},{"start":6887.06,"end":6889.06,"text":"法務部對這件事情的立場"},{"start":6890.67,"end":6892.67,"text":"跟委員報告喔"},{"start":6892.67,"end":6894.67,"text":"適用毒品的行為"},{"start":6894.67,"end":6897.67,"text":"跟適用毒品後的這個毒駕行為"},{"start":6897.67,"end":6899.67,"text":"如果是毒駕的話當然就是用"},{"start":6899.67,"end":6901.67,"text":"就是1853"},{"start":6901.67,"end":6904.67,"text":"那針對它的前面的適用毒品行為"},{"start":6904.67,"end":6906.67,"text":"跟1853的這兩個行為"},{"start":6906.67,"end":6910.67,"text":"那當然要看它的那個犯罪的時間點"},{"start":6910.67,"end":6912.67,"text":"那如果說它犯罪時間點有個差距的話"},{"start":6912.67,"end":6913.67,"text":"那有可能是訴罪"},{"start":6913.67,"end":6917.67,"text":"但是這邊它的想像進盒指的是酒跟毒"},{"start":6917.67,"end":6918.67,"text":"同時都有的時候"},{"start":6918.67,"end":6920.67,"text":"就是酒駕跟毒駕混合的時候"},{"start":6920.67,"end":6923.67,"text":"那為什麼這時候有一些他們會用想像進盒"},{"start":6923.67,"end":6925.67,"text":"就是它的理由何在"},{"start":6927.43,"end":6929.43,"text":"這個毒酒併用的時候"},{"start":6929.43,"end":6932.43,"text":"這個食物上可能用想像進盒的時候"},{"start":6932.43,"end":6934.43,"text":"那有可能是因為"},{"start":6934.43,"end":6936.43,"text":"它的這個犯罪時間點非常接近"},{"start":6936.43,"end":6937.43,"text":"這個我不確定啦"},{"start":6937.43,"end":6939.43,"text":"因為那個委員局的這些案例"},{"start":6939.43,"end":6941.43,"text":"可能還要去看它針對那個"},{"start":6941.43,"end":6943.43,"text":"飲酒的時候跟適用毒品的時候"},{"start":6943.43,"end":6945.43,"text":"它的時間點是不是非常的相近"},{"start":6945.43,"end":6946.43,"text":"因為如果非常相近的話"},{"start":6946.43,"end":6948.43,"text":"那有可能在判斷上會認為說"},{"start":6948.43,"end":6951.43,"text":"它其實是屬於想像進盒的關係"},{"start":6951.43,"end":6953.43,"text":"那這個可能就回去確認一下"},{"start":6953.43,"end":6954.43,"text":"因為我們就發現"},{"start":6954.43,"end":6956.43,"text":"其實這個檢方這邊對這件事情"},{"start":6956.43,"end":6957.43,"text":"是有點不太一致"},{"start":6957.43,"end":6959.43,"text":"那法院的見解看起來都是用"},{"start":6959.43,"end":6961.43,"text":"就是說實質上一罪"},{"start":6961.43,"end":6962.43,"text":"實質上一罪"},{"start":6962.43,"end":6963.43,"text":"然後他們說從一中"},{"start":6963.43,"end":6964.43,"text":"這個當然也有點奇怪就是說"},{"start":6964.43,"end":6966.43,"text":"其實你如果實質上一罪的話"},{"start":6966.43,"end":6967.43,"text":"你也不用從一中"},{"start":6967.43,"end":6968.43,"text":"反正這是另外一件事情"},{"start":6968.43,"end":6970.43,"text":"但是我覺得這個在食物進點上面"},{"start":6970.43,"end":6971.43,"text":"可能要穩定"},{"start":6971.43,"end":6972.43,"text":"因為這個可能會影響到"},{"start":6972.43,"end":6974.43,"text":"因為我們對於這個的法醫認定方式"},{"start":6974.43,"end":6976.43,"text":"會進入逐條的時候"},{"start":6976.43,"end":6979.43,"text":"會影響到我們對於那些條文的行動認定"},{"start":6979.43,"end":6980.43,"text":"什麼等等之類的"},{"start":6980.43,"end":6982.43,"text":"我覺得這可能要注意一下"},{"start":6982.43,"end":6984.43,"text":"那另外還有一個小地方就是"},{"start":6984.43,"end":6986.43,"text":"因為我們現在要把酒駕跟獨駕"},{"start":6986.43,"end":6988.43,"text":"因為都定在同一個法條"},{"start":6988.43,"end":6989.43,"text":"那因為我說酒駕跟獨駕"},{"start":6989.43,"end":6991.43,"text":"它有一個本質上很大的不同"},{"start":6991.43,"end":6992.43,"text":"是因為毒品本身"},{"start":6992.43,"end":6994.43,"text":"是一個獨立的犯罪行為"},{"start":6994.43,"end":6997.43,"text":"那所以我現在在看國外的這個立法例"},{"start":6997.43,"end":7000.43,"text":"比如我先跳過這一個"},{"start":7000.43,"end":7002.43,"text":"比如說這是法國"},{"start":7002.43,"end":7003.43,"text":"那法國的做法是這樣"},{"start":7003.43,"end":7006.43,"text":"它的酒駕跟它的獨駕"},{"start":7006.43,"end":7008.43,"text":"它是它獨立出來"},{"start":7008.43,"end":7009.43,"text":"然後呢比如說"},{"start":7009.43,"end":7012.43,"text":"它今天在獨駕的這個過程當中"},{"start":7012.43,"end":7014.43,"text":"如果後來呢在事實認定上面"},{"start":7014.43,"end":7015.43,"text":"它又有酒"},{"start":7017.09,"end":7018.09,"text":"它把獨駕"},{"start":7018.09,"end":7020.09,"text":"因為獨駕它是一個獨立的條文"},{"start":7020.09,"end":7023.09,"text":"它就把酒當作加重室游"},{"start":7023.09,"end":7025.09,"text":"所以跟我們的有點不太"},{"start":7025.09,"end":7026.09,"text":"又有點不太一樣"},{"start":7026.09,"end":7027.09,"text":"我們是在行度上面做調整"},{"start":7027.09,"end":7030.09,"text":"它是把酒直接當作是一個加重室游"},{"start":7030.09,"end":7032.09,"text":"其實我覺得用這樣的一個認定方式"},{"start":7032.09,"end":7035.09,"text":"有可能會比較清除乾淨一點"},{"start":7035.09,"end":7036.09,"text":"而且這個在實務上"},{"start":7036.09,"end":7038.09,"text":"如果要做的話可能也會比較輕鬆"},{"start":7038.09,"end":7039.09,"text":"我覺得法務部可以思考看看"},{"start":7039.09,"end":7042.09,"text":"因為我在看法務部的那個回應的意見的時候"},{"start":7042.09,"end":7044.09,"text":"其實我覺得搞不好這樣子"},{"start":7044.09,"end":7046.09,"text":"會比較符合法務部的想法"},{"start":7046.09,"end":7048.09,"text":"所以這個我覺得可以思考一下"},{"start":7048.09,"end":7049.09,"text":"沒有說一定要採用"},{"start":7049.09,"end":7051.09,"text":"但是就是這是一種認定方式"},{"start":7051.09,"end":7052.09,"text":"好謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":7052.09,"end":7053.09,"text":"那接下來我現在"},{"start":7053.09,"end":7054.09,"text":"還有一點時間太好了"},{"start":7054.09,"end":7058.09,"text":"我想問一下現在的這個警察的這個實務"},{"start":7058.09,"end":7062.09,"text":"就是說因為第一個這個獨的這個檢測"},{"start":7062.09,"end":7065.09,"text":"當然也會有一些偽陽性什麼等等的問題"},{"start":7065.09,"end":7067.09,"text":"然後再加上它會有"},{"start":7067.09,"end":7069.09,"text":"它有時候有些它消退的快"},{"start":7069.09,"end":7071.09,"text":"所以就是現在在實務上面"},{"start":7071.09,"end":7074.09,"text":"就是要確保能夠抓得到這件事情"},{"start":7074.09,"end":7075.09,"text":"要怎麼能夠提高"},{"start":7075.09,"end":7076.09,"text":"那不然行度增加"},{"start":7076.09,"end":7078.09,"text":"跟這個沒有辦法搭配在一起"},{"start":7078.09,"end":7080.09,"text":"感謝委員關心這個議題"},{"start":7080.09,"end":7082.09,"text":"那委員想得很正確"},{"start":7082.09,"end":7084.09,"text":"你像猩猩的毒品都依托彌質"},{"start":7084.09,"end":7086.09,"text":"它因為半衰期非常快"},{"start":7086.09,"end":7089.09,"text":"它大概75分鐘就進入半衰期"},{"start":7089.09,"end":7092.09,"text":"那再來加倍的時間就除以二除以二"},{"start":7092.09,"end":7095.09,"text":"所以甚至說只要經過不到一天"},{"start":7095.09,"end":7097.09,"text":"尿裡面都檢驗不出來"},{"start":7097.09,"end":7101.09,"text":"所以說針對依托彌質這一類猩猩毒品"},{"start":7101.09,"end":7104.09,"text":"我們在我們的脫衣塊塞"},{"start":7104.09,"end":7106.09,"text":"在我們的2.0版的部分"},{"start":7106.09,"end":7109.09,"text":"我們從9月份開始會採購2.0版"},{"start":7109.09,"end":7113.09,"text":"把相關的脫衣塊塞的玉子都調降"},{"start":7113.09,"end":7116.09,"text":"那同時也是配合衛福部"},{"start":7116.09,"end":7119.09,"text":"將相關的尿檢玉子也同步調降"},{"start":7119.09,"end":7123.09,"text":"那希望就是說在第一線執法的現場"},{"start":7123.09,"end":7126.09,"text":"就可以立即判斷說它是否是毒駕"},{"start":7126.09,"end":7128.09,"text":"那在接續後面的尿液檢驗"},{"start":7128.09,"end":7130.09,"text":"讓這些意圖毒駕者"},{"start":7130.09,"end":7132.09,"text":"這個不會逃離我們"},{"start":7132.09,"end":7134.09,"text":"這是一個綜合判斷"},{"start":7134.09,"end":7136.09,"text":"因為我覺得就是說"},{"start":7136.09,"end":7139.09,"text":"畢竟現在毒駕變多了"},{"start":7139.09,"end":7141.09,"text":"那它的熱點在哪裡"},{"start":7141.09,"end":7142.09,"text":"可能這是第一個重要的"},{"start":7142.09,"end":7144.09,"text":"不然的話當然你要確實的"},{"start":7144.09,"end":7146.09,"text":"都能夠抓得到這一些"},{"start":7146.09,"end":7148.09,"text":"其實需要很大量的警力"},{"start":7148.09,"end":7149.09,"text":"你說酒駕要怎麼遏止"},{"start":7149.09,"end":7151.09,"text":"如果每一個路口都在領前"},{"start":7151.09,"end":7153.09,"text":"我想說他們都在酒測領前"},{"start":7153.09,"end":7155.09,"text":"說真的那其實可以很有效"},{"start":7155.09,"end":7157.09,"text":"那這警力是有限的"},{"start":7157.09,"end":7159.09,"text":"所以就是第一個熱點在哪裡"},{"start":7159.09,"end":7160.09,"text":"這個呢第一個可以考量"},{"start":7160.09,"end":7163.09,"text":"就是交通事故比較好發的一些地方"},{"start":7163.09,"end":7166.09,"text":"或者說比如說像市場或者學校"},{"start":7166.09,"end":7168.09,"text":"這種有一些使用者"},{"start":7168.09,"end":7170.09,"text":"是比較在容易受傷害的族群"},{"start":7170.09,"end":7172.09,"text":"比如說年長者或小孩"},{"start":7172.09,"end":7174.09,"text":"在那邊做比較多的加強"},{"start":7174.09,"end":7176.09,"text":"就是警力配置上"},{"start":7176.09,"end":7177.09,"text":"因為我覺得這個時候"},{"start":7177.09,"end":7178.09,"text":"我們不能讓第一線的警力癱瘓掉"},{"start":7178.09,"end":7179.09,"text":"我覺得這是重要的"},{"start":7179.09,"end":7180.09,"text":"那再搭配你剛剛講的"},{"start":7180.09,"end":7182.09,"text":"我覺得或許能夠比較做到這件事"},{"start":7182.09,"end":7184.09,"text":"那另外我再回到法務部"},{"start":7184.09,"end":7185.09,"text":"但是這可能來不及問"},{"start":7185.09,"end":7187.09,"text":"就是加重結果犯這一邊"},{"start":7187.09,"end":7189.09,"text":"因為我們現在要把出犯雷犯"},{"start":7189.09,"end":7190.09,"text":"把它分開"},{"start":7190.09,"end":7192.09,"text":"那我覺得這是一個好的方向"},{"start":7192.09,"end":7194.09,"text":"是因為其實酒駕"},{"start":7194.09,"end":7197.09,"text":"尤其之前酒駕很多都是雷犯的賀組力比較低"},{"start":7197.09,"end":7199.09,"text":"所以現在要把這個雷犯要把它提高"},{"start":7199.09,"end":7201.09,"text":"但加重結果犯裡面我可以看到"},{"start":7201.09,"end":7203.09,"text":"就是死亡的部分還是有"},{"start":7203.09,"end":7206.09,"text":"這一個出犯跟雷犯的那個差距"},{"start":7206.09,"end":7208.09,"text":"但是在致重傷的時候它是一樣的"},{"start":7208.09,"end":7210.09,"text":"就是致重傷都是三到十"},{"start":7210.09,"end":7212.09,"text":"所以當然就是說"},{"start":7212.09,"end":7215.09,"text":"我的想法是當然在這邊"},{"start":7215.09,"end":7217.09,"text":"可能你們在設計那個行"},{"start":7217.09,"end":7218.09,"text":"因為這邊太複雜了"},{"start":7218.09,"end":7221.09,"text":"所以導致那個行度要設計那個級距的時候"},{"start":7221.09,"end":7224.09,"text":"已經變得你這邊如果再往上會卡到上一個"},{"start":7224.09,"end":7225.09,"text":"這個我知道"},{"start":7225.09,"end":7228.09,"text":"但或許可能罰金的部分或什麼之類"},{"start":7228.09,"end":7229.09,"text":"這總是要有一個做法"},{"start":7229.09,"end":7230.09,"text":"因為要符合比例原則"},{"start":7230.09,"end":7233.09,"text":"所以這個可能等一下主調的時候思考一下"},{"start":7233.09,"end":7236.09,"text":"最後就是剛剛講到這一個"},{"start":7236.09,"end":7237.09,"text":"我們24條這個修正"},{"start":7237.09,"end":7239.09,"text":"主席不好意思 我就20秒"},{"start":7239.09,"end":7241.09,"text":"就是在逐生損害這件事情"},{"start":7241.09,"end":7244.09,"text":"當然我們在刑法上很多時候都是希望說"},{"start":7244.09,"end":7246.09,"text":"我們有一些具體認定的標準"},{"start":7246.09,"end":7248.09,"text":"有一個具體危險犯的認定"},{"start":7248.09,"end":7250.09,"text":"但是詳諜這件事情"},{"start":7250.09,"end":7253.09,"text":"或者說拍攝我們現在很多拍攝影片都要詳諜"},{"start":7253.09,"end":7255.09,"text":"這其實是一個很明確的行為"},{"start":7255.09,"end":7257.09,"text":"這個明確的行為一旦出現了之後"},{"start":7257.09,"end":7259.09,"text":"你說要再認定逐生損害"},{"start":7259.09,"end":7260.09,"text":"我覺得你這個逐生損害"},{"start":7260.09,"end":7262.09,"text":"你的認定方式到底是什麼"},{"start":7262.09,"end":7263.09,"text":"你如果把它當作危險犯的話"},{"start":7263.09,"end":7264.09,"text":"你要怎麼直接去認定"},{"start":7264.09,"end":7266.09,"text":"我還是覺得你們原本"},{"start":7266.09,"end":7269.09,"text":"就是反而是詳諜這個定義要清楚"},{"start":7269.09,"end":7271.09,"text":"就是說你今天比如說他們拍攝影片"},{"start":7271.09,"end":7272.09,"text":"就什麼叫做這個行為"},{"start":7272.09,"end":7275.09,"text":"這個行為一旦定義是清楚的"},{"start":7275.09,"end":7277.09,"text":"有沒有逐生損害就不是重點"},{"start":7277.09,"end":7279.09,"text":"如果你的行為定義不清楚"},{"start":7279.09,"end":7281.09,"text":"那你就需要逐生損害去扣"},{"start":7281.09,"end":7284.09,"text":"那我認為我們到時候把這一個行為的定義把它弄清楚"},{"start":7284.09,"end":7288.09,"text":"逐生損害是可以按照原版我認為不用擺在上面"},{"start":7288.09,"end":7290.09,"text":"好 那這個我就先問到這邊"},{"start":7290.09,"end":7291.09,"text":"因為時間到了 謝謝"},{"start":7291.09,"end":7292.09,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":7292.09,"end":7293.09,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":7293.02,"end":7295.02,"text":"好 謝謝沈柏楊委員"},{"start":7295.02,"end":7298.02,"text":"很專業 這期定義好辦到"},{"start":7298.02,"end":7303.02,"text":"來 接下來請王定宇委員來做詢答"},{"start":7311.65,"end":7312.65,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":7312.65,"end":7316.65,"text":"麻煩副部長還有我們秦次次助理次長"},{"start":7316.65,"end":7318.65,"text":"來 副部長 助理次長"},{"start":7320.15,"end":7321.15,"text":"黃委員好"},{"start":7321.15,"end":7322.15,"text":"早"},{"start":7323.48,"end":7324.48,"text":"那我先講一個題外話"},{"start":7324.48,"end":7327.48,"text":"其實我們這一個24條"},{"start":7327.48,"end":7333.48,"text":"拍攝影片向中共以及中共解放軍效忠的修法案"},{"start":7333.48,"end":7336.48,"text":"其實本席在一月份已經來這邊做過提案說明"},{"start":7336.48,"end":7339.48,"text":"那從一月份到現在一直無法處理 放到現在"},{"start":7339.48,"end":7345.48,"text":"剛才在討論有關逐生或者是造成軍事上的損害"},{"start":7345.48,"end":7347.48,"text":"坦白講包含陳永康委員"},{"start":7347.48,"end":7349.48,"text":"幫我們在場所有的國軍將領"},{"start":7351.05,"end":7353.05,"text":"誰不知道自己"},{"start":7353.58,"end":7355.58,"text":"向著五星旗向解放軍表達效忠"},{"start":7356.84,"end":7357.84,"text":"然後做不抵抗"},{"start":7359.03,"end":7361.03,"text":"這是違法的 這是對不起國家的"},{"start":7361.94,"end":7363.94,"text":"所以我贊成剛才沈柏楊委員所說的"},{"start":7363.94,"end":7364.94,"text":"把那個定義弄清楚"},{"start":7364.94,"end":7368.94,"text":"否則我們現在中共對於我們國軍的滲透"},{"start":7368.94,"end":7369.94,"text":"小型借貸"},{"start":7369.94,"end":7371.94,"text":"買你蝦皮帳號"},{"start":7371.94,"end":7373.94,"text":"它其實目的不在錢也不在帳號"},{"start":7373.94,"end":7376.94,"text":"它透過掌握你 你怕被長官知道"},{"start":7376.94,"end":7379.94,"text":"它就可以恐嚇你 叫你把文件拿出來"},{"start":7379.94,"end":7382.94,"text":"很多人很難理解說怎麼為了三萬塊出賣國家"},{"start":7382.94,"end":7384.94,"text":"怎麼為了五千塊錢成為共諜"},{"start":7384.94,"end":7385.94,"text":"其實在這裡"},{"start":7386.99,"end":7388.99,"text":"他知道自己做錯事情"},{"start":7388.99,"end":7389.99,"text":"怕被長官知道"},{"start":7389.99,"end":7392.99,"text":"就一步一步進到那個陷阱裡面"},{"start":7392.99,"end":7393.99,"text":"而不自拔"},{"start":7394.94,"end":7396.94,"text":"我們馬祖東引"},{"start":7397.54,"end":7398.54,"text":"一百多個人"},{"start":7400.22,"end":7403.22,"text":"如果我們國軍的軍官士官士兵"},{"start":7404.27,"end":7406.27,"text":"拍了向中共效忠的引帶"},{"start":7406.27,"end":7407.27,"text":"這個人"},{"start":7408.46,"end":7410.46,"text":"被中共掌握住了"},{"start":7411.36,"end":7412.36,"text":"我們不知道"},{"start":7413.2,"end":7414.2,"text":"當發生戰事的時候"},{"start":7414.2,"end":7416.2,"text":"他負責控制武器"},{"start":7416.2,"end":7418.2,"text":"他負責C2戰管指揮"},{"start":7419.33,"end":7422.33,"text":"那付出代價是其他奉公守法"},{"start":7422.33,"end":7423.33,"text":"盡忠職守的國軍"},{"start":7423.33,"end":7426.33,"text":"所以我相信副部長應該是支持院板"},{"start":7426.33,"end":7428.33,"text":"那個是院跟我們一起提出來的"},{"start":7428.33,"end":7430.33,"text":"就是說我們把它定義弄清楚"},{"start":7430.33,"end":7434.33,"text":"但如果你要用逐生損害才來罰的話"},{"start":7434.33,"end":7436.33,"text":"有時候損害完成國家已經沒了"},{"start":7437.25,"end":7438.25,"text":"應該要嚇阻他"},{"start":7438.25,"end":7440.25,"text":"而且透過這樣的嚇阻"},{"start":7440.25,"end":7442.25,"text":"可以阻卻他更進一步"},{"start":7442.25,"end":7444.25,"text":"往犯罪的更深層去走"},{"start":7444.25,"end":7445.25,"text":"這個是我一開始"},{"start":7445.25,"end":7447.25,"text":"我剛才聽國民黨委員"},{"start":7447.25,"end":7448.25,"text":"一直"},{"start":7448.69,"end":7449.69,"text":"認為說定義不清楚"},{"start":7450.87,"end":7452.87,"text":"國軍弟兄會不知道怎麼樣被罰"},{"start":7453.41,"end":7456.41,"text":"誰不知道像五星級你當國軍現役軍人"},{"start":7457.65,"end":7459.65,"text":"像五星級校中像解放軍校中"},{"start":7459.65,"end":7461.65,"text":"會不知道這是錯的"},{"start":7461.65,"end":7462.65,"text":"開什麼玩笑嘛"},{"start":7463.2,"end":7465.2,"text":"那我回來先請教"},{"start":7465.2,"end":7467.2,"text":"我請示事實上來原因就是"},{"start":7469.13,"end":7471.13,"text":"昨天中國發布"},{"start":7472.18,"end":7474.18,"text":"中國發布他要跟印尼海軍"},{"start":7474.18,"end":7477.18,"text":"在台灣的東部外海"},{"start":7477.18,"end":7478.18,"text":"其實台灣東部外海"},{"start":7478.18,"end":7479.18,"text":"或者叫西太平洋"},{"start":7479.18,"end":7481.18,"text":"加上菲律賓海的北側"},{"start":7481.18,"end":7482.18,"text":"其實範圍很大"},{"start":7482.18,"end":7485.18,"text":"那個大概就是北馬里亞納島"},{"start":7485.18,"end":7486.18,"text":"關島"},{"start":7486.18,"end":7487.18,"text":"跟我們台灣之間"},{"start":7487.18,"end":7489.18,"text":"夾雜的與納國啦"},{"start":7489.18,"end":7491.18,"text":"夾雜的很多戰略要地"},{"start":7491.18,"end":7493.18,"text":"美國的分散部署在這個位置"},{"start":7493.18,"end":7496.18,"text":"他說他要在台灣的東部海域"},{"start":7496.18,"end":7498.18,"text":"進行演習"},{"start":7498.18,"end":7499.18,"text":"而且是跟印尼"},{"start":7500.18,"end":7502.18,"text":"中國在那個水域進行演習"},{"start":7502.18,"end":7503.18,"text":"我們不意外"},{"start":7503.18,"end":7506.18,"text":"我們這次漢光42號的反封鎖啦"},{"start":7506.18,"end":7507.18,"text":"在運補"},{"start":7507.18,"end":7508.18,"text":"跨境運補"},{"start":7508.18,"end":7509.18,"text":"預算艦的模擬"},{"start":7509.18,"end":7511.18,"text":"大概都針對這個科目"},{"start":7511.18,"end":7512.18,"text":"可是因為他拉了印尼"},{"start":7513.15,"end":7514.15,"text":"就只有我們關注了"},{"start":7514.15,"end":7515.15,"text":"我請教國防部"},{"start":7515.15,"end":7516.15,"text":"這是什麼狀況"},{"start":7517.71,"end":7518.71,"text":"感謝委員關心"},{"start":7518.71,"end":7521.71,"text":"這件事情就情勢式的掌握"},{"start":7521.71,"end":7524.71,"text":"這艘船它是一個兩千多噸的巡防艦"},{"start":7524.71,"end":7525.71,"text":"它從北..."},{"start":7525.71,"end":7526.71,"text":"你想這艘船是印尼的"},{"start":7526.71,"end":7527.71,"text":"印尼的"},{"start":7527.83,"end":7529.83,"text":"它下來事實上"},{"start":7530.75,"end":7533.75,"text":"可能中共選擇它要操作的部分來公佈"},{"start":7533.75,"end":7536.75,"text":"事實上我們掌握到可以公佈的一個訊息"},{"start":7536.75,"end":7538.75,"text":"它從日本那邊下來之後"},{"start":7538.75,"end":7540.75,"text":"事實上不是光跟中共"},{"start":7540.75,"end":7543.75,"text":"預劃要做一個對域的操演"},{"start":7543.75,"end":7544.75,"text":"它事實上跟日本"},{"start":7544.75,"end":7545.75,"text":"後續跟美國"},{"start":7545.75,"end":7546.75,"text":"一路上"},{"start":7546.75,"end":7548.75,"text":"它都做了這樣的操演"},{"start":7548.75,"end":7549.75,"text":"這一艘船叫來嘛"},{"start":7549.75,"end":7551.75,"text":"是護衛艦兩千多噸級"},{"start":7551.75,"end":7552.75,"text":"所以你的講法"},{"start":7552.75,"end":7554.75,"text":"它從日本往下走"},{"start":7555.26,"end":7557.26,"text":"沿線碰到哪一國"},{"start":7557.26,"end":7559.26,"text":"就跟各國engagement互動一下"},{"start":7559.26,"end":7561.26,"text":"你們掌握狀況是這樣子"},{"start":7561.26,"end":7563.26,"text":"那它的位置在哪裡"},{"start":7563.26,"end":7565.26,"text":"它位置在台灣東面"},{"start":7565.26,"end":7567.26,"text":"事實上離我們的臨海臨界區都..."},{"start":7567.26,"end":7568.26,"text":"最遠到多遠"},{"start":7568.2,"end":7571.2,"text":"大概離我們的臨海有七八十里以上"},{"start":7571.2,"end":7573.2,"text":"七八十里以上"},{"start":7573.2,"end":7574.2,"text":"所以有相當距離"},{"start":7574.2,"end":7576.2,"text":"所以它正確的位置應該在西太平洋的位置"},{"start":7576.2,"end":7577.2,"text":"西太平洋的位置"},{"start":7577.2,"end":7578.2,"text":"並不是"},{"start":7578.2,"end":7581.2,"text":"中國喜歡形成心理動作"},{"start":7581.2,"end":7582.2,"text":"就說我們東部外海"},{"start":7582.2,"end":7584.2,"text":"這是在西太平洋的位置"},{"start":7584.2,"end":7587.2,"text":"因為如果印尼專程去跟中國的"},{"start":7587.2,"end":7589.2,"text":"那一艘中國派出來的"},{"start":7589.2,"end":7593.2,"text":"這個鴻河艦應該是2022年下水的"},{"start":7593.2,"end":7595.2,"text":"這個054D嘛"},{"start":7595.2,"end":7596.2,"text":"054大概四千噸級的"},{"start":7596.2,"end":7597.2,"text":"四千噸級的嘛"},{"start":7597.2,"end":7599.2,"text":"所以在那個位置"},{"start":7599.2,"end":7600.2,"text":"它是經過"},{"start":7600.2,"end":7601.2,"text":"如果是專程去我們就要注意了"},{"start":7601.2,"end":7604.2,"text":"因為形成印尼的位"},{"start":7604.2,"end":7606.2,"text":"印尼將來的角色到底是什麼"},{"start":7606.2,"end":7609.2,"text":"因為美軍或者我們的友盟"},{"start":7609.2,"end":7610.2,"text":"跟我們進行反封鎖"},{"start":7610.2,"end":7611.2,"text":"在這個位置"},{"start":7612.33,"end":7614.33,"text":"那印尼"},{"start":7614.54,"end":7616.54,"text":"理論上不會跟第七艦隊作對"},{"start":7616.54,"end":7618.54,"text":"跟它如果跟中國的"},{"start":7618.54,"end":7621.54,"text":"這個054D在那邊專程軍演的話"},{"start":7621.54,"end":7622.54,"text":"就值得我們注意"},{"start":7622.54,"end":7625.54,"text":"所以你剛才掌握到的狀況是"},{"start":7625.54,"end":7627.54,"text":"印尼這艘艦是從日本往下走"},{"start":7627.54,"end":7629.54,"text":"那沿線有跟哪些國家進行"},{"start":7629.54,"end":7631.54,"text":"所謂的接觸性的互動"},{"start":7631.54,"end":7632.54,"text":"你說美國有"},{"start":7632.54,"end":7634.54,"text":"我們知道的美國日本"},{"start":7634.54,"end":7636.54,"text":"美國日本然後中國"},{"start":7636.54,"end":7639.54,"text":"然後接下來它就返航回到印尼去了"},{"start":7639.54,"end":7641.54,"text":"一路上它還有它的規劃"},{"start":7641.54,"end":7642.54,"text":"還會到其他地方"},{"start":7642.54,"end":7644.54,"text":"那這一艘護衛艦"},{"start":7644.54,"end":7646.54,"text":"在每個地方的"},{"start":7646.54,"end":7648.54,"text":"跟各國的軍艦的接觸"},{"start":7648.54,"end":7651.54,"text":"他們印尼的軍方或者國防部"},{"start":7651.54,"end":7652.54,"text":"有沒有公布"},{"start":7653.89,"end":7654.89,"text":"印尼沒有正式公布"},{"start":7654.89,"end":7655.89,"text":"它都沒有公布"},{"start":7656.47,"end":7657.47,"text":"所以目前為止"},{"start":7657.47,"end":7660.47,"text":"這一個來跟紅和艦的接觸"},{"start":7660.47,"end":7662.47,"text":"是中國片面宣布出來的"},{"start":7662.47,"end":7665.47,"text":"而且講得好像他們兩個專程在那邊軍演一樣"},{"start":7666.66,"end":7668.66,"text":"那我請教國防部跟情勢事"},{"start":7670.07,"end":7672.07,"text":"你們認為他們這一個動作"},{"start":7672.07,"end":7674.07,"text":"在軍事上對我們有沒有影響"},{"start":7675.22,"end":7677.22,"text":"這應該從兩個層面來說"},{"start":7677.22,"end":7679.22,"text":"如果直接回答委員您的問題"},{"start":7679.22,"end":7682.22,"text":"在軍事上對台灣沒有直接影響"},{"start":7682.22,"end":7683.22,"text":"沒有直接影響"},{"start":7683.22,"end":7686.22,"text":"它的敘事衍生的效應可能會有人有一些"},{"start":7686.22,"end":7688.22,"text":"有地緣政治上的影響"},{"start":7688.22,"end":7689.22,"text":"有地緣政治上的意義"},{"start":7689.22,"end":7691.22,"text":"但是軍事的影響並不直接"},{"start":7691.22,"end":7692.22,"text":"並沒有直接影響"},{"start":7692.22,"end":7694.22,"text":"那這敘事上的影響"},{"start":7694.22,"end":7696.22,"text":"就情勢事或國防部目前"},{"start":7696.95,"end":7697.95,"text":"我們要做"},{"start":7697.95,"end":7698.95,"text":"其實揭露是一個方式"},{"start":7698.95,"end":7699.95,"text":"像你剛才揭露很好"},{"start":7699.95,"end":7701.95,"text":"透明它就一路下來"},{"start":7701.95,"end":7703.95,"text":"經過遇到誰就跟誰互動一下"},{"start":7703.95,"end":7705.95,"text":"並不是專程跟共軍"},{"start":7705.95,"end":7706.95,"text":"跟日本海自"},{"start":7706.95,"end":7708.95,"text":"跟美國也有"},{"start":7708.95,"end":7711.95,"text":"跟美國是什麼樣的船艦進行互動"},{"start":7711.95,"end":7713.95,"text":"這個相關的細節我們可以是"},{"start":7713.95,"end":7715.95,"text":"所以都有掌握"},{"start":7715.95,"end":7716.95,"text":"那就這件事情"},{"start":7716.95,"end":7718.95,"text":"我們跟印尼方面有沒有互動"},{"start":7720.53,"end":7722.53,"text":"呃"},{"start":7721.83,"end":7723.83,"text":"不方便講我遵守"},{"start":7723.83,"end":7724.83,"text":"OK"},{"start":7724.83,"end":7728.83,"text":"那我們跟美方有沒有跟我們進行相關的情資的互動"},{"start":7728.83,"end":7729.83,"text":"也是這都有相關的來源"},{"start":7729.83,"end":7730.83,"text":"我們可以"},{"start":7730.83,"end":7733.83,"text":"OK 跟美方跟印尼都有相關的消息來源"},{"start":7733.83,"end":7734.83,"text":"好 那我請"},{"start":7734.83,"end":7736.83,"text":"接下來那個情事事先請回"},{"start":7736.83,"end":7737.83,"text":"我現在請教一下"},{"start":7738.84,"end":7740.84,"text":"那個國防部"},{"start":7740.84,"end":7742.84,"text":"我們一直在推動"},{"start":7742.84,"end":7745.84,"text":"其實我原來推動的並不是全面的軍事院校"},{"start":7745.84,"end":7750.84,"text":"因為陸海空軍大學有它軍事學校的規格"},{"start":7750.84,"end":7752.84,"text":"我本來推動是國防大學"},{"start":7752.88,"end":7756.88,"text":"我們在不影響現任的將領職缺以外"},{"start":7756.88,"end":7759.88,"text":"增設一個文職的副校長"},{"start":7759.88,"end":7761.88,"text":"那這文職副校長負責學術"},{"start":7761.88,"end":7767.88,"text":"以及校內文職人員教師的相關的協調管理"},{"start":7767.88,"end":7770.88,"text":"那這個在西點啊Virginia各校都有"},{"start":7771.74,"end":7772.74,"text":"那當時國軍也樂見"},{"start":7772.74,"end":7775.74,"text":"因為第一個我們不要影響現有國軍的編制"},{"start":7775.74,"end":7778.74,"text":"那在國防大學裡面有國管院"},{"start":7778.74,"end":7781.74,"text":"有相關的不管是政院或者法律相關的"},{"start":7781.74,"end":7783.74,"text":"我們有一個文職副校長"},{"start":7783.74,"end":7786.74,"text":"對於國防大學整個職的提升"},{"start":7786.74,"end":7787.74,"text":"學術部分的強化"},{"start":7787.74,"end":7792.74,"text":"我們希望每一個國軍軍官訓練出來都是文武雙全"},{"start":7792.74,"end":7794.74,"text":"當時我得到消息你們樂見"},{"start":7794.74,"end":7796.74,"text":"後來我們在7月份"},{"start":7796.74,"end":7798.74,"text":"在立法院這種無限延會的長度下"},{"start":7798.74,"end":7800.74,"text":"我們7月份反而要審查"},{"start":7800.74,"end":7802.74,"text":"那我看媒體報導消息是"},{"start":7802.74,"end":7805.74,"text":"國防部呢在6月17行政公告"},{"start":7805.74,"end":7808.74,"text":"你們要把軍事教育條例第八條修正"},{"start":7808.74,"end":7810.74,"text":"所以叫我們等你們一下說"},{"start":7810.74,"end":7815.74,"text":"7月份會來進行相關的修法"},{"start":7815.74,"end":7817.74,"text":"那我說好OK我提案我可以等"},{"start":7817.74,"end":7820.74,"text":"等你們這個布板的方案出來"},{"start":7820.74,"end":7822.74,"text":"但現在已經到8月份了"},{"start":7822.74,"end":7824.74,"text":"現在進度到底到哪裡了"},{"start":7825.51,"end":7827.51,"text":"因為上次委員交代完之後"},{"start":7827.51,"end":7829.51,"text":"其實部長回去就做了"},{"start":7829.51,"end":7831.51,"text":"請我們做了相關的研議"},{"start":7831.51,"end":7835.51,"text":"那確實也認為說有關軍事院下副校長"},{"start":7835.51,"end":7837.51,"text":"就做了兩個人"},{"start":7837.51,"end":7840.51,"text":"那一個部分是有關軍事院下的副校長"},{"start":7840.51,"end":7842.51,"text":"專責他軍事教育"},{"start":7842.51,"end":7845.51,"text":"對我知道那另外一個是學術的文職的副校長嗎"},{"start":7845.51,"end":7849.51,"text":"完全就是以大學教育能夠提升軍校學生的素質為主"},{"start":7849.51,"end":7851.51,"text":"那有關相關的進度"},{"start":7851.51,"end":7853.51,"text":"對那個參謀可以上來幫忙"},{"start":7853.51,"end":7854.51,"text":"我現在是問進度啦"},{"start":7854.51,"end":7856.51,"text":"因為本來我們7月份就要"},{"start":7856.51,"end":7857.51,"text":"因為這個沒有人反對"},{"start":7857.51,"end":7859.51,"text":"我看起來各黨派也都沒有人反對"},{"start":7859.51,"end":7860.51,"text":"應該修法通過"},{"start":7860.51,"end":7862.51,"text":"我們增設一個文職副校長"},{"start":7862.51,"end":7864.51,"text":"對國防大學是個好事情嘛"},{"start":7864.51,"end":7866.51,"text":"那後來說要等你們布板的"},{"start":7866.51,"end":7867.51,"text":"那等到現在8月中了耶"},{"start":7867.51,"end":7869.51,"text":"你們現在到底進度怎麼樣"},{"start":7869.51,"end":7871.51,"text":"是包委員那個有關於相關的進度"},{"start":7871.51,"end":7877.51,"text":"我們是依照這個相關的這些規則的審議跟承報"},{"start":7877.51,"end":7881.51,"text":"我們會我們已經報到行政院的法規會"},{"start":7881.51,"end":7885.51,"text":"我們來做一個這個程序上的實質的審查這樣"},{"start":7885.51,"end":7887.51,"text":"你們的版本跟我的版本大概差異就是"},{"start":7887.51,"end":7889.51,"text":"我是在國防大學嘛"},{"start":7889.51,"end":7891.51,"text":"你們是涵蓋到三軍的院校嘛"},{"start":7891.51,"end":7892.51,"text":"是"},{"start":7892.51,"end":7893.51,"text":"差異在這裡而已"},{"start":7893.51,"end":7894.51,"text":"是"},{"start":7894.51,"end":7897.51,"text":"那你們現在報到院裡面還在停在那邊停很久了耶"},{"start":7897.51,"end":7902.51,"text":"是我們一直在持續的這個跟院方來做這個溝通"},{"start":7902.51,"end":7904.51,"text":"能夠盡快的講這個法規"},{"start":7904.51,"end":7905.51,"text":"因為"},{"start":7906.71,"end":7908.71,"text":"這個案子其實是有共識的"},{"start":7908.71,"end":7909.71,"text":"你們的"},{"start":7909.71,"end":7912.71,"text":"正確來講你們的版本有涵蓋我的版本"},{"start":7912.71,"end":7915.71,"text":"所以我的版本通過並不會跟你有所和格嘛"},{"start":7915.71,"end":7916.71,"text":"幾乎是一樣嘛"},{"start":7917.97,"end":7921.97,"text":"那與其在那邊等能不能就我們提案的版本進行"},{"start":7921.97,"end":7924.97,"text":"修正符合部裡面的要求讓他通過"},{"start":7924.97,"end":7926.97,"text":"還是你們現在一定要等到院裡面送出來"},{"start":7926.97,"end":7927.97,"text":"那他都不送"},{"start":7927.97,"end":7929.97,"text":"這個案子就一直沒辦法處理啦"},{"start":7929.97,"end":7931.97,"text":"我們還是希望能夠依照這個"},{"start":7931.97,"end":7936.97,"text":"因為過去這幾年我們國防大學軍事院校確實有發生過一些"},{"start":7937.85,"end":7939.85,"text":"這個文職人員就是文職的老師"},{"start":7941.14,"end":7944.14,"text":"跟軍事管理之間一些大大小小的摩擦"},{"start":7944.14,"end":7946.14,"text":"我相信那個中部部長你也知道"},{"start":7946.14,"end":7948.14,"text":"那那個摩擦是沒必要的"},{"start":7948.9,"end":7950.9,"text":"那我們到底適用大學法"},{"start":7950.9,"end":7951.9,"text":"我們也適用軍事院校"},{"start":7951.9,"end":7954.9,"text":"其他是我們軍事院校有它的特殊性"},{"start":7954.9,"end":7958.9,"text":"所以現在你們如果不能吹院板快一點"},{"start":7958.9,"end":7960.9,"text":"那我們這個版本在那邊一直等"},{"start":7960.9,"end":7961.9,"text":"這樣遙遙無期"},{"start":7962.75,"end":7963.75,"text":"不好啦"},{"start":7963.75,"end":7968.75,"text":"是那個會後我們在將最新狀況完整的了解之後再跟委員做報告"},{"start":7968.75,"end":7969.75,"text":"所以你們現在沒有完整了解"},{"start":7969.75,"end":7970.75,"text":"不是"},{"start":7970.75,"end":7972.75,"text":"就是我剛剛目前掌握的進度是這樣"},{"start":7972.75,"end":7973.75,"text":"已經多等快兩個月了耶"},{"start":7973.75,"end":7974.75,"text":"是是是"},{"start":7974.75,"end":7975.75,"text":"617到現在"},{"start":7977.25,"end":7978.25,"text":"進度不要這樣一拖再拖啦"},{"start":7978.25,"end":7979.25,"text":"這樣不好"},{"start":7979.25,"end":7980.25,"text":"是"},{"start":7980.25,"end":7981.25,"text":"好那個主席站起來了喔"},{"start":7981.25,"end":7983.25,"text":"我最後一點點時間啦"},{"start":7985.21,"end":7987.21,"text":"又看到一個小艇跑進來"},{"start":7987.21,"end":7989.21,"text":"就是說我先請教中部部長"},{"start":7989.21,"end":7991.21,"text":"你以前在陸軍司令嘛"},{"start":7991.21,"end":7992.21,"text":"那現在就是說"},{"start":7993.87,"end":7995.87,"text":"我們看到這一次"},{"start":7996.03,"end":7997.03,"text":"這一個動力橡皮艇"},{"start":7997.03,"end":7999.03,"text":"上面有三件救生衣"},{"start":7999.03,"end":8002.03,"text":"可是我們隔了幾天逮捕只抓到兩個人"},{"start":8002.03,"end":8005.03,"text":"那這兩個人登岸之後很有意思"},{"start":8005.03,"end":8008.03,"text":"徒步走了幾十公里往桃園去"},{"start":8009.02,"end":8012.02,"text":"那在漢光演習前夕發生這個事情"},{"start":8013.73,"end":8015.73,"text":"就軍事上的意義來看"},{"start":8015.73,"end":8017.73,"text":"這些突擊艇或者小艇快艇"},{"start":8017.73,"end":8021.73,"text":"在我們套上我們可登陸的海灘水域"},{"start":8021.73,"end":8023.73,"text":"從2024年到現在"},{"start":8023.73,"end":8025.73,"text":"如果再加上金門馬祖其實會更多"},{"start":8025.73,"end":8031.73,"text":"發生了十次左右這種單人或雙人的小艇"},{"start":8031.73,"end":8033.73,"text":"來到我們的水域"},{"start":8033.73,"end":8035.73,"text":"我不認為這單純只有海巡署的事情"},{"start":8035.73,"end":8037.73,"text":"我們淡水河口淡水大營"},{"start":8037.73,"end":8040.73,"text":"那個負責我們衛須首都啊"},{"start":8042.34,"end":8045.34,"text":"台中港那個其實影響到行政卸載"},{"start":8045.34,"end":8047.34,"text":"也是反侵略很重要的部分"},{"start":8047.65,"end":8048.65,"text":"你們的判斷"},{"start":8049.3,"end":8052.3,"text":"這些小艇這些登陸"},{"start":8052.3,"end":8054.3,"text":"在軍事上他們有什麼意圖"},{"start":8054.3,"end":8057.3,"text":"然後你們有什麼樣的那個精進的做法"},{"start":8057.86,"end":8059.86,"text":"第一個部分跟委員回答是"},{"start":8059.86,"end":8062.86,"text":"有關這個淡水河確實是敵人滲透特工突襲"},{"start":8062.86,"end":8065.86,"text":"非常重要的一個一個途徑"},{"start":8065.86,"end":8067.86,"text":"那有這樣的一個中國小艇入侵"},{"start":8067.86,"end":8070.86,"text":"就軍事上的這個研判來說"},{"start":8070.86,"end":8073.86,"text":"我們必須要非常謹慎的去檢討就是說"},{"start":8073.86,"end":8076.86,"text":"利用小艇來滲透特工突襲"},{"start":8076.86,"end":8079.86,"text":"它的太陽以及它可能也在試探我們的一個"},{"start":8079.86,"end":8082.86,"text":"反應的一個一個能力以及我們"},{"start":8082.86,"end":8084.86,"text":"有關情緘真的這個作為"},{"start":8084.86,"end":8086.86,"text":"那這個部分我們會跟海巡署"},{"start":8086.86,"end":8088.86,"text":"在密切的做一個協調聯絡"},{"start":8088.86,"end":8090.86,"text":"那第二個部分就是說他從登陸之後再"},{"start":8090.86,"end":8092.86,"text":"到紅色海灘去做一個踏勘"},{"start":8092.86,"end":8094.86,"text":"所以我們從這邊去檢討"},{"start":8094.86,"end":8097.86,"text":"你們認為他們有在踏勘紅色海灘"},{"start":8097.86,"end":8099.86,"text":"對因為這個部分可能就是說"},{"start":8099.86,"end":8104.86,"text":"因為也必須要經過正式的一個法律的詢問了解"},{"start":8104.86,"end":8108.86,"text":"這兩位據說有對中國的海警或者武警的背景"},{"start":8108.86,"end":8110.86,"text":"確實海警跟武警在站直"},{"start":8110.86,"end":8112.86,"text":"那是他的一個武裝"},{"start":8112.86,"end":8113.86,"text":"所以他們有這個背景"},{"start":8113.86,"end":8115.86,"text":"那時候我們也不排除他到紅色海灘的時候"},{"start":8115.86,"end":8121.86,"text":"是實際踏勘他們如果後續真正做大規模的正規飛車登陸的時候"},{"start":8121.86,"end":8124.86,"text":"他一路往桃園會經過很多要地嘛"},{"start":8124.86,"end":8126.86,"text":"林口台地啊一直往下走到觀音"},{"start":8126.86,"end":8128.86,"text":"這個其實都是重要的登陸點"},{"start":8128.86,"end":8133.86,"text":"對確實桃園的這個保斗座跟海湖海灘確實是敵人"},{"start":8133.86,"end":8134.86,"text":"正規登陸最主要的一個"},{"start":8134.86,"end":8136.86,"text":"所以這兩位有海警武警背景"},{"start":8136.86,"end":8138.86,"text":"他們進行紅色海灘的踏勘"},{"start":8138.86,"end":8139.86,"text":"對基本上"},{"start":8139.86,"end":8141.86,"text":"那他們是三個還兩個現在只抓到兩個"},{"start":8142.86,"end":8145.86,"text":"後續我們要掌握看看後續有關機"},{"start":8145.86,"end":8147.86,"text":"就不要認為這只是海巡"},{"start":8147.86,"end":8149.86,"text":"海巡坦白講預算過得太慢"},{"start":8149.86,"end":8151.86,"text":"他們的行政系統確實有漏洞"},{"start":8151.86,"end":8154.86,"text":"空中的巡視的力量不足"},{"start":8154.86,"end":8157.86,"text":"我認為這個是要把它視為我們國防整體體系的一環"},{"start":8157.86,"end":8159.86,"text":"該補上漏洞要補上漏洞"},{"start":8159.86,"end":8161.86,"text":"否則小部隊突襲"},{"start":8163.01,"end":8165.01,"text":"在面對第一級的時候"},{"start":8165.01,"end":8167.01,"text":"那個可能是配合在台灣的第五重隊"},{"start":8167.01,"end":8170.01,"text":"是我們國軍遇到最困難的"},{"start":8171.43,"end":8174.43,"text":"所以有關這個突擊的部分"},{"start":8174.43,"end":8175.43,"text":"我們未來會繼續追蹤"},{"start":8175.43,"end":8176.43,"text":"好 謝謝副部長"},{"start":8178.53,"end":8180.53,"text":"好 謝謝黃定宇委員"},{"start":8180.53,"end":8182.53,"text":"來 接下來請許宇蓁"},{"start":8182.53,"end":8184.53,"text":"許宇蓁委員不在"},{"start":8184.53,"end":8186.53,"text":"許宇蓁 許宇蓁"},{"start":8186.53,"end":8189.53,"text":"還有張雅玲委員來做詢答"},{"start":8199.98,"end":8200.98,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":8200.98,"end":8201.98,"text":"我們要求"},{"start":8201.98,"end":8204.98,"text":"我們先請這個國防部跟內政部"},{"start":8204.98,"end":8206.98,"text":"國防部副部長"},{"start":8208.05,"end":8209.05,"text":"內政部"},{"start":8211.32,"end":8212.32,"text":"張委員好"},{"start":8212.32,"end":8213.32,"text":"好 你好"},{"start":8213.32,"end":8215.32,"text":"我想跟您討論有關於這個"},{"start":8215.32,"end":8218.32,"text":"陳正任性的這一次的演習的一個細節"},{"start":8218.32,"end":8221.32,"text":"就是說這次國家級警報發送出去裡面"},{"start":8221.32,"end":8223.32,"text":"簡訊裡面有一個避難指引的網址"},{"start":8223.32,"end":8224.32,"text":"那民眾點進去之後"},{"start":8224.32,"end":8227.32,"text":"就可以查詢到附近的一個防空避難的一個處所"},{"start":8227.32,"end":8229.32,"text":"那我知道政府其實也有提醒民眾說"},{"start":8229.32,"end":8232.32,"text":"你應該要預先去查住家工作地點"},{"start":8232.32,"end":8234.32,"text":"附近的一個防空避難空間"},{"start":8235.2,"end":8237.2,"text":"那這個部分我當然覺得這個提醒是非常好"},{"start":8237.2,"end":8239.2,"text":"但是我覺得我們今天在演習的狀況"},{"start":8239.2,"end":8240.2,"text":"就要考慮到一個"},{"start":8240.2,"end":8243.2,"text":"是人們如果不是在他熟悉的地方呢"},{"start":8243.2,"end":8246.2,"text":"例如說我可能剛好在這個警報發生的時候"},{"start":8246.2,"end":8247.2,"text":"我剛好出差"},{"start":8247.2,"end":8249.2,"text":"我可能剛好帶小孩出遊"},{"start":8249.2,"end":8252.2,"text":"那這樣子的話我們其實不會知道說"},{"start":8252.2,"end":8255.2,"text":"我現在最近的避難處所到底在哪裡"},{"start":8255.2,"end":8256.2,"text":"可是問題來囉"},{"start":8256.2,"end":8259.2,"text":"如果現在基地台受損"},{"start":8259.2,"end":8260.2,"text":"網路中斷的話"},{"start":8261.05,"end":8264.05,"text":"或是通訊狀況比這次的降速還要嚴重的話"},{"start":8264.05,"end":8266.05,"text":"那我到底該怎麼辦"},{"start":8266.05,"end":8268.05,"text":"我覺得這是一個非常實際的問題"},{"start":8268.05,"end":8270.05,"text":"那我們辦公室實際測試的時候"},{"start":8270.05,"end":8272.05,"text":"發現把手機網路關掉"},{"start":8272.05,"end":8274.05,"text":"有人的手機因為之前可能開過頁面"},{"start":8274.05,"end":8275.05,"text":"就可以看到部分內容"},{"start":8275.05,"end":8277.05,"text":"可是如果有些人是沒有"},{"start":8278.1,"end":8282.1,"text":"可是有些人是直接顯示沒有這個訊息的"},{"start":8282.1,"end":8284.1,"text":"請他確認網路的狀態"},{"start":8284.1,"end":8288.1,"text":"那我想如果說今天我剛剛講的"},{"start":8288.1,"end":8291.1,"text":"我們出差到了不同的地方的時候"},{"start":8291.1,"end":8294.1,"text":"現在我賴以為生的就是"},{"start":8295.51,"end":8297.51,"text":"政府提供給我這個資訊"},{"start":8297.51,"end":8298.51,"text":"那我到底該怎麼辦"},{"start":8298.51,"end":8300.51,"text":"我到底該去哪裡避難呢"},{"start":8301.18,"end":8302.18,"text":"那請簽動署"},{"start":8302.95,"end":8304.95,"text":"委員好我是權動署副署長兼執行長"},{"start":8304.95,"end":8305.95,"text":"跟您做報告"},{"start":8305.95,"end":8308.95,"text":"就是其實我們在不管是記者會"},{"start":8308.95,"end":8310.95,"text":"或是相關的電視廣播都有宣導"},{"start":8310.95,"end":8314.95,"text":"就是我們是希望大家先提前建立相關的這個備援機制"},{"start":8314.95,"end":8317.95,"text":"那包括您剛才提的這個地圖的部分"},{"start":8317.95,"end":8322.95,"text":"在網路在不同不是在住家附近或是習慣的地方的時候呢"},{"start":8322.95,"end":8326.95,"text":"其實我們是有提醒民眾要建立要下載離線"},{"start":8328.33,"end":8331.33,"text":"消防房在壹點通裡面是有個離線地圖的"},{"start":8331.33,"end":8333.33,"text":"那到時候就可以拿來做運用"},{"start":8333.33,"end":8336.33,"text":"那看到底是在哪個地方可以去做一些搜尋"},{"start":8336.33,"end":8340.33,"text":"那我想問的是說因為消防壹點通現在多少人下載"},{"start":8340.96,"end":8341.96,"text":"呃這是"},{"start":8341.96,"end":8343.96,"text":"那我可能要問一下"},{"start":8343.96,"end":8345.96,"text":"如果說我們今天要告訴民眾說"},{"start":8345.96,"end":8347.96,"text":"今天因為你現在提供給我的簡訊上面"},{"start":8347.96,"end":8349.96,"text":"這一個資訊其實是我沒有網路"},{"start":8349.96,"end":8351.96,"text":"或是網路狀況不是很理想的時候"},{"start":8351.96,"end":8354.96,"text":"我其實是沒有辦法知道我現在到底該去哪裡防空避難嘛"},{"start":8354.96,"end":8357.96,"text":"那如果我們今天說消防壹點通是很重要的一個關鍵"},{"start":8357.96,"end":8358.96,"text":"那到底多少人下載"},{"start":8358.96,"end":8360.96,"text":"每個人都可以使用到這件事情嗎"},{"start":8360.96,"end":8362.96,"text":"如果在那個此時此刻我最需要就是說"},{"start":8362.96,"end":8365.96,"text":"我到底怎麼樣可以知道我到哪裡去避難嘛"},{"start":8365.96,"end":8366.96,"text":"對不對"},{"start":8366.96,"end":8370.96,"text":"好所以如果說今天消防壹點通是可以做離線地圖的話"},{"start":8370.96,"end":8375.96,"text":"那你們的避難指引不就是應該給大家消防壹點通的連結嗎"},{"start":8375.96,"end":8376.96,"text":"或是什麼東西嗎"},{"start":8376.96,"end":8381.96,"text":"包括委員因為其實我們在之前發布的這個台灣全民安全指引裡面"},{"start":8381.96,"end":8383.96,"text":"也有相關的這個網站的連結"},{"start":8383.96,"end":8384.96,"text":"那我們在記者會裡面"},{"start":8384.96,"end":8387.96,"text":"包括行政院記者會還有國防部的記者會"},{"start":8387.96,"end":8389.96,"text":"我們也都有做宣導"},{"start":8389.96,"end":8391.96,"text":"然後另外呢就是我們其實我們"},{"start":8391.96,"end":8395.96,"text":"呃不好意思喔我打斷你一下就是說宣導我當然都知道啦"},{"start":8395.96,"end":8398.96,"text":"但是我們也都知道說就是當然大家在一個"},{"start":8398.96,"end":8403.96,"text":"呃做事前準備的狀況之下一定都是可以配合"},{"start":8403.96,"end":8405.96,"text":"好但是我們現在提供的這個"},{"start":8405.96,"end":8409.96,"text":"我現在問題是在這個避難指引其實是沒有辦法使用的嘛"},{"start":8410.97,"end":8413.97,"text":"呃就是如果有事先下載離線地圖是可以使用的"},{"start":8413.97,"end":8416.97,"text":"那委員的指導我們會後續跟內政部一起做推廣"},{"start":8416.97,"end":8417.97,"text":"我覺得我今天在跟你討論的是說"},{"start":8417.97,"end":8420.97,"text":"如果我今天不是在我常去的地點嗎"},{"start":8420.97,"end":8421.97,"text":"因為我們不可"},{"start":8421.97,"end":8423.97,"text":"因為我們一定是在我自己住家或是我自己辦公室"},{"start":8423.97,"end":8425.97,"text":"我自己常去到小孩的學校附近"},{"start":8425.97,"end":8426.97,"text":"我們可能都會去做這些事情嘛"},{"start":8426.97,"end":8427.97,"text":"對"},{"start":8427.97,"end":8428.97,"text":"可是如果今天我臨時出差了呢"},{"start":8428.97,"end":8430.97,"text":"我臨時帶小孩出去玩"},{"start":8430.97,"end":8431.97,"text":"在這個時候遇到這種狀況的時候"},{"start":8431.97,"end":8437.97,"text":"我們要處理的是幫助民眾在無時無刻都可以幫助他避難吧"},{"start":8437.97,"end":8440.97,"text":"這才是我們做演習最重要的目標嘛"},{"start":8440.97,"end":8441.97,"text":"所以我希望你們可以去檢討"},{"start":8441.97,"end":8445.97,"text":"你們現在給這個指引其實是沒有辦法達到我們"},{"start":8445.97,"end":8449.97,"text":"確保民眾在無時無刻都可以避難吧"},{"start":8449.97,"end":8450.97,"text":"對吧"},{"start":8451.12,"end":8453.12,"text":"我們會持續去宣導離線地圖的下載啦"},{"start":8453.12,"end":8455.12,"text":"然後再來就是說那個"},{"start":8455.12,"end":8458.12,"text":"我們也多做這個村里長的這個宣導"},{"start":8458.12,"end":8461.12,"text":"然後請他去協助我們去推廣這個APP"},{"start":8461.12,"end":8464.12,"text":"所以你們覺得這個避難指引沒有問題就對了"},{"start":8464.12,"end":8465.12,"text":"現在給這個連結是沒有問題"},{"start":8465.12,"end":8467.12,"text":"我們會再跟內政部去做研討"},{"start":8467.12,"end":8470.12,"text":"一起來共同推動這件事情"},{"start":8470.12,"end":8472.12,"text":"好我希望這個因為避難指引對民眾來說"},{"start":8472.12,"end":8473.12,"text":"我當時看到"},{"start":8473.12,"end":8475.12,"text":"如果我一般的民眾看到這個訊息"},{"start":8475.12,"end":8477.12,"text":"他當時不在自己熟悉情境的時候"},{"start":8477.12,"end":8480.12,"text":"他真的會很希望說如何幫助他自己盡快的避難"},{"start":8480.12,"end":8483.12,"text":"好所以這個資訊對他來說就是最後的救命的稻草"},{"start":8483.12,"end":8485.12,"text":"一定要做到這件事情可以幫助他好嗎"},{"start":8485.12,"end":8486.12,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":8486.12,"end":8487.12,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":8487.12,"end":8488.12,"text":"好那在下一題我還是要"},{"start":8488.12,"end":8492.12,"text":"但是我要問你們黑夜騎俠的案件啦"},{"start":8494.67,"end":8498.67,"text":"這個就是說北檢最近在偵辦黑夜騎俠"},{"start":8498.67,"end":8502.67,"text":"那目前檢方偵辦的跟媒體的相關報導是說"},{"start":8502.67,"end":8508.67,"text":"涉案人員疑似取得高達2300多萬的戶籍資料"},{"start":8508.67,"end":8509.67,"text":"這代表的是什麼"},{"start":8509.67,"end":8513.67,"text":"是台灣人的個資已經在外面流通"},{"start":8513.67,"end":8514.67,"text":"好那"},{"start":8515.9,"end":8519.9,"text":"這個呢當時內政部是說這個論壇上的資料"},{"start":8519.9,"end":8520.9,"text":"這個資料的"},{"start":8520.9,"end":8525.9,"text":"抱歉那這個我也發現說這其實不是第一次出現這個規模的資料"},{"start":8525.9,"end":8529.9,"text":"在2022年的10月就已經曾經有人在國外論壇"},{"start":8529.9,"end":8533.9,"text":"駭客論壇上面販售約2357萬筆的台灣戶政資料"},{"start":8533.9,"end":8536.9,"text":"當時還有公開20萬筆的宜蘭地區的資料"},{"start":8536.9,"end":8541.9,"text":"那包含了非常清楚的身分證字號地址婚姻狀態"},{"start":8541.9,"end":8543.9,"text":"父母跟配偶等等的資訊"},{"start":8543.9,"end":8548.9,"text":"那當時內政部是表示說論壇上的資料格式跟戶政系統差異非常之大"},{"start":8548.9,"end":8551.9,"text":"所以不是從戶政系統直接外洩"},{"start":8551.9,"end":8554.9,"text":"那也沒有發現被入侵的狀況"},{"start":8554.9,"end":8563.9,"text":"可是後來調查局又在2023年確認外流資料確實是我國在2018年4月以前的戶政資料"},{"start":8563.9,"end":8568.9,"text":"那最近呢這件事情又再往進一步的延伸"},{"start":8568.9,"end":8569.9,"text":"我想要再請教就是說"},{"start":8569.9,"end":8573.9,"text":"我們有一名海軍的推議上是出面指出"},{"start":8573.9,"end":8577.9,"text":"他因為長期在網路上面表達反共的立場"},{"start":8577.9,"end":8581.9,"text":"那和黑夜騎俠在網路上發現爭論之後"},{"start":8581.9,"end":8585.9,"text":"發現對方不僅是掌握了他部分的戶籍資料"},{"start":8585.9,"end":8589.9,"text":"甚至知道他母親是中國籍的配偶"},{"start":8589.9,"end":8592.9,"text":"所以代表是他的資料可能是非常的透明喔"},{"start":8594.32,"end":8596.32,"text":"我想要先請教有關於內政部"},{"start":8597.3,"end":8603.3,"text":"到底我們現在這個2022年跟2018年以前的"},{"start":8603.3,"end":8606.3,"text":"2022年在這個駭客論壇上面流通的"},{"start":8606.3,"end":8610.3,"text":"跟2018年以前的這一筆資料是不是同一批"},{"start":8610.3,"end":8613.3,"text":"因為數字是幾乎是一模一樣"},{"start":8613.3,"end":8616.3,"text":"所以這個可不可以請教一下內政部現在掌握的狀況是什麼"},{"start":8616.3,"end":8618.3,"text":"感謝委員關心喔"},{"start":8618.3,"end":8623.3,"text":"那之前部裡面有報告過那個是2018年舊版本的資料"},{"start":8623.3,"end":8629.3,"text":"那跟這一次疑似公布出來的版本或許是不盡相同"},{"start":8629.3,"end":8633.3,"text":"那因為他這個牽扯到有關護育證這個防火"},{"start":8633.3,"end":8636.3,"text":"還有這個資安的相關問題"},{"start":8636.3,"end":8638.3,"text":"那是否我們回去帶回去之後"},{"start":8638.3,"end":8641.3,"text":"我們請我們的資安部門來同意來做回應"},{"start":8642.7,"end":8645.7,"text":"我想這件事情我們應該要清楚的知道了"},{"start":8645.7,"end":8647.7,"text":"就是說到底是不是同一批"},{"start":8647.7,"end":8648.7,"text":"如果是同一批"},{"start":8648.7,"end":8652.7,"text":"那我們接下來我們到底如何去避免這件事情再發生"},{"start":8652.7,"end":8654.7,"text":"那如果說今天呢"},{"start":8654.7,"end":8656.7,"text":"他可能是"},{"start":8657.18,"end":8659.18,"text":"不同批的話"},{"start":8659.18,"end":8664.18,"text":"那我們到底有沒有能力去判斷他到底從哪一個地方"},{"start":8664.6,"end":8666.6,"text":"就再洩漏出去了"},{"start":8666.6,"end":8671.6,"text":"因為畢竟我們的護正系統其實就是會跟很多單位去做借接嘛"},{"start":8671.6,"end":8672.6,"text":"到底是哪一個點"},{"start":8672.6,"end":8676.6,"text":"露出來我覺得這個政府應該要有能力來告訴我們"},{"start":8676.6,"end":8678.6,"text":"我們現在的判斷跟掌握狀況是什麼"},{"start":8678.6,"end":8682.6,"text":"所以這個部分你大概什麼時候會再來跟我們做說明呢"},{"start":8682.6,"end":8685.6,"text":"跟委員報告我們這個待會去跟部裡面討論"},{"start":8685.6,"end":8687.6,"text":"因為這牽扯到護育證"},{"start":8687.6,"end":8689.6,"text":"那還有相關資安"},{"start":8689.6,"end":8692.6,"text":"那我們回去再專案跟委員報告"},{"start":8692.6,"end":8693.6,"text":"我現在問的是時間"},{"start":8693.6,"end":8694.6,"text":"我沒有說不讓你回去討論"},{"start":8694.6,"end":8696.6,"text":"所以是什麼時間"},{"start":8696.6,"end":8700.6,"text":"因為我們是毒品專責的單位"},{"start":8700.6,"end":8703.6,"text":"那我們還是回去跟他報告之後再馬上跟我們"},{"start":8703.6,"end":8705.6,"text":"好 那我就先落下來一個月的時間好不好"},{"start":8705.6,"end":8707.6,"text":"那請你們的資安處來報告一個月內好不好"},{"start":8707.6,"end":8708.6,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":8708.6,"end":8709.6,"text":"那我還是要請教一下國防部"},{"start":8709.6,"end":8712.6,"text":"就是說因為剛剛有講這是一個退役的上市"},{"start":8712.6,"end":8713.6,"text":"那他的資料清清楚楚"},{"start":8713.6,"end":8714.6,"text":"那這代表是什麼"},{"start":8714.6,"end":8716.6,"text":"如果他今天只是做詐騙都已經蠻嚴重"},{"start":8716.6,"end":8719.6,"text":"可是他如果今天被鎖定是針對於我們的軍演"},{"start":8719.6,"end":8721.6,"text":"不管是嫌疑或退役"},{"start":8721.6,"end":8723.6,"text":"其實都是一個蠻大的風險"},{"start":8723.6,"end":8726.6,"text":"那所以我想請教我關於國防部"},{"start":8726.6,"end":8728.6,"text":"我們現在對於嫌疑軍人"},{"start":8728.6,"end":8729.6,"text":"如果發現自己的配偶"},{"start":8730.8,"end":8732.8,"text":"或者是父母子女等等的個資"},{"start":8732.8,"end":8734.8,"text":"遭不明人士掌握"},{"start":8734.8,"end":8737.8,"text":"甚至進一步提到他的服役單位家庭關係"},{"start":8737.8,"end":8739.8,"text":"進行威脅利誘脅迫"},{"start":8739.8,"end":8741.8,"text":"我們現在標準處理程序是什麼"},{"start":8742.92,"end":8744.92,"text":"第一個部分是我先跟委員報告一下"},{"start":8744.92,"end":8747.92,"text":"就是有關這個退役官兵他的資料"},{"start":8747.92,"end":8750.92,"text":"基本上我們會放到這個所有限制的後備者"},{"start":8750.92,"end":8754.92,"text":"他是用密集的這一個要件來處理"},{"start":8754.92,"end":8756.92,"text":"然後第二個部分是在文件檔案裡面"},{"start":8756.92,"end":8760.92,"text":"確實他會有一些監視的一些系統來佐證"},{"start":8760.92,"end":8763.92,"text":"希望這個個資部分不會去外流"},{"start":8763.92,"end":8765.92,"text":"那第二個部分就是說有關這一個"},{"start":8765.92,"end":8769.92,"text":"如果說有退役的我們現役的官兵"},{"start":8769.92,"end":8772.92,"text":"他假設有被鎖定"},{"start":8772.92,"end":8774.92,"text":"他可以藉由"},{"start":8774.92,"end":8776.92,"text":"第一個部分是我們已經在內部"},{"start":8776.92,"end":8777.92,"text":"已經有做宣導"},{"start":8777.92,"end":8779.92,"text":"就是希望我們今天所有婦女"},{"start":8779.92,"end":8781.92,"text":"或者是已經有被掌握的人"},{"start":8781.92,"end":8784.92,"text":"能夠透過他在役的官兵直接"},{"start":8784.92,"end":8785.92,"text":"來跟我們做個反應"},{"start":8785.92,"end":8787.92,"text":"我們來協助他相關的一些案件"},{"start":8787.92,"end":8790.92,"text":"不會讓這個官兵來獨自面對"},{"start":8790.92,"end":8791.92,"text":"那有關已經退役的官兵"},{"start":8791.92,"end":8792.92,"text":"我們會做一個宣導"},{"start":8792.92,"end":8794.92,"text":"希望他們盡量減少"},{"start":8794.92,"end":8796.92,"text":"到這一個大陸地區"},{"start":8796.92,"end":8797.92,"text":"或者其他地區"},{"start":8797.92,"end":8798.92,"text":"如果有被鎖定的話"},{"start":8798.92,"end":8799.92,"text":"他們可以做"},{"start":8799.92,"end":8801.92,"text":"不好意思 副部長"},{"start":8801.92,"end":8802.92,"text":"我可能要打斷你一下"},{"start":8802.92,"end":8805.92,"text":"就是說我們今天當然做前面宣導"},{"start":8805.92,"end":8806.92,"text":"那都是預警對不對"},{"start":8806.92,"end":8807.92,"text":"是"},{"start":8807.92,"end":8808.92,"text":"但是今天講的是事害"},{"start":8808.92,"end":8810.92,"text":"這些傷害已經發生之後"},{"start":8810.92,"end":8814.92,"text":"我們的這個退役人員"},{"start":8814.92,"end":8815.92,"text":"他要去找誰呢"},{"start":8815.92,"end":8817.92,"text":"因為你剛剛講現役官兵"},{"start":8817.92,"end":8818.92,"text":"你們可能有一個流程"},{"start":8818.92,"end":8821.92,"text":"他可以在裡面去聲明"},{"start":8821.92,"end":8824.92,"text":"可能去說明或報告等等的"},{"start":8824.92,"end":8825.92,"text":"可是那退役的呢"},{"start":8825.92,"end":8826.92,"text":"剛講這個退役"},{"start":8826.92,"end":8827.92,"text":"他到底可以跟誰講"},{"start":8827.92,"end":8829.92,"text":"基本上他可以找有關這個"},{"start":8831.85,"end":8832.85,"text":"退出於官兵輔導委員會"},{"start":8832.85,"end":8834.85,"text":"第二個部分是列管的後備指揮部"},{"start":8834.85,"end":8836.85,"text":"來做一個反應我們來協助"},{"start":8836.85,"end":8838.85,"text":"好 那我想這個訊息"},{"start":8838.85,"end":8839.85,"text":"可能要很清楚"},{"start":8839.85,"end":8840.85,"text":"讓我們退役官兵知道"},{"start":8840.85,"end":8842.85,"text":"那因為這其實會影響到"},{"start":8842.85,"end":8843.85,"text":"國家的一個安全"},{"start":8843.85,"end":8845.85,"text":"那第二個部分是說"},{"start":8845.85,"end":8846.85,"text":"我也想再追問一題"},{"start":8846.85,"end":8848.85,"text":"就是今天如果說是"},{"start":8848.85,"end":8851.85,"text":"他來講說他自己的個資被洩漏"},{"start":8851.85,"end":8853.85,"text":"但是如果一個狀況是"},{"start":8853.85,"end":8854.85,"text":"你們已經掌握有一些"},{"start":8854.85,"end":8855.85,"text":"個資被洩漏的話"},{"start":8855.85,"end":8857.85,"text":"你們會如何的去提醒"},{"start":8857.85,"end":8858.85,"text":"這一些官兵"},{"start":8858.85,"end":8860.85,"text":"甚至是掌握機敏資料的"},{"start":8860.85,"end":8862.85,"text":"我們的軍人呢"},{"start":8862.85,"end":8865.85,"text":"如果說他已經掌握到"},{"start":8865.85,"end":8867.85,"text":"這個個資被洩漏的話"},{"start":8867.85,"end":8869.85,"text":"我們會單獨去找個人"},{"start":8869.85,"end":8870.85,"text":"去跟他做說明"},{"start":8870.85,"end":8871.85,"text":"因為個資洩漏"},{"start":8871.85,"end":8873.85,"text":"其實剛剛委員所提的"},{"start":8873.85,"end":8875.85,"text":"他有非常多的一個管道"},{"start":8875.85,"end":8876.85,"text":"不然到您剛剛所提的"},{"start":8876.85,"end":8878.85,"text":"那個一個管道"},{"start":8878.85,"end":8880.85,"text":"或是系統的連結都可能洩漏"},{"start":8880.85,"end":8881.85,"text":"那如果說基本上"},{"start":8881.85,"end":8883.85,"text":"為什麼剛剛跟委員先說明"},{"start":8883.85,"end":8885.85,"text":"我們退役官兵的部分"},{"start":8885.85,"end":8887.85,"text":"我們是用密集來做處理"},{"start":8887.85,"end":8888.85,"text":"就是我們希望能夠減少"},{"start":8888.85,"end":8890.85,"text":"他個資外洩的這個情形"},{"start":8890.85,"end":8892.85,"text":"那如果已經洩漏的話"},{"start":8892.85,"end":8894.85,"text":"他反應我們來協助"},{"start":8894.85,"end":8895.85,"text":"用個案的方式來處理"},{"start":8895.85,"end":8897.85,"text":"我現在講的其實是預警"},{"start":8897.85,"end":8898.85,"text":"就是說好"},{"start":8898.85,"end":8900.85,"text":"我簡單做個總結好了"},{"start":8900.85,"end":8902.85,"text":"就是說資安這件事情"},{"start":8902.85,"end":8904.85,"text":"我們當然是就是一個矛盾"},{"start":8904.85,"end":8905.85,"text":"誰的盾最強"},{"start":8905.85,"end":8906.85,"text":"但是他們還是會"},{"start":8906.85,"end":8907.85,"text":"持續的來攻破"},{"start":8907.85,"end":8908.85,"text":"因為他們想要這個東西"},{"start":8908.85,"end":8910.85,"text":"所以我們只能不停的"},{"start":8910.85,"end":8911.85,"text":"不停的去強化"},{"start":8911.85,"end":8912.85,"text":"但是終究還是要去面對"},{"start":8912.85,"end":8914.85,"text":"這個個資如果真的外洩的時候"},{"start":8914.85,"end":8916.85,"text":"當我們講到這些資訊的時候"},{"start":8916.85,"end":8918.85,"text":"我們要如何去預警"},{"start":8918.85,"end":8920.85,"text":"我們這些掌握機敏資料的人"},{"start":8920.85,"end":8922.85,"text":"好讓他們可以清楚的知道說"},{"start":8922.85,"end":8924.85,"text":"我們現在會怎麼協助他們"},{"start":8924.85,"end":8926.85,"text":"不然就等到是說"},{"start":8926.85,"end":8927.85,"text":"我自己感受到"},{"start":8927.85,"end":8929.85,"text":"我自己被掌握了"},{"start":8929.85,"end":8930.85,"text":"那會不會在這個時候"},{"start":8930.85,"end":8932.85,"text":"我們有一些重要的情報"},{"start":8932.85,"end":8933.85,"text":"就出去了呢"},{"start":8933.85,"end":8935.85,"text":"好所以我現在講的其實"},{"start":8935.85,"end":8937.85,"text":"再如何在當我們知道"},{"start":8937.85,"end":8938.85,"text":"事件已經發生了"},{"start":8938.85,"end":8941.85,"text":"如何的趕快的去讓他們知道"},{"start":8941.85,"end":8943.85,"text":"國家會協助你"},{"start":8943.85,"end":8944.85,"text":"好不好這件事情"},{"start":8944.85,"end":8946.85,"text":"我希望可以再強化謝謝"},{"start":8946.85,"end":8947.85,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8949.99,"end":8953.99,"text":"好謝謝張雅玲委員的詢答"},{"start":8953.99,"end":8960.99,"text":"那接下來請陳俊宇委員不在"},{"start":8960.99,"end":8964.99,"text":"王安祥委員不在"},{"start":8964.99,"end":8967.99,"text":"那我先來做會議程序的宣告"},{"start":8967.99,"end":8970.99,"text":"稍後我們在委員陳永康"},{"start":8970.99,"end":8973.99,"text":"委員詢答以後休息五分鐘"},{"start":8973.99,"end":8976.99,"text":"我們接下來請陳永康委員"},{"start":8976.99,"end":8978.99,"text":"來做詢答"},{"start":8980.87,"end":8981.87,"text":"來將軍有請"},{"start":8984.16,"end":8986.16,"text":"你接下來休息五分鐘"},{"start":8986.76,"end":8988.76,"text":"主席有請國防部中副部長"},{"start":8988.76,"end":8989.76,"text":"以及法律師司長"},{"start":8989.76,"end":8992.76,"text":"請中副部長還有張司長"},{"start":8992.76,"end":8994.76,"text":"沒有沒有都是國防部長"},{"start":8994.76,"end":8995.76,"text":"委員好"},{"start":8995.76,"end":8996.76,"text":"大家好"},{"start":8996.76,"end":8998.76,"text":"因為剛才已經經歷了"},{"start":8998.76,"end":9000.76,"text":"很多的委員的質詢"},{"start":9000.76,"end":9002.76,"text":"我在看他這個質詢的內容"},{"start":9002.76,"end":9005.76,"text":"有許多委員的專家"},{"start":9005.76,"end":9008.76,"text":"他其實他的質詢的那個格式簡報"},{"start":9008.76,"end":9010.76,"text":"都是用AI做的"},{"start":9010.76,"end":9012.76,"text":"而且我可以告訴你是哪一個AI公司"},{"start":9012.76,"end":9014.76,"text":"好那今天談到的問題就是"},{"start":9014.76,"end":9017.76,"text":"還是提到正院版的第24條"},{"start":9017.76,"end":9020.76,"text":"那個24條的第五項"},{"start":9020.76,"end":9023.76,"text":"那個因為剛才這個吳宗憲委員"},{"start":9023.76,"end":9024.76,"text":"已經提過了"},{"start":9024.76,"end":9026.76,"text":"我建議那個這個第五項"},{"start":9026.76,"end":9028.76,"text":"後面我們保留再討論"},{"start":9028.76,"end":9030.76,"text":"不概念上是支持"},{"start":9030.76,"end":9033.76,"text":"用字上面有些要定義照修正"},{"start":9033.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Artificial Intelligence"},{"start":9189.33,"end":9191.33,"text":"但是你如果付了錢"},{"start":9192.69,"end":9194.69,"text":"讓AI給你產生的答案"},{"start":9194.69,"end":9195.69,"text":"一個是誤導"},{"start":9195.69,"end":9197.69,"text":"第二個是讓你誤判"},{"start":9197.69,"end":9199.69,"text":"做出了一個錯誤決定"},{"start":9199.69,"end":9201.69,"text":"這個時候的AI叫什麼"},{"start":9202.39,"end":9204.39,"text":"叫人工智障"},{"start":9206.02,"end":9209.02,"text":"所以說千萬不要以為AI就是人工智能"},{"start":9209.02,"end":9211.02,"text":"因為你不懂得AI的遊戲規則"},{"start":9211.02,"end":9215.02,"text":"另外就是在我們的現在對AI管制的法律條款裡面"},{"start":9215.91,"end":9216.91,"text":"更新不上"},{"start":9217.51,"end":9219.51,"text":"我曾經在過去"},{"start":9219.51,"end":9222.51,"text":"也跟中央指揮部第五艦隊司令都曾經談過"},{"start":9222.51,"end":9224.51,"text":"我們現在談到無人機"},{"start":9224.51,"end":9227.51,"text":"我們95%叫做遠端遙控"},{"start":9227.51,"end":9228.51,"text":"你帶一個鏡子"},{"start":9228.51,"end":9231.51,"text":"讓你的畫面透過Tech可以傳回司令部"},{"start":9231.51,"end":9233.51,"text":"但是是本人在遙控"},{"start":9233.51,"end":9237.51,"text":"未來你在發展高端的無人機自主型的"},{"start":9237.51,"end":9239.51,"text":"Autonomous"},{"start":9239.28,"end":9240.28,"text":"這個時候"},{"start":9240.28,"end":9242.28,"text":"美方就講你的ROE是什麼"},{"start":9242.28,"end":9246.28,"text":"就不是我們講的一個紙牌"},{"start":9246.28,"end":9247.28,"text":"傳給基層部隊"},{"start":9247.28,"end":9249.28,"text":"這個時候是叫做戰武令"},{"start":9249.28,"end":9253.28,"text":"所以這種對中大型自主式致命性的無人機"},{"start":9254.82,"end":9256.82,"text":"他這個時候指揮層級"},{"start":9256.82,"end":9258.82,"text":"Man in the loop on the loop"},{"start":9258.82,"end":9261.82,"text":"在這個部分我們現在都沒有明確的定義"},{"start":9262.28,"end":9265.28,"text":"所以我們號稱這個希望國產"},{"start":9265.28,"end":9268.28,"text":"這個21萬架"},{"start":9268.28,"end":9272.28,"text":"其實這個20多萬架都是遠端遙控"},{"start":9272.28,"end":9274.28,"text":"真正自主型的高端式的"},{"start":9274.28,"end":9278.28,"text":"這個裡面就有AI建入裡面的責任區分"},{"start":9278.28,"end":9280.28,"text":"這個責任很重要"},{"start":9280.28,"end":9283.28,"text":"剛才委員還在講這個紅色海灘"},{"start":9283.28,"end":9286.28,"text":"我想連長官也在這邊"},{"start":9286.28,"end":9287.28,"text":"紅色海灘的定義"},{"start":9287.28,"end":9289.28,"text":"不是我們立法院講的定義"},{"start":9289.28,"end":9292.28,"text":"那是指正規兩系登陸的海灘"},{"start":9292.28,"end":9294.28,"text":"是銀級海灘、鋁級海灘"},{"start":9294.28,"end":9297.28,"text":"不是做個橡皮筆上來就叫紅色海灘"},{"start":9297.28,"end":9299.28,"text":"這個部分我們其實國防部"},{"start":9299.28,"end":9301.28,"text":"應該有很明確的定義說明"},{"start":9301.28,"end":9304.28,"text":"哪些漢港演習不要再演戲了"},{"start":9304.28,"end":9305.28,"text":"是演習不是演戲了"},{"start":9305.28,"end":9307.28,"text":"根本沒有辦法正規登陸"},{"start":9309.36,"end":9311.36,"text":"巴黎海灘早就已經被切斷了"},{"start":9311.36,"end":9314.36,"text":"淡江大橋出來你要做何妨是一回事"},{"start":9314.36,"end":9316.36,"text":"但對兩系演習"},{"start":9316.92,"end":9319.92,"text":"我們中華民國陸戰隊不能演戲的海灘"},{"start":9321.36,"end":9323.36,"text":"就不是正規能夠登陸的海灘"},{"start":9323.36,"end":9326.36,"text":"所以這個部分我希望能夠盡快把它釐清"},{"start":9326.36,"end":9330.36,"text":"那今天因為是本席有機會參與這個"},{"start":9330.36,"end":9332.36,"text":"我只是提供一個建言"},{"start":9333.19,"end":9335.19,"text":"第一個海灘的定義要明確"},{"start":9335.19,"end":9337.19,"text":"第二個AI導入以後"},{"start":9337.19,"end":9339.19,"text":"我們官員承擔的責任"},{"start":9339.75,"end":9341.75,"text":"法律責任指揮官的責任"},{"start":9342.6,"end":9344.6,"text":"要承擔而不是下售"},{"start":9344.6,"end":9348.6,"text":"而這個去中心化統統下售這是不負責的"},{"start":9348.97,"end":9351.97,"text":"如果統統下售你就不要進橫直鎖"},{"start":9351.97,"end":9353.97,"text":"直接就到旅集去演戲"},{"start":9353.97,"end":9357.97,"text":"所以不是這個叫中心是可以調整的"},{"start":9357.97,"end":9360.97,"text":"Scent of Gravity是可以調節的"},{"start":9360.97,"end":9361.97,"text":"而不是去中心"},{"start":9361.97,"end":9364.97,"text":"至於你作戰戰務令的授權下售"},{"start":9364.97,"end":9366.97,"text":"這不叫去中心化"},{"start":9366.97,"end":9368.97,"text":"我們這個定義到現在都講不清楚"},{"start":9368.97,"end":9370.97,"text":"那至於兩系的紅色海灘"},{"start":9370.97,"end":9374.97,"text":"我希望我們內部做進一步的調整更新"},{"start":9374.97,"end":9377.97,"text":"我想剛才幾個建議我還是請法律司司長"},{"start":9377.97,"end":9379.97,"text":"法律司司長您做一個簡短的回應"},{"start":9381.05,"end":9382.05,"text":"各位委員報告"},{"start":9382.05,"end":9385.05,"text":"那我們調整陸海空軍刑法第24條"},{"start":9385.05,"end":9390.05,"text":"主要是言語舉動文字圖畫或電池記錄"},{"start":9390.05,"end":9392.05,"text":"科技方法或其他方式"},{"start":9392.05,"end":9394.05,"text":"剛才委員講到圖畫對"},{"start":9394.05,"end":9397.05,"text":"但是他如果有畫一個圖畫彰顯出來的"},{"start":9397.05,"end":9399.05,"text":"畫意的表現"},{"start":9399.05,"end":9401.05,"text":"那我們還是要經過偵查的手段"},{"start":9401.05,"end":9403.05,"text":"來了解他主觀的範疑"},{"start":9403.05,"end":9406.05,"text":"我們才能夠判定他是不是有違反24條"},{"start":9406.05,"end":9408.05,"text":"我要徵定的這一條的罪"},{"start":9408.05,"end":9409.05,"text":"當然是文字是比較明確啦"},{"start":9409.05,"end":9413.05,"text":"那圖畫我們本來就是要透過其他一個偵查的手段"},{"start":9413.05,"end":9417.05,"text":"然後可能要詢問才會知道他真正想表達什麼意思"},{"start":9417.05,"end":9419.05,"text":"特別跟您講"},{"start":9419.05,"end":9421.05,"text":"我不知道您用AI用多久"},{"start":9421.05,"end":9423.05,"text":"你曉得現在產生的一個圖畫"},{"start":9423.05,"end":9426.05,"text":"隨著繞一圈就有20萬個人在看"},{"start":9426.05,"end":9428.05,"text":"每個人都可以截圖把你圖案引畫上去"},{"start":9428.05,"end":9431.05,"text":"所以用圖畫來追蹤他的意圖"},{"start":9431.05,"end":9433.05,"text":"誠意甚高"},{"start":9433.05,"end":9436.05,"text":"實際上你自己本身也沒有用AI去過濾"},{"start":9436.05,"end":9438.05,"text":"你沒有辦法做判斷"},{"start":9438.05,"end":9440.05,"text":"所以AI產生的圖像"},{"start":9440.05,"end":9442.05,"text":"換人貼臉、假音"},{"start":9442.05,"end":9444.05,"text":"這種東西要更審慎"},{"start":9444.05,"end":9447.05,"text":"也就是說圖像是非常嚴謹的"},{"start":9447.05,"end":9449.05,"text":"這點提供參考"},{"start":9449.05,"end":9451.05,"text":"我的質詢到這邊謝謝"},{"start":9454.01,"end":9458.01,"text":"謝謝陳永康委員的詢答"},{"start":9458.01,"end":9462.01,"text":"言語、文字、圖畫"},{"start":9462.01,"end":9464.01,"text":"尤其這個圖畫"},{"start":9464.01,"end":9468.01,"text":"確實是等一下可以好好來討論"},{"start":9468.01,"end":9470.01,"text":"圖畫"},{"start":9470.01,"end":9472.01,"text":"因為有時候主觀"},{"start":9472.01,"end":9474.01,"text":"主觀很難去想像"},{"start":9474.01,"end":9476.01,"text":"所有的刑法"},{"start":9476.01,"end":9478.01,"text":"你的各個刑法分責"},{"start":9478.01,"end":9480.01,"text":"或者其他有涉及到刑法的"},{"start":9480.01,"end":9482.01,"text":"那個過程要進裡面"},{"start":9482.01,"end":9484.01,"text":"你要去搶他的主觀"},{"start":9484.01,"end":9485.01,"text":"有時候都很難講"},{"start":9485.01,"end":9487.01,"text":"主觀有時候很難去想像"},{"start":9487.01,"end":9489.01,"text":"我一把槍打過去"},{"start":9489.01,"end":9490.01,"text":"我到底是要打你"},{"start":9490.01,"end":9491.01,"text":"或者要打你的腳"},{"start":9491.01,"end":9492.01,"text":"我是神槍手"},{"start":9492.01,"end":9493.01,"text":"要打你的腳趾"},{"start":9493.01,"end":9494.01,"text":"不小心的打到心臟"},{"start":9494.01,"end":9495.01,"text":"這個怎麼講"},{"start":9495.01,"end":9498.01,"text":"我要打你後面那一隻烏龜"},{"start":9498.73,"end":9499.73,"text":"就打到你"},{"start":9500.23,"end":9503.23,"text":"這個主觀上都真的是很難去想像"},{"start":9503.23,"end":9505.23,"text":"然後這個圖畫的部分"},{"start":9505.23,"end":9507.23,"text":"確實等一下可以好好大家來"},{"start":9507.23,"end":9509.23,"text":"來做一個思考"},{"start":9509.23,"end":9512.23,"text":"來我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9519.67,"end":9521.67,"text":"我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9521.67,"end":9523.67,"text":"我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9523.67,"end":9525.67,"text":"我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9525.67,"end":9527.67,"text":"我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9527.67,"end":9529.67,"text":"我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9529.67,"end":9531.67,"text":"我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9531.67,"end":9533.67,"text":"我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9533.67,"end":9535.67,"text":"我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9535.67,"end":9537.67,"text":"我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9537.67,"end":9539.67,"text":"我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9539.67,"end":9541.67,"text":"我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9541.67,"end":9543.67,"text":"我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9543.67,"end":9545.67,"text":"我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9545.67,"end":9547.67,"text":"我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9529.66,"end":9531.66,"text":"我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9531.66,"end":9533.66,"text":"我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9533.66,"end":9535.66,"text":"我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9535.66,"end":9537.66,"text":"我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9537.66,"end":9539.66,"text":"我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9539.66,"end":9541.66,"text":"我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9541.66,"end":9543.66,"text":"我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9543.66,"end":9545.66,"text":"我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9545.66,"end":9547.66,"text":"我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9547.66,"end":9549.66,"text":"我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9549.66,"end":9551.66,"text":"我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9551.66,"end":9553.66,"text":"我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9553.66,"end":9555.66,"text":"我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9555.66,"end":9557.66,"text":"我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9588.41,"end":9590.41,"text":"我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9590.41,"end":9592.41,"text":"我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9592.41,"end":9594.41,"text":"我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9594.41,"end":9596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再次請來最專業的大帥哥陳冠廷召為"},{"start":10127.92,"end":10129.92,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":10129.92,"end":10131.92,"text":"那我們請副部長跟司長"},{"start":10131.92,"end":10133.92,"text":"請副部長跟司長"},{"start":10138.16,"end":10140.16,"text":"陳委員好"},{"start":10139.73,"end":10141.73,"text":"副部長"},{"start":10140.94,"end":10142.94,"text":"這個我們今天針對的這個"},{"start":10142.94,"end":10144.94,"text":"入海公軍刑法第24條提出修正案"},{"start":10144.94,"end":10146.94,"text":"那原因當然是因為"},{"start":10146.94,"end":10148.94,"text":"最近如果大家看新聞的話"},{"start":10148.94,"end":10150.94,"text":"有許多基層的這些士官兵"},{"start":10150.94,"end":10152.94,"text":"那可能是因為財務上面的糾紛困難"},{"start":10152.94,"end":10154.94,"text":"那可能是因為財務上面的糾紛困難"},{"start":10154.94,"end":10156.94,"text":"那導致說他們必須"},{"start":10156.94,"end":10158.94,"text":"來透過地下錢莊"},{"start":10158.94,"end":10160.94,"text":"那導致一來債滾債"},{"start":10160.94,"end":10162.94,"text":"那沒有辦法去負擔"},{"start":10162.94,"end":10164.94,"text":"那最後就"},{"start":10164.6,"end":10166.6,"text":"向中國或者是中國的"},{"start":10166.6,"end":10168.6,"text":"這個代理勢力"},{"start":10168.6,"end":10170.6,"text":"來去錄影"},{"start":10170.6,"end":10172.6,"text":"來表達他們要對中共效忠的"},{"start":10172.6,"end":10174.6,"text":"這樣子的表現喔"},{"start":10174.68,"end":10176.68,"text":"那"},{"start":10175.59,"end":10177.59,"text":"針對這個部分"},{"start":10177.59,"end":10179.59,"text":"其實我自己也有版本喔"},{"start":10179.59,"end":10181.59,"text":"那我的版本裡面"},{"start":10181.59,"end":10183.59,"text":"那是針對這些"},{"start":10183.59,"end":10185.59,"text":"以言語、舉動、文字、圖畫、電池記錄、科技方法"},{"start":10185.59,"end":10187.59,"text":"或其他方式"},{"start":10187.59,"end":10189.59,"text":"對敵人效忠"},{"start":10190.91,"end":10192.91,"text":"但是我不是只有講這邊喔"},{"start":10193.44,"end":10195.44,"text":"主以身"},{"start":10195.13,"end":10197.13,"text":"軍事上之不利者"},{"start":10197.31,"end":10199.31,"text":"除一年以上、七年以下有期圖寫"},{"start":10199.31,"end":10201.31,"text":"那原版的是沒有這一句話"},{"start":10201.31,"end":10203.31,"text":"那我為什麼要談這句話"},{"start":10203.31,"end":10205.31,"text":"就是說在"},{"start":10205.31,"end":10207.31,"text":"我們同時要有一個平衡"},{"start":10207.31,"end":10209.31,"text":"平衡性的意思就是說"},{"start":10209.31,"end":10211.31,"text":"你必須要知道說他的這個意圖"},{"start":10211.31,"end":10213.31,"text":"會造成這個結果"},{"start":10213.31,"end":10215.31,"text":"那是對我國的軍事是不利的"},{"start":10215.31,"end":10217.31,"text":"但是如果他沒有這個意圖"},{"start":10217.31,"end":10219.31,"text":"那也沒有這個結果"},{"start":10219.31,"end":10221.31,"text":"那是又另外一回事"},{"start":10221.31,"end":10223.31,"text":"但是既沒有這個意圖"},{"start":10221.56,"end":10223.56,"text":"也沒有這個結果"},{"start":10223.56,"end":10225.56,"text":"但是他傳送了這些言語、文字、圖畫、跟電池記錄"},{"start":10227.12,"end":10229.12,"text":"那作為可能是他"},{"start":10229.12,"end":10231.12,"text":"我們不揣測嘛"},{"start":10231.12,"end":10233.12,"text":"有可能是在他認為是"},{"start":10233.12,"end":10235.12,"text":"玩笑"},{"start":10235.12,"end":10237.12,"text":"或者是認為是這個"},{"start":10237.12,"end":10239.12,"text":"他沒有這個意圖去傷害我國的國軍"},{"start":10239.12,"end":10241.12,"text":"只是他故意這樣子講"},{"start":10241.12,"end":10243.12,"text":"來去反諷"},{"start":10243.12,"end":10245.12,"text":"可能有各種不同的方式"},{"start":10245.12,"end":10247.12,"text":"就是說在這種狀況之下"},{"start":10247.12,"end":10251.12,"text":"那我們用哪樣子的條文、刑法來去辦理"},{"start":10251.12,"end":10253.12,"text":"那就是很重要"},{"start":10253.12,"end":10255.12,"text":"那我們認為說"},{"start":10254.33,"end":10256.33,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10255.76,"end":10257.76,"text":"那如果說他有這個意圖"},{"start":10257.76,"end":10259.76,"text":"那他可能是在他認為是"},{"start":10259.76,"end":10261.76,"text":"玩笑"},{"start":10261.76,"end":10263.76,"text":"或者是在他認為是"},{"start":10263.76,"end":10265.76,"text":"玩笑"},{"start":10265.76,"end":10267.76,"text":"那他可能是在他認為是"},{"start":10267.76,"end":10269.76,"text":"玩笑"},{"start":10269.76,"end":10271.76,"text":"那他可能是在他認為是"},{"start":10271.76,"end":10273.76,"text":"玩笑"},{"start":10273.76,"end":10275.76,"text":"那他可能是在他認為是"},{"start":10275.76,"end":10277.76,"text":"玩笑"},{"start":10277.76,"end":10279.76,"text":"那他可能是在他認為是"},{"start":10279.76,"end":10281.76,"text":"玩笑"},{"start":10281.76,"end":10283.76,"text":"那他可能是在他認為是"},{"start":10270.02,"end":10272.02,"text":"我們的這個"},{"start":10272.02,"end":10274.02,"text":"我們的這個"},{"start":10274.02,"end":10276.02,"text":"我們的這個"},{"start":10276.02,"end":10278.02,"text":"我們的這個"},{"start":10278.02,"end":10280.02,"text":"我們的這個"},{"start":10280.02,"end":10282.02,"text":"我們的這個"},{"start":10282.02,"end":10284.02,"text":"我們的這個"},{"start":10284.02,"end":10286.02,"text":"我們的這個"},{"start":10286.02,"end":10288.02,"text":"我們的這個"},{"start":10288.02,"end":10290.02,"text":"我們的這個"},{"start":10290.02,"end":10292.02,"text":"我們的這個"},{"start":10292.02,"end":10294.02,"text":"我們的這個"},{"start":10294.02,"end":10296.02,"text":"我們的這個"},{"start":10296.02,"end":10298.02,"text":"我們的這個"},{"start":10277.78,"end":10279.78,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":10279.78,"end":10281.78,"text":"提出的版本有在"},{"start":10281.78,"end":10283.78,"text":"言語舉動、文字圖畫、電視記錄"},{"start":10283.78,"end":10285.78,"text":"科技方法或"},{"start":10285.78,"end":10287.78,"text":"其他方式對敵人為"},{"start":10287.78,"end":10289.78,"text":"效忠之表示後面加了主語聲"},{"start":10289.78,"en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t":"跟委員報告"},{"start":10478.12,"end":10480.12,"text":"副部長跟您說明的有關國軍"},{"start":10480.12,"end":10482.12,"text":"正義專案實施作為規定是針對"},{"start":10482.12,"end":10484.12,"text":"我們現役軍人如果遭受到可能"},{"start":10485.14,"end":10487.14,"text":"有一些不當的接觸的話我們要按照規定"},{"start":10487.14,"end":10489.14,"text":"要向上回報"},{"start":10489.14,"end":10491.14,"text":"所以沒有法則"},{"start":10491.14,"end":10493.14,"text":"這屬於我們自己的內部管理的規定"},{"start":10493.14,"end":10495.14,"text":"那這樣規定就可以足以規範"},{"start":10495.14,"end":10497.14,"text":"我們現役軍人有回報的義務"},{"start":10497.14,"end":10499.14,"text":"如果你沒有回報事後被我們察覺的話"},{"start":10499.14,"end":10501.14,"text":"可以按照入海公軍懲罰法"},{"start":10501.14,"end":10503.14,"text":"來加以懲處"},{"start":10503.14,"end":10505.14,"text":"那會是什麼樣的懲處"},{"start":10505.14,"end":10507.14,"text":"就行政處分"},{"start":10507.14,"end":10509.14,"text":"我剛才問的是說你認為"},{"start":10509.14,"end":10511.14,"text":"這樣已經足夠了"},{"start":10511.14,"end":10513.14,"text":"你不認為說還要再往上"},{"start":10513.14,"end":10515.14,"text":"對 等於目前為止是"},{"start":10516.75,"end":10518.75,"text":"我們還不建議提到法律的未接"},{"start":10518.75,"end":10520.75,"text":"因為如果是說提到法律未接"},{"start":10520.75,"end":10522.75,"text":"就可能現役軍人設法反滲透法"},{"start":10522.75,"end":10524.75,"text":"或其他法律相關規定"},{"start":10524.75,"end":10526.75,"text":"就適用到其他的法律去處理就好"},{"start":10526.75,"end":10528.75,"text":"那我了解"},{"start":10528.75,"end":10530.75,"text":"那反正現在有相關的規定"},{"start":10530.75,"end":10532.75,"text":"在軍中也有做宣導"},{"start":10532.75,"end":10534.75,"text":"那我們剛才提到的都是"},{"start":10534.75,"end":10536.75,"text":"現役的軍官有必須要去"},{"start":10536.75,"end":10538.75,"text":"義務通報"},{"start":10538.75,"end":10540.75,"text":"那我現在問的是退役的軍人的話"},{"start":10540.75,"end":10542.75,"text":"那我講一下"},{"start":10542.75,"end":10544.75,"text":"退役的軍人他們列管多久"},{"start":10544.75,"end":10546.75,"text":"比方說如果是"},{"start":10546.75,"end":10548.75,"text":"二星三星的將軍"},{"start":10548.75,"end":10550.75,"text":"他到"},{"start":10550.75,"end":10552.75,"text":"退役之後那也是"},{"start":10552.75,"end":10554.75,"text":"除役了之後他還是有在"},{"start":10554.75,"end":10556.75,"text":"被列管嗎大概列管的時間是多久"},{"start":10556.75,"end":10558.75,"text":"跟我們一報告就是看"},{"start":10558.75,"end":10560.75,"text":"我們國軍國安兵設密的程度"},{"start":10560.75,"end":10562.75,"text":"為一個合訂的標準"},{"start":10562.75,"end":10564.75,"text":"大概最長的話可以到"},{"start":10564.75,"end":10566.75,"text":"十年嗎"},{"start":10566.75,"end":10568.75,"text":"機密就可以到三年"},{"start":10568.75,"end":10570.75,"text":"機密的話是三年那絕對機密"},{"start":10570.75,"end":10572.75,"text":"就是比較久"},{"start":10572.75,"end":10574.75,"text":"好那所以說退職的"},{"start":10574.75,"end":10576.75,"text":"已經離職的"},{"start":10576.75,"end":10578.75,"text":"包含願聘過的人員"},{"start":10578.75,"end":10580.75,"text":"他退職離職"},{"start":10580.75,"end":10582.75,"text":"三年內如果接受到"},{"start":10582.75,"end":10584.75,"text":"異常的接觸的話"},{"start":10584.75,"end":10586.75,"text":"他一樣有義務嗎"},{"start":10586.58,"end":10588.58,"text":"跟委員報告如果是"},{"start":10588.58,"end":10590.58,"text":"退役人員的話我們會在他退伍之前"},{"start":10590.58,"end":10592.58,"text":"我們都會跟大家做宣達"},{"start":10592.58,"end":10594.58,"text":"但是我們自己國軍內部的規定已經"},{"start":10594.58,"end":10596.58,"text":"沒辦法去拘束到"},{"start":10596.58,"end":10598.58,"text":"退役人員所以我要講"},{"start":10598.58,"end":10600.58,"text":"這件事情就是說第一點"},{"start":10600.58,"end":10602.58,"text":"他還是設密人員他還是"},{"start":10602.58,"end":10604.58,"text":"一樣他要被規範三年"},{"start":10604.58,"end":10606.58,"text":"因為他的這個機密保護"},{"start":10606.58,"end":10608.58,"text":"你包含你限制出境"},{"start":10608.58,"end":10610.58,"text":"等等是三年有些是五年我不知道"},{"start":10610.58,"end":10612.58,"text":"三年為主我們就講三年的機密為主"},{"start":10612.58,"end":10614.58,"text":"那這三年內他"},{"start":10614.58,"end":10616.58,"text":"如果接受到異常的來去做"},{"start":10616.58,"end":10618.58,"text":"接觸的話他沒有義務"},{"start":10618.58,"end":10620.58,"text":"來去通報那我覺得是不是"},{"start":10620.58,"end":10622.58,"text":"就可以相關的規定是不是要做調整"},{"start":10623.6,"end":10625.6,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":10625.6,"end":10627.6,"text":"如果是在他期限之內"},{"start":10627.6,"end":10629.6,"text":"他有出國有接受到相關"},{"start":10629.6,"end":10631.6,"text":"人員的探訪他要回報"},{"start":10631.6,"end":10633.6,"text":"但是如果是說超過期限"},{"start":10633.6,"end":10635.6,"text":"他就不用回報原則上就是說"},{"start":10635.6,"end":10637.6,"text":"你剛才也提到說他沒有"},{"start":10637.6,"end":10639.6,"text":"相關的職業跟規範所以我才問說"},{"start":10639.6,"end":10641.6,"text":"是不是應該要把相關"},{"start":10641.6,"end":10643.6,"text":"的規範來納入或者"},{"start":10643.6,"end":10645.6,"text":"我不知道用法律的慰藉還是行政命令的慰藉"},{"start":10645.6,"end":10647.6,"text":"要怎麼樣去承處因為他已經退役了你要怎麼去"},{"start":10647.6,"end":10649.6,"text":"承處那變成你要用其他的方式去"},{"start":10649.6,"end":10651.6,"text":"辦理嗎那"},{"start":10651.6,"end":10653.6,"text":"如果他的這個他只是"},{"start":10653.6,"end":10655.6,"text":"涉及沒有回報"},{"start":10655.6,"end":10657.6,"text":"可是對我們來講這個情報就"},{"start":10657.6,"end":10659.6,"text":"就等於是斷掉了這很可惜"},{"start":10659.6,"end":10661.6,"text":"那我們就沒有辦法去第一時間把"},{"start":10661.6,"end":10663.6,"text":"要滲透的這些單位來去"},{"start":10663.6,"end":10665.6,"text":"做調整"},{"start":10665.6,"end":10667.6,"text":"我是認為可以考慮就是說"},{"start":10667.6,"end":10669.6,"text":"這在機密"},{"start":10669.6,"end":10671.6,"text":"的規範內不管是三年五年"},{"start":10671.6,"end":10673.6,"text":"他涉密層級到機密跟"},{"start":10673.6,"end":10675.6,"text":"這個絕對機密等等的那段時間內"},{"start":10675.6,"end":10677.6,"text":"他還是要有義務去規"},{"start":10677.6,"end":10679.6,"text":"有義務去回報的那"},{"start":10679.6,"end":10681.6,"text":"我講個美方的例子喔其實"},{"start":10682.65,"end":10684.65,"text":"之前美國有一些案例"},{"start":10684.65,"end":10686.65,"text":"他是甚至是跟友邦"},{"start":10686.65,"end":10688.65,"text":"就是跟我國"},{"start":10688.65,"end":10690.65,"text":"他是正常的接觸喔"},{"start":10690.65,"end":10692.65,"text":"正常的接觸喔"},{"start":10692.65,"end":10694.65,"text":"只是正常的接觸然後"},{"start":10694.65,"end":10696.65,"text":"我們他交付一個"},{"start":10697.63,"end":10699.63,"text":"不敏感的文件就是一般公務文件"},{"start":10699.63,"end":10701.63,"text":"而已喔"},{"start":10701.63,"end":10703.63,"text":"那一位美方人員是受到"},{"start":10703.63,"end":10705.63,"text":"很嚴正的這個調查"},{"start":10706.09,"end":10708.09,"text":"那還有就是說"},{"start":10708.09,"end":10710.09,"text":"接觸我國官員沒有"},{"start":10710.09,"end":10712.09,"text":"回報喔因為他是接觸我國"},{"start":10712.09,"end":10714.09,"text":"的官員但他沒有回報他已經"},{"start":10714.09,"end":10716.09,"text":"不是現任的官員"},{"start":10716.09,"end":10718.09,"text":"他只是在那個列館"},{"start":10718.09,"end":10720.09,"text":"的密的他還是有這個clarance"},{"start":10720.09,"end":10722.09,"text":"的這個概念他就要接受"},{"start":10722.09,"end":10724.09,"text":"這樣子這麼神秘的調查而且"},{"start":10724.09,"end":10726.09,"text":"是跟友邦喔是很親密的國家"},{"start":10726.09,"end":10728.09,"text":"的友邦"},{"start":10727.92,"end":10729.92,"text":"那我認為我們可能以我們現在國情的狀況"},{"start":10732.02,"end":10734.02,"text":"該調整的還是可以適當調整"},{"start":10734.02,"end":10736.02,"text":"不是每一個我們都要把它嚴刑峻法說要"},{"start":10736.02,"end":10738.02,"text":"把它送到監獄不是這個意思"},{"start":10738.02,"end":10740.02,"text":"而是要有相關的罰則"},{"start":10740.02,"end":10742.02,"text":"我不贊同把所有人都"},{"start":10742.02,"end":10744.02,"text":"打怕是一點點就要用"},{"start":10744.02,"end":10746.02,"text":"有期徒刑來去限制"},{"start":10746.02,"end":10748.02,"text":"但是是要有相應的罰則至少知道說"},{"start":10748.02,"end":10750.02,"text":"我做這件事情我沒有做這件事情"},{"start":10750.69,"end":10752.69,"text":"會有一定的對我的"},{"start":10752.69,"end":10754.69,"text":"仕途也好或者是對我未來的"},{"start":10754.69,"end":10756.69,"text":"在非政府單位也好"},{"start":10756.69,"end":10758.69,"text":"或者是對我自己的金錢會也好"},{"start":10758.69,"end":10760.69,"text":"會有負面的影響"},{"start":10760.69,"end":10762.69,"text":"這樣子他們才會"},{"start":10761.88,"end":10763.88,"text":"去調整他們的行為"},{"start":10763.88,"end":10765.88,"text":"盡快的去回報給政府機關"},{"start":10765.88,"end":10767.88,"text":"這樣對我們得到情報的方式"},{"start":10767.88,"end":10769.88,"text":"反情報的方式反滲透的方式"},{"start":10769.88,"end":10771.88,"text":"才會有所爭議"},{"start":10771.88,"end":10773.88,"text":"我是這樣想的希望"},{"start":10773.88,"end":10775.88,"text":"這個市長可以"},{"start":10775.88,"end":10777.88,"text":"簡單的書面回顧"},{"start":10777.88,"end":10779.88,"text":"你們的建議的修正方向"},{"start":10779.88,"end":10781.88,"text":"或者是這個改正方向"},{"start":10781.88,"end":10783.88,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":10784.88,"end":10786.88,"text":"大概什麼時候可以建議給我們"},{"start":10788.66,"end":10790.66,"text":"我不要很長的文字"},{"start":10790.66,"end":10792.66,"text":"我只是要你們建議的"},{"start":10792.66,"end":10794.66,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個部分"},{"start":10794.66,"end":10796.66,"text":"涉及到特殊議關"},{"start":10796.66,"end":10798.66,"text":"因為國防部目前"},{"start":10798.66,"end":10800.66,"text":"最主要是縣議軍的"},{"start":10800.66,"end":10802.66,"text":"你們的建議就好"},{"start":10802.66,"end":10804.66,"text":"沒關係"},{"start":10804.66,"end":10806.66,"text":"兩個禮拜可以嗎"},{"start":10808.03,"end":10810.03,"text":"簡單就好了簡單的文字給我就好了"},{"start":10811.62,"end":10815.62,"text":"好謝謝陳冠廷委員的詢答"},{"start":10815.62,"end":10817.62,"text":"所有登記發言的委員均已發言完畢"},{"start":10817.62,"end":10819.62,"text":"詢答結束"},{"start":10819.62,"end":10821.62,"text":"委員質詢時要求提供相關資料"},{"start":10821.62,"end":10823.62,"text":"或以書面答覆者請相關機關"},{"start":10823.62,"end":10829.62,"text":"盡速送交各被委員或本聯席會"},{"start":10829.62,"end":10833.62,"text":"委員蔡其昌、范雲、陳昭之、王安祥"},{"start":10833.62,"end":10837.62,"text":"審發會、許以貞、陳俊宇、傅坤琦、翁曉玲"},{"start":10837.62,"end":10839.62,"text":"所提書面質詢"},{"start":10839.62,"end":10841.62,"text":"並列入記錄、刊登公報"},{"start":10841.62,"end":10845.62,"text":"並請相關機關以書面來作答覆"},{"start":10845.62,"end":10847.62,"text":"現在我們來進行討論事項"},{"start":10847.62,"end":10851.62,"text":"請議事人員宣讀全部提案條文"},{"start":10851.62,"end":10853.62,"text":"宣讀時間差不多九分鐘"},{"start":10853.62,"end":10855.62,"text":"如果有修正動議或附帶決議提出"},{"start":10855.62,"end":10859.62,"text":"請盡速將書面送交主席台"},{"start":10859.62,"end":10861.62,"text":"避立印發現場來進行討論"},{"start":10861.62,"end":10863.62,"text":"審查法案的時候"},{"start":10863.62,"end":10865.62,"text":"請主要列席機關代表"},{"start":10865.62,"end":10869.62,"text":"與主席台政前方首長席的位置來就座"},{"start":10869.62,"end":10871.62,"text":"宣讀的時候"},{"start":10871.62,"end":10873.62,"text":"如果有已經收到的修正動議"},{"start":10873.62,"end":10875.62,"text":"請一併來做宣讀"},{"start":10875.62,"end":10877.62,"text":"宣讀以後我們就來進行討論"},{"start":10877.62,"end":10879.62,"text":"現在請宣讀條文"},{"start":10881.54,"end":10883.54,"text":"討論事項第一案"},{"start":10883.54,"end":10885.54,"text":"繼續並按審查行政院韓清審議"},{"start":10885.54,"end":10889.54,"text":"陸海空軍刑法第24條條文修正草案等十案"},{"start":10889.54,"end":10891.54,"text":"請參閱條文對照表"},{"start":10891.54,"end":10893.54,"text":"行政院提案第24條第一項未修正"},{"start":10893.54,"end":10895.54,"text":"第二項修正如下"},{"start":10895.54,"end":10897.54,"text":"不盡其因競之責而降低者"},{"start":10897.54,"end":10899.54,"text":"處三年以上十年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":10899.54,"end":10901.54,"text":"第三項修正如下"},{"start":10901.54,"end":10903.54,"text":"預備或應謀犯第一項或第二項之罪者"},{"start":10903.54,"end":10905.54,"text":"處六月以上五年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":10905.54,"end":10907.54,"text":"增訂第五項如下"},{"start":10907.54,"end":10909.54,"text":"以言語舉動文字圖畫"},{"start":10909.54,"end":10911.54,"text":"電磁記錄科技方法"},{"start":10911.54,"end":10913.54,"text":"或其他方式對敵人為效忠之表示者"},{"start":10913.54,"end":10915.54,"text":"處五年以上七年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":10915.54,"end":10917.54,"text":"委員另一項等提案第24條"},{"start":10917.54,"end":10919.54,"text":"對照行政院提案"},{"start":10919.54,"end":10921.54,"text":"處第五項修正為"},{"start":10921.54,"end":10923.54,"text":"以言語舉動文字圖畫"},{"start":10923.54,"end":10925.54,"text":"電磁記錄科技方法或其他方式"},{"start":10925.54,"end":10927.54,"text":"對敵人為效忠之表示"},{"start":10927.54,"end":10929.54,"text":"足以聲軍事上之不利益"},{"start":10929.54,"end":10931.54,"text":"玷汙國家榮譽或損害國家利益者"},{"start":10931.54,"end":10933.54,"text":"處五年以上七年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":10933.54,"end":10935.54,"text":"其餘相同"},{"start":10935.54,"end":10937.54,"text":"委員王定宇等提案第24條"},{"start":10937.54,"end":10939.54,"text":"對照行政院提案"},{"start":10939.54,"end":10941.54,"text":"第一、二項同行政院提案"},{"start":10941.54,"end":10943.54,"text":"第三項,處默劇修正為"},{"start":10943.54,"end":10945.54,"text":"除二年以上七年以下有期徒刑外"},{"start":10945.54,"end":10947.54,"text":"其餘同行政院提案第五項"},{"start":10947.54,"end":10949.54,"text":"前三項之未遂犯法之"},{"start":10949.54,"end":10951.54,"text":"預備或模範"},{"start":10951.54,"end":10953.54,"text":"前三項之罪者"},{"start":10953.54,"end":10955.54,"text":"處一年以上五年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":10955.54,"end":10957.54,"text":"委員張雅玲等提案第24條"},{"start":10957.54,"end":10959.54,"text":"同行政院提案"},{"start":10959.54,"end":10961.54,"text":"委員李坤城等提案第24條"},{"start":10961.54,"end":10963.54,"text":"對照行政院提案,處第二項默劇修正為"},{"start":10963.54,"end":10965.54,"text":"處五年以上十年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":10965.54,"end":10967.54,"text":"第四項默劇修正為"},{"start":10967.54,"end":10969.54,"text":"處一年以上五年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":10969.54,"end":10973.54,"text":"及第五項默劇修正為處三年以上七年以下有期徒刑外"},{"start":10973.54,"end":10975.54,"text":"其餘相同"},{"start":10975.24,"end":10977.24,"text":"委員陳蘇越等提案第24條"},{"start":10977.24,"end":10982.24,"text":"對照委員李坤城等提案,處第五項手具與圖畫後分裂、遁號影像外其餘相同"},{"start":10982.24,"end":10984.24,"text":"委員郭育芹等提案第24條"},{"start":10984.24,"end":10987.24,"text":"對照行政院提案,處第五項手具修正為"},{"start":10987.24,"end":10994.24,"text":"以言語舉動、文字、圖畫、影像、電視記錄、通訊服務、科技方法或其他方式對提人微笑中之表示外"},{"start":10994.24,"end":10995.24,"text":"其餘相同"},{"start":10995.24,"end":10997.24,"text":"委員沈發慧等提案第24條"},{"start":10997.24,"end":10998.24,"text":"同行政院提案"},{"start":10998.24,"end":11000.24,"text":"委員何新淳等提案第24條"},{"start":11000.24,"end":11001.24,"text":"同委員陳蘇越等提案"},{"start":11001.24,"end":11003.24,"text":"委員陳冠霖等提案第24條"},{"start":11003.24,"end":11005.24,"text":"對照行政院提案,處第五項修正為"},{"start":11005.24,"end":11008.24,"text":"以言語舉動、文字、圖畫、影像或其他方式為"},{"start":11008.24,"end":11009.24,"text":"敵人微笑中之表示"},{"start":11009.24,"end":11011.24,"text":"足以身均事實上之不利益者"},{"start":11011.24,"end":11014.24,"text":"處一項清理下有期徒刑,其餘相同"},{"start":11014.24,"end":11015.24,"text":"討論事項第二案"},{"start":11015.24,"end":11017.24,"text":"冰岸審查行政院含金審議"},{"start":11017.24,"end":11019.24,"text":"陸海公罪刑法第54條"},{"start":11019.24,"end":11021.24,"text":"條文修正草案等25案"},{"start":11021.24,"end":11023.24,"text":"行政院提案第54條"},{"start":11023.24,"end":11027.24,"text":"第一項虛聞及第12款同線刑條文"},{"start":11027.24,"end":11028.24,"text":"修正第二項入下"},{"start":11028.24,"end":11031.24,"text":"駕駛動力交通工具而有下令進行追責"},{"start":11031.24,"end":11033.24,"text":"處五項有期徒刑的賓客"},{"start":11033.24,"end":11034.24,"text":"60萬以下罰金"},{"start":11034.24,"end":11036.24,"text":"第二項第12款分別同線刑條文"},{"start":11036.24,"end":11037.24,"text":"第一項第34款"},{"start":11037.24,"end":11040.24,"text":"第三項除首具聲列犯第一項之罪"},{"start":11040.24,"end":11042.24,"text":"其餘同線刑條文第二項"},{"start":11042.24,"end":11043.24,"text":"第四項修正入下"},{"start":11043.24,"end":11044.24,"text":"犯第二項之罪"},{"start":11045.65,"end":11046.65,"text":"因而致人於死者"},{"start":11046.65,"end":11048.65,"text":"處五年以上10年以下有期徒刑的賓客"},{"start":11048.65,"end":11049.65,"text":"320萬以下罰金"},{"start":11049.65,"end":11052.65,"text":"致重傷者處3年以上10年以下有期徒刑的賓客"},{"start":11052.65,"end":11054.65,"text":"220萬以下罰金"},{"start":11054.65,"end":11056.65,"text":"第五項同線刑條文第三項"},{"start":11056.65,"end":11058.65,"text":"增電第六項第七項分別入下"},{"start":11058.65,"end":11061.65,"text":"曾犯本條或刑法第180條之三之罪"},{"start":11061.65,"end":11066.65,"text":"經有罪判決確定或經緩起訴決處分確定"},{"start":11066.65,"end":11068.65,"text":"於逾10年內再犯第二項之罪"},{"start":11068.65,"end":11069.65,"text":"而因而致人於死者"},{"start":11069.65,"end":11071.65,"text":"處無期徒刑或7年以上有期徒刑的賓客"},{"start":11071.65,"end":11073.65,"text":"420萬以下罰金"},{"start":11073.65,"end":11076.65,"text":"致重傷者處五年以上10年以下有期徒刑的賓客"},{"start":11076.65,"end":11077.65,"text":"320萬以下罰金"},{"start":11077.65,"end":11079.65,"text":"犯前四項之罪"},{"start":11079.65,"end":11081.65,"text":"其所駕駛之動力交通工具"},{"start":11081.65,"end":11083.65,"text":"屬於犯罪行為人或屬於犯罪行為人以外"},{"start":11083.65,"end":11085.65,"text":"是自然人、法人或非法人團體而誤"},{"start":11085.65,"end":11088.65,"text":"正當理由提供或取得者沒收之"},{"start":11088.65,"end":11091.65,"text":"於全部或一部不能沒收或不宜執行沒收時"},{"start":11091.65,"end":11094.65,"text":"追徵其假而並準用第三八條之二"},{"start":11094.65,"end":11097.65,"text":"第三八條之三第四十條第三項規定"},{"start":11097.65,"end":11099.65,"text":"第八項同線刑條文第四項"},{"start":11099.65,"end":11101.65,"text":"委員黃秀芳等提案第五十四條出"},{"start":11101.65,"end":11103.65,"text":"第二項前段修正為"},{"start":11103.65,"end":11105.65,"text":"因而致人與死者處七年以上有期徒刑的"},{"start":11105.65,"end":11107.65,"text":"賓客清台幣二百萬以下罰金"},{"start":11107.65,"end":11110.65,"text":"及第三項中段修正為十年以上有期徒刑的"},{"start":11110.65,"end":11112.65,"text":"賓客清台幣三百二十萬以上罰金"},{"start":11112.65,"end":11114.65,"text":"外其餘同線刑條文"},{"start":11114.65,"end":11116.65,"text":"委員黃毅春等提案第五十四條"},{"start":11116.65,"end":11117.65,"text":"追照行政院提案"},{"start":11117.65,"end":11120.65,"text":"處將第三項及第四項合併為第三項外"},{"start":11120.65,"end":11121.65,"text":"第三項中段修正為"},{"start":11121.65,"end":11125.65,"text":"犯第二項之罪的因而致人與死者處十年以上有期徒刑"},{"start":11125.65,"end":11127.65,"text":"第四項對照線刑條文第三項"},{"start":11127.65,"end":11129.65,"text":"於後段增練犯第二項之罪"},{"start":11129.65,"end":11132.65,"text":"因而致人與死者處十年以上有期徒刑的"},{"start":11132.65,"end":11134.65,"text":"賓客清台幣三百二十萬以下罰金"},{"start":11134.65,"end":11137.65,"text":"致中傷者處三年以上十年以下有期徒刑的"},{"start":11137.65,"end":11141.65,"text":"賓客清台幣二百二十萬以下罰金等文字"},{"start":11141.65,"end":11143.65,"text":"第五項同線刑條文第四項"},{"start":11144.91,"end":11146.91,"text":"委員黎淑芬等提案第五十四條"},{"start":11146.91,"end":11147.91,"text":"同行政院提案"},{"start":11147.91,"end":11149.91,"text":"委員羅志強等提案第五十四條"},{"start":11149.91,"end":11150.91,"text":"對照行政院提案"},{"start":11150.91,"end":11154.91,"text":"處條文中的法禁刑軍刪除新台幣等文字外"},{"start":11154.91,"end":11156.91,"text":"及第六項後段修正為"},{"start":11156.91,"end":11158.91,"text":"得賓客五百二十萬以下罰金"},{"start":11158.91,"end":11161.91,"text":"致中傷者處五年以上十年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":11161.91,"end":11164.91,"text":"得賓客四百二十萬以下罰金外其餘相同"},{"start":11164.91,"end":11166.91,"text":"委員郭育芹等委員林切奇等"},{"start":11166.91,"end":11167.91,"text":"提案第五十四條"},{"start":11167.91,"end":11168.91,"text":"均同行政院提案"},{"start":11168.91,"end":11170.91,"text":"委員李燕秀等提案第五十四條"},{"start":11170.91,"end":11171.91,"text":"對照行政院提案"},{"start":11171.91,"end":11172.91,"text":"處第二項修正為"},{"start":11172.91,"end":11175.91,"text":"致中傷者處七年以上十年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":11175.91,"end":11178.91,"text":"得賓客新台幣二百二十萬以下罰金"},{"start":11178.91,"end":11180.91,"text":"及第四項中段修正為"},{"start":11180.91,"end":11183.91,"text":"得賓客新台幣五百二十萬以下罰金"},{"start":11183.91,"end":11186.91,"text":"致中傷者處三年以上十年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":11186.91,"end":11188.91,"text":"得賓客新台幣三百二十萬以下罰金"},{"start":11188.91,"end":11190.91,"text":"及第六項後段修正為"},{"start":11190.91,"end":11192.91,"text":"處五期徒刑或十年以上有期徒刑"},{"start":11192.91,"end":11194.91,"text":"得賓客新台幣一千零二十萬以下罰金"},{"start":11194.91,"end":11197.91,"text":"致中傷者處七年以上十年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":11197.91,"end":11199.91,"text":"得賓客新台幣五百二十萬以下罰金"},{"start":11199.91,"end":11201.91,"text":"及第七項首具修正為"},{"start":11201.91,"end":11203.91,"text":"犯第二項至第六項之罪外其餘相同"},{"start":11203.91,"end":11205.91,"text":"委員許宇甄等提案第五十四條"},{"start":11205.91,"end":11207.91,"text":"追照行政院提案處第四項修正為"},{"start":11207.91,"end":11210.91,"text":"犯第二項之罪因而致人於死者"},{"start":11210.91,"end":11212.91,"text":"處死刑無期徒刑或十年以上有期徒刑"},{"start":11212.91,"end":11215.91,"text":"得賓客新台幣三百四十萬以下罰金"},{"start":11215.91,"end":11218.91,"text":"致中傷者處十三年以上十年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":11218.91,"end":11221.91,"text":"得賓客新台幣二百四十萬以下罰金"},{"start":11221.91,"end":11223.91,"text":"及第六項中段修正為"},{"start":11223.91,"end":11225.91,"text":"處死刑無期徒刑或十年以上有期徒刑"},{"start":11225.91,"end":11226.91,"text":"外其餘相同"},{"start":11226.91,"end":11228.91,"text":"委員萬美玲等提案第五十四條"},{"start":11228.91,"end":11230.91,"text":"對照行政院提案處第四項修正為"},{"start":11230.91,"end":11232.91,"text":"犯第二項之罪因而致人於死者"},{"start":11232.91,"end":11234.91,"text":"處死刑無期徒刑或十年以上有期徒刑"},{"start":11234.91,"end":11236.91,"text":"得賓客新台幣六百萬以下罰金"},{"start":11236.91,"end":11238.91,"text":"致中傷者處五年以上十年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":11238.91,"end":11240.91,"text":"得賓客新台幣三百萬以下罰金"},{"start":11240.91,"end":11242.91,"text":"第六項修正為"},{"start":11242.91,"end":11244.91,"text":"懲犯本條或刑法第一百八十五條之三之罪"},{"start":11244.91,"end":11246.91,"text":"經有罪判決確定或經緩起訴確定"},{"start":11253.23,"end":11255.23,"text":"或經緩起訴處犯決定"},{"start":11255.23,"end":11257.23,"text":"與十年內再犯第二項之罪因而致人於受傷者"},{"start":11257.23,"end":11259.23,"text":"處無期徒刑或七年以上有期徒刑"},{"start":11259.23,"end":11261.23,"text":"得賓客新台幣五百萬以下罰金"},{"start":11261.23,"end":11262.23,"text":"外其餘相同"},{"start":11262.23,"end":11264.23,"text":"委員張宏祿等提案第五十四條對照行政院提案"},{"start":11264.23,"end":11266.23,"text":"第二項處手續相處第一項"},{"start":11266.23,"end":11268.23,"text":"犯第一項之罪等文字外其餘相同"},{"start":11268.23,"end":11270.23,"text":"第三項同行政院提案第五項"},{"start":11270.23,"end":11272.23,"text":"第四項處手續修正為犯前三項之罪"},{"start":11272.23,"end":11274.23,"text":"外其餘同行政院提案第七項"},{"start":11274.23,"end":11276.23,"text":"第五項同行政院提案第八項"},{"start":11276.23,"end":11278.23,"text":"分定第五十四條之一"},{"start":11278.23,"end":11280.23,"text":"第一項同行政院提案第八項"},{"start":11280.23,"end":11282.23,"text":"分定第五十四條之一"},{"start":11282.23,"end":11284.23,"text":"第一項同行政院提案第五十四條"},{"start":11284.23,"end":11286.23,"text":"第二項第一款手續處修正為"},{"start":11286.23,"end":11288.23,"text":"脫嬰藥液或血液"},{"start":11288.23,"end":11290.23,"text":"所含毒品外其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":11290.23,"end":11292.23,"text":"第二項對照行政院提案第五十四條"},{"start":11292.23,"end":11294.23,"text":"第三項處手續修正為因而致人於受傷者"},{"start":11294.23,"end":11296.23,"text":"處七年以上有期徒刑外其餘相同"},{"start":11296.23,"end":11298.23,"text":"第三項同行政院提案第五十四條"},{"start":11298.23,"end":11300.23,"text":"第六項"},{"start":11300.23,"end":11302.23,"text":"第四項對照行政院提案第五十四條"},{"start":11302.23,"end":11304.23,"text":"第七項處手續修正為犯前三項之罪"},{"start":11304.23,"end":11306.23,"text":"外其餘相同"},{"start":11306.23,"end":11308.23,"text":"第三項同行政院提案第五十四條第八項"},{"start":11308.23,"end":11310.23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},{"start":12466.78,"end":12468.78,"text":"一定是有意義的動作"},{"start":12468.78,"end":12470.78,"text":"不是故意,不然就是過失"},{"start":12470.78,"end":12472.78,"text":"有這樣的一個行為你才會去處罰"},{"start":12472.78,"end":12474.78,"text":"那你要去處罰到一個過失行為的話"},{"start":12474.78,"end":12476.78,"text":"一定是法律有規範"},{"start":12476.78,"end":12478.78,"text":"有規範才會去處罰你"},{"start":12478.78,"end":12480.78,"text":"過失"},{"start":12480.78,"end":12482.78,"text":"那你去看這個24條的部分"},{"start":12482.78,"end":12484.78,"text":"這個就沒有好玩的問題"},{"start":12484.78,"end":12486.78,"text":"你說我是基於好玩"},{"start":12488.46,"end":12490.46,"text":"你這樣你是故意的"},{"start":12490.46,"end":12492.46,"text":"還是過失"},{"start":12492.39,"end":12494.39,"text":"這就沒有跟你說過失"},{"start":12494.39,"end":12496.39,"text":"就沒有跟你說這個"},{"start":12496.39,"end":12498.39,"text":"因為過失犯的處罰裡面"},{"start":12498.39,"end":12500.39,"text":"是以法律有明文規定者為限"},{"start":12500.39,"end":12502.39,"text":"那你說這個行為裡面"},{"start":12502.39,"end":12504.39,"text":"你說要把它加進去"},{"start":12504.39,"end":12506.39,"text":"像司法院講的說"},{"start":12506.39,"end":12508.39,"text":"或者說林怡錦委員"},{"start":12508.39,"end":12510.39,"text":"或者陳冠廷委員"},{"start":12510.39,"end":12512.39,"text":"還是翁委員你也一直提到說"},{"start":12512.39,"end":12514.39,"text":"逐升軍事上不利益"},{"start":12514.39,"end":12516.39,"text":"這個可以接受"},{"start":12516.39,"end":12518.39,"text":"這個就是說"},{"start":12518.39,"end":12520.39,"text":"還是要產生"},{"start":12520.39,"end":12522.39,"text":"產生對軍事上有一定的不利益"},{"start":12522.39,"end":12524.39,"text":"這個可能比較容易達到共識"},{"start":12524.39,"end":12526.39,"text":"朝野之間的一個共識"},{"start":12526.39,"end":12528.39,"text":"但是因為軍人"},{"start":12528.39,"end":12530.39,"text":"軍人你說我去幫他們效忠"},{"start":12530.39,"end":12532.39,"text":"尤其是"},{"start":12533.46,"end":12535.46,"text":"你說我是在開玩笑"},{"start":12535.46,"end":12537.46,"text":"我不是在效忠"},{"start":12537.46,"end":12539.46,"text":"這是叛國投敵"},{"start":12539.46,"end":12541.46,"text":"因為我知道翁委員的意思"},{"start":12541.46,"end":12543.46,"text":"你肯認這樣的一個"},{"start":12543.46,"end":12545.46,"text":"規範的意義"},{"start":12545.46,"end":12547.46,"text":"但是你就認為應該不用那麼重"},{"start":12547.46,"end":12549.46,"text":"是 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"end":12755.63,"text":"對不對"},{"start":12755.63,"end":12757.63,"text":"或是跟其他的敵國投敵"},{"start":12757.63,"end":12759.63,"text":"那降敵的話"},{"start":12759.88,"end":12761.88,"text":"所以這個部分是不是"},{"start":12761.88,"end":12763.88,"text":"我們請國防部來解釋一下"},{"start":12763.88,"end":12765.88,"text":"到底你這邊投敵降敵"},{"start":12765.88,"end":12767.88,"text":"跟對敵人為效忠的表示"},{"start":12767.88,"end":12769.88,"text":"你們會實際上"},{"start":12769.88,"end":12771.88,"text":"要怎麼樣去區別這幾種不同的行為態樣"},{"start":12773.61,"end":12775.61,"text":"因為我們如果剛剛講的情況"},{"start":12775.61,"end":12777.61,"text":"事實上好像似乎"},{"start":12777.61,"end":12779.61,"text":"嚴重的話就都是屬於降敵啦"},{"start":12780.28,"end":12782.28,"text":"但是表達效忠"},{"start":12782.28,"end":12784.28,"text":"我這邊要去分啦"},{"start":12784.28,"end":12786.28,"text":"這邊要怎麼去"},{"start":12785.37,"end":12793.1,"text":"誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒誒�"},{"start":12794,"end":12794.72,"text":"投敵"},{"start":12794.72,"end":12795.24,"text":"然後"},{"start":12795.24,"end":12795.68,"text":"降敵"},{"start":12795.68,"end":12796.92,"text":"可不可以都舉個例子"},{"start":12796.92,"end":12798.24,"text":"然後以其第五項"},{"start":12798.48,"end":12800,"text":"對敵人效忠的表示"},{"start":12800,"end":12801.52,"text":"足以深軍事上不利"},{"start":12801.52,"end":12803.04,"text":"然後在部隊上面可能"},{"start":12803.04,"end":12805.48,"text":"實際出現的案例會是什麼樣的狀況"},{"start":12805.48,"end":12807.2,"text":"投降這應該沒舉例了吧"},{"start":12807.2,"end":12808.6,"text":"這投降的就這樣"},{"start":12808.6,"end":12809.64,"text":"是主席委員"},{"start":12809.64,"end":12810.4,"text":"各位報告"},{"start":12810.4,"end":12811.92,"text":"其實我們這個第一項"},{"start":12811.92,"end":12813.28,"text":"所謂的一個投敵罪"},{"start":12813.72,"end":12816.04,"text":"他就主要是投入敵人的勢力範圍"},{"start":12816.04,"end":12817.44,"text":"受其的指揮支配"},{"start":12818.04,"end":12819.6,"text":"那降敵是你不盡情"},{"start":12819.6,"end":12822.04,"text":"你因盡之責而降敵"},{"start":12822.04,"end":12822.6,"text":"就是說"},{"start":12822.640000000001,"end":12824,"text":"我應該派部隊去"},{"start":12824.44,"end":12825.16,"text":"去抗敵"},{"start":12825.16,"end":12826.2,"text":"但是我就不派"},{"start":12826.48,"end":12828.76,"text":"然後你還有主動表示降敵的意思"},{"start":12828.76,"end":12829.84,"text":"這就是降敵罪"},{"start":12829.84,"end":12831.84,"text":"當然預備陰謀就是我們"},{"start":12833.470000000001,"end":12835.39,"text":"我們後面第四項"},{"start":12835.39,"end":12836.15,"text":"有預備陰謀"},{"start":12836.15,"end":12836.79,"text":"我們有加"},{"start":12836.79,"end":12838.15,"text":"那六個月上五年以下"},{"start":12838.51,"end":12838.99,"text":"但是"},{"start":12839.31,"end":12840.87,"text":"我現在要跟委員報告的"},{"start":12840.87,"end":12841.35,"text":"就是"},{"start":12841.35,"end":12842.83,"text":"剛才主席有提到"},{"start":12842.83,"end":12844.27,"text":"按照憲法上面的規定"},{"start":12844.27,"end":12846.91,"text":"其實軍人對國家是要有絕對的忠誠"},{"start":12847.53,"end":12848.89,"text":"那我們現在就是"},{"start":12848.89,"end":12851.17,"text":"看到現在中共現在滲透的手法"},{"start":12851.17,"end":12853.41,"text":"那我們就發現在軍刑法上面"},{"start":12853.41,"end":12854.05,"text":"有關於"},{"start":12854.85,"end":12857.210000000001,"text":"對敵人效忠表示這個是漏位規範"},{"start":12857.45,"end":12857.77,"text":"那"},{"start":12858.09,"end":12860.25,"text":"尤其是參考到軍刑法"},{"start":12860.25,"end":12861.57,"text":"違反效忠國家"},{"start":12861.57,"end":12864.050000000001,"text":"職責罪章整體的法定的級距"},{"start":12864.37,"end":12865.41,"text":"所以我們建議"},{"start":12865.41,"end":12867.01,"text":"是說這個定在一年以上"},{"start":12867.01,"end":12868.81,"text":"七年以下有期徒刑是比較"},{"start":12869.09,"end":12869.85,"text":"為適當"},{"start":12870.210000000001,"end":12871.33,"text":"就如同剛才"},{"start":12871.81,"end":12873.09,"text":"我剛才跟各位報告"},{"start":12873.09,"end":12875.85,"text":"預備跟陰謀犯都要判六個月以上五年以下"},{"start":12875.85,"end":12877.65,"text":"這只是預備跟陰謀而已"},{"start":12878.050000000001,"end":12879.01,"text":"然而"},{"start":12879.130000000001,"end":12880.57,"text":"為敵人表示效忠他是"},{"start":12880.57,"end":12882.17,"text":"把行為已經具體化了"},{"start":12882.25,"end":12883.69,"text":"所以我們認為這個法定刑"},{"start":12883.69,"end":12884.61,"text":"應該是要"},{"start":12884.77,"end":12886.650000000001,"text":"調整到一年以上七年以下"},{"start":12887.050000000001,"end":12887.37,"text":"那"},{"start":12887.61,"end":12889.57,"text":"另外剛剛翁委員所提及的"},{"start":12889.57,"end":12891.970000000001,"text":"是不是這個法定刑定得太重"},{"start":12892.33,"end":12893.650000000001,"text":"我可以跟翁委員報告"},{"start":12893.85,"end":12894.57,"text":"法定刑"},{"start":12894.810000000001,"end":12896.33,"text":"定一年以上七年以下"},{"start":12896.650000000001,"end":12897.970000000001,"text":"那如果是說他"},{"start":12898.37,"end":12900.49,"text":"被察覺之後放後有回憶"},{"start":12900.69,"end":12902.85,"text":"那法院如果判兩年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":12902.85,"end":12904.01,"text":"他是可以緩刑的"},{"start":12904.25,"end":12904.93,"text":"也是可以"},{"start":12904.93,"end":12907.17,"text":"也是有給他一個自信的機會的"},{"start":12907.84,"end":12908.24,"text":"對"},{"start":12908.93,"end":12910.69,"text":"他如果是判兩年以下有期徒刑的話"},{"start":12910.69,"end":12911.53,"text":"是可以緩刑"},{"start":12911.77,"end":12912.93,"text":"還是有緩刑的機會"},{"start":12913.17,"end":12914.65,"text":"那另外就跟委員報告一下"},{"start":12914.65,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翁委員就這樣"},{"start":13096.42,"end":13098.42,"text":"加進來也尊重司法院的意見"},{"start":13098.42,"end":13100.42,"text":"各種要件的話"},{"start":13100.42,"end":13102.42,"text":"就變成趨於嚴格啦"},{"start":13102.42,"end":13104.42,"text":"對主以身軍事上的不利益"},{"start":13104.42,"end":13106.42,"text":"這個部分我贊同"},{"start":13106.42,"end":13108.42,"text":"這個大家都可以接受"},{"start":13108.42,"end":13110.42,"text":"現在真的問題出在"},{"start":13110.42,"end":13112.42,"text":"翁委員因為說這個501"},{"start":13112.42,"end":13114.42,"text":"請翁委員再思考一下"},{"start":13114.42,"end":13116.42,"text":"就是說你會碰到"},{"start":13115.89,"end":13117.89,"text":"你看我們態度就開放"},{"start":13117.89,"end":13119.89,"text":"就是說我們讓過程要件"},{"start":13119.89,"end":13121.89,"text":"比較更嚴格一點的"},{"start":13121.89,"end":13123.89,"text":"我們就讓它更嚴格一點"},{"start":13123.89,"end":13125.89,"text":"但是基於軍人特殊的一個地位"},{"start":13125.89,"end":13127.89,"text":"憲法138條裡面"},{"start":13127.89,"end":13129.89,"text":"軍人本來就是要保衛國家"},{"start":13129.89,"end":13131.89,"text":"軍人在開玩笑跟一般民眾開玩笑"},{"start":13131.89,"end":13133.89,"text":"不一樣啦 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沒關係"},{"start":13205.61,"end":13207.61,"text":"沒有 沒有 這個是"},{"start":13207.61,"end":13209.61,"text":"涉及到政治意識的判斷"},{"start":13209.61,"end":13211.61,"text":"這個我尊重 但是問題"},{"start":13211.61,"end":13213.61,"text":"我擔心的是第五項跟第四項"},{"start":13213.61,"end":13215.61,"text":"你這個法理上"},{"start":13215.61,"end":13217.61,"text":"我認為是"},{"start":13217.61,"end":13219.61,"text":"有一點講不通 但沒關係"},{"start":13219.61,"end":13221.61,"text":"我們就把過程要件的部分"},{"start":13221.61,"end":13223.61,"text":"現在就達成共識的部分"},{"start":13223.61,"end":13225.61,"text":"這樣這個要怎麼處理"},{"start":13226.84,"end":13228.84,"text":"就是自身"},{"start":13228.84,"end":13230.84,"text":"族生"},{"start":13230.84,"end":13232.84,"text":"軍事上的不利"},{"start":13232.84,"end":13234.84,"text":"這個加進來嘛"},{"start":13234.42,"end":13236.42,"text":"但是條文的部分"},{"start":13237.47,"end":13239.47,"text":"這樣就沒有這個版本了"},{"start":13239.97,"end":13241.97,"text":"沒有這個版本了"},{"start":13243.33,"end":13245.33,"text":"你的修正動議"},{"start":13245.33,"end":13247.33,"text":"沒有你現在戰勝的"},{"start":13247.33,"end":13249.33,"text":"把族生"},{"start":13249.45,"end":13251.45,"text":"有有有 你的有"},{"start":13251.45,"end":13253.45,"text":"你也有 你也有"},{"start":13253.45,"end":13255.45,"text":"現在就是先補你好了"},{"start":13256.44,"end":13258.44,"text":"這樣就四條了就補你了"},{"start":13259.29,"end":13261.29,"text":"沒有關係我們就"},{"start":13262.57,"end":13264.57,"text":"來 陳道士委員"},{"start":13264.57,"end":13266.57,"text":"這個誰專業的來 換你"},{"start":13266.57,"end":13268.57,"text":"我現在看這個"},{"start":13268.57,"end":13270.57,"text":"全程講台語這樣我就欣賞"},{"start":13270.57,"end":13272.57,"text":"我看你說有路嗎"},{"start":13272.57,"end":13274.57,"text":"我聽不懂有沒有"},{"start":13274.57,"end":13276.57,"text":"你的法律都用台語講"},{"start":13276.57,"end":13278.57,"text":"行政院版的"},{"start":13278.57,"end":13280.57,"text":"因為你是有犯罪的程度"},{"start":13280.57,"end":13282.57,"text":"擺下來"},{"start":13282.57,"end":13284.57,"text":"不是犯罪 犯罪"},{"start":13284.57,"end":13286.57,"text":"投敵嘛 降敵"},{"start":13286.57,"end":13288.57,"text":"這樣擺"},{"start":13288.57,"end":13290.57,"text":"結果你說最壞一項"},{"start":13290.57,"end":13292.57,"text":"你有誰最壞吃得更重"},{"start":13292.57,"end":13294.57,"text":"你最重怎麼放在那裡吃"},{"start":13294.57,"end":13296.57,"text":"你怎麼不是到第四項"},{"start":13296.6,"end":13298.6,"text":"拼圈"},{"start":13297.67,"end":13299.67,"text":"你的安排"},{"start":13299.67,"end":13301.67,"text":"你的邏輯就怪怪"},{"start":13301.67,"end":13303.67,"text":"沒有啦 不是"},{"start":13303.67,"end":13305.67,"text":"是這樣嗎 沒有錯"},{"start":13305.67,"end":13307.67,"text":"他這個陰謀啊 還在我們那邊比嘛"},{"start":13307.67,"end":13309.67,"text":"預備跟陰謀是不是"},{"start":13309.67,"end":13311.67,"text":"聽到你的意思啦"},{"start":13311.67,"end":13313.67,"text":"他是這個六個月以上 五年以下"},{"start":13313.67,"end":13315.67,"text":"這個你說會說那麼嚴重"},{"start":13315.67,"end":13317.67,"text":"他那個第四項是在"},{"start":13317.67,"end":13319.67,"text":"針對第一項跟第二項"},{"start":13319.67,"end":13321.67,"text":"第一項跟第二項"},{"start":13321.67,"end":13323.67,"text":"所以當然他會敗在那裡"},{"start":13323.67,"end":13325.67,"text":"當然你第四項"},{"start":13325.67,"end":13327.67,"text":"第五項的阿伯也可以啊"},{"start":13327.67,"end":13329.67,"text":"也沒有矛盾啊"},{"start":13329.67,"end":13331.67,"text":"你要把他放到最後一項也沒有矛盾啊"},{"start":13332.85,"end":13334.85,"text":"如果你要把他放到最後一項"},{"start":13334.85,"end":13336.85,"text":"不然我們就拉到後面也沒關係啊"},{"start":13336.85,"end":13338.85,"text":"再一項嚴重就可以再來"},{"start":13338.85,"end":13340.85,"text":"可以啊 通啊"},{"start":13340.85,"end":13342.85,"text":"那個是相似的安排啊"},{"start":13342.85,"end":13344.85,"text":"講得通就可以啊"},{"start":13346.22,"end":13348.22,"text":"啊"},{"start":13348.32,"end":13350.32,"text":"是啦 也是照新度來的"},{"start":13350.32,"end":13352.32,"text":"不是啦 邏輯上也通啦"},{"start":13352.32,"end":13354.32,"text":"這樣這條我們第四條保留 好不好"},{"start":13356.36,"end":13358.36,"text":"來 我們接著處理"},{"start":13358.36,"end":13360.36,"text":"委員針對第一案"},{"start":13360.36,"end":13362.36,"text":"所提的附帶決議一案"},{"start":13362.36,"end":13364.36,"text":"那由於已經宣讀"},{"start":13364.36,"end":13366.36,"text":"我們現在來進行處理"},{"start":13366.36,"end":13368.36,"text":"附帶決議第一案"},{"start":13368.36,"end":13370.36,"text":"請問提案的委員有沒有補充說明"},{"start":13370.36,"end":13372.36,"text":"這是誰的"},{"start":13372.19,"end":13374.19,"text":"我到現在提案委員不在耶"},{"start":13374.55,"end":13376.55,"text":"不在附帶請問機關"},{"start":13376.55,"end":13378.55,"text":"有沒有什麼特別的說明"},{"start":13378.97,"end":13380.97,"text":"有疑慮的地方"},{"start":13382.33,"end":13384.33,"text":"你如果有疑慮我就保留"},{"start":13384.33,"end":13386.33,"text":"你如果沒有我就尊重"},{"start":13387.66,"end":13389.66,"text":"尊重委員的提議"},{"start":13389.87,"end":13391.87,"text":"OK 那這個就"},{"start":13391.87,"end":13393.87,"text":"附帶決議"},{"start":13393.87,"end":13395.87,"text":"就這樣就一議討論好"},{"start":13395.87,"end":13397.87,"text":"也沒有修正啦 這樣就照案通過了"},{"start":13401.58,"end":13403.58,"text":"來 本案逐條均已處理完畢"},{"start":13403.58,"end":13405.58,"text":"做以下宣告"},{"start":13405.58,"end":13407.58,"text":"本案審查完畢凝聚審查報告"},{"start":13407.58,"end":13409.58,"text":"提醒院會公決"},{"start":13409.58,"end":13411.58,"text":"本案是否需交由黨團協商"},{"start":13411.91,"end":13413.91,"text":"黨團協商啦 OK 好"},{"start":13413.91,"end":13417.91,"text":"院會討論的時候由莊召集委員瑞雄出席說明"},{"start":13417.91,"end":13420.91,"text":"附帶決議一項一併提報院會處理"},{"start":13420.91,"end":13423.91,"text":"條次引述條文"},{"start":13423.91,"end":13430.91,"text":"部分文字及法字用字用語授權主席跟議事人員來做整理"},{"start":13430.91,"end":13434.91,"text":"我們接著進行討論事項第二案"},{"start":13434.91,"end":13436.91,"text":"來併案審查行政院"},{"start":13436.91,"end":13440.91,"text":"含請審議陸海空軍刑法第54條條文修正草案"},{"start":13440.91,"end":13442.91,"text":"一共25條"},{"start":13442.91,"end":13444.91,"text":"請問在場委員"},{"start":13446,"end":13448,"text":"我們是不是要進一 進一條啦 好不好"},{"start":13450.45,"end":13452.45,"text":"來"},{"start":13467.72,"end":13469.72,"text":"有一個獨家的修正案"},{"start":13469.72,"end":13471.72,"text":"那只是說現在"},{"start":13473.13,"end":13475.13,"text":"獨家的那個部分暫時沒有處理"},{"start":13475.13,"end":13477.13,"text":"然後所以陸海空軍刑法的部分"},{"start":13478.52,"end":13480.52,"text":"需要就是之後"},{"start":13481.64,"end":13483.64,"text":"再一起討論"},{"start":13484.47,"end":13486.47,"text":"那我們就"},{"start":13485.94,"end":13487.94,"text":"那實際上也沒有討論"},{"start":13489.5,"end":13491.5,"text":"其實"},{"start":13491.5,"end":13493.5,"text":"你那邊也還沒討論"},{"start":13494.34,"end":13496.34,"text":"現在是還好啦 先討論還好啦"},{"start":13497.45,"end":13499.45,"text":"好啊 要不就 討論"},{"start":13499.45,"end":13501.45,"text":"還好 還好 還好"},{"start":13501.45,"end":13503.45,"text":"放心啦 我會很公平的處理啦"},{"start":13503.45,"end":13506.45,"text":"我們先來 如果你有意見的時候"},{"start":13506.45,"end":13508.45,"text":"你就提出你們的主張"},{"start":13508.45,"end":13510.45,"text":"OK 好不好"},{"start":13510.8,"end":13512.8,"text":"啊 欸 難道"},{"start":13513.97,"end":13515.97,"text":"這樣 病案審查"},{"start":13515.97,"end":13518.97,"text":"陸海空軍刑法第54條條文的修正草案"},{"start":13518.97,"end":13520.97,"text":"一共25案"},{"start":13520.97,"end":13522.97,"text":"繼續來進行逐條討論喔"},{"start":13522.97,"end":13524.97,"text":"那本案部分修正"},{"start":13524.97,"end":13526.97,"text":"這 唉 剛好討論的多"},{"start":13526.97,"end":13528.97,"text":"這樣怎麼就兩條呢"},{"start":13530.44,"end":13532.44,"text":"好 那我們現在"},{"start":13532.44,"end":13534.44,"text":"第54條"},{"start":13534.44,"end":13536.44,"text":"這就是提高"},{"start":13536.44,"end":13538.44,"text":"獨駕行為的刑度"},{"start":13538.44,"end":13540.44,"text":"跟罰金"},{"start":13540.44,"end":13542.44,"text":"增訂有關沒收跟行為人"},{"start":13542.44,"end":13544.44,"text":"駕駛動力交通工具的規定"},{"start":13544.44,"end":13546.44,"text":"那請來"},{"start":13546.44,"end":13548.44,"text":"各位委員有沒有什麼樣的意見"},{"start":13551.38,"end":13554.38,"text":"我建議就是說這個條文就保留吧"},{"start":13554.38,"end":13556.38,"text":"因為我們之後還有"},{"start":13556.38,"end":13558.38,"text":"配合刑法的修正"},{"start":13558.38,"end":13560.38,"text":"然後兩邊的條文的"},{"start":13560.38,"end":13562.38,"text":"以及這個相關的法定性最好一致是比較好"},{"start":13562.38,"end":13564.38,"text":"嗯 但是你這樣"},{"start":13564.38,"end":13567.38,"text":"你這裡沒有修理兩破"},{"start":13568.95,"end":13570.95,"text":"你要怎麼兩行都放在一起"},{"start":13570.95,"end":13572.95,"text":"的智慧"},{"start":13573.94,"end":13575.94,"text":"那不關你的"},{"start":13576.14,"end":13578.14,"text":"所以這個有時候分開審"},{"start":13578.14,"end":13580.14,"text":"這個規範的行為太陽是一樣的"},{"start":13580.14,"end":13582.14,"text":"是 啊太陽一樣的"},{"start":13582.14,"end":13584.14,"text":"就是這個地方本來"},{"start":13584.14,"end":13586.14,"text":"也可以先審啦 是啦是可以先審"},{"start":13586.14,"end":13588.14,"text":"有沒有 這裡本來人先審的"},{"start":13588.14,"end":13590.14,"text":"就說你後面要怎麼審"},{"start":13590.14,"end":13592.14,"text":"大家說這樣 要不然的話今天其實"},{"start":13592.14,"end":13594.14,"text":"討論辦理事業室就保留"},{"start":13594.14,"end":13596.14,"text":"因為今天 我沒有意見"},{"start":13596.14,"end":13598.14,"text":"我的意思就是說你現在"},{"start":13598.14,"end":13600.14,"text":"把它保留跟你接下來"},{"start":13600.14,"end":13602.14,"text":"刑法再處理的時候"},{"start":13602.14,"end":13604.14,"text":"也沒有關聯"},{"start":13603.54,"end":13605.54,"text":"也不會因為你刑法那邊通過什麼"},{"start":13605.54,"end":13607.54,"text":"我們兩個定義我們兩個"},{"start":13607.54,"end":13609.54,"text":"這樣進足那個速度沒有意義"},{"start":13609.54,"end":13611.54,"text":"我不會去做這種事"},{"start":13611.54,"end":13613.54,"text":"我不會進足這種事"},{"start":13613.54,"end":13615.54,"text":"就是希望說兩邊能夠討論的"},{"start":13615.54,"end":13617.54,"text":"這個條文的規定啊包含法定性啊"},{"start":13617.54,"end":13619.54,"text":"行為太陽等等的話都可以比較"},{"start":13619.54,"end":13621.54,"text":"去一致會比較好"},{"start":13621.75,"end":13623.75,"text":"可以 我的意思說"},{"start":13623.75,"end":13625.75,"text":"兩邊討論現在就可以討論啊"},{"start":13625.85,"end":13627.85,"text":"我們現在就可以討論了"},{"start":13627.83,"end":13629.83,"text":"我們總不能說這裡不討論"},{"start":13629.83,"end":13631.83,"text":"要去到討論刑法的時候"},{"start":13631.83,"end":13633.83,"text":"像我們陸海公軍刑法還判在那邊"},{"start":13633.83,"end":13635.83,"text":"我們不如將刑法都判在這裡"},{"start":13635.83,"end":13637.83,"text":"一樣的意思"},{"start":13636.99,"end":13638.99,"text":"一樣的意思啊"},{"start":13638.98,"end":13640.98,"text":"好 這樣的問題啊"},{"start":13640.52,"end":13642.52,"text":"我們對法案的審查"},{"start":13642.52,"end":13644.52,"text":"各位委員放心啦"},{"start":13644.52,"end":13646.52,"text":"該踩煞車我一定踩煞車"},{"start":13646.52,"end":13648.52,"text":"反而你們有時候在一黨充的比我還要快"},{"start":13648.52,"end":13650.52,"text":"我都不想給行政部門那麼多武器"},{"start":13650.52,"end":13652.52,"text":"你們偏偏都要給他"},{"start":13655.06,"end":13657.06,"text":"我們給的武器是不一樣的武器"},{"start":13657.06,"end":13659.06,"text":"沒有沒有沒有"},{"start":13659.06,"end":13661.06,"text":"像比如說你們用到"},{"start":13661.06,"end":13663.06,"text":"用到給行政部門的"},{"start":13664.17,"end":13666.17,"text":"涉及到人身的行政部門"},{"start":13666.17,"end":13668.17,"text":"有時候連該給他都不應該給他"},{"start":13669.59,"end":13671.59,"text":"你看"},{"start":13671.59,"end":13673.59,"text":"我知道你上次講的是有關毛法的"},{"start":13673.59,"end":13675.59,"text":"對對對"},{"start":13675.59,"end":13677.59,"text":"所以我們都是一個法院的平衡嗎"},{"start":13677.59,"end":13679.59,"text":"開始比較重視公共安全"},{"start":13679.59,"end":13681.59,"text":"你回去問我們城村政道官"},{"start":13681.59,"end":13683.59,"text":"一定會反對的"},{"start":13683.59,"end":13685.59,"text":"沒有沒有 他都支持我的看法"},{"start":13685.59,"end":13687.59,"text":"行政部門"},{"start":13687.59,"end":13689.59,"text":"他比較早的世界理由書"},{"start":13689.59,"end":13691.59,"text":"你都寫假的"},{"start":13691.59,"end":13693.59,"text":"我們的夫妻意見可能會有些不一樣"},{"start":13693.59,"end":13695.59,"text":"但是在很多的法律觀點上面我們是一致的"},{"start":13695.59,"end":13697.59,"text":"是啦 我的意思是行政部門"},{"start":13697.59,"end":13699.59,"text":"你不要給他太多的武器"},{"start":13701.52,"end":13703.52,"text":"而且涉及到人身自由"},{"start":13703.52,"end":13705.52,"text":"這個我是比較堅持"},{"start":13705.52,"end":13707.52,"text":"我們今天還是繼續來做"},{"start":13707.52,"end":13709.52,"text":"討論一下"},{"start":13709.52,"end":13711.52,"text":"不要說每個都沒有人在這裡"},{"start":13711.52,"end":13713.52,"text":"就像畫玻璃"},{"start":13713.52,"end":13715.52,"text":"針對條文實質性的"},{"start":13715.52,"end":13717.52,"text":"來 各位有沒有什麼意見"},{"start":13718.88,"end":13720.88,"text":"喔 麻煩你們討論一下"},{"start":13720.88,"end":13722.88,"text":"你們要不要說玻璃"},{"start":13722.53,"end":13724.53,"text":"再次恭喜"},{"start":13723.83,"end":13725.83,"text":"我的細點"},{"start":13725.78,"end":13727.78,"text":"一致上"},{"start":13732.67,"end":13734.67,"text":"要 要想注意喔 就是"},{"start":13736.89,"end":13738.89,"text":"這個行政院的保安還沒安呢"},{"start":13739.79,"end":13741.79,"text":"54條 有啊 有有有"},{"start":13741.79,"end":13743.79,"text":"行政院就在這個地方"},{"start":13743.23,"end":13745.23,"text":"提案就是這個啊"},{"start":13746.37,"end":13748.37,"text":"就是說 大家有什麼不一樣的地方"},{"start":13748.37,"end":13750.37,"text":"來 你們認為哪一個地方不妥"},{"start":13753.38,"end":13755.38,"text":"各位委員的提的反而比較重耶"},{"start":13759.74,"end":13761.74,"text":"我們先請"},{"start":13761.37,"end":13763.37,"text":"你們不想說我也不能請"},{"start":13763.37,"end":13765.37,"text":"請你們 如果有時候你們覺得"},{"start":13765.37,"end":13767.37,"text":"意見就要這樣啊 有沒有特別的想法"},{"start":13769.73,"end":13771.73,"text":"沒有特別的想法"},{"start":13771.52,"end":13773.52,"text":"來 安內"},{"start":13774.98,"end":13776.98,"text":"都沒有叫你們沒有特別的想法"},{"start":13776.98,"end":13778.98,"text":"沒意見就要通過了"},{"start":13778.98,"end":13780.98,"text":"來 陳召治委員"},{"start":13780.98,"end":13782.98,"text":"我講 你不要請啦"},{"start":13782.98,"end":13784.98,"text":"我不會請 你個 每一個人有每一個人的專業"},{"start":13784.98,"end":13786.98,"text":"我們的想法就是這樣"},{"start":13786.98,"end":13788.98,"text":"想法不能笑"},{"start":13788.98,"end":13790.98,"text":"因為 獨家被加重這個是一致毫無疑問的啦"},{"start":13790.98,"end":13792.98,"text":"現在因為我們法部今天沒來"},{"start":13792.98,"end":13794.98,"text":"法部每次公布的數字喔"},{"start":13794.98,"end":13796.98,"text":"法部有來 市長你很專業的"},{"start":13796.98,"end":13798.98,"text":"你說他沒來"},{"start":13798.98,"end":13800.98,"text":"你有數字喔 你法部每次這個獨家"},{"start":13800.98,"end":13802.98,"text":"像這個到今年5月比去年同期"},{"start":13802.98,"end":13804.98,"text":"你增加了2.8倍"},{"start":13804.98,"end":13806.98,"text":"2399件 到底有多少"},{"start":13806.98,"end":13808.98,"text":"是 我知道有現役軍人啦 我知道啦"},{"start":13808.98,"end":13810.98,"text":"就是說民間跟這個"},{"start":13810.98,"end":13812.98,"text":"軍人的部分"},{"start":13812.98,"end":13814.98,"text":"這個部分我們懲罰的比重"},{"start":13814.98,"end":13816.98,"text":"等等 我如果了解這個數字"},{"start":13816.98,"end":13818.98,"text":"到底軍人有多嚴重"},{"start":13818.98,"end":13820.98,"text":"民間 還是大部分在民間"},{"start":13820.98,"end":13822.98,"text":"等等等等"},{"start":13822.98,"end":13824.98,"text":"這個人處理這個 還是同步"},{"start":13824.98,"end":13826.98,"text":"一起做 還是先做這個"},{"start":13826.98,"end":13828.98,"text":"應該都 如果軍人比例很高"},{"start":13828.98,"end":13830.98,"text":"那我們也擊破性很高啦"},{"start":13830.98,"end":13832.98,"text":"我的意思是說這個可以"},{"start":13832.98,"end":13834.98,"text":"大家做同步來趕快把它決定"},{"start":13834.98,"end":13836.98,"text":"我告訴你 我們以前喔"},{"start":13836.98,"end":13838.98,"text":"我們以前連軍做"},{"start":13838.98,"end":13840.98,"text":"補兵的時候 我們就不能交代"},{"start":13843.2,"end":13845.2,"text":"你有頭起來啦"},{"start":13845.2,"end":13847.2,"text":"沒有做兵的人"},{"start":13847.2,"end":13849.2,"text":"怎麼站就沒關係"},{"start":13849.2,"end":13851.2,"text":"你有架轍怎麼站也沒關係"},{"start":13851.2,"end":13853.2,"text":"做兵的人不行"},{"start":13853.2,"end":13855.2,"text":"為什麼要這樣你知道嗎"},{"start":13855.2,"end":13857.2,"text":"你出去 軍人"},{"start":13857.2,"end":13859.2,"text":"你很稀缺 你要保護國家"},{"start":13859.2,"end":13861.2,"text":"出去 這樣 車子站起來"},{"start":13861.2,"end":13863.2,"text":"弄到 會怎樣怎樣"},{"start":13863.2,"end":13865.2,"text":"你會覺得以前呢 你很難去想像你知道嗎"},{"start":13865.2,"end":13867.2,"text":"那現在當然法治上"},{"start":13867.2,"end":13869.2,"text":"都有越來越進步"},{"start":13869.2,"end":13871.2,"text":"大家都來討論"},{"start":13871.2,"end":13873.2,"text":"我細聊 你的疑慮在什麼地方"},{"start":13874.89,"end":13876.89,"text":"你如果要當他也要當你"},{"start":13876.89,"end":13878.89,"text":"現在我不知道你的疑慮就對了 我看不出來"},{"start":13878.89,"end":13880.89,"text":"這個如果有疑慮的話 可能就像"},{"start":13880.89,"end":13882.89,"text":"歐委員都會認為說要跟刑法那邊的"},{"start":13882.89,"end":13884.89,"text":"一次而已 對於裁緩的設計"},{"start":13884.89,"end":13886.89,"text":"你們認為有哪裡不妥嗎"},{"start":13886.89,"end":13888.89,"text":"是 我再補充說明"},{"start":13888.89,"end":13890.89,"text":"其實就是說現在"},{"start":13890.89,"end":13892.89,"text":"對於院板的所提出來的"},{"start":13892.89,"end":13894.89,"text":"這個構成要件的部分"},{"start":13894.89,"end":13896.89,"text":"我沒有什麼太大的意見"},{"start":13896.89,"end":13898.89,"text":"那當然最重要的還是在於"},{"start":13898.89,"end":13900.89,"text":"最後的法定的良行的部分"},{"start":13900.89,"end":13902.89,"text":"因為在刑法那邊的話 因為有一些"},{"start":13902.89,"end":13904.89,"text":"不同的 有"},{"start":13904.56,"end":13906.56,"text":"委員的版本是提出"},{"start":13906.56,"end":13908.56,"text":"就是最重要處罰到死刑"},{"start":13908.56,"end":13910.56,"text":"但是我們現在"},{"start":13910.56,"end":13912.56,"text":"陸海空軍刑法這邊的話"},{"start":13912.56,"end":13914.56,"text":"他就是也最重大概就是"},{"start":13914.56,"end":13916.56,"text":"處到無期"},{"start":13916.56,"end":13918.56,"text":"沒有 他"},{"start":13918.56,"end":13920.56,"text":"沒有關係"},{"start":13920.56,"end":13922.56,"text":"沒有關係"},{"start":13922.56,"end":13924.56,"text":"所以就是說我們如果說今天這邊"},{"start":13924.56,"end":13926.56,"text":"我們就歐委員 我們尊重大家"},{"start":13926.56,"end":13928.56,"text":"就是說 陸海空軍刑法"},{"start":13928.56,"end":13930.56,"text":"裡面對於刑法"},{"start":13930.56,"end":13932.56,"text":"構成要件的設計"},{"start":13932.56,"end":13934.56,"text":"常常都會比一般民眾"},{"start":13934.56,"end":13936.56,"text":"還要重"},{"start":13936.6,"end":13938.6,"text":"甚至於會爭"},{"start":13938.6,"end":13940.6,"text":"當然你很重的 剛我們講的"},{"start":13940.6,"end":13942.6,"text":"去效忠"},{"start":13942.6,"end":13944.6,"text":"效忠敵人 效忠"},{"start":13944.6,"end":13946.6,"text":"敵對國家 還是去"},{"start":13946.6,"end":13948.6,"text":"降敵 那如果軍人的部分"},{"start":13948.6,"end":13950.6,"text":"你如果做法官來判 跟一般民眾"},{"start":13950.6,"end":13952.6,"text":"來判 那判的"},{"start":13952.6,"end":13954.6,"text":"一定不一樣的 所以軍人的"},{"start":13954.6,"end":13956.6,"text":"部分當然會因為確實他的"},{"start":13956.6,"end":13958.6,"text":"刑法就把它"},{"start":13958.6,"end":13960.6,"text":"不要說憲法啦 我們都"},{"start":13960.6,"end":13962.6,"text":"也要求軍人就是真的要保護"},{"start":13962.6,"end":13964.6,"text":"國家 你給他當兵的"},{"start":13964.6,"end":13966.6,"text":"也叫你驚死"},{"start":13966.6,"end":13968.6,"text":"這如果有一個將軍在裡面 你給他當兵的"},{"start":13968.6,"end":13970.6,"text":"你去效忠習近平"},{"start":13970.6,"end":13972.6,"text":"這什麼五年以下 你要請三個"},{"start":13972.6,"end":13974.6,"text":"什麼五年以下"},{"start":13974.6,"end":13976.6,"text":"驚死"},{"start":13975.64,"end":13977.64,"text":"一個小兵的行為"},{"start":13977.64,"end":13979.64,"text":"民眾的行為 跟一個上將的行為"},{"start":13979.64,"end":13981.64,"text":"我們當法官的話"},{"start":13981.64,"end":13983.64,"text":"我們來量刑一定完全不同"},{"start":13983.64,"end":13985.64,"text":"影響力會有所不同"},{"start":13985.64,"end":13987.64,"text":"你如果做法官你也不會這樣判"},{"start":13987.64,"end":13989.64,"text":"所以我懂你的意思 我的意思"},{"start":13989.64,"end":13991.64,"text":"就是說 在與"},{"start":13991.64,"end":13993.64,"text":"你的刑法要去"},{"start":13993.64,"end":13995.64,"text":"怎麼樣跟陸海公軍刑法去"},{"start":13995.64,"end":13997.64,"text":"做差別待遇 我們沒有意見"},{"start":13997.64,"end":13999.64,"text":"我們都尊重 我的意思就是說"},{"start":13999.64,"end":14001.64,"text":"我們這一部這麼多"},{"start":14001.64,"end":14003.64,"text":"行政院所提出來的"},{"start":14003.64,"end":14005.64,"text":"案件的提案"},{"start":14005.64,"end":14007.64,"text":"跟各個委員的提案裡面"},{"start":14007.64,"end":14009.64,"text":"在針對陸海公軍刑法"},{"start":14009.64,"end":14011.64,"text":"第54條"},{"start":14011.64,"end":14013.64,"text":"跟54條之一的修正草案"},{"start":14013.64,"end":14015.64,"text":"各位委員有沒有什麼意見"},{"start":14015.64,"end":14017.64,"text":"你當然可以拿來比較"},{"start":14017.64,"end":14019.64,"text":"說這個跟我們的普通刑法"},{"start":14019.64,"end":14021.64,"text":"來比的話"},{"start":14021.64,"end":14023.64,"text":"它比較重 它一定會比較重"},{"start":14024.4,"end":14026.4,"text":"針對陸海公軍刑法它比較重"},{"start":14026.4,"end":14028.4,"text":"這個是很符合我們的想像"},{"start":14028.4,"end":14030.4,"text":"但是一定是並開審的"},{"start":14030.4,"end":14032.4,"text":"你兩個要把它拉成都一樣"},{"start":14034.8,"end":14036.8,"text":"不太可能"},{"start":14036.18,"end":14038.18,"text":"但是你可以針對"},{"start":14038.18,"end":14040.18,"text":"不同意見提出來"},{"start":14040.18,"end":14042.18,"text":"提出來我才有辦法保留"},{"start":14042.18,"end":14044.18,"text":"你們不能都說尊重"},{"start":14044.82,"end":14046.82,"text":"就是說現在的法定刑是不一樣"},{"start":14046.82,"end":14048.82,"text":"那麼當然就是說"},{"start":14048.82,"end":14050.82,"text":"現在陸海公軍刑法它是把"},{"start":14050.82,"end":14052.82,"text":"整個的法定刑全部都提高"},{"start":14052.82,"end":14054.82,"text":"跟我們現在的刑法裡面的"},{"start":14054.82,"end":14056.82,"text":"這次的修法的版本的法定刑"},{"start":14056.82,"end":14058.82,"text":"兩邊不太一樣 唯一的就是說"},{"start":14058.82,"end":14060.82,"text":"現在在刑法那邊的修法"},{"start":14060.82,"end":14063.82,"text":"它是會有加重到處死刑"},{"start":14063.82,"end":14065.82,"text":"有委員的版本"},{"start":14065.82,"end":14067.82,"text":"是說如果獨家"},{"start":14067.82,"end":14069.82,"text":"然後致死"},{"start":14069.82,"end":14071.82,"text":"你建議怎麼修"},{"start":14071.82,"end":14073.82,"text":"你要加重的意思是什麼 更加重嗎"},{"start":14073.82,"end":14075.82,"text":"我尊重喔"},{"start":14075.82,"end":14077.82,"text":"兩部陸海公軍刑法"},{"start":14077.82,"end":14079.82,"text":"跟刑法"},{"start":14079.82,"end":14081.82,"text":"一個普通刑法 一個特別刑法"},{"start":14081.82,"end":14083.82,"text":"它本來就會有所不同"},{"start":14083.82,"end":14085.82,"text":"那你陸海公軍刑法裡面"},{"start":14085.82,"end":14087.82,"text":"它規範的主體"},{"start":14087.82,"end":14089.82,"text":"課題裡面"},{"start":14089.59,"end":14091.59,"text":"這應該是主體"},{"start":14091.59,"end":14093.59,"text":"它規範的主體裡面"},{"start":14093.59,"end":14095.59,"text":"它也有軍人"},{"start":14095.59,"end":14097.59,"text":"也有全部都是軍人喔"},{"start":14100.71,"end":14102.71,"text":"是啦 法律不一樣而已"},{"start":14103.4,"end":14105.4,"text":"翁委員 你要跟法庭不一樣而已"},{"start":14105.4,"end":14107.4,"text":"對 是只有罰金刑不一樣"},{"start":14107.4,"end":14109.4,"text":"所以說 你的意思就是說"},{"start":14109.4,"end":14111.4,"text":"軍人要處罰"},{"start":14111.4,"end":14113.4,"text":"假設罰金"},{"start":14113.4,"end":14115.4,"text":"也要跟一般民眾都一樣"},{"start":14115.4,"end":14117.4,"text":"你要表達是這個意思嗎"},{"start":14117.4,"end":14119.4,"text":"也不見得是一樣"},{"start":14119.4,"end":14121.4,"text":"我不是說這個意思"},{"start":14121.4,"end":14123.4,"text":"而是說 我的意思是說"},{"start":14123.4,"end":14125.4,"text":"因為有其他委員的版本"},{"start":14125.4,"end":14127.4,"text":"在刑法那個版本裡面"},{"start":14127.4,"end":14129.4,"text":"它是最高還可以處罰到"},{"start":14129.4,"end":14131.4,"text":"是"},{"start":14129.45,"end":14131.45,"text":"死刑"},{"start":14131.45,"end":14133.45,"text":"但是如果說 只是一般的民眾"},{"start":14133.45,"end":14135.45,"text":"然後獨假"},{"start":14135.45,"end":14137.45,"text":"然後致死 可以處罰到最高的死刑"},{"start":14137.45,"end":14139.45,"text":"那麼對於軍人"},{"start":14139.45,"end":14141.45,"text":"你要覺得更重"},{"start":14142.68,"end":14144.68,"text":"我不見得會覺得"},{"start":14144.68,"end":14146.68,"text":"對 是不是要判死刑"},{"start":14146.68,"end":14148.68,"text":"我的意思就是說 到時候我們這邊先通過了"},{"start":14148.68,"end":14150.68,"text":"可是萬一如果在刑法那邊"},{"start":14150.68,"end":14152.68,"text":"反而是一般人"},{"start":14152.68,"end":14154.68,"text":"反而 願版的沒有死刑"},{"start":14154.68,"end":14156.68,"text":"我現在不是講願版"},{"start":14156.68,"end":14158.68,"text":"因為這個是跟很多委員的版本"},{"start":14158.68,"end":14160.68,"text":"要一起討論嘛"},{"start":14160.68,"end":14162.68,"text":"如果我們在刑法那邊的討論"},{"start":14162.68,"end":14164.68,"text":"它不見得會通過是願版"},{"start":14164.68,"end":14166.68,"text":"有可能是個別委員的版本"},{"start":14166.68,"end":14168.68,"text":"而的確有幾位委員"},{"start":14168.68,"end":14170.68,"text":"提出來的版本"},{"start":14170.68,"end":14172.68,"text":"是最高的處罰"},{"start":14172.68,"end":14174.68,"text":"我懂你的意思了"},{"start":14174.68,"end":14176.68,"text":"可是那真的是兩件事"},{"start":14176.68,"end":14178.68,"text":"一個是陸海空軍刑法"},{"start":14178.68,"end":14180.68,"text":"一個是普通刑法"},{"start":14180.68,"end":14182.68,"text":"你到底要不要去加重的問題"},{"start":14182.68,"end":14184.68,"text":"也就是如果未來普通刑法的刑法"},{"start":14184.68,"end":14186.68,"text":"比"},{"start":14186.68,"end":14188.68,"text":"陸海空軍刑法更重"},{"start":14188.68,"end":14190.68,"text":"更重"},{"start":14190.68,"end":14192.68,"text":"那大家是不是會覺得說"},{"start":14192.68,"end":14194.68,"text":"我們陸海空軍刑法太輕了"},{"start":14194.68,"end":14196.68,"text":"陸海空軍刑法會比一般的刑法要重"},{"start":14197.39,"end":14199.39,"text":"你如果重的話你現在可以修正法"},{"start":14199.39,"end":14201.39,"text":"你如果覺得陸海空軍刑法現在"},{"start":14201.39,"end":14203.39,"text":"我們等一下修出來"},{"start":14203.39,"end":14205.39,"text":"有可能比普通刑法還要輕的話"},{"start":14205.39,"end":14207.39,"text":"那你們可以提出你們的意見"},{"start":14207.39,"end":14209.39,"text":"說現在的陸海空軍刑法"},{"start":14209.39,"end":14211.39,"text":"第54條跟54條之一"},{"start":14211.39,"end":14213.39,"text":"是太輕的"},{"start":14213.39,"end":14215.39,"text":"我也沒意見啊"},{"start":14215.39,"end":14217.39,"text":"你現在是認為這個地方太輕是不是"},{"start":14217.71,"end":14219.71,"text":"我"},{"start":14218.94,"end":14220.94,"text":"這樣講就我個人的意見來講"},{"start":14220.94,"end":14222.94,"text":"我並不覺得輕"},{"start":14222.94,"end":14224.94,"text":"但是我只是現在就是"},{"start":14224.94,"end":14226.94,"text":"預想到一個狀況如果說是我們今天"},{"start":14226.94,"end":14228.94,"text":"通過的這個版本"},{"start":14228.94,"end":14230.94,"text":"那麼是"},{"start":14230.52,"end":14232.52,"text":"軍人獨家"},{"start":14232.59,"end":14236.59,"text":"至死沒有處罰到最高法定刑事死刑"},{"start":14236.59,"end":14238.59,"text":"而我們在另外"},{"start":14238.59,"end":14240.59,"text":"下次再去處理刑法的時候"},{"start":14240.59,"end":14242.59,"text":"如果那裡的條文通過的是"},{"start":14245.08,"end":14247.08,"text":"一般的平民"},{"start":14247.08,"end":14249.08,"text":"獨家然後至死"},{"start":14249.08,"end":14251.08,"text":"但他最高是可以處罰到死刑"},{"start":14251.08,"end":14253.08,"text":"但會不會讓大家會覺得"},{"start":14253.08,"end":14255.08,"text":"反而陸海空軍刑法這裡通過的"},{"start":14255.08,"end":14257.08,"text":"這個刑責是比較"},{"start":14257.08,"end":14259.08,"text":"低的"},{"start":14259.08,"end":14261.08,"text":"加重結果要到死刑不容易"},{"start":14261.08,"end":14263.08,"text":"怕會有這個有不同的情況"},{"start":14264.57,"end":14266.57,"text":"會讓大家會覺得說"},{"start":14266.57,"end":14268.57,"text":"為什麼這個兩邊的法"},{"start":14268.57,"end":14270.57,"text":"對於同樣的類似這樣的行為"},{"start":14270.57,"end":14272.57,"text":"只是因為軍人身份不同"},{"start":14272.57,"end":14274.57,"text":"只是因為人的身份不同"},{"start":14274.57,"end":14276.57,"text":"反而還軍人獨家至死的"},{"start":14277.8,"end":14279.8,"text":"這個處罰還比較輕"},{"start":14279.8,"end":14281.8,"text":"我只是提出這樣的一個問題"},{"start":14281.8,"end":14283.8,"text":"當然如果說對我個人的意見來講"},{"start":14283.8,"end":14287.8,"text":"我是不認為一定要處罰到死刑"},{"start":14287.8,"end":14289.8,"text":"但是事實上就是"},{"start":14289.8,"end":14291.8,"text":"的確有"},{"start":14291.37,"end":14295.37,"text":"一些委員的版本他是堅持是要死刑的"},{"start":14298.61,"end":14300.61,"text":"李安現在是協商"},{"start":14301.58,"end":14303.58,"text":"李安現在是協商"},{"start":14303.58,"end":14306.58,"text":"所以我大膽的預測"},{"start":14306.58,"end":14310.58,"text":"任何的政黨你說加重結果犯的部分"},{"start":14310.58,"end":14312.58,"text":"要拉到死刑"},{"start":14312.58,"end":14314.58,"text":"不容易也不太敢"},{"start":14314.58,"end":14317.58,"text":"因為個人裡面個人對於"},{"start":14317.58,"end":14319.58,"text":"每一個犯罪的態度可能有所堅持"},{"start":14319.58,"end":14321.58,"text":"感受有所不同"},{"start":14321.58,"end":14323.58,"text":"這個都可以尊重"},{"start":14323.58,"end":14325.58,"text":"但是因為畢竟你像比如說"},{"start":14325.58,"end":14327.58,"text":"我假設我今天"},{"start":14327.58,"end":14329.58,"text":"我要殺一個人"},{"start":14329.58,"end":14331.58,"text":"我就怕我膽子很小"},{"start":14331.58,"end":14333.58,"text":"我就趕快吸毒吸毒"},{"start":14333.58,"end":14335.58,"text":"然後去就砰砰砰砰"},{"start":14335.58,"end":14337.58,"text":"這個就是殺人的"},{"start":14337.58,"end":14339.58,"text":"當然處死刑以現在法官敢判"},{"start":14339.58,"end":14341.58,"text":"但是你就是說因為吸毒"},{"start":14341.05,"end":14343.05,"text":"他的前面只是吸毒"},{"start":14343.05,"end":14345.05,"text":"然後面因為產生一個加重結果犯"},{"start":14345.05,"end":14347.05,"text":"那個加重結果犯不是在過失"},{"start":14347.05,"end":14349.05,"text":"不然就是在無意識狀態"},{"start":14349.05,"end":14351.05,"text":"那個你說叫法官去判死刑"},{"start":14351.05,"end":14353.05,"text":"你做法官不敢判"},{"start":14353.05,"end":14355.05,"text":"各個政黨會不會針對於"},{"start":14355.05,"end":14357.05,"text":"前面的故意吸毒"},{"start":14357.05,"end":14359.05,"text":"吸毒故意的部分"},{"start":14359.05,"end":14361.05,"text":"加後面的一個過失的加重結果犯"},{"start":14361.05,"end":14363.05,"text":"去判到"},{"start":14363.05,"end":14365.05,"text":"去設計一個死刑"},{"start":14365.05,"end":14367.05,"text":"我看各個政黨都不敢這樣主張"},{"start":14367.05,"end":14369.05,"text":"各個政黨裡面也都一定會有不同的意見"},{"start":14369.05,"end":14371.05,"text":"各北委員我不敢講"},{"start":14371.05,"end":14373.05,"text":"因為各北委員有好惡的問題"},{"start":14373.05,"end":14375.05,"text":"你像以前"},{"start":14375.05,"end":14377.05,"text":"以前我們那個都是"},{"start":14378.34,"end":14380.34,"text":"國家法醫"},{"start":14380.34,"end":14382.34,"text":"好壞好重的判國"},{"start":14382.34,"end":14384.34,"text":"內亂外患死刑"},{"start":14384.34,"end":14386.34,"text":"社會法醫"},{"start":14386.34,"end":14388.34,"text":"跟鞭車去幫人放廢"},{"start":14388.34,"end":14390.34,"text":"也很嚴重"},{"start":14390.34,"end":14392.34,"text":"到了個人的法醫的部分"},{"start":14392.34,"end":14394.34,"text":"除非你是殺人或者是去重傷"},{"start":14394.34,"end":14396.34,"text":"以前財產犯罪是最輕的"},{"start":14394.91,"end":14396.91,"text":"炸雞那個都是最輕的"},{"start":14396.91,"end":14398.91,"text":"現在你去騙他錢財"},{"start":14398.91,"end":14400.91,"text":"你簡直是比殺他父母還要嚴重"},{"start":14400.91,"end":14402.91,"text":"所以社會也在轉變"},{"start":14402.91,"end":14404.91,"text":"也在轉變"},{"start":14404.91,"end":14406.91,"text":"怎麼轉變都比較不容易說"},{"start":14408.7,"end":14410.7,"text":"有過失的部分"},{"start":14410.7,"end":14412.7,"text":"你要把他拉到跟故意的行為一樣重"},{"start":14413.93,"end":14415.93,"text":"比較不容易"},{"start":14415.65,"end":14417.65,"text":"所以這個我是感到"},{"start":14417.65,"end":14419.65,"text":"我尊重你們"},{"start":14419.65,"end":14421.65,"text":"我的意思就是說"},{"start":14421.32,"end":14423.32,"text":"橋歸橋路歸路"},{"start":14423.32,"end":14425.32,"text":"如果說我們刑法的規範"},{"start":14425.32,"end":14427.32,"text":"我們本來就是要討論"},{"start":14427.32,"end":14429.32,"text":"我看你如果沒意見"},{"start":14429.32,"end":14431.32,"text":"你是反對說"},{"start":14431.32,"end":14433.32,"text":"假設我們今天"},{"start":14434.03,"end":14436.03,"text":"通過了"},{"start":14435.29,"end":14437.29,"text":"你說你刑法修訂完以後"},{"start":14437.29,"end":14439.29,"text":"你那邊規定的是比較重的"},{"start":14439.29,"end":14441.29,"text":"輕重失衡"},{"start":14441.29,"end":14443.29,"text":"你擔心的是普通刑法"},{"start":14443.29,"end":14445.29,"text":"的修法通過以後比較重"},{"start":14445.29,"end":14447.29,"text":"如果說你刑法比較輕"},{"start":14447.29,"end":14449.29,"text":"可是那是兩件事"},{"start":14449.29,"end":14451.29,"text":"我們也有可能"},{"start":14451.29,"end":14453.29,"text":"我們現在通過之後"},{"start":14454.58,"end":14456.58,"text":"普通刑法裡面"},{"start":14456.58,"end":14458.58,"text":"仿造這個也不一定"},{"start":14458.5,"end":14460.5,"text":"你說入海公"},{"start":14460.5,"end":14462.5,"text":"普通刑法修完以後"},{"start":14462.5,"end":14464.5,"text":"對我們這邊也不會產生影響"},{"start":14465.53,"end":14467.53,"text":"也不會產生影響"},{"start":14467.53,"end":14469.53,"text":"大家還是會有不同的看法"},{"start":14469.53,"end":14471.53,"text":"你像比如說你假設刑法你通過了以後"},{"start":14471.53,"end":14473.53,"text":"你說那個部分"},{"start":14473.53,"end":14475.53,"text":"加重結果判的部分你拉高到死刑"},{"start":14475.53,"end":14477.53,"text":"你在入海公軍刑法裡面"},{"start":14477.53,"end":14479.53,"text":"我也會同樣的主張"},{"start":14479.53,"end":14481.53,"text":"因為法理是一致的"},{"start":14481.53,"end":14483.53,"text":"我在普通刑法裡面加重結果判"},{"start":14483.53,"end":14485.53,"text":"我反對去提高動用到死刑"},{"start":14485.53,"end":14487.53,"text":"我在入海公軍刑法"},{"start":14487.53,"end":14489.53,"text":"我同樣都會這樣去堅持"},{"start":14489.53,"end":14491.53,"text":"那個是我的邏輯跟價值的問題"},{"start":14491.53,"end":14493.53,"text":"不是好跟壞的問題"},{"start":14493.53,"end":14495.53,"text":"因為我們感受有不同"},{"start":14495.53,"end":14497.53,"text":"感受有不同差別在這個地方"},{"start":14497.53,"end":14499.53,"text":"你說可不可惡各黨都覺得很可惡"},{"start":14499.53,"end":14501.53,"text":"是要不要到死刑"},{"start":14501.53,"end":14503.53,"text":"我基本上同意"},{"start":14503.53,"end":14505.53,"text":"莊重委的看法畢竟我們都學法律的"},{"start":14505.53,"end":14507.53,"text":"我們曉得說就是"},{"start":14507.53,"end":14509.53,"text":"有加重結果判是不是合要拉高到"},{"start":14509.53,"end":14511.53,"text":"處罰到死刑"},{"start":14511.53,"end":14513.53,"text":"但是我只是"},{"start":14513.53,"end":14515.53,"text":"表達這樣的一個情況"},{"start":14515.53,"end":14517.53,"text":"如果說真的之後"},{"start":14517.53,"end":14519.53,"text":"出現普通刑法"},{"start":14519.53,"end":14521.53,"text":"跟入海公軍刑法他的刑度"},{"start":14521.53,"end":14523.53,"text":"罰則不一的時候"},{"start":14523.53,"end":14525.53,"text":"我們之後要怎樣去對外說明這件事情"},{"start":14526.82,"end":14528.82,"text":"那邊採哪一個版本"},{"start":14529.69,"end":14531.69,"text":"你也沒說你反對的"},{"start":14531.69,"end":14533.69,"text":"你反對的"},{"start":14533.69,"end":14535.69,"text":"是不是要不要畫這個案子就是"},{"start":14535.69,"end":14537.69,"text":"坦白說構成要件的部分我都同意"},{"start":14537.69,"end":14539.69,"text":"然後現在所提出來的這個"},{"start":14539.69,"end":14541.69,"text":"我們法律在審就是審過程要件"},{"start":14541.69,"end":14543.69,"text":"你總不能說你說過程要件"},{"start":14543.69,"end":14545.69,"text":"你都同意就代表這個條文"},{"start":14545.69,"end":14547.69,"text":"同意啊"},{"start":14547.69,"end":14549.69,"text":"這兩回事法律構成要件"},{"start":14549.69,"end":14551.69,"text":"跟他的良行我覺得還是"},{"start":14551.69,"end":14553.69,"text":"有所不同法律構成"},{"start":14553.69,"end":14555.69,"text":"要件是不是夠嚴謹"},{"start":14555.69,"end":14557.69,"text":"那麼這個部分你具體主張你反對"},{"start":14557.69,"end":14559.69,"text":"你反對的是說太輕"},{"start":14560.46,"end":14562.46,"text":"因為你說過程要件你同意嗎"},{"start":14563.11,"end":14565.11,"text":"過程要件同意的話你就會含舌出來"},{"start":14565.11,"end":14567.11,"text":"就是那個刑度的問題"},{"start":14567.11,"end":14569.11,"text":"刑度你認為是比較"},{"start":14569.11,"end":14571.11,"text":"你擔心比較輕是不是"},{"start":14571.11,"end":14573.11,"text":"因為有關於刑度的部分的確是"},{"start":14573.11,"end":14575.11,"text":"國民黨團團裡面"},{"start":14575.11,"end":14577.11,"text":"有不同的意見"},{"start":14577.11,"end":14579.11,"text":"今天我也不能夠比較代表說我自己的意見"},{"start":14579.11,"end":14581.11,"text":"所以我建議是說"},{"start":14581.11,"end":14583.11,"text":"如果刑度的部分我們是不是同樣也保留"},{"start":14584.13,"end":14586.13,"text":"主席不好意思我想要問一個問題"},{"start":14586.13,"end":14588.13,"text":"會議進行的問題就是說"},{"start":14588.13,"end":14590.13,"text":"因為我們基本上在審查法案的過程之中"},{"start":14590.13,"end":14592.13,"text":"就是如果他有意見"},{"start":14592.13,"end":14594.13,"text":"那就自己出來表達對不對"},{"start":14594.13,"end":14596.13,"text":"那如果我們今天要考量可能有其他委員"},{"start":14596.13,"end":14598.13,"text":"有什麼樣各自的意見的話那我們法案真的審查不下去"},{"start":14598.13,"end":14600.13,"text":"我們在任何法案都會很難審查"},{"start":14600.13,"end":14602.13,"text":"那我具體來告訴我們"},{"start":14602.13,"end":14604.13,"text":"法定刑有意見好了"},{"start":14604.13,"end":14606.13,"text":"對那我們就"},{"start":14606.13,"end":14608.13,"text":"對於這個法定刑的部分"},{"start":14608.13,"end":14610.13,"text":"我有意見"},{"start":14610.34,"end":14612.34,"text":"因為歐美人對於法定刑"},{"start":14612.34,"end":14614.34,"text":"其實你的意思就是比較輕"},{"start":14614.34,"end":14616.34,"text":"我懂你的意思啦"},{"start":14616.34,"end":14618.34,"text":"有意見嘛你對過程要件反而都沒有意見"},{"start":14619.79,"end":14621.79,"text":"這樣54條保留"},{"start":14621.95,"end":14623.95,"text":"來接下來54條之一"},{"start":14626.49,"end":14628.49,"text":"這樣54條之一剛才蔣宏祿跟我們不同的"},{"start":14628.49,"end":14630.49,"text":"這樣54條之一我們就不予爭議"},{"start":14630.49,"end":14632.49,"text":"因為你54條已經保留了嘛"},{"start":14632.49,"end":14634.49,"text":"好不好"},{"start":14635.3,"end":14637.3,"text":"安捏"},{"start":14641.37,"end":14643.37,"text":"本案逐條均已處理完畢"},{"start":14643.37,"end":14645.37,"text":"來做以下宣告"},{"start":14645.37,"end":14647.37,"text":"本案審查完畢你具審查報告"},{"start":14647.37,"end":14649.37,"text":"提醒院會公決"},{"start":14649.37,"end":14651.37,"text":"本案是否去交代黨人協商要"},{"start":14651.37,"end":14653.37,"text":"再來就是院會討論的時候"},{"start":14653.37,"end":14655.37,"text":"由莊召集委員瑞松出席說明"},{"start":14655.37,"end":14657.37,"text":"調次"},{"start":14657.37,"end":14659.37,"text":"一條而已"},{"start":14659.37,"end":14661.37,"text":"調次引述條文部分文字跟法制用語"},{"start":14661.37,"end":14663.37,"text":"用字用語"},{"start":14663.37,"end":14665.37,"text":"授權主席跟議事人員來做"},{"start":14665.37,"end":14667.37,"text":"整理"},{"start":14667.37,"end":14669.37,"text":"那本次議程討論事項"},{"start":14669.37,"end":14671.37,"text":"兩案均已處理完畢"},{"start":14671.37,"end":14673.37,"text":"進行到此為止"},{"start":14673.37,"end":14675.37,"text":"我們現在上會謝謝大家"},{"start":14675.37,"end":14677.37,"text":"辛苦了"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}