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PAO CANADA .COM 打賞"},{"start":2103.65,"end":2108.65,"text":"NCC人事長期缺席影響的已經不只是機關運作"},{"start":2108.65,"end":2111.65,"text":"也涉及國家通訊傳播監理能否正常運作"},{"start":2113.02,"end":2116.02,"text":"同時我們所面對的通訊傳播環境也已經有很大的改變"},{"start":2116.02,"end":2122.02,"text":"當前的AI生成內容、DeepLake與網際網路傳播等問題已經深入我們的日常生活"},{"start":2123.51,"end":2125.51,"text":"科技發展的速度很快"},{"start":2125.39,"end":2128.39,"text":"相關政策與監理也必須有所回應"},{"start":2128.39,"end":2132.39,"text":"因此,科技不會等NCC委員到期後才往前走"},{"start":2132.39,"end":2136.39,"text":"產業與社會也不會因為人事案尚未完成就停止發展"},{"start":2137.62,"end":2139.62,"text":"面對新的通訊傳播環境"},{"start":2139.62,"end":2142.62,"text":"台灣需要一個具有完整決策能力的監理機關"},{"start":2143.93,"end":2145.93,"text":"回到這次NCC委員被提名人的審查"},{"start":2145.93,"end":2147.93,"text":"國會當然要嚴格審查"},{"start":2147.93,"end":2149.93,"text":"但審查的重點"},{"start":2150.34,"end":2155.34,"text":"應該放在每一位被提名人的專業能力、實務經驗、獨立性"},{"start":2155.88,"end":2158.88,"text":"利益迴避以及對當前通訊傳播環境的理解"},{"start":2159.63,"end":2161.63,"text":"是否符合NCC委員所需要的條件"},{"start":2163.19,"end":2166.19,"text":"如果被提名人的專業或私人性不足"},{"start":2167.49,"end":2169.49,"text":"國會當然可以不同意"},{"start":2169.9,"end":2171.9,"text":"如果經過充分的審查"},{"start":2171.9,"end":2173.9,"text":"具備相應的專業能力與私人條件"},{"start":2174.49,"end":2176.49,"text":"那就應該予以同意"},{"start":2177.24,"end":2179.24,"text":"人事同意權的價值"},{"start":2179.44,"end":2181.44,"text":"在於審查做出判斷"},{"start":2182.26,"end":2185.26,"text":"而不是讓人事案長期沒有結果"},{"start":2186.46,"end":2188.46,"text":"國會有監督與審查的一個責任"},{"start":2188.46,"end":2193.46,"text":"但NCC也必須履行通訊、傳播、監理的法定職責"},{"start":2194.56,"end":2196.56,"text":"通過專業且充分的審查"},{"start":2196.56,"end":2198.56,"text":"讓適任的人選承擔職責"},{"start":2198.56,"end":2203.56,"text":"讓NCC恢復完整的決策與監理功能"},{"start":2203.56,"end":2207.56,"text":"應該是這次人事審查朝野政黨共同追求的目標"},{"start":2208.78,"end":2211.78,"text":"最後我還是要回到一開始的觀點"},{"start":2212.58,"end":2214.58,"text":"國會可以審查人事"},{"start":2214.58,"end":2216.58,"text":"但國家不能沒有監理"},{"start":2216.58,"end":2218.58,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":2227.97,"end":2229.97,"text":"好,非常感謝"},{"start":2230.47,"end":2232.47,"text":"接下來我們補充介紹一位剛到場"},{"start":2232.47,"end":2236.47,"text":"我們中國文化發學新聞系的莊伯仲教授"},{"start":2236.47,"end":2238.47,"text":"謝謝莊老師"},{"start":2237.89,"end":2239.89,"text":"好,接下來我們邀請國立師範大學"},{"start":2239.89,"end":2241.89,"text":"熱活產業高階經理人"},{"start":2241.89,"end":2245.89,"text":"企業管理碩士在職專班的兼任助理教授林寬玉發言"},{"start":2252.79,"end":2254.79,"text":"主席,各位與會的先進"},{"start":2254.79,"end":2258.79,"text":"今天非常榮幸能夠來參與這項公聽會"},{"start":2260.29,"end":2266.29,"text":"由於NCC因為涉及到現在最新的這個大家都離不開的手機通訊"},{"start":2266.29,"end":2268.29,"text":"還有我們每天接觸的內容等等"},{"start":2268.29,"end":2271.29,"text":"所以因此它涉及的範圍非常的廣泛"},{"start":2271.29,"end":2272.29,"text":"那因為時間有限"},{"start":2272.29,"end":2276.29,"text":"我想針對以下的幾點來表達我的一些想法"},{"start":2276.29,"end":2280.29,"text":"第一個是關於公平競爭這件事情上面"},{"start":2280.29,"end":2285.29,"text":"第二個如何確保我們的通訊還有言論的環境"},{"start":2285.29,"end":2291.29,"text":"能夠是一個多元化、一個vibe的環境"},{"start":2291.29,"end":2294.29,"text":"另外在NCC執行的功能上面"},{"start":2294.29,"end":2298.29,"text":"我想要能夠提到的就是"},{"start":2298.29,"end":2301.29,"text":"我們在法規或者是所有慣例的制定的過程裡面"},{"start":2301.29,"end":2305.29,"text":"這到底是一個什麼樣的一個透明的程序"},{"start":2305.29,"end":2306.29,"text":"應該要來建立"},{"start":2306.29,"end":2307.29,"text":"另外最後一個是"},{"start":2309.26,"end":2311.26,"text":"在保護消費者這件事情上面"},{"start":2311.26,"end":2314.26,"text":"我們NCC它有一定的職責"},{"start":2314.26,"end":2317.26,"text":"首先我想講的是這個建立公平的競爭"},{"start":2317.26,"end":2319.26,"text":"我想NCC大家都很清楚"},{"start":2319.26,"end":2321.26,"text":"每一位都非常了解它的功能"},{"start":2321.26,"end":2324.26,"text":"它要建立一個基礎的一個結構"},{"start":2324.26,"end":2326.26,"text":"那整個結構是能夠"},{"start":2327.01,"end":2331.01,"text":"讓所有的良性競爭能夠在這個環境裡面去發展的"},{"start":2332,"end":2333,"text":"我想大家都很清楚"},{"start":2333,"end":2335,"text":"美國的NCC在"},{"start":2336.61,"end":2340.61,"text":"20多年前曾經涉及到一個所謂網路中立性的問題"},{"start":2340.61,"end":2343.61,"text":"網路中立性的問題他們在制定的過程裡面"},{"start":2343.61,"end":2346.61,"text":"在做最終的決定之前"},{"start":2347.65,"end":2349.65,"text":"引起了非常多的討論"},{"start":2349.65,"end":2350.65,"text":"如果我沒有記錯的話"},{"start":2350.65,"end":2353.65,"text":"當時大概收了一千多萬份的意見"},{"start":2355.02,"end":2357.02,"text":"這裡想要說明的就是"},{"start":2357.15,"end":2360.15,"text":"中立性這件事情非常重要"},{"start":2360.15,"end":2361.15,"text":"因此"},{"start":2361.15,"end":2362.15,"text":"不是只有政治"},{"start":2362.15,"end":2364.15,"text":"而是整個商業的環境"},{"start":2364.15,"end":2366.15,"text":"因此我們想要問的就是"},{"start":2366.15,"end":2368.15,"text":"我們的委員對於"},{"start":2368.3,"end":2371.3,"text":"歐盟已經實施了DSA數位服務法"},{"start":2371.3,"end":2373.3,"text":"還有數位市場法"},{"start":2373.3,"end":2379.3,"text":"這些能夠建立一個完整能夠公平競爭的"},{"start":2379.3,"end":2381.3,"text":"這樣子的一個法律"},{"start":2381.3,"end":2383.3,"text":"抱持了什麼樣的態度"},{"start":2383.3,"end":2387.3,"text":"我想請各位可以來自己來稍微想一下"},{"start":2387.3,"end":2390.3,"text":"我們現在每天所接受的訊息"},{"start":2390.3,"end":2393.3,"text":"強烈的依賴著某一個特定的通訊軟體"},{"start":2393.3,"end":2397.3,"text":"強烈的依賴著很多特定的媒體"},{"start":2397.3,"end":2399.3,"text":"這些對於我們是不是好的"},{"start":2399.3,"end":2401.3,"text":"我覺得我們可以來思考"},{"start":2401.3,"end":2404.3,"text":"第二個確保我們的多元性"},{"start":2405.36,"end":2407.36,"text":"我們的NCC裡面大家都很清楚"},{"start":2407.36,"end":2408.36,"text":"任何一個政黨"},{"start":2408.36,"end":2411.36,"text":"他不可以的這個委員"},{"start":2411.36,"end":2413.36,"text":"不可以超過二分之一"},{"start":2413.36,"end":2415.36,"text":"我想要跟大家說明的是"},{"start":2415.36,"end":2418.36,"text":"在我們的民主政治越來越成熟的今天"},{"start":2418.36,"end":2425.36,"text":"我們的政黨政治已經慢慢的朝向一個柔性的政黨去發展"},{"start":2425.36,"end":2426.36,"text":"這句話什麼意思"},{"start":2426.36,"end":2430.36,"text":"也就是說你不一定要說去登記我要入黨"},{"start":2430.36,"end":2432.36,"text":"你才是某一個黨"},{"start":2432.36,"end":2435.36,"text":"美國柔性政黨美國從來沒有入黨這些事情"},{"start":2435.82,"end":2438.82,"text":"那他們社會到底怎麼樣去確認"},{"start":2438.82,"end":2441.82,"text":"這個大法官這個NCC的委員"},{"start":2441.82,"end":2443.82,"text":"他到底是偏向哪一個政黨"},{"start":2444.86,"end":2446.86,"text":"方法很容易"},{"start":2446.86,"end":2448.86,"text":"我相信我們的社會大眾"},{"start":2448.86,"end":2451.86,"text":"我們台灣的社會也有能力能夠來做這件事情"},{"start":2452.34,"end":2454.34,"text":"我們聽起言觀其行"},{"start":2455.14,"end":2458.14,"text":"重點不在我說我是什麼委員"},{"start":2458.14,"end":2459.14,"text":"我是什麼政黨"},{"start":2459.14,"end":2461.14,"text":"我有沒有加入什麼政黨"},{"start":2461.14,"end":2464.14,"text":"重點是在你過去長期的這些東西裡面"},{"start":2464.14,"end":2467.14,"text":"你到底抱持著一個什麼樣的想法"},{"start":2467.14,"end":2469.14,"text":"我想我認為這件事情"},{"start":2469.14,"end":2471.14,"text":"可以確保多元這件事情"},{"start":2471.14,"end":2475.14,"text":"我們必須要在這一次的委員會的委員的人事權裡面"},{"start":2475.14,"end":2477.14,"text":"能夠來確立"},{"start":2476.99,"end":2478.99,"text":"另外在功能上面"},{"start":2478.99,"end":2481.99,"text":"我想要說的是我們在法規的慣例的製定過程裡面"},{"start":2484.6,"end":2487.6,"text":"為什麼在中天的換照的過程裡面"},{"start":2487.6,"end":2490.6,"text":"會引起這麼多的"},{"start":2490.56,"end":2491.56,"text":"爭議"},{"start":2491.56,"end":2495.56,"text":"為什麼在靜電視這個特定媒體的執照的發放上面"},{"start":2495.56,"end":2497.56,"text":"會引起這麼多的爭議"},{"start":2497.56,"end":2499.56,"text":"我個人認為原因很簡單"},{"start":2499.56,"end":2502.56,"text":"因為我們的過程並不透明"},{"start":2502.95,"end":2504.95,"text":"我們的那個程序並不透明"},{"start":2504.95,"end":2505.95,"text":"不是只有這件事情而已"},{"start":2508.28,"end":2510.28,"text":"到底我們在做這件事情之前"},{"start":2510.28,"end":2511.28,"text":"我們要如何的"},{"start":2511.82,"end":2514.82,"text":"行政機關就應該要廣其名義"},{"start":2514.82,"end":2517.82,"text":"來去做我們後續的這些準備"},{"start":2518.29,"end":2521.29,"text":"例如美國也有這個廣播內容的"},{"start":2522.4,"end":2524.4,"text":"相當的這些的管制的方式"},{"start":2524.4,"end":2525.4,"text":"Podcast Content Rule"},{"start":2525.4,"end":2526.4,"text":"不是沒有"},{"start":2526.4,"end":2527.4,"text":"通通都有"},{"start":2527.4,"end":2529.4,"text":"這些東西到底怎麼制定"},{"start":2529.4,"end":2532.4,"text":"然後才不會重蹈以前"},{"start":2532.4,"end":2534.4,"text":"我們曾經犯過的那個錯誤"},{"start":2534.4,"end":2536.4,"text":"讓大家以為我們要去"},{"start":2536.4,"end":2538.4,"text":"前置自由的言論"},{"start":2538.4,"end":2539.4,"text":"我想應該沒有那個意思"},{"start":2539.4,"end":2540.4,"text":"所以這個是"},{"start":2540.4,"end":2542.4,"text":"我們的整個的過程裡面"},{"start":2542.4,"end":2544.4,"text":"應該要能夠很明確"},{"start":2544.4,"end":2547.4,"text":"另外在保護消費者這件事情上面"},{"start":2548.39,"end":2549.39,"text":"我們現在的詐騙的電話"},{"start":2549.39,"end":2551.39,"text":"我認為在這件事情上面"},{"start":2551.39,"end":2554.39,"text":"我們NCC可以做的非常的多"},{"start":2554.39,"end":2556.39,"text":"怎麼樣讓這件事情可以"},{"start":2556.39,"end":2558.39,"text":"更能夠有效的"},{"start":2558.39,"end":2561.39,"text":"讓我們的民眾在接電話的時候"},{"start":2561.39,"end":2564.39,"text":"可以有一份內心的這種安定"},{"start":2564.39,"end":2565.39,"text":"來想說"},{"start":2565.39,"end":2567.39,"text":"我不會接到詐騙電話"},{"start":2567.39,"end":2569.39,"text":"最後我想要說的是"},{"start":2569.39,"end":2572.39,"text":"我在公共電視董事的這個身分裡面"},{"start":2572.39,"end":2574.39,"text":"的這個任期之內"},{"start":2574.39,"end":2576.39,"text":"我明確的感受到"},{"start":2576.39,"end":2578.39,"text":"感受到我們新聞的內容"},{"start":2578.39,"end":2581.39,"text":"是如何的受到政治還有外力的影響"},{"start":2581.97,"end":2585.97,"text":"對於一個在70年代就參與見證"},{"start":2586.63,"end":2590.63,"text":"我們黨禁報禁開放的一個老媒體記者來說"},{"start":2590.63,"end":2593.63,"text":"我個人認為我們現在的言論自由是有"},{"start":2593.63,"end":2597.63,"text":"但是我們的多元性確實還有待"},{"start":2597.63,"end":2600.63,"text":"我們所有的主管機關能夠建立一個"},{"start":2600.63,"end":2602.63,"text":"非常良性的環境"},{"start":2602.63,"end":2604.63,"text":"讓我們的社會更多元更美麗"},{"start":2604.63,"end":2606.63,"text":"以上是我的意見 謝謝"},{"start":2607.79,"end":2609.79,"text":"好 我們謝謝林老師"},{"start":2609.79,"end":2611.79,"text":"好 接下來我們要請"},{"start":2613.04,"end":2615.04,"text":"彭文凱委員發言"},{"start":2617.73,"end":2618.73,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":2623.87,"end":2626.87,"text":"主席各位委員以及在場出席今天"},{"start":2626.87,"end":2629.87,"text":"所有的專家學者再次感謝大家"},{"start":2629.87,"end":2633.87,"text":"我想今天非常重要的就是NCC人事同意權的公聽會"},{"start":2633.87,"end":2636.87,"text":"我知道我們主要是要聽取我們所有專家學者的意見"},{"start":2636.87,"end":2639.87,"text":"也因此今天雖然本席沒有辦法全程在這邊陪同"},{"start":2639.87,"end":2641.87,"text":"但是我會請我的助理"},{"start":2641.87,"end":2644.87,"text":"在辦公室裡面一定會把每一位專家學者"},{"start":2644.87,"end":2647.87,"text":"所提出來的問題都好好的記錄下來"},{"start":2647.87,"end":2650.87,"text":"之後在NCC委員人事同意權的詢答的時候"},{"start":2650.87,"end":2652.87,"text":"我們也一定會提出來"},{"start":2652.87,"end":2653.87,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":2653.83,"end":2656.83,"text":"孟凱今天要過來特別要跟專家學者"},{"start":2656.83,"end":2659.83,"text":"以及今天出席的行政院還有NCC的代表"},{"start":2659.83,"end":2661.83,"text":"我想我一定要點出兩點"},{"start":2661.83,"end":2664.83,"text":"是目前憲政體制的問題"},{"start":2664.83,"end":2666.83,"text":"而如果這個問題沒有獲得解決"},{"start":2666.83,"end":2669.83,"text":"NCC的委員如果在這個問題上面沒有"},{"start":2669.83,"end":2671.83,"text":"任何明確的表態的話"},{"start":2671.83,"end":2675.83,"text":"我覺得這對於我們未來對NCC委員能不能夠行使"},{"start":2675.83,"end":2678.83,"text":"獨立行政的權利的時候"},{"start":2678.83,"end":2680.83,"text":"我們感到非常憂心"},{"start":2680.83,"end":2681.33,"text":"第一"},{"start":2682.18,"end":2686.18,"text":"行政院長依法在NCC組織法裡面第四條"},{"start":2686.18,"end":2689.18,"text":"明文規定只要NCC委員出席"},{"start":2689.18,"end":2693.18,"text":"出缺三個月內就要提名人選來補齊"},{"start":2693.18,"end":2697.18,"text":"而如果說到任的時候三個月前也要提出人選"},{"start":2697.18,"end":2700.18,"text":"換言之7月31號到任的NCC委員"},{"start":2700.18,"end":2704.18,"text":"其實應該在4月30號就要提出來"},{"start":2704.18,"end":2708.18,"text":"但很遺憾的是行政院長違法了兩個半月"},{"start":2708.18,"end":2712.18,"text":"一直到7月下旬才把這份名單提出來"},{"start":2712.18,"end":2715.18,"text":"我們要問行政院長可以公然違法"},{"start":2715.18,"end":2719.18,"text":"NCC委員被提名人難道可以默不吭聲嗎"},{"start":2719.18,"end":2723.18,"text":"當一個違法的院長提名出來的委員"},{"start":2723.18,"end":2726.18,"text":"如果NCC委員人最基本的詢問一下說"},{"start":2726.18,"end":2728.18,"text":"院長你為何違法"},{"start":2728.18,"end":2729.18,"text":"這樣事情都做不到的話"},{"start":2729.18,"end":2733.18,"text":"我不知道未來NCC委員能不能夠正式的提"},{"start":2733.18,"end":2735.18,"text":"行使他的一個權利"},{"start":2735.18,"end":2736.18,"text":"再者第二"},{"start":2737.59,"end":2738.59,"text":"在這個委員會"},{"start":2739.27,"end":2742.27,"text":"昨天我們看到了行政院院長"},{"start":2742.27,"end":2746.27,"text":"又再一次用他完全法律上從來沒有的權利"},{"start":2746.27,"end":2747.27,"text":"所謂的不附屬"},{"start":2747.27,"end":2752.27,"text":"把立法院三讀通過的法案給不附屬而不接受"},{"start":2753.9,"end":2759.9,"text":"諷刺的是他昨天所不附屬的剛好是有限廣播電視法的修法"},{"start":2759.9,"end":2763.9,"text":"而這個修法是在經過交通委員會這個委員會裡面"},{"start":2763.9,"end":2770.9,"text":"國民黨團民眾黨團民進黨團三黨團委員沒有人反對"},{"start":2770.9,"end":2775.9,"text":"並且NCC的代理處長也同意的情況下"},{"start":2775.9,"end":2779.9,"text":"送出委員會不用經過院會表決"},{"start":2779.9,"end":2782.9,"text":"直接二三讀修法通過"},{"start":2783.83,"end":2784.83,"text":"換言之"},{"start":2784.83,"end":2791.83,"text":"連NCC的代理主委跟NCC的代表也都支持跟認同這個修法的時候"},{"start":2791.83,"end":2794.83,"text":"送到行政院行政院院長不附屬"},{"start":2795.86,"end":2798.86,"text":"這不是非常荒謬的一件事情嗎"},{"start":2798.86,"end":2799.86,"text":"也徹底的打臉"},{"start":2800.74,"end":2802.74,"text":"NCC所謂的獨立行使"},{"start":2803.58,"end":2805.58,"text":"正常運作機關的一個權利"},{"start":2807.78,"end":2809.78,"text":"這已經不是第一次了"},{"start":2809.78,"end":2812.78,"text":"因為在現在不附屬的七個法案裡面"},{"start":2812.78,"end":2815.78,"text":"有兩個就是有限廣播電視法"},{"start":2815.78,"end":2818.78,"text":"而兩個都是在交通委員會經過"},{"start":2818.78,"end":2822.78,"text":"不管是尋答不管是逐條不管是充分溝通討論"},{"start":2822.78,"end":2824.78,"text":"我再次強調有跡可循"},{"start":2824.78,"end":2827.78,"text":"而且有記錄可以來做一個檢視"},{"start":2827.78,"end":2832.78,"text":"是國民黨民進黨民眾黨三黨團的委員全部都支持"},{"start":2832.78,"end":2836.78,"text":"NCC主管機關也支持的情況下"},{"start":2836.78,"end":2840.78,"text":"到最後修法通過不須經過表決的版本"},{"start":2840.78,"end":2845.78,"text":"而竟然二三讀通過之後行政院選擇不附屬"},{"start":2845.78,"end":2846.78,"text":"如果說此例一開"},{"start":2846.78,"end":2849.78,"text":"而已經不是一開了是兩開了"},{"start":2849.78,"end":2851.78,"text":"此例兩開的話"},{"start":2851.78,"end":2854.78,"text":"那未來委員會制度也當然無存"},{"start":2854.78,"end":2857.78,"text":"NCC的行使獨立也當然無存"},{"start":2857.78,"end":2859.78,"text":"所以我今天再一次強調"},{"start":2859.78,"end":2862.78,"text":"未來我在尋答稍以後問NCC的委員"},{"start":2862.78,"end":2865.78,"text":"他們對於這樣的一個做法跟態度是為何"},{"start":2865.78,"end":2869.78,"text":"如果說沒有辦法捍衛NCC的獨立行使機關的一個權利的話"},{"start":2869.78,"end":2871.78,"text":"那這樣子我們沒有辦法相信"},{"start":2871.78,"end":2873.78,"text":"他有辦法未來四年任期"},{"start":2873.78,"end":2876.78,"text":"可以不受行政院的壓力"},{"start":2876.78,"end":2879.78,"text":"可以捍衛台灣兩千三百五十萬人"},{"start":2879.78,"end":2883.78,"text":"視聽的權利以及對於上面長官"},{"start":2883.78,"end":2885.78,"text":"如果要交辦任何事情的話"},{"start":2885.78,"end":2887.78,"text":"我們不知道這個黑手會不會深入"},{"start":2887.78,"end":2889.78,"text":"因此今天再次利用公聽會"},{"start":2889.78,"end":2893.78,"text":"我會點出這兩個主張跟表達我的意見"},{"start":2893.78,"end":2895.78,"text":"那也再聆聽各位專家學者的意見"},{"start":2895.78,"end":2897.78,"text":"我們一起共同努力"},{"start":2897.78,"end":2900.78,"text":"為台灣為中華民國繼續打拼"},{"start":2900.78,"end":2901.78,"text":"感謝大家謝謝"},{"start":2904.81,"end":2905.31,"text":"好"},{"start":2906.18,"end":2908.18,"text":"好我們謝謝黃委員"},{"start":2908.1,"end":2912.1,"text":"好接下來我們要請甄妮大學法律系的吳景青教授"},{"start":2912.1,"end":2914.1,"text":"景夫老師"},{"start":2922.9,"end":2924.9,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":2924.69,"end":2929.69,"text":"好那這個今天來提供這個意見"},{"start":2929.69,"end":2931.69,"text":"大概也沒有辦法提供什麼意見"},{"start":2931.69,"end":2934.69,"text":"因為我還是先提一下"},{"start":2934.69,"end":2936.69,"text":"今天我都是在提問"},{"start":2936.69,"end":2938.69,"text":"那首先第一個是"},{"start":2938.69,"end":2940.69,"text":"在這麼有限的時間"},{"start":2940.69,"end":2942.69,"text":"當然這個很緊迫"},{"start":2942.69,"end":2944.69,"text":"但是基本上我一直每一次"},{"start":2944.69,"end":2949.69,"text":"今年我是來立法院最多人士同意選的公聽會"},{"start":2949.69,"end":2951.69,"text":"那我對於這個提供的順便資料"},{"start":2951.69,"end":2954.69,"text":"順便資料我真的是每一次來我都要先講這個問題"},{"start":2954.69,"end":2958.69,"text":"這個在我看來真的是比高中生"},{"start":2958.69,"end":2962.69,"text":"在推增入學的書面資料還糟糕"},{"start":2962.69,"end":2964.69,"text":"那這個可能有很多的問題"},{"start":2964.69,"end":2967.69,"text":"包括立法院這邊可能要檢討一下"},{"start":2967.69,"end":2968.69,"text":"是不是那麼自私"},{"start":2968.69,"end":2970.69,"text":"現在都AI時代還那麼自私"},{"start":2970.69,"end":2973.69,"text":"用這種方式要他們寫自傳期許"},{"start":2973.69,"end":2976.69,"text":"要有重大政策要聚焦"},{"start":2976.69,"end":2978.69,"text":"我們學者來我花了很多時間"},{"start":2978.69,"end":2980.69,"text":"你看我貼了這麼多"},{"start":2981.15,"end":2983.15,"text":"即使這麼糟糕的書面資料"},{"start":2983.15,"end":2985.15,"text":"我還是要發信息去看"},{"start":2985.15,"end":2987.15,"text":"這個是我第一個問題"},{"start":2987.15,"end":2989.15,"text":"然後再來NCC的委員最後就是兩個"},{"start":2989.15,"end":2991.15,"text":"一個就是獨立性一個就是專業性"},{"start":2991.15,"end":2994.15,"text":"那這七位委員你說"},{"start":2994.15,"end":2997.15,"text":"專業性大概看起來沒有什麼問題"},{"start":2997.15,"end":3000.15,"text":"那只是說獨立性中立性的問題"},{"start":3000.15,"end":3003.15,"text":"這個我們沒有辦法從他的過去去推未來"},{"start":3003.15,"end":3005.15,"text":"所以呢我只能提問"},{"start":3005.15,"end":3009.15,"text":"這個就是我要針對NCC委員"},{"start":3009.15,"end":3011.15,"text":"他必須要回答的這個問題"},{"start":3011.15,"end":3014.15,"text":"那首先第一個就是說這個是"},{"start":3014.15,"end":3018.15,"text":"國家通訊總統組織法第一條宣誓的原則"},{"start":3018.15,"end":3026.15,"text":"表示NCC這個看一下他的任務職責真的太多了"},{"start":3026.15,"end":3029.15,"text":"那首先應該每一個NCC的委員"},{"start":3029.15,"end":3032.15,"text":"可能被提名的都要回答一個問題"},{"start":3032.72,"end":3034.72,"text":"假設這一次沒過的話"},{"start":3035.83,"end":3038.83,"text":"這些NCC所執掌的業務"},{"start":3038.83,"end":3040.83,"text":"有沒有不可替代性"},{"start":3040.83,"end":3043.83,"text":"我覺得這是每一個NCC一定要回答的問題"},{"start":3043.83,"end":3045.83,"text":"你是不是具有不可替代性"},{"start":3045.83,"end":3049.83,"text":"因為列了這麼多的原則"},{"start":3049.83,"end":3051.83,"text":"那麼多的職權"},{"start":3051.83,"end":3055.83,"text":"那一定要跟其他機關有相互的衝突"},{"start":3055.83,"end":3058.83,"text":"或者是說好像你是不是有這個必要"},{"start":3058.83,"end":3061.83,"text":"首先你就要簡單的講就是說"},{"start":3061.83,"end":3064.83,"text":"每一個NCC的被提名的都要回答一個問題"},{"start":3064.83,"end":3067.83,"text":"你是不是具有不可替代性"},{"start":3067.83,"end":3070.83,"text":"然後再來因為我發現這個書面資料"},{"start":3070.83,"end":3072.83,"text":"可能是主委跟副主委"},{"start":3072.83,"end":3074.83,"text":"這兩個位置比較重要"},{"start":3074.83,"end":3075.83,"text":"他們寫的比較多"},{"start":3075.83,"end":3077.83,"text":"越後面越少"},{"start":3077.83,"end":3079.83,"text":"我根本看到後面我不知道"},{"start":3079.83,"end":3081.83,"text":"我來這邊要提供什麼意見"},{"start":3081.83,"end":3084.83,"text":"所以我就只針對主委的部分"},{"start":3084.83,"end":3086.83,"text":"製作的部分那個自吹自擂我就不講了"},{"start":3086.83,"end":3088.83,"text":"每個人都很偉大"},{"start":3088.83,"end":3090.83,"text":"好 那我就只針對主委的部分"},{"start":3090.83,"end":3093.83,"text":"因為他代表的是整個NCC的自我期許"},{"start":3093.83,"end":3095.83,"text":"還有重大政策的部分"},{"start":3095.83,"end":3099.83,"text":"首先他提到了一個非常重要的問題"},{"start":3099.83,"end":3103.83,"text":"就是說在現在那個AI科技發展的這個時代"},{"start":3103.83,"end":3107.83,"text":"那NCC你也要做監管"},{"start":3107.83,"end":3109.83,"text":"那這兩個怎麼去平衡"},{"start":3109.83,"end":3113.83,"text":"那因為他雖然相對後面來講他寫的比較多"},{"start":3113.83,"end":3115.83,"text":"但是有一個問題"},{"start":3115.83,"end":3117.83,"text":"他提到是說"},{"start":3117.83,"end":3120.83,"text":"所謂的要導入預選跟風險管理"},{"start":3120.83,"end":3122.83,"text":"這個到底是什麼意思"},{"start":3122.83,"end":3124.83,"text":"因為這個實在是太抽象了"},{"start":3124.83,"end":3128.83,"text":"因為是他裡面提到的某一些東西"},{"start":3128.83,"end":3130.83,"text":"比如說什麼數位包容"},{"start":3130.83,"end":3132.83,"text":"性別平衡第一線打仗"},{"start":3132.83,"end":3133.83,"text":"這就是我剛才講的"},{"start":3133.83,"end":3136.83,"text":"這些都會跟其他的機關"},{"start":3136.83,"end":3139.83,"text":"會有相互的可能是職權碰撞"},{"start":3139.83,"end":3141.83,"text":"或者需要磨合的地方"},{"start":3141.83,"end":3144.83,"text":"這個部分他只是提出一些很抽象的原則"},{"start":3144.83,"end":3149.83,"text":"然後再來轉到就是這個媒體的這個"},{"start":3149.83,"end":3152.83,"text":"傳播的這個治理跟平台問責的問題"},{"start":3152.83,"end":3155.83,"text":"那針對這個就是我覺得蠻重要的"},{"start":3155.83,"end":3157.83,"text":"就是說現在大家在講這兩個重點"},{"start":3157.83,"end":3159.83,"text":"一個是假訊息的問題"},{"start":3159.83,"end":3161.83,"text":"一個是詐騙的問題"},{"start":3161.83,"end":3164.83,"text":"好那首先就面臨一個很大的問題"},{"start":3164.83,"end":3166.83,"text":"這兩個問題事實上是差不多的"},{"start":3166.83,"end":3170.83,"text":"我們就以這個詐欺防治危害條例"},{"start":3170.83,"end":3172.83,"text":"這個部分來講好了"},{"start":3172.83,"end":3176.83,"text":"這個部分老實講我們賦予給"},{"start":3176.83,"end":3179.83,"text":"不管是電信機或不管是這個NCC"},{"start":3179.83,"end":3181.83,"text":"或者是數位發展部"},{"start":3181.83,"end":3183.83,"text":"他一個很大的權限就是說"},{"start":3183.83,"end":3188.83,"text":"我只要疑似是詐可能是詐騙的網頁網站"},{"start":3188.83,"end":3189.83,"text":"我可以怎樣"},{"start":3189.83,"end":3193.83,"text":"我可能可以把它斷訊或者是斷網的方式"},{"start":3193.83,"end":3195.83,"text":"好那現在問題來了"},{"start":3195.83,"end":3201.83,"text":"那你NCC如何去判斷什麼叫真什麼叫假"},{"start":3201.83,"end":3202.83,"text":"什麼是詐騙"},{"start":3202.83,"end":3204.83,"text":"因為這個會涉及到什麼"},{"start":3204.83,"end":3206.83,"text":"涉及到言論自由的問題"},{"start":3206.83,"end":3209.83,"text":"然後再來所謂的問責機制"},{"start":3209.83,"end":3210.83,"text":"那誰來問"},{"start":3212.58,"end":3214.58,"text":"誰來就責誰來問"},{"start":3214.58,"end":3216.58,"text":"好所以呢這裡呢"},{"start":3216.58,"end":3217.58,"text":"在這個監管的問題"},{"start":3217.58,"end":3219.58,"text":"當然是NCC很重要的一個職責"},{"start":3219.58,"end":3220.58,"text":"但你怎麼跟其他一級組"},{"start":3220.58,"end":3224.58,"text":"我重點就是你怎麼去判斷什麼是真什麼是假"},{"start":3224.58,"end":3226.58,"text":"然後再來就是呢"},{"start":3226.58,"end":3229.58,"text":"因為這個時間真的很有限"},{"start":3229.58,"end":3232.58,"text":"所以我直接跳到最後重大的政策的問題"},{"start":3232.58,"end":3235.58,"text":"就是說這兩個科技監管跟法官鬆綁"},{"start":3235.58,"end":3237.58,"text":"到底怎麼去解決"},{"start":3237.58,"end":3241.58,"text":"因為是剛才也有專家提到那個換政的問題"},{"start":3242.58,"end":3245.58,"text":"你這裡呢這個主委的被聽名要強調"},{"start":3245.58,"end":3248.58,"text":"他要輔導自律要大於他律"},{"start":3248.58,"end":3249.58,"text":"但問題來了"},{"start":3249.58,"end":3252.58,"text":"這個憑藉換照到底是自律他律"},{"start":3252.58,"end":3254.58,"text":"然後呢主委提到外部申訴到底什麼"},{"start":3254.58,"end":3258.58,"text":"目前整個關於換照的程序"},{"start":3258.58,"end":3260.58,"text":"到底公不公平透不透明"},{"start":3260.58,"end":3261.58,"text":"你用什麼方式"},{"start":3261.58,"end":3263.58,"text":"你這裡講的外部到底是什麼意思"},{"start":3263.58,"end":3265.58,"text":"這個都沒有講得很清楚"},{"start":3265.58,"end":3268.58,"text":"好那我最後就是提出了剛才呢"},{"start":3268.58,"end":3270.58,"text":"因為我委員提到的"},{"start":3270.58,"end":3272.58,"text":"這一次的被聽一定要回答這個問題"},{"start":3272.58,"end":3274.58,"text":"因為這兩個都是你們的主管事項"},{"start":3274.58,"end":3276.58,"text":"就這兩個電視法"},{"start":3277.36,"end":3279.36,"text":"黨政軍你們對於這個新修法條"},{"start":3279.36,"end":3281.36,"text":"你沒有什麼幹話你是支持還是反對"},{"start":3281.36,"end":3283.36,"text":"更重要的是行政院到底呢"},{"start":3283.36,"end":3285.36,"text":"他不附屬你也要表達意見"},{"start":3285.36,"end":3287.36,"text":"所以我的最後還是那個老問題"},{"start":3287.36,"end":3290.36,"text":"不管是為了打詐或打假"},{"start":3290.36,"end":3293.36,"text":"那你要怎麼去面對虛假跟真實"},{"start":3293.36,"end":3297.36,"text":"以及呢你NCC憑什麼可以做這件事"},{"start":3297.36,"end":3299.36,"text":"你以你的程序的正當性謝謝"},{"start":3306.32,"end":3308.32,"text":"好非常感謝"},{"start":3309.17,"end":3311.17,"text":"另外我們也補充介紹剛到場的"},{"start":3311.17,"end":3315.17,"text":"我們原汁大學資訊管理系的周應才教授"},{"start":3315.17,"end":3317.17,"text":"周老師"},{"start":3318.18,"end":3320.18,"text":"好接下來我們再邀請"},{"start":3320.18,"end":3323.18,"text":"世新大學可以傳播及社群媒體學系的"},{"start":3323.18,"end":3325.18,"text":"溫偉群溫老師"},{"start":3335.63,"end":3337.63,"text":"各位先進各位專家大家好大家好"},{"start":3340.69,"end":3343.69,"text":"那非常榮幸可以到立法院來參加"},{"start":3343.69,"end":3347.69,"text":"有關於NCC主委跟副主委以及委員的提名的公聽會"},{"start":3347.69,"end":3350.69,"text":"那來到這個地方呢我看了這個資料"},{"start":3350.69,"end":3352.69,"text":"雖然剛才我們委員我們一些專家表示說"},{"start":3352.69,"end":3355.69,"text":"這個資料內容的確有一些好像可以來優化的地方"},{"start":3355.69,"end":3357.69,"text":"不過還是仔細的閱讀"},{"start":3357.69,"end":3361.69,"text":"那這次閱讀過程當中呢發現至少有兩位委員"},{"start":3361.69,"end":3363.69,"text":"特別強調社會的信任"},{"start":3363.69,"end":3367.69,"text":"那麼特別呢是我們的主委的被提名人"},{"start":3367.69,"end":3369.69,"text":"特別他說我引述他的講法"},{"start":3369.69,"end":3372.69,"text":"NCC應該脫離傳統管制者的角色"},{"start":3372.69,"end":3375.69,"text":"轉型成信任推動者"},{"start":3375.69,"end":3377.69,"text":"我覺得這兩個呢講得非常正確"},{"start":3377.69,"end":3382.69,"text":"那當然社會上很多媒體上面關心的是NCC的人士"},{"start":3382.69,"end":3384.69,"text":"會不會趕快有委員能不能趕快通過"},{"start":3384.69,"end":3387.69,"text":"那沒有通過是不是就是政黨惡鬥"},{"start":3387.69,"end":3388.69,"text":"很多人都關心這個事情"},{"start":3388.69,"end":3393.69,"text":"不過在我看起來委員的品質的好與不好"},{"start":3393.69,"end":3398.69,"text":"中立與不中立恐怕比起你現在是不是立刻"},{"start":3398.69,"end":3403.69,"text":"這個政黨的協商或者是立法院的生態可能更重要"},{"start":3403.69,"end":3406.69,"text":"那我自己過去也是跑立法院的記者"},{"start":3406.69,"end":3409.69,"text":"那長期過去也在跑這個司法警政的路線"},{"start":3409.69,"end":3411.69,"text":"那麼我在傳播交易服務很多年"},{"start":3411.69,"end":3416.69,"text":"那目前我也擔任這個有些電視台的這個倫理委員"},{"start":3416.69,"end":3418.69,"text":"所以呢我今天想要報告的"},{"start":3418.69,"end":3419.69,"text":"我覺得時間很短"},{"start":3419.69,"end":3422.69,"text":"所以呢我就只行就中間兩點到三點"},{"start":3422.69,"end":3424.69,"text":"那我提供的書面資料如果講不完的話呢"},{"start":3424.69,"end":3426.69,"text":"我就先把前面兩點先講完"},{"start":3426.69,"end":3429.69,"text":"那我特別要強調就是有關信任的因素"},{"start":3429.69,"end":3433.69,"text":"我認為社會的信任其實最重要的地方"},{"start":3433.69,"end":3436.69,"text":"並不是只是委員說我是這個中立"},{"start":3436.69,"end":3440.69,"text":"我是超黨派或者是我形式上的政黨"},{"start":3440.69,"end":3443.69,"text":"並沒有超過二分之一這樣就算數了"},{"start":3443.69,"end":3446.69,"text":"那我覺得比較重要的事情是你做了什麼"},{"start":3446.69,"end":3449.69,"text":"那我舉一兩個例子來看"},{"start":3449.69,"end":3450.69,"text":"雖然我們現在很多人批評"},{"start":3450.69,"end":3452.69,"text":"我們現在電視新聞的品質不太好"},{"start":3452.69,"end":3453.69,"text":"但是我每天還是很認真的看"},{"start":3453.69,"end":3455.69,"text":"因為除了我教學之外呢"},{"start":3455.69,"end":3457.69,"text":"我覺得蠻重要一件事情"},{"start":3457.69,"end":3459.69,"text":"這還是我們人民獲取資訊非常重要的管道"},{"start":3459.69,"end":3461.69,"text":"那舉一兩個很小的例子"},{"start":3461.69,"end":3463.69,"text":"大概這一兩個很小的例子呢"},{"start":3463.69,"end":3466.69,"text":"都跟NCC這個過去的這個執法有關"},{"start":3466.69,"end":3470.69,"text":"第一個地方是滿滿的馬賽克"},{"start":3470.69,"end":3472.69,"text":"你如果看全世界的新聞"},{"start":3472.69,"end":3474.69,"text":"台灣大概是比較特別的"},{"start":3474.69,"end":3476.69,"text":"台灣的馬賽克打得非常多"},{"start":3476.69,"end":3478.69,"text":"如果你進一步去問電視台主管"},{"start":3478.69,"end":3480.69,"text":"包括我們在倫理委員會開會的時候"},{"start":3480.69,"end":3481.69,"text":"很多電視台主管會說"},{"start":3481.69,"end":3483.69,"text":"因為我擔心被處罰"},{"start":3483.69,"end":3486.69,"text":"那NCC當然很多年前就已經宣誓過說呢"},{"start":3486.69,"end":3490.69,"text":"大家別誤會我們NCC沒有強迫電視台打馬賽克"},{"start":3490.69,"end":3493.69,"text":"可是因為大家不相信"},{"start":3493.69,"end":3494.69,"text":"大家沒有信心"},{"start":3494.69,"end":3496.69,"text":"我再舉第二個很簡單的例子"},{"start":3496.69,"end":3499.69,"text":"現在大家發現在電視台上面不能講Costco"},{"start":3499.69,"end":3501.69,"text":"大家要講美式賣場"},{"start":3501.69,"end":3503.69,"text":"不能講麥當勞要講美式速食店"},{"start":3503.69,"end":3507.69,"text":"不能講Uniqlo要講日式的平價服飾店"},{"start":3507.69,"end":3511.69,"text":"類似這樣子的遮遮掩掩國光的新衣的做法呢"},{"start":3511.69,"end":3513.69,"text":"其實如果你去問第一線的記者"},{"start":3513.69,"end":3514.69,"text":"他也不想寫成這樣"},{"start":3514.69,"end":3516.69,"text":"因為大家都知道你在講什麼"},{"start":3516.69,"end":3517.69,"text":"你卻不能講什麼"},{"start":3517.69,"end":3520.69,"text":"那原因就是因為記者也很怕被罰"},{"start":3520.69,"end":3523.69,"text":"所以你只舉兩個很簡單的例子"},{"start":3523.69,"end":3525.69,"text":"其他還有很多很多的例子"},{"start":3525.69,"end":3527.69,"text":"那這些例子裡面你會發現"},{"start":3527.69,"end":3529.69,"text":"其實背後有一件非常重要的事情"},{"start":3529.69,"end":3530.69,"text":"就是社會信任"},{"start":3530.69,"end":3531.69,"text":"那這個社會信任呢"},{"start":3531.69,"end":3533.69,"text":"當然來自於大家會看說"},{"start":3533.69,"end":3536.69,"text":"法規上面廣電三法這樣規定"},{"start":3536.69,"end":3538.69,"text":"可是你裁罰的標準不一樣"},{"start":3538.69,"end":3540.69,"text":"比方說有些電視台主管"},{"start":3540.69,"end":3542.69,"text":"比方說有些電視台"},{"start":3542.69,"end":3546.69,"text":"如果被你說違反那個付款就關台"},{"start":3546.69,"end":3549.69,"text":"那有些電視台呢叫做改正或罰款"},{"start":3549.69,"end":3550.69,"text":"你會發現這中間呢"},{"start":3550.69,"end":3552.69,"text":"那個輕重的差別是有別的"},{"start":3552.69,"end":3553.69,"text":"這是第一點"},{"start":3553.69,"end":3555.69,"text":"第二件事情我過去是媒體記者"},{"start":3555.69,"end":3559.69,"text":"那我也非常重視有關於新聞室裡面"},{"start":3559.69,"end":3560.69,"text":"我們的言論自由"},{"start":3560.69,"end":3563.69,"text":"NCC的組織法的第一條裡面"},{"start":3563.69,"end":3564.69,"text":"就明確規定"},{"start":3564.69,"end":3566.69,"text":"其中一個非常重要就保障言論自由"},{"start":3566.69,"end":3569.69,"text":"而言論自由跟編輯室的自主"},{"start":3569.69,"end":3570.69,"text":"非常有關係"},{"start":3570.69,"end":3572.69,"text":"那我記得2019年的時候"},{"start":3572.69,"end":3573.69,"text":"當時這個中天新聞"},{"start":3573.69,"end":3577.69,"text":"因為被說這個播這個特定的政治人物"},{"start":3577.69,"end":3579.69,"text":"也就是現在立法院長韓國瑜太多"},{"start":3579.69,"end":3582.69,"text":"那也包括說還有新聞專業理由"},{"start":3582.69,"end":3584.69,"text":"當時這個NCC的說法說"},{"start":3584.69,"end":3587.69,"text":"不排除命其撤換新聞部主管"},{"start":3587.69,"end":3589.69,"text":"那媒體記者來問我說這個是越界"},{"start":3589.69,"end":3591.69,"text":"那當時NCC的回覆是說"},{"start":3591.69,"end":3594.69,"text":"2007年的時候曾經也叫TVBS"},{"start":3594.69,"end":3597.69,"text":"撤換這個新聞主管"},{"start":3597.69,"end":3599.69,"text":"事實上如果你去看2007年的案子"},{"start":3599.69,"end":3600.69,"text":"那個周正寶案"},{"start":3600.69,"end":3602.69,"text":"那是完全不一樣的案子"},{"start":3602.69,"end":3604.69,"text":"那周正寶案當時那個是一個記者"},{"start":3604.69,"end":3608.69,"text":"實際上參與拍攝持槍恐嚇影片"},{"start":3608.69,"end":3611.69,"text":"然後編輯室也有其他不一樣的地方"},{"start":3611.69,"end":3614.69,"text":"如果你在這個新聞室的這個"},{"start":3614.69,"end":3615.69,"text":"有關人事權的部分"},{"start":3615.69,"end":3617.69,"text":"我們是一個民主國家"},{"start":3617.69,"end":3619.69,"text":"如果你不能確定只是說"},{"start":3619.69,"end":3620.69,"text":"這個有關政治人物"},{"start":3620.69,"end":3622.69,"text":"你不喜歡的政治人物播太多"},{"start":3622.69,"end":3623.69,"text":"或這樣的一個情況"},{"start":3623.69,"end":3624.69,"text":"你就有這樣的考慮"},{"start":3624.69,"end":3626.69,"text":"要介入那個新聞室的人事的話"},{"start":3626.69,"end":3628.69,"text":"這個是一個非常大的疑慮"},{"start":3628.69,"end":3630.69,"text":"那麼第三點我也要講一下就是"},{"start":3630.69,"end":3634.69,"text":"現在這個我們NCC也要面對到"},{"start":3634.69,"end":3637.69,"text":"外界有關於這個正媒共生的問題"},{"start":3637.69,"end":3641.69,"text":"那麼在2024年卸任的兩位前委員"},{"start":3641.69,"end":3643.69,"text":"林委員跟這個王委員"},{"start":3643.69,"end":3645.69,"text":"他們在臨別的見言裡面"},{"start":3645.69,"end":3647.69,"text":"都講到說有正媒共生的情況"},{"start":3647.69,"end":3650.69,"text":"而很不幸的到今年3月"},{"start":3650.69,"end":3652.69,"text":"那我們另外一位NCC的前委員"},{"start":3652.69,"end":3655.69,"text":"也因為這個有關電信業者顧問案"},{"start":3655.69,"end":3657.69,"text":"目前臺北地院的一審"},{"start":3657.69,"end":3659.69,"text":"目前也是判刑的"},{"start":3659.69,"end":3660.69,"text":"那有關於這些地方"},{"start":3660.69,"end":3663.69,"text":"我覺得必須把它釐清"},{"start":3663.69,"end":3665.69,"text":"那我剛剛這個時間有限"},{"start":3665.69,"end":3667.69,"text":"那我必須要講的事情是"},{"start":3667.69,"end":3669.69,"text":"所有社會的信任"},{"start":3669.69,"end":3671.69,"text":"也就是NCC通過的基礎"},{"start":3671.69,"end":3674.69,"text":"它必須來自NCC每一個決定"},{"start":3674.69,"end":3678.69,"text":"以及經常所做的這樣的一個處理"},{"start":3678.69,"end":3679.69,"text":"這不是只是一個人事案"},{"start":3679.69,"end":3681.69,"text":"通不通過的問題"},{"start":3681.69,"end":3682.69,"text":"也不是速度都快的問題"},{"start":3682.69,"end":3685.69,"text":"整個我們言論自由的品質"},{"start":3685.69,"end":3686.69,"text":"我們新聞的品質"},{"start":3686.69,"end":3687.69,"text":"是很大的程度"},{"start":3687.69,"end":3689.69,"text":"送到NCC過去怎麼執法的影響"},{"start":3689.69,"end":3691.69,"text":"所以我這邊要鄭重呼籲"},{"start":3691.69,"end":3693.69,"text":"那雖然今天NCC的被提名人"},{"start":3693.69,"end":3694.69,"text":"似乎是不在現場"},{"start":3694.69,"end":3696.69,"text":"不過我相信書面資料他們看得到"},{"start":3696.69,"end":3697.69,"text":"那以上的見言謝謝"},{"start":3702.41,"end":3703.41,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":3704.33,"end":3706.33,"text":"好我們謝謝文教授"},{"start":3706.33,"end":3708.33,"text":"好接下來我們邀請"},{"start":3708.33,"end":3711.33,"text":"世新大學傳播博士學位學生"},{"start":3711.33,"end":3713.33,"text":"游子祥游老師"},{"start":3720.73,"end":3722.73,"text":"主席各位學者專家"},{"start":3722.73,"end":3724.73,"text":"還有在座的各位大家好"},{"start":3724.73,"end":3727.73,"text":"我在世新大學教了30年書"},{"start":3727.73,"end":3730.73,"text":"但是我之前帶過有線電視台"},{"start":3730.73,"end":3731.73,"text":"無線電視台"},{"start":3731.73,"end":3734.73,"text":"我也做過台北市政府的新聞處處長"},{"start":3734.73,"end":3737.73,"text":"我想用這些專業跟實務的經驗"},{"start":3737.73,"end":3740.73,"text":"來分享一下我對這一次"},{"start":3740.73,"end":3743.73,"text":"NCC的委員提名審查的看法"},{"start":3743.73,"end":3746.73,"text":"首先我想從一個比較遙遠的例子說起"},{"start":3746.73,"end":3749.73,"text":"各位知道在美國今年"},{"start":3749.73,"end":3751.73,"text":"所有重要位置的提名"},{"start":3751.73,"end":3753.73,"text":"或是法官的提名"},{"start":3753.73,"end":3755.73,"text":"經常都被問到一個問題"},{"start":3755.73,"end":3759.73,"text":"這個問題是請問你2020年"},{"start":3759.73,"end":3762.73,"text":"拜登有沒有當選美國總統"},{"start":3762.73,"end":3764.73,"text":"那是6年前的事"},{"start":3764.73,"end":3767.73,"text":"結果今年美國一大堆被提名人"},{"start":3767.73,"end":3769.73,"text":"都被問到這個問題"},{"start":3769.73,"end":3772.73,"text":"為什麼而且甚至連準會主席"},{"start":3772.73,"end":3774.73,"text":"都被問到這個問題"},{"start":3774.73,"end":3775.73,"text":"很多人會想"},{"start":3775.73,"end":3777.73,"text":"為什麼問他這個問題呢"},{"start":3777.73,"end":3778.73,"text":"我可以告訴各位"},{"start":3778.73,"end":3781.73,"text":"這不是6年前的問題"},{"start":3781.73,"end":3784.73,"text":"因為如果你連這麼基本的是非"},{"start":3784.73,"end":3786.73,"text":"這麼基本的事實"},{"start":3786.73,"end":3788.73,"text":"都說不出一個道理的話"},{"start":3788.73,"end":3794.73,"text":"你沒有資格沒有能力擔任任何的位置"},{"start":3794.73,"end":3796.73,"text":"所以我今天想講的"},{"start":3796.73,"end":3798.73,"text":"我非常同意剛剛吳教授的說法"},{"start":3798.73,"end":3801.73,"text":"我們必須要問委員很多的問題"},{"start":3801.73,"end":3804.73,"text":"來瞭解他們的背景到底是什麼"},{"start":3804.73,"end":3808.73,"text":"我認為有幾個問題是一定要回答的"},{"start":3808.73,"end":3810.73,"text":"如果我來問的話"},{"start":3810.73,"end":3812.73,"text":"第一對於中天這件事情"},{"start":3812.73,"end":3815.73,"text":"我非常需要知道不同的委員"},{"start":3815.73,"end":3817.73,"text":"是採取什麼態度"},{"start":3817.73,"end":3819.73,"text":"你不要告訴我那是2020的事"},{"start":3819.73,"end":3822.73,"text":"那是很多年以前的事情"},{"start":3822.73,"end":3825.73,"text":"但是它是重要的"},{"start":3825.73,"end":3827.73,"text":"因為它能夠反映你能不能"},{"start":3827.73,"end":3829.73,"text":"獨立專業的行使職權"},{"start":3829.73,"end":3832.73,"text":"所以我想問的是NCC的"},{"start":3832.73,"end":3834.73,"text":"對於中天這個撤照"},{"start":3834.73,"end":3838.73,"text":"到底委員們認為符不符合比例原則"},{"start":3838.73,"end":3843.73,"text":"在這麼多的法庭判出了相關案件的判決之後"},{"start":3843.73,"end":3846.73,"text":"你是不是還認為要使出撤照"},{"start":3846.73,"end":3850.73,"text":"如此對於一個民主國家非常嚴重的手段"},{"start":3850.73,"end":3853.73,"text":"第二個問題最近才發生的"},{"start":3853.73,"end":3856.73,"text":"NCC可能認為不一定是它主管的項目"},{"start":3856.73,"end":3860.73,"text":"就是網友模仿了我們總統的"},{"start":3860.73,"end":3862.73,"text":"類似總統的聲音"},{"start":3862.73,"end":3865.73,"text":"然後製造了一個影片"},{"start":3865.73,"end":3868.73,"text":"但這個影片是明顯的嘲諷性質"},{"start":3868.73,"end":3871.73,"text":"一般有正常理性的人"},{"start":3871.73,"end":3874.73,"text":"是不可能認為那個聲音"},{"start":3874.73,"end":3876.73,"text":"是來自我們現任的"},{"start":3876.73,"end":3878.73,"text":"我們國家的元首的"},{"start":3878.73,"end":3882.73,"text":"但是這個案子卻被司法追溯"},{"start":3882.73,"end":3885.73,"text":"我非常想知道的是委員對這樣的問題"},{"start":3885.73,"end":3887.73,"text":"有什麼看法"},{"start":3887.73,"end":3891.73,"text":"我認為一個好的委員必須是專業的"},{"start":3891.73,"end":3892.73,"text":"必須是獨立的"},{"start":3892.73,"end":3894.73,"text":"獨立是什麼意思呢"},{"start":3894.73,"end":3895.73,"text":"台灣很多人會認為"},{"start":3895.73,"end":3897.73,"text":"獨立就是你沒有黨派"},{"start":3897.73,"end":3902.73,"text":"可是我也剛剛非常同意前面幾位專家的意見"},{"start":3903.67,"end":3906.67,"text":"沒有黨派我不認為是一個很好的標準"},{"start":3906.67,"end":3907.67,"text":"因為為什麼呢"},{"start":3907.67,"end":3911.67,"text":"他可能沒有剛性政黨的黨籍"},{"start":3911.67,"end":3913.67,"text":"可是他事實上立場非常強烈"},{"start":3913.67,"end":3915.67,"text":"所以真正要問的是"},{"start":3915.67,"end":3917.67,"text":"他是不是能超出黨派"},{"start":3917.67,"end":3920.67,"text":"每個人我們都有民主社會的選擇"},{"start":3920.67,"end":3922.67,"text":"他能不能超出黨派"},{"start":3922.67,"end":3925.67,"text":"最基本的標準就是同樣的問題"},{"start":3925.67,"end":3927.67,"text":"換了顏色換了政黨"},{"start":3927.67,"end":3930.67,"text":"你能不能夠公平的面對"},{"start":3930.67,"end":3932.67,"text":"我認為這個很重要"},{"start":3932.67,"end":3935.67,"text":"還有就是你能不能夠超出利益之外"},{"start":3935.67,"end":3940.67,"text":"你有沒有收受或是與相關的利害關係人"},{"start":3940.67,"end":3943.67,"text":"有關聯與你被監管的人有關聯"},{"start":3943.67,"end":3945.67,"text":"這些必須回答"},{"start":3945.67,"end":3949.67,"text":"那另外我也想舉出美國最近一次"},{"start":3949.67,"end":3952.67,"text":"FCC在通過委員的時候"},{"start":3952.67,"end":3954.67,"text":"我想念給大家聽一些"},{"start":3954.67,"end":3956.67,"text":"美國的國會議員"},{"start":3956.67,"end":3959.67,"text":"問FCC委員什麼問題"},{"start":3959.67,"end":3961.67,"text":"我就隨便念幾個"},{"start":3961.67,"end":3962.67,"text":"第一"},{"start":3962.87,"end":3965.87,"text":"你認為FCC應該被武器化"},{"start":3965.87,"end":3968.87,"text":"用來對付媒體組織嗎"},{"start":3968.87,"end":3974.87,"text":"你是否會拒絕FCC阻礙或限制新聞自由的行動"},{"start":3974.87,"end":3977.87,"text":"FCC可不可以用併購審查"},{"start":3977.87,"end":3980.87,"text":"評普審查執照等權利"},{"start":3980.87,"end":3984.87,"text":"威脅不認同執政黨的公司"},{"start":3984.87,"end":3990.87,"text":"還有川普多次主張撤銷CBS ABC NBC的執照"},{"start":3990.87,"end":3994.87,"text":"你是不是反對用FCC恐嚇媒體"},{"start":3994.87,"end":3998.87,"text":"FCC獨立於總統之外是否重要"},{"start":3998.87,"end":3999.87,"text":"我就先念到這裡"},{"start":3999.87,"end":4000.87,"text":"他們的問題很多"},{"start":4000.87,"end":4002.87,"text":"但是各位可以知道"},{"start":4002.87,"end":4006.87,"text":"美國在審查的時候是非常重視這些問題的"},{"start":4006.87,"end":4009.87,"text":"而且還有我們知道"},{"start":4009.87,"end":4013.87,"text":"川普雖然講了很多次他要撤銷媒體的執照"},{"start":4013.87,"end":4017.87,"text":"但是到現在為止他做的最激烈的動作"},{"start":4017.87,"end":4021.87,"text":"就是把幾家地方電視台提前審查"},{"start":4021.87,"end":4027.87,"text":"美國40年來並沒有真正發生任何撤銷媒體執照的案例"},{"start":4027.87,"end":4031.87,"text":"因為撤銷執照我前面說了是非常嚴重的"},{"start":4031.87,"end":4033.87,"text":"具體提到這次的提名人"},{"start":4033.87,"end":4037.87,"text":"我認為擔任主委的人必須證明"},{"start":4037.87,"end":4041.87,"text":"他對傳播對通訊有足夠的專業背景"},{"start":4041.87,"end":4043.87,"text":"但是我從相關資料裡"},{"start":4043.87,"end":4046.87,"text":"認為主委相對於其他的提名人"},{"start":4046.87,"end":4049.87,"text":"並沒有在這些方面有特別突出的條件"},{"start":4049.87,"end":4051.87,"text":"所以是不是也應該要說明一下"},{"start":4051.87,"end":4054.87,"text":"為何從中選擇為主委"},{"start":4054.87,"end":4055.87,"text":"第二呢"},{"start":4055.87,"end":4059.87,"text":"副主委的人選過去曾經寫過一篇文章"},{"start":4059.87,"end":4063.87,"text":"把馬英九媒體報導說"},{"start":4063.87,"end":4067.87,"text":"馬總統是因為支持九二共識當選總統"},{"start":4067.87,"end":4069.87,"text":"他居然能寫一篇文章說"},{"start":4069.87,"end":4073.87,"text":"這代表中國因素被消失"},{"start":4073.87,"end":4075.87,"text":"所以我們的媒體受到不當的影響"},{"start":4075.87,"end":4077.87,"text":"我看了很久啊"},{"start":4077.87,"end":4078.87,"text":"我不知道這是什麼邏輯啊"},{"start":4078.87,"end":4080.87,"text":"所以我想告訴各位的是"},{"start":4080.87,"end":4083.87,"text":"委員必須專業獨立"},{"start":4083.87,"end":4086.87,"text":"我們不能再讓我們的新聞自由被吃掉了"},{"start":4086.87,"end":4087.87,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":4092.13,"end":4094.13,"text":"好非常感謝游老師"},{"start":4094.13,"end":4098.13,"text":"接下來我們再邀請國立成功大學政治學系"},{"start":4098.13,"end":4100.13,"text":"王一範助理教授"},{"start":4106.14,"end":4109.14,"text":"主席各位選擇專家先進大家好"},{"start":4109.14,"end":4111.14,"text":"我是成大政經系的助理教授王一範"},{"start":4111.14,"end":4114.14,"text":"今天很榮幸來到立法院參加這個公聽會"},{"start":4114.14,"end":4117.14,"text":"前面也有幾位專家選手都有提到"},{"start":4117.14,"end":4119.14,"text":"在這幾次的提名人裡面"},{"start":4119.14,"end":4123.14,"text":"大概都有提到現在AI這個潮流應該怎麼運用"},{"start":4123.14,"end":4125.14,"text":"因為我本人的研究議題就是主要在AI上面"},{"start":4125.14,"end":4127.14,"text":"所以我就想說針對這個部分"},{"start":4127.14,"end":4130.14,"text":"提出一些意見或者議題給各位討論"},{"start":4130.14,"end":4132.14,"text":"首先我們都知道"},{"start":4132.14,"end":4134.14,"text":"聖誕市AI在2023年之後"},{"start":4134.14,"end":4136.14,"text":"它的發展可以說是日新月異"},{"start":4136.14,"end":4138.14,"text":"它的功能無論從所謂的"},{"start":4138.14,"end":4140.14,"text":"China GPT Google Gemini"},{"start":4140.14,"end":4143.14,"text":"它的各項功能其實發展都非常的快速"},{"start":4143.14,"end":4146.14,"text":"也很快速的進入大家的生活"},{"start":4146.14,"end":4148.14,"text":"我相信各位老師在學校任教的時候"},{"start":4148.14,"end":4151.14,"text":"應該也常常遇到學生會用聖誕市AI輔助他們"},{"start":4151.14,"end":4153.14,"text":"來完成各項的作業"},{"start":4153.14,"end":4155.14,"text":"所以今天我覺得聖誕市AI"},{"start":4155.14,"end":4157.14,"text":"固然有它方便跟便利的地方"},{"start":4157.14,"end":4159.14,"text":"但依然有相當多的挑戰"},{"start":4159.14,"end":4161.14,"text":"第一個挑戰主要在數位主權"},{"start":4161.14,"end":4163.14,"text":"所謂的數位主權就是"},{"start":4163.14,"end":4165.14,"text":"聖誕市AI它在產出相關內容的時候"},{"start":4165.14,"end":4167.14,"text":"它的根據到底是什麼"},{"start":4167.14,"end":4169.14,"text":"大家都知道我們現在在問AI問題"},{"start":4169.14,"end":4174.14,"text":"如果說請你生成一個台灣傳統的街道形象"},{"start":4174.14,"end":4177.14,"text":"它常常用的圖可能是來自於中國大陸的"},{"start":4177.14,"end":4179.14,"text":"或者是其他地方傳統的建築"},{"start":4179.14,"end":4181.14,"text":"而不是我們台灣本地的"},{"start":4181.14,"end":4183.14,"text":"當然你談到其他政治性的議題"},{"start":4183.14,"end":4185.14,"text":"或談到其他更知識性的議題的時候"},{"start":4185.14,"end":4187.14,"text":"也常常會面臨這樣的挑戰"},{"start":4187.14,"end":4189.14,"text":"所以說我們到底要怎麼樣"},{"start":4189.52,"end":4191.52,"text":"在確保AI可以發展的很順利的同時"},{"start":4191.52,"end":4193.52,"text":"同時也要去兼顧我們AI"},{"start":4193.52,"end":4195.52,"text":"背後的數位主權的議題"},{"start":4195.52,"end":4197.52,"text":"這個可能是我們要思考的"},{"start":4197.52,"end":4199.52,"text":"第二個就是在AI使用的過程當中"},{"start":4199.52,"end":4201.52,"text":"到底相關的機關"},{"start":4201.52,"end":4203.52,"text":"有沒有辦法對於相關的AI的開發商"},{"start":4203.52,"end":4205.52,"text":"他們去要求說"},{"start":4205.52,"end":4207.52,"text":"我們要確保使用者能夠去控制AI"},{"start":4207.52,"end":4209.52,"text":"就控制AI後面的一些"},{"start":4209.52,"end":4211.52,"text":"相關的設定跟機能"},{"start":4211.52,"end":4213.52,"text":"不會完全被AI操控"},{"start":4213.52,"end":4215.52,"text":"第三就是相關的機關"},{"start":4215.52,"end":4217.52,"text":"在處理AI產出相關的內容的時候"},{"start":4217.52,"end":4219.52,"text":"像剛剛也有說有提到"},{"start":4219.52,"end":4221.52,"text":"就是說有的時候AI可能會產出一些"},{"start":4221.52,"end":4223.52,"text":"深違的這個影片"},{"start":4223.52,"end":4225.52,"text":"或者是虛假的內容"},{"start":4225.52,"end":4227.52,"text":"那NCC這個角度上到底要怎麼樣"},{"start":4227.52,"end":4229.52,"text":"來做一個監管 這可能是NCC"},{"start":4229.52,"end":4231.52,"text":"各位被提名所需要思考的問題"},{"start":4231.52,"end":4233.52,"text":"那再來在AI的問題裡面"},{"start":4233.52,"end":4235.52,"text":"當然它是一個"},{"start":4235.52,"end":4237.52,"text":"發展很快速的科技"},{"start":4237.52,"end":4239.52,"text":"所以很多時候我們的法規在修正的時候"},{"start":4239.52,"end":4241.52,"text":"可能趕不上它發展的速度"},{"start":4241.52,"end":4243.52,"text":"所以我們到底要怎麼樣在這個過程當中"},{"start":4243.52,"end":4245.52,"text":"先制定一個比較全面性的"},{"start":4245.52,"end":4247.52,"text":"所謂的以指引代替法規"},{"start":4247.52,"end":4249.52,"text":"或指引先行的方式"},{"start":4249.52,"end":4251.52,"text":"來處理相關AI監管的問題"},{"start":4251.52,"end":4253.52,"text":"這可能也是我們被提名的人必須去思考的問題"},{"start":4253.52,"end":4255.52,"text":"所以這個是歐盟"},{"start":4255.52,"end":4257.52,"text":"他們其實最近都有在針對相關的AI主權"},{"start":4257.52,"end":4259.52,"text":"AI數位主權"},{"start":4259.52,"end":4261.52,"text":"或者是AI相關科技發展的時候"},{"start":4261.52,"end":4263.52,"text":"提出很多的研究報告"},{"start":4263.52,"end":4265.52,"text":"那這些研究報告"},{"start":4265.52,"end":4267.52,"text":"當然有的比較新有的比較舊"},{"start":4267.52,"end":4269.52,"text":"那歐盟他們其實在這幾年來"},{"start":4269.52,"end":4271.52,"text":"針對AI的問題其實有做了非常非常多的研究"},{"start":4271.52,"end":4273.52,"text":"所以我也建議"},{"start":4273.52,"end":4275.52,"text":"在台灣在制定相關法規的時候"},{"start":4275.52,"end":4277.52,"text":"或許也可以參照其他國家的經驗"},{"start":4277.52,"end":4279.52,"text":"他三之十可以攻錯"},{"start":4281.03,"end":4285.03,"text":"那如果我們剛剛提到很多所謂的AI的挑戰或爭議好了"},{"start":4285.03,"end":4287.03,"text":"那到底有哪一些方式呢"},{"start":4287.03,"end":4289.03,"text":"可以做進一步的一個處理呢"},{"start":4289.03,"end":4291.03,"text":"第一個我覺得蠻重要的東西叫做"},{"start":4291.03,"end":4293.03,"text":"AI監理沙盒啦"},{"start":4293.03,"end":4295.03,"text":"其實AI監理沙盒的概念就是說"},{"start":4295.03,"end":4297.03,"text":"我們就有點仿造這個在金融領域啦"},{"start":4297.03,"end":4299.03,"text":"就是說我們在特定的條件跟狀況下"},{"start":4299.03,"end":4301.03,"text":"給予相關的AI開發商"},{"start":4301.03,"end":4303.03,"text":"一些法規上的鬆綁"},{"start":4303.03,"end":4305.03,"text":"短期的法規鬆綁"},{"start":4305.03,"end":4307.03,"text":"然後讓他們去測試說"},{"start":4307.03,"end":4309.03,"text":"新的AI的科技或新的AI的應用的時候"},{"start":4309.03,"end":4311.03,"text":"他到底會產生什麼樣的議題"},{"start":4311.03,"end":4313.03,"text":"也可能帶來什麼樣的效應"},{"start":4313.03,"end":4315.03,"text":"那在這個監理的過程當中"},{"start":4315.03,"end":4317.03,"text":"在這個沙盒的過程當中呢"},{"start":4317.03,"end":4319.03,"text":"主管機關也可以在這個裡面"},{"start":4319.03,"end":4321.03,"text":"根據他相關實驗的內容去調整相關的法規"},{"start":4321.03,"end":4323.03,"text":"或者是制定相關的政策"},{"start":4323.03,"end":4325.03,"text":"所以AI監理沙盒或許是"},{"start":4325.03,"end":4327.03,"text":"處理所謂的生成式AI挑戰的一個可能的解方"},{"start":4327.03,"end":4329.03,"text":"那第二個就是"},{"start":4329.03,"end":4331.03,"text":"大家也知道這個生成式AI可以運用到非常非常多的領域"},{"start":4331.03,"end":4333.03,"text":"你可以用到所謂的醫療科技裡面"},{"start":4333.03,"end":4335.03,"text":"他可能可以協助醫生去"},{"start":4335.03,"end":4337.03,"text":"判讀相關的病例"},{"start":4337.03,"end":4339.03,"text":"的影片或圖片"},{"start":4339.03,"end":4341.03,"text":"他用在傳播領域他可能有其他的作用"},{"start":4341.03,"end":4343.03,"text":"那用在教育領域他可能也有相關的一些應用"},{"start":4343.03,"end":4345.03,"text":"所以我們在處理所謂生成式AI問題的時候"},{"start":4345.03,"end":4347.03,"text":"是不是應該考量說"},{"start":4347.03,"end":4349.03,"text":"針對不同的領域呢"},{"start":4349.03,"end":4351.03,"text":"來制定不一樣的管制政策"},{"start":4351.03,"end":4353.03,"text":"就避免所謂的一刀切"},{"start":4353.03,"end":4355.03,"text":"反而去抑制某些領域的發展"},{"start":4355.03,"end":4357.03,"text":"這可能是我們在做所謂的這個"},{"start":4357.03,"end":4359.03,"text":"領域導向管制必須去思考的問題"},{"start":4359.03,"end":4361.03,"text":"那再來呢就是在所謂的數位平權"},{"start":4361.03,"end":4363.03,"text":"那大家都知道呢"},{"start":4363.03,"end":4365.03,"text":"在使用AI或使用的相關數位科技上面"},{"start":4365.03,"end":4367.03,"text":"常常都有所謂的數位落差的問題"},{"start":4367.03,"end":4369.03,"text":"也就是說呢"},{"start":4369.03,"end":4371.03,"text":"如果以年齡來講"},{"start":4371.03,"end":4373.03,"text":"年輕世代應用AI的科技"},{"start":4373.03,"end":4375.03,"text":"當然非常的順利順手"},{"start":4375.03,"end":4377.03,"text":"但如果對於長輩來講那或許就是一個挑戰"},{"start":4377.03,"end":4379.03,"text":"那對於都市的人來講"},{"start":4379.03,"end":4381.03,"text":"用這些相關的科技可能非常的方便迅速"},{"start":4381.03,"end":4383.03,"text":"但對於在所謂的偏鄉地區的"},{"start":4383.03,"end":4385.03,"text":"民眾在使用的時候他可能就會遇到"},{"start":4385.03,"end":4387.03,"text":"所謂網路速度或是基礎建設"},{"start":4387.03,"end":4389.03,"text":"不夠的問題"},{"start":4389.03,"end":4391.03,"text":"所以這個數位平權的問題到底要怎麼樣在所謂的"},{"start":4391.03,"end":4393.03,"text":"生成式AI的時代裡面去做"},{"start":4393.03,"end":4395.03,"text":"進一步的調整"},{"start":4395.03,"end":4397.03,"text":"再來呢就是這個生成式AI在開發"},{"start":4397.03,"end":4399.03,"text":"或相關的科技"},{"start":4399.03,"end":4401.03,"text":"治理的過程當中是不是"},{"start":4401.03,"end":4403.03,"text":"有能夠做到所謂的多元參與的狀況"},{"start":4403.03,"end":4405.03,"text":"例如說我們現在在所謂的"},{"start":4405.03,"end":4407.03,"text":"生成式AI裡面你常常會看到"},{"start":4407.03,"end":4409.03,"text":"你如果詢問他有關於"},{"start":4409.03,"end":4411.03,"text":"原住民的問題他可能回答就"},{"start":4411.03,"end":4413.03,"text":"不是那麼精確或甚至他有些"},{"start":4413.03,"end":4415.03,"text":"內容可能會有一些"},{"start":4415.03,"end":4417.03,"text":"帶有一些刻板印象或者是種族歧視"},{"start":4417.03,"end":4419.03,"text":"的問題那這個東西呢如果你不是"},{"start":4419.03,"end":4421.03,"text":"那個族群的人你可能"},{"start":4421.03,"end":4423.03,"text":"很難去針對這個問題來提出解方"},{"start":4423.03,"end":4425.03,"text":"所以我們在所謂制定AI"},{"start":4425.03,"end":4427.03,"text":"相關政策或者是AI在發展的過程"},{"start":4427.03,"end":4429.03,"text":"當中是不是有機會能夠"},{"start":4429.03,"end":4431.03,"text":"邀請多方的利害關係人"},{"start":4431.03,"end":4433.03,"text":"來參與相關政策制定的過程"},{"start":4433.03,"end":4435.03,"text":"或甚至是系統開發的過程"},{"start":4435.03,"end":4437.03,"text":"或許也是一個可以處理的方式"},{"start":4437.03,"end":4439.03,"text":"那最後呢也再跟各位"},{"start":4439.03,"end":4441.03,"text":"報告一下目前呢其實全世界"},{"start":4441.03,"end":4443.03,"text":"在提所謂的AI監理沙盒"},{"start":4443.03,"end":4445.03,"text":"目前是有66個AI"},{"start":4445.03,"end":4447.03,"text":"的沙盒了截到2024"},{"start":4447.03,"end":4449.03,"text":"年為止那所以現在其實可能"},{"start":4449.03,"end":4451.03,"text":"會更多那有的可能是國家領導的"},{"start":4451.03,"end":4453.03,"text":"那有些可能是AI的這種開發商"},{"start":4453.03,"end":4455.03,"text":"或者是AI創新的廠商"},{"start":4455.03,"end":4457.03,"text":"所引導的那所以這個監理沙盒"},{"start":4457.03,"end":4459.03,"text":"或許是可以當成是我們未來"},{"start":4459.03,"end":4461.03,"text":"來處理相關生存式AI"},{"start":4461.03,"end":4463.03,"text":"挑戰的一個問題好那以上就是我對"},{"start":4463.03,"end":4465.03,"text":"這次公聽會的報告謝謝大家"},{"start":4467.32,"end":4469.32,"text":"好我們謝謝王老師"},{"start":4471.01,"end":4473.01,"text":"好接下來我們再邀請"},{"start":4473.01,"end":4475.01,"text":"世新大學廣播電視電影學系"},{"start":4475.01,"end":4477.01,"text":"林承宇教授"},{"start":4481.83,"end":4482.33,"text":"喂"},{"start":4483.74,"end":4486.74,"text":"主席還有各位與會的來賓大家早安"},{"start":4486.74,"end":4488.74,"text":"我想這已經不是"},{"start":4488.74,"end":4490.74,"text":"第一次的公聽會了在"},{"start":4490.74,"end":4492.74,"text":"過去呢我們立法院"},{"start":4492.74,"end":4494.74,"text":"也曾經尤其教授委員辦過"},{"start":4494.74,"end":4496.74,"text":"很多類似的"},{"start":4496.74,"end":4498.74,"text":"這樣的一個公聽會尤其在NCC"},{"start":4498.74,"end":4500.74,"text":"的主委跟副主委還有委員審查"},{"start":4500.74,"end":4502.74,"text":"的這個議題那也可以了解到"},{"start":4502.74,"end":4504.74,"text":"目前台灣"},{"start":4504.74,"end":4506.74,"text":"的NCC的這個現況"},{"start":4506.74,"end":4508.74,"text":"就是懸缺"},{"start":4508.74,"end":4510.74,"text":"就是所謂的空窗期"},{"start":4510.74,"end":4512.74,"text":"那我必須要講到說"},{"start":4512.74,"end":4514.74,"text":"過去對於這個NCC委員"},{"start":4514.74,"end":4516.74,"text":"的產生我想各界"},{"start":4516.74,"end":4518.74,"text":"都有非常多的期許"},{"start":4518.74,"end":4520.74,"text":"有非常多的這種意見"},{"start":4520.74,"end":4522.74,"text":"可是我必須要講一件事情就是說"},{"start":4522.74,"end":4524.74,"text":"當我們對NCC委員"},{"start":4524.74,"end":4526.74,"text":"不管是主委副主委到一般的委員"},{"start":4526.74,"end":4528.74,"text":"有很多的期待的時候"},{"start":4528.74,"end":4530.74,"text":"現在的狀況就是"},{"start":4530.74,"end":4532.74,"text":"零位委員那這樣子對國家"},{"start":4532.74,"end":4534.74,"text":"是不是很好的事情這是我第一個"},{"start":4534.74,"end":4536.74,"text":"要提出來的問題也就是說"},{"start":4536.74,"end":4538.74,"text":"過去呢大法官"},{"start":4538.74,"end":4540.74,"text":"也曾經做出了613的解釋"},{"start":4540.74,"end":4542.74,"text":"對於委員的產生"},{"start":4542.74,"end":4544.74,"text":"是不是要採取政黨比例"},{"start":4544.74,"end":4546.74,"text":"或者是有不同的背景"},{"start":4546.74,"end":4548.74,"text":"這樣的一個協商"},{"start":4548.74,"end":4550.74,"text":"來達到這個比例的"},{"start":4550.74,"end":4552.74,"text":"這個公平"},{"start":4552.74,"end":4554.74,"text":"我想我們是憲政"},{"start":4554.74,"end":4556.74,"text":"體制的國家還是要遵守"},{"start":4556.74,"end":4558.74,"text":"大法官的解釋"},{"start":4558.74,"end":4560.74,"text":"那現在我要講的就是說"},{"start":4560.74,"end":4562.74,"text":"我們的委員現在也是全球的狀況"},{"start":4564.18,"end":4566.18,"text":"我們對委員有再多的期待"},{"start":4566.18,"end":4568.18,"text":"其實是沒有用的"},{"start":4568.18,"end":4570.18,"text":"因為當我們去"},{"start":4570.18,"end":4572.18,"text":"認為說這些委員應該要"},{"start":4572.18,"end":4574.18,"text":"做到完整的這種狀況"},{"start":4574.18,"end":4576.18,"text":"其實委員的產生"},{"start":4576.18,"end":4578.18,"text":"我認為很重要兩個特質"},{"start":4578.18,"end":4580.18,"text":"是第一個他要能夠解決"},{"start":4580.18,"end":4582.18,"text":"問題第二個他是善於"},{"start":4582.18,"end":4584.18,"text":"溝通的可以讓很多不同"},{"start":4584.18,"end":4586.18,"text":"意見能夠達到一個最大"},{"start":4586.18,"end":4588.18,"text":"供應數的這個理解"},{"start":4588.18,"end":4590.18,"text":"你說我們現在"},{"start":4590.18,"end":4592.18,"text":"對於很多委員對於主委"},{"start":4592.18,"end":4594.18,"text":"副主委或者是委員的產生"},{"start":4594.18,"end":4596.18,"text":"我們希望他能夠有達到"},{"start":4596.18,"end":4598.18,"text":"很多的這個希望"},{"start":4598.18,"end":4600.18,"text":"他能夠公正能夠獨立機關"},{"start":4600.18,"end":4602.18,"text":"的行使能夠達到一個"},{"start":4602.18,"end":4604.18,"text":"非常可以說服大家的"},{"start":4604.18,"end":4606.18,"text":"狀況可是事實上"},{"start":4606.18,"end":4608.18,"text":"人的不可控性"},{"start":4608.18,"end":4610.18,"text":"是沒有辦法在"},{"start":4610.18,"end":4612.18,"text":"這一堆資料或者說"},{"start":4612.18,"end":4614.18,"text":"從這樣的一個表面"},{"start":4614.18,"end":4616.18,"text":"表面的內容"},{"start":4616.18,"end":4618.18,"text":"的這個資料"},{"start":4618.18,"end":4620.18,"text":"裡面去了解到這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":4620.18,"end":4622.18,"text":"的我們可以想得到現在"},{"start":4622.18,"end":4624.18,"text":"很多立委當時"},{"start":4624.18,"end":4626.18,"text":"在成為立委的時候我們不知道"},{"start":4626.18,"end":4628.18,"text":"原來他這麼紅是嗎"},{"start":4628.18,"end":4630.18,"text":"所以我講的意思就是說"},{"start":4630.18,"end":4632.18,"text":"如果我們沒有辦法"},{"start":4632.18,"end":4634.18,"text":"在這一屆又選出"},{"start":4634.18,"end":4636.18,"text":"可以運作的NCC"},{"start":4636.18,"end":4638.18,"text":"其實我們講再多"},{"start":4638.18,"end":4640.18,"text":"其實都沒有用的"},{"start":4640.18,"end":4642.18,"text":"就像第一位"},{"start":4642.18,"end":4644.18,"text":"發言者專家"},{"start":4644.18,"end":4646.18,"text":"這個洪老師有講到"},{"start":4646.18,"end":4648.18,"text":"立法院可以審查"},{"start":4648.18,"end":4650.18,"text":"可以審查我們的委員可是"},{"start":4650.18,"end":4652.18,"text":"真的不能讓他一直"},{"start":4652.18,"end":4654.18,"text":"控轉下去"},{"start":4654.18,"end":4656.18,"text":"會怎麼樣呢我跟各位報告一件事情"},{"start":4656.18,"end":4658.18,"text":"我們的這個"},{"start":4658.18,"end":4660.18,"text":"從8月1號已經開始"},{"start":4660.18,"end":4662.18,"text":"懸缺了那在過去"},{"start":4662.18,"end":4664.18,"text":"113年民國113年到"},{"start":4664.18,"end":4666.18,"text":"115年這一年8個月的時間"},{"start":4666.18,"end":4668.18,"text":"我們需要"},{"start":4668.18,"end":4670.18,"text":"送到委員會的這個"},{"start":4670.18,"end":4672.18,"text":"案件有700多件"},{"start":4672.18,"end":4674.18,"text":"沒有辦法審查"},{"start":4674.18,"end":4676.18,"text":"這700多件包含了什麼呢"},{"start":4676.18,"end":4678.18,"text":"包括了節目的內容包含了頻道"},{"start":4678.18,"end":4680.18,"text":"這個新聞頻道的這個"},{"start":4680.18,"end":4682.18,"text":"這個權力移轉的問題"},{"start":4682.18,"end":4684.18,"text":"還有股權經紀人董事"},{"start":4684.18,"end":4686.18,"text":"以及營運計畫等等"},{"start":4686.18,"end":4688.18,"text":"這些其實跟我們民生的"},{"start":4688.18,"end":4690.18,"text":"相關性有非常大的"},{"start":4690.18,"end":4692.18,"text":"關聯性而且各位知道嗎"},{"start":4692.18,"end":4694.18,"text":"我們在這個"},{"start":4694.18,"end":4696.18,"text":"社評的設備的這個"},{"start":4696.18,"end":4698.18,"text":"這個審核的這個"},{"start":4698.18,"end":4700.18,"text":"案件裡面呢其實已經"},{"start":4700.18,"end":4702.18,"text":"累積到一定的程度這個累積"},{"start":4702.18,"end":4704.18,"text":"到一定的程度包含了我們的"},{"start":4704.18,"end":4706.18,"text":"電啊甚至我們平常"},{"start":4706.18,"end":4708.18,"text":"在用的藍牙設備呢"},{"start":4708.18,"end":4710.18,"text":"這些基本上都已經"},{"start":4710.18,"end":4712.18,"text":"達到一個停擺的狀況"},{"start":4712.18,"end":4714.18,"text":"這些都是新聞已經在"},{"start":4714.18,"end":4716.18,"text":"上個禮拜都已經有報導了"},{"start":4716.18,"end":4718.18,"text":"換句話說我第一個提出來的這個"},{"start":4718.18,"end":4720.18,"text":"在藉由這個公聽會要講的就是"},{"start":4720.18,"end":4722.18,"text":"NCC如果"},{"start":4722.18,"end":4724.18,"text":"一直懸缺沒有辦法運作"},{"start":4724.18,"end":4726.18,"text":"的狀況對台灣是不是現在很好的"},{"start":4726.18,"end":4728.18,"text":"事情我知道我知道大家都"},{"start":4728.18,"end":4730.18,"text":"很希望找出"},{"start":4730.18,"end":4732.18,"text":"真的能夠像玩人一樣"},{"start":4732.18,"end":4734.18,"text":"能夠獨立客觀的人來"},{"start":4734.18,"end":4736.18,"text":"這個擔任委員"},{"start":4736.18,"end":4738.18,"text":"可是事實上停擺"},{"start":4738.18,"end":4740.18,"text":"比我們期待的這件事情"},{"start":4740.18,"end":4742.18,"text":"更可怕這是第一個"},{"start":4742.18,"end":4744.18,"text":"要件第二個呢"},{"start":4744.18,"end":4746.18,"text":"我要談到就是所謂的內容有"},{"start":4746.18,"end":4748.18,"text":"這樣分論的這個問題"},{"start":4748.18,"end":4750.18,"text":"其實NCC的這個"},{"start":4750.18,"end":4752.18,"text":"組成過去這個議題也都被提到"},{"start":4752.18,"end":4754.18,"text":"尤其在台灣的這個"},{"start":4754.18,"end":4756.18,"text":"目前媒體環境"},{"start":4756.18,"end":4758.18,"text":"的這一個生態裡面"},{"start":4758.18,"end":4760.18,"text":"有件事情真的非常重要尤其"},{"start":4760.18,"end":4762.18,"text":"我參與了這個NGO"},{"start":4762.18,"end":4764.18,"text":"參與蠻久的就是所謂的衛星公會"},{"start":4764.18,"end":4766.18,"text":"那衛星公會呢最主要"},{"start":4766.18,"end":4768.18,"text":"的這個"},{"start":4768.18,"end":4770.18,"text":"這個內容有一個"},{"start":4770.18,"end":4772.18,"text":"非常重要的產制的這個"},{"start":4772.18,"end":4774.18,"text":"內容就是新聞的產制"},{"start":4774.18,"end":4776.18,"text":"各位知道我不曉得各位平常"},{"start":4776.18,"end":4778.18,"text":"在接觸新聞的管道"},{"start":4778.18,"end":4780.18,"text":"來自於什麼可是就"},{"start":4780.18,"end":4782.18,"text":"我所知目前台灣很多"},{"start":4782.18,"end":4784.18,"text":"的新聞的這個"},{"start":4784.18,"end":4786.18,"text":"內容都來自於"},{"start":4786.18,"end":4788.18,"text":"有線電視或者是有這個"},{"start":4788.18,"end":4790.18,"text":"編制的記者的"},{"start":4790.18,"end":4792.18,"text":"這樣的一個新聞台"},{"start":4792.18,"end":4794.18,"text":"那其實他們產出的新聞呢"},{"start":4794.18,"end":4796.18,"text":"是無償的被"},{"start":4796.18,"end":4798.18,"text":"這些所謂的"},{"start":4798.18,"end":4800.18,"text":"這個網路平台"},{"start":4800.18,"end":4802.18,"text":"使用尤其像Google"},{"start":4802.18,"end":4804.18,"text":"Meta等等那過去"},{"start":4804.18,"end":4806.18,"text":"我們在這個"},{"start":4806.18,"end":4808.18,"text":"這個議題上也曾經"},{"start":4808.18,"end":4810.18,"text":"有不管是不同"},{"start":4810.18,"end":4812.18,"text":"的政黨的黨團或者是在我們的"},{"start":4812.18,"end":4814.18,"text":"這個會議上都有提到"},{"start":4814.18,"end":4816.18,"text":"這個所謂的這個"},{"start":4817.27,"end":4819.27,"text":"新聞有價的這個"},{"start":4819.27,"end":4821.27,"text":"分潤的這個制度"},{"start":4821.27,"end":4823.27,"text":"可是現在這個制度呢我想NCC"},{"start":4823.27,"end":4825.27,"text":"當時的立場是說我們"},{"start":4825.27,"end":4827.27,"text":"贊成有分潤制度可是"},{"start":4827.27,"end":4829.27,"text":"另外一個主管的"},{"start":4829.27,"end":4831.27,"text":"機關數位發展"},{"start":4831.27,"end":4833.27,"text":"部就數發部呢他們一直"},{"start":4833.27,"end":4835.27,"text":"遲遲沒有這方面的這個內容"},{"start":4835.27,"end":4837.27,"text":"所以其實NCC選出來的"},{"start":4837.27,"end":4839.27,"text":"委員或是選出來的委員會"},{"start":4839.27,"end":4841.27,"text":"必須要有一個能力就是"},{"start":4841.27,"end":4843.27,"text":"我剛剛講到的溝通的能力"},{"start":4843.27,"end":4845.27,"text":"其實我們不是要選出完人"},{"start":4845.27,"end":4847.27,"text":"而是選出會解決問題"},{"start":4847.27,"end":4849.27,"text":"選出會溝通的這個委員"},{"start":4849.27,"end":4851.27,"text":"是非常重要的尤其跟數位"},{"start":4851.27,"end":4853.27,"text":"發展部的溝通這件事情"},{"start":4853.27,"end":4855.27,"text":"是非常重要的一件事也是"},{"start":4855.27,"end":4857.27,"text":"我藉由這個工廳會的一個期許"},{"start":4857.27,"end":4859.27,"text":"以上謝謝"},{"start":4860.27,"end":4862.27,"text":"好非常謝謝林老師"},{"start":4862.85,"end":4864.85,"text":"接下來我們邀請中國文化大學"},{"start":4864.85,"end":4866.85,"text":"新聞學系莊博仲教授"},{"start":4872.11,"end":4874.11,"text":"主席與會的重要學者"},{"start":4874.11,"end":4876.11,"text":"還有各位在場的媒體朋友"},{"start":4876.11,"end":4878.11,"text":"時間有限我就不客套"},{"start":4879.18,"end":4879.68,"text":"呃"},{"start":4880.5,"end":4882.5,"text":"縱觀這七位"},{"start":4882.5,"end":4884.5,"text":"NCC委員TV人"},{"start":4884.5,"end":4886.5,"text":"從他的學經歷跟主要來看"},{"start":4886.5,"end":4888.5,"text":"基本上應該都是"},{"start":4888.5,"end":4890.5,"text":"夠格我沒有疑問"},{"start":4890.5,"end":4892.5,"text":"但是呢夠格只是最低門檻"},{"start":4892.5,"end":4894.5,"text":"因為今天在場參與的"},{"start":4894.5,"end":4896.5,"text":"專家學者十幾位裡面"},{"start":4896.5,"end":4898.5,"text":"除了我之外每個"},{"start":4898.5,"end":4900.5,"text":"也都是夠格的而且"},{"start":4900.5,"end":4902.5,"text":"多數還在這個門檻之上"},{"start":4902.5,"end":4904.5,"text":"可見的學經歷夠格"},{"start":4904.5,"end":4906.5,"text":"只是最低要求"},{"start":4906.5,"end":4908.5,"text":"能不能扮演好這個角色"},{"start":4908.5,"end":4910.5,"text":"才是我們要關切的"},{"start":4910.5,"end":4912.5,"text":"那這邊我準備兩個問題"},{"start":4912.5,"end":4914.5,"text":"各位可以再看到這個投影幕上"},{"start":4915.36,"end":4917.36,"text":"大宅問要來救教啊"},{"start":4918.18,"end":4920.18,"text":"七位提名人"},{"start":4920.18,"end":4922.18,"text":"當然也希望代表民意"},{"start":4922.18,"end":4924.18,"text":"行使職權的"},{"start":4924.18,"end":4926.18,"text":"立法委員們能夠藉此"},{"start":4926.18,"end":4928.18,"text":"能夠替我追問他們"},{"start":4928.18,"end":4930.18,"text":"那第一個問題就是說"},{"start":4930.18,"end":4932.18,"text":"NCC的形象崩壞"},{"start":4932.18,"end":4934.18,"text":"獨立性蕩然無存"},{"start":4934.18,"end":4936.18,"text":"那何以至此"},{"start":4936.18,"end":4938.18,"text":"如何解決"},{"start":4937.79,"end":4939.79,"text":"我希望這七位提名人都能夠具體的回答"},{"start":4939.79,"end":4941.79,"text":"自由對決"},{"start":4941.79,"end":4943.79,"text":"不要遮掩"},{"start":4943.26,"end":4945.26,"text":"我特別花時間整理了"},{"start":4945.26,"end":4947.26,"text":"近年來"},{"start":4946.23,"end":4948.23,"text":"關於NCC的民調"},{"start":4949.6,"end":4951.6,"text":"從2019年到2022年"},{"start":4951.6,"end":4953.6,"text":"總共有找到了六個民調"},{"start":4953.6,"end":4955.6,"text":"那剛好裡面有三個"},{"start":4955.6,"end":4957.6,"text":"是針對NCC它本身的"},{"start":4957.6,"end":4959.6,"text":"獨立性的"},{"start":4959.6,"end":4961.6,"text":"也就是說這個單位的公信力"},{"start":4961.6,"end":4963.6,"text":"是不是公正超然"},{"start":4963.6,"end":4965.6,"text":"那在2019年4月"},{"start":4965.6,"end":4967.6,"text":"台灣優勢做的民調是"},{"start":4967.6,"end":4969.6,"text":"有58.5%的民眾"},{"start":4969.6,"end":4971.6,"text":"認為這個"},{"start":4971.42,"end":4973.42,"text":"不具有獨立性"},{"start":4973.08,"end":4975.08,"text":"那到了2020年"},{"start":4975.08,"end":4977.08,"text":"過了一年半之後2020年10月"},{"start":4977.31,"end":4979.31,"text":"民意調查新議會又做了一次"},{"start":4979.39,"end":4981.39,"text":"結果"},{"start":4980.75,"end":4982.75,"text":"有67%啊"},{"start":4984.52,"end":4986.52,"text":"民眾啊"},{"start":4986.52,"end":4988.52,"text":"認為NCC獨立性大有問題"},{"start":4988.45,"end":4990.45,"text":"那又過了一個月"},{"start":4990.45,"end":4992.45,"text":"到2020年10月"},{"start":4993.01,"end":4995.01,"text":"民調的新議會"},{"start":4995.01,"end":4997.01,"text":"又做一個滾動式的調查"},{"start":4997.01,"end":4999.01,"text":"發覺啊"},{"start":4997.8,"end":4999.8,"text":"認為"},{"start":4999.37,"end":5001.37,"text":"NCC獨立性有問題的"},{"start":5001.37,"end":5003.37,"text":"又增加到68.4%"},{"start":5003.37,"end":5005.37,"text":"也就是說一路做下來從"},{"start":5005.37,"end":5007.37,"text":"六成民眾對"},{"start":5007.37,"end":5009.37,"text":"NCC獨立性有質疑"},{"start":5009.37,"end":5011.37,"text":"到了三分之二民眾認為有問題"},{"start":5011.37,"end":5013.37,"text":"到後來的七成認為"},{"start":5013.37,"end":5015.37,"text":"不OK"},{"start":5015.37,"end":5017.37,"text":"那這段期間呢認為NCC"},{"start":5017.37,"end":5019.37,"text":"獨立性有OK的"},{"start":5019.37,"end":5021.37,"text":"符合要求只有大概五分之一"},{"start":5021.37,"end":5023.37,"text":"百分之二十上下而已"},{"start":5023.37,"end":5025.37,"text":"那另外三個民調呢"},{"start":5025.37,"end":5027.37,"text":"是關於NCC在處理特定案件的時候"},{"start":5027.37,"end":5029.37,"text":"有沒有政治力介入"},{"start":5029.37,"end":5031.37,"text":"那在2020年"},{"start":5031.37,"end":5033.37,"text":"當時針對中天"},{"start":5033.37,"end":5035.37,"text":"換照案也是所謂的中天關台案"},{"start":5036.24,"end":5038.24,"text":"TPP做的調查是"},{"start":5038.24,"end":5040.24,"text":"百分之五十三的民眾認為"},{"start":5040.24,"end":5042.24,"text":"有政治力介入"},{"start":5042.3,"end":5044.3,"text":"那同時間"},{"start":5044.3,"end":5046.3,"text":"有美麗島電子報出的民調呢"},{"start":5046.3,"end":5048.3,"text":"在中天換照案呢"},{"start":5048.3,"end":5050.3,"text":"有百分之四十七點八的民眾認為"},{"start":5050.3,"end":5052.3,"text":"是有"},{"start":5051.61,"end":5053.61,"text":"政治力介入"},{"start":5052.96,"end":5054.96,"text":"那又過了三年"},{"start":5054.96,"end":5056.96,"text":"到了剛剛前面中天學者提到的"},{"start":5056.96,"end":5058.96,"text":"靜電事案"},{"start":5058.96,"end":5060.96,"text":"當時TPP做的民調是百分之六十四的民眾"},{"start":5060.96,"end":5062.96,"text":"認為有政治力介入"},{"start":5062.96,"end":5064.96,"text":"那麼其他將近"},{"start":5064.96,"end":5066.96,"text":"一半的民眾是不是認為就沒有政治"},{"start":5066.96,"end":5068.96,"text":"介入呢 錯"},{"start":5068.96,"end":5070.96,"text":"多數民眾是認為不知道"},{"start":5070.96,"end":5072.96,"text":"認為沒有政治介入的只有一成"},{"start":5072.96,"end":5074.96,"text":"我自己門心之問 如果我是NCC委員"},{"start":5074.96,"end":5076.96,"text":"因為這樣被打你的數據"},{"start":5076.96,"end":5078.96,"text":"我會覺得很尷尬 甚至很丟臉"},{"start":5078.96,"end":5080.96,"text":"所以不曉得這個七位"},{"start":5080.96,"end":5082.96,"text":"七位未來的新提名特別主委"},{"start":5082.96,"end":5084.96,"text":"針對這樣的一個形象崩壞"},{"start":5084.96,"end":5086.96,"text":"獨立性蕩然無存"},{"start":5087.49,"end":5089.49,"text":"的現象 何以至此"},{"start":5089.49,"end":5091.49,"text":"如果九月能夠居於回答"},{"start":5091.35,"end":5093.35,"text":"第二個問題呢 則是最近"},{"start":5093.35,"end":5095.35,"text":"沸沸揚揚的是否同意"},{"start":5095.35,"end":5097.35,"text":"行政院"},{"start":5097.26,"end":5099.26,"text":"不附屬有限電視"},{"start":5099.26,"end":5101.26,"text":"有限廣播電視法的內容修正案"},{"start":5101.26,"end":5103.26,"text":"那我們都知道"},{"start":5103.26,"end":5105.26,"text":"行政院在日前"},{"start":5105.26,"end":5107.26,"text":"宣布將不附屬"},{"start":5107.26,"end":5109.26,"text":"有限廣播電視法內容修正案"},{"start":5110.95,"end":5112.95,"text":"理由是啊"},{"start":5112.48,"end":5114.48,"text":"這個涉及到黨政軍條款"},{"start":5114.48,"end":5116.48,"text":"還有裁罰對象"},{"start":5116.55,"end":5118.55,"text":"那 與先前"},{"start":5118.93,"end":5120.93,"text":"不想附屬的衛星廣播電視法"},{"start":5120.93,"end":5122.93,"text":"的修法內容相近"},{"start":5122.93,"end":5124.93,"text":"那行政院給的官方理由是"},{"start":5124.93,"end":5126.93,"text":"為了憲法平等"},{"start":5126.93,"end":5128.93,"text":"還有避免執法爭議"},{"start":5128.93,"end":5130.93,"text":"因此不讓法律公布施行"},{"start":5130.93,"end":5132.93,"text":"那我特別說明一下"},{"start":5132.41,"end":5134.41,"text":"原本啊對於"},{"start":5134.55,"end":5136.55,"text":"黨政軍條款規範是"},{"start":5136.55,"end":5138.55,"text":"零持股 一股也不行"},{"start":5138.55,"end":5140.55,"text":"那現在改成就是說"},{"start":5140.55,"end":5142.55,"text":"政府還有政府捐助成立的"},{"start":5142.55,"end":5144.55,"text":"成立法人可以持有百分之一"},{"start":5144.55,"end":5146.55,"text":"如果沒有實質影響力的話"},{"start":5146.55,"end":5148.55,"text":"那這是非常"},{"start":5148.55,"end":5150.55,"text":"重要一回事哈"},{"start":5150.55,"end":5152.55,"text":"業界全部都表示歡迎"},{"start":5152.55,"end":5154.55,"text":"那當時回到當年啦"},{"start":5154.55,"end":5156.55,"text":"交通部因為持有"},{"start":5156.49,"end":5158.49,"text":"中華電視股份"},{"start":5158.49,"end":5160.49,"text":"那中華電視又持有愛爾達股份"},{"start":5160.49,"end":5162.49,"text":"導致違反這個條款"},{"start":5162.49,"end":5164.49,"text":"在北京奧運啦轉播開播前"},{"start":5164.49,"end":5166.49,"text":"趕快出清 導致於MOD"},{"start":5166.49,"end":5168.49,"text":"只剩下一個單純平台沒有設定內容"},{"start":5168.49,"end":5170.49,"text":"那先前也發生過同樣案例啊"},{"start":5170.56,"end":5172.56,"text":"北富贏啊"},{"start":5172.24,"end":5174.24,"text":"因為持有富邦金控股份"},{"start":5174.24,"end":5176.24,"text":"那富邦金控股份又有台灣大約的股份"},{"start":5176.24,"end":5178.24,"text":"而導致啊"},{"start":5178.24,"end":5180.24,"text":"這個有違法疑慮"},{"start":5180.15,"end":5182.15,"text":"因此呢當年的黨政軍"},{"start":5182.15,"end":5184.15,"text":"退出條款存在空間是"},{"start":5184.15,"end":5186.15,"text":"一來頻道有限"},{"start":5186.15,"end":5188.15,"text":"是稀有財"},{"start":5188.15,"end":5190.15,"text":"二來是明智未開"},{"start":5190.15,"end":5192.15,"text":"但現在數位化時代啊頻道資源已經無限了"},{"start":5192.15,"end":5194.15,"text":"而且明智已開"},{"start":5194.15,"end":5196.15,"text":"有沒有必要"},{"start":5195.86,"end":5197.86,"text":"不鬆綁"},{"start":5198.1,"end":5200.1,"text":"如果不鬆綁的話說不過去"},{"start":5200.1,"end":5202.1,"text":"可是行政院的理由"},{"start":5202.1,"end":5204.1,"text":"讓人家無法接受"},{"start":5204.1,"end":5206.1,"text":"此外這一題是"},{"start":5206.1,"end":5208.1,"text":"在更早前行政院發言"},{"start":5207.96,"end":5209.96,"text":"指出啊當時不附屬"},{"start":5209.96,"end":5211.96,"text":"衛星廣播電視法是因為"},{"start":5212.97,"end":5214.97,"text":"修法內容試圖為特定個案解套"},{"start":5214.97,"end":5216.97,"text":"那表示前後說持矛盾嘛"},{"start":5216.97,"end":5218.97,"text":"因為先前講的是"},{"start":5218.97,"end":5220.97,"text":"試圖為特定個案解套"},{"start":5220.97,"end":5222.97,"text":"那後來說持就是"},{"start":5222.97,"end":5224.97,"text":"為了憲法平等及避免執法爭議"},{"start":5224.97,"end":5226.97,"text":"故不讓法律公布執行"},{"start":5226.97,"end":5228.97,"text":"可見得這個內容反覆"},{"start":5228.97,"end":5230.97,"text":"說持矛盾"},{"start":5230.97,"end":5232.97,"text":"根本與憲法平等還有執法爭議無關"},{"start":5232.97,"end":5234.97,"text":"因此這邊也要請教"},{"start":5234.97,"end":5236.97,"text":"七位新的提名人"},{"start":5236.97,"end":5238.97,"text":"包含主委是不是同意行政院"},{"start":5238.97,"end":5240.97,"text":"不附屬相關的廣電法規"},{"start":5240.97,"end":5242.97,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":5246.6,"end":5248.6,"text":"好非常感謝"},{"start":5248.6,"end":5250.6,"text":"總老師"},{"start":5250.6,"end":5252.6,"text":"接下來我們邀請東吳大學法律系張崑勝"},{"start":5253.4,"end":5255.4,"text":"老師"},{"start":5260.8,"end":5262.8,"text":"主席"},{"start":5262.8,"end":5264.8,"text":"委員跟各位與會先敬大家早安"},{"start":5264.8,"end":5266.8,"text":"大家好"},{"start":5267.19,"end":5269.19,"text":"那其實因為我們來的幾乎都是專業的各個領域"},{"start":5269.19,"end":5271.19,"text":"其實我覺得有"},{"start":5271.19,"end":5273.19,"text":"我覺得立法院有努力過"},{"start":5273.19,"end":5275.19,"text":"就是說針對各個領域"},{"start":5275.19,"end":5277.19,"text":"都有找到包括傳播的"},{"start":5277.19,"end":5279.19,"text":"包括資訊的"},{"start":5279.19,"end":5281.19,"text":"包括電信的各方面的專才"},{"start":5281.19,"end":5283.19,"text":"那我就是代表法律的"},{"start":5283.19,"end":5285.19,"text":"所以我怎麼講都在講法律喔"},{"start":5285.19,"end":5287.19,"text":"要先跟大家講一下"},{"start":5285.74,"end":5287.74,"text":"我一直反對委員制"},{"start":5287.74,"end":5289.74,"text":"因為責任政治會出問題"},{"start":5289.74,"end":5291.74,"text":"簡單說今天我們如果沒有這個"},{"start":5291.74,"end":5293.74,"text":"同意權反正以後有問題都行政院的事"},{"start":5293.74,"end":5295.74,"text":"但是如果今天立法院在"},{"start":5295.74,"end":5297.74,"text":"同意權的行使這麼的"},{"start":5298.06,"end":5300.06,"text":"努力的話"},{"start":5300.06,"end":5302.06,"text":"未來責任政治算立法院的"},{"start":5302.06,"end":5304.06,"text":"還是行政院我們就打了一個問號"},{"start":5304.06,"end":5306.06,"text":"所以其實我認為委員制"},{"start":5306.06,"end":5308.06,"text":"委員會的制度只要涉及政策都不適合"},{"start":5308.06,"end":5310.06,"text":"但是我們今天大部分都在講政策"},{"start":5310.06,"end":5312.06,"text":"也就是說基本上而言"},{"start":5312.06,"end":5314.06,"text":"我認為只是多元"},{"start":5314.06,"end":5316.06,"text":"多元專業的監理跟爭議處理的機構"},{"start":5316.06,"end":5318.06,"text":"適合去做委員制"},{"start":5318.06,"end":5320.06,"text":"就多元意見的"},{"start":5320.06,"end":5322.06,"text":"所以我為什麼在整個過程當中談的"},{"start":5322.06,"end":5324.06,"text":"因為我時間不夠啦"},{"start":5324.06,"end":5326.06,"text":"我不可能把所有內容講"},{"start":5326.06,"end":5328.06,"text":"全部都讀過一次"},{"start":5328.06,"end":5330.06,"text":"我還謝謝Jerome幫我讀了一次"},{"start":5330.06,"end":5332.06,"text":"然後我自己再讀"},{"start":5332.06,"end":5334.06,"text":"因為實在太短時間太短"},{"start":5334.06,"end":5336.06,"text":"那我們還是要講"},{"start":5336.06,"end":5338.06,"text":"613解釋理由書講了什麼東西"},{"start":5338.06,"end":5340.06,"text":"其實我們在承認獨立機關"},{"start":5340.06,"end":5342.06,"text":"之存在它主要目的"},{"start":5342.06,"end":5344.06,"text":"只是在法律規定範圍內"},{"start":5344.06,"end":5346.06,"text":"排除上級機關在層級式行政體制下"},{"start":5346.06,"end":5350.06,"text":"所為對於具體個案決定之指揮或監督"},{"start":5350.06,"end":5354.06,"text":"使獨立機關有更多不受政治干擾"},{"start":5354.06,"end":5356.06,"text":"依專業自主決定之空間"},{"start":5356.06,"end":5358.06,"text":"但是我不得不承認我們今天"},{"start":5358.06,"end":5360.06,"text":"包括幾個與會的先進"},{"start":5360.06,"end":5362.06,"text":"都在問個案"},{"start":5362.06,"end":5364.06,"text":"很抱歉"},{"start":5362.92,"end":5364.92,"text":"如果我是法律委員會說對不起"},{"start":5364.92,"end":5366.92,"text":"因為我不在本案"},{"start":5367.04,"end":5369.04,"text":"我不是合回答中天的問題"},{"start":5369.04,"end":5371.04,"text":"我不知道大家懂我邏輯嗎"},{"start":5371.04,"end":5373.04,"text":"我不在本案嘛"},{"start":5373.04,"end":5375.04,"text":"因為那個案子太久了"},{"start":5375.04,"end":5377.04,"text":"我不在本案我判不到完整的事實"},{"start":5377.04,"end":5379.04,"text":"我也不知道過去做了哪些行為"},{"start":5379.04,"end":5381.04,"text":"然後哪些情形導致因此被側照"},{"start":5381.04,"end":5383.04,"text":"那如果我有更深入的理解"},{"start":5383.04,"end":5385.04,"text":"我會來了解哪些是側照的理由"},{"start":5385.04,"end":5387.04,"text":"哪些不是側照的理由"},{"start":5387.04,"end":5389.04,"text":"不好意思法律委員都這樣"},{"start":5389.04,"end":5391.04,"text":"我教我學生也是這樣講說"},{"start":5391.04,"end":5393.04,"text":"人家問你的問題你還講說對不起"},{"start":5393.04,"end":5395.04,"text":"因為我沒有了解具體的事實"},{"start":5395.04,"end":5397.04,"text":"但是我覺得"},{"start":5397.04,"end":5399.04,"text":"怎麼去擔保繼續維持行政議題"},{"start":5399.04,"end":5401.04,"text":"跟責任政治這是一個"},{"start":5401.04,"end":5403.04,"text":"必須要謹守的"},{"start":5403.04,"end":5405.04,"text":"所以在同意權的行使的時候"},{"start":5405.04,"end":5407.04,"text":"我們現在面臨到問題"},{"start":5407.04,"end":5409.04,"text":"在座的專家我想我現在"},{"start":5409.04,"end":5411.04,"text":"如果提名我當NCC委員我也不願意去"},{"start":5411.04,"end":5413.04,"text":"反正也不會被選上"},{"start":5412.48,"end":5414.48,"text":"最後結果不會同意"},{"start":5414.48,"end":5416.48,"text":"那我覺得一直維持在這種不同意的時候"},{"start":5416.48,"end":5418.48,"text":"我覺得我還是要講一句話"},{"start":5418.48,"end":5420.48,"text":"要請立法院諸公想一下"},{"start":5420.48,"end":5422.48,"text":"第一個是國家人才便宜很不容易"},{"start":5422.48,"end":5424.48,"text":"在座的專家花了多少力氣"},{"start":5424.48,"end":5426.48,"text":"才到今天這麼專業的位置"},{"start":5426.48,"end":5428.48,"text":"結果我被審查的過程當中"},{"start":5432.14,"end":5434.14,"text":"我也不是資格不符"},{"start":5434.14,"end":5436.14,"text":"我今天來講後面你們看我全部都講"},{"start":5436.14,"end":5438.14,"text":"我沒有講任何一個不適任"},{"start":5438.14,"end":5440.14,"text":"然後我也看到在目前"},{"start":5440.14,"end":5442.14,"text":"人才如此難以爭求的狀況之下"},{"start":5442.14,"end":5444.14,"text":"要達到NCC"},{"start":5444.14,"end":5446.14,"text":"也就是說我們要達到"},{"start":5446.14,"end":5448.14,"text":"有線電視"},{"start":5448.14,"end":5450.14,"text":"國家通訊傳播委員會"},{"start":5450.14,"end":5452.14,"text":"組織法第四條的規定有多難"},{"start":5452.14,"end":5454.14,"text":"我們必須要所有人才都在"},{"start":5454.14,"end":5456.14,"text":"所以這個難度其實很難"},{"start":5456.14,"end":5458.14,"text":"所以我希望盡可能是"},{"start":5458.14,"end":5460.14,"text":"針對他的專業去做評鑑"},{"start":5460.14,"end":5462.14,"text":"那至於剛剛有先進問說"},{"start":5462.14,"end":5464.14,"text":"有關於"},{"start":5464.14,"end":5466.14,"text":"因為我也是五黨"},{"start":5466.14,"end":5468.14,"text":"我自始至終這輩子告訴自己我不要任何政黨"},{"start":5468.14,"end":5470.14,"text":"其實講實話我就直接表態"},{"start":5470.14,"end":5472.14,"text":"我是反對任何普發一萬塊的這種行為"},{"start":5472.14,"end":5474.14,"text":"我就先把國債還一還"},{"start":5474.14,"end":5476.14,"text":"不管哪一個政黨我都講同樣的話"},{"start":5476.14,"end":5478.14,"text":"那就代表其實對我"},{"start":5478.14,"end":5480.14,"text":"某一個政策是中立的"},{"start":5480.14,"end":5482.14,"text":"某些政策就是我們典型在談"},{"start":5482.14,"end":5484.14,"text":"中立性的邏輯"},{"start":5484.14,"end":5486.14,"text":"獨立性我覺得都很難"},{"start":5486.14,"end":5488.14,"text":"就像我們說隱性他是哪一個"},{"start":5488.14,"end":5490.14,"text":"那像我的特色很特別是藍的以為是藍的"},{"start":5490.14,"end":5492.14,"text":"綠的以為是綠的民主黨早有去上課"},{"start":5492.14,"end":5494.14,"text":"那其實說穿了我也不知道"},{"start":5494.14,"end":5496.14,"text":"我應該算什麼但是我跟民進黨的朋友"},{"start":5496.14,"end":5498.14,"text":"還蠻好的我對國家主體性"},{"start":5498.14,"end":5500.14,"text":"很在意我講實話所以"},{"start":5500.14,"end":5502.14,"text":"在這邊我要講一些屬性的部分"},{"start":5502.14,"end":5504.14,"text":"很難其實我政策才是說"},{"start":5504.14,"end":5506.14,"text":"我們在與諸一會的專家也幾乎這樣"},{"start":5506.14,"end":5508.14,"text":"我想包括游教授是民人"},{"start":5508.14,"end":5510.14,"text":"我們要講下去"},{"start":5510.14,"end":5512.14,"text":"游教授在某些議題他沒有真的贊成的時候"},{"start":5512.14,"end":5514.14,"text":"他也擺明說我就是不贊成"},{"start":5514.14,"end":5516.14,"text":"我管你藍或綠我覺得這就是我們的"},{"start":5516.14,"end":5518.14,"text":"這個想法是這樣"},{"start":5518.14,"end":5520.14,"text":"那我趕快進入我的審查"},{"start":5520.14,"end":5522.14,"text":"第一個綜合分析來講"},{"start":5521.43,"end":5523.43,"text":"國家通訊團播委員會組織法第四條"},{"start":5523.43,"end":5525.43,"text":"跟第三項的規定"},{"start":5525.43,"end":5533.43,"text":"本會委員應具備電信資訊傳播法律或財經等專業學識或實務經驗"},{"start":5533.43,"end":5537.43,"text":"委員中同意政黨不得超過委員總數二分之一"},{"start":5537.43,"end":5539.43,"text":"這是我們的規定"},{"start":5538.9,"end":5540.9,"text":"那我把這次提名的分析"},{"start":5541.38,"end":5543.38,"text":"元秀慧跟張克豪是法律的"},{"start":5543.38,"end":5545.38,"text":"但是我要講"},{"start":5545.38,"end":5547.38,"text":"我一定要建議的是"},{"start":5546.89,"end":5548.89,"text":"請未來提名一定要有公法的學者在"},{"start":5550.32,"end":5552.32,"text":"或是公法的歷練的"},{"start":5552.32,"end":5555.32,"text":"包括不管你是公法的哪一個領域出生的"},{"start":5555.32,"end":5557.32,"text":"的專業人才都可以"},{"start":5557.32,"end":5559.32,"text":"但是因為NCC涉及到太多行政法的事"},{"start":5559.32,"end":5561.32,"text":"比如說中天策造這是行政法的事"},{"start":5561.32,"end":5563.32,"text":"所以我們必須要有很多行政法的東西在"},{"start":5563.32,"end":5566.32,"text":"所以建議以後一定要有公法的人才在"},{"start":5566.32,"end":5569.32,"text":"那其他部分蕭平、張春言是傳播"},{"start":5569.32,"end":5571.32,"text":"王懿惠是財經跟電信"},{"start":5571.32,"end":5573.32,"text":"尤嘉慕是資訊"},{"start":5573.32,"end":5575.32,"text":"陳春慕是電信"},{"start":5575.32,"end":5577.32,"text":"所以完全切合專業的屬性"},{"start":5577.32,"end":5579.32,"text":"這部分我要肯定一下"},{"start":5579.32,"end":5581.32,"text":"因為我們在談通訊傳播基本法"},{"start":5581.32,"end":5583.32,"text":"其實我們有些東西"},{"start":5583.32,"end":5585.32,"text":"剛剛在講數位的部分"},{"start":5585.32,"end":5587.32,"text":"我們會涉及到全線積極衝突、效率衝突的問題"},{"start":5587.32,"end":5589.32,"text":"也就是說現在是歸數會"},{"start":5589.32,"end":5591.32,"text":"速發不管"},{"start":5591.32,"end":5593.32,"text":"還是各目的、事業主管、機關管"},{"start":5593.32,"end":5595.32,"text":"比如說我們剛剛講申威的事"},{"start":5595.32,"end":5597.32,"text":"那是法務不管的"},{"start":5597.32,"end":5599.32,"text":"所以我們會變成是誰管產生問題"},{"start":5599.32,"end":5601.32,"text":"這個地方其實是必須要去想一下NCC的位置在哪裡"},{"start":5601.32,"end":5603.32,"text":"他管的可能是什麼"},{"start":5603.32,"end":5605.32,"text":"框架的那一塊其他都不管"},{"start":5605.32,"end":5607.32,"text":"那我們去問NCC"},{"start":5607.32,"end":5609.32,"text":"因為為什麼"},{"start":5609.32,"end":5611.32,"text":"對不起我不是目的、事業主管、機關"},{"start":5611.32,"end":5613.32,"text":"你去問一下目的、事業主管"},{"start":5613.32,"end":5615.32,"text":"常常會出現這種問題"},{"start":5615.32,"end":5617.32,"text":"所以以後確實在協調的部分"},{"start":5617.32,"end":5619.32,"text":"我覺得NCC應該做的是"},{"start":5619.32,"end":5621.32,"text":"各目的、事業主管、機關協調的工作"},{"start":5621.32,"end":5623.32,"text":"讓管制可以不漏洞"},{"start":5623.32,"end":5625.32,"text":"那每一個委員的部分"},{"start":5625.32,"end":5627.32,"text":"我時間到了是不是"},{"start":5626.98,"end":5628.98,"text":"OK"},{"start":5628.98,"end":5630.98,"text":"我其實這邊請你們大家看"},{"start":5630.98,"end":5632.98,"text":"因為我有書面簡報我們就回去看"},{"start":5632.98,"end":5634.98,"text":"我講每一個委員他資格的"},{"start":5634.98,"end":5636.98,"text":"我只針對資格看跟他試任"},{"start":5636.98,"end":5638.98,"text":"比如說剛剛在談論說"},{"start":5638.98,"end":5640.98,"text":"有數會他沒有傳播的部分"},{"start":5640.98,"end":5642.98,"text":"他的碩士論文寫的就是說"},{"start":5642.98,"end":5644.98,"text":"從各國通訊傳播管理機關"},{"start":5644.98,"end":5646.98,"text":"抗我國憲政下"},{"start":5646.98,"end":5648.98,"text":"發展從通訊傳播管理機關模式"},{"start":5648.98,"end":5650.98,"text":"其實他是有專業的"},{"start":5650.98,"end":5652.98,"text":"至於有多專業"},{"start":5652.98,"end":5654.98,"text":"其實我必須要講行政法"},{"start":5654.98,"end":5656.98,"text":"我們每一個專業都在學習"},{"start":5656.98,"end":5658.98,"text":"我們認真也是都要靠朋友"},{"start":5658.98,"end":5660.98,"text":"我們講實話這樣"},{"start":5660.98,"end":5662.98,"text":"所以我們都要很謙虛"},{"start":5662.98,"end":5664.98,"text":"因為我們都沒辦法認定事實"},{"start":5664.98,"end":5666.98,"text":"這個地方他只要能夠協調就好"},{"start":5666.98,"end":5668.98,"text":"我認為主委的目的是在協調"},{"start":5668.98,"end":5670.98,"text":"那我這邊把每一個試任"},{"start":5670.98,"end":5672.98,"text":"個別的委員的試任"},{"start":5672.98,"end":5674.98,"text":"跟我對他未來的期許"},{"start":5674.98,"end":5676.98,"text":"因為時間的關係所以我就不再多講"},{"start":5676.98,"end":5678.98,"text":"我只會講到最後面去"},{"start":5678.98,"end":5680.98,"text":"因為個別我每一個都寫過了"},{"start":5680.98,"end":5682.98,"text":"所以我看"},{"start":5679.35,"end":5681.35,"text":"總體的期待這次NCC委員"},{"start":5681.35,"end":5683.35,"text":"大概具備了AI資安"},{"start":5683.35,"end":5685.35,"text":"傳播媒體法律治理電信工程"},{"start":5685.35,"end":5687.35,"text":"四個關鍵領域的"},{"start":5687.35,"end":5689.35,"text":"跨領域的專業而且幾乎都在"},{"start":5689.35,"end":5691.35,"text":"做跨領域我覺得蠻特別的這是一個很棒的"},{"start":5691.35,"end":5693.35,"text":"想法就是說斜槓應該是未來"},{"start":5693.35,"end":5695.35,"text":"多功能的想法"},{"start":5695.35,"end":5697.35,"text":"應該是未來很重要的人才的思維"},{"start":5697.35,"end":5699.35,"text":"那這部分"},{"start":5699.35,"end":5701.35,"text":"成員裡面有學者"},{"start":5701.35,"end":5703.35,"text":"實務甚至常任文官"},{"start":5703.35,"end":5705.35,"text":"我覺得這是一個整合上面"},{"start":5705.35,"end":5707.35,"text":"上下整合是一個相互互補的一個機制"},{"start":5707.35,"end":5709.35,"text":"原則上這個提名的思考"},{"start":5709.35,"end":5711.35,"text":"我覺得我還是要肯定"},{"start":5711.35,"end":5713.35,"text":"這個提名是有想過的"},{"start":5713.35,"end":5715.35,"text":"至於人才是不是最棒的"},{"start":5715.35,"end":5717.35,"text":"這個我覺得很難因為現在"},{"start":5717.35,"end":5719.35,"text":"要最棒的人才一直都有困境"},{"start":5719.35,"end":5721.35,"text":"那事實上的部分互補的部分"},{"start":5721.35,"end":5723.35,"text":"其實我覺得目前做得不錯"},{"start":5723.35,"end":5725.35,"text":"那至於獨立機關"},{"start":5725.35,"end":5727.35,"text":"我還是覺得"},{"start":5726.75,"end":5728.75,"text":"每個人都有強調他要怎麼樣"},{"start":5728.75,"end":5730.75,"text":"他要保障憲法上言論自由新聞自由"},{"start":5730.75,"end":5732.75,"text":"正當法律程序公公利益"},{"start":5732.75,"end":5734.75,"text":"但是我為了具體審查"},{"start":5734.75,"end":5736.75,"text":"我們才知道這些事了所以狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":5736.75,"end":5738.75,"text":"我們不確定"},{"start":5738.75,"end":5740.75,"text":"那當然未來的整體的期許我還是覺得"},{"start":5740.75,"end":5742.75,"text":"AI跟數位助理是一個"},{"start":5742.75,"end":5744.75,"text":"治理是一個很重要的未來"},{"start":5744.75,"end":5746.75,"text":"那必須要想一下哪些是事發布的事"},{"start":5746.75,"end":5748.75,"text":"哪些是那個"},{"start":5748.75,"end":5750.75,"text":"通傳會的事我們應該在"},{"start":5750.75,"end":5752.75,"text":"那個地方做一個很大的釐清"},{"start":5752.75,"end":5754.75,"text":"那數位平台的責任跟新聞"},{"start":5754.75,"end":5756.75,"text":"產業的永續發展"},{"start":5756.75,"end":5758.75,"text":"應該是未來要努力的方向"},{"start":5758.73,"end":5760.73,"text":"那最終就大家都一直在質疑的"},{"start":5760.73,"end":5762.73,"text":"你要重塑獨立機關公信力"},{"start":5762.73,"end":5764.73,"text":"跟社會溝通"},{"start":5764.73,"end":5766.73,"text":"那剛剛有在講什麼叫風險管理"},{"start":5767.18,"end":5769.18,"text":"在多邊關係的時候我們談論的叫風險溝通"},{"start":5769.18,"end":5771.18,"text":"所以政府應該扮演的是風險溝通者"},{"start":5771.18,"end":5773.18,"text":"而不再只是單純的一個監理者"},{"start":5773.18,"end":5775.18,"text":"這是在風險行政一直在談的關係"},{"start":5775.18,"end":5777.18,"text":"那由於時間的關係"},{"start":5777.18,"end":5779.18,"text":"所以我就有空請他"},{"start":5781.1,"end":5783.1,"text":"有空的話就看一下我的書面資料"},{"start":5783.1,"end":5785.1,"text":"那因為時間的關係只有幾分鐘"},{"start":5785.1,"end":5787.1,"text":"所以我今天只能報告到這,謝謝大家"},{"start":5789.08,"end":5791.08,"text":"好,我們非常感謝張老師"},{"start":5792.71,"end":5796.71,"text":"好,接下來我們邀請原汁大學資訊管理學系周應才教授"},{"start":5806.94,"end":5808.94,"text":"主席,各位專家學者"},{"start":5808.94,"end":5810.94,"text":"大家早安"},{"start":5810.94,"end":5812.94,"text":"我想第一個對於參加"},{"start":5812.94,"end":5814.94,"text":"這個未來的公聽"},{"start":5814.94,"end":5816.94,"text":"公聽會做未來的審查的一個"},{"start":5816.94,"end":5818.94,"text":"基礎"},{"start":5818.94,"end":5820.94,"text":"我非常呼應前面所有的專家學者"},{"start":5820.94,"end":5822.94,"text":"以及洪孟凱委員講的"},{"start":5822.94,"end":5824.94,"text":"就是關於昨天的這個"},{"start":5824.94,"end":5826.94,"text":"有限電視法的這個"},{"start":5826.94,"end":5828.94,"text":"不附屬的一個問題"},{"start":5828.94,"end":5830.94,"text":"因為基本上他不只是"},{"start":5830.94,"end":5832.94,"text":"藐視立法院權,其實也藐視了"},{"start":5832.94,"end":5834.94,"text":"獨立機關的行使職權"},{"start":5834.94,"end":5836.94,"text":"那麼這個部分其實"},{"start":5836.94,"end":5838.94,"text":"就行政院的一個理由來說"},{"start":5838.94,"end":5840.94,"text":"他三法的進度不一"},{"start":5840.94,"end":5842.94,"text":"這本來就是常態,而且最重要"},{"start":5842.94,"end":5844.94,"text":"是三法規範的課題"},{"start":5844.94,"end":5846.94,"text":"是不同的,好,規範的課題"},{"start":5846.94,"end":5848.94,"text":"是不同的,所以沒有行政"},{"start":5848.94,"end":5850.94,"text":"艾南執行的一個問題"},{"start":5850.94,"end":5852.94,"text":"所以我認為這個部分"},{"start":5852.94,"end":5854.94,"text":"也希望未來大院"},{"start":5854.94,"end":5856.94,"text":"交通委員會在審查的時候"},{"start":5856.94,"end":5858.94,"text":"我們的委員可以去"},{"start":5858.94,"end":5860.94,"text":"詢問被提名人,關於"},{"start":5860.94,"end":5862.94,"text":"這樣子的,就是"},{"start":5862.94,"end":5864.94,"text":"對於有光法的不附屬"},{"start":5864.94,"end":5866.94,"text":"是否有侵犯到獨立機關"},{"start":5866.94,"end":5868.94,"text":"行使職權的一個可能性"},{"start":5868.94,"end":5870.94,"text":"那麼我同時"},{"start":5870.94,"end":5872.94,"text":"看了很多的"},{"start":5872.94,"end":5874.94,"text":"一個,就是昨天已經把"},{"start":5874.94,"end":5876.94,"text":"所有的文獻資料都看過了"},{"start":5876.94,"end":5878.94,"text":"其實我發覺真的AI"},{"start":5878.94,"end":5880.94,"text":"非常好用,大家幾乎都是"},{"start":5880.94,"end":5882.94,"text":"用AI協力把這個"},{"start":5882.94,"end":5884.94,"text":"就是回答立法院"},{"start":5884.94,"end":5886.94,"text":"給立法院的一個資料"},{"start":5886.94,"end":5888.94,"text":"但是我要特別說明的是"},{"start":5888.94,"end":5890.94,"text":"資料治理不等於"},{"start":5890.94,"end":5892.94,"text":"通訊傳播"},{"start":5892.94,"end":5894.94,"text":"所以基本上在通訊傳播"},{"start":5894.94,"end":5896.94,"text":"來說,它的一個領域"},{"start":5896.94,"end":5898.94,"text":"包括像平埔政策"},{"start":5898.94,"end":5900.94,"text":"包括,那平埔政策裡面"},{"start":5900.94,"end":5902.94,"text":"會有衍生出來的低軌衛星"},{"start":5902.94,"end":5904.94,"text":"包括國際海纜,包括漫遊"},{"start":5904.94,"end":5906.94,"text":"這些部分,你都沒有在"},{"start":5906.94,"end":5908.94,"text":"候選人的這個被提名人的"},{"start":5908.94,"end":5910.94,"text":"資料中看見"},{"start":5910.94,"end":5912.94,"text":"第二個,在傳播方面"},{"start":5912.94,"end":5914.94,"text":"尤其是現在是"},{"start":5914.94,"end":5916.94,"text":"所謂的Globalization"},{"start":5916.94,"end":5918.94,"text":"全球在地化的一個時代"},{"start":5918.94,"end":5920.94,"text":"那麼對於OTT進來"},{"start":5920.94,"end":5922.94,"text":"那麼跟有線電視"},{"start":5922.94,"end":5924.94,"text":"跟MOT的一個"},{"start":5924.94,"end":5926.94,"text":"進合問題,還有"},{"start":5926.94,"end":5928.94,"text":"就是在內容供給上面"},{"start":5928.94,"end":5930.94,"text":"跟數位平台的合理"},{"start":5930.94,"end":5932.94,"text":"包括Google或是Meta"},{"start":5932.94,"end":5934.94,"text":"這些合理的分論問題"},{"start":5934.94,"end":5936.94,"text":"其實也沒有觸及"},{"start":5936.94,"end":5938.94,"text":"所以這個部分顯示了"},{"start":5938.94,"end":5940.94,"text":"各位候選人都是AI有做"},{"start":5940.94,"end":5942.94,"text":"作業,但是AI不能"},{"start":5942.94,"end":5944.94,"text":"幫你真正的回答問題"},{"start":5944.94,"end":5946.94,"text":"就這個部分"},{"start":5946.94,"end":5948.94,"text":"我想,有幾位候選人的一個"},{"start":5948.94,"end":5950.94,"text":"幾位被提名人的一個"},{"start":5951.98,"end":5953.98,"text":"資料顯有瑕疵"},{"start":5953.98,"end":5955.98,"text":"那麼我就做"},{"start":5955.98,"end":5957.98,"text":"那我特別講,我們不是在選擇"},{"start":5957.98,"end":5959.98,"text":"玩人,我們也是最低限度的"},{"start":5959.98,"end":5961.98,"text":"只要他能夠"},{"start":5961.98,"end":5963.98,"text":"符合最低限度的"},{"start":5963.98,"end":5965.98,"text":"成性規範"},{"start":5965.98,"end":5967.98,"text":"能夠重建NCC的一個"},{"start":5967.98,"end":5969.98,"text":"就是信任基礎"},{"start":5969.98,"end":5971.98,"text":"是很重要的"},{"start":5971.98,"end":5973.98,"text":"所以第一個部分,關於"},{"start":5973.98,"end":5975.98,"text":"這個"},{"start":5975.16,"end":5977.16,"text":"委員的主委提名人"},{"start":5977.16,"end":5979.16,"text":"主委被提名人"},{"start":5979.16,"end":5981.16,"text":"其實"},{"start":5981.16,"end":5983.16,"text":"他有兩個很重要的職務"},{"start":5983.16,"end":5985.16,"text":"其實竟然在他的"},{"start":5985.16,"end":5987.16,"text":"主要層面上沒有被揭露"},{"start":5987.16,"end":5989.16,"text":"一個就是擔任不當"},{"start":5989.16,"end":5991.16,"text":"黨產委員會的處理委員會的委員"},{"start":5991.16,"end":5993.16,"text":"另外一個是民進黨"},{"start":5993.16,"end":5995.16,"text":"青年部的副主任"},{"start":5995.16,"end":5997.16,"text":"我相信這兩個都是非常在"},{"start":5997.16,"end":5999.16,"text":"民進黨來說是一個非常"},{"start":5999.16,"end":6001.16,"text":"重要的職位經歷"},{"start":6001.16,"end":6003.16,"text":"竟然沒有揭露,我是覺得非常的訝異"},{"start":6003.16,"end":6005.16,"text":"那麼其次"},{"start":6005.16,"end":6007.16,"text":"在剛剛有講過"},{"start":6007.16,"end":6009.16,"text":"就是有學者講過他的論文"},{"start":6009.16,"end":6011.16,"text":"其實是寫關於就是"},{"start":6011.16,"end":6013.16,"text":"就是獨立機關的"},{"start":6013.16,"end":6015.16,"text":"經營模式,這個也是讓我非常"},{"start":6015.16,"end":6017.16,"text":"訝異的,如果是這樣子的"},{"start":6017.16,"end":6019.16,"text":"一個碩士論文,為什麼在"},{"start":6019.16,"end":6021.16,"text":"所有的一個"},{"start":6021.16,"end":6023.16,"text":"資料呈現中,完全看不出來"},{"start":6023.16,"end":6025.16,"text":"他對通傳議題的"},{"start":6025.16,"end":6027.16,"text":"一個熟念程度,就像我剛剛講的"},{"start":6027.16,"end":6029.16,"text":"這幾個議題,他完全"},{"start":6029.16,"end":6031.16,"text":"沒有處理,那麼也談到"},{"start":6031.16,"end":6033.16,"text":"他在資料中有談到說"},{"start":6033.16,"end":6035.16,"text":"要對平台苛責"},{"start":6035.16,"end":6037.16,"text":"其實有幾位候選人"},{"start":6037.16,"end":6039.16,"text":"請問被提名人都談到"},{"start":6039.16,"end":6041.16,"text":"對平台的苛責"},{"start":6041.16,"end":6043.16,"text":"很多都是說要給他"},{"start":6043.16,"end":6045.16,"text":"甚至CSR等等"},{"start":6045.16,"end":6047.16,"text":"要作為就是協調溝通"},{"start":6047.16,"end":6049.16,"text":"這我是非常奇怪,NCC是請"},{"start":6049.16,"end":6051.16,"text":"大家來喝咖啡的單位嗎"},{"start":6051.16,"end":6053.16,"text":"它不是一個政策法規的"},{"start":6053.16,"end":6055.16,"text":"擬定單位,所以"},{"start":6055.16,"end":6057.16,"text":"難道數位終界法"},{"start":6057.16,"end":6059.16,"text":"不是一個重要的法規依據"},{"start":6059.16,"end":6061.16,"text":"能夠去真正規範這些平台的"},{"start":6061.16,"end":6063.16,"text":"苛責嗎,所以我"},{"start":6063.16,"end":6065.16,"text":"也是非常壓抑"},{"start":6065.16,"end":6067.16,"text":"這些被提名人都沒有提到"},{"start":6067.16,"end":6069.16,"text":"那麼其次在這個"},{"start":6069.16,"end":6071.16,"text":"王懿惠被提名人這邊"},{"start":6071.16,"end":6073.16,"text":"我是難以想像,就是"},{"start":6073.16,"end":6075.16,"text":"他對重大議題的看法,已經擔任"},{"start":6075.16,"end":6077.16,"text":"四年委員的,對重大議題"},{"start":6077.16,"end":6079.16,"text":"的看法第九大"},{"start":6079.16,"end":6081.16,"text":"部分,竟然只有短短的"},{"start":6081.16,"end":6083.16,"text":"兩個,兩段"},{"start":6083.16,"end":6085.16,"text":"文字,那麼對於"},{"start":6085.16,"end":6087.16,"text":"之前一直NCC就是"},{"start":6087.16,"end":6089.16,"text":"委員會無法成立,無法開會"},{"start":6089.16,"end":6091.16,"text":"那麼有這麼多748"},{"start":6091.16,"end":6093.16,"text":"件的這個戒起案"},{"start":6093.16,"end":6095.16,"text":"104件的計畫變更"},{"start":6095.16,"end":6097.16,"text":"都無法審查,他竟然沒有"},{"start":6097.16,"end":6099.16,"text":"提出任何一點"},{"start":6099.16,"end":6101.16,"text":"如何去處理NCC目前"},{"start":6101.16,"end":6103.16,"text":"的這個案"},{"start":6103.16,"end":6105.16,"text":"委員會無法運作之下,如何有效"},{"start":6105.16,"end":6107.16,"text":"解套的一個措施,那麼再來"},{"start":6107.16,"end":6109.16,"text":"就是在剛剛"},{"start":6109.16,"end":6111.16,"text":"溫委員"},{"start":6111.16,"end":6113.16,"text":"這邊有講到,就是"},{"start":6113.16,"end":6115.16,"text":"溫教授這邊"},{"start":6115.16,"end":6117.16,"text":"溫教授這邊有講到,正梅共生"},{"start":6117.16,"end":6119.16,"text":"最有名的案例,靜電室"},{"start":6119.16,"end":6121.16,"text":"那麼王懿惠是當時"},{"start":6121.16,"end":6123.16,"text":"也是時任委員"},{"start":6123.16,"end":6125.16,"text":"最後那個在"},{"start":6125.16,"end":6127.16,"text":"張志豪被提名人這邊"},{"start":6127.16,"end":6129.16,"text":"其實他就是有"},{"start":6129.16,"end":6131.16,"text":"相關的一些法務經驗,不過"},{"start":6131.16,"end":6133.16,"text":"如果大家有去查資料,就會發現"},{"start":6133.16,"end":6135.16,"text":"森霸電力"},{"start":6135.16,"end":6137.16,"text":"他擔任獨董的森霸電力"},{"start":6137.16,"end":6139.16,"text":"其實目前跟台電有訴訟"},{"start":6139.16,"end":6141.16,"text":"案,有將近42.5億"},{"start":6141.16,"end":6143.16,"text":"的聯合行為,就是"},{"start":6143.16,"end":6145.16,"text":"就正在訴訟中"},{"start":6145.16,"end":6147.16,"text":"還有他有21億,在我們台南這邊"},{"start":6147.16,"end":6149.16,"text":"在我們21億的"},{"start":6149.16,"end":6151.16,"text":"這個回饋金仍然未繳"},{"start":6151.16,"end":6153.16,"text":"那麼第三個"},{"start":6153.16,"end":6155.16,"text":"他對於,對不起,還有核心"},{"start":6155.16,"end":6157.16,"text":"股份有限公司的獨立董事"},{"start":6157.16,"end":6159.16,"text":"這個大家應該聽了"},{"start":6159.16,"end":6161.16,"text":"很耳熟能詳"},{"start":6161.16,"end":6163.16,"text":"他就是在COVID-19違法施打疫苗"},{"start":6163.16,"end":6165.16,"text":"的一個公司"},{"start":6165.16,"end":6167.16,"text":"那這些如果"},{"start":6167.16,"end":6169.16,"text":"在被提名人資料說,他"},{"start":6169.16,"end":6171.16,"text":"經由這些東西去參加了公司自治理"},{"start":6171.16,"end":6173.16,"text":"我們非常的"},{"start":6173.09,"end":6175.09,"text":"我們非常的懷疑喔"},{"start":6175.09,"end":6177.09,"text":"對於這樣子的一個公司自治理"},{"start":6177.09,"end":6179.09,"text":"如何能夠提升NCC"},{"start":6179.09,"end":6181.09,"text":"往更好的一個,尤其是剛剛"},{"start":6181.09,"end":6183.09,"text":"那個我們的"},{"start":6183.09,"end":6185.09,"text":"那個莊博正"},{"start":6185.09,"end":6187.09,"text":"老師講的,如何"},{"start":6187.09,"end":6189.09,"text":"去對於NCC已經敗壞的"},{"start":6189.09,"end":6191.09,"text":"一個關鍵,能夠提升他的"},{"start":6191.09,"end":6193.09,"text":"NCC自治理,好,謝謝"},{"start":6195.87,"end":6197.87,"text":"好,非常謝謝莊博老師"},{"start":6200.75,"end":6202.75,"text":"好,我們非常感謝各位學者專家"},{"start":6202.75,"end":6204.75,"text":"還有我們剛有"},{"start":6204.75,"end":6206.75,"text":"到場的委員"},{"start":6206.75,"end":6208.75,"text":"現在大家都已發言完畢"},{"start":6208.75,"end":6210.75,"text":"那我們也針對今天的"},{"start":6210.75,"end":6212.75,"text":"公聽會"},{"start":6212.75,"end":6214.75,"text":"做一下的結論"},{"start":6214.75,"end":6216.75,"text":"我們再次感謝各位學者專家"},{"start":6216.75,"end":6218.75,"text":"提供寶貴的意見"},{"start":6218.75,"end":6220.75,"text":"作為日後我們審查"},{"start":6220.75,"end":6222.75,"text":"本人事同樣的一個"},{"start":6222.75,"end":6224.75,"text":"參考"},{"start":6224,"end":6226,"text":"今天所有處理人員的發言"},{"start":6226,"end":6228,"text":"及提供的書面資料"},{"start":6229.12,"end":6231.12,"text":"都會列入記錄"},{"start":6231.12,"end":6233.12,"text":"刊登於立法院的公報之外"},{"start":6233.12,"end":6235.12,"text":"也會另外製作成"},{"start":6235.12,"end":6237.12,"text":"本公聽會的報告"},{"start":6237.12,"end":6239.12,"text":"送交本院全體委員"},{"start":6239.12,"end":6241.12,"text":"及今天所有出席貴賓"},{"start":6241.12,"end":6243.12,"text":"來參與,好,我們今天的"},{"start":6243.12,"end":6245.12,"text":"會議結束,好,謝謝大家"},{"start":6245.12,"end":6247.12,"text":"散會"},{"start":6248.1,"end":6250.1,"text":"謝謝"}],"speakers":[{"total_seconds":383,"embed_id":"SPEAKER_00","speaker":"SPEAKER_00","embedding":"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"},{"total_seconds":366.19,"embed_id":"SPEAKER_01","speaker":"SPEAKER_01","embedding":"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"},{"total_seconds":268.75,"embed_id":"SPEAKER_02","speaker":"SPEAKER_02","embedding":"ZaQ2vlwrSD6pa9I9/meYPWLV6jspCwo+/KX/Pc/oJL7gt2m98Ek7Pt2wqzzQ8qA8mMMEvhWLvDzq2cG9BBCSvgmYzD3hfLk92rLkPc9j7D39KIG9xwSMPl1+pb55koo+DXu4PmHdED/EuJy9lqQLPkIBp72RP+M9axYCvA6hyr0tt8K900KTPVhPwD6jA668eKckvMCtgL3no8s9WCglvaO7ZrzsOk++u9I2vU2a/D26vLI9U8m8PqVaJr6E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