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病案審查委員吳小林等18人領聚"},{"start":1997.18,"end":2001.02,"text":"懲戒法院組織法第6條及第7條條文修正草案等2案"},{"start":2001.02,"end":2004.14,"text":"本次會議有委員陳昭思等8人提出質詢"},{"start":2004.14,"end":2006.94,"text":"委員蔡其昌等3人提出書面質詢"},{"start":2006.94,"end":2009.18,"text":"決議1 報告及詢答完畢"},{"start":2009.18,"end":2011.98,"text":"2 第一案至第5案均另定期繼續審查"},{"start":2011.98,"end":2015.5,"text":"3 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謝謝"},{"start":2045.4099999999999,"end":2047.57,"text":"那麼今天列席的官員有"},{"start":2047.57,"end":2050.21,"text":"司法院的高清志秘書長"},{"start":2051.02,"end":2053.2599999999998,"text":"然後法務部的黃茉欣政務次長"},{"start":2054.95,"end":2056.95,"text":"以及這個叫政署副署長"},{"start":2056.95,"end":2058.15,"text":"書副署長"},{"start":2059.73,"end":2063.49,"text":"那麼其他的列席代表就請參閱名單"},{"start":2063.49,"end":2066.77,"text":"本席不在逐一介紹並列入公報紀錄"},{"start":2066.77,"end":2068.61,"text":"本次議程討論事項排定"},{"start":2068.61,"end":2073.41,"text":"就是審查委員賴會員等17人所擬具的刑事訴訟法"},{"start":2073.41,"end":2075.97,"text":"部分條文修正草案等7案"},{"start":2075.97,"end":2079.65,"text":"那本次的會議就先進行詢答"},{"start":2082.0099999999998,"end":2085.6099999999997,"text":"那麼我們首先先進行委員提案說明"},{"start":2085.6099999999997,"end":2088.33,"text":"每位發言的時間是3分鐘"},{"start":2088.33,"end":2090.89,"text":"那麼我們就先請提案人"},{"start":2090.89,"end":2093.69,"text":"提案委員來進行提案說明"},{"start":2093.69,"end":2097.37,"text":"首先我們先邀請侯孟凱委員來進行提案說明"},{"start":2099.11,"end":2100.07,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":2104.46,"end":2107.5,"text":"主席在場各位委員以及司法院秘書長"},{"start":2107.5,"end":2109.5,"text":"我們司法院的代表"},{"start":2109.5,"end":2113.1,"text":"執政權再大也不能大過憲法"},{"start":2113.1,"end":2115.5,"text":"中華民國憲法是五權分立"},{"start":2115.5,"end":2119.5,"text":"大家共同互相尊重各自其職"},{"start":2119.5,"end":2123.1,"text":"但最重要的是我們要花所有的力氣"},{"start":2123.1,"end":2126.54,"text":"讓台灣2350萬人有一個更好的生活"},{"start":2126.54,"end":2128.54,"text":"所以剛剛坐在台下"},{"start":2128.54,"end":2130.3,"text":"孟凱跟我們中憲委員"},{"start":2130.3,"end":2134.1400000000003,"text":"雖然他現在也在忙著他為人民服務的機會"},{"start":2134.14,"end":2136.46,"text":"可是他也一樣來到這個現場"},{"start":2136.46,"end":2138.46,"text":"其實我們都只有一個感慨"},{"start":2138.46,"end":2141.66,"text":"就是政府如果說現在沒有聽到被害者"},{"start":2141.66,"end":2143.66,"text":"聽到廣大民眾的訴求"},{"start":2143.66,"end":2145.66,"text":"而因為還是要搞政治的話"},{"start":2145.66,"end":2149.66,"text":"我們還是要善盡職守為人民來把關"},{"start":2149.66,"end":2151.66,"text":"因此感謝今天召委提出"},{"start":2151.66,"end":2154.3799999999997,"text":"刑事訴訟法不問條文的修正草案"},{"start":2154.3799999999997,"end":2156.3799999999997,"text":"我們要處理的問題核心很簡單"},{"start":2156.3799999999997,"end":2159.18,"text":"就是過去到現在"},{"start":2159.18,"end":2163.66,"text":"長期被忽略被忽視被輕視的犯罪被害人"},{"start":2163.66,"end":2165.66,"text":"在刑事審判程序中"},{"start":2165.66,"end":2168.7,"text":"不是只是一個來被通知法院的人"},{"start":2168.7,"end":2171.5,"text":"而是能夠真正擁有合理效率"},{"start":2171.5,"end":2174.2999999999997,"text":"而且尊重的程序參與權"},{"start":2174.2999999999997,"end":2176.8599999999997,"text":"因為我們不要讓所謂的訴訟參與"},{"start":2176.8599999999997,"end":2179.66,"text":"變成流於刑事主義"},{"start":2179.66,"end":2183.3399999999997,"text":"尤其是對於重大暴力性侵害人家庭暴力的案件"},{"start":2183.3399999999997,"end":2187.66,"text":"被害者其家屬不只是承受犯罪所受到的傷害"},{"start":2187.66,"end":2189.66,"text":"進入到司法程序之中"},{"start":2189.66,"end":2192.46,"text":"還必須面對繁複的訴訟程序"},{"start":2192.46,"end":2196.86,"text":"被告證人以及旁聽群眾所帶來的心理壓力"},{"start":2196.86,"end":2201.18,"text":"如果說我們現前法令只有保障他們到庭聽訊"},{"start":2201.18,"end":2203.18,"text":"最後陳述幾句"},{"start":2203.18,"end":2205.9,"text":"卻沒有辦法合理的掌握審判的資訊"},{"start":2205.9,"end":2209.1,"text":"缺乏充分的代理跟程序協助的話"},{"start":2209.1,"end":2211.9,"text":"那就真的只是刑事主義"},{"start":2212.59,"end":2214.9900000000002,"text":"因此本期間所提出來的版本"},{"start":2214.9900000000002,"end":2218.9900000000002,"text":"也受到多位委員的共同連署以及這個共提"},{"start":2218.9900000000002,"end":2220.9900000000002,"text":"最主要就要從幾個面向來補強"},{"start":2220.9900000000002,"end":2222.9900000000002,"text":"包括訴訟參與人"},{"start":2222.9900000000002,"end":2227.55,"text":"可以對於偏頗有餘的法官依法申請迴避"},{"start":2227.55,"end":2231.3100000000004,"text":"擴大被害者及家屬委任代理人的保障"},{"start":2231.3100000000004,"end":2235.7900000000004,"text":"以及能夠讓訴訟參與人在一定條件下申請"},{"start":2235.7900000000004,"end":2241.15,"text":"取得審判的錄音錄影核對筆錄以及了解程序的進行"},{"start":2241.31,"end":2245.15,"text":"還有我們也希望能夠把被害人表示意見的範圍"},{"start":2245.15,"end":2247.15,"text":"從單純的科行輕重"},{"start":2247.15,"end":2249.71,"text":"擴及到附條件的緩刑保安處分"},{"start":2249.71,"end":2253.55,"text":"以及其他與被害人安全尊嚴生活"},{"start":2253.55,"end":2255.55,"text":"有重大關聯的處置"},{"start":2256.35,"end":2260.35,"text":"特別強調這項修法不是要把被害人變成另一個檢察官"},{"start":2260.35,"end":2262.35,"text":"也不是要削弱被告的防禦權"},{"start":2262.35,"end":2266.35,"text":"相關的程序仍受法院許可、必要性、相當性"},{"start":2266.35,"end":2270.35,"text":"私密保護以及訴訟秩序的節制"},{"start":2270.35,"end":2274.35,"text":"但我們追求的是一個更成熟的刑事司法制度"},{"start":2274.35,"end":2278.35,"text":"保障被告的公平審判"},{"start":2278.35,"end":2282.35,"text":"但也要讓被害人的尊嚴、聲音以及程序正義"},{"start":2282.35,"end":2284.35,"text":"不要再被遺忘"},{"start":2284.75,"end":2286.75,"text":"在這次的修法裡面"},{"start":2286.75,"end":2288.75,"text":"我們希望競速能夠巡達完畢之後"},{"start":2288.75,"end":2290.75,"text":"進入到逐條"},{"start":2290.75,"end":2292.75,"text":"真真正正看到"},{"start":2291.94,"end":2295.94,"text":"台灣社會現在所缺乏的弱勢保障"},{"start":2295.94,"end":2297.94,"text":"並且我們來補齊這一塊"},{"start":2297.94,"end":2299.94,"text":"以上謝謝"},{"start":2299.98,"end":2302.38,"text":"謝謝洪孟凱委員"},{"start":2301.92,"end":2306.32,"text":"接下來我們邀請五中縣委員來進行提案說明"},{"start":2312.07,"end":2314.07,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":2314.07,"end":2316.07,"text":"我這次的草案總共五個重點"},{"start":2316.07,"end":2318.07,"text":"包括被害人權益"},{"start":2318.07,"end":2322.07,"text":"書記官支援還有放寬免檢送條件"},{"start":2322.07,"end":2326.07,"text":"被害人聲音不能繼續在司法裡面消失"},{"start":2326.07,"end":2330.07,"text":"還有書記官不應該繼續用健康來換案件的結案"},{"start":2330.07,"end":2332.07,"text":"我想這次是這五個重點"},{"start":2332.07,"end":2334.07,"text":"那但我今天提案說明"},{"start":2334.07,"end":2338.07,"text":"我要把其中的兩個重要的再重新再論述一次"},{"start":2338.07,"end":2340.07,"text":"今年三月貪汙被告中油公司的前執行長徐漢"},{"start":2340.4700000000003,"end":2342.4700000000003,"text":"他本來被裁定電子腳鐐"},{"start":2342.4700000000003,"end":2344.4700000000003,"text":"結果在宣判的前四天"},{"start":2344.4700000000003,"end":2348.4700000000003,"text":"他用殺輪機一分鐘就切斷電子腳鐐"},{"start":2348.4700000000003,"end":2350.4700000000003,"text":"帶著現金就跑掉"},{"start":2350.4700000000003,"end":2352.4700000000003,"text":"那監控中心他得到警報之後再趕過去"},{"start":2352.4700000000003,"end":2354.4700000000003,"text":"現場只剩下切斷了電子腳鐐"},{"start":2354.4700000000003,"end":2356.4700000000003,"text":"人早就不見了"},{"start":2356.4700000000003,"end":2358.4700000000003,"text":"所以這個案子暴露了一個漏洞"},{"start":2358.4700000000003,"end":2360.4700000000003,"text":"就是電子腳鐐他不是萬靈丹"},{"start":2360.4700000000003,"end":2362.4700000000003,"text":"設備斷了人失聯了"},{"start":2362.4700000000003,"end":2364.4700000000003,"text":"第一線警力能做什麼"},{"start":2364.4700000000003,"end":2366.4700000000003,"text":"依照現行法的規定"},{"start":2366.4700000000003,"end":2368.4700000000003,"text":"他只能等法院重新裁定"},{"start":2368.87,"end":2370.87,"text":"才能再抓人"},{"start":2370.87,"end":2372.87,"text":"這個等待時間就是被告逃亡的時間"},{"start":2372.87,"end":2374.87,"text":"所以從去年的中文之戰到今年的徐漢"},{"start":2374.87,"end":2376.87,"text":"我們證明了一件事情"},{"start":2376.87,"end":2378.87,"text":"我們防逃的制度即使反應能力太差"},{"start":2378.87,"end":2380.87,"text":"所以我的草案這次明定說"},{"start":2380.87,"end":2382.87,"text":"只要被告違反規定"},{"start":2382.87,"end":2384.87,"text":"情況急迫的時候"},{"start":2384.87,"end":2386.87,"text":"警察可以先抓人"},{"start":2386.87,"end":2388.87,"text":"事後再跟檢察官請票"},{"start":2388.87,"end":2390.87,"text":"那第二個我想要論述的重點"},{"start":2390.87,"end":2392.87,"text":"是判決書的簡化"},{"start":2392.87,"end":2394.87,"text":"那有人評論說"},{"start":2394.87,"end":2396.87,"text":"如果判決書簡化"},{"start":2397.27,"end":2399.27,"text":"法官少寫一些字"},{"start":2399.27,"end":2401.27,"text":"會不會違背了法官說禮物"},{"start":2401.27,"end":2403.27,"text":"我想我自己當過檢察官"},{"start":2403.27,"end":2405.27,"text":"我很清楚司法現場"},{"start":2405.27,"end":2407.27,"text":"現在是什麼的樣子"},{"start":2407.27,"end":2411.27,"text":"讓司法官心力交瘁的事情是什麼"},{"start":2411.27,"end":2413.27,"text":"我來跟各位報告"},{"start":2413.27,"end":2415.27,"text":"司法院4月的新聞稿提到"},{"start":2415.27,"end":2417.27,"text":"114年地方法院總受理件數"},{"start":2417.27,"end":2419.27,"text":"相較110年"},{"start":2419.27,"end":2421.27,"text":"增加了18萬8千多件"},{"start":2421.27,"end":2423.27,"text":"漲幅將近4成"},{"start":2423.27,"end":2425.27,"text":"這個漲幅比房價漲的還高"},{"start":2425.67,"end":2427.67,"text":"比房價漲的還誇張"},{"start":2427.67,"end":2429.67,"text":"司法院書面報告也提到"},{"start":2429.67,"end":2431.67,"text":"現在的地院的刑庭"},{"start":2431.67,"end":2433.67,"text":"每個月每個法官平均"},{"start":2433.67,"end":2435.67,"text":"新收案件數從52件"},{"start":2435.67,"end":2437.67,"text":"攀升到68件"},{"start":2437.67,"end":2439.67,"text":"增加超過3成"},{"start":2439.67,"end":2441.67,"text":"那法官人數呢"},{"start":2441.67,"end":2443.67,"text":"增加卻不到3%"},{"start":2443.67,"end":2445.67,"text":"那案件量漲了將近40%"},{"start":2445.67,"end":2447.67,"text":"但是法官多不到3%"},{"start":2447.67,"end":2449.67,"text":"那這個缺口是靠法官、書記官"},{"start":2449.67,"end":2451.67,"text":"他們賣肝長期用自己的健康"},{"start":2451.67,"end":2453.67,"text":"在那邊打拼的"},{"start":2453.67,"end":2456.07,"text":"那我很多時候很清楚"},{"start":2457.58,"end":2459.58,"text":"司法官最心力交瘁的"},{"start":2459.58,"end":2461.58,"text":"常常是書類的製作"},{"start":2461.58,"end":2463.58,"text":"他不是開庭、不是帶隊搜索"},{"start":2463.58,"end":2465.58,"text":"不是熬夜,他常常都是書類的製作"},{"start":2465.58,"end":2467.58,"text":"所以我規劃"},{"start":2467.58,"end":2469.58,"text":"什麼樣的案子可以用簡化"},{"start":2469.58,"end":2471.58,"text":"第一個被告已經認罪"},{"start":2471.58,"end":2473.58,"text":"或是事實沒有爭議"},{"start":2473.58,"end":2475.58,"text":"或是雙方對起訴內容不爭執的案件"},{"start":2475.58,"end":2477.58,"text":"像這種法官、法院"},{"start":2477.58,"end":2479.58,"text":"本來就不需要花大量的"},{"start":2479.58,"end":2481.58,"text":"篇幅去記載"},{"start":2481.58,"end":2483.58,"text":"事實是怎麼認定"},{"start":2483.58,"end":2485.58,"text":"這個證據為什麼採"},{"start":2485.98,"end":2487.98,"text":"所以這個部分我們要把它簡化"},{"start":2487.98,"end":2489.98,"text":"那因為這些沒有爭點"},{"start":2489.98,"end":2491.98,"text":"卻要求一份完整的判決書格式"},{"start":2491.98,"end":2493.98,"text":"其實這個沒有必要"},{"start":2493.98,"end":2495.98,"text":"而且是把法官的時間"},{"start":2495.98,"end":2497.98,"text":"鎖在這個沒有爭議的文書上面"},{"start":2499.42,"end":2501.42,"text":"當然我的草案也同時設了一道防線"},{"start":2501.42,"end":2503.42,"text":"就是案件如果是"},{"start":2503.42,"end":2505.42,"text":"五年以上的重罪"},{"start":2505.42,"end":2507.42,"text":"但是最後法官找了一堆"},{"start":2507.42,"end":2509.42,"text":"簡型的條件把它剪到判刑兩年以下"},{"start":2509.42,"end":2511.42,"text":"這個時候不能用"},{"start":2511.42,"end":2513.42,"text":"簡化的方式"},{"start":2513.42,"end":2515.42,"text":"因為法官必須對這一類的案子"},{"start":2515.42,"end":2517.42,"text":"去說理清楚"},{"start":2517.42,"end":2519.42,"text":"這個是社會需要看到的部分"},{"start":2519.42,"end":2521.42,"text":"最後我強調"},{"start":2521.42,"end":2523.42,"text":"司法過勞的這件事情"},{"start":2523.42,"end":2525.42,"text":"已經很嚴重了"},{"start":2525.42,"end":2527.42,"text":"最後的影響不是這些司法官"},{"start":2527.82,"end":2529.82,"text":"而是所有受害者會是全國人民的身上"},{"start":2529.82,"end":2531.82,"text":"司法人力長期的超載"},{"start":2531.82,"end":2533.82,"text":"負荷不良"},{"start":2533.82,"end":2535.82,"text":"其實這個消耗過量的"},{"start":2535.82,"end":2537.82,"text":"精力在文書作業上面"},{"start":2537.82,"end":2539.82,"text":"那真正複雜有爭議"},{"start":2539.82,"end":2541.82,"text":"他必須攸關人民"},{"start":2541.82,"end":2543.82,"text":"自由生命財產的重大案件"},{"start":2543.82,"end":2545.82,"text":"得不到有應有的"},{"start":2545.82,"end":2547.82,"text":"審理資源那嚴當"},{"start":2547.82,"end":2549.82,"text":"就會讓每一個在等待"},{"start":2549.82,"end":2551.82,"text":"司法給出答案的人永遠等不到"},{"start":2551.82,"end":2553.82,"text":"所以這是我這次修法"},{"start":2553.82,"end":2555.82,"text":"想要解決的一個重大問題"},{"start":2555.82,"end":2558.2200000000003,"text":"謝謝各位"},{"start":2571.24,"end":2573.64,"text":"好,接著我們請翁小林委員做提案說明"},{"start":2581.14,"end":2583.14,"text":"主席、各位委員"},{"start":2583.14,"end":2585.14,"text":"還有在座的司法院還有法務部"},{"start":2585.14,"end":2587.14,"text":"以及機關代表們"},{"start":2587.14,"end":2589.14,"text":"大家好"},{"start":2589.14,"end":2591.14,"text":"那本席今天所提出的三項刑事訴訟法"},{"start":2591.14,"end":2593.14,"text":"草案的修正"},{"start":2593.14,"end":2595.14,"text":"核心呢"},{"start":2595.14,"end":2597.14,"text":"主要是可以歸納為兩個方向"},{"start":2597.14,"end":2599.14,"text":"第一個是提升刑事審判的效能"},{"start":2599.14,"end":2601.14,"text":"我們要讓有限的司法資源"},{"start":2601.14,"end":2603.14,"text":"可以用在真正需要審慎"},{"start":2603.14,"end":2605.14,"text":"審理的案件之上"},{"start":2605.14,"end":2607.14,"text":"第二個呢我們就是要強化"},{"start":2607.14,"end":2609.14,"text":"犯罪被害人的訴訟參與"},{"start":2609.54,"end":2611.54,"text":"所以我們要讓這個聲音"},{"start":2611.54,"end":2613.54,"text":"真正能夠進入到審判"},{"start":2613.54,"end":2615.54,"text":"可以反映在判決上面"},{"start":2615.54,"end":2617.54,"text":"那麼首先"},{"start":2617.54,"end":2619.54,"text":"現在提升司法效能的方面"},{"start":2619.54,"end":2621.54,"text":"那目前我們照刑事案件的數量"},{"start":2621.54,"end":2623.54,"text":"一直不斷的持續的增加"},{"start":2623.54,"end":2625.54,"text":"法院、法官以及書記官"},{"start":2625.54,"end":2627.54,"text":"都承受相當"},{"start":2627.54,"end":2629.54,"text":"沉重的案件負擔"},{"start":2629.54,"end":2631.54,"text":"那麼因此在第一個部分"},{"start":2631.54,"end":2633.54,"text":"條文修正草案"},{"start":2633.54,"end":2635.54,"text":"本席這邊是以民案、訴斷"},{"start":2635.54,"end":2637.54,"text":"疑案、審斷為原則"},{"start":2637.54,"end":2639.54,"text":"刑事程序分流"},{"start":2639.54,"end":2641.54,"text":"科技運用以及簡化重複的程序"},{"start":2641.54,"end":2643.54,"text":"等等這三方面來著手"},{"start":2643.54,"end":2645.54,"text":"這包括了"},{"start":2645.54,"end":2647.54,"text":"要適度的擴大"},{"start":2647.54,"end":2649.54,"text":"檢視的審判以及"},{"start":2649.54,"end":2651.54,"text":"協商程序的適用範圍"},{"start":2651.54,"end":2653.54,"text":"那麼對於人身自由受到拘束的被告"},{"start":2653.54,"end":2655.54,"text":"在本人同意不妨礙"},{"start":2655.54,"end":2657.54,"text":"與辯護人"},{"start":2657.54,"end":2659.54,"text":"充分自由溝通以及"},{"start":2659.54,"end":2661.54,"text":"法院認為適當的前提之下"},{"start":2661.54,"end":2663.54,"text":"就可以利用"},{"start":2663.54,"end":2665.54,"text":"視訊設備來進行"},{"start":2665.54,"end":2667.54,"text":"檢視審判來減少"},{"start":2667.54,"end":2669.54,"text":"體檢往返所耗費的"},{"start":2669.54,"end":2671.54,"text":"時間與人力"},{"start":2671.54,"end":2673.54,"text":"同時草案也讓審判的"},{"start":2673.54,"end":2675.54,"text":"筆錄製作更為彈性"},{"start":2675.54,"end":2677.54,"text":"要簡化當事人已經"},{"start":2677.54,"end":2679.54,"text":"實質、知悉而且同意的"},{"start":2679.54,"end":2681.54,"text":"證據調查程序"},{"start":2681.54,"end":2683.54,"text":"那麼對於"},{"start":2683.54,"end":2685.54,"text":"檢視審判的案件"},{"start":2685.54,"end":2687.54,"text":"也可以宣示判決筆錄"},{"start":2687.54,"end":2689.54,"text":"來取代完整的判決書"},{"start":2689.54,"end":2691.54,"text":"假設當事人合法"},{"start":2691.54,"end":2693.54,"text":"提起上訴"},{"start":2693.54,"end":2695.54,"text":"如果當事人"},{"start":2695.54,"end":2697.54,"text":"可以合法提起上訴"},{"start":2697.54,"end":2699.54,"text":"就可以再補刑製作判決書"},{"start":2699.54,"end":2701.54,"text":"那麼這個修法的目的"},{"start":2701.54,"end":2703.54,"text":"不是犧牲程序的保障"},{"start":2703.54,"end":2705.54,"text":"而是要減少沒有實質必要的"},{"start":2705.54,"end":2707.54,"text":"重複作業"},{"start":2707.54,"end":2709.54,"text":"我們要把司法的資源"},{"start":2709.54,"end":2711.54,"text":"留給真正需要耗費時日調查的"},{"start":2711.54,"end":2713.54,"text":"繁複案件"},{"start":2714.36,"end":2716.36,"text":"其次在犯罪被害人權益的保障方面"},{"start":2716.36,"end":2718.36,"text":"那麼我們也提出"},{"start":2718.36,"end":2720.36,"text":"兩項相互配套的修正"},{"start":2720.36,"end":2722.36,"text":"那我們知道現行的制度"},{"start":2722.36,"end":2724.36,"text":"雖然已經有犯罪被害人的訴訟參與機制"},{"start":2724.36,"end":2726.36,"text":"但是參與人"},{"start":2726.36,"end":2728.36,"text":"對於證據調查的實質參與"},{"start":2728.36,"end":2730.36,"text":"仍然是相當有限的"},{"start":2730.36,"end":2732.36,"text":"因此本席正式修正"},{"start":2732.36,"end":2734.36,"text":"第455條之46"},{"start":2734.36,"end":2736.36,"text":"就是要讓訴訟參與人"},{"start":2736.36,"end":2738.36,"text":"以及他的代理人"},{"start":2738.36,"end":2740.36,"text":"不是只是坐在法庭裡面"},{"start":2740.36,"end":2742.36,"text":"聽審"},{"start":2742.36,"end":2744.36,"text":"要求證據"},{"start":2744.36,"end":2746.36,"text":"的證明裡來表示意見"},{"start":2746.36,"end":2748.36,"text":"並且在調查證據的時候"},{"start":2748.36,"end":2750.36,"text":"他是有適當的機會"},{"start":2750.36,"end":2752.36,"text":"可以去詢問檢察官"},{"start":2752.36,"end":2754.36,"text":"證人鑑定人或是被告"},{"start":2754.36,"end":2756.36,"text":"當然也同時保留"},{"start":2756.36,"end":2758.36,"text":"審判長的訴訟指揮權"},{"start":2758.36,"end":2760.36,"text":"來避免程序遭到不當的延宕"},{"start":2760.36,"end":2762.36,"text":"但是呢我們要知道"},{"start":2762.36,"end":2764.36,"text":"有機會說還不夠"},{"start":2764.36,"end":2766.36,"text":"更重要的是我們必須要確保"},{"start":2766.36,"end":2768.36,"text":"法院是有認真"},{"start":2768.36,"end":2770.36,"text":"聽有留下理由"},{"start":2770.36,"end":2772.36,"text":"留下紀錄"},{"start":2772.36,"end":2774.36,"text":"因此在第310條修正草案"},{"start":2774.36,"end":2776.36,"text":"進一步的要求"},{"start":2776.36,"end":2778.36,"text":"有罪判決的理由當中"},{"start":2778.36,"end":2780.36,"text":"應該要記載訴訟參與人"},{"start":2780.36,"end":2782.36,"text":"以及其代理人就證據"},{"start":2782.36,"end":2784.36,"text":"證明力以及科行範圍"},{"start":2784.36,"end":2786.36,"text":"所表示的意見"},{"start":2786.36,"end":2788.36,"text":"那麼如此才能夠讓被害人的程序"},{"start":2788.36,"end":2790.36,"text":"參與從刑事上的發言"},{"start":2790.36,"end":2792.36,"text":"進一步的成為法院"},{"start":2792.36,"end":2794.36,"text":"必須面對判決"},{"start":2794.36,"end":2796.36,"text":"要可以檢驗的實質參與"},{"start":2796.36,"end":2798.36,"text":"這三項修法"},{"start":2798.36,"end":2800.36,"text":"看起來似乎是"},{"start":2800.36,"end":2802.36,"text":"分別處理司法效率以及被害人權益"},{"start":2802.36,"end":2804.36,"text":"但是它實際上"},{"start":2804.36,"end":2806.36,"text":"都有一個共同的目標"},{"start":2806.36,"end":2808.36,"text":"就是要簡化程序"},{"start":2808.36,"end":2810.36,"text":"該簡化的程序就要合理的簡化"},{"start":2810.36,"end":2812.36,"text":"該保障的權利就應該"},{"start":2812.36,"end":2814.36,"text":"要實質的保障"},{"start":2814.36,"end":2816.36,"text":"那我們希望透過刑事程序"},{"start":2816.36,"end":2818.36,"text":"的合理分流"},{"start":2818.36,"end":2820.36,"text":"科技以及人力資源"},{"start":2820.36,"end":2822.36,"text":"的有效運用來降低"},{"start":2822.36,"end":2824.36,"text":"司法不必要的負擔"},{"start":2824.36,"end":2826.36,"text":"同時也要讓犯罪被害人"},{"start":2826.36,"end":2828.36,"text":"不再只是刑事程序的"},{"start":2828.36,"end":2830.36,"text":"旁聽者"},{"start":2830.36,"end":2832.36,"text":"而是真正具有程序參與"},{"start":2832.36,"end":2834.36,"text":"以及意見表達空間"},{"start":2834.36,"end":2836.36,"text":"那麼我們要讓司法"},{"start":2836.36,"end":2838.36,"text":"更有效率"},{"start":2838.36,"end":2840.36,"text":"也要讓程序更有正義"},{"start":2840.36,"end":2842.36,"text":"要讓案件能夠迅速的審判"},{"start":2842.36,"end":2844.36,"text":"也要讓人民的聲音"},{"start":2844.36,"end":2846.36,"text":"真正的被法院聽見"},{"start":2846.36,"end":2848.36,"text":"所以以上三項修正草案"},{"start":2848.36,"end":2850.36,"text":"還請各位委員支持"},{"start":2850.36,"end":2852.36,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":2866.2,"end":2868.2,"text":"那麼接下來我們就請機關代表報告"},{"start":2868.2,"end":2870.2,"text":"那每位發言時間是三分鐘"},{"start":2870.2,"end":2872.2,"text":"我們首先先請"},{"start":2872.2,"end":2874.2,"text":"司法院的高晶智秘書長"},{"start":2874.2,"end":2876.2,"text":"來進行報告謝謝"},{"start":2879.94,"end":2881.94,"text":"主席各位委員"},{"start":2881.94,"end":2883.94,"text":"各位先進大家早安"},{"start":2883.94,"end":2885.94,"text":"今天"},{"start":2885.94,"end":2887.94,"text":"法治委員會會議審查"},{"start":2887.94,"end":2889.94,"text":"委員會議員等"},{"start":2889.94,"end":2891.94,"text":"17人凝聚的刑事訴訟法"},{"start":2891.94,"end":2893.94,"text":"部分條文"},{"start":2893.94,"end":2895.94,"text":"修正草案等七案"},{"start":2895.94,"end":2897.94,"text":"本院封邀前來練習"},{"start":2897.94,"end":2899.94,"text":"現在報告如下"},{"start":2899.94,"end":2901.94,"text":"進行指教本次委員提案"},{"start":2901.94,"end":2903.94,"text":"的核心有三點"},{"start":2903.94,"end":2905.94,"text":"第一個是強化被害人地位"},{"start":2905.94,"end":2907.94,"text":"妥適配置司法資源"},{"start":2907.94,"end":2909.94,"text":"以及落實憲法法庭"},{"start":2909.94,"end":2911.94,"text":"113年憲判自第8號"},{"start":2911.94,"end":2913.94,"text":"判決議制"},{"start":2914.14,"end":2916.14,"text":"那現在針對這三大"},{"start":2916.14,"end":2918.14,"text":"核心向委員報告"},{"start":2918.14,"end":2920.14,"text":"第一個讓被害人的聲音"},{"start":2920.14,"end":2922.14,"text":"在訴訟中被聽見"},{"start":2922.14,"end":2924.14,"text":"委員所提案真定的"},{"start":2924.14,"end":2926.14,"text":"被害影響陳述制度"},{"start":2926.14,"end":2928.14,"text":"在這個賦予訴訟"},{"start":2928.14,"end":2930.14,"text":"參與人就科行範圍"},{"start":2930.14,"end":2932.14,"text":"詢問被告的權利"},{"start":2932.14,"end":2934.14,"text":"這是在審判中注入"},{"start":2934.14,"end":2936.14,"text":"被害人真實聲音的"},{"start":2936.14,"end":2938.14,"text":"非常進步的舉措"},{"start":2938.14,"end":2940.14,"text":"本院進保贊同"},{"start":2940.14,"end":2942.14,"text":"但是對於是不是要給被害人"},{"start":2942.14,"end":2944.14,"text":"申請調查證據權"},{"start":2944.14,"end":2946.14,"text":"還有結問證人權的建議"},{"start":2946.14,"end":2948.14,"text":"可能我們要"},{"start":2948.14,"end":2950.14,"text":"稍微保守審慎些"},{"start":2950.14,"end":2952.14,"text":"因為如果是這樣"},{"start":2952.14,"end":2954.14,"text":"檢察官和訴訟參議員"},{"start":2954.14,"end":2956.14,"text":"非常可能各自申請"},{"start":2956.14,"end":2958.14,"text":"調查互相矛盾的證據"},{"start":2958.14,"end":2960.14,"text":"或做不一致的結問"},{"start":2960.14,"end":2962.14,"text":"可能會造成程序的混亂"},{"start":2962.14,"end":2964.14,"text":"甚至打亂"},{"start":2964.14,"end":2966.14,"text":"檢察官舉證的訴訟策略"},{"start":2966.14,"end":2968.14,"text":"所以整個程序是不是"},{"start":2968.14,"end":2970.14,"text":"因為這個權利的具備"},{"start":2970.14,"end":2972.14,"text":"而對被害人更有利"},{"start":2972.14,"end":2974.14,"text":"可能是建議審慎評估"},{"start":2974.14,"end":2976.14,"text":"第二個"},{"start":2976.14,"end":2978.14,"text":"關於妥適分配"},{"start":2978.14,"end":2980.14,"text":"司法資源非常感謝"},{"start":2980.14,"end":2982.14,"text":"委員們重視到我們司法"},{"start":2982.14,"end":2984.14,"text":"真的是處於崩潰的邊緣"},{"start":2984.14,"end":2986.14,"text":"剛剛委員有提到"},{"start":2986.14,"end":2988.14,"text":"我們的案件增長到"},{"start":2988.14,"end":2990.14,"text":"36.2%將近四成"},{"start":2990.14,"end":2992.14,"text":"可是我們法官跟數據官的人員成長"},{"start":2992.14,"end":2994.14,"text":"只有3%"},{"start":2994.14,"end":2996.14,"text":"跟11%"},{"start":2996.14,"end":2998.14,"text":"實在是沒有辦法負荷"},{"start":2998.14,"end":3000.14,"text":"暴增四成的案件量"},{"start":3000.14,"end":3002.14,"text":"那怎麼讓法官跟數據官"},{"start":3002.14,"end":3004.14,"text":"能夠繼續生存"},{"start":3004.14,"end":3006.14,"text":"司法需要增加人力"},{"start":3006.14,"end":3008.14,"text":"但司法也要有效管理"},{"start":3008.14,"end":3010.14,"text":"那委員提到的"},{"start":3010.14,"end":3012.14,"text":"擴大檢視審判程序"},{"start":3012.14,"end":3014.14,"text":"還有"},{"start":3014.28,"end":3016.28,"text":"簡化判決"},{"start":3017.96,"end":3019.96,"text":"有人會認為說我們是不寫判決"},{"start":3019.96,"end":3021.96,"text":"其實不是的"},{"start":3021.96,"end":3023.96,"text":"法官對於認罪"},{"start":3023.96,"end":3025.96,"text":"或者是非重大案件"},{"start":3025.96,"end":3027.96,"text":"他有"},{"start":3027.96,"end":3029.96,"text":"適用檢視審判程序的"},{"start":3029.96,"end":3031.96,"text":"才可以製作"},{"start":3031.96,"end":3033.96,"text":"記載主文或事實要旨"},{"start":3033.96,"end":3037.96,"text":"也要寫明所犯法條的判決筆錄"},{"start":3037.96,"end":3039.96,"text":"送達給被告和檢察官"},{"start":3039.96,"end":3041.96,"text":"他們有不服的時候"},{"start":3041.96,"end":3043.96,"text":"當然可以上訴"},{"start":3043.96,"end":3045.96,"text":"那從這邊來看"},{"start":3045.96,"end":3047.96,"text":"第一審判決整體上訴率"},{"start":3047.96,"end":3049.96,"text":"大概不到兩成"},{"start":3049.96,"end":3051.96,"text":"即使"},{"start":3051.96,"end":3053.96,"text":"可是我們是寫百分之百案判決"},{"start":3053.96,"end":3055.96,"text":"即使因為沒有理由"},{"start":3057.44,"end":3059.44,"text":"檢察官或被告要上訴"},{"start":3059.44,"end":3063.44,"text":"可是應該也不會是百分之百上訴"},{"start":3063.44,"end":3065.44,"text":"這種中間的"},{"start":3065.44,"end":3067.44,"text":"這個差距就是"},{"start":3067.44,"end":3069.44,"text":"可以讓法官檢審"},{"start":3069.44,"end":3073.44,"text":"製作判決的所花費的時間"},{"start":3073.44,"end":3075.44,"text":"那另外關於落實憲法法庭判決議旨"},{"start":3075.44,"end":3077.44,"text":"對委員的提案"},{"start":3077.44,"end":3081.44,"text":"我們均盡表尊重以及支持"},{"start":3081.44,"end":3083.44,"text":"另外要向委員報告的"},{"start":3083.44,"end":3085.44,"text":"本院已經凝聚"},{"start":3085.44,"end":3087.44,"text":"有關的刑事訴訟法"},{"start":3087.44,"end":3089.44,"text":"部分修正條文草案"},{"start":3089.44,"end":3091.44,"text":"也在114年9月18"},{"start":3091.44,"end":3093.44,"text":"115年4月30日"},{"start":3093.44,"end":3095.44,"text":"送請行政院會議賢中"},{"start":3095.44,"end":3099.44,"text":"那有關本院對於委員提案"},{"start":3100.1,"end":3102.1,"text":"所做的足案表示意見"},{"start":3102.1,"end":3104.1,"text":"請參與本院的書面報告"},{"start":3104.1,"end":3106.1,"text":"以上報告"},{"start":3106.1,"end":3108.1,"text":"敬請各位委員各位先進"},{"start":3108.1,"end":3110.1,"text":"指教謝謝"},{"start":3111.71,"end":3113.71,"text":"好謝謝高明署長"},{"start":3113.71,"end":3115.71,"text":"我們接下來再請法務部的"},{"start":3115.71,"end":3117.71,"text":"黃某姓正事來進行報告"},{"start":3117.71,"end":3119.71,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":3120.44,"end":3122.44,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3122.41,"end":3124.41,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士各位先生"},{"start":3124.41,"end":3126.41,"text":"今天奉邀列席大院委員會"},{"start":3126.41,"end":3128.41,"text":"請代表本部報告並被質詢"},{"start":3128.41,"end":3130.41,"text":"本部就夜館的部分"},{"start":3130.41,"end":3132.41,"text":"重點報告如下"},{"start":3132.41,"end":3134.41,"text":"第一有關於這個強化程序保障"},{"start":3134.41,"end":3136.41,"text":"及審判效率的部分"},{"start":3136.41,"end":3138.41,"text":"此行第三審強制辯護"},{"start":3138.41,"end":3140.41,"text":"及延遲辯論的部分"},{"start":3140.41,"end":3144.41,"text":"符合憲判至138號判決議旨"},{"start":3144.41,"end":3146.41,"text":"本部尊重委員的提案及"},{"start":3146.41,"end":3148.41,"text":"司法院的意見"},{"start":3148.41,"end":3150.41,"text":"另外有關於簡化政績調查的相關提案"},{"start":3150.41,"end":3152.41,"text":"其次有關於訴訟經濟並兼顧當事人權益"},{"start":3152.41,"end":3154.41,"text":"本部競表贊同"},{"start":3154.41,"end":3156.41,"text":"第二有關於強化犯罪被害人訴訟參與的部分"},{"start":3156.41,"end":3158.41,"text":"強化犯罪被害人的影響陳述"},{"start":3158.41,"end":3160.41,"text":"以及被害人是否可以委任代理人席位"},{"start":3160.41,"end":3162.41,"text":"以及保護相關措施修法"},{"start":3162.41,"end":3164.41,"text":"本部競表贊同"},{"start":3164.41,"end":3166.41,"text":"至於交付影音相關的重置物及抗告救濟的部分"},{"start":3166.41,"end":3168.41,"text":"涉及到影音外流影視及安全風險等程序負擔事項"},{"start":3168.41,"end":3170.41,"text":"另外訴訟參與影音的影音"},{"start":3170.41,"end":3172.41,"text":"以及影音外流影視及安全風險等程序負擔事項"},{"start":3172.41,"end":3174.41,"text":"另外訴訟參與影音的影音"},{"start":3174.41,"end":3176.41,"text":"以及影音外流影視及安全風險等程序負擔事項"},{"start":3176.41,"end":3178.41,"text":"另外訴訟參與人"},{"start":3178.41,"end":3180.41,"text":"申請獨立申請調查證據"},{"start":3180.41,"end":3182.41,"text":"跟直接發問以及意見"},{"start":3182.41,"end":3184.41,"text":"強制記名與筆錄"},{"start":3184.41,"end":3186.41,"text":"這涉及到這個程序地位"},{"start":3186.41,"end":3188.41,"text":"以及檢察官舉證責任"},{"start":3188.41,"end":3190.41,"text":"以及被告公平受審權"},{"start":3190.41,"end":3192.41,"text":"以及程序負擔"},{"start":3192.41,"end":3194.41,"text":"這部分"},{"start":3194.41,"end":3196.41,"text":"在一起"},{"start":3196.41,"end":3198.41,"text":"見請在著"},{"start":3198.41,"end":3200.41,"text":"另外有關於簡化判決書"},{"start":3200.41,"end":3202.41,"text":"檢視判決及協商程序部分"},{"start":3202.41,"end":3204.41,"text":"草案分別就簡化判決書"},{"start":3204.41,"end":3206.41,"text":"放寬至宣告刑一年或兩年以下"},{"start":3206.41,"end":3208.41,"text":"尤其徒刑拘禦罰金或免刑案件"},{"start":3208.41,"end":3210.41,"text":"使良刑的結果"},{"start":3210.41,"end":3212.41,"text":"跟判決書的製作與否"},{"start":3212.41,"end":3214.41,"text":"產生直接的連動"},{"start":3214.41,"end":3216.41,"text":"這樣恐會影響法官"},{"start":3216.41,"end":3218.41,"text":"形成從寬適用或減刑的規定"},{"start":3218.41,"end":3220.41,"text":"而傾向於宣告刑"},{"start":3220.41,"end":3222.41,"text":"較低的宣告刑"},{"start":3222.41,"end":3224.41,"text":"產生一個制度上的就因"},{"start":3224.41,"end":3226.41,"text":"制度上的就因"},{"start":3226.41,"end":3228.41,"text":"這部分上請在著"},{"start":3228.41,"end":3230.41,"text":"另外有關於檢視判決"},{"start":3230.41,"end":3232.41,"text":"另外有關於檢視審判"},{"start":3232.41,"end":3234.41,"text":"協商判決擴大適用的部分"},{"start":3234.41,"end":3236.41,"text":"將會使目前"},{"start":3236.41,"end":3238.41,"text":"現今影響國家非常嚴重的"},{"start":3238.41,"end":3240.41,"text":"洗錢內線交易"},{"start":3240.41,"end":3242.41,"text":"特別備信賄選"},{"start":3242.41,"end":3244.41,"text":"甚至部分影響國發安全的"},{"start":3244.41,"end":3246.41,"text":"本質最重的重罪"},{"start":3246.41,"end":3248.41,"text":"一併都納入簡化的程序"},{"start":3248.41,"end":3250.41,"text":"是否妥當人需評估"},{"start":3250.41,"end":3252.41,"text":"另外檢視判決如果"},{"start":3252.41,"end":3254.41,"text":"再搭配宣示判決"},{"start":3254.41,"end":3256.41,"text":"可以代替筆錄"},{"start":3256.41,"end":3258.41,"text":"可以代替判決書"},{"start":3258.41,"end":3260.41,"text":"並申勸去完整事實的認定"},{"start":3260.41,"end":3262.41,"text":"證據取捨及良心的理由"},{"start":3262.41,"end":3264.41,"text":"將會影響假官被告"},{"start":3264.41,"end":3266.41,"text":"以及被害人評估是否提起"},{"start":3266.41,"end":3268.41,"text":"上訴的可能性"},{"start":3268.41,"end":3270.41,"text":"將會嚴重的減損"},{"start":3270.41,"end":3272.41,"text":"司法的信賴跟透明度"},{"start":3272.41,"end":3274.41,"text":"上訴的提案進行在著"},{"start":3274.41,"end":3276.41,"text":"另外有關強化防逃的部分"},{"start":3276.41,"end":3278.41,"text":"羈押替代的處分"},{"start":3278.41,"end":3280.41,"text":"在急迫情況之下可以進行具體"},{"start":3280.41,"end":3282.41,"text":"這有助於強化相關的防逃機制"},{"start":3282.41,"end":3284.41,"text":"本部也競表贊同"},{"start":3284.41,"end":3286.41,"text":"其餘的意見參請今天的書面報告"},{"start":3286.41,"end":3288.41,"text":"以上報告謝謝各位指教"},{"start":3288.41,"end":3290.41,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":3290.47,"end":3292.47,"text":"謝謝黃次長"},{"start":3292.34,"end":3294.34,"text":"那麼其餘練習機關"},{"start":3294.34,"end":3296.34,"text":"還有沒有一個口頭報告或補充的"},{"start":3298.22,"end":3300.22,"text":"沒有的話那麼我們機關代表就報告完畢"},{"start":3300.22,"end":3302.22,"text":"相關書面內容請各位參閱"},{"start":3302.22,"end":3304.22,"text":"並列入公報記錄"},{"start":3304.22,"end":3306.22,"text":"那我們現在就開始進行詢答"},{"start":3306.22,"end":3308.22,"text":"那本會委員詢答的時間為8分鐘"},{"start":3308.22,"end":3310.22,"text":"必要的時候得延長2分鐘"},{"start":3310.22,"end":3312.22,"text":"非本會委員詢答的時間為5分鐘"},{"start":3312.22,"end":3314.22,"text":"並不再延長"},{"start":3314.22,"end":3316.22,"text":"那我們上午10點30分"},{"start":3316.22,"end":3318.22,"text":"就截止發言登記"},{"start":3318.22,"end":3320.22,"text":"那我們現在先請登記第一位的"},{"start":3320.22,"end":3322.22,"text":"吳宗憲委員來進行詢答"},{"start":3326.97,"end":3328.97,"text":"謝謝主席我們麻煩司法院"},{"start":3330.06,"end":3332.06,"text":"請高民署長"},{"start":3332.51,"end":3334.51,"text":"好"},{"start":3335.05,"end":3337.05,"text":"吳部長我現在先肯定"},{"start":3337.05,"end":3339.05,"text":"司法院的一件事情就是你們的報告"},{"start":3339.05,"end":3341.05,"text":"有明確的支持我提出來的"},{"start":3341.05,"end":3343.05,"text":"被害影響陳述"},{"start":3343.05,"end":3345.05,"text":"就是當法院"},{"start":3345.05,"end":3347.05,"text":"在決定這個要判被告"},{"start":3347.05,"end":3349.05,"text":"奪狀之前應該要給被害人"},{"start":3349.05,"end":3351.05,"text":"一個說出他心裡話的機會"},{"start":3351.05,"end":3353.05,"text":"讓他說清楚"},{"start":3353.05,"end":3355.05,"text":"這個犯罪對我的心理家庭"},{"start":3355.05,"end":3357.05,"text":"對我的身體造成了"},{"start":3357.05,"end":3359.05,"text":"人身什麼樣重大的影響"},{"start":3359.05,"end":3361.05,"text":"要讓他說清楚"},{"start":3361.05,"end":3363.05,"text":"我在這邊要先說一個就是"},{"start":3363.05,"end":3365.05,"text":"我從當檢察官到當局長"},{"start":3365.05,"end":3367.05,"text":"到現在當立委"},{"start":3367.05,"end":3369.05,"text":"我長期在第一線接觸跟陪伴"},{"start":3369.05,"end":3371.05,"text":"這些被害人的家屬"},{"start":3371.05,"end":3373.05,"text":"那有些家屬"},{"start":3373.05,"end":3375.05,"text":"家庭是暴力的被害者"},{"start":3375.05,"end":3377.05,"text":"有些是像殺人的重案的"},{"start":3377.05,"end":3379.05,"text":"那個遺屬他們常常都會說"},{"start":3379.05,"end":3381.05,"text":"一句話他們希望的"},{"start":3381.53,"end":3383.53,"text":"第一個他們希望法官"},{"start":3383.53,"end":3385.53,"text":"好好的聽他把話說完"},{"start":3385.53,"end":3387.53,"text":"但是他們常常得不到"},{"start":3387.53,"end":3389.53,"text":"在法庭上得不到這個機會"},{"start":3389.53,"end":3391.53,"text":"還有他說他們知道法官"},{"start":3391.53,"end":3393.53,"text":"不一定會按照他們想的去判"},{"start":3393.53,"end":3395.53,"text":"但是至少法官能夠知道"},{"start":3395.53,"end":3397.53,"text":"我為什麼心裡這麼痛"},{"start":3397.53,"end":3399.53,"text":"我為什麼過不了這個坎"},{"start":3399.48,"end":3401.48,"text":"還有人說我不怕開庭"},{"start":3401.48,"end":3403.48,"text":"但是我怕再遇到殺人犯"},{"start":3403.48,"end":3405.48,"text":"我不想再遇到"},{"start":3405.48,"end":3407.48,"text":"殺人犯或他的律師"},{"start":3407.48,"end":3409.48,"text":"在法庭上面然後用質疑"},{"start":3409.48,"end":3411.48,"text":"用逼問的態度來對待他們"},{"start":3411.48,"end":3413.48,"text":"所以我的草案其實"},{"start":3413.48,"end":3415.48,"text":"就在回應這些"},{"start":3415.67,"end":3417.67,"text":"這些被害人他們最深層的需求"},{"start":3417.67,"end":3419.67,"text":"那還有就是"},{"start":3421.08,"end":3423.08,"text":"我希望能夠讓被害人"},{"start":3423.08,"end":3425.08,"text":"能夠真正的說話"},{"start":3425.08,"end":3427.08,"text":"不是說用疏狀也不是說用檢察官轉述"},{"start":3427.08,"end":3429.08,"text":"那我也希望"},{"start":3429.08,"end":3431.08,"text":"法院必須認真的回應這些"},{"start":3431.08,"end":3433.08,"text":"被害人他們的論述"},{"start":3433.08,"end":3435.08,"text":"那我希望呢被害人在法庭上"},{"start":3435.08,"end":3437.08,"text":"不是只是一個旁觀者"},{"start":3437.08,"end":3439.08,"text":"他們是真正能夠參與"},{"start":3439.08,"end":3441.08,"text":"到這個判決裡面的人"},{"start":3441.08,"end":3443.08,"text":"我們必須提升他的權益"},{"start":3443.08,"end":3445.08,"text":"所以我修法的核心就是"},{"start":3445.08,"end":3447.08,"text":"被害人他要的不是只是"},{"start":3447.08,"end":3449.08,"text":"到法庭上面宣洩他的情緒"},{"start":3449.08,"end":3451.08,"text":"而是有三件事"},{"start":3451.08,"end":3453.08,"text":"安全被聽見還有被尊重"},{"start":3453.08,"end":3455.08,"text":"我希望他們在法庭上"},{"start":3455.08,"end":3457.08,"text":"能夠得到這樣的保障"},{"start":3457.08,"end":3459.08,"text":"安全就是除了人身安全之外"},{"start":3459.08,"end":3461.08,"text":"不要再被二次傷害"},{"start":3461.08,"end":3463.08,"text":"被聽見就是他們心裡的想法"},{"start":3463.08,"end":3465.08,"text":"他們的這些經歷他們心裡的痛"},{"start":3465.08,"end":3467.08,"text":"法官必須要聽到"},{"start":3467.08,"end":3469.08,"text":"而且有義務聆聽"},{"start":3469.08,"end":3471.08,"text":"而且有義務回應"},{"start":3471.08,"end":3473.08,"text":"被尊重是法院必須用判決告訴他"},{"start":3473.08,"end":3475.08,"text":"你說的東西"},{"start":3475.08,"end":3477.08,"text":"我有沒有採納我採納"},{"start":3477.08,"end":3479.08,"text":"如果不採納的理由是什麼"},{"start":3479.08,"end":3481.08,"text":"必須要讓當事人被害人知道"},{"start":3481.08,"end":3483.08,"text":"所以今天既然被"},{"start":3483.08,"end":3485.08,"text":"那個市法院支持我的這個提案"},{"start":3485.08,"end":3487.08,"text":"所以我要說的就是"},{"start":3487.08,"end":3489.08,"text":"我希望完成這個配套"},{"start":3489.08,"end":3491.08,"text":"我讓被害人他能夠完整的說完"},{"start":3491.08,"end":3493.08,"text":"完整的被聽見"},{"start":3493.08,"end":3495.08,"text":"而且能夠論述的清楚"},{"start":3495.08,"end":3497.08,"text":"那這個配套其實有兩個重點"},{"start":3497.08,"end":3499.08,"text":"第一個是隱私權的保護"},{"start":3499.08,"end":3501.08,"text":"第二個是陪同權"},{"start":3501.08,"end":3503.08,"text":"我想上個月我在質詢的時候"},{"start":3503.08,"end":3505.08,"text":"我曾經有問到幾個東西"},{"start":3505.08,"end":3507.08,"text":"就是被害人主動陳述的時候"},{"start":3507.08,"end":3509.08,"text":"陪同制度可不可以明文"},{"start":3509.08,"end":3511.08,"text":"還有各支如何強化"},{"start":3511.08,"end":3513.08,"text":"那請問一下"},{"start":3513.08,"end":3515.08,"text":"那個秘書長"},{"start":3515.08,"end":3517.08,"text":"這個部分你們有沒有"},{"start":3517.08,"end":3519.08,"text":"目前有沒有具體的作為或想法"},{"start":3519.08,"end":3521.08,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":3521.08,"end":3523.08,"text":"這個關於這個隱私的保護"},{"start":3523.08,"end":3525.08,"text":"還有這個陪同的部分"},{"start":3525.08,"end":3527.08,"text":"現行法都已經有規定"},{"start":3527.08,"end":3529.08,"text":"而且我們也有關於"},{"start":3529.08,"end":3531.08,"text":"醫情注意事項"},{"start":3531.08,"end":3533.08,"text":"更要求各法院"},{"start":3533.08,"end":3535.08,"text":"尤其剛剛委員所提到的"},{"start":3535.08,"end":3537.08,"text":"當被害人不想碰到某些人"},{"start":3537.08,"end":3539.08,"text":"要怎麼去遮蔽"},{"start":3539.08,"end":3541.08,"text":"怎麼去隔離"},{"start":3541.08,"end":3543.08,"text":"這個我們都有規定"},{"start":3543.08,"end":3545.08,"text":"要各法院做到"},{"start":3545.08,"end":3547.08,"text":"那法律有規定"},{"start":3547.08,"end":3549.08,"text":"那關於剛剛陪同的"},{"start":3549.08,"end":3551.08,"text":"不只是他的親屬可以陪同"},{"start":3551.08,"end":3553.08,"text":"他甚至可以有特定的"},{"start":3553.08,"end":3555.08,"text":"這個要求"},{"start":3555.08,"end":3557.08,"text":"心理師社公司都可以來陪同"},{"start":3557.08,"end":3559.08,"text":"到庭"},{"start":3559.08,"end":3561.08,"text":"謝謝秘書長"},{"start":3561.08,"end":3563.08,"text":"我先講一個"},{"start":3563.08,"end":3565.08,"text":"實務上面法律規定以及說到"},{"start":3565.08,"end":3567.08,"text":"跟法官做到"},{"start":3567.08,"end":3569.08,"text":"其實還有滿大的一段差距"},{"start":3569.08,"end":3571.08,"text":"那我跟你說為什麼"},{"start":3571.08,"end":3573.08,"text":"其實我有看過你們回應王世堅委員"},{"start":3573.08,"end":3575.08,"text":"對各支保護的這個個案裡面"},{"start":3575.08,"end":3577.08,"text":"你說現行法有啊"},{"start":3577.08,"end":3579.08,"text":"就像您剛剛說的"},{"start":3579.08,"end":3581.08,"text":"譬如說248條之三"},{"start":3581.08,"end":3583.08,"text":"或者是271條之二"},{"start":3583.08,"end":3585.08,"text":"其實都有規範的很清楚"},{"start":3585.08,"end":3587.08,"text":"要求保護隱私"},{"start":3587.08,"end":3589.08,"text":"包括去識別化這個都有"},{"start":3587.44,"end":3589.44,"text":"真的有被保護到嗎"},{"start":3589.44,"end":3591.44,"text":"上個會期我在校園割喉案的時候"},{"start":3591.44,"end":3593.44,"text":"我當時也有質詢過您"},{"start":3593.44,"end":3595.44,"text":"楊爸爸就是被害人"},{"start":3595.44,"end":3597.44,"text":"死者的爸爸他公開說"},{"start":3597.44,"end":3599.44,"text":"他說整個訴訟裡面"},{"start":3599.44,"end":3601.44,"text":"我家的住址在哪裡我上班在哪裡"},{"start":3601.44,"end":3603.44,"text":"全部都被攤開了"},{"start":3603.44,"end":3605.44,"text":"所以法律有規定"},{"start":3605.44,"end":3607.44,"text":"跟實務有沒有做到其實很大的一段差距"},{"start":3607.44,"end":3609.44,"text":"現在造成什麼"},{"start":3609.44,"end":3611.44,"text":"一個人失去了兒子"},{"start":3612.01,"end":3614.01,"text":"這個爸爸每天在想"},{"start":3614.01,"end":3616.01,"text":"殺害我兒子的人他今天會不會"},{"start":3616.01,"end":3618.01,"text":"跑到我家來殺我結果"},{"start":3618.01,"end":3620.01,"text":"我們看到的是連他的電話"},{"start":3620.01,"end":3622.01,"text":"工作地點全部都曝光"},{"start":3622.69,"end":3624.69,"text":"那這個時候就不對啦"},{"start":3624.69,"end":3626.69,"text":"你說法律有規定或者是"},{"start":3626.69,"end":3628.69,"text":"有再三的教育法官"},{"start":3628.69,"end":3630.69,"text":"但是我們看到的結論是這樣"},{"start":3630.69,"end":3632.69,"text":"是不是應該分券處理"},{"start":3632.69,"end":3634.69,"text":"是不是應該把很多東西"},{"start":3634.69,"end":3636.69,"text":"要把它隱匿掉之後"},{"start":3636.69,"end":3638.69,"text":"你才能夠讓律師越券"},{"start":3638.69,"end":3640.69,"text":"這個是我一直以來我想要"},{"start":3639.53,"end":3641.53,"text":"強調的部分還有你們對國民法官"},{"start":3641.53,"end":3643.53,"text":"你們保護非常非常的嚴謹"},{"start":3643.53,"end":3645.53,"text":"我想這個沒有問題"},{"start":3645.53,"end":3647.53,"text":"國民法官的所有資料大家都查不到"},{"start":3647.53,"end":3649.53,"text":"但是家暴的被害人"},{"start":3649.53,"end":3651.53,"text":"性侵的被害人"},{"start":3651.53,"end":3653.53,"text":"跟騷的被害人組織犯罪的被害人"},{"start":3653.53,"end":3655.53,"text":"他們被報復的風險難道"},{"start":3655.53,"end":3657.53,"text":"會低於這些國民法官嗎"},{"start":3657.53,"end":3659.53,"text":"我想他們被報復風險可能"},{"start":3659.53,"end":3661.53,"text":"更高但是我們對他的"},{"start":3661.53,"end":3663.53,"text":"保障卻不夠這個部分"},{"start":3663.53,"end":3665.53,"text":"司法院如果說"},{"start":3665.53,"end":3667.53,"text":"有法律規定了但是實務"},{"start":3667.53,"end":3669.53,"text":"這個就是這樣的顯現出來"},{"start":3669.53,"end":3671.53,"text":"這個就變成怠惰"},{"start":3671.53,"end":3673.53,"text":"所以民主黨再繼續努力改善好不好"},{"start":3673.53,"end":3675.53,"text":"可以嗎你可以承諾我們嗎"},{"start":3675.53,"end":3677.53,"text":"跟委員報告那個楊爸爸那一件"},{"start":3677.53,"end":3679.53,"text":"真的是我們自己在"},{"start":3679.53,"end":3681.53,"text":"那是民事判決的疏失"},{"start":3681.53,"end":3683.53,"text":"我們一直注重刑事"},{"start":3683.53,"end":3685.53,"text":"一直注重刑事判決"},{"start":3685.53,"end":3687.53,"text":"結果提起損害賠償"},{"start":3687.53,"end":3689.53,"text":"民事判決的疏失"},{"start":3689.53,"end":3691.53,"text":"但是民主黨"},{"start":3691.53,"end":3693.53,"text":"我們一定要改過來"},{"start":3693.53,"end":3695.53,"text":"民眾不懂刑事民事"},{"start":3695.53,"end":3697.53,"text":"他只知道我東西被公開"},{"start":3697.53,"end":3699.53,"text":"好嗎民主黨這部分"},{"start":3699.53,"end":3701.53,"text":"麻煩你一定要處理好"},{"start":3701.53,"end":3703.53,"text":"好那民主黨目前我國有陪同制度"},{"start":3703.53,"end":3705.53,"text":"對不對271條之3"},{"start":3705.53,"end":3707.53,"text":"有陪同制度嘛但是呢"},{"start":3707.53,"end":3709.53,"text":"我們現行的陪同制度"},{"start":3709.53,"end":3711.53,"text":"好像只是留一個刑事"},{"start":3711.53,"end":3713.53,"text":"其實我一直很希望就是說"},{"start":3713.53,"end":3715.53,"text":"我們在案件處理的時候"},{"start":3715.53,"end":3717.53,"text":"我們能夠讓被害人自己站起來"},{"start":3717.53,"end":3719.53,"text":"主動的把犯罪對他造成的影響"},{"start":3719.53,"end":3721.53,"text":"能夠把他說出來"},{"start":3721.53,"end":3723.53,"text":"我想這個才是重點像土城"},{"start":3723.53,"end":3725.53,"text":"那個獨家壯士警察的案子"},{"start":3726.84,"end":3728.84,"text":"家屬是在法庭上面下跪"},{"start":3728.84,"end":3730.84,"text":"要求法官判死刑"},{"start":3730.84,"end":3732.84,"text":"然後我們剛剛那個那個"},{"start":3732.84,"end":3734.84,"text":"講了那個"},{"start":3734.15,"end":3736.15,"text":"那個這個案子這個警察的爸爸"},{"start":3736.15,"end":3738.15,"text":"那個劉爸爸"},{"start":3738.15,"end":3740.15,"text":"他說一個人死亡"},{"start":3740.15,"end":3742.15,"text":"不是只有一個人死亡"},{"start":3742.15,"end":3744.15,"text":"他的家庭也毀了"},{"start":3744.15,"end":3746.15,"text":"他的爸爸媽媽的家庭"},{"start":3746.15,"end":3748.15,"text":"也毀了"},{"start":3748.15,"end":3750.15,"text":"然後這個死者他的太太的"},{"start":3750.15,"end":3752.15,"text":"爸媽那邊岳父岳母的家庭"},{"start":3752.15,"end":3754.15,"text":"也都毀了所以他毀的是"},{"start":3754.15,"end":3756.15,"text":"好幾個家庭啊然後台南"},{"start":3756.15,"end":3758.15,"text":"那個有一個殺雙兩個警察"},{"start":3758.15,"end":3760.15,"text":"被殺死那個屠民城跟曹瑞傑"},{"start":3760.15,"end":3762.15,"text":"那個案子他的那個姐姐"},{"start":3762.15,"end":3764.15,"text":"每一次到法院來他都說"},{"start":3764.15,"end":3766.15,"text":"好像在夢裡面一樣每一分鐘"},{"start":3766.15,"end":3768.15,"text":"他都想要昏倒他都可能會昏倒"},{"start":3768.15,"end":3770.15,"text":"在現場所以我今天要講的是"},{"start":3770.15,"end":3772.15,"text":"訴訟對於這些被害人"},{"start":3772.15,"end":3774.15,"text":"他長期的承受的壓力"},{"start":3774.15,"end":3776.15,"text":"是非常大所以我才會認為說"},{"start":3776.15,"end":3778.15,"text":"這個陪同制度非常的重要"},{"start":3778.15,"end":3780.15,"text":"所以你看嘛到底被害人"},{"start":3780.15,"end":3782.15,"text":"陳述到一半情緒崩潰可不可以暫停"},{"start":3782.15,"end":3784.15,"text":"安全有安全意義可不可以遠距"},{"start":3784.15,"end":3786.15,"text":"心理思設功能不能夠"},{"start":3786.15,"end":3788.15,"text":"坐在旁邊真正的給予支持"},{"start":3788.15,"end":3790.15,"text":"範寶要怎麼銜接重大"},{"start":3790.15,"end":3792.15,"text":"案件在開庭之前"},{"start":3792.15,"end":3794.15,"text":"有沒有人告訴家屬接下來的程序"},{"start":3794.15,"end":3796.15,"text":"會怎麼走還有有沒有人協助"},{"start":3796.15,"end":3798.15,"text":"他們整理過往的"},{"start":3798.15,"end":3800.15,"text":"主張而不是要求法官"},{"start":3800.15,"end":3802.15,"text":"每一次每一次都開庭要請"},{"start":3802.15,"end":3804.15,"text":"他一再的陳述你知道那個馬大生"},{"start":3804.15,"end":3806.15,"text":"被殺案他的媽媽每次來"},{"start":3806.15,"end":3808.15,"text":"台灣結果"},{"start":3808.15,"end":3810.15,"text":"法官要他一次一次"},{"start":3810.15,"end":3812.15,"text":"一次的論述他女兒這個"},{"start":3812.15,"end":3814.15,"text":"被強姦殺害的過程"},{"start":3814.84,"end":3816.84,"text":"這個對父母的"},{"start":3817.49,"end":3819.49,"text":"比殺了他還痛苦啊"},{"start":3819.49,"end":3821.49,"text":"所以"},{"start":3820.56,"end":3822.56,"text":"這樣的制度有問題嘛"},{"start":3822.56,"end":3824.56,"text":"你譬如說你的這個陳述是不是一次"},{"start":3824.56,"end":3826.56,"text":"有人整理完畢之後法官不用再"},{"start":3826.56,"end":3828.56,"text":"一再的重複他可能需要就"},{"start":3828.56,"end":3830.56,"text":"犯罪事實調查沒有清楚的部分"},{"start":3830.56,"end":3832.56,"text":"再次詢問而不需要就"},{"start":3832.56,"end":3834.56,"text":"診斷的重新在法庭"},{"start":3834.56,"end":3836.56,"text":"上面公開再來所以我們有時候"},{"start":3836.56,"end":3838.56,"text":"一直講我國刑事訴訟制度為什麼"},{"start":3838.56,"end":3840.56,"text":"一定要用複審制為什麼不用"},{"start":3840.56,"end":3842.56,"text":"續審制你複審制"},{"start":3842.56,"end":3844.56,"text":"搞得所有東西重新"},{"start":3844.56,"end":3846.56,"text":"再來一次所有制度重新再來一次"},{"start":3846.56,"end":3848.56,"text":"結果最嚴謹的一審的"},{"start":3848.56,"end":3850.56,"text":"交互結論結果你二審你反而"},{"start":3850.56,"end":3852.56,"text":"用沒有像一審那麼嚴謹的"},{"start":3852.56,"end":3854.56,"text":"制度要去又可以去否決"},{"start":3854.56,"end":3856.56,"text":"一審的判決"},{"start":3856.56,"end":3858.56,"text":"這就是我其實我從第一年當立委"},{"start":3858.56,"end":3860.56,"text":"我就一直在說為什麼我國刑事訴訟"},{"start":3860.56,"end":3862.56,"text":"不走向續審制而是走"},{"start":3862.56,"end":3864.56,"text":"複審制非常非常"},{"start":3864.56,"end":3866.56,"text":"感謝委員願意支持二審"},{"start":3866.56,"end":3868.56,"text":"走向續審制其實剛委員所"},{"start":3868.56,"end":3870.56,"text":"提到的就因為複審制"},{"start":3870.56,"end":3872.56,"text":"在二審所造成事實"},{"start":3872.56,"end":3874.56,"text":"重複的調查那當然"},{"start":3874.56,"end":3876.56,"text":"法官在訴訟指揮的時候"},{"start":3876.56,"end":3878.56,"text":"可能不夠體貼我必須要這樣"},{"start":3878.56,"end":3880.56,"text":"講那有些"},{"start":3880.56,"end":3882.56,"text":"尤其這一次像剛委員所說"},{"start":3882.56,"end":3884.56,"text":"的這個陪同到場"},{"start":3884.56,"end":3886.56,"text":"這個被害人他"},{"start":3886.56,"end":3888.56,"text":"老實說我覺得被害人"},{"start":3888.56,"end":3890.56,"text":"並不是很清楚"},{"start":3890.56,"end":3892.56,"text":"因為我相信沒有人希望被害"},{"start":3892.56,"end":3894.56,"text":"沒有人知道這個規定"},{"start":3894.56,"end":3896.56,"text":"所以這也是我們一直要再要求"},{"start":3896.56,"end":3898.56,"text":"法院關於被害人"},{"start":3898.56,"end":3900.56,"text":"這些權利務必要"},{"start":3900.56,"end":3902.56,"text":"告訴清楚這個是我們"},{"start":3902.56,"end":3904.56,"text":"一直努力的方向"},{"start":3904.56,"end":3906.56,"text":"那這個也是我的主軸我要跟你說的"},{"start":3906.56,"end":3908.56,"text":"這是我最大的關鍵就是被害人"},{"start":3908.56,"end":3910.56,"text":"把最痛的事情說完之後"},{"start":3910.56,"end":3912.56,"text":"法院有義務"},{"start":3912.56,"end":3914.56,"text":"要用判決告訴他"},{"start":3914.56,"end":3916.56,"text":"你的話我聽到了我的考量"},{"start":3916.56,"end":3918.56,"text":"是什麼你心裡的痛我聽到了"},{"start":3918.56,"end":3920.56,"text":"我給你的回應是什麼"},{"start":3920.56,"end":3922.56,"text":"而不是永遠就是那個罐頭式的用語"},{"start":3922.56,"end":3924.56,"text":"被害人身心受創慎重"},{"start":3924.56,"end":3926.56,"text":"那個沒有用"},{"start":3926.56,"end":3928.56,"text":"那個當事人沒有感覺"},{"start":3928.56,"end":3930.56,"text":"所以我要讓被害人的"},{"start":3930.56,"end":3932.56,"text":"訴訟參與制度不是可以"},{"start":3932.56,"end":3934.56,"text":"參與而已我是要讓他"},{"start":3934.56,"end":3936.56,"text":"真的有安全有尊嚴的"},{"start":3936.56,"end":3938.56,"text":"能夠完整的參與"},{"start":3938.56,"end":3940.56,"text":"這是我希望的"},{"start":3940.56,"end":3942.56,"text":"那其實你想還有一個"},{"start":3942.56,"end":3944.56,"text":"我們常常在講施多講那個女教師"},{"start":3944.56,"end":3946.56,"text":"被殺害的案子"},{"start":3946.56,"end":3948.56,"text":"那個教授的太太她被強姦殺人"},{"start":3948.56,"end":3950.56,"text":"被殺害"},{"start":3950.23,"end":3952.23,"text":"張教授這到"},{"start":3952.23,"end":3954.23,"text":"更市審改判無期徒刑"},{"start":3954.23,"end":3956.23,"text":"他一路走下來十年"},{"start":3956.23,"end":3958.23,"text":"他說他看到被告永遠是三個律師"},{"start":3958.2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},{"start":4158.71,"end":4160.71,"text":"書類我都寫過案件我也審理過"},{"start":4160.71,"end":4162.71,"text":"我知道這個要很解決"},{"start":4162.71,"end":4164.71,"text":"很容易所以我不認為這是一個"},{"start":4164.71,"end":4166.71,"text":"回覆翁曉琳委員的想法"},{"start":4166.71,"end":4168.71,"text":"跟委員報告因為他在判決"},{"start":4168.71,"end":4170.71,"text":"裡面判決理由"},{"start":4170.71,"end":4172.71,"text":"要寫你要去"},{"start":4172.71,"end":4174.71,"text":"世別化跟委員報告跟各位委員報告"},{"start":4174.71,"end":4176.71,"text":"我們常常說去世別化"},{"start":4176.71,"end":4178.71,"text":"很容易不容易"},{"start":4178.71,"end":4180.71,"text":"然後另外一個現在你只要"},{"start":4180.71,"end":4182.71,"text":"前因後果就可以"},{"start":4182.75,"end":4184.75,"text":"看出所有內容所以我們是建議說"},{"start":4184.75,"end":4186.75,"text":"當然法官在寫"},{"start":4186.75,"end":4188.75,"text":"有罪判決"},{"start":4188.75,"end":4190.75,"text":"在量刑論述的時候"},{"start":4190.75,"end":4192.75,"text":"一定要聽取"},{"start":4192.75,"end":4194.75,"text":"被害人的意見被害人"},{"start":4194.75,"end":4196.75,"text":"在陳述有重要的地方"},{"start":4196.75,"end":4198.75,"text":"一定要寫在判決裡面"},{"start":4198.75,"end":4200.75,"text":"但是我們是說"},{"start":4200.75,"end":4202.75,"text":"委員所提到的是要完全的陳述"},{"start":4202.75,"end":4204.75,"text":"或者是應該要陳述"},{"start":4204.75,"end":4206.75,"text":"可能我們稍微要保守一點"},{"start":4206.75,"end":4208.75,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":4208.75,"end":4210.75,"text":"我們只要上過世好院裁判書類檢索系統"},{"start":4210.75,"end":4212.75,"text":"現在的判決很多地方都是圈圈圈"},{"start":4212.75,"end":4214.75,"text":"一團都是圈"},{"start":4214.75,"end":4216.75,"text":"它並沒有文字的顯示"},{"start":4216.75,"end":4218.75,"text":"所以一個判決書"},{"start":4218.75,"end":4220.75,"text":"完整的描述的判決書是"},{"start":4220.75,"end":4222.75,"text":"當事人可以拿到"},{"start":4222.75,"end":4224.75,"text":"但是外面拿不到"},{"start":4224.75,"end":4226.75,"text":"外面看到的是網路上面的那個"},{"start":4226.75,"end":4228.75,"text":"已經那個把它去世別化"},{"start":4228.75,"end":4230.75,"text":"後的案子"},{"start":4230.75,"end":4232.75,"text":"所以我認為這個東西不是問題"},{"start":4232.75,"end":4234.75,"text":"我希望說你們可以再思考"},{"start":4234.75,"end":4236.75,"text":"而不是用回翁小林委員的那樣子就回"},{"start":4236.75,"end":4238.75,"text":"我覺得我從實務上面來看"},{"start":4238.75,"end":4240.75,"text":"我認為說"},{"start":4239.84,"end":4241.84,"text":"這樣的給案子回應是合理的"},{"start":4241.84,"end":4243.84,"text":"好"},{"start":4243.84,"end":4245.84,"text":"我希望就是因為實驗關係"},{"start":4245.84,"end":4247.84,"text":"我希望世好院能夠給幾個承諾"},{"start":4249.19,"end":4251.19,"text":"我希望好兩件事情"},{"start":4251.19,"end":4253.19,"text":"第一個三個月內提出完整的被害人跟訴訟參與人"},{"start":4253.19,"end":4255.19,"text":"各支還有安全保護規範"},{"start":4255.19,"end":4257.19,"text":"內容我就直接"},{"start":4257.19,"end":4259.19,"text":"秀在PTT上面我就不再論述"},{"start":4259.19,"end":4261.19,"text":"還有第二個三個月內"},{"start":4261.19,"end":4263.19,"text":"你要"},{"start":4263.19,"end":4265.19,"text":"那個被害影響陳述陪同"},{"start":4265.19,"end":4267.19,"text":"跟支持機制"},{"start":4267.19,"end":4269.19,"text":"我也希望你們提出來"},{"start":4269.19,"end":4271.19,"text":"這兩個可以嗎"},{"start":4270.06,"end":4272.06,"text":"可以喔好那謝謝喔"},{"start":4272.06,"end":4274.06,"text":"最後30秒我講一個"},{"start":4274.06,"end":4276.06,"text":"我今天其實講五個家庭"},{"start":4277.29,"end":4279.29,"text":"我一路以來這段時間"},{"start":4279.29,"end":4281.29,"text":"我看到這五個案子裡面"},{"start":4281.29,"end":4283.29,"text":"他顯露出我國司法"},{"start":4283.29,"end":4285.29,"text":"有非常非常多的問題"},{"start":4285.29,"end":4287.29,"text":"尤其是對於家屬"},{"start":4287.29,"end":4289.29,"text":"的那種折磨"},{"start":4288.8,"end":4290.8,"text":"施多獎女教師案"},{"start":4291.5,"end":4293.5,"text":"的那個張教授"},{"start":4293.5,"end":4295.5,"text":"他走了十年他還在問說"},{"start":4295.5,"end":4297.5,"text":"我當初在法庭上面的聲音"},{"start":4297.5,"end":4299.5,"text":"判決裡面到底寫到哪裡去了"},{"start":4299.5,"end":4301.5,"text":"他看不到"},{"start":4301.5,"end":4303.5,"text":"他講出他心裡的痛"},{"start":4303.5,"end":4305.5,"text":"他在判決看不到"},{"start":4305.5,"end":4307.5,"text":"馬來西亞女大生的媽媽"},{"start":4307.5,"end":4309.5,"text":"他跨海來台一次次的講"},{"start":4309.5,"end":4311.5,"text":"他失去唯一女兒的痛"},{"start":4311.5,"end":4313.5,"text":"我們都有小孩嘛"},{"start":4313.5,"end":4315.5,"text":"他跌倒破一個小洞"},{"start":4315.5,"end":4317.5,"text":"我就擔心得半死了"},{"start":4317.5,"end":4319.5,"text":"就他女兒被人家殺了"},{"start":4319.5,"end":4321.5,"text":"那麼多被人家勒死"},{"start":4321.5,"end":4323.5,"text":"有的被殺了很多刀"},{"start":4323.5,"end":4325.5,"text":"他心裡的痛我們必須感同身受"},{"start":4326.33,"end":4328.33,"text":"還有土城獨家案"},{"start":4328.33,"end":4330.33,"text":"殺警案的那個家屬"},{"start":4330.33,"end":4332.33,"text":"在法院裡面跪下來對法官下跪"},{"start":4332.33,"end":4336.33,"text":"希望法官真正理解一個犯罪"},{"start":4336.33,"end":4338.33,"text":"他摧毀多少人的人生"},{"start":4338.33,"end":4340.33,"text":"跟多少家庭"},{"start":4340.33,"end":4342.33,"text":"而不是只有一條人命"},{"start":4342.33,"end":4344.33,"text":"失去是"},{"start":4344.33,"end":4346.33,"text":"他周邊的家人的人生"},{"start":4346.33,"end":4348.33,"text":"都毀了法官"},{"start":4348.33,"end":4350.33,"text":"有沒有去想到這個點"},{"start":4352.25,"end":4354.25,"text":"校園割警案的那個爸爸"},{"start":4354.25,"end":4356.25,"text":"他失去兒子之後"},{"start":4356.25,"end":4358.25,"text":"他還要擔心"},{"start":4358.25,"end":4360.25,"text":"殺他孩子的人"},{"start":4360.25,"end":4362.25,"text":"會不會跑來殺他"},{"star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:4577.4,"end":4578.4,"text":"因為加班本來就是"},{"start":4578.4,"end":4579.4,"text":"好這份不算數對不對"},{"start":4579.4,"end":4580.4,"text":"不算數"},{"start":4580.4,"end":4582.4,"text":"簽了被迫簽了不算數"},{"start":4582.91,"end":4584.91,"text":"那你會後去了解一下好嗎"},{"start":4584.91,"end":4585.91,"text":"好"},{"start":4585.91,"end":4586.91,"text":"那這樣好了會後你去了解一下"},{"start":4586.91,"end":4587.91,"text":"那一周內"},{"start":4587.91,"end":4590.91,"text":"你可不可以發函全台的這個監獄所"},{"start":4590.91,"end":4591.91,"text":"各監獄所"},{"start":4591.91,"end":4593.91,"text":"不得用口機來強迫"},{"start":4595.84,"end":4597.84,"text":"這樣可以嗎這樣合理嗎"},{"start":4597.84,"end":4599.84,"text":"我們提醒各監所注意這一點"},{"start":4599.84,"end":4600.84,"text":"不得被強迫"},{"start":4600.84,"end":4601.84,"text":"一周內你發文"},{"start":4601.84,"end":4602.84,"text":"就是說不得用"},{"start":4602.84,"end":4604.84,"text":"那你把副本也給我可以嗎"},{"start":4604.84,"end":4605.84,"text":"我們來處理"},{"start":4606.53,"end":4608.53,"text":"那次長上上周"},{"start":4608.53,"end":4609.53,"text":"我有問這個司法院秘書長"},{"start":4609.53,"end":4612.53,"text":"就是說跟法務部的檢察司"},{"start":4612.53,"end":4613.53,"text":"在法院組織法"},{"start":4613.53,"end":4616.53,"text":"有關這個司法院的修正草案中"},{"start":4616.53,"end":4618.53,"text":"其實他只是把書記官跟法官"},{"start":4618.53,"end":4621.53,"text":"在高院跟地院間挪來挪去"},{"start":4621.53,"end":4622.53,"text":"那為什麼會這樣"},{"start":4622.53,"end":4625.53,"text":"就是有一個總員額沒有增加"},{"start":4625.53,"end":4628.53,"text":"那地檢署的基本狀況也是一樣的"},{"start":4628.53,"end":4630.53,"text":"那高秘書長說"},{"start":4630.53,"end":4631.53,"text":"他最後說出來"},{"start":4631.53,"end":4633.53,"text":"就受限於總員額法"},{"start":4633.53,"end":4636.53,"text":"所以總員額法本身是一個魔咒"},{"start":4637.31,"end":4639.31,"text":"那現在很多人力的問題"},{"start":4639.31,"end":4641.31,"text":"大概會受到這個影響"},{"start":4641.31,"end":4643.31,"text":"那上回總員法的修法"},{"start":4643.31,"end":4644.31,"text":"你還記得在什麼時候嗎"},{"start":4645.57,"end":4647.57,"text":"民國108年"},{"start":4647.57,"end":4649.57,"text":"那當時為什麼會有這個修法"},{"start":4649.57,"end":4651.57,"text":"是因為這個司法國事會議"},{"start":4651.57,"end":4653.57,"text":"司改國事會議的結論"},{"start":4653.57,"end":4655.57,"text":"所以就提高了這個司法院的員額"},{"start":4655.57,"end":4658.57,"text":"他是從13900人提高到15000人"},{"start":4658.57,"end":4660.57,"text":"但是法務部的部分"},{"start":4660.57,"end":4662.57,"text":"從員額法存在"},{"start":4662.57,"end":4663.57,"text":"那是民國99年"},{"start":4663.57,"end":4666.57,"text":"16年來一直維持6900人"},{"start":4666.57,"end":4668.57,"text":"都沒有修改"},{"start":4668.57,"end":4671.57,"text":"所以次長我希望你為基層著想"},{"start":4671.57,"end":4673.57,"text":"這個監所管理員的介護筆"},{"start":4674.42,"end":4675.42,"text":"非常的高"},{"start":4675.42,"end":4677.42,"text":"以台北看守所來說"},{"start":4677.42,"end":4680.42,"text":"今年6月收容人有3390人"},{"start":4680.42,"end":4683.42,"text":"可是他們的介護人力才248人"},{"start":4683.42,"end":4685.42,"text":"介護筆是1比13"},{"start":4686.96,"end":4688.96,"text":"大家加班加到快發黃了"},{"start":4688.96,"end":4690.96,"text":"這個次長總員額法是"},{"start":4690.96,"end":4692.96,"text":"你也覺得是你的魔咒嗎"},{"start":4692.96,"end":4693.96,"text":"各位報告"},{"start":4693.96,"end":4695.96,"text":"委員這個PPT上所列的"},{"start":4695.96,"end":4697.96,"text":"這6900人事實上是我們法務部"},{"start":4697.96,"end":4700.96,"text":"所屬的檢查機關的總員額的上限"},{"start":4700.96,"end":4702.96,"text":"那委員關心的關監所的部分"},{"start":4702.96,"end":4704.96,"text":"他其實不在這個上限的範圍內"},{"start":4704.96,"end":4706.96,"text":"他是另外在第一類的行政院的"},{"start":4706.96,"end":4707.96,"text":"整個總員額的範圍內"},{"start":4707.96,"end":4709.96,"text":"我們昨天當然你可能不一定看"},{"start":4709.96,"end":4710.96,"text":"我們昨天開了一個非常記得"},{"start":4710.96,"end":4713.96,"text":"有完整的資料這個呈現"},{"start":4713.96,"end":4715.96,"text":"這個介護筆是一個很大的問題"},{"start":4715.96,"end":4716.96,"text":"沒有錯沒有錯"},{"start":4716.96,"end":4718.96,"text":"就是因為現在超收嘛"},{"start":4718.96,"end":4721.96,"text":"這個6900人擔心檢查機關的部分"},{"start":4721.96,"end":4723.96,"text":"那如果要突破這個魔咒"},{"start":4723.96,"end":4726.96,"text":"那監所管理員到底要縮小員額"},{"start":4726.96,"end":4729.96,"text":"是不是可以請你給我一個評估過的數據"},{"start":4730.75,"end":4734.75,"text":"這部分我們請副署長來答覆一下立委"},{"start":4734.75,"end":4737.75,"text":"大概要這個合理的介護筆"},{"start":4737.75,"end":4739.75,"text":"大概會說增加多少員額"},{"start":4739.75,"end":4740.75,"text":"你現在初步有概念嗎"},{"start":4741.82,"end":4743.82,"text":"我們比較合理的一個包圍"},{"start":4743.82,"end":4746.82,"text":"我們比較合理的數字應該是1比8"},{"start":4746.82,"end":4747.82,"text":"會比較讓同仁"},{"start":4747.82,"end":4749.82,"text":"你的研究報告是1比6到8"},{"start":4749.82,"end":4751.82,"text":"你現在改成1比8"},{"start":4752.72,"end":4754.72,"text":"那就是1比8所以你還缺多少"},{"start":4755.68,"end":4757.68,"text":"這個監獄管理員還缺多少員額"},{"start":4757.68,"end":4758.68,"text":"你有概念嗎"},{"start":4760.87,"end":4762.87,"text":"大概應該還要再補3000人左右"},{"start":4762.87,"end":4764.87,"text":"對沒有錯大概3000多人"},{"start":4764.87,"end":4767.87,"text":"如果6比8大概是2500到4500"},{"start":4767.87,"end":4769.87,"text":"那我之前再請問次長"},{"start":4769.87,"end":4772.87,"text":"我之前就主張監所管理員的介護今天"},{"start":4773.23,"end":4775.23,"text":"介護今天要提升"},{"start":4775.23,"end":4776.23,"text":"那矯正署署長有告訴過我"},{"start":4776.23,"end":4778.23,"text":"他來辦公室報告"},{"start":4778.23,"end":4780.23,"text":"監所管理員介護今天要提升他"},{"start":4780.2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那次長請看這份報告"},{"start":4948.88,"end":4950.88,"text":"這是矯正署113年做的研究"},{"start":4950.88,"end":4953.88,"text":"矯正人員職業傷病預防研究"},{"start":4953.88,"end":4955.88,"text":"其中有一個很重要的這個建議就是"},{"start":4955.88,"end":4959.88,"text":"裝備的採購應該是要更懂得"},{"start":4959.88,"end":4962.88,"text":"或是說更重視第一線執勤人員的需求"},{"start":4962.88,"end":4965.88,"text":"尤其是台灣夏季高溫屢創新高"},{"start":4965.88,"end":4968.88,"text":"那許多舊的監獄是悶熱難耐"},{"start":4968.88,"end":4970.88,"text":"不但受刑人忍不了"},{"start":4970.88,"end":4972.88,"text":"受刑人也會忍不了容易生衝突"},{"start":4972.88,"end":4973.88,"text":"一生衝突嘛"},{"start":4973.88,"end":4976.88,"text":"那這個監護人員穿著不透氣的衣服"},{"start":4976.88,"end":4977.88,"text":"還有常護來執勤"},{"start":4977.88,"end":4980.88,"text":"其實他們也不比這個受刑人"},{"start":4980.88,"end":4982.88,"text":"更輕鬆啦 更辛苦"},{"start":4982.88,"end":4984.88,"text":"這還是113年報告"},{"start":4984.88,"end":4985.88,"text":"現在是115年"},{"start":4985.88,"end":4987.88,"text":"夏天更長 更熱了嘛"},{"start":4987.88,"end":4990.88,"text":"那許多管理員甚至很卑微的問我"},{"start":4990.88,"end":4992.88,"text":"能不能讓他們自費穿這個冷背心"},{"start":4992.88,"end":4994.88,"text":"或是風扇背心"},{"start":4994.88,"end":4997.88,"text":"他們已經本來都不奢望這個矯正署"},{"start":4997.88,"end":4999.88,"text":"我聽了非常難過"},{"start":4999.88,"end":5002.88,"text":"我非常非常的重視這件事"},{"start":5002.88,"end":5005.88,"text":"所以希望次長能夠把基層的心聲聽進去"},{"start":5005.88,"end":5007.88,"text":"那剛剛是說有開始要處理"},{"start":5007.88,"end":5009.88,"text":"但是動作也要快嘛"},{"start":5009.88,"end":5012.88,"text":"每天都在面對這樣的一個情況嘛"},{"start":5012.88,"end":5014.88,"text":"那次長請你看一下我這張圖"},{"start":5014.88,"end":5017.88,"text":"你知道我為什麼放一瓶綠油精"},{"start":5017.88,"end":5019.88,"text":"綠油精在這個投影片嗎"},{"start":5019.88,"end":5021.88,"text":"因為有郵政員工向我陳情"},{"start":5021.88,"end":5023.88,"text":"他們每天在大太陽下"},{"start":5023.88,"end":5025.88,"text":"送信快熱爆了"},{"start":5025.88,"end":5027.88,"text":"結果郵政公司給他們什麼"},{"start":5027.88,"end":5029.88,"text":"超級少的涼水費"},{"start":5029.88,"end":5031.88,"text":"甚至這個防熱設備"},{"start":5031.88,"end":5033.88,"text":"竟然發給他們綠油精"},{"start":5033.88,"end":5035.88,"text":"你可以接受嗎"},{"start":5035.88,"end":5038.88,"text":"以前還發過這個薄荷棒"},{"start":5038.88,"end":5040.88,"text":"我聽了真的是難以置信"},{"start":5040.88,"end":5042.88,"text":"大家來報考公務員"},{"start":5042.88,"end":5044.88,"text":"國家考試 國營事業"},{"start":5044.88,"end":5046.88,"text":"是因為相信這個國家相信制度"},{"start":5046.88,"end":5048.88,"text":"不然就不會來報考"},{"start":5048.88,"end":5050.88,"text":"結果我們國家竟然給員工用"},{"start":5050.88,"end":5052.88,"text":"綠油精來防熱"},{"start":5052.88,"end":5054.88,"text":"那這個放一瓶綠油精"},{"start":5054.88,"end":5056.88,"text":"就是要提醒次長"},{"start":5056.88,"end":5058.88,"text":"不要像中華郵政那麼淒慘"},{"start":5058.88,"end":5060.88,"text":"次長你有聽懂我的意思嗎"},{"start":5060.88,"end":5061.88,"text":"了解 完全理解"},{"start":5061.88,"end":5062.88,"text":"那我要告訴次長"},{"start":5062.88,"end":5065.88,"text":"現在連發給次郵這個綠油精"},{"start":5065.88,"end":5066.88,"text":"很糟糕的"},{"start":5066.88,"end":5068.88,"text":"我認為很糟糕的中華郵政"},{"start":5068.88,"end":5070.88,"text":"他們面對員工提案"},{"start":5070.88,"end":5073.88,"text":"說要買這個風扇背心"},{"start":5073.88,"end":5075.88,"text":"雖然現在採購還沒有完成"},{"start":5075.88,"end":5076.88,"text":"可是他們提案"},{"start":5076.88,"end":5078.88,"text":"員工的提案已經開始去討論了"},{"start":5078.88,"end":5081.88,"text":"次長我希望你們要善待基層"},{"start":5081.88,"end":5082.88,"text":"不要比爛"},{"start":5082.88,"end":5084.88,"text":"我覺得很爛的中華郵政"},{"start":5084.88,"end":5086.88,"text":"現在中華就已經開始動了"},{"start":5086.88,"end":5088.88,"text":"那你是否能夠研議具體有效的"},{"start":5088.88,"end":5091.88,"text":"這個防熱措施跟設備呢"},{"start":5091.88,"end":5093.88,"text":"剛才副總長也跟國民報告"},{"start":5093.88,"end":5094.88,"text":"剛剛有提到了一點"},{"start":5094.88,"end":5095.88,"text":"甚至我們就服裝部"},{"start":5095.88,"end":5096.88,"text":"他的預算他已經編列"},{"start":5096.88,"end":5097.88,"text":"每人兩千塊的部分"},{"start":5097.88,"end":5099.88,"text":"讓他服裝做一些改善"},{"start":5099.88,"end":5100.88,"text":"這部分其實沒有問題"},{"start":5100.88,"end":5103.88,"text":"次長連我一向詬病的勞動部"},{"start":5103.88,"end":5104.88,"text":"他現在都鼓勵企業"},{"start":5104.88,"end":5106.88,"text":"要買這個熱防護具"},{"start":5106.88,"end":5107.88,"text":"有給補助"},{"start":5107.88,"end":5109.88,"text":"那矯正組做了什麼呢"},{"start":5109.88,"end":5110.88,"text":"因為法警已經開放"},{"start":5110.88,"end":5111.88,"text":"據我了解"},{"start":5111.88,"end":5113.88,"text":"他可以依據個人的這個需求"},{"start":5113.88,"end":5115.88,"text":"穿搭這個長短袖"},{"start":5115.88,"end":5116.88,"text":"那炎熱天氣下"},{"start":5116.88,"end":5118.88,"text":"同仁們想要自費購買"},{"start":5118.88,"end":5120.88,"text":"外界盛行的空冷服"},{"start":5120.88,"end":5121.88,"text":"水冷服上班"},{"start":5121.88,"end":5123.88,"text":"讓自己上班舒服一點"},{"start":5123.88,"end":5124.88,"text":"但是過去卻被"},{"start":5124.88,"end":5125.88,"text":"坐在辦公室吹冷氣的長官"},{"start":5125.88,"end":5128.88,"text":"一句話說不符合規定"},{"start":5128.88,"end":5129.88,"text":"就把它否決"},{"start":5129.88,"end":5131.88,"text":"所以你現在開始要重視"},{"start":5131.88,"end":5133.88,"text":"正視這個問題了嗎"},{"start":5134.47,"end":5136.47,"text":"所以你現在的研擬的方向"},{"start":5136.47,"end":5137.47,"text":"除了補助兩千"},{"start":5137.47,"end":5138.47,"text":"然後讓他們"},{"start":5138.47,"end":5140.47,"text":"對 剛剛我們報告好"},{"start":5140.47,"end":5141.47,"text":"能夠自己選擇嗎"},{"start":5141.47,"end":5142.47,"text":"還是有什麼規範"},{"start":5142.47,"end":5143.47,"text":"選擇不 法務所主"},{"start":5143.47,"end":5144.47,"text":"甚至像我們檢察機關"},{"start":5144.47,"end":5145.47,"text":"我們的法警"},{"start":5145.47,"end":5146.47,"text":"我們甚至可以讓同一半"},{"start":5146.47,"end":5147.47,"text":"可行的部分"},{"start":5147.47,"end":5148.47,"text":"他甚至他們可以自己決定"},{"start":5148.47,"end":5149.47,"text":"在經費範圍裡面"},{"start":5149.47,"end":5153.47,"text":"決定怎樣的材質的這個服裝"},{"start":5153.47,"end":5154.47,"text":"他們就可以接受了"},{"start":5154.47,"end":5155.47,"text":"我們甚至在檢察機關的法警"},{"start":5155.47,"end":5156.47,"text":"可以做到這種程度"},{"start":5156.47,"end":5157.47,"text":"所以你可以想像嗎"},{"start":5157.47,"end":5159.47,"text":"基層他們也賺不了多少錢"},{"start":5159.47,"end":5161.47,"text":"他們竟然就不希望說"},{"start":5161.47,"end":5162.47,"text":"可以讓我自費來購買嗎"},{"start":5162.47,"end":5163.47,"text":"連這種心聲都出來了"},{"start":5163.47,"end":5164.47,"text":"次長"},{"start":5164.47,"end":5166.47,"text":"那現在法務部"},{"start":5166.47,"end":5168.47,"text":"我想請你具體回顧幾件事情"},{"start":5168.47,"end":5169.47,"text":"第一個是不是"},{"start":5169.47,"end":5171.47,"text":"您在19年剛剛我有"},{"start":5171.47,"end":5173.47,"text":"就是你也同意嘛"},{"start":5173.47,"end":5175.47,"text":"就是發函通知全台各監所"},{"start":5175.47,"end":5178.47,"text":"不得用烤雞強迫同仁加班"},{"start":5178.47,"end":5180.47,"text":"還是堂堂皇皇做的"},{"start":5180.47,"end":5181.47,"text":"一直叫他簽名"},{"start":5183.05,"end":5185.05,"text":"那他簽的不算數吧"},{"start":5185.05,"end":5186.05,"text":"那個要作廢吧"},{"start":5186.95,"end":5187.95,"text":"誰敢不簽呢"},{"start":5187.95,"end":5188.95,"text":"簽了現在怎麼辦"},{"start":5189.84,"end":5190.84,"text":"我剛剛跟委員報告"},{"start":5190.84,"end":5192.84,"text":"烤雞他不是從當下簽不簽"},{"start":5192.84,"end":5193.84,"text":"來做評斷"},{"start":5193.84,"end":5195.84,"text":"他是整年度的機構表現"},{"start":5195.84,"end":5196.84,"text":"你可以再一週內"},{"start":5196.84,"end":5197.84,"text":"這個很簡單"},{"start":5197.84,"end":5198.84,"text":"這沒問題"},{"start":5198.84,"end":5200.84,"text":"我們可以要求所屬的"},{"start":5200.84,"end":5201.84,"text":"假設首長不可以做"},{"start":5201.84,"end":5202.84,"text":"那你就發函通知"},{"start":5202.84,"end":5203.84,"text":"我要一份副本"},{"start":5203.84,"end":5204.84,"text":"這個做得到"},{"start":5204.84,"end":5205.84,"text":"隨時就可以回去"},{"start":5205.84,"end":5207.84,"text":"你回去就可以開始發函了"},{"start":5207.84,"end":5209.84,"text":"不得用烤雞強迫同仁加班"},{"start":5209.84,"end":5210.84,"text":"已經簽了"},{"start":5210.84,"end":5211.84,"text":"那個也不作數"},{"start":5211.84,"end":5212.84,"text":"第二個"},{"start":5212.84,"end":5213.84,"text":"你兩週內是不是可以"},{"start":5213.84,"end":5214.84,"text":"送出危險津貼"},{"start":5214.84,"end":5216.84,"text":"提升這個提案"},{"start":5216.84,"end":5217.84,"text":"給人種"},{"start":5217.84,"end":5218.84,"text":"你剛剛跟我說到9月"},{"start":5218.84,"end":5220.84,"text":"現在已經8月中下去了"},{"start":5220.84,"end":5222.84,"text":"兩個禮拜後就是下個月了"},{"start":5222.84,"end":5223.84,"text":"好那你"},{"start":5223.84,"end":5226.84,"text":"那兩個禮拜你不要再拖了"},{"start":5226.84,"end":5227.84,"text":"那不是拖"},{"start":5227.84,"end":5228.84,"text":"那個涉及到就是說"},{"start":5228.84,"end":5229.84,"text":"我們這次訂制"},{"start":5229.84,"end":5230.84,"text":"不是之前"},{"start":5230.84,"end":5231.84,"text":"本來你們是承諾是7月底"},{"start":5231.84,"end":5232.84,"text":"就要交出去了"},{"start":5232.84,"end":5234.84,"text":"對 但有一些意見要出去交換"},{"start":5234.84,"end":5235.84,"text":"那不是不送"},{"start":5235.84,"end":5236.84,"text":"那是補資料"},{"start":5236.84,"end":5237.84,"text":"下個月"},{"start":5237.84,"end":5239.84,"text":"我要請防護再正式評估"},{"start":5239.84,"end":5240.84,"text":"合理的介護人力比"},{"start":5240.84,"end":5244.84,"text":"你剛剛說提到這個1比8"},{"start":5244.84,"end":5245.84,"text":"但是你要有一些基礎"},{"start":5245.84,"end":5247.84,"text":"你去看看其他國家的"},{"start":5247.84,"end":5249.84,"text":"像韓國可能1比2到3"},{"start":5249.84,"end":5250.84,"text":"美國是1比4到5"},{"start":5250.84,"end":5253.84,"text":"日本也是1比3左右"},{"start":5253.84,"end":5255.84,"text":"然後你知道晚上這個時候"},{"start":5255.84,"end":5257.84,"text":"你又超收"},{"start":5257.84,"end":5258.84,"text":"你現在最重要是超收"},{"start":5258.84,"end":5259.84,"text":"他們這個加10"},{"start":5259.84,"end":5262.84,"text":"加上這個晚上可能就1比1000"},{"start":5262.84,"end":5264.84,"text":"這個人力都跑出來"},{"start":5264.84,"end":5266.84,"text":"這個都是你可以去看到數字"},{"start":5266.84,"end":5267.84,"text":"我都看到了"},{"start":5267.84,"end":5269.84,"text":"你更可以看到這個數字"},{"start":5269.84,"end":5270.84,"text":"可以嗎"},{"start":5270.84,"end":5271.84,"text":"你要加快好嗎"},{"start":5271.84,"end":5272.84,"text":"好"},{"start":5272.84,"end":5273.84,"text":"你說的9月底之前"},{"start":5273.84,"end":5275.84,"text":"那你可以提"},{"start":5276.37,"end":5277.37,"text":"快一點"},{"start":5277.37,"end":5279.37,"text":"因為你之前承諾7月底"},{"start":5279.37,"end":5280.37,"text":"要提出來"},{"start":5280.37,"end":5281.37,"text":"然後請具體研擬"},{"start":5281.37,"end":5284.37,"text":"這個監索防熱措施跟增設設備"},{"start":5284.37,"end":5286.37,"text":"這一項非常非常重要"},{"start":5286.37,"end":5288.37,"text":"這個是人道的問題"},{"start":5288.37,"end":5289.37,"text":"非常非常重要"},{"start":5289.37,"end":5291.37,"text":"請次長一定要做這個部分"},{"start":5291.37,"end":5293.37,"text":"就具體的來研議這個部分"},{"start":5293.37,"end":5294.37,"text":"那我看時間"},{"start":5294.37,"end":5296.37,"text":"我來看看再追蹤這個進度"},{"start":5296.37,"end":5297.37,"text":"可以嗎"},{"start":5297.37,"end":5298.37,"text":"次長"},{"start":5298.37,"end":5300.37,"text":"我今天提的四項建議案"},{"start":5300.37,"end":5303.37,"text":"也請你按照我期待的時程"},{"start":5303.37,"end":5304.37,"text":"給我資料"},{"start":5304.37,"end":5305.37,"text":"除了第二件之外"},{"start":5305.37,"end":5306.37,"text":"是不是下個月評估住"},{"start":5306.37,"end":5307.37,"text":"送到行政院"},{"start":5307.37,"end":5308.37,"text":"最慢"},{"start":5308.37,"end":5309.37,"text":"那是最慢下個月"},{"start":5309.37,"end":5310.37,"text":"好"},{"start":5310.37,"end":5311.37,"text":"謝謝次長"},{"start":5311.37,"end":5312.37,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":5314.37,"end":5315.37,"text":"好"},{"start":5315.37,"end":5316.37,"text":"謝謝陳委員"},{"start":5319.12,"end":5320.12,"text":"好"},{"start":5320.12,"end":5321.12,"text":"那接下來我們有請"},{"start":5321.12,"end":5322.12,"text":"林慶琦委員進行詢答"},{"start":5328.48,"end":5329.48,"text":"好"},{"start":5329.48,"end":5330.48,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":5330.48,"end":5331.48,"text":"我們翁昭偉"},{"start":5331.48,"end":5334.48,"text":"我先請我們司法院高秘書長"},{"start":5334.48,"end":5335.48,"text":"好"},{"start":5335.48,"end":5336.48,"text":"請高秘書長"},{"start":5338.62,"end":5339.62,"text":"委員好"},{"start":5339.62,"end":5340.62,"text":"高秘書長你好"},{"start":5340.62,"end":5342.62,"text":"本席今天就"},{"start":5342.62,"end":5345.62,"text":"第一個先就有關司法跟行政機關"},{"start":5345.62,"end":5348.62,"text":"的一個資料斷鏈的這個問題"},{"start":5348.62,"end":5351.62,"text":"會不會影響這個司法相關的這個正義"},{"start":5351.62,"end":5352.62,"text":"來跟您就教"},{"start":5352.62,"end":5353.62,"text":"那也就是說"},{"start":5353.62,"end":5355.62,"text":"在這個行政機關"},{"start":5355.62,"end":5358.62,"text":"相互橫向聯繫的一個問題"},{"start":5358.62,"end":5359.62,"text":"那麼從一個案例"},{"start":5359.62,"end":5360.62,"text":"我們來談那個"},{"start":5360.62,"end":5361.62,"text":"高等法院"},{"start":5361.62,"end":5363.62,"text":"最近審理了一起越南移工"},{"start":5363.62,"end":5365.62,"text":"過世致死的案件"},{"start":5365.62,"end":5367.62,"text":"那麼因為在6月開庭的時候"},{"start":5367.62,"end":5369.62,"text":"兩名被告都沒有到庭"},{"start":5369.62,"end":5370.62,"text":"結果後來查詢才發現"},{"start":5370.62,"end":5373.62,"text":"兩個人早已經被移民署驅逐出境"},{"start":5373.62,"end":5375.62,"text":"那雖然有發佈這個通緝"},{"start":5375.62,"end":5377.62,"text":"但是人都已經離境了"},{"start":5377.62,"end":5380.62,"text":"那後續刑事的審判要怎麼進行"},{"start":5380.62,"end":5383.62,"text":"那被害人家屬又如何來追究相關的這個責任"},{"start":5383.62,"end":5385.62,"text":"就變得有點困難"},{"start":5385.62,"end":5387.62,"text":"那所以本席的理解"},{"start":5387.62,"end":5389.62,"text":"那一審判決無罪"},{"start":5389.62,"end":5391.62,"text":"但是如果沒有申請限制出境"},{"start":5391.62,"end":5395.62,"text":"法院也認為沒有羈押或禁管的必要"},{"start":5395.62,"end":5396.62,"text":"那麼不能因為案件"},{"start":5396.62,"end":5397.62,"text":"還沒有定讞"},{"start":5397.62,"end":5400.62,"text":"那麼無限期限制外國人離境"},{"start":5400.62,"end":5404.62,"text":"那這會涉及無罪推定跟基本的人權"},{"start":5404.62,"end":5407.62,"text":"但是這個案件暴露出"},{"start":5407.62,"end":5409.62,"text":"這個法院如果知道案件還在進行"},{"start":5409.62,"end":5413.62,"text":"就移民署可能掌握當事人已經預期拘留"},{"start":5413.62,"end":5415.62,"text":"那依法就可以驅逐出境"},{"start":5415.62,"end":5419.62,"text":"結果兩套制度變成在各自依法行政之下"},{"start":5419.62,"end":5420.62,"text":"結果資訊沒有過通"},{"start":5420.62,"end":5423.62,"text":"就產生了被告離開了臺灣"},{"start":5423.62,"end":5425.62,"text":"所以請教一下秘書長"},{"start":5425.62,"end":5426.62,"text":"那麼第一個"},{"start":5426.62,"end":5428.62,"text":"那麼目前法院跟移民署之間"},{"start":5428.62,"end":5431.62,"text":"對於涉案外國人的刑事案件進度"},{"start":5431.62,"end":5433.62,"text":"那是不是還在上訴"},{"start":5433.62,"end":5434.62,"text":"有沒有需要到庭"},{"start":5434.62,"end":5435.62,"text":"那整體來講"},{"start":5435.62,"end":5438.62,"text":"沒有制度化的一個通報跟查詢的機制"},{"start":5438.62,"end":5439.62,"text":"那第二個部分是"},{"start":5439.62,"end":5443.62,"text":"那要不要建立一個分級的處理制度"},{"start":5443.62,"end":5445.62,"text":"例如如果涉及重大犯罪"},{"start":5445.62,"end":5447.62,"text":"那被害人死亡或重傷"},{"start":5447.62,"end":5450.62,"text":"那仍有高度的到庭必要的時候"},{"start":5450.62,"end":5454.62,"text":"那麼明刑事求償尚未完成的一個案件"},{"start":5454.62,"end":5457.62,"text":"行政機關決定強制驅逐之前"},{"start":5457.62,"end":5460.62,"text":"是不是應該要向法院或檢查機關"},{"start":5460.62,"end":5462.62,"text":"來查詢案件的狀態"},{"start":5462.62,"end":5466.62,"text":"然後再決定是不是要暫緩執行"},{"start":5466.62,"end":5468.62,"text":"那這個部分本席認為"},{"start":5468.62,"end":5470.62,"text":"司法院跟移民署法務部"},{"start":5470.62,"end":5473.62,"text":"應該建立一些比較確實的資訊互通平台"},{"start":5473.62,"end":5474.62,"text":"然後及時聯繫"},{"start":5474.62,"end":5478.62,"text":"那不曉得您對剛才本席這邊提出來一個看法"},{"start":5478.62,"end":5479.62,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":5479.62,"end":5480.62,"text":"其實從這個案件裡面"},{"start":5480.62,"end":5485.62,"text":"我們現在已經和法務部還有移民署"},{"start":5485.62,"end":5489.62,"text":"這個案件的發生真的是有點斷接"},{"start":5489.62,"end":5491.62,"text":"那對於這個怎麼"},{"start":5491.62,"end":5493.62,"text":"如委員所說的"},{"start":5493.62,"end":5497.62,"text":"要整個從頭到尾要完全聯繫在一起"},{"start":5497.62,"end":5499.62,"text":"我們和法務部移民署"},{"start":5499.62,"end":5502.62,"text":"已經大家互相講清楚說明白"},{"start":5502.62,"end":5504.62,"text":"什麼時候應該要通報"},{"start":5504.62,"end":5508.62,"text":"譬如說那個這個警察官起訴"},{"start":5508.62,"end":5510.62,"text":"送來的資料裡面"},{"start":5510.62,"end":5511.62,"text":"讓大家寫清楚"},{"start":5511.62,"end":5515.62,"text":"法官對於這個案是不是要繼續這個進管"},{"start":5515.62,"end":5518.62,"text":"或怎麼樣也要做清楚"},{"start":5518.62,"end":5520.62,"text":"然後當然最重要"},{"start":5520.62,"end":5522.62,"text":"移民署跟這個法院之間"},{"start":5522.62,"end":5524.62,"text":"你有什麼動作"},{"start":5524.62,"end":5526.62,"text":"大家也要彼此要聯繫清楚"},{"start":5526.62,"end":5530.62,"text":"也就如同委員所說的這個通報機制"},{"start":5530.62,"end":5531.62,"text":"因為這個案件"},{"start":5531.62,"end":5534.62,"text":"讓我們做了很多的改善"},{"start":5536.53,"end":5538.53,"text":"好謝謝秘書長"},{"start":5538.53,"end":5542.53,"text":"所以其實那個資訊斷鏈的這個狀況"},{"start":5542.53,"end":5544.53,"text":"先前就是因為這個案子"},{"start":5544.53,"end":5545.53,"text":"然後大家就發現"},{"start":5545.53,"end":5548.53,"text":"所以你們現在也在及時一個補救當中"},{"start":5548.53,"end":5550.53,"text":"今天談的就是說"},{"start":5550.53,"end":5552.53,"text":"其實是因為這個移民案件"},{"start":5552.53,"end":5555.53,"text":"但是法院跟行政機關很像聯繫"},{"start":5555.53,"end":5556.53,"text":"也常存在斷點"},{"start":5556.53,"end":5559.53,"text":"有沒有可能其他的領域會不會發生"},{"start":5559.53,"end":5561.53,"text":"本席這邊提醒幾個"},{"start":5561.53,"end":5563.53,"text":"你們是不是要做一個檢視"},{"start":5563.53,"end":5566.53,"text":"而像案件也涉及了社教"},{"start":5566.53,"end":5569.53,"text":"社政還有教育警政跟法院"},{"start":5569.53,"end":5572.53,"text":"那麼獨家的案件可能會涉及警政"},{"start":5572.53,"end":5576.53,"text":"檢查法院跟這個監理機關"},{"start":5576.53,"end":5578.53,"text":"那麼法院如果做處分之後呢"},{"start":5578.53,"end":5582.53,"text":"相關的行政機關有沒有及時收到資訊"},{"start":5582.53,"end":5585.53,"text":"或者是行政機關要採取重大措施之前"},{"start":5585.53,"end":5588.53,"text":"有沒有確認整個司法的程序狀態"},{"start":5588.53,"end":5590.53,"text":"那麼這個部分"},{"start":5590.53,"end":5594.53,"text":"是不是各機關如果依照自己的法規來辦理"},{"start":5594.53,"end":5597.53,"text":"結果最後就會變成共同製造了"},{"start":5597.53,"end":5600.53,"text":"這個制度性漏洞的一個狀況"},{"start":5600.53,"end":5604.53,"text":"所以本席在這邊要求一下就是說"},{"start":5604.53,"end":5609.53,"text":"這個法院跟移民警政社政教育監理等行政機關"},{"start":5609.53,"end":5610.53,"text":"那哪一些類型"},{"start":5610.53,"end":5614.53,"text":"針對哪一些類型的案件需要及時做資訊的交換"},{"start":5614.53,"end":5618.53,"text":"那哪一些程序可能需要事前的做一個查詢"},{"start":5618.53,"end":5622.53,"text":"那哪些情況要建立跨機關的一個通報機制"},{"start":5622.53,"end":5625.53,"text":"這個是不是可以請這個司法院這邊"},{"start":5625.53,"end":5628.53,"text":"來做一下這個檢討"},{"start":5628.53,"end":5629.53,"text":"檢視啦"},{"start":5629.53,"end":5630.53,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":5630.53,"end":5633.53,"text":"其實相關判決刑事判決"},{"start":5633.53,"end":5636.53,"text":"如果行政機關他們有需要的時候"},{"start":5636.53,"end":5639.53,"text":"其實早期就現在以前"},{"start":5639.53,"end":5643.53,"text":"書記官都是要把判決書寄給相關機關"},{"start":5643.53,"end":5644.53,"text":"這個是判決以後"},{"start":5644.53,"end":5645.53,"text":"那剛剛委員所說"},{"start":5645.53,"end":5647.53,"text":"在審判程序中"},{"start":5647.53,"end":5651.53,"text":"其實我們現在各機關"},{"start":5651.53,"end":5656.53,"text":"尤其現在是一個資訊數位化"},{"start":5656.53,"end":5660.53,"text":"其實很多數位資訊的聯繫"},{"start":5660.53,"end":5661.53,"text":"我們跟警政"},{"start":5661.53,"end":5662.53,"text":"我們跟衛福"},{"start":5662.53,"end":5664.53,"text":"尤其是我們少家庭"},{"start":5664.53,"end":5667.53,"text":"尤其在衛福經費法這部分"},{"start":5667.53,"end":5671.53,"text":"跟衛福這部分所設立的這個數位系統"},{"start":5671.53,"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謝謝"},{"start":5843,"end":5847,"text":"那接下來還是跟你們有關的本席這邊提醒"},{"start":5847,"end":5848,"text":"不曉得你們有沒有議會到"},{"start":5848,"end":5852,"text":"等整個AI的訴狀大量進入法院"},{"start":5852.64,"end":5855.64,"text":"那我想也是造成一些風險控管的議題"},{"start":5855.64,"end":5859.64,"text":"應該要來處理內外雙軌的這個制度"},{"start":5859.64,"end":5862.64,"text":"也就是說本席剛才談的資訊斷鏈"},{"start":5862.64,"end":5865.64,"text":"會讓訴訟的程序可能會發生漏洞"},{"start":5865.64,"end":5869.64,"text":"但是另外一個快速正在發生的資訊風險"},{"start":5869.64,"end":5872.64,"text":"也就是當生成是AI訴狀"},{"start":5872.64,"end":5873.64,"text":"開始湧入法院"},{"start":5873.64,"end":5874.64,"text":"然後錯誤跟虛構"},{"start":5874.64,"end":5878.64,"text":"或者是無法追溯來源的這個法律資訊"},{"start":5878.64,"end":5880.64,"text":"如果沒有好好的控管"},{"start":5880.64,"end":5883.64,"text":"那整個司法的負擔跟風險會很大"},{"start":5883.64,"end":5885.64,"text":"那麼這個案例從最近"},{"start":5885.64,"end":5887.64,"text":"這個桃園地院有法官"},{"start":5888.65,"end":5889.65,"text":"抱歉"},{"start":5889.65,"end":5892.65,"text":"在判決當中直接提醒當事人說"},{"start":5892.65,"end":5895.65,"text":"你要找一個人類律師啊"},{"start":5895.65,"end":5898.65,"text":"那我想我們在許多的系統上"},{"start":5898.65,"end":5902.65,"text":"都有那個這個系統跟你確認你是否是人類"},{"start":5902.65,"end":5905.65,"text":"可是現在看起來連法院的訴狀"},{"start":5905.65,"end":5906.65,"text":"都會產生這樣一個問題"},{"start":5906.65,"end":5910.65,"text":"所以到底你的律師是不是人類"},{"start":5910.65,"end":5916.65,"text":"那他會導致剛才本席所講的一些這個資訊啊"},{"start":5916.65,"end":5920.65,"text":"還有這個來資訊來源相關的這個議題"},{"start":5920.65,"end":5923.65,"text":"那也就是說實際上已經發生了"},{"start":5923.65,"end":5925.65,"text":"那個氾濫的AI生成訴狀"},{"start":5925.65,"end":5931.65,"text":"那雖然這個AI的生成對人有很大的這個協助"},{"start":5931.65,"end":5933.65,"text":"但是呢可能會發生"},{"start":5933.65,"end":5936.65,"text":"假設你的這個進去的資訊"},{"start":5936.65,"end":5938.65,"text":"不是那麼精確"},{"start":5938.65,"end":5941.65,"text":"甚至AI可能也會自己做一些想像"},{"start":5941.65,"end":5943.65,"text":"結果他可能簡單的話呢"},{"start":5943.65,"end":5945.65,"text":"可能會發生前後矛盾"},{"start":5945.65,"end":5946.65,"text":"抓不到重點"},{"start":5946.65,"end":5947.65,"text":"但是呢"},{"start":5947.65,"end":5950.65,"text":"更深一層他可能引用根本不存在的法條"},{"start":5950.65,"end":5952.65,"text":"判例跟實務見解"},{"start":5952.65,"end":5954.65,"text":"那在這個資訊爆炸的時候"},{"start":5955.37,"end":5956.37,"text":"的時代"},{"start":5956.37,"end":5959.37,"text":"我想每個人都有可能會產生誤判"},{"start":5959.37,"end":5963.37,"text":"所以雖然AI降低了法律這個的文書的門檻"},{"start":5963.37,"end":5965.37,"text":"但是可以協助整理資料"},{"start":5965.37,"end":5967.37,"text":"很多的來製作一些時間軸"},{"start":5967.37,"end":5968.37,"text":"很多的協助"},{"start":5968.37,"end":5970.37,"text":"但是呢很關鍵的是"},{"start":5970.37,"end":5973.37,"text":"那如果最後這樣直接送入了法院"},{"start":5973.37,"end":5976.37,"text":"那也迫使法官跟法官助理還有書記官"},{"start":5976.37,"end":5978.37,"text":"要花很多時間去判別"},{"start":5978.37,"end":5979.37,"text":"然後查證"},{"start":5979.37,"end":5981.37,"text":"那有的時候"},{"start":5981.37,"end":5983.37,"text":"可能大家還不知道"},{"start":5983.37,"end":5986.37,"text":"究竟這個部分有沒有問題"},{"start":5986.37,"end":5987.37,"text":"那更遑論查證了"},{"start":5987.37,"end":5988.37,"text":"所以"},{"start":5988.37,"end":5989.37,"text":"那麼"},{"start":5989.37,"end":5991.37,"text":"我們知道司法院今年已經有"},{"start":5991.37,"end":5992.37,"text":"含"},{"start":5992.37,"end":5997.37,"text":"含班所屬機關使用人工智慧的一個系統的指引"},{"start":5997.37,"end":5999.37,"text":"那這是對法院內部人員"},{"start":5999.37,"end":6000.37,"text":"已經有資安"},{"start":6000.37,"end":6001.37,"text":"各自"},{"start":6001.37,"end":6003.37,"text":"以及人工負荷的要求"},{"start":6003.37,"end":6005.37,"text":"但是剛才那個案例看起來是"},{"start":6005.37,"end":6006.37,"text":"台灣的司法"},{"start":6006.37,"end":6008.37,"text":"對於律師還有一般民眾"},{"start":6008.37,"end":6010.37,"text":"外部使用的明確AI規範"},{"start":6010.37,"end":6012.37,"text":"目前可能還有一些"},{"start":6012.37,"end":6014.37,"text":"需要再調整改進的"},{"start":6014.37,"end":6016.37,"text":"所以就請教"},{"start":6016.37,"end":6017.37,"text":"那你們"},{"start":6017.37,"end":6019.37,"text":"司法院目前有沒有掌握"},{"start":6019.37,"end":6020.37,"text":"AI生成訴狀"},{"start":6020.37,"end":6022.37,"text":"進入法院的一個實際狀況"},{"start":6022.37,"end":6024.37,"text":"那有沒有評估對這一類"},{"start":6024.37,"end":6026.37,"text":"書狀的一個審理的時間"},{"start":6026.37,"end":6028.37,"text":"還有那個查證的負擔"},{"start":6028.37,"end":6030.37,"text":"跟書記官行政工作的影響"},{"start":6030.37,"end":6032.37,"text":"那第二個部分是"},{"start":6032.37,"end":6034.37,"text":"那麼你們司法院有沒有評估"},{"start":6034.37,"end":6037.37,"text":"法院內部人員跟外部訴訟參與"},{"start":6037.37,"end":6039.37,"text":"者雙軌的這個AI的規範"},{"start":6039.37,"end":6041.37,"text":"那麼目前律師跟一般民眾"},{"start":6041.37,"end":6043.37,"text":"利用AI製作書狀"},{"start":6043.37,"end":6045.37,"text":"那基本上"},{"start":6045.37,"end":6047.37,"text":"還蠻缺乏這個明確的"},{"start":6047.37,"end":6048.37,"text":"接入義務"},{"start":6048.37,"end":6050.37,"text":"那麼本席認為如果"},{"start":6050.37,"end":6051.37,"text":"書狀的重要內容"},{"start":6051.37,"end":6053.37,"text":"那法律研究或"},{"start":6053.37,"end":6055.37,"text":"引用的資料是AI生成"},{"start":6055.37,"end":6057.37,"text":"那可以基本的查證跟"},{"start":6057.37,"end":6059.37,"text":"接入的這個責任"},{"start":6059.37,"end":6060.37,"text":"所以最後呢是"},{"start":6060.37,"end":6062.37,"text":"如果明知道這個重大的"},{"start":6062.37,"end":6064.37,"text":"這個過失沒有查證"},{"start":6064.37,"end":6066.37,"text":"結果還向法院提"},{"start":6066.37,"end":6068.37,"text":"這個提交了這個AI"},{"start":6068.37,"end":6070.37,"text":"虛構的這個法律依據或裁判"},{"start":6070.37,"end":6072.37,"text":"那麼司法院是不是"},{"start":6072.37,"end":6074.37,"text":"應該要跟法務部"},{"start":6074.37,"end":6075.37,"text":"還有律師公會"},{"start":6075.37,"end":6076.37,"text":"大家來研議一下"},{"start":6076.37,"end":6078.37,"text":"裁罰法的一些規範"},{"start":6078.37,"end":6080.37,"text":"以上這三點是不是請"},{"start":6080.37,"end":6082.37,"text":"您這邊做個回應"},{"start":6082.37,"end":6084.37,"text":"非常非常贊同委員的意見"},{"start":6084.37,"end":6086.37,"text":"這個真的是我們現在"},{"start":6086.37,"end":6088.37,"text":"應該是所有"},{"start":6088.37,"end":6090.37,"text":"各界都會面對的"},{"start":6090.37,"end":6092.37,"text":"那我先跟委員報告"},{"start":6092.37,"end":6094.37,"text":"律師的管理是法務部"},{"start":6094.37,"end":6096.37,"text":"對這部分積極管理"},{"start":6096.37,"end":6098.37,"text":"然後可以跟委員報告"},{"start":6098.37,"end":6100.37,"text":"其實我們都知道"},{"start":6100.37,"end":6102.37,"text":"在這個AI的模型裡面"},{"start":6102.37,"end":6104.37,"text":"如果你用Notebook LM"},{"start":6104.37,"end":6106.37,"text":"它絕對確認的是"},{"start":6106.37,"end":6108.37,"text":"一個資料的範圍是固定的"},{"start":6108.37,"end":6110.37,"text":"那你用別的東西"},{"start":6110.37,"end":6112.37,"text":"別的東西可能會有幻覺"},{"start":6112.37,"end":6114.37,"text":"所以其實"},{"start":6114.37,"end":6116.37,"text":"我也看到我們的質疑"},{"start":6116.37,"end":6118.37,"text":"法官"},{"start":6118.26,"end":6120.26,"text":"使用AI"},{"start":6120.51,"end":6122.51,"text":"是不能夠用一般商用型的"},{"start":6123.65,"end":6127.65,"text":"除非我們將來資料是落地的"},{"start":6127.65,"end":6129.65,"text":"這是很絕對的"},{"start":6129.65,"end":6131.65,"text":"因為商用型它資料是出去的"},{"start":6131.65,"end":6134.65,"text":"因為裡面有太多各自機敏資料"},{"start":6134.65,"end":6136.65,"text":"所以我們的質疑裡面寫得很清楚"},{"start":6136.65,"end":6138.65,"text":"萬一律師"},{"start":6138.65,"end":6140.65,"text":"他用AI做成書狀"},{"start":6140.65,"end":6142.65,"text":"如同委員說的"},{"start":6142.63,"end":6143.63,"text":"我們都知道"},{"start":6143.63,"end":6145.63,"text":"常常會夾雜一些他的幻覺"},{"start":6145.63,"end":6147.63,"text":"他幻覺的法條什麼"},{"start":6148.54,"end":6150.54,"text":"其實這就是法官的責任"},{"start":6150.54,"end":6152.54,"text":"當你要用"},{"start":6152.54,"end":6154.54,"text":"看律師的書狀"},{"start":6154.54,"end":6156.54,"text":"其實就是法官承擔的責任"},{"start":6156.54,"end":6158.54,"text":"書狀"},{"start":6158.06,"end":6160.06,"text":"你就要去分辨"},{"start":6160.3,"end":6161.3,"text":"一定要去分辨"},{"start":6161.3,"end":6163.3,"text":"其實這個分辨並不難"},{"start":6163.3,"end":6166.3,"text":"將來如果我們沒有資料落地型的"},{"start":6166.3,"end":6168.3,"text":"AI工具來協助"},{"start":6168.3,"end":6170.3,"text":"其實馬上就可以分辨"},{"start":6170.3,"end":6172.3,"text":"這個我們即將要做的事情"},{"start":6172.3,"end":6174.3,"text":"那當然對於律師"},{"start":6174.3,"end":6176.3,"text":"你這個書狀"},{"start":6176.3,"end":6178.3,"text":"你要負什麼責任"},{"start":6178.3,"end":6180.3,"text":"我希望法務部能夠"},{"start":6180.3,"end":6182.3,"text":"做嚴格的要求"},{"start":6182.3,"end":6184.3,"text":"因為這個在世界各國"},{"start":6184.3,"end":6186.3,"text":"美國都一直在發生"},{"start":6186.3,"end":6189.3,"text":"其實這個是妨礙司法的"},{"start":6189.3,"end":6191.3,"text":"好"},{"start":6191.42,"end":6193.42,"text":"當然像如同這件案件"},{"start":6193.42,"end":6197.42,"text":"法官對於其實法官最重大的負擔"},{"start":6197.42,"end":6200.42,"text":"就是在於律師提出來的書狀"},{"start":6200.42,"end":6205.42,"text":"絕對是去查證他所引的資料"},{"start":6206.2,"end":6208.2,"text":"一定要因為你要引他的資料"},{"start":6208.2,"end":6210.2,"text":"你一定要查證他所引的資料"},{"start":6210.2,"end":6212.2,"text":"這就是我的意見"},{"start":6212.2,"end":6214.2,"text":"未來AI可不可以生成到"},{"start":6214.2,"end":6217.2,"text":"他也可以把查證的源頭生成出來"},{"start":6217.2,"end":6219.2,"text":"或是另外一個層次的議題"},{"start":6219.2,"end":6221.2,"text":"其實這個是"},{"start":6221.2,"end":6223.2,"text":"我相信AI的功能真的很強"},{"start":6223.2,"end":6225.2,"text":"只是我們怎麼用"},{"start":6225.2,"end":6227.2,"text":"可是前提是我們要注意"},{"start":6227.2,"end":6229.2,"text":"他幻覺的行程"},{"start":6229.2,"end":6231.2,"text":"你一定要盡到"},{"start":6229.99,"end":6231.99,"text":"查證的義務"},{"start":6231.99,"end":6233.99,"text":"這個是我相信是所有"},{"start":6233.99,"end":6235.99,"text":"使用AI模型都要面對的"},{"start":6236.47,"end":6239.47,"text":"我想這個一個這是全面性的問題"},{"start":6239.47,"end":6241.47,"text":"這個AI當然不是問題"},{"start":6241.47,"end":6243.47,"text":"但是最重要的是AI沒有規範是問題"},{"start":6243.47,"end":6245.47,"text":"可是AI生成的速度"},{"start":6245.47,"end":6248.47,"text":"跟我們在追的速度"},{"start":6248.47,"end":6250.47,"text":"我想這個目前很難講"},{"start":6250.47,"end":6253.47,"text":"所以當事人如果大量使用AI"},{"start":6253.47,"end":6255.47,"text":"錯誤的AI的資訊"},{"start":6255.47,"end":6257.47,"text":"法院查證的成本會變高"},{"start":6257.47,"end":6259.47,"text":"最重要的是大家最後的腦力能力"},{"start":6259.47,"end":6261.47,"text":"可不可以來因應"},{"start":6261.47,"end":6263.47,"text":"我想也不是到最後的"},{"start":6263.47,"end":6265.47,"text":"所謂處罰的這個問題"},{"start":6265.47,"end":6268.47,"text":"前面大家有沒有能耐跟速度"},{"start":6268.47,"end":6270.47,"text":"來跟AI相比"},{"start":6270.47,"end":6272.47,"text":"我覺得這是一個基本的可能"},{"start":6272.47,"end":6274.47,"text":"你們在做本席建議的"},{"start":6274.47,"end":6276.47,"text":"這樣一個方向的時候"},{"start":6276.47,"end":6278.47,"text":"也要考慮到我們前面那個層次的問題"},{"start":6278.47,"end":6280.47,"text":"對"},{"start":6280.47,"end":6282.47,"text":"因為要使用AI"},{"start":6282.47,"end":6284.47,"text":"就如同委員講的"},{"start":6284.47,"end":6287.47,"text":"這就是我們面對的要解決的問題"},{"start":6287.47,"end":6289.47,"text":"謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":6289.47,"end":6291.47,"text":"謝謝秘書長"},{"start":6291.47,"end":6293.47,"text":"好那麼我想這個"},{"start":6293.47,"end":6295.47,"text":"接下來我請那個法務部次長"},{"start":6295.47,"end":6297.47,"text":"那我想剛才應該法務部也大概"},{"start":6297.47,"end":6299.47,"text":"略聽到這個相關的議題"},{"start":6299.47,"end":6301.47,"text":"那這個"},{"start":6301.47,"end":6303.47,"text":"法務部、司法院"},{"start":6303.47,"end":6305.47,"text":"我們想都有一些"},{"start":6305.47,"end":6308.47,"text":"重疊到我們要處理跟因應的一個狀態"},{"start":6308.47,"end":6311.47,"text":"也請你們做一個考量"},{"start":6311.47,"end":6313.47,"text":"做個研究"},{"start":6313.47,"end":6315.47,"text":"然後去因應"},{"start":6315.47,"end":6317.47,"text":"那最後這個問題是"},{"start":6317.47,"end":6319.47,"text":"也是跟您請教"},{"start":6319.47,"end":6321.47,"text":"在這個過程當中"},{"start":6321.47,"end":6323.47,"text":"跨部會資料整合的這個問題"},{"start":6323.47,"end":6325.47,"text":"那麼也是以一起案件"},{"start":6325.47,"end":6327.47,"text":"我們來做個討論"},{"start":6327.47,"end":6329.47,"text":"就是說橋頭地檢署偵辦了一起"},{"start":6329.47,"end":6331.47,"text":"現役軍人的這個九家案件"},{"start":6331.47,"end":6333.47,"text":"那麼被告原本緩起訴處分"},{"start":6333.47,"end":6335.47,"text":"結果呢"},{"start":6335.47,"end":6337.47,"text":"因為沒有依照期限來繳納五萬塊的處分金"},{"start":6337.47,"end":6339.47,"text":"那麼檢方就撤銷他的起訴"},{"start":6339.47,"end":6341.47,"text":"撤銷緩起訴並起訴"},{"start":6341.47,"end":6343.47,"text":"結果案件到了法院"},{"start":6343.47,"end":6345.47,"text":"卻因為檢方把"},{"start":6345.47,"end":6347.47,"text":"撤銷緩起訴的這個處分書"},{"start":6347.47,"end":6349.47,"text":"證書寄到了被告原本的戶籍地"},{"start":6349.47,"end":6351.47,"text":"居住地"},{"start":6351.47,"end":6353.47,"text":"沒有按照刑事訴訟法第六十二條"},{"start":6353.47,"end":6359.47,"text":"准用民事訴訟法第一百二十九條的這個規定"},{"start":6359.47,"end":6361.47,"text":"透過服役的軍事機關"},{"start":6361.47,"end":6363.47,"text":"送達"},{"start":6363.47,"end":6365.47,"text":"那麼法院就認定送達程序不合法"},{"start":6365.47,"end":6367.47,"text":"撤銷了起訴處分"},{"start":6367.47,"end":6369.47,"text":"尚未明確"},{"start":6369.47,"end":6371.47,"text":"最後裁定了這個公訴不受理"},{"start":6371.47,"end":6373.47,"text":"那麼現在這個被告"},{"start":6373.47,"end":6375.47,"text":"在緩起訴的期間入伍"},{"start":6375.47,"end":6377.47,"text":"而且一起到了"},{"start":6377.47,"end":6379.47,"text":"二零二九年也不是臨時或短暫的"},{"start":6379.47,"end":6381.47,"text":"一個身份變動所以在這個過程當中"},{"start":6381.47,"end":6383.47,"text":"被告在"},{"start":6383.47,"end":6385.47,"text":"偵查緩起訴或"},{"start":6385.47,"end":6387.47,"text":"執行期間發生身份"},{"start":6387.47,"end":6389.47,"text":"變更的時候就像剛才"},{"start":6389.47,"end":6391.47,"text":"我們所講的那已經入伍"},{"start":6391.47,"end":6393.47,"text":"成為現役軍人那麼有沒有"},{"start":6393.47,"end":6395.47,"text":"辦法主動來及時取得相關的"},{"start":6395.47,"end":6397.47,"text":"資訊那接下來"},{"start":6397.47,"end":6399.47,"text":"是如果目前的檢察機關"},{"start":6399.47,"end":6401.47,"text":"跟國防部內政"},{"start":6401.47,"end":6403.47,"text":"護政等行政機關已經有一些"},{"start":6403.47,"end":6405.47,"text":"資料的這個"},{"start":6405.47,"end":6407.47,"text":"介面或查詢的機制"},{"start":6407.47,"end":6409.47,"text":"那是不是在實際的"},{"start":6409.47,"end":6411.47,"text":"執行上有一些"},{"start":6411.47,"end":6413.47,"text":"有一些"},{"start":6413.47,"end":6415.47,"text":"缺漏所以沒有"},{"start":6415.47,"end":6417.47,"text":"辦法直接的發揮一些作用"},{"start":6417.47,"end":6419.47,"text":"是不是系統沒有更新或者是"},{"start":6419.47,"end":6421.47,"text":"某一些技術性的問題"},{"start":6421.47,"end":6423.47,"text":"那這件事本來應該是"},{"start":6423.47,"end":6425.47,"text":"這個case應該是可以在事情"},{"start":6425.47,"end":6427.47,"text":"確認送達程序的"},{"start":6427.47,"end":6429.47,"text":"一個瑕疵結果後來導致這樣一個"},{"start":6429.47,"end":6431.47,"text":"結果不曉得您對這個"},{"start":6431.47,"end":6433.47,"text":"這個案件或者是這整體的制度"},{"start":6433.47,"end":6435.47,"text":"怎麼一個看法"},{"start":6435.47,"end":6437.47,"text":"報告您報告的確這個案子因為"},{"start":6437.47,"end":6439.47,"text":"這個被告的身份他是已經"},{"start":6439.47,"end":6441.47,"text":"在送達的時候他已經是現役軍人了"},{"start":6441.47,"end":6443.47,"text":"所以按照刑事處"},{"start":6443.47,"end":6445.47,"text":"用民宿的規定他的確是應該向"},{"start":6445.47,"end":6447.47,"text":"他的所該管的軍事長"},{"start":6447.47,"end":6449.47,"text":"機關或是長官來說送達"},{"start":6449.47,"end":6451.47,"text":"但這個案子後來是向他的"},{"start":6451.47,"end":6453.47,"text":"這個被告的住所跟居所地"},{"start":6453.47,"end":6455.47,"text":"做一個補充送達或者是"},{"start":6455.47,"end":6457.47,"text":"相關留置送達送達本身"},{"start":6457.47,"end":6459.47,"text":"的確是不合法所以法院他"},{"start":6459.47,"end":6461.47,"text":"在下一個不受理判決的話"},{"start":6461.47,"end":6463.47,"text":"他是沒有錯的"},{"start":6463.47,"end":6465.47,"text":"因為被撤交緩起訴處分這個還沒有"},{"start":6465.47,"end":6467.47,"text":"確定"},{"start":6467.47,"end":6469.47,"text":"但是跟委員報告他畢竟是一個"},{"start":6469.47,"end":6471.47,"text":"法院的一個刑事判決就甲官來講"},{"start":6471.47,"end":6473.47,"text":"他"},{"start":6473.47,"end":6475.47,"text":"刑事判決回來之後甲官還是可以"},{"start":6475.47,"end":6477.47,"text":"重新偵查之後再行做相關的"},{"start":6477.47,"end":6479.47,"text":"起訴與否的決定所以這不影響"},{"start":6479.47,"end":6481.47,"text":"被告在實體上的權利"},{"start":6481.47,"end":6483.47,"text":"但程序上的確是他有瑕疵"},{"start":6483.47,"end":6485.47,"text":"這第一點第二點委員所"},{"start":6485.47,"end":6487.47,"text":"提到的就是這個送達的部分是不是要跟"},{"start":6487.47,"end":6489.47,"text":"居士機關有相互的聯繫"},{"start":6489.47,"end":6491.47,"text":"事實上我們跟居士機關之間"},{"start":6491.47,"end":6493.47,"text":"他有一個聯繫的要點在彼此相互的"},{"start":6493.47,"end":6495.47,"text":"協定"},{"start":6495.47,"end":6497.47,"text":"但是前提是甲官他必須要知道"},{"start":6497.47,"end":6499.47,"text":"這個人目前他是現役軍人"},{"start":6499.47,"end":6501.47,"text":"所以在我們"},{"start":6501.47,"end":6503.47,"text":"的辦案系統裡面事實上我們在"},{"start":6503.47,"end":6505.47,"text":"資訊借接的時候事實上甲官"},{"start":6505.47,"end":6507.47,"text":"他有個系統他理論上是"},{"start":6507.47,"end":6509.47,"text":"可以查知這個被告目前"},{"start":6509.47,"end":6511.47,"text":"是否在服役當中"},{"start":6511.47,"end":6513.47,"text":"理論上是這樣但前提是甲官"},{"start":6513.47,"end":6515.47,"text":"他有沒有去查所以這"},{"start":6515.47,"end":6517.47,"text":"這涉及到個案甲官他在一些被告"},{"start":6517.47,"end":6519.47,"text":"起訴的時候他有沒有敏感度"},{"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我們下一位翁曉玲"},{"start":6650.73,"end":6652.73,"text":"翁昭偉 謝謝"},{"start":6653.91,"end":6655.91,"text":"好 謝謝主席"},{"start":6655.91,"end":6657.91,"text":"這邊首先先有請高秘書長"},{"start":6663.19,"end":6665.19,"text":"好 秘書長好"},{"start":6665.19,"end":6667.19,"text":"那麼這次刑事訴訟法"},{"start":6667.19,"end":6669.19,"text":"修正的法案"},{"start":6669.19,"end":6671.19,"text":"那本席大概也提了"},{"start":6671.19,"end":6673.19,"text":"三個不同的案子"},{"start":6673.19,"end":6675.19,"text":"但是我想"},{"start":6675.19,"end":6677.19,"text":"這個就簡化"},{"start":6677.19,"end":6679.19,"text":"刑事訴訟程序"},{"start":6679.19,"end":6681.19,"text":"簡化裁判書製作的這個部分的話"},{"start":6681.19,"end":6683.19,"text":"應該是"},{"start":6683.19,"end":6685.19,"text":"秘書長這邊你們應該會支持我的法案"},{"start":6685.19,"end":6687.19,"text":"好 那麼"},{"start":6687.19,"end":6689.19,"text":"但是呢在有關於這個犯罪被害人"},{"start":6689.19,"end":6691.19,"text":"訴訟權益保障的部分"},{"start":6691.19,"end":6693.19,"text":"那我因為本席也有看到"},{"start":6693.19,"end":6695.19,"text":"就是你對於我所提出的"},{"start":6695.19,"end":6697.19,"text":"有關於刑事訴訟法第310條"},{"start":6697.19,"end":6699.19,"text":"條文修正草案裡面一些內容"},{"start":6699.19,"end":6701.19,"text":"有"},{"start":6701.19,"end":6703.19,"text":"有表示不同的意見"},{"start":6703.19,"end":6705.19,"text":"那剛剛我中線委員"},{"start":6705.19,"end":6707.19,"text":"其實也有幫我"},{"start":6707.19,"end":6709.19,"text":"這個法案也做了一些"},{"start":6709.19,"end":6711.19,"text":"說明 那麼也認為說"},{"start":6711.19,"end":6713.19,"text":"司法院好像似乎"},{"start":6713.19,"end":6715.19,"text":"擔心的太多了"},{"start":6715.19,"end":6717.19,"text":"那麼因為在我的這個法案裡面"},{"start":6717.19,"end":6719.19,"text":"我基本上是要求"},{"start":6719.19,"end":6721.19,"text":"就是有罪判決的理由當中"},{"start":6721.19,"end":6723.19,"text":"應該要記載訴訟參議人"},{"start":6723.19,"end":6725.19,"text":"以及他的代理人就證據"},{"start":6725.19,"end":6727.19,"text":"的證明力以及"},{"start":6727.19,"end":6729.19,"text":"科行範圍所表示的意見"},{"start":6729.19,"end":6731.19,"text":"那麼為什麼要提出來"},{"start":6731.19,"end":6733.19,"text":"這樣的一個修法"},{"start":6733.19,"end":6735.19,"text":"也是我們希望法官"},{"start":6735.19,"end":6737.19,"text":"可以真正的"},{"start":6738.12,"end":6742.12,"text":"聽盡犯罪被害人的意見"},{"start":6742.12,"end":6744.12,"text":"而且不僅是聽盡了"},{"start":6744.12,"end":6746.12,"text":"他還要真的要有所表示"},{"start":6746.12,"end":6750.12,"text":"否則我們很常常會看到的就是"},{"start":6750.12,"end":6752.12,"text":"就算是現在的刑刑法"},{"start":6752.12,"end":6754.12,"text":"賦予給被害人有訴訟參與權"},{"start":6754.12,"end":6756.12,"text":"那麼也他們也能夠"},{"start":6756.12,"end":6758.12,"text":"對於就是證據能力以及"},{"start":6758.12,"end":6760.12,"text":"科行範圍去表示意見"},{"start":6760.36,"end":6762.36,"text":"但是更多的狀況是"},{"start":6762.36,"end":6764.36,"text":"也許是法官有聽沒有盡"},{"start":6764.36,"end":6766.36,"text":"有聽沒有盡"},{"start":6766.36,"end":6768.36,"text":"那麼事實上他到底"},{"start":6768.36,"end":6770.36,"text":"在他的真正的良行"},{"start":6770.36,"end":6772.36,"text":"的過程當中最後的決定是什麼"},{"start":6772.36,"end":6774.36,"text":"總是應該要給犯罪被害人一個交代"},{"start":6774.36,"end":6776.36,"text":"所以這就是為什麼我之所以"},{"start":6776.36,"end":6778.36,"text":"提出這個修法的原因"},{"start":6780.41,"end":6782.41,"text":"當然司法院這裡的擔心"},{"start":6782.41,"end":6784.41,"text":"也不是沒有道理"},{"start":6784.41,"end":6786.41,"text":"可是我在想說總是有一個方法"},{"start":6786.41,"end":6788.41,"text":"可以解決吧就像是我們現在"},{"start":6788.41,"end":6790.41,"text":"很多法院判決書公開的時候"},{"start":6790.41,"end":6792.41,"text":"他都會有一些去識別化的"},{"start":6792.41,"end":6794.41,"text":"一個作業的程序"},{"start":6794.41,"end":6796.41,"text":"那就這個部分的話"},{"start":6796.41,"end":6798.41,"text":"是不是可以請秘書長"},{"start":6798.41,"end":6800.41,"text":"我們一起來看看有沒有可能"},{"start":6800.41,"end":6802.41,"text":"在假設這個法案"},{"start":6802.41,"end":6804.41,"text":"未來會通過的話"},{"start":6804.41,"end":6806.41,"text":"就是你們在做法上面"},{"start":6806.41,"end":6808.41,"text":"有什麼樣可以進一步改善的空間"},{"start":6808.41,"end":6810.41,"text":"請表達一下你的意見"},{"start":6810.41,"end":6812.41,"text":"真的感謝委員真的"},{"start":6812.41,"end":6814.41,"text":"老實說這就在量刑的部分"},{"start":6814.41,"end":6816.41,"text":"其實記載被害人意見跟"},{"start":6816.41,"end":6818.41,"text":"證據證明立的意見"},{"start":6818.41,"end":6820.41,"text":"其實他如果是不立被告"},{"start":6820.41,"end":6822.41,"text":"其實在整個論述的時候"},{"start":6822.41,"end":6824.41,"text":"他就會出現"},{"start":6824.41,"end":6826.41,"text":"那重點就是可行範圍的意見"},{"start":6826.41,"end":6828.41,"text":"那我們所表示的意見"},{"start":6828.41,"end":6830.41,"text":"就是說"},{"start":6830.41,"end":6832.41,"text":"我們擔心"},{"start":6832.41,"end":6834.41,"text":"如果要讓被害人"},{"start":6834.41,"end":6836.41,"text":"所陳述的意見"},{"start":6836.41,"end":6838.41,"text":"自治聚聚都要出現的話"},{"start":6838.41,"end":6840.41,"text":"那絕對是有害的"},{"start":6840.41,"end":6842.41,"text":"那當然"},{"start":6842.41,"end":6844.41,"text":"那個被害人在"},{"start":6844.41,"end":6846.41,"text":"可行範圍就是他的"},{"start":6846.41,"end":6848.41,"text":"可行影響陳述的時候"},{"start":6848.41,"end":6850.41,"text":"很重要的部分"},{"start":6850.41,"end":6852.41,"text":"當然在判決書是應該要記載的"},{"start":6852.41,"end":6854.41,"text":"其實我們表達的意見是說"},{"start":6854.41,"end":6856.41,"text":"不可能"},{"start":6856.6,"end":6858.6,"text":"把被害人所講的"},{"start":6858.6,"end":6860.6,"text":"尤其情緒激動那些話"},{"start":6860.6,"end":6862.6,"text":"都放進去"},{"start":6862.6,"end":6864.6,"text":"這是我們擔憂的"},{"start":6864.6,"end":6866.6,"text":"或許未來在逐條審查的時候"},{"start":6866.6,"end":6868.6,"text":"就法律"},{"start":6868.6,"end":6870.6,"text":"就我們現在修法的文字內容"},{"start":6870.6,"end":6872.6,"text":"也可以再做得更精準"},{"start":6872.6,"end":6874.6,"text":"因為我們這邊強調當然不是"},{"start":6874.6,"end":6876.6,"text":"做逐字稿"},{"start":6876.6,"end":6878.6,"text":"每一個字都要記載下去"},{"start":6878.6,"end":6880.6,"text":"它也可能可以透過"},{"start":6880.6,"end":6882.6,"text":"一個篩選以及與"},{"start":6882.6,"end":6884.6,"text":"良心有關必要的陳述"},{"start":6884.6,"end":6886.6,"text":"用摘要陳述的方式來處理"},{"start":6886.6,"end":6888.6,"text":"所以這個是本席希望說"},{"start":6888.6,"end":6890.6,"text":"在推進"},{"start":6890.6,"end":6892.6,"text":"訴訟被害人權益保障的部分"},{"start":6892.6,"end":6894.6,"text":"我們可以有更進一步"},{"start":6894.6,"end":6896.6,"text":"能夠提升相關"},{"start":6896.6,"end":6898.6,"text":"被害人權益保障的一個做法"},{"start":6898.6,"end":6900.6,"text":"對於這個對當事人來講"},{"start":6900.6,"end":6902.6,"text":"他會覺得說他在法庭上面的"},{"start":6902.6,"end":6904.6,"text":"這些陳述"},{"start":6904.6,"end":6906.6,"text":"事實上法官是真的"},{"start":6906.6,"end":6908.6,"text":"有聽進"},{"start":6908.6,"end":6910.6,"text":"而且同時"},{"start":6910.6,"end":6912.6,"text":"也能夠依照他們"},{"start":6912.6,"end":6914.6,"text":"不管是贊成或是反對他們的意見"},{"start":6914.6,"end":6916.6,"text":"總是可以有"},{"start":6916.6,"end":6918.6,"text":"讓他們知道說有一個理由嗎"},{"start":6918.6,"end":6920.6,"text":"法官的理由到底是什麼"},{"start":6920.6,"end":6922.6,"text":"這個才能夠說服"},{"start":6922.6,"end":6924.6,"text":"或是讓當事人能夠信服"},{"start":6924.6,"end":6926.6,"text":"這個判決"},{"start":6926.6,"end":6928.6,"text":"所以這個部分的話是本席希望"},{"start":6928.6,"end":6930.6,"text":"就是之後再進行逐條審查的時候"},{"start":6930.6,"end":6932.6,"text":"我們跟司法院這裡"},{"start":6932.6,"end":6934.6,"text":"可以有更進一步的討論"},{"start":6934.6,"end":6936.6,"text":"然後大家可以看看在法庭"},{"start":6936.6,"end":6938.6,"text":"文字上面要怎麼樣的修正"},{"start":6938.6,"end":6940.6,"text":"我們很希望的就是說能夠"},{"start":6940.6,"end":6942.6,"text":"被害人他不是只是一個訴訟的陪襯"},{"start":6942.6,"end":6944.6,"text":"而是真正的能夠參與"},{"start":6944.6,"end":6946.6,"text":"這個也是我們這次修法裡面"},{"start":6946.6,"end":6948.6,"text":"我們希望能夠達成的目標"},{"start":6948.6,"end":6950.6,"text":"好"},{"start":6950.6,"end":6952.6,"text":"那接下來就是說當然我的第二個"},{"start":6952.6,"end":6954.6,"text":"修法的重點就是希望能夠減輕"},{"start":6954.6,"end":6956.6,"text":"這個書記官的負擔"},{"start":6956.6,"end":6958.6,"text":"然後讓整個的這個"},{"start":6958.6,"end":6960.6,"text":"裁判書的"},{"start":6960.6,"end":6962.6,"text":"判決的做成當中"},{"start":6962.6,"end":6964.6,"text":"可以減輕法官跟書記官"},{"start":6964.6,"end":6966.6,"text":"等等的工作負擔"},{"start":6966.6,"end":6968.6,"text":"那我也看到就是"},{"start":6968.6,"end":6970.6,"text":"黃署長其實你現在有提出一個"},{"start":6970.6,"end":6973.6,"text":"就是司法院會成立一個全國電話中心一個"},{"start":6973.6,"end":6975.6,"text":"Code 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center成立了"},{"start":7108.71,"end":7110.71,"text":"是不是再把電話丟給他們"},{"start":7110.71,"end":7112.71,"text":"這是我們絕對要"},{"start":7113.86,"end":7115.86,"text":"築起一道牆"},{"start":7115.86,"end":7117.86,"text":"一定要在這邊能夠達成"},{"start":7117.86,"end":7119.86,"text":"謝謝秘書長說明"},{"start":7119.86,"end":7121.86,"text":"因為我想現在很多人基本上"},{"start":7121.86,"end":7123.86,"text":"都有這種被call 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那麼接下來的本席"},{"start":7206.6,"end":7209.6,"text":"還有再問另外一個"},{"start":7209.6,"end":7210.6,"text":"剛剛前面的委員"},{"start":7210.6,"end":7212.6,"text":"剛剛林茜琪委員也有問到的"},{"start":7212.6,"end":7214.6,"text":"這個時事的新聞"},{"start":7214.6,"end":7217.6,"text":"就是講到2023年12月"},{"start":7217.6,"end":7219.6,"text":"新竹湖口一間早餐店"},{"start":7219.6,"end":7220.6,"text":"因為發生火災"},{"start":7220.6,"end":7223.6,"text":"所以29歲的消防員"},{"start":7223.6,"end":7225.6,"text":"他進入火場搜救"},{"start":7225.6,"end":7226.6,"text":"就不幸殉職"},{"start":7226.6,"end":7229.6,"text":"然後家屬當然就承受天然永隔之痛"},{"start":7229.6,"end":7230.6,"text":"那檢放調查之後"},{"start":7230.6,"end":7232.6,"text":"也認為說其中就是"},{"start":7232.6,"end":7234.6,"text":"兩名越南籍的移工"},{"start":7235.47,"end":7237.47,"text":"涉嫌因為抽煙"},{"start":7237.47,"end":7239.47,"text":"在當場引發火災"},{"start":7239.47,"end":7241.47,"text":"所以當時就以過失致死"},{"start":7241.47,"end":7243.47,"text":"公共危險等等這些罪起訴"},{"start":7243.47,"end":7246.47,"text":"那一審法院後來是判這兩名"},{"start":7246.47,"end":7249.47,"text":"外籍越南籍移工無罪"},{"start":7249.47,"end":7250.47,"text":"但是本席要強調的是"},{"start":7250.47,"end":7252.47,"text":"一審無罪不代表說"},{"start":7252.47,"end":7254.47,"text":"二審是無罪"},{"start":7254.47,"end":7257.47,"text":"所以檢察官對這個案子"},{"start":7257.47,"end":7258.47,"text":"他不服判決提起上訴"},{"start":7258.47,"end":7260.47,"text":"那二審這個案件"},{"start":7260.47,"end":7263.47,"text":"明明還在二審的審理當中"},{"start":7263.47,"end":7265.47,"text":"可是今年5月20號移民署"},{"start":7265.47,"end":7267.47,"text":"竟然就將這兩名被告"},{"start":7267.47,"end":7270.47,"text":"就強制驅逐出境送回越南"},{"start":7270.47,"end":7273.47,"text":"等到6月、高月開庭的時候才發現"},{"start":7273.47,"end":7275.47,"text":"這兩個"},{"start":7275.99,"end":7278.99,"text":"犯罪嫌疑的這兩個被告怎麼就不見了"},{"start":7278.99,"end":7280.99,"text":"那法院一查才知道說"},{"start":7280.99,"end":7282.99,"text":"這個人早就被移民署授出台灣"},{"start":7282.99,"end":7284.99,"text":"最後只能發布通緝令"},{"start":7284.99,"end":7287.99,"text":"那本席當然這邊要請教"},{"start":7287.99,"end":7289.99,"text":"這個秘書長"},{"start":7289.99,"end":7291.99,"text":"待會可能還要請教法務部黃次長的"},{"start":7291.99,"end":7294.99,"text":"就是說移民署的說法是說"},{"start":7294.99,"end":7296.99,"text":"因為他們在依法強制驅逐出境之前"},{"start":7296.99,"end":7298.99,"text":"曾經有通知司法機關"},{"start":7298.99,"end":7301.99,"text":"可是因為法院沒有羈押"},{"start":7301.99,"end":7302.99,"text":"也沒有限制出境"},{"start":7302.99,"end":7304.99,"text":"也沒有通知移民署暫緩執行"},{"start":7304.99,"end":7306.99,"text":"所以才把人送走"},{"start":7306.99,"end":7308.99,"text":"那麼如果說這個說法屬實的話"},{"start":7308.99,"end":7310.99,"text":"我們要第一個問司法院"},{"start":7310.99,"end":7312.99,"text":"就是為什麼法院"},{"start":7314.8,"end":7316.8,"text":"在收到移屬通知的時候"},{"start":7316.8,"end":7319.8,"text":"明明知道這兩名被告的案件還沒有確定"},{"start":7320.78,"end":7322.78,"text":"也知道二審就要開庭了"},{"start":7322.78,"end":7325.78,"text":"可是卻沒有採取任何的措施"},{"start":7325.78,"end":7327.78,"text":"這中間到底是發生什麼問題"},{"start":7327.78,"end":7329.78,"text":"是承辦的法院沒有注意到"},{"start":7329.78,"end":7331.78,"text":"還是說公文到了法院之後呢"},{"start":7331.78,"end":7334.78,"text":"卻沒有及時送到陳審法官"},{"start":7334.78,"end":7336.78,"text":"所以才出現了這樣的一個漏洞"},{"start":7337.57,"end":7339.57,"text":"其實這個最大的原因"},{"start":7339.57,"end":7341.57,"text":"就是因為法官他在一審判無罪"},{"start":7342.8,"end":7344.8,"text":"判無罪以後"},{"start":7344.8,"end":7346.8,"text":"他的對人身自由的思考就會不一樣"},{"start":7346.8,"end":7348.8,"text":"所以他那時候就沒有"},{"start":7350.58,"end":7352.58,"text":"限制出境出海"},{"start":7352.58,"end":7354.58,"text":"其實這個是第一審"},{"start":7354.58,"end":7356.58,"text":"如果說有瑕疵就在這個地方"},{"start":7356.58,"end":7358.58,"text":"那因為沒有限制出境出海"},{"start":7358.58,"end":7360.58,"text":"那當然移民署他一規定"},{"start":7360.58,"end":7362.58,"text":"可是問題是檢察官已經提起上訴"},{"start":7362.58,"end":7364.58,"text":"而且二審法院也已經要排"},{"start":7364.58,"end":7366.58,"text":"都已經排了庭了嘛"},{"start":7366.58,"end":7368.58,"text":"那這件事情為什麼都沒有讓移民署知道呢"},{"start":7368.58,"end":7370.58,"text":"沒有"},{"start":7370.58,"end":7372.58,"text":"跟委員報告就說"},{"start":7372.58,"end":7374.58,"text":"在法官排庭之前他就不在了"},{"start":7376.97,"end":7378.97,"text":"他就出去了"},{"start":7378.97,"end":7382.97,"text":"那其實最重要就是一審沒有限制出境出海"},{"start":7383.48,"end":7385.48,"text":"如果有限制"},{"start":7385.48,"end":7387.48,"text":"真的是整個程序裡面"},{"start":7387.48,"end":7389.48,"text":"瑕疵是在這個地方"},{"start":7389.48,"end":7391.48,"text":"所以變成說可能是一審法官"},{"start":7391.48,"end":7393.48,"text":"當時沒有做限制出海"},{"start":7393.48,"end":7395.48,"text":"這樣的一個處分"},{"start":7395.48,"end":7397.48,"text":"但是問題是說"},{"start":7397.48,"end":7399.48,"text":"接下來可能要請黃次長"},{"start":7400.66,"end":7402.66,"text":"好"},{"start":7403.85,"end":7405.85,"text":"因為在這個案件當中"},{"start":7405.85,"end":7407.85,"text":"其實檢察官他已經提起上訴了"},{"start":7407.85,"end":7409.85,"text":"那檢察官提起上訴的時候"},{"start":7409.85,"end":7411.85,"text":"為什麼沒有同時申請"},{"start":7411.85,"end":7413.85,"text":"要針對這兩名"},{"start":7413.71,"end":7417.71,"text":"月籍的移工要申請限制出境出海"},{"start":7417.71,"end":7419.71,"text":"各位報告"},{"start":7419.71,"end":7421.71,"text":"在案件在審理當中的強制處分權"},{"start":7421.71,"end":7423.71,"text":"是屬於法官所擁有的"},{"start":7423.71,"end":7425.71,"text":"可是你們也可以申請吧"},{"start":7425.71,"end":7427.71,"text":"我們可以促請法官"},{"start":7427.71,"end":7429.71,"text":"對你們促請"},{"start":7429.71,"end":7431.71,"text":"你們有促請嗎"},{"start":7431.71,"end":7433.71,"text":"這個案我沒有清楚他們促請"},{"start":7433.71,"end":7435.71,"text":"但是這個整個過程當中"},{"start":7435.71,"end":7437.71,"text":"事實上法院就被告的保權"},{"start":7437.71,"end":7439.71,"text":"應該是要法院來做處理"},{"start":7439.71,"end":7441.71,"text":"那假如法官可以促請"},{"start":7441.71,"end":7443.71,"text":"我們就讓法官做這件事情"},{"start":7443.71,"end":7445.71,"text":"那這個案上有沒有促請我們回去查看看"},{"start":7445.71,"end":7447.71,"text":"不過因為這個案子的確是很荒謬"},{"start":7447.71,"end":7449.71,"text":"不好意思 橫拉還要再請告秘書長"},{"start":7452.33,"end":7454.33,"text":"因為事實上就是說"},{"start":7454.33,"end":7456.33,"text":"我們可以知道說這個環節"},{"start":7456.33,"end":7458.33,"text":"當然一方面就在於就是說"},{"start":7458.33,"end":7460.33,"text":"機關的橫向聯繫不夠"},{"start":7460.33,"end":7462.33,"text":"那二方面就是可能也涉及到"},{"start":7462.33,"end":7464.33,"text":"移民法的規定"},{"start":7464.33,"end":7466.33,"text":"因為移民法第36條第三項的規定是說"},{"start":7466.33,"end":7468.33,"text":"移民署如果知道外國人涉及刑事案件"},{"start":7468.33,"end":7470.33,"text":"已經進入司法程序"},{"start":7470.33,"end":7472.33,"text":"他在強制出"},{"start":7472.33,"end":7474.33,"text":"強制驅逐出國的十天前"},{"start":7474.33,"end":7476.33,"text":"要通知司法機關"},{"start":7476.33,"end":7478.33,"text":"但是只要是沒有依法"},{"start":7478.33,"end":7480.33,"text":"羈押具體管制或限制出國的話"},{"start":7480.33,"end":7482.33,"text":"移民署是得強制驅逐出境"},{"start":7482.33,"end":7484.33,"text":"所以就在這裡"},{"start":7484.33,"end":7486.33,"text":"就發生了一個問題就是"},{"start":7486.33,"end":7488.33,"text":"這個得的這個字"},{"start":7488.33,"end":7490.33,"text":"當然移民署今天他可以主張"},{"start":7490.33,"end":7492.33,"text":"就是說因為你們法院確實"},{"start":7492.33,"end":7494.33,"text":"也沒有限制出海出境的這個處分"},{"start":7494.33,"end":7496.33,"text":"所以他認為說"},{"start":7496.33,"end":7498.33,"text":"沒有什麼問題"},{"start":7498.33,"end":7500.33,"text":"那他就是直接放人了"},{"start":7500.33,"end":7502.33,"text":"可是對於我們像類似這種案件"},{"start":7502.33,"end":7504.33,"text":"他可能會事後會"},{"start":7504.33,"end":7506.33,"text":"他之後可能會涉及到"},{"start":7507.33,"end":7509.33,"text":"這二審還要繼續判嗎"},{"start":7509.33,"end":7511.33,"text":"還要繼續審嗎"},{"start":7511.08,"end":7513.08,"text":"但是現在已經被告都已經"},{"start":7513.08,"end":7515.08,"text":"逃出國外了"},{"start":7514.82,"end":7516.82,"text":"都已經放出國外了"},{"start":7516.82,"end":7518.82,"text":"他是被放出國外了"},{"start":7518.82,"end":7520.82,"text":"他有可能會再回來接受審判嗎"},{"start":7525,"end":7527,"text":"應該不會了"},{"start":7527,"end":7529,"text":"基本依照我們的禁業法則來講"},{"start":7529,"end":7531,"text":"他幾乎不可能會"},{"start":7531,"end":7533,"text":"再自己回到台灣來接受審判"},{"start":7533,"end":7535,"text":"所以難怪這個"},{"start":7535,"end":7537,"text":"訓職的消防員的家屬"},{"start":7537,"end":7539,"text":"他悲憤的表示說"},{"start":7539,"end":7541,"text":"這些外籍勞工"},{"start":7541,"end":7543,"text":"這兩名外籍勞工又不是笨蛋"},{"start":7543,"end":7545,"text":"被告回到越南之後"},{"start":7545,"end":7547,"text":"根本不可能再回到台灣受審了"},{"start":7547,"end":7549,"text":"發布通緝根本是"},{"start":7549,"end":7551,"text":"於事無補"},{"start":7551,"end":7553,"text":"所以像這樣的一個情況的話"},{"start":7553,"end":7555,"text":"這個案子最後是要怎麼結呢"},{"start":7557.18,"end":7559.18,"text":"對請教秘書長"},{"start":7587.18,"end":7589.18,"text":"現在請委員這裡有提到"},{"start":7589.18,"end":7591.18,"text":"尤其是我們現在台灣的"},{"start":7591.18,"end":7593.18,"text":"外籍勞工"},{"start":7593.18,"end":7595.18,"text":"合法的外籍勞工大概就30萬人"},{"start":7595.18,"end":7597.18,"text":"然後非法的"},{"start":7597.18,"end":7599.18,"text":"外籍勞工大概是10萬人左右"},{"start":7599.18,"end":7601.18,"text":"那麼難免一定會有類似的"},{"start":7601.18,"end":7603.18,"text":"相關的犯罪案件的發生"},{"start":7603.18,"end":7605.18,"text":"那麼如果說類似"},{"start":7605.18,"end":7607.18,"text":"如果再有這樣的一個情況"},{"start":7607.18,"end":7609.18,"text":"到時候不能夠追究"},{"start":7609.18,"end":7611.18,"text":"不能夠推責啦"},{"start":7611.18,"end":7613.18,"text":"不能卸責法院說這不是我的責任"},{"start":7613.18,"end":7615.18,"text":"然後檢察官這裡也說不是我的責任"},{"start":7615.18,"end":7617.18,"text":"然後移民署也說這不是我的責任"},{"start":7617.18,"end":7619.18,"text":"那到底這個責任該是誰去扛"},{"start":7619.18,"end":7621.18,"text":"該去追究哪一個機關"},{"start":7621.18,"end":7623.18,"text":"我認為說這個部分要"},{"start":7623.18,"end":7625.18,"text":"趕快的去"},{"start":7625.18,"end":7627.18,"text":"進行一個跨部會的協調"},{"start":7627.18,"end":7629.18,"text":"我們希望能夠"},{"start":7629.18,"end":7631.18,"text":"儘速的能夠把這個漏洞"},{"start":7631.18,"end":7633.18,"text":"填補起來"},{"start":7633.18,"end":7635.18,"text":"在法律還沒有完成修正之前"},{"start":7635.18,"end":7637.18,"text":"是不是法務部跟司法院"},{"start":7637.18,"end":7639.18,"text":"都可以答應你們可以儘速的"},{"start":7639.18,"end":7641.18,"text":"啟動和內政部移民署"},{"start":7641.18,"end":7643.18,"text":"這裡啟動這個相關的協調機制"},{"start":7643.18,"end":7645.18,"text":"沒有問題"},{"start":7645.65,"end":7647.65,"text":"好的那麼當然對於就是"},{"start":7647.65,"end":7649.65,"text":"到底是一審法官"},{"start":7649.65,"end":7651.65,"text":"那裡有出了問題"},{"start":7651.65,"end":7653.65,"text":"還是到二審"},{"start":7653.65,"end":7655.65,"text":"在法院的內部程序裡面"},{"start":7655.65,"end":7657.65,"text":"是不是也出現了漏洞匣子"},{"start":7657.65,"end":7659.65,"text":"我希望司法院還是可以針對這個案子"},{"start":7659.65,"end":7661.65,"text":"去進行一個檢討"},{"start":7661.65,"end":7663.65,"text":"那麼因為看起來我覺得這個一審法官"},{"start":7663.65,"end":7665.65,"text":"好像在對於外籍移工"},{"start":7665.65,"end":7667.65,"text":"沒有做出限制"},{"start":7667.65,"end":7669.65,"text":"出境出海的這個事情上面"},{"start":7669.65,"end":7671.65,"text":"是不是也有些疏失"},{"start":7671.65,"end":7673.65,"text":"相關前脈法官"},{"start":7673.65,"end":7675.65,"text":"未來需不需要進入到法官評鑑"},{"start":7675.65,"end":7677.65,"text":"只能去做討論"},{"start":7677.65,"end":7679.65,"text":"我希望司法院可以針對這個案子"},{"start":7679.65,"end":7681.65,"text":"再做一個檢討"},{"start":7681.65,"end":7683.65,"text":"因為這真的是個案的法官"},{"start":7683.65,"end":7685.65,"text":"在個案判斷的瑕疵啦"},{"start":7685.65,"end":7687.65,"text":"那至於要不要進行評鑑"},{"start":7687.65,"end":7689.65,"text":"那當然是另外一回事"},{"start":7689.65,"end":7691.65,"text":"那就是因為假設有出現瑕疵的話"},{"start":7691.65,"end":7693.65,"text":"那當然可能可以進到法官評鑑"},{"start":7693.65,"end":7695.65,"text":"委員會去做討論嘛"},{"start":7695.65,"end":7697.65,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":7697.65,"end":7699.65,"text":"因為這法官在個案的判決上面"},{"start":7699.65,"end":7701.65,"text":"出現問題然後"},{"start":7701.65,"end":7703.65,"text":"都"},{"start":7702.88,"end":7704.88,"text":"都不理不睬"},{"start":7704.88,"end":7706.88,"text":"或是認為說這個沒有什麼關係"},{"start":7706.88,"end":7708.88,"text":"他只是犯了一個小小的錯誤"},{"start":7708.88,"end":7709.88,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":7709.88,"end":7710.88,"text":"重點是"},{"start":7710.88,"end":7712.88,"text":"除非我們要感動審判核心"},{"start":7713.68,"end":7715.68,"text":"司法行政可不可以動審判核心"},{"start":7715.68,"end":7717.68,"text":"這是我們最大家對的"},{"start":7717.68,"end":7719.68,"text":"這次就是自從您擔任"},{"start":7719.68,"end":7721.68,"text":"律師長來立法院"},{"start":7721.68,"end":7723.68,"text":"就是備詢之後呢"},{"start":7723.68,"end":7725.68,"text":"我常常認為說您都會用審判核心"},{"start":7725.68,"end":7727.68,"text":"來當成一個"},{"start":7727.68,"end":7728.68,"text":"的一個藉口"},{"start":7728.68,"end":7730.68,"text":"我認為說法官審判核心"},{"start":7730.68,"end":7731.68,"text":"我們一定要予以尊重"},{"start":7731.68,"end":7733.68,"text":"但是這審判核心也不是無限上綱啊"},{"start":7735.18,"end":7737.18,"text":"對 否則的話為什麼會"},{"start":7737.18,"end":7739.18,"text":"還是會看到有很多的裁判"},{"start":7739.18,"end":7741.18,"text":"判決是有瑕疵的"},{"start":7741.18,"end":7743.18,"text":"然後被高院或是甚至被憲法法院"},{"start":7743.18,"end":7745.18,"text":"認為說"},{"start":7745.18,"end":7747.18,"text":"是有瑕疵所以就"},{"start":7747.18,"end":7749.18,"text":"就發回"},{"start":7749.18,"end":7751.18,"text":"審判或是甚至認為說"},{"start":7751.18,"end":7753.18,"text":"他是個違憲的判決等等的"},{"start":7753.18,"end":7755.18,"text":"所以就這個案子來說的話"},{"start":7755.18,"end":7757.18,"text":"我希望大家可以來檢討"},{"start":7757.18,"end":7759.18,"text":"如果是重大瑕疵"},{"start":7759.18,"end":7761.18,"text":"是一定重制律的"},{"start":7761.67,"end":7763.67,"text":"並不是那麼簡單的"},{"start":7763.67,"end":7765.67,"text":"那其實這個跟"},{"start":7765.67,"end":7767.67,"text":"如同委員所說的"},{"start":7767.64,"end":7769.64,"text":"他制度上是有個地方是可以彌補的"},{"start":7771.51,"end":7773.51,"text":"那我們也不能說全部都是審判核心"},{"start":7773.51,"end":7775.51,"text":"我們也要從制度上去彌補"},{"start":7775.51,"end":7777.51,"text":"簡單來說啦"},{"start":7777.51,"end":7779.51,"text":"我們如果說從民法的善良管理人的角度來看的話"},{"start":7779.51,"end":7781.51,"text":"就法官他今天有沒有進入到"},{"start":7781.51,"end":7783.51,"text":"進到善良管理人的"},{"start":7783.51,"end":7785.51,"text":"注意的義務嘛"},{"start":7785.51,"end":7787.51,"text":"包含檢察官也是一樣"},{"start":7787.51,"end":7789.51,"text":"都非常上述的總是要去了解現在被告的情況"},{"start":7789.51,"end":7791.51,"text":"是怎麼樣"},{"start":7791.51,"end":7793.51,"text":"所以呢因為法官跟檢察官是具有"},{"start":7793.51,"end":7795.51,"text":"高度專業知識的"},{"start":7795.51,"end":7797.51,"text":"法律知識的"},{"start":7797.51,"end":7799.51,"text":"司法人員跟一般的老百姓"},{"start":7799.51,"end":7801.51,"text":"不一樣"},{"start":7801.51,"end":7803.51,"text":"所以我們當然這邊是有資格"},{"start":7803.51,"end":7805.51,"text":"要求"},{"start":7805.01,"end":7807.01,"text":"司法人員要"},{"start":7807.01,"end":7809.01,"text":"更能夠善盡他的"},{"start":7809.01,"end":7811.01,"text":"注意的義務好不好"},{"start":7811.01,"end":7813.01,"text":"好那接下來還有一個問題就是"},{"start":7813.01,"end":7815.01,"text":"跟"},{"start":7814.17,"end":7816.17,"text":"這個大法官"},{"start":7816.17,"end":7818.17,"text":"判治113號"},{"start":7818.17,"end":7820.17,"text":"113年的刑判至8號"},{"start":7820.17,"end":7822.17,"text":"的問題有關"},{"start":7822.45,"end":7824.45,"text":"那這裡的話可能要跟"},{"start":7824.45,"end":7826.45,"text":"黃市長可能請"},{"start":7826.45,"end":7828.45,"text":"這個秘書長可以先回座"},{"start":7831.94,"end":7833.94,"text":"我們知道其實司法院憲法法庭"},{"start":7833.94,"end":7835.94,"text":"在113年他做成了"},{"start":7835.94,"end":7837.94,"text":"憲判至8號判決之後"},{"start":7837.94,"end":7839.94,"text":"針對該案申請人因為死刑"},{"start":7839.94,"end":7841.94,"text":"確定案件就創設了"},{"start":7841.94,"end":7843.94,"text":"可以請求檢察總長"},{"start":7843.94,"end":7845.94,"text":"提起特別非常上述的"},{"start":7845.94,"end":7847.94,"text":"個案究竟情形"},{"start":7847.94,"end":7849.94,"text":"那麼這個部分事實上"},{"start":7849.94,"end":7851.94,"text":"我看到了最高檢"},{"start":7851.94,"end":7853.94,"text":"最高檢察長這邊"},{"start":7853.94,"end":7855.94,"text":"陸續對於五位死求"},{"start":7855.94,"end":7857.94,"text":"提出了非常"},{"start":7857.94,"end":7859.94,"text":"上述"},{"start":7859.94,"end":7861.94,"text":"那麼當時"},{"start":7861.94,"end":7863.94,"text":"那現在是還有多少位"},{"start":7863.94,"end":7865.94,"text":"還沒有提起非常上述"},{"start":7865.94,"end":7867.94,"text":"還是說全部都已經提起非常上述"},{"start":7867.94,"end":7869.94,"text":"沒有那目前這個"},{"start":7869.94,"end":7871.94,"text":"除了有一位已經執行完畢"},{"start":7871.94,"end":7873.94,"text":"還有一位已經死亡之外"},{"start":7873.94,"end":7875.94,"text":"其他的總長大概提了"},{"start":7875.94,"end":7877.94,"text":"四五位身體非常上述"},{"start":7877.94,"end":7879.94,"text":"那其他的都還在"},{"start":7879.94,"end":7881.94,"text":"檢察總長審核當中"},{"start":7881.94,"end":7883.94,"text":"是不是可以請次長給我一份書面"},{"start":7883.94,"end":7885.94,"text":"的報告就是說是對你們"},{"start":7885.94,"end":7887.94,"text":"現在到底31名"},{"start":7887.94,"end":7889.94,"text":"死求的處理的情況是怎麼樣"},{"start":7889.94,"end":7891.94,"text":"那所以本席先要講就是說是"},{"start":7891.94,"end":7893.94,"text":"因為剛次長也提到"},{"start":7893.94,"end":7895.94,"text":"因為有一名死求已經過世了"},{"start":7895.94,"end":7897.94,"text":"那麼這名死求是"},{"start":7897.94,"end":7899.94,"text":"20多年前曾經犯下戮人"},{"start":7899.94,"end":7901.94,"text":"勒贖私票分屍"},{"start":7901.94,"end":7903.94,"text":"早就被判處死刑定讞"},{"start":7903.94,"end":7905.94,"text":"的受刑人歐陽蓉"},{"start":7905.94,"end":7907.94,"text":"那因為他長期沒有執行死刑"},{"start":7907.94,"end":7909.94,"text":"最後死在這個"},{"start":7909.94,"end":7911.94,"text":"病死獄中可是荒謬的是"},{"start":7911.94,"end":7913.94,"text":"我們檢察總長還必須依法"},{"start":7913.94,"end":7915.94,"text":"為這位已經死亡的"},{"start":7915.94,"end":7917.94,"text":"死刑犯來提起非常上述"},{"start":7919.62,"end":7921.62,"text":"這是不是真的還蠻荒謬的"},{"start":7921.62,"end":7923.62,"text":"他都已經過世了"},{"start":7923.62,"end":7925.62,"text":"理由不是因為他有沒有犯罪"},{"start":7925.62,"end":7927.62,"text":"而是因為現在的113年"},{"start":7927.62,"end":7929.62,"text":"限判字8號"},{"start":7929.62,"end":7931.62,"text":"所要求的一致決"},{"start":7931.62,"end":7933.62,"text":"所以變成說我們的檢察總長還要"},{"start":7933.62,"end":7935.62,"text":"為一位已經病死於獄中的"},{"start":7935.62,"end":7937.62,"text":"死求然後去翻他過去的"},{"start":7937.62,"end":7939.62,"text":"案件看看當時的判決"},{"start":7939.62,"end":7941.62,"text":"書裡面是不是法官一致決"},{"start":7941.62,"end":7943.62,"text":"那本席是認為說"},{"start":7943.62,"end":7945.62,"text":"對於像這樣的一個情況"},{"start":7945.62,"end":7947.62,"text":"就凸顯出113年"},{"start":7947.62,"end":7949.62,"text":"限判字8號的一個荒謬"},{"start":7949.62,"end":7951.62,"text":"他非常在意的是"},{"start":7951.62,"end":7953.62,"text":"程序上面的正義"},{"start":7953.62,"end":7955.62,"text":"可是卻沒有注意到"},{"start":7955.62,"end":7957.62,"text":"所謂的實體的正義"},{"start":7957.62,"end":7959.62,"text":"我們很期待就是國家的"},{"start":7959.62,"end":7961.62,"text":"高階這些法律精英"},{"start":7961.62,"end":7963.62,"text":"應該他要把他的"},{"start":7963.62,"end":7965.62,"text":"心力去投入在去發現"},{"start":7965.62,"end":7967.62,"text":"發現這個真實"},{"start":7967.62,"end":7969.62,"text":"發現這事實證據"},{"start":7969.62,"end":7971.62,"text":"而不是為了這種程序"},{"start":7971.62,"end":7973.62,"text":"上面的這個瑕疵"},{"start":7973.62,"end":7975.62,"text":"然後去翻"},{"start":7975.62,"end":7977.62,"text":"翻舊帳到底當時的"},{"start":7977.62,"end":7979.62,"text":"這個每一審的法官"},{"start":7979.62,"end":7981.62,"text":"是不是都有一致決"},{"start":7981.62,"end":7983.62,"text":"其實這是蠻荒謬的事情"},{"start":7983.62,"end":7985.62,"text":"不知道就是次長對於"},{"start":7985.62,"end":7987.62,"text":"113號的限判字8號"},{"start":7987.62,"end":7989.62,"text":"對於113年限判字8號的判決"},{"start":7989.62,"end":7991.62,"text":"對於你們現在"},{"start":7991.62,"end":7993.62,"text":"高檢署"},{"start":7993.62,"end":7995.62,"text":"實際上的失誤的影響"},{"start":7995.62,"end":7997.62,"text":"有沒有增加你們的一些負擔"},{"start":7997.62,"end":7999.62,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":7999.62,"end":8001.62,"text":"那總長他因為"},{"start":8001.62,"end":8003.62,"text":"18憲法出來了嘛他有憲法"},{"start":8003.62,"end":8005.62,"text":"未接的效力所以就總長來講"},{"start":8005.62,"end":8007.62,"text":"他也是要依照憲法"},{"start":8007.62,"end":8009.62,"text":"去做相關的審核啦"},{"start":8009.62,"end":8011.62,"text":"那當然這個案子他提非常上述說"},{"start":8011.62,"end":8013.62,"text":"最高法院得依法判決嘛"},{"start":8013.62,"end":8015.62,"text":"這是總長跟法官他都要各盡"},{"start":8015.62,"end":8017.62,"text":"他這法律上的職責啦"},{"start":8017.62,"end":8019.62,"text":"那所以如果說我們今天"},{"start":8019.62,"end":8021.62,"text":"講這個狀況如果說我們剛剛講那個"},{"start":8021.62,"end":8023.62,"text":"病史獄中的死刑犯"},{"start":8023.62,"end":8025.62,"text":"然後你們去翻他過去的判決書"},{"start":8025.62,"end":8027.62,"text":"果然發現曾經有一審法院的"},{"start":8027.62,"end":8029.62,"text":"判決書裡面"},{"start":8029.62,"end":8031.62,"text":"然後有一位法官"},{"start":8031.62,"end":8033.62,"text":"他沒有同意"},{"start":8033.62,"end":8035.62,"text":"那所以這案子是要怎麼樣要重審嗎"},{"start":8035.62,"end":8037.62,"text":"按照18憲法8"},{"start":8037.62,"end":8039.62,"text":"他沒有要求這個立審"},{"start":8039.62,"end":8041.62,"text":"每一次他只要最後一次"},{"start":8041.62,"end":8043.62,"text":"最後一次確定審"},{"start":8043.62,"end":8045.62,"text":"只要是最後一次確定審他不是說要立審嗎"},{"start":8045.62,"end":8047.62,"text":"不是不是不是"},{"start":8047.62,"end":8049.62,"text":"所以你們現在只去檢視他最後一次"},{"start":8049.62,"end":8051.62,"text":"最後確定三審說自由"},{"start":8051.62,"end":8053.62,"text":"這個好像跟我對於憲法"},{"start":8053.62,"end":8055.62,"text":"8號的這個理解不太一樣"},{"start":8055.62,"end":8057.62,"text":"不過就是總之啦"},{"start":8057.62,"end":8059.62,"text":"就是對於13年憲法第8號判決"},{"start":8059.62,"end":8061.62,"text":"法務部現在已經進行全面盤點了嗎"},{"start":8061.62,"end":8063.62,"text":"你們現在盤點的進度是如何"},{"start":8063.62,"end":8065.62,"text":"你們現在盤點的進度是如何"},{"start":8065.62,"end":8067.62,"text":"你們現在盤點的進度是如何"},{"start":8067.62,"end":8069.62,"text":"你們現在盤點的進度是如何"},{"start":8069.57,"end":8071.57,"text":"跟憲法8號有關係的"},{"start":8071.57,"end":8073.57,"text":"都是總長在進行判點"},{"start":8073.57,"end":8075.57,"text":"因為這是總長的職責"},{"start":8075.57,"end":8077.57,"text":"總長要不然體態上是總長的職責"},{"start":8077.57,"end":8079.57,"text":"所以總長他是陸續在提"},{"start":8079.57,"end":8081.57,"text":"所以剛才委員有提到有四五件已經提了"},{"start":8081.57,"end":8083.57,"text":"就是他陸續提出來的結果"},{"start":8083.57,"end":8085.57,"text":"好那本席希望說"},{"start":8085.57,"end":8087.57,"text":"可以提供給本席一份說明報告"},{"start":8087.57,"end":8089.57,"text":"我想了解就是說"},{"start":8089.57,"end":8091.57,"text":"到底這個判決的影響"},{"start":8091.57,"end":8093.57,"text":"然後現在這個"},{"start":8093.57,"end":8095.57,"text":"高檢這邊總長這裡他們"},{"start":8095.57,"end":8097.57,"text":"其實因為是代理總長"},{"start":8097.57,"end":8099.57,"text":"現在他們這裡做的情況怎麼樣"},{"start":8099.57,"end":8101.57,"text":"還有講到代理檢察總長"},{"start":8101.57,"end":8103.57,"text":"本席要順便請教就是"},{"start":8103.57,"end":8105.57,"text":"現在總統有在進行"},{"start":8107.05,"end":8109.05,"text":"檢察總長候選人的提名作業嗎"},{"start":8109.05,"end":8111.05,"text":"這部分我是總長的職權"},{"start":8111.05,"end":8113.05,"text":"我不知道"},{"start":8113.05,"end":8115.05,"text":"所以法務部這邊也沒有任何訊息"},{"start":8115.05,"end":8117.05,"text":"沒有"},{"start":8117.05,"end":8119.05,"text":"至少我本人沒有"},{"start":8119.05,"end":8121.05,"text":"本席當然在這邊還是呼籲"},{"start":8121.05,"end":8123.05,"text":"希望來自總統能夠儘速提出"},{"start":8123.05,"end":8125.05,"text":"檢察總長人選的名單"},{"start":8125.05,"end":8127.05,"text":"不要耽誤"},{"start":8127.05,"end":8129.05,"text":"整個檢察總長"},{"start":8129.05,"end":8131.05,"text":"職權的這些行使"},{"start":8131.05,"end":8133.05,"text":"好以上謝謝"},{"start":8134.74,"end":8136.74,"text":"好謝謝歐洲衛"},{"start":8136.74,"end":8138.74,"text":"那我們接下來請張雅玲委員"},{"start":8147.8,"end":8149.8,"text":"好謝謝主席我們邀請司法院秘書長"},{"start":8152.41,"end":8154.41,"text":"請高秘書長謝謝"},{"start":8159.46,"end":8161.46,"text":"好秘書長早安"},{"start":8161.46,"end":8163.46,"text":"那今天是想要跟秘書長請教"},{"start":8163.46,"end":8165.46,"text":"有關於這個被害人訴訟參與制度"},{"start":8165.46,"end":8167.46,"text":"有幾件事情想要請秘書長來釐清"},{"start":8167.46,"end":8169.46,"text":"就是說這一次的幾個刑事"},{"start":8169.46,"end":8171.46,"text":"訴訟法的修正草案都有進一步的"},{"start":8171.46,"end":8175.46,"text":"要提到要擴張訴訟參與人的程序權利"},{"start":8175.46,"end":8177.46,"text":"因為現在我們是可以讓"},{"start":8177.46,"end":8179.46,"text":"訴訟參與人表示意見"},{"start":8179.46,"end":8181.46,"text":"但是現在的版本是希望可以讓他"},{"start":8181.46,"end":8183.46,"text":"可以申請調查證據"},{"start":8183.46,"end":8185.46,"text":"也可以詢問被告"},{"start":8185.46,"end":8187.46,"text":"或者是證人"},{"start":8187.46,"end":8191.46,"text":"那也可以去要求檢察官說明他們的理由"},{"start":8191.46,"end":8193.46,"text":"那我想就是說"},{"start":8193.46,"end":8195.46,"text":"當今天我們要進一步的"},{"start":8195.46,"end":8197.46,"text":"把被害人的權利擴張到"},{"start":8197.46,"end":8201.46,"text":"主動參與證據調查的這個時候呢"},{"start":8201.46,"end":8203.46,"text":"可能就會碰到我們訴訟"},{"start":8203.46,"end":8205.46,"text":"刑事訴訟法裡面的不同的角色的"},{"start":8205.46,"end":8207.46,"text":"一個權限的配置"},{"start":8208.55,"end":8210.55,"text":"那現行制度之下呢"},{"start":8210.55,"end":8212.55,"text":"我們的訴訟參與人其實是可以取得"},{"start":8212.55,"end":8214.55,"text":"卷證資訊"},{"start":8214.55,"end":8216.55,"text":"也可以到庭參與準備程序跟審判"},{"start":8216.55,"end":8218.55,"text":"準備程序跟審判程序"},{"start":8218.55,"end":8222.55,"text":"但是呢在現在的公訴程序裡面呢"},{"start":8222.55,"end":8226.55,"text":"檢察官的工作就是犯罪的追訴以及舉證的責任"},{"start":8226.55,"end":8228.55,"text":"所以這兩個角色其實是有差別的"},{"start":8228.55,"end":8232.55,"text":"特別是檢察官是具有國家刑事犯罪"},{"start":8232.55,"end":8234.55,"text":"追訴權的還有這個客觀的義務"},{"start":8234.55,"end":8236.55,"text":"那被害人呢"},{"start":8236.55,"end":8238.55,"text":"現在就如果讓他們參與的話"},{"start":8238.55,"end":8240.55,"text":"可能會有自己的個別利益"},{"start":8240.55,"end":8242.55,"text":"也可能會有對於自己案件"},{"start":8242.55,"end":8245.55,"text":"事實被告責任以及量刑的一個看法"},{"start":8245.55,"end":8247.55,"text":"所以今天如果訴訟參與人"},{"start":8247.55,"end":8249.55,"text":"可以申請調查證據"},{"start":8249.55,"end":8252.55,"text":"兩邊對某一項的證據是不是應該有調查的必要"},{"start":8252.55,"end":8254.55,"text":"某一個事實是否重要"},{"start":8254.55,"end":8256.55,"text":"可能都會有不同的判斷"},{"start":8256.55,"end":8258.55,"text":"所以我想我今天看到司法院的一個書面"},{"start":8258.55,"end":8260.55,"text":"報告其實立場寫得非常清楚啦"},{"start":8260.55,"end":8263.55,"text":"就是說這個審、檢、辯的三面關係"},{"start":8263.55,"end":8264.55,"text":"是現行的一個制度"},{"start":8264.55,"end":8267.55,"text":"也是非常重要的一個訴訟結構"},{"start":8267.55,"end":8270.55,"text":"所以我想請教訴訟這個秘書長說明"},{"start":8270.55,"end":8273.55,"text":"部分的提案要進一步的賦予訴訟參與人"},{"start":8273.55,"end":8276.55,"text":"證據調查、申請權、證人、發問權"},{"start":8276.55,"end":8278.55,"text":"甚至是詢問被告的權利"},{"start":8278.55,"end":8282.55,"text":"那司法院認為被害人訴訟參與權的界線"},{"start":8282.55,"end":8284.55,"text":"到底應該畫在哪裡"},{"start":8284.55,"end":8286.55,"text":"好如果說今天"},{"start":8287.55,"end":8290.55,"text":"檢察官認為有些證據沒有必要調查的條件"},{"start":8290.55,"end":8292.55,"text":"可是被害人又認為有的時候"},{"start":8292.55,"end":8294.55,"text":"那這時候又應該要怎麼辦呢"},{"start":8294.55,"end":8296.55,"text":"好所以"},{"start":8296.49,"end":8298.49,"text":"這個是不是可以請這個秘書長說明一下"},{"start":8299.53,"end":8301.53,"text":"我們在那個書面報告"},{"start":8301.53,"end":8302.53,"text":"也已經陳述得很清楚"},{"start":8302.53,"end":8303.53,"text":"沒有錯"},{"start":8303.53,"end":8305.53,"text":"因為被害人他是證人"},{"start":8305.53,"end":8308.53,"text":"所以我們在書面報告裡面也提到"},{"start":8308.53,"end":8313.53,"text":"被害人最重要是要由檢察官來負責照護義務"},{"start":8313.53,"end":8318.53,"text":"那被害人如果再讓他可以申請調查證據"},{"start":8318.53,"end":8320.53,"text":"會不會跟檢察官衝突"},{"start":8320.53,"end":8321.53,"text":"會不會矛盾"},{"start":8321.53,"end":8323.53,"text":"會不會不一致"},{"start":8323.53,"end":8327.53,"text":"這個在整個訴訟程序的進行一定會混亂"},{"start":8327.53,"end":8329.53,"text":"那同樣的結論"},{"start":8329.53,"end":8333.53,"text":"也是一樣會不會跟檢察官"},{"start":8333.53,"end":8335.53,"text":"這個彼此之間的矛盾"},{"start":8335.53,"end":8337.53,"text":"還有一個"},{"start":8337.46,"end":8339.46,"text":"一個安置院裡面會有很多證人"},{"start":8339.46,"end":8342.46,"text":"因為被害人也是證人之一"},{"start":8342.46,"end":8345.46,"text":"他對其他證人他可以解問嗎"},{"start":8345.46,"end":8347.46,"text":"這個是所以我們是希望"},{"start":8347.46,"end":8351.46,"text":"建議一定要審慎的去評估"},{"start":8351.46,"end":8355.46,"text":"那因為那委員提案裡面所"},{"start":8355.46,"end":8357.46,"text":"這個被害影響陳述"},{"start":8357.46,"end":8359.46,"text":"其實這個是很重要"},{"start":8359.46,"end":8360.46,"text":"這可以列入"},{"start":8360.46,"end":8365.46,"text":"那其實我們現在訴訟法規定的被害人參與"},{"start":8365.46,"end":8367.46,"text":"他已經可以獲知"},{"start":8368.28,"end":8370.28,"text":"這個卷證資訊"},{"start":8370.28,"end":8373.28,"text":"他也可以倒停陳述"},{"start":8373.28,"end":8376.28,"text":"那所以在調查證據"},{"start":8376.28,"end":8379.28,"text":"跟結問這一塊一定要審慎評估"},{"start":8379.28,"end":8380.28,"text":"好了解"},{"start":8380.28,"end":8382.28,"text":"那其實我下一個問題就是想要請教"},{"start":8382.28,"end":8383.28,"text":"因為就是您剛剛有提到"},{"start":8383.28,"end":8386.28,"text":"訴訟參與人同時也是被害人以及證人嗎"},{"start":8386.28,"end":8387.28,"text":"對不對"},{"start":8387.28,"end":8389.28,"text":"那這個被害人"},{"start":8389.28,"end":8391.28,"text":"他並不是程序的參與人"},{"start":8391.28,"end":8392.28,"text":"在很多的案件裡面"},{"start":8392.28,"end":8395.28,"text":"他也是犯罪事實非常重要的一個證據來源"},{"start":8395.28,"end":8397.28,"text":"特別是像是性侵害"},{"start":8397.28,"end":8399.28,"text":"家庭暴力這些案件裡面"},{"start":8399.28,"end":8403.28,"text":"他被害人的證書本身就有可能是法院來認定"},{"start":8403.28,"end":8405.28,"text":"是不是犯罪事實的一個部分"},{"start":8405.28,"end":8409.28,"text":"那如果同一個人一方面是案件的重要證人"},{"start":8409.28,"end":8413.28,"text":"那他又可以用訴訟參與人的身分來閱卷"},{"start":8413.28,"end":8415.28,"text":"聽取其他證人的陳述"},{"start":8415.28,"end":8417.28,"text":"知道被告的答辯"},{"start":8417.28,"end":8420.28,"text":"那法院後續在評價他的證言的時候"},{"start":8420.28,"end":8421.28,"text":"就必須要去確認"},{"start":8421.28,"end":8424.28,"text":"到底是他的陳述來自於自身"},{"start":8424.28,"end":8426.28,"text":"對於原本事件的記憶"},{"start":8426.28,"end":8430.28,"text":"還是他看了很多訴訟資訊之後產生的記憶"},{"start":8430.28,"end":8431.28,"text":"對不對"},{"start":8433.14,"end":8434.14,"text":"委員報告"},{"start":8434.14,"end":8436.14,"text":"委員問到一個這個醫學上的重點"},{"start":8437.11,"end":8438.11,"text":"Suchi"},{"start":8439.58,"end":8440.58,"text":"自己創造的記憶"},{"start":8440.58,"end":8444.58,"text":"其實所以對於他當然是證人"},{"start":8444.58,"end":8447.58,"text":"那他也是被害人"},{"start":8447.58,"end":8450.58,"text":"那法官他在訴訟指揮上就要去注意"},{"start":8450.58,"end":8454.58,"text":"同樣的對於被害人他的陳述"},{"start":8454.58,"end":8456.58,"text":"跟他在證人的陳述"},{"start":8456.58,"end":8458.58,"text":"法官你在認定上"},{"start":8458.58,"end":8461.58,"text":"這個就是法官非常重要的職責"},{"start":8461.58,"end":8463.58,"text":"一定要讓他陳述"},{"start":8463.58,"end":8465.58,"text":"可是判斷的是法官"},{"start":8465.58,"end":8467.58,"text":"這是整個捐贈資料去判斷"},{"start":8467.58,"end":8468.58,"text":"所以"},{"start":8470.34,"end":8474.34,"text":"那個被告的被害人他的陳述這個絕對要存在"},{"start":8474.34,"end":8476.34,"text":"可是同樣的"},{"start":8476.34,"end":8479.34,"text":"要不要讓他判斷證據跟絕問"},{"start":8479.34,"end":8480.34,"text":"這個可能真的"},{"start":8480.34,"end":8482.34,"text":"我想這個就是剛剛我們講的一個重點"},{"start":8482.34,"end":8484.34,"text":"就是說這法官就會無法去判斷"},{"start":8484.34,"end":8486.34,"text":"這到底是基於自己的經驗"},{"start":8486.34,"end":8490.34,"text":"還是因為看了太多的訴訟的一些證據之後產生的"},{"start":8490.34,"end":8493.34,"text":"這就會造成我們在實務上面的一些困難"},{"start":8493.34,"end":8494.34,"text":"那您認為"},{"start":8494.34,"end":8499.34,"text":"因為現在有版本是提出這樣子的一個修正的版本"},{"start":8499.34,"end":8502.34,"text":"那您認為在實務上面有沒有辦法避免呢"},{"start":8503.34,"end":8505.34,"text":"是有辦法經過設計程序上面來避免的嗎"},{"start":8505.34,"end":8507.34,"text":"還是你覺得是無法的"},{"start":8507.34,"end":8508.34,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":8509.37,"end":8510.37,"text":"程序上"},{"start":8510.37,"end":8513.37,"text":"因為他訴訟前調查證據交誤結論"},{"start":8513.37,"end":8514.37,"text":"就這樣一直走一直走"},{"start":8516.3,"end":8520.3,"text":"被害人他申請到的證據跟檢察官混亂的時候"},{"start":8520.3,"end":8522.3,"text":"甚至打亂的檢察官"},{"start":8522.3,"end":8526.3,"text":"他這個證明犯罪事實的證據策略的時候"},{"start":8528.23,"end":8530.23,"text":"會造成程序的混亂"},{"start":8530.23,"end":8532.23,"text":"法官也會跟著混亂"},{"start":8532.23,"end":8534.23,"text":"那當然法官還是要判斷"},{"start":8534.98,"end":8536.98,"text":"如果立法是這樣通過的話"},{"start":8536.98,"end":8538.98,"text":"法官還是要判斷"},{"start":8538.98,"end":8539.98,"text":"可是"},{"start":8540.2,"end":8542.2,"text":"他所造成的程序擁藏"},{"start":8543.44,"end":8545.44,"text":"我相信是可以預測的"},{"start":8547.17,"end":8548.17,"text":"程序擁藏"},{"start":8548.17,"end":8551.17,"text":"以及我們可能在法官做判斷的時候"},{"start":8551.17,"end":8553.17,"text":"會造成非常大的困難嘛"},{"start":8553.17,"end":8554.17,"text":"對不對"},{"start":8554.17,"end":8556.17,"text":"好那我也想請教一下"},{"start":8556.17,"end":8558.17,"text":"就是說被告的防禦權這次也有提到"},{"start":8558.17,"end":8560.17,"text":"就是原則上對於"},{"start":8560.17,"end":8562.17,"text":"檢察官起訴的犯罪事實"},{"start":8562.17,"end":8564.17,"text":"是提我們現在是"},{"start":8564.17,"end":8570.17,"text":"被告的原則上是針對檢察官起訴的犯罪事實及提出的證據來進行防禦"},{"start":8570.17,"end":8573.17,"text":"但是如果未來訴訟參議員可以另外提出證據申請"},{"start":8573.17,"end":8575.17,"text":"調查申請"},{"start":8575.17,"end":8578.17,"text":"那就可能會出現檢察官和訴訟參議員"},{"start":8578.17,"end":8580.17,"text":"對於不同的待證事實"},{"start":8580.17,"end":8582.17,"text":"會有不同的證據主張"},{"start":8582.17,"end":8586.17,"text":"特別是如果一個案件有超過一個以上的被害人的時候"},{"start":8586.17,"end":8588.17,"text":"那每一個被害的人"},{"start":8588.17,"end":8590.17,"text":"他們要如何的來申請這些證據"},{"start":8590.17,"end":8593.17,"text":"那可能就會造成一個非常混亂的問題"},{"start":8593.17,"end":8595.17,"text":"那特別是說"},{"start":8595.17,"end":8598.17,"text":"如果檢察官認為某一件事情跟犯罪成立沒有關係"},{"start":8598.17,"end":8599.17,"text":"所以沒有調查"},{"start":8599.17,"end":8601.17,"text":"但是訴訟參議員認為非常重要"},{"start":8601.17,"end":8604.17,"text":"那就因此另外申請調查"},{"start":8604.17,"end":8606.17,"text":"MING PAO CANADA .COM"},{"start":8605.5,"end":8608.5,"text":"或者是說檢察官對於證人的結論已經結束"},{"start":8608.5,"end":8611.5,"text":"可是訴訟參議員又從另外一個角度提出一系列的問題"},{"start":8611.5,"end":8614.5,"text":"那面對訴訟的供訪範圍可能就會非常非常的不一樣"},{"start":8614.5,"end":8617.5,"text":"那所以我不曉得說對於這件事情的話"},{"start":8617.5,"end":8621.5,"text":"您認為是有辦法透過程序來保障一個供訪的平衡嗎"},{"start":8621.5,"end":8623.5,"text":"還是您認為基本上是沒有辦法的"},{"start":8623.5,"end":8625.5,"text":"那幾乎是不可能"},{"start":8625.5,"end":8627.5,"text":"我如果賦予他權力"},{"start":8627.5,"end":8629.5,"text":"他當然可以刑事"},{"start":8629.5,"end":8632.5,"text":"那對檢察官還有另外對被告"},{"start":8632.5,"end":8634.5,"text":"因為我們刑事訴訟"},{"start":8634.5,"end":8636.5,"text":"訴訟三面關係"},{"start":8636.5,"end":8639.5,"text":"法官、檢方、檢辯"},{"start":8639.5,"end":8643.5,"text":"那檢察官他要負責照護被害人"},{"start":8644.18,"end":8647.18,"text":"其實被害人所有要申請調查的證據"},{"start":8647.18,"end":8650.18,"text":"應該是向檢察官提出"},{"start":8650.18,"end":8653.18,"text":"他要結問他也可以向檢察官申請"},{"start":8653.18,"end":8655.18,"text":"檢察官要盡到照護義務"},{"start":8655.18,"end":8657.18,"text":"然後在整個程序上"},{"start":8657.18,"end":8662.18,"text":"因為檢察官是這個要負責這個起訴"},{"start":8662.18,"end":8665.18,"text":"然後要將來在公訴程序上"},{"start":8665.18,"end":8667.18,"text":"要讓被告定罪"},{"start":8667.18,"end":8669.18,"text":"所以他有一定的"},{"start":8670.29,"end":8672.29,"text":"證據調查結問的策略"},{"start":8672.87,"end":8676.87,"text":"那當被害人他有申請調查權"},{"start":8676.87,"end":8678.87,"text":"還有結問權的話"},{"start":8679.47,"end":8681.47,"text":"我們下次再見"},{"start":8682.09,"end":8684.09,"text":"很難不發生混亂的狀況"},{"start":8684.09,"end":8687.09,"text":"對,所以聽起來還是回到就是說"},{"start":8687.09,"end":8690.09,"text":"其實根本的原因就是我們剛剛就討論到的"},{"start":8690.09,"end":8691.09,"text":"就是這整個程序上面"},{"start":8691.09,"end":8694.09,"text":"跟這三個的架構關係會完全錯亂"},{"start":8694.09,"end":8697.09,"text":"那可能會造成實務上面的審判"},{"start":8697.09,"end":8699.09,"text":"非常的困難去判斷"},{"start":8699.09,"end":8701.09,"text":"而且程序上面非常籠場對不對"},{"start":8701.09,"end":8704.09,"text":"所以真正的被害人如果要得到他的爭議的時間"},{"start":8704.09,"end":8706.09,"text":"可能也會等待更漫長"},{"start":8706.09,"end":8708.09,"text":"好,那這個部分我想再"},{"start":8708.09,"end":8709.09,"text":"這部分我就先問到這裡"},{"start":8709.09,"end":8712.09,"text":"那我還有一個有關於法服的問題想要請教"},{"start":8713.15,"end":8715.15,"text":"就是因為我上個禮拜有看到有委員"},{"start":8715.15,"end":8717.15,"text":"國民黨的委員要求法服不得替"},{"start":8717.15,"end":8721.15,"text":"特定幾類重大犯罪的加害人辯護"},{"start":8721.15,"end":8726.15,"text":"那似乎好像也有跟司法院取得一些共識"},{"start":8726.15,"end":8728.15,"text":"所以我今天想要釐清一下"},{"start":8728.15,"end":8731.15,"text":"就是說現行的這個刑事訴訟法"},{"start":8731.68,"end":8733.68,"text":"第31條就有規定"},{"start":8733.68,"end":8736.68,"text":"最輕本刑三年以上的有期徒刑的案件"},{"start":8736.68,"end":8739.68,"text":"本來就屬於強制辯護的案件"},{"start":8739.68,"end":8741.68,"text":"如果他沒有辦法自己請律師的話"},{"start":8741.68,"end":8745.68,"text":"法院依法就必須指定公社的辯護人"},{"start":8745.68,"end":8746.68,"text":"或是其他律師來幫他辯護"},{"start":8746.68,"end":8750.68,"text":"那這個強制的辯護是從民國24年"},{"start":8750.68,"end":8752.68,"text":"就已經有的既有制度"},{"start":8752.68,"end":8755.68,"text":"也就是說這個制度已經差不多要100年了"},{"start":8755.68,"end":8757.68,"text":"差不多100年了"},{"start":8757.68,"end":8758.68,"text":"像是殺人獨家致死"},{"start":8758.68,"end":8761.68,"text":"強制性交跟重大虐童致死自重傷的案件"},{"start":8761.68,"end":8764.68,"text":"本來就有相當的一部分是屬於強制辯護的部分"},{"start":8764.68,"end":8768.68,"text":"所以今天即使是法服不幫他辯論好了"},{"start":8768.68,"end":8770.68,"text":"我們還是要透過公社辯護人"},{"start":8770.68,"end":8772.68,"text":"或是幫他找到辯護人"},{"start":8772.68,"end":8774.68,"text":"才能夠讓審判繼續進行嘛對不對"},{"start":8776.04,"end":8778.04,"text":"所以呢我想問就是說"},{"start":8778.04,"end":8780.04,"text":"你們自己過去有公開表示說"},{"start":8780.04,"end":8783.04,"text":"其實現在公社辯護制度"},{"start":8783.04,"end":8785.04,"text":"一直都有人力缺口的問題"},{"start":8785.04,"end":8787.04,"text":"我們找不到人"},{"start":8787.04,"end":8789.04,"text":"所以如果今天依法我們要"},{"start":8789.04,"end":8791.04,"text":"有幫他有公社辯護人"},{"start":8791.04,"end":8792.04,"text":"我們要強制辯護"},{"start":8792.04,"end":8796.04,"text":"可是我們又不讓法服來去派的時候"},{"start":8796.04,"end":8798.04,"text":"那到底我們要怎麼進行這些案件"},{"start":8798.04,"end":8801.04,"text":"這些案件還能夠繼續進行嗎"},{"start":8801.04,"end":8802.04,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":8802.04,"end":8805.04,"text":"強制辯護並不等同於法服"},{"start":8805.04,"end":8806.04,"text":"強制辯護一定要存在"},{"start":8806.04,"end":8808.04,"text":"這是這個正當法律程序"},{"start":8808.04,"end":8812.04,"text":"那只是強制辯護這件事是誰要來擔當"},{"start":8812.04,"end":8816.04,"text":"早期就是律師或者公社辯護人"},{"start":8816.04,"end":8818.04,"text":"那後來有法服成立"},{"start":8818.04,"end":8822.04,"text":"就很多案件就慢慢派給法服"},{"start":8822.04,"end":8823.04,"text":"對啊我的問題就是"},{"start":8823.04,"end":8825.04,"text":"問題是公社辯護人現在沒有人啊"},{"start":8825.04,"end":8828.04,"text":"那當然這個是一個國家政策"},{"start":8828.04,"end":8831.04,"text":"法服到底他負擔的責任"},{"start":8831.04,"end":8834.04,"text":"負擔的工作範圍要多大"},{"start":8834.21,"end":8836.21,"text":"這是一個國家政策"},{"start":8836.21,"end":8838.21,"text":"當然沒有法服"},{"start":8839.05,"end":8840.05,"text":"有議辯啊"},{"start":8840.05,"end":8841.05,"text":"古時候沒有法服"},{"start":8841.05,"end":8843.05,"text":"也是有義務辯護人啊"},{"start":8843.05,"end":8847.05,"text":"義務辯護人他也是要承擔強制辯護案件"},{"start":8847.05,"end":8853.05,"text":"那如果這一次這個委員有要求"},{"start":8853.05,"end":8858.05,"text":"法服對某些案件不能夠這個辯"},{"start":8858.05,"end":8859.05,"text":"不能用強制辯護"},{"start":8859.05,"end":8863.05,"text":"對不能請法服為辯護律師的話"},{"start":8863.05,"end":8866.05,"text":"那一定會走下一辯"},{"start":8866.56,"end":8867.56,"text":"義務辯護"},{"start":8867.56,"end":8868.56,"text":"我知道"},{"start":8868.56,"end":8869.56,"text":"對 秘書長好"},{"start":8869.56,"end":8870.56,"text":"因為我現在的問題就是說"},{"start":8870.56,"end":8873.56,"text":"今天如果我們真的要要求法服"},{"start":8873.56,"end":8875.56,"text":"不去做強制辯護"},{"start":8875.56,"end":8878.56,"text":"那到底因為自己公社辯護制度長期缺人"},{"start":8878.56,"end":8880.56,"text":"這也是你們自己之前說的嘛"},{"start":8880.56,"end":8882.56,"text":"所以如果說不走法服"},{"start":8882.56,"end":8883.56,"text":"就一定是走公社辯護人"},{"start":8883.56,"end":8885.56,"text":"或是自己再去找律師嘛對不對"},{"start":8885.56,"end":8886.56,"text":"還有一個義務辯護"},{"start":8886.56,"end":8887.56,"text":"好義務辯護"},{"start":8887.56,"end":8889.56,"text":"那我問你就是說你們現在義務辯護"},{"start":8889.56,"end":8892.56,"text":"或者是公社辯護人真的有辦法去承接"},{"start":8892.56,"end":8894.56,"text":"現在這些強制辯護的能量嗎"},{"start":8894.56,"end":8898.56,"text":"那如果法服法這樣修正通過"},{"start":8898.56,"end":8899.56,"text":"那當然"},{"start":8900.5,"end":8905.5,"text":"就是要去完成這個兼具的任務"},{"start":8905.5,"end":8906.5,"text":"所以你的意思是說"},{"start":8906.5,"end":8907.5,"text":"你們是找到人就對了"},{"start":8907.5,"end":8909.5,"text":"現場的公法院"},{"start":8909.5,"end":8911.5,"text":"地方法院各地方法院"},{"start":8911.5,"end":8912.5,"text":"都找到人的意思就對了"},{"start":8912.5,"end":8914.5,"text":"那其實我們不是我們找人"},{"start":8914.5,"end":8916.5,"text":"這是要用錢"},{"start":8916.5,"end":8917.5,"text":"因為律師公會"},{"start":8917.5,"end":8919.5,"text":"其實那個義務辯護"},{"start":8919.5,"end":8922.5,"text":"是跟律師公會彼此之間建立的"},{"start":8922.5,"end":8924.5,"text":"我想今天秘書長抱歉"},{"start":8924.5,"end":8926.5,"text":"因為我時間真的很有限"},{"start":8926.5,"end":8928.5,"text":"我其實今天只想要確認一個"},{"start":8928.5,"end":8930.5,"text":"就是義務辯護的問題"},{"start":8930.5,"end":8931.5,"text":"就是說今天法服"},{"start":8931.5,"end":8932.5,"text":"如果真的要修法"},{"start":8932.5,"end":8934.5,"text":"讓他不能做強制辯護的話"},{"start":8934.5,"end":8935.5,"text":"我們到底有沒有人去"},{"start":8935.5,"end":8937.5,"text":"因為這是一法規定"},{"start":8937.5,"end":8939.5,"text":"就是你今天在這31條裡面的規定"},{"start":8939.5,"end":8941.5,"text":"就是一定某些特別的案情"},{"start":8941.5,"end":8943.5,"text":"一定要有公社辯護人"},{"start":8943.5,"end":8945.5,"text":"或是就是有人幫他辯護對不對"},{"start":8945.5,"end":8947.5,"text":"這是法的規定就是要這樣做"},{"start":8947.5,"end":8949.5,"text":"所以如果說今天我們要這樣修"},{"start":8949.5,"end":8951.5,"text":"我們就要來考慮現場"},{"start":8951.5,"end":8952.5,"text":"到底找不找得到人"},{"start":8952.5,"end":8953.5,"text":"如果找不到人"},{"start":8953.5,"end":8954.5,"text":"他會造成什麼樣的問題"},{"start":8954.5,"end":8955.5,"text":"就是我們的審判沒有辦法繼續進行"},{"start":8955.5,"end":8957.5,"text":"審判不能繼續進行的時候"},{"start":8957.5,"end":8959.5,"text":"那你跟家屬的正義又是如何被保障呢"},{"start":8959.5,"end":8961.5,"text":"我簡單的問題就是在這裡"},{"start":8961.5,"end":8963.5,"text":"就如同委員講的"},{"start":8963.5,"end":8965.5,"text":"當法服不能接這些案件的時候"},{"start":8965.5,"end":8967.5,"text":"就是走向義務辯護"},{"start":8967.5,"end":8969.5,"text":"其實各法院都有義務辯護人"},{"start":8969.5,"end":8971.5,"text":"因為我們公社辯護人不足"},{"start":8971.5,"end":8974.5,"text":"那法服也不是能夠因應所有案件"},{"start":8974.5,"end":8976.5,"text":"也不是符合所有案件"},{"start":8976.5,"end":8978.5,"text":"法服這是用錢的問題"},{"start":8978.5,"end":8980.5,"text":"你錢要花在"},{"start":8982.21,"end":8984.21,"text":"不好意思 因為我想確定"},{"start":8984.21,"end":8985.21,"text":"就是一件事情"},{"start":8985.21,"end":8987.21,"text":"錢到底能不能找得到人"},{"start":8987.21,"end":8988.21,"text":"這是一個很大的問號"},{"start":8988.21,"end":8990.21,"text":"現在我們光錢很多地方都找不到人"},{"start":8990.21,"end":8991.21,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":8991.21,"end":8992.21,"text":"我覺得就是"},{"start":8992.21,"end":8994.21,"text":"如果我們今天往這個方向修法的話"},{"start":8994.21,"end":8995.21,"text":"我們就是要回到實務上面"},{"start":8995.21,"end":8997.21,"text":"到底會產生什麼樣子的後果"},{"start":8997.21,"end":8999.21,"text":"就像我們前面在討論這個刑事訴訟法"},{"start":8999.21,"end":9001.21,"text":"要去做修正的一樣"},{"start":9001.21,"end":9003.21,"text":"我們實務上到底會造成什麼後果"},{"start":9003.21,"end":9004.21,"text":"大家才能夠審慎的思考"},{"start":9004.21,"end":9005.21,"text":"我們要不要這樣修"},{"start":9005.21,"end":9007.21,"text":"好 那再來下一個東西就是說"},{"start":9007.21,"end":9009.21,"text":"在法服的這個部分"},{"start":9009.21,"end":9010.21,"text":"我們要怎麼做"},{"start":9010.21,"end":9011.21,"text":"我們要怎麼做"},{"start":9011.21,"end":9012.21,"text":"我們要怎麼做"},{"start":9012.21,"end":9013.21,"text":"我們要怎麼做"},{"start":9013.21,"end":9014.21,"text":"我們要怎麼做"},{"start":9014.21,"end":9015.21,"text":"我們要怎麼做"},{"start":9015.21,"end":9016.21,"text":"我們要怎麼做"},{"start":9016.21,"end":9017.21,"text":"我們要怎麼做"},{"start":9017.21,"end":9018.21,"text":"我們要怎麼做"},{"start":9018.21,"end":9019.21,"text":"我們要怎麼做"},{"start":9019.21,"end":9020.21,"text":"我們要怎麼做"},{"start":9020.21,"end":9021.21,"text":"我們要怎麼做"},{"start":9021.21,"end":9022.21,"text":"我們要怎麼做"},{"start":9022.21,"end":9023.21,"text":"我們要怎麼做"},{"start":9023.21,"end":9024.21,"text":"我們要怎麼做"},{"start":9024.21,"end":9025.21,"text":"我們要怎麼做"},{"start":9025.21,"end":9026.21,"text":"我們要怎麼做"},{"start":9026.21,"end":9027.21,"text":"我們要怎麼做"},{"start":9027.21,"end":9028.21,"text":"我們要怎麼做"},{"start":9028.21,"end":9029.21,"text":"我們要怎麼做"},{"start":9029.21,"end":9030.21,"text":"我們要怎麼做"},{"start":9030.21,"end":9031.21,"text":"我們要怎麼做"},{"start":9031.21,"end":9032.21,"text":"我們要怎麼做"},{"start":9032.21,"end":9033.21,"text":"我們要怎麼做"},{"start":9033.21,"end":9034.21,"text":"我們要怎麼做"},{"start":9034.21,"end":9035.21,"text":"我們要怎麼做"},{"start":9035.21,"end":9036.21,"text":"我們要怎麼做"},{"start":9036.21,"end":9037.21,"text":"我們要怎麼做"},{"start":9037.21,"end":9038.21,"text":"我們要怎麼做"},{"start":9010.32,"end":9011.32,"text":"法服的意義"},{"start":9011.32,"end":9012.32,"text":"本來就不是先判定"},{"start":9012.32,"end":9013.32,"text":"一個人到底值不值得幫"},{"start":9013.32,"end":9014.32,"text":"而是確保"},{"start":9014.32,"end":9016.32,"text":"法院在判一個人有罪之前"},{"start":9016.32,"end":9018.32,"text":"可以把他有利的事實"},{"start":9018.32,"end":9019.32,"text":"跟法律的問題"},{"start":9019.32,"end":9021.32,"text":"完整的提出來"},{"start":9021.32,"end":9022.32,"text":"這是法服"},{"start":9022.32,"end":9024.32,"text":"我們當時的一個設計"},{"start":9024.32,"end":9026.32,"text":"像是我現在舉了兩個案例"},{"start":9026.32,"end":9028.32,"text":"就是過去的王光祿案"},{"start":9028.32,"end":9030.32,"text":"原本都已經被判刑確定了"},{"start":9030.32,"end":9032.32,"text":"可是在法服律師團的協助之下"},{"start":9032.32,"end":9034.32,"text":"經過後續的就計程序"},{"start":9034.32,"end":9035.32,"text":"他最後被判無罪"},{"start":9035.32,"end":9036.32,"text":"那法服自己"},{"start":9036.32,"end":9038.32,"text":"今年也有一個實際的案例"},{"start":9038.32,"end":9041.32,"text":"我們一開始會認為他是詐欺共犯"},{"start":9042.32,"end":9044.32,"text":"後來大家去了解之後"},{"start":9044.32,"end":9046.32,"text":"發現他是一個重度聽覺障礙者"},{"start":9046.32,"end":9048.32,"text":"從Line的對話裡面"},{"start":9048.32,"end":9049.32,"text":"好像他跟人家一問一答"},{"start":9049.32,"end":9051.32,"text":"也確實去超商領過包裹"},{"start":9051.32,"end":9054.32,"text":"甚至對方也答應要給他50萬的報酬"},{"start":9054.32,"end":9056.32,"text":"所以直接看這些書面文字"},{"start":9056.32,"end":9057.32,"text":"就覺得他是個詐欺共犯"},{"start":9057.32,"end":9059.32,"text":"但是經過了解之後"},{"start":9059.32,"end":9061.32,"text":"才發現一個重度的聽覺障礙者"},{"start":9061.32,"end":9064.32,"text":"對於文字語意跟資訊的理解"},{"start":9064.32,"end":9067.32,"text":"其實是不能用一般人的標準去推論"},{"start":9068.32,"end":9070.32,"text":"所以不能夠因為犯罪類型"},{"start":9070.32,"end":9072.32,"text":"或是社會觀感"},{"start":9072.32,"end":9074.32,"text":"就認為這一些法律輔助案"},{"start":9074.32,"end":9076.32,"text":"沒有協助的必要"},{"start":9076.32,"end":9078.32,"text":"這是我的想法"},{"start":9078.32,"end":9081.32,"text":"因為從過去太多的案件裡面"},{"start":9081.32,"end":9083.32,"text":"我們都看到了這些問題"},{"start":9083.32,"end":9084.32,"text":"所以我是希望說"},{"start":9085.56,"end":9087.56,"text":"您是不是可以直接告訴我"},{"start":9087.56,"end":9089.56,"text":"如果說我們今天法服務"},{"start":9089.56,"end":9091.56,"text":"要往這個方向修正的話"},{"start":9091.56,"end":9093.56,"text":"那我們的公社辯護人到底"},{"start":9093.56,"end":9095.56,"text":"或是你剛講的議辯好了"},{"start":9095.56,"end":9099.56,"text":"到底能不能解決找得到人的這個問題"},{"start":9099.56,"end":9101.56,"text":"因為說沒有人也是你們說的啊"},{"start":9102.05,"end":9103.05,"text":"你跟委員報告"},{"start":9103.05,"end":9105.05,"text":"是沒有錢不是沒有人"},{"start":9105.58,"end":9107.58,"text":"義務辯護就是要錢"},{"start":9107.47,"end":9109.47,"text":"其實大家都知道"},{"start":9109.47,"end":9110.47,"text":"現在歷史很多"},{"start":9110.47,"end":9111.47,"text":"他願不願意"},{"start":9111.47,"end":9112.47,"text":"好 沒關係"},{"start":9112.47,"end":9113.47,"text":"我這樣聽起來就是說"},{"start":9113.47,"end":9114.47,"text":"只要有錢你們就找得到人"},{"start":9114.47,"end":9115.47,"text":"對嗎"},{"start":9115.47,"end":9116.47,"text":"沒有 就有議辯"},{"start":9117.48,"end":9118.48,"text":"對 要去找得到人啊"},{"start":9118.48,"end":9119.48,"text":"議辯也是要找啊"},{"start":9119.48,"end":9120.48,"text":"不是嗎"},{"start":9120.48,"end":9121.48,"text":"對 義務辯護就是在"},{"start":9121.48,"end":9123.48,"text":"律師公會一大堆"},{"start":9123.48,"end":9124.48,"text":"不能講一大堆"},{"start":9124.48,"end":9127.48,"text":"很多律師都有登記"},{"start":9127.48,"end":9129.48,"text":"他們願不願意接啊"},{"start":9129.48,"end":9130.48,"text":"其實這個各法院的"},{"start":9130.48,"end":9132.48,"text":"義務辯護是存在的喔"},{"start":9132.48,"end":9134.48,"text":"不是只有法服"},{"start":9134.48,"end":9135.48,"text":"我知道我知道"},{"start":9135.48,"end":9136.48,"text":"我現在的問題就是說"},{"start":9136.48,"end":9137.48,"text":"但是我覺得這個東西"},{"start":9137.48,"end":9138.48,"text":"要不要往這個方向修法"},{"start":9138.48,"end":9139.48,"text":"我覺得司法院自己的立場"},{"start":9139.48,"end":9141.48,"text":"跟態度也要清楚啦"},{"start":9141.48,"end":9143.48,"text":"法服到的就要這樣修"},{"start":9143.48,"end":9145.48,"text":"我們要有辯護員"},{"start":9145.48,"end":9146.48,"text":"這個是最重要"},{"start":9148.2,"end":9149.2,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":9152.12,"end":9154.12,"text":"好 那麼我現在先"},{"start":9154.12,"end":9156.12,"text":"做會議程序的宣告"},{"start":9156.12,"end":9158.12,"text":"因為現在已經超過11點了"},{"start":9158.12,"end":9160.12,"text":"那待會就在審委員"},{"start":9160.12,"end":9162.12,"text":"審發會委員巡達完畢之後"},{"start":9162.12,"end":9163.12,"text":"我們就休息5分鐘"},{"start":9163.12,"end":9164.12,"text":"好 然後"},{"start":9166.11,"end":9167.11,"text":"再見 往事結果議員"},{"start":9168.47,"end":9169.47,"text":"可以嗎 就是因為"},{"start":9169.47,"end":9171.47,"text":"大家去上了洗手間"},{"start":9171.47,"end":9174.47,"text":"那麼休息5分鐘之後"},{"start":9174.47,"end":9177.47,"text":"我們再繼續後續的巡達"},{"start":9177.47,"end":9178.47,"text":"那我們現在就先請"},{"start":9178.47,"end":9180.47,"text":"審發委員來進行巡達"},{"start":9188.64,"end":9190.64,"text":"好 主席我們請秘書長"},{"start":9190.97,"end":9191.97,"text":"好 親民署長"},{"start":9196.3,"end":9197.3,"text":"好 秘書長早"},{"start":9198.32,"end":9203.32,"text":"我想今天我們總共有7個案子"},{"start":9203.32,"end":9205.32,"text":"大概整個刑事訴訟法"},{"start":9205.32,"end":9208.32,"text":"這一次的修正的"},{"start":9208.32,"end":9209.32,"text":"這幾個草案內容"},{"start":9209.32,"end":9211.32,"text":"涵蓋被害人的訴訟參與"},{"start":9211.32,"end":9213.32,"text":"簡化程序調查"},{"start":9213.32,"end":9215.32,"text":"檢視審判協商程序"},{"start":9215.32,"end":9218.32,"text":"還有獨任審判的範圍"},{"start":9218.32,"end":9221.32,"text":"還有裁判書簡化"},{"start":9221.32,"end":9224.32,"text":"那這些多項制度的修改"},{"start":9224.32,"end":9227.32,"text":"都在今天的這7個草案裡面"},{"start":9227.32,"end":9228.32,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":9228.93,"end":9230.93,"text":"但是其中有關於這個"},{"start":9230.93,"end":9231.93,"text":"其他的問題"},{"start":9231.93,"end":9233.93,"text":"剛才前面有一些委員問到"},{"start":9233.93,"end":9234.93,"text":"但是我個人最關心"},{"start":9234.93,"end":9236.93,"text":"我認為也是社會大家"},{"start":9236.93,"end":9239.93,"text":"在幾個禮拜前"},{"start":9239.93,"end":9240.93,"text":"大家最關心的一個"},{"start":9240.93,"end":9243.93,"text":"有關裁判書簡化的這個部分"},{"start":9243.93,"end":9245.93,"text":"裁判書簡化的部分"},{"start":9245.93,"end":9246.93,"text":"我們當然我們這個"},{"start":9246.93,"end":9248.93,"text":"司法院是基於這個"},{"start":9248.93,"end":9250.93,"text":"司法資源的配置"},{"start":9250.93,"end":9251.93,"text":"法官的工作負擔"},{"start":9251.93,"end":9254.93,"text":"同時要兼顧當事人的權益保障"},{"start":9254.93,"end":9255.93,"text":"那這個"},{"start":9257.35,"end":9258.35,"text":"這個"},{"start":9259.55,"end":9261.55,"text":"就光就這個裁判書簡化的部分"},{"start":9261.55,"end":9263.55,"text":"我們在這個各委員的提案裡面"},{"start":9263.55,"end":9265.55,"text":"有各種不一樣的提案"},{"start":9265.55,"end":9266.55,"text":"我知道我們司法院"},{"start":9266.55,"end":9268.55,"text":"也有一個版本"},{"start":9268.55,"end":9272.55,"text":"目前是行政院會議協中"},{"start":9272.55,"end":9274.55,"text":"那這個兩個禮拜前"},{"start":9274.55,"end":9276.55,"text":"有委員在這裡質疑"},{"start":9276.55,"end":9278.55,"text":"這個裁判書簡化的部分"},{"start":9278.55,"end":9281.55,"text":"提出說這是法官偷懶"},{"start":9281.55,"end":9284.55,"text":"這個不寫判決書"},{"start":9284.55,"end":9287.55,"text":"有甚至提到說這個"},{"start":9287.55,"end":9290.55,"text":"要用獨家修法來交換"},{"start":9290.55,"end":9292.55,"text":"這個部分要請秘書長在這邊"},{"start":9293.58,"end":9294.58,"text":"嚴正聲明"},{"start":9294.58,"end":9295.58,"text":"不是"},{"start":9295.58,"end":9297.58,"text":"我那天看狀況好像沒有"},{"start":9297.58,"end":9299.58,"text":"很多的時間讓秘書長好好的說明"},{"start":9299.58,"end":9301.58,"text":"是不是能夠讓秘書長在這邊說明"},{"start":9301.58,"end":9302.58,"text":"澄清一下"},{"start":9302.58,"end":9304.58,"text":"這個很遺憾會有這種傳言"},{"start":9304.58,"end":9306.58,"text":"其實獨家修法"},{"start":9306.58,"end":9309.58,"text":"那個行政院送本院會議協"},{"start":9309.58,"end":9311.58,"text":"本院三天內就出去了"},{"start":9311.58,"end":9313.58,"text":"因為那是一個重要的法案"},{"start":9313.58,"end":9314.58,"text":"那關於法官"},{"start":9314.58,"end":9317.58,"text":"我們沒有說法官不寫判決"},{"start":9317.78,"end":9319.78,"text":"這個部分我等一下"},{"start":9319.78,"end":9321.78,"text":"就是說沒有所謂什麼交換"},{"start":9321.78,"end":9323.78,"text":"獨家交換這個完全沒有了"},{"start":9323.78,"end":9326.78,"text":"那這個簡化判決部分"},{"start":9326.78,"end":9329.78,"text":"這其實也不是司法院今天獨創的"},{"start":9329.78,"end":9331.78,"text":"這個是從2017年"},{"start":9331.78,"end":9333.78,"text":"這個司改國是會議開始"},{"start":9333.78,"end":9335.78,"text":"大家就在談這個"},{"start":9335.78,"end":9337.78,"text":"這個判決書簡化的問題"},{"start":9337.78,"end":9339.78,"text":"這個改革"},{"start":9339.78,"end":9341.78,"text":"那我也知道說這個我們司法院"},{"start":9341.78,"end":9343.78,"text":"也不是說這臨時"},{"start":9343.78,"end":9344.78,"text":"我們就把它改一改"},{"start":9344.78,"end":9346.78,"text":"事實上我們從106年開始到現在"},{"start":9346.78,"end":9349.78,"text":"已經開了我自己手上的資料"},{"start":9349.78,"end":9351.78,"text":"就開了十四以上的會議"},{"start":9351.78,"end":9356.78,"text":"那這個也做出這樣子的結論"},{"start":9356.78,"end":9358.78,"text":"不過這部分我覺得還是"},{"start":9358.78,"end":9360.78,"text":"第一個要讓社會清楚說"},{"start":9360.78,"end":9363.78,"text":"我們為什麼要做這個判決書簡化"},{"start":9363.78,"end":9367.78,"text":"那這個要解決哪一些實務上的問題"},{"start":9367.78,"end":9369.78,"text":"我覺得也要讓社會清楚"},{"start":9371.01,"end":9373.01,"text":"那這個我看這個"},{"start":9374.21,"end":9376.21,"text":"這個這次修法裡面"},{"start":9376.21,"end":9378.21,"text":"大概第三百"},{"start":9378.21,"end":9381.21,"text":"第三百一十條之一跟第三百一十二條"},{"start":9381.21,"end":9383.21,"text":"跟三百一十條之二"},{"start":9383.21,"end":9387.21,"text":"這兩條這個是主要的判決簡化的部分"},{"start":9387.21,"end":9390.21,"text":"但是兩個規範這兩條所規範的"},{"start":9390.21,"end":9392.21,"text":"這個"},{"start":9392.13,"end":9394.13,"text":"範圍並不一樣"},{"start":9394.13,"end":9396.13,"text":"三百零"},{"start":9396.13,"end":9398.13,"text":"一個這個"},{"start":9398.07,"end":9400.07,"text":"這個三百"},{"start":9399.88,"end":9401.88,"text":"一十條之一"},{"start":9402.38,"end":9405.38,"text":"是跟這個是有關這個"},{"start":9406.97,"end":9407.97,"text":"簡示"},{"start":9408.99,"end":9410.99,"text":"三百一十條之一是"},{"start":9412.03,"end":9417.03,"text":"這個有罪判決的預知兩年以下的部分"},{"start":9417.03,"end":9419.03,"text":"那這個三百"},{"start":9419.39,"end":9423.39,"text":"三百一十條之二是有關簡示審判程序"},{"start":9423.39,"end":9427.39,"text":"這個是一個是一般的審判程序兩年以下的"},{"start":9427.39,"end":9429.39,"text":"一個是簡示審判程序"},{"start":9429.39,"end":9431.39,"text":"這兩條規範的並不一樣"},{"start":9431.39,"end":9433.39,"text":"那這個部分是不是這個"},{"start":9433.39,"end":9435.39,"text":"我們有關於這個"},{"start":9435.39,"end":9437.39,"text":"這個"},{"start":9436.85,"end":9438.85,"text":"有罪判決的簡化"},{"start":9438.85,"end":9442.85,"text":"跟這個簡示審判的這個有罪判決的這個部分"},{"start":9442.94,"end":9444.94,"text":"在試用上面有什麼差別"},{"start":9444.94,"end":9447.94,"text":"是不是請這個秘書長說明一下"},{"start":9447.94,"end":9449.94,"text":"那個有罪判決"},{"start":9449.94,"end":9451.94,"text":"他被告"},{"start":9451.5,"end":9452.5,"text":"他不一定認罪"},{"start":9452.5,"end":9455.5,"text":"那簡示審判程序就是要認罪"},{"start":9455.5,"end":9459.5,"text":"這個是最大的區別點"},{"start":9459.5,"end":9461.5,"text":"所以"},{"start":9462.38,"end":9465.38,"text":"我們這次為什麼會有310之二"},{"start":9465.38,"end":9468.38,"text":"因為310之一"},{"start":9468.38,"end":9470.38,"text":"一直告訴法官說"},{"start":9470.38,"end":9472.38,"text":"你可以簡化判決"},{"start":9472.38,"end":9475.38,"text":"從106年講到現在"},{"start":9476.95,"end":9478.95,"text":"法官就很愛寫判決"},{"start":9478.95,"end":9481.95,"text":"各位去看我們的這些判決"},{"start":9481.95,"end":9483.95,"text":"嚇到落落等"},{"start":9483.95,"end":9485.95,"text":"告訴他只要寫這個只要寫這個"},{"start":9485.95,"end":9486.95,"text":"就是沒辦法"},{"start":9486.95,"end":9488.95,"text":"那我們來回頭看看"},{"start":9488.95,"end":9492.95,"text":"其實關於簡示審判程序的判決"},{"start":9492.95,"end":9494.95,"text":"上訴率有多少"},{"start":9494.95,"end":9497.95,"text":"其實上訴率幾近於不到20"},{"start":9497.95,"end":9500.95,"text":"那就表示有80%"},{"start":9500.95,"end":9502.95,"text":"其實是被告"},{"start":9502.95,"end":9504.95,"text":"跟檢察官都是服氣的"},{"start":9504.95,"end":9507.95,"text":"那當這種狀況下的話"},{"start":9507.95,"end":9508.95,"text":"被告又認罪"},{"start":9509.6,"end":9510.6,"text":"權力要被告認罪"},{"start":9510.6,"end":9512.6,"text":"然後用簡示審判程序"},{"start":9512.6,"end":9514.6,"text":"然後對犯罪事實沒有爭執"},{"start":9514.6,"end":9518.6,"text":"那我們為什麼還要再去花時間寫判決"},{"start":9518.6,"end":9520.6,"text":"只要請法官寫判決"},{"start":9520.6,"end":9522.6,"text":"法官一定多多寫的"},{"start":9522.6,"end":9524.6,"text":"簡單講就是說"},{"start":9525.51,"end":9526.51,"text":"310條之一"},{"start":9526.51,"end":9529.51,"text":"他是規範一般通常的"},{"start":9529.51,"end":9532.51,"text":"通常程序通常的審判程序裡面"},{"start":9533.29,"end":9535.29,"text":"判決書的簡化"},{"start":9535.35,"end":9537.35,"text":"那310條之二"},{"start":9537.35,"end":9539.35,"text":"他是簡示判決"},{"start":9539.35,"end":9541.35,"text":"簡示判決裡面的這個簡化"},{"start":9541.35,"end":9543.35,"text":"這兩個部分要分開來討論"},{"start":9543.35,"end":9544.35,"text":"分開來討論"},{"start":9544.35,"end":9546.35,"text":"才不會讓人覺得法官偷懶"},{"start":9546.35,"end":9548.35,"text":"好像這個法官不寫判決說不是"},{"start":9548.35,"end":9551.35,"text":"事實上310條在一般審判程序裡面"},{"start":9551.35,"end":9554.35,"text":"310條之一還是要有判決書"},{"start":9554.35,"end":9556.35,"text":"還是要有判決書嘛"},{"start":9556.35,"end":9558.35,"text":"只是我們判決書要寫的內容"},{"start":9558.35,"end":9559.35,"text":"把它簡化了"},{"start":9559.35,"end":9561.35,"text":"對簡化了嘛對不對"},{"start":9561.35,"end":9564.35,"text":"引用檢察官的或什麼樣去簡化而已"},{"start":9564.35,"end":9566.35,"text":"這個部分是"},{"start":9566.35,"end":9569.35,"text":"這個至少在之前我聽到的爭議裡面"},{"start":9569.35,"end":9571.35,"text":"比較沒有爭議的"},{"start":9571.35,"end":9572.35,"text":"今天他還是要審判書"},{"start":9572.35,"end":9574.35,"text":"所以他只是說審判書他簡化"},{"start":9575.65,"end":9577.65,"text":"但是310條之二我們就"},{"start":9578.58,"end":9580.58,"text":"用簡示程序裡面我們就不用審判書了"},{"start":9580.58,"end":9584.58,"text":"我們用這個在這裡規定一個宣示判決筆錄"},{"start":9584.58,"end":9586.58,"text":"宣示判決筆錄來替代"},{"start":9586.58,"end":9588.58,"text":"這個部分就要講清楚"},{"start":9588.58,"end":9590.58,"text":"因為這宣示判決筆錄這個東西"},{"start":9590.58,"end":9592.58,"text":"這個東西你要講清楚什麼東西"},{"start":9592.58,"end":9594.58,"text":"什麼叫宣示判決筆錄"},{"start":9594.58,"end":9596.58,"text":"它的門檻是什麼"},{"start":9596.58,"end":9598.58,"text":"施用範圍是什麼"},{"start":9598.58,"end":9600.58,"text":"它的這個"},{"start":9600.58,"end":9602.58,"text":"會有什麼樣的影響"},{"start":9603.46,"end":9605.46,"text":"結果配置效果它會有什麼樣的差別"},{"start":9605.46,"end":9607.46,"text":"這部分請秘書長說明一下"},{"start":9608.86,"end":9612.86,"text":"第一個它一定要適用簡示審判程序"},{"start":9612.86,"end":9614.86,"text":"它一定不是重罪"},{"start":9614.86,"end":9618.86,"text":"死刑有期度三年以上全部不是"},{"start":9618.86,"end":9620.86,"text":"這個一定不是重罪"},{"start":9620.86,"end":9624.86,"text":"第三個一定要為有罪之陳述"},{"start":9624.86,"end":9628.86,"text":"再過來它要對檢察官起訴的事實"},{"start":9628.86,"end":9630.86,"text":"幾乎是不爭執"},{"start":9630.86,"end":9632.86,"text":"所以像這種案件"},{"start":9632.86,"end":9635.86,"text":"才適用宣示判決筆錄"},{"start":9635.86,"end":9637.86,"text":"可是宣示判決筆錄"},{"start":9637.86,"end":9641.86,"text":"一定要記載主文一定要碼"},{"start":9641.86,"end":9643.86,"text":"還有一個重要的犯罪事實"},{"start":9643.86,"end":9645.86,"text":"一定要寫清楚"},{"start":9645.86,"end":9647.86,"text":"我們即使是這個所謂的這個"},{"start":9647.86,"end":9649.86,"text":"宣示判決筆錄"},{"start":9649.86,"end":9651.86,"text":"裡面的要件也講得很清楚"},{"start":9651.86,"end":9653.86,"text":"它的這些要件"},{"start":9653.86,"end":9655.86,"text":"但是這個是我國獨創的嗎"},{"start":9655.86,"end":9657.86,"text":"還是參照外國立法令"},{"start":9657.86,"end":9659.86,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":9659.86,"end":9661.86,"text":"在日本的簡化判決裡面就有這樣子的"},{"start":9663.6,"end":9665.6,"text":"其實我看你們這個就是"},{"start":9665.6,"end":9667.6,"text":"就是按照日本的制度"},{"start":9667.6,"end":9669.6,"text":"還有我們的其實我們少事法"},{"start":9669.6,"end":9671.6,"text":"還有保護令都有"},{"start":9671.6,"end":9673.6,"text":"其實我們本國就有這種"},{"start":9673.6,"end":9675.6,"text":"只是我們要讓它"},{"start":9675.6,"end":9677.6,"text":"少年保護事件審理細則"},{"start":9677.6,"end":9679.6,"text":"裡面第27條第52條有類似"},{"start":9679.6,"end":9681.6,"text":"但是不太一樣"},{"start":9681.6,"end":9683.6,"text":"但是你們這個基本上就是日本的"},{"start":9683.6,"end":9687.6,"text":"日本所謂這個求修行決筆"},{"start":9687.6,"end":9689.6,"text":"這個調書判決"},{"start":9689.6,"end":9691.6,"text":"你們就是按照日本的這個"},{"start":9691.6,"end":9693.6,"text":"調書判決的這個立法令來立法"},{"start":9693.6,"end":9695.6,"text":"也不是我們獨創的"},{"start":9695.6,"end":9697.6,"text":"那這個日本的調書判決"},{"start":9697.6,"end":9699.6,"text":"也不是新的東西"},{"start":9699.6,"end":9701.6,"text":"它事實上在1960年代"},{"start":9701.6,"end":9703.6,"text":"開始就實施了"},{"start":9703.6,"end":9705.6,"text":"到現在已經有五六十年的歷史了"},{"start":9705.6,"end":9707.6,"text":"所以它的這個"},{"start":9707.6,"end":9709.6,"text":"只是我們今天要採取"},{"start":9709.6,"end":9711.6,"text":"我國現在要採取這種"},{"start":9711.6,"end":9713.6,"text":"這種"},{"start":9716.05,"end":9718.05,"text":"這個"},{"start":9717.15,"end":9719.15,"text":"這個"},{"start":9719.31,"end":9721.31,"text":"宣誓判決筆錄"},{"start":9721.31,"end":9723.31,"text":"這個制度我們還是"},{"start":9723.37,"end":9725.37,"text":"在這個制度的設計裡面"},{"start":9725.37,"end":9727.37,"text":"其實"},{"start":9727.25,"end":9729.25,"text":"它不是完全省略裁判的內容"},{"start":9729.25,"end":9731.25,"text":"它有一些要件"},{"start":9731.25,"end":9733.25,"text":"不過在這個部分"},{"start":9733.72,"end":9735.72,"text":"好像"},{"start":9736.05,"end":9738.05,"text":"第一個有關於"},{"start":9738.83,"end":9740.83,"text":"這個分兩個部分啊"},{"start":9740.83,"end":9742.83,"text":"剛剛講310條"},{"start":9741.99,"end":9743.99,"text":"310條之一的部分"},{"start":9743.99,"end":9745.99,"text":"一般審判程序"},{"start":9745.99,"end":9747.99,"text":"這個部分法務部有意見"},{"start":9747.99,"end":9749.99,"text":"法務部對於為什麼"},{"start":9749.99,"end":9751.99,"text":"要這個你們一兩年"},{"start":9753.43,"end":9755.43,"text":"兩年以下的這個判決"},{"start":9755.43,"end":9757.43,"text":"這個期限"},{"start":9757.43,"end":9759.43,"text":"這個不只法務部有意見"},{"start":9759.43,"end":9761.43,"text":"各個委員的版本也有不一樣"},{"start":9761.43,"end":9763.43,"text":"有的是一年"},{"start":9763.43,"end":9765.43,"text":"那我們為什麼定在兩年"},{"start":9765.43,"end":9767.43,"text":"其實這個"},{"start":9767.43,"end":9769.43,"text":"定在兩年"},{"start":9769.43,"end":9771.43,"text":"當然是我們看所有案件"},{"start":9771.43,"end":9773.43,"text":"整個上述的狀況來決定"},{"start":9773.43,"end":9775.43,"text":"另外"},{"start":9773.22,"end":9775.22,"text":"法務部擔憂的說"},{"start":9775.84,"end":9777.84,"text":"女法官會輕判"},{"start":9777.59,"end":9779.59,"text":"法務部對於法官的量刑"},{"start":9779.59,"end":9781.59,"text":"檢察官不是法務部"},{"start":9781.59,"end":9783.59,"text":"對法官的量刑是有監督責任"},{"start":9784.41,"end":9786.41,"text":"量刑不當本來就可以上訴"},{"start":9787.68,"end":9789.68,"text":"這個"},{"start":9788.73,"end":9790.73,"text":"好這個部分是不是"},{"start":9790.69,"end":9792.69,"text":"市長"},{"start":9791.73,"end":9793.73,"text":"黃市長"},{"start":9793.4,"end":9795.4,"text":"法務部的意見寫得很清楚"},{"start":9795.4,"end":9797.4,"text":"你們認為這樣子"},{"start":9797.4,"end":9799.4,"text":"造成一個誘因"},{"start":9799.4,"end":9801.4,"text":"一個量刑失衡的誘因"},{"start":9801.4,"end":9803.4,"text":"法務部基本上我們贊成"},{"start":9803.4,"end":9805.4,"text":"判決書的簡化"},{"start":9805.4,"end":9807.4,"text":"但是我們不贊成判決書"},{"start":9807.4,"end":9809.4,"text":"不寫判決書"},{"start":9809.4,"end":9811.4,"text":"我們是不贊成的"},{"start":9811.4,"end":9813.4,"text":"但簡化這件事也是贊成的"},{"start":9813.4,"end":9815.4,"text":"剛才提到就是說"},{"start":9815.4,"end":9817.4,"text":"在4310之一的話"},{"start":9817.4,"end":9819.4,"text":"他是宣告情在兩年以下都可以用簡化判決"},{"start":9819.4,"end":9821.4,"text":"那為什麼造成輕刑化呢"},{"start":9821.4,"end":9823.4,"text":"就像同剛剛委員所提到的"},{"start":9823.4,"end":9825.4,"text":"那法官他就容易為了要"},{"start":9825.4,"end":9827.4,"text":"做簡化判決"},{"start":9827.4,"end":9829.4,"text":"宣告情"},{"start":9829.4,"end":9831.4,"text":"宣告情降低"},{"start":9831.4,"end":9833.4,"text":"這就造成一個普遍性的輕刑化"},{"start":9833.4,"end":9835.4,"text":"這個部分"},{"start":9835.4,"end":9837.4,"text":"好這個先講"},{"start":9837.4,"end":9839.4,"text":"那這部分要請四法院回應"},{"start":9839.4,"end":9841.4,"text":"因為這是一個蠻關鍵的"},{"start":9840.72,"end":9842.72,"text":"我必須"},{"start":9842.09,"end":9844.09,"text":"嚴正抗議"},{"start":9843.88,"end":9845.88,"text":"法務太輕忽"},{"start":9845.88,"end":9847.88,"text":"法官的駕駛"},{"start":9847.77,"end":9849.77,"text":"其實310之一"},{"start":9849.77,"end":9851.77,"text":"他的簡化判決"},{"start":9851.77,"end":9853.77,"text":"到現在都沒有發生效用"},{"start":9855.12,"end":9857.12,"text":"法官的判決在簡化判決裡面"},{"start":9857.12,"end":9859.12,"text":"還是寫到落落等"},{"start":9860.26,"end":9862.26,"text":"只要法官寫判決"},{"start":9862.62,"end":9864.62,"text":"他就愛寫可以秤重的判決"},{"start":9864.62,"end":9866.62,"text":"不是法官愛寫"},{"start":9866.62,"end":9868.62,"text":"是他"},{"start":9868.62,"end":9870.62,"text":"因為我們是得簡化"},{"start":9870.62,"end":9872.62,"text":"我們只是得簡化其實同才之間的競爭"},{"start":9873.59,"end":9875.59,"text":"那是一個很大的壓力"},{"start":9875.59,"end":9877.59,"text":"另外"},{"start":9877.39,"end":9879.39,"text":"我希望檢察官不要忽視自己監督的力量"},{"start":9882.1,"end":9884.1,"text":"這個部分"},{"start":9884.1,"end":9886.1,"text":"這個部分"},{"start":9886.1,"end":9888.1,"text":"這個"},{"start":9887.8,"end":9889.8,"text":"好"},{"start":9888.66,"end":9890.66,"text":"跟委員也跟這個命令報告"},{"start":9890.66,"end":9892.66,"text":"檢察官不會去輕忽法官的"},{"start":9892.66,"end":9894.66,"text":"這個職權的價值"},{"start":9894.66,"end":9896.66,"text":"我們在講就是說宣告刑兩年以下本不時"},{"start":9896.66,"end":9898.66,"text":"贊成我們只是在說"},{"start":9898.66,"end":9900.66,"text":"在法定刑要做一些限制"},{"start":9900.66,"end":9902.66,"text":"一些重罪的狀況之下你不可以把宣告刑"},{"start":9902.66,"end":9904.66,"text":"宣告到兩年以下還去簡化"},{"start":9904.66,"end":9906.66,"text":"所以我們在宣告刑之後我們另外加一個"},{"start":9906.66,"end":9908.66,"text":"法定刑的限制"},{"start":9908.66,"end":9910.66,"text":"特定重罪我們不要用這一套來簡化判決"},{"start":9910.66,"end":9912.66,"text":"了解"},{"start":9912.66,"end":9914.66,"text":"其他比較輕罪你宣告兩年以下我們是贊成的"},{"start":9914.66,"end":9916.66,"text":"所以你認為說除了用刑期以外"},{"start":9916.66,"end":9918.66,"text":"還要再加一個法定刑的限制"},{"start":9918.66,"end":9920.66,"text":"在特殊的重罪你不要用簡化判決"},{"start":9920.66,"end":9922.66,"text":"這部分我想司法院也不會反對"},{"start":9922.66,"end":9924.66,"text":"這個部分所以其實還"},{"start":9924.66,"end":9926.66,"text":"需要再協商"},{"start":9926.66,"end":9928.66,"text":"但是比較關鍵的剛剛次長所講"},{"start":9928.66,"end":9930.66,"text":"比較關鍵的是說"},{"start":9930.66,"end":9932.66,"text":"就是310條之二了"},{"start":9932.66,"end":9934.66,"text":"你認為你不贊成都不寫判決書"},{"start":9934.66,"end":9936.66,"text":"也就是說你們不贊成"},{"start":9936.66,"end":9938.66,"text":"這個目前這個"},{"start":9938.66,"end":9940.66,"text":"司法院版本所提出的"},{"start":9940.66,"end":9942.66,"text":"這個"},{"start":9942.66,"end":9944.66,"text":"所謂宣示判決筆錄"},{"start":9945.09,"end":9947.09,"text":"來取代判決書的部分"},{"start":9947.09,"end":9949.09,"text":"宣示判決筆錄取代部分"},{"start":9949.09,"end":9951.09,"text":"你們的意見是這樣"},{"start":9951.09,"end":9953.09,"text":"你們的書面意見是說你們認為"},{"start":9954.1,"end":9956.1,"text":"你因為用宣示判決筆錄"},{"start":9956.1,"end":9958.1,"text":"但是上訴之後你就要寫判決書"},{"start":9958.1,"end":9960.1,"text":"所以大家我為了上訴"},{"start":9960.1,"end":9962.1,"text":"所以我就會要"},{"start":9962.1,"end":9964.1,"text":"我為了要沒有拿到判決書我就上訴"},{"start":9964.1,"end":9966.1,"text":"所以會變成"},{"start":9966.1,"end":9968.1,"text":"實質上達不到簡化的效果"},{"start":9968.1,"end":9970.1,"text":"就會變成每一個"},{"start":9970.1,"end":9972.1,"text":"我要先做一個宣示判決筆錄"},{"start":9972.1,"end":9974.1,"text":"然後上訴上訴之後我再寫判決書"},{"start":9974.1,"end":9976.1,"text":"會變成本來要簡化的變成反而變成"},{"start":9976.1,"end":9978.1,"text":"會送兩次他必須要重達一次"},{"start":9978.1,"end":9980.1,"text":"這個部分請司法院回應"},{"start":9980.1,"end":9982.1,"text":"這個部分請司法院回應"},{"start":9982.1,"end":9984.1,"text":"不好意思"},{"start":9984.1,"end":9986.1,"text":"這樣會不會引起記者在寫"},{"start":9986.69,"end":9988.69,"text":"其實我覺得法務太輕忽"},{"start":9990.45,"end":9992.45,"text":"請問法官呢"},{"start":9992.48,"end":9994.48,"text":"我們試一下"},{"start":9994,"end":9996,"text":"一個簡單的切到案件"},{"start":9997.19,"end":9999.19,"text":"量刑是拘役"},{"start":9999.38,"end":10001.38,"text":"事實被告認罪"},{"start":10002.69,"end":10004.69,"text":"然後對檢察官起訴的犯罪"},{"start":10004.69,"end":10006.69,"text":"事實沒有證詞"},{"start":10007.23,"end":10009.23,"text":"量刑也是"},{"start":10010.01,"end":10012.01,"text":"檢察官是你的責任"},{"start":10012.01,"end":10014.01,"text":"你要去看這個量刑妥不妥適"},{"start":10014.74,"end":10016.74,"text":"不妥適"},{"start":10016.2,"end":10018.2,"text":"就要上訴"},{"start":10018.95,"end":10020.95,"text":"我相信上訴率"},{"start":10020.95,"end":10022.95,"text":"我們剛報告過"},{"start":10022.21,"end":10024.21,"text":"試用檢視"},{"start":10023.87,"end":10025.87,"text":"程序上訴率低於"},{"start":10026.82,"end":10028.82,"text":"量刑"},{"start":10028.46,"end":10030.46,"text":"好"},{"start":10040.84,"end":10042.84,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":10042.84,"end":10044.84,"text":"為什麼我們一再呼籲"},{"start":10044.84,"end":10046.84,"text":"這個條文要拜託委員"},{"start":10046.34,"end":10048.34,"text":"因為只要"},{"start":10048.34,"end":10050.34,"text":"我們現在是寫百分之百的判決"},{"start":10051.76,"end":10053.76,"text":"上訴率只有兩成"},{"start":10053.76,"end":10055.76,"text":"我們如果能夠只寫"},{"start":10057.28,"end":10059.28,"text":"百分之七十的判決"},{"start":10059.28,"end":10061.28,"text":"我相信一定會有三成沒有上訴"},{"start":10061.28,"end":10063.28,"text":"這真的是拜託委員"},{"start":10063.28,"end":10065.28,"text":"功德無量"},{"start":10065.28,"end":10067.28,"text":"我了解了"},{"start":10067.28,"end":10069.28,"text":"法務部也不是找你們"},{"start":10069.28,"end":10071.28,"text":"我要講這個"},{"start":10069.83,"end":10071.83,"text":"這個市長"},{"start":10071.83,"end":10073.83,"text":"我講市長還有話要說"},{"start":10073.83,"end":10075.83,"text":"低我的時間到了"},{"start":10075.83,"end":10077.83,"text":"我要講"},{"start":10077.83,"end":10079.83,"text":"上訴率低是因為你法院的判決理由充分記載了"},{"start":10079.83,"end":10081.83,"text":"我才"},{"start":10081.83,"end":10083.83,"text":"檢察官甘願臣服了"},{"start":10083.83,"end":10085.83,"text":"所以才不上訴"},{"start":10085.83,"end":10087.83,"text":"你現在是完全不寫"},{"start":10087.83,"end":10089.83,"text":"我如從去審酌這個判決"},{"start":10089.83,"end":10091.83,"text":"我心服與否"},{"start":10091.83,"end":10093.83,"text":"第二個我們今天討論了很多被害人影響陳述"},{"start":10093.83,"end":10095.83,"text":"很多委員都要求被害人的相關的陳述"},{"start":10095.83,"end":10097.83,"text":"要記載在判決書裡面"},{"start":10097.83,"end":10099.83,"text":"現在反而是判決書不記載"},{"start":10100.75,"end":10102.75,"text":"甚至可以沒有判決書"},{"start":10102.75,"end":10104.75,"text":"甚至要簡化被害人相關影響的陳述"},{"start":10104.75,"end":10106.75,"text":"這是不是跟我們今天討論的條文反而某個程度上是相憨格的"},{"start":10113.22,"end":10115.22,"text":"不知道現在後面的同仁我佔到大家的時間了"},{"start":10117.18,"end":10119.18,"text":"我認為一個被害人他必須做"},{"start":10120.09,"end":10122.09,"text":"這個量刑的受害影響陳述"},{"start":10122.09,"end":10124.09,"text":"這絕對法官一定要寫判決"},{"start":10126.6,"end":10128.6,"text":"我相信這種案件不可能不寫判決"},{"start":10128.6,"end":10130.6,"text":"因為他不是如同我們講的"},{"start":10133.54,"end":10135.54,"text":"認罪又簡單"},{"start":10135.54,"end":10137.54,"text":"其實各位可以去想"},{"start":10137.54,"end":10139.54,"text":"我們這個社會上多少犯罪"},{"start":10139.54,"end":10141.54,"text":"是真的是很輕很輕的刑"},{"start":10141.54,"end":10143.54,"text":"可是法官"},{"start":10143.54,"end":10145.54,"text":"他花在這邊的時間"},{"start":10145.96,"end":10147.96,"text":"他就是要花時間"},{"start":10147.96,"end":10149.96,"text":"所以我們只是緊緊要求沒有錯"},{"start":10150.24,"end":10152.24,"text":"那個"},{"start":10152.24,"end":10154.24,"text":"市長可能說以前有理由"},{"start":10155.07,"end":10157.07,"text":"可是如果一個卸到兩千塊"},{"start":10157.07,"end":10159.07,"text":"那理由我看你也不會看吧"},{"start":10159.71,"end":10161.71,"text":"其實我們重要的是說"},{"start":10161.71,"end":10163.71,"text":"真的有這種輕刑"},{"start":10163.71,"end":10165.71,"text":"又認罪事實又簡單"},{"start":10165.71,"end":10167.71,"text":"我們要不要花時間"},{"start":10167.71,"end":10169.71,"text":"拜託拜託"},{"start":10170.41,"end":10172.41,"text":"我想這個司法院跟法務部"},{"start":10172.41,"end":10174.41,"text":"有一些部分是有共識的"},{"start":10174.41,"end":10176.41,"text":"但是我要講的重點是這樣子"},{"start":10176.41,"end":10178.41,"text":"今天我們在這邊談"},{"start":10178.41,"end":10180.41,"text":"我要講的是要拜託我們召為"},{"start":10180.41,"end":10182.41,"text":"這個司法院的案子"},{"start":10182.41,"end":10184.41,"text":"目前會前行政院"},{"start":10184.41,"end":10186.41,"text":"行政院一直遲遲沒有通過"},{"start":10186.41,"end":10188.41,"text":"不是因為帶墮"},{"start":10188.41,"end":10190.41,"text":"而是就是這些爭議"},{"start":10190.41,"end":10192.41,"text":"這些爭議卡在這裡"},{"start":10192.41,"end":10194.41,"text":"其實兩院正在密切的溝通當中"},{"start":10194.41,"end":10196.41,"text":"那這個不只這個"},{"start":10196.41,"end":10198.41,"text":"有關被害人訴訟參與的"},{"start":10198.41,"end":10200.41,"text":"去年九月就已經送到行政院"},{"start":10200.41,"end":10202.41,"text":"到目前為止也還卡在行政院"},{"start":10202.41,"end":10204.41,"text":"也不是因為行政院帶墮"},{"start":10204.41,"end":10206.41,"text":"而是因為在這些法律見解上面"},{"start":10206.41,"end":10208.41,"text":"剛剛我們在看到他們"},{"start":10208.41,"end":10210.41,"text":"這樣子的說法其實都是有道理"},{"start":10210.41,"end":10212.41,"text":"那有道理的"},{"start":10212.41,"end":10214.41,"text":"的情況之下"},{"start":10215.08,"end":10217.08,"text":"連我們這個審判機關"},{"start":10217.08,"end":10219.08,"text":"跟這個檢察單位"},{"start":10219.08,"end":10221.08,"text":"都還沒有辦法達成共識的情況"},{"start":10221.08,"end":10223.08,"text":"我們立法委員"},{"start":10223.08,"end":10225.08,"text":"來做決定說那我們覺得怎麼樣"},{"start":10225.08,"end":10227.08,"text":"我是覺得不太妥當"},{"start":10227.08,"end":10229.08,"text":"所以我是覺得說我們在"},{"start":10229.08,"end":10231.08,"text":"真的要來審查這個條文的時候"},{"start":10231.08,"end":10233.08,"text":"我們真的要給他們時間"},{"start":10233.08,"end":10235.08,"text":"給司法院給法務部時間"},{"start":10235.08,"end":10237.08,"text":"就這樣子的旗艦"},{"start":10237.08,"end":10239.08,"text":"來做一些溝通"},{"start":10239.08,"end":10241.08,"text":"設計出一個真的能夠簡化判決"},{"start":10241.08,"end":10243.08,"text":"又能夠保障權益"},{"start":10243.08,"end":10245.08,"text":"這些訴訟多於負擔的狀況"},{"start":10249.15,"end":10251.15,"text":"還要再講嗎"},{"start":10251.05,"end":10253.05,"text":"真的要拜託法務部"},{"start":10253.05,"end":10255.05,"text":"其實可以註記意見"},{"start":10255.05,"end":10257.05,"text":"其實註記意見送出來"},{"start":10257.05,"end":10259.05,"text":"好 立法長你要拜託法務部"},{"start":10259.05,"end":10261.05,"text":"不是在我立法院拜託法務部"},{"start":10261.05,"end":10263.05,"text":"請你們"},{"start":10263.05,"end":10265.05,"text":"在密切跟行政院"},{"start":10265.05,"end":10267.05,"text":"來做這些溝通"},{"start":10267.05,"end":10269.05,"text":"有必要的時候"},{"start":10269.05,"end":10271.05,"text":"我們就還是讓公開"},{"start":10271.05,"end":10273.05,"text":"法界人士來參與"},{"start":10273.05,"end":10275.05,"text":"食物界人士大家來參與"},{"start":10275.05,"end":10277.05,"text":"來看看實際上"},{"start":10277.05,"end":10279.05,"text":"這個我們司法院做的"},{"start":10279.05,"end":10281.05,"text":"這個主張比較"},{"start":10281.05,"end":10283.05,"text":"有利於判決簡化"},{"start":10283.05,"end":10285.05,"text":"跟人民權益的保障"},{"start":10285.05,"end":10287.05,"text":"還是法務部這個我覺得"},{"start":10287.05,"end":10289.05,"text":"我們有必要的話這樣做"},{"start":10289.05,"end":10291.05,"text":"而不是在立法院這邊溝通"},{"start":10291.05,"end":10293.05,"text":"我今天是很不得已讓你們"},{"start":10293.05,"end":10295.05,"text":"我所知道的你們意見不同的旗艦"},{"start":10295.05,"end":10297.05,"text":"在這裡讓大家知道說"},{"start":10297.05,"end":10299.05,"text":"為什麼這個案子在行政院"},{"start":10297.66,"end":10299.66,"text":"送到行政院會前這麼久還沒有出來"},{"start":10299.66,"end":10301.66,"text":"絕對不是因為怠惰"},{"start":10301.66,"end":10303.66,"text":"以上"},{"start":10304.58,"end":10306.58,"text":"謝謝審法會委員的"},{"start":10306.58,"end":10308.58,"text":"職業詢答非常有意義"},{"start":10308.58,"end":10310.58,"text":"因為真的可以就是將"},{"start":10310.58,"end":10312.58,"text":"一個法案它可能"},{"start":10312.58,"end":10314.58,"text":"呈現了有三方不同的"},{"start":10314.58,"end":10316.58,"text":"見解司法院法務部"},{"start":10316.58,"end":10318.58,"text":"甚至立法委員這裡的提案"},{"start":10318.58,"end":10320.58,"text":"大家不同的法律見解"},{"start":10320.58,"end":10322.58,"text":"都多餘的呈現而且彼此互相的"},{"start":10322.58,"end":10324.58,"text":"來把自己的理由說清楚"},{"start":10324.58,"end":10326.58,"text":"非常有價值不過我一直還是認為"},{"start":10326.58,"end":10328.58,"text":"說這個會先制度其實存在一些問題的"},{"start":10328.58,"end":10330.58,"text":"因為其實刑事訴訟法的"},{"start":10330.58,"end":10332.58,"text":"主管機關是"},{"start":10332.58,"end":10334.58,"text":"主管機關是"},{"start":10334.58,"end":10336.58,"text":"司法院那既然會前法務部"},{"start":10336.58,"end":10338.58,"text":"那是會前行政院法務部"},{"start":10338.58,"end":10340.58,"text":"有意見那其實法務部就也提出"},{"start":10340.58,"end":10342.58,"text":"自己的版本也沒有說是禁止"},{"start":10342.58,"end":10344.58,"text":"刑事訴訟法你們不能提"},{"start":10344.58,"end":10346.58,"text":"對岸可以吧應該是可以的"},{"start":10346.58,"end":10348.58,"text":"對那這樣的話就是不要再去阻擋"},{"start":10348.58,"end":10350.58,"text":"司法院的版本就是大家"},{"start":10350.58,"end":10352.58,"text":"的版本全部都進來立法院"},{"start":10352.58,"end":10354.58,"text":"一起充分討論我覺得是這樣"},{"start":10354.58,"end":10356.58,"text":"更好否則用技術性的這樣的"},{"start":10356.58,"end":10358.58,"text":"杯葛去壓著司法院的案子"},{"start":10358.58,"end":10360.58,"text":"其實真的不是那麼妥當"},{"start":10360.58,"end":10362.58,"text":"以上本席的意見"},{"start":10362.58,"end":10364.58,"text":"那接下來我們就有請周瑞雄委員"},{"start":10364.58,"end":10366.58,"text":"來進行發言"},{"start":10367.24,"end":10371.24,"text":"抱歉抱歉剛剛是說要先休息五分鐘"},{"start":10372.69,"end":10374.69,"text":"抱歉抱歉對不起我剛剛疏忽了"},{"start":10374.69,"end":10376.69,"text":"好那我們就先休息五分鐘"},{"start":10376.69,"end":10378.69,"text":"對不起好"},{"start":10378.66,"end":10380.66,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10381.97,"end":10383.97,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10382.97,"end":10384.97,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10731,"end":10735,"text":"好接下來我們有請周瑞雄委員來進行詢答"},{"start":10735.11,"end":10737.11,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10744.43,"end":10746.43,"text":"好謝謝主席有請我們司法院高秘書長"},{"start":10746.43,"end":10748.43,"text":"好有請高秘書長"},{"start":10748.43,"end":10750.43,"text":"還有刑事廳許廳長"},{"start":10750.43,"end":10752.43,"text":"好請許廳長法務部我們黃次長"},{"start":10752.43,"end":10754.43,"text":"好黃次長"},{"start":10755.6,"end":10757.6,"text":"好"},{"start":10758.21,"end":10762.21,"text":"秘書長好我看剛剛審判委員的質詢很精彩"},{"start":10762.21,"end":10767.21,"text":"司法院跟法務部各自講出"},{"start":10767.21,"end":10770.21,"text":"自己的看法還有擔憂"},{"start":10770.21,"end":10772.21,"text":"這個其實都是好事"},{"start":10772.21,"end":10774.21,"text":"高秘書長有一個好處"},{"start":10774.8,"end":10778.8,"text":"在講一些民眾聽得懂的話"},{"start":10778.8,"end":10780.8,"text":"這個是好事"},{"start":10780.8,"end":10782.8,"text":"我看你們的對話裡面"},{"start":10782.8,"end":10784.8,"text":"其實我發現問題的一個爭點在什麼地方"},{"start":10784.8,"end":10788.8,"text":"這一次我們說要讓司法官來做一個檢壓"},{"start":10788.8,"end":10792.8,"text":"其實要讓民眾去認清楚"},{"start":10792.8,"end":10794.8,"text":"讓民眾很清楚的了解說"},{"start":10794.8,"end":10796.8,"text":"我們簡化的是判決書"},{"start":10796.8,"end":10798.8,"text":"我們不是在簡化這個品質"},{"start":10798.8,"end":10800.8,"text":"你說要減少的是"},{"start":10800.8,"end":10804.8,"text":"我是要減少這個文書"},{"start":10804.8,"end":10806.8,"text":"我不是要減少老百姓的權利"},{"start":10806.8,"end":10808.8,"text":"這個如果定調清楚的話"},{"start":10808.8,"end":10812.8,"text":"那我會覺得你跟黃次長大家的想法其實都是一致的"},{"start":10812.8,"end":10814.8,"text":"那我是覺得比較奇怪的"},{"start":10814.8,"end":10818.8,"text":"我本期發現一個比較奇怪的一個現象就是說"},{"start":10818.8,"end":10820.8,"text":"我們一直在說法官過勞"},{"start":10820.8,"end":10822.8,"text":"覺得案件太多"},{"start":10822.8,"end":10826.8,"text":"判決書怎麼審都審不完"},{"start":10826.8,"end":10828.8,"text":"其實在我們刑事訴訟法310條之一"},{"start":10828.8,"end":10830.8,"text":"我看1990年的時候"},{"start":10830.8,"end":10832.8,"text":"那個時候就已經針對"},{"start":10832.8,"end":10834.8,"text":"這個整個"},{"start":10837.16,"end":10841.16,"text":"在那個經過這個部分的一個案件"},{"start":10841.16,"end":10843.16,"text":"我們就本來就可以去簡化判決書"},{"start":10843.16,"end":10845.16,"text":"那在2004年的時候"},{"start":10845.16,"end":10847.16,"text":"再去簡化"},{"start":10847.16,"end":10849.16,"text":"2004年的時候"},{"start":10849.16,"end":10851.16,"text":"證據原則上連內容都不用全部重寫"},{"start":10851.16,"end":10853.16,"text":"證據名稱下下都可以"},{"start":10853.16,"end":10855.16,"text":"我看2000"},{"start":10856.09,"end":10858.09,"text":"2017年的時候"},{"start":10858.09,"end":10860.09,"text":"司法的國是會議裡面"},{"start":10860.09,"end":10862.09,"text":"我看到最後你們在這一本"},{"start":10862.09,"end":10864.09,"text":"我今天中間拿一本來"},{"start":10864.09,"end":10866.09,"text":"一本裁判書類簡化"},{"start":10866.09,"end":10868.09,"text":"跟通俗化推動要人"},{"start":10868.09,"end":10870.09,"text":"這2000年"},{"start":10870.09,"end":10872.09,"text":"你們只對2017年那個司法國是會議"},{"start":10872.09,"end":10874.09,"text":"你們到最後還編了一本書"},{"start":10874.09,"end":10876.09,"text":"我是覺得很可惜"},{"start":10876.09,"end":10878.09,"text":"就是說這個制度講了三十幾年"},{"start":10878.09,"end":10880.09,"text":"本來就是"},{"start":10880.09,"end":10882.09,"text":"你可以去簡化"},{"start":10882.09,"end":10884.09,"text":"也不是強制法官你去簡化"},{"start":10884.09,"end":10886.09,"text":"法律問題"},{"start":10886.09,"end":10888.09,"text":"很複雜"},{"start":10888.09,"end":10890.09,"text":"還是說社會高度爭議"},{"start":10890.09,"end":10892.09,"text":"的"},{"start":10892.09,"end":10894.09,"text":"或者法官我認為說這個法律"},{"start":10894.09,"end":10896.09,"text":"見解我覺得我還要向"},{"start":10896.09,"end":10898.09,"text":"更清楚的"},{"start":10899.04,"end":10901.04,"text":"也沒有人限制你啊"},{"start":10901.72,"end":10903.72,"text":"本席真的發現一個問題"},{"start":10903.72,"end":10905.72,"text":"假設"},{"start":10904.5,"end":10906.5,"text":"假設大家都考上司法官"},{"start":10906.5,"end":10908.5,"text":"我們先去"},{"start":10908.5,"end":10910.5,"text":"候補"},{"start":10910.5,"end":10912.5,"text":"世俗"},{"start":10912.5,"end":10914.5,"text":"到最後這樣一個一個起來後"},{"start":10914.34,"end":10916.34,"text":"假設我"},{"start":10915.83,"end":10917.83,"text":"這個判決給我的話"},{"start":10917.83,"end":10919.83,"text":"我寫實驗"},{"start":10918.95,"end":10920.95,"text":"我們大家都寫實驗"},{"start":10921.36,"end":10923.36,"text":"黃魔信法官"},{"start":10925.92,"end":10927.92,"text":"高秘書長"},{"start":10927.92,"end":10929.92,"text":"你如果我們都做法官"},{"start":10929.92,"end":10931.92,"text":"你說我寫兩頁你覺得"},{"start":10932.79,"end":10934.79,"text":"有法律授權都可以"},{"start":10934.79,"end":10936.79,"text":"你得"},{"start":10936.79,"end":10938.79,"text":"重點就是你們那個文化就讓我們三個"},{"start":10938.79,"end":10940.79,"text":"我們都當法官的我們會怕"},{"start":10940.79,"end":10942.79,"text":"我說我這樣寫下去後"},{"start":10942.79,"end":10944.79,"text":"黃魔信說裝得最差差一點"},{"start":10944.79,"end":10946.79,"text":"我寫三頁就好"},{"start":10946.83,"end":10948.83,"text":"高秘書長你覺得我沒有寫一頁就可以了"},{"start":10948.83,"end":10950.83,"text":"可以嗎"},{"start":10950.62,"end":10952.62,"text":"你第一個你們這個文化"},{"start":10952.62,"end":10954.62,"text":"我這樣寫的人"},{"start":10954.62,"end":10956.62,"text":"我到最後會不會被人家講說"},{"start":10956.62,"end":10958.62,"text":"我第一個我偷懶"},{"start":10958.62,"end":10960.62,"text":"或者說你們內部有考核啊"},{"start":10961.09,"end":10963.09,"text":"還有維持率的問題啊"},{"start":10963.53,"end":10965.53,"text":"所以說你這個文化沒有去改變的話"},{"start":10967.08,"end":10969.08,"text":"所以我聽了你們兩個的對話"},{"start":10969.08,"end":10971.08,"text":"我會認為很有價值的地方就是說"},{"start":10971.08,"end":10973.08,"text":"這就是說你們內部"},{"start":10973.08,"end":10975.08,"text":"如果法官"},{"start":10975.08,"end":10977.08,"text":"這個自己本身那個心魔"},{"start":10977.08,"end":10979.08,"text":"沒有拿掉的話"},{"start":10979.08,"end":10981.08,"text":"我看你這個要推動都很困難"},{"start":10981.08,"end":10983.08,"text":"不然不會"},{"start":10983.43,"end":10985.43,"text":"講了三十幾年的制度了"},{"start":10985.43,"end":10987.43,"text":"大家一直在講減壓"},{"start":10987.43,"end":10989.43,"text":"我覺得核心問題"},{"start":10989.43,"end":10991.43,"text":"我覺得許廷長你也很清楚"},{"start":10991.43,"end":10993.43,"text":"你做到聽到我跟秘書長都為己詹"},{"start":10993.43,"end":10995.43,"text":"這樣起來後你也煩惱後"},{"start":10995.43,"end":10997.43,"text":"我這樣寫下去"},{"start":10997.43,"end":10999.43,"text":"你會擔心到"},{"start":10999.43,"end":11001.43,"text":"說哎呦那個法務部"},{"start":11001.43,"end":11003.43,"text":"檢察官沒有尊重我們"},{"start":11003.43,"end":11005.43,"text":"輕忽你們"},{"start":11005.43,"end":11007.43,"text":"你就這樣"},{"start":11007.43,"end":11009.43,"text":"有這個牢騷"},{"start":11009.16,"end":11011.16,"text":"有這個苦水會跑出來"},{"start":11011.16,"end":11013.16,"text":"所以說現在我們說要把"},{"start":11013.16,"end":11015.16,"text":"這個六個月的你說要把它"},{"start":11015.16,"end":11017.16,"text":"做兩年可以減壓的我告訴"},{"start":11018.38,"end":11020.38,"text":"法務部跟司法院"},{"start":11020.38,"end":11022.38,"text":"司法法制委員會就是立法院"},{"start":11022.38,"end":11024.38,"text":"他有第一次不跟我們一起"},{"start":11024.42,"end":11026.42,"text":"這司改了哪一次沒有去支持的"},{"start":11026.42,"end":11028.42,"text":"立法院會吵吵鬧鬧"},{"start":11028.42,"end":11030.42,"text":"會有啊"},{"start":11030.42,"end":11032.42,"text":"又有政治嘛"},{"start":11032.42,"end":11034.42,"text":"可是政政你制度要去往前走的"},{"start":11035.29,"end":11037.29,"text":"我看不管誰執政喔"},{"start":11037.29,"end":11039.29,"text":"在立法院大家是給你們支持的"},{"start":11039.29,"end":11041.29,"text":"所以這個問題出在哪裡"},{"start":11041.29,"end":11043.29,"text":"出在你們內部"},{"start":11042.49,"end":11044.49,"text":"我不知道秘書理由你的看法是怎樣"},{"start":11044.49,"end":11046.49,"text":"不要說"},{"start":11046.49,"end":11048.49,"text":"一個制度下去後"},{"start":11048.49,"end":11050.49,"text":"煩惱外界跟你說偷懶"},{"start":11050.49,"end":11052.49,"text":"你也不用怕人家說偷懶"},{"start":11052.49,"end":11054.49,"text":"立法院哪有法律的明文規定"},{"start":11054.49,"end":11056.49,"text":"這樣就可以啊"},{"start":11056.49,"end":11058.49,"text":"也沒有人強制說你一定要去簡化啊"},{"start":11058.49,"end":11060.49,"text":"複雜的問題啊"},{"start":11060.49,"end":11062.49,"text":"社會高度正義的問題啊"},{"start":11062.49,"end":11064.49,"text":"你本來就是個好可以給他交代清楚的啊"},{"start":11064.49,"end":11066.49,"text":"所以我都覺得是"},{"start":11066.49,"end":11068.49,"text":"出在你們內部考核的問題"},{"start":11068.16,"end":11070.16,"text":"考核你們怕人家說"},{"start":11070.16,"end":11072.16,"text":"第二怕維持率的問題"},{"start":11072.16,"end":11074.16,"text":"我醫生一個法官每次寫一寫"},{"start":11074.16,"end":11076.16,"text":"我都把他檢視判決寫完以後"},{"start":11076.16,"end":11078.16,"text":"我到二審全部都被撤銷"},{"start":11078.77,"end":11080.77,"text":"以後也沒人像這樣寫你知道嗎"},{"start":11081.29,"end":11083.29,"text":"所以"},{"start":11083.16,"end":11085.16,"text":"秘書理由你的看法是怎樣"},{"start":11085.91,"end":11087.91,"text":"其實委員指導重點"},{"start":11088.22,"end":11092.22,"text":"一位法官他對自己要求就認可"},{"start":11093.12,"end":11097.12,"text":"當我們法律規定他要寫判決的時候沒有錯"},{"start":11097.12,"end":11099.12,"text":"310之1"},{"start":11099.12,"end":11101.12,"text":"他可以簡化"},{"start":11101.12,"end":11103.12,"text":"可是在簡化的論述中"},{"start":11104.74,"end":11106.74,"text":"他對於自我要求"},{"start":11106.74,"end":11108.74,"text":"他會闡述的很清楚"},{"start":11108.74,"end":11110.74,"text":"其實這個就是為什麼"},{"start":11110.74,"end":11112.74,"text":"310之1"},{"start":11112.74,"end":11114.74,"text":"就像剛剛委員所說的"},{"start":11114.74,"end":11116.74,"text":"從民國幾年到現在"},{"start":11116.74,"end":11118.74,"text":"司法院也一直鼓勵"},{"start":11118.74,"end":11120.74,"text":"一直鼓勵一直鼓勵"},{"start":11120.74,"end":11122.74,"text":"為什麼沒辦法發揮一定的"},{"start":11123.83,"end":11125.83,"text":"讓法官檢壓的效用"},{"start":11125.83,"end":11127.83,"text":"那所以"},{"start":11127.83,"end":11129.83,"text":"我們為什麼會有310之2"},{"start":11129.83,"end":11131.83,"text":"這次希望能夠提出來"},{"start":11131.83,"end":11133.83,"text":"就是說我們對於這種"},{"start":11135.32,"end":11137.32,"text":"爭執性很低的判決"},{"start":11137.32,"end":11139.32,"text":"是不是讓法官"},{"start":11139.32,"end":11141.32,"text":"他就寫清楚犯罪事實"},{"start":11141.32,"end":11143.32,"text":"跟犯罪法條"},{"start":11143.32,"end":11145.32,"text":"真的一位法官"},{"start":11145.32,"end":11147.32,"text":"他自我要求"},{"start":11147.25,"end":11149.25,"text":"大部分絕大部分法官"},{"start":11149.25,"end":11151.25,"text":"自我要求太高了"},{"start":11151.6,"end":11153.6,"text":"同儕之間的議論"},{"start":11153.6,"end":11155.6,"text":"他也會聽在耳朵裡面"},{"start":11155.6,"end":11157.6,"text":"所以我們必須要釜底酬刑"},{"start":11157.6,"end":11159.6,"text":"因為310之1"},{"start":11159.6,"end":11161.6,"text":"這種真的如委員所說的"},{"start":11161.6,"end":11163.6,"text":"民國幾年講到現在"},{"start":11163.6,"end":11165.6,"text":"為什麼沒有發生"},{"start":11165.68,"end":11167.68,"text":"法官還在暗讀勞刑"},{"start":11167.68,"end":11169.68,"text":"還在寫判決"},{"start":11169.68,"end":11171.68,"text":"花這麼多時間"},{"start":11171.68,"end":11173.68,"text":"也是我們一直在檢討的"},{"start":11173.68,"end":11175.68,"text":"所以我們才說"},{"start":11175.21,"end":11177.21,"text":"如從這個"},{"start":11177.37,"end":11179.37,"text":"上訴率 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:"方向走下去"},{"start":11564.59,"end":11566.59,"text":"所以我還是在講"},{"start":11566.59,"end":11568.59,"text":"本來我以為只是"},{"start":11568.59,"end":11570.59,"text":"司法院裡面內部的一個文化的問題"},{"start":11570.59,"end":11572.59,"text":"就是說法律明文"},{"start":11572.59,"end":11574.59,"text":"這樣授權給你可以去簡化"},{"start":11574.59,"end":11576.59,"text":"你不敢用"},{"start":11576.43,"end":11578.43,"text":"我看別人寫十頁我不敢寫三頁"},{"start":11578.43,"end":11580.43,"text":"我不敢寫兩頁因為涉及到考評"},{"start":11580.43,"end":11582.43,"text":"然後呢我如果真的這樣去"},{"start":11582.43,"end":11584.43,"text":"寫下去了以後呢"},{"start":11584.43,"end":11586.43,"text":"涉及到檢察官一看到說"},{"start":11586.43,"end":11588.43,"text":"你怎麼變這樣"},{"start":11588.43,"end":11590.43,"text":"我到底要上訴還是不上訴"},{"start":11590.43,"end":11592.43,"text":"不如都上訴他要沒用嗎"},{"start":11592.23,"end":11594.23,"text":"最後就變成你們內部文化的問題"},{"start":11594.23,"end":11596.23,"text":"司法院也有內部文化的問題"},{"start":11596.23,"end":11598.23,"text":"那變成檢察官都說我無所遞從"},{"start":11598.23,"end":11600.23,"text":"我無所適從我不知道要怎麼"},{"start":11600.23,"end":11602.23,"text":"我看法院都不清不楚了"},{"start":11602.23,"end":11604.23,"text":"你的判決書沒有交代啊"},{"start":11604.23,"end":11606.23,"text":"所以我最保險起見我檢察官每一個案子"},{"start":11606.23,"end":11608.23,"text":"你只要一下來我全部都上訴"},{"start":11608.23,"end":11610.23,"text":"我們就達不到這樣的一個目的啦"},{"start":11613.66,"end":11615.66,"text":"黃某省搖頭"},{"start":11615.66,"end":11617.66,"text":"黃某省說你搖頭"},{"start":11617.66,"end":11619.66,"text":"我說什麼你搖頭這樣我們才有共識"},{"start":11619.66,"end":11621.66,"text":"要怎麼來請說來請說"},{"start":11623.62,"end":11625.62,"text":"這個"},{"start":11624.71,"end":11626.71,"text":"判決筆錄犯罪事實一定是明確的"},{"start":11626.71,"end":11628.71,"text":"那一定有的嘛"},{"start":11628.71,"end":11630.71,"text":"一定有嘛"},{"start":11630.94,"end":11632.94,"text":"被告是認罪的"},{"start":11632.94,"end":11634.94,"text":"然後在整個審判程序中"},{"start":11634.94,"end":11636.94,"text":"檢察官是參與的喔"},{"start":11637.74,"end":11639.74,"text":"不是只有被告跟法官啊"},{"start":11639.74,"end":11641.74,"text":"檢察官是有參與啊"},{"start":11641.74,"end":11643.74,"text":"你對整個陳述的內容"},{"start":11644.51,"end":11646.51,"text":"檢察官是知道的啊"},{"start":11646.51,"end":11648.51,"text":"那現在檢察官的立場"},{"start":11648.51,"end":11650.51,"text":"檢察官可能也要看就是說"},{"start":11650.51,"end":11652.51,"text":"檢察官是有參與但是他要知道說"},{"start":11652.51,"end":11654.51,"text":"你這個判決書是怎麼做出來的啦"},{"start":11654.51,"end":11658.51,"text":"所以說一定是檢察官起訴的犯罪事實"},{"start":11659.29,"end":11661.29,"text":"被告要認罪"},{"start":11661.65,"end":11663.65,"text":"就這麼簡單"},{"start":11663.65,"end":11667.65,"text":"你如果藤生什麼另外追加上不在檢察官起訴"},{"start":11667.65,"end":11669.65,"text":"檢察官會產生疑惑的時候"},{"start":11670.9,"end":11672.9,"text":"不可能法官會做這種判決"},{"start":11672.9,"end":11674.9,"text":"黃市長再搖頭啊"},{"start":11676.08,"end":11678.08,"text":"這個檢視判決"},{"start":11678.08,"end":11680.08,"text":"我們現在事實上有罪前提沒有錯"},{"start":11680.08,"end":11682.08,"text":"但是他不需要經過當事人的同意"},{"start":11682.08,"end":11684.08,"text":"換句話說法官他可以在檢察官不同意狀況下"},{"start":11684.08,"end":11686.08,"text":"被告認罪他可以下解釋判決"},{"start":11686.08,"end":11688.08,"text":"下解釋判決連動到"},{"start":11688.08,"end":11690.08,"text":"暫時免寫判決的狀況之下"},{"start":11690.08,"end":11692.08,"text":"檢察官他也許不同意做檢視"},{"start":11692.08,"end":11694.08,"text":"那我就上訴嘛"},{"start":11694.08,"end":11696.08,"text":"我就先上訴再說嘛"},{"start":11696.08,"end":11698.08,"text":"因為我看不到判決書啊"},{"start":11697.41,"end":11699.41,"text":"會有這個狀況產生"},{"start":11699.41,"end":11701.41,"text":"因為他不需要檢察官當事人的同意喔"},{"start":11701.41,"end":11703.41,"text":"他跟協商判決不一樣"},{"start":11703.41,"end":11705.41,"text":"協商判決基本上是雙方當事人同意了"},{"start":11705.41,"end":11707.41,"text":"經過協商"},{"start":11707.41,"end":11709.41,"text":"那是檢察官同意的"},{"start":11709.41,"end":11711.41,"text":"檢視判決本身不需要檢察官同意"},{"start":11711.82,"end":11713.82,"text":"法官就直接下檢視判決了"},{"start":11715.7,"end":11717.7,"text":"其實"},{"start":11717.7,"end":11719.7,"text":"我時間到了"},{"start":11719.7,"end":11721.7,"text":"我們要來跟你們一起辭了"},{"start":11721.7,"end":11723.7,"text":"司法改革我們都跟你們一起辭了"},{"start":11723.7,"end":11725.7,"text":"現在問題是說你司法年現在跟法務部"},{"start":11725.7,"end":11727.7,"text":"跟你們的意見分歧呢"},{"start":11727.7,"end":11729.7,"text":"可是跟委員報告"},{"start":11729.7,"end":11731.7,"text":"委員也很了解在刑事案件裡面"},{"start":11731.7,"end":11733.7,"text":"哪些是小案件"},{"start":11733.57,"end":11735.57,"text":"小案件的部分我們還是在寫判決"},{"start":11735.57,"end":11737.57,"text":"其實剛剛"},{"start":11737.57,"end":11739.57,"text":"次長講的"},{"start":11739.57,"end":11741.57,"text":"其實對一個稍微複雜的法官"},{"start":11741.57,"end":11743.57,"text":"要用這個可能性會很低"},{"start":11745.1,"end":11747.1,"text":"好我們現在來看"},{"start":11747.1,"end":11749.1,"text":"其實我們大部分"},{"start":11748.44,"end":11750.44,"text":"那個刑事案件小案件占很多"},{"start":11750.44,"end":11752.44,"text":"我們從上訴率來看"},{"start":11752.44,"end":11754.44,"text":"就可以知道"},{"start":11754.44,"end":11756.44,"text":"其實我們只是要減省"},{"start":11756.69,"end":11758.69,"text":"被告認罪犯罪事實可以說"},{"start":11759.75,"end":11761.75,"text":"將來看他的發展"},{"start":11761.75,"end":11763.75,"text":"他絕對不會是一個"},{"start":11763.98,"end":11765.98,"text":"連稍微複雜的犯罪事實"},{"start":11765.98,"end":11767.98,"text":"都不可能"},{"start":11767.98,"end":11769.98,"text":"一定是簡單的犯罪事實"},{"start":11769.98,"end":11771.98,"text":"這樣我聽到了"},{"start":11771.98,"end":11773.98,"text":"你還在講的時候在闡述你的看法的時候"},{"start":11773.98,"end":11775.98,"text":"黃次長也搖頭"},{"start":11775.98,"end":11777.98,"text":"不是說他完全把你否定"},{"start":11777.98,"end":11779.98,"text":"他有他的一個擔憂存在"},{"start":11779.98,"end":11781.98,"text":"立法院是一個民意機關"},{"start":11781.98,"end":11783.98,"text":"立法院其實我們"},{"start":11783.98,"end":11785.98,"text":"你們司法改革方向我們去做支持"},{"start":11785.98,"end":11787.98,"text":"可是以司法院"},{"start":11787.98,"end":11789.98,"text":"跟法務部這樣的一個對話"},{"start":11789.98,"end":11791.98,"text":"互相沒有辦法達到一個共識"},{"start":11791.98,"end":11793.98,"text":"在這種情況之下"},{"start":11793.98,"end":11795.98,"text":"哪怕是一個被告"},{"start":11795.98,"end":11797.98,"text":"被告不是只有他的人權"},{"start":11797.98,"end":11799.98,"text":"外面廠長還有一個叫做告訴人"},{"start":11799.98,"end":11801.98,"text":"這樣涉及到人民權益的時候"},{"start":11802.73,"end":11804.73,"text":"我們立法機關也擔心"},{"start":11804.73,"end":11806.73,"text":"當事人的權益或者說"},{"start":11806.73,"end":11808.73,"text":"一般老百姓的權益受損"},{"start":11808.73,"end":11810.73,"text":"所以你們說好再來"},{"start":11810.73,"end":11812.73,"text":"OK好謝謝"},{"start":11813.05,"end":11815.05,"text":"好謝謝莊委員"},{"start":11815.05,"end":11817.05,"text":"我看起來就是司法院跟法務部好像很難談好"},{"start":11817.05,"end":11819.05,"text":"對"},{"start":11819.05,"end":11821.05,"text":"是建議要不然就提出A板B板吧"},{"start":11821.05,"end":11823.05,"text":"如果是這樣的話"},{"start":11823.05,"end":11825.05,"text":"可能我們至少在"},{"start":11826.32,"end":11828.32,"text":"我們司委會"},{"start":11828.32,"end":11830.32,"text":"我們對於各不同的法案"},{"start":11830.32,"end":11832.32,"text":"我們就可以加速推進"},{"start":11832.32,"end":11834.32,"text":"希望在下個會期之前一定要能夠看得到兩院的版本"},{"start":11834.32,"end":11836.32,"text":"今天送出去了"},{"start":11836.32,"end":11838.32,"text":"好的那我們就先處理會議時間"},{"start":11838.32,"end":11840.32,"text":"上午會議時間繼續進行到所有登記發言委員"},{"start":11840.32,"end":11842.32,"text":"都尋答結束為止"},{"start":11842.32,"end":11844.32,"text":"那接下來我們就有請王世堅委員來進行尋答"},{"start":11857.92,"end":11859.92,"text":"呃"},{"start":11858.99,"end":11860.99,"text":"謝謝主席我請司法院高秘書長法務部黃次長"},{"start":11860.99,"end":11862.99,"text":"好請高秘書長黃次長"},{"start":11869.99,"end":11871.99,"text":"高秘書長"},{"start":11871.15,"end":11873.15,"text":"在我看來齁你是好為人師"},{"start":11873.15,"end":11875.15,"text":"我很少來到"},{"start":11875.15,"end":11877.15,"text":"司法委員會"},{"start":11877.15,"end":11879.15,"text":"那這一次真的讓我活生生的看到"},{"start":11880.5,"end":11882.5,"text":"呃你是當場"},{"start":11882.5,"end":11884.5,"text":"訓斥法務部"},{"start":11884.5,"end":11886.5,"text":"然後"},{"start":11886.5,"end":11888.5,"text":"這個照說啊"},{"start":11888.28,"end":11890.28,"text":"神減變三方"},{"start":11890.28,"end":11892.28,"text":"是平等的啦"},{"start":11892.99,"end":11894.99,"text":"所以我不想跟你多講什麼"},{"start":11894.99,"end":11896.99,"text":"我只是提醒你齁"},{"start":11897.06,"end":11899.06,"text":"現在社會上"},{"start":11899.17,"end":11903.17,"text":"對你可信任的公職人員的信任度"},{"start":11904.53,"end":11906.53,"text":"不好意思齁"},{"start":11906.53,"end":11908.53,"text":"司法院你們啊"},{"start":11908.53,"end":11910.53,"text":"跟我們立法委員是在同一等級啦"},{"start":11911.64,"end":11913.64,"text":"我們的信任度大概三成啦"},{"start":11914.93,"end":11916.93,"text":"大概是公職人員裡面最低的啦"},{"start":11916.93,"end":11918.93,"text":"齁我們還稍微比你們高一點點"},{"start":11918.93,"end":11920.93,"text":"齁"},{"start":11920.93,"end":11922.93,"text":"那也就是有七成的民眾"},{"start":11922.93,"end":11924.93,"text":"不相信我們的"},{"start":11924.93,"end":11926.93,"text":"司法"},{"start":11927.62,"end":11929.62,"text":"當然這是指"},{"start":11929.62,"end":11931.62,"text":"司法判決"},{"start":11931.63,"end":11933.63,"text":"拿"},{"start":11932.77,"end":11934.77,"text":"警察官"},{"start":11934.39,"end":11936.39,"text":"法務部"},{"start":11935.95,"end":11937.95,"text":"還比我們略高"},{"start":11937.95,"end":11939.95,"text":"他們大概四成"},{"start":11939.95,"end":11941.95,"text":"所以這一點我要提醒你"},{"start":11941.95,"end":11943.95,"text":"他們的信任度是四成"},{"start":11943.95,"end":11945.95,"text":"我希望不要說三成的去"},{"start":11945.95,"end":11947.95,"text":"信任度三成的去教訓"},{"start":11947.95,"end":11949.95,"text":"信任度四成的"},{"start":11949.95,"end":11951.95,"text":"兩邊"},{"start":11951.95,"end":11953.95,"text":"要互相折衷"},{"start":11953.95,"end":11955.95,"text":"你們挑個時間"},{"start":11955.95,"end":11957.95,"text":"另外"},{"start":11956.46,"end":11958.46,"text":"就"},{"start":11957.64,"end":11959.64,"text":"搭個擂台"},{"start":11959.66,"end":11961.66,"text":"齁生死狀"},{"start":11961.66,"end":11963.66,"text":"你們兩邊看怎麼去打嘛"},{"start":11963.88,"end":11965.88,"text":"不要再立法院"},{"start":11965.88,"end":11967.88,"text":"因為立法院不是說"},{"start":11967.88,"end":11969.88,"text":"只有法律專業的才可以進來"},{"start":11969.88,"end":11971.88,"text":"你剛剛那麼一教訓齁"},{"start":11971.88,"end":11973.88,"text":"我有點不敢上台質詢啦"},{"start":11973.88,"end":11975.88,"text":"為什麼因為我不是念法律的嘛"},{"start":11975.88,"end":11977.88,"text":"但是"},{"start":11977.88,"end":11979.88,"text":"司法就是要讓"},{"start":11979.88,"end":11981.88,"text":"人民都能夠理解"},{"start":11981.88,"end":11983.88,"text":"他整個過程"},{"start":11983.88,"end":11985.88,"text":"我引用黃仁勳這句話"},{"start":11985.88,"end":11987.88,"text":"他說我們人類未來的人類"},{"start":11987.88,"end":11989.88,"text":"有三種能力"},{"start":11990.19,"end":11992.19,"text":"第一個能力就是講這個"},{"start":11992.72,"end":11994.72,"text":"敘事力"},{"start":11994.72,"end":11996.72,"text":"storytelling"},{"start":11997.03,"end":11999.03,"text":"要釐清邏輯"},{"start":11999.03,"end":12001.03,"text":"精確傳達核心價值"},{"start":12001.03,"end":12003.03,"text":"法律是為人民服務的"},{"start":12003.03,"end":12005.03,"text":"要講到人民都能夠懂"},{"start":12006.36,"end":12008.36,"text":"那不要那種"},{"start":12008.36,"end":12010.36,"text":"高高在上"},{"start":12010.36,"end":12012.36,"text":"做之君做之師那個方式"},{"start":12012.77,"end":12014.77,"text":"去教訓其他單位好不好"},{"start":12014.77,"end":12016.77,"text":"法律是固然"},{"start":12016.77,"end":12018.77,"text":"要有專業但是"},{"start":12018.77,"end":12020.77,"text":"也容許我們有一些"},{"start":12020.77,"end":12022.77,"text":"人民有不同的感受比方說"},{"start":12022.77,"end":12024.77,"text":"我舉例"},{"start":12026,"end":12028,"text":"我們蔡總統在三年前"},{"start":12028,"end":12030,"text":"她就講過她說"},{"start":12030,"end":12032,"text":"司法改革的領頭羊"},{"start":12032.18,"end":12034.18,"text":"就是國民法官制"},{"start":12036.01,"end":12038.01,"text":"所以三年前"},{"start":12038.01,"end":12040.01,"text":"蔡總統任內她推動了"},{"start":12040.36,"end":12042.36,"text":"國民法官制就實施了"},{"start":12042.36,"end":12044.36,"text":"這三年多來"},{"start":12044.36,"end":12046.36,"text":"國民法官制其實"},{"start":12046.36,"end":12048.36,"text":"頗受好評"},{"start":12049.56,"end":12051.56,"text":"但是我比較不懂的是說"},{"start":12051.56,"end":12053.56,"text":"這三年來我們國民法官"},{"start":12053.56,"end":12055.56,"text":"總共有"},{"start":12055.56,"end":12057.56,"text":"489件"},{"start":12057.56,"end":12059.56,"text":"收案"},{"start":12058.89,"end":12060.89,"text":"裡面有157件"},{"start":12060.89,"end":12062.89,"text":"高達36%"},{"start":12064.09,"end":12066.09,"text":"欸"},{"start":12064.85,"end":12066.85,"text":"被司法院轉軌啦"},{"start":12067.53,"end":12069.53,"text":"就轉軌啦"},{"start":12069.53,"end":12071.53,"text":"你們轉軌的我先做一個比較"},{"start":12072.2,"end":12074.2,"text":"人家日本"},{"start":12074.52,"end":12076.52,"text":"日本他們的這個審判"},{"start":12076.52,"end":12078.52,"text":"是國民裁判員制度"},{"start":12078.52,"end":12080.52,"text":"就等同於我們的國民法官制啦"},{"start":12080.52,"end":12082.52,"text":"他實施了16年"},{"start":12082.52,"end":12084.52,"text":"總共"},{"start":12084.52,"end":12086.52,"text":"受理的案件"},{"start":12086.52,"end":12088.52,"text":"20167件"},{"start":12088.52,"end":12090.52,"text":"他16年來"},{"start":12090.52,"end":12092.52,"text":"20,000件"},{"start":12092.52,"end":12094.52,"text":"轉軌的件數"},{"start":12094.52,"end":12096.52,"text":"也不過65件"},{"start":12097.41,"end":12099.41,"text":"天啊"},{"start":12099.36,"end":12101.36,"text":"所以"},{"start":12101.36,"end":12103.36,"text":"到底我們的司法院"},{"start":12103.36,"end":12105.36,"text":"你們有沒有尊重國民法官制"},{"start":12105.36,"end":12107.36,"text":"這一點我打了很大的問號"},{"start":12107.36,"end":12109.36,"text":"那陳如我剛剛看你的態度"},{"start":12109.36,"end":12111.36,"text":"我就知道你們就是不尊重嘛"},{"start":12111.36,"end":12113.36,"text":"你們認為法律就是一定要法律的轉捩"},{"start":12113.36,"end":12115.36,"text":"所以你們用"},{"start":12115.36,"end":12117.36,"text":"你們不准"},{"start":12116.58,"end":12118.58,"text":"不准說"},{"start":12118.58,"end":12120.58,"text":"國民法官制說要轉軌的原因"},{"start":12120.58,"end":12122.58,"text":"你們就是說這個審查程序"},{"start":12122.58,"end":12124.58,"text":"太繁複啦"},{"start":12124.58,"end":12126.58,"text":"需要高度的轉捩"},{"start":12126.58,"end":12128.58,"text":"審查程序繁複我們可以延長"},{"start":12128.58,"end":12130.58,"text":"審理時間不是嗎"},{"start":12131.22,"end":12133.22,"text":"要高度轉捩有很多需要用鑑定的"},{"start":12133.22,"end":12135.22,"text":"那你只要讓被害人"},{"start":12135.22,"end":12137.22,"text":"可以詢問"},{"start":12137.75,"end":12139.75,"text":"這個鑑定人嘛"},{"start":12139.74,"end":12141.74,"text":"所以這個"},{"start":12141.74,"end":12143.74,"text":"我不跟你多浪費時間我還是簡單的"},{"start":12144.41,"end":12146.41,"text":"不好意思喔那個周杰倫"},{"start":12146.41,"end":12148.41,"text":"是不是因為我剛才提案說明"},{"start":12148.41,"end":12150.41,"text":"我遲到了"},{"start":12150.41,"end":12152.41,"text":"那個"},{"start":12152.41,"end":12154.41,"text":"所以是不是請給我幾分鐘我簡單"},{"start":12154.41,"end":12156.41,"text":"說明一下我這個提案"},{"start":12156.41,"end":12158.41,"text":"我提的是這個"},{"start":12160.17,"end":12162.17,"text":"這個徵修條文啊"},{"start":12162.17,"end":12164.17,"text":"刑事訴訟法的徵訂條文"},{"start":12164.17,"end":12166.17,"text":"我提了四點1985年"},{"start":12166.17,"end":12168.17,"text":"在聯合國"},{"start":12168.17,"end":12170.17,"text":"有通過被害人"},{"start":12170.17,"end":12172.17,"text":"司法基本原則宣言"},{"start":12172.17,"end":12174.17,"text":"它裡面第四點"},{"start":12174.17,"end":12176.17,"text":"它講的很清楚"},{"start":12176.17,"end":12178.17,"text":"他說犯罪被害人因受"},{"start":12178.17,"end":12180.17,"text":"同情及尊重"},{"start":12181.28,"end":12183.28,"text":"喔"},{"start":12182.13,"end":12184.13,"text":"是對待"},{"start":12184.13,"end":12186.13,"text":"其所受之損害"},{"start":12186.46,"end":12188.46,"text":"英特"},{"start":12187.75,"end":12189.75,"text":"透過司法程序"},{"start":12190.01,"end":12192.01,"text":"迅速獲得"},{"start":12192.27,"end":12194.27,"text":"就寄"},{"start":12194.27,"end":12196.27,"text":"而且第五點它還規定"},{"start":12196.27,"end":12198.27,"text":"司法及行政機關因建立制度"},{"start":12198.27,"end":12200.27,"text":"或採取必要之加強措施"},{"start":12200.27,"end":12202.27,"text":"使犯罪被害人"},{"start":12202.27,"end":12204.27,"text":"得透過"},{"start":12204.27,"end":12206.27,"text":"迅速公平"},{"start":12205.95,"end":12207.95,"text":"喔"},{"start":12207.95,"end":12209.95,"text":"而且方便之正式非正式之程序"},{"start":12209.95,"end":12211.95,"text":"以獲得就寄"},{"start":12211.95,"end":12213.95,"text":"那我們的司法院"},{"start":12214.36,"end":12216.36,"text":"欸大法官"},{"start":12216.45,"end":12218.45,"text":"世智"},{"start":12218.02,"end":12220.02,"text":"507號解釋"},{"start":12220.02,"end":12222.02,"text":"也有啊"},{"start":12222.02,"end":12224.02,"text":"他認為憲法第十二條規定"},{"start":12224.02,"end":12226.02,"text":"人民有訴訟之權"},{"start":12226.02,"end":12228.02,"text":"此項權力"},{"start":12228.02,"end":12230.02,"text":"亦包括人民"},{"start":12230.02,"end":12232.02,"text":"尋求刑事司法就寄在內"},{"start":12232.02,"end":12234.02,"text":"事故"},{"start":12234.02,"end":12236.02,"text":"人民因權力遭受非法侵害"},{"start":12236.02,"end":12238.02,"text":"加害之行為人"},{"start":12238.02,"end":12240.02,"text":"因而因負刑事責任者"},{"start":12240.02,"end":12242.02,"text":"被害人"},{"start":12242.02,"end":12244.02,"text":"有請求司法機關"},{"start":12244.02,"end":12246.02,"text":"給予偵查"},{"start":12246.02,"end":12248.02,"text":"審判之權力"},{"start":12248.02,"end":12250.02,"text":"此項權力之行使國家"},{"start":12250.02,"end":12252.02,"text":"一應提供制度性之保障"},{"start":12253.31,"end":12255.31,"text":"誰"},{"start":12255.18,"end":12257.18,"text":"大法官都解釋啦"},{"start":12257.18,"end":12259.18,"text":"刑事程序被害人的保護"},{"start":12259.18,"end":12261.18,"text":"那不僅這個是國際潮流"},{"start":12261.18,"end":12263.18,"text":"這也符合"},{"start":12263.18,"end":12265.18,"text":"我們國家刑事人權"},{"start":12265.18,"end":12267.18,"text":"保障的重要指標"},{"start":12267.18,"end":12269.18,"text":"我說我提了這四點"},{"start":12269.18,"end":12271.18,"text":"我認為要增訂這四點"},{"start":12271.18,"end":12273.18,"text":"這四點就是我簡單說明"},{"start":12273.18,"end":12275.18,"text":"第55之一啦"},{"start":12276.27,"end":12278.27,"text":"我認為要增訂"},{"start":12278.27,"end":12280.27,"text":"要建構資訊防火牆"},{"start":12280.27,"end":12282.27,"text":"也就是阻絕"},{"start":12282.27,"end":12284.27,"text":"合法的文書淪為"},{"start":12284.27,"end":12286.27,"text":"二次傷害"},{"start":12286.27,"end":12288.27,"text":"淪為二次傷害"},{"start":12288.27,"end":12290.27,"text":"也就是可以讓"},{"start":12290.27,"end":12292.27,"text":"被害人來要求說"},{"start":12292.27,"end":12294.27,"text":"是不是將文書去識別化"},{"start":12294.27,"end":12296.27,"text":"保護他們的個資"},{"start":12296.27,"end":12298.27,"text":"他們已經一度被害了"},{"start":12298.27,"end":12300.27,"text":"那如果個資在外洩"},{"start":12300.27,"end":12302.27,"text":"是二度被害"},{"start":12302.27,"end":12304.27,"text":"第二點就是說我希望落實"},{"start":12304.27,"end":12306.27,"text":"這個權力強化跟檢察官的"},{"start":12306.27,"end":12308.27,"text":"實質溝通效能"},{"start":12308.27,"end":12310.27,"text":"也就是說"},{"start":12310.27,"end":12312.27,"text":"犯罪被害人"},{"start":12312.27,"end":12314.27,"text":"真正需要的往往不是"},{"start":12314.27,"end":12316.27,"text":"重要的刑罰"},{"start":12316.27,"end":12318.27,"text":"其實最重要的他是要知道"},{"start":12318.27,"end":12320.27,"text":"案件是如何進行的"},{"start":12321.04,"end":12323.04,"text":"證據是如何評價"},{"start":12323.04,"end":12325.04,"text":"判決是如何行程"},{"start":12325.04,"end":12327.04,"text":"這一些應該讓"},{"start":12327.04,"end":12329.04,"text":"被害人能夠適度的知道"},{"start":12329.04,"end":12331.04,"text":"他能夠適度的"},{"start":12331.04,"end":12333.04,"text":"跟檢察官做溝通"},{"start":12333.04,"end":12335.04,"text":"那第455之49"},{"start":12335.04,"end":12337.04,"text":"我認為要明定補充結問權啦"},{"start":12337.04,"end":12339.04,"text":"也就是說引進被害人的視角"},{"start":12339.04,"end":12341.04,"text":"來拼湊"},{"start":12341.04,"end":12343.04,"text":"犯罪事實的全貌"},{"start":12347.25,"end":12349.25,"text":"被害人畢竟他"},{"start":12350.62,"end":12352.62,"text":"他是在犯罪現場"},{"start":12352.62,"end":12354.62,"text":"他很理解"},{"start":12354.62,"end":12356.62,"text":"所以如果我們為了發現具體事實"},{"start":12356.62,"end":12358.62,"text":"那麼應該明定"},{"start":12358.62,"end":12360.62,"text":"檢辯雙方在詢問"},{"start":12360.62,"end":12362.62,"text":"完畢以後訴訟參與人"},{"start":12362.62,"end":12364.62,"text":"得申請審判長許可"},{"start":12364.62,"end":12366.62,"text":"審判長許可"},{"start":12366.62,"end":12368.62,"text":"就是你們司法這邊的"},{"start":12368.62,"end":12370.62,"text":"你們許可啦"},{"start":12370.62,"end":12372.62,"text":"那他應該可以來"},{"start":12372.62,"end":12374.62,"text":"這個結問"},{"start":12374.62,"end":12376.62,"text":"這個被告"},{"start":12376.62,"end":12378.62,"text":"也就是說避免證人"},{"start":12378.75,"end":12380.75,"text":"虛偽或者避重就輕的回答"},{"start":12380.75,"end":12382.75,"text":"因為他在場嘛"},{"start":12382.75,"end":12384.75,"text":"他非常清楚"},{"start":12384.75,"end":12386.75,"text":"那最後我又再申請了"},{"start":12386.75,"end":12388.75,"text":"455之50"},{"start":12388.75,"end":12390.75,"text":"也就是說"},{"start":12390.75,"end":12392.75,"text":"讓這個"},{"start":12393.15,"end":12395.15,"text":"被害人可以直面"},{"start":12395.15,"end":12397.15,"text":"直接命告"},{"start":12397.15,"end":12399.15,"text":"這個被告"},{"start":12399.15,"end":12401.15,"text":"要求釐清你的動機"},{"start":12401.15,"end":12403.15,"text":"你要兼顧兼默權"},{"start":12403.15,"end":12405.15,"text":"保障權情緒平穩"},{"start":12405.15,"end":12407.15,"text":"這個"},{"start":12407.15,"end":12409.15,"text":"我們應該賦予訴訟參與人"},{"start":12409.15,"end":12411.15,"text":"金許可後"},{"start":12412.27,"end":12414.27,"text":"還是要歸願許可啦"},{"start":12414.77,"end":12416.77,"text":"那麼可以就"},{"start":12416.77,"end":12418.77,"text":"犯罪動機"},{"start":12418.77,"end":12420.77,"text":"對損害之認知"},{"start":12420.77,"end":12422.77,"text":"還有犯後態度等這些事項"},{"start":12422.77,"end":12424.77,"text":"直接向被告"},{"start":12424.77,"end":12426.77,"text":"進行詢問"},{"start":12426.77,"end":12428.77,"text":"我覺得這幾點才能確保"},{"start":12428.77,"end":12430.77,"text":"被害人他們"},{"start":12430.77,"end":12432.77,"text":"在司法訴訟的過程當中"},{"start":12432.77,"end":12434.77,"text":"他們應有的權益"},{"start":12434.77,"end":12436.77,"text":"我再一次強調"},{"start":12436.77,"end":12438.77,"text":"法律是為人民服務"},{"start":12438.77,"end":12440.77,"text":"被害人最無辜啦"},{"start":12440.77,"end":12442.77,"text":"那加害人要敢做敢當"},{"start":12442.77,"end":12444.77,"text":"當然他們可以辯護"},{"start":12444.77,"end":12446.77,"text":"那我也另外再給你"},{"start":12446.77,"end":12448.77,"text":"補充一點喔"},{"start":12448.77,"end":12450.77,"text":"去年你回去查查看"},{"start":12451.11,"end":12453.11,"text":"我們這個用在法律服務"},{"start":12453.11,"end":12455.11,"text":"這個"},{"start":12454.62,"end":12456.62,"text":"服住的錢"},{"start":12456.62,"end":12458.62,"text":"這是我們公家編的15億"},{"start":12458.62,"end":12460.62,"text":"我們15億裡面"},{"start":12460.62,"end":12462.62,"text":"竟然有8成"},{"start":12462.62,"end":12464.62,"text":"是用在這些加害人"},{"start":12464.62,"end":12466.62,"text":"尤其死刑犯"},{"start":12466.77,"end":12468.77,"text":"還有這30"},{"start":12468.77,"end":12470.77,"text":"剩下35位死刑犯"},{"start":12470.89,"end":12472.89,"text":"他們每一位都聘請3位"},{"start":12474.27,"end":12476.27,"text":"律師"},{"start":12476.22,"end":12478.22,"text":"這可惡到幾點"},{"start":12478.22,"end":12480.22,"text":"已經最正確著"},{"start":12480.22,"end":12482.22,"text":"最無可換了"},{"start":12482.79,"end":12484.79,"text":"所以這我再一次請你"},{"start":12484.79,"end":12486.79,"text":"我請你回去查清楚"},{"start":12486.94,"end":12488.94,"text":"我們這15億是要幫助弱勢"},{"start":12490.67,"end":12492.67,"text":"哈"},{"start":12491.97,"end":12493.97,"text":"受害"},{"start":12493.97,"end":12495.97,"text":"而且他沒有辦法自己"},{"start":12495.97,"end":12497.97,"text":"來去爭取"},{"start":12497.97,"end":12499.97,"text":"所以他也沒有錢聘請律師"},{"start":12499.97,"end":12501.97,"text":"我們是要輔助他們這些人才對"},{"start":12503.24,"end":12505.24,"text":"如果被告"},{"start":12505.24,"end":12507.24,"text":"加害人他沒有錢申請"},{"start":12507.24,"end":12509.24,"text":"也OK"},{"start":12509.24,"end":12511.24,"text":"但是比例不是這個樣子"},{"start":12511.24,"end":12513.24,"text":"哪有說讓死刑犯"},{"start":12513.24,"end":12515.24,"text":"來聘3個律師"},{"start":12515.24,"end":12517.24,"text":"真是很失明"},{"start":12518.34,"end":12520.34,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":12520.35,"end":12522.35,"text":"靠近一點"},{"start":12522.73,"end":12524.73,"text":"我已經尊重你院長"},{"start":12526.14,"end":12528.14,"text":"你再照"},{"start":12528.14,"end":12530.14,"text":"這樣子繼續強硬下去"},{"start":12530.14,"end":12532.14,"text":"有一天你可能會當到院長"},{"start":12533.01,"end":12535.01,"text":"我再一次提醒你"},{"start":12536.82,"end":12538.82,"text":"要認清楚"},{"start":12538.82,"end":12540.82,"text":"施法"},{"start":12539.73,"end":12541.73,"text":"法律"},{"start":12540.69,"end":12542.69,"text":"必須專業沒有錯"},{"start":12542.7,"end":12544.7,"text":"但是法律不外乎"},{"start":12544.7,"end":12546.7,"text":"就是要服務人民"},{"start":12546.7,"end":12548.7,"text":"要跟人民站在一起"},{"start":12548.7,"end":12550.7,"text":"你要以人民不懂法律的視角"},{"start":12551.54,"end":12553.54,"text":"來做裁判"},{"start":12553.53,"end":12555.53,"text":"來做表達"},{"start":12555.03,"end":12557.03,"text":"這才是正確的"},{"start":12559.81,"end":12561.81,"text":"謝謝王詠瑩"},{"start":12563.86,"end":12566.86,"text":"接下來我們有請洪孟凱委員發言"},{"start":12571.99,"end":12572.99,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":12578.36,"end":12580.36,"text":"感謝主席"},{"start":12580.36,"end":12582.36,"text":"王世堅委員康凱基揚"},{"start":12582.36,"end":12584.36,"text":"大家知不知道一個小知識"},{"start":12584.36,"end":12587.36,"text":"孟凱跟王世堅委員都是同月同日生"},{"start":12587.36,"end":12589.36,"text":"我們都是1月1號摩羯座"},{"start":12589.36,"end":12591.36,"text":"所以時事求是很重要"},{"start":12591.36,"end":12593.36,"text":"我也是摩羯座"},{"start":12594.54,"end":12596.54,"text":"那我們一起努力"},{"start":12596.54,"end":12598.54,"text":"請秘書長"},{"start":12598.54,"end":12600.54,"text":"來請秘書長"},{"start":12600.54,"end":12602.54,"text":"法務部次長"},{"start":12607.19,"end":12609.19,"text":"一樣嚴肅的議題"},{"start":12609.19,"end":12611.19,"text":"我想刑事訴訟法本席一開始"},{"start":12611.19,"end":12613.19,"text":"開宗明義在最後提案說明的時候"},{"start":12613.19,"end":12615.19,"text":"就已經講了"},{"start":12614.84,"end":12616.84,"text":"任何執政權再大"},{"start":12616.84,"end":12618.84,"text":"也大不過憲法"},{"start":12618.84,"end":12622.84,"text":"五權分立是中華民國我們很基本的憲法框架"},{"start":12622.84,"end":12625.84,"text":"因此我們一定要尊重這樣的憲法框架"},{"start":12625.84,"end":12629.84,"text":"憲法框架就是我們各自願做好各自的角色"},{"start":12629.84,"end":12630.84,"text":"各自的工作"},{"start":12630.84,"end":12632.84,"text":"那更重要的就是"},{"start":12632.84,"end":12634.84,"text":"要以台灣人民的福祉為最優先"},{"start":12634.84,"end":12637.84,"text":"所以我先看到一個部分"},{"start":12639.32,"end":12641.32,"text":"剛剛也是提到這個"},{"start":12641.32,"end":12644.32,"text":"王世堅委員有提到這個法服的一個使用"},{"start":12644.32,"end":12646.32,"text":"沒有錯"},{"start":12646.32,"end":12648.32,"text":"法服是要保障弱勢是希望是說"},{"start":12648.32,"end":12650.32,"text":"大家不要有這個法律的一個資訊落差"},{"start":12650.32,"end":12652.32,"text":"但絕對不是"},{"start":12652.97,"end":12656.97,"text":"加害者來請律師請好請滿"},{"start":12656.97,"end":12658.97,"text":"然後藉此想要逃避"},{"start":12658.97,"end":12660.97,"text":"應有的制裁"},{"start":12660.97,"end":12663.97,"text":"本席有提到之前有講到一個這個案件"},{"start":12663.97,"end":12666.97,"text":"就是所謂我們的土城勇警"},{"start":12666.97,"end":12669.97,"text":"劉宗鑫所長他被毒蟲撞死"},{"start":12669.97,"end":12671.97,"text":"前幾天上個禮拜"},{"start":12671.97,"end":12673.97,"text":"六天前還在做嚴壓庭"},{"start":12673.97,"end":12675.97,"text":"結果這個毒蟲他"},{"start":12675.97,"end":12677.97,"text":"居然還講是說他就是"},{"start":12677.97,"end":12680.97,"text":"反正這個繼續嚴壓沒有任何意見表達"},{"start":12680.97,"end":12683.97,"text":"所以兩秒鐘法官又再繼續嚴壓"},{"start":12683.97,"end":12684.97,"text":"但更重要的是"},{"start":12684.97,"end":12686.97,"text":"他居然在這利用法服"},{"start":12686.97,"end":12689.97,"text":"可以請了三名律師請好請滿"},{"start":12689.97,"end":12692.97,"text":"而且這三名律師形象非常的鮮明"},{"start":12692.97,"end":12695.97,"text":"都是廢死聯盟相關的律師"},{"start":12695.97,"end":12697.97,"text":"所以其實他的意義很明顯"},{"start":12697.97,"end":12701.97,"text":"他就是想要逃脫所謂的死刑的一個制裁"},{"start":12701.97,"end":12702.97,"text":"死刑的一個處罰"},{"start":12702.97,"end":12704.97,"text":"但我們要問的是"},{"start":12704.97,"end":12707.97,"text":"當一個毒蟲開車駕車"},{"start":12707.97,"end":12708.97,"text":"故意殺人"},{"start":12708.97,"end":12712.97,"text":"以這樣子衝撞遠景制服遠景的時候"},{"start":12713.88,"end":12715.88,"text":"第一審已經判死刑了"},{"start":12715.88,"end":12717.88,"text":"那法院二審"},{"start":12717.88,"end":12720.88,"text":"到底會不會還是堅持這樣的判決"},{"start":12720.88,"end":12723.88,"text":"還是法院有可能讓他開脫了"},{"start":12723.88,"end":12724.88,"text":"這人民不知道"},{"start":12724.88,"end":12726.88,"text":"可是公平正義就在這邊"},{"start":12726.88,"end":12729.88,"text":"也因此本席現在提到兩個部分"},{"start":12729.88,"end":12731.88,"text":"我等一下請秘書長這邊來做回答"},{"start":12732.4,"end":12735.4,"text":"就是說這個案件他是故意殺人"},{"start":12735.4,"end":12737.4,"text":"其實一審大家已經看得很明確"},{"start":12737.4,"end":12738.4,"text":"但現在另一個部分是"},{"start":12738.4,"end":12741.4,"text":"我們也針對相關的刑罰"},{"start":12741.4,"end":12742.4,"text":"我們來做修法"},{"start":12742.4,"end":12744.4,"text":"就是毒駕跟酒駕最大的不同是"},{"start":12744.4,"end":12747.4,"text":"毒駕他吸毒已經是犯罪了"},{"start":12747.4,"end":12748.4,"text":"吸毒還開車上路"},{"start":12748.4,"end":12751.4,"text":"那是更加是惡上加惡非常可惡"},{"start":12751.4,"end":12754.4,"text":"而如果說你有吸毒駕車"},{"start":12754.4,"end":12756.4,"text":"而撞人致人於死的話"},{"start":12756.4,"end":12760.4,"text":"很抱歉你應該要付出相同的代價"},{"start":12760.4,"end":12762.4,"text":"也因此法務部現在提出來的版本"},{"start":12762.4,"end":12763.4,"text":"是從3年到10年"},{"start":12763.4,"end":12765.4,"text":"我們增加到5年到12年"},{"start":12765.4,"end":12767.4,"text":"但我本席不認同"},{"start":12767.4,"end":12769.4,"text":"本席的版本是"},{"start":12769.4,"end":12772.4,"text":"毒蟲駕車毒駕致死最高可出"},{"start":12772.4,"end":12776.4,"text":"死刑無期徒刑或10年以上有期徒刑"},{"start":12776.4,"end":12777.4,"text":"該做的修法我們會做"},{"start":12777.4,"end":12779.4,"text":"因為現在已經進入到朝野協商了"},{"start":12779.4,"end":12781.4,"text":"如果說沒有辦法達成共識的話"},{"start":12781.4,"end":12783.4,"text":"那該院會表決我們一定會表決"},{"start":12783.4,"end":12784.4,"text":"但更重要的是"},{"start":12784.4,"end":12787.4,"text":"立法院敢做修法"},{"start":12787.67,"end":12789.67,"text":"法院敢不敢判"},{"start":12789.95,"end":12791.95,"text":"我想這才是關鍵"},{"start":12792.19,"end":12794.19,"text":"民主黨"},{"start":12793.36,"end":12795.36,"text":"您知不知此如果說我們"},{"start":12795.36,"end":12798.36,"text":"這個毒蟲駕車最高致死"},{"start":12798.36,"end":12801.36,"text":"而出於死刑無期徒刑或10年以上有期徒刑"},{"start":12801.81,"end":12806.81,"text":"來賀主毒蟲你吸毒了不要開車上路"},{"start":12806.81,"end":12809.81,"text":"你開車上路如果說撞到人"},{"start":12809.81,"end":12811.81,"text":"不要跟我講你是不小心"},{"start":12811.81,"end":12813.81,"text":"不要跟我講說你是無意識"},{"start":12813.81,"end":12815.81,"text":"不要跟我講說你是無差別沒有"},{"start":12815.81,"end":12818.81,"text":"吸毒駕車你已經是不定時炸彈了"},{"start":12818.81,"end":12820.81,"text":"你在路上都是一個殺人兇器"},{"start":12820.81,"end":12821.81,"text":"都是一個災難"},{"start":12821.81,"end":12823.81,"text":"我們就以最高的標準"},{"start":12823.81,"end":12825.81,"text":"要求你不要開車上路"},{"start":12825.81,"end":12827.81,"text":"這樣的修法方向你可以接受嗎"},{"start":12827.81,"end":12829.81,"text":"我想這個是最重要的是"},{"start":12831.11,"end":12834.11,"text":"刑事刑罰要怎麼樣的規定"},{"start":12835.39,"end":12836.39,"text":"這是尊重立法院"},{"start":12837.48,"end":12839.48,"text":"因為這是立法權所在"},{"start":12839.48,"end":12841.48,"text":"我的態度很明確"},{"start":12841.48,"end":12844.48,"text":"我是要告訴所有台灣2300萬人"},{"start":12844.48,"end":12846.48,"text":"生活在這邊你要遵守我們的法治"},{"start":12846.48,"end":12848.48,"text":"如果你敢吸毒"},{"start":12848.48,"end":12850.48,"text":"那你已經犯罪"},{"start":12850.48,"end":12851.48,"text":"但你吸毒之後不要開車"},{"start":12851.48,"end":12853.48,"text":"你吸毒還開車沒路車輛"},{"start":12853.48,"end":12855.48,"text":"如果你吸毒開車還致死"},{"start":12855.48,"end":12859.48,"text":"那最高死刑無期徒刑或10年以上有期徒刑"},{"start":12859.48,"end":12860.48,"text":"很重"},{"start":12860.48,"end":12862.48,"text":"所以告訴你不要這樣做"},{"start":12865.01,"end":12867.01,"text":"那"},{"start":12865.87,"end":12866.87,"text":"我們現在講了就是說"},{"start":12866.87,"end":12868.87,"text":"我們也不是說完全沒有option"},{"start":12868.87,"end":12870.87,"text":"就是說不是說我們就唯一死刑"},{"start":12870.87,"end":12872.87,"text":"所以到最後我們"},{"start":12872.87,"end":12874.87,"text":"做這樣子的一個假設修法通過之後"},{"start":12874.87,"end":12878.87,"text":"還是回過頭來就是求在法官手上"},{"start":12878.87,"end":12881.87,"text":"法官可以因照各個個案"},{"start":12881.87,"end":12885.87,"text":"勤竭輕重緩急來去裁定"},{"start":12885.87,"end":12887.87,"text":"到最後是死刑無期徒刑"},{"start":12887.87,"end":12889.87,"text":"還是10年以上有期徒刑"},{"start":12889.87,"end":12891.87,"text":"但是這是一個態度的問題"},{"start":12891.87,"end":12893.87,"text":"所以這個共同大家來講是說不要做這件事情"},{"start":12896.74,"end":12898.74,"text":"我相信這是立法權"},{"start":12898.74,"end":12899.74,"text":"我們絕對尊重"},{"start":12899.74,"end":12901.74,"text":"那之後法官敢不敢判"},{"start":12902.89,"end":12906.89,"text":"我們現在看到很多司法院法官的一個部分是"},{"start":12906.89,"end":12908.89,"text":"我們即便給了工具"},{"start":12908.89,"end":12910.89,"text":"但法官到時候不敢判"},{"start":12910.89,"end":12912.89,"text":"或是判的還是以最低刑度"},{"start":12912.85,"end":12914.85,"text":"那就好像是最低消費"},{"start":12914.85,"end":12918.85,"text":"不是啊我們希望是法官能夠重判嚴懲"},{"start":12918.85,"end":12922.85,"text":"讓這些真正犯罪者不要逃離法律應有的制裁"},{"start":12922.85,"end":12927.85,"text":"是我想這個是好死刑"},{"start":12927.85,"end":12929.85,"text":"無期徒刑到10年以上有期徒刑"},{"start":12929.85,"end":12931.85,"text":"絕對法官是有事實"},{"start":12932.95,"end":12933.95,"text":"來適用法律"},{"start":12933.95,"end":12937.95,"text":"當然有時候量刑外界可能不滿意"},{"start":12937.95,"end":12943.95,"text":"可是我相信隨著進入國民法官的話"},{"start":12943.95,"end":12945.95,"text":"其實大家互相學習"},{"start":12945.95,"end":12948.95,"text":"我相信各位可以看到量刑的趨勢"},{"start":12948.95,"end":12950.95,"text":"因為它有一個階段"},{"start":12950.95,"end":12952.95,"text":"我不能說它一定是死刑"},{"start":12952.95,"end":12954.95,"text":"它一定是無期徒刑"},{"start":12954.95,"end":12958.95,"text":"它要看很多事實跟證據這樣來評量"},{"start":12958.95,"end":12960.95,"text":"所以我現在講就是說"},{"start":12960.95,"end":12962.95,"text":"所謂的廢死聯盟廢死團體"},{"start":12962.95,"end":12963.95,"text":"我尊重他們的言論"},{"start":12963.95,"end":12967.95,"text":"但是很抱歉台灣社會現在就是沒有廢死的空間"},{"start":12967.95,"end":12970.95,"text":"也因此我該捍衛的該堅持我一定會堅持"},{"start":12970.95,"end":12971.95,"text":"但另外一個部分"},{"start":12971.95,"end":12974.95,"text":"其實今天司法院在第二頁你的報告裡面有講到"},{"start":12974.95,"end":12977.95,"text":"我覺得這很值得我們法務部很值得我們民進黨政府"},{"start":12977.95,"end":12979.95,"text":"現在執政黨來參考"},{"start":12979.95,"end":12980.95,"text":"第二頁開宗明義講"},{"start":12980.95,"end":12985.95,"text":"近來大量集團式詐騙洗錢等量刑事化"},{"start":12985.95,"end":12990.95,"text":"高重複性犯罪已經嚴重排擠司法資源的有效運用"},{"start":12990.95,"end":12997.95,"text":"從110年40多萬件到114年已經成長36.2%"},{"start":12997.95,"end":12999.95,"text":"達到55萬件"},{"start":13000.92,"end":13001.92,"text":"詐騙"},{"start":13002.42,"end":13006.42,"text":"洗錢等這種高型態集團化的犯罪"},{"start":13006.42,"end":13009.42,"text":"連司法院的報告今天都點出來是說非常嚴峻"},{"start":13009.42,"end":13011.42,"text":"也因此我們才會講是說"},{"start":13011.42,"end":13014.42,"text":"我們要用更積極有效的方式來去對付詐騙集團"},{"start":13014.42,"end":13016.42,"text":"一個是抓到之後我們要重判"},{"start":13016.42,"end":13019.42,"text":"讓他知道說在台灣犯罪你要付出高額的代價"},{"start":13019.42,"end":13023.42,"text":"另外一個部分是讓你知道有高額代價要付出"},{"start":13023.42,"end":13025.42,"text":"也因此你不敢在台灣犯罪"},{"start":13025.42,"end":13029.42,"text":"所以本席也提出來所謂的邊形打擊詐騙公投"},{"start":13029.42,"end":13031.42,"text":"現在也已經正設立法院成案了"},{"start":13031.97,"end":13033.97,"text":"未來今年年底有可能會有這個公投"},{"start":13033.97,"end":13035.97,"text":"公投如果說真的通過的話"},{"start":13035.97,"end":13039.97,"text":"立法院跟行政院都有責任要推動修法"},{"start":13039.97,"end":13042.97,"text":"因為這是人民公投的一個決定"},{"start":13042.97,"end":13044.97,"text":"而我現在只想要再提醒"},{"start":13044.97,"end":13047.97,"text":"如果說真的邊形打擊詐騙公投通過"},{"start":13047.97,"end":13051.97,"text":"確實有邊形這樣的一個刑責進入的時候"},{"start":13051.97,"end":13053.97,"text":"法院也要感叛"},{"start":13055.1,"end":13057.1,"text":"法院也要感叛"},{"start":13057.1,"end":13059.1,"text":"這才是真真正正"},{"start":13059.34,"end":13063.34,"text":"五院各自分立各自責任的一個分屬"},{"start":13063.34,"end":13067.34,"text":"而能夠真的有效讓台灣社會更加進步的一個關鍵"},{"start":13067.98,"end":13069.98,"text":"民主黨可以認同嗎"},{"start":13069.98,"end":13071.98,"text":"當然"},{"start":13071.36,"end":13073.36,"text":"法官是依法判決"},{"start":13073.36,"end":13075.36,"text":"法律通過了除非"},{"start":13075.36,"end":13077.36,"text":"他將來有違憲另外的別"},{"start":13077.36,"end":13079.36,"text":"另外的情勢發生"},{"start":13079.36,"end":13082.36,"text":"法官就是依法來判決"},{"start":13082.36,"end":13083.36,"text":"好"},{"start":13083.36,"end":13085.36,"text":"來最後這個不好意思市長"},{"start":13085.36,"end":13086.36,"text":"讓您在這邊站比較久"},{"start":13086.36,"end":13089.36,"text":"不過本席回歸到這個草案的一個"},{"start":13089.61,"end":13091.61,"text":"我幾個部分我只簡單講一下"},{"start":13091.61,"end":13093.61,"text":"因為本席也看到我自己的一個"},{"start":13093.61,"end":13097.61,"text":"455之44條以及45跟47條"},{"start":13097.61,"end":13099.61,"text":"原則上我看到司法院跟法務部"},{"start":13099.61,"end":13101.61,"text":"都是尊重我們的提案"},{"start":13101.61,"end":13104.61,"text":"並且都是表達可以接受的"},{"start":13104.61,"end":13106.61,"text":"所以這個部分"},{"start":13106.61,"end":13109.61,"text":"455之44條本席認為"},{"start":13109.61,"end":13111.61,"text":"既然現在已經有相關的一個座位"},{"start":13111.61,"end":13115.61,"text":"能夠再更明確讓被害者或是其家屬"},{"start":13115.61,"end":13118.61,"text":"有在法院審理的時候有一個明確隔離的一個座位"},{"start":13118.61,"end":13119.61,"text":"我覺得這是好的方向"},{"start":13119.61,"end":13121.61,"text":"即便司法院已經提出來是說"},{"start":13121.61,"end":13124.61,"text":"目前雖然沒有法令規定但是已經有座"},{"start":13124.61,"end":13126.61,"text":"那如果說有座那樣更好"},{"start":13126.61,"end":13128.61,"text":"那是不是能夠在這邊法治化"},{"start":13128.61,"end":13130.61,"text":"讓他更加明確"},{"start":13130.61,"end":13132.61,"text":"各級法院都可以有這樣的一個設置"},{"start":13132.61,"end":13137.61,"text":"而455之47條在於是被害者"},{"start":13137.61,"end":13140.61,"text":"或是其家屬的一個陳述意見的一個部分"},{"start":13140.61,"end":13143.61,"text":"我想也看到法務部跟司法院都是尊重"},{"start":13143.61,"end":13144.61,"text":"都是同意的"},{"start":13144.61,"end":13146.61,"text":"所以在逐條審查的時候"},{"start":13146.61,"end":13147.61,"text":"本席也會堅持這一條"},{"start":13147.61,"end":13150.61,"text":"因為能夠適時的在審理過程裡面"},{"start":13150.61,"end":13153.61,"text":"讓被害者或被害者家屬陳述意見表達意見"},{"start":13153.61,"end":13156.61,"text":"我想這對於法官的判決"},{"start":13156.61,"end":13158.61,"text":"是有所公正的一個幫助"},{"start":13158.61,"end":13160.61,"text":"另外本席有看到"},{"start":13160.61,"end":13163.61,"text":"2711之1條這個部分"},{"start":13165.4,"end":13167.4,"text":"也有陳述意見的一個部分也是同意"},{"start":13167.4,"end":13169.4,"text":"反正這幾個部分有同意的"},{"start":13169.4,"end":13171.4,"text":"我想我們如果說有共識的話"},{"start":13171.4,"end":13173.4,"text":"在逐條審查的時候我一定會有所堅持"},{"start":13173.4,"end":13175.4,"text":"那也希望我們司法院法務部能夠"},{"start":13175.4,"end":13179.4,"text":"在針對本席所提出來其他幾個條文"},{"start":13179.4,"end":13181.4,"text":"有可以溝通的部分我們再做一些溝通"},{"start":13181.4,"end":13183.4,"text":"那希望在逐條審查的時候"},{"start":13183.4,"end":13185.4,"text":"我們能夠有更實質的進展好嗎"},{"start":13185.4,"end":13187.4,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":13188.13,"end":13190.13,"text":"謝謝洪孟凱委員"},{"start":13190.37,"end":13192.37,"text":"那我們接下來有請楊瓊瑩委員進行巡達"},{"start":13199.82,"end":13201.82,"text":"謝謝主席楊俊凡議員邀請司法院"},{"start":13203.15,"end":13205.15,"text":"好 請高秘書長"},{"start":13209.06,"end":13213.06,"text":"我們來討論我們的這個"},{"start":13214.05,"end":13216.05,"text":"法輔基金"},{"start":13216.05,"end":13220.05,"text":"因為我們為了保障經濟落實的人民的訴訟權益"},{"start":13220.05,"end":13222.05,"text":"司法院每一年常態性的"},{"start":13222.05,"end":13224.05,"text":"我們來編的預算"},{"start":13224.05,"end":13226.05,"text":"公帑來預注在法輔基金會裡頭"},{"start":13226.05,"end":13228.05,"text":"但是我們看到現行執行下來"},{"start":13228.05,"end":13234.05,"text":"現行的法輔資源分配的一個配置"},{"start":13234.05,"end":13236.05,"text":"出現了嚴重明顯的一個失衡"},{"start":13236.05,"end":13238.05,"text":"那也就是說"},{"start":13238.05,"end":13240.05,"text":"法輔案件當中高達九成"},{"start":13240.05,"end":13242.05,"text":"他是涉及到刑事被告"},{"start":13244.07,"end":13248.07,"text":"那同時真正協助犯罪被害人的比例只有一成"},{"start":13248.07,"end":13250.07,"text":"大概只有一成"},{"start":13249.98,"end":13251.98,"text":"那有鑑於本席認為"},{"start":13251.98,"end":13253.98,"text":"如果像蓄意殺人"},{"start":13253.98,"end":13255.98,"text":"獨家致死 詐騙"},{"start":13255.98,"end":13257.98,"text":"性侵 虐童的"},{"start":13257.98,"end":13259.98,"text":"那這樣子的一個重大犯罪"},{"start":13259.98,"end":13261.98,"text":"我們應該重新來調整"},{"start":13261.98,"end":13263.98,"text":"他適不適合"},{"start":13263.98,"end":13265.98,"text":"適用在我們法律輔助的一個必要性"},{"start":13267.39,"end":13269.39,"text":"我們將有限的資源"},{"start":13269.39,"end":13271.39,"text":"有限的公帑"},{"start":13271.39,"end":13273.39,"text":"應該要優先用在於"},{"start":13273.39,"end":13275.39,"text":"真正需要司法救濟的"},{"start":13275.39,"end":13277.39,"text":"經濟弱勢及犯罪被害人"},{"start":13277.39,"end":13279.39,"text":"這也是我們成立"},{"start":13279.39,"end":13281.39,"text":"法輔基金會的最重要的"},{"start":13281.39,"end":13283.39,"text":"宗旨跟目標"},{"start":13283.39,"end":13285.39,"text":"也就是保障弱勢"},{"start":13285.39,"end":13287.39,"text":"司法的權益"},{"start":13287.39,"end":13289.39,"text":"所以我個人要請教"},{"start":13289.39,"end":13290.39,"text":"秘書長"},{"start":13290.39,"end":13292.39,"text":"也就是你司法院是否支持"},{"start":13293.63,"end":13294.63,"text":"蓄意殺人"},{"start":13294.63,"end":13296.63,"text":"獨家致死 虐童"},{"start":13296.63,"end":13299.63,"text":"性侵 以及這個詐騙"},{"start":13299.63,"end":13301.63,"text":"重大詐騙"},{"start":13301.63,"end":13303.63,"text":"排除在法律輔助的適用範圍"},{"start":13303.63,"end":13305.63,"text":"請您來說明"},{"start":13307.13,"end":13309.13,"text":"剛剛委員講的這些"},{"start":13309.13,"end":13311.13,"text":"都是強制辯護"},{"start":13311.13,"end":13313.13,"text":"是不是要有法輔"},{"start":13313.12,"end":13314.12,"text":"來"},{"start":13314.3,"end":13315.3,"text":"這個"},{"start":13315.3,"end":13316.3,"text":"做"},{"start":13317.33,"end":13319.33,"text":"這是我不覺得是一定"},{"start":13319.86,"end":13320.86,"text":"好因為"},{"start":13320.86,"end":13321.86,"text":"謝謝你"},{"start":13321.86,"end":13322.86,"text":"法輔沒有救一遍"},{"start":13322.86,"end":13323.86,"text":"是"},{"start":13323.86,"end":13325.86,"text":"他就是一定要有辯護人"},{"start":13325.86,"end":13326.86,"text":"是"},{"start":13326.86,"end":13327.86,"text":"可是我們資源"},{"start":13327.86,"end":13328.86,"text":"要分配的問題而已"},{"start":13328.86,"end":13329.86,"text":"對"},{"start":13329.56,"end":13331.56,"text":"我非常感謝秘書長"},{"start":13331.56,"end":13332.56,"text":"您的見解"},{"start":13332.56,"end":13334.56,"text":"也是因應的社會大眾"},{"start":13334.56,"end":13335.56,"text":"很多人問我"},{"start":13335.57,"end":13336.57,"text":"為什麼江愛人"},{"start":13336.57,"end":13338.57,"text":"他得不到這些資源"},{"start":13338.57,"end":13339.57,"text":"我又是弱勢"},{"start":13340.22,"end":13342.22,"text":"但是為什麼被害人"},{"start":13342.22,"end":13344.22,"text":"是這個這樣的一個情勢"},{"start":13344.22,"end":13345.22,"text":"刑事被告"},{"start":13345.22,"end":13347.22,"text":"他竟然都幾乎九成"},{"start":13347.22,"end":13349.22,"text":"是用到我們的公堂"},{"start":13349.98,"end":13351.98,"text":"我感動的是聽到秘書長"},{"start":13351.98,"end":13352.98,"text":"你的論點跟我是一樣"},{"start":13352.98,"end":13354.98,"text":"那我們是一樣的方式"},{"start":13354.98,"end":13355.98,"text":"接下來怎麼做呢"},{"start":13358.92,"end":13360.92,"text":"當然犯罪"},{"start":13361.22,"end":13362.22,"text":"被告"},{"start":13362.22,"end":13364.22,"text":"因為無罪推定的"},{"start":13364.22,"end":13366.22,"text":"這個是世界原則"},{"start":13366.22,"end":13368.22,"text":"所以他一定會有辯護人"},{"start":13368.22,"end":13370.22,"text":"只是辯護人"},{"start":13370.22,"end":13372.22,"text":"尤其是強制辯護"},{"start":13373.13,"end":13374.13,"text":"是分配的問題"},{"start":13374.13,"end":13376.13,"text":"在法輔呢"},{"start":13376.13,"end":13378.13,"text":"還是要放議辯呢"},{"start":13378.13,"end":13380.13,"text":"還是要放在法院的公辯"},{"start":13380.13,"end":13381.13,"text":"我覺得這是分配的問題"},{"start":13381.13,"end":13382.13,"text":"對"},{"start":13382.13,"end":13383.13,"text":"我們對"},{"start":13383.13,"end":13384.13,"text":"我們因應民情"},{"start":13384.13,"end":13385.13,"text":"要怎麼分配"},{"start":13385.13,"end":13386.13,"text":"那"},{"start":13387.1,"end":13388.1,"text":"你的看法"},{"start":13388.1,"end":13389.1,"text":"我知道"},{"start":13389.1,"end":13390.1,"text":"委員有提到"},{"start":13390.1,"end":13391.1,"text":"剛剛提到的"},{"start":13391.1,"end":13392.1,"text":"這個幾大犯罪"},{"start":13392.1,"end":13393.1,"text":"對"},{"start":13393.1,"end":13394.1,"text":"是不是要由法輔來承擔"},{"start":13394.1,"end":13396.1,"text":"我覺得這個是一個"},{"start":13396.1,"end":13398.1,"text":"立法政策的問題"},{"start":13398.43,"end":13400.43,"text":"我們司法院尊重"},{"start":13400.43,"end":13401.43,"text":"司法院尊重"},{"start":13401.43,"end":13402.43,"text":"所以你也同意"},{"start":13402.43,"end":13404.43,"text":"剛剛本席所說的這個方向"},{"start":13404.43,"end":13405.43,"text":"對"},{"start":13405.43,"end":13406.43,"text":"就我尊重"},{"start":13406.43,"end":13407.43,"text":"我不能說"},{"start":13407.43,"end":13408.43,"text":"你尊重"},{"start":13408.43,"end":13409.43,"text":"我要謝謝你的尊重"},{"start":13409.43,"end":13410.43,"text":"我們希望能夠真正"},{"start":13410.43,"end":13411.43,"text":"讓我們的公堂"},{"start":13411.43,"end":13413.43,"text":"是運用在"},{"start":13413.43,"end":13415.43,"text":"我們當時成立的一個目標"},{"start":13415.43,"end":13418.43,"text":"也就是保障落實司法的一個權利"},{"start":13418.43,"end":13419.43,"text":"這個是非常重要"},{"start":13419.43,"end":13421.43,"text":"我們朝這個目標來做"},{"start":13421.43,"end":13422.43,"text":"那接下來我要請教"},{"start":13422.43,"end":13423.43,"text":"好"},{"start":13423.43,"end":13424.43,"text":"素質觀長期"},{"start":13425.99,"end":13427.99,"text":"所以當時在葉金鳳擔任"},{"start":13427.99,"end":13428.99,"text":"法務部長的時候"},{"start":13428.99,"end":13430.99,"text":"我們開始啟動"},{"start":13430.99,"end":13432.99,"text":"法務部跟司法院"},{"start":13432.99,"end":13434.99,"text":"司法院還動作跑"},{"start":13434.99,"end":13435.99,"text":"比這個"},{"start":13435.99,"end":13438.99,"text":"這個法務部還早了半年"},{"start":13438.99,"end":13440.99,"text":"我們加了這個助理的"},{"start":13440.99,"end":13442.99,"text":"這個名額進來"},{"start":13443.3,"end":13444.3,"text":"但是我們看到"},{"start":13444.98,"end":13446.98,"text":"書記官他的目的是要做什麼"},{"start":13446.98,"end":13448.98,"text":"他是要協助法官"},{"start":13448.98,"end":13452.98,"text":"在審理案件的這個核心精神"},{"start":13452.98,"end":13454.98,"text":"他的工作量應該是如此"},{"start":13454.98,"end":13455.98,"text":"但是現在法官"},{"start":13455.98,"end":13457.98,"text":"這個書記官他要什麼"},{"start":13457.98,"end":13458.98,"text":"聽電話"},{"start":13458.98,"end":13459.98,"text":"聽了這麼多的電話"},{"start":13459.98,"end":13460.98,"text":"所以終於"},{"start":13460.98,"end":13461.98,"text":"你們也看到了"},{"start":13461.98,"end":13463.98,"text":"書記官的一個辛苦"},{"start":13463.98,"end":13464.98,"text":"而且負荷不了"},{"start":13464.98,"end":13466.98,"text":"而且案件delay"},{"start":13466.98,"end":13468.98,"text":"這樣子的一個惡性循環"},{"start":13468.98,"end":13470.98,"text":"所以終於你們要成立"},{"start":13470.98,"end":13473.98,"text":"這個全國電話中心"},{"start":13474.08,"end":13476.08,"text":"什麼時候開始示範"},{"start":13476.42,"end":13478.42,"text":"我們預計12月開始示範"},{"start":13478.42,"end":13479.42,"text":"1月份要正式上嗎"},{"start":13479.42,"end":13480.42,"text":"我們希望"},{"start":13480.42,"end":13481.42,"text":"正式運作"},{"start":13481.42,"end":13482.42,"text":"1月份正式運作"},{"start":13482.42,"end":13483.42,"text":"我們希望能夠"},{"start":13483.42,"end":13484.42,"text":"因為這個中間"},{"start":13484.42,"end":13486.42,"text":"像剛剛委員也有質詢到"},{"start":13486.42,"end":13487.42,"text":"這個電話內容"},{"start":13487.42,"end":13489.42,"text":"是要怎麼設計"},{"start":13489.42,"end":13491.42,"text":"這是非常重要的"},{"start":13491.42,"end":13492.42,"text":"那最重要是"},{"start":13492.42,"end":13494.42,"text":"如委員所說的"},{"start":13494.42,"end":13496.42,"text":"我們希望書記官"},{"start":13496.42,"end":13498.42,"text":"不要因為接聽電話"},{"start":13498.42,"end":13501.42,"text":"而打斷他的整個工作流程"},{"start":13501.42,"end":13502.42,"text":"而且接聽電話"},{"start":13502.42,"end":13504.42,"text":"是有他的專業性"},{"start":13504.42,"end":13505.42,"text":"對"},{"start":13505.42,"end":13506.42,"text":"你現在講到一個重點"},{"start":13506.42,"end":13507.42,"text":"我們今天有了"},{"start":13507.42,"end":13509.42,"text":"全國電話中心的目的"},{"start":13509.42,"end":13511.42,"text":"就是要減輕書記官的壓力"},{"start":13511.42,"end":13514.42,"text":"好好的協助審判的"},{"start":13514.42,"end":13515.42,"text":"這些核心工作"},{"start":13515.42,"end":13518.42,"text":"這才是在當書記官的重點"},{"start":13518.42,"end":13519.42,"text":"那所以呢"},{"start":13519.42,"end":13521.42,"text":"我們非常的希望"},{"start":13521.42,"end":13523.42,"text":"你不是只有把這個人力"},{"start":13523.42,"end":13524.42,"text":"搬到那個人力"},{"start":13524.42,"end":13525.42,"text":"不是"},{"start":13525.42,"end":13528.42,"text":"而是你要重新好好的去盤點"},{"start":13528.42,"end":13530.42,"text":"書記官他的人力不足"},{"start":13530.42,"end":13532.42,"text":"到底量體還有多少"},{"start":13532.42,"end":13534.42,"text":"真正的福地抽薪的"},{"start":13534.42,"end":13535.42,"text":"去解決這些問題"},{"start":13535.42,"end":13537.42,"text":"才是我們成立全國電話中心"},{"start":13537.42,"end":13538.42,"text":"的一個目的嘛"},{"start":13538.42,"end":13539.42,"text":"是不是"},{"start":13539.42,"end":13542.42,"text":"所以其實剛剛有委員提到"},{"start":13542.42,"end":13544.42,"text":"其實我們的"},{"start":13546.5,"end":13549.5,"text":"所有人數受限制"},{"start":13549.5,"end":13551.5,"text":"現在總共多少人"},{"start":13551.5,"end":13555.5,"text":"因為我們法定原額是15000人"},{"start":13555.5,"end":13556.5,"text":"實際原額呢"},{"start":13556.5,"end":13558.5,"text":"已經快接近15000了"},{"start":13558.5,"end":13561.5,"text":"所以其實我們現在是想方設法"},{"start":13561.5,"end":13564.5,"text":"因為我們要增援太難了"},{"start":13564.5,"end":13567.5,"text":"所以一定要用各種方法"},{"start":13567.5,"end":13568.5,"text":"可是書記官一個人"},{"start":13568.5,"end":13569.5,"text":"又做兩個人的工作"},{"start":13569.5,"end":13571.5,"text":"好謝謝秘書長的回答"},{"start":13571.5,"end":13572.5,"text":"我想我們共同的目標"},{"start":13572.5,"end":13575.5,"text":"第一個也就是整體進展"},{"start":13575.5,"end":13576.5,"text":"整體進展去探討"},{"start":13577.45,"end":13579.45,"text":"書記官他的工作量"},{"start":13579.45,"end":13581.45,"text":"我們從這聽電話"},{"start":13581.45,"end":13583.45,"text":"這個拉出來之後"},{"start":13583.45,"end":13585.45,"text":"那他的量體人力"},{"start":13585.45,"end":13586.45,"text":"到底是足還是不足"},{"start":13586.45,"end":13589.45,"text":"要做一個整體的規劃"},{"start":13589.45,"end":13592.45,"text":"那同時在全國電話中心裡頭"},{"start":13592.45,"end":13593.45,"text":"我們整個的規劃"},{"start":13593.45,"end":13596.45,"text":"必須要讓人民他是善用的"},{"start":13596.45,"end":13597.45,"text":"而且是適用的"},{"start":13597.45,"end":13598.45,"text":"這非常重要"},{"start":13598.45,"end":13601.45,"text":"我們也期待12月的這個事辦"},{"start":13601.45,"end":13602.45,"text":"他是成功的"},{"start":13602.45,"end":13604.45,"text":"1月份正式上路"},{"start":13604.45,"end":13605.45,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":13606.7,"end":13608.7,"text":"好謝謝顏委員的發言"},{"start":13608.7,"end":13610.7,"text":"我們接下來有請范雲委員發言"},{"start":13624.06,"end":13626.06,"text":"謝謝昭瑋"},{"start":13626.06,"end":13628.06,"text":"我第一題先請黃次長"},{"start":13628.06,"end":13630.06,"text":"待會再請高秘書長"},{"start":13630.06,"end":13631.06,"text":"請黃次長"},{"start":13632.6,"end":13633.6,"text":"委員好"},{"start":13633.6,"end":13634.6,"text":"次長您好"},{"start":13634.6,"end":13636.6,"text":"今天主要是追蹤"},{"start":13636.6,"end":13639.6,"text":"我4月30號首次質詢"},{"start":13639.6,"end":13642.6,"text":"7月22號再次質詢的主題"},{"start":13642.6,"end":13644.6,"text":"就是請法務部"},{"start":13644.6,"end":13646.6,"text":"那研議各國的經驗"},{"start":13646.6,"end":13648.6,"text":"就關於就是"},{"start":13648.6,"end":13651.6,"text":"性侵罪裡面所謂的國際說的"},{"start":13651.6,"end":13653.6,"text":"積極同意的定義"},{"start":13653.6,"end":13655.6,"text":"那7月22號的時候"},{"start":13655.6,"end":13656.6,"text":"剛好就是您"},{"start":13656.6,"end":13659.6,"text":"就是您已經承諾說"},{"start":13659.6,"end":13661.6,"text":"兩個月內會提供可行性的報告"},{"start":13661.6,"end":1366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Yes這個原則"},{"start":13667.6,"end":13669.6,"text":"那我們當時承諾是要再去搜尋"},{"start":13669.6,"end":13672.6,"text":"委員有提到法國跟丹麥的立法令"},{"start":13672.6,"end":13674.6,"text":"不要專門指引美國的立法令"},{"start":13674.6,"end":13675.6,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":13675.6,"end":13677.6,"text":"謝謝次長都有提到記得內容"},{"start":13677.6,"end":13679.6,"text":"就不要只看美國的"},{"start":13679.6,"end":13681.6,"text":"我們看丹麥跟法國這些"},{"start":13681.6,"end":13683.6,"text":"就是在性別平等方面"},{"start":13683.6,"end":13685.6,"text":"相當不錯的國家"},{"start":13685.6,"end":13687.6,"text":"那我今天主要是想要"},{"start":13687.6,"end":13689.6,"text":"第一個怕你們忘記"},{"start":13689.6,"end":13691.6,"text":"因為兩個月快到了"},{"start":13691.6,"end":13693.6,"text":"第二個也再次告訴您"},{"start":13693.6,"end":13695.6,"text":"為什麼特別關心這件事"},{"start":13696.6,"end":13698.6,"text":"那個次長您知道"},{"start":13698.6,"end":13700.6,"text":"我們的國際公約"},{"start":13700.6,"end":13701.6,"text":"就是CEDAW公約"},{"start":13701.6,"end":13703.6,"text":"已經國內法化"},{"start":13703.6,"end":13705.6,"text":"那其中裡面"},{"start":13705.6,"end":13707.6,"text":"有談到性別暴力的定義"},{"start":13707.6,"end":13711.6,"text":"它就是基於性別歧視跟權力的壓迫"},{"start":13711.6,"end":13712.6,"text":"我想定義的部分"},{"start":13712.6,"end":13713.6,"text":"我就不再講了"},{"start":13713.6,"end":13715.6,"text":"那我是特別提到說"},{"start":13715.6,"end":13718.6,"text":"裡面的第35號一般性建議"},{"start":13718.6,"end":13720.6,"text":"其實就是在講這個部分"},{"start":13720.6,"end":13721.6,"text":"他有提到說"},{"start":13721.6,"end":13724.6,"text":"確保對包含婚內強姦"},{"start":13724.6,"end":13726.6,"text":"跟熟人強姦或約會強姦"},{"start":13726.6,"end":13728.6,"text":"等性犯罪的界定"},{"start":13728.6,"end":13731.6,"text":"以缺少自願同意為基礎"},{"start":13731.6,"end":13734.6,"text":"並將脅迫情形要考慮在內"},{"start":13734.6,"end":13736.6,"text":"所以這其實"},{"start":13736.6,"end":13738.6,"text":"所謂的缺少自願同意"},{"start":13738.6,"end":13741.6,"text":"就是我們現在在討論的這一題"},{"start":13741.6,"end":13742.6,"text":"那所以呢"},{"start":13742.6,"end":13744.6,"text":"CEDAW的第二條就是"},{"start":13744.6,"end":13748.6,"text":"立約國應該採取一切適當的辦法"},{"start":13748.6,"end":13750.6,"text":"推行相關的政策"},{"start":13750.6,"end":13754.6,"text":"那也請法務部就是要落實這個公約"},{"start":13754.6,"end":13756.6,"text":"再次研議各國立法經驗"},{"start":13756.6,"end":13759.6,"text":"評估刑法的妨害新竹罪章"},{"start":13759.6,"end":13762.6,"text":"是不是應該要採積極同意"},{"start":13762.6,"end":13765.6,"text":"所以這部分次長可以同意吧"},{"start":13765.6,"end":13766.6,"text":"基本上"},{"start":13766.6,"end":13767.6,"text":"各位報告"},{"start":13767.6,"end":13768.6,"text":"我們稍微直接承諾"},{"start":13768.6,"end":13770.6,"text":"兩個月內會在9月22號以前"},{"start":13770.6,"end":13772.6,"text":"會把這相關的評估意見"},{"start":13772.6,"end":13776.6,"text":"送到郭永輝跟委員的手上"},{"start":13776.6,"end":13778.6,"text":"好 那也希望就是說"},{"start":13778.6,"end":13780.6,"text":"你們在這過程中可以多看"},{"start":13780.6,"end":13782.6,"text":"已經國內法化的CEDAW公約"},{"start":13782.6,"end":13784.6,"text":"他們對於剛剛我所講的"},{"start":13784.6,"end":13788.6,"text":"就是所謂自願同意的一個各種的論述"},{"start":13788.6,"end":13790.6,"text":"好不好 好 可以喔"},{"start":13790.6,"end":13791.6,"text":"那謝謝請回"},{"start":13791.6,"end":13793.6,"text":"那我們就期待你那個兩個月"},{"start":13793.6,"end":13794.6,"text":"應該是什麼時候會"},{"start":13794.6,"end":13797.6,"text":"9月22號給我們的報告"},{"start":13797.6,"end":13799.6,"text":"那希望這一次能夠比上次更嚴謹"},{"start":13799.6,"end":13801.6,"text":"能夠清楚看到各個國家"},{"start":13801.6,"end":13802.6,"text":"好不好 謝謝"},{"start":13804.46,"end":13806.46,"text":"好 那再來請那個高秘書長"},{"start":13807.32,"end":13808.32,"text":"好 有請高秘書長"},{"start":13811.26,"end":13812.26,"text":"我又好"},{"start":13812.26,"end":13817.26,"text":"您好 我今天也是想了解那個法官學院"},{"start":13817.26,"end":13823.26,"text":"他怎麼去辦理就是CEDAW的各種相關的訓練"},{"start":13823.26,"end":13827.26,"text":"那我們知道法官學院其實有一些課程"},{"start":13827.26,"end":13833.26,"text":"包含就是我看到有所謂的法官職前研習班"},{"start":13833.26,"end":13835.26,"text":"然後也有2024年增設了"},{"start":13835.26,"end":13838.26,"text":"強化CEDAW於法院之運用專班"},{"start":13838.26,"end":13840.26,"text":"還有你們也有所謂的"},{"start":13840.26,"end":13843.26,"text":"司法院級所屬各機關"},{"start":13843.26,"end":13846.26,"text":"推動性別主流化的實施計畫"},{"start":13846.26,"end":13848.26,"text":"有一個計畫已經結束了"},{"start":13848.26,"end":13850.26,"text":"還有一個計畫正在進行中"},{"start":13850.26,"end":13852.26,"text":"這個院長應該了解對不對"},{"start":13854.32,"end":13856.32,"text":"這個實施計畫細節我不了解"},{"start":13856.32,"end":13858.32,"text":"可是這是我們正在行充的"},{"start":13858.32,"end":13862.32,"text":"好 那您知不知道就是CEDAW的應用類"},{"start":13862.32,"end":13864.32,"text":"跟司法院的關係"},{"start":13864.32,"end":13866.32,"text":"目前最被大家詬病的問題是什麼"},{"start":13868.14,"end":13870.14,"text":"其實可以跟委員報告"},{"start":13870.14,"end":13874.14,"text":"其實CEDAW這種理念"},{"start":13874.14,"end":13878.14,"text":"真的是我們必須要讓"},{"start":13879.5,"end":13882.5,"text":"這個法官們必須要去學習"},{"start":13882.5,"end":13884.5,"text":"要去貫徹"},{"start":13884.5,"end":13888.5,"text":"那這個我相信就是得要內化成"},{"start":13888.5,"end":13889.5,"text":"自己的"},{"start":13889.79,"end":13890.79,"text":"我不敢講信仰"},{"start":13890.79,"end":13893.79,"text":"可是是自己必須要有思考模式"},{"start":13893.79,"end":13895.79,"text":"這是我們司法院"},{"start":13895.79,"end":13899.79,"text":"一直在藉由課程"},{"start":13899.79,"end":13900.79,"text":"藉由演講"},{"start":13900.79,"end":13904.79,"text":"希望法官不是只看到法律"},{"start":13904.79,"end":13906.79,"text":"而是要去了解"},{"start":13907.76,"end":13910.76,"text":"你處理的當事人之間的問題"},{"start":13910.76,"end":13912.76,"text":"謝謝 好 那我想那個秘書長很了解"},{"start":13912.76,"end":13914.76,"text":"那我想請問您"},{"start":13914.76,"end":13915.76,"text":"那您如何知道"},{"start":13915.76,"end":13917.76,"text":"法官到底懂不懂CEDAW"},{"start":13917.76,"end":13919.76,"text":"我們這個"},{"start":13919.81,"end":13921.81,"text":"就是說訓練了半天"},{"start":13921.81,"end":13923.81,"text":"他們懂或不懂"},{"start":13923.81,"end":13925.81,"text":"我們的判準是什麼"},{"start":13925.81,"end":13926.81,"text":"其實"},{"start":13927.68,"end":13930.68,"text":"可能外界第一個就看你判決的"},{"start":13932.02,"end":13935.02,"text":"這個就是法官對外的語言表示"},{"start":13935.02,"end":13936.02,"text":"就是從法官的判決對不對"},{"start":13936.02,"end":13940.02,"text":"對 還有他的整個審理過程"},{"start":13940.02,"end":13941.02,"text":"審理的過程"},{"start":13941.02,"end":13942.02,"text":"是"},{"start":13942.02,"end":13946.02,"text":"那如果司法院重視這個東西的話"},{"start":13946.02,"end":13949.02,"text":"你們有什麼機制來確定"},{"start":13949.02,"end":13951.02,"text":"譬如說我們要跟其他國家比"},{"start":13951.02,"end":13954.02,"text":"我們的法官真的懂了CEDAW"},{"start":13954.02,"end":13956.02,"text":"而且落實在判決中"},{"start":13956.02,"end":13958.02,"text":"你這個指標是什麼"},{"start":13958.02,"end":13961.02,"text":"我相信各位都能夠了解"},{"start":13961.02,"end":13962.02,"text":"能夠考上法官"},{"start":13962.02,"end":13964.02,"text":"他資質都不錯"},{"start":13964.02,"end":13967.02,"text":"他學習能力也應該不錯"},{"start":13967.02,"end":13969.02,"text":"可是我們要尊重他的獨立性"},{"start":13969.02,"end":13972.02,"text":"所以就司法院來講"},{"start":13972.02,"end":13974.02,"text":"我們就是廣設課程"},{"start":13974.02,"end":13975.02,"text":"而且是要要求"},{"start":13975.02,"end":13977.02,"text":"我自己也是老師在上課"},{"start":13977.02,"end":13978.02,"text":"上了半天"},{"start":13978.02,"end":13980.02,"text":"有時候學生在滑手機"},{"start":13980.02,"end":13982.02,"text":"那所以到底如何知道"},{"start":13982.02,"end":13984.02,"text":"學生有沒有學到"},{"start":13984.02,"end":13986.02,"text":"法官要上課的時候"},{"start":13986.02,"end":13989.02,"text":"他在法官學院也是學生"},{"start":13989.02,"end":13992.02,"text":"那到底他有沒有學到CEDAW"},{"start":13992.02,"end":13995.02,"text":"就是你們怎麼判斷"},{"start":13995.02,"end":13998.02,"text":"當然因為整個是學習課程的設計"},{"start":13998.02,"end":14001.02,"text":"我相信這跟學習課程設計有關係"},{"start":14001.02,"end":14002.02,"text":"我們不用繞來繞去"},{"start":14002.02,"end":14004.02,"text":"你怎麼作為秘書長"},{"start":14004.02,"end":14006.02,"text":"你怎麼知道法官"},{"start":14006.02,"end":14008.02,"text":"有沒有了解CEDAW"},{"start":14008.02,"end":14010.02,"text":"有應用在你剛講的判決"},{"start":14010.02,"end":14012.02,"text":"還有這個過程"},{"start":14012.78,"end":14013.78,"text":"最簡單"},{"start":14013.78,"end":14015.78,"text":"你有沒有任何的機制跟指標"},{"start":14015.78,"end":14017.78,"text":"看判決就知道"},{"start":14017.78,"end":14018.78,"text":"那你們怎麼看"},{"start":14018.78,"end":14020.78,"text":"他有沒有運用到CEDAW"},{"start":14022.97,"end":14023.97,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":14023.97,"end":14026.97,"text":"我們司法院對於法官"},{"start":14026.97,"end":14029.97,"text":"是不是有去了解CEDAW"},{"start":14029.97,"end":14031.97,"text":"當然是從判決來看"},{"start":14031.97,"end":14033.97,"text":"那你們的了解結果是什麼"},{"start":14033.97,"end":14034.97,"text":"你知不知道"},{"start":14034.97,"end":14037.97,"text":"當然我們要講說"},{"start":14037.97,"end":14039.97,"text":"正在學習中"},{"start":14039.97,"end":14040.97,"text":"沒有啊"},{"start":14040.97,"end":14041.97,"text":"那他到底學習好了沒有啊"},{"start":14044.28,"end":14045.28,"text":"就是指標"},{"start":14046.12,"end":14048.12,"text":"要求他一直學習"},{"start":14049.43,"end":14051.43,"text":"因為我們不可能"},{"start":14051.43,"end":14053.43,"text":"這個一定是一直學習"},{"start":14053.43,"end":14054.43,"text":"然後從"},{"start":14054.43,"end":14055.43,"text":"然後從沒有"},{"start":14055.43,"end":14057.43,"text":"有沒有及格都不知道"},{"start":14058.54,"end":14059.54,"text":"一直開課"},{"start":14059.54,"end":14061.54,"text":"不知道就是說學生"},{"start":14061.54,"end":14063.54,"text":"法官是在滑手機"},{"start":14063.54,"end":14065.54,"text":"還是有學到CEDAW"},{"start":14065.54,"end":14066.54,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":14066.54,"end":14067.54,"text":"其實上課"},{"start":14067.54,"end":14068.54,"text":"他是滑手機"},{"start":14068.54,"end":14069.54,"text":"當然不能講"},{"start":14069.54,"end":14072.54,"text":"可是從判決的呈現"},{"start":14073.98,"end":14074.98,"text":"那判決怎麼呈現"},{"start":14074.98,"end":14076.98,"text":"他有沒有了解CEDAW"},{"start":14076.98,"end":14077.98,"text":"時間不夠了"},{"start":14077.98,"end":14078.98,"text":"真的沒有辦法"},{"start":14078.98,"end":14079.98,"text":"在這邊繞了"},{"start":14079.98,"end":14080.98,"text":"您剛剛很多答案"},{"start":14080.98,"end":14081.98,"text":"都答得這麼好"},{"start":14081.98,"end":14083.98,"text":"這麼直接還被稱讚"},{"start":14083.98,"end":14084.98,"text":"那這一題的話"},{"start":14084.98,"end":14085.98,"text":"不是因為委員問的"},{"start":14085.98,"end":14087.98,"text":"這一定要從判決來看"},{"start":14087.98,"end":14089.98,"text":"那判決你們有在看嗎"},{"start":14089.98,"end":14090.98,"text":"有"},{"start":14090.98,"end":14091.98,"text":"指標是什麼"},{"start":14091.98,"end":14092.98,"text":"我們都在統計"},{"start":14092.98,"end":14093.98,"text":"指標是什麼"},{"start":14093.98,"end":14095.98,"text":"像他對於這個"},{"start":14095.98,"end":14097.98,"text":"這個什麼"},{"start":14097.98,"end":14099.98,"text":"等於判決分析一樣"},{"start":14099.98,"end":14100.98,"text":"那分析的結果是什麼"},{"start":14100.98,"end":14102.98,"text":"當然我們還有"},{"start":14103.55,"end":14104.55,"text":"在進步的必要"},{"start":14104.55,"end":14106.55,"text":"不是現在的情況如何嘛"},{"start":14108.41,"end":14109.41,"text":"我當然不能說"},{"start":14109.41,"end":14110.41,"text":"請"},{"start":14110.41,"end":14111.41,"text":"我很滿意"},{"start":14111.41,"end":14113.41,"text":"那你不滿意的指標是什麼"},{"start":14113.41,"end":14116.41,"text":"我覺得就是就個案裡面"},{"start":14116.41,"end":14119.41,"text":"法官關於這些的思考度"},{"start":14119.41,"end":14120.41,"text":"我覺得"},{"start":14120.41,"end":14122.41,"text":"你如果問我個人"},{"start":14122.41,"end":14124.41,"text":"我覺得必須精進"},{"start":14124.41,"end":14125.41,"text":"必須精進"},{"start":14125.41,"end":14126.41,"text":"好"},{"start":14126.41,"end":14127.41,"text":"那但是你還是沒有"},{"start":14127.41,"end":14128.41,"text":"跟我說指標啦"},{"start":14128.41,"end":14129.41,"text":"我先跟你講一下"},{"start":14129.41,"end":14131.41,"text":"國際審查委員"},{"start":14131.41,"end":14133.41,"text":"已經多次說"},{"start":14133.41,"end":14135.41,"text":"就是CEDAW的培訓"},{"start":14135.41,"end":14138.41,"text":"就是不只應該是必修科目"},{"start":14138.41,"end":14140.41,"text":"那更應該從學校法律系所"},{"start":14140.41,"end":14142.41,"text":"但那個部分不是你們管的"},{"start":14142.41,"end":14145.41,"text":"檢察官以及法官的職前培訓"},{"start":14145.41,"end":14146.41,"text":"法務部也有關啦"},{"start":14146.41,"end":14147.41,"text":"那法官這部分"},{"start":14147.41,"end":14149.41,"text":"當然是跟你們的法官學院"},{"start":14149.41,"end":14151.41,"text":"那當然我們有去查了"},{"start":14151.41,"end":14153.41,"text":"你們上課的情況"},{"start":14153.41,"end":14156.41,"text":"你們有44%的CEDAW"},{"start":14156.41,"end":14157.41,"text":"或性別主流化課程"},{"start":14157.41,"end":14159.41,"text":"是線上學習"},{"start":14159.41,"end":14162.41,"text":"那我問了曾經幫你們上課的老師"},{"start":14162.41,"end":14163.41,"text":"他們真的不知道"},{"start":14163.41,"end":14165.41,"text":"線上學習的效果如何"},{"start":14165.41,"end":14167.41,"text":"因為是線上嘛"},{"start":14167.41,"end":14169.41,"text":"那當然現場會比較好"},{"start":14169.41,"end":14170.41,"text":"我們假設比較好"},{"start":14170.41,"end":14172.41,"text":"但是因為你們沒有"},{"start":14172.41,"end":14174.41,"text":"任何的評量機制"},{"start":14174.41,"end":14175.41,"text":"所以真的效果不確定"},{"start":14175.41,"end":14177.41,"text":"只知道人數"},{"start":14177.41,"end":14179.41,"text":"我們看到你們的指標"},{"start":14179.41,"end":14180.41,"text":"就只有辦理場次"},{"start":14180.41,"end":14183.41,"text":"跟課程參訓率"},{"start":14183.41,"end":14184.41,"text":"那但是呢"},{"start":14184.41,"end":14186.41,"text":"就是國際公約"},{"start":14186.41,"end":14188.41,"text":"今年國際審查委員"},{"start":14188.41,"end":14189.41,"text":"他們都是聯合國的"},{"start":14189.41,"end":14191.41,"text":"CEDAW國際審查委員喔"},{"start":14191.41,"end":14193.41,"text":"他們再次提到說"},{"start":14193.41,"end":14195.41,"text":"你們應該要強化"},{"start":14195.41,"end":14199.41,"text":"裁判書引用CEDAW的數量跟品質"},{"start":14199.41,"end":14202.41,"text":"然後國際審查主席說"},{"start":14202.41,"end":14205.41,"text":"台灣把CEDAW國內法劃"},{"start":14205.41,"end":14208.41,"text":"但是司法部門是否真正落實CEDAW"},{"start":14208.41,"end":14210.41,"text":"是一大問題"},{"start":14210.41,"end":14215.41,"text":"那如果裁判書引用CEDAW的數量跟品質"},{"start":14215.41,"end":14216.41,"text":"我們來看的話"},{"start":14216.41,"end":14219.41,"text":"那真的非常的抱歉"},{"start":14219.41,"end":14220.41,"text":"非常少"},{"start":14220.41,"end":14222.41,"text":"而且專家們喔"},{"start":14222.41,"end":14224.41,"text":"就是司法改革團體"},{"start":14224.41,"end":14226.41,"text":"認為你們的數據"},{"start":14226.41,"end":14229.41,"text":"混水的可能性很高"},{"start":14229.41,"end":14231.41,"text":"就算有混水好了"},{"start":14231.41,"end":14234.41,"text":"那以兒童權力公約"},{"start":14234.41,"end":14235.41,"text":"兩公約"},{"start":14235.41,"end":14237.41,"text":"身障公約比起"},{"start":14237.41,"end":14240.41,"text":"CEDAW公約引用非常少耶"},{"start":14240.41,"end":14241.41,"text":"兒童權力公約"},{"start":14241.41,"end":14243.41,"text":"兒童的權力都比較被重視"},{"start":14243.41,"end":14245.41,"text":"超過一萬件"},{"start":14245.41,"end":14248.41,"text":"CEDAW只有298件"},{"start":14248.41,"end":14251.41,"text":"而且要跟秘書長講"},{"start":14251.41,"end":14253.41,"text":"不是法官引用的"},{"start":14253.41,"end":14256.41,"text":"是受害端"},{"start":14256.41,"end":14257.41,"text":"所謂的是"},{"start":14257.41,"end":14259.41,"text":"就是這一端引用的"},{"start":14259.41,"end":14263.41,"text":"而且高度集中在引用同一個案例"},{"start":14263.41,"end":14265.41,"text":"所以很多時候算起來"},{"start":14265.41,"end":14267.41,"text":"還不完全算是喔"},{"start":14267.41,"end":14268.41,"text":"所以你們的法官"},{"start":14268.41,"end":14271.41,"text":"幾乎很少引用"},{"start":14271.41,"end":14274.41,"text":"那更不用跟兒童權力公約比"},{"start":14275.3,"end":14278.3,"text":"兩公約還有身障公約"},{"start":14278.3,"end":14279.3,"text":"為什麼跟婦女"},{"start":14279.3,"end":14281.3,"text":"這麼重要的這個CEDAW"},{"start":14281.3,"end":14284.3,"text":"它幾乎不被你們的法官了解"},{"start":14284.3,"end":14286.3,"text":"也很少被引用"},{"start":14286.3,"end":14289.3,"text":"那這真的是一大問題"},{"start":14289.3,"end":14291.3,"text":"是不是一大問題"},{"start":14291.3,"end":14292.3,"text":"就是說它難道不比"},{"start":14292.3,"end":14294.3,"text":"兒童權力公約重要"},{"start":14294.3,"end":14296.3,"text":"跟身障公約重要嗎"},{"start":14296.3,"end":14297.3,"text":"而且幾乎都不是"},{"start":14297.3,"end":14299.3,"text":"你們的法官在引用耶"},{"start":14299.3,"end":14301.3,"text":"我只能跟委員報告"},{"start":14301.3,"end":14302.3,"text":"因為CEDAW公約"},{"start":14302.3,"end":14304.3,"text":"如果已經內化成我們的法律"},{"start":14304.3,"end":14306.3,"text":"我們法官就可能不會用"},{"start":14306.3,"end":14307.3,"text":"CEDAW公約"},{"start":14307.3,"end":14308.3,"text":"不是CEDAW公約"},{"start":14308.3,"end":14309.3,"text":"已經國內法化啦"},{"start":14309.3,"end":14311.3,"text":"不對我的意思是說"},{"start":14311.3,"end":14314.3,"text":"我們在具體法條"},{"start":14314.3,"end":14317.3,"text":"如果是跟它符合"},{"start":14317.3,"end":14318.3,"text":"當然法官就不會"},{"start":14318.3,"end":14319.3,"text":"因為他如果根本就不懂"},{"start":14319.3,"end":14321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可能如委員所說的"},{"start":14531.39,"end":14533.39,"text":"是不是可能你線上"},{"start":14533.39,"end":14534.39,"text":"是有沒有專心"},{"start":14534.39,"end":14537.39,"text":"不管是線上或者是實體"},{"start":14537.39,"end":14539.39,"text":"都要有一個機制"},{"start":14539.39,"end":14543.39,"text":"當然就線上來上課來講"},{"start":14543.39,"end":14544.39,"text":"是有機制"},{"start":14544.39,"end":14546.39,"text":"其實他有沒有學到"},{"start":14546.39,"end":14548.39,"text":"是我們現在要問的"},{"start":14548.39,"end":14550.39,"text":"那法官有沒有學到"},{"start":14550.39,"end":14553.39,"text":"就等於說他在裁判上"},{"start":14553.39,"end":14556.39,"text":"他在審判過程中"},{"start":14556.39,"end":14557.39,"text":"他有沒有表現"},{"start":14557.39,"end":14560.39,"text":"審判是一個自然的落實"},{"start":14560.39,"end":14561.39,"text":"但是就是說"},{"start":14561.39,"end":14563.39,"text":"這個是我們可以回來監測"},{"start":14563.39,"end":14564.39,"text":"但我們不可能"},{"start":14564.39,"end":14565.39,"text":"直接影響他的審判"},{"start":14565.39,"end":14567.39,"text":"他要獨立判斷"},{"start":14567.39,"end":14569.39,"text":"可是培訓有沒有效果"},{"start":14569.39,"end":14571.39,"text":"我想時間有限"},{"start":14571.39,"end":14574.39,"text":"這個部分是全國律師聯合會"},{"start":14574.39,"end":14576.39,"text":"跟台北律師公會"},{"start":14576.39,"end":14577.39,"text":"逐步去核對說"},{"start":14577.39,"end":14578.39,"text":"其實這個都是"},{"start":14578.39,"end":14580.39,"text":"當事人自行引用"},{"start":14580.39,"end":14581.39,"text":"298件"},{"start":14581.39,"end":14582.39,"text":"很少是你們的法官"},{"start":14582.39,"end":14584.39,"text":"而且高度引用同一個判決"},{"start":14584.39,"end":14586.39,"text":"那基本上就是"},{"start":14586.39,"end":14589.39,"text":"所以我們直接來講"},{"start":14589.39,"end":14592.39,"text":"我覺得全體法官涵蓋率"},{"start":14592.39,"end":14594.39,"text":"當然應該是你的憑良指標"},{"start":14594.39,"end":14597.39,"text":"但是你要有憑良監督機制"},{"start":14597.39,"end":14598.39,"text":"好不好"},{"start":14598.39,"end":14600.39,"text":"你到底去上課"},{"start":14600.39,"end":14601.39,"text":"有沒有學到"},{"start":14601.39,"end":14603.39,"text":"你要找出憑良監督機制"},{"start":14603.39,"end":14605.39,"text":"最後你要全面盤點"},{"start":14605.39,"end":14607.39,"text":"系統性的去研析"},{"start":14607.39,"end":14609.39,"text":"CEDAW到底是面臨什麼挑戰"},{"start":14609.39,"end":14611.39,"text":"為什麼大家都沒有引用"},{"start":14611.39,"end":14614.39,"text":"來增進我們CEDAW國際委員"},{"start":14614.39,"end":14617.39,"text":"來台灣我們請他們來"},{"start":14617.39,"end":14619.39,"text":"每次都有提到吃法院"},{"start":14619.39,"end":14620.39,"text":"好不好"},{"start":14620.39,"end":14623.39,"text":"那不應該浪費他們寶貴的意見"},{"start":14623.39,"end":14624.39,"text":"那多久之內"},{"start":14625.81,"end":14627.81,"text":"我想不是立刻可以達到"},{"start":14627.81,"end":14628.81,"text":"做法要不要出來"},{"start":14628.81,"end":14630.81,"text":"多久之內可以給本席報告"},{"start":14631.62,"end":14633.62,"text":"這個應該要三個月"},{"start":14633.62,"end":14635.62,"text":"是不是給我們三個月的時間"},{"start":14635.62,"end":14636.62,"text":"三個月"},{"start":14636.62,"end":14637.62,"text":"伸出方法"},{"start":14637.62,"end":14638.62,"text":"兩個月可不可以"},{"start":14638.62,"end":14639.62,"text":"方法三個月"},{"start":14639.62,"end":14641.62,"text":"因為這個還要跟法官學院"},{"start":14641.62,"end":14642.62,"text":"大家共同來共事"},{"start":14642.62,"end":14644.62,"text":"三個月現在是八月中"},{"start":14644.62,"end":14645.62,"text":"對 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那我就這個我們"},{"start":15000.19,"end":15003.19,"text":"這個字眼是不是請示你"},{"start":15003.19,"end":15004.19,"text":"你才是的"},{"start":15004.19,"end":15005.19,"text":"可是委員好"},{"start":15005.19,"end":15006.19,"text":"如果要說的話"},{"start":15006.19,"end":15010.19,"text":"我們是要告訴請他們告訴我們"},{"start":15010.19,"end":15012.19,"text":"確切的會寫時間而已喔"},{"start":15012.19,"end":15014.19,"text":"你可以在這裡硬拗"},{"start":15014.19,"end":15017.19,"text":"你這裡講說本院才會"},{"start":15017.19,"end":15020.19,"text":"將刑法修正案列入你們"},{"start":15020.19,"end":15022.19,"text":"6月25號的院會"},{"start":15024.16,"end":15028.16,"text":"那個委員可不可以請我們那個刑事廳"},{"start":15028.16,"end":15029.16,"text":"你們刑事廳"},{"start":15029.16,"end":15031.16,"text":"這裡面有寫刑事廳嗎"},{"start":15031.16,"end":15035.16,"text":"這裡講的是請示你高大秘書長"},{"start":15035.16,"end":15038.16,"text":"請你高大秘書長才是耶"},{"start":15039.1,"end":15040.1,"text":"你再說"},{"start":15040.1,"end":15041.1,"text":"當天我質詢你"},{"start":15041.1,"end":15043.1,"text":"你說絕對沒有"},{"start":15043.1,"end":15046.1,"text":"現在說好 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你剛才跟兩位拜訪說話說得很差"},{"start":15066.1,"end":15070.1,"text":"就像剛才王世堅委員指教你的"},{"start":15070.1,"end":15072.1,"text":"你剛才質詢的時候"},{"start":15072.1,"end":15075.1,"text":"可以當場訓斥法務部"},{"start":15075.1,"end":15079.1,"text":"或許王世堅委員他講的意思是說"},{"start":15079.1,"end":15082.1,"text":"你對我們法務部次長的講話"},{"start":15082.1,"end":15084.1,"text":"非常的不客氣"},{"start":15084.61,"end":15086.61,"text":"但是或許你自己不知道"},{"start":15086.61,"end":15090.61,"text":"你經常的就是這樣子講話"},{"start":15090.61,"end":15094.61,"text":"所以你個人交代下去"},{"start":15094.61,"end":15096.61,"text":"人家把你原封不動的原意"},{"start":15096.61,"end":15099.61,"text":"這樣子講給行政院的人聽"},{"start":15099.61,"end":15101.61,"text":"報告委員喔"},{"start":15101.61,"end":15103.61,"text":"這個是一段的line"},{"start":15103.61,"end":15105.61,"text":"一段的line沒有錯啊"},{"start":15105.61,"end":15107.61,"text":"你承認這個是事實吧"},{"start":15107.61,"end":15109.61,"text":"這個line是有這個line"},{"start":15109.61,"end":15112.61,"text":"但是這個line跟你講的交換完全兩回事"},{"start":15112.61,"end":15115.61,"text":"第一個你們承認這個line的內容"},{"start":15115.61,"end":15117.61,"text":"真的是存在的"},{"start":15117.61,"end":15121.61,"text":"第二個你們認為解讀這幾個字的文字"},{"start":15121.61,"end":15123.61,"text":"你們的解讀"},{"start":15123.61,"end":15126.61,"text":"跟我們社會大眾的解讀不一樣"},{"start":15126.61,"end":15128.61,"text":"這個怎麼會是交換"},{"start":15128.61,"end":15130.61,"text":"我現在就是交換啊"},{"start":15130.61,"end":15132.61,"text":"請告知啊"},{"start":15132.61,"end":15135.61,"text":"你們刑事訴訟法何時要一起彙嫌啊"},{"start":15135.61,"end":15139.61,"text":"我們才要將你的獨家修法一起彙嫌"},{"start":15139.61,"end":15141.61,"text":"在院會通過啊"},{"start":15141.61,"end":15143.61,"text":"這個彙嫌25號就召開院會"},{"start":15143.61,"end":15145.61,"text":"這跟我們向人彙嫌的習慣是不符的"},{"start":15145.61,"end":15148.61,"text":"6月18號你們問行政部門的人"},{"start":15148.61,"end":15150.61,"text":"然後6月22"},{"start":15150.61,"end":15155.61,"text":"人家行政院的人不願意跟你一起彙嫌"},{"start":15155.61,"end":15156.61,"text":"然後公文就給你們"},{"start":15156.61,"end":15160.61,"text":"你們也只能6月25趕快通過獨家"},{"start":15160.61,"end":15162.61,"text":"我現在意思是說"},{"start":15162.61,"end":15164.61,"text":"這個跟你無關啊"},{"start":15164.61,"end":15166.61,"text":"你不要跳進來"},{"start":15166.61,"end":15168.61,"text":"護航你們的秘書長"},{"start":15168.61,"end":15170.61,"text":"秘書長"},{"start":15170.61,"end":15174.61,"text":"這你的事情不要擺大附屬的下賤啦"},{"start":15174.61,"end":15176.61,"text":"請你答詢啊秘書長"},{"start":15176.61,"end":15180.61,"text":"你不應該跟全國人民道歉"},{"start":15180.61,"end":15185.61,"text":"有關人民交通安全最重要的獨家的修法"},{"start":15185.61,"end":15188.61,"text":"竟然是你拿來交換的籌碼"},{"start":15188.61,"end":15190.61,"text":"重點是交換"},{"start":15190.61,"end":15192.61,"text":"草案我們積極幫助來研擬"},{"start":15192.61,"end":15194.61,"text":"6月25號"},{"start":15194.61,"end":15196.61,"text":"就是你們那天講的"},{"start":15196.61,"end":15200.61,"text":"下週院會就是6月25號"},{"start":15200.61,"end":15202.61,"text":"好來"},{"start":15203.58,"end":15205.58,"text":"秘書長我繼續問你"},{"start":15205.58,"end":15207.58,"text":"行政院就是不同意交換"},{"start":15207.58,"end":15209.58,"text":"所以今天"},{"start":15209.58,"end":15211.58,"text":"今天沒有看到兩院一起彙嫌的"},{"start":15211.58,"end":15215.58,"text":"刑事訴訟法的修正版本嗎"},{"start":15215.58,"end":15217.58,"text":"沒有嘛"},{"start":15217.74,"end":15219.74,"text":"因為行政院不同意啊"},{"start":15219.74,"end":15221.74,"text":"人家不願意啊"},{"start":15221.25,"end":15224.25,"text":"那你剛才在那裡躲在聽長的後面"},{"start":15224.25,"end":15226.25,"text":"叫聽長叫他上前線"},{"start":15226.25,"end":15228.25,"text":"這件事情是你"},{"start":15228.25,"end":15229.25,"text":"不是聽長"},{"start":15229.25,"end":15233.25,"text":"他是告知會協時間跟交換會協的兩件事情"},{"start":15233.25,"end":15237.25,"text":"這一段文字交給媒體交給全國民眾去解讀"},{"start":15237.25,"end":15241.25,"text":"看是你們凹得不凹得過去啦"},{"start":15241.25,"end":15243.25,"text":"那我現在要講回到"},{"start":15243.25,"end":15245.25,"text":"我們這一次刑事訴訟法的修法"},{"start":15247.15,"end":15249.15,"text":"秘書長你就是"},{"start":15250.15,"end":15252.15,"text":"絕對死不認錯"},{"start":15252.15,"end":15254.15,"text":"絕不道歉是不是你先回答我"},{"start":15257.97,"end":15259.97,"text":"也應該要道歉"},{"start":15259.97,"end":15261.97,"text":"這段文字有沒有錯"},{"start":15261.46,"end":15263.46,"text":"真的我要必須"},{"start":15264.16,"end":15266.16,"text":"我沒有躲在任何地方"},{"start":15266.16,"end":15268.16,"text":"來啦我問你這一段文字有沒有錯"},{"start":15268.16,"end":15270.16,"text":"這樣的講法有沒有錯啦"},{"start":15270.16,"end":15272.16,"text":"我們只是希望"},{"start":15272.16,"end":15274.16,"text":"因為我們只是問你東西來"},{"start":15274.16,"end":15276.16,"text":"沒有不要再硬啊"},{"start":15276.16,"end":15278.16,"text":"你就告訴我你覺得我這樣寫沒有錯"},{"start":15278.16,"end":15280.16,"text":"你也可以這樣子講啊"},{"start":15280.16,"end":15282.16,"text":"這個是我們"},{"start":15282.16,"end":15284.16,"text":"或者是你覺得這樣講"},{"start":15284.16,"end":15286.16,"text":"我口直心快我講太快了"},{"start":15286.16,"end":15288.16,"text":"我沒有這個心或許表達的不恰當"},{"start":15288.16,"end":15290.16,"text":"我很抱歉"},{"start":15291.67,"end":15293.67,"text":"但是你認為完全"},{"start":15293.67,"end":15295.67,"text":"你這樣子講都沒有錯嗎"},{"start":15296.39,"end":15298.39,"text":"你這樣講都沒有啊"},{"start":15298.39,"end":15300.39,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":15300.39,"end":15302.39,"text":"我們怎麼可能用交換"},{"start":15302.39,"end":15304.39,"text":"如果要交換我們為什麼"},{"start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但他有公告在網站上"},{"start":15833.31,"end":15835.31,"text":"你們的版本"},{"start":15835.31,"end":15837.31,"text":"就是通通都不用寫"},{"start":15837.31,"end":15839.31,"text":"司法院如果用"},{"start":15839.31,"end":15841.31,"text":"這種簡化判決書的方式"},{"start":15841.31,"end":15843.31,"text":"然後不寫原因理由"},{"start":15843.31,"end":15845.31,"text":"為什麼給他"},{"start":15845.31,"end":15847.31,"text":"用刑法59條前刊民訴"},{"start":15847.31,"end":15849.31,"text":"給他減半"},{"start":15849.31,"end":15851.31,"text":"為什麼用5758條給他減輕其罪"},{"start":15851.31,"end":15853.31,"text":"你通通都沒有寫"},{"start":15853.31,"end":15855.31,"text":"判在兩年以下"},{"start":15855.31,"end":15857.31,"text":"這個社會"},{"start":15857.31,"end":15859.31,"text":"可以接受嗎"},{"start":15859.31,"end":15861.31,"text":"我在舉例 刑法221條"},{"start":15861.31,"end":15863.31,"text":"的強制性交罪"},{"start":15863.31,"end":15865.31,"text":"我們今天時間已經超過太多了"},{"start":15865.31,"end":15867.31,"text":"不好意思 我想您的這個例子"},{"start":15867.31,"end":15869.31,"text":"大概就是司法院那裡都清楚"},{"start":15869.31,"end":15871.31,"text":"主席我真的要結束了"},{"start":15871.31,"end":15873.31,"text":"221條的強制性交罪"},{"start":15873.31,"end":15875.31,"text":"法定刑也是三年以上"},{"start":15875.31,"end":15877.31,"text":"一樣可以判兩年"},{"start":15877.31,"end":15879.31,"text":"以下強制性交罪"},{"start":15879.31,"end":15881.31,"text":"然後沒有寫理由"},{"start":15881.31,"end":15883.31,"text":"天啊 你們為什麼"},{"start":15883.31,"end":15885.31,"text":"人民覺得法定刑就三年以上"},{"start":15885.31,"end":15887.31,"text":"你怎麼可能判兩年"},{"start":15887.31,"end":15889.31,"text":"然後沒有寫理由"},{"start":15889.31,"end":15891.31,"text":"然後他不知道 人民真的"},{"start":15891.31,"end":15893.31,"text":"我覺得傷害人民的情感"},{"start":15893.31,"end":15895.31,"text":"跟委員報告 醫事用司法條在裡面"},{"start":15895.31,"end":15897.31,"text":"一定是要寫的"},{"start":15897.31,"end":15899.31,"text":"你們的版本就是不用"},{"start":15899.31,"end":15901.31,"text":"我最後再講"},{"start":15901.31,"end":15903.31,"text":"這個修法會有什麼風險"},{"start":15903.31,"end":15905.31,"text":"這個修法跟無中縣委員"},{"start":15905.31,"end":15907.31,"text":"他就是請無中縣委員提案"},{"start":15907.31,"end":15909.31,"text":"無中縣委員有稍微加一個附帶條款"},{"start":15909.31,"end":15911.31,"text":"但是呢"},{"start":15911.31,"end":15913.31,"text":"這個修法會有高度的道德風險"},{"start":15913.31,"end":15915.31,"text":"判決書簡化"},{"start":15915.31,"end":15917.31,"text":"然後寫成兩頁"},{"start":15917.31,"end":15919.31,"text":"民事暗示被告認罪"},{"start":15919.31,"end":15921.31,"text":"然後判兩年"},{"start":15921.31,"end":15923.31,"text":"再給緩刑 全部皆大歡行"},{"start":15923.31,"end":15925.31,"text":"然後社會大眾不明白為什麼"},{"start":15925.31,"end":15927.31,"text":"重罪會變成兩年"},{"start":15927.31,"end":15929.31,"text":"為什麼重大犯罪被法院減刑"},{"start":15929.31,"end":15931.31,"text":"為什麼法院認為"},{"start":15931.31,"end":15933.31,"text":"59條情刊民訴"},{"start":15933.31,"end":15935.31,"text":"可以引用的理由是什麼"},{"start":15935.31,"end":15937.31,"text":"不知道 結果"},{"start":15937.29,"end":15939.29,"text":"這樣判下去"},{"start":15939.29,"end":15941.29,"text":"你們擴大了簡化判決書"},{"start":15941.29,"end":15943.29,"text":"都沒有寫理由"},{"start":15943.29,"end":15945.29,"text":"受傷的是司法公信力"},{"start":15945.29,"end":15947.29,"text":"是社會大眾的"},{"start":15947.29,"end":15949.29,"text":"正當法律情感"},{"start":15949.29,"end":15951.29,"text":"你們會導致"},{"start":15951.29,"end":15953.29,"text":"人民在現在"},{"start":15953.29,"end":15955.29,"text":"對你們司法已經不信任的上面"},{"start":15955.29,"end":15957.29,"text":"在更雪上加霜 更不信任"},{"start":15957.29,"end":15959.29,"text":"我相信在司法裡面"},{"start":15959.29,"end":15961.29,"text":"檢察官是扮演重要的角色"},{"start":15960.96,"end":15962.96,"text":"好 我相信"},{"start":15962.96,"end":15964.96,"text":"請那個林委員我上次今天的會議"},{"start":15964.96,"end":15966.96,"text":"法官是整個司法審判的第三者"},{"start":15966.96,"end":15968.96,"text":"請林委員"},{"start":15968.96,"end":15970.96,"text":"不是檢察官說了算"},{"start":15970.96,"end":15972.96,"text":"如果法官是檢察官的起訴書"},{"start":15972.96,"end":15974.96,"text":"說了算 就不需要法院了"},{"start":15974.96,"end":15976.96,"text":"我想"},{"start":15976.96,"end":15978.96,"text":"林委員他所提的意見"},{"start":15978.96,"end":15980.96,"text":"司法院應該都已經"},{"start":15980.96,"end":15982.96,"text":"接去聽到了"},{"start":15982.96,"end":15984.96,"text":"先前已經很多的委員"},{"start":15984.96,"end":15986.96,"text":"針對這個案子"},{"start":15986.96,"end":15988.96,"text":"已經有最下層的意見"},{"start":15988.96,"end":15990.96,"text":"我們重視"},{"start":15990.96,"end":15992.96,"text":"降低法官的工作量"},{"start":15992.96,"end":15994.96,"text":"但是你不能損及人民權益"},{"start":15994.96,"end":15996.96,"text":"不能損及司法的公信力"},{"start":15996.96,"end":15998.96,"text":"不能傷害"},{"start":15998.96,"end":16000.96,"text":"人民的正當法律情感"},{"start":16000.96,"end":16002.96,"text":"勞役不均"},{"start":16002.96,"end":16004.96,"text":"主席我跟您報告勞役不均的問題"},{"start":16004.96,"end":16006.96,"text":"沒有解決"},{"start":16006.96,"end":16008.96,"text":"勞役不均"},{"start":16008.96,"end":16010.96,"text":"很多庭長 審判長"},{"start":16010.96,"end":16012.96,"text":"他的工作分案量"},{"start":16012.96,"end":16014.96,"text":"都交給其他法官"},{"start":16014.96,"end":16016.96,"text":"他們的自傷法院"},{"start":16016.96,"end":16018.96,"text":"自傷法院 行政法院"},{"start":16018.96,"end":16020.96,"text":"跟一般法院"},{"start":16020.96,"end":16022.96,"text":"行政上的分配不均"},{"start":16022.96,"end":16024.96,"text":"所以這個 你要從"},{"start":16024.96,"end":16026.96,"text":"解決"},{"start":16026.96,"end":16028.96,"text":"你們要從總而管制去解決"},{"start":16028.96,"end":16030.96,"text":"你們要引進"},{"start":16030.96,"end":16032.96,"text":"副作風繼續解決"},{"start":16032.96,"end":16034.96,"text":"而不是優先在這裡"},{"start":16034.96,"end":16036.96,"text":"兩年"},{"start":16036.96,"end":16038.96,"text":"兩年"},{"start":16038.96,"end":16040.96,"text":"判刑兩年"},{"start":16040.96,"end":16042.96,"text":"有"},{"start":16042.96,"end":16044.96,"text":"這個是不行的啦"},{"start":16044.96,"end":16046.96,"text":"這樣不行的啦"},{"start":16046.96,"end":16048.96,"text":"都還被他"},{"start":16048.96,"end":16050.96,"text":"交換還不道歉"},{"start":16050.96,"end":16052.96,"text":"還硬挖 還被收罰"},{"start":16052.96,"end":16054.96,"text":"才生更多的問題"},{"start":16054.96,"end":16056.96,"text":"立委跟你們講"},{"start":16056.96,"end":16058.96,"text":"我真的發現"},{"start":16058.96,"end":16060.96,"text":"我們張偉跟高機智秘書長"},{"start":16060.96,"end":16062.96,"text":"交情很好喔"},{"start":16062.96,"end":16064.96,"text":"很好喔"},{"start":16064.96,"end":16066.96,"text":"秘書長才會請吳宗憲委員"},{"start":16066.96,"end":16068.96,"text":"提案喔"},{"start":16068.96,"end":16070.96,"text":"秘書長才會請吳宗憲委員"},{"start":16070.96,"end":16072.96,"text":"提案喔"},{"start":16072.96,"end":16074.96,"text":"我這邊要請林委員"},{"start":16074.96,"end":16076.96,"text":"我對你的交情"},{"start":16076.96,"end":16078.96,"text":"基本上已經跟別的委員交情是不一樣了啦"},{"start":16078.96,"end":16080.96,"text":"但你們兩個更好啊"},{"start":16080.96,"end":16082.96,"text":"我沒有說度長"},{"start":16082.96,"end":16084.96,"text":"我只是說維持一個會議的秩序"},{"start":16084.96,"end":16086.96,"text":"現在後面都沒有人要質詢啦"},{"start":16086.96,"end":16088.96,"text":"會議委員質詢時間是五分鐘"},{"start":16088.96,"end":16090.96,"text":"已經超過了三倍的時間"},{"start":16090.96,"end":16092.96,"text":"在今天開會的話"},{"start":16092.96,"end":16094.96,"text":"可以分際第二輪發言啊"},{"start":16094.96,"end":16096.96,"text":"我要是影響到大家開會的時間"},{"start":16096.96,"end":16098.96,"text":"好就這樣結束"},{"start":16098.96,"end":16100.96,"text":"這不是"},{"start":16100.96,"end":16102.96,"text":"關到未來人民的問題嗎"},{"start":16103.93,"end":16105.93,"text":"犧牲人民權益的問題不用討論"}],"speakers":[{"total_seconds":108.91,"embed_id":"SPEAKER_00","speaker":"SPEAKER_01","embedding":"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"},{"total_seconds":1163.01,"embed_id":"SPEAKER_01","speaker":"SPEAKER_13","embedding":"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"},{"total_seconds":772.15,"embed_id":"SPEAKER_02","speaker":"SPEAKER_03","embedding":"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