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謝謝主席"},{"start":2336.66,"end":2337.66,"text":"這個部分"},{"start":2337.66,"end":2341.66,"text":"因為我們知道就是"},{"start":2341.66,"end":2343.66,"text":"運動選手的一個"},{"start":2343.66,"end":2346.66,"text":"職業轉型生涯發展"},{"start":2346.66,"end":2348.66,"text":"很值得我們重視"},{"start":2348.66,"end":2351.66,"text":"因為他們為國家效力"},{"start":2351.66,"end":2353.66,"text":"甚至是很多"},{"start":2353.66,"end":2355.66,"text":"都是從很小的年紀"},{"start":2355.66,"end":2358.66,"text":"就投入運動"},{"start":2358.66,"end":2361.66,"text":"在這裡我當然我們都很支持"},{"start":2361.66,"end":2363.66,"text":"只不過想要請教一下"},{"start":2363.66,"end":2365.66,"text":"也請教育部回應一下"},{"start":2365.66,"end":2367.66,"text":"因為這個地方是說"},{"start":2367.66,"end":2371.66,"text":"曾入選國家代表隊"},{"start":2371.66,"end":2373.66,"text":"我不曉得說"},{"start":2373.66,"end":2376.66,"text":"曾入選國家代表隊"},{"start":2376.66,"end":2379.66,"text":"它的這個定義"},{"start":2379.66,"end":2383.66,"text":"而且它的範圍會不會很廣很多"},{"start":2383.66,"end":2386.66,"text":"當然在最後一項有說"},{"start":2386.66,"end":2388.66,"text":"它的資格條件"},{"start":2388.66,"end":2390.66,"text":"由中央主管定制"},{"start":2390.66,"end":2392.66,"text":"但是我是覺得說"},{"start":2392.66,"end":2394.66,"text":"這個曾入選國家代表隊"},{"start":2394.66,"end":2397.66,"text":"我比較擔心的是說"},{"start":2397.66,"end":2399.66,"text":"會不會反而讓以後機關"},{"start":2399.66,"end":2401.66,"text":"感到很困擾"},{"start":2401.66,"end":2403.66,"text":"就是人人有資格"},{"start":2403.66,"end":2405.66,"text":"那就變成說"},{"start":2405.66,"end":2408.66,"text":"可能要靠什麼關係之類"},{"start":2408.66,"end":2410.66,"text":"造成機關的困擾"},{"start":2410.66,"end":2412.66,"text":"是不是應該讓它"},{"start":2412.66,"end":2414.66,"text":"在資格條件方面"},{"start":2414.66,"end":2416.66,"text":"然後更明確"},{"start":2416.66,"end":2419.66,"text":"例如說具備一定的資格條件"},{"start":2419.66,"end":2422.66,"text":"且入選國家代表隊等等"},{"start":2422.66,"end":2423.66,"text":"因為這個部分"},{"start":2423.66,"end":2424.66,"text":"我也不夠專業"},{"start":2424.66,"end":2425.66,"text":"不是很了解"},{"start":2425.66,"end":2426.66,"text":"所以想聽一下"},{"start":2426.66,"end":2428.66,"text":"教育部這邊的回應"},{"start":2428.66,"end":2430.66,"text":"運動部這邊的回應"},{"start":2433.32,"end":2435.32,"text":"好 請運動部回應 謝謝"},{"start":2436.07,"end":2440.07,"text":"市長 我們是否可以先請市長回答"},{"start":2440.51,"end":2442.51,"text":"市長請說 沒關係"},{"start":2444.05,"end":2446.05,"text":"各位展覽大家好"},{"start":2446.05,"end":2449.05,"text":"因為我也是運動選手出身"},{"start":2449.05,"end":2451.05,"text":"其實我們現在的選手"},{"start":2451.05,"end":2453.05,"text":"國手 入選國手的"},{"start":2453.05,"end":2455.05,"text":"目前的選手大部分"},{"start":2455.05,"end":2458.05,"text":"90%到95%在學校"},{"start":2458.05,"end":2460.05,"text":"然後我們現在所謂的國手"},{"start":2460.05,"end":2462.05,"text":"因為跟20 30年前不大一樣"},{"start":2462.05,"end":2464.05,"text":"現在一個運動種類的國手"},{"start":2464.05,"end":2468.05,"text":"就會有U15 U18 U21成人"},{"start":2468.05,"end":2470.05,"text":"所以如果以剛剛所講"},{"start":2470.05,"end":2472.05,"text":"一個積極運動來分量級的話"},{"start":2472.05,"end":2473.05,"text":"如果有12個量級"},{"start":2473.05,"end":2477.05,"text":"他大概一年會產出將近72個國手"},{"start":2477.05,"end":2478.05,"text":"所以這個量"},{"start":2478.05,"end":2481.05,"text":"我們現在有44個奧運的運動種類"},{"start":2481.05,"end":2483.05,"text":"這個算起來是產出"},{"start":2483.05,"end":2486.05,"text":"選手的量是非常龐大的"},{"start":2486.05,"end":2488.05,"text":"再來就是說人量這麼大"},{"start":2488.05,"end":2490.05,"text":"沒有一個鑑別度"},{"start":2490.05,"end":2492.05,"text":"在後續的作業可能就會有"},{"start":2492.05,"end":2494.05,"text":"有些關書的情況發生"},{"start":2494.05,"end":2496.05,"text":"甚至對於有成績的選手來講"},{"start":2496.05,"end":2499.05,"text":"那個所謂公平度也不大一樣"},{"start":2499.05,"end":2500.05,"text":"再來國手"},{"start":2500.05,"end":2503.05,"text":"世界錦標賽跟亞洲錦標賽"},{"start":2503.05,"end":2504.05,"text":"那個成績又不大一樣"},{"start":2504.05,"end":2506.05,"text":"奧運跟亞運又不一樣"},{"start":2506.05,"end":2508.05,"text":"所以這個地方是值得我們稍微"},{"start":2508.05,"end":2510.05,"text":"要去注意跟盤點"},{"start":2510.05,"end":2512.05,"text":"所以我很贊成剛剛瑋瑜所講"},{"start":2512.05,"end":2514.05,"text":"要有一定的資格"},{"start":2514.05,"end":2516.05,"text":"那我們整個就全部可以照顧到"},{"start":2516.05,"end":2518.05,"text":"那也有"},{"start":2518.05,"end":2519.05,"text":"也可以有一個比較好的做法"},{"start":2519.05,"end":2522.05,"text":"再來是因為各大專院校"},{"start":2522.05,"end":2524.05,"text":"現在其實提供給"},{"start":2524.6,"end":2527.6,"text":"運動選手的師資課程非常的多"},{"start":2527.6,"end":2529.6,"text":"而且對他們有特別優惠"},{"start":2529.6,"end":2532.6,"text":"所以這些選手如果他在大學端"},{"start":2532.6,"end":2534.6,"text":"學校有課業輔導跟所謂的"},{"start":2534.6,"end":2536.6,"text":"職業生涯輔導"},{"start":2536.6,"end":2538.6,"text":"現在其實都做得還不錯"},{"start":2538.6,"end":2539.6,"text":"所以說這個地方"},{"start":2539.6,"end":2541.6,"text":"他是大學生的話"},{"start":2541.6,"end":2542.6,"text":"學校已經在做這件事情了"},{"start":2542.6,"end":2544.6,"text":"如果他長期調到國訓"},{"start":2544.6,"end":2547.6,"text":"國訓也持續在做相關的事情"},{"start":2547.6,"end":2549.6,"text":"也就是說我們現在的大專院校"},{"start":2549.6,"end":2551.6,"text":"培育我們這些競技運動選手"},{"start":2551.6,"end":2553.6,"text":"專業的一個大學"},{"start":2553.6,"end":2555.6,"text":"他們其實都有一套的做法"},{"start":2555.6,"end":2557.6,"text":"在輔導這些優秀選手"},{"start":2557.6,"end":2559.6,"text":"那當然我們站在一個中央"},{"start":2559.6,"end":2561.6,"text":"中央的單位來講"},{"start":2561.6,"end":2563.6,"text":"我們目前所謂的"},{"start":2563.6,"end":2564.6,"text":"我們的國體法的22條"},{"start":2564.6,"end":2566.6,"text":"已經有一個很好的規範在那個地方"},{"start":2566.6,"end":2568.6,"text":"所以目前甚至第三個"},{"start":2568.6,"end":2570.6,"text":"我們現在運作起來其實是蠻順暢的"},{"start":2570.6,"end":2572.6,"text":"目前其實各縣市政府"},{"start":2572.6,"end":2574.6,"text":"在招考運動教練的時候"},{"start":2574.6,"end":2576.6,"text":"也會特別優惠"},{"start":2576.6,"end":2578.6,"text":"這些有入選國手或是有成績的"},{"start":2578.6,"end":2581.6,"text":"那在國訓中心也是每一年會招聘"},{"start":2581.6,"end":2584.6,"text":"奧亞運的選手轉任運動教練"},{"start":2584.6,"end":2586.6,"text":"所以這一件事情其實在"},{"start":2586.6,"end":2589.6,"text":"這幾年來在大家的努力之下"},{"start":2589.6,"end":2591.6,"text":"其實是非常的順暢有進展"},{"start":2591.6,"end":2593.6,"text":"所以是建議是不是暫緩"},{"start":2593.6,"end":2596.6,"text":"先用原來的條例來作業"},{"start":2596.6,"end":2597.6,"text":"以上"},{"start":2603.29,"end":2605.29,"text":"您還有發言嗎部長"},{"start":2605.29,"end":2607.29,"text":"也是可以委員發言我繼續發言"},{"start":2607.29,"end":2608.29,"text":"我們有"},{"start":2608.29,"end":2609.29,"text":"看你啊"},{"start":2609.29,"end":2610.29,"text":"我可以先發言嗎"},{"start":2610.29,"end":2611.29,"text":"好啊謝謝"},{"start":2611.29,"end":2612.29,"text":"委員不好意思"},{"start":2612.28,"end":2613.28,"text":"謝謝趙偉"},{"start":2613.28,"end":2615.28,"text":"那其實還是要"},{"start":2615.28,"end":2618.28,"text":"本人自己也是選手剛退役沒多久"},{"start":2618.28,"end":2620.28,"text":"那我們還是希望說"},{"start":2620.74,"end":2622.74,"text":"現在學生運動員我們還是期待"},{"start":2622.74,"end":2624.74,"text":"希望可以教育正常化這件事情"},{"start":2624.74,"end":2626.74,"text":"那其實現在學生運動員"},{"start":2626.74,"end":2627.74,"text":"是非常多元的發展"},{"start":2627.74,"end":2630.74,"text":"那我個人就是台北商業大學"},{"start":2630.74,"end":2632.74,"text":"那可能蔡委員"},{"start":2632.74,"end":2635.74,"text":"我相信兩位委員其實都對選手非常的關注"},{"start":2635.74,"end":2639.74,"text":"那我也相信蔡委員自己也是選手出身的話"},{"start":2639.74,"end":2641.74,"text":"那我們應該要知道選手的多元發展"},{"start":2641.74,"end":2643.74,"text":"我們不應該去侷限他"},{"start":2643.74,"end":2645.74,"text":"比如說您剛剛有可能有提到"},{"start":2645.74,"end":2647.74,"text":"某個項目可能會往哪個方向發展會比較好"},{"start":2647.74,"end":2648.74,"text":"那我想"},{"start":2648.74,"end":2650.74,"text":"我想每個項目有每個項目"},{"start":2650.74,"end":2652.74,"text":"他可能更適合"},{"start":2652.74,"end":2654.74,"text":"但我們不應該用某個部分去侷限他"},{"start":2654.74,"end":2656.74,"text":"比如說以去年"},{"start":2656.74,"end":2658.74,"text":"這個世大運的金牌"},{"start":2658.74,"end":2660.74,"text":"那他同樣也是在就讀台大"},{"start":2660.74,"end":2662.74,"text":"我想他也有他的一些生涯規劃"},{"start":2662.74,"end":2664.74,"text":"我想當然"},{"start":2664.74,"end":2666.74,"text":"我們希望是給選手"},{"start":2666.74,"end":2668.74,"text":"更加明確的"},{"start":2668.74,"end":2670.74,"text":"這個輔導生涯的部分"},{"start":2670.74,"end":2672.74,"text":"那當然就如同"},{"start":2672.74,"end":2674.74,"text":"這個目前看起來的條文上面"},{"start":2674.74,"end":2677.74,"text":"在這個成入選國家代表隊"},{"start":2677.74,"end":2679.74,"text":"確實是非常的"},{"start":2679.74,"end":2681.74,"text":"涵瓜非常大"},{"start":2681.74,"end":2683.74,"text":"比如說有U15"},{"start":2683.74,"end":2684.74,"text":"U17"},{"start":2684.74,"end":2686.74,"text":"U19甚至成人代表隊"},{"start":2686.74,"end":2689.74,"text":"其實他已經是非常龐大的一個部分"},{"start":2689.74,"end":2691.74,"text":"那更黃潤未來還有"},{"start":2691.74,"end":2694.74,"text":"關於世界運動會的各個種類"},{"start":2694.74,"end":2696.74,"text":"還有包含今天上午開的"},{"start":2696.74,"end":2698.74,"text":"有跟周偉報告過的"},{"start":2698.74,"end":2700.74,"text":"包含未來的新興項目"},{"start":2700.74,"end":2702.74,"text":"我想這不只是"},{"start":2702.74,"end":2704.74,"text":"這個我們運動部能做到的"},{"start":2704.74,"end":2706.74,"text":"那我想選手的"},{"start":2706.74,"end":2709.74,"text":"這個定義也有待我們繼續去探討"},{"start":2709.74,"end":2712.74,"text":"那當然我們現行一直在做的是"},{"start":2712.74,"end":2714.74,"text":"在選手在國訓中心的這個"},{"start":2714.74,"end":2716.74,"text":"奧亞運的培育之後"},{"start":2716.74,"end":2717.74,"text":"我們不只他培育他"},{"start":2717.74,"end":2720.74,"text":"比如說像國訓中心也會開烘焙課"},{"start":2720.74,"end":2722.74,"text":"那當然在奧亞運項目"},{"start":2722.74,"end":2724.74,"text":"我們也有四年有一百位的"},{"start":2724.74,"end":2726.74,"text":"輔導他們去學校的部分"},{"start":2726.74,"end":2729.74,"text":"我想不管是這個一定資格的部分"},{"start":2729.74,"end":2731.74,"text":"或者是在培育的部分"},{"start":2731.74,"end":2733.74,"text":"包含我過去在國訓中心"},{"start":2733.74,"end":2735.74,"text":"晚上在上課的時候"},{"start":2735.74,"end":2737.74,"text":"也有正常的上課"},{"start":2737.74,"end":2739.74,"text":"那也額外想要補足"},{"start":2739.74,"end":2740.74,"text":"英文的部分"},{"start":2740.74,"end":2741.74,"text":"國訓中心都可以安排"},{"start":2741.74,"end":2743.74,"text":"那我相信蔡委員肯定是"},{"start":2743.74,"end":2745.74,"text":"依照可以幫助選手"},{"start":2745.74,"end":2748.74,"text":"更多的最大化的部分去思考"},{"start":2748.74,"end":2749.74,"text":"那當然我想"},{"start":2749.74,"end":2751.74,"text":"我還是要再次重申運動部"},{"start":2751.74,"end":2753.74,"text":"在這個議題上面"},{"start":2753.74,"end":2754.74,"text":"絕對不落人後"},{"start":2754.74,"end":2756.74,"text":"所以我們真的非常支持選手"},{"start":2756.74,"end":2757.74,"text":"那我們也試圖"},{"start":2757.74,"end":2759.74,"text":"正在用非常多的方法去"},{"start":2759.74,"end":2761.74,"text":"輔導各個選手在生涯發展"},{"start":2761.74,"end":2762.74,"text":"跟質押賺錢"},{"start":2763.74,"end":2766.74,"text":"那同步也要先再續名一次"},{"start":2766.74,"end":2768.74,"text":"未來這個在高中"},{"start":2768.74,"end":2771.74,"text":"本來高中跟大學的升學管道"},{"start":2771.74,"end":2773.74,"text":"就是由教育部在主管"},{"start":2773.74,"end":2774.74,"text":"那我相信剛剛吳委員"},{"start":2774.74,"end":2776.74,"text":"應該也是在講這一個"},{"start":2776.74,"end":2777.74,"text":"那在會有已經明定"},{"start":2777.74,"end":2779.74,"text":"甄審跟甄氏還有讀招"},{"start":2779.74,"end":2782.74,"text":"還有轉學參班考試等等的方式"},{"start":2782.74,"end":2784.74,"text":"還有我們的高中職體育班的"},{"start":2784.74,"end":2786.74,"text":"特色招生等等的入學管道"},{"start":2786.74,"end":2789.74,"text":"其實都是非常多先進"},{"start":2789.74,"end":2792.74,"text":"去幫我們體育運動"},{"start":2793.75,"end":2796.75,"text":"的學生運動員去找到的管道"},{"start":2796.75,"end":2798.75,"text":"那我們也希望後續"},{"start":2798.75,"end":2799.75,"text":"包含我自己就讀"},{"start":2799.75,"end":2800.75,"text":"台北上大學的時候"},{"start":2800.75,"end":2802.75,"text":"也是依照甄氏的方法就讀"},{"start":2802.75,"end":2803.75,"text":"所以我想"},{"start":2803.75,"end":2806.75,"text":"目前的運動部已經國訓中心"},{"start":2806.75,"end":2807.75,"text":"其實都在非常積極的輔導"},{"start":2807.75,"end":2809.75,"text":"每一個學生運動員"},{"start":2809.75,"end":2812.75,"text":"在這個生涯轉嫌的部分"},{"start":2812.75,"end":2814.75,"text":"我想這是我們非常重視的"},{"start":2814.75,"end":2816.75,"text":"那先跟各位委員報告"},{"start":2816.75,"end":2817.75,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":2818.8,"end":2819.8,"text":"好 參政委員"},{"start":2819.8,"end":2821.8,"text":"我們就"},{"start":2823.07,"end":2825.07,"text":"趕快確認一下好嗎"},{"start":2825.07,"end":2828.07,"text":"好 剛剛施長"},{"start":2828.07,"end":2830.07,"text":"有說了很多項目"},{"start":2830.07,"end":2832.07,"text":"還有那個部長"},{"start":2832.07,"end":2834.07,"text":"有談到有很多的一個"},{"start":2834.07,"end":2835.07,"text":"轉型的一個機制"},{"start":2835.07,"end":2838.07,"text":"其實我非常非常的樂見"},{"start":2838.07,"end":2841.07,"text":"那現在我們當然知道說"},{"start":2841.07,"end":2843.07,"text":"運動部都一直有在做"},{"start":2843.07,"end":2845.07,"text":"那我們今天入法"},{"start":2845.07,"end":2848.07,"text":"把這個陳入選這個要入法"},{"start":2848.07,"end":2851.07,"text":"主要就是我們用一個法律"},{"start":2851.07,"end":2853.07,"text":"來協助我們一些選手"},{"start":2853.07,"end":2855.07,"text":"那我想剛剛有講"},{"start":2855.07,"end":2856.07,"text":"已經做了很多了"},{"start":2856.07,"end":2859.07,"text":"那真正需要"},{"start":2859.07,"end":2861.07,"text":"來找運動部幫忙的人"},{"start":2861.07,"end":2863.07,"text":"大概也沒有多少人了"},{"start":2863.07,"end":2864.07,"text":"因為已經也有"},{"start":2864.07,"end":2867.07,"text":"在學校有開一些課程"},{"start":2867.07,"end":2871.07,"text":"運動中心也有做一些課程"},{"start":2871.07,"end":2872.07,"text":"跟轉型的一個輔導"},{"start":2872.07,"end":2874.07,"text":"那我們只是說"},{"start":2874.07,"end":2876.07,"text":"要讓一些漏掉的"},{"start":2876.07,"end":2877.07,"text":"他比較"},{"start":2877.07,"end":2878.07,"text":"他需要"},{"start":2878.07,"end":2880.07,"text":"他可能在剛剛講"},{"start":2880.07,"end":2883.07,"text":"這個地方沒有銜接到"},{"start":2883.07,"end":2885.07,"text":"然後有一個管道"},{"start":2885.07,"end":2887.07,"text":"讓他有這樣一個機會"},{"start":2887.07,"end":2892.07,"text":"來申請運動部給他一個協助"},{"start":2892.07,"end":2895.07,"text":"我們只是說要讓這個法律"},{"start":2895.07,"end":2897.07,"text":"用法律來保障我們的選手"},{"start":2897.07,"end":2899.07,"text":"那事實上這些都在做"},{"start":2899.07,"end":2900.07,"text":"目前也都在做"},{"start":2900.07,"end":2901.07,"text":"我們也都肯定"},{"start":2901.07,"end":2903.07,"text":"而且也樂見"},{"start":2903.07,"end":2904.07,"text":"那只是說我們入法"},{"start":2904.07,"end":2907.07,"text":"主要就是說保障這些選手"},{"start":2907.07,"end":2909.07,"text":"而已 沒有損失什麼"},{"start":2909.07,"end":2912.07,"text":"然後剛剛講的U12 U16"},{"start":2912.07,"end":2914.07,"text":"這一個事實上跟"},{"start":2914.07,"end":2916.07,"text":"這些選手就是必須要"},{"start":2916.07,"end":2919.07,"text":"經歷這一些的一個比賽"},{"start":2919.07,"end":2920.07,"text":"他才有資格"},{"start":2920.07,"end":2923.07,"text":"有機會參加更高等級的"},{"start":2923.07,"end":2925.07,"text":"譬如說亞運奧運"},{"start":2925.07,"end":2927.07,"text":"這樣的一個機會"},{"start":2927.07,"end":2929.07,"text":"那我們這裡也有強調"},{"start":2929.07,"end":2931.07,"text":"你的條件 你的對象"},{"start":2931.07,"end":2936.07,"text":"這個就是有中央主管機關"},{"start":2936.07,"end":2937.07,"text":"來訂定的"},{"start":2937.07,"end":2939.07,"text":"訂定的 我們也沒有做任何說"},{"start":2939.07,"end":2940.07,"text":"指定說一定要是誰"},{"start":2940.07,"end":2943.07,"text":"或者是這個寬度"},{"start":2943.07,"end":2948.07,"text":"也是由運動部來做一個評定"},{"start":2948.07,"end":2951.07,"text":"我們也沒有限制說"},{"start":2951.07,"end":2953.07,"text":"一定要用哪些人沒有"},{"start":2953.07,"end":2955.07,"text":"這個彈性在運動部"},{"start":2955.07,"end":2957.07,"text":"我們只是說希望"},{"start":2957.07,"end":2959.07,"text":"用法律來保障運動選手"},{"start":2959.07,"end":2960.07,"text":"這樣而已"},{"start":2960.07,"end":2963.07,"text":"然後如果是說連法律來保障選手"},{"start":2963.07,"end":2965.07,"text":"這一個都有猶豫的話"},{"start":2965.07,"end":2968.07,"text":"那我就不知道我們要用"},{"start":2968.07,"end":2969.07,"text":"怎樣的一個行動"},{"start":2969.07,"end":2972.07,"text":"來保護我們國家的選手"},{"start":2975.14,"end":2977.14,"text":"吳立華委員 你要發言嗎"},{"start":2977.98,"end":2979.98,"text":"好 請說"},{"start":2979.98,"end":2980.98,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":2980.98,"end":2985.98,"text":"因為我覺得大概理解這個意思"},{"start":2985.98,"end":2988.98,"text":"我想我們也是覺得"},{"start":2988.98,"end":2990.98,"text":"本來就應該做這件事"},{"start":2990.98,"end":2995.98,"text":"而運動部也正在做這件事"},{"start":2995.98,"end":2997.98,"text":"所以我的意思是說"},{"start":2997.98,"end":2999.98,"text":"我想提個修正動議"},{"start":2999.98,"end":3003.98,"text":"是不是可以在您的那個條文"},{"start":3003.98,"end":3006.98,"text":"您是新增第四項"},{"start":3008.42,"end":3010.42,"text":"就現行條文"},{"start":3011.12,"end":3013.12,"text":"您是新增第三項"},{"start":3013.12,"end":3015.12,"text":"對 新增第三項"},{"start":3015.12,"end":3018.12,"text":"好 那是不是還是去"},{"start":3019.37,"end":3022.37,"text":"可以協助符合一定資格條件這樣子"},{"start":3023.79,"end":3026.79,"text":"這個符合條件是有動作的"},{"start":3026.79,"end":3028.79,"text":"對 我的意思說這樣會比較保險"},{"start":3028.79,"end":3029.79,"text":"我們這樣折衝好不好"},{"start":3029.79,"end":3030.79,"text":"這樣子 我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":3030.79,"end":3031.79,"text":"你們討論一下"},{"start":3031.79,"end":3032.79,"text":"好 休息"},{"start":3449.08,"end":3450.08,"text":"好 開會"},{"start":3463.02,"end":3464.02,"text":"好 來"},{"start":3464.11,"end":3465.11,"text":"再最後確認一下"},{"start":3465.11,"end":3467.11,"text":"請問蔡總統委員你的意見"},{"start":3467.11,"end":3469.11,"text":"協商大家都要有共識"},{"start":3469.11,"end":3470.11,"text":"我們才可以進行結論"},{"start":3474.59,"end":3475.59,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":3475.98,"end":3477.98,"text":"請蔡總統委員回應"},{"start":3484.08,"end":3485.08,"text":"我保留啊"},{"start":3485.08,"end":3486.08,"text":"就是我們剛剛"},{"start":3487.74,"end":3488.74,"text":"麥克風 謝謝"},{"start":3491.18,"end":3493.18,"text":"既然沒有達到共識"},{"start":3493.18,"end":3497.18,"text":"那我們就把保留的送院會處理"},{"start":3497.18,"end":3498.18,"text":"好"},{"start":3499.08,"end":3501.08,"text":"本案協商無法取得共識"},{"start":3501.08,"end":3504.08,"text":"依立法院資訊新司法第12章相關規定處理"},{"start":3509.32,"end":3511.32,"text":"現在進行主題二"},{"start":3512.87,"end":3513.87,"text":"請換場"},{"start":3515.09,"end":3516.09,"text":"謝謝部長"},{"start":3535.38,"end":3538.38,"text":"好 有請張廖萬尖次長"},{"start":3540.34,"end":3542.34,"text":"綜合規劃師陳師長"},{"start":3544.25,"end":3546.25,"text":"教育部國民學前教育署 秋"},{"start":3547.83,"end":3548.83,"text":"組長"},{"start":3549.94,"end":3551.94,"text":"教育部法治署 鄭處長"},{"start":3553.26,"end":3555.26,"text":"農糧署 黃副署長"},{"start":3557.16,"end":3560.16,"text":"植物防檢藝署 郭署長"},{"start":3562.6,"end":3564.6,"text":"畜牧師 鄭家紅科長"},{"start":3565.33,"end":3567.33,"text":"經濟部國際貿易組 林小林"},{"start":3569.19,"end":3570.19,"text":"代理科長"},{"start":3571.81,"end":3574.81,"text":"衛生福利部國民健康署 麥研究員"},{"start":3577.28,"end":3582.28,"text":"衛生福利部食品藥物管理署 食品組 許朝凱組長"},{"start":3582.81,"end":3586.81,"text":"衛生福利部心理健康師 洪嘉基專務委員"},{"start":3587.39,"end":3588.39,"text":"環境部"},{"start":3588.84,"end":3590.84,"text":"謝專委 以上"},{"start":3593.93,"end":3595.93,"text":"繼續進行主題二協商"},{"start":3595.93,"end":3597.93,"text":"協商教育及文化委員會"},{"start":3597.93,"end":3599.93,"text":"報告 并按審查"},{"start":3600.6,"end":3602.6,"text":"委員廖偉祥等十八人"},{"start":3602.6,"end":3603.6,"text":"學校衛生法第二十二條"},{"start":3603.6,"end":3605.6,"text":"第二十三條條文之三"},{"start":3605.6,"end":3607.6,"text":"條文修正草案等十二案"},{"start":3607.6,"end":3609.6,"text":"本案經一百一十八年"},{"start":3609.6,"end":3611.6,"text":"對不起 一百一十五年"},{"start":3611.6,"end":3613.6,"text":"八月十二日召開第十一屆"},{"start":3613.6,"end":3615.6,"text":"第五會期 第二十六次"},{"start":3615.6,"end":3617.6,"text":"會議審查完卻"},{"start":3617.6,"end":3619.6,"text":"審查結果 第十六條"},{"start":3619.6,"end":3621.6,"text":"修正通過 第二十二條不予修正"},{"start":3621.6,"end":3623.6,"text":"維持現行條文"},{"start":3623.6,"end":3625.6,"text":"第二十三條及二十三條之三"},{"start":3625.6,"end":3627.6,"text":"保留 送院會處理"},{"start":3627.6,"end":3629.6,"text":"並決議交由黨團協商"},{"start":3629.6,"end":3632.6,"text":"第十六條條文修正前進院會"},{"start":3632.6,"end":3634.6,"text":"於一百一十五年八月二十一日"},{"start":3634.6,"end":3636.6,"text":"三讀通過 不予處理"},{"start":3636.6,"end":3638.6,"text":"為求效率 我們是不是就保留"},{"start":3638.6,"end":3640.6,"text":"部分進行直接討論"},{"start":3640.6,"end":3642.6,"text":"有共識的部分 先照審查會"},{"start":3642.6,"end":3644.6,"text":"審查結果通過"},{"start":3644.6,"end":3646.6,"text":"如果"},{"start":3646.36,"end":3648.36,"text":"各位協商代表對於審查會"},{"start":3648.36,"end":3650.36,"text":"通過條文有意見"},{"start":3650.36,"end":3652.36,"text":"待保留條文處理完"},{"start":3652.36,"end":3654.36,"text":"繼續進行處理 請問各位有無意見"},{"start":3657.03,"end":3659.03,"text":"好 沒有意見就照宣告的內容通過"},{"start":3662.9,"end":3664.9,"text":"保留條文第二條 我們先看第"},{"start":3665.4,"end":3667.4,"text":"保留條文總共兩條 我們先看第二十三條"},{"start":3667.4,"end":3669.4,"text":"請各黨團表示意見"},{"start":3681.14,"end":3683.14,"text":"好 請五位委員"},{"start":3682.95,"end":3684.95,"text":"好 謝謝主席"},{"start":3686.8,"end":3688.8,"text":"我先"},{"start":3688.38,"end":3690.38,"text":"來表達一下"},{"start":3690.38,"end":3692.38,"text":"其實是延續"},{"start":3692.38,"end":3694.38,"text":"上一次的意見"},{"start":3694.38,"end":3696.38,"text":"但是我還是"},{"start":3696.38,"end":3698.38,"text":"再把立場再講一次"},{"start":3698.38,"end":3700.38,"text":"第一個"},{"start":3700.38,"end":3702.38,"text":"我還是考量到"},{"start":3702.38,"end":3704.38,"text":"就是關於法律的"},{"start":3704.38,"end":3706.38,"text":"條文的體力的問題"},{"start":3706.38,"end":3708.38,"text":"就是"},{"start":3708.38,"end":3710.38,"text":"因為像這樣子掛一漏萬"},{"start":3710.38,"end":3712.38,"text":"的話"},{"start":3712.38,"end":3714.38,"text":"因為實際上"},{"start":3714.32,"end":3716.32,"text":"很多的動物用藥農藥食品添加物"},{"start":3716.32,"end":3718.32,"text":"重金屬"},{"start":3718.32,"end":3720.32,"text":"甚至是未來都會"},{"start":3720.32,"end":3722.32,"text":"再出現一些新興的汙染物"},{"start":3722.32,"end":3724.32,"text":"那如果說"},{"start":3724.32,"end":3726.32,"text":"我們今天特別為了"},{"start":3726.32,"end":3728.32,"text":"這個以行受體數寫進去"},{"start":3728.32,"end":3730.32,"text":"那是不是代表"},{"start":3730.32,"end":3732.32,"text":"在未來我們在"},{"start":3732.32,"end":3734.32,"text":"法律的解讀上會造成"},{"start":3734.32,"end":3736.32,"text":"那些沒有寫到的"},{"start":3736.32,"end":3738.32,"text":"那是不是有解釋空間"},{"start":3738.32,"end":3740.32,"text":"好像代表它"},{"start":3740.32,"end":3742.32,"text":"就可以 會有一個"},{"start":3742.32,"end":3744.32,"text":"爭議的空間"},{"start":3744.32,"end":3746.32,"text":"所以第一個部分我是就"},{"start":3746.32,"end":3748.32,"text":"這個體力部分來講"},{"start":3748.32,"end":3750.32,"text":"那第二個部分當然"},{"start":3750.32,"end":3752.32,"text":"安全是不能夠"},{"start":3752.32,"end":3754.32,"text":"打折扣的"},{"start":3754.32,"end":3756.32,"text":"學生的食安標準不能降低"},{"start":3756.32,"end":3758.32,"text":"所以第一個部分"},{"start":3758.32,"end":3760.32,"text":"我們看到現行的這個"},{"start":3760.32,"end":3762.32,"text":"學校午餐採購契約"},{"start":3762.32,"end":3764.32,"text":"它都已經"},{"start":3764.32,"end":3766.32,"text":"全面的要求"},{"start":3766.32,"end":3768.32,"text":"肉類 蛋類"},{"start":3768.32,"end":3770.32,"text":"都要用"},{"start":3770.32,"end":3772.32,"text":"國產還有可溯源的食材"},{"start":3772.32,"end":3774.32,"text":"那甚至包括"},{"start":3774.32,"end":3776.32,"text":"加工的 再製的"},{"start":3776.32,"end":3778.32,"text":"這些肉品原料"},{"start":3778.32,"end":3780.32,"text":"也都全面要求要來自國產"},{"start":3780.32,"end":3782.32,"text":"所以這個部分我覺得"},{"start":3782.32,"end":3784.32,"text":"這是已經有做把關"},{"start":3784.32,"end":3786.32,"text":"第二個把關是"},{"start":3786.32,"end":3788.32,"text":"校園的這個食材登錄平台"},{"start":3788.32,"end":3790.32,"text":"那每日"},{"start":3790.32,"end":3792.32,"text":"它都有驗收要做"},{"start":3792.32,"end":3794.32,"text":"這個來源的揭露"},{"start":3794.32,"end":3796.32,"text":"還有抽驗"},{"start":3796.32,"end":3798.32,"text":"還有廠商違約的責任"},{"start":3798.32,"end":3800.32,"text":"所以這個是第二道的一個保護"},{"start":3800.32,"end":3802.32,"text":"那第三道保護"},{"start":3802.32,"end":3804.32,"text":"就是從生產端那邊來看"},{"start":3804.32,"end":3806.32,"text":"那乙型受體素"},{"start":3806.32,"end":3808.32,"text":"本來就是國內"},{"start":3808.32,"end":3810.32,"text":"禁止使用的一個動物用藥"},{"start":3810.32,"end":3812.32,"text":"那所以我覺得這個是第三道保護"},{"start":3812.32,"end":3814.32,"text":"那第四道保護就是"},{"start":3814.32,"end":3816.32,"text":"我們這個全國"},{"start":3816.32,"end":3818.32,"text":"校園食材登錄平台"},{"start":3818.32,"end":3820.32,"text":"還有這個所謂的"},{"start":3820.32,"end":3822.32,"text":"這個午餐"},{"start":3822.32,"end":3824.32,"text":"食材抽驗的"},{"start":3824.32,"end":3826.32,"text":"這個803件"},{"start":3826.32,"end":3828.32,"text":"合格率也都是百分之百"},{"start":3828.32,"end":3830.32,"text":"那邊境的管理"},{"start":3830.32,"end":3832.32,"text":"到目前也都是沒有查到"},{"start":3832.32,"end":3834.32,"text":"所以我覺得"},{"start":3834.32,"end":3836.32,"text":"就是從體力來講"},{"start":3836.32,"end":3838.32,"text":"我們可能不需要這樣子"},{"start":3838.32,"end":3840.32,"text":"去寫掛一漏萬之外"},{"start":3840.32,"end":3842.32,"text":"也擔心"},{"start":3842.32,"end":3844.32,"text":"沒有寫到的會有一個爭議空間"},{"start":3844.32,"end":3846.32,"text":"那食安不能打折的狀況下"},{"start":3846.32,"end":3848.32,"text":"目前我們這些年來"},{"start":3848.32,"end":3850.32,"text":"其實一定是"},{"start":3850.32,"end":3852.32,"text":"有一個很大的"},{"start":3852.32,"end":3854.32,"text":"有一個很大的差距"},{"start":3854.32,"end":3856.32,"text":"我們這些年來其實"},{"start":3856.32,"end":3858.32,"text":"一道一道的安全防護"},{"start":3858.32,"end":3860.32,"text":"一層一層加上去"},{"start":3860.32,"end":3862.32,"text":"我是覺得說"},{"start":3862.32,"end":3864.32,"text":"是不是可以"},{"start":3864.32,"end":3866.32,"text":"就是維持現行的條文"},{"start":3866.32,"end":3868.32,"text":"那這個是我"},{"start":3868.32,"end":3870.32,"text":"個人的意見"},{"start":3870.32,"end":3872.32,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":3872.32,"end":3874.32,"text":"那尊重每個委員的意見"},{"start":3874.32,"end":3876.32,"text":"但我們覺得"},{"start":3876.35,"end":3878.35,"text":"食安"},{"start":3878.35,"end":3880.35,"text":"最近有許多打折的地方"},{"start":3880.35,"end":3882.35,"text":"所以我們才會希望能夠加碼加碼"},{"start":3882.35,"end":3884.35,"text":"再加碼為了都是守護孩子的健康"},{"start":3884.35,"end":3886.35,"text":"當然各個委員"},{"start":3886.35,"end":3888.35,"text":"有各自不同的見解"},{"start":3888.35,"end":3890.35,"text":"我們就不幫委員貼標籤"},{"start":3890.35,"end":3892.35,"text":"那每個人有自己的想法"},{"start":3892.35,"end":3894.35,"text":"請問一下教育部"},{"start":3894.35,"end":3896.35,"text":"對於第23條可不可以直接回應"},{"start":3896.35,"end":3898.35,"text":"從美學年變成美學期"},{"start":3898.35,"end":3900.35,"text":"這個直接回應好不好"},{"start":3900.35,"end":3902.35,"text":"你們有去跟地方政府溝通或是怎麼樣嗎"},{"start":3904.5,"end":3906.5,"text":"第23條"},{"start":3908.75,"end":3910.75,"text":"以行受理書是23-3"},{"start":3913.66,"end":3915.66,"text":"我現在問的是23"},{"start":3915.66,"end":3917.66,"text":"我剛宣告處理23"},{"start":3917.66,"end":3919.66,"text":"那吳立華委員回答23-3沒有關係"},{"start":3919.66,"end":3921.66,"text":"那綜合討論我們都"},{"start":3933.91,"end":3937.91,"text":"因為醫師陸這邊提供的資料是23先討論"},{"start":3937.91,"end":3939.91,"text":"那可能這邊他們有錯誤置入"},{"start":3942.08,"end":3944.08,"text":"那以行受理書之外"},{"start":3944.08,"end":3946.08,"text":"我先問一下好不好"},{"start":3946.08,"end":3948.08,"text":"對於我們上次有討論到那個"},{"start":3948.08,"end":3950.08,"text":"學校營養午餐抽查的頻率增加這部分"},{"start":3950.08,"end":3952.08,"text":"你們有沒有新的進展"},{"start":3952.08,"end":3954.08,"text":"或者是詢問地方政府"},{"start":3957.91,"end":3959.91,"text":"還沒啦 還要再問喔"},{"start":3959.65,"end":3961.65,"text":"那一條就保留囉"},{"start":3967.58,"end":3969.58,"text":"那你可能要"},{"start":3971.16,"end":3973.16,"text":"對不起 我剛剛有宣告不予修正"},{"start":3973.16,"end":3975.16,"text":"抱歉抱歉"},{"start":3975.73,"end":3977.73,"text":"23"},{"start":3979.39,"end":3981.39,"text":"23的話教育部的態度"},{"start":3981.39,"end":3983.39,"text":"一樣嗎"},{"start":3983.31,"end":3985.31,"text":"跟吳立華一樣"},{"start":3985.96,"end":3987.96,"text":"好"},{"start":3987.17,"end":3989.17,"text":"那我們是不是就先行宣告"},{"start":3993.52,"end":3995.52,"text":"我們"},{"start":3995.95,"end":3997.95,"text":"沒有啊這個就不予修正啊"},{"start":3997.95,"end":3999.95,"text":"23就不予修正了"},{"start":3999.95,"end":4001.95,"text":"這可能稍微再注意一下醫師陸這邊"},{"start":4004.59,"end":4006.59,"text":"好"},{"start":4006.59,"end":4008.59,"text":"23條啊"},{"start":4008.59,"end":4010.59,"text":"我已經問過他了"},{"start":4010.59,"end":4012.59,"text":"他說沒有共識啊"},{"start":4011.22,"end":4013.22,"text":"23沒有共識嘛"},{"start":4014.36,"end":4016.36,"text":"好那本條"},{"start":4017.28,"end":4019.28,"text":"23條就保留"},{"start":4021.7,"end":4023.7,"text":"23之3"},{"start":4023.32,"end":4025.32,"text":"也一樣啊"},{"start":4024.53,"end":4026.53,"text":"那是連動的"},{"start":4026.71,"end":4028.71,"text":"好本案協商無法取得共識"},{"start":4028.71,"end":4030.71,"text":"依立法委員職券新司法第12章"},{"start":4030.71,"end":4032.71,"text":"相關規定處理"},{"start":4032.71,"end":4034.71,"text":"以上"},{"start":4034.03,"end":4036.03,"text":"謝謝各位黨團代表及行政機關"},{"start":4036.03,"end":4038.03,"text":"感謝大家謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:32:29.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T12:32:29.970000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:32:29.970000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:32:31.417980+08:00","text":"傅總召已到，謝謝三位總召、各位黨團幹部、列席的賴委員、陳委員、各位列席\n的官員及各位工作夥伴，今天各黨黨鞭都已經到了，我們要協商「國防自主無人載具採購特別\n條例草案」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:32:31.417980+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:32:32.865960+08:00","text":"開始協商之前，要向各位黨團幹部報告一下，這幾天南部可以說是連日豪雨，導致災情慘重\n，大家都在努力的勘災、救災，加上氣象署的預報，沙德爾颱風可能在本週五會接近臺灣，為\n了方便政府部門及民意代表共同處理防災的相關事宜，在這裡建議各黨團幹部是否接受把本週\n五（28日）所開院會，提早至明天 8月 27日進行？","quality":0.031},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:32:32.865960+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:32:34.313939+08:00","text":"這一點要請各位黨團幹部來研究一下，如果\n可以的話，我們就明天早上開會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:32:34.313939+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:32:35.761919+08:00","text":"請問蔡總召。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-08-26T12:32:35.761919+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:32:37.209899+08:00","text":"我沒有意見。可以。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2026-08-26T12:32:37.209899+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:32:38.657879+08:00","text":"我想我們都可以配合院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:32:38.657879+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:32:40.105859+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:32:40.105859+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:32:41.553838+08:00","text":"我這裡有一份協商草稿，請議事人員發下去，我來唸一遍給大家聽一下：「立法\n院朝野黨團協商，時間：115年 8月 26日（星期三）下午 3時 30分；地點：紅樓 302會議室；\n決定事項：因應沙德爾颱風來襲，各黨團同意將原定 8 月 28 日（星期五）之院會提前至 27 日\n（星期四）開會，處理原定之無人載具相關條例制定案、公民投票法修正案及完成協商之議案\n，處理完畢即行散會。","quality":0.037},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:32:41.553838+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:32:43.001818+08:00","text":"」，如果各位黨團幹部同意的話，麻煩請簽字，好嗎？謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-08-26T12:32:43.001818+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T12:32:44.643636+08:00","text":"院長，公民投票法修正案是……","quality":0.364},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-08-26T12:32:44.643636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:32:45.643636+08:00","text":"那個還沒協商，不是嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:32:45.643636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:32:46.643636+08:00","text":"等一下會進行，沒有問題！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:32:46.643636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:32:47.643636+08:00","text":"會徵求各黨團的同意。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-08-26T12:32:47.643636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:32:48.643636+08:00","text":"院長，我覺得如果要加進來，應該要事先讓大家知道嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-08-26T12:32:48.643636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:32:49.643636+08:00","text":"為什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-08-26T12:32:49.643636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:32:50.643636+08:00","text":"因為我們主張公民\n投票有意見的委員要先讓他知道有這項協商，所以我覺得這樣其實是不大妥。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-08-26T12:32:50.643636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:32:51.643636+08:00","text":"其實這樣我們也\n很難在這裡處理，你也沒有先讓大家知道要協商這一案……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:32:51.643636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:32:52.643636+08:00","text":"蔡總召，沒有問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:32:52.643636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:32:53.643636+08:00","text":"這樣好了，因為我們明天早上 9點開會，我會宣讀黨團共識，在 9點半\n協 2\n時，拜託各位黨團幹部到議場後方主席辦公室，我們來溝通；在 10 點整，各位委員可能就要開\n始進行表決，所以我們還有一個緩衝，就是明天早上 9 點半，這點要跟各位總召特別報告一下\n，不會有任何夾帶私貨，絕對不會有的，一定要徵詢大家的同意。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:32:53.643636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:32:54.643636+08:00","text":"如果可以，我們先列進來，\n但是明天 9 點半，如果沒有辦法達成共識，到時候我們看如何處理，這一點請大家一定要放心\n，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-08-26T12:32:54.643636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:32:55.643636+08:00","text":"我的意思是，這項議案就不用寫了，因為你明天直接溝通就好了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:32:55.643636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:32:56.643636+08:00","text":"我們來修正，處理原定無人機載具相關制定案，其他議案就不寫，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-08-26T12:32:56.643636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:32:57.643636+08:00","text":"其他明天就……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-08-26T12:32:57.643636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:32:58.643636+08:00","text":"院長，我的意思是，其他的議案只要朝野都沒有意見，明天本來溝通完就可以處理嘛\n！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-08-26T12:32:58.643636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:32:59.643636+08:00","text":"我們今天就依照原定的協商議程來寫，反正明天不只這樣子，你還可以完成其他協商之議案\n，換言之，那是加 N的概念……「及完成協商」就可以，你協商完後，哪一條都可以處理啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:32:59.643636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:33:00.643636+08:00","text":"我們補充及修正一下，「因應沙德爾颱風來襲，各黨團同意將原定 8 月 28 日（星期五）之\n院會提前至 27日（星期四）開會，處理原定之無人載具相關條例制定案等議案。」好嗎？可以。","quality":0.03},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:33:00.643636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:33:01.643636+08:00","text":"對，等議案，OK，好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:33:01.643636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:33:02.643636+08:00","text":"謝謝各位黨團幹部，我們開始進入無人載具採購特別條例的朝野協商。","quality":0.069},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:33:02.643636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:33:03.643636+08:00","text":"先介紹所有到場的列","quality":0},{"speaker":"席官員","start":"2026-08-26T12:33:03.643636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:33:04.643636+08:00","text":"首先是經濟部何次長，歡迎您；國防部顧部長，歡迎；國發會產業發展處林參事，謝\n謝，歡迎；數位發展部陳主秘，歡迎您；交通部航政司楊司長，歡迎您；公共工程委員會謝處\n長，謝謝，歡迎；國科會張專門委員，謝謝，歡迎；財政部國庫署陳署長，歡迎您；主計總處\n公務預算處吳專門委員，歡迎您；法務部廖參事，歡迎。","quality":0.008},{"speaker":"席官員","start":"2026-08-26T12:32:49.976667+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T12:32:50.736667+08:00","text":"我們現在進行協商。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"席官員","start":"2026-08-26T12:34:48.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T12:35:03.150000+08:00","text":"本案於 115年 7月 27日本院第 11屆第 5會期經濟、外交及國防、財政三\n委員會第 2 次聯席會議進行審查，審查結論除鍾佳濱等 21 位委員提案另定期審查外，其餘各條\n文及委員鄭正鈐等所提修正動議均保留送院會處理，須交由黨團協商。","quality":0.427},{"speaker":"席官員","start":"2026-08-26T12:35:03.150000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:35:08.000219+08:00","text":"本案於 115 年 8 月 20 日\n由台灣民眾黨黨團召集黨團協商，協商結果並無共識。","quality":0.179},{"speaker":"席官員","start":"2026-08-26T12:35:08.000219+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:35:12.850437+08:00","text":"我們現在進行審查會條文保留部分，第一個是行政院所提的法案名稱「國防自主無人載具採\n購特別條例」，各位黨團幹部有意見嗎？","quality":0.038},{"speaker":"席官員","start":"2026-08-26T12:35:12.850437+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:35:17.700656+08:00","text":"連這個都沒辦法達成共識。","quality":0.182},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-08-26T12:35:17.700656+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:35:22.550874+08:00","text":"院長，我大概先講一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-08-26T12:35:22.550874+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:35:27.401093+08:00","text":"其實大家都知道這兩部是不一樣的東西，一個在談特別預算，簡單講就是臺灣國防自\n主建軍，包括無人機、無人艇的購買；另外，國民黨黨團、民眾黨黨團的版本是在談產業的發\n展，所以這兩個案子要併在一起難度實在非常高。","quality":0.022},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-08-26T12:35:27.401093+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:35:32.251311+08:00","text":"我的建議就是可能很多都要先保留處理，不\n然我們在說的完全是不一樣的事情。","quality":0.121},{"speaker":"蔡委員其昌","start":"2026-08-26T12:35:32.251311+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:35:37.101530+08:00","text":"民進黨覺得國防建軍很重要，用特別預算穩定地採買這\n2,100 億的偵防、攻擊跟無人艇是重要的，民進黨也覺得建構臺灣無人機產業的自主性是重要的\n，但是我們現在是把兩件事當一件事在處理，所以我覺得很難對得上。協 3","quality":0.011},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:35:37.101530+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:35:41.951749+08:00","text":"既然蔡總召已經先發言，台灣民眾黨黨團、國民黨黨團是不是也要表達一下意見，好不好？","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:35:41.951749+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:35:46.801967+08:00","text":"王委員，請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-08-26T12:35:46.801967+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:35:51.652186+08:00","text":"雖然剛剛蔡總召有講到這個事情，不過台灣民眾黨黨團的法案基本上就是兼顧發展跟\n國防自主。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-08-26T12:35:51.652186+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:35:56.502404+08:00","text":"我們要講的是，我們的法案名稱叫做「無人機」，經過這幾番的討論，我們願意改\n成「無人載具」，看看大家對於我們更改的名字是不是可以接受。以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:35:56.502404+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:36:01.352623+08:00","text":"國民黨黨團是不是要表達一下意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:36:01.352623+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:36:06.202842+08:00","text":"台灣民眾黨黨團的意思是可以接受這個名稱。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:36:06.202842+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:36:11.053060+08:00","text":"許副書記長，請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-08-26T12:36:11.053060+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:36:15.903279+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-08-26T12:36:15.903279+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:36:20.753497+08:00","text":"其實中國國民黨的立場非常明確，就是我們全力支持國防自主，但是我們\n認為產業發展也相對重要，所以我們建議名稱應該是「強化國防自主暨無人載具產業發展條例\n」，而不是用特別條例。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:36:20.753497+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:36:25.603716+08:00","text":"謝謝宇甄副書記長的發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:36:25.603716+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:36:30.453934+08:00","text":"賴士葆委員請發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:36:30.453934+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:36:35.304153+08:00","text":"鍾佳濱委員是不是要發言，我看你一直在看我？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:36:35.304153+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:36:40.154372+08:00","text":"好，你準備發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-08-26T12:36:40.154372+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:36:45.004590+08:00","text":"謝謝韓院長及各位先進。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-08-26T12:36:45.004590+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:36:49.854809+08:00","text":"剛才蔡總召提到的是一個根本的問題，他表示因為今天民進\n黨黨團的重點是放在國防部的採購案這個地方，而國眾兩黨團的重點是放在產業發展，剛才你\n提到這個非常重要，但不要忘了我們的院會最大，院會交辦下來是經濟委員會主導，而經濟委\n員會主導的意思，就是要主導怎麼樣讓無人載具產業在臺灣落地生根，甚至於升級，打造所謂\n的第二座護國神山。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-08-26T12:36:49.854809+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:36:54.705027+08:00","text":"要打造第二座護國神山，老實講，我們現在整個技術水平的提升就非常重要了，所以小弟我\n提的案子是說這裡面如果要特別預算，那就是跟國外買，現在國防部列的都是跟國內買，國內\n買 21 萬架無人機，很多專家都說真正的高階……高階跟低階區別在哪裡？","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-08-26T12:36:54.705027+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:36:59.555246+08:00","text":"高階是自己飛，你設\n幾個參數它就自己飛了，你說要飛到蘭嶼，它自己飛去蘭嶼；所謂的低階是什麼意思？","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-08-26T12:36:59.555246+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:37:04.405464+08:00","text":"你要\ncontrol，就跟玩電動玩具一樣，要自己來遙控，那是低階。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-08-26T12:37:04.405464+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:37:09.255683+08:00","text":"21 萬架裡面，2,000 架是高階，其他\n都是低階，所以老實講，對臺灣的無人機產業的扶持非常重要，我們大家都覺得非常重要，因\n此增加跟國外買，但是有一個前提，即有條件式的特別預算去買，買的話，要承諾技術移轉，\n要怎麼承諾技術移轉呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-08-26T12:37:09.255683+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:37:14.105902+08:00","text":"過去的 Offset 機制就非常重要，聯合工業或是工業聯合都可以，Offset\n在過去都沒有做好，那我們今天是不是可以趁這個機會，如果要，就用這個機會把它技術升級\n，對於我們其他的產業發展，都有一些鼓勵、補貼，希望大家能夠投資無人載具產業。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-08-26T12:37:14.105902+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:37:18.956120+08:00","text":"最後我要強調一點，今天如果是兩大黨團即民眾黨跟國民黨堅持一定只有一般預算，不要有\n特別預算，那就是另外一件事情，那就等於沒有這個。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-08-26T12:37:18.956120+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:37:23.806339+08:00","text":"我想我簡單做一個 briefing，做一個啟動\n。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:37:23.806339+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:37:28.656557+08:00","text":"謝謝賴士葆委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:37:28.656557+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:37:33.506776+08:00","text":"鍾佳濱委員、國防召委陳冠廷委員發言完畢後，劉書彬委員也來了，待黨團幹部發言完畢後\n，列席委員對這個案子關心可以發言，如果有人要發言的話，我們等一下準備發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:37:33.506776+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:37:38.356995+08:00","text":"請鍾委員。協 4","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T12:37:38.356995+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:37:43.207213+08:00","text":"謝謝院長特別指名。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T12:37:43.207213+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:37:48.057432+08:00","text":"目前這 13 個案當中，基本上就分成三類，第一類是純採購，就\n是行政院版的提案，還有賴士葆委員的提案，以及民進黨委員王定宇以外的提案，通通都是純\n採購。","quality":0.032},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T12:37:48.057432+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:37:52.907650+08:00","text":"另外第二種是 C 類的，就是純發展，為民眾黨黨團的提案，以及賴士葆委員的另外一個\n提案，這是純發展的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T12:37:52.907650+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:37:57.757869+08:00","text":"如果是兩者併而合一，就是國民黨的提案，有採購，也有發展；或者是\n王定宇委員的提案，有採購、有創建、有發展。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T12:37:57.757869+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:38:02.608087+08:00","text":"我們建議，因為剛剛蔡總召也提到了，今天我們是不是先有一個預定，到底我們是要決定以\n採購為主，還是要以發展為主？","quality":0.041},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T12:38:02.608087+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:38:07.458306+08:00","text":"或者是要有採購的金額在內，又要有產業所需要的建置？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T12:38:07.458306+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:38:12.308525+08:00","text":"我就\n簡單做個分類供主席參酌，也供各位黨團幹部判斷。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T12:38:12.308525+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:38:17.158743+08:00","text":"我們很難一次討論 13 個版本，有這三種類\n型，因為這三種類型基本上彼此之間有一點互斥性。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T12:38:17.158743+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:38:22.008962+08:00","text":"以上建議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:38:22.008962+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:38:26.859180+08:00","text":"謝謝鍾佳濱委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:38:26.859180+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:38:31.709399+08:00","text":"我先跟黨團幹部報告一下，明天開院會的協商結論現已完成黨團幹部簽名，我們授權議事處\n先行發文，所以麻煩各黨團幹部要通知所有你們所屬的委員，明天早上 9 點開會，9 點半黨團幹\n部集合開會前會，10點整可能要進入表決。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:38:31.709399+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:38:36.559617+08:00","text":"陳冠廷委員請發言，劉書彬委員請準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-26T12:38:36.559617+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:38:41.409836+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-26T12:38:41.409836+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:38:46.260055+08:00","text":"其實我剛才有聽到賴士葆委員的一點善意，因為有特別提到特別預算，過\n去國民黨黨團沒有談到這裡。","quality":0.119},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-26T12:38:46.260055+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:38:51.110273+08:00","text":"我要提出來的就是，如果是特別預算，您剛剛說主要是對外採購\n。","quality":0.038},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-26T12:38:51.110273+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:38:55.960492+08:00","text":"那麼如果是臺灣與美方合資生產的，是不是也能包含進去？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-26T12:38:55.960492+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:39:00.810710+08:00","text":"這是第一點，如果能這樣的話，\n我們覺得這件事情就有曙光。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-26T12:39:00.810710+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:39:05.660929+08:00","text":"因為我看到許多臺灣的本土產業現在基本上就是用美方的大腦指\n控系統，等於是大腦的控制系統、指揮系統，只是在臺灣生產，有點這樣的概念。","quality":0.034},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-26T12:39:05.660929+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:39:10.511148+08:00","text":"所以這方面\n是不是可以考量進去？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-26T12:39:10.511148+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:39:15.361366+08:00","text":"這是第一點，當然也很感謝院長給我們機會可以跟各黨團討論。","quality":0.038},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-26T12:39:15.361366+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:39:20.211585+08:00","text":"第二點，剛才鍾委員提到發展跟採購。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-26T12:39:20.211585+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:39:25.061803+08:00","text":"我們之所以會有 2,100 億的特別預算，是先專注在這兩\n、三年，甚至是緊迫的、可能會遇到的、衝突危機的可能性。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-26T12:39:25.061803+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:39:29.912022+08:00","text":"所以發展是發展，採購是採購，\n要分開來說。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-26T12:39:29.912022+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:39:34.762240+08:00","text":"特別是仔細去看這 2,100 億的三大樣貌可知，都是濱海、濱海、濱海，不管是作戰\n還是監偵，由此可知威脅離我們比較近一點，2,100 億裡面之所以要有快速取得武力的原因在這\n裡。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-26T12:39:34.762240+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:39:39.612459+08:00","text":"我們知道民眾黨也有提到發展，但就快速取得武力這部分來說，我希望大家能考量進去。","quality":0.056},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-26T12:39:39.612459+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:39:44.462678+08:00","text":"我\n就先簡單發言到此，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:39:44.462678+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:39:49.312896+08:00","text":"劉書彬委員請發言，黃健豪委員請準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-08-26T12:39:49.312896+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:39:54.163115+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-08-26T12:39:54.163115+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:39:59.013333+08:00","text":"民眾黨版本特別重視的除了發展之外，未來要提出的修正動議當中，其實\n也會把採購放進去。","quality":0.026},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-08-26T12:39:59.013333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:40:03.863552+08:00","text":"第二個，我們還是堅持用一般的年度預算，很重要的原因在於：美國智庫已經跟我們提醒，\n因為無人機、無人載具發展速度的迭代很快。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-08-26T12:40:03.863552+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:40:08.713770+08:00","text":"如果在六年時間裡把錢花下去的話，其實並沒有\n讓產業有足夠的發展時間，尤其發展必須透過國家無人載具戰略發展委員會做指引，並由此引\n導整個無人機產業，包括整個國防自主要怎麼進行。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-08-26T12:40:08.713770+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:40:13.563989+08:00","text":"因此，有發展引導後，後續用年度預算進\n行，包括我們一定會加進去的發展跟採購，這樣就沒有問題了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-08-26T12:40:13.563989+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:40:18.414208+08:00","text":"所以我們堅持要有一整套的做\n協 5\n法，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:40:18.414208+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:40:23.264426+08:00","text":"請臺中市選出的立委黃健豪委員，這和你們產業有關，請你表達意見。","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-08-26T12:40:23.264426+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:40:28.114645+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-08-26T12:40:28.114645+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:40:32.964863+08:00","text":"各位同仁先進，誠如莊瑞雄委員之言，今天版本確實有三種，這點大家都\n有共識。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-08-26T12:40:32.964863+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:40:37.815082+08:00","text":"在這三種裡面，國民黨版本包含發展跟採購。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-08-26T12:40:37.815082+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:40:42.665301+08:00","text":"所以我要強調的是，沒錯，國民黨版本\n是有採購，並按照第十五條規定編了 2,400 億，只是分年編列。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-08-26T12:40:42.665301+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:40:47.515519+08:00","text":"為什麼要分年、長期編列這\n2,400 億？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-08-26T12:40:47.515519+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:40:52.365738+08:00","text":"過去大家在討論時說，我們若要發展無人機，就需要有一個長期穩定的政策來支撐，\n所以才會有這樣的編排方式。","quality":0.043},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-08-26T12:40:52.365738+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:40:57.215956+08:00","text":"再來是本土產業。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-08-26T12:40:57.215956+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:41:02.066175+08:00","text":"我們不斷強調，除了對外採購之外，更重要是國內的產業怎麼樣才能跟上\n這一波，並扶植國內產業？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-08-26T12:41:02.066175+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:41:06.916393+08:00","text":"為此，我們特別在條例裡要求，在發展國內產業部分，本土化的比\n例各要多少。","quality":0.129},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-08-26T12:41:06.916393+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:41:11.766612+08:00","text":"當然，後續在細則部分可以討論本土化是要純臺製才叫本土化，還是臺灣廠商跟\n國外廠商合資也算本土化？","quality":0.023},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-08-26T12:41:11.766612+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:41:16.616831+08:00","text":"相關細節我覺得後續大家可以討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-08-26T12:41:16.616831+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:41:21.467049+08:00","text":"我覺得國民黨版本是比較完整、一致性去溝通，所以我們並沒有反對採購，我們也支持採購\n；也沒有反對不能買那三型無人機，是包含，但並不限於。","quality":0.034},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-08-26T12:41:21.467049+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:41:26.317268+08:00","text":"如果未來戰爭或未來產業有其他需\n求，也可以買別的東西，只是先把錢匡列出來而已。","quality":0.114},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-08-26T12:41:26.317268+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:41:31.167486+08:00","text":"這兩件事我認為並不衝突，同時也能兼顧\n產業發展，畢竟產業發展對於所有產業來講，是最重要的事情。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-08-26T12:41:31.167486+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:41:36.017705+08:00","text":"不管今天要不要用特別條例，用一般預算還是用特別預算，最重要是我們的產業要怎麼加入\n這個行業，我覺得這是最重要的事情。","quality":0.038},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-08-26T12:41:36.017705+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:41:40.867923+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:41:40.867923+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:41:45.718142+08:00","text":"謝謝黃健豪委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:41:45.718142+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:41:50.568361+08:00","text":"洪毓祥委員，請問你等一下要不要發言？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:41:50.568361+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:41:55.418579+08:00","text":"因為莊瑞雄委員發言完，國防部要表達意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:41:55.418579+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:42:00.268798+08:00","text":"你要\n不要發言？好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:42:00.268798+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:42:05.119016+08:00","text":"現在請莊瑞雄委員發言，發言完請洪毓祥委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-08-26T12:42:05.119016+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:42:09.969235+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-08-26T12:42:09.969235+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:42:14.819454+08:00","text":"今天聽完前面幾位各黨團代表發言後，其實我滿敬佩的，因為大家今天的\n態度就非常開放，所以我一直在讀韓院長的心思，看看今天最後有沒有辦法達成。","quality":0.127},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-08-26T12:42:14.819454+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:42:19.669672+08:00","text":"第一個，我\n剛剛聽了賴士葆委員的發言，我為什麼說表達敬佩？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-08-26T12:42:19.669672+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:42:24.519891+08:00","text":"其實他有兩個版本，一個版本在整個國防\n自主的部分、國防採購的部分有 43 個人簽名，43 位國民黨委員簽名，這是特別條例喔，扣掉院\n長、副院長慣例上是不連署，像我們民進黨黨團三長也不連署，國民黨支持特別條例者達到\n90%；黃健豪委員剛剛也提到了，黃委員我也很敬佩，你說特別條例也很好，然後年度預算編列\n的產業發展都支持，也很好，所以我就覺得非常好，氣氛到現在都非常好。","quality":0.039},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-08-26T12:42:24.519891+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:42:29.370109+08:00","text":"剛剛我聽到黃委員提到的，就是把台灣民眾黨版本無人機的部分變成無人載具，這個也非常\n好，因為改為無人載具，變成空中的也有，地面的也有，然後整個水下的也都有，那已經達成\n共識了。","quality":0.065},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-08-26T12:42:29.370109+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:42:34.220328+08:00","text":"我們是不是先不要保留，因為我們一般在講保留就是馬上要處理了嘛，這個部分我們\n暫時先……等到討論到後面再回來，搞不好會產生一個共識也不一定。","quality":0.145},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-08-26T12:42:34.220328+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:42:39.070546+08:00","text":"民主進步黨在這個地方\n要特別強調，每一個版本提出來馬上就冠上國防自主，大家都在講國防自主，其他的條文什麼\n主管機關都放在經濟部了，不在這個條文裡面，我就先不講了。","quality":0.082},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-08-26T12:42:39.070546+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:42:43.920765+08:00","text":"我的意思就是說，既然大家的\n協 6\n條文名稱都是在講國防自主、無人載具，你要國防自主，只要不把國防部所要採購的部分丟包\n，對於國民黨、台灣民眾黨所提出來所有無人機產業的部分，民主進步黨全部表達支持，大家\n都很開放嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-08-26T12:42:43.920765+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:42:48.770984+08:00","text":"就是說，既然條例是……我們不要欺騙社會，我們要跟社會說現在三黨提出來的\n都叫做國防自主，然後到最後把國防部要買的、要馬上快速形成不對稱戰力的，我們卻把它丟\n包，這樣就不好了。","quality":0.026},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-08-26T12:42:48.770984+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:42:53.621202+08:00","text":"賴委員所提到的是說，採購的部分是高階，高、中、低這個都可以討論，但至少我們也看到\n國民黨有將近九成的人認為特別條例是可以考慮的，民進黨的表達也非常善意，產業支持的部\n分都要，國家來支持，到最後變成另外一座護國神山。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-08-26T12:42:53.621202+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:42:58.471421+08:00","text":"三黨對於無人機、無人載具的部分剛開\n始大家會有紛爭，看法會有所不同，可是經過大家攻防完以後，很好啊，產業也要發展，但是\n要發展產業的時候，不要忘記針對整個條例，每一個版本我相信到最後還會再提出修正動議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-08-26T12:42:58.471421+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:43:03.321639+08:00","text":"既然都是要國防自主的話，國防部要的這些東西就不要讓他們那麼辛苦啦，這個國家是大家一\n起的嘛，大家說要國防自主，但我們到最後卻把它給丟包的話，這個就沒道理了。以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:43:03.321639+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:43:08.171858+08:00","text":"謝謝莊瑞雄委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:43:08.171858+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:43:13.022077+08:00","text":"請洪毓祥委員，洪委員發言完畢，再請范雲委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-08-26T12:43:13.022077+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:43:17.872295+08:00","text":"因為我擔任經濟委員會的召委，在初審的時候，我們也歷經了 8小時的討論，基本上\n這 14 個版本，除了鍾委員的提案還留在委員會，但他也有參與討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-08-26T12:43:17.872295+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:43:22.722514+08:00","text":"我覺得三個黨派的基本差\n異都很清楚了，本黨團還是堅持所謂的年度預算，不編入特別預算。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-08-26T12:43:22.722514+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:43:27.572732+08:00","text":"第二個，我們也不會把國防部要採購的東西給丟包，我想在後續的一些討論，我們也認為這\n絕對不會是丟包的一個項目。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-08-26T12:43:27.572732+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:43:32.422951+08:00","text":"第三個，國防部在講的時候，整個無人載具的產業，我們跟院長到美國去，我們也就\n是要國防自主嘛，一定要國內的供應鏈產業升級、自主化生產，因此，我認為經濟部來主導這\n樣的產業升級發展，國防部提出來的採購基本上就是一個需求規格，所以這個邏輯上是很清楚\n的，這樣我們才能做到所謂信任的供應鏈，也才有辦法去做到我們整個產業自主化的發展，甚\n至我們也納入非軍規的部分，其他各部會對於非軍規無人載具的使用，也可以納入所謂的共同\n供應採購契約，「得」啦，沒有說一定，但是我覺得讓他們產生一個高效能、國產自主化的無\n人載具，大概是本黨團的主要目的。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:43:32.422951+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:43:37.273169+08:00","text":"謝謝洪召集委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:43:37.273169+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:43:42.123388+08:00","text":"范雲委員，請簡短，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-26T12:43:42.123388+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:43:46.973607+08:00","text":"我們今天為什麼會有這個特別條例？","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-26T12:43:46.973607+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:43:51.823825+08:00","text":"完全是因為之前 1.25 兆的國防特別預算，關於無\n人機、無人艇的部分完全被刪除。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-26T12:43:51.823825+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:43:56.674044+08:00","text":"為什麼要特別條例？","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-26T12:43:56.674044+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:44:01.524262+08:00","text":"因為這件事情是國防的建置，非常的急\n，我們民主的盟友都在看我們到底有沒有要即刻補上這一塊，所以我現在很擔心時程的問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-08-26T12:44:01.524262+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:44:06.374481+08:00","text":"如果是特別條例，原本行政院版的條文是通過之後即刻就可以去採購，我們的做法是採購帶動\n產業，而你們的則是以產業為主，這個有點狸貓換太子，就是問 A 然後給 B，你現在說要來包\n這個採購，可是你們條例的最後一條規定是條例通過後六個月施行，所以我想請問部長，如果\n協 7\n通過這個規定的話，是不是非常急的那三款，就算你寫進去之後也是來不及布建？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:44:06.374481+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:44:11.224699+08:00","text":"范委員，謝謝，等一下國防部長會說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:44:11.224699+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:44:16.074918+08:00","text":"不過你跟莊委員的論述好像差異很大，光你跟莊委\n員是同個黨團就完全南轅北轍！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:44:16.074918+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:44:20.925137+08:00","text":"麻煩請國防部顧部長表達一下意見，好嗎？謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:44:20.925137+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:44:25.775355+08:00","text":"經濟部請準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-08-26T12:44:25.775355+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:44:30.625574+08:00","text":"行政院的版本我們已經提出來，大家也都已經看過了，現在因為有十幾個版本，國防\n部就先以國民黨版的部分來說，我想我們最希望大家能夠給予國防部支持的就是第二條、第十\n五條跟第十六條，就是這三條。","quality":0.035},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-08-26T12:44:30.625574+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:44:35.475792+08:00","text":"第二條規定主管機關是經濟部，我們是不是能夠建議改為本條例主管機關為經濟部，但是涉\n及國防軍用採購事項是國防部？","quality":0.078},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-08-26T12:44:35.475792+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:44:40.326011+08:00","text":"也就是說，國民黨版條文的第二條是「本條例之主管機關為經\n濟部」嘛，因為國民黨版也有涉及到採購的部分，所以我們是不是能夠建議將文字改為「本條\n例之主管機關為經濟部，涉及國防軍用採購事項為國防部」，這是第二條的部分，請各位能夠\n斟酌。","quality":0.099},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-08-26T12:44:40.326011+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:44:45.176230+08:00","text":"再來最重要的就是第十五條跟第十六條，我在這邊跟各位說明一下，因為國民黨黨版對於無\n人載具的定義相當寬，國民黨版第三條有關無人載具的定義，簡單講就是包括了天上飛的、水\n面跑的、水下潛的，還有地面上所有的。","quality":0.033},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-08-26T12:44:45.176230+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:44:50.026448+08:00","text":"就這些相關的部分我跟各位做個報告，如果我們將所\n有的無人載具都包含進去的話，不包含我們現在提出的濱海監偵型、濱海攻擊型跟小型自殺無\n人艇的部分，我們在明年，也就是行政院已經通過的明年度的年度預算，在無人載具這個部分\n就已經編列 311 億了。","quality":0.019},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-08-26T12:44:50.026448+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:44:54.876667+08:00","text":"比如說我們已經跟美國買了 MQ-9B 高高空無人機、銳鳶二型無人機、垂\n直起降無人機等等，這些所有相關的無人機、無人載具，在我們明年度（116 年度）預算就已經\n占了 311億。","quality":0.09},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-08-26T12:44:54.876667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:44:59.726885+08:00","text":"我要說這一點是因為在上次委員會討論的時候，國民黨有再提出一個修正動議，將\n第三條的無人載具定義又放得更寬了，不管是操作或進行不須人員乘載於機具本體，可以遙控\n、自主控制或其他方式運作於空中、水面、水下、地面或其他環境的無人載具，用途包括監偵\n、目獲、攻擊、後勤運輸、通訊中繼、電子作戰、誘餌、掃雷、布雷及其他任務等等，這些都\n算是無人載具。","quality":0.02},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-08-26T12:44:59.726885+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:45:04.577104+08:00","text":"我要說明的是第十五條，抱歉，我花一點時間說明，國民黨版第十五條有提到「為建立長期\n、穩定之無人載具產業發展及國防建設機制，持續推動無人載具產業發展、強化國防自主能量\n、建構安全可信任之供應鏈體系及提升國際競爭力」接著下面這個就是重點了，「中央政府應\n循年度預算程序，每年編列新臺幣四百億元，連續編列六年，總額為新臺幣為二千四百億元。","quality":0.034},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-08-26T12:45:04.577104+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:45:09.427322+08:00","text":"」我只是要跟各位做一個報告，如果按照國民黨版的無人載具這樣的定義的話，每年編列 400\n億元事實上是不足的，這點要請各位能夠理解。","quality":0.073},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-08-26T12:45:09.427322+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:45:14.277541+08:00","text":"國民黨版第十六條說這 400 億元預算的支用是所有軍用無人載具的採購、產製、維修、工程\n及訓練，也包括了軍民共用測試場域的設置及維運費用，也包括了產業聚落發展以及中小企業\n的特別扶助。","quality":0.051},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-08-26T12:45:14.277541+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:45:19.127760+08:00","text":"也就是說這 400 億元包括了我們軍用要買的所有無人載具，也包括了軍民共用的\n測試場域，也包括了經濟部要去做產業聚落發展跟中小企業的特別扶助，全部就是 400億元。","quality":0.235},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-08-26T12:45:19.127760+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:45:23.977978+08:00","text":"我只是在這邊懇切地跟各位委員報告，光軍用的無人載具，按照國民黨版的第三條的定義的\n協 8\n話，一年 400 億的這個部分是不夠的，而我們提出的 2,100 億有限定就是在這三類，這三類一個\n叫濱海監偵型，一個叫做濱海攻擊型，一個叫做小型自殺無人艇。","quality":0.11},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-08-26T12:45:23.977978+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:45:28.828197+08:00","text":"其實大家都很清楚，現在所\n有的無人載具已經日新月異，每天都在發展，地面也有無人載具在進行，水下不管偵雷、獵雷\n、掃雷都有無人載具，天上飛的無人飛機也有一類、二類、三類、四類、五類，有這麼多，更\n不要講水面的，水面的現在無人艇的運用已經非常、非常多了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-08-26T12:45:28.828197+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:45:33.678415+08:00","text":"所以我只是在說明，國防部認\n為如果要以國民黨的版本文字進行修正的話，請特別考量第二條、第十五條、第十六條。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:45:33.678415+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:45:38.528634+08:00","text":"好，謝謝顧部長的說明。","quality":0.222},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:45:38.528634+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:45:43.378852+08:00","text":"麻煩請經濟部何次長說明，然後賴士葆委員請準備。","quality":0.095},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-08-26T12:45:43.378852+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:45:48.229071+08:00","text":"好，謝謝院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-08-26T12:45:48.229071+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:45:53.079290+08:00","text":"經濟部的立場是認為，產業發展的支持措施，其實目前行政院各部會\n已經有完整的法源跟機制，比方說像經濟部，我們有產業創新條例可以提供產業輔導、研發補\n助、租稅減免、人才培訓還有資金協助；交通部也有民用航空法；數位部還有 NCC 也都有相關\n的法規可以支持我們的產業發展。","quality":0.017},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-08-26T12:45:53.079290+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:45:57.929508+08:00","text":"另外，行政院也在 114年通過無人載具產業發展統籌型計畫，\n預計在未來 6 年的時間，我們要編列 442 億元來協助產業的發展，所以經濟部的立場是建議不\n需要特別再立專法協助產業，因為目前已經有既有的機制在輔導產業發展。","quality":0},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-08-26T12:45:57.929508+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:46:02.779727+08:00","text":"第二個部分，其實產業現在最迫切需要的就是要有穩定的訂單，所以我們建議就聚焦在採購\n軍用的無人載具，有這樣長期、穩定、可預期的訂單的話，也可以讓產業有持續投入研發還有\n擴充產能的意願。","quality":0.012},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-08-26T12:46:02.779727+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:46:07.629945+08:00","text":"另外，我們也建議用特別預算編列，因為特別預算有長年期、穩定、可預期\n的採購經費，可以讓國內的業者願意投入研發跟量產。","quality":0},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-08-26T12:46:07.629945+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:46:12.480164+08:00","text":"如果用年度預算的方式執行的話，我們\n擔心會有預算排擠、預算審查刪減或時程延遲的問題，反而會讓國內業者產生不確定性預算支\n持的因素，進而會影響國內業者投入的意願，所以我們建議各位委員是不是可以支持行政院版\n本，以特別預算方式集中資源加速推動，也兼顧我們國防戰力建置時效跟國內無人載具產業的\n發展？以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:46:12.480164+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:46:17.330383+08:00","text":"不過何次長，你這個說明跟國民黨黨團、台灣民眾黨黨團還有莊瑞雄委員提的完全不一樣，\n方向完全不一樣，南轅北轍。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:46:17.330383+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:46:22.180601+08:00","text":"請賴士葆委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-08-26T12:46:22.180601+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:46:27.030820+08:00","text":"是，謝謝院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-08-26T12:46:27.030820+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:46:31.881038+08:00","text":"剛才何次長講的我都聽不懂，因為目前並沒有幫助無人載具的專法，\n沒有！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-08-26T12:46:31.881038+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:46:36.731257+08:00","text":"你講的是適用促產條例方面的，所以是雞同鴨講。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-08-26T12:46:36.731257+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:46:41.581475+08:00","text":"現在來講，經濟部部長不來，來個次\n長，很清楚嘛，經濟部就是要把這個讓給國防部，清清楚楚，這裡面後面的邏輯在這個地方啦\n！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-08-26T12:46:41.581475+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:46:46.431694+08:00","text":"所以第一個我要強調的是，現在並沒有專法，沒有幫助無人載具的專法，只有相關的促產條\n例，這是第一個我要強調的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-08-26T12:46:46.431694+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:46:51.281913+08:00","text":"第二點我要強調的是，我要 echo 一下剛才民眾黨劉書彬委員所講到的，無人機方面的技術日\n新月異，一次買這麼多，沒多久就 out-of-date，這就很清楚啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-08-26T12:46:51.281913+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:46:56.132131+08:00","text":"所以這裡面分批買是有必要的，\n這是第二點我要強調的，所以我堅持在國內採購方面應該要用一般預算。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-08-26T12:46:56.132131+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:47:00.982350+08:00","text":"國民黨黨團也很有善\n意，你編 2,000億，我給你 2,400的 quota，比你要的還多啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-08-26T12:47:00.982350+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:47:05.832568+08:00","text":"大家為什麼要再糾結於是一般預算\n還是特別預算？","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-08-26T12:47:05.832568+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:47:10.682787+08:00","text":"第三個，以行程來講，就范雲委員剛剛所提到的時程來講，現在假如特別預算比較快的話，\n協 9\n其實也沒有比較快，特別預算條例一過，他還要編預算，要重新送來，如果是我們這裡的一般\n預算，大家談好了，你可以追加預算，下一次追加預算就進來啦！","quality":0.01},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-08-26T12:47:10.682787+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:47:15.533005+08:00","text":"這個不會比你慢的啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-08-26T12:47:15.533005+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:47:20.383224+08:00","text":"不會\n比你慢，而且也很有彈性，你要彈性也很有彈性，只有差一個東西，事實上，這個也沒有差，\n你說差一個東西，2,100 億是給國內廠商，可是你不要忘了，我們是 2,400 億，2,400 億也是給國\n內廠商啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-08-26T12:47:20.383224+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:47:25.233443+08:00","text":"所以這個不用緊張，大家糾結於一定要特別預算或是年度預算，我覺得以國民黨黨\n團的版本來講，他的 quota是 2,400億，比你們多 300億，沒有比較少啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-08-26T12:47:25.233443+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:47:30.083661+08:00","text":"最後一點我要再強調的是，剛剛顧部長說每年 400 億不夠什麼之類的，所以以現在來講的話\n，你只有那三類嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-08-26T12:47:30.083661+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:47:34.933880+08:00","text":"未來說不定又有其他的進來，讓它更有彈性，年度預算會更有彈性，而真\n的需要特別預算的，只有說我要把我的技術水平拉上來，跟世界先進國家買到他們的層級，那\n個才有需要，否則不需要。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:47:34.933880+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:47:39.784098+08:00","text":"謝謝兩位委員，等一下你們兩位委員發言完畢之後我們休息 10分鐘，大家討論一下好嗎？","quality":0.114},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:47:39.784098+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:47:44.634317+08:00","text":"鍾佳濱委員請發言，莊瑞雄委員請準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T12:47:44.634317+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:47:49.484536+08:00","text":"我向來佩服賴士葆委員的發言，但是有時候他偶爾會這樣，他會沒有注意到事實的存\n在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T12:47:49.484536+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:47:54.334754+08:00","text":"目前有一個叫做無人載具科技創新實驗條例，主管機關是經濟部，什麼時候發布的？2018\n年。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T12:47:54.334754+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:47:59.184973+08:00","text":"當年為了發展自駕車、無人車，所以經濟部那時候推動了這個無人載具的實驗條例，裡面\n的內容可以馬上上網看一下，我們的法規資料查詢都可以查得到，大家都可以查得到。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T12:47:59.184973+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:48:04.035191+08:00","text":"它裡面\n包括陸域、空域、水域，統統包含在內，所以這是第一個回應剛剛賴士葆委員的，國內目前有\n沒有針對無人載具的專法？","quality":0.06},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T12:48:04.035191+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:48:08.885410+08:00","text":"有，而且是在 2018 年，當年這個實驗條例的目的，就是希望在無人\n載具發展過程當中給予適合的場域，今天大家不再說了嗎？","quality":0.042},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T12:48:08.885410+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:48:13.735628+08:00","text":"我看民眾黨黨團的版本、國民黨黨\n團的版本也都需要測試場域，大家寫在條文裡面的測試場域，早在 2018 年就已經寫進經濟部所\n主管的無人載具科技創新實驗條例裡面了，只是時隔 8 年，因應俄烏戰爭的發展，我們這個實\n驗條例需要做一些充實，將國防部在面對新的威脅型態下，我們的產業所要發展的內容把它放\n進來，這是第一個回應的。","quality":0.007},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T12:48:13.735628+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:48:18.585847+08:00","text":"第二個，剛剛聽完顧部長的說明，我發現這 13 個版本當中，剛好有一位委員的版本就是符合\n部長所提的。","quality":0.122},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T12:48:18.585847+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:48:23.436066+08:00","text":"請看王定宇委員版本的第二條，在我們法規對照表的第 3 頁，王委員的說法是，\n本條例所稱中央主管機關為經濟部，涉及國防軍用採購事項為國防部。","quality":0.233},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T12:48:23.436066+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:48:28.286284+08:00","text":"目前這 13 個版本當中，\n只有這個版本的寫法這麼清楚、明白的寫出主管機關是經濟部，但國防、軍事的部分、採購的\n部分是國防部。","quality":0.098},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T12:48:28.286284+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:48:33.136503+08:00","text":"第三個，包括剛剛顧部長所說的，因為國民黨黨團的版本、民眾黨黨團的版本對於無人載具\n的定義，譬如說，如果以民眾黨黨團來講，他只有講無人機，他們有包括水域的跟陸域的，國\n民黨的部分寫了很多，但是族繁不及備載，而你看看王定宇委員的第二條，就在我們條文對照\n表第 4頁……","quality":0.026},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:48:33.136503+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:48:37.986721+08:00","text":"鍾委員，台灣民眾黨黨團也有，一樣，在同一頁，你看看，台灣民眾黨黨團，不是唯一，是\n唯二喔！","quality":0.028},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:48:37.986721+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:48:42.836940+08:00","text":"台灣民眾黨黨團也有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T12:48:42.836940+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:48:47.687158+08:00","text":"來，我們看一下，他這裡說的：「本條例所稱無人載具，指具備自動導航、遙控或自\n協 10\n主運作能力之無人飛行載具、無人水面載具、無人水下載具、無人地面載具或其他經中央主管\n機關公告指定之載具。","quality":0.025},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T12:48:47.687158+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:48:52.537377+08:00","text":"」這樣的內容讓經濟部有這個機會去針對產業的發展，不管是外銷的市\n場，還是我們國內、國軍所需要使用的，都可以涵蓋在裡面。","quality":0.173},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T12:48:52.537377+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:48:57.387596+08:00","text":"我相信顧部長也好、次長也好，\n應該有看到王委員的版本，尤其是他的第二項還特別仔細提到，跟什麼有區隔？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T12:48:57.387596+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:49:02.237814+08:00","text":"不包括太空發\n展法所定之發射載具及太空載具，因為目前我們國家在發展飛彈或者太空方面，的確那個就排\n除在這個法令的適用範圍。","quality":0.089},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-08-26T12:49:02.237814+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:49:07.088033+08:00","text":"所以如果依顧部長所言，建議可以參考王定宇委員的第二條跟第三條，以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:49:07.088033+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:49:11.938251+08:00","text":"謝謝鍾委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:49:11.938251+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:49:16.788470+08:00","text":"莊委員，麻煩簡短，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-08-26T12:49:16.788470+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:49:21.638689+08:00","text":"好，謝謝院長，我儘量簡短。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-08-26T12:49:21.638689+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:49:26.488907+08:00","text":"其實這 13 個版本，大家再去看一下，真的都是在講國\n防自主，也就是說戰力的形成，既然是戰力的形成的話，我本來以為要討論的是第一條，結果\n大家已經討論到第二條，那附帶要講也可以。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-08-26T12:49:26.488907+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:49:31.339126+08:00","text":"我們去看一下，各黨團請參考一下，災害防救法第三條就講得很清楚了，我們這一部法令，\n從各個黨團代表所提出的版本來看，國防自主的話，只要講國防自主，又涉及到整個產業的發\n展，那不一定要只有一個機關。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-08-26T12:49:31.339126+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:49:36.189344+08:00","text":"關於我們的災害防救法，我跟大家報告，災害防救法涉及的機\n關有幾個？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-08-26T12:49:36.189344+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:49:41.039563+08:00","text":"各種災害之預防、應變及復原重建，災害防救業務主管機關裡面有內政部；水災、\n旱災、礦災、工業管線的主管機關是經濟部；土石流、大規模崩塌災害、森林火災是農業部；\n空難、海難、陸上交通是交通部；毒性化學物質則是環境部；生物災害是衛福部；輻射又是核\n安委員會；也就是說，一部法令裡面既有產業發展，然後又有國防自主，各個黨團其實不用堅\n持，這已經有先例，我們在災防法裡面還有 7 個主管機關的，所以未必要堅持，內容既然涉及\n第一個講國防自主了嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-08-26T12:49:41.039563+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:49:45.889781+08:00","text":"其實主管機關就一併把國防部放進去，我覺得大家今天就講道理，不\n是壞事情，針對第一條我就先講到這個地方。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-08-26T12:49:45.889781+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:49:50.740000+08:00","text":"但是今天大家討論到這個地方，不要說是保留，而是暫時先討論到這個地方，等一下再回來\n，不然的話，保留就是明天要表決了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:49:50.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T12:50:15.646667+08:00","text":"賴士葆委員，你要加一句話，是不是？請。","quality":0.467},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-08-26T12:50:15.646667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:50:22.682500+08:00","text":"一句話！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-08-26T12:50:22.682500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:50:29.718333+08:00","text":"剛才鍾委員的指教，我仔細讀了，那是等於類似無人載具的沙盒實驗，跟我\n們國、眾兩黨提的促進產業租稅優惠、人才招聘等等完全不一樣，完全不一樣啦！","quality":0.065},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-08-26T12:50:29.718333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:50:36.754167+08:00","text":"……寫國防自主……","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-08-26T12:50:36.754167+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:50:43.790000+08:00","text":"完全不一樣，這是不一樣的東西，這個我只是回應剛才鍾委員剛剛所提到的。","quality":0.226},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:50:43.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T12:50:44.678889+08:00","text":"好，沒關係，我們現在休息 10分鐘，好不好？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:50:44.678889+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:51:01.229868+08:00","text":"大家休息一下，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:51:01.229868+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:51:17.780847+08:00","text":"休息（16時 15分）\n繼續開會（16時 38分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:51:17.780847+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:51:34.331825+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部，謝謝，也謝謝行政院所有列席的官員，我們剛才休息了 10 分鐘，繼續又討\n論二十多分鐘，將近半個多小時，各黨團的意見以及列席的委員也都有充分的表達，經濟部跟\n國防部也表達了立場。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:51:34.331825+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:51:50.882804+08:00","text":"協 11\n我想現在這樣子，我們就聚焦在 3 個重點：一、主管單位到底是經濟部還是國防部；二、預\n算是要用特別預算還是年度預算；三、到底要多少經費。","quality":0.088},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:51:50.882804+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:52:07.433783+08:00","text":"我想我們針對這 3 個焦點歡迎各黨團\n來表達一下。","quality":0.05},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:52:07.433783+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:52:23.984762+08:00","text":"如果各位認為還有其他意見要表達，當然也歡迎，但是我們針對這 3 個主題大家\n來討論一下。","quality":0.108},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:52:23.984762+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:52:40.535741+08:00","text":"我們等一下要宣告，好不好？","quality":0.182},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:52:40.535741+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:52:57.086720+08:00","text":"台灣民眾黨黨團要先針對這 3個主題表達意見嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:52:57.086720+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:53:13.637698+08:00","text":"召委是洪毓祥委員，王委員請，不用客氣。","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-08-26T12:53:13.637698+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:53:30.188677+08:00","text":"基本上，我們台灣民眾黨的版本其實本來寫的就是有兩個主管機關，一個是經濟部，\n一個是國防部。","quality":0.025},{"speaker":"王委員安祥","start":"2026-08-26T12:53:30.188677+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:53:46.739656+08:00","text":"另外，我們經過內部的討論及修正，把國防採購、研發補助、關鍵技術進口、\n資安審查、測試場域劃設等項目由國防部處理，這大概是我們現在新修訂的一個版本。以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-08-26T12:53:46.739656+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:54:03.290635+08:00","text":"第二點，經費我們還是堅持年度預算。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-08-26T12:54:03.290635+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:54:19.841614+08:00","text":"第三個，年度預算就不用寫金額，由行政院、\n國防部按照需求編列。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:54:19.841614+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:54:36.392593+08:00","text":"好，謝謝台灣民眾黨黨團非常清楚的表達意見，希望國防部跟經濟部兩個部會共同主管，至\n於預算就請根據需求編列，堅持要求公務預算、年度預算，對不對？","quality":0.032},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:54:36.392593+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:54:52.943571+08:00","text":"好，請民進黨黨團表達意\n見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-08-26T12:54:52.943571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:55:09.494550+08:00","text":"我想民進黨必須要再次提出來，其實條文之間的設計是連動的，但是第一個，我相信\n我們已經達成共識了，因為涉及到產業發展、供應鏈技術的升級及國產化，主管機關當然就是\n經濟部，這個很明顯；可是涉及到整個如何去部署、如何形成戰力及要買多少，這部分問經濟\n部也怪怪的，所以藉由雙機關的設計，相信大家可以達成一個共識，也非常合理。","quality":0.014},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-08-26T12:55:09.494550+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:55:26.045529+08:00","text":"在立法例上\n，像在災防法裡面的規定甚至都可以拉到七個主管機關，所以我們也尊重台灣民眾黨把整個主\n管機關定為經濟部跟國防部。","quality":0.018},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-08-26T12:55:26.045529+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:55:42.596508+08:00","text":"台灣民眾黨提到，如果編列一般預算的話當然就不會有數字出來\n，這當然是民進黨的優先選項，其實各個版本裡面都在講國防自主，如果可以形成一個跨年度\n、延續性的，讓國防部按照它的專業看要如何去部署，說實在話，其實比較適合特別條例，但\n是因為國民黨跟台灣民眾黨的版本又牽扯到產業發展，立法的目的有所不同，這部分可能大家\n可以再好好的溝通一下，看到底金額要多少，如果是年度預算，當然就沒有金額；如果是特別\n條例的話，當然要設定一個金額。","quality":0.005},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-08-26T12:55:42.596508+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:55:59.147487+08:00","text":"以上是民進黨黨團的報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:55:59.147487+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:56:15.698466+08:00","text":"請國民黨黨團表達意見，個別委員請稍後表達意見，國民黨黨團請，許宇甄委員請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-08-26T12:56:15.698466+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:56:32.249444+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-08-26T12:56:32.249444+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:56:48.800423+08:00","text":"其實國民黨黨團的版本非常清楚，我們就是希望國防自主採購跟產業發展\n能夠並重，所以我們認為主管機關應該要有經濟部，但是我們有一個主辦機關，就是有經濟部\n跟國防部，分別針對所主管的相關產業跟國防的部分能夠共同推動。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-08-26T12:56:48.800423+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:57:05.351402+08:00","text":"為什麼要年度預算？","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-08-26T12:57:05.351402+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:57:21.902381+08:00","text":"因為其實編列年度預算的話，每年送來立法院，我們能夠做有效的監督\n，也比較知道我們現在用的相關經費是不是用在真正的需要上面，尤其我們都知道在無人機快\n速迭代的狀況下，其實每一年都需要採購，如果只是用特別預算，固定 6 年採購或是押注在單\n一廠商的做法，風險過高，所以應該要分批採購、滾動修正來維持戰力，也避免在交貨的時候\n早就已經過時的問題，這是我們為什麼堅持要年度預算的原因。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-08-26T12:57:21.902381+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:57:38.453360+08:00","text":"協 12\n第三個，在經費的部分，國民黨黨團也是堅持 2,400億要分 6年編列，一年 400億。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:57:38.453360+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:57:55.004339+08:00","text":"分 6年，好的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:57:55.004339+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:58:11.555317+08:00","text":"現在個別列席的委員要不要補充表達意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:58:11.555317+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:58:28.106296+08:00","text":"陳冠廷委員請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-26T12:58:28.106296+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:58:44.657275+08:00","text":"謝謝院長，我特別再強調一下莊委員剛才所提的，如果是特別預算，當然有這個數字\n，如果是一般預算，理論上是行政部門自己要編列，如果我們再把它擴張到每年要編多少、總\n額是多少，而且許委員特別提到總額限制是 2,400 億，每年編列 400 億，如果國防部使用在無人\n機的年度預算已經超越這個部分的話，那這樣不是就沒有辦法符合第十五條？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-26T12:58:44.657275+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:59:01.208254+08:00","text":"這才是我們比較\n擔心的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-26T12:59:01.208254+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:59:17.759233+08:00","text":"而且你們第三條裡面有無人載具的定義，包含旋翼、定翼、垂直起降等無人機，這些\n無人機在其他部會同時也有使用，那也算在這一條嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-26T12:59:17.759233+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:59:34.310212+08:00","text":"因為你們寫的是中央政府。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-08-26T12:59:34.310212+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T12:59:50.861190+08:00","text":"所以我是認\n為如果有年度預算的話，假設不得已要編制年度預算，也不應該把數字跟上限規定在裡面。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T12:59:50.861190+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T13:00:07.412169+08:00","text":"謝謝陳冠廷委員的補充說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T13:00:07.412169+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T13:00:23.963148+08:00","text":"列席的個別委員有沒有補充意見？沒有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T13:00:23.963148+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T13:00:40.514127+08:00","text":"部長，我想您的立場剛剛已經表達得非常清楚了，您跟經濟部還有沒有要補充的？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T13:00:40.514127+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T13:00:57.065106+08:00","text":"如果沒有\n，我要宣告了，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T13:00:57.065106+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T13:01:13.616085+08:00","text":"現在作以下宣告：\n一、有關本案無人機採購條例草案，各黨團未有共識，我們就依協商結論，定於明天院會進\n行處理。","quality":0.283},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T13:01:13.616085+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T13:01:30.167063+08:00","text":"二、明天院會 9 點開始，9 點 30 分各黨團幹部請至議場後方主席辦公室進行議程溝通，10 點\n院會將進行議案之處理及表決。","quality":0.109},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T13:01:30.167063+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T13:01:46.718042+08:00","text":"三、本會期我們全體委員及議事人員都備極辛勞，尤其是 8 月，包括預算案的協商、同意權\n案審查、修憲案公聽會、相關議案的表決，幾乎是天天開會。","quality":0.069},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T13:01:46.718042+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T13:02:03.269021+08:00","text":"因此，為求 8 月底最後兩次院會\n通過議案校對的正確性，我們必須給議事人員充足時間。","quality":0.114},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T13:02:03.269021+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T13:02:19.820000+08:00","text":"請議事人員在下會期 9 月 29 號開議日\n前，將本會期 8月份最後兩次院會通過的議案整理、校對完畢後，再咨請總統公布。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T13:02:19.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-08-26T13:07:32.696667+08:00","text":"今天協商到此為止，現在散會，謝謝各位黨團幹部，謝謝各位列席官員。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-08-26T13:07:33.196667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-08-26T13:07:34.339524+08:00","text":"散會（16時 45分）","quality":0}],"speakers":[{"total_seconds":153.39,"embed_id":"SPEAKER_00","speaker":"SPEAKER_00","embedding":"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"},{"total_seconds":232.27,"embed_id":"SPEAKER_01","speaker":"SPEAKER_03","embedding":"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"},{"total_seconds":346.9,"embed_id":"SPEAKER_02","speaker":"SPEAKER_04","embedding":"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"},{"total_seconds":329.1,"embed_id":"SPEAKER_03","speaker":"SPEAKER_02","embedding":"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