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施政報告質詢以疾問及答方式進行"},{"start":4221.34,"end":4223.34,"text":"每位委員詢答時間30分鐘"},{"start":4223.34,"end":4226.34,"text":"如果兩個議員根證"},{"start":4226.34,"end":4228.34,"text":"如果兩個議題進行質詢"},{"start":4228.34,"end":4230.34,"text":"每一個議題為15分鐘"},{"start":4230.34,"end":4232.34,"text":"採用聯合質詢時"},{"start":4232.34,"end":4234.34,"text":"一 其人數合併計算詢答時間"},{"start":4234.34,"end":4236.34,"text":"不得超過三位"},{"start":4236.79,"end":4238.79,"text":"二 一登記次序"},{"start":4238.79,"end":4240.79,"text":"輪到質詢之委員如果不在場"},{"start":4240.79,"end":4242.79,"text":"已放棄質詢論"},{"start":4242.79,"end":4244.79,"text":"採用聯合質詢時"},{"start":4244.79,"end":4246.79,"text":"其中質詢委員如不在場"},{"start":4246.79,"end":4248.79,"text":"亦已放棄質詢論"},{"start":4248.79,"end":4250.79,"text":"詢答時間不予併入"},{"start":4251.64,"end":4254.64,"text":"現在我們請民主黨報告首長請假進行"},{"start":4255.48,"end":4282.48,"text":"報告完畢"},{"start":4282.72,"end":4284.72,"text":"好 報告完畢 我們現在開始進行"},{"start":4284.72,"end":4286.72,"text":"施政質詢"},{"start":4286.72,"end":4290.72,"text":"我們首先請陳昭之委員質詢"},{"start":4290.72,"end":4292.72,"text":"范元委員請準備"},{"start":4302.75,"end":4303.75,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":4303.75,"end":4305.75,"text":"有請卓院長"},{"start":4306.02,"end":4307.02,"text":"麻煩請卓院長備選"},{"start":4317.79,"end":4318.79,"text":"陳委員好"},{"start":4318.79,"end":4319.79,"text":"院長早"},{"start":4319.79,"end":4321.79,"text":"院長我想先請教你喔"},{"start":4321.79,"end":4323.79,"text":"您希望台灣的歷史"},{"start":4323.79,"end":4325.79,"text":"未來如何評價你"},{"start":4325.79,"end":4327.79,"text":"您是一位大人物"},{"start":4327.79,"end":4330.79,"text":"每一位大人物大概都會有他的歷史評價"},{"start":4330.79,"end":4332.79,"text":"有時候是在有生之年"},{"start":4332.79,"end":4334.79,"text":"有時候是在這個蓋棺論定"},{"start":4334.79,"end":4337.79,"text":"但也有時候是隔了好多代"},{"start":4337.79,"end":4339.79,"text":"但是我也理解就是說"},{"start":4339.79,"end":4344.79,"text":"通常歷史評價不太容易掌握在自己的手上"},{"start":4344.79,"end":4346.79,"text":"那我想報告院長"},{"start":4346.79,"end":4350.79,"text":"這個我看過古往今來很多名人的"},{"start":4350.79,"end":4352.79,"text":"這個所謂的慕志明"},{"start":4352.79,"end":4355.79,"text":"他們就是外國人放在墓碑上的慕志明"},{"start":4355.79,"end":4358.79,"text":"我也為自己寫下了慕志明"},{"start":4358.79,"end":4361.79,"text":"那其實慕志明台灣人沒有做這個習慣"},{"start":4361.79,"end":4363.79,"text":"但是它是個概念"},{"start":4364.75,"end":4369.75,"text":"也就是說你可不可以用短短幾個字或一兩句話"},{"start":4369.75,"end":4372.75,"text":"來做一個人一生的總評"},{"start":4372.75,"end":4374.75,"text":"所以我想請教院長"},{"start":4374.75,"end":4376.75,"text":"如果請您親自執筆"},{"start":4376.75,"end":4380.75,"text":"您會為自己寫下什麼樣的一生總評"},{"start":4380.75,"end":4382.75,"text":"一兩句話好嗎"},{"start":4383.84,"end":4385.84,"text":"歷史的評價應該交給歷史"},{"start":4385.84,"end":4388.84,"text":"我自己應該沒有那個能力為自己做評價"},{"start":4388.84,"end":4391.84,"text":"但是我跟全國的公務人員一樣"},{"start":4393.02,"end":4396.02,"text":"依法來從事公務的所有國家的公務人員"},{"start":4396.02,"end":4398.02,"text":"無論是軍公教"},{"start":4398.02,"end":4399.02,"text":"無論是中央地方"},{"start":4399.02,"end":4402.02,"text":"都應該在謹守奮進"},{"start":4402.02,"end":4403.02,"text":"奉公守法"},{"start":4403.02,"end":4405.02,"text":"恪遵憲法"},{"start":4405.02,"end":4408.02,"text":"遵照依法行政的原則來做"},{"start":4408.02,"end":4412.02,"text":"從議員到立委到行政政務人員"},{"start":4412.02,"end":4413.02,"text":"所有的生物"},{"start":4413.02,"end":4416.02,"text":"一兩句話就可以一個評價"},{"start":4416.02,"end":4421.02,"text":"那院長就是覺得自己是恪遵這個法規來執行"},{"start":4421.02,"end":4422.02,"text":"您的職務"},{"start":4422.02,"end":4424.02,"text":"院長這個川習會剛結束"},{"start":4424.02,"end":4426.02,"text":"我今天不談政治效應"},{"start":4426.02,"end":4430.02,"text":"但是我想就這個美國跟中國之間的區別"},{"start":4430.02,"end":4431.02,"text":"我想請教你"},{"start":4432.27,"end":4434.27,"text":"就麻煩您很簡短的回答就可以"},{"start":4434.27,"end":4438.27,"text":"請問美國跟中國哪一個是民主國家"},{"start":4439.59,"end":4441.59,"text":"哪一個是民主國家"},{"start":4441.59,"end":4443.59,"text":"這個在天平的"},{"start":4443.59,"end":4445.59,"text":"光譜的兩端太懸殊了"},{"start":4445.59,"end":4447.59,"text":"當然是美國是一個民主的國家"},{"start":4447.59,"end":4449.59,"text":"中國一點邊都沉不上"},{"start":4449.59,"end":4454.59,"text":"那你認為美國和中國哪一個對自由跟人權的保障是比較完整的"},{"start":4456.04,"end":4460.04,"text":"當然美國的尊重民主價值跟人權價值的普世價值"},{"start":4460.04,"end":4462.04,"text":"跟世界有盟國家是比較一致的"},{"start":4462.04,"end":4466.04,"text":"那中國是屬於極權統治的黨國時代"},{"start":4466.04,"end":4468.04,"text":"院長簡單回答就可以謝謝你"},{"start":4468.04,"end":4472.04,"text":"那你認為美國和中國哪一個對於人民的需求"},{"start":4472.04,"end":4476.04,"text":"比較會去努力去達成他們的需求"},{"start":4476.04,"end":4479.04,"text":"美國從人民的需求面滿足人民的需求"},{"start":4479.04,"end":4483.04,"text":"中國是從統治面來壓迫人民接受統治的手法"},{"start":4483.04,"end":4484.04,"text":"那我就請教院長"},{"start":4484.04,"end":4488.04,"text":"美國跟中國哪個國家已經把代理義母制度化了"},{"start":4489.35,"end":4491.35,"text":"哪一個國家"},{"start":4490.7,"end":4492.7,"text":"哪一個國家"},{"start":4491.95,"end":4496.95,"text":"代孕對把代孕合法化了法制化了法法制化的背後"},{"start":4496.95,"end":4499.95,"text":"要看他整個社會的社會的風氣"},{"start":4499.95,"end":4504.95,"text":"以及整個社會的認知是不是在和於人權的規定底下"},{"start":4506.16,"end":4510.16,"text":"美國40年一個是一位的進職"},{"start":4510.16,"end":4513.16,"text":"院長就是這麼清楚你OK嗎"},{"start":4513.16,"end":4514.16,"text":"你這個答案就清楚"},{"start":4515.04,"end":4517.04,"text":"那院長我曾經非常的支持民進黨"},{"start":4517.04,"end":4521.04,"text":"因為早期的民進黨他不但為人民爭取民主"},{"start":4521.04,"end":4523.04,"text":"那也提倡進步價值"},{"start":4523.04,"end":4525.04,"text":"可是我覺得這些年還是退步了"},{"start":4525.04,"end":4530.04,"text":"那這個2002年賴清德立委"},{"start":4530.04,"end":4532.04,"text":"他提出了台灣第一部的代孕法案"},{"start":4533.01,"end":4536.01,"text":"但是20幾年後賴立委已經成為賴總統了"},{"start":4536.01,"end":4541.01,"text":"可是現在的民進黨立委卻用力在反對代孕"},{"start":4541.01,"end":4544.01,"text":"院長有一些人稱民進黨是綠共"},{"start":4544.01,"end":4547.01,"text":"當然我個人沒有百分之百認同這件事情"},{"start":4547.01,"end":4551.01,"text":"可是我有發現在代孕這個議題上"},{"start":4551.01,"end":4556.01,"text":"民進黨立委的主流論述跟中國共產黨如出一策"},{"start":4556.01,"end":4559.01,"text":"我想請院長看一下這個投影片"},{"start":4559.01,"end":4561.01,"text":"中共人大代表蔣勝南說"},{"start":4561.01,"end":4564.01,"text":"代孕是把女性器官視為加工廠"},{"start":4564.01,"end":4566.01,"text":"是對女性的物化跟歧視"},{"start":4566.01,"end":4569.01,"text":"不是任何需求都需要去被滿足的"},{"start":4569.01,"end":4572.01,"text":"代孕是一種削弱的"},{"start":4573.07,"end":4575.07,"text":"削弱是階級"},{"start":4575.07,"end":4578.07,"text":"沈柏楊甚至說代孕的需求不會消失"},{"start":4578.07,"end":4581.07,"text":"人類對賭博的需求也不會消失"},{"start":4581.07,"end":4584.07,"text":"但不代表我們要建立制度來應對"},{"start":4584.07,"end":4587.07,"text":"應該選擇成本較小的方式來進行"},{"start":4587.07,"end":4592.07,"text":"天哪連主張任何形式的交流都是統戰的沈柏楊"},{"start":4592.07,"end":4595.07,"text":"他的論述居然跟中共一模一樣"},{"start":4595.07,"end":4597.07,"text":"院長你不覺得諷刺嗎"},{"start":4597.07,"end":4600.07,"text":"民進黨口口聲聲說台美友好"},{"start":4600.07,"end":4607.07,"text":"去把美國跟英國施行40年的代孕制度"},{"start":4607.07,"end":4609.07,"text":"完全妖魔化了"},{"start":4609.52,"end":4611.52,"text":"跟中國共產黨做法一樣"},{"start":4611.52,"end":4614.52,"text":"無視人民的需求一味的禁止"},{"start":4614.52,"end":4616.52,"text":"院長我們現在繼續往下看"},{"start":4617.84,"end":4621.84,"text":"請院長看看法治化跟地下化的對比"},{"start":4621.84,"end":4624.84,"text":"左邊是最近轟動全球的新聞"},{"start":4624.84,"end":4628.84,"text":"發生在有完善代孕制度的美國"},{"start":4628.84,"end":4629.84,"text":"Lady Gaga"},{"start":4630.23,"end":4634.23,"text":"她因為飽受病痛之苦而選擇了代孕"},{"start":4634.23,"end":4638.23,"text":"全球媒體都說是喜迎愛女"},{"start":4638.72,"end":4640.72,"text":"都說是一樁喜事喜迎愛女"},{"start":4640.72,"end":4642.72,"text":"院長你認識Lady Gaga吧"},{"start":4642.72,"end":4643.72,"text":"你知道吧"},{"start":4643.72,"end":4644.72,"text":"聽過歌"},{"start":4644.72,"end":4646.72,"text":"Lady Gaga長期以來喔"},{"start":4646.72,"end":4652.72,"text":"她是對女性權益跟LGBTQ這個族群發聲"},{"start":4652.72,"end":4657.72,"text":"她甚至坦然揭露她自己曾經被性侵被霸凌"},{"start":4657.72,"end":4659.72,"text":"那她的作品很多都是反思"},{"start":4659.72,"end":4666.72,"text":"在父權體制下女性是如何被剝削被凝視被壓迫"},{"start":4666.72,"end":4668.72,"text":"那麼我想請問院長喔"},{"start":4669.04,"end":4671.04,"text":"你覺得Lady Gaga她尋求代孕"},{"start":4671.04,"end":4675.04,"text":"你會覺得她是在壓迫剝削女性嗎"},{"start":4675.04,"end":4676.04,"text":"請你簡單回答"},{"start":4676.04,"end":4677.04,"text":"你覺得呢"},{"start":4677.04,"end":4682.04,"text":"每個人對自己以及對群體的價值觀念判斷不一樣"},{"start":4682.04,"end":4683.04,"text":"院長我是請教您"},{"start":4683.04,"end":4685.04,"text":"我尊重Lady Gaga"},{"start":4685.83,"end":4686.83,"text":"我尊重她"},{"start":4686.83,"end":4688.83,"text":"那您覺得她是在剝削女性嗎"},{"start":4688.83,"end":4690.83,"text":"我也尊重她在美國社會當中"},{"start":4690.83,"end":4694.83,"text":"在法治底細下所擁有的自己的選擇權"},{"start":4694.83,"end":4696.83,"text":"院長請你再看看右邊這張圖表"},{"start":4696.83,"end":4699.83,"text":"中國政府是嚴格禁止代孕的"},{"start":4699.83,"end":4700.83,"text":"但結果呢"},{"start":4700.83,"end":4705.83,"text":"中國成為全世界地下化代孕工廠"},{"start":4705.83,"end":4707.83,"text":"最大的地下化代孕工廠"},{"start":4707.83,"end":4710.83,"text":"沒有任何監督跟管理"},{"start":4710.83,"end":4711.83,"text":"那代表什麼"},{"start":4711.83,"end":4713.83,"text":"孕母跟小孩都得不到保障啊"},{"start":4713.83,"end":4714.83,"text":"請問院長"},{"start":4714.83,"end":4717.83,"text":"你要台灣也變成這個樣子嗎"},{"start":4717.83,"end":4720.83,"text":"台灣跟中國完全不一樣就在這裡"},{"start":4720.83,"end":4721.83,"text":"我們禁止一樣"},{"start":4721.83,"end":4723.83,"text":"就不會讓它地下猖狂"},{"start":4723.83,"end":4724.83,"text":"院長小心"},{"start":4724.83,"end":4726.83,"text":"您接下來看我的這個內容"},{"start":4726.83,"end":4728.83,"text":"我的單位已經成真了"},{"start":4728.83,"end":4730.83,"text":"今年6月士林地院判決"},{"start":4730.83,"end":4733.83,"text":"白菜寶寶協會涉嫌違法跨國中間單元"},{"start":4733.83,"end":4735.83,"text":"還有詐欺取材"},{"start":4735.83,"end":4737.83,"text":"那受害者已經組成自救會"},{"start":4737.83,"end":4741.83,"text":"已經足以組成自救會來提告"},{"start":4741.83,"end":4744.83,"text":"那目前還有一些孩子的戶籍等問題"},{"start":4744.83,"end":4745.83,"text":"還有非常重要的"},{"start":4745.83,"end":4747.83,"text":"上個禮拜台中地檢署"},{"start":4749.15,"end":4751.15,"text":"破獲一起跨國代孕"},{"start":4751.15,"end":4755.15,"text":"短短一年就有25名非法代孕"},{"start":4755.15,"end":4757.15,"text":"在台灣出生的孩子"},{"start":4758.31,"end":4760.31,"text":"這些都是台灣的小孩"},{"start":4760.31,"end":4762.31,"text":"他們的爸爸都是台灣人"},{"start":4762.73,"end":4764.73,"text":"但是孩子沒有法律保障"},{"start":4765.02,"end":4768.02,"text":"那也會面臨侵權身份的問題"},{"start":4768.02,"end":4771.02,"text":"那代孕媽媽更是沒有保障"},{"start":4771.02,"end":4773.02,"text":"院長那發生在台灣的"},{"start":4773.02,"end":4774.02,"text":"台中的一家醫院"},{"start":4774.02,"end":4776.02,"text":"她去生出這個孩子"},{"start":4776.02,"end":4781.02,"text":"沒有法治化才最可能造成商品化跟剝削"},{"start":4781.63,"end":4782.63,"text":"這主要原因"},{"start":4782.63,"end":4783.63,"text":"您同意我這個論調嗎"},{"start":4784.89,"end":4786.89,"text":"我應該我們這樣講"},{"start":4786.89,"end":4788.89,"text":"對一個無法生育的人"},{"start":4788.89,"end":4790.89,"text":"我們用各種方式來協助她是應該的"},{"start":4790.89,"end":4791.89,"text":"但是這個方式"},{"start":4791.89,"end":4793.89,"text":"在這個社會上的價值觀"},{"start":4793.89,"end":4795.89,"text":"要普遍被接受"},{"start":4795.89,"end":4797.89,"text":"而且我們應該有法可管"},{"start":4797.89,"end":4798.89,"text":"有社會的風氣"},{"start":4798.89,"end":4799.89,"text":"社會的習慣"},{"start":4799.89,"end":4801.89,"text":"可以來規範一定的行為"},{"start":4801.89,"end":4802.89,"text":"那我們也相信"},{"start":4802.89,"end":4804.89,"text":"所有進步的女性"},{"start":4804.89,"end":4805.89,"text":"所有進步的女性"},{"start":4805.89,"end":4809.89,"text":"在推動平權家運動的時候"},{"start":4809.89,"end":4812.89,"text":"也不見得完全是都同意這樣的行為"},{"start":4812.89,"end":4814.89,"text":"但是我們希望取得更大的共識"},{"start":4814.89,"end":4815.89,"text":"達到平衡點"},{"start":4815.89,"end":4817.89,"text":"醫療的協助者可能您都認識"},{"start":4817.89,"end":4819.89,"text":"我們現在反觀中共"},{"start":4819.89,"end":4821.89,"text":"這個國家衛生委員10年前"},{"start":4821.89,"end":4823.89,"text":"就說要嚴格的打擊待遇"},{"start":4823.89,"end":4826.89,"text":"結果越打越猖獗"},{"start":4826.89,"end":4829.89,"text":"那台灣就是剛剛我提到的地檢署"},{"start":4829.89,"end":4830.89,"text":"破獲這個大案"},{"start":4830.89,"end":4831.89,"text":"但是我要告訴院長"},{"start":4831.89,"end":4833.89,"text":"我知道的案例"},{"start":4833.89,"end":4836.89,"text":"其實都沒有包括在裡面"},{"start":4836.89,"end":4839.89,"text":"那當國家不願法治化管理的時候"},{"start":4839.89,"end":4841.89,"text":"中國已經示範給你看"},{"start":4841.89,"end":4842.89,"text":"你意外的禁止"},{"start":4842.89,"end":4844.89,"text":"那人民有需求"},{"start":4844.89,"end":4846.89,"text":"結果呢 地下化"},{"start":4847.09,"end":4849.09,"text":"讓很多人都冒著很大的風險"},{"start":4849.09,"end":4851.09,"text":"院長 這是你要的結果嗎"},{"start":4851.09,"end":4852.09,"text":"台灣都發生了"},{"start":4852.09,"end":4856.09,"text":"我們正也全面收集外國各種的立法力"},{"start":4856.09,"end":4859.09,"text":"無論是贊同的或是禁止的"},{"start":4859.09,"end":4860.09,"text":"我們來分析"},{"start":4860.09,"end":4863.09,"text":"跟我們台灣社會能不能有一個平衡點"},{"start":4863.09,"end":4865.09,"text":"那這個事情的工作一直在進行當中"},{"start":4865.09,"end":4867.09,"text":"院長 我再繼續談"},{"start":4867.09,"end":4871.09,"text":"我很遺憾您始終沒有掌握完整的民意"},{"start":4871.09,"end":4873.09,"text":"我最近拜訪了一位醫師資政"},{"start":4873.09,"end":4875.09,"text":"我想你知道是誰"},{"start":4875.09,"end":4876.09,"text":"他對我說"},{"start":4876.09,"end":4878.09,"text":"旁邊還有人 我的助理"},{"start":4878.09,"end":4881.09,"text":"代孕是功德無量影響深淵"},{"start":4881.09,"end":4884.09,"text":"那張景森前政委他是公開談"},{"start":4884.09,"end":4885.09,"text":"在臉書說"},{"start":4885.09,"end":4887.09,"text":"不應該用社會沒有共識"},{"start":4887.09,"end":4889.09,"text":"一再拖延這個代孕立法"},{"start":4889.09,"end":4891.09,"text":"他甚至提醒民進黨喔"},{"start":4891.09,"end":4893.09,"text":"因為你號稱是民主進步嘛"},{"start":4893.09,"end":4895.09,"text":"他甚至提醒民進黨說要注意"},{"start":4895.09,"end":4898.09,"text":"自己進步這個主張是不是過時了"},{"start":4898.69,"end":4900.69,"text":"他總共提出十點"},{"start":4900.69,"end":4901.69,"text":"關於代孕修法的建議"},{"start":4901.69,"end":4903.69,"text":"我認為相當的精準"},{"start":4903.69,"end":4906.69,"text":"可以作為修法的重要參考"},{"start":4906.69,"end":4908.69,"text":"那院長我想請教您"},{"start":4908.69,"end":4909.69,"text":"您可以撥點時間"},{"start":4909.69,"end":4912.69,"text":"領寶貴的時間向這位資政"},{"start":4913.2,"end":4916.2,"text":"還有這個張景森前政委請議"},{"start":4916.2,"end":4917.2,"text":"聽聽他們的想法嗎"},{"start":4917.2,"end":4918.2,"text":"你可以撥時間嗎"},{"start":4918.2,"end":4919.2,"text":"當然可以"},{"start":4919.2,"end":4922.2,"text":"張景森前政委無論是在談這個議題"},{"start":4922.2,"end":4924.2,"text":"或是在談高鐵的議題"},{"start":4924.2,"end":4926.2,"text":"我都可以向他來請議"},{"start":4926.2,"end":4928.2,"text":"因為他代表的一種聲音"},{"start":4928.2,"end":4929.2,"text":"也是臺灣寶貴的意見"},{"start":4929.2,"end":4932.2,"text":"院長這位資政本身是不孕症醫師啦"},{"start":4932.2,"end":4933.2,"text":"你知道我指的是誰"},{"start":4933.2,"end":4934.2,"text":"臺中的"},{"start":4934.2,"end":4936.2,"text":"好 一起來請教他嘛"},{"start":4936.2,"end":4939.2,"text":"還有上次委員會人工申職法審查的時候"},{"start":4939.2,"end":4941.2,"text":"民進黨用非常粗暴 霸道"},{"start":4941.2,"end":4942.2,"text":"不人道的方式"},{"start":4943.9,"end":4944.9,"text":"來對待我"},{"start":4944.9,"end":4946.9,"text":"一開始就程序發言"},{"start":4946.9,"end":4948.9,"text":"然後用表決方式把待遇脫鉤"},{"start":4950.09,"end":4953.09,"text":"然後當天禁止討論待遇"},{"start":4953.09,"end":4956.09,"text":"他完全漠視子宮有缺損的婦女"},{"start":4957.59,"end":4959.59,"text":"因為求子不得他的痛苦"},{"start":4959.59,"end":4962.59,"text":"當然也扼殺了男童日家庭"},{"start":4962.59,"end":4964.59,"text":"他想要有孩子的渴望"},{"start":4965.55,"end":4967.55,"text":"所以我想請教院長"},{"start":4967.55,"end":4969.55,"text":"這個秦駿院不是沒有提過"},{"start":4969.55,"end":4972.55,"text":"韓代孕的這個人工申職法草案"},{"start":4972.55,"end":4974.55,"text":"其實用專法處理我也可以接受"},{"start":4975.56,"end":4976.56,"text":"院長"},{"start":4976.54,"end":4978.54,"text":"您可以承諾嗎"},{"start":4978.71,"end":4980.71,"text":"就是說可不可以再提出一次"},{"start":4980.71,"end":4982.71,"text":"韓有代孕的"},{"start":4982.85,"end":4984.85,"text":"這個草案"},{"start":4984.85,"end":4986.85,"text":"用專法也行"},{"start":4986.75,"end":4987.75,"text":"可以嗎院長"},{"start":4987.75,"end":4989.75,"text":"因為目前我們在國內的"},{"start":4989.75,"end":4992.75,"text":"收集各方的意見差距還是很大"},{"start":4992.75,"end":4994.75,"text":"所以在這個情況底下"},{"start":4994.75,"end":4996.75,"text":"我們所提出的人工申職"},{"start":4996.75,"end":4997.75,"text":"不能用這個爭議"},{"start":4997.75,"end":5000.75,"text":"院長容許我說天下是誰沒有爭議"},{"start":5002.08,"end":5004.08,"text":"但是爭議還是很大"},{"start":5004.08,"end":5006.08,"text":"有接近八成是不同意的意見"},{"start":5006.08,"end":5008.08,"text":"那個八成有問題的啦"},{"start":5008.08,"end":5009.08,"text":"不是平台上的"},{"start":5009.08,"end":5010.08,"text":"院長"},{"start":5010.84,"end":5011.84,"text":"不好意思 每個人都有爭議"},{"start":5011.84,"end":5013.84,"text":"也許我在我的職位上也有爭議"},{"start":5013.84,"end":5015.84,"text":"也許您在你的職位上也有爭議"},{"start":5015.84,"end":5017.84,"text":"不是用爭議就一再的拖延"},{"start":5017.84,"end":5019.84,"text":"我已經告訴你後遺症都出來了"},{"start":5021.07,"end":5023.07,"text":"院長 這個牽涉人權跟國安問題"},{"start":5023.07,"end":5024.07,"text":"您"},{"start":5025.76,"end":5027.76,"text":"您還覺得有這樣大的疑慮嗎"},{"start":5027.76,"end":5030.76,"text":"你也知道台灣今年剩下九萬多嘛"},{"start":5030.76,"end":5031.76,"text":"出生數嘛"},{"start":5031.76,"end":5033.76,"text":"我想你要背在大腦裡嘛"},{"start":5033.76,"end":5035.76,"text":"台灣不需要中國打過來啊"},{"start":5036.41,"end":5038.41,"text":"直接亡國滅種啦"},{"start":5038.41,"end":5040.41,"text":"這些是不怕養孩子的人啦"},{"start":5040.41,"end":5042.41,"text":"他有困難啦 醫學上的困難啦"},{"start":5042.41,"end":5044.41,"text":"我還是請院長"},{"start":5044.41,"end":5046.41,"text":"我可以向委員承諾"},{"start":5046.41,"end":5049.41,"text":"我們會積極的去尋求更大的共識"},{"start":5049.41,"end":5052.41,"text":"過程當中我們會把這個時間"},{"start":5052.41,"end":5055.41,"text":"盡量把它弄到一個大家可以看到的時辰"},{"start":5055.41,"end":5058.41,"text":"去做出一個可以討論的機制出來"},{"start":5058.41,"end":5060.41,"text":"那這個過程當中"},{"start":5060.41,"end":5062.41,"text":"我相信無論是人工申職或代孕"},{"start":5062.41,"end":5064.41,"text":"他還有其他的方式"},{"start":5064.41,"end":5066.41,"text":"可以來讓希望擁有小孩的人"},{"start":5066.41,"end":5068.41,"text":"沒有其他的方式"},{"start":5068.41,"end":5070.41,"text":"子宮有問題的話"},{"start":5070.41,"end":5072.41,"text":"時部長在委員會回答我"},{"start":5072.41,"end":5074.41,"text":"我很想罵他"},{"start":5073.65,"end":5075.65,"text":"子宮有問題沒有其他替代方式"},{"start":5075.65,"end":5077.65,"text":"我很尊重自己"},{"start":5077.65,"end":5079.65,"text":"他沒有辦法"},{"start":5079.65,"end":5081.65,"text":"從自己所重出的小孩"},{"start":5081.65,"end":5083.65,"text":"這樣的一個意念 我很尊重"},{"start":5083.65,"end":5085.65,"text":"院長我還有故事"},{"start":5085.65,"end":5087.65,"text":"今年7月德國執政議會黨團主席"},{"start":5087.65,"end":5089.65,"text":"叫施潘"},{"start":5089.65,"end":5091.65,"text":"他辭職下台 我先問院長"},{"start":5091.65,"end":5093.65,"text":"你知道他為什麼辭職嗎"},{"start":5093.68,"end":5095.68,"text":"你說赴美代理"},{"start":5095.68,"end":5097.68,"text":"對 施潘 不是不是"},{"start":5097.68,"end":5099.68,"text":"德國執政議會黨團主席叫施潘"},{"start":5100.42,"end":5102.42,"text":"他辭職下台了"},{"start":5102.44,"end":5104.44,"text":"院長知道原因嗎 7月的時候"},{"start":5104.44,"end":5108.44,"text":"因為他曾經投票反對代孕"},{"start":5108.44,"end":5111.44,"text":"可是最後他自己到美國尋求代孕"},{"start":5111.44,"end":5113.44,"text":"他被人家說是雙標啊"},{"start":5114.32,"end":5115.32,"text":"這就是我說的"},{"start":5116.09,"end":5118.09,"text":"如果今天是你女兒 你孫女"},{"start":5118.09,"end":5120.09,"text":"你的摯愛 你的親友"},{"start":5120.8,"end":5122.8,"text":"面對同樣的問題的時候"},{"start":5122.8,"end":5124.8,"text":"而且他唯一的希望"},{"start":5125.12,"end":5127.12,"text":"你又不准他去追求"},{"start":5127.12,"end":5129.12,"text":"施潘在他的辭職信說"},{"start":5129.12,"end":5133.12,"text":"自己在政治職務跟個人幸福之間"},{"start":5133.12,"end":5135.12,"text":"難以平衡"},{"start":5135.12,"end":5137.12,"text":"政治工作就是要找出"},{"start":5137.12,"end":5139.12,"text":"這個中間可以的平衡點"},{"start":5139.12,"end":5143.12,"text":"讓社會大家通用共用這個標準"},{"start":5143.12,"end":5145.12,"text":"這個事情不用太正確"},{"start":5145.12,"end":5147.12,"text":"我告訴你他是因為雙標而下來"},{"start":5147.12,"end":5149.12,"text":"而且他需要"},{"start":5149.12,"end":5151.12,"text":"院長一句話"},{"start":5151.12,"end":5153.12,"text":"未經他人苦莫勸他人善"},{"start":5154.67,"end":5158.67,"text":"未經他人苦莫勸他人善"},{"start":5158.67,"end":5160.67,"text":"我再次提醒院長跟反對代孕的同事們"},{"start":5160.67,"end":5162.67,"text":"請不要用你的政治職務"},{"start":5162.67,"end":5164.67,"text":"去阻擋別人追求幸福"},{"start":5164.67,"end":5166.67,"text":"尤其是民進黨立委"},{"start":5166.67,"end":5168.67,"text":"你們知不知道"},{"start":5168.03,"end":5170.03,"text":"貴黨有大咖大咖的人物"},{"start":5170.03,"end":5172.03,"text":"他的孫子是利用代孕出生的"},{"start":5172.03,"end":5174.03,"text":"而且不只一位"},{"start":5175.15,"end":5177.15,"text":"他們是親口告訴我的"},{"start":5177.15,"end":5179.15,"text":"那基於尊重隱私"},{"start":5179.15,"end":5181.15,"text":"我不會在這裡公開"},{"start":5181.3,"end":5183.3,"text":"院長您知道是誰嗎"},{"start":5183.3,"end":5185.3,"text":"我不知道"},{"start":5185.3,"end":5187.3,"text":"我一直覺得您的意見"},{"start":5187.3,"end":5189.3,"text":"您的想法非常的封閉跟封鎖"},{"start":5189.3,"end":5191.3,"text":"當然他不告訴你"},{"start":5191.3,"end":5193.3,"text":"他會告訴我"},{"start":5193.3,"end":5195.3,"text":"其實反對者對代孕的權益"},{"start":5195.3,"end":5197.3,"text":"我必須回到一個"},{"start":5197.67,"end":5199.67,"text":"實際面來談"},{"start":5199.67,"end":5201.67,"text":"他們的擔憂是存在的"},{"start":5201.67,"end":5203.67,"text":"我承認這些疑慮是存在"},{"start":5203.67,"end":5205.67,"text":"可是正是因為疑慮存在"},{"start":5205.67,"end":5207.67,"text":"我們是不是應該如此"},{"start":5207.67,"end":5209.67,"text":"更應如此才需要把它法制化"},{"start":5209.67,"end":5211.67,"text":"要轉化為具體的法條"},{"start":5211.67,"end":5213.67,"text":"那不是說把問題擱著"},{"start":5213.67,"end":5215.67,"text":"莊重沒看見"},{"start":5215.67,"end":5217.67,"text":"莊重沒看見房間裡的大象"},{"start":5217.92,"end":5219.92,"text":"根據衛福部的統計"},{"start":5219.92,"end":5221.92,"text":"不育女性將近有兩成"},{"start":5222.29,"end":5224.29,"text":"他就是子宮有缺損"},{"start":5224.29,"end":5226.29,"text":"子宮有缺損"},{"start":5226.29,"end":5228.29,"text":"那排除這個"},{"start":5228.29,"end":5230.29,"text":"集團年齡累計大概有一萬多人"},{"start":5230.29,"end":5232.29,"text":"那先帝性子宮像我如此"},{"start":5232.29,"end":5234.29,"text":"發育不全五千個一個人"},{"start":5235.01,"end":5237.01,"text":"大概也有一萬多人"},{"start":5237.01,"end":5241.01,"text":"那我現在先不計男男同志家庭的可求"},{"start":5241.01,"end":5243.01,"text":"男男同志家庭"},{"start":5244.07,"end":5245.07,"text":"反正簡單的說"},{"start":5245.07,"end":5248.07,"text":"黛運是這群人唯一的機會"},{"start":5248.07,"end":5250.07,"text":"那一定要阻斷他們希望"},{"start":5250.07,"end":5252.07,"text":"一定要逼著他們到海外去求助嗎"},{"start":5254.37,"end":5256.37,"text":"麻煩院長回答我"},{"start":5256.37,"end":5260.37,"text":"也不願意看到這樣的方式"},{"start":5260.37,"end":5262.37,"text":"我們應該尊重"},{"start":5262.37,"end":5264.37,"text":"我們尊重每一個生命"},{"start":5264.37,"end":5265.37,"text":"無論他是用什麼方式"},{"start":5265.37,"end":5266.37,"text":"他總是一個生命"},{"start":5266.37,"end":5268.37,"text":"我們也尊重希望擁有自己小孩"},{"start":5268.37,"end":5270.37,"text":"他有一個選擇權"},{"start":5270.37,"end":5272.37,"text":"但這個選擇權要放在當今社會當中"},{"start":5272.37,"end":5274.37,"text":"被法律被道德"},{"start":5274.37,"end":5276.37,"text":"被所有的社會觀念所能接受"},{"start":5276.37,"end":5278.37,"text":"我希望您對這個議題不要擠"},{"start":5278.37,"end":5280.37,"text":"多久以來"},{"start":5280.37,"end":5282.37,"text":"當然您擔任行政院長之後權力更大"},{"start":5282.37,"end":5284.37,"text":"我希望您不要永遠是自私的思考"},{"start":5284.37,"end":5288.37,"text":"我今天很鼓勵告訴你海內外的事情"},{"start":5288.37,"end":5290.37,"text":"我告訴你台灣也出事了"},{"start":5290.37,"end":5292.37,"text":"而且通常你會了解嗎"},{"start":5292.37,"end":5294.37,"text":"你也同意吧"},{"start":5294.37,"end":5296.37,"text":"出事都是冰山立角嗎"},{"start":5296.37,"end":5298.37,"text":"揭發的才算"},{"start":5297.68,"end":5299.68,"text":"不知道的你都不知道"},{"start":5299.68,"end":5301.68,"text":"我知道的會比你多"},{"start":5301.68,"end":5303.68,"text":"我當然也接觸過來自外國代理"},{"start":5303.68,"end":5305.68,"text":"而生的小孩的這個經驗"},{"start":5305.68,"end":5307.68,"text":"我是有的"},{"start":5307.68,"end":5309.68,"text":"我也知道他們尋求這個方式"},{"start":5309.68,"end":5311.68,"text":"你剛剛也同意說去"},{"start":5311.68,"end":5313.68,"text":"譬如說哲偉執政的意見"},{"start":5313.68,"end":5315.68,"text":"或是說當前哲偉執政的意見"},{"start":5315.68,"end":5317.68,"text":"然後我們看看怎麼來做"},{"start":5317.68,"end":5319.68,"text":"要專訪為什麼可以來討論"},{"start":5319.68,"end":5321.68,"text":"你的國家都快完國滅種了"},{"start":5321.68,"end":5323.68,"text":"你不擔心嗎"},{"start":5323.68,"end":5325.68,"text":"我們會努力"},{"start":5325.68,"end":5329.68,"text":"現在時部長可以請回座"},{"start":5329.68,"end":5332.68,"text":"請法務部跟人事行政總處人事長"},{"start":5332.68,"end":5334.68,"text":"我一邊說"},{"start":5334.68,"end":5336.68,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":5336.68,"end":5338.68,"text":"今年來詐騙案爆增"},{"start":5338.68,"end":5340.68,"text":"地檢署114年新售案"},{"start":5340.68,"end":5342.68,"text":"高達82萬件"},{"start":5342.68,"end":5345.68,"text":"比110年成長的將近3成"},{"start":5345.68,"end":5347.68,"text":"法務部的保守估計"},{"start":5347.68,"end":5350.68,"text":"大概還需要2009位"},{"start":5350.68,"end":5352.68,"text":"這是我們所知"},{"start":5352.68,"end":5354.68,"text":"沒問題吧"},{"start":5354.68,"end":5356.68,"text":"法務部"},{"start":5356.68,"end":5358.68,"text":"監索犯人近5年來新爆增1萬多"},{"start":5359.78,"end":5361.78,"text":"爆增1萬多的收容人"},{"start":5361.78,"end":5363.78,"text":"跟這個受刑人"},{"start":5363.78,"end":5365.78,"text":"但是管理員不增"},{"start":5364.98,"end":5366.98,"text":"反檢"},{"start":5366.98,"end":5368.98,"text":"目前一名大概要看守"},{"start":5368.98,"end":5370.98,"text":"多少名受刑人"},{"start":5371.36,"end":5373.36,"text":"部長知道嗎"},{"start":5373.36,"end":5375.36,"text":"我考部長好了不要考院長"},{"start":5375.36,"end":5379.36,"text":"一名監索管理員要看守多少名受刑人"},{"start":5379.36,"end":5383.36,"text":"我們監索管理員在看守我們在時間上比率是很高的"},{"start":5383.36,"end":5385.36,"text":"應該是7"},{"start":5385.36,"end":5387.36,"text":"12名"},{"start":5387.36,"end":5389.36,"text":"謝謝部長"},{"start":5389.36,"end":5391.36,"text":"因為我是從總體的來的"},{"start":5391.36,"end":5393.36,"text":"我覺得署長也許今天他不用出席"},{"start":5393.36,"end":5395.36,"text":"12名"},{"start":5395.36,"end":5397.36,"text":"矯正署直言"},{"start":5397.36,"end":5399.36,"text":"這個都是所知"},{"start":5399.36,"end":5401.36,"text":"他需要3758人"},{"start":5401.36,"end":5403.36,"text":"那近期法務部對監索"},{"start":5403.36,"end":5405.36,"text":"操縮的解放"},{"start":5405.36,"end":5407.36,"text":"當然竟然是大開前後門"},{"start":5407.36,"end":5409.36,"text":"就是輕刑犯都罰錢不要關"},{"start":5409.36,"end":5411.36,"text":"要學習美國的"},{"start":5411.36,"end":5413.36,"text":"有點學習美國的零員購"},{"start":5413.36,"end":5415.36,"text":"這個該委員我們沒有零員過"},{"start":5415.36,"end":5417.36,"text":"我們是"},{"start":5417.36,"end":5419.36,"text":"重刑犯我們是具體求重刑"},{"start":5419.36,"end":5421.36,"text":"這個局面沒有零員過"},{"start":5421.36,"end":5423.36,"text":"沒有零員過政策我們是完全沒有考慮的"},{"start":5423.36,"end":5425.36,"text":"如果正經這樣"},{"start":5425.36,"end":5427.36,"text":"所以委員這個在此要澄清"},{"start":5427.36,"end":5429.36,"text":"如果正經說抓不到詐騙的"},{"start":5429.36,"end":5431.36,"text":"本來就是沒有了"},{"start":5431.36,"end":5433.36,"text":"所以這個零員購這個是媒體那個報告"},{"start":5433.36,"end":5435.36,"text":"根本完全沒有政策完全沒有這回事"},{"start":5435.36,"end":5437.36,"text":"這個治安的破口因為誰都扛不起"},{"start":5437.36,"end":5439.36,"text":"誰都扛不起"},{"start":5439.36,"end":5441.36,"text":"那我再次強調我絕不贊成大開前後門"},{"start":5441.36,"end":5443.36,"text":"也不能走向零員你說沒有是最好的"},{"start":5443.36,"end":5445.36,"text":"我爭取的就是增加"},{"start":5445.36,"end":5447.36,"text":"檢索管理人力我想請問這個"},{"start":5447.36,"end":5449.36,"text":"任市長"},{"start":5449.71,"end":5451.71,"text":"這個司法院法務部"},{"start":5451.71,"end":5453.71,"text":"甲政署是不是多次跟你們溝通過"},{"start":5453.71,"end":5455.71,"text":"他需要增加員額呢"},{"start":5455.71,"end":5457.71,"text":"有或沒有就好了你有重視嗎"},{"start":5457.73,"end":5459.73,"text":"我們很重視"},{"start":5459.73,"end":5461.73,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":5461.73,"end":5463.73,"text":"近十年來我們在這個區塊"},{"start":5463.73,"end":5465.73,"text":"從司法院檢察機關跟甲政署"},{"start":5465.73,"end":5467.73,"text":"我們已經增加了四天"},{"start":5467.73,"end":5469.73,"text":"我有一個重點你們對外宣稱說"},{"start":5469.73,"end":5471.73,"text":"總員額法有第四條第五項"},{"start":5471.73,"end":5473.73,"text":"有彈性調整不用修法"},{"start":5473.73,"end":5475.73,"text":"還說我在公聽會"},{"start":5475.73,"end":5477.73,"text":"他們直接代表這樣講的"},{"start":5477.73,"end":5479.73,"text":"上限還有兩萬多個名額沒用到"},{"start":5479.73,"end":5481.73,"text":"額度沒有用到"},{"start":5481.73,"end":5483.73,"text":"那我想請問一件事"},{"start":5483.73,"end":5485.73,"text":"這個彈性條款"},{"start":5485.25,"end":5487.25,"text":"你們都用過幾次"},{"start":5487.25,"end":5489.25,"text":"總員額法下的第四條第五項"},{"start":5489.25,"end":5491.25,"text":"有一些重大事情突發事情的時候"},{"start":5491.25,"end":5493.25,"text":"其實有一些狀況他是可以做調整的"},{"start":5493.25,"end":5495.25,"text":"你用過幾次你知道嗎"},{"start":5495.25,"end":5497.25,"text":"調整這個條款你用過幾次"},{"start":5498.95,"end":5500.95,"text":"委員報告"},{"start":5500.95,"end":5502.95,"text":"上次是在108年的時候"},{"start":5502.95,"end":5504.95,"text":"總要求證"},{"start":5504.95,"end":5506.95,"text":"我直接告訴你"},{"start":5506.95,"end":5508.95,"text":"我直接告訴你"},{"start":5508.95,"end":5510.95,"text":"公聽會一次都沒有啦"},{"start":5510.95,"end":5512.95,"text":"你太硬規啦"},{"start":5514.39,"end":5516.39,"text":"今天還沒有到那個高線"},{"start":5518.59,"end":5520.59,"text":"沒有高線條"},{"start":5520.59,"end":5522.59,"text":"基層申請這個爭奪"},{"start":5522.59,"end":5524.59,"text":"四處崩壁啊"},{"start":5524.59,"end":5526.59,"text":"你們有彈性這個"},{"start":5526.59,"end":5528.59,"text":"第四條第五項"},{"start":5528.59,"end":5530.59,"text":"那個是一個彈性可以處理"},{"start":5530.59,"end":5532.59,"text":"請問法務部長那個"},{"start":5532.59,"end":5534.59,"text":"你同意嗎"},{"start":5534.59,"end":5536.59,"text":"就是說現在沒有這個問題"},{"start":5536.59,"end":5538.59,"text":"好都不用你們申請原額也沒有問題"},{"start":5538.59,"end":5540.59,"text":"我們希望是增加原額"},{"start":5540.59,"end":5542.59,"text":"我們也是持續黑棍人種"},{"start":5542.59,"end":5544.59,"text":"來討論那個預算原額"},{"start":5544.59,"end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原本是要收容"},{"start":5749.91,"end":5751.91,"text":"港區蘇峻海沙的台中港"},{"start":5751.91,"end":5753.91,"text":"現在變成要去承擔"},{"start":5753.83,"end":5756.83,"text":"上千萬立方公尺的營建剩餘土石方"},{"start":5756.83,"end":5758.83,"text":"還有上百萬立方公尺的"},{"start":5758.83,"end":5760.83,"text":"所謂再生力量"},{"start":5760.83,"end":5761.83,"text":"我先請問這個"},{"start":5761.83,"end":5763.83,"text":"彭部長沒上來喔"},{"start":5763.83,"end":5765.83,"text":"我剛剛有請你上來耶"},{"start":5766.99,"end":5768.99,"text":"麻煩請彭部長"},{"start":5768.99,"end":5769.99,"text":"部長您一邊聽好嗎"},{"start":5769.99,"end":5770.99,"text":"因為您聽得懂"},{"start":5770.99,"end":5772.99,"text":"這塊地已經被海委會"},{"start":5773.49,"end":5775.49,"text":"公告為白海豚重要棲地"},{"start":5775.49,"end":5777.49,"text":"那台中港既然要變更用途啊"},{"start":5778.81,"end":5780.81,"text":"那為什麼不用走環評"},{"start":5780.81,"end":5781.81,"text":"部長回答"},{"start":5781.81,"end":5782.81,"text":"為什麼用或不用"},{"start":5782.81,"end":5783.81,"text":"第一個喔"},{"start":5783.81,"end":5784.81,"text":"我們非常重視白海豚"},{"start":5784.81,"end":5786.81,"text":"我們不會去破壞"},{"start":5786.81,"end":5788.81,"text":"我們要避免白海豚受到各種傷害"},{"start":5788.81,"end":5789.81,"text":"就是那塊地啊"},{"start":5789.81,"end":5791.81,"text":"對 但是這個事情是"},{"start":5791.81,"end":5794.81,"text":"因為我們環評是雙木地主管機關"},{"start":5794.81,"end":5796.81,"text":"所以在民國111年的時候"},{"start":5796.81,"end":5798.81,"text":"我們有請交通部來認定"},{"start":5798.81,"end":5799.81,"text":"這塊要不要環評"},{"start":5799.81,"end":5803.81,"text":"因為它外面有一塊凸出去的皮"},{"start":5803.81,"end":5805.81,"text":"按照目前的法規認定"},{"start":5805.81,"end":5806.81,"text":"它是不需要環評的"},{"start":5807.22,"end":5808.22,"text":"不需要環評"},{"start":5808.22,"end":5809.22,"text":"那個圖麻煩這個部長"},{"start":5809.22,"end":5810.22,"text":"你要親自看一下"},{"start":5810.22,"end":5811.22,"text":"因為每次開這個公園"},{"start":5811.22,"end":5813.22,"text":"當然也沒辦法請動"},{"start":5813.22,"end":5814.22,"text":"您這位大部長來看"},{"start":5815.36,"end":5816.36,"text":"我先問喔"},{"start":5816.36,"end":5818.36,"text":"高雄港填方區工程計畫"},{"start":5818.36,"end":5819.36,"text":"要進入二階環評"},{"start":5819.36,"end":5820.36,"text":"為什麼台中港就不需要"},{"start":5820.36,"end":5822.36,"text":"那個目前還沒有送進來"},{"start":5822.36,"end":5824.36,"text":"因為它的另外一個範圍的問題"},{"start":5824.36,"end":5826.36,"text":"然後還有要請交通部"},{"start":5826.36,"end":5827.36,"text":"他們來認定這個港"},{"start":5827.36,"end":5828.36,"text":"是不是需要環評"},{"start":5828.36,"end":5829.36,"text":"因為這個在法規裡面"},{"start":5829.36,"end":5831.36,"text":"主委您要放在心上喔"},{"start":5831.36,"end":5836.36,"text":"那個保育是你們很重要的責任喔"},{"start":5836.36,"end":5837.36,"text":"目前推動的喔"},{"start":5837.36,"end":5838.36,"text":"彭部長"},{"start":5838.36,"end":5840.36,"text":"南填方區工程經費高達104億"},{"start":5840.36,"end":5843.36,"text":"那事實上就是111的商港計畫"},{"start":5843.36,"end":5845.36,"text":"我主持過好幾次記者會喔"},{"start":5845.36,"end":5846.36,"text":"可能五次以上喔"},{"start":5846.36,"end":5848.36,"text":"行政機關又說這是106的"},{"start":5848.36,"end":5850.36,"text":"商港計畫的既有開放"},{"start":5850.36,"end":5852.36,"text":"我想請問交通部陳部長"},{"start":5852.36,"end":5854.36,"text":"不好意思陳部長您出席嗎"},{"start":5854.36,"end":5855.36,"text":"陳部長請備行"},{"start":5855.36,"end":5856.36,"text":"再聽一下"},{"start":5856.36,"end":5857.36,"text":"我走這邊"},{"start":5857.36,"end":5858.36,"text":"好"},{"start":5858.36,"end":5859.36,"text":"不行喔"},{"start":5860.6,"end":5861.6,"text":"這個說法"},{"start":5863.77,"end":5865.77,"text":"行政機關應說這是106的"},{"start":5865.77,"end":5866.77,"text":"商港計畫"},{"start":5866.77,"end":5868.77,"text":"那請問你們的28億"},{"start":5870.25,"end":5873.25,"text":"預算如何包含104億的工程"},{"start":5873.25,"end":5874.25,"text":"而且"},{"start":5874.66,"end":5875.66,"text":"這個真的是"},{"start":5875.66,"end":5877.66,"text":"拿A計畫A開發計畫來"},{"start":5877.66,"end":5878.66,"text":"講B開發計畫"},{"start":5878.66,"end":5880.66,"text":"想要護航說不要"},{"start":5880.66,"end":5882.66,"text":"這個大填海計畫不用環評"},{"start":5882.66,"end":5883.66,"text":"那這個"},{"start":5883.66,"end":5884.66,"text":"我要告訴這個"},{"start":5884.66,"end":5885.66,"text":"那個院長"},{"start":5885.66,"end":5887.66,"text":"這個海委會是在2020年"},{"start":5887.66,"end":5889.66,"text":"8月3日公告為"},{"start":5889.66,"end":5890.66,"text":"白海豚重要基地喔"},{"start":5890.66,"end":5892.66,"text":"你公布啦海委會公布"},{"start":5892.66,"end":5894.66,"text":"那行政院是9月之後"},{"start":5894.66,"end":5895.66,"text":"9月2日才核定"},{"start":5895.66,"end":5897.66,"text":"備查106的"},{"start":5897.66,"end":5898.66,"text":"香港第三次修正計畫"},{"start":5898.66,"end":5900.66,"text":"那根據香港法條"},{"start":5900.66,"end":5901.66,"text":"就是開發行為應時事環評"},{"start":5901.66,"end":5903.66,"text":"等於計畫認定等等"},{"start":5903.66,"end":5904.66,"text":"標準第三條"},{"start":5905.27,"end":5907.27,"text":"重要基地就要進行環評"},{"start":5907.27,"end":5908.27,"text":"請問卓院長"},{"start":5908.27,"end":5910.27,"text":"現在連基本的這個法定程序"},{"start":5910.27,"end":5912.27,"text":"都不需要遵守嗎"},{"start":5912.27,"end":5914.27,"text":"那海委會你還把主管機關"},{"start":5914.27,"end":5915.27,"text":"推給台東市政府"},{"start":5915.27,"end":5916.27,"text":"這樣對嗎"},{"start":5917.91,"end":5918.91,"text":"報告委員喔"},{"start":5918.91,"end":5920.91,"text":"白海豚的保育啊"},{"start":5920.91,"end":5922.91,"text":"政府會請全力來保育白海豚"},{"start":5922.91,"end":5924.91,"text":"這個無庸置疑"},{"start":5924.91,"end":5926.91,"text":"至於台中港為了解決這個"},{"start":5926.91,"end":5928.91,"text":"建築土石方的問題"},{"start":5928.91,"end":5930.91,"text":"它原來的填土方"},{"start":5931.78,"end":5933.78,"text":"增加讓各種公民營的"},{"start":5933.78,"end":5935.78,"text":"這個案件可以進去"},{"start":5935.78,"end":5936.78,"text":"我覺得我剛剛講的"},{"start":5936.78,"end":5937.78,"text":"也蠻具體的喔"},{"start":5937.78,"end":5939.78,"text":"但是它並不動到這個環評的程序"},{"start":5939.78,"end":5941.78,"text":"除非它要做一個大的海堤"},{"start":5941.78,"end":5943.78,"text":"那個海堤的環評是另外一回事"},{"start":5943.78,"end":5945.78,"text":"我今天沒有辦法把細節給你"},{"start":5945.78,"end":5947.78,"text":"因為很多事情你不會"},{"start":5947.78,"end":5949.78,"text":"寧願在你高高在雲動"},{"start":5949.78,"end":5951.78,"text":"我都去過台中港看過"},{"start":5951.78,"end":5952.78,"text":"我也了解這個程序"},{"start":5952.78,"end":5955.78,"text":"那目前我們在以保育為優先的"},{"start":5955.78,"end":5957.78,"text":"狀況底下來處理這個事情"},{"start":5957.78,"end":5958.78,"text":"要求做環評"},{"start":5958.78,"end":5960.78,"text":"那野生動物在重要基地審查"},{"start":5960.78,"end":5962.78,"text":"這兩個審查"},{"start":5962.78,"end":5964.78,"text":"院長您可以買單嗎"},{"start":5965.46,"end":5966.46,"text":"我是萬人座環評"},{"start":5966.46,"end":5968.46,"text":"加上野生動物"},{"start":5968.46,"end":5969.46,"text":"重要基地審查"},{"start":5970.17,"end":5972.17,"text":"野生動物的保育一直是政府"},{"start":5972.17,"end":5974.17,"text":"跟人民一直努力在做的"},{"start":5974.17,"end":5976.17,"text":"沒有錯我們願意做啊"},{"start":5976.17,"end":5978.17,"text":"我才會提出願意可以嗎"},{"start":5978.32,"end":5981.32,"text":"白海豚我們會用保育富裕的方式"},{"start":5981.32,"end":5982.32,"text":"來維護他的生態"},{"start":5982.32,"end":5984.32,"text":"現在在這裡的彭部長"},{"start":5985.17,"end":5987.17,"text":"不在這個要做環評啊"},{"start":5987.17,"end":5989.17,"text":"還有野生動物重要基地審查"},{"start":5989.17,"end":5994.17,"text":"院長您就是同意可以做嗎"},{"start":5994.17,"end":5996.17,"text":"當然我說白海豚的保育富裕的工作"},{"start":5996.17,"end":5998.17,"text":"政府會把它列為優先來說"},{"start":5998.17,"end":6001.17,"text":"這兩件事可以來cover"},{"start":6001.17,"end":6002.17,"text":"你所謂保護白海豚"},{"start":6002.17,"end":6003.17,"text":"是"},{"start":6003.17,"end":6004.17,"text":"這個一級保育類的東西"},{"start":6004.17,"end":6006.17,"text":"台灣難得如此"},{"start":6006.17,"end":6008.17,"text":"好那現在"},{"start":6010.12,"end":6013.12,"text":"這兩件事環評加造自動物保育審查"},{"start":6013.12,"end":6017.12,"text":"我們有很多相關的計畫都已經在執行當中了"},{"start":6017.12,"end":6018.12,"text":"院長就是出問題啦"},{"start":6018.12,"end":6020.12,"text":"我比你比較關鍵"},{"start":6020.12,"end":6021.12,"text":"現在我們既然要"},{"start":6021.12,"end":6022.12,"text":"您在林端啦"},{"start":6022.12,"end":6023.12,"text":"沒有沒有"},{"start":6023.12,"end":6026.12,"text":"我們既然要讓台中港的功能能夠增加"},{"start":6026.12,"end":6028.12,"text":"填海造作計畫能夠完成"},{"start":6028.12,"end":6032.12,"text":"就必須去面對這些環評生態的問題"},{"start":6032.12,"end":6033.12,"text":"該做的事還是做嘛"},{"start":6033.12,"end":6035.12,"text":"好謝謝兩位"},{"start":6035.12,"end":6037.12,"text":"我再請經濟部公部長"},{"start":6037.12,"end":6038.12,"text":"公部長"},{"start":6038.12,"end":6040.12,"text":"國民新部長"},{"start":6040.12,"end":6041.12,"text":"我們請經濟部長備詢"},{"start":6045.85,"end":6046.85,"text":"部長"},{"start":6046.85,"end":6052.85,"text":"中游三街已經被最高行政法院撤銷開發面積95.4公頃了"},{"start":6052.85,"end":6053.85,"text":"為什麼沒有停工"},{"start":6055.22,"end":6057.22,"text":"報委員那個只是第一個階段"},{"start":6057.22,"end":6059.22,"text":"而且是後面還有兩"},{"start":6060.47,"end":6064.47,"text":"後面事實上後面的這個報的院還有這個程序上來講"},{"start":6064.47,"end":6066.47,"text":"已經把前面包起來了"},{"start":6066.47,"end":6068.47,"text":"所以後面的這個是程序還在處理"},{"start":6068.47,"end":6069.47,"text":"你講的話"},{"start":6069.47,"end":6072.47,"text":"我也不知道如果全國人在聽誰聽得懂"},{"start":6072.47,"end":6075.47,"text":"經濟部不是要重做一個新的行政處分嗎"},{"start":6075.47,"end":6076.47,"text":"我的了解是這樣啊"},{"start":6076.47,"end":6080.47,"text":"還是說你覺得法院最高行政法院他的判決根本不用理呢"},{"start":6080.47,"end":6081.47,"text":"不是"},{"start":6081.47,"end":6082.47,"text":"因為他是有分階段的"},{"start":6082.47,"end":6086.47,"text":"第一階段他只有做一個比較小的一個入檔"},{"start":6086.47,"end":6089.47,"text":"那那個入檔當然行政上程序上來講"},{"start":6089.47,"end":6091.47,"text":"最高法院有點意見"},{"start":6091.47,"end":6096.47,"text":"但是後面的後面報過去的這個部分已經把這個部分cover進來"},{"start":6096.47,"end":6101.47,"text":"你可不可以先停止利用那個判決設定判決設施確定部分那個海岸"},{"start":6101.47,"end":6104.47,"text":"就判決確定的部分先停止利用他嗎"},{"start":6104.47,"end":6106.47,"text":"那事實上那個部分"},{"start":6106.47,"end":6108.47,"text":"事實上那個部分"},{"start":6108.47,"end":6110.47,"text":"我們現在製作的部分也沒有那個部分"},{"start":6110.47,"end":6112.47,"text":"沒有用到那個部分"},{"start":6112.47,"end":6115.47,"text":"所以其他的部分還是在持續進行當中"},{"start":6115.47,"end":6116.47,"text":"那你也可以下令停工啊"},{"start":6116.47,"end":6120.47,"text":"不然他已經公告這個最高行政法院已經公告這個命令"},{"start":6120.47,"end":6121.47,"text":"但我們看不到任何動作啊"},{"start":6121.47,"end":6123.47,"text":"那你想人民怎麼想"},{"start":6123.47,"end":6124.47,"text":"沒有沒有"},{"start":6124.47,"end":6127.47,"text":"我們在為了這個行政機關的民意代表我們怎麼想"},{"start":6127.95,"end":6131.95,"text":"沒有我們還是依這個當初核定的部分來進行"},{"start":6131.95,"end":6135.95,"text":"你的意思是說你會尊重最高行政法院的裁定"},{"start":6135.95,"end":6136.95,"text":"不是"},{"start":6136.95,"end":6139.95,"text":"最高行政法院的判決的那個範圍"},{"start":6149.33,"end":6150.33,"text":"對時間到"},{"start":6151.02,"end":6152.02,"text":"我知道你"},{"start":6152.96,"end":6154.96,"text":"謝謝謝謝陳委員謝謝陳昭政委員"},{"start":6154.96,"end":6156.96,"text":"謝謝主任院長各相關部會首長備詢謝謝"},{"start":6166.11,"end":6170.11,"text":"好接下來我們請范雲委員質詢傅崑錫委請準備"},{"start":6176.74,"end":6178.74,"text":"謝謝韓院長"},{"start":6178.74,"end":6179.74,"text":"有請卓院長"},{"start":6180.45,"end":6181.45,"text":"麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":6193.56,"end":6194.56,"text":"范委員好"},{"start":6194.56,"end":6195.56,"text":"卓院長好"},{"start":6195.56,"end":6197.56,"text":"我想先請問卓院長"},{"start":6197.56,"end":6202.56,"text":"從我們上次8月底這個上個會期的會議結束到現在"},{"start":6202.56,"end":6205.56,"text":"那您最近工作情況還好嗎"},{"start":6206.35,"end":6207.35,"text":"一如往常"},{"start":6207.35,"end":6209.35,"text":"一如往常沒有休假在家"},{"start":6209.35,"end":6212.35,"text":"而且各種國際的變化跟國內的形式一直有變化"},{"start":6212.35,"end":6215.35,"text":"所以我們還是有接續不斷的會議再開"},{"start":6215.35,"end":6217.35,"text":"再面對解決各種不同的問題"},{"start":6217.35,"end":6219.35,"text":"所以您並沒有休假在家"},{"start":6221,"end":6222,"text":"沒有"},{"start":6222,"end":6223,"text":"沒有都在工作"},{"start":6223,"end":6224,"text":"連假日都很少"},{"start":6224,"end":6227,"text":"那所以今天是10月2號"},{"start":6227,"end":6231,"text":"我想請問卓院長您上個月的薪水入帳了嗎"},{"start":6232.51,"end":6233.51,"text":"我還沒有領"},{"start":6233.51,"end":6234.51,"text":"沒有領"},{"start":6234.9,"end":6239.9,"text":"那我覺得這是個很嚴重嚴肅的問題"},{"start":6239.9,"end":6241.9,"text":"所以非常的希望跟卓院長討論"},{"start":6241.9,"end":6242.9,"text":"我們都知道"},{"start":6242.9,"end":6244.9,"text":"上個月上個會期"},{"start":6244.9,"end":6246.9,"text":"由翁曉玲委員的提案"},{"start":6246.9,"end":6249.9,"text":"李承鄭提案馬找出來看"},{"start":6249.9,"end":6252.9,"text":"他指責行政院長不適任的隔奎"},{"start":6252.9,"end":6255.9,"text":"所以提案凍結行政院長"},{"start":6256.84,"end":6259.84,"text":"115年9月到12月的薪資"},{"start":6259.84,"end":6262.84,"text":"投票結果贊成的59人"},{"start":6262.84,"end":6265.84,"text":"我們民進黨51位立委都反對"},{"start":6265.84,"end":6267.84,"text":"那這個案子通過之後呢"},{"start":6267.84,"end":6269.84,"text":"我自己也去做了一個研究"},{"start":6269.84,"end":6272.84,"text":"那我知道總統已經有批示"},{"start":6272.84,"end":6275.84,"text":"覺得這樣子非常的不能接受違法違憲"},{"start":6275.84,"end":6276.84,"text":"那我自己喔"},{"start":6276.84,"end":6279.84,"text":"秉著研究的精神去看了一下"},{"start":6279.84,"end":6282.84,"text":"到底立法院能不能因為政治立場不同"},{"start":6282.84,"end":6285.84,"text":"決定一位依法任職的行政首長"},{"start":6285.84,"end":6287.84,"text":"幾個月不能領薪水"},{"start":6287.84,"end":6288.84,"text":"我們看了一下"},{"start":6288.84,"end":6291.84,"text":"其實預算法52條就有說"},{"start":6291.84,"end":6294.84,"text":"立法院通過預算的附加條件如果違法"},{"start":6296.55,"end":6298.55,"text":"這個條件就失效"},{"start":6298.55,"end":6300.55,"text":"這是預算法52條"},{"start":6300.55,"end":6303.55,"text":"如果附加條件違法該條件失效"},{"start":6304.09,"end":6307.09,"text":"憲法54條跟行政院組織法第10條"},{"start":6307.09,"end":6310.09,"text":"都有很清楚說行政院長"},{"start":6310.09,"end":6315.09,"text":"就是憲法跟相關法律保障的法定職位"},{"start":6315.09,"end":6318.09,"text":"所以您的薪水就是預算法的法定預算嗎"},{"start":6318.09,"end":6319.09,"text":"這沒錯吧"},{"start":6319.09,"end":6321.09,"text":"那我們再來看"},{"start":6321.09,"end":6323.09,"text":"過去國會有沒有發生類似的事"},{"start":6323.09,"end":6326.09,"text":"行政院長這真的是第一次"},{"start":6326.09,"end":6330.09,"text":"可是在過去陳水扁總統"},{"start":6330.09,"end":6333.09,"text":"擔任總統的朝小野大的時候"},{"start":6333.09,"end":6334.09,"text":"有類似的是"},{"start":6334.09,"end":6338.09,"text":"2005年曾經發生立法院刪除大法官的"},{"start":6338.09,"end":6341.09,"text":"司法專業加給的預算"},{"start":6341.09,"end":6346.09,"text":"後來釋字61號的解釋被判定違憲"},{"start":6346.09,"end":6349.09,"text":"那我想這三個法跟憲法跟釋字的"},{"start":6349.09,"end":6352.09,"text":"601號解釋應該"},{"start":6352.09,"end":6354.09,"text":"這個社會很多人不知道"},{"start":6354.09,"end":6356.09,"text":"那但是院長應該很清楚"},{"start":6356.09,"end":6358.09,"text":"所以我今天想跟院長討論"},{"start":6358.09,"end":6361.09,"text":"我覺得您的薪水不是個人問題了"},{"start":6361.09,"end":6363.09,"text":"因為今天他代表立法院"},{"start":6363.09,"end":6365.09,"text":"可不可以用預算決議"},{"start":6365.09,"end":6369.09,"text":"停止依法任職的政務人員薪資的問題"},{"start":6369.09,"end":6372.09,"text":"他也對未來的國會有示範作用"},{"start":6372.09,"end":6376.09,"text":"我們今天是因為憲法法庭也被癱瘓了"},{"start":6376.09,"end":6377.09,"text":"所以沒有辦法"},{"start":6377.09,"end":6379.09,"text":"如同2005年有這個釋憲文"},{"start":6379.09,"end":6381.09,"text":"但是他的精神應該要被遵守"},{"start":6381.09,"end":6383.09,"text":"不知道院長您是不是同意"},{"start":6384.81,"end":6387.81,"text":"陳盧委員剛剛所引用的相當多的條文"},{"start":6387.81,"end":6389.81,"text":"包括憲法54條"},{"start":6389.81,"end":6392.81,"text":"以及行政院組織法第四條等等"},{"start":6392.81,"end":6393.81,"text":"這都是"},{"start":6394.07,"end":6396.07,"text":"談到政務人員的待遇"},{"start":6396.35,"end":6399.35,"text":"有依照政務人員局表他所呈現的內容"},{"start":6399.35,"end":6401.35,"text":"它都是一個法定的"},{"start":6401.35,"end":6403.35,"text":"法定的一個經費"},{"start":6403.35,"end":6404.35,"text":"是不可以"},{"start":6405.12,"end":6407.12,"text":"刪除凍結的"},{"start":6407.12,"end":6409.12,"text":"如果今天行政院長可以"},{"start":6409.12,"end":6411.12,"text":"部長也可以"},{"start":6411.12,"end":6413.12,"text":"如果中央可以"},{"start":6413.12,"end":6414.12,"text":"未來地方也可以"},{"start":6414.12,"end":6415.12,"text":"那全國只要"},{"start":6416.28,"end":6418.28,"text":"行政部門跟議會部門不同"},{"start":6418.28,"end":6420.28,"text":"都可能發生這個事情"},{"start":6420.28,"end":6422.28,"text":"所以這個是嚴格限制在內的"},{"start":6422.28,"end":6426.28,"text":"所以透過年度預算的這個法定經費"},{"start":6427.53,"end":6431.53,"text":"來凍結是想用凍結來影響來改變"},{"start":6431.53,"end":6434.53,"text":"甚至來拘束行政機關的各種行為"},{"start":6434.53,"end":6436.53,"text":"這絕對是依法不拒"},{"start":6436.53,"end":6437.53,"text":"所以當"},{"start":6438.72,"end":6440.72,"text":"通過這樣的一個案子的時候"},{"start":6440.72,"end":6441.72,"text":"附帶的條件"},{"start":6441.72,"end":6444.72,"text":"又是希望我們把不附屬的這些法律案"},{"start":6444.72,"end":6446.72,"text":"能夠讓它成為生效"},{"start":6446.72,"end":6449.72,"text":"但這個又違背了憲法總統時日公布"},{"start":6449.72,"end":6450.72,"text":"法律的這樣的期限"},{"start":6450.72,"end":6451.72,"text":"已經不可能了"},{"start":6451.72,"end":6455.72,"text":"所以對一個致死不可能成就的條件"},{"start":6455.72,"end":6457.72,"text":"來加以附加條件"},{"start":6457.72,"end":6459.72,"text":"視為這個條件致死都"},{"start":6461.15,"end":6464.15,"text":"所以這樣的行為也沒有辦法拘束到"},{"start":6464.15,"end":6465.15,"text":"是不是該領"},{"start":6465.15,"end":6467.15,"text":"但為什麼我到現在沒有去領"},{"start":6467.15,"end":6468.15,"text":"我是想今天在這裡"},{"start":6468.15,"end":6470.15,"text":"讓我跟韓院長來比較一下"},{"start":6470.15,"end":6472.15,"text":"韓院長高高坐在上面"},{"start":6472.15,"end":6473.15,"text":"我站在這裡"},{"start":6473.15,"end":6475.15,"text":"這是因為有薪水的院長"},{"start":6475.15,"end":6477.15,"text":"我是因為沒有領薪水的院長"},{"start":6477.15,"end":6478.15,"text":"讓國人看一下"},{"start":6478.15,"end":6482.15,"text":"但是基於維護所有公務人員的尊嚴"},{"start":6482.15,"end":6485.15,"text":"跟工作必要的以及生活必要的"},{"start":6485.15,"end":6488.15,"text":"我不會放棄這種法定的權利"},{"start":6488.15,"end":6490.15,"text":"我今天要向委員說"},{"start":6490.15,"end":6492.15,"text":"我也謝謝很多的委員是"},{"start":6492.15,"end":6494.15,"text":"站在法的立場"},{"start":6494.15,"end":6496.15,"text":"沒有去贊成這個案子的"},{"start":6496.15,"end":6499.15,"text":"但是我要跟所有法去支持"},{"start":6499.15,"end":6503.15,"text":"凍結三減政務人員預算的所有委員說"},{"start":6503.15,"end":6506.15,"text":"你們這樣的方式會讓整個"},{"start":6506.27,"end":6509.27,"text":"府會之間中央地方的府會之間"},{"start":6509.27,"end":6511.27,"text":"都造成相當大的困擾"},{"start":6511.27,"end":6513.27,"text":"此例絕不可開"},{"start":6513.27,"end":6516.27,"text":"我也不會用開這個例來讓這個行為"},{"start":6516.27,"end":6519.27,"text":"變成它是一個成就不法的狀態"},{"start":6519.27,"end":6523.27,"text":"所以依法領薪水是人民的俸祿"},{"start":6523.27,"end":6525.27,"text":"我們接受人民的俸祿"},{"start":6525.27,"end":6527.27,"text":"依法做公務的工作"},{"start":6527.27,"end":6531.27,"text":"這是責任跟權利相當的平衡的一個工作"},{"start":6531.27,"end":6534.27,"text":"好謝謝院長您這樣講我就放心了"},{"start":6534.27,"end":6537.27,"text":"因為我真的就如同剛剛卓院長說的"},{"start":6537.27,"end":6540.27,"text":"如果今天國會可以對行政院長這麼做"},{"start":6541.69,"end":6544.69,"text":"那未來各級議會就有可能也用同樣的方式"},{"start":6544.69,"end":6547.69,"text":"對待不同政治立場的政務人員"},{"start":6547.69,"end":6549.69,"text":"那我想這會是一個"},{"start":6549.69,"end":6555.69,"text":"就是讓政治杯葛凌駕憲政跟法律界限的惡例"},{"start":6555.69,"end":6558.69,"text":"所以真的不是卓院長個人薪水的問題"},{"start":6558.69,"end":6562.69,"text":"它是一個守護憲政跟法律的界限的議題"},{"start":6562.69,"end":6566.69,"text":"那我相信韓院長在這邊應該也會認同這句話"},{"start":6566.69,"end":6570.69,"text":"政治杯葛不應凌駕憲政跟法律的界限"},{"start":6570.69,"end":6575.69,"text":"那謝謝卓院長就是守護憲政跟法律的界限"},{"start":6575.69,"end":6576.69,"text":"這是應該要做的"},{"start":6576.69,"end":6581.69,"text":"所以我說守護憲法是每一個國人應該有的義務跟責任"},{"start":6581.69,"end":6582.69,"text":"而不是哪一個人"},{"start":6582.69,"end":6586.69,"text":"也不是任何一個人可以去破壞憲法的規定跟憲法的精神"},{"start":6586.69,"end":6590.69,"text":"好謝謝卓院長一起守護這條界限"},{"start":6590.69,"end":6592.69,"text":"那我今天第二題呢"},{"start":6592.69,"end":6596.69,"text":"想跟院長請教另外一個也覺得很重要的問題"},{"start":6596.69,"end":6598.69,"text":"幫我們公民團體詢問"},{"start":6598.69,"end":6601.69,"text":"這個禮拜二晚上就是我們的開日"},{"start":6601.69,"end":6605.69,"text":"精明聯等40個公民團體發起一個遊行"},{"start":6605.69,"end":6608.69,"text":"那他們只請113位立委"},{"start":6608.69,"end":6611.69,"text":"那謝謝他們邀請我去報告一件事"},{"start":6611.69,"end":6615.69,"text":"就是這一次總預算當追加的預算當中"},{"start":6615.69,"end":6618.69,"text":"有多少社會福利的加碼"},{"start":6618.69,"end":6624.69,"text":"那當天他們很關心說總預算延宕了審查351天"},{"start":6624.69,"end":6627.69,"text":"如果繼續延宕會發生什麼事"},{"start":6627.69,"end":6631.69,"text":"很多人其實包含當天在場的公民團體都不知道"},{"start":6631.69,"end":6633.69,"text":"就是行政院的追加預算"},{"start":6633.69,"end":6639.69,"text":"這裡面包含八大社會福利跟生活補助"},{"start":6639.69,"end":6644.69,"text":"那因為媒體聚焦的可能是中油台電的這些補助"},{"start":6644.69,"end":6646.69,"text":"那我想特別在這邊講一下"},{"start":6646.69,"end":6651.69,"text":"老農今天是從原本8110元增加到1萬"},{"start":6651.69,"end":6654.69,"text":"國民年金從4049到5000"},{"start":6654.69,"end":6657.69,"text":"這裡面有很多是家庭主婦"},{"start":6657.69,"end":6660.69,"text":"那老農也是相對來講國家應該守護的"},{"start":6660.69,"end":6664.69,"text":"還有六大社福包含中低收老人"},{"start":6664.69,"end":6665.69,"text":"弱勢兒少"},{"start":6665.69,"end":6666.69,"text":"低收家庭"},{"start":6666.69,"end":6667.69,"text":"低收入戶"},{"start":6667.69,"end":6668.69,"text":"兒童就學"},{"start":6668.69,"end":6670.69,"text":"還有身障者的生活補助"},{"start":6670.69,"end":6671.69,"text":"全面調整"},{"start":6671.69,"end":6673.69,"text":"接近四分之一"},{"start":6673.69,"end":6677.69,"text":"那還有特別不是一般的福利軍公教人員的待遇"},{"start":6677.69,"end":6679.69,"text":"包含基層同仁"},{"start":6679.69,"end":6682.69,"text":"新增2000塊的職務加給"},{"start":6682.69,"end":6685.69,"text":"然後通案調增4%"},{"start":6685.69,"end":6689.69,"text":"這個有72萬的軍公教也會受益"},{"start":6689.69,"end":6691.69,"text":"那這個部分我當天有跟大家報告"},{"start":6691.69,"end":6692.69,"text":"那我想"},{"start":6693.9,"end":6694.9,"text":"請問院長"},{"start":6694.9,"end":6695.9,"text":"我剛剛講的這個"},{"start":6695.9,"end":6699.9,"text":"已經送到立法院的這個追加的這個預算"},{"start":6699.9,"end":6705.9,"text":"裡面包含318萬弱勢跟72萬的軍公教"},{"start":6705.9,"end":6708.9,"text":"那最快大家什麼時候可以拿到"},{"start":6708.9,"end":6710.9,"text":"如果立法院預算又延宕"},{"start":6710.9,"end":6711.9,"text":"會有什麼影響"},{"start":6711.9,"end":6713.9,"text":"今天有一些媒體有一個標題"},{"start":6713.9,"end":6716.9,"text":"他說如果追加預算沒有過"},{"start":6717.85,"end":6718.85,"text":"那行政院就不發"},{"start":6720.06,"end":6722.06,"text":"其實這樣的標題是錯誤的"},{"start":6722.06,"end":6724.06,"text":"行政院如果追加預算沒有過"},{"start":6724.06,"end":6726.06,"text":"行政院非不為也"},{"start":6726.06,"end":6727.06,"text":"是不能也"},{"start":6727.06,"end":6729.06,"text":"因為就沒有預算可以去執行"},{"start":6729.06,"end":6731.06,"text":"所以我們希望"},{"start":6731.06,"end":6732.06,"text":"那如果拖到明年呢"},{"start":6732.06,"end":6734.06,"text":"像總預算拖300萬"},{"start":6734.06,"end":6737.06,"text":"這是115年度的總預算的追加預算"},{"start":6737.06,"end":6740.06,"text":"一定要在115年可以去執行"},{"start":6740.06,"end":6742.06,"text":"去開始執行"},{"start":6742.06,"end":6744.06,"text":"它才有這個時效性"},{"start":6744.06,"end":6746.06,"text":"那明年就到明年116年去了"},{"start":6746.06,"end":6747.06,"text":"所以我們期待"},{"start":6748.02,"end":6751.02,"text":"大院能夠加速來審議這個追加預算"},{"start":6751.02,"end":6754.02,"text":"那個11月底如果能夠通過"},{"start":6754.69,"end":6757.69,"text":"那我們才有時間來進行後續的作業"},{"start":6757.69,"end":6759.69,"text":"況且我們如果看這次"},{"start":6759.69,"end":6760.69,"text":"今年的中央政府總預算"},{"start":6761.13,"end":6762.13,"text":"8月14號"},{"start":6762.91,"end":6763.91,"text":"三讀通過"},{"start":6764.37,"end":6767.37,"text":"一直到9月18號才送到"},{"start":6767.83,"end":6768.83,"text":"總統府去"},{"start":6769.27,"end":6771.27,"text":"讓總統府去公布"},{"start":6771.83,"end":6774.83,"text":"三讀到送到總統府差了將近一個月"},{"start":6774.83,"end":6776.83,"text":"那如果11月底通過"},{"start":6778.08,"end":6780.08,"text":"那立法院還有時間慢慢就算了"},{"start":6780.61,"end":6782.61,"text":"但是如果沒有留給行政機關"},{"start":6782.61,"end":6784.61,"text":"好好的去做後續工作的話"},{"start":6784.61,"end":6786.61,"text":"那這個是無法執行的"},{"start":6786.61,"end":6788.61,"text":"所以我們期待11月底要完成"},{"start":6788.61,"end":6790.61,"text":"中央政府今年度的"},{"start":6790.61,"end":6792.61,"text":"追加預算的審議工作"},{"start":6792.61,"end":6794.61,"text":"那我這樣講不知道對不對"},{"start":6794.61,"end":6796.61,"text":"這個福利加起來的話"},{"start":6796.61,"end":6798.61,"text":"或者軍公教這個"},{"start":6798.61,"end":6800.61,"text":"事實上可能會超過1萬元"},{"start":6800.61,"end":6801.61,"text":"是數字不少"},{"start":6801.61,"end":6803.61,"text":"因為是從7月到年底嘛"},{"start":6803.61,"end":6804.61,"text":"對"},{"start":6804.61,"end":6806.61,"text":"那這樣子如果今年底沒有通過"},{"start":6806.61,"end":6808.61,"text":"拖到明年就完全失效了"},{"start":6808.61,"end":6809.61,"text":"是這樣子嗎"},{"start":6809.61,"end":6811.61,"text":"是 但如果沒有在今年通過的話"},{"start":6811.61,"end":6812.61,"text":"明年"},{"start":6813.18,"end":6815.18,"text":"主席長我們明年"},{"start":6815.18,"end":6817.18,"text":"115年就失效"},{"start":6817.18,"end":6818.18,"text":"就沒有辦法了"},{"start":6818.18,"end":6820.18,"text":"因為他跟總預算不一樣"},{"start":6820.18,"end":6821.18,"text":"沒有辦法拖這麼久"},{"start":6821.18,"end":6822.18,"text":"因為他是追加"},{"start":6822.18,"end":6824.18,"text":"到年底就失效了"},{"start":6824.18,"end":6825.18,"text":"到年底就失效了"},{"start":6825.18,"end":6827.18,"text":"那請大家一起來關心"},{"start":6827.18,"end":6829.18,"text":"就是行政院的這個"},{"start":6829.18,"end":6831.18,"text":"就是能夠讓"},{"start":6831.18,"end":6833.18,"text":"八大社福弱勢團體"},{"start":6833.18,"end":6838.18,"text":"318萬人加72萬的軍公教受益的重要福利"},{"start":6838.18,"end":6839.18,"text":"我想也在這邊呼籲"},{"start":6839.18,"end":6842.18,"text":"那謝謝主席長請回"},{"start":6842.18,"end":6845.18,"text":"那最後一題想問教育部長"},{"start":6845.18,"end":6848.18,"text":"我想院長你也認同這句話"},{"start":6849.21,"end":6851.21,"text":"教師安心才有好的教育"},{"start":6851.21,"end":6854.21,"text":"教育改革一定要兼顧教師權益"},{"start":6854.21,"end":6856.21,"text":"跟學生權益沒錯吧"},{"start":6856.21,"end":6857.21,"text":"是"},{"start":6857.21,"end":6860.21,"text":"那我想請問部長"},{"start":6860.21,"end":6863.21,"text":"那我先謝謝部長跟院長"},{"start":6863.21,"end":6866.21,"text":"最近增聘了校安人力"},{"start":6866.21,"end":6867.21,"text":"那我想這個部分"},{"start":6867.21,"end":6870.21,"text":"基層的反應我們聽到的都很肯定"},{"start":6870.21,"end":6872.21,"text":"就是謝謝院長的支持"},{"start":6872.21,"end":6874.21,"text":"還有部長的支持"},{"start":6874.21,"end":6876.21,"text":"那讓教師在校安這個部分"},{"start":6876.21,"end":6879.21,"text":"能夠稍微的就是覺得比較安心一點"},{"start":6879.21,"end":6882.21,"text":"那可是我想部長非常的了解"},{"start":6882.21,"end":6885.21,"text":"我們上個會期在教文委員會中"},{"start":6885.21,"end":6888.21,"text":"在程序上跟民主討論上"},{"start":6888.21,"end":6890.21,"text":"很多本黨立委都不能接受的"},{"start":6890.21,"end":6892.21,"text":"那但是這個解聘辦法"},{"start":6892.21,"end":6894.21,"text":"後來的確是被退回了"},{"start":6894.21,"end":6898.21,"text":"那我想教育部也一定都有在滾動式的檢討"},{"start":6898.21,"end":6900.21,"text":"那請問部長"},{"start":6900.21,"end":6902.21,"text":"那之後你們有沒有聆聽"},{"start":6902.21,"end":6905.21,"text":"有沒有機會聆聽第一線教師的聲音呢"},{"start":6905.21,"end":6908.21,"text":"謝謝委員關心這有關這個校園"},{"start":6908.21,"end":6912.21,"text":"怎麼樣確保能夠有好良好的教學品質"},{"start":6912.21,"end":6915.21,"text":"讓這些老師能夠安心教學"},{"start":6915.21,"end":6917.21,"text":"然後不適任老師能夠遠離校園"},{"start":6917.21,"end":6922.21,"text":"那確實我們針對過去紛紛擾擾的濫述"},{"start":6922.21,"end":6924.21,"text":"在去年之前"},{"start":6924.21,"end":6927.21,"text":"事實上我們在新的辦法裡邊"},{"start":6927.21,"end":6928.21,"text":"解決了這個問題"},{"start":6928.21,"end":6932.21,"text":"也就把濫述跟不具名投訴的全部不受理"},{"start":6932.21,"end":6934.21,"text":"這光這個"},{"start":6934.63,"end":6936.63,"text":"等於說進入到校制會議的量"},{"start":6936.63,"end":6939.63,"text":"就一下子就減了50%"},{"start":6939.63,"end":6943.63,"text":"那在這裡邊我們看到的分流的處理"},{"start":6943.63,"end":6946.63,"text":"包括為罪不舉的校長的提醒"},{"start":6946.63,"end":6950.63,"text":"或者有更積極的班級經營這些"},{"start":6950.63,"end":6954.63,"text":"大概就回到學校裡邊"},{"start":6954.63,"end":6956.63,"text":"直接處理不在"},{"start":6957.69,"end":6961.69,"text":"邀請什麼校外的委員來這一個調查"},{"start":6961.69,"end":6963.69,"text":"這個都回到學校裡邊"},{"start":6963.69,"end":6968.69,"text":"那在未來我們確實也現在跟地方各地方的"},{"start":6968.69,"end":6970.69,"text":"不管教師團體"},{"start":6970.69,"end":6972.69,"text":"這個民間家長團體"},{"start":6972.69,"end":6974.69,"text":"或者校長團體還有各地方政府"},{"start":6974.69,"end":6976.69,"text":"我們現在大概主要"},{"start":6976.69,"end":6978.69,"text":"除了把現有的這個制度"},{"start":6978.69,"end":6980.69,"text":"一直在往好的方向走"},{"start":6980.69,"end":6983.69,"text":"這個我們在希望能夠滾動式修正"},{"start":6983.69,"end":6986.69,"text":"大概我們目前未來會著重在一個"},{"start":6986.69,"end":6989.69,"text":"教師權益的確保"},{"start":6989.69,"end":6993.69,"text":"預防所謂的職場的不法侵害"},{"start":6993.69,"end":6996.69,"text":"這個部分我們希望能夠把它納進去"},{"start":6996.69,"end":7001.69,"text":"那另外一個就是我們怎麼樣去明文的確保"},{"start":7001.69,"end":7005.69,"text":"這一個教師的合理管教的這個"},{"start":7006.9,"end":7010.9,"text":"這樣的一個合理管教的這樣一個管教權"},{"start":7010.9,"end":7012.9,"text":"這一個也是我們在未來裡邊"},{"start":7012.9,"end":7015.9,"text":"我們目前在整個辦法裡邊會"},{"start":7015.9,"end":7017.9,"text":"朝那個方向來更精進"},{"start":7017.9,"end":7018.9,"text":"謝謝部長的說明"},{"start":7018.9,"end":7019.9,"text":"因為據我的了解"},{"start":7019.9,"end":7022.9,"text":"你們的確都有邀請第一線的教師團體"},{"start":7022.9,"end":7024.9,"text":"雖然我覺得還可以邀得更廣一些"},{"start":7024.9,"end":7028.9,"text":"那我自己也邀了主要的這些團體"},{"start":7028.9,"end":7030.9,"text":"一一跟他們深入的對話"},{"start":7030.9,"end":7032.9,"text":"那所以我想在這個時候"},{"start":7032.9,"end":7037.9,"text":"你們還沒有公布你們的一些滾動式檢討的內容的時候"},{"start":7037.9,"end":7039.9,"text":"我想有五大提醒"},{"start":7039.9,"end":7041.9,"text":"第一個剛剛部長也有提到"},{"start":7041.9,"end":7044.9,"text":"教師目前最關心的就是如何解決"},{"start":7044.9,"end":7047.9,"text":"濫訴或者少數的恐龍家長的問題"},{"start":7047.9,"end":7049.9,"text":"那保護教師"},{"start":7049.9,"end":7050.9,"text":"那您剛剛有講到"},{"start":7050.9,"end":7054.9,"text":"明文規範受理不受理的理由該退回就退回"},{"start":7054.9,"end":7055.9,"text":"那依照職安法"},{"start":7055.9,"end":7057.9,"text":"我想剛剛部長有提到"},{"start":7057.9,"end":7059.9,"text":"其實我們未還委員會"},{"start":7059.9,"end":7061.9,"text":"勞動部這邊有職安法"},{"start":7061.9,"end":7064.9,"text":"那可以制定校園不法的侵害預防指引"},{"start":7064.9,"end":7069.9,"text":"就跟醫護他不應該被不合理的病人的要求"},{"start":7069.9,"end":7071.9,"text":"就是各種的霸凌"},{"start":7071.9,"end":7073.9,"text":"那第二個無辜教師的補償"},{"start":7073.9,"end":7076.9,"text":"雖然教文委員已經做了部分的改善"},{"start":7076.9,"end":7080.9,"text":"那大家還是認為其實他沒有完整的薪水"},{"start":7080.9,"end":7083.9,"text":"如果最後被判他基本上是無辜的老師"},{"start":7083.9,"end":7085.9,"text":"還有名譽回復的問題"},{"start":7085.9,"end":7088.9,"text":"那這裡代理教師又更受傷"},{"start":7088.9,"end":7091.9,"text":"那還有調查報告委員名單不遮蔽"},{"start":7091.9,"end":7094.9,"text":"還有調查要更有教育的專業"},{"start":7094.9,"end":7096.9,"text":"那當然很多的減壓措施"},{"start":7096.9,"end":7098.9,"text":"那我想我就不再提了"},{"start":7106.01,"end":7108.01,"text":"好謝謝蔡委員質詢"},{"start":7108.01,"end":7110.01,"text":"謝謝主任院長相關部會首長備詢"},{"start":7117.18,"end":7118.18,"text":"好 沒關係"},{"start":7140.87,"end":7144.87,"text":"報告委員會因為有一批長輩動作比較慢一點點"},{"start":7144.87,"end":7146.87,"text":"他們正在依序的要做到旁聽席"},{"start":7146.87,"end":7148.87,"text":"我們稍微等一下下"},{"start":7175.53,"end":7176.53,"text":"好 歡迎大家"},{"start":7176.53,"end":7179.53,"text":"我們現在台北市士林區"},{"start":7179.53,"end":7182.53,"text":"林西里的一些長輩立法院來參觀"},{"start":7182.53,"end":7183.53,"text":"我們掌聲歡迎大家"},{"start":7187.57,"end":7190.57,"text":"接下來我們請傅崑琪委員質詢"},{"start":7191.45,"end":7193.45,"text":"莊瑞詢委員請準備"},{"start":7218.38,"end":7220.38,"text":"主席請院長"},{"start":7220.57,"end":7222.57,"text":"麻煩再請主任院長備詢"},{"start":7232.32,"end":7233.32,"text":"副委員好"},{"start":7233.4,"end":7234.4,"text":"院長好"},{"start":7235.37,"end":7237.37,"text":"這個全國國人"},{"start":7237.63,"end":7239.63,"text":"一起每天都在看"},{"start":7240,"end":7242,"text":"這個行政院發布"},{"start":7242.09,"end":7245.09,"text":"這個經濟果實全民共享"},{"start":7245.09,"end":7246.09,"text":"台灣經濟的發展"},{"start":7246.7,"end":7248.7,"text":"是因為台灣人才輩出"},{"start":7249.33,"end":7250.33,"text":"台灣的教育成功"},{"start":7251.13,"end":7253.13,"text":"由於這麼多的人才"},{"start":7253.41,"end":7254.41,"text":"而且"},{"start":7254.59,"end":7255.59,"text":"我們的"},{"start":7255.83,"end":7256.83,"text":"經國先生"},{"start":7256.83,"end":7257.83,"text":"經國先生"},{"start":7259.01,"end":7260.01,"text":"當時啊"},{"start":7260.01,"end":7262.01,"text":"創立了台積電"},{"start":7262.01,"end":7264.01,"text":"孫一璇 李國鼎先生 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.92,"end":9872.92,"text":"那對於節能減碳的像三種冷氣機或廚師機冰箱"},{"start":9872.92,"end":9874.92,"text":"我們都給"},{"start":9874.92,"end":9876.92,"text":"退稅2000塊的一個"},{"start":9876.92,"end":9878.92,"text":"就高效評的"},{"start":9878.92,"end":9880.92,"text":"因為我們希望用這種節能減碳的"},{"start":9880.92,"end":9882.92,"text":"一個電器來鼓勵民眾買"},{"start":9882.92,"end":9884.92,"text":"所以在貨物稅的部分是減增2000塊"},{"start":9884.92,"end":9886.92,"text":"那在電動車跟機車的部分"},{"start":9886.92,"end":9888.92,"text":"貨物稅也已經都沒有再增收了"},{"start":9888.92,"end":9890.92,"text":"那另外就是對於像那個"},{"start":9890.92,"end":9892.92,"text":"機車的部分"},{"start":9892.92,"end":9894.92,"text":"也都給減增"},{"start":9894.92,"end":9896.92,"text":"所以我想這個幾乎都在"},{"start":9896.92,"end":9898.92,"text":"持續的一些做調整"},{"start":9898.92,"end":9900.92,"text":"本席的意思就是說"},{"start":9900.92,"end":9902.92,"text":"貨員講了一半"},{"start":9902.92,"end":9904.92,"text":"他也不是全錯"},{"start":9904.56,"end":9906.56,"text":"他是只講了一半"},{"start":9906.56,"end":9908.56,"text":"但問題你全部去廢除的話"},{"start":9908.17,"end":9910.17,"text":"你政府的因應是什麼"},{"start":9910.17,"end":9912.17,"text":"你政府的因應的話你這個整個"},{"start":9912.17,"end":9914.17,"text":"營業稅就是你這個消費你必定要去提高"},{"start":9914.17,"end":9916.17,"text":"不然你一年的稅金你"},{"start":9916.17,"end":9918.17,"text":"少了1500億嘛"},{"start":9918.17,"end":9920.17,"text":"那你營業稅提高你中和首都稅你必須要去提高"},{"start":9920.17,"end":9922.17,"text":"你造成的是什麼尤其是營業稅提高"},{"start":9922.17,"end":9924.17,"text":"第一個物價一定漲"},{"start":9924.17,"end":9926.17,"text":"你對於現在你政府"},{"start":9926.17,"end":9928.17,"text":"對於各方面社福也好"},{"start":9928.17,"end":9930.17,"text":"勞退的部分你的補補也好"},{"start":9930.17,"end":9932.17,"text":"或者說整個國防各方面的"},{"start":9932.17,"end":9934.17,"text":"一個建設也好你一定會去"},{"start":9934.17,"end":9936.17,"text":"減嘛所以啊"},{"start":9936.17,"end":9938.17,"text":"當在野黨抓住一個議題"},{"start":9938.17,"end":9940.17,"text":"在講的時候很簡單你說把它廢除掉"},{"start":9940.17,"end":9942.17,"text":"未必錯喔"},{"start":9942.17,"end":9944.17,"text":"但問題是廢除掉你政府的因應"},{"start":9944.17,"end":9946.17,"text":"你這個就要去講清楚"},{"start":9946.17,"end":9948.17,"text":"剛才沒講了所以啊"},{"start":9948.17,"end":9950.17,"text":"這個問題真的什麼都要講了"},{"start":9950.17,"end":9952.17,"text":"部長請回我接下來要請教卓院長"},{"start":9955.32,"end":9957.32,"text":"我跟妳學生這樣喔"},{"start":9957.32,"end":9959.32,"text":"然後超過30年了"},{"start":9958.9,"end":9960.9,"text":"我常常去想啊立法院啊"},{"start":9960.9,"end":9962.9,"text":"做成一個決議啊"},{"start":9962.9,"end":9964.9,"text":"不是決議喔我們預算"},{"start":9964.9,"end":9966.9,"text":"把你的薪水給刪除掉以後"},{"start":9968.18,"end":9970.18,"text":"我第一個想到的"},{"start":9970.18,"end":9972.18,"text":"這不是引起多大的一個衝擊"},{"start":9972.18,"end":9974.18,"text":"這個喔"},{"start":9973.8,"end":9975.8,"text":"今天假設立法院喔"},{"start":9976.82,"end":9978.82,"text":"是把韓院長的薪水刪除掉"},{"start":9978.82,"end":9980.82,"text":"沒完沒了"},{"start":9980.82,"end":9982.82,"text":"因為韓院長我對他的個性的了解"},{"start":9984.66,"end":9986.66,"text":"他差不多一年喔"},{"start":9986.66,"end":9988.66,"text":"願不願意跟你開"},{"start":9987.79,"end":9989.79,"text":"你整個國家你全部都是延宕"},{"start":9989.79,"end":9991.79,"text":"這第一個問題"},{"start":9991.36,"end":9993.36,"text":"第二個問題"},{"start":9993.36,"end":9995.36,"text":"第二個問題就是說"},{"start":9994.82,"end":9996.82,"text":"韓院長他老婆跟卓院長老婆"},{"start":9996.82,"end":9998.82,"text":"兩個去收下午茶"},{"start":9999.57,"end":10001.57,"text":"香味冷清"},{"start":10001.39,"end":10003.39,"text":"你們這樣什麼事"},{"start":10003.39,"end":10005.39,"text":"他叫你們兩個在那邊消費"},{"start":10005.39,"end":10007.39,"text":"我覺得很浪費"},{"start":10007.39,"end":10009.39,"text":"你做到現在你都算多大"},{"start":10009.39,"end":10011.39,"text":"你薪水沒辦法拿回去"},{"start":10011.39,"end":10013.39,"text":"老婆跟老婆在說"},{"start":10013.39,"end":10015.39,"text":"你們人一般多少"},{"start":10015.39,"end":10017.39,"text":"韓院長他們老婆出來說我們人37萬"},{"start":10016.1,"end":10018.1,"text":"所以韓院長你沒有出來公關安定"},{"start":10018.48,"end":10020.48,"text":"你們怎麼開"},{"start":10020.48,"end":10022.48,"text":"人家一定說這做到現在"},{"start":10022.48,"end":10024.48,"text":"一定會在沒路了"},{"start":10024.48,"end":10026.48,"text":"我們一天薪水都沒拿回來"},{"start":10026.48,"end":10028.48,"text":"我的意思就是說"},{"start":10028.37,"end":10030.37,"text":"一個國家分官設職"},{"start":10030.37,"end":10032.37,"text":"公務人員法定待遇該多少"},{"start":10032.37,"end":10034.37,"text":"他就應該就是要多少"},{"start":10037.65,"end":10039.65,"text":"立法院做成一個決議"},{"start":10039.65,"end":10041.65,"text":"可以把國家"},{"start":10041.65,"end":10043.65,"text":"我們可以把國家"},{"start":10043.65,"end":10045.65,"text":"任何的一個政策的施行"},{"start":10045.65,"end":10047.65,"text":"或者新"},{"start":10047.65,"end":10049.65,"text":"你如果說今天是新興資本"},{"start":10049.65,"end":10051.65,"text":"或者說新興計畫"},{"start":10051.65,"end":10053.65,"text":"你要去做一個推動"},{"start":10053.65,"end":10055.65,"text":"立法院站在一個監督單位"},{"start":10055.65,"end":10057.65,"text":"那本來就有錢來做一個決定"},{"start":10057.65,"end":10059.65,"text":"但是其他你按照預算法"},{"start":10059.65,"end":10061.65,"text":"50%的規定"},{"start":10061.65,"end":10063.65,"text":"立法院我們給你延宕350一天"},{"start":10063.65,"end":10065.65,"text":"還要晚上1個月出獄"},{"start":10064.99,"end":10066.99,"text":"發現"},{"start":10066.1,"end":10068.1,"text":"還沒通過以前"},{"start":10068.1,"end":10070.1,"text":"左翼龍太院長的薪水"},{"start":10069.97,"end":10071.97,"text":"還沒通過延宕"},{"start":10071.97,"end":10072.97,"text":"反而你有薪水可以領"},{"start":10073.12,"end":10075.12,"text":"做成決議以後"},{"start":10075.12,"end":10077.12,"text":"你說沒薪水你回去你老婆不願意"},{"start":10077.12,"end":10079.12,"text":"請你讓你"},{"start":10078.83,"end":10080.83,"text":"回答"},{"start":10081,"end":10083,"text":"是沒有那麼嚴重"},{"start":10083,"end":10085,"text":"只是多做一些加市而已"},{"start":10085.17,"end":10087.17,"text":"多做一些加市"},{"start":10087.3,"end":10089.3,"text":"沒有"},{"start":10089.3,"end":10091.3,"text":"其實你這個你回家跟你老婆"},{"start":10091.3,"end":10093.3,"text":"怎麼交代"},{"start":10093.3,"end":10095.3,"text":"那是你個人要去交代"},{"start":10095.3,"end":10097.3,"text":"但問題是你涉及到"},{"start":10097.3,"end":10099.3,"text":"整個國家的一個制度"},{"start":10099.3,"end":10101.3,"text":"你院長該多少就是多少"},{"start":10101.3,"end":10103.3,"text":"你這個官職"},{"start":10103.3,"end":10105.3,"text":"部長該多少就是多少"},{"start":10105.3,"end":10107.3,"text":"這個預算法54條第三項裡面"},{"start":10107.3,"end":10109.3,"text":"那個是法定"},{"start":10109.3,"end":10111.3,"text":"法定義務的一個支出"},{"start":10111.75,"end":10113.75,"text":"你這邊怎麼做"},{"start":10113.32,"end":10115.32,"text":"副院長來來來"},{"start":10115.32,"end":10117.32,"text":"先暫停"},{"start":10119.21,"end":10121.21,"text":"任市長請備詢"},{"start":10125.59,"end":10127.59,"text":"副院長"},{"start":10126.95,"end":10127.95,"text":"你們這不講清楚"},{"start":10127.95,"end":10128.95,"text":"你們海裡主任長回去"},{"start":10128.95,"end":10130.95,"text":"老婆不願意這樣嗎"},{"start":10131.83,"end":10133.83,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":10133.83,"end":10137.83,"text":"這是我們國家的法定機關的法定職務"},{"start":10137.83,"end":10139.83,"text":"他的待遇都是法定經費"},{"start":10140.64,"end":10142.64,"text":"可以依法可以領取"},{"start":10143.29,"end":10145.29,"text":"所以也就是說政策"},{"start":10145.29,"end":10147.29,"text":"因為所有公務員也都是這樣子"},{"start":10147.29,"end":10149.29,"text":"你政策的推動"},{"start":10149.29,"end":10151.29,"text":"你確實立法院監督機關你確實"},{"start":10151.29,"end":10153.29,"text":"講白話就是要看立法院的臉色"},{"start":10153.29,"end":10155.29,"text":"但問題是公務員"},{"start":10155.29,"end":10157.29,"text":"你的薪資還要再看立法院的臉色"},{"start":10157.29,"end":10159.29,"text":"這哪通你覺得這樣合理嗎"},{"start":10159.29,"end":10161.29,"text":"來 部任市長請你"},{"start":10163.64,"end":10165.64,"text":"依法可以"},{"start":10165.64,"end":10167.64,"text":"院長的薪資是可以領取"},{"start":10167.64,"end":10169.64,"text":"我的意思是說"},{"start":10169.64,"end":10171.64,"text":"卓院長要怎麼代母交代他們的事情"},{"start":10171.64,"end":10173.64,"text":"輸他們的事情"},{"start":10173.64,"end":10175.64,"text":"但是涉及到國家"},{"start":10175.64,"end":10177.64,"text":"尤其涉及到預算法"},{"start":10177.64,"end":10179.64,"text":"54條法定義務的支出"},{"start":10179.64,"end":10181.64,"text":"這個國家要向人民講清楚"},{"start":10181.64,"end":10183.64,"text":"制度是一致的"},{"start":10183.64,"end":10185.64,"text":"就是可以依法領取"},{"start":10185.64,"end":10187.64,"text":"依法進行"},{"start":10187.64,"end":10189.64,"text":"卓院長不要跟他拼了"},{"start":10189.64,"end":10191.64,"text":"你時間到你本地就要給人家"},{"start":10191.82,"end":10193.82,"text":"他的薪水不是我發的"},{"start":10193.82,"end":10195.82,"text":"薪水不是你發的"},{"start":10195.82,"end":10197.82,"text":"應該下個月就有薪水了"},{"start":10197.82,"end":10199.82,"text":"兩件事情"},{"start":10199.82,"end":10201.82,"text":"因為薪水沒有撥付下來"},{"start":10201.82,"end":10203.82,"text":"欠保費也沒有的繳"},{"start":10203.82,"end":10209.82,"text":"很多的公務員必要的退休的提撥也沒有辦法做"},{"start":10209.82,"end":10211.82,"text":"所以這個月"},{"start":10212.11,"end":10214.11,"text":"九月份是整個空白在這裡"},{"start":10214.11,"end":10216.11,"text":"但是我的想法是"},{"start":10216.11,"end":10218.11,"text":"我不會讓這個例子開一個這樣的惡例"},{"start":10218.11,"end":10220.11,"text":"這會影響到其他的"},{"start":10220.11,"end":10222.11,"text":"中央地方的行政部門的官員"},{"start":10222.11,"end":10224.11,"text":"所以這個例子不能開"},{"start":10224.11,"end":10226.11,"text":"但是我這個月沒有領"},{"start":10226.11,"end":10228.11,"text":"我是尊重立法院"},{"start":10228.11,"end":10230.11,"text":"但是我尊重立法院我更尊重法律"},{"start":10230.11,"end":10232.11,"text":"是這樣才對"},{"start":10232.11,"end":10234.11,"text":"這樣的一個態度才對"},{"start":10234.11,"end":10236.11,"text":"不然開這樣的一個惡例的話"},{"start":10236.11,"end":10238.11,"text":"我覺得就沒完沒了"},{"start":10238.11,"end":10240.11,"text":"尤其"},{"start":10240.11,"end":10242.11,"text":"所有人輸掉都不敢找你吃飯"},{"start":10242.11,"end":10244.11,"text":"找你吃飯你也沒錢了大家也不敢請你"},{"start":10244.11,"end":10246.11,"text":"那個副院長請回"},{"start":10246.11,"end":10248.11,"text":"另外我請交通部長"},{"start":10248.11,"end":10250.11,"text":"麻煩請交通部長備詢"},{"start":10263.54,"end":10265.54,"text":"部長"},{"start":10265.14,"end":10270.14,"text":"最近美國美制車輛零關稅議題"},{"start":10270.14,"end":10272.14,"text":"在引起討論"},{"start":10272.14,"end":10274.14,"text":"本席這個地方要來就教就是說"},{"start":10274.14,"end":10276.14,"text":"美國車要進來"},{"start":10276.14,"end":10277.14,"text":"零關稅進來"},{"start":10277.14,"end":10279.14,"text":"站在老百姓的立場他一定很開心"},{"start":10279.14,"end":10281.14,"text":"多好笑"},{"start":10281.14,"end":10283.14,"text":"但問題除了便宜之外"},{"start":10283.14,"end":10285.14,"text":"本席在這個地方有一個"},{"start":10285.14,"end":10287.14,"text":"比較嚴肅的議題要來請教"},{"start":10287.14,"end":10289.14,"text":"美國車"},{"start":10289.21,"end":10291.21,"text":"後方的一個方向燈"},{"start":10291.21,"end":10293.21,"text":"車尾燈這個地方"},{"start":10295.6,"end":10297.6,"text":"後面一半就Amber"},{"start":10297.6,"end":10299.6,"text":"就是那個橙色"},{"start":10299.6,"end":10301.6,"text":"就是說我們一般在開車的時候"},{"start":10301.6,"end":10303.6,"text":"我們如果車尾燈"},{"start":10303.6,"end":10305.6,"text":"然後煞車"},{"start":10305.6,"end":10307.6,"text":"如果要右轉的時候"},{"start":10307.6,"end":10309.6,"text":"我們台灣這裡就差不多橙色"},{"start":10309.6,"end":10311.6,"text":"美國車進來之後"},{"start":10311.6,"end":10313.6,"text":"這很麻煩"},{"start":10313.6,"end":10315.6,"text":"現在就是說你車要右轉"},{"start":10315.6,"end":10317.6,"text":"還是要左轉"},{"start":10317.6,"end":10319.6,"text":"尤其是在路上"},{"start":10319.6,"end":10321.6,"text":"在台灣這個問題就很嚴肅"},{"start":10321.6,"end":10323.6,"text":"我們機車"},{"start":10323.6,"end":10325.6,"text":"汽車"},{"start":10324.75,"end":10326.75,"text":"我們沒有分流"},{"start":10326.75,"end":10328.75,"text":"都跟著一起"},{"start":10328.75,"end":10330.75,"text":"你剛好暗示"},{"start":10330.75,"end":10332.75,"text":"你剛好下雨天"},{"start":10332.75,"end":10334.75,"text":"那個燈光你確實你很難去判斷"},{"start":10334.75,"end":10336.75,"text":"他到底要煞車"},{"start":10336.75,"end":10338.75,"text":"或者到底要右轉"},{"start":10338.75,"end":10340.75,"text":"按照美國你看從2008 2009"},{"start":10340.75,"end":10342.75,"text":"他們去做出來的一個研究"},{"start":10342.75,"end":10344.75,"text":"就是說如果你右方要去方向"},{"start":10344.75,"end":10346.75,"text":"你這個方向燈"},{"start":10346.75,"end":10348.75,"text":"你如果是用橙黃色的"},{"start":10348.75,"end":10350.75,"text":"那個兩部車的照視率"},{"start":10350.75,"end":10352.75,"text":"會降低到5%"},{"start":10352.86,"end":10354.86,"text":"降低到5%"},{"start":10354.86,"end":10356.86,"text":"你從2008 2009"},{"start":10356.86,"end":10358.86,"text":"美國是這樣"},{"start":10358.87,"end":10360.87,"text":"在日本在韓國"},{"start":10360.87,"end":10362.87,"text":"甚至在歐盟"},{"start":10362.61,"end":10364.61,"text":"他們的方向燈你只要轉的"},{"start":10364.61,"end":10366.61,"text":"就不是什麼紅燈"},{"start":10366.61,"end":10368.61,"text":"跟台灣不一樣"},{"start":10368.61,"end":10370.61,"text":"有沒有可能因應"},{"start":10370.61,"end":10372.61,"text":"這個整個汽車"},{"start":10372.61,"end":10374.61,"text":"零關稅"},{"start":10374.61,"end":10376.61,"text":"汽車便宜以後我相信"},{"start":10376.61,"end":10378.61,"text":"美國車美國規格的車輛"},{"start":10378.61,"end":10380.61,"text":"進口到台灣一定會更多"},{"start":10380.61,"end":10382.61,"text":"那更多以後"},{"start":10382.61,"end":10384.61,"text":"造成整個用路人"},{"start":10384.61,"end":10386.61,"text":"開車的人"},{"start":10385.9,"end":10387.9,"text":"你對於他來說"},{"start":10387.9,"end":10389.9,"text":"甚至於對於整個交通安全"},{"start":10389.9,"end":10391.9,"text":"都是一大挑戰"},{"start":10391.9,"end":10393.9,"text":"我不知道部長"},{"start":10393.9,"end":10395.9,"text":"我們有新的一個看法"},{"start":10397.55,"end":10399.55,"text":"我們應該大國際上來做一個接軌"},{"start":10399.55,"end":10401.55,"text":"來做一個接軌"},{"start":10401.55,"end":10403.55,"text":"你說其他先進的國家"},{"start":10403.55,"end":10405.55,"text":"因應這個整個"},{"start":10405.55,"end":10407.55,"text":"台灣的整個用路的一個情況"},{"start":10407.55,"end":10409.55,"text":"那這一些來對於"},{"start":10409.55,"end":10411.55,"text":"如果說右轉燈"},{"start":10413.19,"end":10415.19,"text":"我們台灣現在就有一半"},{"start":10415.19,"end":10417.19,"text":"我們不要像美國車進來後"},{"start":10417.19,"end":10419.19,"text":"全部都給他紅色"},{"start":10420.14,"end":10422.14,"text":"這樣我們法規上"},{"start":10422.14,"end":10424.14,"text":"去做一個調和的話"},{"start":10424.14,"end":10426.14,"text":"對於整個台灣"},{"start":10426.14,"end":10428.14,"text":"在用路對駕駛人"},{"start":10428.14,"end":10430.14,"text":"在開車的安全上"},{"start":10430.14,"end":10432.14,"text":"有很大的一個提升"},{"start":10432.14,"end":10434.14,"text":"我不曉得我們交通部"},{"start":10434.14,"end":10436.14,"text":"對於這方面法規"},{"start":10436.14,"end":10438.14,"text":"或者因應整個汽車的"},{"start":10438.14,"end":10440.14,"text":"零關稅這樣造成"},{"start":10440.14,"end":10442.14,"text":"交通安全的一個衝擊"},{"start":10442.14,"end":10444.14,"text":"有沒有因應之道"},{"start":10443.02,"end":10445.02,"text":"像委員報告"},{"start":10445.02,"end":10447.02,"text":"以現況來講"},{"start":10447.02,"end":10449.02,"text":"我們是比較符合UNEC的規範"},{"start":10449.02,"end":10451.02,"text":"也就是說"},{"start":10451.02,"end":10453.02,"text":"澳洲跟日本跟歐洲"},{"start":10453.02,"end":10455.02,"text":"他們的系統基本上是以橘黃燈為主"},{"start":10455.02,"end":10457.02,"text":"那台灣因為我們現在"},{"start":10457.02,"end":10459.02,"text":"還有一些美制車會進來"},{"start":10459.02,"end":10461.02,"text":"所以我們是橘黃燈以及紅燈"},{"start":10461.02,"end":10463.02,"text":"其實我們都是接受"},{"start":10463.02,"end":10465.02,"text":"現在美國的現況也大概是這個樣子"},{"start":10465.02,"end":10467.02,"text":"所以美國大概比例上接近一半"},{"start":10467.02,"end":10469.02,"text":"有一些是紅燈"},{"start":10469.02,"end":10471.02,"text":"那有一些是橘黃燈"},{"start":10471.02,"end":10473.02,"text":"我剛剛講的歐洲日本跟澳洲"},{"start":10473.02,"end":10475.02,"text":"他們都是以橘黃燈為主"},{"start":10475.02,"end":10477.02,"text":"那現在台灣有個問題就是說"},{"start":10477.02,"end":10479.02,"text":"我們的主要的法規依循"},{"start":10479.02,"end":10481.02,"text":"大部分都是依照UNEC"},{"start":10481.02,"end":10483.02,"text":"那也就是說比較接近"},{"start":10483.02,"end":10485.02,"text":"歐洲跟日本的系統"},{"start":10485.02,"end":10487.02,"text":"但現在因為美國車要進來了"},{"start":10487.02,"end":10489.02,"text":"確實我們就會面臨到"},{"start":10489.02,"end":10491.02,"text":"可能會有比較大的比例的"},{"start":10491.02,"end":10493.02,"text":"紅色的轉彎燈"},{"start":10493.02,"end":10495.02,"text":"的這個"},{"start":10495.02,"end":10497.02,"text":"紅色燈會比較多一些進來"},{"start":10497.02,"end":10499.02,"text":"那我們目前也在看看說"},{"start":10499.02,"end":10501.02,"text":"這個部分造成台灣的交通的模式"},{"start":10501.02,"end":10503.02,"text":"因為台灣的交通模式其實跟美國不一定一樣"},{"start":10503.02,"end":10505.02,"text":"因為我們現在混合車流"},{"start":10505.02,"end":10507.02,"text":"其實相對比較複雜一點"},{"start":10507.02,"end":10509.02,"text":"所以剛剛委員所提醒的"},{"start":10509.02,"end":10511.02,"text":"數據上面"},{"start":10511.02,"end":10513.02,"text":"車禍比例上面"},{"start":10513.02,"end":10515.02,"text":"我覺得台灣必須要先再做一套"},{"start":10515.02,"end":10517.02,"text":"那委員現在提醒說"},{"start":10517.02,"end":10519.02,"text":"未來法規上面"},{"start":10519.02,"end":10521.02,"text":"要不要再做更強制性"},{"start":10521.02,"end":10523.02,"text":"目前我們是比較開放一點"},{"start":10523.02,"end":10525.02,"text":"就是說橘黃燈可以"},{"start":10525.02,"end":10527.02,"text":"紅燈也可以"},{"start":10527.02,"end":10529.02,"text":"我們看造勢的狀況"},{"start":10529.02,"end":10531.02,"text":"如果有需要調整我們都會滾動來檢討"},{"start":10531.02,"end":10533.02,"text":"所以部長本席在這個地方具體要求"},{"start":10533.02,"end":10535.02,"text":"因應"},{"start":10535.02,"end":10537.02,"text":"整個汽車的零關稅"},{"start":10537.02,"end":10539.02,"text":"帶來交通方面"},{"start":10539.02,"end":10541.02,"text":"這樣的一個衝擊"},{"start":10541.02,"end":10543.02,"text":"畢竟美國地方大"},{"start":10543.38,"end":10545.38,"text":"美國用車用路的情況跟台灣不太一樣"},{"start":10545.38,"end":10547.38,"text":"那是不是我們加速去原意"},{"start":10547.38,"end":10549.38,"text":"好不好"},{"start":10549.38,"end":10551.38,"text":"應該調整就調整啦"},{"start":10551.38,"end":10553.38,"text":"院長請暫停"},{"start":10553.38,"end":10555.38,"text":"勞動部長"},{"start":10555.38,"end":10557.38,"text":"勞動部長被選"},{"start":10569.5,"end":10571.5,"text":"院長部長我想"},{"start":10571.5,"end":10573.5,"text":"最後一分鐘的時間要來請教"},{"start":10573.5,"end":10575.5,"text":"就是說老百姓"},{"start":10575.5,"end":10577.5,"text":"都是斤斤計較"},{"start":10577.5,"end":10579.5,"text":"以前我小時候還沒讀書的時候"},{"start":10579.5,"end":10581.5,"text":"一碗麵兩塊"},{"start":10581.35,"end":10583.35,"text":"現在一碗麵兩碗麵一碗都要50塊"},{"start":10584.81,"end":10586.81,"text":"生活開銷其實都是變大了"},{"start":10586.81,"end":10588.81,"text":"你看1989年"},{"start":10590.29,"end":10592.29,"text":"無殼蝸牛運動"},{"start":10592.29,"end":10594.29,"text":"就夜宿中下東路"},{"start":10594.29,"end":10596.29,"text":"那參加得到"},{"start":10596.29,"end":10598.29,"text":"那已經蝸牛現在做阿公了"},{"start":10596.35,"end":10598.35,"text":"他的孫子現在也是一樣"},{"start":10598.35,"end":10600.35,"text":"很多人還是沒有殼"},{"start":10600.35,"end":10602.35,"text":"我們在2005年"},{"start":10602.35,"end":10604.35,"text":"勞工新制"},{"start":10604.35,"end":10606.35,"text":"去做一個改變"},{"start":10606.35,"end":10608.35,"text":"以現在的雇主提撥"},{"start":10608.35,"end":10610.35,"text":"6%"},{"start":10610.02,"end":10612.02,"text":"本席認為"},{"start":10612.02,"end":10614.02,"text":"經過這樣幾十年過去"},{"start":10614.02,"end":10616.02,"text":"二十年過去以後"},{"start":10616.02,"end":10618.02,"text":"有沒有可能再去提高"},{"start":10618.02,"end":10620.02,"text":"連審計部都認為"},{"start":10621.22,"end":10623.22,"text":"太少了"},{"start":10623.22,"end":10625.22,"text":"現在真正提撥雇主提撥的"},{"start":10625.22,"end":10627.22,"text":"6.04法定是6%"},{"start":10627.22,"end":10629.22,"text":"這代表說我們這個"},{"start":10640.53,"end":10642.53,"text":"我們現在就要去提升"},{"start":10642.53,"end":10644.53,"text":"我們現在就要去提升"},{"start":10644.53,"end":10646.53,"text":"我們現在就要去提升"},{"start":10646.53,"end":10648.53,"text":"我們現在就要去提升"},{"start":10648.53,"end":10650.53,"text":"我們現在就要去提升"},{"start":10650.53,"end":10652.53,"text":"我們現在就要去提升"},{"start":10652.53,"end":10654.53,"text":"我們現在就要去提升"},{"start":10654.53,"end":10656.53,"text":"我們現在就要去提升"},{"start":10656.53,"end":10658.53,"text":"我們現在就要去提升"},{"start":10658.53,"end":10660.53,"text":"我們現在就要去提升"},{"start":10660.53,"end":10662.53,"text":"我們現在就要去提升"},{"start":10662.53,"end":10664.53,"text":"我們現在就要去提升"},{"start":10664.53,"end":10666.53,"text":"我們現在就要去提升"},{"start":10666.53,"end":10668.53,"text":"我們現在就要去提升"},{"start":10644.14,"end":10646.14,"text":"我們現在就要去提升"},{"start":10646.14,"end":10648.14,"text":"我們現在就要去提升"},{"start":10648.14,"end":10650.14,"text":"我們現在就要去提升"},{"start":10650.14,"end":10652.14,"text":"我們現在就要去提升"},{"start":10652.14,"end":10654.14,"text":"我們現在就要去提升"},{"start":10654.14,"end":10656.14,"text":"我們現在就要去提升"},{"start":10656.14,"end":10658.14,"text":"我們現在就要去提升"},{"start":10658.14,"end":10660.14,"text":"我們現在就要去提升"},{"start":10660.14,"end":10662.14,"text":"我們現在就要去提升"},{"start":10662.14,"end":10664.14,"text":"我們現在就要去提升"},{"start":10664.14,"end":10666.14,"text":"我們現在就要去提升"},{"start":10666.14,"end":10668.14,"text":"我們現在就要去提升"},{"start":10668.14,"end":10670.14,"text":"我們現在就要去提升"},{"start":10670.14,"end":10672.14,"text":"我們現在就要去提升"},{"start":10670.01,"end":10672.01,"text":"我們希望行政委員"},{"start":10672.01,"end":10674.01,"text":"尤其是勞動部長"},{"start":10674.01,"end":10676.01,"text":"加速別的議黨對勞動的照顧"},{"start":10677.2,"end":10679.2,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":10678.14,"end":10680.14,"text":"沒有去做的"},{"start":10680.83,"end":10682.83,"text":"或者是具體勞動行政交代"},{"start":10684.29,"end":10686.29,"text":"20年前是講說"},{"start":10686.29,"end":10688.29,"text":"先求以再求法"},{"start":10688.54,"end":10690.54,"text":"好"},{"start":10694.49,"end":10696.49,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":10696.71,"end":10698.71,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10709.73,"end":10711.73,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":10711.73,"end":10713.73,"text":"張委員時間已到"},{"start":10713.73,"end":10715.73,"text":"如果張委員所關切的資料"},{"start":10715.73,"end":10717.73,"text":"麻煩請勞動部送張委員"},{"start":10717.73,"end":10719.73,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10719.73,"end":10721.73,"text":"謝謝卓院長 香港部會首長備詢"},{"start":10721.73,"end":10723.73,"text":"謝謝張委員的質詢"},{"start":10723.65,"end":10725.65,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10727.32,"end":10729.32,"text":"跟院會報告"},{"start":10729.32,"end":10731.32,"text":"我們一廠二樓旁聽來自雙北地區"},{"start":10731.32,"end":10733.32,"text":"家長聯誼會的好朋友們"},{"start":10733.32,"end":10735.32,"text":"我們掌聲歡迎各位"},{"start":10737.86,"end":10739.86,"text":"接下來我們請徐宇峥委員質詢"},{"start":10747.26,"end":10749.26,"text":"謝謝主席和院長"},{"start":10749.26,"end":10751.26,"text":"我們請卓文泰卓院長"},{"start":10751.26,"end":10753.26,"text":"麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":10752.76,"end":10754.76,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10760.04,"end":10762.04,"text":"卓院委員好"},{"start":10762.04,"end":10764.04,"text":"卓院長好"},{"start":10764.04,"end":10766.04,"text":"近期我們政府有規劃"},{"start":10766.04,"end":10768.04,"text":"要把我國的海巡的除役艦"},{"start":10768.04,"end":10770.04,"text":"整修之後"},{"start":10770.04,"end":10772.04,"text":"要原證給菲律賓"},{"start":10772.04,"end":10774.04,"text":"那引起漁民"},{"start":10774.04,"end":10776.04,"text":"極大的震撼跟焦慮"},{"start":10776.04,"end":10778.04,"text":"當然政府推動外交的合作"},{"start":10778.04,"end":10780.04,"text":"維護區域的海事的安全"},{"start":10780.04,"end":10782.04,"text":"尤其整體的戰略考量"},{"start":10782.04,"end":10784.04,"text":"那這點我們當然都理解"},{"start":10784.04,"end":10786.04,"text":"但是請教院長"},{"start":10786.04,"end":10788.04,"text":"政府不能忽略"},{"start":10788.04,"end":10790.04,"text":"那當時在2013年"},{"start":10790.04,"end":10792.04,"text":"所發生的廣大星28號事件"},{"start":10792.04,"end":10794.04,"text":"那當時非方執法人員"},{"start":10794.04,"end":10796.04,"text":"冷血開槍"},{"start":10796.04,"end":10798.04,"text":"導致我們的船長不幸身亡"},{"start":10797.63,"end":10799.63,"text":"到今天剛好是"},{"start":10799.63,"end":10801.63,"text":"過去的13年"},{"start":10801.63,"end":10803.63,"text":"但是對於全台的"},{"start":10803.63,"end":10805.63,"text":"這個廣大的漁民跟家屬來說"},{"start":10805.63,"end":10807.63,"text":"創傷依舊是"},{"start":10807.63,"end":10809.63,"text":"歷歷在目"},{"start":10809.63,"end":10811.63,"text":"那當然當政府大手筆的把我們"},{"start":10811.63,"end":10813.63,"text":"這個海巡艦整修好送給菲律賓"},{"start":10813.63,"end":10815.63,"text":"基層漁民"},{"start":10815.63,"end":10817.63,"text":"當然最沉痛的"},{"start":10817.63,"end":10819.63,"text":"這個疑問就是"},{"start":10819.63,"end":10821.63,"text":"這艘我們納稅人養過的船"},{"start":10821.63,"end":10823.63,"text":"送給這個菲律賓之後"},{"start":10823.63,"end":10825.63,"text":"會不會未來變成菲律賓"},{"start":10825.63,"end":10827.63,"text":"驅趕然後騷擾"},{"start":10827.63,"end":10829.63,"text":"甚至危害台灣漁船的工具"},{"start":10829.63,"end":10831.63,"text":"會不會哪一天"},{"start":10831.63,"end":10833.63,"text":"海巡署在這個"},{"start":10833.63,"end":10835.63,"text":"台飛的海域護漁的時候"},{"start":10835.63,"end":10837.63,"text":"會形成一個我們台灣的"},{"start":10837.63,"end":10839.63,"text":"海巡艦對峙"},{"start":10839.63,"end":10841.63,"text":"台灣的原陣艦"},{"start":10841.63,"end":10843.63,"text":"這樣的一個荒謬的現象"},{"start":10843.63,"end":10845.63,"text":"那院長我想這不只是情感的問題"},{"start":10845.63,"end":10847.63,"text":"還是很實際的一個"},{"start":10847.63,"end":10849.63,"text":"海上生存"},{"start":10849.63,"end":10851.63,"text":"作業安全跟國家"},{"start":10851.63,"end":10853.63,"text":"尊嚴的問題"},{"start":10853.63,"end":10855.63,"text":"海巡署其實一直強調說"},{"start":10855.63,"end":10857.63,"text":"這個原陣的協議已經宰民了"},{"start":10857.63,"end":10859.63,"text":"不得用於對台灣漁船的執法"},{"start":10859.63,"end":10861.63,"text":"但是我們想知道的是"},{"start":10861.63,"end":10863.63,"text":"如果他們違反"},{"start":10863.63,"end":10865.63,"text":"這樣的規定"},{"start":10865.63,"end":10867.63,"text":"政府有什麼樣的一個措施"},{"start":10867.63,"end":10869.63,"text":"好的許瑋文第一個"},{"start":10869.63,"end":10871.63,"text":"第一島鏈的合作"},{"start":10871.63,"end":10873.63,"text":"在維護印太地區和平穩定安全是必要的"},{"start":10873.63,"end":10875.63,"text":"所以我們會善盡我們的責任"},{"start":10875.63,"end":10877.63,"text":"同時剛剛委員提到"},{"start":10877.63,"end":10879.63,"text":"在政見的過程當中"},{"start":10879.63,"end":10881.63,"text":"雙方是有協議是會有條件的"},{"start":10881.63,"end":10883.63,"text":"那重點在未來怎麼執行"},{"start":10883.63,"end":10885.63,"text":"這部分請管制委員做說明"},{"start":10885.63,"end":10887.63,"text":"請問委員報告我們絕對是"},{"start":10887.63,"end":10889.63,"text":"保護漁民的"},{"start":10889.63,"end":10891.63,"text":"因為海巡從來就在海上"},{"start":10891.63,"end":10893.63,"text":"就是漁民背後最大的後盾"},{"start":10893.63,"end":10895.63,"text":"因此在贈送這一條船的時候"},{"start":10895.63,"end":10897.63,"text":"我們所簽訂的協議"},{"start":10897.63,"end":10899.63,"text":"非常非常嚴肅"},{"start":10899.63,"end":10901.63,"text":"而且完整的周全的保護了"},{"start":10901.63,"end":10903.63,"text":"我們的漁民跟漁船"},{"start":10903.63,"end":10905.63,"text":"未來這一條船絕對不可能"},{"start":10905.63,"end":10907.63,"text":"那請問什麼樣的協議再分給簡單的"},{"start":10907.63,"end":10909.63,"text":"說明一下嗎"},{"start":10909.79,"end":10911.79,"text":"我說針對這樣我們的原證的協議"},{"start":10911.79,"end":10913.79,"text":"在這邊可以簡單的說明一下"},{"start":10913.79,"end":10915.79,"text":"讓漁民安心嗎"},{"start":10915.79,"end":10917.79,"text":"對有關於相關的協議我們明白的"},{"start":10917.79,"end":10919.79,"text":"要求在這協議裡面"},{"start":10919.79,"end":10921.79,"text":"雙方已經協定這一艘船絕對"},{"start":10921.79,"end":10923.79,"text":"是用於民用"},{"start":10923.79,"end":10925.79,"text":"絕對不會編入任何的武裝"},{"start":10925.79,"end":10927.79,"text":"你說用於什麼使用"},{"start":10927.79,"end":10929.79,"text":"絕對不會用於任何的武裝跟軍事之所以"},{"start":10929.79,"end":10931.79,"text":"而且絕對不會用來"},{"start":10931.79,"end":10933.79,"text":"我們提到的菲律賓他把這條船"},{"start":10933.79,"end":10935.79,"text":"用為什麼使用"},{"start":10935.79,"end":10937.79,"text":"有護漁的條款就是絕對不會用來"},{"start":10937.79,"end":10939.79,"text":"所以你先回答我的問題"},{"start":10939.79,"end":10941.79,"text":"他是要作為什麼使用呢"},{"start":10941.79,"end":10943.79,"text":"這艘船是作為什麼使用菲律賓"},{"start":10943.79,"end":10945.79,"text":"無論是在海上的救生救難的執法"},{"start":10945.79,"end":10947.79,"text":"或者是海洋保育的執法"},{"start":10947.79,"end":10949.79,"text":"永續的海洋的執法"},{"start":10949.79,"end":10951.79,"text":"都是他們最主要的執法"},{"start":10951.79,"end":10953.79,"text":"他們最主要的執法的範圍是在這裡"},{"start":10953.79,"end":10955.79,"text":"而且絕對不會用來對於我們國的漁船執法"},{"start":10955.79,"end":10957.79,"text":"我們現在講"},{"start":10957.79,"end":10959.79,"text":"如果他們違反這樣的規定"},{"start":10959.79,"end":10961.79,"text":"我們有什麼樣的監督的機制呢"},{"start":10961.79,"end":10963.79,"text":"我們可以撤銷這個贈送的合約"},{"start":10963.79,"end":10965.79,"text":"我們可以要求"},{"start":10965.79,"end":10967.79,"text":"返還這艘船"},{"start":10970.13,"end":10972.13,"text":"好 將撤銷這個合約"},{"start":10972.13,"end":10974.13,"text":"返還這艘船都是之後的事情"},{"start":10974.13,"end":10976.13,"text":"那現在如果我們的漁民"},{"start":10976.13,"end":10978.13,"text":"在海上遇到"},{"start":10978.13,"end":10980.13,"text":"這樣子的一個事件的時候"},{"start":10980.13,"end":10982.13,"text":"那我們會怎麼樣來處理"},{"start":10982.13,"end":10984.13,"text":"政府怎麼介入來處理"},{"start":10984.13,"end":10986.13,"text":"我們一定是依這個協定"},{"start":10986.13,"end":10988.13,"text":"嚴格的來要求處理"},{"start":10988.13,"end":10990.13,"text":"另外跟委員報告 廣大星事件"},{"start":10990.13,"end":10992.13,"text":"造成了台飛海域"},{"start":10992.13,"end":10994.13,"text":"簽訂了漁業協定"},{"start":10994.13,"end":10996.13,"text":"這個協定簽訂以來"},{"start":10996.13,"end":10998.13,"text":"我們的漁船在海上是被菲律賓的"},{"start":10998.13,"end":11000.13,"text":"救手所救過的"},{"start":11000.13,"end":11002.13,"text":"而且救了兩次"},{"start":11002.13,"end":11004.13,"text":"這兩次菲律賓的海巡救我們的漁船"},{"start":11004.13,"end":11006.13,"text":"非常地接力"},{"start":11006.13,"end":11008.13,"text":"非常關心的就是"},{"start":11008.13,"end":11010.13,"text":"如果未來他們沒有"},{"start":11010.13,"end":11012.13,"text":"這樣子的做違反規定的時候"},{"start":11012.13,"end":11016.13,"text":"我們可以有什麼樣立即的措施"},{"start":11016.13,"end":11018.13,"text":"請你明確回答我"},{"start":11018.13,"end":11020.13,"text":"有沒有什麼立即的措施"},{"start":11020.13,"end":11022.13,"text":"要不然我放資訊沒有辦法"},{"start":11022.13,"end":11024.13,"text":"資訊下去"},{"start":11024.13,"end":11026.13,"text":"因為你一直在回答我的"},{"start":11026.13,"end":11028.13,"text":"更不是我問的問題"},{"start":11028.13,"end":11030.13,"text":"我只想問答請主委"},{"start":11030.13,"end":11032.13,"text":"到底如果他們違反協議"},{"start":11032.13,"end":11034.13,"text":"我們有什麼立即的措施"},{"start":11034.13,"end":11036.13,"text":"是的 菲律賓在他們的"},{"start":11036.13,"end":11038.13,"text":"搜救責任區"},{"start":11038.13,"end":11040.13,"text":"要救我們的漁船的時候"},{"start":11040.13,"end":11042.13,"text":"救生救難的時候"},{"start":11042.13,"end":11044.13,"text":"有更好的能力"},{"start":11044.13,"end":11046.13,"text":"所以反而是對我們會有更大的保障"},{"start":11046.13,"end":11048.13,"text":"委員 廣大星事件我們簽訂協定以後"},{"start":11048.13,"end":11050.13,"text":"菲律賓的空軍報告是"},{"start":11050.13,"end":11052.13,"text":"救我們漁船的部隊"},{"start":11052.13,"end":11054.13,"text":"救我們漁船的部隊"},{"start":11054.13,"end":11056.13,"text":"我先請教院長"},{"start":11056.13,"end":11058.13,"text":"就是剛剛主委有講到說"},{"start":11058.13,"end":11060.13,"text":"原證菲律賓這艘船是"},{"start":11060.13,"end":11062.13,"text":"作為人道救援"},{"start":11062.13,"end":11064.13,"text":"但是台灣自己的漁業救援能量"},{"start":11064.13,"end":11066.13,"text":"同樣不足"},{"start":11066.13,"end":11068.13,"text":"所以決定要把這艘艦"},{"start":11068.13,"end":11070.13,"text":"送給菲律賓的時候"},{"start":11070.13,"end":11072.13,"text":"讓我們把題目問完"},{"start":11072.13,"end":11074.13,"text":"請暫停"},{"start":11074.13,"end":11076.13,"text":"麻煩背行的官員不要搶答"},{"start":11076.13,"end":11078.13,"text":"讓我們問資訊委員"},{"start":11078.13,"end":11080.13,"text":"好 請繼續"},{"start":11080.13,"end":11082.13,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":11082.13,"end":11084.13,"text":"好 學員請繼續"},{"start":11084.13,"end":11086.13,"text":"請教院長"},{"start":11086.13,"end":11088.13,"text":"對不起"},{"start":11090.03,"end":11092.03,"text":"那時間要還我"},{"start":11092.03,"end":11094.03,"text":"院長 剛剛有講到"},{"start":11094.03,"end":11096.03,"text":"原證菲律賓這艘船"},{"start":11096.03,"end":11098.03,"text":"是作為人道救援"},{"start":11098.03,"end":11100.03,"text":"但台灣自己的漁業救援能量"},{"start":11100.03,"end":11102.03,"text":"其實同樣不足"},{"start":11102.03,"end":11104.03,"text":"所以說在我們決定要把"},{"start":11104.03,"end":11106.03,"text":"這艘船送給菲律賓之前"},{"start":11106.03,"end":11108.03,"text":"有沒有先評估過國內的"},{"start":11108.03,"end":11110.03,"text":"需求 有沒有需要救援"},{"start":11110.03,"end":11112.03,"text":"我跟委員報告一定是有的"},{"start":11112.03,"end":11114.03,"text":"那目前"},{"start":11114.03,"end":11116.03,"text":"目前在新增購的這些"},{"start":11116.03,"end":11118.03,"text":"新增艦的船艦也都相當的數量"},{"start":11118.03,"end":11120.03,"text":"逐年在增加"},{"start":11120.03,"end":11122.03,"text":"我們把舊有的船艦去做這樣的一個交往"},{"start":11122.03,"end":11124.03,"text":"我想請問"},{"start":11124.03,"end":11126.03,"text":"院長 我們目前"},{"start":11126.03,"end":11128.03,"text":"台灣有幾艘救護船"},{"start":11129.04,"end":11133.04,"text":"跟委員報告 我們所有的船都可以用來救護"},{"start":11133.04,"end":11135.04,"text":"請問我們所有的海巡艦都可以用來救護"},{"start":11135.04,"end":11137.04,"text":"是救人"},{"start":11137.04,"end":11139.04,"text":"還是救船"},{"start":11139.04,"end":11141.04,"text":"我們救護 當然是救生救難"},{"start":11141.04,"end":11143.04,"text":"救人各船都幫忙"},{"start":11143.04,"end":11145.04,"text":"救救救人 並沒有拖船"},{"start":11145.04,"end":11147.04,"text":"當然小船就沒有辦法拖帶"},{"start":11147.04,"end":11149.04,"text":"大船就有辦法拖帶"},{"start":11149.04,"end":11151.04,"text":"所以現在的問題就是海上的一些"},{"start":11151.04,"end":11153.04,"text":"這艘船是除役的船 委員"},{"start":11153.04,"end":11155.04,"text":"我知道是除役的船"},{"start":11155.04,"end":11157.04,"text":"可是台灣的救護能量"},{"start":11157.04,"end":11159.04,"text":"剛剛您講的"},{"start":11159.04,"end":11161.04,"text":"每一艘海巡艦都可以救人"},{"start":11161.04,"end":11163.04,"text":"但他沒有辦法救船"},{"start":11163.04,"end":11165.04,"text":"所以我現在要問的是"},{"start":11165.04,"end":11167.04,"text":"當可以拖帶 不是每一艘35噸就沒辦法"},{"start":11167.04,"end":11169.04,"text":"但是新100噸"},{"start":11169.04,"end":11171.04,"text":"我們甚至於都可以拖帶"},{"start":11171.04,"end":11173.04,"text":"所以目前有這樣子的一個"},{"start":11173.04,"end":11175.04,"text":"這個執法的一個狀況"},{"start":11175.04,"end":11177.04,"text":"就如果我們的漁船"},{"start":11177.04,"end":11179.04,"text":"在海上遇到的這樣子"},{"start":11179.04,"end":11181.04,"text":"需要救援"},{"start":11181.04,"end":11183.04,"text":"需要把他們的船推回來的時候"},{"start":11183.04,"end":11185.04,"text":"海巡署的我們的海巡艦可以這樣做嗎"},{"start":11185.04,"end":11187.04,"text":"符合有急迫的條件的部分"},{"start":11187.04,"end":11189.04,"text":"我們會拖帶"},{"start":11189.04,"end":11191.04,"text":"主委 我現在請教你的是"},{"start":11191.04,"end":11193.04,"text":"到底目前可不可以這樣執行"},{"start":11193.04,"end":11195.04,"text":"海上的護助"},{"start":11195.04,"end":11197.04,"text":"經常有 而且海上的護助"},{"start":11197.04,"end":11199.04,"text":"所以我們可以幫忙拖帶"},{"start":11199.04,"end":11201.04,"text":"這個我從漁民那邊得到的訊息"},{"start":11201.04,"end":11203.04,"text":"完全不一樣"},{"start":11203.04,"end":11205.04,"text":"可能請主委"},{"start":11205.04,"end":11207.04,"text":"您要回去瞭解清楚"},{"start":11207.04,"end":11209.04,"text":"海上的護助跟海巡的拖帶都有"},{"start":11209.04,"end":11211.04,"text":"因為我們現在其實"},{"start":11211.04,"end":11213.04,"text":"台灣的救護能量"},{"start":11213.04,"end":11215.04,"text":"是相當不足的"},{"start":11215.04,"end":11217.04,"text":"目前台灣的救護船"},{"start":11217.04,"end":11219.04,"text":"就我瞭解"},{"start":11219.04,"end":11221.04,"text":"就只有宜安六號"},{"start":11221.04,"end":11223.04,"text":"就只有宜安六號 這還是屬於宜蘭縣政府的"},{"start":11223.04,"end":11225.04,"text":"也就是說"},{"start":11225.04,"end":11227.04,"text":"當我們台灣的漁民需要這樣的"},{"start":11227.04,"end":11229.04,"text":"救護的時候 事實上"},{"start":11229.04,"end":11231.04,"text":"他們是沒有這樣子的救護能量"},{"start":11231.04,"end":11233.04,"text":"只要有救生救命"},{"start":11233.04,"end":11235.04,"text":"危險 我們絕對"},{"start":11235.04,"end":11237.04,"text":"絕對是一定要救"},{"start":11237.04,"end":11239.04,"text":"那為什麼漁民有這麼多的疑慮呢"},{"start":11239.04,"end":11241.04,"text":"應該是"},{"start":11241.04,"end":11243.04,"text":"是不會的委員"},{"start":11243.04,"end":11245.04,"text":"如果漁民有救生救命需要"},{"start":11245.04,"end":11247.04,"text":"而海巡沒有救的話"},{"start":11247.04,"end":11249.04,"text":"我們也不能容許"},{"start":11249.04,"end":11251.04,"text":"我們也不能容許"},{"start":11251.04,"end":11253.04,"text":"所以請主委可能這個部分"},{"start":11253.04,"end":11255.04,"text":"要請您先 要不然我待會就請您先回座"},{"start":11255.04,"end":11257.04,"text":"因為漁民有救生救命"},{"start":11257.04,"end":11259.04,"text":"急迫性的部院"},{"start":11259.04,"end":11261.04,"text":"是漁船護助拖帶"},{"start":11261.04,"end":11263.04,"text":"為優先 跟委員報告"},{"start":11263.04,"end":11265.04,"text":"在海上的救援"},{"start":11265.04,"end":11267.04,"text":"有一定的不同的條件"},{"start":11267.04,"end":11269.04,"text":"有不同的救援的方式"},{"start":11269.04,"end":11271.04,"text":"請問可以暫停"},{"start":11270.69,"end":11272.69,"text":"時間暫停 請"},{"start":11273.93,"end":11275.93,"text":"請 想表達什麼 沒關係"},{"start":11275.93,"end":11277.93,"text":"我是想說這個部分"},{"start":11277.93,"end":11279.93,"text":"既然我今天質詢的是卓文泰院長"},{"start":11279.93,"end":11281.93,"text":"那我"},{"start":11281.93,"end":11283.93,"text":"詢問的問題就請院長"},{"start":11283.93,"end":11285.93,"text":"那當院長如果請主委回答"},{"start":11285.93,"end":11287.93,"text":"可以提出要求 沒問題"},{"start":11287.93,"end":11289.93,"text":"麻煩請卓院長答覆"},{"start":11289.93,"end":11291.93,"text":"是 我跟委員報告的過程當中"},{"start":11291.93,"end":11293.93,"text":"應該需要的時候"},{"start":11293.93,"end":11295.93,"text":"由部會首長來做補充說明"},{"start":11295.93,"end":11297.93,"text":"這也是立法有據的"},{"start":11297.93,"end":11299.93,"text":"也請委員報告"},{"start":11299.93,"end":11301.93,"text":"但是我的意思是說 既然我請院長回答"},{"start":11301.93,"end":11303.93,"text":"也讓主委回答"},{"start":11303.93,"end":11305.93,"text":"但是還是希望說那個時間"},{"start":11305.93,"end":11307.93,"text":"要控制一下"},{"start":11307.93,"end":11309.93,"text":"主委有很多的資訊要跟委員報告"},{"start":11309.93,"end":11311.93,"text":"所以針對這個部分"},{"start":11311.93,"end":11313.93,"text":"我們希望就是說現在漁民"},{"start":11313.93,"end":11315.93,"text":"甚至包括社會各界"},{"start":11315.93,"end":11317.93,"text":"大家都非常憂慮的就是我剛講那個狀況"},{"start":11317.93,"end":11319.93,"text":"萬一有一天"},{"start":11319.93,"end":11321.93,"text":"是我們台灣的海巡艦"},{"start":11321.93,"end":11323.93,"text":"在這個台飛的海域上"},{"start":11323.93,"end":11325.93,"text":"遇到了這個台灣的原陣艦"},{"start":11325.93,"end":11327.93,"text":"這樣一個對峙的狀況"},{"start":11327.93,"end":11329.93,"text":"那當時我們要怎麼做"},{"start":11329.93,"end":11331.93,"text":"那當然我們也要去做一些"},{"start":11331.93,"end":11333.93,"text":"比較具體的調查"},{"start":11333.93,"end":11335.93,"text":"所以我們在這邊呢"},{"start":11335.93,"end":11337.93,"text":"也要具體的"},{"start":11337.93,"end":11339.93,"text":"向這個我們的行政院提出"},{"start":11339.93,"end":11341.93,"text":"四項的一個要求"},{"start":11341.93,"end":11343.93,"text":"第一個就是"},{"start":11343.93,"end":11345.93,"text":"向漁民說明我們"},{"start":11345.93,"end":11347.93,"text":"政見協議的保障內容範圍"},{"start":11347.93,"end":11349.93,"text":"跟違反約定時的處理方式"},{"start":11349.93,"end":11351.93,"text":"讓我們的漁民能夠很清楚"},{"start":11351.93,"end":11353.93,"text":"我們的政府在違反約定"},{"start":11353.93,"end":11355.93,"text":"這個對方違反約定之後的"},{"start":11355.93,"end":11357.93,"text":"交涉跟處理的程序"},{"start":11357.93,"end":11359.93,"text":"第二點就是把漁民的安全"},{"start":11359.93,"end":11361.93,"text":"列為台飛海事合作的"},{"start":11361.93,"end":11363.93,"text":"定期議題"},{"start":11363.93,"end":11365.93,"text":"雙研究透過既有的台飛漁業"},{"start":11365.93,"end":11367.93,"text":"執法合作的一個機制"},{"start":11367.93,"end":11369.93,"text":"定期的檢討"},{"start":11369.93,"end":11371.93,"text":"海上的通報"},{"start":11371.93,"end":11373.93,"text":"緊急聯繫跟爭議的處理"},{"start":11373.93,"end":11375.93,"text":"那一旦有涉及到我們的漁船"},{"start":11375.93,"end":11377.93,"text":"也希望能夠讓船長"},{"start":11377.93,"end":11379.93,"text":"跟漁民、漁會"},{"start":11379.93,"end":11381.93,"text":"都有明確的緊急通報的窗口"},{"start":11381.93,"end":11383.93,"text":"並說明處理的進度"},{"start":11383.93,"end":11385.93,"text":"那第三個就是"},{"start":11385.93,"end":11387.93,"text":"第三個就是希望建立"},{"start":11387.93,"end":11389.93,"text":"除意見員外前的國內"},{"start":11389.93,"end":11391.93,"text":"需求的一個評估"},{"start":11391.93,"end":11393.93,"text":"就像我剛剛講的就是說"},{"start":11393.93,"end":11395.93,"text":"到底我們國內的需求是什麼"},{"start":11395.93,"end":11397.93,"text":"那目前在我們"},{"start":11397.93,"end":11399.93,"text":"在國內的各項的一個"},{"start":11399.93,"end":11401.93,"text":"一個海域上"},{"start":11401.93,"end":11403.93,"text":"是不是有可以這樣需要的"},{"start":11403.93,"end":11405.93,"text":"救難船的需求"},{"start":11405.93,"end":11407.93,"text":"那評估結果也應該公開"},{"start":11407.93,"end":11409.93,"text":"讓漁民知道"},{"start":11409.93,"end":11411.93,"text":"那第四個就是研擬配置"},{"start":11411.93,"end":11413.93,"text":"專職的救援船"},{"start":11413.93,"end":11415.93,"text":"並編足長期的營運經費"},{"start":11415.93,"end":11417.93,"text":"因為"},{"start":11418.11,"end":11420.11,"text":"宜安六號的漁業"},{"start":11420.11,"end":11422.11,"text":"巡護救難的一個用途"},{"start":11422.11,"end":11424.11,"text":"目前事實上"},{"start":11424.11,"end":11426.11,"text":"它的這個妥善率還不夠"},{"start":11426.11,"end":11428.11,"text":"我們希望能夠有妥善率較高的"},{"start":11428.11,"end":11430.11,"text":"能夠救援的專責的救援船"},{"start":11430.11,"end":11432.11,"text":"讓我們的漁民在海上"},{"start":11432.11,"end":11434.11,"text":"的作業能夠"},{"start":11434.11,"end":11436.11,"text":"沒有任何的一個憂慮"},{"start":11436.11,"end":11438.11,"text":"那所以在這邊"},{"start":11438.11,"end":11440.11,"text":"這四項請教一下院長"},{"start":11440.11,"end":11442.11,"text":"是不是可以同意"},{"start":11442.11,"end":11444.11,"text":"讓我們的各部隊來去"},{"start":11444.11,"end":11446.11,"text":"第一項凡涉及跟我漁民相關的權益"},{"start":11446.11,"end":11448.11,"text":"或安全保障等等的"},{"start":11448.11,"end":11450.11,"text":"有必要讓漁民更了解的"},{"start":11450.11,"end":11452.11,"text":"這個當然沒有問題"},{"start":11452.11,"end":11454.11,"text":"第二項漁民安全"},{"start":11454.11,"end":11456.11,"text":"我想這個基於雙方互惠"},{"start":11456.11,"end":11458.11,"text":"都應該彼此有這樣的認知"},{"start":11458.11,"end":11460.11,"text":"如果有進一步的協商"},{"start":11460.11,"end":11462.11,"text":"海委會跟我們現在單位"},{"start":11460.38,"end":11462.38,"text":"周遭國家的合作"},{"start":11462.38,"end":11464.38,"text":"跟各種協議都經常在舉行"},{"start":11464.38,"end":11466.38,"text":"這個基於雙方互惠"},{"start":11466.38,"end":11468.38,"text":"我們一定會把它列為優先"},{"start":11468.38,"end":11470.38,"text":"下面三四兩點都目前"},{"start":11470.38,"end":11472.38,"text":"已經在進行的"},{"start":11472.38,"end":11474.38,"text":"已經就是這樣在做的"},{"start":11474.38,"end":11476.38,"text":"所以我們現在有專責的救援船"},{"start":11476.38,"end":11478.38,"text":"有編足長期營運的經費嗎"},{"start":11478.38,"end":11480.38,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":11480.38,"end":11482.38,"text":"我們所有的海巡他們在"},{"start":11482.38,"end":11484.38,"text":"有需要救援的時候每一艘船"},{"start":11484.38,"end":11486.38,"text":"都要當作是救援的船隻"},{"start":11486.38,"end":11488.38,"text":"所以委員如果認為說有"},{"start":11488.38,"end":11490.38,"text":"譬如說地方政府他們要有"},{"start":11490.38,"end":11492.38,"text":"專責的救援船"},{"start":11492.38,"end":11494.38,"text":"如果他們願意有那種計畫"},{"start":11494.38,"end":11496.38,"text":"需要我們來協助爭取經費的話"},{"start":11496.38,"end":11498.38,"text":"我們會來協助"},{"start":11498.38,"end":11500.38,"text":"我們還是希望中央政府有專責的救援船"},{"start":11500.38,"end":11502.38,"text":"當然您剛剛講海巡署現在在做"},{"start":11502.38,"end":11504.38,"text":"不過就我的了解"},{"start":11504.38,"end":11506.38,"text":"我想主委也要再去了解"},{"start":11506.38,"end":11508.38,"text":"目前事實上是救人"},{"start":11508.38,"end":11510.38,"text":"對於拖船的部分救船的部分"},{"start":11510.38,"end":11512.38,"text":"目前並沒有做這樣的事情"},{"start":11512.38,"end":11514.38,"text":"我們還是希望這個部分"},{"start":11514.38,"end":11516.38,"text":"還是要了解真正漁民的需求"},{"start":11516.38,"end":11518.38,"text":"保障漁民的安全"},{"start":11518.38,"end":11520.38,"text":"才是我覺得一個政府應該做的事情"},{"start":11520.38,"end":11522.38,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":11523.38,"end":11525.38,"text":"來接下來請教一下院長"},{"start":11525.38,"end":11527.38,"text":"就是"},{"start":11526.7,"end":11528.7,"text":"臺美對等關係"},{"start":11528.7,"end":11530.7,"text":"這個臺灣對等貿易協議"},{"start":11530.7,"end":11532.7,"text":"第三點九條規定"},{"start":11532.7,"end":11534.7,"text":"就是在協定生效三年內"},{"start":11536.79,"end":11538.79,"text":"要達到這個在製造業"},{"start":11538.79,"end":11540.79,"text":"跟漁撈業的勞工"},{"start":11540.79,"end":11542.79,"text":"收取招募費"},{"start":11542.79,"end":11544.79,"text":"能夠零收費"},{"start":11544.79,"end":11546.79,"text":"那當然這是接軌國際勞動"},{"start":11546.79,"end":11548.79,"text":"的一個規範"},{"start":11548.79,"end":11550.79,"text":"保障移工的權益"},{"start":11550.79,"end":11552.79,"text":"當然這個部分要減少"},{"start":11552.79,"end":11554.79,"text":"他們不合理的招募的一個負債"},{"start":11554.79,"end":11556.79,"text":"這個本席當然支持"},{"start":11556.79,"end":11558.79,"text":"但是政府對外"},{"start":11558.79,"end":11560.79,"text":"做出承諾也要顧及國內"},{"start":11560.79,"end":11562.79,"text":"的一個產業的承受的力量"},{"start":11562.79,"end":11564.79,"text":"所以我們"},{"start":11564.79,"end":11566.79,"text":"希望保障移工"},{"start":11566.79,"end":11568.79,"text":"但不要犧牲我們"},{"start":11568.79,"end":11570.79,"text":"臺灣漁民最基本的一個生存權"},{"start":11570.79,"end":11572.79,"text":"那所以呢"},{"start":11574,"end":11576,"text":"我們現在看到"},{"start":11576,"end":11578,"text":"當這個Arts目前的"},{"start":11578,"end":11580,"text":"這個協議出來之後說要在三年內"},{"start":11580,"end":11582,"text":"那但是呢"},{"start":11582,"end":11584,"text":"我們可以看到現在連"},{"start":11584,"end":11586,"text":"移工的合理招募成本"},{"start":11586,"end":11588,"text":"都沒有明確的標準"},{"start":11588,"end":11590,"text":"那因為其實我們"},{"start":11590,"end":11592,"text":"在沿海的這個"},{"start":11592,"end":11594,"text":"競小漁船"},{"start":11594,"end":11596,"text":"競小型的漁船其實非常的多"},{"start":11596,"end":11598,"text":"那他們不像大漁船或者是"},{"start":11598,"end":11600,"text":"這個遠洋漁業"},{"start":11600,"end":11602,"text":"他們的負擔能力不同"},{"start":11602,"end":11604,"text":"那漁船呢他的收入會看天候"},{"start":11604,"end":11606,"text":"看漁訓還有看他們的漁價"},{"start":11606,"end":11608,"text":"那增加的每一筆成本"},{"start":11608,"end":11610,"text":"都可能直接影響"},{"start":11610,"end":11612,"text":"他的生計"},{"start":11612,"end":11614,"text":"所以說這可能不算是公平的招募"},{"start":11614,"end":11616,"text":"而是有可能算是一種政策"},{"start":11616,"end":11618,"text":"在霸凌漁民"},{"start":11618,"end":11620,"text":"所以院長您知道"},{"start":11620,"end":11622,"text":"雇主招募的費用有哪些嗎"},{"start":11623.16,"end":11625.16,"text":"包括他的交通費啦"},{"start":11625.16,"end":11627.16,"text":"仲介費等等"},{"start":11626.55,"end":11628.55,"text":"他有三樣喔就是國外仲介費"},{"start":11628.55,"end":11630.55,"text":"第三方雇用費跟"},{"start":11630.55,"end":11632.55,"text":"雇主直接招募費"},{"start":11632.55,"end":11634.55,"text":"那我想勞動部在八月份的時候"},{"start":11634.55,"end":11636.55,"text":"有發函給農業部"},{"start":11636.55,"end":11638.55,"text":"說會跟來源國"},{"start":11638.55,"end":11640.55,"text":"協商確認來源"},{"start":11640.55,"end":11642.55,"text":"這個第三方的"},{"start":11642.55,"end":11644.55,"text":"這個仲介的一個費用"},{"start":11644.55,"end":11646.55,"text":"那請問一下勞動部長現在的進度如何"},{"start":11648.08,"end":11650.08,"text":"跟委員說明喔"},{"start":11650.08,"end":11652.08,"text":"第一個這裡面的確會有一個工作"},{"start":11652.08,"end":11654.08,"text":"是我們應該來"},{"start":11654.08,"end":11656.08,"text":"也要把"},{"start":11656.08,"end":11658.08,"text":"在海外的仲介費"},{"start":11658.08,"end":11660.08,"text":"那他的收費的狀況怎麼樣能夠做"},{"start":11660.08,"end":11662.08,"text":"更透明化的掌握"},{"start":11662.08,"end":11664.08,"text":"因為避免在裡面其實有很多"},{"start":11664.08,"end":11666.08,"text":"對我了解那請問一下"},{"start":11666.08,"end":11668.08,"text":"目前正在進行"},{"start":11668.08,"end":11670.08,"text":"那大概什麼時候"},{"start":11670.08,"end":11672.08,"text":"會完成"},{"start":11672.08,"end":11674.08,"text":"我們認為今年的"},{"start":11674.08,"end":11676.08,"text":"應該是今年下半年到明年上半年"},{"start":11676.08,"end":11678.08,"text":"那事實上這些漁業界都在"},{"start":11678.08,"end":11680.08,"text":"等你們的這個招募的"},{"start":11680.08,"end":11682.08,"text":"相關費用他們要去計算他們的成本"},{"start":11682.08,"end":11684.08,"text":"因為對於小型漁船"},{"start":11684.08,"end":11686.08,"text":"來說他們其實可能就兩個人"},{"start":11686.08,"end":11688.08,"text":"三個人你再多增加這麼多"},{"start":11688.08,"end":11690.08,"text":"這麼大的一個費用事實上"},{"start":11690.08,"end":11692.08,"text":"對他們來說的負擔是相當重"},{"start":11692.08,"end":11694.08,"text":"那我也想請教一下"},{"start":11694.08,"end":11696.08,"text":"那你們像有沒有預估就是我們這個"},{"start":11696.08,"end":11698.08,"text":"雇主的招募費大概有多少"},{"start":11699.65,"end":11701.65,"text":"當然會依據來源國不同"},{"start":11701.65,"end":11703.65,"text":"對其實因為不同的國家"},{"start":11703.65,"end":11705.65,"text":"其實是不太一樣的"},{"start":11705.65,"end":11709.65,"text":"那現在的確我們也在跟來源國正在討論"},{"start":11709.65,"end":11711.65,"text":"因為來源國其實也在跟我們討論說"},{"start":11712.5,"end":11714.5,"text":"因為現在有幾個來源國他們也越來越"},{"start":11714.5,"end":11716.5,"text":"重視公平招募的這個概念"},{"start":11716.5,"end":11718.5,"text":"可是當來源國重視公平招募"},{"start":11718.5,"end":11720.5,"text":"的概念的時候大家也要去確保"},{"start":11720.5,"end":11722.5,"text":"他的收費不會造成"},{"start":11722.5,"end":11724.5,"text":"這個"},{"start":11724.44,"end":11726.44,"text":"尤其是台灣的雇主"},{"start":11726.44,"end":11728.44,"text":"不合理的"},{"start":11728.44,"end":11730.44,"text":"你們有先評估過大概是多少費用嗎"},{"start":11730.44,"end":11732.44,"text":"因為不可能千萬的"},{"start":11732.44,"end":11734.44,"text":"18到20萬左右以我們了解"},{"start":11734.44,"end":11736.44,"text":"我順便跟委員補充一下"},{"start":11736.44,"end":11738.44,"text":"因為委員非常"},{"start":11738.3,"end":11740.3,"text":"不會到這麼高的金額"},{"start":11740.3,"end":11742.3,"text":"我要跟委員說"},{"start":11742.3,"end":11744.3,"text":"那你剛剛說多少"},{"start":11744.51,"end":11746.51,"text":"我剛才說的是"},{"start":11746.51,"end":11748.51,"text":"我們還沒有政策進場之前"},{"start":11748.51,"end":11754.51,"text":"現在目前的行情他們所回饋的是18到20萬"},{"start":11754.51,"end":11758.51,"text":"但是他還會扣除一些其他的費用會回給他"},{"start":11758.51,"end":11760.51,"text":"所以可能到12到15萬之間"},{"start":11760.51,"end":11764.51,"text":"那是經過漁船的傳統他們所回饋的"},{"start":11764.51,"end":11768.51,"text":"本席所掌握的資訊是大概18萬左右"},{"start":11768.51,"end":11770.51,"text":"那剛剛勞動部長說沒那麼多嘛"},{"start":11770.51,"end":11772.51,"text":"那是多少"},{"start":11772.51,"end":11774.51,"text":"跟委員說明"},{"start":11774.51,"end":11778.51,"text":"第一個因為他過去其實是跟移工來收"},{"start":11778.51,"end":11780.51,"text":"所以移工會被收的金額會比較高"},{"start":11781.6,"end":11785.6,"text":"移工跟這個仲介之間"},{"start":11785.6,"end":11787.6,"text":"他的協商能力是比較低的"},{"start":11787.6,"end":11789.6,"text":"部長既然你已經開念一段時候"},{"start":11789.6,"end":11791.6,"text":"你只要告訴我是多少就好"},{"start":11791.6,"end":11793.6,"text":"我們目前看到跟部長收的錢"},{"start":11793.6,"end":11797.6,"text":"基本上都會比跟移工來收的來的低蠻多的"},{"start":11797.6,"end":11799.6,"text":"那我們現在正在確認"},{"start":11799.6,"end":11801.6,"text":"現在收的這個金額的幅度會低到什麼程度"},{"start":11801.6,"end":11803.6,"text":"那我們也在跟來源國的證據"},{"start":11803.6,"end":11805.6,"text":"是指多少"},{"start":11805.6,"end":11807.6,"text":"剛剛陳部長已經講了嘛"},{"start":11807.6,"end":11809.6,"text":"大概12到15萬"},{"start":11809.6,"end":11811.6,"text":"那如果可能狀況不一定都一樣"},{"start":11811.6,"end":11813.6,"text":"好那你先舉個例"},{"start":11813.49,"end":11815.49,"text":"哪個國 比如說越南多少"},{"start":11815.49,"end":11817.49,"text":"印尼多少"},{"start":11817.49,"end":11819.49,"text":"越南確實是比較高的"},{"start":11819.49,"end":11821.49,"text":"越南確實是比較高的"},{"start":11821.49,"end":11823.49,"text":"大概是多少"},{"start":11823.49,"end":11825.49,"text":"我其實現在不好直接去講一個數字"},{"start":11825.49,"end":11827.49,"text":"但我的確說"},{"start":11827.49,"end":11833.49,"text":"過去跟移工收的確是收的比較高"},{"start":11833.49,"end":11837.49,"text":"但是現在其實有在做公平招募的雇主"},{"start":11837.49,"end":11839.49,"text":"目前他們回饋給我們的意見是"},{"start":11839.49,"end":11841.49,"text":"他們其實被收的金額比"},{"start":11841.49,"end":11845.49,"text":"跟移工收來的低蠻多的"},{"start":11845.49,"end":11849.49,"text":"那請問一下我們在簽訂這個Arch之前"},{"start":11849.49,"end":11851.49,"text":"你們都沒有先做過評估嗎"},{"start":11851.49,"end":11853.49,"text":"大概會退移雇主增加多少的費用"},{"start":11853.49,"end":11855.49,"text":"然後就這樣就簽下去了之後"},{"start":11855.49,"end":11857.49,"text":"那未來的雇主沒辦法負擔怎麼辦"},{"start":11857.49,"end":11859.49,"text":"我跟委員報告"},{"start":11859.49,"end":11861.49,"text":"台美關稅在簽署三年之內"},{"start":11861.49,"end":11863.49,"text":"是要把外籍的這些船員"},{"start":11863.49,"end":11865.49,"text":"移工比照國內的權益"},{"start":11865.49,"end":11867.49,"text":"這是一個非常重要的"},{"start":11867.49,"end":11869.49,"text":"這是一個非常重要的"},{"start":11869.49,"end":11871.49,"text":"那他整個權益的部分"},{"start":11871.49,"end":11873.49,"text":"包括他的生活條件他的勞動條件"},{"start":11873.49,"end":11875.49,"text":"所以我剛說這個接軌合計的回返"},{"start":11875.49,"end":11877.49,"text":"我們是支持的嗎"},{"start":11877.49,"end":11881.49,"text":"所以您就回到這個招募會本身是其中的一個因素"},{"start":11881.49,"end":11883.49,"text":"那我們現在正在解決"},{"start":11883.49,"end":11885.49,"text":"我們的遠洋漁業最大的困擾"},{"start":11885.49,"end":11887.49,"text":"就是他招募了以後"},{"start":11887.49,"end":11889.49,"text":"開始他上船就會暈船"},{"start":11889.49,"end":11891.49,"text":"甚至於沒辦法捕魚"},{"start":11891.49,"end":11893.49,"text":"這段時間可能到半年到一年"},{"start":11893.49,"end":11895.49,"text":"他都還在訓練"},{"start":11895.49,"end":11897.49,"text":"但是他還要付這些招募費"},{"start":11897.49,"end":11899.49,"text":"所以招募費在協商"},{"start":11899.49,"end":11901.49,"text":"在用直聘的方式"},{"start":11901.49,"end":11903.49,"text":"我們跟勞動部配合以外"},{"start":11903.49,"end":11905.49,"text":"一個更重要也是船員"},{"start":11905.49,"end":11907.49,"text":"更需要的就是他們進來以後"},{"start":11907.49,"end":11909.49,"text":"我們用其他的"},{"start":11909.49,"end":11911.49,"text":"其他的"},{"start":11911.2,"end":11915.2,"text":"那個經費來支持他去做這些船員的一個訓練"},{"start":11915.2,"end":11919.2,"text":"讓他們上船以後就馬上能夠去捕魚"},{"start":11919.2,"end":11921.2,"text":"這個是他們更需要的"},{"start":11921.2,"end":11923.2,"text":"我們當然都支持照顧外來的移工"},{"start":11923.2,"end":11926.2,"text":"但是我們自己台灣的這個僱主"},{"start":11926.2,"end":11928.2,"text":"我們要讓他們能夠生存"},{"start":11928.2,"end":11930.2,"text":"所以除了這個問題之外"},{"start":11930.2,"end":11932.2,"text":"還有包括說事實上外籍移工"},{"start":11932.2,"end":11933.2,"text":"如果到時候"},{"start":11933.2,"end":11935.2,"text":"比如說我們付的這個招募費他沒有來"},{"start":11935.2,"end":11937.2,"text":"或者是逃跑逃逸外勞"},{"start":11937.2,"end":11939.2,"text":"那這樣的狀況的話"},{"start":11939.2,"end":11941.2,"text":"應該要訂立一個標準讓他們有所徵詢"},{"start":11942.92,"end":11944.92,"text":"跟委員說明"},{"start":11945.73,"end":11949.73,"text":"現在我們在這個台美的ART裡面的條文是指的是說"},{"start":11949.73,"end":11951.73,"text":"在他的聘僱期間"},{"start":11951.73,"end":11954.73,"text":"要把這個招募費來做支付"},{"start":11954.73,"end":11957.73,"text":"所以不一定一定是指那個一開始的當下"},{"start":11957.73,"end":11960.73,"text":"其實他是有一段時間可以陸陸續續來支付的"},{"start":11960.73,"end":11963.73,"text":"所以我們也有注意到就是假如"},{"start":11963.73,"end":11966.73,"text":"這個移工如果他遇到失聯的問題的話"},{"start":11966.73,"end":11969.73,"text":"這當然是僱主會是一個很大的損失"},{"start":11969.73,"end":11971.73,"text":"所以我們也會希望能夠把僱主在"},{"start":11971.73,"end":11974.73,"text":"他假設遇到失聯這樣的狀況的權益"},{"start":11974.73,"end":11976.73,"text":"跟剛剛就像陳部長講到說"},{"start":11976.73,"end":11978.73,"text":"整體大家對於這樣的僱主"},{"start":11978.73,"end":11982.73,"text":"從勞動部從農業部一起來給他支持"},{"start":11982.73,"end":11984.73,"text":"在哪些環節上面"},{"start":11984.73,"end":11987.73,"text":"我們既可以符合接軌國際的要求"},{"start":11987.73,"end":11992.73,"text":"但又希望能夠給我們的僱主有更多的支持"},{"start":11992.73,"end":11994.73,"text":"我們當然要顧及僱主的生存"},{"start":11996.16,"end":11998.16,"text":"除了僱主的這個生存之外"},{"start":11998.16,"end":12000.16,"text":"我們現在也要想了解的就是說"},{"start":12000.16,"end":12003.16,"text":"這個如果他短期內沒有辦法履約"},{"start":12003.16,"end":12005.16,"text":"那所以有關的這個退費"},{"start":12005.16,"end":12008.16,"text":"逮捕跟處理期限跟爭議的解決辦法"},{"start":12008.16,"end":12010.16,"text":"這些你們都已經有所掌握嗎"},{"start":12010.16,"end":12012.16,"text":"還是已經有規劃"},{"start":12012.16,"end":12016.16,"text":"我們目前也有在這些相關的思考跟規劃之中"},{"start":12016.16,"end":12017.16,"text":"但就像剛剛跟委員說的"},{"start":12017.16,"end":12019.16,"text":"我們目前在這個階段"},{"start":12019.16,"end":12024.16,"text":"我們跟農業部這邊會一起針對這個海外的"},{"start":12024.5,"end":12027.5,"text":"仲介海外的招募費的透明化"},{"start":12027.5,"end":12030.5,"text":"我們應該要來把它給弄清楚"},{"start":12030.5,"end":12033.5,"text":"那這個部分也是現在正在跟來源國正在確認的事情"},{"start":12033.5,"end":12036.5,"text":"所以您剛剛是講年底之前會完成"},{"start":12036.5,"end":12039.5,"text":"我們希望至少有初步能夠掌握到這些訊息"},{"start":12039.5,"end":12043.5,"text":"那我們會跟農業部一起來協助"},{"start":12043.5,"end":12048.5,"text":"我想會協助這個我們相關的包括外籍的漁工"},{"start":12048.5,"end":12050.5,"text":"其實現在還有一個問題就是說"},{"start":12050.5,"end":12052.5,"text":"他會不會有可能事實上在他來源國"},{"start":12052.5,"end":12054.5,"text":"就已經被收一個仲介費"},{"start":12054.5,"end":12056.5,"text":"那我們要怎麼去掌握這樣的狀況"},{"start":12056.5,"end":12058.5,"text":"否則我們標榜的是零付費"},{"start":12058.5,"end":12060.5,"text":"但是事實上是台灣零付費"},{"start":12060.5,"end":12064.5,"text":"結果他搞不好在來源國就被他的仲介就先收取了"},{"start":12064.5,"end":12065.5,"text":"像這樣的狀況"},{"start":12065.5,"end":12066.5,"text":"我跟委員報告一下就是說"},{"start":12066.5,"end":12071.5,"text":"我們現在跟我們這些外籍遠洋漁船的船東的部分"},{"start":12071.5,"end":12073.5,"text":"也希望他們提供"},{"start":12073.5,"end":12077.5,"text":"因為整個外籍漁工是在國外招募國外聘用"},{"start":12077.5,"end":12079.5,"text":"他們本身船東最清楚"},{"start":12079.5,"end":12083.5,"text":"他們當地的仲介如果有收費是收什麼樣的費用"},{"start":12083.5,"end":12086.5,"text":"那成如剛才洪部長講的不同的國家是不一樣的"},{"start":12086.5,"end":12090.5,"text":"那另一方面我們也直接跟勞動部配合"},{"start":12090.5,"end":12094.5,"text":"當地來源國的這些仲介的一個規費的收法"},{"start":12094.5,"end":12097.5,"text":"那兩邊的資訊要能夠對得起來"},{"start":12097.5,"end":12101.5,"text":"這樣的話我們後續才能夠去看後面怎麼樣的配套去寫"},{"start":12101.5,"end":12106.5,"text":"現在就是有關的我們漁業的雇主"},{"start":12106.5,"end":12107.5,"text":"他們其實擔憂的事情"},{"start":12107.5,"end":12109.5,"text":"我想兩位部長應該都很清楚"},{"start":12109.5,"end":12114.5,"text":"在這邊也希望宇禎這邊也具體的請這個院長"},{"start":12114.5,"end":12119.5,"text":"是不是能夠來這個有在內的五項事項能夠來協助他們"},{"start":12119.5,"end":12124.5,"text":"第一個就是公佈來源國的招募費明細跟合理的金額"},{"start":12124.5,"end":12126.5,"text":"讓他們能夠有所依循"},{"start":12126.5,"end":12130.5,"text":"而且也可以讓他們這個試算一下參考金額"},{"start":12130.5,"end":12134.5,"text":"防止換個名目被重複收費超額收費"},{"start":12135.5,"end":12141.5,"text":"第二項是提出小型的漁船負擔試算跟分級的協助"},{"start":12141.5,"end":12142.5,"text":"為什麼要這樣講呢"},{"start":12142.5,"end":12145.5,"text":"因為事實上我剛剛講的就是我們小型漁船的船主"},{"start":12145.5,"end":12150.5,"text":"他可能就是兩個人三個人要多負擔十幾萬的成本"},{"start":12150.5,"end":12154.5,"text":"對他們來說可能需要研擬一個過渡期間的部分補助"},{"start":12154.5,"end":12157.5,"text":"或其他的減負的措施"},{"start":12157.5,"end":12160.5,"text":"第三項就是希望能夠訂定分期支付"},{"start":12160.5,"end":12163.5,"text":"退費跟地補規範"},{"start":12163.5,"end":12167.5,"text":"就是他能夠依照時據的服務進度來支付"},{"start":12167.5,"end":12172.5,"text":"如果漁工未到短期的失聯或者是離職的話"},{"start":12172.5,"end":12175.5,"text":"也要明定這個仲介的退費地補責任"},{"start":12175.5,"end":12178.5,"text":"跟處理的期限跟爭議的辦法"},{"start":12178.5,"end":12184.5,"text":"第四項是讓執拼跟輔導適用於基層漁船"},{"start":12184.5,"end":12188.5,"text":"政府說已經開放了海洋漁撈業自印尼辦理執拼"},{"start":12188.5,"end":12192.5,"text":"但是事實上對於一般的雇主來說"},{"start":12192.5,"end":12195.5,"text":"他其實也不懂印尼語"},{"start":12195.5,"end":12198.5,"text":"相關的文件需要協助"},{"start":12198.5,"end":12203.5,"text":"可能都需要我們的勞動部這邊來協助他們查核實際的收費"},{"start":12203.5,"end":12208.5,"text":"建立漁工保密的申訴跟不當收費的追討機制"},{"start":12208.5,"end":12211.5,"text":"第五個就是公布推動的時程"},{"start":12211.5,"end":12213.5,"text":"剛剛講三年的時間"},{"start":12213.5,"end":12216.5,"text":"但是漁業界現在都不知道到底推動的時程是什麼"},{"start":12216.5,"end":12221.5,"text":"所以我們也希望可以利用這三年的調試期先行示範"},{"start":12221.5,"end":12224.5,"text":"針對遠洋跟我們近沿海的漁船"},{"start":12224.5,"end":12229.5,"text":"實際示範之後把每個漁工所贓目的成本、贓目的時間"},{"start":12229.5,"end":12232.5,"text":"跟相關的爭議都能夠處理之後"},{"start":12232.5,"end":12236.5,"text":"把這個成效能夠定期的公開"},{"start":12236.5,"end":12240.5,"text":"讓不管是漁民、船主、甚至是漁業界"},{"start":12240.5,"end":12243.5,"text":"都能夠指導大家共同來研討"},{"start":12243.5,"end":12245.5,"text":"作為一個調整制度"},{"start":12245.5,"end":12247.5,"text":"請問一下院長這五項的要求"},{"start":12247.5,"end":12249.5,"text":"請問一下行政院是否可以協助"},{"start":12249.5,"end":12251.5,"text":"是的,跟委員說明"},{"start":12251.5,"end":12253.5,"text":"這個漁工零付費"},{"start":12253.5,"end":12256.5,"text":"這是一個國際的趨勢跟必要的一個面對"},{"start":12256.5,"end":12258.5,"text":"所以我們也要見鬼國際"},{"start":12258.5,"end":12260.5,"text":"這個也是要必須面對的事實"},{"start":12260.5,"end":12262.5,"text":"所以在談判的過程"},{"start":12262.5,"end":12264.5,"text":"努力爭取來三年的時間"},{"start":12264.5,"end":12266.5,"text":"就是要來進行各種的"},{"start":12266.5,"end":12269.5,"text":"包括管理上、法規上、財務上的整個調試"},{"start":12269.5,"end":12271.5,"text":"就爭取這三年"},{"start":12271.5,"end":12273.5,"text":"所以第五點就是根本的問題"},{"start":12273.5,"end":12275.5,"text":"我們會用三年的時間"},{"start":12275.5,"end":12277.5,"text":"前面一二三四在內的"},{"start":12277.5,"end":12281.5,"text":"所有跟漁工相關問題的保障也好"},{"start":12281.5,"end":12283.5,"text":"或者我們管理方式也好"},{"start":12283.5,"end":12285.5,"text":"我們來做全面的規劃"},{"start":12285.5,"end":12287.5,"text":"那什麼時候會開始"},{"start":12287.5,"end":12289.5,"text":"當然要有一個起點"},{"start":12289.5,"end":12291.5,"text":"那像剛剛講的這些的話"},{"start":12291.5,"end":12293.5,"text":"大概什麼時候可以有初步的一個"},{"start":12293.03,"end":12296.03,"text":"委員其實你現在在上面提的這幾點裡面"},{"start":12296.03,"end":12298.03,"text":"其實有蠻多的部分"},{"start":12298.03,"end":12300.03,"text":"也是這段時間我們跟農業部"},{"start":12300.03,"end":12302.03,"text":"其實在思考的方向"},{"start":12302.03,"end":12303.03,"text":"那什麼時候可以提出來"},{"start":12303.03,"end":12305.03,"text":"兩個月還是三個月"},{"start":12305.45,"end":12305.95,"text":"哦"},{"start":12306.7,"end":12307.7,"text":"我跟委員報告"},{"start":12307.7,"end":12309.7,"text":"像第一點的部分我剛才就說了"},{"star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我們的政策規劃出來"},{"start":12431.23,"end":12433.23,"text":"一定會跟相關的利害關係的人去溝通"},{"start":12433.23,"end":12435.23,"text":"我們請相關部會把這些問題"},{"start":12435.23,"end":12437.23,"text":"都列出來"},{"start":12437.23,"end":12439.23,"text":"那麼在年底之前把問題都整合好"},{"start":12439.23,"end":12441.23,"text":"那麼就開始跟業界"},{"start":12441.23,"end":12443.23,"text":"跟漁工跟漁民大家來討論"},{"start":12443.23,"end":12445.23,"text":"那未來三年當中"},{"start":12445.23,"end":12447.23,"text":"我們要一定是在"},{"start":12447.23,"end":12449.23,"text":"要開始時間到了之前"},{"start":12449.23,"end":12451.23,"text":"會把這個完全"},{"start":12450.69,"end":12452.69,"text":"完美的法式把它完成起來"},{"start":12452.69,"end":12454.69,"text":"我想院長接軌國際是好事"},{"start":12454.69,"end":12456.69,"text":"我們支持 但是不能"},{"start":12456.69,"end":12458.69,"text":"建立在犧牲我們漁民的權益上面"},{"start":12458.69,"end":12460.69,"text":"所以還是希望"},{"start":12460.69,"end":12462.69,"text":"行政院就是拿出誠意"},{"start":12462.69,"end":12464.69,"text":"把制度講清楚"},{"start":12464.69,"end":12466.69,"text":"把我們的這個配套做完整"},{"start":12466.69,"end":12468.69,"text":"把負擔影響降到最低"},{"start":12468.69,"end":12470.69,"text":"讓漁民能夠安心的出海"},{"start":12470.69,"end":12472.69,"text":"這才是負責任的政府"},{"start":12472.69,"end":12474.69,"text":"謝謝院長"},{"start":12474.69,"end":12476.69,"text":"最後這邊要請教院長就是有關"},{"start":12478.5,"end":12480.5,"text":"兩位部長可以請回"},{"start":12480.5,"end":12482.5,"text":"就是川習二會之後"},{"start":12482.5,"end":12484.5,"text":"就是我們可以看到"},{"start":12484.5,"end":12486.5,"text":"就是針對美方的一些訊息"},{"start":12486.5,"end":12488.5,"text":"包括就是針對說"},{"start":12488.5,"end":12490.5,"text":"台灣政治人物不應該平凡的赴美"},{"start":12490.5,"end":12492.5,"text":"拜會智庫等華府的活動"},{"start":12492.5,"end":12494.5,"text":"那美國的國務卿盧比歐也談到"},{"start":12494.5,"end":12496.5,"text":"對外軍售的時候"},{"start":12496.5,"end":12498.5,"text":"他必須考量到美軍自身的需求"},{"start":12498.5,"end":12500.5,"text":"武器的庫存"},{"start":12500.5,"end":12502.5,"text":"跟軍工的產能"},{"start":12502.5,"end":12504.5,"text":"跟全球的戰略"},{"start":12504.5,"end":12506.5,"text":"那這些釋放的訊息都讓我們"},{"start":12506.5,"end":12508.5,"text":"覺得對於我們"},{"start":12508.5,"end":12510.5,"text":"現在的這個第二筆的這個"},{"start":12510.5,"end":12512.5,"text":"我們的發價"},{"start":12512.5,"end":12514.5,"text":"發價書就是有關"},{"start":12514.5,"end":12516.5,"text":"140億美元的軍購"},{"start":12516.5,"end":12518.5,"text":"這個部分我想知道"},{"start":12518.5,"end":12520.5,"text":"現在川習會之後呢"},{"start":12520.5,"end":12522.5,"text":"那我們其實當時在做"},{"start":12522.5,"end":12524.5,"text":"這樣子的一個"},{"start":12524.5,"end":12526.5,"text":"有關我們7800億的"},{"start":12526.5,"end":12528.5,"text":"一個軍購的特別條例的時候"},{"start":12528.5,"end":12530.5,"text":"當時所提到的就是"},{"start":12530.5,"end":12532.5,"text":"希望我們能夠儘速的通過"},{"start":12532.5,"end":12534.5,"text":"那免得這個我們的訂單"},{"start":12534.5,"end":12536.5,"text":"我們的訂單被取消"},{"start":12536.5,"end":12538.5,"text":"但是我們從5月8號通過之後"},{"start":12538.5,"end":12540.5,"text":"到現在將近五個月了"},{"start":12540.5,"end":12542.5,"text":"可是第二筆的這個發價書"},{"start":12542.5,"end":12544.5,"text":"我們到現在也沒看到"},{"start":12544.5,"end":12546.5,"text":"請問一下目前的進度"},{"start":12546.19,"end":12548.19,"text":"我想跟委員報告"},{"start":12548.19,"end":12550.19,"text":"我想我們現在各項的軍購案"},{"start":12550.19,"end":12552.19,"text":"我們已經有成立一個專案的團隊了"},{"start":12552.19,"end":12554.19,"text":"那現在我們跟"},{"start":12554.19,"end":12556.19,"text":"這個"},{"start":12556.85,"end":12558.85,"text":"雙方還是在一個明明的協調"},{"start":12558.85,"end":12560.85,"text":"跟定期的會議等等"},{"start":12560.85,"end":12562.85,"text":"那我們會"},{"start":12562.85,"end":12564.85,"text":"來"},{"start":12564.33,"end":12566.33,"text":"就這個第二筆的這個"},{"start":12566.33,"end":12568.33,"text":"140億美元的"},{"start":12568.33,"end":12570.33,"text":"這個部分"},{"start":12570.33,"end":12572.33,"text":"那我們會"},{"start":12572.33,"end":12574.33,"text":"7金為止"},{"start":12574.33,"end":12576.33,"text":"7金為止美方並沒有通知我們"},{"start":12576.33,"end":12578.33,"text":"有過"},{"start":12578.33,"end":12580.33,"text":"有關任何的改變"},{"start":12580.33,"end":12582.33,"text":"畢竟這是我們經過長期的討論"},{"start":12582.33,"end":12584.33,"text":"當時我們通過這樣的預算的時候"},{"start":12584.33,"end":12586.33,"text":"可能很快就會有"},{"start":12586.33,"end":12588.33,"text":"第二筆發價書來"},{"start":12588.33,"end":12590.33,"text":"但是到現在已經五個月過去了"},{"start":12590.33,"end":12592.33,"text":"還是沒有"},{"start":12596.27,"end":12598.27,"text":"好謝謝徐一貞委員的資訊"},{"start":12598.27,"end":12600.27,"text":"謝謝主任院長相關部會所長的備詢"},{"start":12600.27,"end":12602.27,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":12608.83,"end":12610.83,"text":"好報告議會我們本日排定的資訊委員"},{"start":12610.83,"end":12612.83,"text":"已經質詢完畢"},{"start":12613.59,"end":12615.59,"text":"謝謝主任院長正副院長以及各位"},{"start":12615.59,"end":12617.59,"text":"部會所長的練習"},{"start":12617.59,"end":12619.59,"text":"打詢 10月6號"},{"start":12619.59,"end":12621.59,"text":"星期二上午9點繼續進行"},{"start":12621.59,"end":12623.59,"text":"施政報告諮詢"},{"start":12623.59,"end":12625.59,"text":"我們繼續處理朝野黨團協商結論"},{"start":12625.59,"end":12627.59,"text":"請議事人宣讀"},{"start":12628.1,"end":12630.1,"text":"立法院黨團協商結論"},{"start":12630.1,"end":12632.1,"text":"時間115年10月20日星期五上午95分"},{"start":12632.1,"end":12634.1,"text":"第一點一廠主席辦公室決定事項"},{"start":12634.1,"end":12636.1,"text":"一請各黨團於10月19日星期一"},{"start":12636.1,"end":12638.1,"text":"下午50前將115年度"},{"start":12638.1,"end":12640.1,"text":"增長政府總預算和附屬大陸預算"},{"start":12640.1,"end":12642.1,"text":"營業及非營業部分之提案"},{"start":12642.1,"end":12644.1,"text":"順治財政委員會會審"},{"start":12644.1,"end":12646.1,"text":"預時不再收案"},{"start":12646.1,"end":12648.1,"text":"二財政委員會收案後叫各該委員會整理"},{"start":12648.1,"end":12650.1,"text":"復印相關提案後"},{"start":12650.1,"end":12652.1,"text":"於10月23日星期五中午12時前"},{"start":12652.1,"end":12654.1,"text":"提供各黨團及相關行政部門參考"},{"start":12654.1,"end":12656.1,"text":"請行政部門先行向提案委員及"},{"start":12656.1,"end":12658.1,"text":"黨團進行雙向說明落實溝通"},{"start":12658.1,"end":12660.1,"text":"以利或序進行密集協商"},{"start":12660.1,"end":12662.1,"text":"主事人韓國瑜協商代表傅坤啟"},{"start":12662.1,"end":12664.1,"text":"徐宇貞洪文凱蔡啟昌"},{"start":12664.1,"end":12666.1,"text":"莊若雄范雲陳青龍陳朝之"},{"start":12666.1,"end":12668.1,"text":"洪玉祥宣讀完畢"},{"start":12669.44,"end":12671.44,"text":"請問院會對以上朝野黨團協商結論"},{"start":12671.44,"end":12673.44,"text":"有無意義?沒有意義"},{"start":12673.44,"end":12674.44,"text":"我們就通過"},{"start":12674.44,"end":12676.44,"text":"115年10月2日"},{"start":12676.44,"end":12678.44,"text":"朝野黨團協商結論"},{"start":12678.44,"end":12680.44,"text":"經決定如下"},{"start":12680.44,"end":12682.44,"text":"1.請各黨團10月19日星期下午5點前"},{"start":12682.44,"end":12684.44,"text":"將115年度"},{"start":12684.44,"end":12686.44,"text":"中央政府總預算案"},{"start":12686.44,"end":12688.44,"text":"附屬單位預算"},{"start":12688.44,"end":12690.44,"text":"營業及非營業部分之提案"},{"start":12690.44,"end":12692.44,"text":"送至財政委員會會審"},{"start":12692.44,"end":12694.44,"text":"預時"},{"start":12694.06,"end":12696.06,"text":"2.財政委員會會審議後"},{"start":12696.06,"end":12698.06,"text":"交各委員會整理"},{"start":12698.06,"end":12700.06,"text":"復印相關提案後"},{"start":12700.06,"end":12702.06,"text":"於10月23日星期五中午12點前"},{"start":12703.9,"end":12705.9,"text":"提供各黨團及相關行政部門參考"},{"start":12705.9,"end":12707.9,"text":"請行政部門"},{"start":12707.9,"end":12709.9,"text":"先行向"},{"start":12709.9,"end":12711.9,"text":"提案委員及黨團進行"},{"start":12711.9,"end":12713.9,"text":"雙向說明"},{"start":12713.9,"end":12715.9,"text":"落實溝通以立"},{"start":12715.9,"end":12717.9,"text":"後續進行密集協商"},{"start":12717.9,"end":12719.9,"text":"報告院會我們本日會議進行到此為止"},{"start":12719.9,"end":12721.9,"text":"再次謝謝我們陳俊宇委員陳冠廷委員"},{"start":12721.9,"end":12723.9,"text":"莊若雄委員陳永康委員陳金威委員"},{"start":12723.9,"end":12725.9,"text":"林茜琪委員許宇峻委員"},{"start":12725.9,"end":12727.9,"text":"共同陪同我們參與"},{"start":12727.9,"end":12729.9,"text":"今天的總諮詢"},{"start":12729.9,"end":12731.9,"text":"今天會議進行到此為止現在休息"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}