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長石崇良"},{"start":2045.76,"end":2047.52,"text":"及各相關部會主管"},{"start":2047.52,"end":2050.16,"text":"10月14日衛生福利部政務次長呂建德"},{"start":2050.16,"end":2053,"text":"及各相關部會主管主席陳昭及委員金輝"},{"start":2053.68,"end":2055.04,"text":"10月12日報告事項"},{"start":2055.04,"end":2057.7599999999998,"text":"宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定"},{"start":2057.7599999999998,"end":2060.52,"text":"邀請衛生福利部部長法務部法務部調查局"},{"start":2060.52,"end":2063.7599999999998,"text":"交易部財政部海洋委員會海洋委員會海巡署"},{"start":2063.7599999999998,"end":2066.04,"text":"內政部警政署就減害計畫執行"},{"start":2066.04,"end":2070.2799999999997,"text":"成效及毒癮治療量能與毒品邊境校園及相關防治"},{"start":2070.2799999999997,"end":2071.7999999999997,"text":"精進作為執行"},{"start":2071.7999999999997,"end":2074.08,"text":"進行專題報告並被質詢"},{"start":2074.08,"end":2076.52,"text":"本日會議由衛生福利部部長石崇良報告後"},{"start":2076.52,"end":2078.96,"text":"委員林月琴等15人提出質詢"},{"start":2078.96,"end":2081,"text":"軍軍衛生福利部部長石崇良"},{"start":2081,"end":2083.52,"text":"及各相關主管等集體答復"},{"start":2083.56,"end":2084.96,"text":"委員楊耀等4人"},{"start":2084.96,"end":2087.48,"text":"所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":2087.48,"end":2089.36,"text":"決定報告及詢答完畢"},{"start":2089.36,"end":2091.8,"text":"文質詢未及答復或請補充資料"},{"start":2091.8,"end":2094.44,"text":"則請相關機關於2週內與書面答復"},{"start":2094.44,"end":2097.88,"text":"文令要求期限則從期鎖定10月14日"},{"start":2097.88,"end":2101.36,"text":"討論事項繼續審查及審查國民年金法部分條文"},{"start":2101.36,"end":2103.36,"text":"修正草案等74案"},{"start":2107.27,"end":2111.43,"text":"決議行政院含情審議國民年金法部分條文修正草案等74案"},{"start":2111.43,"end":2113.71,"text":"審查玩具內容如審查結果"},{"start":2113.71,"end":2116.15,"text":"變案理據審查報告提報院會討論"},{"start":2116.15,"end":2118.95,"text":"院會討論時由陳昭及委員金慧補充說明"},{"start":2118.95,"end":2120.83,"text":"須加黨團協商"},{"start":2120.83,"end":2124.03,"text":"本法案條次條文中援引條次及法制用語"},{"start":2124.03,"end":2126.67,"text":"調整授權議事人員整理相關立法說明"},{"start":2126.67,"end":2128.75,"text":"授權行政單位提供"},{"start":2128.75,"end":2130.59,"text":"審查結果依照行政院提案"},{"start":2130.59,"end":2133.07,"text":"通過第59條條文二保留"},{"start":2133.64,"end":2137.4,"text":"行政院提案第54條之一及對應提案條文二"},{"start":2137.4,"end":2139,"text":"委員陳金輝等19人"},{"start":2139,"end":2141.44,"text":"國民黨黨團及委員廖偉祥等21人"},{"start":2141.44,"end":2144.7999999999997,"text":"提案增訂第39條之一第40條條文"},{"start":2144.7999999999997,"end":2147.24,"text":"3民進黨黨團委員吳思耀等18人"},{"start":2147.24,"end":2148.92,"text":"及委員鍾嘉斌等19人"},{"start":2148.92,"end":2150.92,"text":"提案第42條條文"},{"start":2150.92,"end":2153.36,"text":"4民進黨黨團及委員吳思耀等18人"},{"start":2153.36,"end":2155.3199999999997,"text":"提案第4、7條條文"},{"start":2155.3199999999997,"end":2157.04,"text":"5委員鍾嘉斌等19人"},{"start":2157.04,"end":2158.44,"text":"委員盧憲一等17人"},{"start":2158.44,"end":2160.36,"text":"及委員高金素梅等18人"},{"start":2160.36,"end":2162.52,"text":"提案第53條條文"},{"start":2162.52,"end":2165,"text":"保留之修正動議請委員自行參閱"},{"start":2167.39,"end":2169.35,"text":"通過附帶決議三項"},{"start":2169.35,"end":2170.0299999999997,"text":"宣讀完畢"},{"start":2171.46,"end":2172.38,"text":"請問委員會"},{"start":2172.38,"end":2174.86,"text":"上次的意識度有無錯誤或遺漏之處"},{"start":2177.69,"end":2179.69,"text":"沒有錯誤或遺漏之處"},{"start":2179.69,"end":2180.85,"text":"意識度確定"},{"start":2181.44,"end":2185.36,"text":"本日會議議程為繼續審查及審查"},{"start":2187.07,"end":2189.03,"text":"食品安全衛生管理法"},{"start":2189.03,"end":2191.9100000000003,"text":"部分條文修正查案等60案"},{"start":2191.9100000000003,"end":2193.27,"text":"介紹在場委員"},{"start":2193.81,"end":2194.81,"text":"請委員"},{"start":2197.02,"end":2199.7,"text":"前召委林月群委員"},{"start":2203.11,"end":2204.3100000000004,"text":"廖委翔委員"},{"start":2205.11,"end":2206.11,"text":"也是陳召委"},{"start":2207.71,"end":2211.35,"text":"介紹列席官員衛生福利部林靜儀"},{"start":2211.35,"end":2212.51,"text":"政府次長"},{"start":2214.49,"end":2216.45,"text":"衛福部食藥署"},{"start":2216.45,"end":2217.41,"text":"江志剛署長"},{"start":2219.64,"end":2220.44,"text":"法規會"},{"start":2220.44,"end":2221.56,"text":"陳姓陳參事"},{"start":2223.87,"end":2226.67,"text":"農業部農糧署黃昭興副署長"},{"start":2228.65,"end":2229.4500000000003,"text":"李瓊尼"},{"start":2229.4500000000003,"end":2230.25,"text":"檢認記證"},{"start":2232.04,"end":2233.08,"text":"陳俊宏科長"},{"start":2235.18,"end":2238.2999999999997,"text":"農業部動植物防疫檢疫署"},{"start":2238.2999999999997,"end":2240.22,"text":"陳勝宜副組長"},{"start":2242.16,"end":2243.64,"text":"洪玉堂檢認記證"},{"start":2248.1,"end":2249.5,"text":"趙索陽檢認記證"},{"start":2252.12,"end":2253.7999999999997,"text":"畜牧師吳捷記證"},{"start":2255.94,"end":2257.9,"text":"經濟部產業發展署"},{"start":2257.9,"end":2259.38,"text":"周宇欣副署長"},{"start":2262.75,"end":2264.67,"text":"經濟部國營事業管理師"},{"start":2264.67,"end":2265.71,"text":"谷美良科長"},{"start":2267.87,"end":2269.0299999999997,"text":"商業發展署"},{"start":2269.0299999999997,"end":2271.23,"text":"簡俊良副組長"},{"start":2273.6,"end":2277.12,"text":"法務部方南鈞參事"},{"start":2279.54,"end":2281.82,"text":"教育部國民級學前交易署"},{"start":2281.82,"end":2283.18,"text":"薛承佑副組長"},{"start":2285.01,"end":2287.4500000000003,"text":"綜合規劃師羅秀惠科長"},{"start":2289.42,"end":2291.34,"text":"財政部財政資訊中心"},{"start":2291.34,"end":2292.5,"text":"謝明峰副主任"},{"start":2294.12,"end":2296.88,"text":"財政部附稅署聯保權專門委員"},{"start":2298.11,"end":2298.9900000000002,"text":"關稅署"},{"start":2298.9900000000002,"end":2300.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詢答完畢"},{"start":2337.9,"end":2339.38,"text":"115年8月5日"},{"start":2339.38,"end":2341.42,"text":"就新增資行政院提案"},{"start":2341.42,"end":2343.6600000000003,"text":"委員劉建國等19人提案"},{"start":2343.6600000000003,"end":2344.7000000000003,"text":"等20案"},{"start":2344.7000000000003,"end":2345.62,"text":"與上述提案"},{"start":2345.62,"end":2347.86,"text":"一並進行逐條審查"},{"start":2347.9,"end":2349.46,"text":"115年8月19日"},{"start":2349.46,"end":2353.02,"text":"再加入委員王鴻威等19人擬具"},{"start":2353.02,"end":2355.5,"text":"食品安全衛生管理法"},{"start":2355.5,"end":2357.86,"text":"部分條文修正查案"},{"start":2357.86,"end":2359.86,"text":"等21個提案"},{"start":2359.86,"end":2361.1,"text":"與上述37案"},{"start":2361.1,"end":2362.46,"text":"並按審查"},{"start":2362.46,"end":2366.1,"text":"本次新增委員陳敬威等17人擬具"},{"start":2366.1,"end":2368.1800000000003,"text":"食品安全衛生管理法"},{"start":2369.05,"end":2371.3700000000003,"text":"部分條文修正查案等2案"},{"start":2371.3700000000003,"end":2372.9300000000003,"text":"本次會議不再詢答"},{"start":2372.9300000000003,"end":2375.17,"text":"及進行逐條討論"},{"start":2375.17,"end":2377.69,"text":"有關本次會議各項書面資料"},{"start":2377.69,"end":2379.8900000000003,"text":"均列入記錄刊登公報"},{"start":2379.8900000000003,"end":2380.9300000000003,"text":"循例本日"},{"start":2380.9300000000003,"end":2382.73,"text":"能日不處理臨時提案"},{"start":2384.75,"end":2385.75,"text":"現在進行"},{"start":2386.42,"end":2387.62,"text":"討論事項"},{"start":2395.37,"end":2396.17,"text":"行政院"},{"start":2396.17,"end":2397.37,"text":"含請審議"},{"start":2397.37,"end":2399.5699999999997,"text":"食品安全衛生管理法"},{"start":2399.5699999999997,"end":2401.13,"text":"部分條文修正查案"},{"start":2401.13,"end":2402.37,"text":"案等60案"},{"start":2402.37,"end":2403.85,"text":"是逐條審查"},{"start":2403.85,"end":2406.6099999999997,"text":"每條條文先請行政單位說明"},{"start":2408.26,"end":2409.3,"text":"現在"},{"start":2409.73,"end":2410.77,"text":"繼續"},{"start":2411.39,"end":2412.43,"text":"進行本案"},{"start":2412.43,"end":2413.43,"text":"主案討論"},{"start":2414.22,"end":2416.5,"text":"現在討論第24條條文"},{"start":2418.94,"end":2421.38,"text":"有料想提案"},{"start":2421.38,"end":2422.58,"text":"先請衛福部說明"},{"start":2427.08,"end":2430.52,"text":"針對料人等5項提案"},{"start":2430.52,"end":2435.88,"text":"行政局官建議能夠維持先行條文"},{"start":2435.88,"end":2437.7999999999997,"text":"理由簡單說明如下"},{"start":2437.7999999999997,"end":2442.36,"text":"委員提案明定"},{"start":2442.36,"end":2446.68,"text":"若含乙型受體素因強制標示之"},{"start":2446.68,"end":2450.16,"text":"建議食品標示一體適用國產"},{"start":2450.16,"end":2451.36,"text":"進口產品"},{"start":2451.36,"end":2453.4,"text":"然動物用藥眾多"},{"start":2454.7599999999998,"end":2457.16,"text":"不能緊就單一的動物用藥標示"},{"start":2457.16,"end":2459.9599999999996,"text":"否則違反提供不正確的資訊"},{"start":2459.9599999999996,"end":2461.9599999999996,"text":"國際上並未針對"},{"start":2461.9599999999996,"end":2464.24,"text":"某一動物用藥"},{"start":2464.24,"end":2465.4399999999996,"text":"要求標示"},{"start":2466.18,"end":2467.8999999999996,"text":"吳國偉WHO會員"},{"start":2468.42,"end":2470.3,"text":"對標示規範"},{"start":2470.3,"end":2472.7000000000003,"text":"應遵循不歧視原則"},{"start":2472.7000000000003,"end":2474.86,"text":"強制要求產品"},{"start":2474.86,"end":2476.82,"text":"僅標示含乙型受體素"},{"start":2476.82,"end":2479.38,"text":"並不符合國際規範"},{"start":2480.22,"end":2483.94,"text":"另縣議委員等食肉人提案"},{"start":2483.94,"end":2487.2999999999997,"text":"加工或混配食品添加物"},{"start":2487.2999999999997,"end":2488.7,"text":"應一併標示"},{"start":2488.7,"end":2491.54,"text":"其具有功能性之主要成分"},{"start":2491.54,"end":2495.94,"text":"現行法第24條的第一項"},{"start":2495.94,"end":2496.94,"text":"第10款"},{"start":2496.94,"end":2500.18,"text":"其他經中央主管機關公告之事項"},{"start":2500.18,"end":2502.62,"text":"以授權中央主管機關"},{"start":2502.62,"end":2504.46,"text":"就特定事項"},{"start":2504.46,"end":2506.4199999999996,"text":"以公告方式處理"},{"start":2506.4199999999996,"end":2507.8199999999997,"text":"食安法立法的目的"},{"start":2507.86,"end":2510.98,"text":"為管理食品衛生安全及品質"},{"start":2510.98,"end":2513.02,"text":"維護國民健康"},{"start":2513.02,"end":2515.34,"text":"並確保消費者權益"},{"start":2515.34,"end":2518.02,"text":"目前我國之標示規定"},{"start":2518.02,"end":2520.46,"text":"與國際規範大致相符"},{"start":2520.46,"end":2522.26,"text":"食品與食品添加物"},{"start":2522.26,"end":2523.3,"text":"標示的規定"},{"start":2523.3,"end":2527.42,"text":"需一體適用於國產及輸入產品"},{"start":2527.42,"end":2530.7400000000002,"text":"原料糖符合衛生安全一致標準"},{"start":2530.7400000000002,"end":2532.6200000000003,"text":"強制標示原產地"},{"start":2533.16,"end":2534.2799999999997,"text":"原料原產地"},{"start":2534.2799999999997,"end":2536.72,"text":"同與食安法立法的目的"},{"start":2536.72,"end":2538.2799999999997,"text":"與宗旨不符合"},{"start":2538.2799999999997,"end":2540.68,"text":"亦無法符合不歧視"},{"start":2540.68,"end":2542.88,"text":"避免不必要的貿易障礙等"},{"start":2542.88,"end":2545.3599999999997,"text":"WHO國際規範"},{"start":2545.3599999999997,"end":2546,"text":"以上說明"},{"start":2548.69,"end":2549.9700000000003,"text":"WTO國際規範"},{"start":2552,"end":2554.04,"text":"謝謝署長的說明"},{"start":2554.04,"end":2556.4399999999996,"text":"請在場委員再"},{"start":2557.2599999999998,"end":2559.3399999999997,"text":"討論之前我們再補充介紹"},{"start":2559.3399999999997,"end":2561.1,"text":"前召委 抒情前委員"},{"start":2562.5,"end":2563.7000000000003,"text":"WTO國際規範"},{"start":2563.7000000000003,"end":2565.62,"text":"請在場委員再補充介紹"},{"start":2565.62,"end":2568.1,"text":"前召委 抒情前委員再補充介紹"},{"start":2568.1,"end":2570.5,"text":"前召委 抒情前委員再補充介紹"},{"start":2570.5,"end":2573.3,"text":"前召委 抒情前委員再補充介紹"},{"start":2573.3,"end":2575.9,"text":"前召委 抒情前委員再補充介紹"},{"start":2575.9,"end":2578.46,"text":"前召委 抒情前委員再補充介紹"},{"start":2578.46,"end":2581.06,"text":"前召委 抒情前委員再補充介紹"},{"start":2581.06,"end":2583.46,"text":"前召委 抒情前委員再補充介紹"},{"start":2583.46,"end":2585.86,"text":"前召委 抒情前委員再補充介紹"},{"start":2585.86,"end":2588.46,"text":"前召委 抒情前委員再補充介紹"},{"start":2565.99,"end":2569.7099999999996,"text":"請問各位委員對這條有意見"},{"start":2574.18,"end":2575.2599999999998,"text":"委員請"},{"start":2577.08,"end":2579.08,"text":"我想這裡就是"},{"start":2579.08,"end":2582.08,"text":"民眾大家都很關心很擔心的嘛"},{"start":2582.08,"end":2583.08,"text":"那"},{"start":2583.69,"end":2584.69,"text":"我覺得"},{"start":2585.06,"end":2586.06,"text":"我覺得如果有"},{"start":2586.06,"end":2588.06,"text":"我覺得也應該要讓民眾有知情權"},{"start":2588.06,"end":2589.06,"text":"究竟有沒有"},{"start":2589.06,"end":2591.06,"text":"會不會有這種相關的疑義"},{"start":2591.06,"end":2592.06,"text":"而且換言之"},{"start":2592.06,"end":2594.06,"text":"如果真的沒有的話"},{"start":2594.06,"end":2596.06,"text":"這樣是不是反而讓民眾更加的安心"},{"start":2596.06,"end":2598.06,"text":"不會去"},{"start":2598.06,"end":2599.06,"text":"採購起來"},{"start":2599.06,"end":2601.06,"text":"或者是吃起來更安心"},{"start":2601.06,"end":2603.06,"text":"所以我覺得這個東西是不是應該要再討論"},{"start":2608.53,"end":2609.53,"text":"是"},{"start":2609.53,"end":2610.53,"text":"呃"},{"start":2610.53,"end":2611.53,"text":"那是"},{"start":2611.53,"end":2613.53,"text":"次長要先說明"},{"start":2613.53,"end":2616.53,"text":"還是還有其他委員"},{"start":2616.53,"end":2618.53,"text":"那邊其他委員有意見"},{"start":2618.53,"end":2620.53,"text":"就是針對這個"},{"start":2621.75,"end":2623.75,"text":"國人比較擔心的一些內容"},{"start":2626.42,"end":2628.42,"text":"能夠充分的溝通"},{"start":2628.42,"end":2630.42,"text":"那再補充介紹"},{"start":2630.42,"end":2632.42,"text":"出席陳建衛委員"},{"start":2633.24,"end":2634.24,"text":"本次招惟"},{"start":2650.03,"end":2652.03,"text":"那我還繼續需要發言嗎"},{"start":2652.03,"end":2654.03,"text":"所以是保留嗎"},{"start":2654.03,"end":2656.03,"text":"還沒我們現在就是"},{"start":2656.03,"end":2657.03,"text":"看"},{"start":2657.03,"end":2659.03,"text":"好我再補充一下好了"},{"start":2659.03,"end":2660.03,"text":"新增第十款"},{"start":2660.03,"end":2661.03,"text":"簡單講我們就是說"},{"start":2661.03,"end":2665.03,"text":"具有以行受體素食品添加物質原料"},{"start":2665.03,"end":2667.03,"text":"為應標式事項"},{"start":2667.03,"end":2671.03,"text":"並在第二項授權中央主管機關公告第十款的"},{"start":2671.03,"end":2672.03,"text":"應遵行事項"},{"start":2672.03,"end":2674.03,"text":"我想這個查了一下"},{"start":2674.03,"end":2677.03,"text":"這與11年的憲判自第六號所示"},{"start":2677.03,"end":2680.03,"text":"以行受體素殘留安全容許量"},{"start":2680.03,"end":2683.03,"text":"屬於中央立法事項的方向一致"},{"start":2683.03,"end":2688.03,"text":"好那由中央以法律及授權公告統一規範"},{"start":2688.03,"end":2690.03,"text":"避免各地標準不一"},{"start":2690.03,"end":2692.03,"text":"所以我這邊會這樣子提"},{"start":2692.03,"end":2695.03,"text":"好那再來就是這個體系一致性"},{"start":2695.03,"end":2703.03,"text":"第二項把這個第十款跟第九款含基因改造食品添加物質原料並列"},{"start":2703.03,"end":2706.03,"text":"都由主管機關公告應遵行事項"},{"start":2706.03,"end":2709.03,"text":"才具有的標示授權體力"},{"start":2709.03,"end":2712.03,"text":"所以我們希望說這個部分是不是可以"},{"start":2713.33,"end":2715.33,"text":"可以為我們人民的食安把關"},{"start":2715.33,"end":2721.33,"text":"而且其實過去多次在食安的質詢都跟這個議題有關"},{"start":2721.33,"end":2726.33,"text":"當初過去幾個部長也都說不會犧牲人民的食安"},{"start":2726.33,"end":2731.33,"text":"所以我在想這部分是不是應該要再繼續考慮本席的意見"},{"start":2733.17,"end":2735.17,"text":"好"},{"start":2734.51,"end":2736.51,"text":"那請那個"},{"start":2736.51,"end":2738.51,"text":"對不起我們看什麼"},{"start":2738.51,"end":2742.51,"text":"好那個請召委發表一下"},{"start":2742.51,"end":2747.51,"text":"那我們一定要支持我們的保障消費者的知情權"},{"start":2747.51,"end":2750.51,"text":"那大家這條主要當然已經捨到一些"},{"start":2750.51,"end":2755.51,"text":"像產品的製造地跟主要原料的原產地"},{"start":2756.72,"end":2758.72,"text":"我們看看國外的案例"},{"start":2758.72,"end":2762.72,"text":"包括澳洲加拿大日本韓國其實都有不同的方式來去做標示"},{"start":2762.72,"end":2766.72,"text":"可是標示的制度必須要精準可知性"},{"start":2766.72,"end":2769.72,"text":"而且國內外產品應採取一致的標準"},{"start":2769.72,"end":2774.72,"text":"最後也必須考量到台灣所面臨到的貿易障礙"},{"start":2775.43,"end":2780.43,"text":"而且可是很重要的是要兼顧民眾知情權跟貿易的公平性"},{"start":2780.43,"end":2781.43,"text":"以上"},{"start":2782.96,"end":2784.96,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":2784.96,"end":2786.96,"text":"那他們委員有要提出來討論"},{"start":2789.2,"end":2791.2,"text":"那請衛福部先回應"},{"start":2791.2,"end":2793.2,"text":"好謝謝委員關切"},{"start":2793.2,"end":2798.2,"text":"那當然我們也認同說我們其實要一致的來保障民眾的食品安全"},{"start":2798.2,"end":2800.2,"text":"不過因為在乙型受體素的這個部分"},{"start":2800.2,"end":2805.2,"text":"在衛福部這邊我們從相關的開放進口"},{"start":2805.2,"end":2808.2,"text":"開放就是說開放這個用乙型受體素的飼養"},{"start":2808.2,"end":2814.2,"text":"曾經使用乙型受體素他飼養之後的這樣子的熱品等等的這個部分"},{"start":2814.2,"end":2817.2,"text":"我們在我們的儀表板一直都有相關的揭露"},{"start":2817.2,"end":2819.2,"text":"那像在更早之前"},{"start":2819.2,"end":2822.2,"text":"因為之前是前一段時間之前是大家關注的原因關注的是豬肉"},{"start":2822.2,"end":2825.2,"text":"不過更早之前在牛肉的部分就已經開放了"},{"start":2825.2,"end":2830.2,"text":"所以這個是已經在台灣已經是非常多年以來的一個執行"},{"start":2830.2,"end":2832.2,"text":"那我們在儀表板上的揭露也都很明確的揭露"},{"start":2832.2,"end":2836.2,"text":"在豬肉這邊都有揭露就是說都是能夠進到台灣"},{"start":2836.2,"end":2839.2,"text":"能夠來給民眾使用都是符合我們的標準"},{"start":2839.2,"end":2843.2,"text":"那主要是擔心是說針對單一這邊來標示的時候"},{"start":2843.2,"end":2845.2,"text":"就像剛剛署長這邊說明的"},{"start":2845.2,"end":2848.2,"text":"因為各種動物用藥的種類很多"},{"start":2848.2,"end":2850.2,"text":"那當然我們的把關是把關在"},{"start":2850.2,"end":2852.2,"text":"不論它是這些都是合法動物用藥"},{"start":2852.2,"end":2855.2,"text":"而進到台灣的時候都必須符合我們的標準"},{"start":2855.2,"end":2858.2,"text":"那如果僅就單一的這個用藥來標示的話"},{"start":2858.2,"end":2860.2,"text":"擔心民眾會以為只有一種"},{"start":2860.2,"end":2863.2,"text":"這樣其實對於民眾來說不是一個好的資訊的揭露"},{"start":2863.2,"end":2865.2,"text":"那另外擔心也是WTO的這個問題"},{"start":2865.2,"end":2869.2,"text":"因為在WTO裡面的標示規範要遵循不歧視原則"},{"start":2869.2,"end":2871.2,"text":"那如果這樣子擔心"},{"start":2871.2,"end":2873.2,"text":"一旦還有一個事情就是說"},{"start":2873.2,"end":2876.2,"text":"因為我們現在也是希望這個食安法能夠趕快來修訂"},{"start":2876.2,"end":2879.2,"text":"如果修完的這個文字之後"},{"start":2879.2,"end":2881.2,"text":"會引起WTO對我們提出的一些意見的話"},{"start":2881.2,"end":2883.2,"text":"擔心反而因為這個原因"},{"start":2883.2,"end":2885.2,"text":"我們這個法會沒有辦法執行"},{"start":2885.2,"end":2886.2,"text":"以上先補充一下,謝謝"},{"start":2889.84,"end":2891.84,"text":"所以,廖元,請問"},{"start":2891.84,"end":2893.84,"text":"問戶這樣說明"},{"start":2893.84,"end":2895.84,"text":"您可以接受還是說"},{"start":2895.84,"end":2897.84,"text":"還有不同的想法"},{"start":2897.84,"end":2899.84,"text":"還是堅持您的想法"},{"start":2899.84,"end":2901.84,"text":"我是覺得是不是"},{"start":2901.84,"end":2903.84,"text":"再保留讓他們再回去討論"},{"start":2903.84,"end":2905.84,"text":"到時候再回來的時候"},{"start":2905.84,"end":2907.84,"text":"把這件事情再理清楚好不好"},{"start":2907.84,"end":2909.84,"text":"因為我是認為"},{"start":2909.84,"end":2911.84,"text":"這個所謂的儀表板應該還是不足以讓人民安心"},{"start":2911.84,"end":2913.84,"text":"做了很多的儀表板"},{"start":2913.84,"end":2915.84,"text":"可是說真的"},{"start":2915.84,"end":2917.84,"text":"他在採購這個食品的時候"},{"start":2917.84,"end":2919.84,"text":"我還是會看一下儀表板"},{"start":2919.84,"end":2921.84,"text":"我想這個在實務上可能也"},{"start":2921.84,"end":2923.84,"text":"不太符合消費者的習慣"},{"start":2923.84,"end":2925.84,"text":"也不太能夠真的讓"},{"start":2925.84,"end":2927.84,"text":"民眾的知情權"},{"start":2927.84,"end":2929.84,"text":"可以充分的得到"},{"start":2929.84,"end":2931.84,"text":"那如果你們有更好"},{"start":2931.84,"end":2933.84,"text":"可以讓民眾有更好的知情的方向的話"},{"start":2933.84,"end":2935.84,"text":"我覺得之後還可以再討論"},{"start":2935.84,"end":2937.84,"text":"那我認為這條不如就先保留"},{"start":2938.29,"end":2940.29,"text":"好如果沒有共識我們這條"},{"start":2940.29,"end":2942.29,"text":"請請保留我們"},{"start":2942.29,"end":2944.29,"text":"續審第25條"},{"start":2944.29,"end":2946.29,"text":"廖宇翔等人的"},{"start":2946.29,"end":2948.29,"text":"的提案請為部說明"},{"start":2949.46,"end":2951.46,"text":"針對25條"},{"start":2951.46,"end":2953.46,"text":"有委員提案25條的"},{"start":2953.46,"end":2955.46,"text":"內容主要是針對中央主管機關"},{"start":2955.46,"end":2957.46,"text":"得對直接供應飲食"},{"start":2957.46,"end":2959.46,"text":"之場所以及"},{"start":2959.46,"end":2961.46,"text":"我們的販售"},{"start":2961.46,"end":2963.46,"text":"特定散裝食品的販售者"},{"start":2963.46,"end":2965.46,"text":"那提出"},{"start":2965.46,"end":2967.46,"text":"要明定若"},{"start":2967.46,"end":2969.46,"text":"若含乙型受"},{"start":2969.46,"end":2971.46,"text":"提出因強制標示之"},{"start":2971.46,"end":2973.46,"text":"鑒於食品標示"},{"start":2973.46,"end":2975.46,"text":"如同剛才所說明"},{"start":2975.46,"end":2977.46,"text":"一體適用於國產以及進口"},{"start":2977.46,"end":2979.46,"text":"產品動物用藥的確是"},{"start":2979.46,"end":2981.46,"text":"眾多不只有單一的動物"},{"start":2981.46,"end":2983.46,"text":"用藥做標示"},{"start":2983.46,"end":2985.46,"text":"那否則反提供"},{"start":2985.46,"end":2987.46,"text":"不正確的資訊國際上"},{"start":2987.46,"end":2989.46,"text":"也未有針對某一種動物"},{"start":2989.46,"end":2991.46,"text":"用藥要求標示"},{"start":2991.46,"end":2993.46,"text":"那我國為WTO會員"},{"start":2993.46,"end":2995.46,"text":"對標示規範"},{"start":2995.46,"end":2997.46,"text":"應遵循不其實的原則強制"},{"start":2997.46,"end":2999.46,"text":"要求產品進標示"},{"start":2999.46,"end":3001.46,"text":"含有乙型受提出並不符合"},{"start":3001.46,"end":3003.46,"text":"國際的規範"},{"start":3003.46,"end":3005.46,"text":"令儒修業一"},{"start":3005.46,"end":3007.46,"text":"等十六位委員提到"},{"start":3007.46,"end":3009.46,"text":"提案明定餐廳或"},{"start":3009.46,"end":3011.46,"text":"散專食品之"},{"start":3011.46,"end":3013.46,"text":"菜單或廣告中"},{"start":3013.46,"end":3015.46,"text":"涉及原鄉特色"},{"start":3015.46,"end":3017.46,"text":"農產品者"},{"start":3017.46,"end":3019.46,"text":"應標示其原料原產地"},{"start":3019.46,"end":3021.46,"text":"之行政區域或部落"},{"start":3021.46,"end":3023.46,"text":"名稱"},{"start":3023.46,"end":3025.46,"text":"非原鄉原料不得使用原鄉"},{"start":3025.46,"end":3027.46,"text":"部落等字樣"},{"start":3027.46,"end":3029.46,"text":"那現行法第"},{"start":3029.46,"end":3031.46,"text":"二十五條第二項"},{"start":3031.46,"end":3033.46,"text":"就是已經授權中央主管機關"},{"start":3033.46,"end":3035.46,"text":"得就特定事項以公告"},{"start":3035.46,"end":3037.46,"text":"方式處理"},{"start":3037.46,"end":3039.46,"text":"另對於食品標示及廣告"},{"start":3039.46,"end":3041.46,"text":"使用的原住民特色"},{"start":3041.46,"end":3043.46,"text":"相關的宣傳者"},{"start":3043.46,"end":3045.46,"text":"含有不實誇張"},{"start":3045.46,"end":3047.46,"text":"一身誤解"},{"start":3047.46,"end":3049.46,"text":"也可以依照我們現行法"},{"start":3049.46,"end":3051.46,"text":"裡面"},{"start":3051.46,"end":3053.46,"text":"二十八條第一項規定"},{"start":3053.46,"end":3055.46,"text":"予以裁處所以食安法立法"},{"start":3055.46,"end":3057.46,"text":"的目的為管理食品安全衛生"},{"start":3057.46,"end":3059.46,"text":"安全及品質"},{"start":3059.46,"end":3061.46,"text":"維護國民健康並確保"},{"start":3061.46,"end":3063.46,"text":"消費者權益目前我國之標示"},{"start":3063.46,"end":3065.46,"text":"規定與國際標示"},{"start":3065.46,"end":3067.46,"text":"大致相符"},{"start":3067.46,"end":3069.46,"text":"食品與及食品添加物"},{"start":3069.46,"end":3071.46,"text":"標示規定需一體"},{"start":3071.46,"end":3073.46,"text":"適用於國產及輸入"},{"start":3073.46,"end":3075.46,"text":"產品原料"},{"start":3075.46,"end":3077.46,"text":"符合"},{"start":3077.46,"end":3079.46,"text":"安全衛生一致標準"},{"start":3079.46,"end":3081.46,"text":"強制要求標示原料原"},{"start":3081.46,"end":3083.46,"text":"產地或原住民"},{"start":3083.46,"end":3085.46,"text":"特色原料來源供以"},{"start":3085.46,"end":3087.46,"text":"食安法立法目的"},{"start":3087.46,"end":3089.46,"text":"為終止不符號"},{"start":3089.46,"end":3091.46,"text":"依法符合不歧視"},{"start":3091.46,"end":3093.46,"text":"避免不必要的貿易"},{"start":3093.46,"end":3095.46,"text":"障礙等WTO國際規範"},{"start":3095.46,"end":3097.46,"text":"以上說明"},{"start":3097.59,"end":3099.59,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":3101.51,"end":3103.51,"text":"請問委員針對這一條"},{"start":3106.72,"end":3108.72,"text":"我想因為這一條跟剛剛"},{"start":3108.72,"end":3110.72,"text":"24條其實是一樣的概念啦"},{"start":3110.72,"end":3112.72,"text":"所以我覺得如果還是沒有"},{"start":3112.72,"end":3114.72,"text":"我覺得這個東西沒有公司的話是不是也保留"},{"start":3114.72,"end":3116.72,"text":"那我還是反過頭來講啦"},{"start":3116.72,"end":3118.72,"text":"不是說很強硬堅持"},{"start":3118.72,"end":3120.72,"text":"或是怎麼樣的"},{"start":3120.72,"end":3122.72,"text":"就是我想根本原因是要解除"},{"start":3122.72,"end":3124.72,"text":"人民對於這種"},{"start":3124.72,"end":3126.72,"text":"基因改造食品"},{"start":3126.72,"end":3128.72,"text":"或者是這種異形動物用藥"},{"start":3128.72,"end":3130.72,"text":"異形受體素等等的疑慮"},{"start":3130.72,"end":3132.72,"text":"所以我覺得"},{"start":3132.72,"end":3134.72,"text":"如果沒有辦法解決這個疑慮的話"},{"start":3134.72,"end":3136.72,"text":"這個條文就是我們必須"},{"start":3136.72,"end":3138.72,"text":"繼續往下保留"},{"start":3138.72,"end":3140.72,"text":"下一輪再來討論謝謝"},{"start":3141.14,"end":3143.14,"text":"那請問其他委員有沒有"},{"start":3143.14,"end":3145.14,"text":"要發言"},{"start":3146.14,"end":3148.14,"text":"沒有的話"},{"start":3148.32,"end":3150.32,"text":"就是25條也先行保留"},{"start":3153.85,"end":3155.85,"text":"我們續審第28條"},{"start":3155.85,"end":3157.85,"text":"請注意"},{"start":3157.85,"end":3159.85,"text":"我請教一下食藥署長"},{"start":3160.84,"end":3162.84,"text":"我們現在這些沙拉油"},{"start":3163.55,"end":3165.55,"text":"台糖大部分都是自己進口"},{"start":3167.32,"end":3169.32,"text":"自己裝櫃"},{"start":3169.32,"end":3171.32,"text":"那他大部分都是買美國的"},{"start":3171.32,"end":3173.32,"text":"黃豆"},{"start":3172.53,"end":3174.53,"text":"那美國的黃豆"},{"start":3174.53,"end":3176.53,"text":"事實上他的蛋白質含量高"},{"start":3177.41,"end":3179.41,"text":"第二個他的"},{"start":3179.41,"end":3181.41,"text":"濕度比較OK"},{"start":3182.4,"end":3184.4,"text":"第三他是用貨櫃裝"},{"start":3185.66,"end":3187.66,"text":"但是"},{"start":3186.91,"end":3188.91,"text":"大部分都是基改的黃豆"},{"start":3188.91,"end":3190.91,"text":"事實上我們已經"},{"start":3190.91,"end":3192.91,"text":"吃了很多"},{"start":3192.91,"end":3194.91,"text":"我去早餐店我會看他的"},{"start":3195.68,"end":3197.68,"text":"豆子"},{"start":3198,"end":3200,"text":"他是寫for human use"},{"start":3200,"end":3202,"text":"人在使用的"},{"start":3202,"end":3204,"text":"他有的是for animal use"},{"start":3205.81,"end":3207.81,"text":"那我會去注意"},{"start":3207.81,"end":3209.81,"text":"他是不是for human use"},{"start":3209.81,"end":3211.81,"text":"那再來基改"},{"start":3211.81,"end":3213.81,"text":"他就是給你標明他是基改的黃豆"},{"start":3213.81,"end":3215.81,"text":"那我們現在都已經"},{"start":3215.81,"end":3217.81,"text":"在吃了可能"},{"start":3217.81,"end":3219.81,"text":"大量在吃了"},{"start":3219.81,"end":3221.81,"text":"那我們現在黃過頭來希望"},{"start":3221.81,"end":3223.81,"text":"我們的"},{"start":3223.81,"end":3225.81,"text":"食安法修讓他不要進校園"},{"start":3225.81,"end":3227.81,"text":"那不要進哪裡"},{"start":3227.87,"end":3229.87,"text":"我請問署長"},{"start":3229.87,"end":3231.87,"text":"或者次長"},{"start":3231.09,"end":3233.09,"text":"啊"},{"start":3232.27,"end":3234.27,"text":"現在你是"},{"start":3234.27,"end":3236.27,"text":"該該你有沒有面對"},{"start":3236.27,"end":3238.27,"text":"還是說不能硬"},{"start":3238.27,"end":3240.27,"text":"你會遵守嗎"},{"start":3240.72,"end":3242.72,"text":"顏色問題觀念問題"},{"start":3242.72,"end":3244.72,"text":"好"},{"start":3245.28,"end":3247.28,"text":"謝謝委員的詢詢"},{"start":3247.28,"end":3249.28,"text":"有關於基因改造食品"},{"start":3249.28,"end":3251.28,"text":"在邊境進口"},{"start":3251.28,"end":3253.28,"text":"以及基改已經非基改的"},{"start":3253.28,"end":3255.28,"text":"我們在基改食品的部分"},{"start":3255.28,"end":3257.28,"text":"我們針對幾項是做完整的"},{"start":3257.28,"end":3259.28,"text":"審查確立"},{"start":3259.28,"end":3261.28,"text":"他的使用的"},{"start":3261.28,"end":3263.28,"text":"原油跟範圍"},{"start":3263.28,"end":3265.28,"text":"那這部分是已經確立下來了"},{"start":3265.28,"end":3267.28,"text":"那對於剛才特別提到"},{"start":3267.28,"end":3269.28,"text":"基因改造食品在校園"},{"start":3269.28,"end":3271.28,"text":"的部分那其實是在"},{"start":3271.28,"end":3273.28,"text":"教育部主管相關的法規"},{"start":3273.28,"end":3275.28,"text":"之下做了一些的規定"},{"start":3275.28,"end":3277.28,"text":"那我想各校的"},{"start":3277.28,"end":3279.28,"text":"的狀況呢"},{"start":3279.28,"end":3281.28,"text":"我們就尊重各校教育部的"},{"start":3281.28,"end":3283.28,"text":"主管的範圍那我們是以"},{"start":3283.28,"end":3285.28,"text":"食品的安全以及他的"},{"start":3285.28,"end":3287.28,"text":"可能的風險經過"},{"start":3287.28,"end":3289.28,"text":"食品安全風險"},{"start":3289.28,"end":3291.28,"text":"營養諮議會在先前"},{"start":3291.28,"end":3293.28,"text":"的也有基因改造食品"},{"start":3293.28,"end":3295.28,"text":"相關諮議會做審查"},{"start":3295.28,"end":3297.28,"text":"確立所以對於"},{"start":3297.28,"end":3299.28,"text":"基改的部分我們對基改"},{"start":3299.28,"end":3301.28,"text":"非基改的"},{"start":3301.28,"end":3303.28,"text":"一定要做揭露的部分"},{"start":3303.28,"end":3305.28,"text":"我們特別有提到在"},{"start":3305.28,"end":3307.28,"text":"標示上面非基改的一例"},{"start":3307.28,"end":3309.28,"text":"能夠標示非基改讓民眾"},{"start":3309.28,"end":3311.28,"text":"可以確立"},{"start":3311.28,"end":3313.28,"text":"也是我們在例行的長期"},{"start":3313.28,"end":3315.28,"text":"在後市場的稽查的部分"},{"start":3315.28,"end":3317.28,"text":"那也做這方面的稽查"},{"start":3317.28,"end":3319.28,"text":"讓民眾可以確實知道他"},{"start":3319.28,"end":3321.28,"text":"現在使用的"},{"start":3321.28,"end":3323.28,"text":"食品是屬於基改或是非基改"},{"start":3323.28,"end":3325.28,"text":"目前的實行的狀況以上說明"},{"start":3327.6,"end":3329.6,"text":"好謝謝我們四位"},{"start":3329.6,"end":3331.6,"text":"的討論內容"},{"start":3331.6,"end":3333.6,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":3333.6,"end":3335.6,"text":"衛生福利部的說明"},{"start":3336.42,"end":3338.42,"text":"所以25條就進行保留"},{"start":3338.42,"end":3340.42,"text":"我們續審第28條"},{"start":3340.42,"end":3342.42,"text":"有黃建豪等委員的提案"},{"start":3342.42,"end":3344.42,"text":"請衛福部說明"},{"start":3349.45,"end":3351.45,"text":"有關於修正條文第28條的部分"},{"start":3351.45,"end":3353.45,"text":"有委員提出"},{"start":3353.45,"end":3355.45,"text":"28條的部分"},{"start":3355.45,"end":3357.45,"text":"特別針對於我們"},{"start":3357.45,"end":3359.45,"text":"相關食品的標示"},{"start":3359.45,"end":3361.45,"text":"食品的食品添加物"},{"start":3361.45,"end":3363.45,"text":"以及"},{"start":3363.45,"end":3365.45,"text":"食品用洗潔劑進中央主管"},{"start":3365.45,"end":3367.45,"text":"公告的器具"},{"start":3367.45,"end":3369.45,"text":"食品包裝容器"},{"start":3369.45,"end":3371.45,"text":"及標示宣傳廣告"},{"start":3371.45,"end":3373.45,"text":"不得有不實誇張"},{"start":3373.45,"end":3375.45,"text":"一聲誤解的情形"},{"start":3375.45,"end":3377.45,"text":"那為部分食品"},{"start":3377.45,"end":3379.45,"text":"不符合"},{"start":3379.45,"end":3381.45,"text":"應誘兒食用之相關的規定"},{"start":3381.45,"end":3383.45,"text":"人可能透過文字"},{"start":3383.45,"end":3385.45,"text":"圖像符號及包裝"},{"start":3385.45,"end":3387.45,"text":"設計成立的方式"},{"start":3387.45,"end":3389.45,"text":"網路銷售"},{"start":3389.45,"end":3391.45,"text":"收購頁面或其他"},{"start":3391.45,"end":3393.45,"text":"方式表示暗示"},{"start":3393.45,"end":3395.45,"text":"或使用消費者"},{"start":3395.45,"end":3397.45,"text":"卻誤認其適合"},{"start":3397.45,"end":3399.45,"text":"供應應誘兒食用"},{"start":3399.45,"end":3401.45,"text":"所以應誘兒"},{"start":3401.45,"end":3403.45,"text":"處於生長發育期"},{"start":3403.45,"end":3405.45,"text":"消化代謝及"},{"start":3405.45,"end":3407.45,"text":"營養需求均以一般成人不同"},{"start":3407.45,"end":3409.45,"text":"食品標示及行銷資訊"},{"start":3409.45,"end":3411.45,"text":"由於避免誤導"},{"start":3411.45,"end":3413.45,"text":"原修正"},{"start":3413.45,"end":3415.45,"text":"第一項的部分"},{"start":3415.45,"end":3417.45,"text":"我們明定食品"},{"start":3417.45,"end":3419.45,"text":"未符合供應誘兒食用相關規定者"},{"start":3419.45,"end":3421.45,"text":"不得表示"},{"start":3421.45,"end":3423.45,"text":"暗示使人誤認其適合供應應誘兒食用"},{"start":3423.45,"end":3425.45,"text":"不得表示"},{"start":3425.45,"end":3427.45,"text":"暗示使人誤認其適合供應應誘兒食用"},{"start":3427.45,"end":3429.45,"text":"不得表示"},{"start":3429.45,"end":3431.45,"text":"這邊的第一項修正"},{"start":3431.45,"end":3433.45,"text":"也跟各位委員提供的"},{"start":3433.45,"end":3435.45,"text":"一些文字"},{"start":3435.45,"end":3437.45,"text":"我們作為中整之後"},{"start":3437.45,"end":3439.45,"text":"作為參差"},{"start":3439.45,"end":3441.45,"text":"所以在第28條第一項後段的部分"},{"start":3441.45,"end":3443.45,"text":"我們特別把它改成"},{"start":3443.45,"end":3445.45,"text":"加入食品未符合供應誘兒食用相關規定者"},{"start":3445.45,"end":3447.45,"text":"不得以任何方式表示暗示或使人誤解"},{"start":3447.45,"end":3449.45,"text":"不得以任何方式表示暗示或使人誤解"},{"start":3449.45,"end":3451.45,"text":"不得以任何方式表示暗示或使人誤解"},{"start":3451.45,"end":3453.45,"text":"不得以任何方式表示暗示或使人誤解"},{"start":3453.45,"end":3455.45,"text":"誤認其適合供應誘兒食用"},{"start":3455.45,"end":3457.45,"text":"不得以任何方式表示暗示或使人誤解"},{"start":3457.45,"end":3459.45,"text":"不得以任何方式表示暗示或使人誤解"},{"start":3459.45,"end":3461.45,"text":"不得以任何方式表示暗示或使人誤解"},{"start":3457.6,"end":3459.6,"text":"令第二點為確保特殊營養食品"},{"start":3459.6,"end":3461.6,"text":"令第二點為確保特殊營養食品"},{"start":3461.86,"end":3465.86,"text":"亦導致慢性病或不適合兒童及特殊需求者"},{"start":3465.86,"end":3469.86,"text":"長期食用之食品之食用安全"},{"start":3469.86,"end":3471.86,"text":"兼顧保障消費者知情權"},{"start":3471.86,"end":3479.86,"text":"並避免業者以包裝行銷或營養資訊落差誤導消費者"},{"start":3479.86,"end":3483.86,"text":"第三項明定中央主管機關"},{"start":3483.86,"end":3485.86,"text":"得要求加助必要警語"},{"start":3488.4,"end":3490.4,"text":"或接營養"},{"start":3491.91,"end":3493.91,"text":"接入營養資訊"},{"start":3494.11,"end":3498.11,"text":"其食品項目限制方式必要警語"},{"start":3498.11,"end":3502.11,"text":"營養資訊、揭露與其他因遵行事項"},{"start":3502.11,"end":3505.11,"text":"受強中央主管機關訂定之"},{"start":3505.11,"end":3509.11,"text":"所以就是我們在第三項的後段的部分"},{"start":3509.11,"end":3514.11,"text":"特別加入了必要警語、營養資訊、揭露"},{"start":3514.11,"end":3516.11,"text":"以上的文字、以上說明"},{"start":3517.34,"end":3519.34,"text":"趙委我再補充一下"},{"start":3519.34,"end":3520.34,"text":"好,請"},{"start":3520.34,"end":3522.34,"text":"好,謝謝各委員的版本"},{"start":3522.34,"end":3525.34,"text":"其實委員這邊我們也謝謝委員關注到"},{"start":3525.34,"end":3529.34,"text":"尤其我想在這一條裡面特別關注到"},{"start":3529.34,"end":3533.34,"text":"其中有包裝食品宣稱嬰幼兒食品標示規定"},{"start":3533.34,"end":3537.34,"text":"這個在日前其實食藥署這邊也有在研議"},{"start":3537.34,"end":3540.34,"text":"就是我們對於包裝食品宣稱嬰幼兒食品標示規定"},{"start":3540.34,"end":3544.34,"text":"這邊要做一些包含圖案或者是規定的調整"},{"start":3544.34,"end":3548.34,"text":"現有的是在食安法28條第三項有授權訂定"},{"start":3548.34,"end":3552.34,"text":"不適合兒童長期食用知識廣告跟促銷管理辦法"},{"start":3554.03,"end":3556.03,"text":"這個部分,不過因為委員這邊"},{"start":3556.03,"end":3558.03,"text":"其實在委員的版本裡面"},{"start":3558.03,"end":3559.03,"text":"就像剛剛署長提到"},{"start":3559.03,"end":3560.03,"text":"委員的版本裡面"},{"start":3560.03,"end":3563.03,"text":"雖然我們原先是用其他法條去授權"},{"start":3563.03,"end":3565.03,"text":"不過委員在這28條這邊要處理的話"},{"start":3565.03,"end":3566.03,"text":"我們也支持"},{"start":3566.03,"end":3568.03,"text":"所以剛剛署長提到在第一項"},{"start":3569.01,"end":3571.01,"text":"這個原條文的後面就是"},{"start":3571.01,"end":3573.01,"text":"不得有不實誇張或一身誤解之情形"},{"start":3574.11,"end":3576.11,"text":"之後那我們參採委員文字"},{"start":3576.11,"end":3578.11,"text":"以食品未符合專攻嬰幼兒食品"},{"start":3578.11,"end":3579.11,"text":"但相關規定者"},{"start":3579.11,"end":3583.11,"text":"亦不得以任何方式表示、暗示或使人誤認其"},{"start":3583.11,"end":3585.11,"text":"適合供嬰幼兒使用"},{"start":3585.11,"end":3587.11,"text":"不過委員這邊其中"},{"start":3587.11,"end":3590.11,"text":"網友名委員提到的糖納或飽和脂"},{"start":3590.11,"end":3594.11,"text":"防止任意含量達中央主管機關公告標準之食品"},{"start":3594.11,"end":3596.11,"text":"像我們也可以理解委員"},{"start":3596.11,"end":3598.11,"text":"其實是想要避免高糖高鹽的部分"},{"start":3598.11,"end":3601.11,"text":"但是這邊我們擔心就是說"},{"start":3601.11,"end":3603.11,"text":"對於假設是原來它是調味料"},{"start":3603.11,"end":3606.11,"text":"或基本某些食材可能會有造成一些在"},{"start":3606.11,"end":3610.11,"text":"管理上面、管制上面可能會造成這個誤解"},{"start":3610.11,"end":3613.11,"text":"因為比方說糖它這整瓶都是糖"},{"start":3613.11,"end":3615.11,"text":"但它用的時候只用少少量一點點"},{"start":3615.11,"end":3617.11,"text":"會有這個標示上面它是高大量"},{"start":3617.11,"end":3620.11,"text":"但是事實上使用的時候只有使用少量"},{"start":3620.11,"end":3621.11,"text":"所以用這樣子的話"},{"start":3621.11,"end":3624.11,"text":"當然我們可以理解我們要推動的是"},{"start":3624.11,"end":3627.11,"text":"希望讓民眾能夠了解健康的這個部分"},{"start":3627.11,"end":3629.11,"text":"那在我們的國健署"},{"start":3629.11,"end":3631.11,"text":"目前對於飲食、膳食相關的指引這個部分"},{"start":3631.11,"end":3632.11,"text":"已經在執行"},{"start":3632.11,"end":3637.11,"text":"所以擔心是說直接寫訂了糖納飽和脂防酸"},{"start":3637.11,"end":3639.11,"text":"這個任意達這個公告基準這邊"},{"start":3639.11,"end":3642.11,"text":"擔心在標示上面可能會導致一些"},{"start":3642.45,"end":3644.45,"text":"後面的爭議跟誤解"},{"start":3645.95,"end":3648.95,"text":"三項這一邊我們在原來文字裡面"},{"start":3648.95,"end":3650.95,"text":"其實食品之項目促銷"},{"start":3652.02,"end":3654.02,"text":"廣告之限制與停止刊播"},{"start":3654.02,"end":3656.02,"text":"然後後面加上頓號"},{"start":3656.02,"end":3659.02,"text":"再將必要錦羽、頓號、營養資訊揭露"},{"start":3659.02,"end":3662.02,"text":"及其他應遵循事項之辦法這樣子"},{"start":3662.02,"end":3666.02,"text":"讓我們把比方說包含必要這錦羽或營養揭露"},{"start":3666.02,"end":3668.02,"text":"我們有另外一個方式來處理"},{"start":3668.02,"end":3669.02,"text":"以上謝謝"},{"start":3668.91,"end":3671.91,"text":"好,有請王衛明委員發言"},{"start":3671.91,"end":3672.91,"text":"好,謝謝周圍"},{"start":3672.91,"end":3675.91,"text":"那個關於第二十八條"},{"start":3675.91,"end":3677.91,"text":"我這邊的條文內容"},{"start":3677.91,"end":3679.91,"text":"其實主要的是"},{"start":3679.91,"end":3682.91,"text":"因為包括糖跟鈉還有飽和脂防"},{"start":3682.91,"end":3684.91,"text":"如果它已經是超標"},{"start":3684.91,"end":3688.91,"text":"但是它還繼續用一些廣告的方式"},{"start":3688.91,"end":3693.91,"text":"或去誤導家長提供給孩子食用的話"},{"start":3693.91,"end":3697.91,"text":"我覺得那個是不利我們的兒童的健康"},{"start":3697.91,"end":3699.91,"text":"所以為什麼在我的版本裡面"},{"start":3699.91,"end":3702.91,"text":"我特別把這個列出來"},{"start":3702.91,"end":3707.91,"text":"因為有一些他可能為了追求口感或是什麼"},{"start":3707.91,"end":3709.91,"text":"但是那些食品業者"},{"start":3709.91,"end":3712.91,"text":"他並沒有特別去注意到說"},{"start":3712.91,"end":3714.91,"text":"兒童他真的適合食用的"},{"start":3714.91,"end":3716.91,"text":"大概是什麼樣的標準"},{"start":3716.91,"end":3719.91,"text":"那如果譬如說有的含糖量已經很高"},{"start":3719.91,"end":3723.91,"text":"但是他還是就是一直去促銷廣告"},{"start":3723.91,"end":3725.91,"text":"那家長其實也沒有"},{"start":3725.91,"end":3727.91,"text":"就是那麼的敏感去注意到"},{"start":3727.91,"end":3729.91,"text":"然後他可能都就是把他"},{"start":3729.91,"end":3731.91,"text":"譬如說有些含糖飲料很高的"},{"start":3731.91,"end":3733.91,"text":"然後他就標榜說適合孩子"},{"start":3733.91,"end":3735.91,"text":"但是其實沒有那麼適合"},{"start":3735.91,"end":3737.91,"text":"但是他不斷地去促銷廣告"},{"start":3737.91,"end":3738.91,"text":"我要問衛福部的是"},{"start":3738.91,"end":3740.91,"text":"針對這一類"},{"start":3741.59,"end":3743.59,"text":"因為我們現在進一步修法"},{"start":3743.59,"end":3745.59,"text":"我是覺得我們現在又少子化"},{"start":3745.59,"end":3747.59,"text":"孩子的健康真的很重要"},{"start":3747.59,"end":3749.59,"text":"那這種如果已經不符合你們"},{"start":3749.59,"end":3751.59,"text":"原來這個公告基準的"},{"start":3751.59,"end":3752.59,"text":"已經是過量的"},{"start":3752.59,"end":3754.59,"text":"他還繼續廣告"},{"start":3754.59,"end":3756.59,"text":"那你今天不定在這個母法"},{"start":3756.59,"end":3759.59,"text":"請問你要怎麼去限制他"},{"start":3759.59,"end":3762.59,"text":"你現在我會看起來是無法可管的"},{"start":3762.59,"end":3764.59,"text":"如果是這一類"},{"start":3764.59,"end":3765.59,"text":"他已經超標"},{"start":3765.59,"end":3766.59,"text":"但是他繼續廣告"},{"start":3766.59,"end":3768.59,"text":"我就叫衛福部"},{"start":3768.59,"end":3770.59,"text":"好"},{"start":3769.3,"end":3771.3,"text":"哪一個部分的法院去限制他"},{"start":3771.3,"end":3773.3,"text":"現在看起來是沒有的喔"},{"start":3774.42,"end":3775.42,"text":"那我這樣的寫法"},{"start":3775.42,"end":3776.42,"text":"就變成你有法源"},{"start":3776.42,"end":3778.42,"text":"我事實上是讓你們"},{"start":3778.42,"end":3780.42,"text":"可以在這個管制上面"},{"start":3780.42,"end":3782.42,"text":"因為我特別在乎的就是這一些"},{"start":3782.42,"end":3783.42,"text":"嬰幼兒的食品"},{"start":3783.42,"end":3785.42,"text":"真的我們只能從眼不能從寬"},{"start":3786.58,"end":3788.58,"text":"所以過去也有爆發一些這個"},{"start":3788.58,"end":3790.58,"text":"譬如說米餅啊"},{"start":3790.58,"end":3792.58,"text":"那有一些其實"},{"start":3792.58,"end":3794.58,"text":"他的"},{"start":3793.67,"end":3795.67,"text":"可能他雖然標榜明明就好像很適合"},{"start":3795.67,"end":3797.67,"text":"baby吃但有的其實沒有那麼適合"},{"start":3797.67,"end":3799.67,"text":"他可能糖其實過高"},{"start":3799.67,"end":3801.67,"text":"那像這種怎麼辦呢"},{"start":3801.67,"end":3803.67,"text":"就是說他可能那也多了一點"},{"start":3803.67,"end":3804.67,"text":"糖也多了一點"},{"start":3804.67,"end":3806.67,"text":"但他一直說很適合孩子"},{"start":3806.67,"end":3808.67,"text":"那有些阿公阿嬤就覺得"},{"start":3808.67,"end":3809.67,"text":"這君后啊"},{"start":3809.67,"end":3811.67,"text":"他就覺得這一類一定是"},{"start":3811.67,"end":3812.67,"text":"一定是好的"},{"start":3812.67,"end":3813.67,"text":"但事實上"},{"start":3813.67,"end":3815.67,"text":"他可能已經超過你的標準了"},{"start":3815.67,"end":3817.67,"text":"那我就就叫衛福部"},{"start":3817.67,"end":3819.67,"text":"那這一類"},{"start":3819.2,"end":3821.2,"text":"就是要怎麼管制"},{"start":3821.2,"end":3823.2,"text":"我個人的立場我覺得這一種嬰幼兒食品"},{"start":3823.2,"end":3825.2,"text":"當然你是從眼"},{"start":3825.2,"end":3827.2,"text":"你就是真的符合你標準再去廣告"},{"start":3827.2,"end":3829.2,"text":"不符合標準"},{"start":3829.2,"end":3831.2,"text":"不應該讓他們再大量去行銷吧"},{"start":3831.2,"end":3833.2,"text":"這個是我的立場"},{"start":3833.2,"end":3835.2,"text":"所以希望衛福部"},{"start":3835.2,"end":3837.2,"text":"可以給一個答案"},{"start":3837.51,"end":3839.51,"text":"好謝謝委員喔"},{"start":3839.51,"end":3841.51,"text":"我想這邊我們分幾層來講"},{"start":3841.51,"end":3843.51,"text":"所以剛剛委員提到嬰幼兒的話"},{"start":3843.51,"end":3845.51,"text":"因為嬰幼兒食品有另外的標準"},{"start":3845.51,"end":3847.51,"text":"嬰幼兒食品針對特定的這個"},{"start":3847.51,"end":3849.51,"text":"不論是營養素或者是重金屬"},{"start":3849.51,"end":3851.51,"text":"它有高於一般食品的標準"},{"start":3851.51,"end":3853.51,"text":"所以"},{"start":3853.51,"end":3855.51,"text":"對比較嚴格的標準"},{"start":3855.51,"end":3857.51,"text":"所以剛剛我們講的"},{"start":3857.51,"end":3859.51,"text":"嬰幼兒跟委員講的這邊的嬰幼兒"},{"start":3859.51,"end":3861.51,"text":"在第一項這邊我們特別去標"},{"start":3861.51,"end":3863.51,"text":"那在第三項委員這邊講到的"},{"start":3863.51,"end":3865.51,"text":"兒童的部分"},{"start":3865.51,"end":3867.51,"text":"這邊我們建議我們的文字"},{"start":3867.51,"end":3869.51,"text":"我們這邊建議的文字就是以必要"},{"start":3869.51,"end":3871.51,"text":"僅與營養資訊揭露"},{"start":3871.51,"end":3873.51,"text":"來協助就是說讓家長或者是"},{"start":3873.51,"end":3875.51,"text":"兒童可以理解跟辨認"},{"start":3875.51,"end":3877.51,"text":"他的使用的食品裡面"},{"start":3877.51,"end":3879.51,"text":"當然我們也知道我不希望兒童使用"},{"start":3879.51,"end":3881.51,"text":"高鹽高油的食品"},{"start":3881.51,"end":3883.51,"text":"細節我請在署長這邊還有再補充"},{"start":3888.2,"end":3890.2,"text":"這邊進一步的說明"},{"start":3890.2,"end":3892.2,"text":"因為SANFAR的第28條"},{"start":3892.2,"end":3894.2,"text":"的第三項其實就"},{"start":3894.2,"end":3896.2,"text":"有授權我們訂定"},{"start":3896.2,"end":3898.2,"text":"不適合兒童長期使用"},{"start":3898.2,"end":3900.2,"text":"之食品廣告及"},{"start":3900.2,"end":3902.2,"text":"促銷管理辦法"},{"start":3902.2,"end":3904.2,"text":"我們是不是可以在這個部分"},{"start":3904.2,"end":3906.2,"text":"那辦法裡面的第二條也針對"},{"start":3906.2,"end":3908.2,"text":"零食糖果飲料"},{"start":3908.2,"end":3910.2,"text":"冰品及"},{"start":3910.2,"end":3912.2,"text":"直接供應飲食場所的"},{"start":3912.2,"end":3914.2,"text":"食品若其止防"},{"start":3914.2,"end":3916.2,"text":"飽和止防"},{"start":3916.2,"end":3918.2,"text":"或額外添加糖質含量"},{"start":3919.37,"end":3921.37,"text":"達特定標準"},{"start":3921.37,"end":3923.37,"text":"我們以明文限制其對"},{"start":3923.37,"end":3925.37,"text":"兒童進行廣告與促銷"},{"start":3926.17,"end":3928.17,"text":"並訂有相關的法則"},{"start":3928.61,"end":3930.61,"text":"包括網路頁面"},{"start":3930.61,"end":3932.61,"text":"販售頁面"},{"start":3932.97,"end":3934.97,"text":"社群推播"},{"start":3934.74,"end":3936.74,"text":"贈品促銷"},{"start":3936.39,"end":3938.39,"text":"賣場陳列等多元的媒介"},{"start":3939.45,"end":3941.45,"text":"那一部分"},{"start":3941.84,"end":3945.84,"text":"以可取代正餐飲食之表示或"},{"start":3945.84,"end":3947.84,"text":"表徵為廣告"},{"start":3947.84,"end":3949.84,"text":"或對兒童以贈送加購玩具"},{"start":3949.84,"end":3951.84,"text":"或以玩具為獎勵"},{"start":3951.84,"end":3953.84,"text":"等行銷"},{"start":3954.5,"end":3956.5,"text":"為促銷"},{"start":3956.29,"end":3958.29,"text":"我們針對"},{"start":3958.29,"end":3960.29,"text":"市售一歲以下"},{"start":3960.29,"end":3962.29,"text":"嬰幼兒及較大嬰兒配方食品"},{"start":3962.29,"end":3964.29,"text":"同時去遵循"},{"start":3964.29,"end":3966.29,"text":"嬰兒及較大"},{"start":3967.02,"end":3971.02,"text":"嬰兒配方食品廣告及促銷方法的規定"},{"start":3971.02,"end":3975.02,"text":"不得涉及廣告及促銷行為"},{"start":3975.02,"end":3977.02,"text":"所以這邊特別提到的是包括兩個辦法"},{"start":3977.02,"end":3981.02,"text":"一個是不適合兒童長期使用之食品廣告及促銷管理辦法"},{"start":3981.02,"end":3987.02,"text":"以及嬰兒與較大嬰兒配方食品廣告及促銷管理辦法"},{"start":3987.02,"end":3991.02,"text":"這邊是不是可以跟委員這邊做進一步的討論"},{"start":3991.02,"end":3993.02,"text":"那我們在這兩個辦法裡面"},{"start":3993.02,"end":3995.02,"text":"可以進一步的做更嚴格的一些"},{"start":3995.02,"end":3997.02,"text":"來做限制"},{"start":3999.42,"end":4003.42,"text":"你剛剛講的那些其實也是之前我在立法院推動的"},{"start":4003.42,"end":4007.42,"text":"就是說就是要避免孩子去使用這個"},{"start":4007.42,"end":4009.42,"text":"高鈉高糖這一些垃圾食物"},{"start":4009.42,"end":4011.42,"text":"那我這次的修法裡面"},{"start":4011.42,"end":4015.42,"text":"我特別著重還有這個嬰幼兒"},{"start":4015.42,"end":4017.42,"text":"我這邊的文字其實都是嬰幼兒"},{"start":4017.42,"end":4019.42,"text":"另外一個就是說有一些廣告"},{"start":4019.42,"end":4021.42,"text":"他明明沒有那麼適合"},{"start":4021.42,"end":4023.42,"text":"他那個模糊的界線"},{"start":4023.42,"end":4025.42,"text":"但是他會去誤導家長說"},{"start":4025.42,"end":4027.42,"text":"他是適合嬰幼兒食品"},{"start":4027.42,"end":4029.42,"text":"這一類的廣告"},{"start":4029.42,"end":4031.42,"text":"我要問的是這一類"},{"start":4031.42,"end":4033.42,"text":"你們現在在現行的法規裡面"},{"start":4033.42,"end":4035.42,"text":"如果我們今天不在母法裡面講這麼清楚"},{"start":4035.42,"end":4039.42,"text":"你是有辦法去叫他下架的嗎"},{"start":4039.42,"end":4043.42,"text":"光是前面的這個條文"},{"start":4043.42,"end":4047.42,"text":"這邊如果不寫清楚限制其促銷廣告"},{"start":4047.42,"end":4049.42,"text":"而且要加註警語要揭露營養資訊"},{"start":4049.42,"end":4051.42,"text":"你這些都不寫的時候"},{"start":4051.42,"end":4055.42,"text":"你現行的法規跟辦法裡面"},{"start":4055.42,"end":4057.42,"text":"因為這個就變成是有點模糊空間"},{"start":4060.02,"end":4062.02,"text":"他就是去促銷"},{"start":4062.02,"end":4064.02,"text":"因為在商言商他就是能賣多就賣多"},{"start":4064.02,"end":4066.02,"text":"他一定說他什麼都適合"},{"start":4066.02,"end":4068.02,"text":"嬰幼兒什麼都適合"},{"start":4069.23,"end":4071.23,"text":"如果他的本質其實不適合的話"},{"start":4071.23,"end":4073.23,"text":"他沒有特別標榜他是嬰幼兒食品"},{"start":4073.23,"end":4075.23,"text":"這應該兩個層次"},{"start":4075.23,"end":4077.23,"text":"有一種是他本身就嬰幼兒食品"},{"start":4077.23,"end":4079.23,"text":"你們很嚴格對不對"},{"start":4079.23,"end":4081.23,"text":"但有一種是他說大人小孩都愛吃"},{"start":4081.23,"end":4083.23,"text":"然後說阿公阿嬤也可以買給嬰幼兒吃"},{"start":4083.23,"end":4085.23,"text":"但他的那個東西就是"},{"start":4087.07,"end":4089.07,"text":"他不是專屬嬰幼兒"},{"start":4089.07,"end":4091.07,"text":"但是他把廣告說"},{"start":4091.07,"end":4093.07,"text":"這個也都很適合"},{"start":4093.07,"end":4095.07,"text":"全家大小都愛吃"},{"start":4095.07,"end":4097.07,"text":"都可以吃但他明明不適合"},{"start":4097.07,"end":4099.07,"text":"我這邊的法醫"},{"start":4099.07,"end":4101.07,"text":"他真正的精神是說這一類"},{"start":4101.07,"end":4103.07,"text":"來與木混珠的"},{"start":4103.07,"end":4105.07,"text":"你有沒有辦法"},{"start":4105.07,"end":4107.07,"text":"叫他不要"},{"start":4106.95,"end":4108.95,"text":"說適合嬰幼兒"},{"start":4109.62,"end":4111.62,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4112.48,"end":4114.48,"text":"在這次我們修完之後"},{"start":4114.48,"end":4116.48,"text":"如果以委員文字到第一項的話"},{"start":4116.48,"end":4118.48,"text":"為符合專攻"},{"start":4118.48,"end":4120.48,"text":"嬰幼兒食用的話"},{"start":4120.48,"end":4122.48,"text":"他就不可以暗示或明示說他適合嬰幼兒"},{"start":4122.48,"end":4124.48,"text":"所以嬰幼兒這一塊"},{"start":4124.48,"end":4126.48,"text":"不可以就是說這一塊"},{"start":4126.48,"end":4128.48,"text":"如果我們這樣寫下去他比方說"},{"start":4128.48,"end":4130.48,"text":"這一個食品他不可以"},{"start":4130.48,"end":4132.48,"text":"給他不適合嬰幼兒食用"},{"start":4132.48,"end":4134.48,"text":"他上面又廣告說嬰幼兒"},{"start":4134.48,"end":4136.48,"text":"像前一段時間海苔就是這個問題"},{"start":4136.48,"end":4138.48,"text":"所以這一項第一項可以解決這個事情"},{"start":4138.48,"end":4140.48,"text":"好那剛剛委員的"},{"start":4140.48,"end":4142.48,"text":"修正條文的第三項裡面"},{"start":4142.48,"end":4144.48,"text":"是不是容我們調整一下下"},{"start":4144.48,"end":4146.48,"text":"文字就是說"},{"start":4146.48,"end":4148.48,"text":"因為委員這邊第三項是"},{"start":4148.48,"end":4150.48,"text":"中央專長機關對於特殊營養食品這一項"},{"start":4150.48,"end":4152.48,"text":"好 疫倒之慢性病或不是"},{"start":4152.48,"end":4154.48,"text":"和兒童及特殊需求長者"},{"start":4155.48,"end":4157.48,"text":"食用質食品其實"},{"start":4157.48,"end":4159.48,"text":"疫倒之慢性病或不適合兒童這邊剛剛委員所提到的"},{"start":4159.48,"end":4161.48,"text":"糖鈉或飽和脂肪酸"},{"start":4161.48,"end":4163.48,"text":"委員想要講的就是這件事"},{"start":4163.48,"end":4165.48,"text":"只是委員這邊遁號之後的糖鈉或飽和脂肪酸"},{"start":4165.48,"end":4167.48,"text":"是任意含量"},{"start":4167.4,"end":4169.4,"text":"我們就管到的是所有食品裡面的糖鈉了啦"},{"start":4171.26,"end":4173.26,"text":"所以是不是讓我們從不適合兒童這一邊"},{"start":4173.26,"end":4175.26,"text":"那這也是我們剛剛跟委員說明說"},{"start":4175.26,"end":4177.26,"text":"現行第28條第三項授權"},{"start":4177.26,"end":4179.26,"text":"我們的不適合兒童"},{"start":4179.26,"end":4181.26,"text":"就原來條文裡面的"},{"start":4181.26,"end":4183.26,"text":"不適合兒童長期食用之食品"},{"start":4183.26,"end":4185.26,"text":"那我們在細則就是"},{"start":4185.26,"end":4187.26,"text":"委員之前說我們現在在那個"},{"start":4187.26,"end":4189.26,"text":"他所授權之後我們所訂定的不適合兒童"},{"start":4189.26,"end":4191.26,"text":"長期食用之食品廣告及抽象管理"},{"start":4191.26,"end":4193.26,"text":"辦法就是用這一條來處理的"},{"start":4193.26,"end":4195.26,"text":"那所以委員想要"},{"start":4195.26,"end":4197.26,"text":"加強對於不適合兒童的"},{"start":4197.26,"end":4199.26,"text":"長期食用的這一塊"},{"start":4199.26,"end":4201.26,"text":"這一塊裡面的糖鈉或飽和脂肪酸"},{"start":4201.26,"end":4203.26,"text":"我們現行是寫在"},{"start":4203.26,"end":4205.26,"text":"管理辦法裡面"},{"start":4205.26,"end":4207.26,"text":"那委員如果想要拉回母法"},{"start":4207.26,"end":4209.26,"text":"是不是我們回來文字這邊我們把"},{"start":4210.76,"end":4212.76,"text":"就是說"},{"start":4212.76,"end":4214.76,"text":"因為其實現有已經有了啦"},{"start":4214.76,"end":4216.76,"text":"那"},{"start":4216.01,"end":4218.01,"text":"因為委員的這個文字我們"},{"start":4218.01,"end":4220.01,"text":"擔心的就是說糖鈉或飽和脂肪酸是"},{"start":4220.01,"end":4222.01,"text":"任意含量它變成是另外一種食品"},{"start":4222.01,"end":4224.01,"text":"就是這個食品的糖不論是不是給孩子"},{"start":4224.01,"end":4226.01,"text":"吃這個食品的糖這個食品的"},{"start":4226.01,"end":4228.01,"text":"鈉或這個食品的飽和脂肪酸任意含量"},{"start":4228.01,"end":4230.01,"text":"都達到我們公告的基準"},{"start":4230.01,"end":4232.01,"text":"他的公告跟兒童的公告是"},{"start":4232.01,"end":4234.01,"text":"兩個是不同的標準"},{"start":4234.01,"end":4236.01,"text":"所以我們是不是我們再調整一下讓"},{"start":4236.01,"end":4238.01,"text":"委員讓我們再跟委員調整一下文字"},{"start":4238.01,"end":4240.01,"text":"把這一項限縮回來"},{"start":4240.01,"end":4242.01,"text":"針對兒童好不好"},{"start":4242.01,"end":4244.01,"text":"好那麻煩你調整一下文字謝謝"},{"start":4244.18,"end":4246.18,"text":"對不起喔"},{"start":4246.83,"end":4248.83,"text":"嗯"},{"start":4248.55,"end":4250.55,"text":"我們在少子化的階段"},{"start":4250.55,"end":4252.55,"text":"除了家庭都應有的"},{"start":4252.55,"end":4254.55,"text":"都把它當成寶一樣"},{"start":4254.55,"end":4256.55,"text":"所以"},{"start":4256.19,"end":4258.19,"text":"在這個營養補充的部分"},{"start":4258.19,"end":4260.19,"text":"包括常規營養或者是"},{"start":4260.19,"end":4262.19,"text":"一些額外補充一定都"},{"start":4262.19,"end":4264.19,"text":"非常的用心"},{"start":4264.19,"end":4266.19,"text":"所以其實我玉米委員說"},{"start":4266.19,"end":4268.19,"text":"想要促成的或"},{"start":4268.19,"end":4270.19,"text":"擔心的事情的確是很需要"},{"start":4270.19,"end":4272.19,"text":"去考量"},{"start":4272.19,"end":4274.19,"text":"那不過剛剛外務部也有說明說"},{"start":4274.19,"end":4276.19,"text":"如果我們把這個全部的"},{"start":4276.19,"end":4278.19,"text":"內容玉米委員所提供的這些"},{"start":4278.19,"end":4280.19,"text":"第三項的修正糖"},{"start":4280.19,"end":4282.19,"text":"等等像是不是"},{"start":4282.19,"end":4284.19,"text":"好像加強"},{"start":4284.19,"end":4286.19,"text":"這方面的注意可是又擔心"},{"start":4286.19,"end":4288.19,"text":"會不會有其他"},{"start":4288.19,"end":4290.19,"text":"會注意到的地方"},{"start":4290.19,"end":4292.19,"text":"所以我會建議是不是在必要"},{"start":4292.19,"end":4294.19,"text":"就是我們修正在必要"},{"start":4294.19,"end":4296.19,"text":"檢疫營養資訊接合等等的部分"},{"start":4296.19,"end":4298.19,"text":"如果"},{"start":4299.39,"end":4301.39,"text":"沒有需要把這個"},{"start":4301.39,"end":4303.39,"text":"那麼細節寫到母法裡面"},{"start":4303.39,"end":4305.39,"text":"可不可以把這個精神在"},{"start":4305.39,"end":4307.39,"text":"立法說明也加強說明"},{"start":4307.39,"end":4309.39,"text":"讓它更完整"},{"start":4309.39,"end":4311.39,"text":"等一下修正的內容也可以"},{"start":4311.39,"end":4313.39,"text":"我們從陰謀上再做確認"},{"start":4313.39,"end":4315.39,"text":"好不好"},{"start":4315.39,"end":4317.39,"text":"就是說我們玉米是不是"},{"start":4317.39,"end":4319.39,"text":"我們從必要檢疫營養資訊"},{"start":4319.39,"end":4321.39,"text":"接落這邊然後到時候我們會怎麼樣"},{"start":4321.39,"end":4323.39,"text":"處理來做個說明"},{"start":4323.39,"end":4325.39,"text":"那陳青薇委員請"},{"start":4325.39,"end":4327.39,"text":"謝謝因為剛聽到"},{"start":4327.39,"end":4329.39,"text":"王運文的發言"},{"start":4329.39,"end":4331.39,"text":"所以我也想感謝一下衛福部"},{"start":4331.39,"end":4333.39,"text":"有參彩我們邱正君委員的提案"},{"start":4333.39,"end":4335.39,"text":"那因為王運文的發言"},{"start":4335.39,"end":4337.39,"text":"我也回想起就是當初我們在"},{"start":4340.74,"end":4342.74,"text":"質詢這個本偏皮的標準的時候"},{"start":4342.74,"end":4344.74,"text":"以韓國為例"},{"start":4344.74,"end":4346.74,"text":"他們就非常的強化"},{"start":4346.74,"end":4348.74,"text":"嬰兒食品安全的保障"},{"start":4348.74,"end":4350.74,"text":"我們當時才發現說"},{"start":4350.74,"end":4352.74,"text":"原來韓國的標準"},{"start":4352.74,"end":4354.74,"text":"在成人還有嬰幼兒方面"},{"start":4354.74,"end":4356.74,"text":"是不同的成人是"},{"start":4356.74,"end":4358.74,"text":"2 ppm"},{"start":4358.74,"end":4360.74,"text":"嬰幼兒食品對於本偏皮"},{"start":4360.74,"end":4362.74,"text":"配方食品是定在"},{"start":4362.74,"end":4364.74,"text":"1 ppm以下"},{"start":4364.74,"end":4366.74,"text":"當然我覺得"},{"start":4366.74,"end":4368.74,"text":"王運文剛剛的提案"},{"start":4368.74,"end":4370.74,"text":"也許衛福部現在不知道"},{"start":4370.74,"end":4372.74,"text":"要怎麼把他列入母法的細項"},{"start":4372.74,"end":4374.74,"text":"但是他的精神應該是"},{"start":4374.74,"end":4376.74,"text":"以廣告不實這樣子"},{"start":4376.74,"end":4378.74,"text":"的"},{"start":4378.47,"end":4380.47,"text":"的"},{"start":4380.31,"end":4382.31,"text":"態度去面對吧"},{"start":4382.31,"end":4384.31,"text":"應該是這個意思"},{"start":4384.31,"end":4386.31,"text":"不知道怎麼把它再精緻化"},{"start":4386.31,"end":4388.31,"text":"可是我覺得對於"},{"start":4388.31,"end":4390.31,"text":"我國食安的標準希望在"},{"start":4390.31,"end":4392.31,"text":"嬰幼兒的食品可以更加嚴格加強"},{"start":4392.31,"end":4394.31,"text":"這應該是所有委員一致的"},{"start":4394.31,"end":4396.31,"text":"共識謝謝"},{"start":4397,"end":4399,"text":"好那我們是不是先從"},{"start":4399,"end":4401,"text":"螢幕看一下可以有沒有辦法"},{"start":4401,"end":4403,"text":"調出大家可以"},{"start":4404.08,"end":4406.08,"text":"接受或者是有共識的文字"},{"start":4406.08,"end":4408.08,"text":"我們現在可以處理"},{"start":4408.08,"end":4410.08,"text":"我們在"},{"start":4410.08,"end":4412.08,"text":"這個"},{"start":4412.25,"end":4414.25,"text":"第三項的文字這裡"},{"start":4414.25,"end":4416.25,"text":"因為第三項文字也就是講到"},{"start":4416.25,"end":4418.25,"text":"或導致慢性病或不適合兒童"},{"start":4418.25,"end":4420.25,"text":"特殊等等這邊"},{"start":4421.52,"end":4423.52,"text":"促銷廣告之限制與"},{"start":4423.52,"end":4425.52,"text":"停止刊播那必要警語"},{"start":4425.52,"end":4427.52,"text":"營養資訊揭露那必要警語這邊"},{"start":4427.52,"end":4429.52,"text":"我們再另外再去"},{"start":4429.52,"end":4431.52,"text":"從我們原來這一條裡面的"},{"start":4431.52,"end":4433.52,"text":"不適合兒童長期使用之"},{"start":4433.52,"end":4435.52,"text":"食品廣告促銷管理辦法這邊的"},{"start":4435.52,"end":4437.52,"text":"警語我們再去要求他必須加足"},{"start":4437.52,"end":4439.52,"text":"因為母法這邊有必要警語了"},{"start":4439.52,"end":4441.52,"text":"那如果這一個食品裡面他是"},{"start":4441.52,"end":4443.52,"text":"不適合兒童長期使用"},{"start":4443.52,"end":4445.52,"text":"那我們在他的相關的促銷管理"},{"start":4445.52,"end":4447.52,"text":"辦法裡面他在食品標示裡面"},{"start":4447.52,"end":4449.52,"text":"我們就到時候我們再另外用"},{"start":4449.52,"end":4451.52,"text":"去處理說這個食品不適合"},{"start":4451.52,"end":4453.52,"text":"比方說他含高糖分超過"},{"start":4453.52,"end":4455.52,"text":"百分之多少不適合兒童使用"},{"start":4455.52,"end":4457.52,"text":"我們在細節裡面另外到時候在"},{"start":4457.52,"end":4459.52,"text":"警語上面再加註在這個食品標示"},{"start":4459.52,"end":4461.52,"text":"上面好不好讓家長就是"},{"start":4461.52,"end":4463.52,"text":"一眼而知因為"},{"start":4463.52,"end":4465.52,"text":"我也大概知道市面上有一些甚至在"},{"start":4465.52,"end":4467.52,"text":"超商販賣零食他事實上是小朋友很愛"},{"start":4467.52,"end":4469.52,"text":"但是事實上是不適合我懂委員的"},{"start":4469.52,"end":4471.52,"text":"意思所以如果讓我們用這樣的"},{"start":4471.52,"end":4473.52,"text":"文字就是因為他到時候會在他的"},{"start":4473.52,"end":4475.52,"text":"這個上面要求必要警語"},{"start":4475.52,"end":4477.52,"text":"那所以畢竟有些食品"},{"start":4477.52,"end":4479.52,"text":"他在販賣的時候因為嬰兒食品是"},{"start":4479.52,"end":4481.52,"text":"特別規定他如果嬰兒食品"},{"start":4481.52,"end":4483.52,"text":"他符合標準但是兒童這邊"},{"start":4483.52,"end":4485.52,"text":"他因為兒童有的體重也跟大人"},{"start":4485.52,"end":4487.52,"text":"差不多了等等所以他的標準"},{"start":4487.52,"end":4489.52,"text":"來講沒有這樣的處理但是我們上面在"},{"start":4489.52,"end":4491.52,"text":"到時候讓我們從這樣子的"},{"start":4491.52,"end":4493.52,"text":"母法裡面用必要警語"},{"start":4493.52,"end":4495.52,"text":"那我們到時候在子法裡面"},{"start":4495.52,"end":4497.52,"text":"就是我們在不適合兒童長期"},{"start":4497.52,"end":4499.52,"text":"使用食品廣告及促銷管理辦法這邊"},{"start":4499.52,"end":4501.52,"text":"另外要求他們加註警語"},{"start":4501.52,"end":4503.52,"text":"就是標註比方說糖或鈉或"},{"start":4503.52,"end":4505.52,"text":"不飽和脂肪酸的"},{"start":4505.52,"end":4507.52,"text":"含量超過多少所以不適合兒童使用"},{"start":4507.52,"end":4509.52,"text":"我們再把它加上去是不是可以讓我們用"},{"start":4509.52,"end":4511.52,"text":"螢幕上所講的所你"},{"start":4511.52,"end":4513.52,"text":"的這樣的修正文字"},{"start":4514.97,"end":4516.97,"text":"在這部分做"},{"start":4516.97,"end":4518.97,"text":"用這樣的方式來把"},{"start":4518.97,"end":4520.97,"text":"加註了要修改"},{"start":4520.97,"end":4522.97,"text":"的部分寫"},{"start":4524.07,"end":4526.07,"text":"好"},{"start":4527.12,"end":4529.12,"text":"我們再打"},{"start":4528.44,"end":4530.44,"text":"好"},{"start":4529.7,"end":4531.7,"text":"另外標示我們就把這個說明寫在子法"},{"start":4531.7,"end":4533.7,"text":"這樣那是不是委員同意我們用螢幕上"},{"start":4533.7,"end":4535.7,"text":"這樣子的文字修正"},{"start":4535.7,"end":4537.7,"text":"所以請問會互宣讀一下修正的文字內容"},{"start":4537.7,"end":4539.7,"text":"也請各位委員來看一下"},{"start":4539.7,"end":4541.7,"text":"螢幕上的修正條文的內容"},{"start":4542.24,"end":4544.24,"text":"我們修正的文字內容"},{"start":4544.24,"end":4546.24,"text":"我念一下"},{"start":4546.24,"end":4548.24,"text":"針對修正內容"},{"start":4548.24,"end":4550.24,"text":"我們"},{"start":4549.82,"end":4551.82,"text":"特別在第一項的部分"},{"start":4551.82,"end":4553.82,"text":"我們在"},{"start":4555.1,"end":4557.1,"text":"第一項全部我都開始念"},{"start":4558.25,"end":4560.25,"text":"食品食品添加物"},{"start":4560.25,"end":4562.25,"text":"食品燉耗"},{"start":4562.25,"end":4564.25,"text":"食品添加物燉耗"},{"start":4564.25,"end":4566.25,"text":"食品用清潔劑"},{"start":4566.25,"end":4568.25,"text":"及精中央主管機關"},{"start":4568.25,"end":4570.25,"text":"公告之食品器具"},{"start":4570.25,"end":4572.25,"text":"燉耗"},{"start":4572.25,"end":4574.25,"text":"食品容器或包裝"},{"start":4574.25,"end":4576.25,"text":"燉耗其標示"},{"start":4576.25,"end":4578.25,"text":"燉耗宣傳或廣告"},{"start":4578.25,"end":4580.25,"text":"燉耗不得有不實"},{"start":4580.25,"end":4582.25,"text":"誇張或一身誤解之情形"},{"start":4582.25,"end":4584.25,"text":"分號"},{"start":4584.25,"end":4586.25,"text":"食品未符合"},{"start":4586.25,"end":4588.25,"text":"中因誘而實用相關規定者"},{"start":4588.25,"end":4590.25,"text":"逗號"},{"start":4590.25,"end":4592.25,"text":"不得以任何方式表示"},{"start":4594.15,"end":4596.15,"text":"燉耗"},{"start":4595.46,"end":4597.46,"text":"暗示或使人誤解其"},{"start":4599.87,"end":4601.87,"text":"誤認其適合供因誘而實用"},{"start":4605.68,"end":4607.68,"text":"我剛才在上面有一個"},{"start":4607.68,"end":4609.68,"text":"意志我們是不是可以把它給"},{"start":4609.68,"end":4611.68,"text":"刪除"},{"start":4613.55,"end":4615.55,"text":"我剛才在上面有一個意志我們是不是可以把它給刪除"},{"start":4616.7,"end":4618.7,"text":"對於我們暗示或使人誤解"},{"start":4618.7,"end":4620.7,"text":"對於我們暗示或使人誤解"},{"start":4620.7,"end":4622.7,"text":"誤認的部分可不可以改成誤解"},{"start":4627.66,"end":4629.66,"text":"第二項食品不得為醫療"},{"start":4630.46,"end":4632.46,"text":"效能之標示"},{"start":4632.46,"end":4634.46,"text":"燉耗宣傳或廣告"},{"start":4634.46,"end":4636.46,"text":"句號"},{"start":4636.18,"end":4638.18,"text":"中央主管機關對於"},{"start":4638.18,"end":4640.18,"text":"特殊營養食品燉耗"},{"start":4640.18,"end":4642.18,"text":"亦導致慢性病"},{"start":4642.18,"end":4644.18,"text":"或不適合兒童及特殊"},{"start":4644.18,"end":4646.18,"text":"需求者長期"},{"start":4646.18,"end":4648.18,"text":"使用之食品"},{"start":4648.18,"end":4650.18,"text":"燉耗得限制期"},{"start":4650.3,"end":4652.3,"text":"促銷或廣告分號"},{"start":4652.3,"end":4654.3,"text":"其食品之項目"},{"start":4654.3,"end":4656.3,"text":"促銷或廣告之限制"},{"start":4656.3,"end":4658.3,"text":"與停止刊播燉耗"},{"start":4658.3,"end":4660.3,"text":"必要緊與燉耗"},{"start":4660.3,"end":4662.3,"text":"營養資訊、揭露"},{"start":4662.3,"end":4664.3,"text":"及其他應遵行"},{"start":4664.3,"end":4666.3,"text":"事項之辦法都好"},{"start":4666.3,"end":4668.3,"text":"由中央主管機關"},{"start":4668.3,"end":4670.3,"text":"定制"},{"start":4670.25,"end":4672.25,"text":"第一項不實燉耗"},{"start":4672.25,"end":4674.25,"text":"誇張或一身誤解"},{"start":4674.25,"end":4676.25,"text":"與第二項效能"},{"start":4676.25,"end":4678.25,"text":"醫療效能之"},{"start":4678.35,"end":4680.35,"text":"認定基準燉耗"},{"start":4680.35,"end":4682.35,"text":"宣傳或廣告之內容"},{"start":4682.35,"end":4684.35,"text":"燉耗方式及其他"},{"start":4684.35,"end":4686.35,"text":"應遵循"},{"start":4686.47,"end":4688.47,"text":"遵行事項之準則分號"},{"start":4688.47,"end":4690.47,"text":"由中央主管機關"},{"start":4690.47,"end":4692.47,"text":"定制句號"},{"start":4692.47,"end":4694.47,"text":"以上"},{"start":4699.44,"end":4701.44,"text":"我覺得你們那個內容裡面"},{"start":4701.44,"end":4703.44,"text":"就是那個如果這次要新增"},{"start":4703.44,"end":4705.44,"text":"必要緊與跟營養資訊揭露"},{"start":4705.44,"end":4707.44,"text":"可不可以在哪一個地方"},{"start":4707.44,"end":4709.44,"text":"就是說應加註"},{"start":4710.31,"end":4712.31,"text":"就是營就是必要條件"},{"start":4712.31,"end":4714.31,"text":"你懂嗎"},{"start":4713.35,"end":4715.35,"text":"不是說"},{"start":4716.05,"end":4718.05,"text":"一定要加註緊與"},{"start":4721.84,"end":4723.84,"text":"對"},{"start":4723.84,"end":4725.84,"text":"應加註緊與"},{"start":4725.84,"end":4727.84,"text":"就是說"},{"start":4727.84,"end":4729.84,"text":"這是必須做的事情"},{"start":4729.84,"end":4731.84,"text":"你已經是不適合的"},{"start":4731.84,"end":4733.84,"text":"你這些是一定要加註緊與的"},{"start":4733.84,"end":4735.84,"text":"沒有模糊空間"},{"start":4735.84,"end":4737.84,"text":"就是看可以怎麼加"},{"start":4737.34,"end":4739.34,"text":"得限制"},{"start":4739.55,"end":4741.55,"text":"得限制促銷廣告"},{"start":4741.7,"end":4743.7,"text":"委員可不可以在必要緊與的"},{"start":4743.7,"end":4745.7,"text":"我們修正成應加註緊與"},{"start":4745.7,"end":4747.7,"text":"對應加註緊與好不好"},{"start":4747.7,"end":4749.7,"text":"好"},{"start":4749.7,"end":4751.7,"text":"應加註緊與這樣子比較清晰"},{"start":4753.46,"end":4755.46,"text":"必要兩個字槓掉"},{"start":4758.59,"end":4760.59,"text":"就這樣就OK了"},{"start":4760.72,"end":4762.72,"text":"OK"},{"start":4762.67,"end":4764.67,"text":"對"},{"start":4764.67,"end":4766.67,"text":"請個人說還有意見"},{"start":4775.87,"end":4777.87,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4778.21,"end":4782.21,"text":"如果大家經過充分討論"},{"start":4782.21,"end":4784.21,"text":"對於我們所修正的內容"},{"start":4784.21,"end":4786.21,"text":"沒有意見的話"},{"start":4786.21,"end":4788.21,"text":"就照委員王立民等人提案"},{"start":4788.21,"end":4790.21,"text":"修正通過"},{"start":4790.57,"end":4792.57,"text":"請再加強這個立法說明的部分"},{"start":4792.57,"end":4794.57,"text":"另外補充立法說明"},{"start":4796.49,"end":4798.49,"text":"是"},{"start":4798.23,"end":4800.23,"text":"我想問一下"},{"start":4800.81,"end":4802.81,"text":"因為可不可以具體說明一下"},{"start":4802.81,"end":4804.81,"text":"什麼是暗示"},{"start":4806.5,"end":4808.5,"text":"或使人誤解這個在"},{"start":4808.5,"end":4810.5,"text":"定義上會不會到時候變成一個"},{"start":4810.5,"end":4812.5,"text":"就是未來"},{"start":4812.5,"end":4814.5,"text":"很多爭議的部分"},{"start":4814.5,"end":4816.5,"text":"有跟委員說明暗示或使人誤解"},{"start":4816.5,"end":4818.5,"text":"應該是今年有一個例子"},{"start":4818.5,"end":4820.5,"text":"就是那個海苔的例子"},{"start":4820.5,"end":4822.5,"text":"就是說它在上面"},{"start":4822.5,"end":4824.5,"text":"它並不是專攻應用而實用的食品"},{"start":4824.5,"end":4826.5,"text":"可是它上面用寶寶的頭"},{"start":4826.5,"end":4828.5,"text":"寶寶的圖像"},{"start":4828.5,"end":4830.5,"text":"暗示這是寶寶吃的"},{"start":4830.5,"end":4832.5,"text":"OK我的想法只是說"},{"start":4832.5,"end":4834.5,"text":"我覺得這個例子是OK啦"},{"start":4834.5,"end":4836.5,"text":"但是問題就是說未來"},{"start":4836.5,"end":4838.5,"text":"有沒有一個標準或是可以"},{"start":4838.5,"end":4840.5,"text":"可以指引的相關的辦法"},{"start":4840.5,"end":4842.5,"text":"要不然我覺得未來"},{"start":4842.5,"end":4844.5,"text":"會不會有很多的誤解"},{"start":4844.5,"end":4846.5,"text":"我怕會不會有很多的"},{"start":4847.37,"end":4849.37,"text":"就到時候會不會很多反而"},{"start":4849.37,"end":4851.37,"text":"也有很多行政上會有人說我這個沒有"},{"start":4851.37,"end":4853.37,"text":"你這個有到時候到底"},{"start":4853.37,"end":4855.37,"text":"怎麼判定"},{"start":4855.37,"end":4857.37,"text":"的確在針對廣告的部分"},{"start":4857.37,"end":4859.37,"text":"提出來的我們會做整體的"},{"start":4859.37,"end":4861.37,"text":"判定因為整體的觀感"},{"start":4861.37,"end":4863.37,"text":"跟表現來做判定"},{"start":4863.37,"end":4865.37,"text":"的確如委員這邊提到的"},{"start":4865.37,"end":4867.37,"text":"那我想在"},{"start":4867.37,"end":4869.37,"text":"我們會提出相關的"},{"start":4869.37,"end":4871.37,"text":"一些如果有裁罰"},{"start":4871.37,"end":4873.37,"text":"一定是會讓業者做進一步說明"},{"start":4873.37,"end":4875.37,"text":"那一般來講我們看到的都是相當明顯的"},{"start":4875.37,"end":4877.37,"text":"在裁罰"},{"start":4877.37,"end":4879.37,"text":"我們也進一步呢我們的廣告"},{"start":4879.37,"end":4881.37,"text":"合規指引裡面也會把它列出來"},{"start":4881.37,"end":4883.37,"text":"以上說明"},{"start":4884.76,"end":4886.76,"text":"沒有我沒有問題"},{"start":4886.76,"end":4888.76,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":4888.76,"end":4890.76,"text":"那主席這邊可不可以進一步來回應一下"},{"start":4890.76,"end":4892.76,"text":"剛才陳金輝委員特別提到"},{"start":4892.76,"end":4894.76,"text":"食品中其他污染物質"},{"start":4894.76,"end":4896.76,"text":"及毒素的限量"},{"start":4896.76,"end":4898.76,"text":"部分我們在副表3的"},{"start":4898.76,"end":4900.76,"text":"部分針對本篇批"},{"start":4900.76,"end":4902.76,"text":"那特別針對嬰幼兒的"},{"start":4902.76,"end":4904.76,"text":"食品的部分在2.5的部分"},{"start":4904.76,"end":4906.76,"text":"那我們有幾項對嬰幼兒"},{"start":4906.76,"end":4908.76,"text":"配方食品及較大嬰兒配方"},{"start":4908.76,"end":4910.76,"text":"輔助食品我們也是"},{"start":4910.76,"end":4912.76,"text":"訂的比一般更嚴格的"},{"start":4912.76,"end":4914.76,"text":"規定是在1.0PPP"},{"start":4914.76,"end":4916.76,"text":"那對嬰幼兒"},{"start":4916.76,"end":4918.76,"text":"2.5-3"},{"start":4918.76,"end":4920.76,"text":"2.5-2裡面特殊醫療用途"},{"start":4920.76,"end":4922.76,"text":"嬰兒配方食品"},{"start":4922.76,"end":4924.76,"text":"嬰幼兒穀物類"},{"start":4924.76,"end":4926.76,"text":"輔助食品及"},{"start":4926.76,"end":4928.76,"text":"嬰幼兒副食品"},{"start":4928.76,"end":4930.76,"text":"都是在1.0PPP"},{"start":4930.76,"end":4932.76,"text":"的範圍大概跟委員做進一步的"},{"start":4932.76,"end":4934.76,"text":"報告"},{"start":4935.56,"end":4938.56,"text":"好 如果到這邊沒有其他問題"},{"start":4938.56,"end":4940.56,"text":"我們28條就照"},{"start":4940.56,"end":4942.56,"text":"再次確定照委員王玉敏"},{"start":4942.56,"end":4944.56,"text":"等人提案修正通過"},{"start":4945.48,"end":4947.48,"text":"我們再續審第30條"},{"start":4947.48,"end":4949.48,"text":"請問候說明"},{"start":4950.64,"end":4952.64,"text":"針對30條的部分"},{"start":4952.64,"end":4954.64,"text":"那委員"},{"start":4954.64,"end":4956.64,"text":"包括提案的部分"},{"start":4956.64,"end":4958.64,"text":"針對輸入"},{"start":4958.64,"end":4960.64,"text":"資金改造或經"},{"start":4960.64,"end":4962.64,"text":"農業部指定之"},{"start":4962.64,"end":4964.64,"text":"大宗農產品"},{"start":4964.64,"end":4966.64,"text":"應於邊境採取"},{"start":4966.64,"end":4968.64,"text":"逐批或逐傳之查驗"},{"start":4968.64,"end":4970.64,"text":"不適用防範"},{"start":4970.64,"end":4972.64,"text":"風險調降"},{"start":4972.64,"end":4974.64,"text":"查驗品"},{"start":4974.64,"end":4976.64,"text":"查驗律規定這邊做進一步"},{"start":4976.64,"end":4978.64,"text":"說明因為輸入食品"},{"start":4978.64,"end":4981.64,"text":"邊境查驗因應風險管理為原則"},{"start":4981.64,"end":4983.64,"text":"符合國際的規範"},{"start":4983.64,"end":4985.64,"text":"我們國際間輸入食品"},{"start":4985.64,"end":4987.64,"text":"是邊境查驗"},{"start":4987.64,"end":4991.64,"text":"是依食品的安全風險及科學證據"},{"start":4991.64,"end":4993.64,"text":"採取適當之查驗措施"},{"start":4993.64,"end":4997.64,"text":"以EWTO SPS協定精神"},{"start":4997.64,"end":5000.64,"text":"相關措施應具備科學依據"},{"start":5000.64,"end":5005.64,"text":"避免對國際貿易造成不必要之限制"},{"start":5005.64,"end":5009.64,"text":"倘因法律明定特定產品一律"},{"start":5009.64,"end":5011.64,"text":"逐批或逐傳查驗"},{"start":5011.64,"end":5013.64,"text":"且排除風險調降的機制"},{"start":5013.64,"end":5017.64,"text":"供以現行的以風險程度動態調整的"},{"start":5017.64,"end":5021.64,"text":"查驗措施之管理原則有所差異"},{"start":5021.64,"end":5023.64,"text":"因損盛的評估"},{"start":5023.64,"end":5024.64,"text":"第二"},{"start":5024.64,"end":5027.64,"text":"現行法規以有邊境查驗"},{"start":5027.64,"end":5029.64,"text":"查驗律調整的機制"},{"start":5029.64,"end":5031.64,"text":"我們依據《十三法》33條"},{"start":5031.64,"end":5033.64,"text":"第三項授權"},{"start":5033.64,"end":5038.64,"text":"就明定了食品及相關產品輸入查驗辦法"},{"start":5038.64,"end":5043.64,"text":"依舊輸入食品之查驗方式及相關事項定有規範"},{"start":5043.64,"end":5047.64,"text":"消除並導入了邊境預測智能的系統"},{"start":5047.64,"end":5049.64,"text":"即時會運算風險"},{"start":5049.64,"end":5051.64,"text":"進行風險的預警"},{"start":5051.64,"end":5053.64,"text":"針對不合格產品"},{"start":5053.64,"end":5056.64,"text":"即會依風險調升查驗率"},{"start":5056.64,"end":5061.64,"text":"以具備對風險變化調整查驗強度的彈性"},{"start":5061.88,"end":5062.88,"text":"第三"},{"start":5062.88,"end":5065.88,"text":"經營改造食品原料以有較嚴格的源頭管理"},{"start":5066.91,"end":5069.91,"text":"令口娘主管機關的權責及查驗量能"},{"start":5069.91,"end":5072.91,"text":"現行的基因改造食品原料"},{"start":5072.91,"end":5075.91,"text":"需於輸入前完成查驗登記"},{"start":5075.91,"end":5078.91,"text":"輸入時亦逐案書面審查"},{"start":5078.91,"end":5081.91,"text":"其管理依照一般食品嚴格"},{"start":5082.56,"end":5086.56,"text":"至於經農業部指定至大宗農產品"},{"start":5086.56,"end":5090.56,"text":"涉及與農業主管機關權責的分工"},{"start":5090.56,"end":5093.56,"text":"相關指定範圍仍需要進一步釐清"},{"start":5093.56,"end":5096.56,"text":"除外一線有的查驗資料"},{"start":5096.56,"end":5099.56,"text":"大宗農產品是不合格率低"},{"start":5099.56,"end":5102.56,"text":"倘一律要求逐批或逐傳查驗"},{"start":5102.56,"end":5107.56,"text":"可能排擠其他高風險產品的查驗量能及資源"},{"start":5107.56,"end":5110.56,"text":"反不利整體風險管理的效能"},{"start":5111.45,"end":5117.45,"text":"第四 我們建議維持現行風險分級及動態調整查驗率之機制"},{"start":5117.45,"end":5122.45,"text":"我們現行法規已具備風險預警及查驗率調整之管理機制"},{"start":5122.45,"end":5126.45,"text":"它有特定風險升高之產品"},{"start":5126.45,"end":5129.45,"text":"或有強化管理之必要"},{"start":5129.45,"end":5133.45,"text":"可以依現行法規及風險評估結果"},{"start":5133.45,"end":5135.45,"text":"適時提高查驗強度"},{"start":5135.45,"end":5139.45,"text":"原提案所定一律逐批或逐傳查驗"},{"start":5139.45,"end":5142.45,"text":"並排除風險調降機制的做法"},{"start":5142.45,"end":5149.45,"text":"上有國際規範全職分工及行政資源配置等面向的考量"},{"start":5149.45,"end":5152.45,"text":"我們建議是否能夠維持現行的規定"},{"start":5152.45,"end":5155.45,"text":"另外有針對如先一羅委員提到"},{"start":5155.45,"end":5158.45,"text":"針對長期流入原住民地區"},{"start":5158.45,"end":5162.45,"text":"偏遠地區消費市場之低價食品"},{"start":5162.45,"end":5165.45,"text":"中央主管即將因提高抽驗比例"},{"start":5165.45,"end":5167.45,"text":"並加強特定風險差的事項"},{"start":5167.45,"end":5171.45,"text":"我們也特別提到剛才的邊境輸入的部分"},{"start":5171.45,"end":5173.45,"text":"已經有風險的原則"},{"start":5173.45,"end":5178.45,"text":"另外特別提到所謂的低價的產品"},{"start":5178.45,"end":5180.45,"text":"所謂低價不必然"},{"start":5180.45,"end":5183.45,"text":"我們就代表整個食品安全風險較高"},{"start":5183.45,"end":5187.45,"text":"且食品流向原住民地區或偏遠地區"},{"start":5187.45,"end":5191.45,"text":"亦非判定食品本身風險程度的直接指標"},{"start":5191.45,"end":5193.45,"text":"中上我們是不是建議"},{"start":5193.45,"end":5196.45,"text":"還是以食品安全風險為基礎的查驗的機制"},{"start":5196.45,"end":5200.45,"text":"若有原住民地區或偏遠地區"},{"start":5200.45,"end":5202.45,"text":"食品安全保障的特殊需求"},{"start":5202.45,"end":5207.45,"text":"亦可透過我們強化我們的地方地區市場的監測"},{"start":5207.45,"end":5211.45,"text":"流通的抽驗及違規產品的追蹤等措施"},{"start":5211.45,"end":5215.45,"text":"以更有效能夠保障我們當地的消費者的權益"},{"start":5215.45,"end":5216.45,"text":"以上說明"},{"start":5217.34,"end":5221.34,"text":"MING PAO CANADA .COM"},{"start":5218.05,"end":5220.05,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":5220.05,"end":5223.05,"text":"那議員委員以後我們再請金歐委員"},{"start":5223.05,"end":5225.05,"text":"議員委員先請"},{"start":5224.28,"end":5227.28,"text":"好關於這個第30條"},{"start":5227.28,"end":5230.28,"text":"這個查驗的部分其實是蠻重要的"},{"start":5230.28,"end":5235.28,"text":"因為我們現在真的蠻多都是輸入型的商品"},{"start":5235.28,"end":5240.28,"text":"這個特別是最近有關於這個馬鈴薯這個問題"},{"start":5240.28,"end":5243.28,"text":"我想引發非常多國人的焦慮"},{"start":5243.28,"end":5247.28,"text":"因為馬鈴薯他的進口馬鈴薯他的那個運用範圍很廣"},{"start":5247.28,"end":5250.28,"text":"薯條大家也很愛吃"},{"start":5250.28,"end":5253.28,"text":"但是最近發生的這個馬鈴薯事件"},{"start":5253.28,"end":5255.28,"text":"就是說被查獲"},{"start":5255.28,"end":5257.28,"text":"他其實是未發芽"},{"start":5257.28,"end":5260.28,"text":"但是他已經超標了"},{"start":5260.28,"end":5263.28,"text":"那這樣的情況就是大家問衛福部"},{"start":5263.28,"end":5268.28,"text":"衛福部來說我們不需要提高那個整體抽驗的頻率"},{"start":5268.28,"end":5271.28,"text":"我覺得食品安全的風險管理"},{"start":5271.28,"end":5274.28,"text":"應該是就是見尾之助"},{"start":5274.28,"end":5276.28,"text":"在從一個微小的地方一個個案"},{"start":5276.28,"end":5278.28,"text":"你就應該要那個敏感度"},{"start":5278.28,"end":5282.28,"text":"就是要去提高你整體的這個預判"},{"start":5282.28,"end":5284.28,"text":"就像之前我們在看蘇丹紅事件"},{"start":5284.28,"end":5286.28,"text":"那時候我在委員會也說"},{"start":5286.28,"end":5289.28,"text":"你已經有一期兩期"},{"start":5289.28,"end":5292.28,"text":"你應該就要全面性的很擴大性的"},{"start":5292.28,"end":5295.28,"text":"去提高你的那個抽驗的比例"},{"start":5295.28,"end":5296.28,"text":"但是"},{"start":5296.81,"end":5299.81,"text":"在這次的馬鈴薯事件當中"},{"start":5299.81,"end":5301.81,"text":"我看到衛福部其實對外的反應是說"},{"start":5301.81,"end":5304.81,"text":"沒有必要提高抽驗比例"},{"start":5304.81,"end":5307.81,"text":"但是你必須從單一的事件已經看到了"},{"start":5307.81,"end":5309.81,"text":"為什麼他還沒有發芽"},{"start":5309.81,"end":5312.81,"text":"那他的龍蝴蜢就已經超標了"},{"start":5312.81,"end":5314.81,"text":"這個其實就是一個很大的警訊"},{"start":5314.81,"end":5316.81,"text":"那怎麼你們就會認為說"},{"start":5316.81,"end":5318.81,"text":"完全不需要去調整"},{"start":5318.81,"end":5321.81,"text":"所以我們現在如果沒有一個"},{"start":5321.81,"end":5324.81,"text":"一個更明確的標準"},{"start":5324.81,"end":5326.81,"text":"或者是規範的時候"},{"start":5326.81,"end":5328.81,"text":"那這個行政部門"},{"start":5328.81,"end":5330.81,"text":"有時候你會來自不同的壓力"},{"start":5330.81,"end":5332.81,"text":"你可能是來自經濟部的壓力"},{"start":5332.81,"end":5334.81,"text":"可能來自台美談判的壓力"},{"start":5334.81,"end":5336.81,"text":"或者這個國家就是美國"},{"start":5336.81,"end":5339.81,"text":"我們可能就會比較更審慎不敢"},{"start":5340.46,"end":5343.46,"text":"那之前蘇丹紅其實很快就可以"},{"start":5343.46,"end":5345.46,"text":"我們不應該因他是不同的國家"},{"start":5345.46,"end":5346.46,"text":"而有任何的差別"},{"start":5346.46,"end":5348.46,"text":"我們的實案標準只有一個"},{"start":5348.46,"end":5350.46,"text":"就是我們要確保國人健康"},{"start":5350.46,"end":5352.46,"text":"所以不要因為其他的政治"},{"start":5352.46,"end":5354.46,"text":"因素其他國家這個龐大的壓力"},{"start":5354.46,"end":5356.46,"text":"而去退縮了"},{"start":5356.46,"end":5358.46,"text":"或是改變我們的標準"},{"start":5358.46,"end":5360.46,"text":"那所以今天討論到這個"},{"start":5360.46,"end":5361.46,"text":"我覺得是蠻關鍵的"},{"start":5361.46,"end":5362.46,"text":"那待會如果有時間"},{"start":5362.46,"end":5364.46,"text":"我覺得是不是請衛福部"},{"start":5364.46,"end":5366.46,"text":"來跟大家解釋一下為什麼"},{"start":5366.67,"end":5368.67,"text":"這個最近這個馬鈴薯"},{"start":5369.45,"end":5371.45,"text":"就是從單一事件"},{"start":5371.45,"end":5373.45,"text":"這個華遠食品這個已經發現有這種"},{"start":5373.45,"end":5375.45,"text":"還未發芽然後就已經"},{"start":5375.45,"end":5376.45,"text":"融潰檢超標"},{"start":5376.45,"end":5378.45,"text":"你們還說其他的"},{"start":5378.45,"end":5379.45,"text":"其他家的就不管嗎"},{"start":5379.45,"end":5381.45,"text":"其他就不需要提高查驗標準嗎"},{"start":5381.45,"end":5383.45,"text":"這樣的一個標準不一致"},{"start":5383.45,"end":5386.45,"text":"我想這個是國人最擔心的喔"},{"start":5386.45,"end":5388.45,"text":"所以今天因為討論到30條"},{"start":5388.45,"end":5389.45,"text":"我覺得這個部分"},{"start":5389.45,"end":5391.45,"text":"也應該要給外界一個合理的說明"},{"start":5391.45,"end":5393.45,"text":"以上謝謝"},{"start":5393.58,"end":5394.58,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":5394.58,"end":5397.58,"text":"30條現在人民很關心的就是"},{"start":5397.58,"end":5399.58,"text":"類似上次那樣子的案例"},{"start":5399.58,"end":5401.58,"text":"大家會希望知道說"},{"start":5401.58,"end":5402.58,"text":"你唸到的可能沒有發芽"},{"start":5402.58,"end":5405.58,"text":"但是龍虧檢已經超標這些馬鈴薯"},{"start":5405.58,"end":5407.58,"text":"他是不是還有供應其他的供應商"},{"start":5407.58,"end":5409.58,"text":"還是只有單一"},{"start":5409.58,"end":5412.58,"text":"那一家廠商的洋芋片"},{"start":5412.58,"end":5414.58,"text":"或是大家會想看到說"},{"start":5414.58,"end":5417.58,"text":"你已經發現他超標"},{"start":5417.58,"end":5420.58,"text":"可是為什麼後續我們沒有再"},{"start":5420.58,"end":5422.58,"text":"增加他的查驗的批次"},{"start":5422.58,"end":5424.58,"text":"或者是頻率等等"},{"start":5424.58,"end":5426.58,"text":"這個是跟人民的直覺"},{"start":5426.58,"end":5428.58,"text":"就是很違背的"},{"start":5428.58,"end":5431.58,"text":"但是這邊還是要稍微肯定一下"},{"start":5431.58,"end":5433.58,"text":"食藥署有加入很多委員的建議"},{"start":5433.58,"end":5435.58,"text":"有一段有寫到說"},{"start":5435.58,"end":5439.58,"text":"中央主管機關應該依照來源國產品業者"},{"start":5439.58,"end":5442.58,"text":"國際預警還有供應鏈的風險"},{"start":5442.58,"end":5445.58,"text":"調整查驗頻率跟措施"},{"start":5445.58,"end":5447.58,"text":"這一點是予以肯定"},{"start":5447.58,"end":5449.58,"text":"不過呢國眾兩黨的版本"},{"start":5449.58,"end":5451.58,"text":"還有很多委員說的是"},{"start":5451.58,"end":5455.58,"text":"希望任由危害安全衛生之餘"},{"start":5455.58,"end":5457.58,"text":"其輸入量和供應範圍"},{"start":5457.58,"end":5459.58,"text":"達中央主管機關公告的標準"},{"start":5459.58,"end":5461.58,"text":"要逐批查驗"},{"start":5461.58,"end":5464.58,"text":"那這個標準我們也授權給您來訂定"},{"start":5464.58,"end":5466.58,"text":"相信你也可以訂出一個"},{"start":5466.58,"end":5468.58,"text":"人民可以接受的合理的範圍"},{"start":5468.58,"end":5471.58,"text":"像上次這個油的範圍"},{"start":5471.58,"end":5473.58,"text":"其實就非常非常大"},{"start":5473.58,"end":5476.58,"text":"那之前其實行政院長他在質詢的時候"},{"start":5476.58,"end":5478.58,"text":"也有說出足科馬鈴薯"},{"start":5478.58,"end":5481.58,"text":"他認為都可以查驗的這樣子的話"},{"start":5481.58,"end":5483.58,"text":"所以大家當然是覺得"},{"start":5483.58,"end":5486.58,"text":"你的條文就是你對國外"},{"start":5486.58,"end":5489.58,"text":"所收進來的標準一下子差這麼多的話"},{"start":5489.58,"end":5493.58,"text":"那當然是要增加查驗的頻率"},{"start":5493.58,"end":5494.58,"text":"讓大家安心"},{"start":5494.58,"end":5498.58,"text":"那另外一個就是我比較在意的是"},{"start":5498.58,"end":5500.58,"text":"第三十項魔法第二項"},{"start":5500.58,"end":5502.58,"text":"查驗績效優良的業者"},{"start":5502.58,"end":5505.58,"text":"中央主管機關的採取優惠之措施"},{"start":5505.58,"end":5509.58,"text":"查驗績效優良的業者中央的這一點"},{"start":5509.58,"end":5511.58,"text":"大家會覺得如果有安全"},{"start":5513.26,"end":5517.26,"text":"衛生之魚消失前是不適用的"},{"start":5517.26,"end":5521.26,"text":"不適用的也就是像上次這個油品的事件"},{"start":5521.26,"end":5524.26,"text":"有一家他就一直沒有去查"},{"start":5524.26,"end":5526.26,"text":"是因為他過去的績效優良"},{"start":5526.26,"end":5528.26,"text":"但我們不能因為他過去的績效優良"},{"start":5528.26,"end":5530.26,"text":"但發生了大規模的事件"},{"start":5530.26,"end":5532.26,"text":"安全衛生疑慮已經消失了"},{"start":5532.26,"end":5536.26,"text":"我們就不能再適用這個第二項"},{"start":5536.26,"end":5538.26,"text":"所以我認為魔法也應該清楚的規範"},{"start":5538.26,"end":5540.26,"text":"到底什麼樣的情況之下"},{"start":5540.26,"end":5542.26,"text":"不可以適用第二項的規範"},{"start":5542.26,"end":5545.26,"text":"以上兩點是我相信這邊很多委員比較重視的"},{"start":5545.26,"end":5546.26,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":5547.37,"end":5548.37,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":5548.37,"end":5551.37,"text":"我想大家也都很擔心"},{"start":5551.37,"end":5554.37,"text":"有科學證據的你要去預警"},{"start":5554.37,"end":5557.37,"text":"如果實際證據還不到那麼完整的"},{"start":5557.37,"end":5559.37,"text":"當然我們要去預防"},{"start":5559.37,"end":5563.37,"text":"所以預警跟預防都是在食品安全裡面非常重要"},{"start":5563.37,"end":5565.37,"text":"我們要去掌握的一些需求"},{"start":5565.37,"end":5567.37,"text":"那針對兩位委員的部分"},{"start":5567.37,"end":5570.37,"text":"是不是也請維吾這邊來說明"},{"start":5570.59,"end":5572.59,"text":"好謝謝委員的剛才的提問"},{"start":5572.59,"end":5576.59,"text":"首先針對我們進口馬林署"},{"start":5576.59,"end":5579.59,"text":"我們近年來整個查驗情形"},{"start":5579.59,"end":5581.59,"text":"也讓國人能夠安心"},{"start":5581.59,"end":5586.59,"text":"所以我們在114年查驗的報驗有769批"},{"start":5586.59,"end":5590.59,"text":"那查驗的31批其實查驗的都是合格"},{"start":5590.59,"end":5594.59,"text":"那115年有463批的報驗"},{"start":5594.59,"end":5597.59,"text":"我們19批的查驗只有一批的不合格"},{"start":5597.59,"end":5599.59,"text":"那針對這樣子的不合格"},{"start":5599.59,"end":5601.59,"text":"我們統計起來"},{"start":5601.59,"end":5604.59,"text":"那對於整個查驗的標準的部分"},{"start":5604.59,"end":5607.59,"text":"我們其實一直強調標準從來沒有改變"},{"start":5607.59,"end":5610.59,"text":"那衛福部負責食品衛生安全"},{"start":5610.59,"end":5612.59,"text":"對於輸入馬林署的食品安全"},{"start":5612.59,"end":5614.59,"text":"衛生規範的做法沒有放寬"},{"start":5615.3,"end":5616.3,"text":"那維持不變"},{"start":5616.3,"end":5618.3,"text":"包含我們衛生標準輸入的查驗程序"},{"start":5618.3,"end":5621.3,"text":"以及對於違規的產品的處置"},{"start":5621.3,"end":5624.3,"text":"對於其中特別是有關輪回減的部分"},{"start":5624.3,"end":5629.3,"text":"是包含在食品中污染物質及毒素的衛生標準中"},{"start":5629.3,"end":5632.3,"text":"那馬林署的快精之輪回減"},{"start":5632.3,"end":5638.3,"text":"是達對於總配糖生物減的限量是200毫克每公斤"},{"start":5638.3,"end":5641.3,"text":"那這個規定也是108年1月1日起"},{"start":5641.3,"end":5644.3,"text":"所以我們過去的查驗裡面"},{"start":5644.3,"end":5648.3,"text":"查驗出來在2014到2015年的期間"},{"start":5648.3,"end":5651.3,"text":"查驗50批裡面我們有一批的部分"},{"start":5651.3,"end":5653.3,"text":"針對這部分我們風險管控"},{"start":5653.3,"end":5656.3,"text":"其實我們也進行了風險管控的調整"},{"start":5656.3,"end":5660.3,"text":"那我們是按照風險管理及科學依據來辦理查驗"},{"start":5660.3,"end":5663.3,"text":"那抽驗的樣本部分"},{"start":5663.3,"end":5671.3,"text":"我們進口馬林署從115年4月26日起到115年12月31日"},{"start":5671.3,"end":5674.3,"text":"我們原先採取的一般抽批2到10%"},{"start":5674.3,"end":5677.3,"text":"那抽驗最高的10%"},{"start":5677.3,"end":5681.3,"text":"那我們115年今年的10月8日起"},{"start":5681.3,"end":5684.3,"text":"我們其實再次的調高整個抽驗的批次"},{"start":5684.3,"end":5687.3,"text":"從頭到腳加強抽批從20到50%的抽批"},{"start":5687.3,"end":5692.3,"text":"所以我們就是有馬上就會進行整個風險的調整"},{"start":5692.3,"end":5695.3,"text":"那我們經查驗檢驗不符合規定者"},{"start":5695.3,"end":5697.3,"text":"不管剛剛是輪回減的不合格"},{"start":5697.3,"end":5699.3,"text":"或者是農藥的不合格"},{"start":5699.3,"end":5702.3,"text":"那我們整批都判定不合格"},{"start":5702.3,"end":5705.3,"text":"那並會依照規定辦理退運或是銷毀"},{"start":5705.3,"end":5707.3,"text":"不得進入國內的市場"},{"start":5707.3,"end":5709.3,"text":"並得公布我們相關資訊"},{"start":5709.3,"end":5711.3,"text":"同時提高整個抽驗的頻率"},{"start":5711.3,"end":5716.3,"text":"那我們隨時會再針對這個抽驗的比例調整"},{"start":5716.3,"end":5719.3,"text":"如果還有任何的抽驗的異常"},{"start":5719.3,"end":5722.3,"text":"我們最高會達到出批的抽驗的狀況"},{"start":5722.3,"end":5724.3,"text":"所以我們對於馬林署的管理"},{"start":5724.3,"end":5727.3,"text":"在於我們雙重的把關"},{"start":5727.64,"end":5730.64,"text":"農業部跟衛福部這邊我們相互通報"},{"start":5730.64,"end":5731.64,"text":"如果有任何有發芽的"},{"start":5731.64,"end":5734.64,"text":"其實我們就會通報我們這邊進一步的抽驗"},{"start":5734.64,"end":5736.64,"text":"這邊也跟委員說明"},{"start":5736.64,"end":5738.64,"text":"我們最近也有看到發芽的有4批在我們"},{"start":5738.64,"end":5739.64,"text":"我們也是抽驗的"},{"start":5739.64,"end":5741.64,"text":"抽驗的結果也都是合格的"},{"start":5741.64,"end":5743.64,"text":"那進一步的說明"},{"start":5743.64,"end":5746.64,"text":"那對剛才提到發驗我們的加驗之後的結果"},{"start":5746.64,"end":5748.64,"text":"那我們就違規的部分"},{"start":5748.64,"end":5751.64,"text":"對於農業部這邊進一步的違規的剔除"},{"start":5751.64,"end":5756.64,"text":"因此加工的馬林署在進口到台灣之前"},{"start":5756.64,"end":5758.64,"text":"在出口的時候就會符合農業部"},{"start":5758.64,"end":5762.64,"text":"在國外的部分就符合農業部的檢疫的規範"},{"start":5762.64,"end":5763.64,"text":"抵達台灣之後"},{"start":5763.64,"end":5767.64,"text":"在邊境上需要通過檢疫在農業部負責"},{"start":5767.64,"end":5769.64,"text":"以及食品衛生安全的查驗"},{"start":5769.64,"end":5773.64,"text":"在衛福部負責兩部會發現發芽時的互相通報"},{"start":5773.64,"end":5777.64,"text":"經食藥署檢驗所謂總配糖生物檢"},{"start":5777.64,"end":5779.64,"text":"且檢包含龍葵檢"},{"start":5779.64,"end":5781.64,"text":"合格後才由農業部執行"},{"start":5781.64,"end":5787.64,"text":"監督業者進行足跪足科的選別作業"},{"start":5787.64,"end":5789.64,"text":"那我們成功檢驗不合格者"},{"start":5789.64,"end":5791.64,"text":"就會整批的退營跟銷毀"},{"start":5791.64,"end":5792.64,"text":"所以目前整體的做法"},{"start":5792.64,"end":5795.64,"text":"我們是完全是依照我們的邊境查驗"},{"start":5795.64,"end":5796.64,"text":"以及風險為基礎"},{"start":5796.64,"end":5799.64,"text":"我們看到的狀況是怎麼樣而做"},{"start":5799.64,"end":5801.64,"text":"隨時的一些進一步的調整"},{"start":5801.64,"end":5803.64,"text":"那對於基屋廠商的部分"},{"start":5803.64,"end":5804.64,"text":"也進一步做說明"},{"start":5804.64,"end":5808.64,"text":"如果一年內檢驗大概十批以上都是符合的"},{"start":5808.64,"end":5811.64,"text":"表示這是過去的進口來源"},{"start":5811.64,"end":5812.64,"text":"其實當然有一定的穩定性"},{"start":5812.64,"end":5814.64,"text":"就如同剛剛委員提到的"},{"start":5814.64,"end":5816.64,"text":"除了這一家以外"},{"start":5816.64,"end":5817.64,"text":"它是不是有到其他家"},{"start":5817.64,"end":5821.64,"text":"其實我們在檢驗的後端的邊境的部分"},{"start":5821.64,"end":5823.64,"text":"就會identify某一個廠商"},{"start":5823.64,"end":5826.64,"text":"他的不同的台灣廠商進來"},{"start":5826.64,"end":5829.64,"text":"但是源頭的是共同廠商"},{"start":5829.64,"end":5831.64,"text":"我們會成為我們在抽驗的時候"},{"start":5831.64,"end":5833.64,"text":"進入我們的所謂的抽驗"},{"start":5833.64,"end":5836.64,"text":"邊境border protect intelligence"},{"start":5836.64,"end":5839.64,"text":"的增加抽驗比例的一個變相"},{"start":5839.64,"end":5841.64,"text":"那對於一年內檢驗的批數"},{"start":5841.64,"end":5843.64,"text":"二十批以上是符合的"},{"start":5843.64,"end":5845.64,"text":"我們也會有所謂優良的廠商"},{"start":5845.64,"end":5849.64,"text":"兩年內符合三十批以上的使得申請"},{"start":5849.64,"end":5851.64,"text":"那我們對於我們逐批查驗"},{"start":5851.64,"end":5854.64,"text":"查看查驗者就會不適用"},{"start":5854.64,"end":5857.64,"text":"因為他就是過去沒有這樣子的績效"},{"start":5857.64,"end":5862.64,"text":"所以目前我們邊境對我們人員上面的配置"},{"start":5862.64,"end":5864.64,"text":"我們希望能夠更精準的"},{"start":5864.64,"end":5866.64,"text":"對於高風險進行查驗"},{"start":5866.64,"end":5868.64,"text":"那也能夠對國人"},{"start":5868.64,"end":5871.64,"text":"我們面對我們風險上面的對國人食安"},{"start":5871.64,"end":5874.64,"text":"確確實實會有風險的地方"},{"start":5874.64,"end":5876.64,"text":"能夠作為加強高風險的抽屁"},{"start":5876.64,"end":5878.64,"text":"如果我們現在剛才提到的"},{"start":5878.64,"end":5881.64,"text":"對於特定的大宗農產品"},{"start":5881.64,"end":5884.64,"text":"或者是精英改造食品等等"},{"start":5884.64,"end":5886.64,"text":"其實過去我們的查驗的時候"},{"start":5886.64,"end":5888.64,"text":"都看得到他的查驗事實上"},{"start":5888.64,"end":5890.64,"text":"是在加強的查驗的狀態"},{"start":5890.64,"end":5892.64,"text":"那如果他是常態上是符合標準的"},{"start":5892.64,"end":5893.64,"text":"比例是高的"},{"start":5893.64,"end":5898.64,"text":"那國人的安全我們也是持續會作為最高的關注"},{"start":5898.64,"end":5899.64,"text":"以上說明"},{"start":5900.06,"end":5902.06,"text":"那個不好意思"},{"start":5902.06,"end":5903.06,"text":"我直接問"},{"start":5903.06,"end":5905.06,"text":"因為剛剛署長你還是沒有直接回答"},{"start":5905.06,"end":5907.06,"text":"我剛剛的問題是說"},{"start":5907.06,"end":5910.06,"text":"這個馬鈴薯最近這一批才被查出來"},{"start":5910.06,"end":5911.06,"text":"他沒有發芽"},{"start":5911.06,"end":5913.06,"text":"但是龍蝰蟹已經超標"},{"start":5913.06,"end":5915.06,"text":"這個是特廠商進口對不對"},{"start":5915.06,"end":5918.06,"text":"那你們為什麼只提高這個廠商的"},{"start":5918.06,"end":5922.06,"text":"就是說這會不會是一個普遍的現象"},{"start":5922.06,"end":5925.06,"text":"就是說這一種尚未發芽"},{"start":5925.06,"end":5927.06,"text":"但是他其實已經超標"},{"start":5927.06,"end":5929.06,"text":"針對這樣的情形"},{"start":5929.06,"end":5933.06,"text":"你為什麼沒有立刻提高整個的抽驗標準"},{"start":5933.06,"end":5935.06,"text":"而是只著重在這一家廠商"},{"start":5935.06,"end":5937.06,"text":"你就是你怎麼樣去確保"},{"start":5937.06,"end":5939.06,"text":"就是別家廠商進的"},{"start":5939.06,"end":5942.06,"text":"目前台灣只有這一家廠商在進口馬鈴薯嗎"},{"start":5942.06,"end":5943.06,"text":"應該不是吧"},{"start":5943.06,"end":5944.06,"text":"對啊"},{"start":5944.06,"end":5945.06,"text":"那我的意思是說"},{"start":5945.06,"end":5947.06,"text":"為什麼你只提高這一家的抽驗標準"},{"start":5947.06,"end":5949.06,"text":"而不是在這一段期間"},{"start":5949.06,"end":5951.06,"text":"你維持一段時間的專案"},{"start":5951.06,"end":5953.06,"text":"就是說同時期進口的這些馬鈴薯"},{"start":5953.06,"end":5955.06,"text":"你也提高他的抽驗比例"},{"start":5955.06,"end":5957.06,"text":"你剛剛講的那個重點"},{"start":5957.06,"end":5959.06,"text":"其實只要發現一個你會從20到50%"},{"start":5959.06,"end":5961.06,"text":"但是我們這次看到"},{"start":5961.06,"end":5964.06,"text":"是你只局限在這一家廠商本身"},{"start":5965.91,"end":5967.91,"text":"但是我擔心的是"},{"start":5967.91,"end":5970.91,"text":"今天馬鈴薯是大宗進口的物品"},{"start":5970.91,"end":5973.91,"text":"如果同時還有其他的進口管道"},{"start":5973.91,"end":5975.91,"text":"也同時進來"},{"start":5975.91,"end":5977.91,"text":"你今天只提高升高這一家"},{"start":5977.91,"end":5980.91,"text":"你沒有同步全部提高抽驗比例"},{"start":5980.91,"end":5983.91,"text":"你怎麼知道那個漏網之魚在哪裡"},{"start":5984.82,"end":5986.82,"text":"各位報告委員這邊"},{"start":5986.82,"end":5989.82,"text":"其實我們是全面提升為20到50%的加強抽批"},{"start":5989.82,"end":5990.82,"text":"有嗎"},{"start":5990.82,"end":5991.82,"text":"對"},{"start":5991.82,"end":5993.82,"text":"那你們對外新聞稿怎麼說只針對華遠"},{"start":5993.82,"end":5995.82,"text":"我們對於我們常態是這樣子的"},{"start":5995.82,"end":5997.82,"text":"可是因為大家特別的關注的部分"},{"start":5997.82,"end":5999.82,"text":"我們針對馬鈴薯的部分是"},{"start":5999.82,"end":6002.82,"text":"直接提升到全面20到50%的加強抽批"},{"start":6002.82,"end":6004.82,"text":"在第一部分跟委員做說明"},{"start":6004.82,"end":6006.82,"text":"第二部分跟委員報告"},{"start":6006.82,"end":6008.82,"text":"等一下要確定喔"},{"start":6008.82,"end":6010.82,"text":"我們在10月8號的時候開始就進行了"},{"start":6010.82,"end":6012.82,"text":"你們現在已經提高了是不是"},{"start":6012.82,"end":6014.82,"text":"當下你們第一時間沒有"},{"start":6014.82,"end":6016.82,"text":"我看到的訊息是你們只針對華遠"},{"start":6016.82,"end":6017.82,"text":"並沒有全面"},{"start":6017.82,"end":6019.82,"text":"第一個時間是這樣子"},{"start":6019.82,"end":6021.82,"text":"那我們對於整體"},{"start":6021.82,"end":6023.82,"text":"我們對於國人特別關注的這個議題"},{"start":6023.82,"end":6025.82,"text":"你現在已經有提高到20到50%了"},{"start":6025.82,"end":6026.82,"text":"10月8號的時候也回應"},{"start":6026.82,"end":6028.82,"text":"10月8號才做"},{"start":6028.82,"end":6030.82,"text":"那為什麼有那個時間差"},{"start":6030.82,"end":6031.82,"text":"不是第一時間"},{"start":6031.82,"end":6033.82,"text":"這不是你們的SOP嗎"},{"start":6033.82,"end":6034.82,"text":"我的意思就是說"},{"start":6034.82,"end":6037.82,"text":"你應該要有一個很標準化的SOP"},{"start":6037.82,"end":6039.82,"text":"你應該當下就立刻提升"},{"start":6039.82,"end":6040.82,"text":"是什麼因素"},{"start":6041.08,"end":6042.08,"text":"導致這個時間差"},{"start":6045.91,"end":6047.91,"text":"就是針對這一家"},{"start":6048.81,"end":6050.81,"text":"一般的其他抽檢維持"},{"start":6050.81,"end":6054.81,"text":"這是過去所有的邊境查驗的基準是這樣子"},{"start":6054.81,"end":6056.81,"text":"可是因為國人特別特別在意"},{"start":6056.81,"end":6058.81,"text":"現在馬來西亞署相關議題"},{"start":6058.81,"end":6060.81,"text":"因此我們回應這部分"},{"start":6060.81,"end":6064.81,"text":"因為很多的管理是回應我們民眾的關心"},{"start":6064.81,"end":6065.81,"text":"以及擔心的部分"},{"start":6065.81,"end":6068.81,"text":"所以我們才會直接再做加強抽批"},{"start":6068.81,"end":6069.81,"text":"在10月8號來進行"},{"start":6069.81,"end":6071.81,"text":"這跟委員說說明"},{"start":6071.81,"end":6073.81,"text":"另外針對剛才講的輪迴檢的"},{"start":6073.81,"end":6076.81,"text":"為什麼是沒有有驗到"},{"start":6076.81,"end":6078.81,"text":"我們整個評估起來沒有做檢討"},{"start":6078.81,"end":6081.81,"text":"它常常是是例外不是常態"},{"start":6081.81,"end":6083.81,"text":"我們看起來是例外不是常態"},{"start":6083.81,"end":6085.81,"text":"那很多原因會造成"},{"start":6085.81,"end":6087.81,"text":"譬如說船艙裡面溫度等等的影響"},{"start":6087.81,"end":6090.81,"text":"一般來講是發芽變綠的過程中"},{"start":6090.81,"end":6091.81,"text":"葉綠樹出來"},{"start":6091.81,"end":6093.81,"text":"輪迴檢開始出來"},{"start":6093.81,"end":6096.81,"text":"這樣子的是比較常態的情形"},{"start":6096.81,"end":6098.81,"text":"所以因此這種例外的狀況之下"},{"start":6098.81,"end":6100.81,"text":"我們也就在這種情形"},{"start":6100.81,"end":6104.81,"text":"針對某些特定的確是品種區域來的"},{"start":6104.81,"end":6107.81,"text":"所以為什麼會是回到這一個產品"},{"start":6107.81,"end":6109.81,"text":"這個來源地的"},{"start":6109.81,"end":6113.81,"text":"是因為它跟品種溫度區域栽培的條件"},{"start":6113.81,"end":6114.81,"text":"跟運送的條件"},{"start":6114.81,"end":6117.81,"text":"會是比較是讓它在沒有發芽"},{"start":6117.81,"end":6120.81,"text":"這種特殊的狀況下竟然高起來的"},{"start":6120.81,"end":6122.81,"text":"那我們過去從來沒有抽驗"},{"start":6122.81,"end":6125.81,"text":"沒有發芽的狀況下驗出來"},{"start":6125.81,"end":6126.81,"text":"就是超標的狀況"},{"start":6126.81,"end":6128.81,"text":"好 我很快回應兩點"},{"start":6128.81,"end":6130.81,"text":"第一個就是我覺得還沒有發芽"},{"start":6130.81,"end":6131.81,"text":"就驗出輪迴檢"},{"start":6131.81,"end":6133.81,"text":"我希望你們有一個專案去理解清楚"},{"start":6133.81,"end":6134.81,"text":"會不會是"},{"start":6136.17,"end":6140.17,"text":"就是來源國的國家他們意志發芽劑的用藥"},{"start":6140.17,"end":6141.17,"text":"其實已經改變"},{"start":6141.17,"end":6143.17,"text":"就是說為了避免它發芽"},{"start":6143.17,"end":6145.17,"text":"用藥量高"},{"start":6145.17,"end":6147.17,"text":"但是這是我自己的假設"},{"start":6147.17,"end":6148.17,"text":"用藥量高"},{"start":6148.17,"end":6150.17,"text":"所以導致它其實沒冒芽"},{"start":6150.17,"end":6152.17,"text":"但是其實輪迴檢"},{"start":6152.17,"end":6154.17,"text":"它其實整個發酵之後"},{"start":6154.17,"end":6156.17,"text":"還是已經變成是這樣子了"},{"start":6156.17,"end":6160.17,"text":"所以我覺得一個個案你們應該要深入探究"},{"start":6160.17,"end":6162.17,"text":"真正的原因是什麼"},{"start":6162.17,"end":6164.17,"text":"有沒有來自用藥的改變"},{"start":6164.17,"end":6166.17,"text":"除了那些你剛剛講環境因素"},{"start":6166.17,"end":6167.17,"text":"如果有用藥的改變"},{"start":6167.17,"end":6168.17,"text":"那你們要很敏感"},{"start":6168.17,"end":6170.17,"text":"那就不會是單一個案"},{"start":6170.17,"end":6173.17,"text":"第二個就是我希望你們建立一個是完整SOP"},{"start":6173.17,"end":6174.17,"text":"你剛剛提到"},{"start":6174.17,"end":6176.17,"text":"像馬英俗這種大宗物資"},{"start":6176.17,"end":6178.17,"text":"你不可能是局限在單一廠商"},{"start":6178.17,"end":6179.17,"text":"像是你比較改進來"},{"start":6179.17,"end":6180.17,"text":"我之前已經講過了"},{"start":6180.17,"end":6183.17,"text":"大宗物資源頭的東西"},{"start":6183.17,"end":6185.17,"text":"它是大量會廣布出去"},{"start":6185.17,"end":6186.17,"text":"而且使用量比較高"},{"start":6186.17,"end":6189.17,"text":"你不可能再是像你以前那種管制標準"},{"start":6189.17,"end":6191.17,"text":"我只針對單一廠商去提高它的抽驗標準"},{"start":6191.17,"end":6194.17,"text":"不行你之前說單一廠商已經得到教訓"},{"start":6194.17,"end":6196.17,"text":"你就針對單一廠商是遏止不了"},{"start":6196.17,"end":6197.17,"text":"因為它整個的來源"},{"start":6197.17,"end":6198.17,"text":"它整個的樣態"},{"start":6198.17,"end":6200.17,"text":"它其實就是這樣子"},{"start":6200.17,"end":6202.17,"text":"你應該是全面性的提高才對"},{"start":6202.17,"end":6204.17,"text":"所以你們的SOP"},{"start":6204.17,"end":6205.17,"text":"因為剛好講到30條"},{"start":6205.17,"end":6207.17,"text":"我覺得你們應該全面檢討"},{"start":6207.17,"end":6210.17,"text":"大宗物資不可能是針對單一廠商去提高抽驗"},{"start":6211.84,"end":6212.84,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":6212.84,"end":6215.84,"text":"對不起我先稍微暫停一下"},{"start":6215.84,"end":6217.84,"text":"就是大家剛剛討論的很熱烈"},{"start":6217.84,"end":6219.84,"text":"如果我們去看"},{"start":6221.34,"end":6223.34,"text":"要相對的條文"},{"start":6223.34,"end":6227.34,"text":"有看到增加第四項的話"},{"start":6227.34,"end":6229.34,"text":"事實上就是會把產品"},{"start":6230.4,"end":6234.4,"text":"來源國還有業者都會是我們將來要處理的對象"},{"start":6234.4,"end":6237.4,"text":"所以這部分我們等一下還可以再討論"},{"start":6237.4,"end":6240.4,"text":"我們先請邱惠如委員"},{"start":6240.4,"end":6242.4,"text":"然後再來是盧仙逸委員發言"},{"start":6242.4,"end":6244.4,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":6244.4,"end":6246.4,"text":"關於這個30條第四項"},{"start":6246.4,"end":6249.4,"text":"我想是一個邊境管制的相關的條文"},{"start":6249.4,"end":6251.4,"text":"那我們對於邊境管制"},{"start":6251.4,"end":6253.4,"text":"我們有一定的堅持"},{"start":6253.4,"end":6255.4,"text":"因為如果沒有做好邊境管制"},{"start":6255.4,"end":6256.4,"text":"有一律的產品進來台灣"},{"start":6256.4,"end":6258.4,"text":"然後擴散出去"},{"start":6258.4,"end":6261.4,"text":"其實會造成食安一個很大的疑慮跟隱憂"},{"start":6261.4,"end":6263.4,"text":"那當然我們加強邊境管制"},{"start":6263.4,"end":6265.4,"text":"不是那個無限上綱"},{"start":6265.4,"end":6267.4,"text":"在這邊就是限縮三種食物"},{"start":6267.4,"end":6269.4,"text":"第一個就是基改食物"},{"start":6269.4,"end":6272.4,"text":"第二個就是農業部指定的大宗農產品"},{"start":6272.4,"end":6274.4,"text":"第三個就是關鍵的原物料"},{"start":6274.4,"end":6276.4,"text":"那這些這三個食物"},{"start":6276.4,"end":6279.4,"text":"它有一個特色就是高風險性"},{"start":6279.4,"end":6281.4,"text":"然後再來就是這個大量"},{"start":6281.4,"end":6285.4,"text":"然後再來就是有高度的這個加工使用率"},{"start":6286.4,"end":6287.4,"text":"那所以呢"},{"start":6287.4,"end":6290.4,"text":"人民在接觸這些食物的機率是非常高的"},{"start":6290.4,"end":6293.4,"text":"那如何加強這些食物的控管"},{"start":6293.4,"end":6295.4,"text":"那當然就是除了源頭管理"},{"start":6295.4,"end":6297.4,"text":"那當然就是邊境的管制"},{"start":6297.4,"end":6298.4,"text":"所以邊境的管制"},{"start":6298.4,"end":6300.4,"text":"當然我們這邊就是加強到"},{"start":6300.4,"end":6303.4,"text":"足劈跟足船"},{"start":6303.4,"end":6309.4,"text":"那排除這個調降這個檢驗頻率的一個相關規定"},{"start":6309.4,"end":6311.4,"text":"那當然我們知道這個食藥署"},{"start":6311.4,"end":6313.4,"text":"在做這個邊境管制的時候"},{"start":6313.4,"end":6315.4,"text":"其實是採三接嘛"},{"start":6315.4,"end":6316.4,"text":"首先原本是一般"},{"start":6316.4,"end":6319.4,"text":"那如果真的有發生有疑慮的話"},{"start":6319.4,"end":6321.4,"text":"那當然就會加強檢驗"},{"start":6321.4,"end":6323.4,"text":"那最後如果問題沒有"},{"start":6323.4,"end":6325.4,"text":"就是狀況再更嚴重"},{"start":6325.4,"end":6327.4,"text":"有可能就是來到一個足劈或足船的標準"},{"start":6327.4,"end":6329.4,"text":"這些我們都了解"},{"start":6329.4,"end":6332.4,"text":"但是其實如果是用一般的檢驗"},{"start":6332.4,"end":6333.4,"text":"也許就會有落網之魚"},{"start":6333.4,"end":6334.4,"text":"就像玉敏剛說的"},{"start":6334.4,"end":6336.4,"text":"就是會有一些馬鈴薯"},{"start":6336.4,"end":6339.4,"text":"你可能只針對某一個特定廠商"},{"start":6339.4,"end":6342.4,"text":"但是它的來源有可能是相同的"},{"start":6342.4,"end":6344.4,"text":"那如果你只針對一個廠商"},{"start":6344.4,"end":6346.4,"text":"你沒有針對其他的廠商"},{"start":6346.4,"end":6348.4,"text":"你沒有做足劈跟足船"},{"start":6348.4,"end":6349.4,"text":"你怎麼知道其他的廠商"},{"start":6349.4,"end":6351.4,"text":"同時存在這個問題"},{"start":6351.4,"end":6356.4,"text":"所以我們覺得這個加強抽驗的規範"},{"start":6356.4,"end":6357.4,"text":"是有其必要的"},{"start":6357.4,"end":6360.4,"text":"那更何況我記得行政院長是不是有說過"},{"start":6360.4,"end":6362.4,"text":"對於馬鈴薯要採足科"},{"start":6362.4,"end":6365.4,"text":"那我們這裡已經沒有要求足科足向"},{"start":6365.4,"end":6367.4,"text":"我們只要求足劈跟足船"},{"start":6367.4,"end":6369.4,"text":"所以這個以這個標準來說"},{"start":6369.4,"end":6370.4,"text":"相較於行政院長"},{"start":6370.4,"end":6372.4,"text":"應該是也沒那麼嚴格"},{"start":6372.4,"end":6374.4,"text":"也沒那麼嚴格"},{"start":6374.4,"end":6376.4,"text":"所以請食安署這邊來予以考量"},{"start":6376.4,"end":6378.4,"text":"那最後我想問一個問題"},{"start":6378.4,"end":6380.4,"text":"因為剛剛玉敏跟金慧這邊"},{"start":6380.4,"end":6382.4,"text":"都有提到那個馬鈴薯的問題"},{"start":6382.4,"end":6384.4,"text":"食藥署署長這邊也提到說"},{"start":6384.4,"end":6386.4,"text":"就是以這個單一事件來說"},{"start":6386.4,"end":6390.4,"text":"這個抽驗比率有提升到20%到50%"},{"start":6390.4,"end":6392.4,"text":"那請問一下這個20%"},{"start":6392.4,"end":6393.4,"text":"你們調升了嗎"},{"start":6393.4,"end":6396.4,"text":"那這個調升的持續長度會持續到多久"},{"start":6397.5,"end":6398.5,"text":"可以請教一下嗎"},{"start":6398.5,"end":6401.5,"text":"那什麼時候又會再回歸原狀"},{"start":6401.5,"end":6402.5,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6403.88,"end":6405.88,"text":"先請盧縣議員發言"},{"start":6433.88,"end":6439.88,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6440.85,"end":6443.85,"text":"那麼這邊來做回應"},{"start":6447.1,"end":6449.1,"text":"好我現在先回應一下"},{"start":6449.1,"end":6451.1,"text":"邱委員這邊的說明"},{"start":6451.1,"end":6453.1,"text":"那剛才在邱委員說明"},{"start":6453.1,"end":6456.1,"text":"特別提到說針對輸入的精英改造食品"},{"start":6456.1,"end":6458.1,"text":"農產品及農業部指定"},{"start":6458.1,"end":6461.1,"text":"這是大宗產品關鍵食品原料"},{"start":6461.1,"end":6463.1,"text":"應於邊境足劈足船查驗"},{"start":6463.1,"end":6465.1,"text":"那我們這邊其實做了"},{"start":6465.1,"end":6467.1,"text":"先前的說明也特別提到"},{"start":6467.1,"end":6470.1,"text":"那我們也因風險為基礎"},{"start":6470.1,"end":6472.1,"text":"所以因此在第四項裡面"},{"start":6472.1,"end":6474.1,"text":"特別增加了中央主管機關"},{"start":6474.1,"end":6480.1,"text":"第一來源國產品業者國際預警及供應鏈風險"},{"start":6480.1,"end":6482.1,"text":"調整查驗頻率及措施"},{"start":6482.1,"end":6485.1,"text":"這邊其實是整體國人的食安"},{"start":6485.1,"end":6489.1,"text":"我們一樣的用最高的原則來把關"},{"start":6489.1,"end":6492.1,"text":"那一定是以食安的風險為基礎的"},{"start":6492.1,"end":6494.1,"text":"來做進一步的說明"},{"start":6494.1,"end":6497.1,"text":"這邊跟委員做進一步的提出"},{"start":6497.1,"end":6500.1,"text":"那至於剛才特別提到的藝芽季的部分"},{"start":6500.1,"end":6501.1,"text":"我們對藝芽季的部分"},{"start":6501.1,"end":6504.1,"text":"其實這個科普分的在農藥"},{"start":6504.1,"end":6507.1,"text":"食物中農藥檢驗方法"},{"start":6507.1,"end":6509.1,"text":"多重殘留分析方法裡面"},{"start":6509.1,"end":6510.1,"text":"其實我們有訂定代謝物"},{"start":6510.1,"end":6512.1,"text":"它的代謝物三氯本胺"},{"start":6512.1,"end":6514.1,"text":"去殘留的標準"},{"start":6514.1,"end":6517.1,"text":"我們本署目前上面有特別公告"},{"start":6517.1,"end":6519.1,"text":"那對於農藥殘留的容許標準"},{"start":6519.1,"end":6521.1,"text":"馬鈴薯的部分我們是訂在30ppm"},{"start":6521.1,"end":6523.1,"text":"所以我們歷年來"},{"start":6523.1,"end":6527.1,"text":"從1113年1月1日到115年8月31日"},{"start":6527.1,"end":6531.1,"text":"我們對於抱怨之後查核的批數"},{"start":6531.1,"end":6533.1,"text":"有達到有64p"},{"start":6533.1,"end":6535.1,"text":"都是在合格的範圍"},{"start":6535.1,"end":6537.1,"text":"以上做進一步的說明"},{"start":6537.1,"end":6540.1,"text":"那對於剛才提到的"},{"start":6540.1,"end":6542.1,"text":"我們現在是加強的抽p"},{"start":6542.1,"end":6546.1,"text":"加強抽p其實我們對於持續現在"},{"start":6546.1,"end":6550.1,"text":"邊界我們抽驗的標準是不變"},{"start":6550.1,"end":6551.1,"text":"那抽驗的批數增加"},{"start":6551.1,"end":6554.1,"text":"按照抽驗批數的結果"},{"start":6554.1,"end":6555.1,"text":"我們會呈現出來"},{"start":6555.1,"end":6557.1,"text":"讓國中能夠了解"},{"start":6557.1,"end":6560.1,"text":"作為我們後續去增加跟減少"},{"start":6560.1,"end":6562.1,"text":"我們需要抽p的比例"},{"start":6562.1,"end":6564.1,"text":"這點也說進一步說明"},{"start":6564.1,"end":6566.1,"text":"就是完全是按照我們現在"},{"start":6566.1,"end":6568.1,"text":"所謂的邊境查驗的辦法裡面"},{"start":6568.1,"end":6570.1,"text":"對抽驗的頻率以風險為基準"},{"start":6570.1,"end":6572.1,"text":"以及抽驗出來的結果"},{"start":6572.1,"end":6574.1,"text":"作為進一步調整的方式"},{"start":6574.1,"end":6575.1,"text":"以上說明"},{"start":6577.69,"end":6578.69,"text":"那過去多久"},{"start":6578.69,"end":6581.69,"text":"我們現在就是持續按照我們現在"},{"start":6581.69,"end":6583.69,"text":"我們抽p出來的結果"},{"start":6583.69,"end":6584.69,"text":"作為後續的調整的基礎"},{"start":6584.69,"end":6586.69,"text":"這部分其實是"},{"start":6586.69,"end":6589.69,"text":"如果在周邊有抽p20到50%"},{"start":6589.69,"end":6590.69,"text":"還是有抽到"},{"start":6590.69,"end":6592.69,"text":"那就會再往上提"},{"start":6592.69,"end":6594.69,"text":"甚至調到主p去查驗"},{"start":6594.69,"end":6597.69,"text":"如果持續查驗是都沒有"},{"start":6597.69,"end":6599.69,"text":"那它就會降回到一般抽p"},{"start":6599.69,"end":6601.69,"text":"那這邊也是在我們剛才提到的"},{"start":6601.69,"end":6603.69,"text":"以一致的標準"},{"start":6603.69,"end":6605.69,"text":"對於以風險為基礎的來做說明"},{"start":6605.69,"end":6607.69,"text":"那5p3倍樣的一個概念"},{"start":6607.69,"end":6608.69,"text":"也會是我們導入"},{"start":6608.69,"end":6610.69,"text":"我們一直以來做執行的方式"},{"start":6610.69,"end":6611.69,"text":"以上說明"},{"start":6611.69,"end":6613.69,"text":"所以聽起來是有一定的方法學"},{"start":6613.69,"end":6615.69,"text":"可以讓民眾安心"},{"start":6615.69,"end":6618.69,"text":"不管前面是有什麼樣的異常"},{"start":6618.69,"end":6621.69,"text":"可是經過好的方法處理以後"},{"start":6621.69,"end":6623.69,"text":"民眾知道這一部分"},{"start":6623.69,"end":6625.69,"text":"已經達到安全的標準"},{"start":6625.69,"end":6626.69,"text":"可是剛剛"},{"start":6626.69,"end":6628.69,"text":"盧委員的這個問題"},{"start":6628.69,"end":6630.69,"text":"還沒有做說明"},{"start":6630.69,"end":6631.69,"text":"我先回覆一下"},{"start":6631.69,"end":6632.69,"text":"剛剛玉明委員講到"},{"start":6632.69,"end":6634.69,"text":"就是為什麼他沒有發芽"},{"start":6634.69,"end":6635.69,"text":"但是還有龍蝴蟹"},{"start":6635.69,"end":6636.69,"text":"委員提到這題"},{"start":6636.69,"end":6638.69,"text":"我是不是之後我們請食藥署"},{"start":6638.69,"end":6640.69,"text":"跟農業部我們一起請專家開個會議"},{"start":6640.69,"end":6641.69,"text":"好不好"},{"start":6641.69,"end":6643.69,"text":"就我們請專家開個會議"},{"start":6643.69,"end":6645.69,"text":"大家要關注"},{"start":6645.69,"end":6647.69,"text":"所以說歐盟他們對於"},{"start":6647.69,"end":6649.69,"text":"這個消費者的ERG"},{"start":6649.69,"end":6651.69,"text":"對於這個消費者"},{"start":6651.69,"end":6654.69,"text":"那個暴露還有代謝物風險的疑慮"},{"start":6654.69,"end":6655.69,"text":"他們2019年"},{"start":6655.69,"end":6658.69,"text":"他停止核准克普分"},{"start":6658.69,"end":6661.69,"text":"克普分是現在美國使用的"},{"start":6661.69,"end":6663.69,"text":"歐盟停止"},{"start":6663.69,"end":6665.69,"text":"他們馬鈴薯的"},{"start":6665.69,"end":6668.69,"text":"暫定的殘留限量"},{"start":6669.94,"end":6672.94,"text":"那個署長你知道他們是多少"},{"start":6676.86,"end":6678.86,"text":"我們的是30ppm"},{"start":6679.54,"end":6680.54,"text":"歐盟是多少"},{"start":6682.73,"end":6683.73,"text":"沒有人知道吧"},{"start":6684.64,"end":6688.64,"text":"這個部分我待會再跟您進一步確認一下"},{"start":6688.64,"end":6691.64,"text":"我這邊查到的資料是0.2ppm"},{"start":6691.64,"end":6693.64,"text":"所以歐盟的食品安全標準"},{"start":6693.64,"end":6694.64,"text":"坦白講真的是"},{"start":6694.64,"end":6697.64,"text":"他們真的是指標"},{"start":6697.64,"end":6701.64,"text":"他們就是都會高於這個國際食品法典"},{"start":6701.64,"end":6703.64,"text":"那所以我特別提醒就是"},{"start":6703.64,"end":6705.64,"text":"我們對於國人的食安"},{"start":6705.64,"end":6707.64,"text":"我們也可以追求更好的"},{"start":6707.64,"end":6710.64,"text":"所以有關剛剛謝謝署長的回應"},{"start":6710.64,"end":6711.64,"text":"ERG的這個使用"},{"start":6711.64,"end":6714.64,"text":"我覺得真的也要去關注到"},{"start":6714.64,"end":6717.64,"text":"因為業者真的是會想盡辦法"},{"start":6717.64,"end":6720.64,"text":"為了不要發芽產生龍虧血"},{"start":6720.64,"end":6722.64,"text":"但是使用過多的ERG"},{"start":6722.64,"end":6723.64,"text":"那一樣對我們的人體"},{"start":6723.64,"end":6726.64,"text":"其實還是會有些傷害"},{"start":6726.64,"end":6729.64,"text":"所以這一部分你們有一個更嚴謹的研究"},{"start":6729.64,"end":6730.64,"text":"我覺得是好的"},{"start":6730.64,"end":6732.64,"text":"也有助於我們在食品的把關"},{"start":6732.64,"end":6735.64,"text":"就是我們更知道怎麼拿捏群組"},{"start":6735.64,"end":6737.64,"text":"謝謝委員這邊特別提醒"},{"start":6737.64,"end":6740.64,"text":"我們農藥的殘留保在克普分的部分"},{"start":6740.64,"end":6743.64,"text":"那因為國內的一些農產品"},{"start":6743.64,"end":6745.64,"text":"都是仰賴是進口的"},{"start":6745.64,"end":6748.64,"text":"跟整個歐盟在陸地上面的一些"},{"start":6748.64,"end":6751.64,"text":"以及內部的生產的機制不同"},{"start":6751.64,"end":6753.64,"text":"所以對於我們的殘留標準"},{"start":6753.64,"end":6755.64,"text":"也是經過整個風險的評估"},{"start":6755.64,"end":6757.64,"text":"我們事實上有仔細的算過"},{"start":6757.64,"end":6758.64,"text":"它可能的風險的評估"},{"start":6758.64,"end":6759.64,"text":"以上說明"},{"start":6761.28,"end":6763.28,"text":"那依照是不是委員"},{"start":6763.28,"end":6764.28,"text":"我們就跟農業部"},{"start":6764.28,"end":6765.28,"text":"食藥署跟農業部"},{"start":6765.28,"end":6767.28,"text":"我們會針對剛剛您提到的"},{"start":6767.28,"end":6770.28,"text":"就是馬林署相關的ERG的部分"},{"start":6770.28,"end":6772.28,"text":"那我們請專家來做一個會議"},{"start":6772.28,"end":6773.28,"text":"好不好"},{"start":6773.28,"end":6776.28,"text":"那再針對剛剛盧縣議員提到的這個部分"},{"start":6776.28,"end":6778.28,"text":"我補充資訊給盧委員就是說"},{"start":6778.28,"end":6780.28,"text":"當然我們也知道在原住民族地區"},{"start":6780.28,"end":6782.28,"text":"可能有一些消費習慣的不同"},{"start":6782.28,"end":6786.28,"text":"或者是消費市場的一些狀況"},{"start":6786.28,"end":6789.28,"text":"那剛剛其實在署長這邊也在說"},{"start":6789.28,"end":6792.28,"text":"在說立法相關法律說明的部分也提到"},{"start":6792.28,"end":6794.28,"text":"我們在地方主管機關"},{"start":6794.28,"end":6797.28,"text":"其實它可以針對它的地區特性"},{"start":6797.28,"end":6800.28,"text":"去進行相關的食品安全的檢查跟抽驗"},{"start":6800.28,"end":6803.28,"text":"那我們在食安基金這邊也都有"},{"start":6803.28,"end":6806.28,"text":"讓地方政府來跟我們申請專案"},{"start":6806.28,"end":6808.28,"text":"經費補助去進行一些"},{"start":6808.28,"end":6810.28,"text":"特定的食品安全計畫"},{"start":6810.28,"end":6813.28,"text":"那舉例來說就有縣市會來針對"},{"start":6813.28,"end":6817.28,"text":"比方它的區域裡面的客家民族的食品"},{"start":6817.28,"end":6820.28,"text":"它針對客家米食去做一些調查"},{"start":6820.28,"end":6823.28,"text":"那這個部分食安基金只要食安基金的相關委員同意"},{"start":6823.28,"end":6824.28,"text":"就可以做"},{"start":6824.28,"end":6826.28,"text":"那所以像剛剛委員提到的"},{"start":6826.28,"end":6828.28,"text":"第一個部分就是再跟委員補充就是說"},{"start":6828.28,"end":6830.28,"text":"地方的這樣子的消費市場"},{"start":6830.28,"end":6832.28,"text":"其實地方主管機關就有"},{"start":6832.28,"end":6835.28,"text":"它本身就有權限可以去針對地方上"},{"start":6835.28,"end":6837.28,"text":"尤其是原住民族地區"},{"start":6837.28,"end":6840.28,"text":"消費市場的食品安全來做相關的查核"},{"start":6840.28,"end":6843.28,"text":"第二個部分就是我們也歡迎地方政府"},{"start":6843.28,"end":6845.28,"text":"可以來跟食安基金這邊"},{"start":6845.28,"end":6847.28,"text":"來跟地方的需求來申請"},{"start":6847.28,"end":6849.28,"text":"那只要我們食安基金委員同意的話"},{"start":6849.28,"end":6851.28,"text":"我們大概都會把這樣的專案給地方做"},{"start":6851.04,"end":6853.04,"text":"好謝謝市長的補充說明"},{"start":6853.04,"end":6857.04,"text":"我這邊有一個問題要請教一下"},{"start":6857.04,"end":6860.04,"text":"因為如果依照黨團"},{"start":6860.04,"end":6863.04,"text":"很多黨團還有包括委員都很希望針對"},{"start":6863.04,"end":6867.04,"text":"輸入基因改造或經農業部指定的"},{"start":6867.04,"end":6871.04,"text":"大宗農產品能夠做逐批或者是"},{"start":6871.04,"end":6873.04,"text":"逐船的查驗"},{"start":6873.04,"end":6876.04,"text":"那如果依照這樣把它落入到母法的話"},{"start":6876.04,"end":6878.04,"text":"那未來這個量能"},{"start":6878.04,"end":6881.04,"text":"目前的人力在承擔上"},{"start":6881.04,"end":6884.04,"text":"需不需要再做哪一些的加強"},{"start":6884.04,"end":6886.04,"text":"或者是處理上"},{"start":6886.04,"end":6888.04,"text":"還有沒有什麼好的方式來因應"},{"start":6888.04,"end":6891.04,"text":"如果真的是逐批或逐船的查驗之下"},{"start":6891.04,"end":6893.04,"text":"所會面臨的問題"},{"start":6893.04,"end":6895.04,"text":"因為這會關係到我們這個"},{"start":6895.04,"end":6898.04,"text":"登記的"},{"start":6898.43,"end":6900.43,"text":"管控非常的重要"},{"start":6900.43,"end":6902.43,"text":"可是執行上會碰到什麼樣的問題"},{"start":6902.43,"end":6904.43,"text":"這邊也要麻煩"},{"start":6904.43,"end":6908.43,"text":"這個食藥署或者是衛福部這邊來進一步說明"},{"start":6909.26,"end":6911.26,"text":"這邊進一步的說明"},{"start":6911.26,"end":6913.26,"text":"就是基因改造食品原料"},{"start":6913.26,"end":6915.26,"text":"目前無法與邊境檢驗的原因"},{"start":6915.26,"end":6918.26,"text":"跟要檢驗的時候可能需要的一些配套"},{"start":6918.26,"end":6921.26,"text":"沒有辦法檢驗是因為整個代氏檢驗機構"},{"start":6921.26,"end":6923.26,"text":"它要用一些檢驗的方法"},{"start":6923.26,"end":6925.26,"text":"叫Real-time PCR去測"},{"start":6925.26,"end":6927.26,"text":"但本署公開檢驗方法"},{"start":6927.26,"end":6929.26,"text":"沒有辦法完整涵蓋所有的"},{"start":6929.86,"end":6931.86,"text":"基因改造的是品項"},{"start":6931.86,"end":6933.86,"text":"而且每一個品項"},{"start":6933.86,"end":6935.86,"text":"它基因改造位置是要特定的"},{"start":6935.86,"end":6937.86,"text":"所謂的影子"},{"start":6937.86,"end":6939.86,"text":"Primer去把它訂出來"},{"start":6939.86,"end":6941.86,"text":"所以這個一訂下去"},{"start":6941.86,"end":6943.86,"text":"時間成本是難以想像的"},{"start":6943.86,"end":6945.86,"text":"所以我們目前食藥署"},{"start":6945.86,"end":6947.86,"text":"官網公開基因改造檢驗方法"},{"start":6947.86,"end":6949.86,"text":"的時間就要花10到15天"},{"start":6949.86,"end":6951.86,"text":"並需要另外"},{"start":6951.86,"end":6953.86,"text":"高量的經費"},{"start":6953.86,"end":6955.86,"text":"另外對於目前的"},{"start":6955.86,"end":6957.86,"text":"代氏檢驗機構"},{"start":6957.86,"end":6959.86,"text":"因為檢驗方法能力跟經費"},{"start":6959.86,"end":6961.86,"text":"跟時程整個核判的需求"},{"start":6961.86,"end":6963.86,"text":"現階段未有委託代氏檢驗機構"},{"start":6963.86,"end":6965.86,"text":"與邊境基因改造的原因"},{"start":6965.86,"end":6967.86,"text":"所以如果我們要去"},{"start":6967.86,"end":6969.86,"text":"做的時候"},{"start":6969.86,"end":6971.86,"text":"整個署內"},{"start":6971.86,"end":6973.86,"text":"食藥署內對於查驗登記"},{"start":6973.86,"end":6975.86,"text":"食藥時要請廠商就提供"},{"start":6975.86,"end":6977.86,"text":"相入基"},{"start":6977.86,"end":6979.86,"text":"植物基因體積"},{"start":6979.86,"end":6981.86,"text":"轉植DNA的相關資訊"},{"start":6981.86,"end":6983.86,"text":"因為每一次進來的"},{"start":6983.86,"end":6985.86,"text":"這批次是哪一個進來的都不一樣"},{"start":6985.86,"end":6987.86,"text":"署內對基因改造實驗的檢驗方法"},{"start":6987.86,"end":6989.86,"text":"費用極高"},{"start":6989.86,"end":6991.86,"text":"我們要輔導民間機構"},{"start":6991.86,"end":6993.86,"text":"能夠完成這項使命"},{"start":6993.86,"end":6995.86,"text":"我們整個評估起來"},{"start":6995.86,"end":6997.86,"text":"我們對於他的審查"},{"start":6997.86,"end":6999.86,"text":"部分是屬於他進來的時候"},{"start":6999.86,"end":7001.86,"text":"對特定他的"},{"start":7001.86,"end":7003.86,"text":"改造的地方"},{"start":7003.86,"end":7005.86,"text":"有書面上面提供"},{"start":7005.86,"end":7007.86,"text":"讓我們確認我們會抽菸的部分"},{"start":7007.86,"end":7009.86,"text":"而不是說我們"},{"start":7009.86,"end":7011.86,"text":"逐批的部分再去做"},{"start":7011.86,"end":7013.86,"text":"在邊境做這件事情"},{"start":7014.53,"end":7016.53,"text":"再跟委員補充就是說"},{"start":7016.53,"end":7018.53,"text":"基因食品應我們的規定"},{"start":7018.53,"end":7020.53,"text":"所以他在邊境就要有相關"},{"start":7020.53,"end":7022.53,"text":"報關上面的這個"},{"start":7022.53,"end":7024.53,"text":"號列是不一樣的"},{"start":7024.53,"end":7026.53,"text":"所以在這邊他在邊境上面"},{"start":7026.53,"end":7028.53,"text":"在報關上面有這樣子的一個"},{"start":7028.53,"end":7030.53,"text":"處理"},{"start":7030.53,"end":7032.53,"text":"當然我們主要也在食藥署這邊是去確認他的相關"},{"start":7032.53,"end":7034.53,"text":"報關的文件"},{"start":7035.3,"end":7037.3,"text":"另外一個部分也是"},{"start":7037.3,"end":7039.3,"text":"剛剛其實委員提到"},{"start":7039.3,"end":7041.3,"text":"就是說對於委員有關切"},{"start":7041.3,"end":7043.3,"text":"不同的食品或不同的原料"},{"start":7043.3,"end":7045.3,"text":"他在邊境的檢查"},{"start":7045.3,"end":7047.3,"text":"所以這也是為什麼我們"},{"start":7047.3,"end":7049.3,"text":"參考委員這邊希望"},{"start":7049.3,"end":7051.3,"text":"能夠修正的一些條文之後"},{"start":7051.3,"end":7053.3,"text":"我們在第四項這邊以"},{"start":7053.3,"end":7055.3,"text":"中央主管機關因"},{"start":7055.3,"end":7057.3,"text":"來源國產品業者"},{"start":7057.3,"end":7059.3,"text":"國際預警及供應力風險"},{"start":7059.3,"end":7061.3,"text":"就是這幾個條文這幾個項目的"},{"start":7061.3,"end":7063.3,"text":"這個評估"},{"start":7063.3,"end":7065.3,"text":"調整查驗的頻率跟措施"},{"start":7065.3,"end":7067.3,"text":"那因為每個委員關注"},{"start":7067.3,"end":7069.3,"text":"或者是特定某些因為季節"},{"start":7069.3,"end":7071.3,"text":"或者是因為某些"},{"start":7071.3,"end":7073.3,"text":"這個食品風險等等他都會有"},{"start":7073.3,"end":7075.3,"text":"他都會有變動所以"},{"start":7075.3,"end":7077.3,"text":"也擔心就是說如果我們"},{"start":7077.3,"end":7079.3,"text":"在模法裡面寫定了針對"},{"start":7079.3,"end":7081.3,"text":"哪些他"},{"start":7081.3,"end":7083.3,"text":"就是說我們他某一些"},{"start":7083.3,"end":7085.3,"text":"在模法裡面寫定"},{"start":7085.3,"end":7087.3,"text":"足批或足傳而且不能"},{"start":7087.3,"end":7089.3,"text":"調降或者是調動的話"},{"start":7089.3,"end":7091.3,"text":"擔心就是說這樣的量能到時候會變成"},{"start":7091.3,"end":7093.3,"text":"影響到這個"},{"start":7093.7,"end":7095.7,"text":"特殊事件或突發事件的時候"},{"start":7095.7,"end":7097.7,"text":"這樣子的一個評次的量能"},{"start":7097.7,"end":7099.7,"text":"所以是不是讓我們有個空間"},{"start":7099.7,"end":7101.7,"text":"那我們也了解委員這邊的要求"},{"start":7101.7,"end":7103.7,"text":"所以讓我們有個空間在第四項以"},{"start":7103.7,"end":7105.7,"text":"中央主管機關因一來源國產品"},{"start":7105.7,"end":7107.7,"text":"業者國際預警跟供應鏈風險"},{"start":7107.7,"end":7109.7,"text":"來調整我們的查驗頻率跟措施"},{"start":7109.7,"end":7111.7,"text":"那查驗頻率跟措施"},{"start":7111.7,"end":7113.7,"text":"的部分在現有的"},{"start":7113.7,"end":7115.7,"text":"這個查驗頻率跟的頻率"},{"start":7115.7,"end":7117.7,"text":"這個相關的技術跟規定"},{"start":7117.7,"end":7119.7,"text":"我們本來就有那"},{"start":7119.7,"end":7121.7,"text":"委員這邊關切到說是不是有調升"},{"start":7121.7,"end":7123.7,"text":"這個部分我們會固定"},{"start":7123.7,"end":7125.7,"text":"請食藥署這邊必要時候來做說明"},{"start":7127.13,"end":7129.13,"text":"好我想這個"},{"start":7129.13,"end":7131.13,"text":"的內容需要再做一些溝通"},{"start":7131.13,"end":7133.13,"text":"那我們先休息十分鐘"},{"start":7741.97,"end":7743.97,"text":"好那我們就繼續審查第30條"},{"start":7743.97,"end":7745.97,"text":"相關的這個部分"},{"start":7745.97,"end":7747.97,"text":"那請各位委員對衛福部的說明"},{"start":7747.97,"end":7749.97,"text":"以及螢幕上的條文"},{"start":7749.97,"end":7751.97,"text":"是否還有其他意見"},{"start":7751.97,"end":7753.97,"text":"要進一步討論"},{"start":7756.8,"end":7758.8,"text":"那可以請大家也注意一下"},{"start":7758.8,"end":7760.8,"text":"目前在螢幕上的條文"},{"start":7760.8,"end":7762.8,"text":"這樣能不能夠符合我們所剛剛"},{"start":7762.8,"end":7764.8,"text":"針對邊境的"},{"start":7764.8,"end":7766.8,"text":"這個"},{"start":7767.91,"end":7769.91,"text":"管理的部分大家可以"},{"start":7769.91,"end":7771.91,"text":"依據現在的條文了解"},{"start":7771.91,"end":7773.91,"text":"衛福部在執行上"},{"start":7773.91,"end":7775.91,"text":"他可以"},{"start":7775.91,"end":7777.91,"text":"盡到最大邊境管制的這些"},{"start":7777.91,"end":7779.91,"text":"該有的措施"},{"start":7780.29,"end":7782.29,"text":"剛剛大家提到"},{"start":7782.29,"end":7784.29,"text":"就是說針對那個"},{"start":7784.29,"end":7786.29,"text":"大宗的物資"},{"start":7787.18,"end":7789.18,"text":"農產品"},{"start":7788.88,"end":7790.88,"text":"然後他的那個標準"},{"start":7790.88,"end":7792.88,"text":"因為現在"},{"start":7793.24,"end":7795.24,"text":"所以要屬於一個標準就是"},{"start":7795.24,"end":7797.24,"text":"他查到他是針對該廠商去提高抽菸比率"},{"start":7797.24,"end":7799.24,"text":"但是我們剛剛在講的是"},{"start":7799.24,"end":7801.24,"text":"如果像這一次"},{"start":7801.24,"end":7803.24,"text":"類似馬鈴薯大宗的"},{"start":7803.24,"end":7805.24,"text":"農產品或是大宗的"},{"start":7805.24,"end":7807.24,"text":"原物料他應該是"},{"start":7807.24,"end":7809.24,"text":"要另外一套標準那今天這樣子"},{"start":7809.24,"end":7811.24,"text":"寫的話並沒有"},{"start":7811.24,"end":7813.24,"text":"把我們的想法"},{"start":7813.24,"end":7815.24,"text":"寫進去那剛剛"},{"start":7815.24,"end":7817.24,"text":"民眾黨會務委員其實也有類似"},{"start":7817.24,"end":7819.24,"text":"的主張我認為在"},{"start":7819.24,"end":7821.24,"text":"文字上這次修法如果要有一個"},{"start":7821.24,"end":7823.24,"text":"應該要把剛剛我們最關切的那個"},{"start":7823.24,"end":7825.24,"text":"大宗原物料"},{"start":7826.77,"end":7830.77,"text":"大宗的農產品廣泛應用的這個農產品這個要寫進去"},{"start":7830.77,"end":7832.77,"text":"他的那個"},{"start":7832.77,"end":7834.77,"text":"頻率應該是一查到之後就要"},{"start":7834.77,"end":7836.77,"text":"提高這個查驗的"},{"start":7836.77,"end":7838.77,"text":"標準"},{"start":7837.84,"end":7839.84,"text":"委員這邊是不是就是說"},{"start":7839.84,"end":7841.84,"text":"因為我們在第四項裡面用"},{"start":7841.84,"end":7843.84,"text":"的是供應鏈風"},{"start":7843.84,"end":7845.84,"text":"我們講的就是應依這個供應鏈風險"},{"start":7845.84,"end":7847.84,"text":"所以剛剛提到不論是大宗"},{"start":7847.84,"end":7849.84,"text":"或者是他的這一個"},{"start":7849.84,"end":7851.84,"text":"農產品本身可能因為品質"},{"start":7851.84,"end":7853.84,"text":"或者是特定的這個"},{"start":7853.84,"end":7855.84,"text":"區域會比較有風險的"},{"start":7855.84,"end":7857.84,"text":"這個部分就在供應鏈風險這邊"},{"start":7857.84,"end":7859.84,"text":"把它納入嘛他就是所謂的"},{"start":7859.84,"end":7861.84,"text":"供應鏈風險那供應鏈風險這邊"},{"start":7861.84,"end":7863.84,"text":"針對剛剛委員所提到的我們在原來"},{"start":7863.84,"end":7865.84,"text":"的食品及相關產品輸入"},{"start":7865.84,"end":7867.84,"text":"查驗辦法這邊那是不是"},{"start":7867.84,"end":7869.84,"text":"讓我們對於這一個食品及相關"},{"start":7869.84,"end":7871.84,"text":"在我們如果說修法"},{"start":7871.84,"end":7873.84,"text":"之後以我們30條這邊"},{"start":7873.84,"end":7875.84,"text":"第四項我們文字上面"},{"start":7875.84,"end":7877.84,"text":"的這個國際預警及供應鏈風險"},{"start":7877.84,"end":7879.84,"text":"那我們就回到我們食品及相關"},{"start":7879.84,"end":7881.84,"text":"產品輸入查驗辦法裡面"},{"start":7881.84,"end":7883.84,"text":"去對於委員這邊所特別關切"},{"start":7883.84,"end":7885.84,"text":"到的大宗農產品或者是高度"},{"start":7885.84,"end":7887.84,"text":"風險農產品我們做個調整是不是"},{"start":7887.84,"end":7889.84,"text":"可以讓我們有這樣的授權"},{"start":7891.65,"end":7893.65,"text":"查驗辦法這邊因為真的"},{"start":7893.65,"end":7895.65,"text":"他會有不同的狀況有的大宗農產品"},{"start":7895.65,"end":7897.65,"text":"可能風險低有大宗農產品風險"},{"start":7897.65,"end":7899.65,"text":"高啦有的可能沒有很大宗"},{"start":7899.65,"end":7901.65,"text":"可是風險高啦還有不同樣態"},{"start":7901.65,"end":7903.65,"text":"對啊那我要問的就是說像"},{"start":7903.65,"end":7905.65,"text":"這次馬鈴薯事件"},{"start":7905.88,"end":7907.88,"text":"你們要怎麼你們要怎麼解決"},{"start":7907.88,"end":7909.88,"text":"讓我們從這個食品及相關"},{"start":7909.88,"end":7911.88,"text":"產品輸入查驗辦法這邊"},{"start":7911.88,"end":7913.88,"text":"針對特定的幾個項目"},{"start":7913.88,"end":7915.88,"text":"我們尤其在其中"},{"start":7915.88,"end":7917.88,"text":"應該是在第11條"},{"start":7917.88,"end":7919.88,"text":"這裡他有一些"},{"start":7919.88,"end":7921.88,"text":"第11條我們有的文字是"},{"start":7921.88,"end":7923.88,"text":"輸入產品有下列情形之一者才一般"},{"start":7923.88,"end":7925.88,"text":"然後我們還有輸入產品"},{"start":7925.88,"end":7927.88,"text":"有下列情形者才逐批"},{"start":7927.88,"end":7929.88,"text":"那一般跟逐批這邊他的一些標準"},{"start":7929.88,"end":7931.88,"text":"我們另外再去做調整好不好還有第14條"},{"start":7931.88,"end":7933.88,"text":"我們有一些"},{"start":7933.88,"end":7935.88,"text":"抽批打幾批以上我們有一些"},{"start":7935.88,"end":7937.88,"text":"符合標準會有調度的部分"},{"start":7937.88,"end":7939.88,"text":"讓我們在這個食品抽驗標準這邊"},{"start":7939.88,"end":7941.88,"text":"就是我們的輸入食品"},{"start":7941.88,"end":7943.88,"text":"查驗標準這裡去做調整"},{"start":7943.88,"end":7945.88,"text":"那我建議"},{"start":7945.88,"end":7947.88,"text":"趙偉是不是這一條先保了"},{"start":7947.88,"end":7949.88,"text":"你們把那個要怎麼改"},{"start":7950.61,"end":7952.61,"text":"對就是搭配準"},{"start":7952.61,"end":7954.61,"text":"你們那個讓我們覺得安心的"},{"start":7954.61,"end":7956.61,"text":"就是才按照這樣的文字好不好"},{"start":7957.11,"end":7959.11,"text":"好那第30條現行保留"},{"start":7959.11,"end":7961.11,"text":"那依照剛剛討論的內容"},{"start":7961.11,"end":7963.11,"text":"做經濟部的處理"},{"start":7965.58,"end":7969.58,"text":"那我們續審新增31-1"},{"start":7969.58,"end":7971.58,"text":"請為務說明"},{"start":7973.11,"end":7975.11,"text":"有關於31條之一的部分"},{"start":7975.11,"end":7979.11,"text":"由黃建豪委員及邱振聲委員提出"},{"start":7979.11,"end":7981.11,"text":"針對我們新增"},{"start":7981.11,"end":7983.11,"text":"輸入來源國資食品安全"},{"start":7983.11,"end":7985.11,"text":"衛生或品質相關的標準"},{"start":7985.11,"end":7987.11,"text":"要適用我國規定"},{"start":7987.11,"end":7989.11,"text":"並授權中央主管機關"},{"start":7989.11,"end":7991.11,"text":"得命業者或其代理人"},{"start":7991.11,"end":7993.11,"text":"於指定期限內"},{"start":7993.11,"end":7995.11,"text":"提出符合我國標準的檢驗報告"},{"start":7995.11,"end":7997.11,"text":"或相關的證明文件"},{"start":7997.11,"end":7999.11,"text":"作為准與輸入之"},{"start":7999.11,"end":8001.11,"text":"要件的一項"},{"start":8001.11,"end":8003.11,"text":"那因為我們現行的食安法裡面"},{"start":8003.11,"end":8005.11,"text":"對於其相關的規定"},{"start":8005.11,"end":8007.11,"text":"已經有明定了我們輸入食品"},{"start":8009.62,"end":8011.62,"text":"其實相關產品本來就應該要"},{"start":8011.62,"end":8013.62,"text":"符合我國的法令規定"},{"start":8014.4,"end":8018.4,"text":"並不就不符合我國規定之產品"},{"start":8018.4,"end":8020.4,"text":"訂定有管制的辦法"},{"start":8020.4,"end":8022.4,"text":"一定要是符合我們的"},{"start":8022.4,"end":8024.4,"text":"合合才能夠進來"},{"start":8024.4,"end":8026.4,"text":"另以授權主管機關"},{"start":8026.4,"end":8028.4,"text":"於必要時要求業者提供了"},{"start":8028.4,"end":8030.4,"text":"相關的紀錄文件及資料"},{"start":8030.4,"end":8032.4,"text":"或於申請輸入查驗時"},{"start":8032.4,"end":8036.4,"text":"檢附指定文件及資料"},{"start":8036.4,"end":8040.4,"text":"以足以達成委員提案的目的跟精神"},{"start":8040.4,"end":8042.4,"text":"委員考量我們現行的法制"},{"start":8042.4,"end":8046.4,"text":"以有相關的規範及執行的機制"},{"start":8046.4,"end":8050.4,"text":"上無新增訂專條的必要"},{"start":8050.4,"end":8052.4,"text":"所以這邊特別建議是不是"},{"start":8052.4,"end":8054.4,"text":"不予增訂"},{"start":8054.4,"end":8056.4,"text":"那我們在輸入食品及相關產品"},{"start":8056.4,"end":8058.4,"text":"我們本身在食安法及相關規定"},{"start":8058.4,"end":8062.4,"text":"其中食安法第52條第5項"},{"start":8062.4,"end":8064.4,"text":"跟食品及相關產品輸入查驗辦法的"},{"start":8064.4,"end":8066.4,"text":"第20條裡面"},{"start":8066.4,"end":8068.4,"text":"規定管制其輸入"},{"start":8068.4,"end":8070.4,"text":"就已經達成這樣的效果了"},{"start":8070.4,"end":8072.4,"text":"以上是進一步的一項說明"},{"start":8073.06,"end":8075.06,"text":"好,那請問在場委員"},{"start":8075.06,"end":8077.06,"text":"有沒有要提出來討論發言"},{"start":8079.64,"end":8083.64,"text":"如果沒有的話,那我們就31-1就不予增訂"},{"start":8086.05,"end":8088.05,"text":"續審31條之2"},{"start":8088.05,"end":8090.05,"text":"請為府說明"},{"start":8092.59,"end":8094.59,"text":"針對31條之2"},{"start":8094.59,"end":8098.59,"text":"邱政堅委員等20人提案"},{"start":8098.59,"end":8100.59,"text":"業者自主檢驗結果通報"},{"start":8100.59,"end":8102.59,"text":"及主管機關接獲通報"},{"start":8102.59,"end":8104.59,"text":"之後續的處理"},{"start":8104.59,"end":8106.59,"text":"整合勾稽的結果"},{"start":8106.59,"end":8108.59,"text":"追溯追蹤及輸入"},{"start":8108.59,"end":8110.59,"text":"申報相關資料等規定"},{"start":8110.59,"end":8112.59,"text":"那屬於第三章"},{"start":8112.59,"end":8114.59,"text":"食品業者衛生管理法"},{"start":8114.59,"end":8116.59,"text":"管理的專章的範疇"},{"start":8116.59,"end":8118.59,"text":"其實管理的意指的"},{"start":8118.59,"end":8120.59,"text":"在我們建議條文先前的第7條"},{"start":8120.59,"end":8122.59,"text":"跟第9條中有規範"},{"start":8122.59,"end":8126.59,"text":"那到31條之2的部分"},{"start":8126.59,"end":8130.59,"text":"我們放在的是食品輸入管理的專章"},{"start":8130.59,"end":8134.59,"text":"其規範重點在於輸入食品之管理"},{"start":8134.59,"end":8138.59,"text":"與前述業者自主檢驗結果通報"},{"start":8138.59,"end":8142.59,"text":"及主管機關後續處置的事實"},{"start":8142.59,"end":8144.59,"text":"在體例上也比較不符合"},{"start":8144.59,"end":8146.59,"text":"考量相關的提案意指"},{"start":8146.59,"end":8148.59,"text":"已經納入建議的條文"},{"start":8148.59,"end":8150.59,"text":"第7條第9條"},{"start":8150.59,"end":8152.59,"text":"這部分在後續未來"},{"start":8152.59,"end":8154.59,"text":"也會進一步的再去做討論"},{"start":8154.59,"end":8156.59,"text":"那且各"},{"start":8156.59,"end":8158.59,"text":"依各章節規範的事項"},{"start":8158.59,"end":8160.59,"text":"妥適的配置法條"},{"start":8160.59,"end":8164.59,"text":"原建議是不予增列第31條之2"},{"start":8164.59,"end":8166.59,"text":"以上說明"},{"start":8167.99,"end":8169.99,"text":"好 謝謝說明"},{"start":8169.99,"end":8171.99,"text":"那請問在場委員針對於這條文"},{"start":8171.99,"end":8173.99,"text":"有沒有進一步發言"},{"start":8175.78,"end":8177.78,"text":"如果沒有的話我們就不予增訂"},{"start":8180.29,"end":8182.29,"text":"我們續審第37條"},{"start":8182.29,"end":8184.29,"text":"那請衛福部說明"},{"start":8184.29,"end":8186.29,"text":"有關於第37條"},{"start":8186.29,"end":8188.29,"text":"由王遠明、王偉仁"},{"start":8188.29,"end":8190.29,"text":"王偉仁等25人提出建議條文"},{"start":8190.29,"end":8194.29,"text":"修正第二項及第三項"},{"start":8194.29,"end":8198.29,"text":"使與現行的檢驗認證制度"},{"start":8198.29,"end":8200.29,"text":"就特定的檢驗項目"},{"start":8200.29,"end":8204.29,"text":"確認受認證者之檢驗能力之管理"},{"start":8204.29,"end":8206.29,"text":"能夠相符"},{"start":8206.29,"end":8208.29,"text":"那本案稍微說明"},{"start":8208.29,"end":8210.29,"text":"未能參採的理由是"},{"start":8210.29,"end":8212.29,"text":"希望能夠維持原來的條文"},{"start":8212.29,"end":8216.29,"text":"因為現行的實評檢驗機構認證及委託認證管理辦法"},{"start":8216.29,"end":8218.29,"text":"第二條已經明定"},{"start":8218.29,"end":8222.29,"text":"就特定檢驗項目的辦理認證"},{"start":8223.47,"end":8227.47,"text":"現行認證機制已透過執法"},{"start":8227.47,"end":8229.47,"text":"明確規範認證範圍與方式"},{"start":8229.47,"end":8231.47,"text":"原物需要另予修正"},{"start":8233.02,"end":8236.02,"text":"另外委員提案在第三項裡面增列"},{"start":8236.02,"end":8238.02,"text":"檢驗之委任"},{"start":8238.57,"end":8242.57,"text":"認證工作之委任委託等文字"},{"start":8242.57,"end":8244.57,"text":"我們在原條文第一及第二項"},{"start":8244.57,"end":8246.57,"text":"已經有相關的文字"},{"start":8246.57,"end":8249.57,"text":"而且在行政程序法第15條裡面"},{"start":8249.57,"end":8252.57,"text":"已明定行政機關得以法"},{"start":8253.17,"end":8259.17,"text":"規將其權限之一部一部分委任所屬的下級機關"},{"start":8259.17,"end":8263.17,"text":"並應將委任事項及法規依據公告之"},{"start":8263.17,"end":8266.17,"text":"原物需另予修正"},{"start":8266.17,"end":8271.17,"text":"予及於執法規裡面規範委任之相關的事項"},{"start":8271.17,"end":8274.17,"text":"那就是以這樣子的情形"},{"start":8274.17,"end":8277.17,"text":"就進一步的做一些調整"},{"start":8277.17,"end":8279.17,"text":"這樣說明"},{"start":8279.55,"end":8281.55,"text":"是,來請問一委員"},{"start":8285.42,"end":8288.42,"text":"好,那就維持現行條文"},{"start":8288.42,"end":8291.42,"text":"第37條的部分"},{"start":8291.42,"end":8296.42,"text":"我們續審37-1條的內容"},{"start":8296.42,"end":8297.42,"text":"請外部說明"},{"start":8300.27,"end":8302.27,"text":"有關於37條之一"},{"start":8302.27,"end":8305.27,"text":"王運民委員提案"},{"start":8305.27,"end":8308.27,"text":"有關認證檢驗機構"},{"start":8308.27,"end":8313.27,"text":"接受食品業者委託檢驗實質通報義務"},{"start":8313.27,"end":8315.27,"text":"那續涉及食品業者"},{"start":8315.27,"end":8320.27,"text":"依第7條辦理相自主檢驗之管理機制"},{"start":8320.27,"end":8325.27,"text":"那依第三章食品業者衛生管理規範"},{"start":8325.27,"end":8329.27,"text":"已將提案一紙納入我們建議條文第7條第4項"},{"start":8329.27,"end":8332.27,"text":"以及同條的第6項授權研擬執法"},{"start":8332.27,"end":8335.27,"text":"明定我們認證機構"},{"start":8335.27,"end":8342.27,"text":"接受食品業者委託檢驗通報的內容方式對象以及實現等"},{"start":8342.27,"end":8345.27,"text":"那另外有關於第37條之一"},{"start":8345.27,"end":8349.27,"text":"我們至於第7章的食品檢驗的專章"},{"start":8349.27,"end":8355.27,"text":"現行人37條是各級主管機關公權力委任"},{"start":8355.27,"end":8358.27,"text":"認證檢驗機構辦理之相關事項"},{"start":8358.27,"end":8361.27,"text":"與提案所設檢驗機構"},{"start":8361.27,"end":8366.27,"text":"受食品業者委託檢驗的情形有所不同"},{"start":8366.27,"end":8368.27,"text":"考量的條文在第7條第4項"},{"start":8368.27,"end":8372.27,"text":"以及其授權執法規可以落實提案"},{"start":8372.27,"end":8375.27,"text":"所以要加強檢驗機構的議長通報"},{"start":8375.27,"end":8378.27,"text":"及主管機關即時掌握風險目的"},{"start":8378.27,"end":8380.27,"text":"並兼顧整個法規體力"},{"start":8380.27,"end":8383.27,"text":"所以我建議能夠不予甄定"},{"start":8383.27,"end":8384.27,"text":"以上說明"},{"start":8386.16,"end":8388.16,"text":"謝謝說明"},{"start":8388.16,"end":8389.16,"text":"謝謝議員委員"},{"start":8389.16,"end":8393.16,"text":"所以第37之一條就不予甄定"},{"start":8394.45,"end":8398.45,"text":"我們繼續審查第41條請微乎說明"},{"start":8399.36,"end":8402.36,"text":"有關於我們第41條"},{"start":8402.36,"end":8404.36,"text":"這第41條部分"},{"start":8404.36,"end":8408.36,"text":"跟待會的47條之一的部分"},{"start":8408.36,"end":8413.36,"text":"其實可以做進一步的整合一些思考"},{"start":8413.36,"end":8416.36,"text":"特別提到的中整各個提案的部分"},{"start":8416.36,"end":8422.36,"text":"行政院跟多數的版本修法的方向是一致的"},{"start":8422.36,"end":8427.36,"text":"那依現行第41條架構是強化地方主管機關的"},{"start":8427.36,"end":8430.36,"text":"現場的查核資料的調閱"},{"start":8430.36,"end":8433.36,"text":"產品下架封存等處置的權限"},{"start":8433.36,"end":8437.36,"text":"即中央主管機關就重大突發性"},{"start":8437.36,"end":8442.36,"text":"或其他食品安全衛生風險事件之管理措施"},{"start":8442.36,"end":8444.36,"text":"王委員特別提案的部分是"},{"start":8444.36,"end":8448.36,"text":"重新規劃了第41條跟41條之一的架構"},{"start":8448.36,"end":8454.36,"text":"現行的第41條的一列修正條文到41條之一"},{"start":8454.36,"end":8461.36,"text":"並於41條增列中央應訂定與執行專案查核計畫等事項"},{"start":8461.36,"end":8467.36,"text":"處理風險、高風險、大規模跨縣市食品安全的問題"},{"start":8467.36,"end":8471.36,"text":"定期公開專案查核之執行情形"},{"start":8471.36,"end":8476.36,"text":"查核結果及後續處理之情形及第41條之一"},{"start":8476.36,"end":8479.36,"text":"則延續現行41條之規範架構"},{"start":8479.36,"end":8485.36,"text":"並強化地方主管機關辦理、查核、抽驗等機制"},{"start":8485.36,"end":8490.36,"text":"明確區分中央跟地方主管機關的權責"},{"start":8490.36,"end":8496.36,"text":"目前延續起來,行政院提供的架構並參考各提案的重點"},{"start":8496.36,"end":8503.36,"text":"我們就增列中央與地方訂定專案查核或查核計畫的內容"},{"start":8503.36,"end":8506.36,"text":"及強化特定業者的外部監督"},{"start":8506.36,"end":8509.36,"text":"我們提出了一些修正的條文"},{"start":8509.36,"end":8511.36,"text":"特別是在第二項的部分"},{"start":8511.36,"end":8515.36,"text":"我們增訂了將現行查核的食物提升至母法"},{"start":8516.83,"end":8523.83,"text":"衛生管理為直轄市縣廣號4支自治事項"},{"start":8523.83,"end":8532.83,"text":"地方主管機關得以轄內產業特性、食品安全、衛生風險及食品業者分佈的情形"},{"start":8532.83,"end":8535.83,"text":"視妥適的配置等稽查資源"},{"start":8535.83,"end":8540.83,"text":"訂定年度的稽查計畫辦理現場查核跟抽驗的檢驗"},{"start":8540.83,"end":8544.83,"text":"原來第二項我們就移至第三項"},{"start":8544.83,"end":8552.83,"text":"另外我們明確的中央跟地方主管機關執行稽查及檢驗之權責"},{"start":8552.83,"end":8562.83,"text":"我們修正訂明中央就重大突發性及其他食品安全衛生風險事件"},{"start":8562.83,"end":8563.83,"text":"EAT THE"},{"start":8564.14,"end":8567.14,"text":"辦理查核檢驗等措施"},{"start":8567.14,"end":8571.14,"text":"這些地方應配合辦理"},{"start":8571.14,"end":8578.14,"text":"並增訂中央得整合食品安全及風險評估的資訊統籌"},{"start":8578.14,"end":8584.14,"text":"規劃全國專案查核計畫並加入地方具體的執行"},{"start":8584.14,"end":8589.14,"text":"以強化中央地方協助的協同稽查的量能"},{"start":8589.14,"end":8593.14,"text":"以上的說明針對我們中央跟地方如何去共同協作"},{"start":8593.14,"end":8596.14,"text":"特別是在第二項裡面"},{"start":8596.14,"end":8601.14,"text":"我們做了中央跟地方的權責的部分做了說明"},{"start":8601.14,"end":8605.14,"text":"把第幾條之一的業者的規定能夠導入"},{"start":8613.32,"end":8617.32,"text":"那我們針對中央主管機關"},{"start":8617.32,"end":8623.32,"text":"我們就採取得整合食品安全及風險評估資訊"},{"start":8623.32,"end":8627.32,"text":"規劃全國性專案查核的計畫"},{"start":8628.41,"end":8630.41,"text":"交由直轄市縣市"},{"start":8630.96,"end":8632.96,"text":"主管機關執行"},{"start":8632.96,"end":8638.96,"text":"就重大突發或其他食品衛生安全風險事件"},{"start":8638.96,"end":8642.96,"text":"中央主管機關一得前項規定之措施"},{"start":8642.96,"end":8647.96,"text":"直轄市縣市主管機關應配合辦理"},{"start":8647.96,"end":8650.96,"text":"這在第二項的部分做進一步的說明"},{"start":8653.59,"end":8656.59,"text":"謝謝 我想這一條真的是"},{"start":8656.59,"end":8659.59,"text":"因應這次我們所發生的事件"},{"start":8659.59,"end":8661.59,"text":"做一個很重大的調整"},{"start":8661.59,"end":8664.59,"text":"內容也相當的廣泛"},{"start":8664.59,"end":8668.59,"text":"最重要還是針對於地方主管機關跟中央主管機關"},{"start":8668.59,"end":8670.59,"text":"如何能夠把它整合"},{"start":8670.59,"end":8675.59,"text":"在守護我們民眾這個食品安全的部分"},{"start":8675.59,"end":8679.59,"text":"有非常完整的一些處理的這個需求"},{"start":8679.59,"end":8681.59,"text":"那看各位"},{"start":8682.48,"end":8684.48,"text":"希望委員說明"},{"start":8684.48,"end":8686.48,"text":"然後再來就監會委員"},{"start":8686.48,"end":8689.48,"text":"好 我想問一下"},{"start":8689.48,"end":8693.48,"text":"就是我們這個其中有一個重大突發性"},{"start":8693.48,"end":8697.48,"text":"或其他食品衛生安全風險事件"},{"start":8697.48,"end":8701.48,"text":"那我是不是可以請這個食藥署這邊解釋一下"},{"start":8701.48,"end":8705.48,"text":"其他風險事件是什麼 是怎麼去定義的"},{"start":8709.55,"end":8713.55,"text":"我們是怎麼去定義說這個其他風險事件"},{"start":8713.55,"end":8718.55,"text":"那另外就是說這個其中有一個預防性的下架"},{"start":8718.55,"end":8722.55,"text":"那這個就是說預防性的下架"},{"start":8722.55,"end":8724.55,"text":"是在什麼樣的情況下"},{"start":8724.55,"end":8726.55,"text":"然後預防性的下架"},{"start":8726.55,"end":8731.55,"text":"會不會是有時候就是說沒有經過查證"},{"start":8731.55,"end":8734.55,"text":"或者是可能輿論的壓力"},{"start":8734.55,"end":8736.55,"text":"那就預防性的下架"},{"start":8736.55,"end":8741.55,"text":"我覺得就是說缺乏一個法定的一個門檻"},{"start":8741.55,"end":8744.55,"text":"就是說是不是可以再更明確一點"},{"start":8746.72,"end":8750.72,"text":"希望我們是不是也等監會委員發言以後"},{"start":8750.72,"end":8752.72,"text":"我們再一併來處理"},{"start":8752.72,"end":8754.72,"text":"來 監會委員請"},{"start":8755.5,"end":8756.5,"text":"好 謝謝主席"},{"start":8756.5,"end":8762.5,"text":"我這邊要講的部分就是分成第一項 第二項跟第三項"},{"start":8762.5,"end":8764.5,"text":"那剛剛有在第一項提到說"},{"start":8764.5,"end":8769.5,"text":"把法條改為地方政府應執行這一點"},{"start":8769.5,"end":8772.5,"text":"因為我們在第五條 就是食安法第五條"},{"start":8772.5,"end":8776.5,"text":"還有第41條都已經規定得非常詳細了"},{"start":8776.5,"end":8780.5,"text":"各級主管機關與監測發現有危害食品安全"},{"start":8780.5,"end":8782.5,"text":"衛生安全之餘的事件"},{"start":8782.5,"end":8785.5,"text":"因主動查驗 包括抽樣檢驗"},{"start":8785.5,"end":8789.5,"text":"追查原料來源 產品流向等等的工作"},{"start":8789.5,"end":8791.5,"text":"那今年呢 我有去看了一些案例"},{"start":8791.5,"end":8796.5,"text":"今年2026年7月30號監察院公佈一個"},{"start":8796.5,"end":8800.5,"text":"工業級的雙氧水清洗豬腸案的調查結果"},{"start":8800.5,"end":8803.5,"text":"指出食藥署跟屏東縣衛生局"},{"start":8803.5,"end":8807.5,"text":"延遲近四個月才稽查回收問題產品"},{"start":8807.5,"end":8811.5,"text":"違反現行第41條相關規定要求檢討改善"},{"start":8811.5,"end":8816.5,"text":"這個顯示現行的條文雖然是使用得"},{"start":8816.5,"end":8821.5,"text":"可是呢 機關還是可以採取必要的措施"},{"start":8821.5,"end":8824.5,"text":"所以第一個想要釐清的是"},{"start":8824.5,"end":8826.5,"text":"就是在第一項 第二項 第三項"},{"start":8826.5,"end":8830.5,"text":"很多東西是跟第五條還有第41條"},{"start":8830.5,"end":8833.5,"text":"是疊床加物都有重複的部分"},{"start":8833.5,"end":8836.5,"text":"都有稽查跟管制的權限"},{"start":8836.5,"end":8839.5,"text":"可以請這個食藥署具體說明"},{"start":8839.5,"end":8843.5,"text":"為什麼改這些字對你們而言"},{"start":8843.5,"end":8847.5,"text":"現在依法處理有什麼限制嗎"},{"start":8847.5,"end":8849.5,"text":"有什麼你們做不到的地方"},{"start":8849.5,"end":8851.5,"text":"因為我不太理解"},{"start":8851.5,"end":8853.5,"text":"現在有第五條跟第41條"},{"start":8853.5,"end":8856.5,"text":"監察院就已經有檢討這個"},{"start":8856.5,"end":8858.5,"text":"食藥署跟屏東縣衛生局了"},{"start":8858.5,"end":8863.5,"text":"那第三項這邊剛剛署長有念過"},{"start":8865.49,"end":8867.49,"text":"我是主張保留"},{"start":8867.49,"end":8872.49,"text":"因為你在所有的中央政府都是得"},{"start":8872.49,"end":8876.49,"text":"然後所有的地方政府都是因配合辦理"},{"start":8876.49,"end":8880.49,"text":"這邊我覺得你實務上會遇到一些問題"},{"start":8880.49,"end":8882.49,"text":"因為比如說"},{"start":8883.15,"end":8884.15,"text":"這個全國性的專案"},{"start":8884.15,"end":8887.15,"text":"它可能涉及地方沒有的檢驗項目"},{"start":8887.15,"end":8891.15,"text":"然後額外抽驗量還有跨縣市追查需求"},{"start":8891.15,"end":8893.15,"text":"這一項地方政府因配合"},{"start":8893.15,"end":8896.15,"text":"可是沒有同步交代中央政府"},{"start":8896.15,"end":8901.15,"text":"應該要如何評估執行的條件 支援"},{"start":8901.15,"end":8903.15,"text":"然後如何給地方資源"},{"start":8903.15,"end":8905.15,"text":"然後中央的責任到底在哪裡"},{"start":8905.15,"end":8906.15,"text":"如果查驗有問題"},{"start":8906.15,"end":8909.15,"text":"責任歸屬應該是什麼"},{"start":8909.15,"end":8911.15,"text":"當然回歸到我們最一開始"},{"start":8911.15,"end":8914.15,"text":"所以這條文第五條就有很明確的規定"},{"start":8914.15,"end":8916.15,"text":"所以我不太知道第一項第二項第三項"},{"start":8916.15,"end":8918.15,"text":"你實際想這樣子修"},{"start":8918.15,"end":8920.15,"text":"到底的必要性在哪裡"},{"start":8920.15,"end":8921.15,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8923.22,"end":8925.22,"text":"好 那個再請易林委員發言"},{"start":8926.66,"end":8928.66,"text":"關於第四十一條"},{"start":8928.66,"end":8931.66,"text":"因為這涉及到中央跟地方職責的分工"},{"start":8931.66,"end":8933.66,"text":"我要就叫衛福部"},{"start":8933.66,"end":8936.66,"text":"就是這個相關條文的修法"},{"start":8936.66,"end":8938.66,"text":"你們有沒有跟地方政府"},{"start":8938.66,"end":8941.66,"text":"就是開過相關的會議"},{"start":8941.66,"end":8945.66,"text":"就是大家針對現行這個食安稽查"},{"start":8945.66,"end":8948.66,"text":"那這個中央跟地方政府的分工"},{"start":8948.66,"end":8950.66,"text":"還有應該要怎麼樣整合"},{"start":8950.66,"end":8953.66,"text":"其實是會有助於未來的運作"},{"start":8953.66,"end":8955.66,"text":"我覺得這樣修法才有意義"},{"start":8955.66,"end":8956.66,"text":"而不是片面式的"},{"start":8956.66,"end":8959.66,"text":"因為現在其實是很多委員提出版本"},{"start":8959.66,"end":8962.66,"text":"但是我覺得更關鍵的是"},{"start":8962.66,"end":8966.66,"text":"食安其實它真正應該建構的就是食安一條邊"},{"start":8966.66,"end":8969.66,"text":"就是說這個食藥署的指揮體系"},{"start":8969.66,"end":8971.66,"text":"要能發揮很強大的功能"},{"start":8971.66,"end":8975.66,"text":"那地方政府也體認到應該要怎麼樣互相合作"},{"start":8975.66,"end":8978.66,"text":"那你們應該去理解地方政府有哪一些"},{"start":8978.66,"end":8982.66,"text":"它現行的運作的困難或資源條件不足等等"},{"start":8982.66,"end":8984.66,"text":"所以我要就叫就是說"},{"start":8984.66,"end":8987.66,"text":"在這一條你們有沒有跟地方政府"},{"start":8987.66,"end":8989.66,"text":"好好的坐下來開會"},{"start":8989.66,"end":8992.66,"text":"因為每一次的重大食安事件"},{"start":8992.66,"end":8996.66,"text":"坦白講中央地方都一定是要一起合作的"},{"start":8996.66,"end":8998.66,"text":"因為它波及的縣市都是跨縣市的"},{"start":8998.66,"end":8999.66,"text":"很少"},{"start":9000.76,"end":9003.76,"text":"就是很小範圍就是只停留在單一縣市"},{"start":9003.76,"end":9004.76,"text":"幾乎都是跨縣市"},{"start":9004.76,"end":9006.76,"text":"特別是像之前這個有品事件"},{"start":9006.76,"end":9008.76,"text":"那幾乎每一個縣市都中"},{"start":9008.76,"end":9010.76,"text":"那所以這一個地方"},{"start":9010.76,"end":9013.76,"text":"我覺得如果要修法有意義的話"},{"start":9013.76,"end":9015.76,"text":"你們這個工作應該先做"},{"start":9015.76,"end":9018.76,"text":"中央政府跟地方政府坐下來好好開會"},{"start":9018.76,"end":9021.76,"text":"就是特別是最近發起的這樣重大食安事件"},{"start":9021.76,"end":9024.76,"text":"那到底還有哪一些彼此之間應該去調整"},{"start":9024.76,"end":9026.76,"text":"而且讓那個整個的整合是更有效率"},{"start":9026.76,"end":9028.76,"text":"更能發揮作用的"},{"start":9028.76,"end":9030.76,"text":"我覺得那個修法才有意義"},{"start":9030.76,"end":9033.76,"text":"因為有沒有去開會待會回覆一下"},{"start":9034.32,"end":9037.32,"text":"好 那就麻煩衛福士先生先說明"},{"start":9037.32,"end":9039.32,"text":"好 我跟署長依序回覆"},{"start":9039.32,"end":9041.32,"text":"第一個事情就是說"},{"start":9041.32,"end":9044.32,"text":"剛剛宣發委員這邊有提到包含暫時下架這個部分"},{"start":9044.32,"end":9048.32,"text":"在原來法條 現行法條的第五款是有"},{"start":9048.32,"end":9051.32,"text":"就是說假設有相關違反第八條"},{"start":9051.32,"end":9055.32,"text":"第一項 第十五條 第四項 第十六條的話"},{"start":9055.32,"end":9060.32,"text":"那我們可以要求這個食品業者暫停作業跟停止販賣"},{"start":9060.32,"end":9062.32,"text":"所以在後面的法條會有"},{"start":9062.32,"end":9067.32,"text":"對於這樣子的預防性下架之後的一些風險補償等等的部分"},{"start":9067.32,"end":9069.32,"text":"這個部分先跟委員做個說明"},{"start":9069.32,"end":9073.32,"text":"那再來的話其實先中整一下就是說"},{"start":9073.32,"end":9076.32,"text":"在原來的四十一條的版本裡面"},{"start":9076.32,"end":9079.32,"text":"我也認同剛剛也謝謝委員"},{"start":9079.32,"end":9081.32,"text":"就是這一次想要利用修法"},{"start":9081.32,"end":9084.32,"text":"我們也把中央跟地方的權責整合一下"},{"start":9084.32,"end":9087.32,"text":"那其實過去長期以來地方本來就有它一定在"},{"start":9087.32,"end":9089.32,"text":"對於特定的食品"},{"start":9089.32,"end":9093.32,"text":"或者它自己轄區內的一些食品去做檢查"},{"start":9093.32,"end":9096.32,"text":"那中央這邊 舉例來說像油的部分"},{"start":9096.32,"end":9100.32,"text":"我們也定期會由中央來做一個這個專案"},{"start":9100.32,"end":9102.32,"text":"那這個專案就回到剛剛委員所提到"},{"start":9102.32,"end":9104.32,"text":"可能地方沒有的量能"},{"start":9104.32,"end":9107.32,"text":"或者是地方本身檢驗的項目的能力不夠的話"},{"start":9107.32,"end":9110.32,"text":"在專案這一邊我們就用專案的方式"},{"start":9110.32,"end":9113.32,"text":"協助地方縣市政府可以由中央來補助"},{"start":9113.32,"end":9114.32,"text":"用專案的方式來查"},{"start":9114.32,"end":9117.32,"text":"所以在這一次的有品事件裡面可以看到"},{"start":9117.32,"end":9120.32,"text":"其實主要在這個有些縣市它的查核"},{"start":9120.32,"end":9122.32,"text":"就是我們在中央的專案裡面去做出來的"},{"start":9122.32,"end":9126.32,"text":"那但是當然所以也我們中整了委員的第41條"},{"start":9126.32,"end":9129.32,"text":"跟第41條之一的相關的法義"},{"start":9129.32,"end":9131.32,"text":"跟想要修法的精神"},{"start":9131.32,"end":9133.32,"text":"那第一個事情就考量到"},{"start":9133.32,"end":9136.32,"text":"當然沒有錯有些事情在中央可能會認為"},{"start":9136.32,"end":9139.32,"text":"它是比較重要或者中央希望來交由"},{"start":9139.32,"end":9144.32,"text":"全國各直轄市直轄縣市主管機關來執行的一些專案"},{"start":9144.32,"end":9147.32,"text":"但是依照地方有一些不同的產業"},{"start":9147.32,"end":9150.32,"text":"那如果有都由中央權責來處理"},{"start":9150.32,"end":9154.32,"text":"可能也會有就是對於地方的特定產業"},{"start":9154.32,"end":9157.32,"text":"可能由中央統籌的話會有一些漏掉的問題"},{"start":9157.32,"end":9161.32,"text":"或者是偏重某些產業偏重某些縣市"},{"start":9161.32,"end":9162.32,"text":"某些縣市沒有辦法被cover到"},{"start":9162.32,"end":9165.32,"text":"所以我們在後來去調整的這個條文裡面"},{"start":9165.32,"end":9167.32,"text":"就想說在第二項跟第三項"},{"start":9167.32,"end":9169.32,"text":"分別把中央跟地方"},{"start":9171.08,"end":9175.08,"text":"在食品安全這裡的相關這個查驗的措施"},{"start":9175.08,"end":9177.08,"text":"去做一個分項的說明"},{"start":9177.08,"end":9180.08,"text":"就參考委員的這個立法精神"},{"start":9180.08,"end":9183.08,"text":"那另外的話就是剛剛委員這邊提到的"},{"start":9183.08,"end":9186.08,"text":"我們在我們在玉米的這個文字裡面"},{"start":9186.08,"end":9189.08,"text":"是以中央主管機關得整合"},{"start":9189.08,"end":9192.08,"text":"那地方政府也得依其轄內產品特性"},{"start":9192.08,"end":9195.08,"text":"那當然如果委員認為強度上面需要再調整"},{"start":9195.08,"end":9197.08,"text":"我們等一下可以再討論"},{"start":9197.08,"end":9199.08,"text":"那剛剛其實委員提到說"},{"start":9199.08,"end":9201.08,"text":"這個跟地方是不是能夠執行等等"},{"start":9201.08,"end":9203.08,"text":"一個部分是我們也收到很多地方政府"},{"start":9203.08,"end":9205.08,"text":"也希望我們在這次修法裡面"},{"start":9205.08,"end":9209.08,"text":"能夠在中央跟地方的這個權責能夠分清楚"},{"start":9209.08,"end":9211.08,"text":"這樣子他們在執行"},{"start":9211.08,"end":9212.08,"text":"或者是我們中央在介入的時候"},{"start":9212.08,"end":9214.08,"text":"比較有一些相關的法源可以處理"},{"start":9214.08,"end":9217.08,"text":"那至於說其他的細節我請署長補充一下"},{"start":9220.18,"end":9223.18,"text":"我們在政委主持的"},{"start":9223.18,"end":9225.18,"text":"食安法修法的會議的時候"},{"start":9225.18,"end":9229.18,"text":"其實在縣市六個都的縣市首長"},{"start":9229.18,"end":9230.18,"text":"其實都有做出席"},{"start":9230.18,"end":9233.18,"text":"在中間我們在做進一步做溝通"},{"start":9233.18,"end":9236.18,"text":"那後續的部分這些修法的一些共識"},{"start":9236.18,"end":9239.18,"text":"我們其實持續在進行"},{"start":9239.18,"end":9242.18,"text":"沒有正式的做下來修法"},{"start":9242.18,"end":9244.18,"text":"對但是有請他們提醒他們"},{"start":9244.18,"end":9246.18,"text":"他們有意見可以能夠提出"},{"start":9246.18,"end":9249.18,"text":"那對於剛才提到的整個稽查的部分"},{"start":9249.18,"end":9253.18,"text":"那因為剛才特別提到我們是中央"},{"start":9253.18,"end":9255.18,"text":"其實是跟地方之間"},{"start":9255.18,"end":9259.18,"text":"其實是分屬合作進行食品的稽查的專案"},{"start":9259.18,"end":9264.18,"text":"那食藥署門會依據整個食品安全的風險的管理原則"},{"start":9264.18,"end":9267.18,"text":"綜合參考其實整個施政重點"},{"start":9267.18,"end":9270.18,"text":"跟法規的歷年的稽查情形"},{"start":9270.18,"end":9271.18,"text":"跟餘情的狀況"},{"start":9271.18,"end":9275.18,"text":"作為中央食品年度稽查的專案"},{"start":9276.18,"end":9281.18,"text":"所以我們今年的專案也有將近有40個30幾個專案"},{"start":9281.18,"end":9283.18,"text":"那在持續進行"},{"start":9283.18,"end":9286.18,"text":"這專案的其實已經確立下來之後"},{"start":9286.18,"end":9289.18,"text":"跟地方其實共同去協作"},{"start":9289.18,"end":9292.18,"text":"然後達成這樣子的專案的執行"},{"start":9292.18,"end":9294.18,"text":"所以這邊特別進一步的說明"},{"start":9294.18,"end":9297.18,"text":"那我們會如何去訂定的"},{"start":9297.18,"end":9300.18,"text":"的確是按照我們整個政策性上面重點"},{"start":9300.18,"end":9302.18,"text":"我們發現哪些是屬於高風險的"},{"start":9302.18,"end":9305.18,"text":"用我們現在有一些跨部會的大數據"},{"start":9305.18,"end":9308.18,"text":"能夠整合整個統計的數據"},{"start":9308.18,"end":9310.18,"text":"過去集合的結果"},{"start":9310.18,"end":9314.18,"text":"還有或是國際的餘情跨部會的風險的資訊"},{"start":9314.18,"end":9318.18,"text":"我們會先訂出所謂優先稽查的業者的清單"},{"start":9318.18,"end":9320.18,"text":"以及稽查的品項相似"},{"start":9320.18,"end":9323.18,"text":"那有地方機關依照轄內產業現況"},{"start":9323.18,"end":9326.18,"text":"也可以做業者分布的自主規劃"},{"start":9326.18,"end":9329.18,"text":"跟執行轄內食品業者的例行性"},{"start":9329.18,"end":9331.18,"text":"跟專案性的查核"},{"start":9331.18,"end":9334.18,"text":"再把查核的結果我們上傳在"},{"start":9334.18,"end":9337.18,"text":"要署內的PMDS的飛機不可系統"},{"start":9337.18,"end":9339.18,"text":"讓整個查核結果中央地方"},{"start":9339.18,"end":9342.18,"text":"作為後續共同查處的原則"},{"start":9342.18,"end":9344.18,"text":"所以這樣子的機制的確都是"},{"start":9344.18,"end":9345.18,"text":"已經存在"},{"start":9345.18,"end":9347.18,"text":"只是在第41條裡面"},{"start":9347.18,"end":9349.18,"text":"我們特別強化了"},{"start":9349.18,"end":9351.18,"text":"把它列出來中央地方"},{"start":9352.03,"end":9353.03,"text":"剛剛有提到"},{"start":9353.03,"end":9357.03,"text":"委員特別在41條跟41條之一的部分"},{"start":9357.03,"end":9362.03,"text":"把中央跟地方完全分開來做重塑"},{"start":9362.03,"end":9363.03,"text":"再說明"},{"start":9363.03,"end":9365.03,"text":"那我們這邊是把我們的"},{"start":9365.03,"end":9367.03,"text":"地方的部分在第二條"},{"start":9367.03,"end":9371.03,"text":"第二項裡面進一步的說明"},{"start":9371.03,"end":9375.03,"text":"中央部分的第三裡面做進一步的說明"},{"start":9375.03,"end":9377.03,"text":"所以以上說明"},{"start":9378.81,"end":9379.81,"text":"好請"},{"start":9379.81,"end":9381.81,"text":"我在從剛剛宣發委員問到的就是"},{"start":9381.81,"end":9384.81,"text":"中央這邊就重大突發"},{"start":9384.81,"end":9386.81,"text":"或其他食品衛生安全風險事件"},{"start":9386.81,"end":9388.81,"text":"中央主管機關來做的這個措施"},{"start":9388.81,"end":9392.81,"text":"就是說地方政府平常它針對"},{"start":9392.81,"end":9393.81,"text":"就是我們在原來"},{"start":9393.81,"end":9395.81,"text":"我們現在所蘊擬的文字裡面"},{"start":9395.81,"end":9397.81,"text":"地方政府主管機關"},{"start":9397.81,"end":9399.81,"text":"它得以它轄內的產業特性"},{"start":9399.81,"end":9401.81,"text":"或它食品衛生安全風險"},{"start":9401.81,"end":9402.81,"text":"跟食品業者的分布"},{"start":9402.81,"end":9404.81,"text":"來做它的年度稽查"},{"start":9404.81,"end":9405.81,"text":"那中央這邊的突發性"},{"start":9405.81,"end":9406.81,"text":"有什麼樣的例子呢"},{"start":9406.81,"end":9407.81,"text":"就是說"},{"start":9407.81,"end":9409.81,"text":"中央這邊是要所謂定期的去"},{"start":9409.81,"end":9412.81,"text":"他們是平常就是都一直在追蹤全球"},{"start":9412.81,"end":9414.81,"text":"因為我們畢竟在很多食品是從國外"},{"start":9414.81,"end":9415.81,"text":"等等會有"},{"start":9415.81,"end":9417.81,"text":"所以我們都會隨時在注意就是說"},{"start":9417.81,"end":9419.81,"text":"全球有沒有一些突發性的"},{"start":9419.81,"end":9420.81,"text":"食品衛生安全風險"},{"start":9420.81,"end":9422.81,"text":"那這個動作當然不太可能"},{"start":9422.81,"end":9423.81,"text":"要求地方政府去做"},{"start":9423.81,"end":9425.81,"text":"那所以說由中央這邊"},{"start":9425.81,"end":9427.81,"text":"我們發現突發性的這個食品安全"},{"start":9427.81,"end":9429.81,"text":"尤其是國際上有發生"},{"start":9429.81,"end":9431.81,"text":"食品衛生安全風險事件的時候"},{"start":9431.81,"end":9434.81,"text":"那就由中央主管機關這邊來啟動這個動作"},{"start":9434.81,"end":9436.81,"text":"那當然直接來把這樣的資訊"},{"start":9436.81,"end":9438.81,"text":"交由地方主管機關來協助辦理"},{"start":9438.81,"end":9440.81,"text":"所以大概舉個例子跟委員說明"},{"start":9440.81,"end":9442.81,"text":"重大突發的大概是這樣子的例子"},{"start":9442.81,"end":9443.81,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":9444.22,"end":9445.22,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":9446.39,"end":9448.39,"text":"有請劉建國委員發言"},{"start":9464.74,"end":9466.74,"text":"你們好像都沒有回應"},{"start":9466.74,"end":9469.74,"text":"你們是不認可 不接受 反對"},{"start":9469.74,"end":9473.74,"text":"我們預計是在提案裡面"},{"start":9473.74,"end":9476.74,"text":"我們在另外在甄定在7-1裡面"},{"start":9476.74,"end":9478.74,"text":"第一項第一款裡面"},{"start":9478.74,"end":9481.74,"text":"已經強制公告類別及規模特定業者"},{"start":9481.74,"end":9484.74,"text":"其食品安全監測計畫"},{"start":9484.74,"end":9486.74,"text":"應經過專業簽證裡面"},{"start":9486.74,"end":9488.74,"text":"專業簽證裡面我們其實把"},{"start":9488.74,"end":9490.74,"text":"我們食品醫護公共衛生師"},{"start":9490.74,"end":9493.74,"text":"生計等相關的專業"},{"start":9493.74,"end":9495.74,"text":"一多數的具備的食品技師"},{"start":9495.74,"end":9497.74,"text":"營養師等專業的證照製造"},{"start":9497.74,"end":9500.74,"text":"我們在是在第7-1條裡面"},{"start":9500.74,"end":9502.74,"text":"這個部分上次是保留"},{"start":9502.74,"end":9505.74,"text":"所以我們後續會跟委員這邊做進一步的去"},{"start":9505.74,"end":9507.74,"text":"部分我們有參彩 有納入了"},{"start":9507.74,"end":9508.74,"text":"以上說明"},{"start":9510.4,"end":9513.4,"text":"不是 你7-1導入公衛跟"},{"start":9513.4,"end":9516.4,"text":"公衛師跟這個食品技師嘛 對不對"},{"start":9516.4,"end":9517.4,"text":"你簽證稽查"},{"start":9518.68,"end":9519.68,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":9519.48,"end":9521.48,"text":"這7-1條可以解決"},{"start":9524.29,"end":9526.29,"text":"其實是沒有特別有稽查的部分"},{"start":9526.29,"end":9527.29,"text":"但是真的簽證的"},{"start":9527.29,"end":9530.29,"text":"我們在 我現在在某一個條文有寫到這件"},{"start":9530.29,"end":9533.29,"text":"我是去年在10月13的時候啦"},{"start":9533.29,"end":9535.29,"text":"因為那天是署長在嘛"},{"start":9535.29,"end":9537.29,"text":"食安的稽查人力一直不足嘛"},{"start":9538.21,"end":9540.21,"text":"對不對 這是現狀嘛"},{"start":9540.21,"end":9541.21,"text":"沒有錯嘛"},{"start":9541.21,"end":9544.21,"text":"然後當時有調出114年度的時候"},{"start":9544.21,"end":9546.21,"text":"FDA的稽查人力是167"},{"start":9546.21,"end":9549.21,"text":"那地方衛生局463"},{"start":9549.21,"end":9551.21,"text":"合計差不多630位啦"},{"start":9551.21,"end":9554.21,"text":"然後如果要扣除這個邊境的差異人力"},{"start":9554.21,"end":9558.21,"text":"真正投入到這個國內的食安稽查人力"},{"start":9558.21,"end":9560.21,"text":"應該只有549"},{"start":9560.21,"end":9564.21,"text":"那549我們有將近47萬家的食品業者"},{"start":9564.21,"end":9566.21,"text":"你這些人力的一個佔比"},{"start":9567.76,"end":9569.76,"text":"這個顯然是有問題的"},{"start":9570.88,"end":9572.88,"text":"這個不是現在在討論啦"},{"start":9572.88,"end":9573.88,"text":"之前就有提醒過"},{"start":9573.88,"end":9575.88,"text":"我們有把它寫在條文"},{"start":9575.88,"end":9577.88,"text":"但是是不是容許我們稍微找一下"},{"start":9577.88,"end":9579.88,"text":"再跟委員這邊報告好不好"},{"start":9581.38,"end":9584.38,"text":"市長你還要再找就代表有問題"},{"start":9584.38,"end":9586.38,"text":"有問題的"},{"start":9587.15,"end":9588.15,"text":"這麼多條"},{"start":9588.15,"end":9590.15,"text":"但是你現在要把"},{"start":9590.15,"end":9591.15,"text":"我們希望把公衛司"},{"start":9591.15,"end":9593.15,"text":"跟食品技師導入到"},{"start":9593.15,"end":9596.15,"text":"這個食安的整個的"},{"start":9596.15,"end":9598.15,"text":"這樣的一個流程"},{"start":9598.15,"end":9602.15,"text":"的半年更強的一個角色的情況之下"},{"start":9602.15,"end":9604.15,"text":"那個當然就要非常的明確化嘛"},{"start":9604.15,"end":9605.15,"text":"那7月8號"},{"start":9605.15,"end":9606.15,"text":"今年7月8號"},{"start":9606.15,"end":9608.15,"text":"我又特別在委員會有質詢"},{"start":9608.15,"end":9611.15,"text":"再提出這個食品技師的問題"},{"start":9611.15,"end":9612.15,"text":"就是希望說"},{"start":9612.75,"end":9617.75,"text":"我也不應該嚴厲導入這個食品技師的驗證制度"},{"start":9617.75,"end":9620.75,"text":"那強化這個食品安全的三級把關嘛"},{"start":9620.75,"end":9621.75,"text":"哪三級"},{"start":9621.75,"end":9624.75,"text":"第一級就是食品業者內部的食品技師"},{"start":9625.37,"end":9629.37,"text":"落實整個食品製程品質及這個衛生安全管理嘛"},{"start":9629.37,"end":9631.37,"text":"是謝謝委員這邊催詢"},{"start":9631.37,"end":9633.37,"text":"我倒要進一步說明"},{"start":9633.37,"end":9635.37,"text":"我們三級驗證裡面"},{"start":9635.37,"end":9639.37,"text":"41條第一項第一款是主管機關執行現場查核"},{"start":9639.37,"end":9642.37,"text":"它是屬於公權力之執行"},{"start":9642.37,"end":9648.37,"text":"那涉現場的稽查法規跟含涉及處分的強制作為"},{"start":9648.37,"end":9652.37,"text":"所以這個部分我們對於現行"},{"start":9652.37,"end":9654.37,"text":"現場的查核人員"},{"start":9654.37,"end":9657.37,"text":"其實他都有具備這樣子的身份的"},{"start":9657.37,"end":9659.37,"text":"那我們先前採納的部分"},{"start":9659.37,"end":9661.37,"text":"特別是在二級評管裡面"},{"start":9661.37,"end":9665.37,"text":"在我們第七條的七之一"},{"start":9665.37,"end":9667.37,"text":"特別在第七條裡面特別提到"},{"start":9667.37,"end":9670.37,"text":"食品業者因實施自主管理"},{"start":9670.37,"end":9674.37,"text":"訂定食品安全監測計畫確保食品安全衛生"},{"start":9674.37,"end":9677.37,"text":"符合一定類別及規模"},{"start":9677.37,"end":9679.37,"text":"都要其食品安全監測計畫"},{"start":9679.37,"end":9682.37,"text":"飲精專業簽證後"},{"start":9683.47,"end":9686.47,"text":"報經中央主管機關核定"},{"start":9686.47,"end":9689.47,"text":"這部分是在我們的整個簽證的計畫的部分"},{"start":9689.47,"end":9692.47,"text":"我剛才特別提到41條第一項第一款"},{"start":9692.47,"end":9695.47,"text":"的確是主管機關執行現場查核"},{"start":9695.47,"end":9696.47,"text":"執行公權力"},{"start":9696.47,"end":9700.47,"text":"所以這些技師執行公權力的部分"},{"start":9700.47,"end":9704.47,"text":"可能會有涉及剛才提到的強制的行為"},{"start":9704.47,"end":9706.47,"text":"特別特別"},{"start":9706.47,"end":9707.47,"text":"因此我們才會說"},{"start":9707.47,"end":9710.47,"text":"在第七條之一的第一項第一款裡面"},{"start":9710.47,"end":9712.47,"text":"強制公告的類別及規模"},{"start":9712.47,"end":9714.47,"text":"是特定業者食品業者的時候"},{"start":9714.47,"end":9716.47,"text":"是食品安全監測計畫"},{"start":9716.47,"end":9718.47,"text":"飲精專業簽證的時候"},{"start":9718.47,"end":9719.47,"text":"把它納入了"},{"start":9719.47,"end":9721.47,"text":"這跟委員做進一步的說明"},{"start":9721.47,"end":9723.47,"text":"是因為情境是不一樣"},{"start":9723.47,"end":9726.47,"text":"是二級品管跟三級品管裡面的狀態"},{"start":9726.47,"end":9727.47,"text":"我們才"},{"start":9730.43,"end":9733.43,"text":"在簽證的地方我們其實都有"},{"start":9733.43,"end":9735.43,"text":"都讓他們再導入了"},{"start":9735.43,"end":9736.43,"text":"不是不是"},{"start":9736.43,"end":9739.43,"text":"這不管是食品其實也有工職的"},{"start":9739.43,"end":9740.43,"text":"工業是也有工職的"},{"start":9741.97,"end":9742.97,"text":"怎麼沒有"},{"start":9742.97,"end":9743.97,"text":"對有工職的"},{"start":9743.97,"end":9744.97,"text":"有啊"},{"start":9744.97,"end":9745.97,"text":"我今天根本就有頭"},{"start":9745.97,"end":9746.97,"text":"有他們有"},{"start":9748.12,"end":9750.12,"text":"工職就是公務人員了"},{"start":9750.12,"end":9751.12,"text":"是喔是喔"},{"start":9751.12,"end":9752.12,"text":"這個東西納入都沒有問題"},{"start":9752.12,"end":9755.12,"text":"他們本身的身分有這個食品安全計師的身分"},{"start":9755.12,"end":9758.12,"text":"但是我剛剛聽淑永講的好像不是這個樣子"},{"start":9758.12,"end":9761.12,"text":"你剛剛講的在第一項裡面"},{"start":9761.12,"end":9765.12,"text":"你的描述是說這個需要有"},{"start":9765.12,"end":9768.12,"text":"我們就是地方政府的這樣的一個"},{"start":9768.12,"end":9771.12,"text":"地方跟中央政府的介入的情況之下"},{"start":9771.12,"end":9773.12,"text":"好像公衛跟食品計師"},{"start":9773.12,"end":9777.12,"text":"你是把他秉儲公職的公衛跟食品計師"},{"start":9777.12,"end":9778.12,"text":"這不是"},{"start":9778.12,"end":9779.12,"text":"這不是"},{"start":9779.12,"end":9781.12,"text":"我就誤會了再澄清"},{"start":9782.42,"end":9787.42,"text":"執行我們41條第一項第一款裡面的現場的稽查等等的"},{"start":9787.42,"end":9791.42,"text":"這些我們原則上都是公務人員執行公務的"},{"start":9791.42,"end":9792.42,"text":"假如公務人員執行公務"},{"start":9792.42,"end":9794.42,"text":"他本身是有食品計師一樣的"},{"start":9794.42,"end":9796.42,"text":"當然都是都都在裡面的嘛"},{"start":9796.42,"end":9798.42,"text":"如果他沒有公務人員"},{"start":9798.42,"end":9800.42,"text":"沒有辦法執行公權力的"},{"start":9800.42,"end":9802.42,"text":"只有考到證照"},{"start":9802.56,"end":9804.56,"text":"他是沒有辦法執行這件事情的"},{"start":9804.92,"end":9809.92,"text":"所以大概是兩個方向大概是跟委員就進一步說明一下"},{"start":9810.98,"end":9814.98,"text":"簽證的部分是他們會請他們專業來導入"},{"start":9824.97,"end":9826.97,"text":"對"},{"start":9828.75,"end":9830.75,"text":"在簽證那邊我們會納入"},{"start":9830.75,"end":9832.75,"text":"簽證那邊是納入公衛師嘛"},{"start":9832.75,"end":9836.75,"text":"簽證的身份條件可以包含食品計師或公衛師"},{"start":9836.75,"end":9839.75,"text":"但是在現在我們在41條這邊講的是"},{"start":9839.75,"end":9841.75,"text":"他去執行就是包含"},{"start":9841.75,"end":9842.75,"text":"因為他這邊"},{"start":9842.75,"end":9844.75,"text":"我們可以參考原條文"},{"start":9844.75,"end":9846.75,"text":"我們這邊包含了他"},{"start":9846.75,"end":9849.75,"text":"要原條文這邊就是原條文這邊第一項"},{"start":9849.75,"end":9852.75,"text":"執行現實主管機關會確保食品"},{"start":9852.75,"end":9854.75,"text":"食品添加物食品器具食品容器或包裝"},{"start":9855.45,"end":9860.45,"text":"及食品用洗潔劑符合本法規定得執行下列措施"},{"start":9860.45,"end":9862.45,"text":"業者應配不得規避妨礙或拒絕"},{"start":9862.45,"end":9864.45,"text":"這裡面他的動作包含進入"},{"start":9864.45,"end":9868.45,"text":"製造加工調配包裝運送儲存販賣場所執行"},{"start":9868.45,"end":9870.45,"text":"現場查核及抽樣檢驗"},{"start":9870.45,"end":9872.45,"text":"第二"},{"start":9872.22,"end":9875.22,"text":"為錢款這個查核或抽樣檢驗時"},{"start":9875.22,"end":9878.22,"text":"得要求錢款場所這食品業者提供原料"},{"start":9878.22,"end":9882.22,"text":"或產品之來源及數量作業品保販賣對象金額"},{"start":9882.22,"end":9884.22,"text":"其他佐證資料證明或記錄"},{"start":9884.22,"end":9886.22,"text":"所以就是剛剛署長說的"},{"start":9886.22,"end":9889.22,"text":"這個行為是由縣市政府的"},{"start":9889.75,"end":9891.75,"text":"公務員去執行這個業務"},{"start":9891.75,"end":9893.75,"text":"那委員所關心的公衛師這邊"},{"start":9893.75,"end":9895.75,"text":"我們應該是在前面的法條有寫到"},{"start":9895.75,"end":9900.75,"text":"就是在這個應該在第七條那一邊"},{"start":9900.75,"end":9903.75,"text":"進入到我們講的這個"},{"start":9904.98,"end":9906.98,"text":"食品記憶我們那個簽證那一塊"},{"start":9906.98,"end":9908.98,"text":"簽證那一塊有納入公衛師"},{"start":9908.98,"end":9910.98,"text":"所以這個部分特別提"},{"start":9910.98,"end":9913.98,"text":"如果是公務衛生師他們有興趣在"},{"start":9913.98,"end":9915.98,"text":"衛生行政考衛生行政"},{"start":9915.98,"end":9917.98,"text":"就填來食藥署我們就進來了"},{"start":9919.98,"end":9922.98,"text":"對對所以他們三個都是食品機師我們主任"},{"start":9922.98,"end":9926.98,"text":"所以他也是有興趣在公務機關裡面"},{"start":9926.98,"end":9930.98,"text":"任職那經過公務人員的任免考試進來"},{"start":9930.98,"end":9932.98,"text":"所以我們並沒有特別排除任何一個"},{"start":9932.98,"end":9937.98,"text":"符合我們的相關資格的考選人員"},{"start":9937.98,"end":9940.98,"text":"所以這個部分那至於特別對簽證的部分"},{"start":9940.98,"end":9942.98,"text":"我們是在二級評管的時候"},{"start":9942.98,"end":9944.98,"text":"我們就在第七條七之一裡面"},{"start":9944.98,"end":9946.98,"text":"特別把它列進去了"},{"start":9946.98,"end":9950.98,"text":"市長這個這個我請市長跟署長看一下"},{"start":9950.98,"end":9952.98,"text":"我的我的條文的草案"},{"start":9952.98,"end":9954.98,"text":"在第一款裡面我要導入這個"},{"start":9954.98,"end":9956.98,"text":"得由公共衛生師協助辦理"},{"start":9956.98,"end":9960.98,"text":"那第二款是導入食品機師來做查爾簽證"},{"start":9962.23,"end":9964.23,"text":"公務醫師公職的公務醫師"},{"start":9964.23,"end":9967.23,"text":"你們要不要用事你們再決定"},{"start":9967.23,"end":9971.23,"text":"我們現在可以很清楚的跟委員講"},{"start":9971.23,"end":9973.23,"text":"你真正具有公職的公務醫師"},{"start":9973.23,"end":9975.23,"text":"現在才幾位"},{"start":9975.18,"end":9978.18,"text":"你的手指頭又算不完"},{"start":9979.04,"end":9981.04,"text":"因為公務醫師的考試"},{"start":9981.04,"end":9984.04,"text":"我覺得這剛好是這兩年才通過"},{"start":9984.04,"end":9987.04,"text":"所以我們在這變成數內對"},{"start":9987.04,"end":9988.04,"text":"考過已經一堆了"},{"start":9988.04,"end":9989.04,"text":"但是你們要把公務醫師"},{"start":9989.04,"end":9991.04,"text":"鬧到到公職的公務醫師的比例"},{"start":9991.04,"end":9993.04,"text":"是非常非常低啦"},{"start":9993.04,"end":9995.04,"text":"這是現狀這是現狀"},{"start":9995.04,"end":9996.04,"text":"你們要不要用嗎"},{"start":9998.92,"end":9999.92,"text":"這是一件事情啦"},{"start":9999.92,"end":10001.92,"text":"你把我放到七之一"},{"start":10001.92,"end":10003.92,"text":"跟現在我把這個放在"},{"start":10003.92,"end":10005.92,"text":"四一條的第一款第二款"},{"start":10005.92,"end":10007.92,"text":"我覺得這個有什麼樣的一個衝突"},{"start":10007.92,"end":10009.92,"text":"還是在來一行還是說"},{"start":10009.92,"end":10010.92,"text":"你們認為你們七之一"},{"start":10010.92,"end":10013.92,"text":"跟我現在的四一條的第一款第二款"},{"start":10013.92,"end":10015.92,"text":"把導入公衛師的協助"},{"start":10015.92,"end":10017.92,"text":"跟這個食品機師的查爾簽證"},{"start":10017.92,"end":10019.92,"text":"有什麼樣的一個"},{"start":10020.64,"end":10022.64,"text":"什麼樣的自然型還是怎麼樣"},{"start":10022.64,"end":10024.64,"text":"還是你們的比較好我們比較不好"},{"start":10027.49,"end":10028.49,"text":"還是有什麼樣層次上的落差"},{"start":10028.49,"end":10029.49,"text":"你可以明講嗎"},{"start":10030.39,"end":10033.39,"text":"那你是講說要考公務醫師"},{"start":10033.39,"end":10035.39,"text":"他對這個有興趣可以去考"},{"start":10035.39,"end":10036.39,"text":"考到的你不一定會用啊"},{"start":10037.51,"end":10039.51,"text":"因為之前在處理"},{"start":10039.51,"end":10040.51,"text":"沒有沒有沒有"},{"start":10040.51,"end":10042.51,"text":"如果是公務員的身份我沒有不用啊"},{"start":10042.51,"end":10043.51,"text":"不是不是"},{"start":10043.51,"end":10045.51,"text":"不是我以為他如果是公務員的身份"},{"start":10045.51,"end":10047.51,"text":"在這一個四十一條"},{"start":10047.51,"end":10048.51,"text":"他依照"},{"start":10048.51,"end":10050.51,"text":"我們之前處理過公職的公衛師"},{"start":10050.51,"end":10052.51,"text":"坦白講有爆出"},{"start":10052.51,"end":10054.51,"text":"我們各機關有爆出需求的"},{"start":10054.51,"end":10057.51,"text":"那個比例低到不行啦"},{"start":10058.37,"end":10060.37,"text":"低到不行"},{"start":10061.31,"end":10063.31,"text":"這是事實啊"},{"start":10063.31,"end":10065.31,"text":"這我們都有去聊過"},{"start":10065.31,"end":10067.31,"text":"我們之後再釐清一下就是說這邊"},{"start":10067.31,"end":10069.31,"text":"我們現在擔心的事情是"},{"start":10069.31,"end":10071.31,"text":"我們現在要求的這邊的"},{"start":10071.31,"end":10073.31,"text":"就是說去相關的查核"},{"start":10073.31,"end":10075.31,"text":"跟抽樣的這個行為我們"},{"start":10075.31,"end":10077.31,"text":"剛剛提到他是一個"},{"start":10077.31,"end":10079.31,"text":"就是說他必須要是以執法權限"},{"start":10079.31,"end":10081.31,"text":"來做處理啦"},{"start":10081.31,"end":10083.31,"text":"我提供一個訊息"},{"start":10083.31,"end":10085.31,"text":"就剛剛從署長所講的公衛師是這一兩年嘛"},{"start":10085.31,"end":10087.31,"text":"對不對"},{"start":10087.31,"end":10089.31,"text":"事實上我們衛福部面對公衛師"},{"start":10089.31,"end":10091.31,"text":"面對食品祭司"},{"start":10090.84,"end":10092.84,"text":"坦白講我們都沒有在用了"},{"start":10095.31,"end":10097.31,"text":"我們就是沒有在用了"},{"start":10097.74,"end":10099.74,"text":"這是實際的狀況"},{"start":10100.73,"end":10102.73,"text":"對"},{"start":10103.63,"end":10105.63,"text":"對"},{"start":10106.82,"end":10108.82,"text":"包括柳委員"},{"start":10108.82,"end":10110.82,"text":"就是您的提案裡面"},{"start":10110.82,"end":10112.82,"text":"是針對公衛師的角色"},{"start":10112.82,"end":10114.82,"text":"在這個地方政府"},{"start":10114.82,"end":10116.82,"text":"能不能夠有更明確"},{"start":10116.82,"end":10118.82,"text":"來協助"},{"start":10118.82,"end":10120.82,"text":"整個食安的把關"},{"start":10120.82,"end":10122.82,"text":"因為四十一條"},{"start":10122.82,"end":10124.82,"text":"其實還有各個不同的面向"},{"start":10124.82,"end":10126.82,"text":"剛剛也經過蠻多的討論"},{"start":10126.82,"end":10128.82,"text":"內容還需要有更完整的"},{"start":10128.82,"end":10130.82,"text":"帕書"},{"start":10130.82,"end":10132.82,"text":"所以我們是不是這一條先行保留"},{"start":10132.82,"end":10134.82,"text":"到時候也麻煩主管機關再跟柳委員"},{"start":10134.82,"end":10136.82,"text":"來做後續處理的"},{"start":10136.82,"end":10138.82,"text":"這些內容的參考"},{"start":10138.82,"end":10140.82,"text":"OK啦"},{"start":10140.82,"end":10142.82,"text":"但是我實際想說因為我們整個的"},{"start":10142.82,"end":10144.82,"text":"這個稽查的人力"},{"start":10144.82,"end":10146.82,"text":"坦白講就是不足嘛"},{"start":10146.82,"end":10148.82,"text":"不足我們有公衛師"},{"start":10148.82,"end":10150.82,"text":"我們有食品祭司"},{"start":10150.82,"end":10152.82,"text":"要不要趁這個機會你去擴大你的查驗能力"},{"start":10152.82,"end":10154.82,"text":"然後至於要怎麼去做"},{"start":10154.82,"end":10156.82,"text":"這樣的一個處理安排"},{"start":10156.82,"end":10158.82,"text":"我覺得這個是可以讓大家來討論的啦"},{"start":10158.82,"end":10160.82,"text":"但是說"},{"start":10160.82,"end":10162.82,"text":"剛剛署長是回答我說"},{"start":10162.82,"end":10164.82,"text":"就去考啊就去考啊"},{"start":10164.82,"end":10166.82,"text":"我就用了"},{"start":10166.82,"end":10168.82,"text":"講很簡單的啦"},{"start":10167.8,"end":10169.8,"text":"某人經報馬上許下承諾啊"},{"start":10169.8,"end":10171.8,"text":"白紙黑字啊"},{"start":10171.16,"end":10173.16,"text":"你要用幾個"},{"start":10173.41,"end":10175.41,"text":"我們這41條這邊"},{"start":10175.41,"end":10177.41,"text":"其實這一條主要精神"},{"start":10177.41,"end":10179.41,"text":"也是希望這次在釐清中央跟地方"},{"start":10179.41,"end":10181.41,"text":"的這個稽查啦"},{"start":10181.41,"end":10183.41,"text":"所以委員現在講的是地方的公衛師"},{"start":10183.41,"end":10185.41,"text":"不足還是中央的公衛師不足"},{"start":10185.41,"end":10187.41,"text":"我都不足"},{"start":10187.41,"end":10189.41,"text":"因為這條主要"},{"start":10189.41,"end":10191.41,"text":"因為這邊這一條第三項我們這樣起來"},{"start":10191.41,"end":10193.41,"text":"主要類型查核是地方衛生局"},{"start":10193.41,"end":10195.41,"text":"我剛剛開座名義就講嘛"},{"start":10195.41,"end":10197.41,"text":"我們整體國家的這個"},{"start":10197.41,"end":10199.41,"text":"這個查驗的人力扣掉"},{"start":10199.41,"end":10201.41,"text":"邊境的全國"},{"start":10201.41,"end":10203.41,"text":"中央跟地方就是560幾位而已啦"},{"start":10204.52,"end":10206.52,"text":"對 這邊提我大概了解啦"},{"start":10206.52,"end":10208.52,"text":"整體要"},{"start":10208.52,"end":10210.52,"text":"整個中央地方整個查驗人力的話"},{"start":10210.52,"end":10212.52,"text":"就是整個的國家原額要給我們"},{"start":10212.52,"end":10214.52,"text":"有原額給我們"},{"start":10214.52,"end":10216.52,"text":"才公衛師就會"},{"start":10216.52,"end":10218.52,"text":"所以請委員支持我們能夠增加我們"},{"start":10218.52,"end":10220.52,"text":"公衛師的原額"},{"start":10220.52,"end":10222.52,"text":"實名技師的原額在查驗上面"},{"start":10222.52,"end":10224.52,"text":"有原額我們一定開的"},{"start":10224.52,"end":10226.52,"text":"問題我沒有原額我就"},{"start":10226.16,"end":10228.16,"text":"開不出來"},{"start":10228.16,"end":10230.16,"text":"所以我現在想要在這裡面"},{"start":10230.16,"end":10232.16,"text":"納入這個跟"},{"start":10232.16,"end":10234.16,"text":"我們的原額其實是"},{"start":10234.16,"end":10236.16,"text":"是不一樣的一件事情"},{"start":10236.16,"end":10238.16,"text":"可不可以從後續跟委員這邊"},{"start":10238.16,"end":10240.16,"text":"再進一步再去討論一下"},{"start":10240.16,"end":10242.16,"text":"因為是另外的一個處理才對"},{"start":10242.16,"end":10244.16,"text":"如果我們沒有去突破這個原額"},{"start":10244.16,"end":10246.16,"text":"基本上修這個法你的人力就是"},{"start":10246.16,"end":10248.16,"text":"局限在這個地方嘛"},{"start":10248.16,"end":10250.16,"text":"所以誰去考到公衛"},{"start":10250.16,"end":10252.16,"text":"誰去考到公衛的實名技師"},{"start":10252.16,"end":10254.16,"text":"也無濟於事啊"},{"start":10253.17,"end":10255.17,"text":"因為就不增加"},{"start":10255.39,"end":10257.39,"text":"你就不增加"},{"start":10257.14,"end":10259.14,"text":"你面對47萬的實名業者"},{"start":10259.14,"end":10261.14,"text":"你的人力比例就是一定這樣"},{"start":10262.64,"end":10264.64,"text":"我的意思是這樣啦"},{"start":10264.64,"end":10266.64,"text":"應該大家聽我的意思對不對"},{"start":10266.64,"end":10268.64,"text":"我聽完可以下幾家就改變"},{"start":10268.64,"end":10270.64,"text":"所以你不能說我去考了"},{"start":10270.64,"end":10272.64,"text":"再說我沒用了你也沒用了"},{"start":10273.37,"end":10275.37,"text":"我們都了解劉委員是希望讓這個"},{"start":10275.37,"end":10277.37,"text":"未來視頻的安全"},{"start":10277.37,"end":10279.37,"text":"有更多的專業人員可以來協助把關嘛"},{"start":10279.37,"end":10281.37,"text":"好我們再請林書問委員發言"},{"start":10286.32,"end":10289.32,"text":"好各位我要表示我個人的意見"},{"start":10289.32,"end":10291.32,"text":"就是說公衛師、實名技師"},{"start":10291.32,"end":10293.32,"text":"這是一個問題沒有錯啦"},{"start":10293.32,"end":10295.32,"text":"但是如果實名技師"},{"start":10295.32,"end":10297.32,"text":"和公衛師"},{"start":10297.32,"end":10299.32,"text":"他是受雇於誰"},{"start":10299.32,"end":10301.32,"text":"這更重要"},{"start":10301.32,"end":10303.32,"text":"受雇於誰"},{"start":10303.32,"end":10305.32,"text":"那我們這一個條文"},{"start":10305.32,"end":10307.32,"text":"把地方主管機關得執行"},{"start":10307.32,"end":10309.32,"text":"改為應執行"},{"start":10309.32,"end":10311.32,"text":"方向上是"},{"start":10311.32,"end":10313.32,"text":"比較明確沒有錯"},{"start":10313.32,"end":10315.32,"text":"但稽查的次數不是重點"},{"start":10315.32,"end":10317.32,"text":"查核的品質才是實案的防線"},{"start":10317.32,"end":10319.32,"text":"我要講說"},{"start":10319.32,"end":10321.32,"text":"地方查核不能只有看"},{"start":10321.32,"end":10323.32,"text":"有沒有食品安全監測的計畫"},{"start":10323.32,"end":10325.32,"text":"有沒有HACCP的文件"},{"start":10325.32,"end":10327.32,"text":"檢驗的報告"},{"start":10327.32,"end":10329.32,"text":"而是要查這個文件"},{"start":10329.32,"end":10331.32,"text":"是否真的對應現場"},{"start":10331.32,"end":10333.32,"text":"因為中聯有指的這個狀況"},{"start":10333.32,"end":10335.32,"text":"就是他們都HACCP"},{"start":10335.32,"end":10337.32,"text":"然後去對應現場"},{"start":10337.32,"end":10339.32,"text":"事實上那個整個數據"},{"start":10339.32,"end":10341.32,"text":"到以前曾經有過的一次專案"},{"start":10341.32,"end":10343.32,"text":"就已經是對應現場"},{"start":10343.32,"end":10345.32,"text":"以前曾經有過的一次專案檢查"},{"start":10345.32,"end":10347.32,"text":"對應現場那個數據"},{"start":10347.32,"end":10349.32,"text":"看起來就是大家都發現"},{"start":10349.32,"end":10351.32,"text":"根本都沒有符合現場的狀況"},{"start":10353.32,"end":10355.32,"text":"紙上的文件跟現場都不符合"},{"start":10357.32,"end":10359.32,"text":"然後檢驗報告"},{"start":10359.32,"end":10361.32,"text":"這一些都有沒有落實"},{"start":10361.32,"end":10363.32,"text":"都不知道"},{"start":10363.32,"end":10365.32,"text":"然後要查文件中是否對應現場才是重點"},{"start":10365.32,"end":10367.32,"text":"那中聯這個案子暴露的重點"},{"start":10367.32,"end":10369.32,"text":"還包括他的BAP"},{"start":10369.32,"end":10371.32,"text":"沒有納入化學危害"},{"start":10371.32,"end":10373.32,"text":"然後原料驗收的基準放寬"},{"start":10373.32,"end":10375.32,"text":"然後原料驗收的基準放寬"},{"start":10375.32,"end":10377.32,"text":"製程的參數多次偏離"},{"start":10377.32,"end":10379.32,"text":"矯正的措施沒有真正消除異常"},{"start":10379.32,"end":10381.32,"text":"矯正的措施沒有真正消除異常"},{"start":10381.32,"end":10383.32,"text":"採樣的代表性不足"},{"start":10383.32,"end":10385.32,"text":"這個本來都是HACCP制度運作下來"},{"start":10385.32,"end":10387.32,"text":"這個本來都是HACCP制度運作下來"},{"start":10387.32,"end":10389.32,"text":"應該要處理的"},{"start":10389.32,"end":10391.32,"text":"可是從中聯有指來看"},{"start":10391.32,"end":10393.32,"text":"可是從中聯有指來看"},{"start":10393.32,"end":10395.32,"text":"天啊!你的HACCP就是了備一格"},{"start":10395.32,"end":10397.32,"text":"你的HACCP的整個程序"},{"start":10397.32,"end":10399.32,"text":"檢驗的地方政府去看"},{"start":10399.32,"end":10401.32,"text":"檢驗的地方政府去看"},{"start":10402.6,"end":10404.6,"text":"根本的"},{"start":10404.63,"end":10406.63,"text":"有看到沒看,你知道嗎?"},{"start":10406.63,"end":10408.63,"text":"地方政府去啦"},{"start":10408.63,"end":10410.63,"text":"有看到沒看"},{"start":10410.63,"end":10412.63,"text":"有什麼意義?"},{"start":10412.63,"end":10414.63,"text":"所以這些都變成"},{"start":10414.63,"end":10416.63,"text":"地方查核的重點項目"},{"start":10416.63,"end":10418.63,"text":"可是"},{"start":10418.23,"end":10420.23,"text":"地方政府去看的人到底是看什麼啦?"},{"start":10420.23,"end":10422.23,"text":"地方政府去看的人到底是看什麼啦?"},{"start":10422.47,"end":10424.47,"text":"我們真的"},{"start":10424.47,"end":10426.47,"text":"有時候屠法不足以自行"},{"start":10426.47,"end":10428.47,"text":"那執行面出問題的時候"},{"start":10428.47,"end":10430.47,"text":"我們是不是需要"},{"start":10430.47,"end":10432.47,"text":"法治面要直接更明確"},{"start":10432.47,"end":10434.47,"text":"要怎麼樣更明確"},{"start":10435.85,"end":10437.85,"text":"因為你說"},{"start":10437.85,"end":10439.85,"text":"你就是要去查核"},{"start":10439.85,"end":10441.85,"text":"你不得拒絕"},{"start":10441.85,"end":10443.85,"text":"不得規避、妨礙"},{"start":10443.85,"end":10445.85,"text":"要查核"},{"start":10445.85,"end":10447.85,"text":"不可以事先通知"},{"start":10446.99,"end":10448.99,"text":"然後他就去看現場"},{"start":10448.99,"end":10450.99,"text":"現場要看什麼?"},{"start":10450.99,"end":10452.99,"text":"你的行政部門的指引要不要定得更明確?"},{"start":10452.99,"end":10454.99,"text":"你的步驟是不是要更那個"},{"start":10454.99,"end":10456.99,"text":"繼續迷你還會掛我NOE勒?"},{"start":10456.99,"end":10458.99,"text":"你的HACCP制度運作下來"},{"start":10458.99,"end":10460.99,"text":"你的HACCP制度運作下來"},{"start":10460.99,"end":10462.99,"text":"你從終點油紙來看就知道破功了"},{"start":10462.99,"end":10464.99,"text":"你從終點油紙來看就知道破功了"},{"start":10465.89,"end":10467.89,"text":"HACCP制度是"},{"start":10467.89,"end":10469.89,"text":"大型大規模"},{"start":10469.89,"end":10471.89,"text":"3000萬以上的這種"},{"start":10471.89,"end":10473.89,"text":"食品廠可能都是勒"},{"start":10473.89,"end":10475.89,"text":"可是你連這種大規模的"},{"start":10475.89,"end":10477.89,"text":"油紙廠你進去查"},{"start":10477.89,"end":10479.89,"text":"你"},{"start":10479.89,"end":10481.89,"text":"他那個HACCP"},{"start":10481.89,"end":10483.89,"text":"沒有把我剛剛講的通通都"},{"start":10483.89,"end":10485.89,"text":"管制起來"},{"start":10485.89,"end":10487.89,"text":"那你這個HACCP到底是什麼?"},{"start":10488.72,"end":10490.72,"text":"我們法律規定要HACCP"},{"start":10490.72,"end":10492.72,"text":"我們的條文你放進去啦"},{"start":10493.54,"end":10495.54,"text":"可是沒有執行勒"},{"start":10495.54,"end":10497.54,"text":"然後我再講地方主管機關"},{"start":10497.54,"end":10499.54,"text":"應該要有能查閱"},{"start":10499.54,"end":10501.54,"text":"還有交叉比對原料來源"},{"start":10501.54,"end":10503.54,"text":"有嗎?"},{"start":10503.54,"end":10505.54,"text":"要交叉比對原料來源"},{"start":10505.54,"end":10507.54,"text":"傳的批次統潮"},{"start":10507.54,"end":10509.54,"text":"製程的記錄"},{"start":10509.54,"end":10511.54,"text":"COA自主檢驗"},{"start":10511.54,"end":10513.54,"text":"委外檢驗出貨記錄"},{"start":10513.54,"end":10515.54,"text":"客訴及異常處理單"},{"start":10516.29,"end":10518.29,"text":"那如果你是查文件是否齊備"},{"start":10518.29,"end":10520.29,"text":"不查資料之間"},{"start":10520.29,"end":10522.29,"text":"有沒有出問題"},{"start":10522.29,"end":10524.29,"text":"所以才會有中聯油紙事件嘛"},{"start":10524.29,"end":10526.29,"text":"你就發現這些"},{"start":10526.29,"end":10528.29,"text":"HACCP就是紙上作文"},{"start":10528.29,"end":10530.29,"text":"跟立法院很多"},{"start":10531.31,"end":10533.31,"text":"憑藉而不是一樣"},{"start":10533.25,"end":10535.25,"text":"立委辦公室坐一坐然後交給他們去評"},{"start":10537.55,"end":10539.55,"text":"到底是憑什麼"},{"start":10539.55,"end":10541.55,"text":"不要講立法院的評鑑"},{"start":10541.55,"end":10543.55,"text":"醫院的評鑑人家也講這樣子"},{"start":10543.55,"end":10545.55,"text":"教師的評鑑也是講這樣子"},{"start":10545.55,"end":10547.55,"text":"大家都比賽作文比賽"},{"start":10548.91,"end":10550.91,"text":"所以去查到底要查什麼啦"},{"start":10551.86,"end":10553.86,"text":"真的是你說規定了都放進去了"},{"start":10553.86,"end":10555.86,"text":"可是呢"},{"start":10556.2,"end":10558.2,"text":"當BNB發生的時候才發現"},{"start":10558.2,"end":10560.2,"text":"蛤"},{"start":10560.05,"end":10562.05,"text":"根本都沒有在執行"},{"start":10562.97,"end":10564.97,"text":"那再來就是說"},{"start":10564.97,"end":10566.97,"text":"中央就重大或突發性的"},{"start":10566.97,"end":10568.97,"text":"這一個"},{"start":10568.97,"end":10570.97,"text":"或其他食品衛生安全風險的事件"},{"start":10570.97,"end":10572.97,"text":"得介入"},{"start":10572.65,"end":10574.65,"text":"雖然文正讓他比較有彈性"},{"start":10574.65,"end":10576.65,"text":"但是你也是應該要明確"},{"start":10576.65,"end":10578.65,"text":"明確中央介入的條件"},{"start":10578.65,"end":10580.65,"text":"還有地方配合的義務"},{"start":10580.65,"end":10582.65,"text":"要怎麼樣規範"},{"start":10582.65,"end":10584.65,"text":"尤其是食安的問題"},{"start":10584.65,"end":10586.65,"text":"已經是很多都是"},{"start":10588.4,"end":10590.4,"text":"跨縣市的"},{"start":10590.4,"end":10592.4,"text":"跨縣市的在流向"},{"start":10592.4,"end":10594.4,"text":"他的撲貨啦"},{"start":10594.4,"end":10596.4,"text":"他的生產"},{"start":10596.4,"end":10598.4,"text":"他的平台他的供應鏈"},{"start":10598.4,"end":10600.4,"text":"共同的投資的原料的平台"},{"start":10600.4,"end":10602.4,"text":"大型供應鏈的事件"},{"start":10603.62,"end":10605.62,"text":"這個中央也是需要"},{"start":10605.62,"end":10607.62,"text":"應該要主動整合資訊"},{"start":10607.62,"end":10609.62,"text":"而不是在那裡被動的等"},{"start":10609.62,"end":10611.62,"text":"地方稽查回報啦"},{"start":10611.62,"end":10613.62,"text":"所以其實是"},{"start":10613.62,"end":10615.62,"text":"我覺得很多健行的程序"},{"start":10615.62,"end":10617.62,"text":"規範的細節"},{"start":10617.47,"end":10619.47,"text":"這個我們這個母法這樣寫"},{"start":10619.47,"end":10621.47,"text":"好像沒有把這個精神放進去的話"},{"start":10622.72,"end":10624.72,"text":"有可能"},{"start":10624.19,"end":10626.19,"text":"還會有很多"},{"start":10626.19,"end":10628.19,"text":"我們想像不到的狀況會發生"},{"start":10628.19,"end":10630.19,"text":"最後我想說這個修法後"},{"start":10630.19,"end":10632.19,"text":"包括我們現在就應該要"},{"start":10632.19,"end":10634.19,"text":"要求就要明定"},{"start":10634.19,"end":10636.19,"text":"中央要訂定風險分級的"},{"start":10636.19,"end":10638.19,"text":"查核指引"},{"start":10638.19,"end":10640.19,"text":"而且要建立追蹤的複查機制"},{"start":10640.19,"end":10642.19,"text":"查到重大缺失時"},{"start":10642.65,"end":10644.65,"text":"大家現在說"},{"start":10644.65,"end":10646.65,"text":"限期改善"},{"start":10646.65,"end":10648.65,"text":"最後限期改善給你看了"},{"start":10648.65,"end":10650.65,"text":"看完以後就依然顧我"},{"start":10650.65,"end":10652.65,"text":"所以我們確認"},{"start":10652.65,"end":10654.65,"text":"他改善措施"},{"start":10654.65,"end":10656.65,"text":"是不是真的能夠確實的"},{"start":10656.65,"end":10658.65,"text":"讓製程回到可控的狀態"},{"start":10658.65,"end":10660.65,"text":"這個很重要"},{"start":10660.65,"end":10662.65,"text":"那其實我個人最後一點"},{"start":10662.65,"end":10664.65,"text":"是我個人覺得"},{"start":10664.65,"end":10666.65,"text":"我一直在主張說"},{"start":10666.65,"end":10668.65,"text":"基本上都還是在"},{"start":10667.76,"end":10669.76,"text":"自律的範疇啦"},{"start":10670.21,"end":10672.21,"text":"除了地方去臨檢"},{"start":10672.21,"end":10674.21,"text":"講的具體一點是一個他律"},{"start":10674.21,"end":10676.21,"text":"可是我們為什麼不明定"},{"start":10676.21,"end":10678.21,"text":"我們為什麼不在這裡處理一個就是說"},{"start":10678.21,"end":10680.21,"text":"資訊公開啊"},{"start":10680.21,"end":10682.21,"text":"公開透明全民一起監督啊"},{"start":10684.42,"end":10686.42,"text":"你把HACCP"},{"start":10686.42,"end":10688.42,"text":"長的就好了不一定要每個"},{"start":10688.42,"end":10690.42,"text":"食品廠那你"},{"start":10690.42,"end":10692.42,"text":"風險很大的就"},{"start":10692.42,"end":10694.42,"text":"全國寡占市場的"},{"start":10694.42,"end":10696.42,"text":"比如說以油脂為例四斤而已"},{"start":10696.42,"end":10698.42,"text":"全國的油都吃這四斤"},{"start":10699.91,"end":10703.91,"text":"這四斤你叫他把他的HACCP"},{"start":10703.91,"end":10707.91,"text":"他的管制點設定是什麼"},{"start":10707.91,"end":10709.91,"text":"那他的驗收的那個"},{"start":10709.91,"end":10711.91,"text":"檢驗數據是什麼"},{"start":10711.91,"end":10713.91,"text":"然後參數通通都上網公開"},{"start":10715.01,"end":10717.01,"text":"我們幫你看"},{"start":10717.01,"end":10719.01,"text":"你這個參數好像比你凌戒指"},{"start":10719.01,"end":10721.01,"text":"你這個巴西的原料跟美國原料比較起來"},{"start":10721.01,"end":10723.01,"text":"好像是什麼樣怎麼樣"},{"start":10726.28,"end":10728.28,"text":"都不用你政府去查核我們大家一起看"},{"start":10729.73,"end":10731.73,"text":"但是也曾經也有人會做假啦"},{"start":10731.73,"end":10735.73,"text":"這種網上看上有政策下有對策"},{"start":10735.73,"end":10737.73,"text":"道高一尺魔高一丈啊"},{"start":10737.73,"end":10739.73,"text":"以前台塑六輕"},{"start":10739.73,"end":10741.73,"text":"那個SIMS"},{"start":10741.73,"end":10743.73,"text":"二十四小時連續監測系統"},{"start":10743.73,"end":10745.73,"text":"他那個排放"},{"start":10746.11,"end":10748.11,"text":"結果數據造假"},{"start":10748.11,"end":10750.11,"text":"造假也是被人家"},{"start":10751.16,"end":10753.16,"text":"抓出來"},{"start":10753.16,"end":10755.16,"text":"所以我們是不是也應該要有公開透明的資訊"},{"start":10755.16,"end":10757.16,"text":"因為我們大家一直在講"},{"start":10757.16,"end":10759.16,"text":"中聯油脂事件"},{"start":10759.16,"end":10761.16,"text":"那我們通電視通通在講"},{"start":10761.16,"end":10763.16,"text":"不能自律啦要改成他律啦"},{"start":10763.16,"end":10765.16,"text":"不是業者自主管理要改成他律啦"},{"start":10766.78,"end":10768.78,"text":"那你怎麼個他律"},{"start":10768.78,"end":10770.78,"text":"增加一個食品計師"},{"start":10770.78,"end":10772.78,"text":"簽證就他律了嗎"},{"start":10772.78,"end":10774.78,"text":"食品計師誰付的薪水"},{"start":10775.58,"end":10777.58,"text":"如果是業者付的食品計師的薪水"},{"start":10777.58,"end":10779.58,"text":"淋漓業者的薪水"},{"start":10779.58,"end":10781.58,"text":"我會給你寫得嚴重嗎"},{"start":10781.58,"end":10783.58,"text":"我怎麼嚴格監督啦"},{"start":10785.16,"end":10787.16,"text":"所以我們在講說他律的基礎"},{"start":10787.16,"end":10789.16,"text":"就資訊公開透明"},{"start":10789.16,"end":10791.16,"text":"也不是每一個我就講"},{"start":10791.16,"end":10793.16,"text":"就分級管理風險"},{"start":10793.16,"end":10795.16,"text":"很大的寡占市場的"},{"start":10797.07,"end":10799.07,"text":"我覺得大家都沒有回應到這一點"},{"start":10799.07,"end":10804.07,"text":"從中聯油脂事件的質詢到這個修法案"},{"start":10804.07,"end":10806.07,"text":"從頭到尾我都只是講這件"},{"start":10806.07,"end":10808.07,"text":"如何他律"},{"start":10808.07,"end":10810.07,"text":"在十二年法修法的時候"},{"start":10810.07,"end":10813.07,"text":"把這個他律的機制放進來法案裡面"},{"start":10814.59,"end":10816.59,"text":"大家都沒有人講"},{"start":10818.17,"end":10820.17,"text":"行政部也要表態"},{"start":10820.17,"end":10821.17,"text":"這到底要怎麼寫給"},{"start":10821.17,"end":10823.17,"text":"你們要想一下"},{"start":10823.17,"end":10824.17,"text":"你們如果想不到"},{"start":10824.17,"end":10825.17,"text":"我就跟你說要求這樣子"},{"start":10825.17,"end":10827.17,"text":"我要求的"},{"start":10827.17,"end":10829.17,"text":"HACCP場的都是大廠"},{"start":10829.17,"end":10831.17,"text":"只要是HACCP場的"},{"start":10831.17,"end":10834.17,"text":"你的所有的危害管制點"},{"start":10834.17,"end":10836.17,"text":"你的檢驗數據等等"},{"start":10836.17,"end":10838.17,"text":"通通都上網公開"},{"start":10838.17,"end":10840.17,"text":"大家沒有人反對"},{"start":10840.17,"end":10842.17,"text":"我們就把它當作是立法院"},{"start":10842.17,"end":10844.17,"text":"我們今天委員會審查的共識"},{"start":10844.17,"end":10846.17,"text":"叫他們回去朝你朝案"},{"start":10847.58,"end":10849.58,"text":"下一次拿上來"},{"start":10849.64,"end":10851.64,"text":"我個人是這樣子堅持"},{"start":10851.64,"end":10853.64,"text":"請問各位同仁"},{"start":10853.64,"end":10854.64,"text":"有沒有其他意見"},{"start":10854.64,"end":10856.64,"text":"沒有就是我們的共識"},{"start":10856.64,"end":10858.64,"text":"從自律改成他律"},{"start":10858.64,"end":10859.64,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":10859.78,"end":10860.78,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":10860.78,"end":10863.78,"text":"所以仔細看起來41之1"},{"start":10863.78,"end":10865.78,"text":"好像很多很分歧"},{"start":10865.78,"end":10867.78,"text":"是不是就保留"},{"start":10867.78,"end":10868.78,"text":"不過我們還是先請"},{"start":10868.78,"end":10870.78,"text":"衛福部先做個初步回應"},{"start":10874.67,"end":10876.67,"text":"首先謝謝委員的指教"},{"start":10876.67,"end":10879.67,"text":"我們針對第41條"},{"start":10879.67,"end":10881.67,"text":"我們的第一項其實"},{"start":10881.67,"end":10883.67,"text":"特別剛才委員特別提到"},{"start":10883.67,"end":10889.67,"text":"自主的第一級的評管裡面的自律"},{"start":10889.67,"end":10891.67,"text":"所謂自主檢驗的公共化"},{"start":10891.67,"end":10893.67,"text":"自律的公共化的概念"},{"start":10893.67,"end":10895.67,"text":"上次委員有特別提到"},{"start":10895.67,"end":10897.67,"text":"那我們對於HACCP裡面"},{"start":10897.67,"end":10900.67,"text":"原先的得執行下列措施的部分"},{"start":10900.67,"end":10902.67,"text":"我們其實做了修正"},{"start":10902.67,"end":10903.67,"text":"不管在行政院版"},{"start":10903.67,"end":10905.67,"text":"以及委員的版本裡面"},{"start":10905.67,"end":10907.67,"text":"我們把它修正成"},{"start":10907.67,"end":10910.67,"text":"因辦理下列措施"},{"start":10910.67,"end":10912.67,"text":"然後業者因配合"},{"start":10912.67,"end":10915.67,"text":"不得規避妨害或拒絕"},{"start":10915.67,"end":10917.67,"text":"所以這裡面就會有因"},{"start":10917.67,"end":10920.67,"text":"因裡面我們再搭配我們"},{"start":10920.67,"end":10923.67,"text":"在先前在第7條的部分"},{"start":10923.67,"end":10926.67,"text":"對於食品安全監測的計畫"},{"start":10926.67,"end":10928.67,"text":"也有因經專業的簽證"},{"start":10928.67,"end":10930.67,"text":"我想因經專業簽證裡面"},{"start":10930.67,"end":10932.67,"text":"簽證的內涵內容其實在"},{"start":10932.67,"end":10935.67,"text":"後續我們的食品業者查驗的"},{"start":10935.67,"end":10938.67,"text":"相關的實施措施的辦法裡面"},{"start":10938.67,"end":10940.67,"text":"可以去定義每一個產業"},{"start":10940.67,"end":10942.67,"text":"其實它是高度專業"},{"start":10942.67,"end":10946.67,"text":"裡面的關鍵性的節點"},{"start":10947.43,"end":10949.43,"text":"它的風險點HARA"},{"start":10949.43,"end":10951.43,"text":"HARA的部分"},{"start":10951.43,"end":10953.43,"text":"危險點能夠確立下來"},{"start":10953.43,"end":10955.43,"text":"由專業簽證確立之後"},{"start":10955.43,"end":10957.43,"text":"按照這個樣子的簽證的結果"},{"start":10959.07,"end":10961.07,"text":"因執行"},{"start":10961.07,"end":10963.07,"text":"所以在這兩個部分的搭配之下"},{"start":10963.07,"end":10967.07,"text":"希望能夠達成委員的期待的部分"},{"start":10967.07,"end":10969.07,"text":"那我們也對於剛才提到的"},{"start":10969.07,"end":10971.07,"text":"是否要做到所謂的"},{"start":10971.07,"end":10974.07,"text":"所有的資訊的公開"},{"start":10974.07,"end":10976.07,"text":"我想關鍵性的節點"},{"start":10976.07,"end":10978.07,"text":"是說涉及業秘密的"},{"start":10978.07,"end":10980.07,"text":"但是另外一個部分"},{"start":10980.07,"end":10982.07,"text":"但是關鍵的食品安全的"},{"start":10982.07,"end":10984.07,"text":"風險的節點的部分"},{"start":10984.07,"end":10986.07,"text":"我們會在這部分"},{"start":10986.07,"end":10988.07,"text":"在HACCP裡面的規範"},{"start":10988.07,"end":10990.07,"text":"能夠達到這樣的要求"},{"start":10990.07,"end":10993.07,"text":"而符合能夠保障全國"},{"start":10993.07,"end":10995.07,"text":"食品安全的一個前提"},{"start":10995.07,"end":10997.07,"text":"這邊做一些說明跟補充 以上"},{"start":10998.11,"end":10999.11,"text":"好 那"},{"start":10999.11,"end":11001.11,"text":"你剛剛講這個是"},{"start":11001.11,"end":11003.11,"text":"到底有沒有要公開"},{"start":11003.71,"end":11005.71,"text":"檢驗數據要不要公開"},{"start":11006.79,"end":11008.79,"text":"關鍵性的節點"},{"start":11008.79,"end":11010.79,"text":"你的管制的節點"},{"start":11010.79,"end":11011.79,"text":"你都要公開了"},{"start":11011.79,"end":11013.79,"text":"那那個節點的數據不用公開"},{"start":11013.79,"end":11015.79,"text":"那我們只知道你管制這個"},{"start":11015.79,"end":11016.79,"text":"我又不知道你數據"},{"start":11016.79,"end":11017.79,"text":"對 我剛才提到的"},{"start":11017.79,"end":11018.79,"text":"那個資訊是公開"},{"start":11018.79,"end":11020.79,"text":"我們希望在未來"},{"start":11020.79,"end":11022.79,"text":"這關鍵性的數字公開"},{"start":11022.79,"end":11025.79,"text":"我想是對於食品安全的風險"},{"start":11025.79,"end":11027.79,"text":"能夠達到對大的涵蓋 以上"},{"start":11027.79,"end":11029.79,"text":"它那個HACCP裡面"},{"start":11029.79,"end":11031.79,"text":"沒有什麼營業秘密"},{"start":11031.79,"end":11033.79,"text":"但是它的專業簽證"},{"start":11033.79,"end":11034.79,"text":"專業簽證"},{"start":11034.79,"end":11036.79,"text":"它付費去請專業的技師"},{"start":11036.79,"end":11038.79,"text":"來幫它管制"},{"start":11038.79,"end":11040.79,"text":"做一個簽證"},{"start":11040.79,"end":11042.79,"text":"我們在第七條這邊"},{"start":11042.79,"end":11045.79,"text":"我們這次要修的就是說"},{"start":11045.79,"end":11047.79,"text":"以上剛委員講的寡占"},{"start":11047.79,"end":11048.79,"text":"或者是特定的業者"},{"start":11048.79,"end":11050.79,"text":"所以在第七條第一項的文字"},{"start":11050.79,"end":11052.79,"text":"我們上次在草擬這邊"},{"start":11052.79,"end":11053.79,"text":"上次在大家討論這邊"},{"start":11053.79,"end":11055.79,"text":"有符合一定類別及規模者"},{"start":11055.79,"end":11057.79,"text":"其食品安全監測計畫"},{"start":11057.79,"end":11059.79,"text":"應經專業簽證後報"},{"start":11059.79,"end":11060.79,"text":"中央主管機關核定"},{"start":11060.79,"end":11062.79,"text":"所以這樣的話就是說"},{"start":11062.79,"end":11064.79,"text":"它的這個專業簽證"},{"start":11064.79,"end":11065.79,"text":"所以我就是在講說"},{"start":11065.79,"end":11066.79,"text":"你這個就跟"},{"start":11067.64,"end":11070.64,"text":"水保計畫 環評計畫"},{"start":11070.64,"end":11071.64,"text":"業者要提的時候"},{"start":11071.64,"end":11073.64,"text":"也是去業者付錢"},{"start":11073.64,"end":11075.64,"text":"請技師幫他們提"},{"start":11075.64,"end":11077.64,"text":"那我的意思是說"},{"start":11077.64,"end":11079.64,"text":"其實錢都是業者付的"},{"start":11079.64,"end":11081.64,"text":"大家都領業者的錢"},{"start":11081.64,"end":11082.64,"text":"所以我們在講說"},{"start":11082.64,"end":11084.64,"text":"這一個東西我們了解"},{"start":11084.64,"end":11087.64,"text":"但是劉建國講的公衛師"},{"start":11087.64,"end":11089.64,"text":"是不一樣的概念"},{"start":11089.64,"end":11092.64,"text":"這個公衛師的概念"},{"start":11092.64,"end":11093.64,"text":"跟食品技師"},{"start":11093.64,"end":11097.64,"text":"食品技師是拿這個"},{"start":11097.64,"end":11099.64,"text":"業者的錢 幫業者簽證"},{"start":11099.64,"end":11101.64,"text":"或是幫他寫報告"},{"start":11101.64,"end":11104.64,"text":"那公衛師大家想像的可能是說"},{"start":11104.64,"end":11107.64,"text":"地方政府要配置公衛師"},{"start":11107.64,"end":11111.64,"text":"然後針對他們這個風險要把關"},{"start":11111.64,"end":11113.64,"text":"不是你技師一關而已"},{"start":11113.64,"end":11115.64,"text":"因為技師有道德風險嘛"},{"start":11115.64,"end":11117.64,"text":"我領你業者的錢嘛"},{"start":11117.64,"end":11118.64,"text":"那公衛師"},{"start":11120.04,"end":11123.04,"text":"他是公部門的 委託的 公會的"},{"start":11123.04,"end":11125.04,"text":"那他就逐一來審查這個風險"},{"start":11125.04,"end":11127.04,"text":"公衛師也是做風險評估的嘛"},{"start":11127.04,"end":11130.04,"text":"所以他可以幫忙你這個技師簽證"},{"start":11130.04,"end":11132.04,"text":"你的管制點 關鍵的節點"},{"start":11132.04,"end":11134.04,"text":"設定的當與不當"},{"start":11134.04,"end":11136.04,"text":"你每一個製程裡面"},{"start":11136.04,"end":11138.04,"text":"你應該還要加強什麼管制點"},{"start":11138.04,"end":11140.04,"text":"所以公衛師的角色"},{"start":11140.04,"end":11142.04,"text":"他不領你業者的錢"},{"start":11142.04,"end":11144.04,"text":"這樣子 這樣是相輔相成的"},{"start":11144.04,"end":11146.04,"text":"這樣子可能也是比較好的吧"},{"start":11151.31,"end":11154.31,"text":"四十一條跟四十一 只一條"},{"start":11154.31,"end":11156.31,"text":"我們都先行保留"},{"start":11156.31,"end":11158.31,"text":"那也請行政部門回去研議"},{"start":11159.36,"end":11161.36,"text":"主席我剛剛口誤"},{"start":11161.36,"end":11163.36,"text":"我是四十一條保留"},{"start":11163.36,"end":11165.36,"text":"因為我們還沒到四十一 只一"},{"start":11165.36,"end":11167.36,"text":"不好意思 四十一條保留"},{"start":11167.36,"end":11169.36,"text":"所以我們現在下面要"},{"start":11169.36,"end":11171.36,"text":"那個進行四十一 只一"},{"start":11171.36,"end":11173.36,"text":"因為剛是在四十一"},{"start":11173.36,"end":11175.36,"text":"好 那重新確認一下"},{"start":11175.36,"end":11177.36,"text":"我們四十一條先行保留"},{"start":11177.36,"end":11179.36,"text":"也請行政部門回去研議"},{"start":11179.36,"end":11183.36,"text":"並回應委員們所提出來的"},{"start":11183.36,"end":11185.36,"text":"這些建議事項"},{"start":11186.31,"end":11189.31,"text":"那我們繼續審四十一條 只一條"},{"start":11191.15,"end":11194.15,"text":"好 針對第四十條 只一"},{"start":11194.15,"end":11196.15,"text":"剛才我們針對四十一條"},{"start":11196.15,"end":11198.15,"text":"有討論過"},{"start":11198.15,"end":11200.15,"text":"王立民 王委員"},{"start":11200.15,"end":11202.15,"text":"與民眾黨黨團"},{"start":11202.15,"end":11204.15,"text":"以及賴世保 賴委員有提案"},{"start":11204.15,"end":11206.15,"text":"先就王委員"},{"start":11206.15,"end":11208.15,"text":"說明在四十一條"},{"start":11208.15,"end":11210.15,"text":"只一的部分"},{"start":11210.15,"end":11212.15,"text":"那是由現行的四十一條的"},{"start":11212.15,"end":11214.15,"text":"移列 原則上"},{"start":11214.15,"end":11216.15,"text":"維持的原有架構"},{"start":11216.15,"end":11218.15,"text":"另外新增的第一項"},{"start":11218.15,"end":11220.15,"text":"要求地方"},{"start":11220.15,"end":11223.15,"text":"訂定年度的查核計畫"},{"start":11223.15,"end":11227.15,"text":"並採不定期不預先通知查核"},{"start":11227.15,"end":11228.15,"text":"等事項"},{"start":11228.15,"end":11230.15,"text":"其提案一指"},{"start":11230.15,"end":11233.15,"text":"我們在第四十一條的第一項"},{"start":11233.15,"end":11235.15,"text":"及第二項的部分"},{"start":11235.15,"end":11237.15,"text":"我們已經把它採納了"},{"start":11237.15,"end":11239.15,"text":"另外提案新增的"},{"start":11239.15,"end":11242.15,"text":"我們的第四項要求採書面處分"},{"start":11243.13,"end":11246.13,"text":"定期重新審查及延長管制期間"},{"start":11246.13,"end":11248.13,"text":"等程序"},{"start":11248.13,"end":11250.13,"text":"該等規定將增加地方"},{"start":11250.13,"end":11252.13,"text":"主管機關行政"},{"start":11252.13,"end":11254.13,"text":"作業的負荷"},{"start":11254.13,"end":11256.13,"text":"以考量整個地方執行的量能"},{"start":11256.13,"end":11258.13,"text":"行政成本審慎的研議"},{"start":11258.13,"end":11260.13,"text":"那有關於民眾黨這邊"},{"start":11260.13,"end":11262.13,"text":"特別提案有關中央"},{"start":11262.13,"end":11264.13,"text":"主管機關應依食品風險"},{"start":11264.13,"end":11266.13,"text":"公告各類食品抽驗"},{"start":11266.13,"end":11268.13,"text":"頻率等事項"},{"start":11268.13,"end":11270.13,"text":"那我們建議條文"},{"start":11270.13,"end":11273.13,"text":"我們建議條文第四十一條第三項"},{"start":11273.13,"end":11276.13,"text":"這個部分已經規範在我們中央主管機關"},{"start":11276.13,"end":11280.13,"text":"得依據食品安全及風險評估"},{"start":11280.13,"end":11283.13,"text":"等資訊訂定的專案計畫裡面"},{"start":11283.13,"end":11285.13,"text":"這邊也做進一步的說明"},{"start":11285.62,"end":11287.62,"text":"另外就是有關"},{"start":11287.62,"end":11289.62,"text":"賴委員提到"},{"start":11289.62,"end":11291.62,"text":"也是國民黨黨團及部分委員"},{"start":11291.62,"end":11294.62,"text":"在修正條文第四十二條之二"},{"start":11294.62,"end":11296.62,"text":"已經有類似的相關提案"},{"start":11296.62,"end":11298.62,"text":"賴委員特別提案到第一項"},{"start":11298.62,"end":11300.62,"text":"主管機關具體的"},{"start":11300.62,"end":11302.62,"text":"適時足證食品"},{"start":11302.62,"end":11305.62,"text":"等有違法或危害"},{"start":11305.62,"end":11309.62,"text":"衛生安全至於得命業者暫停製造販售"},{"start":11309.62,"end":11310.62,"text":"等等"},{"start":11310.62,"end":11313.62,"text":"以及第二項下架的規範原則"},{"start":11313.62,"end":11317.62,"text":"我們建議條文第四十一條第一項"},{"start":11317.62,"end":11319.62,"text":"以及第二條授權的辦法"},{"start":11319.62,"end":11321.62,"text":"已經有相關的規定"},{"start":11321.62,"end":11323.62,"text":"提案裡面的第三項"},{"start":11323.62,"end":11325.62,"text":"要求主管機關與預防措施"},{"start":11325.62,"end":11327.62,"text":"七十二小時內完成"},{"start":11327.62,"end":11329.62,"text":"一定的復驗的一節"},{"start":11329.62,"end":11332.62,"text":"因為考量整個案件的規模批次"},{"start":11332.62,"end":11335.62,"text":"以及檢驗各個所需要時間的複雜程度"},{"start":11335.62,"end":11337.62,"text":"的確真的是不一致"},{"start":11337.62,"end":11339.62,"text":"所以部分的檢驗"},{"start":11339.62,"end":11341.62,"text":"需要經過"},{"start":11341.62,"end":11343.62,"text":"有細菌的培養"},{"start":11343.62,"end":11345.62,"text":"有些培養的難培養的"},{"start":11345.62,"end":11347.62,"text":"甚至兩個禮拜"},{"start":11347.62,"end":11349.62,"text":"所以在七十二小時之內"},{"start":11349.62,"end":11351.62,"text":"也需要一些特殊儀器程序等等"},{"start":11351.62,"end":11353.62,"text":"未必能夠七十二小時能夠完成"},{"start":11353.62,"end":11355.62,"text":"所以"},{"start":11355.62,"end":11356.62,"text":"此外呢"},{"start":11356.62,"end":11358.62,"text":"食品安全的風險確認"},{"start":11358.62,"end":11360.62,"text":"能夠需要綜合考量結果"},{"start":11360.62,"end":11362.62,"text":"原料來源整個整等"},{"start":11362.62,"end":11364.62,"text":"非僅能夠透過整個官方的"},{"start":11364.62,"end":11366.62,"text":"復驗的判定"},{"start":11366.62,"end":11368.62,"text":"所以如果我在母法門一律要求"},{"start":11368.62,"end":11370.62,"text":"主管機關採取預防性措施後"},{"start":11370.62,"end":11372.62,"text":"完成官方復驗"},{"start":11372.62,"end":11374.62,"text":"且明定一級期限恐無法"},{"start":11374.62,"end":11376.62,"text":"充分考量不同案件的"},{"start":11376.62,"end":11378.62,"text":"風險的特性"},{"start":11378.62,"end":11380.62,"text":"調查的需求"},{"start":11380.62,"end":11382.62,"text":"可能使主管機關受限於法定的"},{"start":11382.62,"end":11384.62,"text":"實現難以依靠個案"},{"start":11384.62,"end":11386.62,"text":"情形妥適的安排檢驗"},{"start":11386.62,"end":11388.62,"text":"調查以及風險的評估等等"},{"start":11390.36,"end":11392.36,"text":"原不明明定一致性"},{"start":11392.36,"end":11394.36,"text":"至官方復驗醫務的期限"},{"start":11394.36,"end":11396.36,"text":"在第四項裡面"},{"start":11396.36,"end":11398.36,"text":"代表人裡面規定"},{"start":11398.36,"end":11400.36,"text":"經評估或復驗確認"},{"start":11400.36,"end":11402.36,"text":"符合規定且無"},{"start":11402.36,"end":11404.36,"text":"危害衛生安全之予以者"},{"start":11404.36,"end":11406.36,"text":"應立即解除預防性"},{"start":11406.36,"end":11408.36,"text":"措施並不得公開"},{"start":11408.36,"end":11410.36,"text":"尚未證實是業者身分"},{"start":11410.36,"end":11412.36,"text":"及產品資訊一級"},{"start":11412.36,"end":11414.36,"text":"建議條文"},{"start":11415.19,"end":11417.19,"text":"建議條文第四十二條"},{"start":11417.19,"end":11419.19,"text":"以授權中央主管機關"},{"start":11419.19,"end":11423.19,"text":"訂定違規下架的案件"},{"start":11423.19,"end":11425.19,"text":"預防性下架範圍等等"},{"start":11425.19,"end":11427.19,"text":"所以至於業者身分產品的"},{"start":11427.19,"end":11429.19,"text":"亂世或異議保密"},{"start":11429.19,"end":11431.19,"text":"仍應橫著整個食品安全的"},{"start":11431.19,"end":11433.19,"text":"風險跟消費者"},{"start":11433.19,"end":11435.19,"text":"知情權等個案"},{"start":11435.19,"end":11437.19,"text":"來予以判定"},{"start":11437.19,"end":11439.19,"text":"至於提到第五項裡面"},{"start":11439.19,"end":11441.19,"text":"應採取預防性措施"},{"start":11441.19,"end":11443.19,"text":"而受有特別犧牲且無可規則"},{"start":11443.19,"end":11445.19,"text":"業者事由者"},{"start":11445.19,"end":11447.19,"text":"應得請求合理補償一節"},{"start":11447.19,"end":11449.19,"text":"建議條文在我們後面"},{"start":11449.19,"end":11451.19,"text":"也會有在56條之一"},{"start":11451.19,"end":11453.19,"text":"增訂食品安全保護基金得補償"},{"start":11453.19,"end":11455.19,"text":"依指揮中心指示或"},{"start":11455.19,"end":11457.19,"text":"中央主管機關"},{"start":11457.19,"end":11459.19,"text":"依第四條第五項"},{"start":11459.19,"end":11461.19,"text":"第二款規定下架之"},{"start":11461.19,"end":11463.19,"text":"公告之下架之非違規產品"},{"start":11463.19,"end":11465.19,"text":"業者相關費用"},{"start":11465.19,"end":11467.19,"text":"因此以上說明"},{"start":11467.19,"end":11469.19,"text":"建議是不予增訂"},{"start":11469.19,"end":11471.19,"text":"以上說明"},{"start":11470.79,"end":11472.79,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":11472.79,"end":11474.79,"text":"來就由原請"},{"start":11494.16,"end":11496.16,"text":"呃41條之一的第一項"},{"start":11496.16,"end":11498.16,"text":"就是要公告"},{"start":11498.16,"end":11500.16,"text":"公告各類食品最低抽菸的"},{"start":11500.16,"end":11502.16,"text":"頻率跟比例"},{"start":11502.16,"end":11504.16,"text":"我想是這次中原有指"},{"start":11504.16,"end":11506.16,"text":"四件最主要的重中"},{"start":11506.16,"end":11508.16,"text":"重的焦點就是在這個抽菸"},{"start":11508.16,"end":11510.16,"text":"的確實執行方面"},{"start":11510.16,"end":11512.16,"text":"那中央主管機關"},{"start":11512.16,"end":11514.16,"text":"除了應該要做這樣的公告之外"},{"start":11514.16,"end":11516.16,"text":"那他把規則訂定出來"},{"start":11516.16,"end":11518.16,"text":"之後他應該"},{"start":11518.16,"end":11520.16,"text":"要督導各級的主管"},{"start":11520.16,"end":11522.16,"text":"機關去執行"},{"start":11522.16,"end":11524.16,"text":"這是我們第一項所主張的"},{"start":11524.16,"end":11526.16,"text":"那第二項呢既然"},{"start":11526.16,"end":11528.16,"text":"我們公告了"},{"start":11528.16,"end":11530.16,"text":"我們主張公告最低的抽菸"},{"start":11530.16,"end":11532.16,"text":"頻率跟比例"},{"start":11532.16,"end":11534.16,"text":"那也要督導地方政府去執行"},{"start":11534.16,"end":11536.16,"text":"那執行的結果呢"},{"start":11536.16,"end":11538.16,"text":"我們在第二項呢就有做"},{"start":11538.16,"end":11540.16,"text":"一個規範也就是中央主管機關"},{"start":11540.16,"end":11542.16,"text":"應該"},{"start":11541.65,"end":11543.65,"text":"在美季在網站公開各類食品的"},{"start":11543.65,"end":11545.65,"text":"抽菸的建樹"},{"start":11545.65,"end":11547.65,"text":"其實就是一個結果的公告"},{"start":11547.65,"end":11549.65,"text":"不合格率抽菸的密度"},{"start":11549.65,"end":11551.65,"text":"還有各品牌"},{"start":11551.65,"end":11553.65,"text":"歷年的違規紀錄"},{"start":11553.65,"end":11555.65,"text":"那我想我們這樣制定的理由"},{"start":11555.65,"end":11557.65,"text":"其實就是要保障民眾"},{"start":11557.65,"end":11559.65,"text":"的一個知情權"},{"start":11559.65,"end":11561.65,"text":"那剛剛署長似乎有提到"},{"start":11561.65,"end":11563.65,"text":"四十一條第三項"},{"start":11563.65,"end":11565.65,"text":"有類似的條文"},{"start":11565.65,"end":11567.65,"text":"但是我翻找了一下"},{"start":11567.65,"end":11569.65,"text":"我覺得還是跟我們的意旨"},{"start":11569.65,"end":11571.65,"text":"跟精神有一些落差"},{"start":11571.65,"end":11573.65,"text":"那好像有提到一個專案"},{"start":11573.65,"end":11575.65,"text":"有規定那專案畢竟是"},{"start":11575.65,"end":11577.65,"text":"執法那我們覺得這件事是"},{"start":11577.65,"end":11579.65,"text":"重中之重所以如果"},{"start":11579.65,"end":11581.65,"text":"縱使為福布現行的執法"},{"start":11581.65,"end":11583.65,"text":"有那我們認為應該把它提升到"},{"start":11583.65,"end":11585.65,"text":"法律的慰藉才能夠彰顯"},{"start":11585.65,"end":11587.65,"text":"我們對這件事的重視"},{"start":11587.65,"end":11589.65,"text":"也才能夠提升他的"},{"start":11589.65,"end":11591.65,"text":"法律效力以上說明"},{"start":11591.65,"end":11593.65,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":11593.66,"end":11595.66,"text":"好請問還有沒有其他委員"},{"start":11595.66,"end":11597.66,"text":"來"},{"start":11597.66,"end":11599.66,"text":"這位委員請"},{"start":11601.9,"end":11603.9,"text":"好謝謝主席"},{"start":11603.9,"end":11605.9,"text":"那本席認為在台灣歷經這麼"},{"start":11605.9,"end":11607.9,"text":"多次的食安風暴以來"},{"start":11607.9,"end":11609.9,"text":"其實民眾對"},{"start":11609.9,"end":11611.9,"text":"食安稽查的不信任感"},{"start":11611.9,"end":11613.9,"text":"一直在增加在食品"},{"start":11613.9,"end":11615.9,"text":"產業中存在著極度"},{"start":11615.9,"end":11617.9,"text":"嚴重的資訊不對稱"},{"start":11617.9,"end":11619.9,"text":"消費者永遠處在弱勢"},{"start":11619.9,"end":11621.9,"text":"我們吃進肚子的東西"},{"start":11621.9,"end":11623.9,"text":"符不符合為福布設定的"},{"start":11623.9,"end":11625.9,"text":"安全標準"},{"start":11625.9,"end":11627.9,"text":"其實只能仰賴政府的"},{"start":11627.9,"end":11629.9,"text":"稽查我們才會知道"},{"start":11629.9,"end":11631.9,"text":"此次美季在網站"},{"start":11631.9,"end":11633.9,"text":"公開各類食品的抽驗"},{"start":11633.9,"end":11635.9,"text":"件數不合格率"},{"start":11635.9,"end":11637.9,"text":"抽驗密度及各品牌"},{"start":11637.9,"end":11639.9,"text":"歷年的違規紀錄"},{"start":11639.9,"end":11641.9,"text":"這些資訊是有必要的"},{"start":11641.9,"end":11643.9,"text":"除了可以確保政府"},{"start":11643.9,"end":11645.9,"text":"有落實每一次的稽查之外"},{"start":11645.9,"end":11647.9,"text":"更可以讓業者"},{"start":11647.9,"end":11649.9,"text":"可以善盡自主管理"},{"start":11649.9,"end":11651.9,"text":"的責任"},{"start":11653.58,"end":11655.58,"text":"好 那是不是也麻煩"},{"start":11655.58,"end":11657.58,"text":"微博這邊回應"},{"start":11657.63,"end":11659.63,"text":"誒 慢著 程序問題我會問一下"},{"start":11659.63,"end":11661.63,"text":"我們是不是41之1"},{"start":11661.63,"end":11663.63,"text":"42"},{"start":11663.63,"end":11665.63,"text":"42之2我看其他委員好像都是"},{"start":11665.63,"end":11667.63,"text":"同一個範疇 同一個概念"},{"start":11667.82,"end":11669.82,"text":"應該要合併討論"},{"start":11671.09,"end":11673.09,"text":"就是說我看這個條文"},{"start":11673.09,"end":11675.09,"text":"民眾條文41之1可能是別人"},{"start":11675.09,"end":11677.09,"text":"42啊"},{"start":11677.09,"end":11679.09,"text":"還有其他委員42條之1之2"},{"start":11679.09,"end":11681.09,"text":"好像也都是在討論"},{"start":11681.09,"end":11683.09,"text":"這個概念啊"},{"start":11683.09,"end":11685.09,"text":"就是在談說"},{"start":11685.09,"end":11687.09,"text":"檢驗 管制 下架"},{"start":11687.09,"end":11689.09,"text":"查核"},{"start":11689.09,"end":11691.09,"text":"這種都混在一起"},{"start":11691.09,"end":11693.09,"text":"我們是不是可以合併討論"},{"start":11693.09,"end":11695.09,"text":"合併讓我這樣決定"},{"start":11695.09,"end":11697.09,"text":"就是說剛剛"},{"start":11697.09,"end":11699.09,"text":"已經有委員有先提問嘛"},{"start":11699.09,"end":11701.09,"text":"那我們就說明以後我們再來處理"},{"start":11701.09,"end":11703.09,"text":"這個41之2之3"},{"start":11703.09,"end":11705.09,"text":"這樣的"},{"start":11705.09,"end":11707.09,"text":"這個內容好不好"},{"start":11707.09,"end":11709.09,"text":"好 OK"},{"start":11709.09,"end":11711.09,"text":"先說明一下 謝謝"},{"start":11711.32,"end":11713.32,"text":"謝謝我先說明一下"},{"start":11713.32,"end":11715.32,"text":"謝謝委員 也像剛剛"},{"start":11715.32,"end":11717.32,"text":"除非委員提到 因為委員這邊"},{"start":11717.32,"end":11719.32,"text":"他閃在41 41之1 42之"},{"start":11720.62,"end":11722.62,"text":"42條之後"},{"start":11722.62,"end":11724.62,"text":"那41條"},{"start":11724.69,"end":11726.69,"text":"質疑這邊台灣民眾黨黨團體"},{"start":11726.69,"end":11728.69,"text":"案的這個部分其實回過頭來"},{"start":11728.69,"end":11730.69,"text":"我們為什麼要在41條去"},{"start":11730.69,"end":11732.69,"text":"在第二項跟第三項分別"},{"start":11732.69,"end":11734.69,"text":"就中央主管機關跟地方主管機關"},{"start":11734.69,"end":11736.69,"text":"他在食品"},{"start":11736.69,"end":11738.69,"text":"這個相關的抽驗頻率"},{"start":11738.69,"end":11740.69,"text":"以及他的這個標準跟他的"},{"start":11740.69,"end":11742.69,"text":"這個權限為什麼要寫在那邊"},{"start":11742.69,"end":11744.69,"text":"就是剛剛提到地方主管機關"},{"start":11744.69,"end":11746.69,"text":"他對於他地方的產品特性"},{"start":11746.69,"end":11748.69,"text":"或者是他的一些特定的產業"},{"start":11749.9,"end":11751.9,"text":"或者是重大的產業"},{"start":11751.9,"end":11753.9,"text":"那依他的這些食品"},{"start":11753.9,"end":11755.9,"text":"衛生安全的風險 那訂定年度的"},{"start":11755.9,"end":11757.9,"text":"稽查來辦理相關的抽驗"},{"start":11757.9,"end":11759.9,"text":"這個是我們尊重地方主管機關"},{"start":11759.9,"end":11761.9,"text":"他應該要基於他地方特性跟權責"},{"start":11761.9,"end":11763.9,"text":"那中央主管機關這邊的權限"},{"start":11763.9,"end":11765.9,"text":"就重大突發性的事件"},{"start":11765.9,"end":11767.9,"text":"那我們來做這樣子相關的"},{"start":11767.9,"end":11769.9,"text":"措施 那主要我相信也是"},{"start":11769.9,"end":11771.9,"text":"符合這一次大家提到中央跟地方對於"},{"start":11771.9,"end":11773.9,"text":"查驗的權限的差異"},{"start":11773.9,"end":11775.9,"text":"以及是不是能夠在"},{"start":11775.9,"end":11777.9,"text":"中央跟地方分別來落實食品安全"},{"start":11777.9,"end":11779.9,"text":"的這樣子的業務"},{"start":11779.9,"end":11781.9,"text":"地方主管機關他"},{"start":11781.9,"end":11783.9,"text":"其實我們過去當然因為"},{"start":11783.9,"end":11785.9,"text":"過去沒有這樣子的明確的分界"},{"start":11785.9,"end":11787.9,"text":"所以我們有一些依照我們的風險"},{"start":11787.9,"end":11789.9,"text":"我們會有一些年度的專案來協助"},{"start":11789.9,"end":11791.9,"text":"地方主管機關 但是專案協助"},{"start":11791.9,"end":11793.9,"text":"地方主管機關並不代表地方主管機關"},{"start":11793.9,"end":11795.9,"text":"他就只由中央"},{"start":11795.9,"end":11797.9,"text":"主管機關的專案來做這些檢驗"},{"start":11797.9,"end":11799.9,"text":"所以我們這次41條把兩邊拆開來"},{"start":11799.9,"end":11801.9,"text":"寫清楚地方的權限中央的權限"},{"start":11801.9,"end":11803.9,"text":"那至於說民眾黨黨團"},{"start":11803.9,"end":11805.9,"text":"提案說中央主管機關"},{"start":11805.9,"end":11807.9,"text":"要公告各類食品最低抽驗頻率"},{"start":11807.9,"end":11809.9,"text":"這個部分"},{"start":11809.9,"end":11811.9,"text":"因為食品的種類非常的多"},{"start":11811.9,"end":11813.9,"text":"那有些縣市"},{"start":11813.9,"end":11815.9,"text":"有這個產品有些可能沒有"},{"start":11815.9,"end":11817.9,"text":"這間工廠所以我們來公告"},{"start":11817.9,"end":11819.9,"text":"這個部分可能就是會"},{"start":11819.9,"end":11821.9,"text":"跟前面41條"},{"start":11821.9,"end":11823.9,"text":"我們把中央跟地方分別"},{"start":11823.9,"end":11825.9,"text":"就他的這個業務上面"},{"start":11825.9,"end":11827.9,"text":"的需求來做處理"},{"start":11827.9,"end":11829.9,"text":"會有一點點衝突"},{"start":11829.9,"end":11831.9,"text":"第二個部分就是說"},{"start":11831.9,"end":11833.9,"text":"地方主管機關他的抽驗的"},{"start":11833.9,"end":11835.9,"text":"建樹不合格率等等其實我們過去"},{"start":11835.9,"end":11837.9,"text":"也會看到地方主管機關"},{"start":11837.9,"end":11839.9,"text":"都會為了要讓民眾對於食安"},{"start":11839.9,"end":11841.9,"text":"這邊的這個信心或者是"},{"start":11841.9,"end":11843.9,"text":"了解那在特定的季節"},{"start":11843.9,"end":11845.9,"text":"特定的這個食品的"},{"start":11845.9,"end":11847.9,"text":"種類等等他們也會有相關的"},{"start":11847.9,"end":11849.9,"text":"公開或者是新聞稿"},{"start":11849.9,"end":11851.9,"text":"那至於"},{"start":11851.9,"end":11853.9,"text":"這邊中央主管機關來公開"},{"start":11853.9,"end":11855.9,"text":"各縣市政府對於各類"},{"start":11855.9,"end":11857.9,"text":"食品的抽驗建樹不合格率"},{"start":11857.9,"end":11859.9,"text":"就像我剛剛提到的因為"},{"start":11859.9,"end":11861.9,"text":"對民眾來講他不見得知道哪些"},{"start":11861.9,"end":11863.9,"text":"哪些業哪些特定的產業是在哪些"},{"start":11863.9,"end":11865.9,"text":"特定的縣市"},{"start":11865.9,"end":11867.9,"text":"那第一個就擔心說這個部分會產生"},{"start":11867.9,"end":11869.9,"text":"一些誤解那比方說"},{"start":11869.9,"end":11871.9,"text":"我這個縣市可能完全沒有"},{"start":11871.9,"end":11873.9,"text":"有油廠可是你要我公佈"},{"start":11873.9,"end":11875.9,"text":"我驗了多少間油廠我就是零可是我沒有"},{"start":11875.9,"end":11877.9,"text":"有廠那第二個事情就是說"},{"start":11877.9,"end":11879.9,"text":"在這個過程其實對於地方主管"},{"start":11879.9,"end":11881.9,"text":"機關進行這個"},{"start":11881.9,"end":11883.9,"text":"食安的這個食品安全"},{"start":11883.9,"end":11885.9,"text":"的檢驗措施以及他的這個"},{"start":11885.9,"end":11887.9,"text":"稽查的這個"},{"start":11887.9,"end":11889.9,"text":"效能或者是稽查的這個"},{"start":11889.9,"end":11891.9,"text":"工作做得好不好"},{"start":11891.9,"end":11893.9,"text":"我想他主要能夠有更強的"},{"start":11893.9,"end":11895.9,"text":"監督在民主法制之下"},{"start":11895.9,"end":11897.9,"text":"應該是地方的議員地方民意"},{"start":11897.9,"end":11899.9,"text":"代表對於地方主管機關做這樣的"},{"start":11899.9,"end":11901.9,"text":"權限就像我們現在接受我們的"},{"start":11901.9,"end":11903.9,"text":"立法院對於我們的監督我想是地方"},{"start":11903.9,"end":11905.9,"text":"自治跟中央的相關的法規不同"},{"start":11905.9,"end":11907.9,"text":"的層級這邊大概在"},{"start":11907.9,"end":11909.9,"text":"這個部分做個補充謝謝"},{"start":11911.04,"end":11913.04,"text":"好那"},{"start":11913.04,"end":11915.04,"text":"就是四十一"},{"start":11915.04,"end":11917.04,"text":"之一"},{"start":11917.04,"end":11919.04,"text":"的確是有一些"},{"start":11919.04,"end":11921.04,"text":"剛剛大家所討論的內容"},{"start":11921.04,"end":11923.04,"text":"那我這邊也同時了解"},{"start":11923.04,"end":11925.04,"text":"現在四十一條之二"},{"start":11925.04,"end":11927.04,"text":"跟四十一條之三也是民眾黨"},{"start":11927.04,"end":11929.04,"text":"黨團針對於處理"},{"start":11929.04,"end":11931.04,"text":"以後要有一定的"},{"start":11931.04,"end":11933.04,"text":"實現裡面要提出"},{"start":11933.04,"end":11935.04,"text":"調查報告並且送到"},{"start":11935.04,"end":11937.04,"text":"立法院來備查還有"},{"start":11937.04,"end":11939.04,"text":"後面上架的這些"},{"start":11939.04,"end":11941.04,"text":"需求"},{"start":11941.04,"end":11943.04,"text":"就誠如這個立書問委員所"},{"start":11943.04,"end":11945.04,"text":"剛剛提議的我們"},{"start":11945.04,"end":11947.04,"text":"是可以一併來做"},{"start":11947.04,"end":11949.04,"text":"討論那是不是"},{"start":11949.04,"end":11951.04,"text":"看委員們還有沒有其他問題要提"},{"start":11951.04,"end":11953.04,"text":"出來做發言"},{"start":11953.04,"end":11955.04,"text":"好所以現在是四十一條之二"},{"start":11955.04,"end":11957.04,"text":"之三可以一併討論嗎"},{"start":11957.04,"end":11959.04,"text":"那關於"},{"start":11959.04,"end":11961.04,"text":"四十一條之一我們"},{"start":11961.04,"end":11963.04,"text":"所接觸的一個"},{"start":11963.04,"end":11965.04,"text":"原則就是要公開"},{"start":11965.04,"end":11967.04,"text":"資訊透明"},{"start":11967.05,"end":11969.05,"text":"保證人民知情的權利"},{"start":11969.05,"end":11971.05,"text":"那四十一條之二當然就是"},{"start":11971.05,"end":11973.05,"text":"加強國會監督的力道"},{"start":11973.05,"end":11975.05,"text":"所以就是如果中央主管"},{"start":11975.05,"end":11977.05,"text":"機關他沒有依規定辦理"},{"start":11977.05,"end":11979.05,"text":"抽查的話那導致這個"},{"start":11979.05,"end":11981.05,"text":"食安事件擴大"},{"start":11981.05,"end":11983.05,"text":"擴大那應該在"},{"start":11983.05,"end":11985.05,"text":"兩個月內提出行政報告"},{"star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d":12178.16,"text":"也可以判斷責任要如何"},{"start":12178.16,"end":12180.16,"text":"釐清所以我在這邊支持"},{"start":12180.16,"end":12182.16,"text":"重大的食安事件一定要"},{"start":12182.16,"end":12184.16,"text":"兩個月內提出完整報告法定"},{"start":12184.16,"end":12186.16,"text":"一入對於位議規定辦理抽檢"},{"start":12186.16,"end":12188.16,"text":"導致事件擴大"},{"start":12188.16,"end":12190.16,"text":"也應該提出行政調查"},{"start":12190.16,"end":12192.16,"text":"送立法院備查接受國會的"},{"start":12192.16,"end":12194.16,"text":"監督至於完整報告"},{"start":12194.16,"end":12196.16,"text":"的內容我們可以進一步"},{"start":12196.16,"end":12198.16,"text":"跟官員們"},{"start":12198.16,"end":12200.16,"text":"來溝通就是"},{"start":12200.16,"end":12202.16,"text":"依照立法院依法"},{"start":12202.16,"end":12204.16,"text":"公開的條件寫清楚"},{"start":12204.16,"end":12206.16,"text":"讓調查可以涵蓋整齊"},{"start":12206.16,"end":12208.16,"text":"原因影響範圍處置"},{"start":12208.16,"end":12210.16,"text":"的時序決策的過程"},{"start":12210.16,"end":12212.16,"text":"依據還有行政缺失"},{"start":12212.16,"end":12214.16,"text":"還有改善條件等等"},{"start":12214.16,"end":12216.16,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":12221.29,"end":12223.29,"text":"謝謝李書人委員請發言"},{"start":12225.06,"end":12229.06,"text":"好這個下架跟恢復流通"},{"start":12229.06,"end":12231.06,"text":"其實是三方的平衡"},{"start":12231.06,"end":12233.06,"text":"一個是消費者的風險"},{"start":12233.06,"end":12235.06,"text":"一個是業者的權益"},{"start":12235.06,"end":12237.06,"text":"那會牽扯到"},{"start":12237.06,"end":12239.06,"text":"政府能不能站在客觀中立"},{"start":12239.06,"end":12241.06,"text":"所以人民對政府的"},{"start":12241.06,"end":12243.06,"text":"這個態度他的可信度"},{"start":12243.06,"end":12245.06,"text":"其實是這三方在角力"},{"start":12245.06,"end":12247.06,"text":"但是在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":12247.06,"end":12249.06,"text":"我仍然還是覺得"},{"start":12249.06,"end":12251.06,"text":"要塌綠"},{"start":12251.06,"end":12253.06,"text":"這個東西我可以這樣舉例"},{"start":12253.06,"end":12255.06,"text":"我覺得衛福部要神聖的去思考"},{"start":12255.06,"end":12257.06,"text":"因為大多數執行面"},{"start":12257.06,"end":12259.06,"text":"都在地方政府"},{"start":12259.06,"end":12261.06,"text":"那我們要求其實也有一些"},{"start":12261.06,"end":12263.06,"text":"地方政府人家"},{"start":12263.06,"end":12265.06,"text":"檢驗了什麼就公告"},{"start":12266.54,"end":12268.54,"text":"還發新聞稿"},{"start":12268.54,"end":12270.54,"text":"搞卻公告"},{"start":12271.92,"end":12273.92,"text":"我們讓地方政府"},{"start":12273.92,"end":12275.92,"text":"剋責他們有檢驗就公告"},{"start":12275.92,"end":12277.92,"text":"合格的不合格通通公告"},{"start":12277.92,"end":12279.92,"text":"設一個地方政府"},{"start":12279.92,"end":12281.92,"text":"設一個公告專區"},{"start":12281.92,"end":12283.92,"text":"就專門就"},{"start":12283.92,"end":12285.92,"text":"各種食品各式各樣的"},{"start":12285.92,"end":12287.92,"text":"你有檢驗你通通公告"},{"start":12287.92,"end":12289.92,"text":"那你要強迫他"},{"start":12289.92,"end":12291.92,"text":"一定要檢驗什麼"},{"start":12291.92,"end":12293.92,"text":"那是另外一件事"},{"start":12293.92,"end":12295.92,"text":"但是架設一個公告區"},{"start":12295.92,"end":12297.92,"text":"有檢驗就公告"},{"start":12297.92,"end":12299.92,"text":"為什麼我要這麼說"},{"start":12299.17,"end":12301.17,"text":"你去問全台灣的人"},{"start":12301.17,"end":12303.17,"text":"他們都有一個概念"},{"start":12303.17,"end":12305.17,"text":"他們都認為反正"},{"start":12305.17,"end":12307.17,"text":"有政府所以"},{"start":12307.75,"end":12309.75,"text":"架上的都是"},{"start":12309.75,"end":12311.75,"text":"政府把關過的"},{"start":12312.5,"end":12314.5,"text":"理論上他們都是這樣認為"},{"start":12314.5,"end":12316.5,"text":"事實上其實是沒有"},{"start":12316.5,"end":12318.5,"text":"真的沒有完全都沒有"},{"start":12318.5,"end":12320.5,"text":"因為是業者自主管理"},{"start":12322.22,"end":12326.22,"text":"所以我們要恢復這個信心"},{"start":12326.22,"end":12328.22,"text":"其實是要講風險"},{"start":12328.22,"end":12330.22,"text":"真的要控制"},{"start":12330.22,"end":12332.22,"text":"各人做給各人帶"},{"start":12332.22,"end":12334.22,"text":"地方政府檢驗的頻率這麼多"},{"start":12334.22,"end":12336.22,"text":"那是你們家"},{"start":12336.22,"end":12338.22,"text":"你就給大家看"},{"start":12338.22,"end":12340.22,"text":"那人民自然心中有一把尺"},{"start":12340.22,"end":12342.22,"text":"會公平嘛"},{"start":12341.17,"end":12343.17,"text":"我大家都代替代表"},{"start":12343.17,"end":12345.17,"text":"大家都代替議員"},{"start":12345.17,"end":12347.17,"text":"代替立委"},{"start":12348.16,"end":12352.16,"text":"不管誰執政誰是地方誰是中央"},{"start":12352.16,"end":12354.16,"text":"我們把法律定了"},{"start":12354.16,"end":12356.16,"text":"所有你定期檢驗的不定期檢驗的"},{"start":12356.16,"end":12358.16,"text":"你只要政府有去檢驗的"},{"start":12358.16,"end":12360.16,"text":"通通給我公告"},{"start":12360.63,"end":12362.63,"text":"我也不強迫你肖慕"},{"start":12362.63,"end":12364.63,"text":"來出事情了"},{"start":12364.63,"end":12366.63,"text":"你這一個市長到現在"},{"start":12366.63,"end":12368.63,"text":"你沒有檢驗過半次"},{"start":12368.63,"end":12370.63,"text":"市長會說"},{"start":12370.63,"end":12372.63,"text":"又沒有規定一定要強制"},{"start":12372.63,"end":12374.63,"text":"我們現在講說別人為什麼就有"},{"start":12374.63,"end":12376.63,"text":"你為什麼就沒有"},{"start":12376.24,"end":12378.24,"text":"不用等地方跟中央"},{"start":12378.24,"end":12380.24,"text":"在那邊推卸責任說"},{"start":12380.24,"end":12382.24,"text":"他沒有強制跟我無關"},{"start":12382.24,"end":12384.24,"text":"我們現在就是"},{"start":12385,"end":12387,"text":"不管你有沒有"},{"start":12387,"end":12389,"text":"大家要自主管理"},{"start":12389,"end":12391,"text":"我不是講業者自主管理"},{"start":12392.02,"end":12399.02,"text":"政府各級政府地方政府第一線稽查的政府各自自主管理"},{"start":12399.02,"end":12403.02,"text":"你對於你轄區行政區域範圍內"},{"start":12403.02,"end":12405.02,"text":"你的食品安全"},{"start":12405.02,"end":12407.02,"text":"你管你的強度要多高"},{"start":12407.02,"end":12409.02,"text":"你管你的頻率要多高"},{"start":12409.02,"end":12412.02,"text":"你的檢驗數字通通"},{"start":12412.02,"end":12415.02,"text":"什麼時候去做全部公開"},{"start":12415.51,"end":12417.51,"text":"都不用在那裡出事了"},{"start":12417.51,"end":12420.51,"text":"說來你這個政府去了兩次"},{"start":12420.51,"end":12422.51,"text":"你這個政府去了四次"},{"start":12422.51,"end":12424.51,"text":"還是八次在那裡玩假"},{"start":12424.51,"end":12426.51,"text":"我們在這裡立法"},{"start":12426.51,"end":12427.51,"text":"明定"},{"start":12427.51,"end":12429.51,"text":"只要你有去檢查的"},{"start":12429.51,"end":12431.51,"text":"通通都公告"},{"start":12431.51,"end":12433.51,"text":"來十年前到現在十年"},{"start":12433.51,"end":12435.51,"text":"你完全都沒有檢查過"},{"start":12436.13,"end":12438.13,"text":"誰執政誰負責"},{"start":12438.21,"end":12440.21,"text":"我覺得就是要"},{"start":12440.21,"end":12442.21,"text":"資訊公開透明"},{"start":12442.21,"end":12445.21,"text":"就是最好的民主的機制"},{"start":12445.21,"end":12448.21,"text":"就是最好的問責的機制"},{"start":12448.21,"end":12451.21,"text":"就是最好的管理制度"},{"start":12451.21,"end":12453.21,"text":"大家一起看"},{"start":12453.21,"end":12456.21,"text":"不管地方政府誰執政都一樣"},{"start":12457.44,"end":12459.44,"text":"所以這個制度要怎麼寫"},{"start":12459.44,"end":12461.44,"text":"我覺得值得寫進去"},{"start":12462.02,"end":12463.02,"text":"但是"},{"start":12463.6,"end":12464.6,"text":"不是"},{"start":12464.6,"end":12466.6,"text":"我覺得有點像是"},{"start":12468.85,"end":12469.85,"text":"就是這樣我講的那樣"},{"start":12469.85,"end":12473.85,"text":"但不是跟民眾黨的概念一模一樣"},{"start":12473.85,"end":12475.85,"text":"我沒有我意思是說"},{"start":12475.85,"end":12478.85,"text":"地方政府自主管理自己"},{"start":12478.85,"end":12480.85,"text":"只要有公權力進去"},{"start":12480.85,"end":12481.85,"text":"只要有公家部門檢驗的"},{"start":12481.85,"end":12483.85,"text":"通通都上網公告"},{"start":12484.21,"end":12486.21,"text":"這樣麥芬品項"},{"start":12486.21,"end":12488.21,"text":"全部都上網公告"},{"start":12488.38,"end":12490.38,"text":"公告周知啊"},{"start":12490.21,"end":12492.21,"text":"我覺得是一個好方法"},{"start":12492.21,"end":12493.21,"text":"個人是這樣建議"},{"start":12493.21,"end":12494.21,"text":"但是要怎麼寫"},{"start":12494.21,"end":12496.21,"text":"大家要調整一下"},{"start":12496.21,"end":12497.21,"text":"但是也要在這裡"},{"start":12497.21,"end":12499.21,"text":"請求大家同意"},{"start":12499.21,"end":12501.21,"text":"是不是可以接受這樣的概念"},{"start":12501.21,"end":12503.21,"text":"我覺得我是十分的強調"},{"start":12503.21,"end":12505.21,"text":"我在講他律"},{"start":12505.77,"end":12508.77,"text":"絕對不能仰賴業者自律"},{"start":12508.77,"end":12513.77,"text":"全部他律就是最核心就是公開透明"},{"start":12514.36,"end":12517.36,"text":"公開透明就是最好的他律的方法"},{"start":12519.1,"end":12521.1,"text":"好謝謝林委員"},{"start":12521.1,"end":12523.1,"text":"這邊是不是也先回應"},{"start":12523.1,"end":12525.1,"text":"首先謝謝委員的指教"},{"start":12525.1,"end":12527.1,"text":"針對"},{"start":12527.1,"end":12529.1,"text":"是不是建制全國單一入口"},{"start":12529.1,"end":12532.1,"text":"且登載格式一致的違反食品安全"},{"start":12532.1,"end":12534.1,"text":"食安法的資訊查詢平台"},{"start":12534.1,"end":12537.1,"text":"在115年8月5日"},{"start":12537.1,"end":12539.1,"text":"我也為了"},{"start":12539.1,"end":12541.1,"text":"我將去網委員王昭偉這邊的"},{"start":12541.1,"end":12542.1,"text":"附帶決議"},{"start":12542.1,"end":12543.1,"text":"其實有特別要求"},{"start":12543.1,"end":12546.1,"text":"所以本署的目前已經建制有"},{"start":12546.1,"end":12549.1,"text":"食品查核跟檢驗資訊的平台"},{"start":12549.1,"end":12552.1,"text":"我們公布本署專案給資訊查驗的結果"},{"start":12552.1,"end":12554.1,"text":"然後後續也會延續"},{"start":12554.1,"end":12559.1,"text":"會診全國衛生局查核檢驗的結果"},{"start":12559.1,"end":12561.1,"text":"那我以為親自主持這個會議"},{"start":12561.1,"end":12563.1,"text":"跟各個地方衛生局"},{"start":12563.1,"end":12564.1,"text":"已經做了一些交流"},{"start":12564.1,"end":12566.1,"text":"跟確定整個要去"},{"start":12566.1,"end":12570.1,"text":"接受的資訊的樣態"},{"start":12570.1,"end":12572.1,"text":"目前還持續在會診當中"},{"start":12572.1,"end":12574.1,"text":"那民眾可以透過本署的官網"},{"start":12574.1,"end":12578.1,"text":"在查詢全國衛生局查核檢驗資訊"},{"start":12578.1,"end":12580.1,"text":"能夠違法採取的情形"},{"start":12580.1,"end":12584.1,"text":"那也符合全國衛生局查驗的報告的結果"},{"start":12584.1,"end":12586.1,"text":"在公開上網的平台裡面"},{"start":12586.1,"end":12590.1,"text":"我們預計是希望在116年能夠完成這一項"},{"start":12590.1,"end":12592.1,"text":"整體的查核的結果"},{"start":12592.1,"end":12594.1,"text":"那另外衛生局檢驗結果"},{"start":12594.1,"end":12596.1,"text":"那查詢專區上線前"},{"start":12596.1,"end":12600.1,"text":"本署會將整個官網建置各衛生局"},{"start":12600.1,"end":12603.1,"text":"發佈之查驗結果的資訊的連結"},{"start":12603.1,"end":12605.1,"text":"所以也讓這樣的資訊"},{"start":12605.1,"end":12608.1,"text":"在中央跟地方的資訊的部分"},{"start":12608.1,"end":12610.1,"text":"能夠一致的能夠揭露"},{"start":12611.01,"end":12613.01,"text":"那剛剛特別提到"},{"start":12613.01,"end":12615.01,"text":"邱委員提到的"},{"start":12615.01,"end":12618.01,"text":"有關於41條之一裡面"},{"start":12618.01,"end":12620.01,"text":"以及41條之二"},{"start":12620.01,"end":12622.01,"text":"那特別對於41條之一"},{"start":12622.01,"end":12624.01,"text":"那我們建議條文裡面"},{"start":12624.01,"end":12626.01,"text":"之一條的第三項"},{"start":12626.01,"end":12629.01,"text":"那我們已經規範中央主管機關"},{"start":12629.01,"end":12632.01,"text":"得依據食品安全及風險評估等的資訊"},{"start":12632.01,"end":12635.01,"text":"我們訂定專案查核計畫"},{"start":12635.01,"end":12638.01,"text":"那因為每個查核出來的結果"},{"start":12638.01,"end":12641.01,"text":"因為它是違規的"},{"start":12641.01,"end":12642.01,"text":"我們查核出來的結果"},{"start":12642.01,"end":12645.01,"text":"就調深它的被稽查的比例"},{"start":12645.01,"end":12650.01,"text":"所以這個公佈的抽驗的比例密度"},{"start":12650.01,"end":12651.01,"text":"它其實是動態的"},{"start":12652,"end":12656,"text":"所以如果我們公告這個查驗的結果"},{"start":12656,"end":12659,"text":"是可以按照風險來去做的話"},{"start":12659,"end":12661,"text":"我想會讓各中央跟地方"},{"start":12661,"end":12663,"text":"針對這樣的查核的"},{"start":12663,"end":12666,"text":"各類抽驗的頻率的事項"},{"start":12666,"end":12669,"text":"我們就已經可以有相對的條文"},{"start":12669,"end":12670,"text":"可以做執行"},{"start":12670,"end":12672,"text":"那另外委員特別提到"},{"start":12672,"end":12674,"text":"42條之二裡面"},{"start":12674,"end":12677,"text":"41條之二裡面特別提到說"},{"start":12677,"end":12681,"text":"要兩個月內要提出行政的調查報告"},{"start":12681,"end":12684,"text":"這次也再一次的一些做說明"},{"start":12685.42,"end":12689.42,"text":"在食品要務管理署我們針對違規的事件"},{"start":12689.42,"end":12692.42,"text":"其實食品違規案件的產品下架"},{"start":12692.42,"end":12695.42,"text":"回收封存銷毀的階層處理原則"},{"start":12695.42,"end":12698.42,"text":"是106年在本委員會的時候"},{"start":12698.42,"end":12700.42,"text":"食藥署被"},{"start":12700.34,"end":12702.34,"text":"摺成要訂定規則"},{"start":12702.34,"end":12706.34,"text":"訂出來的規則其實在106年11月22日"},{"start":12706.34,"end":12710.34,"text":"其實有給各縣市衛生局非常清楚的"},{"start":12710.34,"end":12711.34,"text":"有十項"},{"start":12711.34,"end":12715.34,"text":"同時也讓當時的各委員會裡面的各個委員"},{"start":12715.34,"end":12717.34,"text":"以及我們的召委當時的召委"},{"start":12717.34,"end":12720.34,"text":"那以及都有取得相關資訊"},{"start":12720.34,"end":12723.34,"text":"因此本次中年有品的案件"},{"start":12723.34,"end":12726.34,"text":"也是按照食品違規案件產品下架"},{"start":12726.34,"end":12728.34,"text":"回收封存的原則處理"},{"start":12728.34,"end":12731.34,"text":"原則處理是因為有衛生安全標準的部分"},{"start":12731.34,"end":12733.34,"text":"他是在第一階層的下架"},{"start":12733.34,"end":12735.34,"text":"所以剛才提到的20%的部分"},{"start":12735.34,"end":12738.34,"text":"其實是在原來第一階層的下架之後"},{"start":12738.34,"end":12741.34,"text":"考量它的特殊性而增加了20%"},{"start":12741.34,"end":12744.34,"text":"那也是在整個討論裡面曾經也做說明"},{"start":12744.34,"end":12746.34,"text":"那委員也特別提到說"},{"start":12746.34,"end":12749.34,"text":"比較時間上面要公布的時間"},{"start":12749.34,"end":12750.34,"text":"特別報告一下"},{"start":12750.34,"end":12753.34,"text":"因為整個案件要去調查"},{"start":12753.34,"end":12759.34,"text":"整個違規的現在的批次等等都要花時間"},{"start":12759.34,"end":12762.34,"text":"其實我們部門大家"},{"start":12762.34,"end":12765.34,"text":"我們其實署內是動員全部體的力量"},{"start":12765.34,"end":12769.34,"text":"能夠在最短的時間把所有產品釐清"},{"start":12769.34,"end":12775.34,"text":"該是合格該下架該預防性下架之後的上架的19批次"},{"start":12775.34,"end":12778.34,"text":"那已經公告給各個地方衛生局"},{"start":12778.34,"end":12781.34,"text":"那各個地方衛生局依照權責而進行後續的"},{"start":12781.34,"end":12784.34,"text":"目前也是持續在處置當中"},{"start":12785.09,"end":12787.09,"text":"那些食品安全事件的成因"},{"start":12787.09,"end":12791.09,"text":"範圍跟相關的周期資訊分析所需要時間"},{"start":12791.09,"end":12794.09,"text":"那醫藥個案的情形其實差距其實盛大"},{"start":12794.09,"end":12798.09,"text":"如果一律按照是在兩個月的內提出完整的報告"},{"start":12798.09,"end":12800.09,"text":"恐怖隊調查尚未完備"},{"start":12800.09,"end":12802.09,"text":"而影響整個報告的正確性跟完整性"},{"start":12802.09,"end":12805.09,"text":"那這部分我們成為行政機關的部分"},{"start":12805.09,"end":12808.09,"text":"其實特別是要依照我們行政的責任"},{"start":12808.09,"end":12811.09,"text":"接受立法院的監督跟義務"},{"start":12811.09,"end":12813.09,"text":"這個是一定的"},{"start":12813.09,"end":12816.09,"text":"那尚無需於食品安全衛生管理法"},{"start":12816.09,"end":12821.09,"text":"跟訂定報告期限及送立法院的備查的規定"},{"start":12821.09,"end":12825.09,"text":"所以真的是跟委員這邊做的確切的報告"},{"start":12825.09,"end":12828.09,"text":"那在這邊是不是原意不予甄定"},{"start":12828.09,"end":12832.09,"text":"另外剛才提到的不符合的法規者"},{"start":12832.09,"end":12835.09,"text":"要如何確定之後下架預防性架這個部分"},{"start":12835.09,"end":12840.09,"text":"這個提案是有關於檢驗不符合規定者"},{"start":12840.09,"end":12845.09,"text":"因經主管機關查核同意後使得恢復上架一截"},{"start":12845.09,"end":12849.09,"text":"那建議條文其實在42條已經授權中央主管機關"},{"start":12849.09,"end":12852.09,"text":"訂定違規下架預防性下架之範圍"},{"start":12852.09,"end":12856.09,"text":"重新上架作業及其他因遵循事項的辦法"},{"start":12856.09,"end":12860.09,"text":"其實相關的規範已經有適當的授權的依據了"},{"start":12860.09,"end":12865.09,"text":"可透過執法進行一部的明定下架及重新上架"},{"start":12865.09,"end":12866.09,"text":"這些要件跟程序"},{"start":12866.09,"end":12874.09,"text":"是不是就建議不再在41條之三裡面進行一部的甄定"},{"start":12874.09,"end":12876.09,"text":"以上的說明 謝謝"},{"start":12877.02,"end":12879.02,"text":"好 謝謝 請問我言請"},{"start":12879.88,"end":12883.88,"text":"報告署長 我的個人觀念跟你講的都不一樣"},{"start":12883.88,"end":12887.88,"text":"大家都覺得單一入口登入不合格名單公佈"},{"start":12887.88,"end":12888.88,"text":"可是不合格"},{"start":12889.87,"end":12891.87,"text":"大家都覺得所在不合格名單公佈"},{"start":12891.87,"end":12894.87,"text":"你知道我講的是不管合格不合格"},{"start":12894.87,"end":12896.87,"text":"合格名單也要讓大家知道"},{"start":12896.87,"end":12899.87,"text":"然後還有人是合格的不知道"},{"start":12899.87,"end":12901.87,"text":"只知道不合格這樣就夠了嗎"},{"start":12901.87,"end":12905.87,"text":"那其實有的是根本沒有抽樣沒有檢查"},{"start":12905.87,"end":12908.87,"text":"是不是要忘了食品是抽檢"},{"start":12908.87,"end":12912.87,"text":"抽檢你抽到的有的合格有的不合格"},{"start":12912.87,"end":12914.87,"text":"你合格不合格抽出來公佈了"},{"start":12914.87,"end":12917.87,"text":"大家才知道這個有抽到合格了"},{"start":12917.87,"end":12919.87,"text":"這個抽到不合格"},{"start":12919.87,"end":12922.87,"text":"可是我的產品是不在兩個裡面的"},{"start":12924.17,"end":12928.17,"text":"所以 全部 全部每一個"},{"start":12928.17,"end":12932.17,"text":"法律上有強制要公佈嗎 都有嗎"},{"start":12932.17,"end":12936.17,"text":"各個地方政府所有的每一種檢驗都有強制"},{"start":12936.17,"end":12941.17,"text":"我要法律保留原則要求強制"},{"start":12941.75,"end":12945.75,"text":"但我要強制的不是公告不合格名單"},{"start":12946.12,"end":12949.12,"text":"只要你有公開去抽的檢驗的"},{"start":12949.12,"end":12951.12,"text":"通通一律公告"},{"start":12951.12,"end":12954.12,"text":"合格也要讓人民知道"},{"start":12954.12,"end":12956.12,"text":"我要去選這個合格的"},{"start":12956.12,"end":12958.12,"text":"如果你選的是"},{"start":12958.12,"end":12960.12,"text":"我不知道他有沒有抽過"},{"start":12960.12,"end":12962.12,"text":"我只知道他沒有不合格"},{"start":12962.12,"end":12965.12,"text":"沒有不合格有可能是沒抽到"},{"start":12967.4,"end":12969.4,"text":"這有一個落差在那裡"},{"start":12969.4,"end":12971.4,"text":"所以我們要求的是在法律裡面"},{"start":12971.4,"end":12975.4,"text":"強制各地方政府全部合格不合格都公告"},{"start":12975.4,"end":12977.4,"text":"那麼你就會知道你買的是"},{"start":12977.4,"end":12981.4,"text":"不在兩者之列從來都沒抽過的"},{"start":12982.66,"end":12984.66,"text":"那風險可能更高的"},{"start":12984.66,"end":12986.66,"text":"比不合格的風險還更高"},{"start":12988.65,"end":12991.65,"text":"所以我現在是在講說"},{"start":12991.65,"end":12994.65,"text":"這個要求所有檢驗結果"},{"start":12994.65,"end":12997.65,"text":"不管合格不合格通通一律公告"},{"start":12997.65,"end":13000.65,"text":"而且這個東西也不一定要匯整到中央來"},{"start":13000.65,"end":13002.65,"text":"地方政府檢驗這麼多"},{"start":13002.65,"end":13004.65,"text":"幹嘛全部都匯到中央來"},{"start":13004.65,"end":13008.65,"text":"地方政府法律名物規定強制公告以外"},{"start":13008.65,"end":13010.65,"text":"還強制要設專區公告"},{"start":13010.65,"end":13014.65,"text":"大家都到地方政府去一起監督"},{"start":13014.65,"end":13017.65,"text":"公開透明的接受監督"},{"start":13017.65,"end":13019.65,"text":"這樣不是很好嗎"},{"start":13019.65,"end":13022.65,"text":"這個我只是在講這一部分而已"},{"start":13022.65,"end":13027.65,"text":"那你的抽驗的比例密度專案的"},{"start":13027.65,"end":13029.65,"text":"專案的就中央主導的"},{"start":13029.65,"end":13032.65,"text":"那當然是中央要來公告"},{"start":13032.65,"end":13036.65,"text":"那你中央要不合格的全部到你那裡"},{"start":13036.65,"end":13040.65,"text":"其實不合格登錄不合格名單去查詢"},{"start":13040.65,"end":13043.65,"text":"我是覺得有時候就是我剛剛講那種盲點"},{"start":13043.65,"end":13044.65,"text":"你查到不合格的"},{"start":13044.65,"end":13047.65,"text":"可是事實上你買的產品是沒檢驗的"},{"start":13049.83,"end":13052.83,"text":"一個產品拼白可能過了十種而已"},{"start":13054.21,"end":13056.21,"text":"我現在還沒講完"},{"start":13056.21,"end":13058.21,"text":"我真的只是講公告"},{"start":13058.49,"end":13059.49,"text":"我剛剛講的是說"},{"start":13059.49,"end":13061.49,"text":"事實上這些下架要怎麼規範"},{"start":13063.18,"end":13065.18,"text":"我再溝通一遍"},{"start":13065.18,"end":13069.18,"text":"下架的資訊是風險溝通的一部分"},{"start":13069.18,"end":13072.18,"text":"你的20%之所以成為議題"},{"start":13072.18,"end":13075.18,"text":"就是你們沒有去充分的溝通"},{"start":13075.18,"end":13077.18,"text":"為什麼風險要這樣設定"},{"start":13078,"end":13081,"text":"即使他的產品可能風險不高"},{"start":13081,"end":13082,"text":"那是你講的"},{"start":13082,"end":13084,"text":"到底風險怎麼樣不知道"},{"start":13084,"end":13087,"text":"我們已經購買或使用的產品"},{"start":13087,"end":13093,"text":"如果你當時把能公開足以辨識的品名"},{"start":13093,"end":13095,"text":"批號業者下架的理由等等"},{"start":13095,"end":13098,"text":"這些資訊就相對公開透明"},{"start":13098.67,"end":13102.67,"text":"或許你下架的暫時的權宜的"},{"start":13102.67,"end":13103.67,"text":"後來可以再上去的"},{"start":13103.67,"end":13105.67,"text":"你通通都講清楚"},{"start":13105.67,"end":13110.67,"text":"下架的資訊公開是風險溝通的一部分"},{"start":13110.67,"end":13113.67,"text":"那恢復流通也應該在"},{"start":13113.67,"end":13115.67,"text":"我們在這裡法律在討論的時候"},{"start":13115.67,"end":13117.67,"text":"也要談清楚"},{"start":13117.67,"end":13119.67,"text":"包括風險的原因有沒有排除"},{"start":13119.67,"end":13121.67,"text":"檢驗合格"},{"start":13121.67,"end":13123.67,"text":"合格還不一定喔"},{"start":13124.22,"end":13126.22,"text":"然後污染的批次隔離"},{"start":13126.22,"end":13128.22,"text":"產品的流向可追溯"},{"start":13128.22,"end":13130.22,"text":"及必要的資訊公開"},{"start":13130.5,"end":13131.5,"text":"你也不能說"},{"start":13131.5,"end":13134.5,"text":"僅憑單次單一批次"},{"start":13134.5,"end":13136.5,"text":"他的復驗合格"},{"start":13137.06,"end":13139.06,"text":"就恢復販賣"},{"start":13139.06,"end":13141.06,"text":"這也太簡單了"},{"start":13141.06,"end":13143.06,"text":"單一批次"},{"start":13143.06,"end":13146.06,"text":"可是他同期進來的可能不止一個批次"},{"start":13146.06,"end":13148.06,"text":"他風險的原因"},{"start":13148.06,"end":13153.06,"text":"他的污染的隔離是不是做得周全了"},{"start":13153.06,"end":13156.06,"text":"這個都是一種風險溝通要做到的"},{"start":13156.47,"end":13158.47,"text":"那下架的範圍"},{"start":13159.25,"end":13161.25,"text":"當時要給他下架"},{"start":13161.25,"end":13163.25,"text":"那他的應該要連動到"},{"start":13163.25,"end":13165.25,"text":"批號原料的比例"},{"start":13165.25,"end":13166.25,"text":"製成的批次"},{"start":13166.25,"end":13168.25,"text":"流向的資料連動"},{"start":13168.4,"end":13172.4,"text":"可是我們現在都憑著業者提供的清測"},{"start":13172.77,"end":13177.77,"text":"業者的清測你忘了中年有史還有什麼一個統朝裡面"},{"start":13177.77,"end":13179.77,"text":"都沒有清測還隱匿"},{"start":13179.77,"end":13181.77,"text":"整個統朝"},{"start":13181.86,"end":13182.86,"text":"還隱匿"},{"start":13183.79,"end":13186.79,"text":"所以我們怎麼可以只養賣業者的清測"},{"start":13187.6,"end":13189.6,"text":"應該是主管機關"},{"start":13189.6,"end":13192.6,"text":"要求去要求完整的下游流向"},{"start":13192.6,"end":13195.6,"text":"庫存使用量產品批號與販售的數量"},{"start":13195.6,"end":13197.6,"text":"但是業者隱匿起來怎麼辦"},{"start":13199.36,"end":13201.36,"text":"中年有史就是隱匿"},{"start":13201.36,"end":13204.36,"text":"他不是一整個統朝到編號多少的統朝"},{"start":13204.36,"end":13205.36,"text":"還是一朝還兩朝"},{"start":13205.36,"end":13207.36,"text":"通通都隱匿"},{"start":13208.04,"end":13210.04,"text":"所以你要怎麼對付這種狀況"},{"start":13210.04,"end":13212.04,"text":"從重從嚴"},{"start":13212.41,"end":13213.41,"text":"那要怎麼處理"},{"start":13213.99,"end":13216.99,"text":"那你預防性的下架就是說不管風險"},{"start":13216.99,"end":13219.99,"text":"高或低有時候都還不清楚的時候"},{"start":13219.99,"end":13221.99,"text":"之所以要預防性的下架"},{"start":13221.99,"end":13224.99,"text":"就是認為就是說因為他可能很上游"},{"start":13224.99,"end":13228.99,"text":"那他的擴散影響面會很很層次很高"},{"start":13228.99,"end":13233.99,"text":"那你沒有完成全部的檢驗之前先預防性"},{"start":13233.99,"end":13240.99,"text":"但是你應該也要得先採取預防性下架或是這個限制販售"},{"start":13240.99,"end":13242.99,"text":"然後到時候再想說"},{"start":13244.72,"end":13248.72,"text":"什麼樣的條件可以確認排除風險"},{"start":13248.72,"end":13250.72,"text":"我剛剛講恢復流通的程序"},{"start":13250.72,"end":13253.72,"text":"其實我們法裡面要不要講得這麼詳細"},{"start":13253.72,"end":13255.72,"text":"或是還是全部要授權"},{"start":13255.72,"end":13258.72,"text":"因為我們在這裡其實一直都"},{"start":13258.72,"end":13261.72,"text":"都以蓋鍋授權的方式交給行政部門"},{"start":13263.27,"end":13265.27,"text":"我們在修法裡面在立法裡面"},{"start":13265.27,"end":13270.27,"text":"其實一直以來我們都蓋過的程序都授權給行政部門"},{"start":13270.27,"end":13273.27,"text":"那我們立法院自己其實應該思考"},{"start":13273.27,"end":13276.27,"text":"我們要不要把一些高度原則性的"},{"start":13276.27,"end":13279.27,"text":"應該再收回來依法明定"},{"start":13279.27,"end":13282.27,"text":"譬如說像我剛剛講的地方政府的"},{"start":13282.27,"end":13283.27,"text":"不管合格不合格"},{"start":13283.27,"end":13287.27,"text":"你地方政府折成他們全部設一個專區"},{"start":13287.27,"end":13289.27,"text":"有檢驗只要抽驗有檢驗"},{"start":13289.27,"end":13291.27,"text":"全部都合格不合格全部都公告"},{"start":13292.5,"end":13296.5,"text":"不要再授權給中央主管機關去訂定什麼規範"},{"start":13297.31,"end":13299.31,"text":"我們在法裡面就明定下來"},{"start":13300.5,"end":13302.5,"text":"這個很重要的一部分"},{"start":13302.5,"end":13306.5,"text":"跟風險管理來講很核心的管理機制"},{"start":13306.5,"end":13310.5,"text":"要依法明定克責於各級單位"},{"start":13310.5,"end":13312.5,"text":"我是這樣認為"},{"start":13312.5,"end":13315.5,"text":"我知道今天應該是沒辦法達成共識"},{"start":13315.5,"end":13316.5,"text":"先這樣子"},{"start":13317.24,"end":13319.24,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":13319.24,"end":13321.24,"text":"請問邱委員針對41條之2"},{"start":13321.24,"end":13323.24,"text":"41條之3"},{"start":13323.24,"end":13325.24,"text":"剛剛也都有合併討論過嗎"},{"start":13325.24,"end":13329.24,"text":"我們覺得因為跟行政部門好像沒辦法達成共識"},{"start":13329.24,"end":13331.24,"text":"所以我們這邊主張保留"},{"start":13331.24,"end":13333.24,"text":"先行保留"},{"start":13333.24,"end":13335.24,"text":"是不是謝謝委員"},{"start":13335.24,"end":13337.24,"text":"剛剛淑芬委員提到的部分"},{"start":13337.24,"end":13340.24,"text":"我想請我這邊是不是可以提出就是說"},{"start":13340.24,"end":13343.24,"text":"剛剛淑芬委員提到是不是我們到第五條這邊"},{"start":13343.24,"end":13345.24,"text":"我們去做一些文字上的處理"},{"start":13345.24,"end":13348.24,"text":"因為第五條這邊現行法裡面是寫的是"},{"start":13348.24,"end":13352.24,"text":"各級主管機關亦科學實證建立食品衛生安全監測體系"},{"start":13352.24,"end":13355.24,"text":"與監測發現有危害食品衛生安全之虞之事件發生時"},{"start":13355.24,"end":13359.24,"text":"應主動查驗並發佈預警或採行必要的措施"},{"start":13359.24,"end":13364.24,"text":"那前項主動查驗發佈預警或採行必要管制措施包含"},{"start":13364.24,"end":13369.24,"text":"主管機關應抽樣檢驗追查原料來源產品流向公佈檢驗結果及"},{"start":13369.24,"end":13372.24,"text":"揭露資訊並令業者自主檢驗的這個部分"},{"start":13372.24,"end":13373.24,"text":"剛剛淑芬委員提到"},{"start":13374.19,"end":13376.19,"text":"各級主管機關其實他的不論是例行的檢測"},{"start":13376.19,"end":13379.19,"text":"他依照他的這個他的需求去做監測"},{"start":13379.19,"end":13382.19,"text":"或者是他發現剛剛淑芬委員提到的"},{"start":13382.19,"end":13384.19,"text":"但是這個第五條是鎖定在不合格"},{"start":13384.19,"end":13385.19,"text":"是所以所以我原提到的"},{"start":13385.19,"end":13386.19,"text":"那我們講是不合格"},{"start":13386.19,"end":13388.19,"text":"是不是讓我們從第五條這邊"},{"start":13388.19,"end":13389.19,"text":"我們來做文字上的作修"},{"start":13389.19,"end":13390.19,"text":"只要你們要管制我就沒意見"},{"start":13390.19,"end":13393.19,"text":"但是因為第五條原條我是指鎖定不合格"},{"start":13393.19,"end":13394.19,"text":"因為這是"},{"start":13394.19,"end":13396.19,"text":"但我的概念跟他們是不一樣的"},{"start":13396.19,"end":13397.19,"text":"這是"},{"start":13398.98,"end":13400.98,"text":"剛剛念了念起來"},{"start":13400.98,"end":13401.98,"text":"我們把第五條這邊的文字"},{"start":13401.98,"end":13403.98,"text":"反正再周全他一下"},{"start":13406.42,"end":13408.42,"text":"你只要有有介入管理"},{"start":13408.42,"end":13409.42,"text":"我們要公開透明"},{"start":13409.42,"end":13411.42,"text":"我們我們在第五條這邊的條文"},{"start":13411.42,"end":13413.42,"text":"我們再回去做一些研議"},{"start":13413.42,"end":13416.42,"text":"那之後看是不是能夠符合委員這邊的要求"},{"start":13416.42,"end":13417.42,"text":"好"},{"start":13419.64,"end":13421.64,"text":"我們再重新宣告確定"},{"start":13421.64,"end":13423.64,"text":"四十一條之一保留"},{"start":13423.64,"end":13425.64,"text":"四十一條之二保留"},{"start":13425.64,"end":13427.64,"text":"四十一條之三保留"},{"start":13427.64,"end":13430.64,"text":"那行政機關對委員所提的他律方案"},{"start":13430.64,"end":13433.64,"text":"要有配套及整體制度的規劃"},{"start":13433.64,"end":13436.64,"text":"並朝公開透明的方向來處理"},{"start":13436.64,"end":13437.64,"text":"加強研議"},{"start":13437.64,"end":13441.64,"text":"好那我們繼續審查第四十二條"},{"start":13441.64,"end":13443.64,"text":"請衛福部說明"},{"start":13445.03,"end":13450.03,"text":"針對四十二條應該是就上述的四十一條"},{"start":13450.03,"end":13452.03,"text":"四十一條之一之二之三的"},{"start":13452.03,"end":13455.03,"text":"行政部門這邊特別提到說"},{"start":13455.03,"end":13457.03,"text":"成條第一項的查驗"},{"start":13457.03,"end":13461.03,"text":"查核查驗管制的同項第三款"},{"start":13461.03,"end":13463.03,"text":"第五款之下架範圍"},{"start":13463.03,"end":13467.03,"text":"至今程序與其原因消失後之處置"},{"start":13467.03,"end":13471.03,"text":"及其他因遵行事項之辦法"},{"start":13471.03,"end":13473.03,"text":"由中央主管地方定制"},{"start":13473.03,"end":13476.03,"text":"這邊因為前項可能都"},{"start":13476.03,"end":13478.03,"text":"前條都有做一些保留"},{"start":13478.03,"end":13482.03,"text":"是不是這邊也容我們一併來做後續的一些研議"},{"start":13483.42,"end":13486.42,"text":"四十二條就保留"},{"start":13488.13,"end":13494.13,"text":"好那針對新增四十二條之二"},{"start":13494.13,"end":13497.13,"text":"也請衛福部先說明"},{"start":13501.54,"end":13503.54,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":13504.03,"end":13507.03,"text":"我歡迎四十二條之二"},{"start":13507.03,"end":13510.03,"text":"那我們研議的情形看到"},{"start":13510.03,"end":13512.03,"text":"包括各個黨團提出來"},{"start":13512.03,"end":13514.03,"text":"局委員的提出來"},{"start":13514.03,"end":13516.03,"text":"重點是在預防性架架之範圍"},{"start":13516.03,"end":13518.03,"text":"執行程序跟補償"},{"start":13518.03,"end":13522.03,"text":"主管機關應採取的措施或接獲預報"},{"start":13522.03,"end":13526.03,"text":"預通報之後七十二小時內完成官方的復驗"},{"start":13526.03,"end":13530.03,"text":"並對業者的通報資訊予以保密"},{"start":13530.03,"end":13534.03,"text":"經查核逐認無危害食品安全"},{"start":13534.03,"end":13537.03,"text":"食品衛生安全之餘者"},{"start":13537.03,"end":13539.03,"text":"應解除原處分主管機關"},{"start":13539.03,"end":13545.03,"text":"應將處置的情形同步傳送至食品安全資訊平台"},{"start":13545.03,"end":13549.03,"text":"訂定官方復驗風險分級公布內容"},{"start":13549.03,"end":13551.03,"text":"預防性下架"},{"start":13551.03,"end":13553.03,"text":"名譽復歸"},{"start":13553.03,"end":13557.03,"text":"易腐敗食品之補償損害賠償"},{"start":13557.03,"end":13561.03,"text":"也非常紓困其他應遵循的事項的辦理"},{"start":13561.03,"end":13565.03,"text":"因為考量各個提案的納入法律的意旨"},{"start":13565.03,"end":13567.03,"text":"部分已經納入我們剛才討論的條文裡面"},{"start":13567.03,"end":13572.03,"text":"以及後續會討論的56條之一"},{"start":13572.03,"end":13575.03,"text":"部分得以42條授權執法規"},{"start":13575.03,"end":13579.03,"text":"訂定下架階層及重新上架處理的原則"},{"start":13579.03,"end":13582.03,"text":"及其他應遵循的事項辦法"},{"start":13582.03,"end":13586.03,"text":"因為部分事項如果要七十四小時完成官方復驗"},{"start":13586.03,"end":13588.03,"text":"必須要審訊整個執行上面"},{"start":13588.03,"end":13590.03,"text":"有些檢驗需要有的時間"},{"start":13590.03,"end":13592.03,"text":"可能在特定的時間"},{"start":13592.03,"end":13594.03,"text":"四六小時不見得能夠完成"},{"start":13594.03,"end":13596.03,"text":"所以這邊是不是建議"},{"start":13596.03,"end":13598.03,"text":"能夠在其他地方處理不予爭議"},{"start":13598.03,"end":13600.03,"text":"不予爭議"},{"start":13601.59,"end":13603.59,"text":"拜拜 求為人情"},{"start":13603.38,"end":13605.38,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":13605.38,"end":13607.38,"text":"那我們關於42條之二"},{"start":13607.38,"end":13609.38,"text":"最主要就是"},{"start":13609.4,"end":13612.4,"text":"也是針對這次的中聯由子事件"},{"start":13612.4,"end":13614.4,"text":"所提出的一個鎮定的修法"},{"start":13614.4,"end":13618.4,"text":"那當然就是當主管機關或地方主管機關"},{"start":13618.4,"end":13622.4,"text":"知道說食物再出自檢驗不符合標準"},{"start":13622.4,"end":13624.4,"text":"那這時候我們主張的"},{"start":13624.4,"end":13626.4,"text":"就是為了保障人民"},{"start":13626.78,"end":13628.78,"text":"食安"},{"start":13628.45,"end":13630.45,"text":"的問題"},{"start":13630.45,"end":13632.45,"text":"所以我們主張就要全面性的"},{"start":13632.45,"end":13634.45,"text":"預防性的下架這樣子"},{"start":13634.66,"end":13636.66,"text":"接著要採取第二層的行動"},{"start":13636.66,"end":13640.66,"text":"就是立即啟動全面的抽驗追溯"},{"start":13640.66,"end":13642.66,"text":"還有封存的機制"},{"start":13642.66,"end":13644.66,"text":"才能夠保障人民的食安"},{"start":13644.66,"end":13646.66,"text":"那如果搭配這樣的一個原則"},{"start":13646.66,"end":13648.66,"text":"我們有一個處罰條款"},{"start":13648.66,"end":13650.66,"text":"如果沒有預防性下架"},{"start":13650.66,"end":13652.66,"text":"那在第三項就會有一個罰則"},{"start":13652.66,"end":13654.66,"text":"而且"},{"start":13654.63,"end":13656.63,"text":"這個業者的名稱"},{"start":13656.63,"end":13658.63,"text":"還有負責任的姓名違規事實"},{"start":13658.63,"end":13660.63,"text":"都要一併的來給他公告"},{"start":13660.63,"end":13662.63,"text":"然後跟接受進一步的行政裁罰"},{"start":13662.63,"end":13664.63,"text":"那當然"},{"start":13666.46,"end":13668.46,"text":"有疑慮當然就先全面性的"},{"start":13668.46,"end":13670.46,"text":"預防性下架"},{"start":13670.46,"end":13672.46,"text":"但是如果72小時"},{"start":13672.46,"end":13674.46,"text":"之內有完成復驗的話"},{"start":13674.46,"end":13676.46,"text":"那如果復驗的結果是安全無虞的"},{"start":13676.46,"end":13678.46,"text":"當然就解除這樣的"},{"start":13678.46,"end":13680.46,"text":"預防性下架"},{"start":13680.46,"end":13682.46,"text":"那如果不OK那當然進一步"},{"start":13682.46,"end":13684.46,"text":"就會採取另外一個行動就是銷毀"},{"start":13684.46,"end":13686.46,"text":"那其實這些機制"},{"start":13686.46,"end":13688.46,"text":"就是針對這次的中原油脂事件"},{"start":13688.46,"end":13690.46,"text":"給我們的一個啟示"},{"start":13690.46,"end":13692.46,"text":"所以我們就藉由這一次的"},{"start":13692.46,"end":13694.46,"text":"修法來彌補這樣的一個"},{"start":13694.46,"end":13696.46,"text":"漏洞以上說明謝謝"},{"start":13697.4,"end":13699.4,"text":"好那還沒期待委員"},{"start":13699.4,"end":13701.4,"text":"呃要發言"},{"start":13701.74,"end":13703.74,"text":"如果沒有的話我們是不是先請"},{"start":13703.74,"end":13705.74,"text":"呃微博這邊也先作為回應"},{"start":13705.74,"end":13707.74,"text":"好謝謝委員喔"},{"start":13707.74,"end":13709.74,"text":"我們在呃這個72小時"},{"start":13709.74,"end":13711.74,"text":"這邊還是請委員呃"},{"start":13711.74,"end":13713.74,"text":"參考量喔因為"},{"start":13713.74,"end":13715.74,"text":"有一些像如果是已經"},{"start":13715.74,"end":13717.74,"text":"既定有相關的檢驗標準"},{"start":13717.74,"end":13719.74,"text":"的我們大概可以在72小時之內"},{"start":13719.74,"end":13721.74,"text":"完成可是某些大概"},{"start":13721.74,"end":13723.74,"text":"有他的這個這可能會導致"},{"start":13723.74,"end":13725.74,"text":"有些檢查有困難喔舉例來說"},{"start":13725.74,"end":13727.74,"text":"像之前的幫客列栓"},{"start":13727.74,"end":13729.74,"text":"幫客列栓那個食品安全"},{"start":13729.74,"end":13731.74,"text":"的案子他是剛好國內"},{"start":13731.74,"end":13733.74,"text":"還有"},{"start":13733.35,"end":13735.35,"text":"一個機構有標準品"},{"start":13735.35,"end":13737.35,"text":"所以我們有辦法很快的速度"},{"start":13737.35,"end":13739.35,"text":"去把它驗出來喔但是"},{"start":13739.35,"end":13741.35,"text":"如果說他剛好是在一些特定的"},{"start":13741.35,"end":13743.35,"text":"呃項目那國內"},{"start":13743.35,"end":13745.35,"text":"沒有標準品或國內還沒有檢驗"},{"start":13745.35,"end":13747.35,"text":"的標準的時候這個72小時可能"},{"start":13747.35,"end":13749.35,"text":"會導致就是說檢驗的"},{"start":13749.35,"end":13751.35,"text":"不正確性而導致後續剛委員"},{"start":13751.35,"end":13753.35,"text":"要求的這些銷毀處理受到"},{"start":13753.35,"end":13755.35,"text":"業者受到一定程度的這個這個影響"},{"start":13755.35,"end":13757.35,"text":"喔或者是沒有辦法立刻"},{"start":13757.35,"end":13759.35,"text":"出來好像我們之前"},{"start":13759.35,"end":13761.35,"text":"也曾經有一個食品安全的案件"},{"start":13761.35,"end":13763.35,"text":"那是小米粽的案件"},{"start":13763.35,"end":13765.35,"text":"那小米粽的案件那一次是我們"},{"start":13765.35,"end":13767.35,"text":"呃在我們的相關"},{"start":13767.35,"end":13769.35,"text":"檢檢組他很快的速度裡面"},{"start":13769.35,"end":13771.35,"text":"去跑發現說他有他有一個沒有"},{"start":13771.35,"end":13773.35,"text":"預期會在那裡面出現的農藥"},{"start":13773.35,"end":13775.35,"text":"那但是如果"},{"start":13775.28,"end":13777.28,"text":"但是但是在我們我想委員在臨床待過喔"},{"start":13777.28,"end":13779.28,"text":"那有些細菌或病毒"},{"start":13779.28,"end":13781.28,"text":"甚至有一些像像"},{"start":13781.28,"end":13783.28,"text":"邦克瑞酸這一類的東西他的他的檢驗"},{"start":13783.28,"end":13785.28,"text":"那個他的那個培養時間"},{"start":13785.28,"end":13787.28,"text":"真的很難確定在72小時之內"},{"start":13787.28,"end":13789.28,"text":"完成喔那72小時這個"},{"start":13789.28,"end":13791.28,"text":"時間點真的會導致後面的"},{"start":13791.28,"end":13793.28,"text":"很多重要的行政程序自在難行或者是"},{"start":13793.28,"end":13795.28,"text":"導致我們行政程序上面的"},{"start":13795.28,"end":13797.28,"text":"一些粗糙這邊還是要滿還是"},{"start":13797.28,"end":13799.28,"text":"要請委員考量喔謝謝"},{"start":13800.78,"end":13802.78,"text":"那我回覆一下喔因為那個"},{"start":13802.78,"end":13804.78,"text":"剛我們的次長這樣回覆感覺"},{"start":13804.78,"end":13806.78,"text":"1 2 3 像"},{"start":13806.43,"end":13808.43,"text":"好像都沒問題那只如果只剩下"},{"start":13808.43,"end":13810.43,"text":"72小時的問題當然我們"},{"start":13810.43,"end":13812.43,"text":"可以針對呃"},{"start":13812.43,"end":13814.43,"text":"事實的可能性嘛當然"},{"start":13814.43,"end":13816.43,"text":"我們不可能要求如果檢驗"},{"start":13816.43,"end":13818.43,"text":"的呃可能性上"},{"start":13818.43,"end":13820.43,"text":"不可能那我們強人所難"},{"start":13820.43,"end":13822.43,"text":"當然這個我們可以"},{"start":13822.43,"end":13824.43,"text":"予以通盤的來做一些調整"},{"start":13824.43,"end":13826.43,"text":"如果只是時間的問題"},{"start":13826.43,"end":13828.43,"text":"然後搭配這個"},{"start":13828.43,"end":13830.43,"text":"到底檢驗出來的可行性"},{"start":13830.43,"end":13832.43,"text":"或不可行這個我們當然可以"},{"start":13832.43,"end":13834.43,"text":"來做一個調整但是"},{"start":13834.43,"end":13836.43,"text":"我們主張的不是只有這個小時的"},{"start":13836.43,"end":13838.43,"text":"問題我們還有第一項第二項第三項"},{"start":13838.43,"end":13840.43,"text":"整體這邊我們都還是"},{"start":13840.43,"end":13842.43,"text":"堅持的主張這樣以上說明謝謝"},{"start":13842.43,"end":13844.43,"text":"剛剛其實呃署長也已經回覆了"},{"start":13844.43,"end":13846.43,"text":"就是說其他的條文事實上"},{"start":13846.43,"end":13848.43,"text":"在原條文的41條42條"},{"start":13848.43,"end":13850.43,"text":"就我們剛剛保留這些部分"},{"start":13850.43,"end":13852.43,"text":"還有我們後面會討論到第56條"},{"start":13852.43,"end":13854.43,"text":"之一喔呃其實在"},{"start":13854.43,"end":13856.43,"text":"其中都已經有寫入喔是不是"},{"start":13856.43,"end":13858.43,"text":"我們因為現在也保留嘛我們"},{"start":13858.43,"end":13860.43,"text":"我們後續再跟委員再去確認是不是內部"},{"start":13860.43,"end":13862.43,"text":"都已經完成好不好好"},{"start":13862.43,"end":13864.43,"text":"所以呃42"},{"start":13864.43,"end":13866.43,"text":"也先行保留"},{"start":13866.43,"end":13868.43,"text":"那麻煩再做後續處理"},{"start":13868.43,"end":13870.43,"text":"那因本案條文"},{"start":13870.43,"end":13872.43,"text":"有許多修法意見之起義"},{"start":13872.43,"end":13874.43,"text":"上代部會先跟"},{"start":13874.43,"end":13876.43,"text":"提案委員說明與溝通"},{"start":13876.43,"end":13878.43,"text":"呃而且"},{"start":13878.43,"end":13880.43,"text":"為了要因應這次的"},{"start":13880.43,"end":13882.43,"text":"強台就是牆壁颱風"},{"start":13882.43,"end":13884.43,"text":"各項的這些防災的準備"},{"start":13884.43,"end":13886.43,"text":"我們很多的委員都很關心"},{"start":13886.43,"end":13888.43,"text":"地方的防災也需要"},{"start":13888.43,"end":13890.43,"text":"能夠回到地方協助"},{"start":13890.43,"end":13892.43,"text":"整個防災的準備喔所以"},{"start":13892.43,"end":13894.43,"text":"呃我們也當然期待天佑"},{"start":13894.43,"end":13896.43,"text":"臺灣喔不要讓這次颱風"},{"start":13896.43,"end":13898.43,"text":"對臺灣造成重大的影響"},{"start":13898.43,"end":13900.43,"text":"那請問各位委員我們今天的"},{"start":13900.43,"end":13902.43,"text":"審查是不是就先進行"},{"start":13902.43,"end":13904.43,"text":"到此"},{"start":13904.49,"end":13906.49,"text":"請問委員有沒有"},{"start":13906.57,"end":13908.57,"text":"不同意見"},{"start":13908.32,"end":13910.32,"text":"好那我們就先行進行到此"},{"start":13910.32,"end":13912.32,"text":"如果無意義那我們就做以下決議"},{"start":13912.32,"end":13914.32,"text":"審查及繼續審查"},{"start":13914.32,"end":13916.32,"text":"行政院含請審議"},{"start":13916.32,"end":13918.32,"text":"食品安全衛生管理法"},{"start":13918.32,"end":13920.32,"text":"部分條文修正查案"},{"start":13920.32,"end":13922.32,"text":"等"},{"start":13921.94,"end":13923.94,"text":"等六十案上位"},{"start":13923.94,"end":13925.94,"text":"審查完畢令哲啟"},{"start":13925.94,"end":13927.94,"text":"繼續審查本次會議"},{"start":13927.94,"end":13929.94,"text":"到此結束現在"},{"start":13929.94,"end":13931.94,"text":"上會"},{"start":13951.14,"end":13953.14,"text":"我直接帶走"},{"start":13964.77,"end":13966.77,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":13971.47,"end":13973.47,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":13974,"end":13976,"text":"謝謝大家"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}