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勞動部首長"},{"start":1421.2099999999998,"end":1423.57,"text":"數位發展部首長及交通部首長就"},{"start":1423.57,"end":1427.6499999999999,"text":"公平會就跨境事業併關之結合審查機制"},{"start":1427.6499999999999,"end":1430.1299999999999,"text":"市府納入複雜股權結構"},{"start":1430.1299999999999,"end":1432.09,"text":"勞動權益與資安風險等考量"},{"start":1432.09,"end":1433.9699999999998,"text":"進行報告並被執行宣傳筆"},{"start":1435.75,"end":1437.7299999999998,"text":"那我們介紹在場的"},{"start":1437.7299999999998,"end":1439.59,"text":"獵襲機關首長"},{"start":1439.59,"end":1442.75,"text":"首先是公平教育委員會代理主任委員陳志明"},{"start":1442.75,"end":1443.51,"text":"陳主委"},{"start":1444.58,"end":1447.3,"text":"然後是經濟部投資審議司的"},{"start":1447.3,"end":1448.98,"text":"蘇奇彥"},{"start":1448.98,"end":1449.54,"text":"蘇司長"},{"start":1451.07,"end":1452.27,"text":"在後面"},{"start":1452.27,"end":1455.55,"text":"然後商業發展署的顏和慶副組長"},{"start":1455.55,"end":1456.67,"text":"歡迎您"},{"start":1456.67,"end":1460.11,"text":"接下來是勞動部李建宏政務次長"},{"start":1460.11,"end":1460.51,"text":"歡迎"},{"start":1461.2,"end":1464.92,"text":"以及數位發展部楊佳麟政務次長"},{"start":1464.92,"end":1465.3600000000001,"text":"歡迎您"},{"start":1466.75,"end":1470.9099999999999,"text":"有數位產業署的黃雅萍副組長"},{"start":1470.9099999999999,"end":1471.31,"text":"歡迎"},{"start":1472.27,"end":1475.8700000000001,"text":"以及資通安全署的陳慧萍主任秘書"},{"start":1475.8700000000001,"end":1476.39,"text":"歡迎"},{"start":1476.96,"end":1480.64,"text":"以及交通部公共運輸及監理司的"},{"start":1480.64,"end":1482.6000000000001,"text":"胡迪奇市長"},{"start":1483.34,"end":1484.34,"text":"歡迎"},{"start":1485.14,"end":1485.64,"text":"那麼"},{"start":1486.27,"end":1487.27,"text":"那本日議程呢"},{"start":1487.27,"end":1492.27,"text":"排定公評會就跨境事業並購案之結合審查機制"},{"start":1492.77,"end":1494.77,"text":"是否納入複雜股權結構"},{"start":1494.77,"end":1498.77,"text":"勞動權益與資安風險等考量進行報告並被質詢"},{"start":1499.27,"end":1503.27,"text":"那首先我們就請公評交友委員會代理主任委員陳子銘報告"},{"start":1513.04,"end":1514.04,"text":"好,主席"},{"start":1514.78,"end":1516.78,"text":"各位與會的"},{"start":1517.8,"end":1518.8,"text":"先進,大家好"},{"start":1519.3,"end":1522.8,"text":"今天很高興能夠代表公評會來到進委會"},{"start":1522.8,"end":1526.8,"text":"針對公評會針對跨境事業的結合案"},{"start":1526.8,"end":1529.8,"text":"是不是處理複雜的股權結構還有勞"},{"start":1530.8,"end":1535.8,"text":"跟與資安跟國安還有勞動問題的一個議題來提出報告"},{"start":1536.3,"end":1538.8,"text":"那首先我先簡單講一下公評會對於"},{"start":1539.53,"end":1541.53,"text":"跨境事業結合審查的一些基本架構"},{"start":1542.53,"end":1543.53,"text":"我們對於跨境事業"},{"start":1543.53,"end":1549.53,"text":"特別是跨境事業的股權之間的控制跟掌控的一個議題"},{"start":1549.53,"end":1551.53,"text":"其實在法規裡面都有一些基本的規定"},{"start":1552.64,"end":1555.64,"text":"那從最基本的什麼叫公評法要處理的結合"},{"start":1555.64,"end":1559.64,"text":"那個結合定義裡面在我們公評法第十條已經有五款的規定"},{"start":1559.64,"end":1562.64,"text":"其中的第二款已經寫得很清楚"},{"start":1562.64,"end":1566.64,"text":"就是假設你的持股比例超過三分之一的話"},{"start":1566.64,"end":1568.64,"text":"那原則上就會構成我們所謂的結合"},{"start":1568.64,"end":1570.64,"text":"就有可能會被公評會審查"},{"start":1570.64,"end":1574.64,"text":"那我們在計算那個股份持股是不是超過三分之一的部分"},{"start":1574.64,"end":1580.64,"text":"我們會把屬於控制跟從屬關係事業的持股一併的納入計算"},{"start":1580.64,"end":1586.64,"text":"那透過這種方式是比較可以反映出結合事業真正的一個市場的經濟力"},{"start":1586.64,"end":1588.64,"text":"那接下來如果符合結合以後"},{"start":1588.64,"end":1590.64,"text":"我們就會進入到所謂的實質審查"},{"start":1590.64,"end":1592.64,"text":"那實質審查有實質審查的門檻"},{"start":1592.64,"end":1597.64,"text":"目前公評法裡面是採取市占率跟所謂的銷售金額兩個門檻"},{"start":1598.98,"end":1600.98,"text":"那不管是用市占率來算"},{"start":1600.98,"end":1602.98,"text":"或是用銷售金額來算"},{"start":1602.98,"end":1605.98,"text":"在我們的公評加以法第十一條裡面都有規定"},{"start":1605.98,"end":1609.98,"text":"對於具有控制跟從屬關係的事業他的市占率"},{"start":1609.98,"end":1612.98,"text":"還有他的營業額我們都要一併的納入計算"},{"start":1612.98,"end":1617.98,"text":"所以這個其實間接的也就讓公評會可以針對所謂的比較複雜"},{"start":1617.98,"end":1619.98,"text":"或是具有控制關係的這些股權"},{"start":1619.98,"end":1622.98,"text":"還有這個市占率競爭因素等等可以納入考慮"},{"start":1622.98,"end":1625.98,"text":"所以這大概是一個基本的一個架構"},{"start":1625.98,"end":1630.98,"text":"那當然有時候我們會遇到一些案子是不符合三分之一的規定"},{"start":1630.98,"end":1635.98,"text":"但是事實上這些案子可能都會涉及到競爭者之間有相互的交叉持股"},{"start":1635.98,"end":1640.98,"text":"就如同我們昨天公佈的這個規格表案一樣"},{"start":1640.98,"end":1643.98,"text":"那這個部分我們的審查方式就是把這種"},{"start":1645.32,"end":1650.32,"text":"競爭者之間有跨公司持股的議題把它轉換在我們的競爭審查當中"},{"start":1650.32,"end":1655.32,"text":"我們會去分析到底這個會不會對市場競爭造成損害"},{"start":1655.32,"end":1660.32,"text":"所以原則上來講股權的結構都會納入到我們結合的審查裡面"},{"start":1660.32,"end":1665.32,"text":"那當然我們可以發現到這個跨國併購這個股權的分層結構越來越複雜"},{"start":1665.32,"end":1670.32,"text":"所以未來我們可預見的應該會有更多類似這種所謂交叉持股的案子會進來"},{"start":1670.32,"end":1676.32,"text":"那對這個部分公佈會向來除了在公平法的規定底下去行使自己的職權以外"},{"start":1676.32,"end":1681.32,"text":"我們也通常在審查的時候會積極的要求這個業者必須要透明"},{"start":1681.32,"end":1685.32,"text":"把他們真正之間的股權架構盡可能要公開給我們"},{"start":1685.32,"end":1689.32,"text":"以利我們做進一步的競爭的審查"},{"start":1689.91,"end":1692.91,"text":"那在符合這些條件以後我們進入實質審查以後"},{"start":1692.91,"end":1696.91,"text":"我們的考慮因素會因為結合的類型而有所不一樣"},{"start":1696.91,"end":1700.91,"text":"譬如說假設是水平結合涉及到競爭者之間的一個結合案件"},{"start":1700.91,"end":1704.91,"text":"那我們會深入去分析到底市場的集中度有沒有變化"},{"start":1704.91,"end":1711.91,"text":"那在這個變化的市場集中度底下結合以後市場的價格效果就是單方效果會不會漲價"},{"start":1711.91,"end":1717.91,"text":"那是不是有利於業者之間特別是競爭者之間來進行所謂的聯合行為"},{"start":1717.91,"end":1721.91,"text":"那就是市場越來越集中業者要進行聯合行為是不是更方便"},{"start":1721.91,"end":1724.91,"text":"那當然我們也會考慮到是不是有所謂的反制制衡的力量"},{"start":1724.91,"end":1729.91,"text":"市場上的潛在競爭足不足以來消滅這樣的一個市場力量"},{"start":1729.91,"end":1733.91,"text":"那另外就是我們也會考慮到結合所帶來的效率"},{"start":1733.91,"end":1736.91,"text":"有時候結合可以帶動業者的創新降低成本"},{"start":1736.91,"end":1738.91,"text":"我們通常都會並合的考慮"},{"start":1738.91,"end":1741.91,"text":"那垂直結合的部分就會有不同的分析架構"},{"start":1741.91,"end":1744.91,"text":"通常我們在垂直結合上下游之間業者的結合"},{"start":1744.91,"end":1749.91,"text":"我們就會考慮到結合以後會不會讓業者更有能力去實施市場封鎖跟排除的效果"},{"start":1749.91,"end":1753.91,"text":"那另外最後一個多角化結合就是跨業異業的結合"},{"start":1753.91,"end":1758.91,"text":"那這部分我們看看這個結合是不是會對潛在的競爭者本來是可以成為競爭的"},{"start":1758.91,"end":1760.91,"text":"後來變成不競爭"},{"start":1760.91,"end":1762.91,"text":"所以這基本上大概是我們審查的架構"},{"start":1762.91,"end":1765.91,"text":"那在經過市政的調查跟效果的評估以後呢"},{"start":1765.91,"end":1769.91,"text":"我們最後判斷的標準是規定在公平交易法第十三條"},{"start":1769.91,"end":1772.91,"text":"我們會綜合去判斷到底限制競爭的不利益"},{"start":1772.91,"end":1775.91,"text":"跟所謂的整體經濟利益兩者之間疏大疏小"},{"start":1777.44,"end":1780.44,"text":"那如果整體競爭利益是可以大過限制競爭的不利益"},{"start":1780.44,"end":1783.44,"text":"那即使說這個結合可能有一些競爭的疑慮"},{"start":1783.44,"end":1786.44,"text":"但是顯然這個狹不掩瑜"},{"start":1786.44,"end":1789.44,"text":"所以我們可能就會通過這個結合案"},{"start":1789.44,"end":1793.44,"text":"或者是在大部分情況底下我們會用附負擔或附條件的方式"},{"start":1793.44,"end":1800.44,"text":"把我們對這個結合案的關切的點變成是要求業者必須要履行的負擔或條件來通過這個結合案"},{"start":1800.44,"end":1804.44,"text":"那當然另外一種方式就是就是全然的禁止這樣的結合案"},{"start":1804.44,"end":1806.44,"text":"所以我們的判準大概是這樣子"},{"start":1806.44,"end":1809.44,"text":"最後針對另外一個議題就是有關國安跟資安的部分"},{"start":1809.44,"end":1813.44,"text":"首先這個部分因為目前在我國的法律架構底下"},{"start":1813.44,"end":1815.44,"text":"其實都有相關的主管機關在負責審查"},{"start":1815.44,"end":1818.44,"text":"所以公平會通常不會去進行這部分的審查"},{"start":1818.44,"end":1822.44,"text":"那也許在那種情況有一種情況底下就是當資安"},{"start":1822.44,"end":1826.44,"text":"譬如說隱私權的保護他可以被連結到競爭的議題"},{"start":1827,"end":1832,"text":"就是隱私權的保護他可能成為業者實施反競爭行為的一個工具"},{"start":1832,"end":1834,"text":"那這個時候也許我們會進入成這樣"},{"start":1834,"end":1838,"text":"但是目前在我們實務上大部分的主張資安國安這個議題"},{"start":1838,"end":1841,"text":"通常就是針對資安國安本身獨立的議題"},{"start":1841,"end":1844,"text":"比較少去談論到事實上在個案裡面我們也很少看到說"},{"start":1844,"end":1847,"text":"國安資安會變成是一個競爭有關的議題"},{"start":1847,"end":1849,"text":"不過公平會立場大概就是我們出發點"},{"start":1849,"end":1854,"text":"不管是非競爭的議題我們會從他是不是跟競爭有關聯性這個角度"},{"start":1854,"end":1857,"text":"如果他有明顯的關係我們才會進入審查"},{"start":1857,"end":1861,"text":"否則的話我們會尊重其他主管機關的一個審查的權限"},{"start":1861,"end":1864,"text":"那我以上做簡單的報告請委員多多指教謝謝"},{"start":1865.17,"end":1871.17,"text":"好謝謝陳主任委員接下來請經濟部投資審議司蘇奇諺書長"},{"start":1882.43,"end":1884.43,"text":"主席各位委員大家好"},{"start":1884.43,"end":1888.43,"text":"今天經濟部就針對外資來台投資審查"},{"start":1888.43,"end":1891.43,"text":"以及企業併購的部分做一個簡要的說明"},{"start":1891.43,"end":1894.43,"text":"那再請各位委員先進不吝赤腳"},{"start":1895.78,"end":1901.78,"text":"第一點重大投資會經過我們跨部會投資審議會的一個審查"},{"start":1901.78,"end":1905.78,"text":"那經濟部為了要處理投資技術合作"},{"start":1906.95,"end":1911.95,"text":"特別有設立一個投資審議會來作為審查"},{"start":1911.95,"end":1916.95,"text":"僑外投資、陸資投資、對國外跟對大陸投資的一個審查平台"},{"start":1916.95,"end":1922.95,"text":"那審議會的委員有包括國安會、陸委會、勞動部、數位部等等"},{"start":1922.95,"end":1924.95,"text":"是九個部會的一個副首長"},{"start":1924.95,"end":1927.95,"text":"那本部也會是案件的需要"},{"start":1927.95,"end":1931.95,"text":"必要時會再提到審議會做一個重整的一個"},{"start":1931.95,"end":1935.95,"text":"重整各機關意見來做一個審慎的一個准駁"},{"start":1935.95,"end":1938.95,"text":"那第二點跨境事業併購適用的法規部分"},{"start":1938.95,"end":1942.95,"text":"外資投資主要是適用外國人投資條例的規定"},{"start":1942.95,"end":1945.95,"text":"那這邊除了有定義投資的定義之外"},{"start":1945.95,"end":1949.95,"text":"另外針對同條例第七條也有規定說"},{"start":1949.95,"end":1953.95,"text":"對國家安全、公共秩序、善良風俗、國民健康"},{"start":1954.62,"end":1956.62,"text":"或者其他法律禁止投資的事業"},{"start":1956.62,"end":1958.62,"text":"投資人申請投資"},{"start":1959.6,"end":1962.6,"text":"的部分我們可以禁止投資"},{"start":1962.6,"end":1967.6,"text":"那在那個投資人如果是投資在法律或基於法律授權"},{"start":1967.6,"end":1968.6,"text":"訂定的一個命令"},{"start":1968.6,"end":1973.6,"text":"而限制的投資事業我們必須要先取得目的事業主管機關的許可"},{"start":1975.58,"end":1976.58,"text":"那根據第八條的規定"},{"start":1976.58,"end":1980.58,"text":"投資人也要依照這個條例事先申請許可"},{"start":1980.58,"end":1982.58,"text":"經過核准之後才能投資"},{"start":1983.01,"end":1987.01,"text":"那在入資投資的部分主要是依據兩岸條例的規定"},{"start":1987.01,"end":1991.01,"text":"那兩岸條例另外有在授權訂立一個大陸地區人民乃台"},{"start":1991.8,"end":1993.8,"text":"投資許可辦法的規定"},{"start":1993.8,"end":1996.8,"text":"那這個規定所定義的投資人"},{"start":1996.8,"end":2000.8,"text":"除了大陸的公司自然人之外"},{"start":2001.91,"end":2005.91,"text":"還有包括直接間接持有第三地公司股權"},{"start":2005.91,"end":2008.91,"text":"包括超過30%或者具有"},{"start":2009.99,"end":2010.99,"text":"控制能力的"},{"start":2010.99,"end":2014.99,"text":"那如果這部分就不適用外國人投資條例的規定"},{"start":2016.52,"end":2018.52,"text":"那還有一個是七月訂購法的規定"},{"start":2019.04,"end":2021.04,"text":"這部分主要是"},{"start":2021.57,"end":2023.57,"text":"規範公司進行"},{"start":2024,"end":2025,"text":"法定程序"},{"start":2025.4,"end":2028.4,"text":"內部治理還有利害關係人全力的保障"},{"start":2032.95,"end":2033.95,"text":"第三點"},{"start":2034.54,"end":2036.54,"text":"外資入資來台投資的案件"},{"start":2036.54,"end":2038.54,"text":"都要事先申請許可"},{"start":2039.59,"end":2042.59,"text":"那本部在受理案件的時候都會"},{"start":2042.59,"end":2045.59,"text":"先審查他的上層股權結構確認他"},{"start":2045.59,"end":2047.59,"text":"是不是符合入資的規定"},{"start":2047.59,"end":2050.59,"text":"那除了股權形式上的股權審查之外"},{"start":2050.59,"end":2054.59,"text":"也會納入實質控制能力的一個認定標準"},{"start":2055.95,"end":2057.95,"text":"所以陳上"},{"start":2058.67,"end":2060.67,"text":"就申請來台投資案件的話"},{"start":2060.95,"end":2062.95,"text":"我們除了依法律規定"},{"start":2063.62,"end":2065.62,"text":"及個案具體情形"},{"start":2065.62,"end":2066.62,"text":"橫著規範目的"},{"start":2066.62,"end":2067.62,"text":"共共利益"},{"start":2068.41,"end":2071.41,"text":"政府政策事業建立計畫等等必要考量因素之外"},{"start":2072.83,"end":2076.83,"text":"也會就跨部會審查評估"},{"start":2076.83,"end":2078.83,"text":"投資案是否有國家安全"},{"start":2078.83,"end":2079.83,"text":"公共秩序"},{"start":2079.83,"end":2082.83,"text":"善良風俗國民健康等不利影響的情形"},{"start":2082.83,"end":2085.83,"text":"來做是否同意的決定"},{"start":2085.83,"end":2087.83,"text":"那入資的投資案"},{"start":2088.78,"end":2090.78,"text":"另外有針對"},{"start":2091.05,"end":2093.05,"text":"投資人具有黨政軍背景的話"},{"start":2093.05,"end":2095.05,"text":"也會要限制他的"},{"start":2095.05,"end":2097.05,"text":"投資"},{"start":2098.53,"end":2100.53,"text":"那如果有經濟上具有"},{"start":2100.53,"end":2102.53,"text":"獨佔寡佔壟斷性地位"},{"start":2103.39,"end":2105.39,"text":"或者"},{"start":2104.55,"end":2106.55,"text":"政治社會文化上有敏感性"},{"start":2106.55,"end":2108.55,"text":"或影響國家安全"},{"start":2109.06,"end":2111.06,"text":"或者對"},{"start":2110.78,"end":2112.78,"text":"國內經濟發展"},{"start":2112.78,"end":2114.78,"text":"金融穩定有不利影響的情形"},{"start":2114.78,"end":2116.78,"text":"的限制或禁止"},{"start":2118.27,"end":2120.27,"text":"最後針對"},{"start":2121.01,"end":2123.01,"text":"跨國併購案件"},{"start":2123.29,"end":2125.29,"text":"我們會考量他對國家安全"},{"start":2126.29,"end":2128.29,"text":"經濟發展的影響"},{"start":2128.04,"end":2130.04,"text":"那如果另外涉及到"},{"start":2130.04,"end":2132.04,"text":"公平交易"},{"start":2131.42,"end":2133.42,"text":"所稱的失業結合的部分"},{"start":2133.71,"end":2135.71,"text":"我們也會會商公民會的意見"},{"start":2135.71,"end":2137.71,"text":"那如果涉及到併購法"},{"start":2137.71,"end":2139.71,"text":"勞工權益的部分"},{"start":2139.71,"end":2141.71,"text":"也會會商勞動部的意見"},{"start":2143.27,"end":2145.27,"text":"那如果有涉及到收集"},{"start":2145.7,"end":2147.7,"text":"大量擱置者"},{"start":2147.43,"end":2149.43,"text":"我們也會再"},{"start":2149.43,"end":2151.43,"text":"洽詢蘇惠部的意見"},{"start":2151.38,"end":2153.38,"text":"那最後在面對跨境併購"},{"start":2153.38,"end":2155.38,"text":"日益複雜的股權安排及"},{"start":2155.38,"end":2157.38,"text":"國家安全勞動權益等"},{"start":2157.38,"end":2159.38,"text":"資安的新興議題"},{"start":2159.38,"end":2161.38,"text":"本部將持續透過跨部會審查機制"},{"start":2161.38,"end":2163.38,"text":"審慎把關"},{"start":2163.06,"end":2167.06,"text":"並視國際情勢產業發展及實務需求"},{"start":2167.06,"end":2169.06,"text":"視時間到進行相關的審查作業及配套措施"},{"start":2169.06,"end":2171.06,"text":"確保投資"},{"start":2171.89,"end":2173.89,"text":"持續維護國家安全及產業競爭力"},{"start":2173.89,"end":2175.89,"text":"並兼顧我國產整體經濟利益的發展"},{"start":2175.89,"end":2177.89,"text":"以上報告"},{"start":2177.89,"end":2179.89,"text":"請委員指教"},{"start":2179.9,"end":2181.9,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":2182.23,"end":2184.23,"text":"投資審議司蘇執長"},{"start":2184.23,"end":2186.23,"text":"接下來有請勞動部政務次長李建宏報到"},{"start":2191.09,"end":2193.09,"text":"主席各位委員"},{"start":2193.09,"end":2195.09,"text":"大家早安"},{"start":2195.09,"end":2197.09,"text":"那勞動部以下就這個跨境事業併購"},{"start":2197.09,"end":2199.09,"text":"案涉及到勞動權益的部分"},{"start":2199.09,"end":2201.09,"text":"來做報告"},{"start":2201.09,"end":2203.09,"text":"首先我分三個部分"},{"start":2203.09,"end":2205.09,"text":"第一部分就是說"},{"start":2205.09,"end":2207.09,"text":"在企業併購案如果是涉及到"},{"start":2207.09,"end":2209.09,"text":"流用勞工"},{"start":2209.09,"end":2211.09,"text":"他的這個權益的時候"},{"start":2211.09,"end":2213.09,"text":"目前勞動部"},{"start":2213.09,"end":2215.09,"text":"在相關的法規方面"},{"start":2215.09,"end":2217.09,"text":"是要看"},{"start":2217.09,"end":2219.09,"text":"這個併購的組織形態"},{"start":2219.09,"end":2221.09,"text":"然後併購的方式還有個案的情況"},{"start":2221.09,"end":2223.09,"text":"要分別來看"},{"start":2223.09,"end":2225.09,"text":"適用是勞基法"},{"start":2225.09,"end":2227.09,"text":"通常是勞基法20條"},{"start":2227.09,"end":2229.09,"text":"或者是企業併購法17條到19條"},{"start":2229.09,"end":2231.09,"text":"還有金融機構合併法"},{"start":2231.09,"end":2233.09,"text":"那麼這些相關法令"},{"start":2233.09,"end":2235.09,"text":"裡面都會涉及到"},{"start":2235.09,"end":2237.09,"text":"勞工的勞動條件"},{"start":2237.09,"end":2239.09,"text":"工作年資還有"},{"start":2239.09,"end":2241.09,"text":"支遣費還有其他的權益"},{"start":2241.09,"end":2243.09,"text":"好這第一點在法規方面"},{"start":2243.09,"end":2245.09,"text":"第二點呢"},{"start":2245.93,"end":2247.93,"text":"在這個如果就像剛剛我們"},{"start":2247.93,"end":2249.93,"text":"那個投審司司長講的"},{"start":2249.93,"end":2251.93,"text":"如果這個相關的"},{"start":2251.93,"end":2253.93,"text":"審查機關"},{"start":2253.93,"end":2255.93,"text":"他在審查的時候要"},{"start":2255.93,"end":2257.93,"text":"要求勞動部要提出這個"},{"start":2257.93,"end":2259.93,"text":"審查有關勞工權益的"},{"start":2259.93,"end":2261.93,"text":"部分的時候勞動部呢"},{"start":2261.93,"end":2263.93,"text":"通常會提出的"},{"start":2263.93,"end":2265.93,"text":"意見主要有兩個部分"},{"start":2265.93,"end":2267.93,"text":"第一個我們勞動部"},{"start":2267.93,"end":2269.93,"text":"會要求在"},{"start":2269.93,"end":2271.93,"text":"針對這個併購方針對"},{"start":2271.93,"end":2273.93,"text":"流用勞工的部分不可以"},{"start":2273.93,"end":2275.93,"text":"來片面變更"},{"start":2275.93,"end":2277.93,"text":"流用勞工的這個勞動條件"},{"start":2277.93,"end":2279.93,"text":"又或者也不可以"},{"start":2279.93,"end":2281.93,"text":"來任意的支遣勞工"},{"start":2282.92,"end":2284.92,"text":"第二點勞動部也會"},{"start":2284.92,"end":2286.92,"text":"提出意見要求"},{"start":2286.92,"end":2288.92,"text":"併購方在這個"},{"start":2288.92,"end":2290.92,"text":"併購過程必須要來"},{"start":2290.92,"end":2292.92,"text":"尊重工會自主"},{"start":2292.92,"end":2294.92,"text":"然後聆聽這個"},{"start":2294.92,"end":2296.92,"text":"勞工會的意見而且要"},{"start":2296.92,"end":2298.92,"text":"善盡這個誠信協商的"},{"start":2298.92,"end":2300.92,"text":"這個義務另外勞動"},{"start":2300.92,"end":2302.92,"text":"部呢在這個併購過程"},{"start":2302.92,"end":2304.92,"text":"也會來適時的協助"},{"start":2304.92,"end":2306.92,"text":"地方政府"},{"start":2306.92,"end":2308.92,"text":"勞工局處來介入"},{"start":2308.92,"end":2310.92,"text":"這個勞資"},{"start":2310.92,"end":2312.92,"text":"協商的過程來輔導勞資雙方"},{"start":2312.92,"end":2314.92,"text":"避免在這個"},{"start":2314.92,"end":2316.92,"text":"併購過程發生勞資"},{"start":2316.92,"end":2318.92,"text":"爭議事件"},{"start":2320.15,"end":2322.15,"text":"通常在企業併購過程"},{"start":2322.15,"end":2324.15,"text":"因為往往會涉及到"},{"start":2324.15,"end":2326.15,"text":"事業經營的這個組織變動"},{"start":2326.15,"end":2328.15,"text":"這樣的組織變動呢"},{"start":2328.18,"end":2330.18,"text":"常常會引發勞工對未來"},{"start":2330.18,"end":2332.18,"text":"工作的安排"},{"start":2332.18,"end":2334.18,"text":"還有勞動權利的很高度的"},{"start":2334.18,"end":2336.18,"text":"這個疑慮"},{"start":2335.39,"end":2337.39,"text":"所以在併購過程中"},{"start":2337.39,"end":2339.39,"text":"勞工部一貫的原則"},{"start":2339.39,"end":2341.39,"text":"就是要"},{"start":2341.39,"end":2343.39,"text":"會經常的來提醒"},{"start":2343.39,"end":2345.39,"text":"甚至要求"},{"start":2345.39,"end":2347.39,"text":"事業單位要"},{"start":2346.83,"end":2348.83,"text":"也就併購方應該要充分的"},{"start":2348.83,"end":2350.83,"text":"來關注"},{"start":2350.83,"end":2352.83,"text":"勞工的意見"},{"start":2352.83,"end":2354.83,"text":"聆聽工會的這個"},{"start":2354.83,"end":2356.83,"text":"想法"},{"start":2356.83,"end":2358.83,"text":"主動傾聽勞工的訴求"},{"start":2358.83,"end":2360.83,"text":"跟工會"},{"start":2360.83,"end":2362.83,"text":"還有勞工代表來做良好的"},{"start":2362.83,"end":2364.83,"text":"溝通還有誠信協商"},{"start":2364.83,"end":2366.83,"text":"針對勞工的流用"},{"start":2366.83,"end":2368.83,"text":"勞動條件"},{"start":2368.83,"end":2370.83,"text":"年資承認這些事項來做"},{"start":2370.83,"end":2372.83,"text":"充分的協商"},{"start":2372.83,"end":2374.83,"text":"然後回應勞工的疑慮"},{"start":2374.83,"end":2376.83,"text":"那避免這個"},{"start":2376.83,"end":2378.83,"text":"在併購過程中因為勞工的資訊"},{"start":2378.83,"end":2380.83,"text":"比較不對稱"},{"start":2380.83,"end":2382.83,"text":"會引發很多的這個爭議情況"},{"start":2382.83,"end":2384.83,"text":"那以上就是勞動部針對"},{"start":2384.83,"end":2386.83,"text":"這個併購過程"},{"start":2386.83,"end":2388.83,"text":"跨境事業併購的三個意見"},{"start":2388.83,"end":2390.83,"text":"以上謝謝"},{"start":2390.92,"end":2392.92,"text":"好謝謝勞動部理事長"},{"start":2392.92,"end":2394.92,"text":"接下來有請數位發展部的"},{"start":2394.92,"end":2396.92,"text":"政務次長楊嘉玲"},{"start":2399.75,"end":2401.75,"text":"主席各位委員早安"},{"start":2401.75,"end":2403.75,"text":"那我現在就數發部對於"},{"start":2403.75,"end":2405.75,"text":"這個案件這個併購案"},{"start":2405.75,"end":2407.75,"text":"所有的業務跟各位做一個簡短的報告"},{"start":2407.75,"end":2409.75,"text":"那首先這個併購案裡面的"},{"start":2409.75,"end":2411.75,"text":"富邦大市"},{"start":2411.75,"end":2413.75,"text":"主要是經營外送平台提供餐飲"},{"start":2413.75,"end":2415.75,"text":"還有商品線上的訂購服務"},{"start":2415.75,"end":2417.75,"text":"並媒合消費者合作店家"},{"start":2417.75,"end":2419.75,"text":"還有外送人員完成配送"},{"start":2419.75,"end":2421.75,"text":"還有經營第三方支付的"},{"start":2421.75,"end":2423.75,"text":"服務所以是數發部"},{"start":2423.75,"end":2425.75,"text":"所管轄的"},{"start":2425.75,"end":2427.75,"text":"這個第三方支付的服務業者"},{"start":2427.75,"end":2429.75,"text":"那在這個併購案中我們主要的角色"},{"start":2429.75,"end":2431.75,"text":"就是來"},{"start":2431.75,"end":2433.75,"text":"協助經濟部在"},{"start":2433.75,"end":2435.75,"text":"案件中關於國安各自"},{"start":2435.75,"end":2437.75,"text":"疑慮等事項提供"},{"start":2437.75,"end":2439.75,"text":"審查的意見"},{"start":2439.75,"end":2441.75,"text":"所以主要是兩個面向"},{"start":2441.75,"end":2443.75,"text":"第一個面向是第三方支付"},{"start":2443.75,"end":2445.75,"text":"服務的範疇"},{"start":2445.75,"end":2447.75,"text":"所以我們建議經濟部應具體要求"},{"start":2447.75,"end":2449.75,"text":"業者符合我國法規"},{"start":2449.75,"end":2451.75,"text":"規範那明確告知"},{"start":2451.75,"end":2453.75,"text":"當事人資料傳輸地區"},{"start":2453.75,"end":2455.75,"text":"且不得為目的外"},{"start":2455.75,"end":2457.75,"text":"之利用或請經濟部評估"},{"start":2457.75,"end":2459.75,"text":"是否要求業者"},{"start":2459.75,"end":2461.75,"text":"之個人資料因於我國"},{"start":2461.75,"end":2463.75,"text":"境內落地儲存或不得"},{"start":2463.75,"end":2465.75,"text":"使用阿里雲及任何"},{"start":2465.75,"end":2467.75,"text":"中國雲端服務以杜絕"},{"start":2467.75,"end":2469.75,"text":"跨境資源資安風險"},{"start":2469.75,"end":2471.75,"text":"並落實法尊那第二個面向"},{"start":2471.75,"end":2473.75,"text":"最主要是在自通安全的範疇"},{"start":2473.75,"end":2475.75,"text":"那麼數發部在一一五年"},{"start":2475.75,"end":2477.75,"text":"五月中下旬就陸續"},{"start":2477.75,"end":2479.75,"text":"協助經濟部就"},{"start":2479.75,"end":2481.75,"text":"收購FUPONDA案件"},{"start":2481.75,"end":2483.75,"text":"提供意見那經濟部"},{"start":2483.75,"end":2485.75,"text":"已要求GRAP就我國"},{"start":2485.75,"end":2487.75,"text":"用戶資料保護機制補充說明"},{"start":2487.75,"end":2489.75,"text":"針對GRAP所回應"},{"start":2489.75,"end":2491.75,"text":"資料管理及隱私保護"},{"start":2491.75,"end":2493.75,"text":"機制數發部已建議"},{"start":2493.75,"end":2495.75,"text":"經濟部要求禁止大陸"},{"start":2495.75,"end":2497.75,"text":"地區直接或間接"},{"start":2497.75,"end":2499.75,"text":"連接存有我國用戶資料"},{"start":2499.75,"end":2501.75,"text":"資料中心一不得由"},{"start":2501.75,"end":2503.75,"text":"大陸地區關係企業"},{"start":2503.75,"end":2505.75,"text":"人員存取另外"},{"start":2505.75,"end":2507.75,"text":"經濟部所提供GRAP"},{"start":2507.75,"end":2509.75,"text":"是相關說明GRAP與"},{"start":2509.75,"end":2511.75,"text":"中國華為花瓣地圖"},{"start":2511.75,"end":2513.75,"text":"合作僅限於東南亞"},{"start":2513.75,"end":2515.75,"text":"八國不含我國"},{"start":2515.75,"end":2517.75,"text":"且未規劃我國市場相關合作"},{"start":2517.75,"end":2519.75,"text":"那麼未來亦將"},{"start":2519.75,"end":2521.75,"text":"維持現行安排"},{"start":2521.75,"end":2523.75,"text":"所以以上就是我們這邊"},{"start":2523.75,"end":2525.75,"text":"跟經濟部協助所提供的意見"},{"start":2525.75,"end":2527.75,"text":"那後續有什麼需要數發部來"},{"start":2527.75,"end":2529.75,"text":"就這個資安隱私的議題需要協助的地方"},{"start":2529.75,"end":2531.75,"text":"我們會盡全力的來配合"},{"start":2531.75,"end":2533.75,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":2533.3,"end":2535.3,"text":"好謝謝數發部"},{"start":2535.3,"end":2537.3,"text":"不過還是要提醒一下"},{"start":2537.3,"end":2539.3,"text":"因為我們今天的專案報告"},{"start":2539.3,"end":2541.3,"text":"不是針對個案"},{"start":2541.3,"end":2543.3,"text":"我們的專報是針對跨境併購"},{"start":2543.3,"end":2545.3,"text":"可能衍生的包括資安"},{"start":2545.3,"end":2547.3,"text":"的風險在內"},{"start":2547.3,"end":2549.3,"text":"那當然剛剛數發部他的"},{"start":2549.3,"end":2551.3,"text":"報告內容都是針對FUBENDA跟GRAP"},{"start":2551.3,"end":2553.3,"text":"但事實上我們關切的是"},{"start":2553.3,"end":2555.3,"text":"跨境併購當中在通案上"},{"start":2555.3,"end":2557.3,"text":"可能遇到的資安風險"},{"start":2557.3,"end":2559.3,"text":"那這個後續請數發部"},{"start":2559.3,"end":2561.3,"text":"可以再就補充的書面資料來"},{"start":2561.3,"end":2563.3,"text":"好本會"},{"start":2563.3,"end":2565.3,"text":"那麼事實上為什麼我們說這不是個案"},{"start":2565.3,"end":2567.3,"text":"因為本個案如果是"},{"start":2567.3,"end":2569.3,"text":"數發部所指稱的個案"},{"start":2569.3,"end":2571.3,"text":"在昨天公平交易委員會的新聞資料裡面"},{"start":2571.3,"end":2573.3,"text":"公平會已經明白的禁止GRAP"},{"start":2573.3,"end":2575.3,"text":"跟FUBENDA公司的結合"},{"start":2575.3,"end":2577.3,"text":"已經否准了這個GRAP的申請"},{"start":2577.3,"end":2579.3,"text":"所以今天如果我們是討論"},{"start":2579.3,"end":2581.3,"text":"個案事實上大可不必"},{"start":2581.3,"end":2583.3,"text":"但是我們是就可能的個案"},{"start":2583.3,"end":2585.3,"text":"來討論通案的檢討情況"},{"start":2585.3,"end":2587.3,"text":"這一點在接下來委員的"},{"start":2587.3,"end":2589.3,"text":"質詢當中請相關的"},{"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Eats收購"},{"start":2682.3,"end":2684.3,"text":"FuPanda現在又禁止了Grab收購"},{"start":2684.3,"end":2686.3,"text":"FuPanda到底我們有沒有"},{"start":2686.3,"end":2688.3,"text":"實際去了解FuPanda對於"},{"start":2688.3,"end":2690.3,"text":"經營台灣市場的意向"},{"start":2690.3,"end":2692.3,"text":"到底是如何"},{"start":2692.3,"end":2694.3,"text":"或者是說"},{"start":2694.3,"end":2696.3,"text":"其實Uber也公開"},{"start":2696.3,"end":2698.3,"text":"也說明了他們其實是想要"},{"start":2698.3,"end":2700.3,"text":"直接收購"},{"start":2700.3,"end":2702.3,"text":"這個delivery"},{"start":2702.3,"end":2704.3,"text":"Hero"},{"start":2705.38,"end":2707.38,"text":"所以他要直接從他的母公司"},{"start":2707.38,"end":2709.38,"text":"去做收購喔"},{"start":2709.71,"end":2711.71,"text":"到底我們公評會有沒有去做過這樣的一個評估"},{"start":2711.71,"end":2713.71,"text":"我們擋下了這樣的一個"},{"start":2713.71,"end":2715.71,"text":"併購案"},{"start":2715.71,"end":2717.71,"text":"那接下來呢"},{"start":2716.92,"end":2718.92,"text":"FuPanda的整個經營的意願是什麼"},{"start":2718.92,"end":2720.92,"text":"如果到最後"},{"start":2720.92,"end":2722.92,"text":"FuPanda直接放棄台灣市場"},{"start":2722.92,"end":2724.92,"text":"那其實前面的審查"},{"start":2724.92,"end":2726.92,"text":"都是多餘的嘛"},{"start":2726.92,"end":2728.92,"text":"他未來還是可能只剩下一個Uber Eats"},{"start":2728.92,"end":2730.92,"text":"又或者是他的母公司"},{"start":2730.92,"end":2732.92,"text":"整個直接被Uber Eats"},{"start":2732.92,"end":2734.92,"text":"收購了那未來的整個"},{"start":2734.92,"end":2736.92,"text":"外送的市場還是只有"},{"start":2736.92,"end":2738.92,"text":"Uber Eats"},{"start":2738.92,"end":2740.92,"text":"那公評會如何面對這樣子未來有可能的"},{"start":2742.26,"end":2744.26,"text":"不管是競爭態勢"},{"start":2744.26,"end":2746.26,"text":"或者是未來有可能的市場發展"},{"start":2746.26,"end":2748.26,"text":"公評會怎麼看"},{"start":2748.26,"end":2750.26,"text":"跟委員報告就是昨天在討論"},{"start":2750.26,"end":2752.26,"text":"花了很長的時間在討論這個案子"},{"start":2752.26,"end":2754.26,"text":"其實委員關切的議題在委員會裡面"},{"start":2754.26,"end":2756.26,"text":"我們都有做了一些討論"},{"start":2756.26,"end":2758.26,"text":"那最後"},{"start":2758.26,"end":2760.26,"text":"因為稍微說一下你們討論的這個"},{"start":2760.26,"end":2762.26,"text":"概況到如果真的有這樣的"},{"start":2762.26,"end":2764.26,"text":"狀況發生的時候"},{"start":2764.26,"end":2766.26,"text":"我接下來要跟委員報告就是說"},{"start":2766.26,"end":2768.26,"text":"其實我們當然也知道外界的關切"},{"start":2768.26,"end":2770.26,"text":"就是假設這個案子禁止以後"},{"start":2770.26,"end":2772.26,"text":"Foodpanda可能就不願意再經營"},{"start":2772.26,"end":2774.26,"text":"那Uber可能會變成獨裁"},{"start":2774.26,"end":2776.26,"text":"那委員也充分表達意見"},{"start":2776.26,"end":2778.26,"text":"那基本上我們的立場"},{"start":2778.26,"end":2780.26,"text":"委員的立場是認為說"},{"start":2780.26,"end":2782.26,"text":"你的委員是你們的審查委員"},{"start":2782.26,"end":2784.26,"text":"對不對"},{"start":2784.26,"end":2786.26,"text":"你把審查兩個字帶進去"},{"start":2786.26,"end":2788.26,"text":"這樣人家會以為是我充分表達我的意見"},{"start":2788.26,"end":2790.26,"text":"多數委員我們審查多數審查委員"},{"start":2790.26,"end":2792.26,"text":"是認為說這個東西是一個不確定的因素"},{"start":2792.26,"end":2794.26,"text":"那對於各案的審查來講"},{"start":2794.26,"end":2796.26,"text":"我想多數委員還是傾向於說"},{"start":2796.26,"end":2798.26,"text":"以既有的現況來做一些分析"},{"start":2798.26,"end":2800.26,"text":"跟評估"},{"start":2800.26,"end":2802.26,"text":"所以我們有注意到這個問題"},{"start":2802.26,"end":2804.26,"text":"但是最後做決定的時候"},{"start":2804.26,"end":2806.26,"text":"我們是認為說這個都還在進行式當中"},{"start":2806.26,"end":2808.26,"text":"或者是說未來一些不確定的因素"},{"start":2808.26,"end":2810.26,"text":"所以並沒有再繼續深入的去探討這個問題"},{"start":2810.26,"end":2812.26,"text":"所以才會做出這個決定"},{"start":2812.26,"end":2814.26,"text":"好來我請一下經濟部好不好"},{"start":2819.18,"end":2821.18,"text":"那投審司"},{"start":2821.18,"end":2823.18,"text":"來投審司"},{"start":2822.47,"end":2824.47,"text":"好"},{"start":2823.92,"end":2825.92,"text":"那國研好"},{"start":2841.96,"end":2845.96,"text":"如果Uber的全球收購持續推進的話"},{"start":2846.38,"end":2848.38,"text":"那假如FUPENTA在台灣的業務"},{"start":2848.38,"end":2850.38,"text":"因為這個母公司的交易層級"},{"start":2850.38,"end":2852.38,"text":"去把它停掉了"},{"start":2852.38,"end":2854.38,"text":"它已經整個就併到了"},{"start":2854.38,"end":2856.38,"text":"這個Uber的系統裡頭去了"},{"start":2857.99,"end":2860.99,"text":"你覺得台灣或者是說經濟部這裡"},{"start":2860.99,"end":2863.99,"text":"你們會如何面對這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":2863.99,"end":2865.99,"text":"然後會有什麼樣的討論"},{"start":2865.99,"end":2867.99,"text":"或者是什麼樣的因應之道"},{"start":2869.01,"end":2871.01,"text":"首先跟委員報告"},{"start":2871.01,"end":2873.01,"text":"就是之前我們確實有先了解說"},{"start":2873.01,"end":2877.01,"text":"在Uber在收購FUPENTA母公司的一個狀況"},{"start":2877.01,"end":2881.01,"text":"那我們得到的答覆初步是認為說"},{"start":2881.01,"end":2885.01,"text":"在當時因為那個Grab已經有"},{"start":2885.31,"end":2887.31,"text":"啟動收購案了"},{"start":2887.31,"end":2891.31,"text":"那這個部分在收購FUPENTA母公司的部分"},{"start":2891.31,"end":2893.31,"text":"是排除掉台灣業務的"},{"start":2893.31,"end":2895.31,"text":"那現在的狀況當然就因為"},{"start":2895.31,"end":2897.31,"text":"看起來Grab是不可能"},{"start":2897.31,"end":2899.31,"text":"所以你們了解的時候是因為Grab要來收購FUPENTA"},{"start":2899.31,"end":2905.31,"text":"所以他們Uber在收購Delivery Hero的時候"},{"start":2905.31,"end":2907.31,"text":"他就直接排除掉台灣的市場"},{"start":2907.31,"end":2911.31,"text":"那現在的狀況已經不一樣了"},{"start":2911.31,"end":2913.31,"text":"我們駁回了Grab的收購計畫"},{"start":2913.31,"end":2915.31,"text":"那未來"},{"start":2915.74,"end":2919.74,"text":"Uber Eats在整個收購母公司的計畫裡頭"},{"start":2919.74,"end":2923.74,"text":"會不會納入台灣的市場的考量"},{"start":2923.74,"end":2924.74,"text":"這個部分呢"},{"start":2924.74,"end":2926.74,"text":"這個有沒有事先去做過評估"},{"start":2926.74,"end":2928.74,"text":"或者是事先去做過了解"},{"start":2928.74,"end":2931.74,"text":"或是好有可能這個事情是昨天才發生"},{"start":2931.74,"end":2933.74,"text":"所以未來你們的整個"},{"start":2934.23,"end":2936.23,"text":"英明的狀況評估的報告"},{"start":2937.9,"end":2939.9,"text":"這個部分經濟部都會透過"},{"start":2939.9,"end":2941.9,"text":"所謂的像比如說我們去收集"},{"start":2941.9,"end":2943.9,"text":"國際的一些併購的商情"},{"start":2943.9,"end":2945.9,"text":"那如果說確認說"},{"start":2945.9,"end":2947.9,"text":"可能會包括在台灣"},{"start":2947.9,"end":2949.9,"text":"或者還不確定的情況"},{"start":2949.9,"end":2953.9,"text":"我們會先去跟Uber的代理人去了解"},{"start":2953.9,"end":2957.9,"text":"說這個案子未來是怎麼樣的處置"},{"start":2957.9,"end":2959.9,"text":"那就經濟部本身"},{"start":2959.9,"end":2961.9,"text":"因為我們是外資的審查"},{"start":2961.9,"end":2963.9,"text":"所以說即使是上層股東的變動"},{"start":2963.9,"end":2965.9,"text":"我們主要還是確認說"},{"start":2965.9,"end":2968.9,"text":"他是不是維持外資的一個身份"},{"start":2969.66,"end":2972.66,"text":"對那當然他如果說確定會變更的話"},{"start":2972.66,"end":2974.66,"text":"那就可能會涉及到"},{"start":2974.66,"end":2977.66,"text":"FuPenta本身在台灣的投資計畫"},{"start":2977.66,"end":2978.66,"text":"可能會有變更"},{"start":2978.66,"end":2981.66,"text":"那我們可能會再請原本FuPenta的"},{"start":2981.66,"end":2984.66,"text":"投資人來做一個說明"},{"start":2984.66,"end":2986.66,"text":"不過因為這個部分"},{"start":2986.66,"end":2988.66,"text":"可能主要的重點還是會回歸到"},{"start":2988.66,"end":2991.66,"text":"如果Uber併了FuPenta的母公司"},{"start":2991.66,"end":2993.66,"text":"那一樣會有事業結合的問題"},{"start":2993.66,"end":2995.66,"text":"可能重點還是會在這個部分"},{"start":2995.66,"end":2998.66,"text":"所以我這個也是我要請教公評會"},{"start":2998.66,"end":3001.66,"text":"就是說我們現在當然只處理"},{"start":3001.66,"end":3003.66,"text":"我現在眼前看到的"},{"start":3003.66,"end":3004.66,"text":"我現在眼前收的件"},{"start":3004.66,"end":3006.66,"text":"就是Grab要去收購FuPenta"},{"start":3006.66,"end":3009.66,"text":"那將來在整個經濟市場的變動"},{"start":3009.66,"end":3011.66,"text":"整個外送市場的變動之下"},{"start":3011.66,"end":3013.66,"text":"併購風潮的變動之下"},{"start":3013.66,"end":3016.66,"text":"如果Uber直接就去收購了他的母公司"},{"start":3016.66,"end":3018.66,"text":"那未來"},{"start":3019.99,"end":3022.99,"text":"還是有可能會有這樣的狀況出現"},{"start":3022.99,"end":3023.99,"text":"那這個時候已經"},{"start":3023.99,"end":3026.99,"text":"他根本就不需要送公評會處理啦"},{"start":3026.99,"end":3027.99,"text":"因為他就是已經"},{"start":3027.99,"end":3029.99,"text":"直接是Uber宣稱的交通"},{"start":3029.99,"end":3030.99,"text":"昨天討論的時候"},{"start":3030.99,"end":3031.99,"text":"這個議題其實我們也有討論到啦"},{"start":3031.99,"end":3032.99,"text":"不過就是說"},{"start":3032.99,"end":3033.99,"text":"跟委員報告一下就是說"},{"start":3033.99,"end":3034.99,"text":"當然你現在無法預估"},{"start":3034.99,"end":3035.99,"text":"未來的狀況"},{"start":3035.99,"end":3036.99,"text":"我們是無法預估"},{"start":3036.99,"end":3038.99,"text":"然後另外就是針對委員提出來"},{"start":3038.99,"end":3041.99,"text":"Uber全球收購Deliver Hero這個案子"},{"start":3041.99,"end":3042.99,"text":"目前沒錯"},{"start":3042.99,"end":3043.99,"text":"他是透過公開收購"},{"start":3043.99,"end":3046.99,"text":"來收購他在德國母公司的股權"},{"start":3046.99,"end":3047.99,"text":"但是因為這個案子"},{"start":3047.99,"end":3050.99,"text":"將來還是要經過競爭主管機關的協和可才可以"},{"start":3050.99,"end":3051.99,"text":"所以他有可能在德國"},{"start":3051.99,"end":3052.99,"text":"在其他歐盟的國家"},{"start":3052.99,"end":3054.99,"text":"他必須要接受競爭的審查"},{"start":3054.99,"end":3055.99,"text":"第二點就是說"},{"start":3055.99,"end":3057.99,"text":"因為事實上我們之前已經進了"},{"start":3058.89,"end":3060.89,"text":"Uber收購FUPENTA"},{"start":3060.89,"end":3061.89,"text":"所以這樣的結合行為"},{"start":3061.89,"end":3062.89,"text":"將來如果真的發生"},{"start":3062.89,"end":3065.89,"text":"他其實也要受我們法規的約束"},{"start":3065.89,"end":3066.89,"text":"所以公評會還是有"},{"start":3066.89,"end":3067.89,"text":"在法律上有空間"},{"start":3067.89,"end":3069.89,"text":"可以來針對這個收購行為"},{"start":3069.89,"end":3072.89,"text":"來認定他在公評法上的一個效果"},{"start":3072.89,"end":3073.89,"text":"所以這大概是昨天"},{"start":3073.89,"end":3074.89,"text":"我們在審查的時候"},{"start":3074.89,"end":3075.89,"text":"多數審查委員的意見"},{"start":3075.89,"end":3076.89,"text":"大概是這樣子"},{"start":3076.89,"end":3078.89,"text":"所以就是我剛剛跟他講"},{"start":3078.89,"end":3079.89,"text":"不確定因素我們不考慮"},{"start":3079.89,"end":3080.89,"text":"但是對這個東西"},{"start":3080.89,"end":3081.89,"text":"我們會去思考"},{"start":3081.89,"end":3082.89,"text":"法規上是不是"},{"start":3082.89,"end":3085.89,"text":"我們還有一些著墨跟回應的空間"},{"start":3085.89,"end":3086.89,"text":"好 了解"},{"start":3086.89,"end":3088.89,"text":"這個當然大家也會非常的關心"},{"start":3088.89,"end":3089.89,"text":"未來走到最後會不會"},{"start":3089.89,"end":3090.89,"text":"還是真的變成"},{"start":3090.89,"end":3092.89,"text":"只有Uber一家獨大"},{"start":3092.89,"end":3093.89,"text":"那這個寡占市場"},{"start":3093.89,"end":3095.89,"text":"包括外送員的權利"},{"start":3095.89,"end":3099.89,"text":"包括商家的利益 抽成等等"},{"start":3099.89,"end":3101.89,"text":"各式各樣的這些法規保護"},{"start":3101.89,"end":3103.89,"text":"未來如果變成一家獨大的時候"},{"start":3103.89,"end":3105.89,"text":"我們應該怎麼樣去做因應面對"},{"start":3105.89,"end":3106.89,"text":"這個可能也是將來"},{"start":3106.89,"end":3108.89,"text":"我們要持續去討論的地方"},{"start":3108.89,"end":3110.89,"text":"是 我們會持續的觀察"},{"start":3110.89,"end":3112.89,"text":"好 另外我想再請教一下"},{"start":3112.89,"end":3114.89,"text":"第二個部分"},{"start":3115.89,"end":3116.89,"text":"這個我不曉得主委"},{"start":3116.89,"end":3119.89,"text":"您有沒有看過這樣的一個廣告"},{"start":3119.89,"end":3123.89,"text":"就是KIA這個汽車公司"},{"start":3123.89,"end":3125.89,"text":"它的這個廣告宣傳"},{"start":3125.89,"end":3128.89,"text":"它說這個KIA的Sportage"},{"start":3128.89,"end":3132.89,"text":"是歐洲撞擊五顆星安全認證"},{"start":3133.6,"end":3135.6,"text":"可是後來發現了其實"},{"start":3135.6,"end":3137.6,"text":"它交到台灣來的這一輛車"},{"start":3137.6,"end":3141.6,"text":"跟它在歐洲送驗的車型車款"},{"start":3141.6,"end":3142.6,"text":"包括內裝等等"},{"start":3142.6,"end":3143.6,"text":"其實是完全"},{"start":3144.65,"end":3145.65,"text":"不是說完全的"},{"start":3145.65,"end":3147.65,"text":"大部分是不太一樣的"},{"start":3147.65,"end":3148.65,"text":"所以呢"},{"start":3148.65,"end":3150.65,"text":"我們台灣交通部的"},{"start":3150.65,"end":3152.65,"text":"新車安全平等報告"},{"start":3152.65,"end":3154.65,"text":"只給了它兩顆星"},{"start":3155.43,"end":3157.43,"text":"我們今天有交通部的官員嗎"},{"start":3159.11,"end":3162.11,"text":"公共運輸及監理司長是不是"},{"start":3162.11,"end":3164.11,"text":"是不是先跟委員報告一下"},{"start":3164.11,"end":3165.11,"text":"這個案子我們已經處分了"},{"start":3165.11,"end":3166.11,"text":"我知道你們處分了"},{"start":3166.11,"end":3167.11,"text":"我現在要談的是說"},{"start":3168.39,"end":3170.39,"text":"我當然知道你們處分了"},{"start":3170.39,"end":3171.39,"text":"我現在要談的是說"},{"start":3172.61,"end":3174.61,"text":"像這些廣告在出來的時候"},{"start":3174.61,"end":3177.61,"text":"你們有沒有可能第一時間"},{"start":3177.61,"end":3178.61,"text":"或者不要說第一時間"},{"start":3178.61,"end":3179.61,"text":"就是它廣告一上架的時候"},{"start":3179.61,"end":3180.61,"text":"你們就發現"},{"start":3180.61,"end":3183.61,"text":"我想是主動關切跟事後罰款"},{"start":3183.61,"end":3185.61,"text":"兩個不同的差別"},{"start":3185.61,"end":3186.61,"text":"你的事後罰款"},{"start":3186.61,"end":3188.61,"text":"很多人很多消費者"},{"start":3188.61,"end":3189.61,"text":"有可能因為"},{"start":3189.61,"end":3191.61,"text":"因為這樣的一個安全認證的廣告"},{"start":3191.61,"end":3193.61,"text":"他去買了這輛車"},{"start":3193.61,"end":3195.61,"text":"他信任的這個所謂的"},{"start":3195.61,"end":3197.61,"text":"歐洲認證的五顆星安全的撞擊"},{"start":3198.6,"end":3199.6,"text":"後來才發現"},{"start":3199.6,"end":3201.6,"text":"其實它在台灣只有兩顆星"},{"start":3201.6,"end":3202.6,"text":"它的安全撞擊力只有兩顆星"},{"start":3202.6,"end":3204.6,"text":"所以當然你們認為它是廣告不實"},{"start":3204.6,"end":3205.6,"text":"所以你們就罰了它款"},{"start":3205.6,"end":3207.6,"text":"可是安全這件事情"},{"start":3208.4,"end":3211.4,"text":"通常不會是事後才去做補強嗎"},{"start":3211.4,"end":3212.4,"text":"我們應該"},{"start":3212.4,"end":3213.4,"text":"他買這輛車"},{"start":3213.4,"end":3216.4,"text":"很多是因為它的安全係數是到五顆星"},{"start":3216.4,"end":3217.4,"text":"所以我要談的是說"},{"start":3217.4,"end":3219.4,"text":"有沒有可能是事前"},{"start":3219.79,"end":3221.79,"text":"去做好把關"},{"start":3222.07,"end":3225.07,"text":"好過於我們在事後才去做罰款"},{"start":3227.95,"end":3228.95,"text":"來出會"},{"start":3228.95,"end":3230.95,"text":"公平會大概我們有一些"},{"start":3230.95,"end":3232.95,"text":"不實廣告的事前的監測機制"},{"start":3232.95,"end":3233.95,"text":"我們有些網路事前監測"},{"start":3233.95,"end":3234.95,"text":"當然我們說"},{"start":3234.95,"end":3237.95,"text":"再怎麼樣綿密總是會有漏網之力的"},{"start":3237.95,"end":3239.95,"text":"那這個案子主要當然是"},{"start":3239.95,"end":3241.95,"text":"從外界檢舉而來我們才得知"},{"start":3241.95,"end":3243.95,"text":"不過我們這幾年都盡量的"},{"start":3243.95,"end":3245.95,"text":"希望能夠透過這些數位的科技"},{"start":3245.95,"end":3246.95,"text":"盡可能早期的發現這個"},{"start":3246.95,"end":3247.95,"text":"不實廣告的議題"},{"start":3247.95,"end":3248.95,"text":"那我們在有些案子"},{"start":3248.95,"end":3249.95,"text":"我們也會主動去"},{"start":3249.95,"end":3251.95,"text":"有發現這個疑義的時候"},{"start":3251.95,"end":3253.95,"text":"我們會主動介入調查"},{"start":3253.95,"end":3256.95,"text":"好來 那個交通部可不可以說明一下"},{"start":3256.95,"end":3258.95,"text":"比如說像這些車商"},{"start":3258.95,"end":3260.95,"text":"他一定要受你們的檢測"},{"start":3260.95,"end":3262.95,"text":"那受你們檢測出來的車款"},{"start":3262.95,"end":3263.95,"text":"台灣是兩顆星"},{"start":3263.95,"end":3264.95,"text":"但是他的廣告是"},{"start":3264.95,"end":3266.95,"text":"引用歐洲的五顆星的時候"},{"start":3268.4,"end":3270.4,"text":"交通部有沒有什麼一些比較積極的作為"},{"start":3272.38,"end":3275.38,"text":"當然我們也是接受檢舉的時候"},{"start":3275.38,"end":3276.38,"text":"我們就有把這個"},{"start":3276.38,"end":3277.38,"text":"所以你們還是要接受檢舉"},{"start":3277.38,"end":3278.38,"text":"你們還是被動的接受"},{"start":3278.38,"end":3281.38,"text":"被動的去審查這件事情"},{"start":3281.38,"end":3282.38,"text":"被動的去了解"},{"start":3282.38,"end":3284.38,"text":"接收到這樣的一個資訊就是了"},{"start":3284.38,"end":3285.38,"text":"跟委員報告一下"},{"start":3285.38,"end":3286.38,"text":"我們主動"},{"start":3286.38,"end":3287.38,"text":"我們應該是說"},{"start":3287.38,"end":3289.38,"text":"車輛在審查的時候"},{"start":3289.38,"end":3290.38,"text":"其實都是主動集資"},{"start":3290.38,"end":3292.38,"text":"就比如說像TNCAP這個"},{"start":3292.38,"end":3293.38,"text":"我們在審"},{"start":3293.38,"end":3296.38,"text":"他提供的資料都是符合他"},{"start":3296.38,"end":3299.38,"text":"因為他並沒有在審查"},{"start":3299.38,"end":3301.38,"text":"那個TNCAP的測試的時候"},{"start":3301.38,"end":3302.38,"text":"有不實的狀況"},{"start":3302.38,"end":3305.38,"text":"因為他其實就是照他的實際的"},{"start":3305.38,"end":3308.38,"text":"配備來做TNCAP的測試"},{"start":3308.38,"end":3309.38,"text":"那TNCAP的測試之後"},{"start":3309.38,"end":3312.38,"text":"也是給依照他來測試的車款"},{"start":3314.71,"end":3315.71,"text":"就是依照他來"},{"start":3315.71,"end":3316.71,"text":"你講這個我都懂啦"},{"start":3316.71,"end":3318.71,"text":"我現在要問你的就是說"},{"start":3318.71,"end":3319.71,"text":"你的TNCAP"},{"start":3319.71,"end":3321.71,"text":"他驗出來只有兩顆星"},{"start":3321.71,"end":3324.71,"text":"可是他在做廣告的時候"},{"start":3324.71,"end":3326.71,"text":"他不會用你們的TNCAP"},{"start":3326.71,"end":3328.71,"text":"他講的是歐洲認證是五顆星"},{"start":3328.71,"end":3330.71,"text":"那這個落差其實是很大"},{"start":3330.71,"end":3332.71,"text":"除非你們的驗證標準"},{"start":3332.71,"end":3334.71,"text":"是有很大的不同"},{"start":3334.71,"end":3336.71,"text":"否則五顆星跟兩顆星"},{"start":3336.71,"end":3337.71,"text":"其實落差是很大的"},{"start":3337.71,"end":3339.71,"text":"我要談的是這一些"},{"start":3339.71,"end":3342.71,"text":"車輛安全的認證的問題"},{"start":3342.71,"end":3344.71,"text":"有沒有可能我們就是"},{"start":3347.19,"end":3349.19,"text":"就你在發現他的廣告不實的時候"},{"start":3349.19,"end":3352.19,"text":"其實我們就能夠第一時間"},{"start":3352.19,"end":3353.19,"text":"去抓出來"},{"start":3353.19,"end":3355.19,"text":"當然公民衛會事後開罰"},{"start":3355.19,"end":3356.19,"text":"我現在談的是"},{"start":3356.19,"end":3359.19,"text":"在安全的所謂的宣傳上面"},{"start":3360.15,"end":3361.15,"text":"這個你們回去想一下"},{"start":3361.15,"end":3363.15,"text":"我知道你大概也回答不出來"},{"start":3367.13,"end":3369.13,"text":"好謝謝邱委員"},{"start":3369.13,"end":3371.13,"text":"謝謝主委跟各位"},{"start":3371.13,"end":3373.13,"text":"接下來我們有請楊瓊英委員諮詢"},{"start":3379.17,"end":3381.17,"text":"謝謝主席楊瓊英發言"},{"start":3381.17,"end":3382.17,"text":"邀請公平會"},{"start":3382.17,"end":3383.17,"text":"請公平會陳主委"},{"start":3391.32,"end":3392.32,"text":"邱委員早"},{"start":3392.32,"end":3394.32,"text":"主委"},{"start":3394.32,"end":3396.32,"text":"昨天公平會做出了這一項"},{"start":3396.32,"end":3397.32,"text":"重大的決議"},{"start":3397.32,"end":3401.32,"text":"正式宣布禁止東南亞外送龍頭GRAP"},{"start":3401.32,"end":3404.32,"text":"收購FUPENTA台灣業務"},{"start":3404.32,"end":3407.32,"text":"公平會這一次出現了"},{"start":3407.32,"end":3410.32,"text":"展現出獨立機關的一個專業"},{"start":3410.32,"end":3412.32,"text":"也因為你們發現"},{"start":3412.32,"end":3414.32,"text":"表面上是GRAP來收購"},{"start":3414.32,"end":3416.32,"text":"但是它背後Uber"},{"start":3416.32,"end":3419.32,"text":"它有GRAP的13%的股份"},{"start":3419.32,"end":3422.32,"text":"而且有3.7%的表決權"},{"start":3422.32,"end":3426.32,"text":"甚至有董事兼任的這個關係"},{"start":3426.32,"end":3430.32,"text":"那如果說放行表面上是兩家競爭"},{"start":3430.32,"end":3435.32,"text":"實際上它是背後股權實質的連結"},{"start":3435.32,"end":3436.32,"text":"那削弱的競爭"},{"start":3436.32,"end":3438.32,"text":"這完全是披著羊"},{"start":3438.32,"end":3441.32,"text":"披著羊皮的狼"},{"start":3441.32,"end":3444.32,"text":"所以我首先要肯定公平會"},{"start":3444.32,"end":3446.32,"text":"這一次你看穿了這一層"},{"start":3446.32,"end":3449.32,"text":"也就是複雜股權的一個結構"},{"start":3449.32,"end":3451.32,"text":"但本席要問的是"},{"start":3451.32,"end":3455.32,"text":"這不能只是一個個案的驚險防守"},{"start":3455.32,"end":3458.32,"text":"台灣有沒有一套制度化"},{"start":3458.32,"end":3461.32,"text":"跨境事業並購實質"},{"start":3461.32,"end":3464.32,"text":"控制力的審查指引"},{"start":3464.32,"end":3467.32,"text":"因為面對到國際數位巨頭"},{"start":3467.32,"end":3469.32,"text":"用這種多層次的控股"},{"start":3469.32,"end":3470.32,"text":"交叉持股"},{"start":3470.32,"end":3472.32,"text":"或者是表決權的協議"},{"start":3472.32,"end":3475.32,"text":"來規避審查"},{"start":3475.32,"end":3476.32,"text":"那目前公平會"},{"start":3476.32,"end":3479.32,"text":"你針對於跨境並購的"},{"start":3479.32,"end":3481.32,"text":"複雜股權的結構"},{"start":3481.32,"end":3486.32,"text":"有沒有主動的穿透式的調查工具呢"},{"start":3486.32,"end":3487.32,"text":"還是業者送什麼資料"},{"start":3487.32,"end":3490.32,"text":"那你們就看這一些資料"},{"start":3490.32,"end":3491.32,"text":"那所以呢"},{"start":3491.32,"end":3493.32,"text":"我在這邊要特別提出"},{"start":3493.32,"end":3496.32,"text":"如果跨境外的這個母公司"},{"start":3496.32,"end":3500.32,"text":"它隱瞞了關鍵的交叉持股"},{"start":3500.32,"end":3501.32,"text":"或者是它背後"},{"start":3501.32,"end":3503.32,"text":"有不友善的外資"},{"start":3503.32,"end":3506.32,"text":"特定勢力的實質控制"},{"start":3506.32,"end":3507.32,"text":"那公平會"},{"start":3507.32,"end":3509.32,"text":"你要在幾十個工作天裡頭"},{"start":3509.32,"end":3510.32,"text":"去查出來"},{"start":3510.32,"end":3513.32,"text":"那你的工具到底夠不夠"},{"start":3513.32,"end":3516.32,"text":"所以是否你應該要正式的"},{"start":3516.32,"end":3519.32,"text":"將複雜股權結構專案報告"},{"start":3519.32,"end":3522.32,"text":"納入重大跨境並購的"},{"start":3522.32,"end":3525.32,"text":"強制審查的一個程序"},{"start":3525.32,"end":3527.32,"text":"所以本席在這邊建議"},{"start":3527.32,"end":3529.32,"text":"也就是只要屬於高科技"},{"start":3529.32,"end":3531.32,"text":"數位平台"},{"start":3531.32,"end":3532.32,"text":"外送平台"},{"start":3532.32,"end":3535.32,"text":"這些高度集中市場"},{"start":3535.32,"end":3539.32,"text":"而且參與到結合事業股權"},{"start":3539.32,"end":3543.32,"text":"涉及到兩成以上的境外結構者"},{"start":3543.32,"end":3544.32,"text":"那公平會"},{"start":3544.32,"end":3548.32,"text":"你應該要依照公交法第十一條"},{"start":3548.32,"end":3550.32,"text":"或者是第十一條之一的"},{"start":3550.32,"end":3552.32,"text":"一個職權要求"},{"start":3552.32,"end":3554.32,"text":"業者提交由第三方"},{"start":3554.32,"end":3557.32,"text":"獨立機構認證的"},{"start":3557.32,"end":3560.32,"text":"最終實質受益人"},{"start":3560.32,"end":3563.32,"text":"與股權結構專案報告"},{"start":3563.32,"end":3564.32,"text":"因為我們不能"},{"start":3564.32,"end":3567.32,"text":"只有看申報書的表面"},{"start":3567.32,"end":3568.32,"text":"主委"},{"start":3568.32,"end":3569.32,"text":"剛剛本席所提議的"},{"start":3569.32,"end":3572.32,"text":"你是不是願意納入未來"},{"start":3572.32,"end":3573.32,"text":"你的處置原則"},{"start":3573.32,"end":3574.32,"text":"請教說"},{"start":3574.32,"end":3576.32,"text":"其實剛剛委員所關切的"},{"start":3576.32,"end":3577.32,"text":"基本上我們的法規架構"},{"start":3577.32,"end":3579.32,"text":"跟公平會實務上的做法"},{"start":3579.32,"end":3580.32,"text":"我們都會考慮了"},{"start":3580.32,"end":3581.32,"text":"其實像這種所謂"},{"start":3581.32,"end":3583.32,"text":"複雜股權的一個"},{"start":3583.32,"end":3584.32,"text":"涉及到的結合案"},{"start":3584.32,"end":3585.32,"text":"我們在過去的結合案裡面"},{"start":3585.32,"end":3586.32,"text":"也處理過"},{"start":3586.32,"end":3587.32,"text":"只是因為過去的結合案"},{"start":3587.32,"end":3589.32,"text":"可能沒有受到那麼大的矚目"},{"start":3589.32,"end":3592.32,"text":"至於說交叉持股控股這些東西"},{"start":3592.32,"end":3593.32,"text":"我們在結合審查的時候"},{"start":3593.32,"end":3594.32,"text":"我們不會只看當事人"},{"start":3594.32,"end":3595.32,"text":"提出的書面資料"},{"start":3595.32,"end":3596.32,"text":"我們會要求他揭露"},{"start":3596.32,"end":3598.32,"text":"他背後複雜的股權結構"},{"start":3598.32,"end":3599.32,"text":"這個非常重要"},{"start":3599.32,"end":3600.32,"text":"對 一定他們都會提供"},{"start":3600.32,"end":3601.32,"text":"那你的工具夠不夠"},{"start":3601.32,"end":3603.32,"text":"我們當然就是提供業者提供"},{"start":3603.32,"end":3604.32,"text":"然後我們在判斷的過程當中"},{"start":3604.32,"end":3605.32,"text":"假設我們覺得"},{"start":3605.32,"end":3607.32,"text":"我們本身的專業判斷"},{"start":3607.32,"end":3608.32,"text":"有一些局限的話"},{"start":3608.32,"end":3610.32,"text":"我們還是會召開一些座談"},{"start":3610.32,"end":3611.32,"text":"會請專家來提供意見"},{"start":3611.32,"end":3613.32,"text":"但是就法的架構來講"},{"start":3613.32,"end":3614.32,"text":"我覺得目前的法架構"},{"start":3614.32,"end":3616.32,"text":"是可以歸納到這一塊"},{"start":3616.32,"end":3617.32,"text":"只是說當然"},{"start":3617.32,"end":3618.32,"text":"如同委員所講的"},{"start":3618.32,"end":3620.32,"text":"數位競爭數位平台"},{"start":3620.32,"end":3622.32,"text":"這個東西將來跨權越來越複雜"},{"start":3622.32,"end":3623.32,"text":"外送平台"},{"start":3623.32,"end":3624.32,"text":"那本會在這個案子"},{"start":3624.32,"end":3625.32,"text":"做出來這樣的一個判斷以後"},{"start":3625.32,"end":3627.32,"text":"當然未來本會就是"},{"start":3627.32,"end":3628.32,"text":"朝這個方向"},{"start":3628.32,"end":3629.32,"text":"朝這個方向"},{"start":3629.32,"end":3630.32,"text":"未來可能很多案子"},{"start":3630.32,"end":3631.32,"text":"我們都需要注意到這個問題"},{"start":3631.32,"end":3634.32,"text":"對 謝謝主委"},{"start":3634.32,"end":3636.32,"text":"你認同本席所提議"},{"start":3636.32,"end":3637.32,"text":"所以我仍舊希望"},{"start":3637.32,"end":3639.32,"text":"它不是一個個案的"},{"start":3639.32,"end":3640.32,"text":"一個精選防守"},{"start":3640.32,"end":3642.32,"text":"而是我希望的是"},{"start":3642.32,"end":3644.32,"text":"你必須要透過這樣子的案子"},{"start":3644.32,"end":3646.32,"text":"因為這個樣態"},{"start":3647.12,"end":3649.12,"text":"這個隨時在變化"},{"start":3649.12,"end":3650.12,"text":"所以在這樣的情況之下"},{"start":3650.12,"end":3653.12,"text":"我們應該要有一套"},{"start":3653.12,"end":3654.12,"text":"這個平台出來"},{"start":3654.12,"end":3656.12,"text":"它該當怎麼樣的法規"},{"start":3656.12,"end":3659.12,"text":"跨界或者是跨領域的"},{"start":3659.12,"end":3660.12,"text":"一個專業的報告"},{"start":3660.12,"end":3662.12,"text":"這些都必須納入"},{"start":3662.12,"end":3666.12,"text":"在我們審查的必要程序當中"},{"start":3666.12,"end":3667.12,"text":"我也附帶跟委員報告一下"},{"start":3667.12,"end":3668.12,"text":"這種"},{"start":3669.11,"end":3670.11,"text":"交叉持股"},{"start":3670.11,"end":3671.11,"text":"跨境股票持股的案子"},{"start":3671.11,"end":3673.11,"text":"其實我們很難有一個統一的標準"},{"start":3673.11,"end":3675.11,"text":"其實很多東西股權的高低"},{"start":3675.11,"end":3677.11,"text":"還有它到底有沒有影響市場經營"},{"start":3677.11,"end":3678.11,"text":"不是統一的標準"},{"start":3678.11,"end":3680.11,"text":"而是本席告訴你"},{"start":3680.11,"end":3682.11,"text":"你要有一個標準"},{"start":3682.11,"end":3684.11,"text":"要有一個平台"},{"start":3684.11,"end":3686.11,"text":"要有一個標準怎麼樣去做"},{"start":3687.56,"end":3689.56,"text":"至於如果委員關切是程序上"},{"start":3689.56,"end":3690.56,"text":"我們要注意這個問題"},{"start":3690.56,"end":3692.56,"text":"這個其實我們都有注意到"},{"start":3692.56,"end":3694.56,"text":"在個案當中我們都會注意到"},{"start":3694.56,"end":3695.56,"text":"這個部分必須要精進"},{"start":3695.56,"end":3697.56,"text":"因為主委跨境併購"},{"start":3697.56,"end":3700.56,"text":"它不是只有影響到市場的競爭"},{"start":3700.56,"end":3704.56,"text":"它還牽涉到數百萬國人的"},{"start":3704.56,"end":3707.56,"text":"個人資安風險"},{"start":3707.56,"end":3709.56,"text":"以及數十萬的勞工"},{"start":3709.56,"end":3712.56,"text":"以及外送員的勞動權益"},{"start":3712.56,"end":3713.56,"text":"這非常重要"},{"start":3713.56,"end":3716.56,"text":"所以因此我要跟你再討論就是說"},{"start":3716.56,"end":3717.56,"text":"像外送平台"},{"start":3717.56,"end":3721.56,"text":"它擁有這麼大量國人在消費的習慣"},{"start":3721.56,"end":3723.56,"text":"信用卡的資料"},{"start":3723.56,"end":3726.56,"text":"地理位置數據的企業"},{"start":3726.56,"end":3727.56,"text":"它一旦背後"},{"start":3727.56,"end":3729.56,"text":"如果有複雜的跨境股權"},{"start":3729.56,"end":3731.56,"text":"那這些資安的漏洞"},{"start":3731.56,"end":3733.56,"text":"要誰來補呢"},{"start":3733.56,"end":3735.56,"text":"所以我們公平問目前的審查"},{"start":3735.56,"end":3737.56,"text":"往往我看到的是"},{"start":3737.56,"end":3740.56,"text":"著重在經濟利益"},{"start":3740.56,"end":3742.56,"text":"跟限制競爭之不利益"},{"start":3743.63,"end":3744.63,"text":"的這個衡量"},{"start":3744.63,"end":3746.63,"text":"但是本席認為"},{"start":3746.63,"end":3748.63,"text":"複雜股權以及它背後"},{"start":3748.63,"end":3750.63,"text":"所帶來的資安風險"},{"start":3750.63,"end":3752.63,"text":"勞動權益的損害"},{"start":3752.63,"end":3757.63,"text":"也是限制競爭的一個隱形成本"},{"start":3757.63,"end":3758.63,"text":"你認同嗎"},{"start":3758.63,"end":3760.63,"text":"我跟委員報告一下"},{"start":3760.63,"end":3762.63,"text":"剛才開始我有報告到就是說"},{"start":3762.63,"end":3764.63,"text":"對於這些非經濟的因素"},{"start":3764.63,"end":3766.63,"text":"勞工資安國安等等的問題"},{"start":3766.63,"end":3767.63,"text":"勞動權"},{"start":3767.63,"end":3768.63,"text":"對勞動權的問題"},{"start":3768.63,"end":3770.63,"text":"如果它跟競爭有關"},{"start":3770.63,"end":3772.63,"text":"公平衛視可以進一步的"},{"start":3772.63,"end":3774.63,"text":"去瞭解跟審查"},{"start":3774.63,"end":3775.63,"text":"這是務必"},{"start":3775.63,"end":3778.63,"text":"但是我想這裡面有一個區分"},{"start":3778.63,"end":3780.63,"text":"就是說純粹的勞工"},{"start":3780.63,"end":3781.63,"text":"純粹的資安"},{"start":3781.63,"end":3782.63,"text":"跟競爭無色的"},{"start":3782.63,"end":3784.63,"text":"這個其實我們有很多"},{"start":3784.63,"end":3785.63,"text":"其他的主管機關"},{"start":3785.63,"end":3786.63,"text":"它是可以來進行審查"},{"start":3786.63,"end":3787.63,"text":"但這另外一回事"},{"start":3787.63,"end":3789.63,"text":"我們就針對本席的提問"},{"start":3789.63,"end":3790.63,"text":"但是我要跟委員報告就是說"},{"start":3790.63,"end":3791.63,"text":"我們的審查重點"},{"start":3791.63,"end":3792.63,"text":"其實我們要去審查什麼"},{"start":3792.63,"end":3795.63,"text":"隱私資安國安勞動權益"},{"start":3795.63,"end":3797.63,"text":"它必須建立在一個前提上"},{"start":3797.63,"end":3799.63,"text":"這些議題本身對市場競爭"},{"start":3799.63,"end":3800.63,"text":"是有影響的"},{"start":3800.63,"end":3801.63,"text":"當然"},{"start":3801.63,"end":3802.63,"text":"必要條件"},{"start":3802.63,"end":3805.63,"text":"所以我們這一次的併購"},{"start":3805.63,"end":3807.63,"text":"你昨天做的這個決議"},{"start":3807.63,"end":3809.63,"text":"是大家都認同的"},{"start":3809.63,"end":3812.63,"text":"因為這個背後有太多的"},{"start":3812.63,"end":3814.63,"text":"這個原因所在"},{"start":3814.63,"end":3815.63,"text":"以及股權的這個問題"},{"start":3815.63,"end":3818.63,"text":"所以本席要要求公平會"},{"start":3818.63,"end":3819.63,"text":"我們討論到現在"},{"start":3819.63,"end":3821.63,"text":"也就是我個人認為"},{"start":3821.63,"end":3824.63,"text":"你必須要跟經濟部投審師"},{"start":3824.63,"end":3825.63,"text":"數位發展部"},{"start":3825.63,"end":3826.63,"text":"勞動部"},{"start":3826.63,"end":3830.63,"text":"建立一個跨境併購的聯訪機制"},{"start":3830.63,"end":3833.63,"text":"在公平會你審查結合案的時候"},{"start":3833.63,"end":3835.63,"text":"你應該要主動的去請速發部"},{"start":3835.63,"end":3838.63,"text":"勞動部請他們具體"},{"start":3838.63,"end":3842.63,"text":"去提出這樣子的一個專案評估意見出來"},{"start":3842.63,"end":3843.63,"text":"而且將這個意見"},{"start":3843.63,"end":3847.63,"text":"你必須作為你公平會全體委員"},{"start":3847.63,"end":3851.63,"text":"在會議當中作為準薄的關鍵考量"},{"start":3851.63,"end":3852.63,"text":"主委"},{"start":3852.63,"end":3855.63,"text":"你認為這一個部會的平台"},{"start":3855.63,"end":3856.63,"text":"是應該要建立吧"},{"start":3856.63,"end":3858.63,"text":"我們實際上事實上都有在做"},{"start":3858.63,"end":3860.63,"text":"就是說假設這個一個結合案"},{"start":3860.63,"end":3861.63,"text":"你沒有涉及到勞工議題"},{"start":3861.63,"end":3862.63,"text":"涉及到治安議題"},{"start":3862.63,"end":3864.63,"text":"我們必要的時候都會會商"},{"start":3864.63,"end":3866.63,"text":"速發部還有經濟部勞動部等等"},{"start":3866.63,"end":3868.63,"text":"請他們表達他們"},{"start":3868.63,"end":3869.63,"text":"你就要把它做成一個"},{"start":3869.63,"end":3871.63,"text":"你很自尊做成一個平台"},{"start":3871.63,"end":3875.63,"text":"因為這些專業的意見是非常重要的"},{"start":3875.63,"end":3876.63,"text":"有我們在結合案子"},{"start":3876.63,"end":3877.63,"text":"要涉及到這些議題"},{"start":3877.63,"end":3879.63,"text":"我們都會請其他機關來表示意見"},{"start":3879.63,"end":3880.63,"text":"提供我們做參考"},{"start":3880.63,"end":3881.63,"text":"不必要這麼做"},{"start":3881.63,"end":3883.63,"text":"所以因為我要給你一個結語"},{"start":3883.63,"end":3887.63,"text":"也就是說你守住了公平會的獨立"},{"start":3887.63,"end":3889.63,"text":"這個審查底線"},{"start":3889.63,"end":3893.63,"text":"那就是守住台灣的經濟公信力"},{"start":3894.55,"end":3895.55,"text":"那所以我要請主委"},{"start":3895.55,"end":3897.55,"text":"你必須要帶著你的同仁"},{"start":3897.55,"end":3900.55,"text":"繼續的往專業堅持"},{"start":3900.55,"end":3903.55,"text":"而不要讓複雜的古存包裝"},{"start":3903.55,"end":3908.55,"text":"成為跨國巨頭壟斷台灣市場的保守"},{"start":3909.99,"end":3910.99,"text":"你的立場"},{"start":3910.99,"end":3911.99,"text":"公平會的立場"},{"start":3911.99,"end":3913.99,"text":"一向來就是確保市場競爭在台灣"},{"start":3913.99,"end":3916.99,"text":"不管是跨平台或是不跨平台"},{"start":3916.99,"end":3918.99,"text":"我們所謂的重點就是在於行為結合案"},{"start":3918.99,"end":3920.99,"text":"它到底對整體的經濟利益"},{"start":3922,"end":3925,"text":"跟限制競爭的不利益兩者之間如何去權衡"},{"start":3925,"end":3927,"text":"所以我們一直會朝這個方向來做"},{"start":3927,"end":3931,"text":"所以你回答的這一句行為結合案"},{"start":3931,"end":3934,"text":"這個也就是本席今天跟你討論的精髓"},{"start":3934,"end":3936,"text":"因為我們希望台灣的經濟"},{"start":3936,"end":3937,"text":"大家這麼努力"},{"start":3937,"end":3940,"text":"我們不能讓人隨意的 惡意的"},{"start":3940,"end":3942,"text":"在不知情的情況之下"},{"start":3942,"end":3944,"text":"削弱了我們的競爭力"},{"start":3944,"end":3947,"text":"這是站在公平會的角度裡頭"},{"start":3947,"end":3950,"text":"非常非常重要的一個堅持"},{"start":3950,"end":3953,"text":"所以我還是要再一次的重複的說"},{"start":3953,"end":3956,"text":"不要讓複雜的股權包裝成為"},{"start":3956,"end":3961,"text":"跨國巨頭壟斷台灣市場的保護傘"},{"start":3961,"end":3963,"text":"這一句一定要切記"},{"start":3963,"end":3965,"text":"加油 謝謝"},{"start":3966.01,"end":3968.01,"text":"謝謝陳主委 謝謝楊委員"},{"start":3968.01,"end":3970.01,"text":"接下來請洪育祥委員諮詢"},{"start":3980.98,"end":3982.98,"text":"好 謝謝主席"},{"start":3982.98,"end":3988.98,"text":"第一個議題我先請教經濟部跟勞動部"},{"start":3989.67,"end":3992.67,"text":"經濟部投審司 勞動部理事長"},{"start":4000.39,"end":4003.39,"text":"好 那我想這個在"},{"start":4004.32,"end":4006.32,"text":"主要是這些議題"},{"start":4006.32,"end":4010.32,"text":"就是當時我們還在公平會還在審"},{"start":4010.32,"end":4013.32,"text":"Grab Bingo Food Panda的案子的時候"},{"start":4013.32,"end":4016.32,"text":"那這個當然我們的部長"},{"start":4016.32,"end":4021.32,"text":"經濟部部長硬要出席數位的經濟的論壇"},{"start":4022.32,"end":4024.32,"text":"發表了這樣子的一個言論"},{"start":4025.45,"end":4029.45,"text":"那這個當然今天部次長都沒有出現"},{"start":4029.45,"end":4032.45,"text":"我只是請這一個經濟部代表"},{"start":4032.45,"end":4034.45,"text":"就回去告訴這一個"},{"start":4035.67,"end":4036.67,"text":"經濟部長"},{"start":4037.02,"end":4038.02,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4038.52,"end":4040.52,"text":"我們當然是歡迎外商"},{"start":4040.52,"end":4042.52,"text":"對不對 來台灣投資"},{"start":4042.52,"end":4046.52,"text":"但是這個發言跟出席的時機要謹慎"},{"start":4046.52,"end":4048.52,"text":"因為外送平台他說是"},{"start":4048.52,"end":4051.52,"text":"促進創新科技或什麼樣子的速率"},{"start":4051.52,"end":4054.52,"text":"那我是覺得這前半段可能沒有錯"},{"start":4054.52,"end":4056.52,"text":"但是這個敏感的時機避免"},{"start":4056.52,"end":4057.52,"text":"聽得懂的時候"},{"start":4057.52,"end":4060.52,"text":"避免這樣子被人家誤會的嫌疑"},{"start":4060.52,"end":4063.52,"text":"那加上你說外送平台引進新的創新技術"},{"start":4063.52,"end":4066.52,"text":"帶動台灣的什麼商業模式"},{"start":4066.52,"end":4069.52,"text":"倒是覺得如果按照我的觀察"},{"start":4069.52,"end":4070.52,"text":"外送平台到台灣來"},{"start":4070.52,"end":4072.52,"text":"是不是有用台灣的技術"},{"start":4072.52,"end":4074.52,"text":"這是問號"},{"start":4074.65,"end":4076.65,"text":"就我所知是沒有"},{"start":4076.8,"end":4080.8,"text":"所以這個可能還是回去請表達一下這樣子"},{"start":4080.8,"end":4082.8,"text":"勞動部在這一個地方的話"},{"start":4082.8,"end":4085.8,"text":"有沒有向公評會表達說"},{"start":4085.8,"end":4089.8,"text":"這個勞動權益有沒有受損的一個可能性"},{"start":4090.7,"end":4091.7,"text":"跟委員報"},{"start":4091.7,"end":4096.7,"text":"勞動部已經在6月4號回函給這個公評會"},{"start":4096.7,"end":4098.7,"text":"給投審司"},{"start":4098.7,"end":4101.7,"text":"在回函中我們勞動部很明確表達"},{"start":4101.7,"end":4104.7,"text":"第一我們希望這個在審查的時候"},{"start":4104.7,"end":4107.7,"text":"應該去要求這個併購方"},{"start":4107.7,"end":4110.7,"text":"要跟公會來建立溝通管道"},{"start":4110.7,"end":4111.7,"text":"了解公會的意見"},{"start":4111.7,"end":4114.7,"text":"第二呢我們也要求"},{"start":4114.7,"end":4116.7,"text":"我們也建議希望這個"},{"start":4116.7,"end":4117.7,"text":"在這個併購過程中"},{"start":4117.7,"end":4120.7,"text":"併購方應該要對勞工的"},{"start":4120.7,"end":4124.7,"text":"現有勞工他的現有契約還有報酬計算方式"},{"start":4124.7,"end":4127.7,"text":"都要來那個予保保障"},{"start":4127.7,"end":4130.7,"text":"不能夠來片面變更外送員他的權益"},{"start":4130.7,"end":4132.7,"text":"對因為因為我是覺得說"},{"start":4132.7,"end":4135.7,"text":"在上次我們修完這個外送專法的時候"},{"start":4135.7,"end":4140.7,"text":"那可能還是請勞動部去看一下這個落實的一個狀況"},{"start":4140.7,"end":4141.7,"text":"法國之後"},{"start":4141.7,"end":4144.7,"text":"那還是要去定期做一些的稽核"},{"start":4144.7,"end":4147.7,"text":"然後看看這些我們的勞動的權益有沒有受損"},{"start":4147.7,"end":4148.7,"text":"好不好"},{"start":4148.7,"end":4150.7,"text":"這個大概是提醒這樣子"},{"start":4150.7,"end":4151.7,"text":"這個都有在做"},{"start":4151.7,"end":4152.7,"text":"好"},{"start":4152.7,"end":4155.7,"text":"那接下來兩位請回我們請這一個公評會"},{"start":4158.62,"end":4161.62,"text":"好那公評會這邊來講的話"},{"start":4161.62,"end":4166.62,"text":"當然我們覺得這個在昨天這樣子的一個否決"},{"start":4166.62,"end":4172.62,"text":"那我也把你們的這個理由否決的理由看了一下"},{"start":4172.62,"end":4175.62,"text":"主要就是降低Uber積極競爭的誘因"},{"start":4175.62,"end":4179.62,"text":"降低這個Grab積極競爭的誘因等等"},{"start":4179.62,"end":4181.62,"text":"那麼以及他們的過往"},{"start":4181.62,"end":4185.62,"text":"在東南亞或其他各國的案例的互動方式"},{"start":4185.62,"end":4187.62,"text":"可能增加我們協調的風險"},{"start":4187.62,"end":4190.62,"text":"那可能我們也沒有一個抗衡的力量"},{"start":4190.62,"end":4194.62,"text":"來做一個破壞協調行為的一個維持"},{"start":4194.62,"end":4198.62,"text":"當然我這邊大概都予以肯定這樣的理由"},{"start":4198.62,"end":4200.62,"text":"但是這樣子的理由的話"},{"start":4200.62,"end":4205.62,"text":"基本上跟我們今天可能還少了兩個面向"},{"start":4205.62,"end":4208.62,"text":"一個就是我們剛剛講的勞動權益"},{"start":4208.62,"end":4211.62,"text":"另外一個的話我是覺得就是說"},{"start":4211.62,"end":4213.62,"text":"在這個資安的風險"},{"start":4213.62,"end":4217.62,"text":"或者是我們之前質詢公評會的時候"},{"start":4217.62,"end":4220.62,"text":"這些AI的演算法聯合定價"},{"start":4220.62,"end":4225.62,"text":"甚至客戶的資料相關的比如說交流或什麼"},{"start":4225.62,"end":4230.62,"text":"那這兩個因素的話在你們的這個理由沒有"},{"start":4230.62,"end":4234.62,"text":"但是是不是在你們決策的過程有被討論到"},{"start":4234.62,"end":4235.62,"text":"請教主委"},{"start":4235.62,"end":4236.62,"text":"各位報告一下"},{"start":4236.62,"end":4237.62,"text":"在決策的過程裡面"},{"start":4237.62,"end":4240.62,"text":"我們有特別針對說公評會本身要不要討論這兩個議題"},{"start":4240.62,"end":4242.62,"text":"尋求委員的意見"},{"start":4242.62,"end":4244.62,"text":"那基本上委員都有共識了"},{"start":4244.62,"end":4248.62,"text":"就是說像這些比較不是傳統經濟上的一個concern"},{"start":4248.62,"end":4251.62,"text":"它如果能夠跟競爭產生連結"},{"start":4251.62,"end":4255.62,"text":"就是說這些行為本身的確會造成市場競爭的被排除"},{"start":4255.62,"end":4257.62,"text":"那公評會是有介入的空間"},{"start":4257.62,"end":4260.62,"text":"只是說在這個案子還有在過去一些的案子裡面"},{"start":4260.62,"end":4264.62,"text":"大部分大家關切的是純粹的國安資安跟隱世保護"},{"start":4264.62,"end":4267.62,"text":"它跟市場競爭比較沒有個連結點"},{"start":4267.62,"end":4270.62,"text":"所以這部分因為我們有很多的其他部會機關"},{"start":4270.62,"end":4272.62,"text":"已經有權限可以來做這些審查"},{"start":4272.62,"end":4276.62,"text":"所以這部分公評會原則上我們同意應該尊重其他機關的審查權限"},{"start":4276.62,"end":4279.62,"text":"那當然如果說真的出現譬如說數據的收集"},{"start":4279.62,"end":4285.62,"text":"已經收集到讓這個企業本身大到有足夠排除競爭的這個能力的時候"},{"start":4285.62,"end":4288.62,"text":"那當然不排除就是說data的收集"},{"start":4288.62,"end":4290.62,"text":"有可能會變成一個排除競爭的工具"},{"start":4290.62,"end":4294.62,"text":"只是說目前在台灣看起來我們是還沒有遇到這樣的一個案子"},{"start":4295.48,"end":4297.48,"text":"沒有遇到不代表以後沒有遇到"},{"start":4297.48,"end":4299.48,"text":"當然當然"},{"start":4299.48,"end":4302.48,"text":"我也現在對公評會的能力是質疑的"},{"start":4302.48,"end":4307.48,"text":"所以我是說這個為什麼點出這個問題就是說好你們有考慮"},{"start":4307.48,"end":4309.48,"text":"當然也就是從我剛剛問的角度"},{"start":4309.48,"end":4313.48,"text":"因為我們現在的話不管是資料的收集對不對"},{"start":4313.48,"end":4315.48,"text":"或者是這個資料的引用"},{"start":4315.48,"end":4317.48,"text":"因為跟我後面的問題有關"},{"start":4317.48,"end":4321.48,"text":"那將來的話可能不只這樣子的數位經濟平台"},{"start":4321.48,"end":4322.48,"text":"只有外送平台而已"},{"start":4322.48,"end":4326.48,"text":"可能包含我們將來可能會引進無人車"},{"start":4326.48,"end":4328.48,"text":"這個繼承的平台"},{"start":4328.48,"end":4330.48,"text":"或是等等其他的數位媒體"},{"start":4330.48,"end":4332.48,"text":"數位交易等等"},{"start":4332.48,"end":4334.48,"text":"那這些東西來講我覺得"},{"start":4334.48,"end":4336.48,"text":"就公評會在這一塊的能量"},{"start":4336.48,"end":4338.48,"text":"要去把它補足"},{"start":4338.48,"end":4339.48,"text":"先藉由委員過去"},{"start":4339.48,"end":4341.48,"text":"我也藉這個機會也許跟外界說明一下"},{"start":4341.48,"end":4345.48,"text":"外界其實在關切這個問題通常會純粹從國安治安這個議題來考慮"},{"start":4345.48,"end":4348.48,"text":"那我還是要強調一下公評會的審查立場是"},{"start":4350,"end":4352,"text":"數位扣緊市場競爭這一塊"},{"start":4352,"end":4353,"text":"明白"},{"start":4353,"end":4359,"text":"所以我剛才談的是說數位經濟在我們技術上對你數位經濟"},{"start":4359,"end":4363,"text":"對我們這個市場的競爭行為造成的影響"},{"start":4363,"end":4365,"text":"但這個地方還是需要有能量"},{"start":4365,"end":4370,"text":"那再來的話就是剛剛我想前面有些人也詢問過"},{"start":4370,"end":4375,"text":"主要的話我們現在的話大概就是我們KIA這一個的問題"},{"start":4375,"end":4378,"text":"那這個問題當然這一個"},{"start":4378,"end":4383,"text":"我們也是本黨團也是接獲很多消費者的一個申訴"},{"start":4383,"end":4386,"text":"然後我們也幫他開了自救會協調會等等"},{"start":4386,"end":4388,"text":"那當然公評會也有開罰"},{"start":4388,"end":4391,"text":"那現在我的問題的話是在於是說"},{"start":4391,"end":4395,"text":"這樣子的一個不實的一個廣告"},{"start":4395,"end":4397,"text":"你們有沒有在當時查的時候說"},{"start":4397,"end":4399,"text":"他已經刊登了多久"},{"start":4399,"end":4401,"text":"那涉及多少資料"},{"start":4401,"end":4402,"text":"就是車輛"},{"start":4402,"end":4403,"text":"影響多少消費者"},{"start":4403,"end":4405,"text":"這樣子的數據有沒有"},{"start":4405,"end":4407,"text":"我們在計算罰鍰的時候"},{"start":4407,"end":4409,"text":"這些因素會去考慮"},{"start":4409,"end":4412,"text":"因為我現在報告我也沒有看到"},{"start":4412,"end":4413,"text":"就是說可不可以事後跟我們就是說"},{"start":4413,"end":4416,"text":"他到底從他刊登不實廣告到這個"},{"start":4416,"end":4417,"text":"是這個我們"},{"start":4417,"end":4418,"text":"好不好"},{"start":4418,"end":4421,"text":"那涉及多少車輛多少消費者"},{"start":4421,"end":4425,"text":"那這個也請你事後再提報告給我"},{"start":4425,"end":4426,"text":"因為我們必須要知道"},{"start":4426,"end":4429,"text":"那這根據公平交易法的第四十二條"},{"start":4429,"end":4432,"text":"他違反第二十一條最高可罰"},{"start":4432.83,"end":4434.83,"text":"將近是兩千五百萬"},{"start":4434.83,"end":4437.83,"text":"所以你的裁罰依據才裁罰兩百萬"},{"start":4437.83,"end":4440.83,"text":"也就是上面五顆星這一個是一百二十萬"},{"start":4440.83,"end":4442.83,"text":"底下的話有一個"},{"start":4442.83,"end":4445.83,"text":"ELR三點的黃富沒有是罰八十萬"},{"start":4445.83,"end":4447.83,"text":"這個裁罰的依據"},{"start":4448.33,"end":4450.33,"text":"會不會太少還是怎樣"},{"start":4450.33,"end":4453.33,"text":"因為其實就是罰鍰的科署是跟個案的事實"},{"start":4453.33,"end":4455.33,"text":"還有違法情節輕重有關"},{"start":4455.33,"end":4456.33,"text":"讓我們的考慮依據"},{"start":4456.33,"end":4459.33,"text":"會是在公民交易法施行細則第36條"},{"start":4459.33,"end":4461.33,"text":"他裡面有列了一些考慮的因素"},{"start":4461.33,"end":4462.33,"text":"所以我們會重合來考慮"},{"start":4462.33,"end":4464.33,"text":"因為我覺得這個與要把他"},{"start":4464.33,"end":4468.33,"text":"因為這段期間他的因為這樣不實的廣告"},{"start":4468.33,"end":4471.33,"text":"我們把他認定是違法不實的一個獲利好了"},{"start":4471.33,"end":4472.33,"text":"對不對"},{"start":4472.33,"end":4474.33,"text":"違法的話所獲得的利益"},{"start":4474.33,"end":4476.33,"text":"還有對消費者的一些的影響"},{"start":4476.33,"end":4478.33,"text":"那這一個地方的金額"},{"start":4478.33,"end":4481.33,"text":"我們也希望看到你們是怎麼孤出"},{"start":4481.33,"end":4483.33,"text":"為什麼是拆罰兩百萬而已"},{"start":4483.33,"end":4486.33,"text":"我們會提供考慮的因素給委員參考"},{"start":4486.33,"end":4487.33,"text":"好"},{"start":4487.33,"end":4490.33,"text":"這個因為我都覺得這個罰款有點輕"},{"start":4490.33,"end":4491.33,"text":"再來的話"},{"start":4491.33,"end":4494.33,"text":"因為最終對消費者他來申訴公平會裁罰"},{"start":4494.33,"end":4496.33,"text":"當然是從不實廣告"},{"start":4496.33,"end":4498.33,"text":"但這些錢是進了國庫"},{"start":4498.33,"end":4501.33,"text":"但是消費者的權益"},{"start":4501.33,"end":4505.33,"text":"你們有沒有跟行政院消保處去協調"},{"start":4505.33,"end":4506.33,"text":"可以取得"},{"start":4506.33,"end":4509.33,"text":"就是提供他一些認定的你們的違法"},{"start":4509.33,"end":4513.33,"text":"協助這個消費者去取得他應有的賠償"},{"start":4513.33,"end":4514.33,"text":"以便他"},{"start":4514.33,"end":4516.33,"text":"比如說他將來民事訴訟的話"},{"start":4516.33,"end":4518.33,"text":"那你們會不會提供相關的資料"},{"start":4518.33,"end":4520.33,"text":"給這些民事訴訟的消費者"},{"start":4521.61,"end":4525.61,"text":"我想我們公平會當然不適合主動去提供"},{"start":4525.61,"end":4527.61,"text":"然後叫消費者去提起這個訴訟"},{"start":4527.61,"end":4530.61,"text":"但是如果說消費者有必要提起這個訴訟"},{"start":4530.61,"end":4533.61,"text":"他其實在我們的政府資訊公開的相關法規"},{"start":4533.61,"end":4534.61,"text":"只要符合這個規定"},{"start":4534.61,"end":4536.61,"text":"我們是可以提供給他做參考"},{"start":4537.32,"end":4539.32,"text":"我是希望主動一點"},{"start":4539.32,"end":4541.32,"text":"因為我們現在"},{"start":4541.32,"end":4543.32,"text":"你還有行政院消保處"},{"start":4543.32,"end":4545.32,"text":"兩個單位協調主動一點"},{"start":4546.21,"end":4548.21,"text":"因為從公平會的角色來看"},{"start":4548.21,"end":4550.21,"text":"我們比較不適合去"},{"start":4550.21,"end":4552.21,"text":"我知道他可能是消保處出面"},{"start":4552.21,"end":4554.21,"text":"就是說當人家要這樣的資料"},{"start":4554.21,"end":4557.21,"text":"你應該想的是比消費者多想一步"},{"start":4557.21,"end":4560.21,"text":"保障我們台灣消費者的權益"},{"start":4560.21,"end":4562.21,"text":"我只是希望你們能夠"},{"start":4562.21,"end":4564.21,"text":"go ahead做到多做一點點"},{"start":4564.21,"end":4567.21,"text":"當然知道職責不是你的職責"},{"start":4567.21,"end":4568.21,"text":"但是多做一點"},{"start":4568.21,"end":4573.21,"text":"多提供一個完美的證據或事實的認定"},{"start":4573.21,"end":4576.21,"text":"我們最近對不實廣告其實會比較強調預防"},{"start":4576.21,"end":4579.21,"text":"我們會積極的去宣導一些相關的不實廣告的類型"},{"start":4579.21,"end":4581.21,"text":"盡可能讓消費者在一開始"},{"start":4581.21,"end":4582.21,"text":"這個買就買"},{"start":4582.21,"end":4584.21,"text":"我順時就順時的"},{"start":4584.21,"end":4586.21,"text":"重點預先告知是一個"},{"start":4586.21,"end":4588.21,"text":"但我覺得事後的話"},{"start":4588.21,"end":4590.21,"text":"對這些人還是有一些幫忙"},{"start":4590.21,"end":4594.21,"text":"再來就是我最後幾秒的時間"},{"start":4594.21,"end":4596.21,"text":"幾分鐘的時間"},{"start":4596.21,"end":4598.21,"text":"就是說這個地方來講的話"},{"start":4598.21,"end":4599.21,"text":"就是我剛剛在講的"},{"start":4599.21,"end":4601.21,"text":"因為我們現在的資料在數位經濟裡頭"},{"start":4601.21,"end":4604.21,"text":"是會被演算法拿來做定價的"},{"start":4604.21,"end":4605.21,"text":"因為從你的個資"},{"start":4605.21,"end":4606.21,"text":"從你的消費記錄"},{"start":4606.21,"end":4609.21,"text":"從你過往買的這樣子的價格"},{"start":4609.21,"end":4612.21,"text":"因為美國麥當勞在今年9月多"},{"start":4612.21,"end":4616.21,"text":"已經是被他們的所認定就是說"},{"start":4616.21,"end":4618.21,"text":"這個不同的距離"},{"start":4618.21,"end":4620.21,"text":"他們承認是用AI定價"},{"start":4620.21,"end":4621.21,"text":"但是他把它推給說"},{"start":4621.21,"end":4624.21,"text":"這還是加盟主或是業者自己決定"},{"start":4624.21,"end":4625.21,"text":"所以同樣都是在加州"},{"start":4625.21,"end":4628.21,"text":"他可能是21%的價差"},{"start":4629.57,"end":4631.57,"text":"不管在美國或歐盟"},{"start":4631.57,"end":4634.57,"text":"這個在個資定價或監控式的定價"},{"start":4634.57,"end":4636.57,"text":"甚至是說告訴消費者"},{"start":4636.57,"end":4638.57,"text":"我這個是AI主動定價的"},{"start":4638.57,"end":4641.57,"text":"一個這樣子的來源資訊要主動揭露"},{"start":4641.57,"end":4642.57,"text":"英國當然也有"},{"start":4642.57,"end":4644.57,"text":"那我是說台灣"},{"start":4644.88,"end":4646.88,"text":"這個是我比較concern的"},{"start":4646.88,"end":4647.88,"text":"台灣在這裡塊的話"},{"start":4647.88,"end":4649.88,"text":"同樣的產品不同的消費地區"},{"start":4649.88,"end":4652.88,"text":"不同的個人甚至到群體"},{"start":4652.88,"end":4654.88,"text":"他會不會有不同的定價"},{"start":4654.88,"end":4657.88,"text":"然後這個是由我們的數據的資料"},{"start":4657.88,"end":4659.88,"text":"收集來進行分析定價的"},{"start":4661.06,"end":4663.06,"text":"這個有冒去可能性"},{"start":4663.06,"end":4665.06,"text":"我想對於數位AI相關"},{"start":4665.06,"end":4667.06,"text":"跟數據有關的問題"},{"start":4667.06,"end":4669.06,"text":"第一個如果我們有初步的市政"},{"start":4669.06,"end":4670.06,"text":"我們當然會主動調查"},{"start":4670.06,"end":4673.06,"text":"至於委員所關切主動揭露的部分"},{"start":4673.06,"end":4674.06,"text":"我想在全世界"},{"start":4674.06,"end":4676.06,"text":"就我了解全世界大部分國家"},{"start":4676.06,"end":4678.06,"text":"應該精神主管機關比較少去做"},{"start":4678.06,"end":4679.06,"text":"要求揭露這件事情"},{"start":4679.06,"end":4682.06,"text":"大部分是由一些產業主管機關來做"},{"start":4682.06,"end":4684.06,"text":"那至於數位執法能力"},{"start":4684.06,"end":4685.06,"text":"我想委員也講"},{"start":4685.06,"end":4686.06,"text":"我想我也同意委員講的"},{"start":4686.06,"end":4689.06,"text":"這部分公平會當然要持續的不斷的精進"},{"start":4689.06,"end":4691.06,"text":"不過我們過去這段時間的確有在持續"},{"start":4691.06,"end":4693.06,"text":"因為是說上次我質詢完"},{"start":4693.06,"end":4695.06,"text":"因為我們是2022年"},{"start":4695.06,"end":4698.06,"text":"數位經濟競爭排題書就有差別取價"},{"start":4698.06,"end":4699.06,"text":"演算法的問題"},{"start":4699.06,"end":4702.06,"text":"可是到2026的話我還是希望說"},{"start":4702.06,"end":4704.06,"text":"你們公平會有一個完整"},{"start":4704.06,"end":4706.06,"text":"對現在的怎麼樣去發展"},{"start":4706.06,"end":4708.06,"text":"怎麼樣去提供這個能力"},{"start":4708.06,"end":4710.06,"text":"那速發部今天也坐在這邊"},{"start":4710.06,"end":4712.06,"text":"我看他也難逃其者"},{"start":4712.06,"end":4714.06,"text":"因為他的數位平台經濟組"},{"start":4714.06,"end":4716.06,"text":"也是他的主管業務"},{"start":4716.06,"end":4717.06,"text":"這個地方他是更多"},{"start":4717.06,"end":4719.06,"text":"所以你們兩個應該好好配合"},{"start":4719.06,"end":4722.06,"text":"那我最後指示再讓主席十秒"},{"start":4722.06,"end":4725.06,"text":"就是說我希望你告訴我就是說現在的話"},{"start":4725.06,"end":4728.06,"text":"你們的調查現況科技執法"},{"start":4728.06,"end":4729.06,"text":"你們這樣的能力"},{"start":4729.06,"end":4731.06,"text":"那法律的界線"},{"start":4731.06,"end":4733.06,"text":"比如說他是不是要求要揭露"},{"start":4733.06,"end":4736.06,"text":"對不對這些AI定價的使用的方式"},{"start":4736.06,"end":4738.06,"text":"那甚至歐美的這些的法條"},{"start":4738.06,"end":4739.06,"text":"也給你們參考"},{"start":4739.06,"end":4741.06,"text":"所以我希望你大概兩個禮拜"},{"start":4741.06,"end":4742.06,"text":"給我一個規劃"},{"start":4742.06,"end":4745.06,"text":"那到現在我未來會怎麼樣子去做"},{"start":4745.06,"end":4747.06,"text":"因為我覺得你現在不做"},{"start":4747.06,"end":4750.06,"text":"這個將來很多這個案子你都是只能事後"},{"start":4750.06,"end":4751.06,"text":"甚至人家已經發生"},{"start":4751.06,"end":4753.06,"text":"或是台灣已經用的時候"},{"start":4753.06,"end":4754.06,"text":"你這個東西就不知道"},{"start":4754.06,"end":4755.06,"text":"所以我可以在"},{"start":4755.06,"end":4757.06,"text":"我們可以在兩個禮拜給委員一個書面"},{"start":4757.06,"end":4758.06,"text":"跟委員報告一下"},{"start":4758.06,"end":4760.06,"text":"其實我們現在正在做的"},{"start":4760.06,"end":4761.06,"text":"因為我知道"},{"start":4761.06,"end":4762.06,"text":"因為我還沒看到"},{"start":4762.06,"end":4764.06,"text":"如果你弄完之後"},{"start":4764.06,"end":4767.06,"text":"也可以來我辦公室跟我報告一下"},{"start":4767.06,"end":4768.06,"text":"我對這個很關心"},{"start":4768.06,"end":4770.06,"text":"我可以在兩週內提供委員的報告"},{"start":4770.06,"end":4771.06,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":4771.06,"end":4772.06,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4774.18,"end":4775.18,"text":"謝謝宏偉委員"},{"start":4775.18,"end":4776.18,"text":"謝謝陳主委"},{"start":4787.29,"end":4789.29,"text":"接下來我們請這個中央邊交委"},{"start":4789.95,"end":4790.95,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4796.01,"end":4798.01,"text":"主席再讓委員先進"},{"start":4798.01,"end":4799.01,"text":"列席的政府經濟環境局長官員會長"},{"start":4799.01,"end":4801.01,"text":"觀眾夥伴媒體記者女士先生"},{"start":4801.01,"end":4805.01,"text":"有請公平會陳主委還有經濟部投審司長"},{"start":4805.01,"end":4808.01,"text":"請陳主委還有經濟部投審司長"},{"start":4811.23,"end":4813.23,"text":"主委好 四張好"},{"start":4813.23,"end":4814.23,"text":"好來我們來看一下"},{"start":4814.23,"end":4816.23,"text":"今天排這個專案報告"},{"start":4816.23,"end":4817.23,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":4817.23,"end":4819.23,"text":"其實就是剛好在昨天你們宣布了"},{"start":4819.23,"end":4821.23,"text":"GRAP併購台灣Uber Panda"},{"start":4821.23,"end":4822.23,"text":"你們是禁止結合"},{"start":4822.23,"end":4823.23,"text":"我看了一下報紙"},{"start":4823.23,"end":4827.23,"text":"它是說公平會禁止GRAP跟Uber Panda結合"},{"start":4827.23,"end":4829.23,"text":"點出一個關鍵主因"},{"start":4829.23,"end":4831.23,"text":"我通篇看完不曉得關鍵主因是什麼"},{"start":4831.23,"end":4834.23,"text":"主委你認為你們禁止的關鍵主因是什麼"},{"start":4834.49,"end":4837.49,"text":"我想多數的審查委員的意見應該是認為說"},{"start":4837.49,"end":4839.49,"text":"這裡面有涉及到少數的持股"},{"start":4839.49,"end":4840.49,"text":"那個持股的比例"},{"start":4840.49,"end":4841.49,"text":"簡單講 主因是什麼"},{"start":4841.49,"end":4842.49,"text":"主因就是因為有"},{"start":4842.49,"end":4843.49,"text":"一句話"},{"start":4844.26,"end":4845.26,"text":"彼此之間互相控股"},{"start":4845.26,"end":4848.26,"text":"或是造成可能限制競爭或不競爭"},{"start":4848.26,"end":4850.26,"text":"缺乏積極競爭"},{"start":4850.26,"end":4851.26,"text":"好那我們來看一下"},{"start":4851.26,"end":4856.26,"text":"在之前外送員的團體對於外送長不競爭"},{"start":4856.26,"end":4857.26,"text":"可能會造成勞動權益的損害"},{"start":4857.26,"end":4858.26,"text":"商家權益的損害"},{"start":4858.26,"end":4859.26,"text":"還有資本風險"},{"start":4859.26,"end":4860.26,"text":"來我們看下一頁"},{"start":4860.26,"end":4863.26,"text":"那麼公平會的審查結合審查"},{"start":4863.26,"end":4864.26,"text":"你們第13條說"},{"start":4864.26,"end":4867.26,"text":"整體經濟利益大於限制競爭之不利益"},{"start":4867.26,"end":4868.26,"text":"那我就很好奇"},{"start":4868.26,"end":4872.26,"text":"而且你們也對於附加條件互擔"},{"start":4872.26,"end":4873.26,"text":"你們也把它否准了"},{"start":4873.26,"end":4874.26,"text":"沒有這個選項"},{"start":4874.26,"end":4877.26,"text":"那你們怎麼樣衡量整體經濟利益"},{"start":4877.26,"end":4879.26,"text":"是剛問的經濟部長說"},{"start":4879.26,"end":4880.26,"text":"這個是個創新事業"},{"start":4880.26,"end":4883.26,"text":"那你們要怎麼樣衡量限制競爭的不利益"},{"start":4883.26,"end":4884.26,"text":"也就是說"},{"start":4884.26,"end":4887.26,"text":"當他們說外送員公會"},{"start":4887.26,"end":4890.26,"text":"他們說如果說他們不積極競爭的話"},{"start":4890.26,"end":4893.26,"text":"可能商家的抽成會提高"},{"start":4893.26,"end":4895.26,"text":"可能消費者付的運費會漲價"},{"start":4895.26,"end":4897.26,"text":"可能外送員的燙數會被苛代"},{"start":4897.26,"end":4899.26,"text":"那你們認為"},{"start":4900.01,"end":4902.01,"text":"所有的限制競爭的不利益"},{"start":4902.01,"end":4903.01,"text":"你們怎麼衡量"},{"start":4903.66,"end":4904.66,"text":"簡單來講就是說"},{"start":4904.66,"end":4906.66,"text":"我們會從是不是有利於競爭"},{"start":4906.66,"end":4908.66,"text":"來評斷整體經濟的利益"},{"start":4908.66,"end":4909.66,"text":"所以只要有競爭"},{"start":4909.66,"end":4911.66,"text":"你們就覺得不會有不利益"},{"start":4911.66,"end":4913.66,"text":"基本上這是一個原則"},{"start":4913.66,"end":4914.66,"text":"這原則"},{"start":4914.66,"end":4915.66,"text":"不過邏輯上不一定"},{"start":4915.66,"end":4917.66,"text":"所以我們看的是市場競爭受影響的程度"},{"start":4917.66,"end":4920.66,"text":"對就是說你們在看有沒有競爭"},{"start":4920.66,"end":4921.66,"text":"如果競爭維持"},{"start":4921.66,"end":4924.66,"text":"你們基本上認為不至於有不利益嗎"},{"start":4924.66,"end":4926.66,"text":"競爭如果維持是不是被強化"},{"start":4928.57,"end":4929.57,"text":"原則上"},{"start":4929.57,"end":4932.57,"text":"還是對於不利益跟競爭無關的"},{"start":4932.57,"end":4933.57,"text":"你們就不管"},{"start":4933.57,"end":4935.57,"text":"應該是說如果那個不利益本身"},{"start":4935.57,"end":4937.57,"text":"不是屬於競爭主管機關可以審索的"},{"start":4937.57,"end":4938.57,"text":"原則上我們是不會介入"},{"start":4938.57,"end":4941.57,"text":"所以我們這裡有提到通案"},{"start":4941.57,"end":4944.57,"text":"這裡面所提到的風險跟不利益"},{"start":4945.71,"end":4946.71,"text":"大概你們可以做判斷"},{"start":4946.71,"end":4948.71,"text":"但是風險是另外一個概念"},{"start":4948.71,"end":4950.71,"text":"我想不利益是你們判斷會發生"},{"start":4950.71,"end":4952.71,"text":"風險是不確定會不會發生"},{"start":4952.71,"end":4953.71,"text":"好我們看一看"},{"start":4953.71,"end":4954.71,"text":"好那我們第一個"},{"start":4954.71,"end":4956.71,"text":"你們說在判斷它的限制競爭"},{"start":4956.71,"end":4960.71,"text":"你們認為複雜股權會引起限制競爭"},{"start":4960.71,"end":4961.71,"text":"而且會造成後面的不利"},{"start":4961.71,"end":4962.71,"text":"那你們這裡提到的"},{"start":4962.71,"end":4964.71,"text":"剛剛都講到持股表決"},{"start":4964.71,"end":4966.71,"text":"複雜的股權結構"},{"start":4967.45,"end":4970.45,"text":"現在的跨國企業常常有一個控股公司"},{"start":4970.45,"end":4972.45,"text":"但是這裡出現一個東西叫做"},{"start":4972.45,"end":4974.45,"text":"共同財務誘因"},{"start":4974.45,"end":4975.45,"text":"現行的審查規則"},{"start":4975.45,"end":4978.45,"text":"如何評斷企業之間有複雜股權控股結構"},{"start":4978.45,"end":4979.45,"text":"你們怎麼判斷"},{"start":4979.45,"end":4981.45,"text":"還有所謂的共同財務誘因之下"},{"start":4981.45,"end":4983.45,"text":"如何判斷業者能不能保持競爭"},{"start":4983.45,"end":4984.45,"text":"有沒有一個比較明確"},{"start":4984.45,"end":4985.45,"text":"可以告訴大家一個原則"},{"start":4985.45,"end":4988.45,"text":"關於第一點那個複雜股權控股結構的部分"},{"start":4988.45,"end":4990.45,"text":"剛剛我們已經有已經有下過展覽"},{"start":4990.45,"end":4991.45,"text":"共同財務誘因"},{"start":4991.45,"end":4994.45,"text":"這個是這個案子裡面一個重點"},{"start":4994.45,"end":4996.45,"text":"那我們如果參考國際間的做法"},{"start":4996.45,"end":4998.45,"text":"或是理論實務上的做法"},{"start":4998.45,"end":4999.45,"text":"因為涉及到誘因"},{"start":4999.45,"end":5001.45,"text":"所以誘因本身就是主觀上的東西"},{"start":5001.45,"end":5002.45,"text":"比較難去判斷"},{"start":5002.45,"end":5004.45,"text":"所以我們必須要有客觀的視覺"},{"start":5004.45,"end":5005.45,"text":"是 我就很好奇"},{"start":5005.45,"end":5006.45,"text":"你們怎麼判斷"},{"start":5006.45,"end":5008.45,"text":"那客觀的視覺譬如說"},{"start":5008.45,"end":5010.45,"text":"股東股權分散的程度"},{"start":5010.45,"end":5012.45,"text":"通常股權月集中"},{"start":5014.26,"end":5015.26,"text":"股權的集中程度"},{"start":5015.26,"end":5016.26,"text":"就是目前股東會股權"},{"start":5016.26,"end":5018.26,"text":"還有另外我們還會去看"},{"start":5018.26,"end":5021.26,"text":"這個所謂的這個股東會的情況"},{"start":5021.26,"end":5022.26,"text":"過去招待股東會的情況"},{"start":5022.26,"end":5025.26,"text":"所以但是你們還是聚焦在股權"},{"start":5025.26,"end":5026.26,"text":"那我們講共同財務"},{"start":5026.26,"end":5030.26,"text":"當然還是會投射上股權"},{"start":5030.26,"end":5031.26,"text":"但我們來看一下第二個"},{"start":5031.26,"end":5035.26,"text":"資訊的共享會不會導致一些一致行為或聯合行為"},{"start":5035.26,"end":5038.26,"text":"比如說他共享客戶跟地圖的這演算法的資訊"},{"start":5038.26,"end":5041.26,"text":"比如說他有一致行為"},{"start":5041.26,"end":5042.26,"text":"在這一次行為"},{"start":5042.26,"end":5044.26,"text":"過去台塑跟中油發生過"},{"start":5044.26,"end":5047.26,"text":"他們一起漲價一起調價"},{"start":5047.26,"end":5051.26,"text":"那後來中油被迫要公布他的定價的公示"},{"start":5051.26,"end":5053.26,"text":"那人家說我是按照我的定價公示走的"},{"start":5053.26,"end":5055.26,"text":"所以不是跟他協調的"},{"start":5055.26,"end":5057.26,"text":"另外現在實在進步了"},{"start":5057.26,"end":5059.26,"text":"App的互相串接引導客流"},{"start":5059.26,"end":5061.26,"text":"或者在主業以外的不同市場合作"},{"start":5061.26,"end":5063.26,"text":"甚至國營本他過去被查出說"},{"start":5063.26,"end":5066.26,"text":"曾經簽署互不競爭的協議"},{"start":5066.26,"end":5070.26,"text":"這些好像不能用一個共同財務利益"},{"start":5070.26,"end":5073.26,"text":"的一個誘因來減損他的競爭"},{"start":5073.26,"end":5076.26,"text":"那你們怎麼看共同財務誘因以外的"},{"start":5076.26,"end":5079.26,"text":"其他減損競爭的這些因素呢"},{"start":5079.26,"end":5081.26,"text":"委員談的這個東西是比較屬於"},{"start":5081.26,"end":5084.26,"text":"業者結合以後互相協調一致的行為"},{"start":5084.26,"end":5089.26,"text":"就是說我們在禁止結合書裡面有談到就是說"},{"start":5089.26,"end":5091.26,"text":"審查委員的意見認為說"},{"start":5091.26,"end":5094.26,"text":"因為市場結構會有高度的誘因讓他們會去進行審查"},{"start":5094.26,"end":5099.26,"text":"所以就是說這是在衡量股權或共同財務的誘因之下"},{"start":5099.26,"end":5101.26,"text":"產生了後果會有這些事情"},{"start":5101.8,"end":5107.8,"text":"其實比較強調市場結構面集中度高這些問題"},{"start":5107.8,"end":5112.8,"text":"因為我們在會計上20%的股權是認為會具有重大影響力"},{"start":5112.8,"end":5114.8,"text":"但是在我們公平會審查的時候呢"},{"start":5114.8,"end":5117.8,"text":"是不是也把重大影響力視為一個考量"},{"start":5117.94,"end":5120.94,"text":"就是有重大影響力彼此有重大影響力互通的時候"},{"start":5120.94,"end":5122.94,"text":"就會可能減損他的積極競爭"},{"start":5123.54,"end":5126.54,"text":"當我們要考慮掃出股權的時候這當然就是你要去考慮的意思"},{"start":5126.54,"end":5128.54,"text":"那重大影響要怎麼衡量"},{"start":5128.54,"end":5131.54,"text":"我們不會建立沒辦法建立一個客觀的標準"},{"start":5131.54,"end":5133.54,"text":"我必須要在個案當中去瞭解"},{"start":5133.54,"end":5135.54,"text":"包含過去的歷史紀錄等等各方面"},{"start":5135.54,"end":5136.54,"text":"好謝謝下一頁"},{"start":5136.54,"end":5138.54,"text":"好再來我們就問到了這個大家關心的"},{"start":5138.54,"end":5140.54,"text":"跨國公司的潛在用戶資安風險"},{"start":5140.54,"end":5145.54,"text":"你看在蘋果用戶曾經在中國的iCloud的數據"},{"start":5145.54,"end":5148.54,"text":"這個中國政府要求蘋果要拿出來"},{"start":5148.54,"end":5152.54,"text":"後來或者說臉書他過去跟華為和聯想分享用戶的資料"},{"start":5152.54,"end":5154.54,"text":"大家擔心他洩漏個資給中企"},{"start":5154.54,"end":5155.54,"text":"這是過去發生的事情"},{"start":5155.54,"end":5157.54,"text":"在這次的個案上大家看到了"},{"start":5157.54,"end":5160.54,"text":"未來在外送平台上的消費者個資地圖的圖資"},{"start":5160.54,"end":5162.54,"text":"還有商家的營業資料"},{"start":5162.54,"end":5165.54,"text":"都有可能透過技術合作"},{"start":5165.54,"end":5168.54,"text":"因為國有他在中國有投資有營運"},{"start":5168.54,"end":5170.54,"text":"那這樣的一個資安風險"},{"start":5171.31,"end":5172.31,"text":"會不會"},{"start":5172.68,"end":5174.68,"text":"是公平會要考量的"},{"start":5175.08,"end":5177.08,"text":"我想我的答案就是跟我之前講的"},{"start":5177.08,"end":5180.08,"text":"如果這個東西資訊的資料的取得"},{"start":5180.08,"end":5184.08,"text":"會造成一個事業取得足夠來影響市場競爭的能力"},{"start":5184.08,"end":5185.08,"text":"我們才會介入"},{"start":5185.08,"end":5187.08,"text":"如果純粹只是資安的問題"},{"start":5187.08,"end":5189.08,"text":"那比較適合我們住"},{"start":5189.08,"end":5194.08,"text":"所以你們還是考慮資安會影響到相當於主權的這個股權的重大影響力"},{"start":5194.08,"end":5195.08,"text":"接下來我們問投審司"},{"start":5195.08,"end":5196.08,"text":"我知道公平會很清楚"},{"start":5196.08,"end":5200.08,"text":"你們鎖定在競爭的減損影響力"},{"start":5200.08,"end":5202.08,"text":"那個投審司"},{"start":5202.08,"end":5203.08,"text":"來下一頁"},{"start":5203.88,"end":5204.88,"text":"好 那我們再問一下"},{"start":5204.88,"end":5206.88,"text":"這個目前跨境併購盛行"},{"start":5206.88,"end":5208.88,"text":"股權交錯運作還有資訊共享"},{"start":5208.88,"end":5210.88,"text":"就有資安疑慮對不對"},{"start":5210.88,"end":5211.88,"text":"但是大家在關心說"},{"start":5211.88,"end":5213.88,"text":"那個外國人投資條例第七條"},{"start":5213.88,"end":5216.88,"text":"對國家安全公共秩序善良豐富"},{"start":5216.88,"end":5217.88,"text":"國民健康"},{"start":5219.56,"end":5221.56,"text":"這個居然是你們經濟部投審司"},{"start":5221.56,"end":5222.56,"text":"你們要來看的"},{"start":5222.56,"end":5223.56,"text":"你們怎麼樣"},{"start":5224.42,"end":5227.42,"text":"剛剛公平會已經把他的全責講得很清楚了"},{"start":5227.42,"end":5229.42,"text":"他們關注在競爭的減損有無"},{"start":5229.42,"end":5231.42,"text":"那你們投審司"},{"start":5231.42,"end":5232.42,"text":"過去的投審會"},{"start":5232.42,"end":5233.42,"text":"你們對於這些事情"},{"start":5233.42,"end":5234.42,"text":"你們有沒有具體的規範"},{"start":5235.87,"end":5237.87,"text":"國家安全怎麼具體規範"},{"start":5237.87,"end":5239.87,"text":"就是陳如那個剛剛提到"},{"start":5239.87,"end":5240.87,"text":"我們報告有提到說"},{"start":5240.87,"end":5241.87,"text":"外國人投資條第七條"},{"start":5241.87,"end":5243.87,"text":"其實涉及到國家安全"},{"start":5243.87,"end":5244.87,"text":"對國家安全有不利影響"},{"start":5244.87,"end":5246.87,"text":"我們是可以禁止投資的"},{"start":5246.87,"end":5247.87,"text":"所以其實在我們"},{"start":5247.87,"end":5248.87,"text":"外資的審查的部分"},{"start":5248.87,"end":5251.87,"text":"其實國家安全一向是一個主要的考慮"},{"start":5251.87,"end":5252.87,"text":"好"},{"start":5253.32,"end":5254.32,"text":"國家安全是你們的考量"},{"start":5254.32,"end":5256.32,"text":"但是他們的投資"},{"start":5257.23,"end":5259.23,"text":"我們講的投資好像都只是在資金"},{"start":5259.23,"end":5260.23,"text":"對不對"},{"start":5260.23,"end":5262.23,"text":"但你就是寫從事投資行為"},{"start":5262.23,"end":5264.23,"text":"不管是直接或間接出資"},{"start":5264.23,"end":5266.23,"text":"但後面出現了一個什麼"},{"start":5266.23,"end":5268.23,"text":"控制能力"},{"start":5268.52,"end":5269.52,"text":"控制能力難道一定要"},{"start":5269.52,"end":5271.52,"text":"剛剛我就問公民會"},{"start":5271.52,"end":5272.52,"text":"股權是他們關注的焦點"},{"start":5272.52,"end":5274.52,"text":"共同財務業是他們關注的焦點"},{"start":5274.52,"end":5276.52,"text":"那你們在審的時候只審資金嗎"},{"start":5276.52,"end":5279.52,"text":"只審這個透過資本產生的控制能力呢"},{"start":5279.52,"end":5280.52,"text":"還是其他的控制能力"},{"start":5280.52,"end":5281.52,"text":"你們也考慮得到"},{"start":5283.41,"end":5284.41,"text":"純資金審議為主"},{"start":5284.41,"end":5287.41,"text":"還是考慮到資金包含資金"},{"start":5287.41,"end":5289.41,"text":"在那以外的其他控制能力"},{"start":5289.41,"end":5290.41,"text":"剛剛我們有報告"},{"start":5290.41,"end":5292.41,"text":"原則上我們的外資投資"},{"start":5292.41,"end":5293.41,"text":"第一個要符合外國人投資條例"},{"start":5293.41,"end":5295.41,"text":"所謂的投資的定義"},{"start":5295.41,"end":5297.41,"text":"對那投資的定義是指考慮資金嗎"},{"start":5298.04,"end":5300.04,"text":"包括設計"},{"start":5300.04,"end":5301.04,"text":"給你來講"},{"start":5301.85,"end":5302.85,"text":"市場壓力"},{"start":5303.3,"end":5305.3,"text":"供應商的原料或技術"},{"start":5305.3,"end":5306.3,"text":"你設廠設分公司"},{"start":5306.3,"end":5308.3,"text":"或者說人事的共通"},{"start":5308.3,"end":5310.3,"text":"這些都是有控制能力的"},{"start":5310.3,"end":5313.3,"text":"這些不見得表達在資金上"},{"start":5313.3,"end":5315.3,"text":"就像影響力或共同財務誘因"},{"start":5315.3,"end":5317.3,"text":"在公平所關注的"},{"start":5317.3,"end":5318.3,"text":"不是只表達在什麼"},{"start":5318.3,"end":5319.3,"text":"股權的計算上"},{"start":5319.3,"end":5322.3,"text":"在這裡也不是表達在資金的有無上"},{"start":5322.3,"end":5324.3,"text":"所以要請教你一下"},{"start":5324.3,"end":5327.3,"text":"當你們講的所謂的具有控制能力的時候"},{"start":5327.3,"end":5330.3,"text":"這個控制能力一定投射在反射在"},{"start":5330.81,"end":5331.81,"text":"這個資金嗎"},{"start":5333.1,"end":5337.1,"text":"在外國人投資條例確實就是我們所謂投資的定義"},{"start":5337.1,"end":5339.1,"text":"如果投資不是投資"},{"start":5339.1,"end":5341.1,"text":"是說我幫你代理"},{"start":5342.03,"end":5343.03,"text":"我代理你的產品"},{"start":5343.03,"end":5344.03,"text":"台灣的代理"},{"start":5344.03,"end":5345.03,"text":"我代理你的產品"},{"start":5345.03,"end":5346.03,"text":"疫苗你交給我評"},{"start":5346.03,"end":5347.03,"text":"台灣代理"},{"start":5347.4,"end":5349.4,"text":"可是這個疫苗的公司"},{"start":5349.4,"end":5350.4,"text":"市場可能在中國"},{"start":5350.82,"end":5351.82,"text":"過去就發生了"},{"start":5351.82,"end":5352.82,"text":"對不對"},{"start":5352.82,"end":5354.82,"text":"中國的疫苗市場很大"},{"start":5354.82,"end":5356.82,"text":"我要去爭取台灣的代理"},{"start":5356.82,"end":5357.82,"text":"這個他要進來"},{"start":5358.53,"end":5360.53,"text":"進來台灣弄一個公司"},{"start":5360.53,"end":5362.53,"text":"要來代理某個"},{"start":5362.53,"end":5364.53,"text":"一個國際品牌的疫苗"},{"start":5364.53,"end":5365.53,"text":"那這個時候"},{"start":5366.85,"end":5367.85,"text":"中國那邊"},{"start":5368.73,"end":5370.73,"text":"這個公司在中國的市場"},{"start":5370.68,"end":5371.68,"text":"它的影響力"},{"start":5372.37,"end":5375.37,"text":"會不會影響到它對台灣這個公司"},{"start":5375.8,"end":5377.8,"text":"如果是涉及到入資的部分"},{"start":5377.8,"end":5378.8,"text":"我們確實是有"},{"start":5378.8,"end":5379.8,"text":"沒有啊"},{"start":5379.8,"end":5380.8,"text":"它是台灣的公司沒有入資啊"},{"start":5380.8,"end":5382.8,"text":"它只是代理中國的品牌啊"},{"start":5383.71,"end":5385.71,"text":"或者代理在中國有龐大市場的品牌啊"},{"start":5385.71,"end":5387.71,"text":"這個部分會涉及到"},{"start":5387.71,"end":5388.71,"text":"就是市場壓力啊"},{"start":5388.71,"end":5390.71,"text":"市場壓力會不會造成一個"},{"start":5390.71,"end":5391.71,"text":"間接的控制能力"},{"start":5391.71,"end":5394.71,"text":"這個就要看看那個代理合約裡面的"},{"start":5394.71,"end":5395.71,"text":"細節的規定"},{"start":5395.71,"end":5397.71,"text":"因為有些代理確實是有"},{"start":5397.71,"end":5399.71,"text":"所以就要進入到具體去衡量"},{"start":5399.71,"end":5402.71,"text":"他的對第三地區公司的控制能力的"},{"start":5402.71,"end":5404.71,"text":"具體的項目嘛對不對"},{"start":5404.71,"end":5405.71,"text":"好"},{"start":5405.71,"end":5406.71,"text":"這是我要談的"},{"start":5406.71,"end":5407.71,"text":"好所以我這裡啊"},{"start":5407.71,"end":5408.71,"text":"就簡單講"},{"start":5408.71,"end":5409.71,"text":"請公平委陳主委"},{"start":5411.18,"end":5412.18,"text":"請提供這個指引"},{"start":5412.18,"end":5414.18,"text":"第一你們如何評斷企業之間"},{"start":5414.18,"end":5415.18,"text":"複雜股權控股結構"},{"start":5415.18,"end":5417.18,"text":"以及判斷有共同財務"},{"start":5417.18,"end":5419.18,"text":"又影響企業事務保持競爭"},{"start":5419.18,"end":5420.18,"text":"可以提供一些指引"},{"start":5420.18,"end":5422.18,"text":"第二個除了股權持有比例門檻之外"},{"start":5422.18,"end":5424.18,"text":"這些共同利益的企業"},{"start":5424.18,"end":5425.18,"text":"具有共同利益的企業"},{"start":5425.18,"end":5427.18,"text":"可能出現的其他影響競爭的行為"},{"start":5427.18,"end":5428.18,"text":"要如何衡量"},{"start":5428.18,"end":5429.18,"text":"我知道這個很困難"},{"start":5429.18,"end":5430.18,"text":"有點抽象"},{"start":5430.18,"end":5432.18,"text":"但是是不是可以提供一些指引"},{"start":5432.18,"end":5434.18,"text":"未來呢有這些跨國企業"},{"start":5434.18,"end":5435.18,"text":"當然要進入主台灣"},{"start":5435.18,"end":5437.18,"text":"他們至少清楚的知道"},{"start":5437.18,"end":5439.18,"text":"我國官方的審查標準"},{"start":5439.18,"end":5440.18,"text":"有可能會考慮哪些因素"},{"start":5440.18,"end":5441.18,"text":"可以嗎"},{"start":5441.51,"end":5443.51,"text":"我想基本上未簡單的架構"},{"start":5443.51,"end":5444.51,"text":"我們可以試著去做"},{"start":5444.51,"end":5445.51,"text":"就是指引嘛"},{"start":5445.51,"end":5446.51,"text":"但是指引如果要具體的話"},{"start":5446.51,"end":5448.51,"text":"我覺得那還是要累積執法的經驗才好"},{"start":5448.51,"end":5449.51,"text":"當然當然"},{"start":5449.51,"end":5451.51,"text":"所以我們希望說你們累積"},{"start":5451.51,"end":5452.51,"text":"不斷的出更新指引"},{"start":5452.51,"end":5454.51,"text":"因為指引是一個很好的主管機關"},{"start":5454.51,"end":5456.51,"text":"告訴這些商業行為者"},{"start":5456.51,"end":5458.51,"text":"他要怎麼樣遵守一個市場"},{"start":5458.51,"end":5459.51,"text":"我們要求的規範"},{"start":5459.51,"end":5462.51,"text":"這個指引本來就是一個比較寬鬆的概念"},{"start":5462.51,"end":5464.51,"text":"我們會全部朝具體化"},{"start":5464.51,"end":5465.51,"text":"好來第二個"},{"start":5465.51,"end":5466.51,"text":"來那個就是投審司"},{"start":5466.51,"end":5469.51,"text":"來我國投審司或經濟部"},{"start":5469.51,"end":5472.51,"text":"就跨境投資併購的審查"},{"start":5472.51,"end":5474.51,"text":"是不是你們要納入資金以外"},{"start":5474.51,"end":5478.51,"text":"可能造成國安風險的實質控制力或影響力"},{"start":5478.51,"end":5481.51,"text":"那請這個你們提出一個說明好不好"},{"start":5482.04,"end":5484.04,"text":"就是說你們投審司不是只審他"},{"start":5484.04,"end":5485.04,"text":"他來投資我"},{"start":5485.04,"end":5487.04,"text":"入資來投資這個公司"},{"start":5487.04,"end":5488.04,"text":"你看這是不是入資"},{"start":5488.04,"end":5491.04,"text":"資金有沒有到達可以產生控制力影響"},{"start":5491.04,"end":5492.04,"text":"還要幹什麼"},{"start":5492.04,"end":5495.04,"text":"資金以外資本以外的其他"},{"start":5495.04,"end":5496.04,"text":"他的市場影響力"},{"start":5496.04,"end":5498.04,"text":"他的資訊能影響力等等等"},{"start":5498.04,"end":5499.04,"text":"可以嗎"},{"start":5499.17,"end":5502.17,"text":"各位報告其實現在入資的審查確實就是已經有針對控制"},{"start":5502.17,"end":5504.17,"text":"就不是只是看資本嘛對不對"},{"start":5504.17,"end":5507.17,"text":"不是看說拿人家中國大陸的錢來投台灣的公司嗎"},{"start":5507.17,"end":5508.17,"text":"是"},{"start":5508.17,"end":5510.17,"text":"很好那就請提供一個說明好不好"},{"start":5511.02,"end":5512.02,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":5515.25,"end":5519.25,"text":"好謝謝中央新聞接下來有請謝一鳳委員質詢"},{"start":5530.98,"end":5534.98,"text":"好謝謝主席我想要請公評會的陳主委"},{"start":5534.98,"end":5538.98,"text":"還有投審司蘇司長以及"},{"start":5538.98,"end":5540.98,"text":"速發部的楊次長"},{"start":5540.98,"end":5543.98,"text":"好陳主委楊次長跟那個"},{"start":5543.98,"end":5544.98,"text":"司長"},{"start":5545.48,"end":5546.48,"text":"主委"},{"start":5546.48,"end":5549.48,"text":"你昨天就是你們昨天"},{"start":5549.48,"end":5551.48,"text":"是禁止國安"},{"start":5551.48,"end":5556.48,"text":"並覆盤大是用限制競爭與社會經濟不利益為由"},{"start":5556.48,"end":5559.48,"text":"但是你們堅守了"},{"start":5559.48,"end":5563.48,"text":"治安跟國安不在結合審查的範圍裡面"},{"start":5563.48,"end":5569.48,"text":"那我想請問以後面對到像這樣子類似的跨國的平台"},{"start":5569.48,"end":5571.48,"text":"的並購案件的時候"},{"start":5571.48,"end":5576.48,"text":"你公評會速發部跟國安局等機關怎麼樣子做"},{"start":5576.48,"end":5578.48,"text":"跨部會的連審以及"},{"start":5578.48,"end":5580.48,"text":"諮詢的機制呢"},{"start":5580.48,"end":5583.48,"text":"我先跟委員報告一下就是說在具體的個案當中"},{"start":5583.48,"end":5586.48,"text":"重大特別是重大結合案只要有涉及到"},{"start":5586.48,"end":5589.48,"text":"一般相關機關或民眾的反應到這個問題"},{"start":5589.48,"end":5592.48,"text":"其實我們都會會商其他的部會"},{"start":5592.48,"end":5594.48,"text":"請他們提供專業上的意見給我們參考"},{"start":5594.48,"end":5596.48,"text":"所以你們沒有一起審查是會商"},{"start":5596.48,"end":5597.48,"text":"對對"},{"start":5597.48,"end":5598.48,"text":"以會商的方式"},{"start":5598.48,"end":5600.48,"text":"當然我們有時候會召開座談會"},{"start":5600.48,"end":5602.48,"text":"也會邀請各機關的代表來"},{"start":5602.48,"end":5606.48,"text":"跟我們進行一個實質的討論提供專業的"},{"start":5606.48,"end":5609.48,"text":"你剛才也提到了就是說未來如果"},{"start":5609.48,"end":5614.48,"text":"像FUPENDA就是說Uber去併了FUPENDA"},{"start":5614.48,"end":5618.48,"text":"外國的母公司就是像Delivery Hero等"},{"start":5618.48,"end":5621.48,"text":"那也要經過公評會的審查是不是"},{"start":5621.85,"end":5625.85,"text":"因為我們在台灣之前兩年前我們是禁止Uber跟FUPENDA的結合"},{"start":5625.85,"end":5631.85,"text":"所以如果母公司在國外收購Delivery Hero的股權"},{"start":5631.85,"end":5634.85,"text":"有沒有涉及到違反我們禁止的規定"},{"start":5634.85,"end":5636.85,"text":"這是一個另外一個可以來進一步了解的案子"},{"start":5636.85,"end":5638.85,"text":"那你們會主動調查還是怎樣"},{"start":5638.85,"end":5640.85,"text":"我們要看實際他們在國外收購的情形怎麼樣"},{"start":5640.85,"end":5642.85,"text":"不是你們有辦法嗎"},{"start":5642.85,"end":5645.85,"text":"因為他就是違反我們當初禁止的處分"},{"start":5645.85,"end":5647.85,"text":"所以這個是我們可以"},{"start":5647.85,"end":5650.85,"text":"我們是可以說他可能會違反我們當初禁止的處分"},{"start":5650.85,"end":5652.85,"text":"我們要進行調查後續的調查"},{"start":5652.85,"end":5655.85,"text":"好所以可是因為CCS是跨境公司"},{"start":5655.85,"end":5658.85,"text":"那因為他的設立不在台灣"},{"start":5658.85,"end":5663.85,"text":"那你有辦法認定說這樣子他的接落的自主"},{"start":5663.85,"end":5669.85,"text":"以及你們有充分的調查權的這樣子的一個"},{"start":5669.85,"end":5671.85,"text":"能夠跟國際競爭單局"},{"start":5671.85,"end":5675.85,"text":"像那個FTC或者EC或者CCCS等等"},{"start":5675.85,"end":5677.85,"text":"你們有建立溝通管道嗎"},{"start":5677.85,"end":5679.85,"text":"我們是有一些溝通的管道"},{"start":5679.85,"end":5680.85,"text":"你們有嗎"},{"start":5680.85,"end":5682.85,"text":"我們是可以跟這些機關之間"},{"start":5682.85,"end":5683.85,"text":"所以你們跟美國跟歐盟"},{"start":5683.85,"end":5685.85,"text":"但是我要跟委員報告就是說"},{"start":5685.85,"end":5688.85,"text":"我們會跟他表達說我們希望他能夠提供什麼樣的資訊"},{"start":5688.85,"end":5691.85,"text":"所以你們有辦法穿透這樣子離案的架構"},{"start":5691.85,"end":5693.85,"text":"不正是在台灣的架構"},{"start":5693.85,"end":5695.85,"text":"對方的機關願不願意提供支持對方機關的權限"},{"start":5695.85,"end":5699.85,"text":"但是我們是可以有一些管道可以來跟對方表達是不是很OK"},{"start":5699.85,"end":5702.85,"text":"所以你們有管道但是不一定可以拿到資訊"},{"start":5702.85,"end":5704.85,"text":"不一定可以拿得到資訊是不是"},{"start":5704.85,"end":5705.85,"text":"是這必須跟委員講"},{"start":5705.85,"end":5708.85,"text":"好那投審師我也想請教一下投審師"},{"start":5708.85,"end":5711.85,"text":"就是剛才大家也提到了"},{"start":5711.85,"end":5714.85,"text":"就是外國人投資條例第七條裡面"},{"start":5714.85,"end":5716.85,"text":"對於像剛才"},{"start":5718.21,"end":5719.21,"text":"公平會所說的"},{"start":5719.21,"end":5724.21,"text":"他們不會就這些知安跟國安的這個審查"},{"start":5724.21,"end":5725.21,"text":"那投審師呢"},{"start":5725.21,"end":5726.21,"text":"你有沒有辦法呢"},{"start":5726.21,"end":5731.21,"text":"就是未來如果對國家安全跟公共秩序不利的時候"},{"start":5731.21,"end":5735.21,"text":"你有沒有辦法對投資案件的法理標準"},{"start":5735.21,"end":5737.21,"text":"跟這些裁量的界限"},{"start":5737.21,"end":5741.21,"text":"你能夠獨立的去對這些"},{"start":5741.78,"end":5743.78,"text":"有這個國安的否決權"},{"start":5744.45,"end":5747.45,"text":"這些就是說相關的那個公司的併購"},{"start":5747.45,"end":5749.45,"text":"有國安的否決權"},{"start":5749.45,"end":5750.45,"text":"你有嗎"},{"start":5750.45,"end":5751.45,"text":"跟委員拍拔"},{"start":5751.45,"end":5753.45,"text":"因為只要他是一個外資的投資案"},{"start":5753.45,"end":5756.45,"text":"原則上就是要經過經濟部的同意"},{"start":5756.45,"end":5759.45,"text":"那我們在審查外資的部分"},{"start":5759.45,"end":5762.45,"text":"有一個投資審議會的一個跨部會的平台"},{"start":5762.45,"end":5764.45,"text":"那包括像國安局陸委會"},{"start":5764.45,"end":5767.45,"text":"數位部勞動部等等的都有在裡面"},{"start":5767.45,"end":5768.45,"text":"那像剛剛提到"},{"start":5768.45,"end":5770.45,"text":"如果這個案子涉及到結合的話"},{"start":5770.45,"end":5773.45,"text":"也是會請公平會這邊表示意見"},{"start":5773.45,"end":5776.45,"text":"那所以原則上我們在審查的時候"},{"start":5776.45,"end":5778.45,"text":"會針對投資人提出來的投資計畫"},{"start":5778.45,"end":5781.45,"text":"先送審各部會去表示意見"},{"start":5781.45,"end":5784.45,"text":"那如果有提到有一些資安國安疑慮的話"},{"start":5784.45,"end":5786.45,"text":"會再請投資人補充說明"},{"start":5786.45,"end":5790.45,"text":"那最後我們會根據這整個釐清的結果"},{"start":5790.45,"end":5792.45,"text":"再做一個跨部會的審查"},{"start":5793.12,"end":5798.12,"text":"所以那是不是你對他有國安的最終否決權"},{"start":5798.96,"end":5800.96,"text":"如果有國安疑慮的話"},{"start":5800.96,"end":5802.96,"text":"所以投資人是有嗎"},{"start":5802.96,"end":5804.96,"text":"我們可以依國安理由不以核准"},{"start":5804.96,"end":5805.96,"text":"所以可以是不是"},{"start":5805.96,"end":5806.96,"text":"是"},{"start":5806.96,"end":5812.96,"text":"還有像這樣子大就是說像這樣子跨境的這個就是併購案"},{"start":5812.96,"end":5815.96,"text":"他可能掌握了有消費者的行為"},{"start":5815.96,"end":5817.96,"text":"有這個運送員的軌跡"},{"start":5817.96,"end":5820.96,"text":"以及店家的商業的情報等等"},{"start":5820.96,"end":5824.96,"text":"這樣子大量的那個BitData的時候"},{"start":5824.96,"end":5830.96,"text":"那你怎麼樣子就是說來要求他不准就是說"},{"start":5830.96,"end":5832.96,"text":"沒有不准就是跨境儲存"},{"start":5834.24,"end":5836.24,"text":"或者是在地儲存"},{"start":5836.11,"end":5838.11,"text":"你有沒有辦法"},{"start":5837.72,"end":5839.72,"text":"啊"},{"start":5838.71,"end":5840.71,"text":"這個部分可能還是要回歸到"},{"start":5840.71,"end":5843.71,"text":"比如說像個資法那個可不可以境外儲存的問題"},{"start":5843.71,"end":5846.71,"text":"那當然我們在外資審查的部分"},{"start":5846.71,"end":5848.71,"text":"也可以另外提出要求說"},{"start":5848.71,"end":5851.71,"text":"比如說我要求你的資料必須存放在境內"},{"start":5851.71,"end":5854.71,"text":"我才同意你用這種附條件的方式許可"},{"start":5854.71,"end":5856.71,"text":"還是這個部分事情"},{"start":5856.71,"end":5859.71,"text":"我們問一下那個抒發部的楊市長好不好"},{"start":5859.71,"end":5861.71,"text":"還是這個部分是由抒發部來"},{"start":5863.34,"end":5865.34,"text":"要求的"},{"start":5864.8,"end":5868.8,"text":"是這樣就是說我們就是在審"},{"start":5868.8,"end":5870.8,"text":"他是不是要這個冰鑼案通過的時候"},{"start":5870.8,"end":5873.8,"text":"我們的意見就是希望他們可以來規範這樣子"},{"start":5873.8,"end":5877.8,"text":"對就是資料的管理跟影視權的保護"},{"start":5877.8,"end":5880.8,"text":"還有在地儲存這個是你們會規範嗎"},{"start":5880.8,"end":5881.8,"text":"我們是提供他們的建議"},{"start":5881.8,"end":5883.8,"text":"因為在法規上目前是以個資法"},{"start":5883.8,"end":5887.8,"text":"可是他是通案上是沒有明文禁止"},{"start":5887.8,"end":5889.8,"text":"沒有明文禁止"},{"start":5889.8,"end":5891.8,"text":"只是那附帶條件呢"},{"start":5891.8,"end":5893.8,"text":"是你們同審"},{"start":5893.8,"end":5896.8,"text":"同審司書市長你們可以用附帶條件嗎"},{"start":5896.8,"end":5898.8,"text":"是如果說用附帶條件的方式"},{"start":5898.8,"end":5901.8,"text":"可以消除這個資安的疑慮的話"},{"start":5901.8,"end":5904.8,"text":"那我們就可能會用附帶條件方式再許可"},{"start":5904.8,"end":5907.8,"text":"那再請問一下楊市長"},{"start":5907.8,"end":5909.8,"text":"那附帶條件就是說"},{"start":5909.8,"end":5912.8,"text":"如果禁止他就是說"},{"start":5912.8,"end":5915.8,"text":"就是說一定要在地儲存"},{"start":5915.8,"end":5917.8,"text":"然後以及資安保護的原則"},{"start":5918.8,"end":5921.8,"text":"即便他現在儲存在台灣了"},{"start":5921.8,"end":5923.8,"text":"他有沒有辦法用API連線"},{"start":5923.8,"end":5926.8,"text":"或者是就是說跨境運維的方式"},{"start":5926.8,"end":5928.8,"text":"能取得這些資訊"},{"start":5928.8,"end":5931.8,"text":"就是在規定上我們會明文"},{"start":5931.8,"end":5932.8,"text":"就是如果有附帶條件"},{"start":5932.8,"end":5934.8,"text":"可以明文禁止他們來"},{"start":5934.8,"end":5938.8,"text":"大陸來access這樣的一個資料庫"},{"start":5938.8,"end":5940.8,"text":"也不一定是大陸啦"},{"start":5940.8,"end":5942.8,"text":"因為你知道嗎"},{"start":5942.8,"end":5944.8,"text":"跨境有時候也不一定在大陸嘛"},{"start":5944.8,"end":5947.8,"text":"那就是說你在這樣子"},{"start":5947.8,"end":5949.8,"text":"就是說他的API連線"},{"start":5949.8,"end":5951.8,"text":"以及跨境的這樣子運維的情況下"},{"start":5951.8,"end":5954.8,"text":"你怎麼樣子做到資安的監管"},{"start":5955.68,"end":5957.68,"text":"我們可以去測試他們違反"},{"start":5957.68,"end":5960.68,"text":"當初他在附帶條件規範的"},{"start":5960.68,"end":5961.68,"text":"如果他違反了"},{"start":5961.68,"end":5962.68,"text":"他其實就違反我們的"},{"start":5963.37,"end":5966.37,"text":"所以你們會去監控"},{"start":5966.37,"end":5967.37,"text":"可以測試"},{"start":5967.37,"end":5968.37,"text":"可以測試嘛"},{"start":5968.37,"end":5970.37,"text":"你們可以測試他會不會違反嘛"},{"start":5970.37,"end":5971.37,"text":"是不是"},{"start":5971.37,"end":5972.37,"text":"對"},{"start":5972.37,"end":5974.37,"text":"那所以你是說只要"},{"start":5974.37,"end":5975.37,"text":"他儲存在台灣"},{"start":5975.37,"end":5978.37,"text":"就有辦法就是說去監控"},{"start":5979.23,"end":5980.23,"text":"可以監控"},{"start":5980.23,"end":5981.23,"text":"測試"},{"start":5981.23,"end":5983.23,"text":"就是可以測試跟監管"},{"start":5983.23,"end":5984.23,"text":"是不是"},{"start":5984.23,"end":5985.23,"text":"數字發布有辦法嗎"},{"start":5985.23,"end":5986.23,"text":"對"},{"start":5986.23,"end":5987.23,"text":"可是要在業務主管機關"},{"start":5987.23,"end":5989.23,"text":"有個明文的規定完之後"},{"start":5989.23,"end":5990.23,"text":"就會來"},{"start":5990.23,"end":5991.23,"text":"我們就幫他來做這個檢測"},{"start":5991.23,"end":5994.23,"text":"他是違反當初我們併購完"},{"start":5994.23,"end":5995.23,"text":"進來的規範"},{"start":5995.23,"end":5999.23,"text":"那如果這些跨境的公司"},{"start":5999.23,"end":6001.23,"text":"以國際貿易的協定"},{"start":6001.23,"end":6004.23,"text":"像CPTPP或者是跨境數據"},{"start":6004.23,"end":6007.23,"text":"自由流動的原則提出"},{"start":6007.23,"end":6010.23,"text":"跟就是說國際仲裁單位"},{"start":6010.23,"end":6011.23,"text":"提出抗辯的時候"},{"start":6011.23,"end":6012.23,"text":"那你怎麼樣子"},{"start":6012.98,"end":6015.98,"text":"維護我們治安防禦的正當性"},{"start":6017.67,"end":6018.67,"text":"就是他是不是"},{"start":6018.67,"end":6019.67,"text":"違國際的法規的時候"},{"start":6020.71,"end":6021.71,"text":"違反國際法規的這個"},{"start":6021.71,"end":6023.71,"text":"由目的市業主管協議員認定完之後"},{"start":6023.71,"end":6026.71,"text":"我們就會從技術上來佐證"},{"start":6026.71,"end":6028.71,"text":"他是不是有違反這些法規"},{"start":6028.71,"end":6030.71,"text":"可是如果他透過了"},{"start":6030.71,"end":6033.71,"text":"像CPTPP這樣子的貿易機構"},{"start":6033.71,"end":6035.71,"text":"那經濟部投審師呢"},{"start":6037.38,"end":6038.38,"text":"剛委員報"},{"start":6038.38,"end":6040.38,"text":"其實如果我們需要加這個"},{"start":6040.38,"end":6041.38,"text":"付款其實這是基於"},{"start":6041.38,"end":6042.38,"text":"國家安全的考量"},{"start":6042.38,"end":6044.38,"text":"所以我想根據國家安全"},{"start":6044.38,"end":6047.38,"text":"這個議題原則上應該不會受到"},{"start":6047.38,"end":6049.38,"text":"相關規範的一個限制"},{"start":6049.38,"end":6051.38,"text":"我說不會受到國際單位"},{"start":6051.38,"end":6052.38,"text":"對 因為每個國家"},{"start":6052.38,"end":6054.38,"text":"都有每個國家安全的考量"},{"start":6054.38,"end":6056.38,"text":"那其他國家的跨境的"},{"start":6056.38,"end":6059.38,"text":"他們要求是在地儲存嗎"},{"start":6059.38,"end":6061.38,"text":"因為我想這個部分會落在"},{"start":6061.38,"end":6064.38,"text":"我們外資審查的一個付款的部分"},{"start":6064.38,"end":6065.38,"text":"到底不是說"},{"start":6065.38,"end":6067.38,"text":"因為有些我們要求的東西"},{"start":6067.38,"end":6068.38,"text":"可能會比"},{"start":6070.24,"end":6073.24,"text":"法規就比如說像個資的規定更高"},{"start":6073.24,"end":6075.24,"text":"因為我們有我們自己的安全考量"},{"start":6075.24,"end":6078.24,"text":"對 因為我就是了解就是說"},{"start":6078.24,"end":6080.24,"text":"好 當我們提出這樣的要求"},{"start":6080.24,"end":6082.24,"text":"希望說他們在地儲存"},{"start":6082.24,"end":6084.24,"text":"以及基於資安"},{"start":6084.24,"end":6086.24,"text":"跟資料保護原則的時候"},{"start":6086.24,"end":6087.24,"text":"會不會影響到就是說"},{"start":6087.24,"end":6091.24,"text":"會不會就是違背了國際的法規"},{"start":6093.78,"end":6094.78,"text":"國際的貿易法規"},{"start":6095.45,"end":6097.45,"text":"這個應該不至於啦"},{"start":6097.45,"end":6099.45,"text":"因為我們還是以國家安全的這個角度"},{"start":6099.45,"end":6101.45,"text":"去下這個付款的"},{"start":6101.45,"end":6103.45,"text":"好 那所以是因為"},{"start":6104.5,"end":6106.5,"text":"是因為我們現在跟"},{"start":6106.5,"end":6108.5,"text":"像剛才公評會主委所提到的"},{"start":6108.5,"end":6110.5,"text":"就是因為我們跟這些"},{"start":6110.5,"end":6113.5,"text":"跨國的這樣子的一些機構"},{"start":6113.5,"end":6115.5,"text":"目前即便有溝通管道"},{"start":6115.5,"end":6117.5,"text":"是不是也並不是完全暢通"},{"start":6121.57,"end":6122.57,"text":"是不是"},{"start":6123.08,"end":6125.08,"text":"是因為這樣的原因嗎"},{"start":6126.94,"end":6127.94,"text":"跟委員報告一下"},{"start":6127.94,"end":6128.94,"text":"就是如果剛剛講"},{"start":6128.94,"end":6129.94,"text":"我們是有一些管道可以來"},{"start":6129.94,"end":6131.94,"text":"跟國外的執法機關來進行交流"},{"start":6131.94,"end":6134.94,"text":"事實上在GRAB這個案子裡面"},{"start":6134.94,"end":6136.94,"text":"我們事實上有跟東南亞幾個國家"},{"start":6136.94,"end":6138.94,"text":"來參考他們的執法經驗"},{"start":6138.94,"end":6139.94,"text":"甚至有交換意見"},{"start":6139.94,"end":6140.94,"text":"但是我剛剛談的就是說"},{"start":6140.94,"end":6141.94,"text":"那個管道存在"},{"start":6141.94,"end":6143.94,"text":"但是對方願意提供什麼東西"},{"start":6143.94,"end":6144.94,"text":"到什麼程度"},{"start":6144.94,"end":6146.94,"text":"這個是取決於他們的決定"},{"start":6146.94,"end":6147.94,"text":"對 我是說"},{"start":6147.94,"end":6150.94,"text":"當我是說投水是這樣說的時候"},{"start":6150.94,"end":6153.94,"text":"我是說是不是也取決於"},{"start":6153.94,"end":6154.94,"text":"就是說外國機構"},{"start":6154.94,"end":6156.94,"text":"外國的貿易單位會不會覺得說"},{"start":6156.94,"end":6159.94,"text":"我們有違反到國際貿易相關的法規呢"},{"start":6165.48,"end":6166.48,"text":"這個"},{"start":6167.57,"end":6168.57,"text":"應該這樣講就是說"},{"start":6168.57,"end":6171.57,"text":"其實在整個審查的過程中"},{"start":6171.57,"end":6172.57,"text":"我們會認為說"},{"start":6172.57,"end":6175.57,"text":"比如說他資料必須儲存在境內"},{"start":6175.57,"end":6176.57,"text":"才符合的話"},{"start":6176.57,"end":6178.57,"text":"那我們會跟投資人提出要求"},{"start":6178.57,"end":6180.57,"text":"其實最後都是投資人同意"},{"start":6180.57,"end":6181.57,"text":"我們來這樣做"},{"start":6181.57,"end":6183.57,"text":"那如果他不同意的話"},{"start":6183.57,"end":6184.57,"text":"我們就可能"},{"start":6186.72,"end":6187.72,"text":"這個方式"},{"start":6187.72,"end":6188.72,"text":"因為"},{"start":6188.72,"end":6189.72,"text":"好 我了解喔"},{"start":6189.72,"end":6194.72,"text":"所以以投審會跟訴發部的意思就是說"},{"start":6194.72,"end":6195.72,"text":"訴發部認為只要"},{"start":6195.72,"end":6199.72,"text":"就是他的資料中心儲存在國內的時候"},{"start":6199.72,"end":6201.72,"text":"我們就有辦法去監管"},{"start":6201.72,"end":6204.72,"text":"以及去測試他的安全性是不是"},{"start":6204.72,"end":6205.72,"text":"目前有具體的方式"},{"start":6205.72,"end":6208.72,"text":"可以監管以及測試他的安全性"},{"start":6208.72,"end":6209.72,"text":"可以 是不是"},{"start":6209.72,"end":6210.72,"text":"那如果"},{"start":6210.72,"end":6212.72,"text":"那所以投審會的意見是"},{"start":6212.72,"end":6215.72,"text":"如果沒有辦法就地儲存的時候"},{"start":6215.72,"end":6216.72,"text":"那我們就是說"},{"start":6216.72,"end":6219.72,"text":"或者是會認為違反了"},{"start":6219.72,"end":6220.72,"text":"其他的相關規定的時候"},{"start":6220.72,"end":6222.72,"text":"你就不會給他通過嗎"},{"start":6222.72,"end":6223.72,"text":"是不是這個意思"},{"start":6223.72,"end":6224.72,"text":"這個可能還是要看個案啦"},{"start":6224.72,"end":6225.72,"text":"當然有一些"},{"start":6225.72,"end":6227.72,"text":"如果他是大量的個資"},{"start":6227.72,"end":6230.72,"text":"我們當然會希望在境內會比較好"},{"start":6230.72,"end":6232.72,"text":"可是不見得每個個案"},{"start":6232.72,"end":6235.72,"text":"他的個資的掌握的狀況"},{"start":6235.72,"end":6236.72,"text":"都到這個程度"},{"start":6236.72,"end":6238.72,"text":"那有些可能他會提出說"},{"start":6238.72,"end":6239.72,"text":"比如說"},{"start":6239.72,"end":6240.72,"text":"比如說"},{"start":6240.72,"end":6241.72,"text":"組資料會存在台灣"},{"start":6241.72,"end":6243.72,"text":"備份資料存在境外"},{"start":6243.72,"end":6246.72,"text":"那我們當然還會再瞭解境外是哪個地方"},{"start":6246.72,"end":6247.72,"text":"那類似這樣的方式"},{"start":6247.72,"end":6248.72,"text":"那當然"},{"start":6248.72,"end":6250.72,"text":"他提出的方案如果經過"},{"start":6250.72,"end":6252.72,"text":"比如說像訴訟部"},{"start":6252.72,"end":6253.72,"text":"他覺得這個是可行的"},{"start":6253.72,"end":6256.72,"text":"那原則上我們還是可能會同意"},{"start":6256.72,"end":6257.72,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":6259.54,"end":6260.54,"text":"好 謝謝委員"},{"start":6260.54,"end":6261.54,"text":"謝謝市長"},{"start":6261.54,"end":6263.54,"text":"好 接下來有請"},{"start":6263.54,"end":6265.54,"text":"邱志偉委員質詢"},{"start":6288.1,"end":6289.1,"text":"好 謝謝主席"},{"start":6289.1,"end":6291.1,"text":"是不是先請公平會代理主委"},{"start":6291.1,"end":6293.1,"text":"好 請公平會陳主委"},{"start":6299.52,"end":6300.52,"text":"主委好"},{"start":6300.52,"end":6302.52,"text":"那個昨天你們就決議嘛"},{"start":6302.52,"end":6304.52,"text":"決議禁止這個"},{"start":6304.52,"end":6306.52,"text":"跟那個FAPEMBA結合"},{"start":6307.32,"end":6309.32,"text":"那當然這個主因"},{"start":6309.32,"end":6311.32,"text":"大概今天媒體有大幅度的報導"},{"start":6311.32,"end":6312.32,"text":"你們報導也有寫"},{"start":6312.72,"end":6315.72,"text":"因為他有這個表決權的問題"},{"start":6315.72,"end":6316.72,"text":"而且"},{"start":6317.85,"end":6319.85,"text":"懂事有堅韌的歷史"},{"start":6319.85,"end":6320.85,"text":"當然這個"},{"start":6321.41,"end":6324.41,"text":"會降低積極競爭的誘因"},{"start":6324.41,"end":6326.41,"text":"然後增加相互配合"},{"start":6326.41,"end":6329.41,"text":"相互相互相互配合的協調風險"},{"start":6330.82,"end":6331.82,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6332.54,"end":6333.54,"text":"都從業者所提的"},{"start":6333.54,"end":6336.54,"text":"限制競爭敏感資訊的交流"},{"start":6336.54,"end":6338.54,"text":"這些行為承諾"},{"start":6338.54,"end":6341.54,"text":"無法確保實際上能夠有效執行嗎"},{"start":6341.72,"end":6344.72,"text":"今天我看到你們說的很清楚"},{"start":6344.72,"end":6346.72,"text":"公平法第13條"},{"start":6346.72,"end":6348.72,"text":"是以整體經濟利益"},{"start":6349.5,"end":6351.5,"text":"是否大於限制競爭不利"},{"start":6352.69,"end":6356.69,"text":"作為結合審查判斷的基準"},{"start":6356.69,"end":6357.69,"text":"這是一個"},{"start":6357.98,"end":6359.98,"text":"最大的原則"},{"start":6359.98,"end":6360.98,"text":"也是這個決策依據"},{"start":6361.67,"end":6363.67,"text":"那你說勞權的"},{"start":6363.67,"end":6365.67,"text":"或者工作權的這個保障"},{"start":6366.4,"end":6367.4,"text":"跟資產等等"},{"start":6368.37,"end":6372.37,"text":"這個屬於整體非整體經濟利益"},{"start":6372.89,"end":6374.89,"text":"就等於說非經濟性的增生目標"},{"start":6376.1,"end":6380.1,"text":"這也不是你們在審查結合的考量範圍"},{"start":6382.03,"end":6383.03,"text":"也有各主管機關"},{"start":6383.03,"end":6385.03,"text":"另一專法審核規範"},{"start":6385.86,"end":6386.86,"text":"一 二"},{"start":6387.06,"end":6389.06,"text":"這個你們只負責整體經濟利益"},{"start":6389.06,"end":6391.06,"text":"是否大於限制競爭不利益嗎"},{"start":6391.06,"end":6394.06,"text":"其他的資安就是可能是蘇發部"},{"start":6394.06,"end":6397.06,"text":"這個勞權的部分就可能是勞動部"},{"start":6398.22,"end":6399.22,"text":"我跟委員"},{"start":6399.22,"end":6401.22,"text":"你覺得現行這種這個"},{"start":6401.22,"end":6403.22,"text":"結束模式是否適合"},{"start":6403.22,"end":6405.22,"text":"進一步補充一下"},{"start":6405.22,"end":6406.22,"text":"這個基本原則是這樣"},{"start":6407.68,"end":6409.68,"text":"整體經濟利益跟限制競爭的不利益"},{"start":6409.68,"end":6411.68,"text":"整體經濟利益的出現"},{"start":6411.68,"end":6414.68,"text":"必須要是導致於競爭的結果"},{"start":6414.68,"end":6416.68,"text":"所以我們在審查這兩個因素的時候"},{"start":6416.68,"end":6417.68,"text":"我們會把它連結到"},{"start":6417.68,"end":6420.68,"text":"到底是不是造成競爭的受損"},{"start":6420.68,"end":6421.68,"text":"或是競爭的提升"},{"start":6421.68,"end":6424.68,"text":"所以我剛剛有跟其他委員報告過就是說"},{"start":6424.68,"end":6428.68,"text":"如果今天的議題純粹就是國安資安勞權"},{"start":6428.68,"end":6430.68,"text":"它跟競爭沒有關聯性的話"},{"start":6430.68,"end":6432.68,"text":"那這部分我們會請產業主管機關"},{"start":6432.68,"end":6434.68,"text":"還有目的式的主管機關來今天判斷"},{"start":6436.47,"end":6437.47,"text":"但是並不排除說"},{"start":6437.47,"end":6439.47,"text":"我們對這些議題完全都可以不管"},{"start":6439.47,"end":6441.47,"text":"譬如說假設你對資安的收集"},{"start":6441.47,"end":6443.47,"text":"對各自的收集已經大到"},{"start":6443.47,"end":6446.47,"text":"你已經享有足夠的權力跟市場力量"},{"start":6446.47,"end":6448.47,"text":"可以來排除市場競爭的時候"},{"start":6448.47,"end":6449.47,"text":"我們還是有介入的空間"},{"start":6449.47,"end":6452.47,"text":"只是說在實務上我們沒有看到"},{"start":6452.47,"end":6454.47,"text":"大部分的個案都比較沒有這個問題"},{"start":6454.47,"end":6455.47,"text":"所以一種scenario的時候"},{"start":6455.47,"end":6456.47,"text":"你的判斷整體經濟利益"},{"start":6456.47,"end":6459.47,"text":"是已經大於限制競爭不利益"},{"start":6459.47,"end":6462.47,"text":"但是它會同時出現資安的問題"},{"start":6462.47,"end":6465.47,"text":"或者是工作權保障的問題"},{"start":6466.19,"end":6468.19,"text":"當這個因素很巨大的時候"},{"start":6469.12,"end":6470.12,"text":"嚴重影響資安"},{"start":6470.12,"end":6473.12,"text":"或者嚴重對工作權有一些傷害的時候"},{"start":6473.12,"end":6474.12,"text":"那我們決策會怎麼樣"},{"start":6474.12,"end":6476.12,"text":"我們會把這個相關的議題納入到"},{"start":6476.12,"end":6479.12,"text":"是不是跟競爭的評估有關"},{"start":6479.12,"end":6480.12,"text":"如果有關的話"},{"start":6480.12,"end":6482.12,"text":"當然我們不排除可以審查"},{"start":6482.12,"end":6484.12,"text":"如果純粹就是非常純粹產業政策"},{"start":6484.12,"end":6486.12,"text":"勞工政策的保護等等各方面問題"},{"start":6486.12,"end":6488.12,"text":"那這個我們覺得還是比較適合"},{"start":6488.12,"end":6491.12,"text":"由目的式的主管機關來進行相關的審查"},{"start":6491.12,"end":6492.12,"text":"我們的立場大概是這樣"},{"start":6492.12,"end":6495.12,"text":"相關審查他們如果不建議"},{"start":6495.87,"end":6497.87,"text":"不建議這個投議"},{"start":6498.23,"end":6500.23,"text":"不建議這個這個"},{"start":6500.44,"end":6501.44,"text":"這個何必論"},{"start":6502.91,"end":6504.91,"text":"相關部會的審查意見"},{"start":6504.91,"end":6505.91,"text":"我們其實大概事前"},{"start":6505.91,"end":6507.91,"text":"我們都會有一些跨部會的協商"},{"start":6507.91,"end":6509.91,"text":"或是跨部會的座談"},{"start":6509.91,"end":6510.91,"text":"我們來收集他們的意見"},{"start":6510.91,"end":6511.91,"text":"他們意見"},{"start":6511.91,"end":6512.91,"text":"當然如果說他們認為說"},{"start":6512.91,"end":6514.91,"text":"從他們主管業務的範圍來看"},{"start":6514.91,"end":6515.91,"text":"是不適合通過"},{"start":6515.91,"end":6518.91,"text":"我們還是會在委員會裡面會去考慮說"},{"start":6518.91,"end":6521.91,"text":"他們會明確表示說這個不宜通過"},{"start":6522.75,"end":6524.75,"text":"還是審慎評估"},{"start":6524.46,"end":6525.46,"text":"還是"},{"start":6526.13,"end":6528.13,"text":"明確說是不宜通過"},{"start":6528.32,"end":6531.32,"text":"或者是把一些資料"},{"start":6531.32,"end":6534.32,"text":"或者是交由公民會來做判斷"},{"start":6534.32,"end":6536.32,"text":"我想各部會都會從他們專業"},{"start":6536.32,"end":6538.32,"text":"來提供我們一些詳實的資料"},{"start":6538.32,"end":6539.32,"text":"但對於結論的部分"},{"start":6539.32,"end":6540.32,"text":"他不會給答案"},{"start":6540.32,"end":6543.32,"text":"結論部分通常他們會尊重本會的判斷"},{"start":6543.32,"end":6545.32,"text":"但是他會建議我們"},{"start":6545.32,"end":6547.32,"text":"他們提供資料你要不要採用"},{"start":6547.32,"end":6550.32,"text":"你會不會確認這些資料"},{"start":6550.32,"end":6553.32,"text":"是對你們決策是一個重要的依據"},{"start":6553.32,"end":6554.32,"text":"是你們在確認嗎"},{"start":6554.32,"end":6556.32,"text":"我們會在委員會裡面討論這些相關部會"},{"start":6556.32,"end":6557.32,"text":"提出來的意見"},{"start":6557.32,"end":6558.32,"text":"來決定要不要採用"},{"start":6558.32,"end":6560.32,"text":"另外你們今天報告也說"},{"start":6560.32,"end":6563.32,"text":"研發創新數據跟隱私權的保護"},{"start":6563.32,"end":6566.32,"text":"也是審查平台階段的重要"},{"start":6566.32,"end":6568.32,"text":"非價格競爭參數"},{"start":6568.32,"end":6569.32,"text":"是"},{"start":6569.32,"end":6571.32,"text":"那現在數位平台經濟裡面"},{"start":6571.32,"end":6572.32,"text":"這些演算法"},{"start":6572.32,"end":6575.32,"text":"這個外送員薪資補貼等等"},{"start":6575.32,"end":6576.32,"text":"數據資安"},{"start":6577.43,"end":6580.43,"text":"到底是公民會裡面的無關競爭"},{"start":6580.43,"end":6582.43,"text":"要排除的事項"},{"start":6582.43,"end":6584.43,"text":"還是他是一個核心的競爭參數"},{"start":6584.43,"end":6586.43,"text":"我想原則還是一樣"},{"start":6586.43,"end":6588.43,"text":"演算法或是其他這些非競爭的事項"},{"start":6588.43,"end":6591.43,"text":"如果他會創造出反競爭的效果"},{"start":6591.43,"end":6593.43,"text":"我們還是有空間可以進一步的了解"},{"start":6593.43,"end":6595.43,"text":"所以我想整個的重點還是在於"},{"start":6595.43,"end":6598.43,"text":"這些因素本身跟市場競爭的連結程度"},{"start":6598.43,"end":6599.43,"text":"到底有多高"},{"start":6600.58,"end":6602.58,"text":"所以你那麼多的參數"},{"start":6602.58,"end":6605.58,"text":"有核心跟這個無關競爭"},{"start":6605.58,"end":6606.58,"text":"要排除事項"},{"start":6606.58,"end":6608.58,"text":"這個有時候"},{"start":6608.93,"end":6610.93,"text":"太多的決策因子"},{"start":6610.93,"end":6612.93,"text":"太多決策參數"},{"start":6612.93,"end":6613.93,"text":"是沒錯"},{"start":6613.93,"end":6615.93,"text":"很難去監督你們到底決策是不是合理的"},{"start":6615.93,"end":6617.93,"text":"所以原則上我們還是以傳統競爭"},{"start":6617.93,"end":6619.93,"text":"譬如說價格品質產出"},{"start":6619.93,"end":6621.93,"text":"這些傳統的因素來判斷"},{"start":6621.93,"end":6623.93,"text":"那當然我們說隨著數位時代的來臨"},{"start":6623.93,"end":6625.93,"text":"有很多新的因素會進來"},{"start":6625.93,"end":6626.93,"text":"當然我們也不能夠置身於外"},{"start":6626.93,"end":6628.93,"text":"這些東西我們隨時都要注意"},{"start":6628.93,"end":6629.93,"text":"只是說這些東西"},{"start":6629.93,"end":6630.93,"text":"我們的注意的方法"},{"start":6630.93,"end":6632.93,"text":"提醒你們說"},{"start":6632.93,"end":6634.93,"text":"有那麼多參數在做你們決策的依據"},{"start":6634.93,"end":6636.93,"text":"那麼你們決策的這個"},{"start":6636.93,"end":6638.93,"text":"這個合理性"},{"start":6638.93,"end":6640.93,"text":"我們要怎麼去監督"},{"start":6640.93,"end":6642.93,"text":"最後你是叫委員會去做判斷嗎"},{"start":6642.93,"end":6644.93,"text":"我們委員會會有一些"},{"start":6644.93,"end":6646.93,"text":"包括蘇哈布包括勞動部"},{"start":6646.93,"end":6648.93,"text":"這個案子是提供資料給你們"},{"start":6648.93,"end":6650.93,"text":"提供委員會去做參考"},{"start":6650.93,"end":6652.93,"text":"最後定奪還是在"},{"start":6652.93,"end":6654.93,"text":"我也相信兩個部會"},{"start":6654.93,"end":6656.93,"text":"也不會說明確表態說"},{"start":6656.93,"end":6658.93,"text":"這個不適合"},{"start":6658.93,"end":6659.93,"text":"這可以"},{"start":6659.93,"end":6660.93,"text":"對不對"},{"start":6660.93,"end":6662.93,"text":"是把相關他們手上掌握的"},{"start":6662.93,"end":6664.93,"text":"給你們看嘛"},{"start":6664.55,"end":6666.55,"text":"我想委員會委員大概"},{"start":6666.55,"end":6668.55,"text":"我們大概知道有些"},{"start":6668.55,"end":6670.55,"text":"我也有點懷疑"},{"start":6669.55,"end":6671.55,"text":"縱使蘇哈布跟勞動部提供你們這些資料"},{"start":6671.55,"end":6673.55,"text":"委員是不是有專業能力"},{"start":6673.55,"end":6675.55,"text":"來判斷這些資料的"},{"start":6675.55,"end":6677.55,"text":"重要性對一個決策的重要性"},{"start":6679.05,"end":6681.05,"text":"我想大概就是集思廣益"},{"start":6681.05,"end":6683.05,"text":"大家充分討論"},{"start":6683.05,"end":6685.05,"text":"如果說真的還有哪個地方不明確"},{"start":6685.05,"end":6687.05,"text":"你們在未來要有這個"},{"start":6687.05,"end":6689.05,"text":"個案的這個"},{"start":6689.05,"end":6691.05,"text":"真的是個案的這個跨部會的委員"},{"start":6691.05,"end":6693.05,"text":"比如說這個案"},{"start":6693.05,"end":6695.05,"text":"跟這個蘇哈布跟勞動部相關"},{"start":6695.05,"end":6697.05,"text":"你們在未來審查會的時候"},{"start":6697.05,"end":6699.05,"text":"要請他們列席"},{"start":6699.75,"end":6701.75,"text":"因為列席的人員是有一些法定的規定"},{"start":6701.75,"end":6703.75,"text":"但是我們會在審議之前"},{"start":6703.75,"end":6705.75,"text":"我們會充分的去聆聽"},{"start":6705.75,"end":6707.75,"text":"各個部會對他們專業的一些意見"},{"start":6707.75,"end":6709.75,"text":"那我們也會在委員會審查過程當中"},{"start":6709.75,"end":6711.75,"text":"讓委員充分知道這些事情"},{"start":6711.75,"end":6713.75,"text":"然後再討論"},{"start":6713.75,"end":6715.75,"text":"第二個議題就是"},{"start":6715.75,"end":6717.75,"text":"負擔放行"},{"start":6717.75,"end":6719.75,"text":"目前這個相關的制度"},{"start":6719.75,"end":6721.75,"text":"目前這個相關的制度"},{"start":6721.75,"end":6723.75,"text":"目前這個相關的制度"},{"start":6723.75,"end":6725.75,"text":"目前這個相關的制度"},{"start":6725.75,"end":6727.75,"text":"目前這個相關的制度"},{"start":6723.41,"end":6725.41,"text":"好像是說你查得到"},{"start":6726.84,"end":6728.84,"text":"目前查不到"},{"start":6728.84,"end":6730.84,"text":"也沒辦法鎖住"},{"start":6730.84,"end":6732.84,"text":"然後罰不成"},{"start":6732.84,"end":6734.84,"text":"是三重的這個制度的困境"},{"start":6735.83,"end":6737.83,"text":"會讓你這個所謂的"},{"start":6737.99,"end":6739.99,"text":"負擔放行"},{"start":6739.99,"end":6741.99,"text":"這個做一個"},{"start":6741.99,"end":6743.99,"text":"管制手段"},{"start":6743.99,"end":6745.99,"text":"他是徒勞無功的"},{"start":6746.35,"end":6748.35,"text":"從法師面跟實際上所發生的這些保義效果"},{"start":6748.35,"end":6750.35,"text":"從法師面跟實際上所發生的這些保義效果"},{"start":6750.35,"end":6752.35,"text":"好像"},{"start":6750.89,"end":6752.89,"text":"這個你沒有這個"},{"start":6752.89,"end":6754.89,"text":"我跟你們報告這個到底"},{"start":6754.89,"end":6756.89,"text":"這個負承諾負擔"},{"start":6756.89,"end":6758.89,"text":"我們事後有沒有能力監督"},{"start":6758.89,"end":6760.89,"text":"其實這跟個案有高度的關係"},{"start":6760.89,"end":6762.89,"text":"有些案子我們負負擔監督是沒有問題"},{"start":6762.97,"end":6764.97,"text":"這個案子我想審查多數的審查委員是認為說"},{"start":6764.97,"end":6766.97,"text":"這個案子裡面業者提出來的負負擔"},{"start":6766.97,"end":6768.97,"text":"他們不認為說"},{"start":6768.97,"end":6770.97,"text":"這個是可以被監督了"},{"start":6770.97,"end":6772.97,"text":"或者說他們做得到"},{"start":6772.97,"end":6774.97,"text":"這個是有高度的個案性"},{"start":6774.97,"end":6776.97,"text":"我們也沒辦法說一竿子打翻所有的承諾負擔"},{"start":6776.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個經濟部或者是塑化部"},{"start":7001.76,"end":7003.76,"text":"你們覺得呢"},{"start":7004.39,"end":7006.39,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":7006.6,"end":7008.6,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":7008.6,"end":7010.6,"text":"其實在我們現在審查的過程"},{"start":7010.6,"end":7012.6,"text":"比如像Grab這個案子"},{"start":7012.6,"end":7014.6,"text":"我們確實有針對他"},{"start":7014.6,"end":7016.6,"text":"資料儲存的一些議題"},{"start":7016.6,"end":7018.6,"text":"有請投資人釐清過"},{"start":7018.6,"end":7020.6,"text":"那原本應該也會針對這個部分"},{"start":7020.6,"end":7022.6,"text":"再做進入到所謂"},{"start":7022.6,"end":7024.6,"text":"資料主權是經濟部"},{"start":7024.6,"end":7026.6,"text":"那所謂的雲端架構審查"},{"start":7026.6,"end":7028.6,"text":"這個是塑化部嗎"},{"start":7029.09,"end":7031.09,"text":"原則上我只要是外資審查"},{"start":7031.09,"end":7033.09,"text":"我們都會針對風險因素"},{"start":7033.09,"end":7035.09,"text":"請"},{"start":7035.09,"end":7037.09,"text":"可是你們有這方面的專業嗎"},{"start":7037.09,"end":7041.09,"text":"我們就是請相關的主管機關去協助審查"},{"start":7041.09,"end":7043.09,"text":"你們會請塑化部再表達意見"},{"start":7043.09,"end":7045.09,"text":"是"},{"start":7044.62,"end":7048.62,"text":"如果未來將這個關鍵數據伺服器落地台灣"},{"start":7048.62,"end":7050.62,"text":"或者禁止使用"},{"start":7050.62,"end":7052.62,"text":"據國安一律的雲端服務"},{"start":7052.62,"end":7054.62,"text":"把這兩項標準"},{"start":7054.32,"end":7056.32,"text":"作為一個準薄的附加條款"},{"start":7057.53,"end":7059.53,"text":"這個可不可信"},{"start":7059.59,"end":7061.59,"text":"這可不可信"},{"start":7061.22,"end":7063.22,"text":"其實這個已經有納入現代的審查"},{"start":7063.22,"end":7065.22,"text":"不過前提當然要是一個投資"},{"start":7065.22,"end":7067.22,"text":"已經有納入審查嗎"},{"start":7067.22,"end":7069.22,"text":"是是對我們在審查過程中會去考慮這些議題"},{"start":7069.22,"end":7071.22,"text":"那是投審師的審查嗎"},{"start":7071.22,"end":7073.22,"text":"是"},{"start":7073.22,"end":7075.22,"text":"有針對伺服器落地台灣"},{"start":7075.22,"end":7077.22,"text":"禁用國安一律的雲端服務"},{"start":7077.22,"end":7079.22,"text":"這兩項標準有在你們審查標準裡面有嗎"},{"start":7081.44,"end":7083.44,"text":"應該講說這個是"},{"start":7083.44,"end":7085.44,"text":"算到所謂的我們的各自保護"},{"start":7085.44,"end":7087.44,"text":"我覺得更明確一點"},{"start":7087.44,"end":7089.44,"text":"把這個更明確化"},{"start":7089.44,"end":7091.44,"text":"就我剛剛說的那樣"},{"start":7091.44,"end":7093.44,"text":"關鍵數據伺服器要落地台灣"},{"start":7093.44,"end":7095.44,"text":"另外就是說禁用"},{"start":7095.44,"end":7097.44,"text":"據國安一律雲端服務"},{"start":7097.3,"end":7099.3,"text":"這個標準立委你們審查的一個"},{"start":7100.71,"end":7102.71,"text":"一個依據"},{"start":7102.11,"end":7104.11,"text":"或者附加條款"},{"start":7103.76,"end":7105.76,"text":"這個能不能去評估一下"},{"start":7105.76,"end":7107.76,"text":"可以可以"},{"start":7107.76,"end":7109.76,"text":"謝謝市長"},{"start":7108.39,"end":7110.39,"text":"謝謝市委員謝謝市長還有市長"},{"start":7110.39,"end":7112.39,"text":"接下來請政政前委員諮詢"},{"start":7112.39,"end":7114.39,"text":"召委請"},{"start":7123.88,"end":7127.88,"text":"謝謝主席我想請一下我們公評會的代理主委"},{"start":7129.68,"end":7130.31,"text":"請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請請"},{"start":7135.84,"end":7136.4800000000005,"text":"各位早"},{"start":7137.4800000000005,"end":7138.32,"text":"各位早"},{"start":7138.84,"end":7144.4400000000005,"text":"謝謝主席今天特別安排公平會就跨境事業並購案之結合審查機制"},{"start":7144.64,"end":7146.88,"text":"是否納入複雜股權結構"},{"start":7147.08,"end":7150.52,"text":"勞動權益與資安風險等考量的一個專報"},{"start":7151.12,"end":7156.84,"text":"那其實每次我們只要碰到了就是交易平台的一個並購案"},{"start":7156.84,"end":7159.52,"text":"都會引起非常非常大的一個社會關注"},{"start":7159.74,"end":7163.52,"text":"最主要是現在的消費行為跟整個"},{"start":7163.76,"end":7168.200000000001,"text":"那個外送平台關係都非常非常的緊密"},{"start":7168.56,"end":7172.72,"text":"那我想說從之前包括"},{"start":7172.8,"end":7177,"text":"Uber曾經要用9.5美元並購FUPENDA"},{"start":7177,"end":7179,"text":"那次就引起很多的關注"},{"start":7179.42,"end":7183.660000000001,"text":"那一次其實公平會也很清楚的給了一個禁止的一個答案"},{"start":7183.900000000001,"end":7186.900000000001,"text":"那昨天其實公平會也非常的有效率"},{"start":7186.900000000001,"end":7189.620000000001,"text":"在我們今天的一個專報之前的時候"},{"start":7189.700000000001,"end":7193.22,"text":"也直接宣布了禁止GRAB"},{"start":7193.62,"end":7196.22,"text":"來並購FUPENDA這樣的一個案子"},{"start":7196.62,"end":7199.02,"text":"那因為這段時間以來其實我們看到了"},{"start":7199.02,"end":7201.22,"text":"就是支持的其實蠻多的"},{"start":7201.22,"end":7203.02,"text":"反對的其實也蠻多的"},{"start":7203.26,"end":7207.16,"text":"然後尤其碰到這個Deadline的時候呢"},{"start":7207.16,"end":7209.52,"text":"就是打得越來越兇"},{"start":7209.66,"end":7213.96,"text":"那我甚至於從媒體上面看到了一個這樣子的一個指控"},{"start":7214.360000000001,"end":7216.06,"text":"它標題就直接寫著說"},{"start":7216.360000000001,"end":7218.400000000001,"text":"這個交易如果破局了"},{"start":7218.72,"end":7220.5,"text":"誰等著低價要接手"},{"start":7221.04,"end":7224.3,"text":"感覺上好像是在營造一個狀態"},{"start":7224.3,"end":7226.1,"text":"就是公平會如果說"},{"start":7226.7,"end":7229.7,"text":"沒有站在這個媒體的一個特定立場的時候呢"},{"start":7229.84,"end":7233.7,"text":"感覺公平會就變成了一個特定方的一個打手"},{"start":7233.8,"end":7237.1,"text":"好像是要讓下面一個接手的人"},{"start":7237.28,"end":7239.4,"text":"得到了公平會的一個按住"},{"start":7239.6,"end":7242.34,"text":"那我在想說公平會在做這樣的決策的時候"},{"start":7242.34,"end":7244,"text":"肯定是有公平會的一個"},{"start":7244.6,"end":7245.68,"text":"決策的過程"},{"start":7245.88,"end":7249.7,"text":"那你們昨天的新聞資料也很清楚的寫到說"},{"start":7249.94,"end":7251.54,"text":"因為股權的一個問題"},{"start":7251.639999999999,"end":7253.54,"text":"那減少積極競爭的一個誘因"},{"start":7253.54,"end":7255.84,"text":"是你們這次做最主要的一個考量"},{"start":7256.139999999999,"end":7258.639999999999,"text":"那針對這樣的一個媒體的指控認為說"},{"start":7258.94,"end":7263.099999999999,"text":"公平會如果給了一個否定的一個禁止"},{"start":7263.099999999999,"end":7266.04,"text":"歸回來併購那個FUPENTA的時候"},{"start":7266.139999999999,"end":7268.139999999999,"text":"可能要讓下面的"},{"start":7268.71,"end":7271.31,"text":"一手可能會更便宜去接手"},{"start":7271.31,"end":7274.51,"text":"感覺好像變成指控起來感覺很像案子"},{"start":7274.51,"end":7276.67,"text":"公平會變成一個特定方的打手"},{"start":7276.67,"end":7280.31,"text":"針對這部分可不可以請代理主委做一個清楚的一個回應"},{"start":7280.41,"end":7281.91,"text":"我想我簡單的講就是說"},{"start":7282.01,"end":7284.51,"text":"不管是說這個案子如果破局"},{"start":7284.51,"end":7285.91,"text":"後面誰會來接手"},{"start":7285.91,"end":7287.91,"text":"或者稍早之前也有人提出來說"},{"start":7288.57,"end":7290.91,"text":"適合詬病的名單清單等等"},{"start":7291.17,"end":7293.31,"text":"這些都不在我們的考量範圍之內"},{"start":7293.81,"end":7295.41,"text":"我們會注意到有這樣的事實"},{"start":7295.41,"end":7298.01,"text":"但是這個跟我們競爭分析是沒有關係的"},{"start":7298.25,"end":7301.650000000001,"text":"因為這畢竟是系屬於未來的一些產業結構的改變"},{"start":7302.05,"end":7303.35,"text":"那我們昨天在"},{"start":7303.75,"end":7306.75,"text":"我們在討論過程當中其實也很清楚的考慮到就是說"},{"start":7307.01,"end":7310.35,"text":"我們當然就是依照現有的當事人申報的資料"},{"start":7310.35,"end":7313.85,"text":"還有我們透過各種管道收集到的市場跟產業資訊"},{"start":7314.05,"end":7315.85,"text":"既有的證據底下去做判斷"},{"start":7316.150000000001,"end":7320.25,"text":"至於未來這個市場產業會發展誰會來接誰怎麼樣"},{"start":7320.41,"end":7322.75,"text":"這個我們在現階段我們不會去考慮"},{"start":7323.75,"end":7326.31,"text":"所以我想說因為這個外送平台併購"},{"start":7326.31,"end":7328.55,"text":"確實影響消費者很大的一個部分"},{"start":7329.150000000001,"end":7331.450000000001,"text":"那因為你提到一個狀態就是說"},{"start":7331.910000000001,"end":7333.650000000001,"text":"因為這次會禁止併購"},{"start":7333.650000000001,"end":7335.25,"text":"最主要是因為可能會減少"},{"start":7336.01,"end":7337.450000000001,"text":"積極競爭的一個誘因"},{"start":7337.75,"end":7340.410000000001,"text":"那我在想說積極競爭其實很大一個部分"},{"start":7340.410000000001,"end":7341.610000000001,"text":"其實就是希望說"},{"start":7342.75,"end":7345.51,"text":"就是外送的市場其實能夠"},{"start":7346.110000000001,"end":7347.05,"text":"更為有效競爭"},{"start":7347.05,"end":7348.35,"text":"然後依照那個"},{"start":7348.55,"end":7350.410000000001,"text":"依靠這個外送平台生活"},{"start":7350.610000000001,"end":7352.910000000001,"text":"營業的民眾跟消費者"},{"start":7353.05,"end":7354.910000000001,"text":"其實都能夠得到很好的一個保障"},{"start":7355.15,"end":7356.51,"text":"所以針對這個部分"},{"start":7356.51,"end":7360.25,"text":"我想請教一下我們這一次在做這樣子的一個"},{"start":7360.45,"end":7361.95,"text":"準駁的過程當中"},{"start":7362.11,"end":7365.25,"text":"是否有特別去考量到外送員"},{"start":7365.45,"end":7367.849999999999,"text":"他們的一個工作機會的保障"},{"start":7368.01,"end":7370.61,"text":"跟店家的抽成費用"},{"start":7370.91,"end":7372.91,"text":"各種的成本會不會更重"},{"start":7373.07,"end":7375.11,"text":"還有消費者他們的優惠"},{"start":7375.11,"end":7376.65,"text":"是不是會得到更多的保障"},{"start":7376.7699999999995,"end":7378.55,"text":"我們是不是有從這個角度"},{"start":7378.67,"end":7381.05,"text":"來做一個很清楚的一個考量"},{"start":7382.3,"end":7383.6,"text":"我想是這樣跟各位報告"},{"start":7383.6,"end":7385.56,"text":"就是外送員跟店家的部分"},{"start":7385.56,"end":7387.56,"text":"譬如說外送員的工作機會收入"},{"start":7387.7,"end":7390.2,"text":"這個基本上我們已經有專法在規範"},{"start":7390.2,"end":7391.8,"text":"所以這個大概就是有專法的"},{"start":7391.8,"end":7393.3,"text":"目的事業助燃機關來處理"},{"start":7393.6,"end":7395.24,"text":"店家的部分當然這也是有"},{"start":7395.84,"end":7397.400000000001,"text":"目的事業助燃機關經濟部"},{"start":7397.400000000001,"end":7398.54,"text":"他們來處理這個問題"},{"start":7398.54,"end":7402.1,"text":"所以外送員跟店家的權益的受損這一塊"},{"start":7402.2,"end":7404.74,"text":"基本上我們是比較沒有去考慮到這個問題"},{"start":7404.8,"end":7405.64,"text":"消費者的部分"},{"start":7405.64,"end":7408.4400000000005,"text":"其實我們當然整個公平法第一條規定的很清楚"},{"start":7408.4400000000005,"end":7409.74,"text":"我們公平法實施的目的"},{"start":7409.74,"end":7411.24,"text":"是要促進消費者的利益"},{"start":7411.38,"end":7412.98,"text":"所以但是這個促進消費者的利益"},{"start":7412.98,"end":7414.639999999999,"text":"是建立在競爭的"},{"start":7416.23,"end":7418.83,"text":"所以我們還是聚焦在這個節而案本身"},{"start":7418.83,"end":7419.929999999999,"text":"對競爭的影響"},{"start":7420.23,"end":7422.83,"text":"那間接的就是說假設這個節而案對競爭有利"},{"start":7422.83,"end":7425.23,"text":"我們相信間接的它會實現消費者的利益"},{"start":7425.53,"end":7426.429999999999,"text":"但是反過來講"},{"start":7426.429999999999,"end":7428.73,"text":"如果這個節而會讓市場競爭削弱"},{"start":7428.83,"end":7430.73,"text":"那消費者當然間接的也會受害"},{"start":7430.929999999999,"end":7433.33,"text":"所以我們大概是這樣的架構底下去探討這個"},{"start":7433.429999999999,"end":7435.53,"text":"委員關切的這個三個問題"},{"start":7435.73,"end":7437.53,"text":"ok 那我在想說"},{"start":7437.53,"end":7439.73,"text":"其實基本上本席跟您剛剛講的狀態"},{"start":7439.73,"end":7441.429999999999,"text":"其實有一個很清楚的共識就是說"},{"start":7441.53,"end":7443.629999999999,"text":"我們在做這個部分當中的時候呢"},{"start":7443.63,"end":7444.83,"text":"除了對於併購案之後"},{"start":7444.83,"end":7447.33,"text":"對於整個市場當中的一個競爭關係"},{"start":7447.33,"end":7450.43,"text":"是不是能夠維持一個很有效的一個競爭的狀態"},{"start":7450.53,"end":7452.7300000000005,"text":"對外送員不能維持合理的一個收入"},{"start":7452.7300000000005,"end":7454.83,"text":"店家會不會被提高抽成"},{"start":7454.93,"end":7457.2300000000005,"text":"消費者能不能享有充分的競爭"},{"start":7457.2300000000005,"end":7459.33,"text":"所帶來的一個合理的價根服務"},{"start":7459.33,"end":7461.13,"text":"其實是重要的一部分"},{"start":7461.13,"end":7463.13,"text":"那其中有關外送員跟店家的部分"},{"start":7463.13,"end":7464.03,"text":"你都有提到說"},{"start":7464.03,"end":7465.53,"text":"因為我們已經有專法"},{"start":7465.93,"end":7467.63,"text":"跟其他的部會在"},{"start":7468.2300000000005,"end":7469.43,"text":"針對這部分的管制"},{"start":7469.43,"end":7472.03,"text":"所以我接下來其實想要特別提到的是"},{"start":7472.13,"end":7476.429999999999,"text":"因為外送員的權益保障及外送平台管理法"},{"start":7476.429999999999,"end":7479.53,"text":"其實在今年7月21號正式的一個實施"},{"start":7480.03,"end":7481.73,"text":"所以我們講的外送專法"},{"start":7482.13,"end":7484.23,"text":"那麼針對這個部分的時候"},{"start":7484.23,"end":7487.53,"text":"其實我要特別來請教"},{"start":7487.53,"end":7489.03,"text":"包括我們經濟部"},{"start":7489.429999999999,"end":7490.53,"text":"然後其他"},{"start":7492.280000000001,"end":7493.18,"text":"勞動部"},{"start":7493.88,"end":7494.68,"text":"然後"},{"start":7495.08,"end":7495.88,"text":"速發部"},{"start":7496.68,"end":7498.88,"text":"跟交通部我們代表其實一起來"},{"start":7501.91,"end":7503.51,"text":"請各部會的代表"},{"start":7505.02,"end":7506.52,"text":"因為這個問題的時候"},{"start":7506.52,"end":7508.72,"text":"因為外送專法"},{"start":7509.12,"end":7510.22,"text":"出來之後的時候"},{"start":7510.22,"end":7511.22,"text":"其實我們很清楚"},{"start":7511.22,"end":7513.42,"text":"其實是希望能夠保障消費者"},{"start":7513.62,"end":7515.32,"text":"對外送員也有保障"},{"start":7515.42,"end":7516.72,"text":"各方面的一個情況"},{"start":7516.92,"end":7519.22,"text":"可是其實我們就看到了一個"},{"start":7519.42,"end":7521.02,"text":"在外送專法當中的時候"},{"start":7521.02,"end":7523.02,"text":"其實有兩個很主要的一個狀態"},{"start":7523.02,"end":7525.42,"text":"就是每單最低報酬的一個保障"},{"start":7525.62,"end":7526.92,"text":"這是一個很重要的原則"},{"start":7527.12,"end":7529.62,"text":"然後第二個就是單單計價的一個問題"},{"start":7530.22,"end":7531.42,"text":"那針對這個部分"},{"start":7531.42,"end":7533.72,"text":"因為專法上路三個月了"},{"start":7534.22,"end":7534.72,"text":"那"},{"start":7535.22,"end":7536.52,"text":"疊單的爭議的時候"},{"start":7536.52,"end":7538.42,"text":"勞動部這邊也有很清楚講到說"},{"start":7538.42,"end":7541.12,"text":"我們其實會用單單來計價這個問題"},{"start":7541.12,"end":7542.42,"text":"來解決它"},{"start":7542.92,"end":7544.22,"text":"那針對這個部分"},{"start":7544.22,"end":7546.22,"text":"其實我們就來看一個情況"},{"start":7546.22,"end":7547.02,"text":"因為這個"},{"start":7547.96,"end":7549.36,"text":"外送專法之後"},{"start":7549.36,"end":7552.5599999999995,"text":"它保障了外送平台的每單的基本權利"},{"start":7552.96,"end":7554.96,"text":"那也增加了平台的一個負擔"},{"start":7555.5599999999995,"end":7557.759999999999,"text":"那因為我們看到了一個數字"},{"start":7557.759999999999,"end":7559.86,"text":"包括副噴打者有講到說"},{"start":7560.0599999999995,"end":7562.0599999999995,"text":"我們這專法上來之後的時候呢"},{"start":7562.36,"end":7564.5599999999995,"text":"那麼整個平台的成本"},{"start":7564.96,"end":7566.259999999999,"text":"漲價32%"},{"start":7566.46,"end":7568.0599999999995,"text":"成本提高32%"},{"start":7568.5599999999995,"end":7571.0599999999995,"text":"那當然外送員的每單的成本"},{"start":7571.36,"end":7573.259999999999,"text":"的收入也提高38%"},{"start":7573.66,"end":7574.36,"text":"都有一些"},{"start":7575.0599999999995,"end":7576.0599999999995,"text":"提高的情況"},{"start":7576.26,"end":7577.160000000001,"text":"那結果會變什麼"},{"start":7577.160000000001,"end":7578.56,"text":"變消費者來買單"},{"start":7578.96,"end":7580.360000000001,"text":"會變成消費者來買單"},{"start":7580.56,"end":7581.46,"text":"所以我想要"},{"start":7582.06,"end":7583.660000000001,"text":"請教一下就是說"},{"start":7584.46,"end":7585.860000000001,"text":"我們目前的情況"},{"start":7586.83,"end":7588.629999999999,"text":"勞動部在管勞權"},{"start":7589.53,"end":7592.429999999999,"text":"那交通部在管運價的一個核定"},{"start":7592.83,"end":7595.03,"text":"那經濟部在管商家的一個權益"},{"start":7595.23,"end":7596.83,"text":"那書發部在管那個"},{"start":7597.33,"end":7598.53,"text":"線上的一個平台"},{"start":7598.83,"end":7601.03,"text":"所以對於這樣子的一個我們"},{"start":7602.129999999999,"end":7603.129999999999,"text":"外送專法"},{"start":7603.53,"end":7606.23,"text":"就是推動來之後的時候"},{"start":7606.629999999999,"end":7607.73,"text":"那消費者的"},{"start":7609.120000000001,"end":7611.42,"text":"必須要承擔更多的一個成本"},{"start":7611.42,"end":7613.52,"text":"可是目前已經看到這樣的一個情況"},{"start":7613.820000000001,"end":7617.42,"text":"那雖然說外送員他們每一單的"},{"start":7618.030000000001,"end":7619.030000000001,"text":"收入提高"},{"start":7619.2300000000005,"end":7622.2300000000005,"text":"可是他們等單的時間也提高43%"},{"start":7622.93,"end":7624.43,"text":"那所以說這個部分的時候"},{"start":7624.63,"end":7625.93,"text":"本來想要請教就是說"},{"start":7626.13,"end":7629.13,"text":"我們接下來在做這樣子的一個"},{"start":7631.02,"end":7632.92,"text":"是不是會有針對"},{"start":7633.93,"end":7635.13,"text":"這麼多的單位"},{"start":7635.75,"end":7638.15,"text":"針對外送這個產業的時候"},{"start":7638.549999999999,"end":7641.65,"text":"會成立一個外送產業運價與抽成"},{"start":7642.45,"end":7644.25,"text":"聯動的一個審議機制"},{"start":7644.549999999999,"end":7646.349999999999,"text":"是不是可能會有這個情況"},{"start":7646.549999999999,"end":7649.049999999999,"text":"能夠把剛剛我們講的這些問題"},{"start":7649.049999999999,"end":7649.65,"text":"包括"},{"start":7650.049999999999,"end":7650.75,"text":"經濟部"},{"start":7651.45,"end":7652.849999999999,"text":"跟勞動部"},{"start":7653.75,"end":7656.15,"text":"跟那個我們書發部"},{"start":7656.849999999999,"end":7658.549999999999,"text":"還有就是"},{"start":7659.049999999999,"end":7660.45,"text":"交通部這個部分"},{"start":7660.849999999999,"end":7664.849999999999,"text":"針對核定美單的基本運價跟疊單報酬的時候"},{"start":7664.950000000001,"end":7667.25,"text":"能夠強制消費者接受調查"},{"start":7667.35,"end":7669.35,"text":"跟合作餐廳的最高的上限"},{"start":7669.450000000001,"end":7670.950000000001,"text":"同時納入這個"},{"start":7671.450000000001,"end":7672.450000000001,"text":"法規的當中"},{"start":7672.450000000001,"end":7674.55,"text":"我為什麼會提到這個狀態是因為"},{"start":7674.650000000001,"end":7676.35,"text":"在美國很多的城市"},{"start":7676.450000000001,"end":7679.55,"text":"他們對於商家要負擔的"},{"start":7679.75,"end":7681.05,"text":"就是外送成本"},{"start":7681.25,"end":7682.950000000001,"text":"有限制的15%"},{"start":7682.950000000001,"end":7685.35,"text":"我們目前台灣是沒有完全市場機制"},{"start":7685.450000000001,"end":7687.35,"text":"所以目前商家他們負擔的成本"},{"start":7687.35,"end":7689.150000000001,"text":"可能高達35%"},{"start":7689.150000000001,"end":7690.450000000001,"text":"是非常的高"},{"start":7690.75,"end":7691.85,"text":"非常的高"},{"start":7692.05,"end":7692.75,"text":"那所以說"},{"start":7692.85,"end":7694.650000000001,"text":"針對這樣子的一個"},{"start":7694.85,"end":7695.650000000001,"text":"外送"},{"start":7696.05,"end":7698.25,"text":"專法出來之後的時候"},{"start":7698.25,"end":7699.55,"text":"我們對於"},{"start":7699.650000000001,"end":7702.05,"text":"整個的相關那個收費的狀態"},{"start":7702.05,"end":7703.85,"text":"是不是能夠有一個很清楚的"},{"start":7703.85,"end":7705.35,"text":"跨部會的一個機制"},{"start":7705.35,"end":7706.85,"text":"來做這樣的一個審理"},{"start":7707.65,"end":7708.95,"text":"可不可以請經濟部這邊"},{"start":7708.95,"end":7710.349999999999,"text":"做一個簡單的一個回應"},{"start":7712.1,"end":7713.700000000001,"text":"各位委員抱歉我們今天"},{"start":7713.700000000001,"end":7715.6,"text":"今天是投審是代表"},{"start":7715.6,"end":7717.900000000001,"text":"不過這個部分我們會配合"},{"start":7718.3,"end":7720.6,"text":"整個法規的檢討來提供意見"},{"start":7722.28,"end":7722.78,"text":"OK"},{"start":7723.29,"end":7723.99,"text":"來跟委員說明"},{"start":7723.99,"end":7726.089999999999,"text":"那個在外送專法裡面"},{"start":7726.19,"end":7727.29,"text":"有關這一個"},{"start":7727.889999999999,"end":7729.389999999999,"text":"商家的這個就"},{"start":7729.79,"end":7732.49,"text":"平台對商家的這個比例"},{"start":7732.79,"end":7734.089999999999,"text":"他事實上經濟部就我們"},{"start":7734.089999999999,"end":7734.889999999999,"text":"老公不瞭解"},{"start":7734.889999999999,"end":7736.49,"text":"經濟部已經有訂了一個"},{"start":7736.69,"end":7738.589999999999,"text":"合作契約的範本"},{"start":7739.11,"end":7741.009999999999,"text":"那提供給這個平台"},{"start":7741.009999999999,"end":7743.41,"text":"還有商家來做參考的規範"},{"start":7745.700000000001,"end":7747.200000000001,"text":"所以這部分可不可以請商發署"},{"start":7747.200000000001,"end":7749.200000000001,"text":"稍微回應一下這個部分"},{"start":7749.3,"end":7750,"text":"商發署"},{"start":7752.49,"end":7752.99,"text":"嗯"},{"start":7753.25,"end":7755.75,"text":"商發署是主管的一個機關"},{"start":7758.48,"end":7759.58,"text":"委員抱歉這部分"},{"start":7759.58,"end":7762.179999999999,"text":"因為不是我這邊所列管的部分"},{"start":7762.179999999999,"end":7763.379999999999,"text":"所以是不是容我們"},{"start":7763.58,"end":7765.08,"text":"會後再補充給委員這邊"},{"start":7765.08,"end":7765.679999999999,"text":"OK好"},{"start":7766.780000000001,"end":7768.780000000001,"text":"OK那我想最後的部分"},{"start":7769.08,"end":7770.58,"text":"我另外再問一個狀態"},{"start":7770.58,"end":7772.280000000001,"text":"就是KIA的問題"},{"start":7772.88,"end":7773.780000000001,"text":"KIA的問題的時候"},{"start":7773.780000000001,"end":7775.18,"text":"這是公評會這邊"},{"start":7775.18,"end":7777.88,"text":"其實剛也有委員他們也提到這個部分"},{"start":7777.9800000000005,"end":7778.88,"text":"就是我們"},{"start":7779.88,"end":7782.18,"text":"針對那個KIA的這部分"},{"start":7782.18,"end":7783.38,"text":"我們罰了兩百萬"},{"start":7783.68,"end":7784.18,"text":"是"},{"start":7784.18,"end":7785.58,"text":"對 罰兩百萬這部分的時候"},{"start":7785.58,"end":7786.38,"text":"我在想說"},{"start":7786.38,"end":7787.9800000000005,"text":"因為對於"},{"start":7789.68,"end":7791.38,"text":"公評會在做這個部分的時候"},{"start":7791.38,"end":7793.28,"text":"那我們想到一個直接的問題"},{"start":7793.28,"end":7795.48,"text":"是一個消費者權益的問題"},{"start":7795.68,"end":7798.28,"text":"那行政院消保處這邊的時候"},{"start":7798.78,"end":7801.38,"text":"如果說碰到了很多的一個民眾"},{"start":7801.38,"end":7803.68,"text":"他拿整個公評會這邊的一個"},{"start":7804.68,"end":7805.98,"text":"裁決出來的時候"},{"start":7806.28,"end":7809.18,"text":"那消費者是不是可以用你們這樣子的一個"},{"start":7810.46,"end":7812.96,"text":"然後來保"},{"start":7813.63,"end":7816.13,"text":"來針對消保法跟民法的部分"},{"start":7816.13,"end":7818.03,"text":"針對KIA來提起求償"},{"start":7818.03,"end":7819.53,"text":"我想我們做出的處分"},{"start":7819.53,"end":7821.73,"text":"當然是他在訴訟上可以運用的一個"},{"start":7821.73,"end":7822.929999999999,"text":"一個佐證資料"},{"start":7822.929999999999,"end":7825.33,"text":"這個應該是一個消費者可以拿來做為"},{"start":7825.33,"end":7827.929999999999,"text":"提起後續損害賠償訴訟的一個依據"},{"start":7828.13,"end":7828.63,"text":"OK"},{"start":7828.73,"end":7830.13,"text":"所以像這部分的時候"},{"start":7830.13,"end":7830.73,"text":"我在想說"},{"start":7830.73,"end":7832.83,"text":"因為我們公評會竟然做了這樣的裁決"},{"start":7832.929999999999,"end":7834.13,"text":"如果能夠的時候"},{"start":7834.13,"end":7836.13,"text":"我其實因為在這一次的那個"},{"start":7837.429999999999,"end":7838.13,"text":"整個"},{"start":7839.16,"end":7840.66,"text":"裁罰公告裡面的時候"},{"start":7840.66,"end":7841.96,"text":"如果能夠的時候"},{"start":7841.96,"end":7843.36,"text":"我們本席是希望說"},{"start":7843.36,"end":7845.36,"text":"能夠也把消費者權益的部分"},{"start":7845.36,"end":7848.36,"text":"他們是不是能夠去做這樣的消費權益的保障"},{"start":7848.36,"end":7849.66,"text":"時候也能夠帶到"},{"start":7849.66,"end":7851.86,"text":"那我覺得這樣子其實可能是對於公評會"},{"start":7851.86,"end":7852.46,"text":"對於"},{"start":7852.86,"end":7853.96,"text":"這樣的一個裁決之後"},{"start":7853.96,"end":7855.36,"text":"對消費者的一個保障"},{"start":7855.46,"end":7857.46,"text":"也能夠提起更正面的一個"},{"start":7857.46,"end":7859.0599999999995,"text":"事實上在我們的處分書當中"},{"start":7859.0599999999995,"end":7860.76,"text":"我們都會去描述說"},{"start":7860.76,"end":7863.5599999999995,"text":"這個行為到底對市場跟消費者的利益的保護"},{"start":7863.5599999999995,"end":7864.76,"text":"會有什麼樣的影響"},{"start":7864.76,"end":7865.26,"text":"所以這一點"},{"start":7865.26,"end":7867.76,"text":"我們其實都有在處分書裡面做說明"},{"start":7867.860000000001,"end":7871.26,"text":"ok 那如果說現在比方說Kia他們提出一個"},{"start":7871.26,"end":7873.46,"text":"就是一個安心的一個方案的時候"},{"start":7873.56,"end":7873.96,"text":"然後"},{"start":7874.68,"end":7875.98,"text":"提出來之後的時候"},{"start":7875.98,"end":7877.98,"text":"消費者還是還能不能繼續"},{"start":7878.28,"end":7878.98,"text":"針對"},{"start":7879.08,"end":7881.48,"text":"就是公評會的一個裁決的時候"},{"start":7881.48,"end":7883.38,"text":"再提起一個消費者的一個訴訟"},{"start":7883.78,"end":7884.78,"text":"消費權益的訴訟"},{"start":7884.78,"end":7886.58,"text":"我們處分是一個行政上的處分"},{"start":7886.58,"end":7888.88,"text":"那後續消費者要提起損害賠償"},{"start":7888.88,"end":7890.48,"text":"那是一個民事訴訟的問題"},{"start":7890.68,"end":7892.18,"text":"所以兩者之間並不衝突"},{"start":7892.38,"end":7893.48,"text":"ok 好 謝謝"},{"start":7895.2300000000005,"end":7896.93,"text":"好 謝謝鄭昭偉"},{"start":7897.43,"end":7899.03,"text":"謝謝主委 各官員"},{"start":7899.03,"end":7901.03,"text":"接下來請陳昭明委員諮詢"},{"start":7914.5,"end":7918.3,"text":"首先邀請我們公評會的陳主委"},{"start":7918.4,"end":7919.5,"text":"好 邀請陳主委"},{"start":7925.34,"end":7926.04,"text":"好 我先走"},{"start":7926.870000000001,"end":7928.570000000001,"text":"那個陳主委"},{"start":7928.570000000001,"end":7930.17,"text":"好 我請教一下"},{"start":7930.94,"end":7934.94,"text":"Panda是台灣的公司還是國外的公司"},{"start":7935.9,"end":7937.7,"text":"他的母公司是國外的公司"},{"start":7938,"end":7938.299999999999,"text":"蛤"},{"start":7938.299999999999,"end":7939.9,"text":"他的母公司是國外的公司"},{"start":7939.9,"end":7942.4,"text":"母公司是國外的公司"},{"start":7942.4,"end":7944.799999999999,"text":"還有台灣的出本多少"},{"start":7945.66,"end":7946.5599999999995,"text":"台灣的出本"},{"start":7947.33,"end":7949.63,"text":"看有沒有台灣人在投訴的"},{"start":7950.55,"end":7952.25,"text":"他的持股是百分之百持股"},{"start":7952.349999999999,"end":7954.75,"text":"百分之百 都是外國公司"},{"start":7955.349999999999,"end":7957.25,"text":"那我現在想到一個問題"},{"start":7958.43,"end":7962.63,"text":"當Uber要變購Panda的時候"},{"start":7962.83,"end":7964.7300000000005,"text":"是決定5億美金"},{"start":7965.4,"end":7969.5,"text":"現在換成Grab要來變過Future Panda"},{"start":7969.5,"end":7971,"text":"變成6億美金"},{"start":7971.4,"end":7973.599999999999,"text":"這個價格節節下降"},{"start":7973.9,"end":7976.9,"text":"當然是國外公司我就比較不介意"},{"start":7977.5,"end":7981.1,"text":"但是裡面用的是台灣員工的保障權利"},{"start":7981.8,"end":7984.2,"text":"如果以你公平為主樣的做"},{"start":7985.15,"end":7988.45,"text":"我不曉得外國公司會怎麼樣做"},{"start":7988.75,"end":7990.95,"text":"但是員工是台灣的員工"},{"start":7991.45,"end":7992.75,"text":"所以你們這麼做"},{"start":7992.75,"end":7994.45,"text":"我就覺得莫名其妙"},{"start":7997.36,"end":7998.5599999999995,"text":"我要吹出個音"},{"start":7999.25,"end":8002.75,"text":"當然Uber在變購Future Panda的時候"},{"start":8002.75,"end":8005.15,"text":"確確實實會變成壟斷"},{"start":8005.45,"end":8007.05,"text":"所以我們當時反對"},{"start":8007.96,"end":8010.86,"text":"那今天我看到很多的委員在此行"},{"start":8011.34,"end":8014.84,"text":"那今天變購Future 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省力一下"},{"start":8273.050000000001,"end":8273.85,"text":"我根本沒有做"},{"start":8273.85,"end":8274.95,"text":"就是說"},{"start":8274.95,"end":8276.050000000001,"text":"到底誰來接這個"},{"start":8276.050000000001,"end":8276.75,"text":"沒有沒有"},{"start":8276.75,"end":8277.85,"text":"我是舉例"},{"start":8277.85,"end":8278.95,"text":"我不是叫你接"},{"start":8278.95,"end":8279.65,"text":"我不敢"},{"start":8279.65,"end":8281.75,"text":"我沒有那麼大的權力"},{"start":8281.75,"end":8283.050000000001,"text":"現在想這種話"},{"start":8283.050000000001,"end":8284.65,"text":"隨時都會被抓"},{"start":8285.62,"end":8287.02,"text":"我們在考慮過程當中"},{"start":8287.02,"end":8288.02,"text":"純粹就是依法考慮"},{"start":8288.02,"end":8288.720000000001,"text":"我是在講"},{"start":8289.31,"end":8291.31,"text":"你們今天所有環保道理"},{"start":8292.1,"end":8293.7,"text":"要知道不合法"},{"start":8294.7,"end":8295.900000000001,"text":"小題炸中"},{"start":8297.09,"end":8298.89,"text":"哈 你要引進了外資"},{"start":8299.61,"end":8300.61,"text":"東南亞國家"},{"start":8300.61,"end":8303.310000000001,"text":"你就把它全部當為中資"},{"start":8303.310000000001,"end":8305.61,"text":"只有日本的不是中資"},{"start":8305.61,"end":8307.310000000001,"text":"只有美國的"},{"start":8307.310000000001,"end":8309.210000000001,"text":"跟歐洲的才進來"},{"start":8309.97,"end":8311.97,"text":"你這個政府已經完成了"},{"start":8312.7,"end":8314.2,"text":"我跟委員報告公評會的審查"},{"start":8314.2,"end":8315.2,"text":"我沒有審查到"},{"start":8315.2,"end":8316.900000000001,"text":"資安跟中資的問題"},{"start":8316.900000000001,"end":8319.400000000001,"text":"沒有 裡面有談到資安嘛"},{"start":8319.400000000001,"end":8320.2,"text":"因為我談到"},{"start":8320.2,"end":8321.800000000001,"text":"第三頁那個司法部"},{"start":8321.800000000001,"end":8322.7,"text":"你們的報告"},{"start":8322.7,"end":8323.800000000001,"text":"第三頁 第四頁"},{"start":8323.800000000001,"end":8324.7,"text":"你看一下"},{"start":8324.7,"end":8325.5,"text":"資安什麼"},{"start":8325.5,"end":8326.7,"text":"這個不過我們管的"},{"start":8326.7,"end":8328.400000000001,"text":"是司法部管的"},{"start":8328.400000000001,"end":8329.900000000001,"text":"等一下要說有問題"},{"start":8329.900000000001,"end":8331.5,"text":"等一下要說沒有"},{"start":8331.5,"end":8332.7,"text":"第三頁 第四頁"},{"start":8332.7,"end":8333.900000000001,"text":"你看一下"},{"start":8333.900000000001,"end":8335.900000000001,"text":"我今天看到這篇文章"},{"start":8335.900000000001,"end":8337,"text":"奇怪"},{"start":8337,"end":8339.300000000001,"text":"等一下又國安又資安"},{"start":8339.92,"end":8341.92,"text":"哈 覺得Uber傳送公司"},{"start":8341.92,"end":8343.12,"text":"有那麼偽詐嗎"},{"start":8343.82,"end":8346.119999999999,"text":"總統府也不會去買那個啦"},{"start":8347.4,"end":8350,"text":"那個外送平台"},{"start":8350.67,"end":8353.07,"text":"選政院長也不願意買外送平台來"},{"start":8353.07,"end":8354.47,"text":"你以為這有可能啊"},{"start":8355.19,"end":8356.49,"text":"他們有時候保護嘛"},{"start":8360.02,"end":8362.82,"text":"如果人家外資要來投資的話"},{"start":8363.51,"end":8365.91,"text":"83種開放的心理不對"},{"start":8365.91,"end":8367.11,"text":"你就處罰他嘛"},{"start":8368.02,"end":8369.42,"text":"你現在少要講話"},{"start":8371.56,"end":8373.359999999999,"text":"你這個台灣公司要介入"},{"start":8376.49,"end":8377.49,"text":"你這個台灣公司要介入"},{"start":8381.08,"end":8382.68,"text":"台灣的企業員工"},{"start":8382.68,"end":8384.78,"text":"所得的萬一有變動的話"},{"start":8384.78,"end":8385.98,"text":"所得比較少"},{"start":8385.98,"end":8386.98,"text":"至於這個問題"},{"start":8388.1,"end":8389.4,"text":"我拜個禮 恭喜"},{"start":8390.07,"end":8391.869999999999,"text":"很奇怪 很貓咪"},{"start":8393.21,"end":8395.009999999998,"text":"這個到底後面在說什麼"},{"start":8395.009999999998,"end":8396.71,"text":"你看結果就曉得"},{"start":8396.71,"end":8398.41,"text":"台灣公司收購"},{"start":8398.41,"end":8399.21,"text":"謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":8399.21,"end":8400.81,"text":"我們後續還是會依照公平法"},{"start":8400.81,"end":8402.31,"text":"仔細來觀察這個"},{"start":8404.99,"end":8406.09,"text":"謝謝陳主委"},{"start":8406.09,"end":8407.09,"text":"謝謝陳委員"},{"start":8408.6,"end":8410.4,"text":"好 接下來有請羅廷瑋委員"},{"start":8410.4,"end":8411.7,"text":"羅廷瑋 羅廷瑋不在"},{"start":8411.7,"end":8412.9,"text":"有請蘇清泉委員"},{"start":8412.9,"end":8414.3,"text":"蘇清泉 蘇清泉委員不在"},{"start":8414.9,"end":8415.4,"text":"好"},{"start":8416.84,"end":8419.44,"text":"登記發言委員除不在場者外"},{"start":8419.44,"end":8420.74,"text":"其餘均已發言完畢"},{"start":8420.74,"end":8421.74,"text":"詢答結束"},{"start":8422.14,"end":8424.34,"text":"委員呂毅霖 陳庭菲 賴瑞龍"},{"start":8424.34,"end":8425.34,"text":"所提書面質詢"},{"start":8425.34,"end":8426.54,"text":"列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":8426.94,"end":8428.84,"text":"書面質詢及未提答覆部分"},{"start":8428.84,"end":8430.94,"text":"請相關單位於一週內"},{"start":8431.34,"end":8433.64,"text":"以書面答覆並複製本會"},{"start":8433.94,"end":8436.24,"text":"委員令要求限期者"},{"start":8436.24,"end":8437.54,"text":"重啟鎖定"},{"start":8437.84,"end":8439.94,"text":"剛剛本席有要求公平會"},{"start":8439.94,"end":8441.34,"text":"跟經濟部投審司"},{"start":8442.24,"end":8444.14,"text":"請問請一個月內提出"},{"start":8444.64,"end":8445.24,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":8445.64,"end":8448.24,"text":"好 本日鎖定議程處理完畢"},{"start":8448.24,"end":8449.539999999999,"text":"謝謝大家 謝謝三位"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}