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我們現在開會 請醫師人員宣讀上次醫師錄"},{"start":1752.34,"end":1754.1399999999999,"text":"立法院第十一屆第六會期"},{"start":1754.1399999999999,"end":1758.1399999999999,"text":"外交及國防委員會第四次全體委員會議一四錄"},{"start":1758.1399999999999,"end":1760.62,"text":"時間中華民國一百一十五年十月十五日"},{"start":1760.62,"end":1763.86,"text":"星期四上午九時至十三時三十六分"},{"start":1763.86,"end":1765.58,"text":"地點紅樓三零一會議室"},{"start":1765.58,"end":1768.06,"text":"出席委員陳俊瑜等十四人"},{"start":1768.06,"end":1770.02,"text":"列席委員洪玉祥等十三人"},{"start":1770.02,"end":1774.58,"text":"列席人員喬務委員會代理委員長李延慧及所屬人員"},{"start":1774.58,"end":1777.62,"text":"外交部政務次長陳明奇及所屬人員"},{"start":1777.62,"end":1780.4599999999998,"text":"審計部副審計長連汝林"},{"start":1780.46,"end":1784.78,"text":"行政院主計總處會計決算處檢認秘書王文坦"},{"start":1785.3999999999999,"end":1788.04,"text":"主席許昭吉委員曉欣"},{"start":1788.04,"end":1788.8,"text":"報告事項"},{"start":1788.8,"end":1791.4399999999998,"text":"依宣讀上次會議一四錄決定確定二"},{"start":1791.4399999999998,"end":1794.7199999999998,"text":"邀請喬務委員會代理委員長李延慧報告"},{"start":1794.7199999999998,"end":1796.9599999999998,"text":"喬務委員會因公出國管理"},{"start":1796.9599999999998,"end":1799.4799999999998,"text":"駐外接待及公務資源使用情形"},{"start":1799.4799999999998,"end":1803,"text":"並請外交部次長吳志忠列席並備質詢"},{"start":1804.08,"end":1804.8799999999999,"text":"討論事項"},{"start":1804.8799999999999,"end":1805.84,"text":"審裁委員會"},{"start":1806.43,"end":1807.23,"text":"審查"},{"start":1807.23,"end":1810.47,"text":"喬務委員會含送114年第四季"},{"start":1810.47,"end":1812.99,"text":"因公派員出國計畫考察費用"},{"start":1812.99,"end":1814.2700000000002,"text":"執行情形表案"},{"start":1814.2700000000002,"end":1817.19,"text":"喬務委員會副委員長賴麗穎報告"},{"start":1817.19,"end":1819.91,"text":"委員陳俊雲等23人質詢"},{"start":1819.91,"end":1822.7900000000002,"text":"均有喬務委員會代理委員長李延慧"},{"start":1822.7900000000002,"end":1824.39,"text":"副委員長賴麗穎"},{"start":1825.59,"end":1827.6299999999999,"text":"主計事主任甘育霖"},{"start":1827.6299999999999,"end":1829.23,"text":"外交部政務次長陳明奇"},{"start":1829.23,"end":1833.23,"text":"常務次長葛寶軒及審計部副審計長林汝霖"},{"start":1833.23,"end":1834.6299999999999,"text":"等及其答覆"},{"start":1834.6299999999999,"end":1837.1499999999999,"text":"決議登記質詢在場委員均已發言完畢"},{"start":1837.1499999999999,"end":1838.79,"text":"報告及巡達結束"},{"start":1838.79,"end":1840.1499999999999,"text":"二委員陳永康"},{"start":1840.1499999999999,"end":1841.75,"text":"黃仁及傅崑琪所提"},{"start":1841.75,"end":1844.07,"text":"書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":1844.07,"end":1844.9099999999999,"text":"三委員所提"},{"start":1844.9099999999999,"end":1846.6699999999998,"text":"書面及口頭質詢未及答覆"},{"start":1846.6699999999998,"end":1848.47,"text":"或要求提供資訊"},{"start":1848.47,"end":1850.6299999999999,"text":"請身份機關與二周內以書面答覆"},{"start":1850.6299999999999,"end":1854.27,"text":"本會全體委員及質詢委員並複製本會"},{"start":1854.31,"end":1856.35,"text":"委員令指定期限者從其鎖定"},{"start":1856.35,"end":1857.51,"text":"是討論事項一案"},{"start":1857.51,"end":1859.71,"text":"令則其繼續審查宣讀完畢"},{"start":1862.47,"end":1865.3100000000002,"text":"好 請醫事人員宣讀報告事項"},{"start":1865.3100000000002,"end":1866.0700000000002,"text":"報告事項"},{"start":1866.0700000000002,"end":1868.75,"text":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明晏"},{"start":1868.75,"end":1870.43,"text":"率相關情報機關首長"},{"start":1870.43,"end":1873.47,"text":"提出國家情報工作及國家安全局業務報告"},{"start":1873.47,"end":1874.51,"text":"並被質詢"},{"start":1874.51,"end":1875.15,"text":"宣讀完畢"},{"start":1878.77,"end":1882.09,"text":"我們現在介紹在場委員及一位官員"},{"start":1882.09,"end":1883.29,"text":"沈柏楊委員"},{"start":1886.24,"end":1887.52,"text":"羅美林委員"},{"start":1889.09,"end":1891.57,"text":"國家安全局蔡明晏局長"},{"start":1893.94,"end":1896.0600000000002,"text":"國安部憲兵指揮部指揮官"},{"start":1896.0600000000002,"end":1897.18,"text":"鄭貞翔指揮官"},{"start":1899.67,"end":1901.03,"text":"資通軍"},{"start":1901.03,"end":1904.03,"text":"資通電軍指揮部指揮官毛建秋"},{"start":1904.03,"end":1905.15,"text":"指揮官 謝謝"},{"start":1905.67,"end":1908.23,"text":"軍事情報局局長陳明華陳局長"},{"start":1909.63,"end":1912.5500000000002,"text":"電訊發展室主任趙建國趙主任"},{"start":1913.48,"end":1916.8,"text":"政治作戰局副局長胡瑞訊"},{"start":1917.34,"end":1918.34,"text":"副局長"},{"start":1919.37,"end":1922.61,"text":"軍事安全總隊代總隊長陳建勇"},{"start":1922.61,"end":1923.61,"text":"陳代總隊長"},{"start":1924.93,"end":1929.8500000000001,"text":"海洋委員會海巡署副署長謝慶欽副署長"},{"start":1931.17,"end":1934.0500000000002,"text":"巡防組組長洪博生"},{"start":1934.0500000000002,"end":1934.5700000000002,"text":"洪組長"},{"start":1936.1599999999999,"end":1939.04,"text":"情報組組長"},{"start":1939.04,"end":1940.52,"text":"蘇全城"},{"start":1940.52,"end":1941.12,"text":"蘇組長"},{"start":1942.03,"end":1944.75,"text":"內政部警政署張榮新張署長"},{"start":1946.13,"end":1948.89,"text":"刑事警察局邱肇周邱局長"},{"start":1950.3899999999999,"end":1953.1899999999998,"text":"保安組組長王炳瑞"},{"start":1953.1899999999998,"end":1953.7099999999998,"text":"王組長"},{"start":1955.73,"end":1958.69,"text":"保防組組長林慕宏林組長"},{"start":1960.66,"end":1962.98,"text":"內政部移民署林弘恩署長"},{"start":1964.54,"end":1968.42,"text":"國際級執法事務組江林組長"},{"start":1970.38,"end":1973.9,"text":"入出國事務組林俊宜組長"},{"start":1976.2,"end":1978.52,"text":"法務部調查局徐國貞副局長"},{"start":1980.99,"end":1983.63,"text":"國家安全務務處葉立青處長"},{"start":1985.72,"end":1990,"text":"國安國內安全調查處林大專處長"},{"start":1991.88,"end":1994.24,"text":"保防處處長林天進"},{"start":1995.73,"end":1998.53,"text":"資通安全處處長鄭建行"},{"start":1998.53,"end":1999.0900000000001,"text":"鄭處長"},{"start":2000.08,"end":2000.3999999999999,"text":"好"},{"start":2003.02,"end":2008.7,"text":"請問在場委員對上次非議事錄有疑漏或錯誤需要更正之處"},{"start":2010.01,"end":2010.3700000000001,"text":"好"},{"start":2010.3700000000001,"end":2012.53,"text":"如果沒有我們就議事錄確定"},{"start":2014.57,"end":2021.1699999999998,"text":"那本日會議邀請國家安全局局長率相關情報機關首長提出"},{"start":2021.6499999999999,"end":2027.1699999999998,"text":"國家情報工作暨國家安全局又報告並被質詢"},{"start":2027.77,"end":2030.85,"text":"報告區分為公開跟機密兩個部分"},{"start":2031.09,"end":2034.1699999999998,"text":"我們就先公開後秘密報告"},{"start":2034.6499999999999,"end":2038.1299999999999,"text":"詢討又先秘密後公開時間並計"},{"start":2038.53,"end":2041.21,"text":"本會委員質詢時間4加2分鐘"},{"start":2041.29,"end":2043.49,"text":"非本會委員質詢時間4分鐘"},{"start":2043.89,"end":2046.25,"text":"10點30分截止發言登記"},{"start":2046.25,"end":2047.3700000000001,"text":"如果有臨時提案"},{"start":2047.69,"end":2052.09,"text":"請在10點30分前提出11點鐘左右處理"},{"start":2052.53,"end":2056.45,"text":"我們現在就請蔡局長上台就公開部分進行報告"},{"start":2069.7,"end":2073.18,"text":"好謝謝主席各位委員先進各位女士各位先生大家早"},{"start":2073.18,"end":2076.46,"text":"那很榮幸今天來協同我們國安情報機關的首長"},{"start":2076.74,"end":2080.06,"text":"跟委員會這邊來針對今年下半年的業務報告"},{"start":2080.2599999999998,"end":2081.2999999999997,"text":"提出一些說明"},{"start":2081.5,"end":2084.58,"text":"那以下緊就三個部分包括國家安全情勢分析"},{"start":2084.94,"end":2088.22,"text":"還有未來工作重點方向來跟大家做一些報告"},{"start":2088.46,"end":2090.74,"text":"那第一大部分是有關於國家安全情勢分析"},{"start":2090.74,"end":2094.8199999999997,"text":"在當前重要情勢部分我們列舉了大概幾個重點跟大家做說明"},{"start":2095.06,"end":2100.02,"text":"第二部分是美國跟歐洲持續的來推動對中國的經貿去風險"},{"start":2100.38,"end":2103.02,"text":"我們知道在今年的5月第一次川習會之後"},{"start":2103.2200000000003,"end":2106.3,"text":"美國跟中共他有啟動到貿易理事會的機制"},{"start":2106.54,"end":2111.02,"text":"那雙方也同意要付將300億美元的非民港商品的相關的關稅"},{"start":2111.26,"end":2116.3,"text":"那可是中共對於對於美國的相關商品的採購並沒有完全的到位"},{"start":2116.5800000000004,"end":2120.94,"text":"那試圖為今年後續還有兩次的川習會來累計中共方面的談判"},{"start":2120.94,"end":2122.1400000000003,"text":"還有操作的一個籌碼"},{"start":2122.42,"end":2124.42,"text":"那美中除了元首的會談以外"},{"start":2124.58,"end":2131.42,"text":"那雙方也針對外交經貿安全首長的一個溝通機制來表達彼此利益的關切的一個重點"},{"start":2131.78,"end":2137.42,"text":"那除了美國以外歐洲方面歐盟外長的會議也在今年的7月通過了戰略評估報告"},{"start":2137.58,"end":2140.62,"text":"那把中共視為是重大長期的戰略挑戰"},{"start":2140.62,"end":2143.7400000000002,"text":"那也批評中共管制關鍵物資的出口"},{"start":2144.02,"end":2148.78,"text":"那歐盟自衛會的主席Vandlijen也在今年的9月發表萌芹之文強調"},{"start":2148.98,"end":2154.6200000000003,"text":"歐盟將會動用所有的反制工具來平衡歐中雙邊的貿易加強貿易的去風險"},{"start":2154.88,"end":2159.42,"text":"那第二點跟大家提報的是有關於印太國家積極的來提升自主防衛能力"},{"start":2159.6800000000003,"end":2164.78,"text":"所以我們這邊羅列的有美國在印太地區最重要的盟友包括日本韓國菲律賓澳洲等等國家"},{"start":2165.02,"end":2167.28,"text":"他們在明年的國防預算都創下了新高"},{"start":2167.5400000000004,"end":2174.78,"text":"那主要的預算的重點都投資在發展遠距的打擊無人系統跟C5ISR相關的能力的提升"},{"start":2174.98,"end":2178.78,"text":"那目的就在強化這些國家具體防禦的一個量能"},{"start":2179.0400000000004,"end":2186.5800000000004,"text":"那另外在今年1月到10月之間美國跟印太友盟也舉行了28場以上的聯合軍事演訓"},{"start":2186.84,"end":2189.5800000000004,"text":"那參演的部隊累計有達到21.5萬人次"},{"start":2189.84,"end":2194.5400000000004,"text":"那特別是目前正在日本舉行的歷屆二七聯合演習"},{"start":2194.78,"end":2196.5400000000004,"text":"參演人數高達6萬5000人"},{"start":2196.78,"end":2200.78,"text":"大概是今年以來美盟在區域裡面最大規模的聯合演訓"},{"start":2200.78,"end":2206.78,"text":"那另外在今年主要的目的就提升在美國印太友盟之間區域防禦還有續戰韌性的提升"},{"start":2207.0400000000004,"end":2211.5400000000004,"text":"那至於相關的演訓要況請各位可以看到公開資料的第五頁的表格的部分"},{"start":2211.78,"end":2215.78,"text":"那第三點跟大家說明的是美盟他們合力在建構飛鴻供應鏈"},{"start":2216.0400000000004,"end":2220.0400000000004,"text":"那針對這一部分美國已經召開第一屆的關鍵礦產部長會議"},{"start":2220.28,"end":2222.5400000000004,"text":"那也邀請有全球50個國家來參加"},{"start":2222.78,"end":2227.28,"text":"那特別是針對國防半導體電動車電池等等重要產業所需的礦產"},{"start":2227.5400000000004,"end":2230.0400000000004,"text":"來進行必要的合作開發投資還有儲備"},{"start":2230.04,"end":2234.04,"text":"那美國也跟24個國家合組系正式共同打造AI的生態系"},{"start":2234.3,"end":2240.04,"text":"那我們國家也跟美國簽署系正式宣言跟台美經濟安全合作的聯合聲明"},{"start":2240.3,"end":2245.8,"text":"彰顯了我們先進的製造業在全球AI產業鏈裡面扮演非常關鍵的角色"},{"start":2246.04,"end":2249.04,"text":"那另外美國也深化印太產業韌性夥伴關係"},{"start":2249.3,"end":2254.3,"text":"那主要的目的是在協同美國的印太友盟還有其他的國家"},{"start":2254.3,"end":2258.8,"text":"可以來推動國防產業鏈相關關鍵零組件的標準化"},{"start":2258.8,"end":2262.5600000000004,"text":"那我們國家也以顧問的身分來參與這樣的跨國機制"},{"start":2262.8,"end":2268.0600000000004,"text":"那這對於我們在對接美國跟盟友國防、後勤還有印太聯防體系"},{"start":2268.3,"end":2270.0600000000004,"text":"有非常重要的一個意義"},{"start":2270.3,"end":2272.0600000000004,"text":"那第四點跟大家提報說明的是"},{"start":2272.3,"end":2275.8,"text":"中共目前面臨到在政治經濟上致力的一些挑戰"},{"start":2276.0600000000004,"end":2281.3,"text":"那在政治方面中共持續去加強它在官場的反腐的一個整肅"},{"start":2281.5600000000004,"end":2283.0600000000004,"text":"那這部分的資料跟數據"},{"start":2283.0600000000004,"end":2286.0600000000004,"text":"有請各位先進可以參與我們所整理的表格"},{"start":2286.06,"end":2289.32,"text":"那顯示出中共官場還是有充實一些待政"},{"start":2289.56,"end":2292.32,"text":"幹部亂權還有官商勾結的一個亂象"},{"start":2292.56,"end":2293.56,"text":"那在經濟部分"},{"start":2293.82,"end":2297.32,"text":"中共在前三季的經濟成長率大概是4.6%"},{"start":2297.56,"end":2299.32,"text":"低於去年同期的5.6%"},{"start":2299.56,"end":2302.06,"text":"那顯示它內需持續的不振消費疲弱"},{"start":2302.32,"end":2306.32,"text":"但是它的出口還貿易還不斷的在提升"},{"start":2306.56,"end":2308.82,"text":"那這也引發了各國我們剛剛所跟大家說明的"},{"start":2309.06,"end":2313.82,"text":"對於中共產能過剩的一些擔心跟關切"},{"start":2314.32,"end":2317.32,"text":"那另外中共的地方的財政紀律比較"},{"start":2317.5800000000004,"end":2321.0800000000004,"text":"有一些問題也削弱了民間對中共經濟治理的信心"},{"start":2322.24,"end":2324.24,"text":"在社會的部分今年一到七月"},{"start":2324.5,"end":2329.5,"text":"勞工討薪承抗的數量比重達到了49%"},{"start":2329.74,"end":2331.74,"text":"那反映中共的經濟低迷"},{"start":2332,"end":2334.24,"text":"對於就業薪資的問題有帶來一些衝擊"},{"start":2334.5,"end":2336,"text":"那也因為面臨這樣的狀況"},{"start":2336.24,"end":2338.5,"text":"中共開始強化社會的管控"},{"start":2338.74,"end":2341,"text":"包括頒布民主團結進步促進法"},{"start":2341.24,"end":2344,"text":"還有促進入境管理規定等等的新規定"},{"start":2344.24,"end":2346.5,"text":"目的就在遣制負面的輿情"},{"start":2346.74,"end":2350.24,"text":"防範承抗群體進行大規模的串聯"},{"start":2350.74,"end":2353,"text":"第二部分跟大家說明的是我們的國安威脅"},{"start":2353.24,"end":2355,"text":"這部分我們大概整理幾個重點"},{"start":2355.24,"end":2357,"text":"跟大家做主義相似的報告"},{"start":2357.24,"end":2361,"text":"那在台海周邊中共持續的來推進聯合戰備警巡"},{"start":2361.24,"end":2364,"text":"那中共的空軍兵力在今年一到九月"},{"start":2364.24,"end":2366.24,"text":"青老次數大概1450加次"},{"start":2366.5,"end":2368,"text":"那比起去年同期來講"},{"start":2368.24,"end":2370.24,"text":"青老的加次有減少"},{"start":2370.5,"end":2372.5,"text":"戰訓的力度有一些下降"},{"start":2372.74,"end":2376,"text":"那雖然在傳統的軍事的這些青老有下降"},{"start":2376.24,"end":2379.5,"text":"但是在海上會帶的襲擾的力度卻不斷的提升"},{"start":2379.5,"end":2381.26,"text":"那我們可以看到在今年的六月"},{"start":2381.5,"end":2383.76,"text":"中共開始把他的海警海巡船"},{"start":2384,"end":2385.76,"text":"執法巡航的範圍"},{"start":2386,"end":2388.26,"text":"延伸到我們的東部還有西太平洋的海域"},{"start":2388.5,"end":2389.76,"text":"那配合偵訊的操作"},{"start":2390,"end":2393.26,"text":"來塑造一種對於周邊海域管轄的一個假象"},{"start":2393.5,"end":2394.76,"text":"那第二點跟大家說明的是"},{"start":2395,"end":2396.76,"text":"中共也加大對我們的跨國鎮壓"},{"start":2397,"end":2398.26,"text":"跟統戰的滲透"},{"start":2398.5,"end":2399.76,"text":"在跨國鎮壓的部分"},{"start":2400,"end":2402.26,"text":"中共指使境外還有在地"},{"start":2402.5,"end":2403.76,"text":"台灣內部的協力者"},{"start":2404,"end":2406.26,"text":"來監視跟派我們特定的國人"},{"start":2406.5,"end":2408.76,"text":"那甚至製造一些肢體的衝突"},{"start":2408.76,"end":2411.5200000000004,"text":"包括潑漆討債還有製造假車禍"},{"start":2411.76,"end":2414.5200000000004,"text":"等等的事故希望用暴力來恫嚇"},{"start":2414.76,"end":2417.5200000000004,"text":"我們的國人讓國人產生畏懼"},{"start":2417.76,"end":2418.76,"text":"引發寒蟬的效應"},{"start":2419.0200000000004,"end":2420.0200000000004,"text":"那在交通統戰的部分"},{"start":2420.26,"end":2423.76,"text":"中共還是延續他們對台觸統觸容的一個基調"},{"start":2424.0200000000004,"end":2427.5200000000004,"text":"那特別把重點放在爭取我們的青年族群"},{"start":2427.76,"end":2430.0200000000004,"text":"還有工商企業到中國來發展"},{"start":2430.26,"end":2431.5200000000004,"text":"增進對中國的認同"},{"start":2431.76,"end":2433.0200000000004,"text":"那在勤工滲透的部分"},{"start":2433.26,"end":2435.5200000000004,"text":"中共透過勤工接觸還有網路勾連"},{"start":2435.76,"end":2436.5200000000004,"text":"等等的管道"},{"start":2436.52,"end":2438.28,"text":"我們也企圖取得我們政府"},{"start":2438.52,"end":2439.78,"text":"還有軍隊的今年的資訊"},{"start":2440.02,"end":2441.28,"text":"那在過去的七年"},{"start":2441.52,"end":2444.28,"text":"也就是2020年到今年10月為止"},{"start":2444.52,"end":2446.28,"text":"那我們的國安共諜案的偵辦"},{"start":2446.52,"end":2447.78,"text":"不含反滲透法的案件"},{"start":2448.02,"end":2450.78,"text":"起訴人數已經從2020年的6個人"},{"start":2451.02,"end":2453.28,"text":"攀升到今年的73個人"},{"start":2453.52,"end":2455.28,"text":"那其中這些案件"},{"start":2455.52,"end":2457.28,"text":"移送到法院來進行判決"},{"start":2457.52,"end":2459.28,"text":"定罪率也高達91%"},{"start":2459.52,"end":2460.78,"text":"那另外判處的刑度"},{"start":2461.02,"end":2462.28,"text":"也從2020年平均"},{"start":2462.52,"end":2463.28,"text":"只有一年的刑度"},{"start":2463.28,"end":2464.5400000000004,"text":"那在科技簽密的部分"},{"start":2464.78,"end":2466.0400000000004,"text":"從2020年到現在"},{"start":2466.28,"end":2468.0400000000004,"text":"累計證破151起"},{"start":2468.28,"end":2471.0400000000004,"text":"中資沒有經過審查來台灣"},{"start":2471.28,"end":2473.0400000000004,"text":"落地營運或在台挖角的案件"},{"start":2473.28,"end":2475.0400000000004,"text":"那另外也有50起"},{"start":2475.28,"end":2477.0400000000004,"text":"中共對我們的科技簽密案的證破"},{"start":2477.28,"end":2479.0400000000004,"text":"那在對台競選部分"},{"start":2479.28,"end":2481.0400000000004,"text":"那中共透過非法資金的挹注"},{"start":2481.28,"end":2483.0400000000004,"text":"招待到中國大陸旅遊"},{"start":2483.28,"end":2485.0400000000004,"text":"或是贊助各種各樣的"},{"start":2485.28,"end":2487.0400000000004,"text":"科技資訊的證據"},{"start":2487.28,"end":2488.0400000000004,"text":"那在這幾年"},{"start":2488.28,"end":2489.28,"text":"我們也有進行過"},{"start":2489.28,"end":2491.0400000000004,"text":"一個非常大的判決"},{"start":2491.04,"end":2492.8,"text":"那這部分在會前"},{"start":2493.04,"end":2493.8,"text":"媒體朋友在關心"},{"start":2494.04,"end":2495.8,"text":"也有跟大家做一些說明"},{"start":2496.04,"end":2497.8,"text":"第三點是中共有"},{"start":2498.04,"end":2499.8,"text":"甚高對我們的網害"},{"start":2500.04,"end":2502.8,"text":"侵擾的一些力度"},{"start":2503.04,"end":2504.8,"text":"那從今年1月到9月為止"},{"start":2505.04,"end":2506.8,"text":"我們政府服務網GSN"},{"start":2507.04,"end":2508.8,"text":"每天平均遭到"},{"start":2509.04,"end":2510.8,"text":"侵擾次數達到258萬"},{"start":2511.04,"end":2511.8,"text":"於次數"},{"start":2512.04,"end":2512.8,"text":"那在這幾年"},{"start":2513.04,"end":2514.8,"text":"我們也有進行一些"},{"start":2515.04,"end":2515.8,"text":"的判決"},{"start":2516.04,"end":2516.8,"text":"那在這幾年"},{"start":2517.04,"end":2518.8,"text":"我們也有進行一些"},{"start":2518.8,"end":2520.5600000000004,"text":"侵擾次數達到258萬"},{"start":2520.8,"end":2521.5600000000004,"text":"於次數"},{"start":2521.8,"end":2523.5600000000004,"text":"跟去年來比較"},{"start":2523.8,"end":2524.5600000000004,"text":"有明顯的增加"},{"start":2524.8,"end":2526.5600000000004,"text":"那特別在今年的6月出現"},{"start":2526.8,"end":2527.5600000000004,"text":"上揚的態勢"},{"start":2528.77,"end":2530.53,"text":"7月我們偵測到的"},{"start":2530.77,"end":2531.53,"text":"次數跟我們"},{"start":2532.5,"end":2534.26,"text":"達到了一億次以上"},{"start":2534.5,"end":2536.26,"text":"那不排除這些的網害"},{"start":2536.5,"end":2537.26,"text":"目的是要來"},{"start":2537.5,"end":2540.26,"text":"針對我們今年9月1的選舉"},{"start":2540.5,"end":2541.26,"text":"來預做一些情收"},{"start":2541.5,"end":2542.26,"text":"還有侵擾的準備"},{"start":2542.5,"end":2543.26,"text":"那值得注意的是"},{"start":2543.5,"end":2544.26,"text":"中共的網軍"},{"start":2544.5,"end":2545.26,"text":"也運用AI來進行"},{"start":2545.5,"end":2546.26,"text":"目標的偵查"},{"start":2546.5,"end":2547.26,"text":"靈異漏洞的挖掘"},{"start":2547.5,"end":2549.26,"text":"還有社交電郵攻擊的活動"},{"start":2549.5,"end":2550.26,"text":"企圖來提升"},{"start":2550.5,"end":2552.26,"text":"對我們的網害網清"},{"start":2552.5,"end":2553.26,"text":"攻擊的節奏"},{"start":2553.5,"end":2554.26,"text":"還有滲透的效率"},{"start":2554.5,"end":2555.26,"text":"那第四點跟大家說明的是"},{"start":2555.5,"end":2557.26,"text":"中共散布證明訊息"},{"start":2557.5,"end":2558.26,"text":"還有操作認知作戰"},{"start":2558.5,"end":2560.26,"text":"那從今年1到9月"},{"start":2560.5,"end":2562.26,"text":"那我們國安情報團隊"},{"start":2562.5,"end":2564.26,"text":"通過追蹤異常帳號"},{"start":2564.5,"end":2566.26,"text":"收到的有250萬餘折的"},{"start":2566.5,"end":2569.26,"text":"中共的產製的爭議訊息"},{"start":2569.5,"end":2570.26,"text":"那這跟去年通勤來比較"},{"start":2570.5,"end":2571.26,"text":"也是有明顯的增加"},{"start":2571.5,"end":2573.26,"text":"那在傳線平台的部分"},{"start":2573.5,"end":2574.26,"text":"其中臉書跟Trade"},{"start":2574.5,"end":2576.26,"text":"它的徵信佔比大幅的增加"},{"start":2576.5,"end":2578.26,"text":"那我們可以看到"},{"start":2578.5,"end":2580.26,"text":"中共主要大概都是透過"},{"start":2580.5,"end":2582.26,"text":"官方或官媒設定的"},{"start":2582.5,"end":2583.26,"text":"敘事框架"},{"start":2583.5,"end":2584.26,"text":"然後再透過"},{"start":2584.5,"end":2585.26,"text":"它協力的代理帳號"},{"start":2585.5,"end":2586.26,"text":"網路水軍"},{"start":2586.5,"end":2587.26,"text":"還有公關公司"},{"start":2587.5,"end":2588.26,"text":"那在不同的社群"},{"start":2588.5,"end":2589.26,"text":"媒體平台"},{"start":2589.5,"end":2591.26,"text":"透過假訊息的散布"},{"start":2591.5,"end":2592.26,"text":"或生成"},{"start":2592.5,"end":2594.26,"text":"影音來進行"},{"start":2594.5,"end":2596.26,"text":"傳散虛假訊息"},{"start":2596.5,"end":2598.26,"text":"或是進行留言的洗版"},{"start":2598.5,"end":2601.26,"text":"來混淆我們國人的視聽"},{"start":2601.5,"end":2602.26,"text":"好 第二大部分是有關於"},{"start":2602.5,"end":2604.26,"text":"我們未來工作重點的方向"},{"start":2604.5,"end":2605.26,"text":"這邊大概整理6點"},{"start":2605.5,"end":2606.26,"text":"跟大家做報告"},{"start":2606.5,"end":2607.26,"text":"那第一部分是"},{"start":2607.5,"end":2609.26,"text":"強化國際情報的合作"},{"start":2609.5,"end":2611.26,"text":"擴大區域聯訪的網絡"},{"start":2611.5,"end":2612.26,"text":"那這部分本局會"},{"start":2612.5,"end":2613.26,"text":"持續的來深化"},{"start":2613.5,"end":2615.26,"text":"跟國際友盟的情資合作"},{"start":2615.5,"end":2616.26,"text":"適時來分享"},{"start":2616.5,"end":2618.26,"text":"社中威脅的情資"},{"start":2618.5,"end":2619.26,"text":"那也共同來掌收"},{"start":2619.5,"end":2620.26,"text":"中共跟國際情史"},{"start":2620.5,"end":2621.26,"text":"發展的趨勢"},{"start":2621.5,"end":2622.26,"text":"以及對我們國安"},{"start":2622.5,"end":2624.26,"text":"威脅的預警情訊"},{"start":2624.52,"end":2625.28,"text":"那第二部分是"},{"start":2625.52,"end":2627.28,"text":"優化對中的情收的作為"},{"start":2627.52,"end":2629.28,"text":"來拓建內密的情訊管道"},{"start":2629.52,"end":2631.28,"text":"那因為明年秋天"},{"start":2631.52,"end":2632.28,"text":"中共會舉行"},{"start":2632.52,"end":2634.28,"text":"21大的相關的"},{"start":2634.52,"end":2635.28,"text":"政治跟人事的布局"},{"start":2635.52,"end":2636.28,"text":"那所以本局"},{"start":2636.52,"end":2637.28,"text":"為了掌收中共內外的情勢"},{"start":2637.52,"end":2638.28,"text":"以及對我們的"},{"start":2638.52,"end":2639.28,"text":"國家安全的威脅"},{"start":2639.52,"end":2640.28,"text":"也會持續的"},{"start":2640.52,"end":2642.28,"text":"來優化精準情收的作為"},{"start":2642.52,"end":2644.28,"text":"收援各類社中的情報"},{"start":2644.52,"end":2645.28,"text":"以及對我國"},{"start":2645.52,"end":2647.28,"text":"國家安全影響的增厚"},{"start":2647.52,"end":2648.28,"text":"好 第三部分是"},{"start":2648.52,"end":2649.28,"text":"發揮國安聯訪的效果"},{"start":2649.52,"end":2651.28,"text":"來因應中共的跨國鎮壓"},{"start":2651.52,"end":2652.28,"text":"那這部分我們會"},{"start":2652.52,"end":2653.28,"text":"持續的來指導"},{"start":2653.52,"end":2654.28,"text":"我們國安情報團隊"},{"start":2654.52,"end":2655.28,"text":"收報預警的情資"},{"start":2655.52,"end":2656.28,"text":"完善我們安危部署"},{"start":2656.52,"end":2657.28,"text":"那遇到釋況立即的"},{"start":2657.52,"end":2659.28,"text":"查處跟反制"},{"start":2659.52,"end":2660.28,"text":"那也會加強保護"},{"start":2660.52,"end":2662.28,"text":"遭到鎮壓的受害者的安全"},{"start":2662.52,"end":2664.28,"text":"並且依法來嚴懲加害者"},{"start":2664.52,"end":2665.28,"text":"那這部分我本人跟"},{"start":2665.52,"end":2666.28,"text":"前任署長"},{"start":2666.52,"end":2667.28,"text":"我們都常常保持"},{"start":2667.52,"end":2668.28,"text":"密切的聯繫"},{"start":2668.52,"end":2669.28,"text":"針對一些個案"},{"start":2669.52,"end":2671.28,"text":"來進行必要的情收部署"},{"start":2671.52,"end":2672.28,"text":"好 第四點是"},{"start":2672.52,"end":2673.28,"text":"有關於完善選舉"},{"start":2673.52,"end":2674.28,"text":"安危的部署"},{"start":2674.52,"end":2675.28,"text":"那這部分"},{"start":2675.52,"end":2677.28,"text":"我們會把重點"},{"start":2677.52,"end":2678.28,"text":"放在協調"},{"start":2678.52,"end":2679.28,"text":"我們國安情報機關"},{"start":2679.52,"end":2681.28,"text":"來加強駐收"},{"start":2681.52,"end":2683.28,"text":"中共還有境外敵對勢力"},{"start":2683.28,"end":2684.0400000000004,"text":"境外敵對勢力"},{"start":2684.28,"end":2685.0400000000004,"text":"竭選的市政"},{"start":2685.28,"end":2686.0400000000004,"text":"跟重大徵詢"},{"start":2686.28,"end":2687.0400000000004,"text":"那剛剛在"},{"start":2687.28,"end":2688.0400000000004,"text":"會前跟媒體朋友說明也是"},{"start":2688.28,"end":2690.0400000000004,"text":"我們這邊會盡量在選前"},{"start":2690.28,"end":2692.0400000000004,"text":"有相關具體市政的話"},{"start":2692.28,"end":2694.0400000000004,"text":"盡快移送到司法機關"},{"start":2694.28,"end":2696.0400000000004,"text":"來進行必要的偵辦"},{"start":2696.28,"end":2697.0400000000004,"text":"好 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謝謝"},{"start":5514.73,"end":5515.49,"text":"謝謝局長"},{"start":5515.73,"end":5516.49,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":5520.75,"end":5522.51,"text":"好 謝謝羅美齡委員"},{"start":5522.75,"end":5523.51,"text":"接下來我們請"},{"start":5523.75,"end":5525.51,"text":"陳俊宇委員質詢"},{"start":5532.85,"end":5533.610000000001,"text":"好 謝謝昭偉"},{"start":5533.85,"end":5534.610000000001,"text":"有請蔡局長"},{"start":5534.96,"end":5535.72,"text":"蔡子彈前"},{"start":5539.38,"end":5540.14,"text":"局長早"},{"start":5540.99,"end":5541.75,"text":"陳委員早"},{"start":5541.99,"end":5543.75,"text":"局長 我們今天的這個報告當中"},{"start":5543.99,"end":5546.75,"text":"看到對於當前重要的情勢"},{"start":5546.99,"end":5548.75,"text":"有諸多的這種資訊跟分析"},{"start":5548.99,"end":5551.75,"text":"那我想首先跟您來請教"},{"start":5551.99,"end":5552.75,"text":"就是中共在這個"},{"start":5552.99,"end":5554.75,"text":"政經和軍事上的現況"},{"start":5554.99,"end":5556.75,"text":"那上個月這個習近平"},{"start":5556.99,"end":5558.75,"text":"回訪美國和川普"},{"start":5558.99,"end":5561.75,"text":"進行了今年度的第二次川習會"},{"start":5561.99,"end":5562.75,"text":"那在報告當中也有提到"},{"start":5562.99,"end":5564.75,"text":"主要還是聚焦在"},{"start":5564.99,"end":5566.75,"text":"管理經貿的爭議"},{"start":5566.99,"end":5567.75,"text":"還有美國關注的是"},{"start":5567.99,"end":5568.75,"text":"這個稀土供應"},{"start":5568.99,"end":5569.75,"text":"那中國關切的"},{"start":5569.75,"end":5571.51,"text":"還是在這個科技管制的"},{"start":5571.75,"end":5572.51,"text":"相關部分"},{"start":5572.75,"end":5573.51,"text":"那特別提到"},{"start":5573.75,"end":5574.51,"text":"中共在經濟上"},{"start":5574.75,"end":5575.51,"text":"成長率相較於"},{"start":5575.75,"end":5577.51,"text":"去年的這個同期"},{"start":5577.75,"end":5578.51,"text":"看起來是更糟"},{"start":5578.75,"end":5580.51,"text":"那也有這個內部經濟"},{"start":5580.75,"end":5582.51,"text":"這個動能不正的問題"},{"start":5582.75,"end":5584.51,"text":"加上政治和社會的一個動盪"},{"start":5584.75,"end":5586.51,"text":"所以藉由這兩次的這個"},{"start":5586.75,"end":5587.51,"text":"元首會談"},{"start":5587.75,"end":5589.51,"text":"我想也是在尋求國內"},{"start":5589.75,"end":5592.51,"text":"這個政經壓力的一個紓緩"},{"start":5592.75,"end":5593.51,"text":"不過這個峰會"},{"start":5593.75,"end":5595.51,"text":"實質成果似乎比較有限"},{"start":5595.75,"end":5597.51,"text":"即便持續的這個"},{"start":5597.51,"end":5598.27,"text":"貿易修兵"},{"start":5598.51,"end":5599.27,"text":"競爭的這種格局"},{"start":5599.51,"end":5600.27,"text":"還是沒有改變"},{"start":5600.51,"end":5601.27,"text":"那從大方向來看"},{"start":5601.51,"end":5603.27,"text":"國安局怎麼來評估9月份"},{"start":5603.51,"end":5605.27,"text":"這個川習二次會後"},{"start":5605.51,"end":5607.27,"text":"美中所謂的建設性的"},{"start":5607.51,"end":5609.27,"text":"戰略穩定關係的變化"},{"start":5609.51,"end":5611.27,"text":"那在今年底前的"},{"start":5611.51,"end":5612.27,"text":"這兩次會談之前"},{"start":5612.51,"end":5613.27,"text":"還有沒有可能"},{"start":5613.51,"end":5615.27,"text":"會觸及到台灣議題"},{"start":5615.51,"end":5616.27,"text":"這部分是不是請局長"},{"start":5616.51,"end":5617.27,"text":"檢要說明一下"},{"start":5617.51,"end":5618.27,"text":"對 大概在9月份的"},{"start":5618.51,"end":5620.27,"text":"第二次川習會"},{"start":5620.51,"end":5621.27,"text":"那我們看到的是"},{"start":5621.51,"end":5623.27,"text":"大概雙方希望透過"},{"start":5623.51,"end":5625.27,"text":"原始的這個政策"},{"start":5625.27,"end":5627.030000000001,"text":"或是大概雙方希望透過"},{"start":5627.27,"end":5629.030000000001,"text":"元首友好的互動"},{"start":5629.27,"end":5630.030000000001,"text":"來管理美中兩國"},{"start":5630.27,"end":5632.030000000001,"text":"高度競爭的關係"},{"start":5632.27,"end":5635.030000000001,"text":"這大概就是基本的概況"},{"start":5635.27,"end":5636.030000000001,"text":"那在過程當中"},{"start":5636.27,"end":5637.030000000001,"text":"我們看到他們確實是"},{"start":5637.27,"end":5639.030000000001,"text":"希望能夠來管理"},{"start":5639.27,"end":5640.030000000001,"text":"彼此的爭議"},{"start":5640.27,"end":5641.030000000001,"text":"不要讓它升高"},{"start":5641.27,"end":5643.030000000001,"text":"變成一種比較全面式的對抗"},{"start":5643.27,"end":5644.030000000001,"text":"但是過程當中"},{"start":5644.27,"end":5645.030000000001,"text":"你可以看到"},{"start":5645.27,"end":5647.030000000001,"text":"雙方非常多的角力"},{"start":5647.27,"end":5648.030000000001,"text":"跟委員報告說明一下"},{"start":5648.27,"end":5650.030000000001,"text":"在9月的川習會之前"},{"start":5650.27,"end":5651.030000000001,"text":"8月前一個月"},{"start":5651.27,"end":5653.030000000001,"text":"中共對美國的稀土出口"},{"start":5653.27,"end":5655.030000000001,"text":"降減了20%"},{"start":5655.27,"end":5656.030000000001,"text":"20%"},{"start":5656.27,"end":5657.030000000001,"text":"故意的操作"},{"start":5657.27,"end":5659.030000000001,"text":"另外中共承諾跟美國"},{"start":5659.27,"end":5661.030000000001,"text":"採買的這些大豆"},{"start":5661.27,"end":5663.030000000001,"text":"本來今年的額度"},{"start":5663.27,"end":5665.030000000001,"text":"應該是2500萬噸"},{"start":5665.27,"end":5666.030000000001,"text":"但是到現在"},{"start":5666.27,"end":5667.030000000001,"text":"中共也只執行"},{"start":5667.27,"end":5669.030000000001,"text":"大概一半左右的採購量"},{"start":5669.27,"end":5670.030000000001,"text":"所以你可以看到"},{"start":5670.27,"end":5672.030000000001,"text":"在川習會之前"},{"start":5672.27,"end":5674.030000000001,"text":"中共有刻意的做一些操作"},{"start":5674.27,"end":5676.030000000001,"text":"希望能夠來增加"},{"start":5676.27,"end":5677.030000000001,"text":"不只是這次9月的川習會"},{"start":5677.27,"end":5679.030000000001,"text":"以及後續還有兩次川習會"},{"start":5679.27,"end":5681.030000000001,"text":"中共相關的一個籌碼"},{"start":5681.27,"end":5682.030000000001,"text":"那美國方面也是"},{"start":5682.27,"end":5685.030000000001,"text":"中共希望在兩國"},{"start":5685.27,"end":5686.030000000001,"text":"的這部分之下"},{"start":5686.27,"end":5687.030000000001,"text":"美國可以去讓"},{"start":5687.27,"end":5688.030000000001,"text":"雙方的貿易休兵"},{"start":5688.27,"end":5690.030000000001,"text":"延長到整個川普"},{"start":5690.27,"end":5692.030000000001,"text":"政府的任期"},{"start":5692.27,"end":5693.030000000001,"text":"都不要去談貿易的問題"},{"start":5693.27,"end":5694.030000000001,"text":"但川普只同意"},{"start":5694.27,"end":5695.030000000001,"text":"延長到"},{"start":5695.27,"end":5696.030000000001,"text":"從今年的11月"},{"start":5696.27,"end":5697.030000000001,"text":"延長到明年的1月"},{"start":5697.27,"end":5699.030000000001,"text":"給他多兩個月的延長而已"},{"start":5699.27,"end":5700.030000000001,"text":"所以你看到"},{"start":5700.27,"end":5701.030000000001,"text":"不管是在高科技"},{"start":5701.27,"end":5702.030000000001,"text":"經貿"},{"start":5702.27,"end":5704.030000000001,"text":"或是相關的"},{"start":5704.27,"end":5706.030000000001,"text":"產品採購的部分"},{"start":5706.27,"end":5708.030000000001,"text":"雙方是處處疾風"},{"start":5708.27,"end":5709.030000000001,"text":"好"},{"start":5709.27,"end":5710.030000000001,"text":"那在這個"},{"start":5710.27,"end":5712.030000000001,"text":"強化社會的控制方面"},{"start":5712.27,"end":5713.030000000001,"text":"我們看到"},{"start":5713.27,"end":5714.030000000001,"text":"中共近期陸續"},{"start":5714.03,"end":5715.79,"text":"推出幾部法律"},{"start":5716.03,"end":5717.79,"text":"包括先前我們在討論的"},{"start":5718.03,"end":5719.79,"text":"這個民主團結進步出境法"},{"start":5720.03,"end":5722.79,"text":"那還有這個今天想要"},{"start":5723.03,"end":5723.79,"text":"這個詢問的是"},{"start":5724.03,"end":5725.79,"text":"出境入境管理規定"},{"start":5726.03,"end":5727.79,"text":"和這個國防動員法"},{"start":5728.03,"end":5729.79,"text":"那基本上這個都是中國"},{"start":5730.03,"end":5732.79,"text":"它以國家安全為由進行擴張"},{"start":5733.03,"end":5734.79,"text":"用模糊的這種定義"},{"start":5735.03,"end":5736.79,"text":"將權力下放給執法的單位"},{"start":5737.03,"end":5738.79,"text":"當然也引發不少的疑慮"},{"start":5739.03,"end":5740.79,"text":"那譬如這個出境"},{"start":5741.03,"end":5742.79,"text":"出境入境的這個管理法"},{"start":5742.79,"end":5744.55,"text":"出境入境的這個管理規定"},{"start":5744.79,"end":5746.55,"text":"擴大限制出境的這個"},{"start":5746.79,"end":5747.55,"text":"適用範圍"},{"start":5747.79,"end":5749.55,"text":"對於這個我們"},{"start":5749.79,"end":5751.55,"text":"需要往返兩岸的這個國人"},{"start":5751.79,"end":5752.55,"text":"包括我們台商"},{"start":5752.79,"end":5755.55,"text":"是否會造成更多的不確定性"},{"start":5755.79,"end":5757.55,"text":"而且他們所新修的這個"},{"start":5757.79,"end":5758.55,"text":"國防動員法"},{"start":5758.79,"end":5762.55,"text":"將會納入更多的這個國家管制"},{"start":5762.79,"end":5763.55,"text":"是否這個"},{"start":5763.79,"end":5766.55,"text":"中共會以統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那事實上跟我們報告"},{"start":5779.55,"end":5781.31,"text":"我們剛剛在葉報的說明當中"},{"start":5781.55,"end":5782.31,"text":"有提到"},{"start":5782.55,"end":5784.31,"text":"中共現在不管政治經濟社會的"},{"start":5784.55,"end":5786.31,"text":"不確定跟挑戰是比較高的"},{"start":5786.55,"end":5787.31,"text":"所以它透過一些法規"},{"start":5787.55,"end":5789.31,"text":"來加強對內的控管"},{"start":5789.55,"end":5790.31,"text":"那我們剛剛所提到的"},{"start":5790.55,"end":5792.31,"text":"出境管理規定跟國防動員法"},{"start":5792.55,"end":5794.31,"text":"我覺得就台灣部分"},{"start":5794.55,"end":5795.31,"text":"特別要注意的是"},{"start":5795.55,"end":5796.31,"text":"假如有台商"},{"start":5796.55,"end":5799.31,"text":"或是你在泰國企業服務的國人"},{"start":5799.55,"end":5800.31,"text":"那到對岸去"},{"start":5800.31,"end":5802.070000000001,"text":"那你在出境的部分"},{"start":5802.31,"end":5804.070000000001,"text":"它可能為了所謂要管控"},{"start":5804.31,"end":5805.070000000001,"text":"高科技的外流"},{"start":5805.31,"end":5806.070000000001,"text":"會做一些必要的管制"},{"start":5806.31,"end":5807.070000000001,"text":"那這會讓我們的台商"},{"start":5807.31,"end":5811.070000000001,"text":"或在國際跨國企業服務的國務人"},{"start":5811.31,"end":5813.070000000001,"text":"在旅行的自由行動度上"},{"start":5813.31,"end":5815.070000000001,"text":"可能會比較受到一些干擾"},{"start":5815.31,"end":5816.070000000001,"text":"那這也是我們有聽到"},{"start":5816.31,"end":5818.070000000001,"text":"有一些台商圈"},{"start":5818.31,"end":5821.070000000001,"text":"或是跨國的這些服務的國務人"},{"start":5821.31,"end":5823.070000000001,"text":"他們在討論過程當中"},{"start":5823.31,"end":5824.070000000001,"text":"有這方面的不安"},{"start":5824.31,"end":5825.070000000001,"text":"這大概第一部分"},{"start":5825.31,"end":5827.070000000001,"text":"那針對國防動員法的部分也是"},{"start":5827.31,"end":5829.070000000001,"text":"中共希望透過法律來加強"},{"start":5829.07,"end":5831.83,"text":"政府對於民間國防資源的動員"},{"start":5832.07,"end":5834.83,"text":"那這可能對於我們在大陸投資的台商"},{"start":5835.07,"end":5836.83,"text":"可能產生的問題是在於"},{"start":5837.07,"end":5838.83,"text":"中共可以用國防動員的名義"},{"start":5839.07,"end":5840.83,"text":"來徵收或徵用"},{"start":5841.07,"end":5842.83,"text":"我們台商相關的產能"},{"start":5843.07,"end":5844.83,"text":"或相關的產線"},{"start":5845.07,"end":5845.83,"text":"那更重要的"},{"start":5846.07,"end":5848.83,"text":"有沒有可能會用國防動員的需求"},{"start":5849.07,"end":5853.83,"text":"去徵收徵用台商的關鍵科技"},{"start":5854.07,"end":5854.83,"text":"那把它當成一個管道"},{"start":5855.07,"end":5858.83,"text":"來徵用你的那個廠商的技術"},{"start":5859.07,"end":5860.83,"text":"那是我們最核心的關鍵科技"},{"start":5861.07,"end":5861.83,"text":"所以在有這些法規之後"},{"start":5862.07,"end":5863.83,"text":"再加上它的法律的定義"},{"start":5864.07,"end":5864.83,"text":"不是那麼明確之下"},{"start":5865.07,"end":5866.83,"text":"那可能我們就必須要去注意到"},{"start":5867.07,"end":5867.83,"text":"它對於我們台商"},{"start":5868.07,"end":5869.83,"text":"或是在大陸投資人士"},{"start":5870.07,"end":5871.83,"text":"可能產生這種企業"},{"start":5872.07,"end":5873.83,"text":"或個人人身行動自由"},{"start":5874.07,"end":5874.83,"text":"帶來的一個風險"},{"start":5875.07,"end":5877.83,"text":"局長有沒有什麼樣的一個防範措施"},{"start":5878.07,"end":5880.83,"text":"對 因為它畢竟是在中國國內的法律"},{"start":5881.07,"end":5882.83,"text":"所以大概我們還是會提醒"},{"start":5883.07,"end":5884.83,"text":"可能在復老"},{"start":5885.07,"end":5887.83,"text":"或是復派到大陸的公司"},{"start":5887.83,"end":5888.59,"text":"服務的過程當中"},{"start":5888.83,"end":5890.59,"text":"那可能還是要注意一下"},{"start":5890.83,"end":5891.59,"text":"個人的人身安全"},{"start":5891.83,"end":5893.59,"text":"那以前好像也跟委員說明過"},{"start":5893.83,"end":5895.59,"text":"特別你的一些通訊設備"},{"start":5895.83,"end":5897.59,"text":"那也要注意到不要有一些"},{"start":5897.83,"end":5900.59,"text":"批評中共的一些言論"},{"start":5900.83,"end":5902.59,"text":"或是跟有一些團體"},{"start":5902.83,"end":5903.59,"text":"有一些連結"},{"start":5903.83,"end":5905.59,"text":"那你到了中國大陸的境內"},{"start":5905.83,"end":5908.59,"text":"那自然你的法律風險會隨之提高"},{"start":5908.83,"end":5910.59,"text":"那這部分的說明跟警示"},{"start":5910.83,"end":5912.59,"text":"那我想有必要來跟"},{"start":5912.83,"end":5914.59,"text":"我們社會大眾做一些提醒"},{"start":5914.83,"end":5915.59,"text":"就國安的角度"},{"start":5915.83,"end":5916.59,"text":"好 那這個部分"},{"start":5916.59,"end":5918.35,"text":"這個部分就請我們國安局"},{"start":5918.59,"end":5921.35,"text":"能夠密切的掌握相關的情勢"},{"start":5921.59,"end":5924.35,"text":"那也要適當的向國人"},{"start":5924.59,"end":5926.35,"text":"來做一個說明跟報告"},{"start":5926.59,"end":5928.35,"text":"像包括剛剛講的台商部分"},{"start":5928.59,"end":5930.35,"text":"或是我們國人附陸的部分"},{"start":5930.59,"end":5932.35,"text":"能夠有一個宣導"},{"start":5932.59,"end":5934.35,"text":"或是跟他們先告誡"},{"start":5934.59,"end":5937.35,"text":"讓他們能夠在這種情況之下"},{"start":5937.59,"end":5938.35,"text":"能夠避免的就避免"},{"start":5938.59,"end":5940.35,"text":"我想這樣子才能夠確保"},{"start":5940.59,"end":5941.35,"text":"我們國家的安全"},{"start":5941.59,"end":5943.35,"text":"跟民眾的一個自由"},{"start":5943.59,"end":5944.35,"text":"好 這很重要"},{"start":5944.59,"end":5945.35,"text":"謝委員的提醒"},{"start":5945.59,"end":5946.35,"text":"好 謝謝局長"},{"start":5947.13,"end":5948.89,"text":"好 謝謝陳俊委員"},{"start":5951.57,"end":5954.33,"text":"好 接下來我們請林楚英委員諮詢"},{"start":5965.53,"end":5966.29,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":5966.53,"end":5968.29,"text":"主席有請國安局蔡局長"},{"start":5968.53,"end":5970.29,"text":"內政部"},{"start":5971.83,"end":5976.59,"text":"還有我們內政部移民署林署長"},{"start":5976.83,"end":5979.59,"text":"以及法務部調查局徐副局長"},{"start":5979.83,"end":5980.59,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":5980.83,"end":5981.59,"text":"移民署調查局"},{"start":5981.83,"end":5982.59,"text":"麻煩了"},{"start":5982.83,"end":5983.59,"text":"好 謝謝 林委員早"},{"start":5983.83,"end":5985.59,"text":"好 剛剛因為有機密會議"},{"start":5985.83,"end":5988.59,"text":"所以有一些如果是試射機密的"},{"start":5988.83,"end":5989.59,"text":"我們已經知道的"},{"start":5989.83,"end":5991.59,"text":"那就可以不用在這邊做回覆"},{"start":5991.83,"end":5992.59,"text":"好 謝謝委員"},{"start":5992.83,"end":5994.59,"text":"那麼我想本席要問的題目"},{"start":5994.83,"end":5995.59,"text":"跟羅美林委員一樣"},{"start":5995.83,"end":5998.59,"text":"就是有關於跨國鎮壓的部分"},{"start":5998.83,"end":5999.59,"text":"本席剛剛看到一個"},{"start":5999.59,"end":6001.35,"text":"剛剛看到一個最新的訊息"},{"start":6001.59,"end":6004.35,"text":"就是風傳媒他報導了"},{"start":6004.59,"end":6006.35,"text":"不只是沈柏楊被跟監"},{"start":6006.59,"end":6009.35,"text":"連這個退休的港警"},{"start":6009.59,"end":6011.35,"text":"都成立了所謂的影子警網"},{"start":6011.59,"end":6014.35,"text":"四度來台鎖定沈柏楊"},{"start":6014.59,"end":6016.35,"text":"甚至於認為名單"},{"start":6016.59,"end":6018.35,"text":"不只沈柏楊一人"},{"start":6018.59,"end":6019.35,"text":"本席特別把這個報導"},{"start":6019.59,"end":6021.35,"text":"先做成了一個網"},{"start":6021.59,"end":6023.35,"text":"由是過去我們看港劇"},{"start":6023.59,"end":6026.35,"text":"什麼星札師兄感覺很正義"},{"start":6026.59,"end":6027.35,"text":"但是沒有想到現在"},{"start":6027.35,"end":6030.110000000001,"text":"反而變成是退休的港警"},{"start":6030.35,"end":6032.110000000001,"text":"成為了來台灣跨境"},{"start":6032.35,"end":6035.110000000001,"text":"跨國鎮壓的一個幫凶嗎"},{"start":6035.35,"end":6037.110000000001,"text":"那麼這一群人根據報導"},{"start":6037.35,"end":6039.110000000001,"text":"他在2024年"},{"start":6039.35,"end":6041.110000000001,"text":"在英國的一個"},{"start":6041.35,"end":6043.110000000001,"text":"這個有關於間諜"},{"start":6043.35,"end":6045.110000000001,"text":"以及這個滋擾事件"},{"start":6045.35,"end":6047.110000000001,"text":"也有他們的影子存在"},{"start":6047.35,"end":6048.110000000001,"text":"而這樣的一個"},{"start":6048.35,"end":6050.110000000001,"text":"所謂性鬼"},{"start":6050.81,"end":6052.570000000001,"text":"舉水軒的局"},{"start":6052.81,"end":6054.570000000001,"text":"局退休港警"},{"start":6054.81,"end":6056.570000000001,"text":"他夥同了中國籍的"},{"start":6057.36,"end":6058.12,"text":"這個通緝犯"},{"start":6058.36,"end":6060.12,"text":"來到台灣四次"},{"start":6060.36,"end":6063.12,"text":"然後這個所謂的鏈結網"},{"start":6063.36,"end":6065.12,"text":"從由他來委託這位"},{"start":6065.36,"end":6067.12,"text":"鄭姓的這個"},{"start":6069.41,"end":6070.17,"text":"在轉包給這個"},{"start":6070.41,"end":6071.17,"text":"我想大愛真性社"},{"start":6071.41,"end":6073.17,"text":"現在非常有名了"},{"start":6073.41,"end":6074.17,"text":"因為他在沈柏楊的"},{"start":6074.41,"end":6075.17,"text":"這個案子當中"},{"start":6075.41,"end":6077.17,"text":"他就被起訴了"},{"start":6077.41,"end":6079.17,"text":"所以我想要請問"},{"start":6079.41,"end":6080.17,"text":"先問一下內政部"},{"start":6080.41,"end":6081.17,"text":"跟怡凝署好了"},{"start":6081.41,"end":6084.17,"text":"有沒有注意到這個議長的"},{"start":6084.41,"end":6088.17,"text":"所謂現在連中國退休的"},{"start":6088.41,"end":6090.17,"text":"我不是要講中國還是香港"},{"start":6090.41,"end":6093.17,"text":"這種所謂警子警網"},{"start":6093.41,"end":6095.17,"text":"聽起來以為是要保護人民"},{"start":6095.41,"end":6097.17,"text":"結果是串聯台灣的黑幫"},{"start":6097.17,"end":6098.93,"text":"然後成為滋擾"},{"start":6099.17,"end":6101.93,"text":"或者是恫嚇監控台灣人"},{"start":6102.17,"end":6102.93,"text":"甚至於是我們的"},{"start":6103.17,"end":6104.93,"text":"國會議員的幫凶嗎"},{"start":6105.17,"end":6106.93,"text":"像這樣的人員進入"},{"start":6107.17,"end":6109.93,"text":"有沒有列為你們在"},{"start":6110.17,"end":6111.93,"text":"接下來鎖定的"},{"start":6112.17,"end":6113.93,"text":"這樣的目標當中"},{"start":6114.17,"end":6114.93,"text":"好 委員好"},{"start":6115.17,"end":6115.93,"text":"委員剛才所提的"},{"start":6116.17,"end":6116.93,"text":"我們都注意到了"},{"start":6117.17,"end":6117.93,"text":"而且這案件還在"},{"start":6118.17,"end":6119.93,"text":"偵查當中還在溯源"},{"start":6120.17,"end":6121.93,"text":"所以委員所提的"},{"start":6122.17,"end":6122.93,"text":"這個部分"},{"start":6123.17,"end":6124.93,"text":"我們仍然還在偵辦當中"},{"start":6125.17,"end":6126.93,"text":"所以請委員放心"},{"start":6127.17,"end":6127.93,"text":"委員所提的"},{"start":6128.17,"end":6128.93,"text":"我們大概都有注意到"},{"start":6129.17,"end":6130.93,"text":"不管是境外的"},{"start":6131.17,"end":6131.93,"text":"是不是有沒有他的"},{"start":6132.17,"end":6133.93,"text":"這一些之前他的"},{"start":6134.17,"end":6135.93,"text":"一些相關的背景"},{"start":6136.17,"end":6136.93,"text":"或者是配合在地"},{"start":6137.17,"end":6138.93,"text":"協力者的真性獵者"},{"start":6139.17,"end":6139.93,"text":"這個全部都是"},{"start":6140.17,"end":6140.93,"text":"在我們的掌控當中"},{"start":6141.17,"end":6141.93,"text":"而且這案件還在"},{"start":6142.17,"end":6142.93,"text":"溯源偵辦"},{"start":6143.17,"end":6143.93,"text":"也不便在這邊"},{"start":6144.17,"end":6144.93,"text":"做報告"},{"start":6145.17,"end":6147.93,"text":"所以我們當然是執行者"},{"start":6148.17,"end":6149.93,"text":"我們現在是逮到了"},{"start":6150.17,"end":6151.93,"text":"但是最重要還是幕後的"},{"start":6152.17,"end":6152.93,"text":"這一些的無影者"},{"start":6153.17,"end":6153.93,"text":"或者一些溯源"},{"start":6154.17,"end":6154.93,"text":"那這些案件"},{"start":6155.17,"end":6156.93,"text":"我們目前還在偵查當中"},{"start":6157.17,"end":6157.93,"text":"好沒有關係"},{"start":6158.17,"end":6158.93,"text":"案件的部分"},{"start":6159.17,"end":6159.93,"text":"我們不公開"},{"start":6160.17,"end":6160.93,"text":"但是我想要問"},{"start":6161.17,"end":6161.93,"text":"蔡局長的就是"},{"start":6162.17,"end":6163.93,"text":"所以會感受得到"},{"start":6164.17,"end":6164.93,"text":"其實被鎖定的"},{"start":6165.17,"end":6166.93,"text":"恐怕不只國會議員"},{"start":6167.17,"end":6168.93,"text":"包括這些所謂的"},{"start":6169.17,"end":6171.93,"text":"跨國的境外買凶"},{"start":6172.17,"end":6172.93,"text":"境內施暴"},{"start":6173.17,"end":6173.93,"text":"已經成為"},{"start":6174.17,"end":6176.93,"text":"中國影響台灣的選舉"},{"start":6177.17,"end":6178.93,"text":"甚至於恫嚇台灣人民"},{"start":6179.17,"end":6180.93,"text":"自由意志的表達"},{"start":6181.17,"end":6181.93,"text":"它已經變成是一個"},{"start":6182.17,"end":6183.93,"text":"有系統性的"},{"start":6184.17,"end":6185.93,"text":"這樣的一個滋擾行為"},{"start":6186.17,"end":6186.93,"text":"甚至於是"},{"start":6187.17,"end":6187.93,"text":"我們來看了"},{"start":6188.17,"end":6189.93,"text":"昨天大家都看到了"},{"start":6190.17,"end":6192.93,"text":"就是我們的表演工作者"},{"start":6193.17,"end":6195.93,"text":"黃毅豪他的這個案子起訴了"},{"start":6196.17,"end":6197.93,"text":"但是再往前推"},{"start":6198.17,"end":6198.93,"text":"還有石板明夫"},{"start":6199.17,"end":6199.93,"text":"以及剛剛我提到的"},{"start":6200.17,"end":6201.93,"text":"沈柏楊委員的狀況"},{"start":6202.17,"end":6202.93,"text":"所以這樣的所謂"},{"start":6203.17,"end":6203.93,"text":"境外發包"},{"start":6204.17,"end":6204.93,"text":"境內執行"},{"start":6205.17,"end":6205.93,"text":"大家已經都知道"},{"start":6206.17,"end":6207.93,"text":"這樣的一個所謂"},{"start":6208.17,"end":6208.93,"text":"鬥吼模式"},{"start":6209.17,"end":6209.93,"text":"或是滋擾模式"},{"start":6210.17,"end":6210.93,"text":"是存在的"},{"start":6211.17,"end":6212.93,"text":"但是因為時間有限"},{"start":6213.17,"end":6213.93,"text":"我想直接講就是"},{"start":6214.17,"end":6214.93,"text":"我們知道"},{"start":6215.17,"end":6216.93,"text":"像以黃毅豪來講"},{"start":6217.17,"end":6217.93,"text":"他的起訴"},{"start":6218.17,"end":6218.93,"text":"就是用所謂的"},{"start":6219.17,"end":6220.93,"text":"這種傷害罪"},{"start":6221.17,"end":6221.93,"text":"或是個資法"},{"start":6222.17,"end":6223.93,"text":"其實可能幾個月"},{"start":6224.17,"end":6224.93,"text":"多則一年"},{"start":6225.17,"end":6225.93,"text":"他就放出去了"},{"start":6226.17,"end":6227.93,"text":"甚至於如果你二審三審"},{"start":6228.17,"end":6229.93,"text":"搞不好到二審而已"},{"start":6230.17,"end":6230.93,"text":"他甚至於馬上"},{"start":6231.17,"end":6232.93,"text":"就有機會換下一批人"},{"start":6233.17,"end":6234.93,"text":"來進行這樣的滋擾行動"},{"start":6235.17,"end":6235.93,"text":"成為這個"},{"start":6236.17,"end":6237.93,"text":"內心的恐嚇跟恐懼"},{"start":6238.17,"end":6239.93,"text":"所以我比較想要問的是"},{"start":6240.17,"end":6241.93,"text":"目前以我們的法規"},{"start":6242.17,"end":6242.93,"text":"不論是反滲透法"},{"start":6243.17,"end":6243.93,"text":"或者是國安法"},{"start":6244.17,"end":6245.93,"text":"是不是有漏洞"},{"start":6245.93,"end":6247.6900000000005,"text":"以至於必須要用"},{"start":6247.93,"end":6249.6900000000005,"text":"所謂的傷害"},{"start":6249.93,"end":6251.6900000000005,"text":"或者是個資法"},{"start":6251.93,"end":6253.6900000000005,"text":"來做起訴"},{"start":6254.25,"end":6255.01,"text":"好 對"},{"start":6255.25,"end":6256.01,"text":"謝委員提問"},{"start":6256.25,"end":6257.01,"text":"因為中共跨國鎮壓"},{"start":6257.25,"end":6259.01,"text":"是對我們自由民主法治社會"},{"start":6259.25,"end":6260.01,"text":"底線的侵犯"},{"start":6260.25,"end":6262.01,"text":"那我們在處理上"},{"start":6262.25,"end":6263.01,"text":"一方面除了是個案"},{"start":6263.25,"end":6265.01,"text":"去進行一些調查"},{"start":6265.25,"end":6266.01,"text":"蒐證以外"},{"start":6266.25,"end":6268.01,"text":"另外我們很關注的"},{"start":6268.25,"end":6270.01,"text":"第二個重點是在於背後的"},{"start":6270.25,"end":6272.01,"text":"中共的這種協力的網絡"},{"start":6272.25,"end":6274.01,"text":"怎麼樣來瓦解它"},{"start":6274.25,"end":6276.01,"text":"這才是我們關切的重點"},{"start":6276.25,"end":6277.01,"text":"也是剛剛委員在"},{"start":6277.25,"end":6279.01,"text":"詢問的一個主要的重點"},{"start":6279.25,"end":6280.01,"text":"這個部分"},{"start":6280.25,"end":6281.01,"text":"我們大概在"},{"start":6281.25,"end":6282.01,"text":"處理過程當中"},{"start":6282.25,"end":6283.01,"text":"會針對這些"},{"start":6283.01,"end":6284.77,"text":"這些特定的協力者"},{"start":6285.01,"end":6285.77,"text":"以目前來講"},{"start":6286.01,"end":6286.77,"text":"很多都是幫派"},{"start":6287.01,"end":6287.77,"text":"特定的幫派"},{"start":6288.01,"end":6288.77,"text":"我們都有掌握"},{"start":6289.01,"end":6290.77,"text":"已經有跟警政署討論"},{"start":6291.01,"end":6291.77,"text":"我們會啟動"},{"start":6292.01,"end":6293.77,"text":"必要的一個掃蕩"},{"start":6294.01,"end":6295.77,"text":"來達到市警跟嚇阻的效果"},{"start":6296.01,"end":6298.77,"text":"來遏止這種跨境增壓的活動"},{"start":6299.01,"end":6299.77,"text":"第三個是"},{"start":6300.01,"end":6300.77,"text":"委員有提到修法的部分"},{"start":6301.01,"end":6301.77,"text":"這個我們認為"},{"start":6302.01,"end":6302.77,"text":"確實是有必要"},{"start":6303.01,"end":6303.77,"text":"來做一些檢討"},{"start":6304.01,"end":6304.77,"text":"目前能夠用到的法規"},{"start":6305.01,"end":6306.77,"text":"大概就是刑法的傷害罪"},{"start":6307.01,"end":6307.77,"text":"或重傷害未遂"},{"start":6308.01,"end":6308.77,"text":"或是個資法"},{"start":6309.01,"end":6309.77,"text":"或是組織犯罪"},{"start":6310.01,"end":6311.77,"text":"怎麼樣有一個比較專責的法律"},{"start":6311.77,"end":6313.530000000001,"text":"特別目前的反滲透法"},{"start":6313.77,"end":6314.530000000001,"text":"主要是針對"},{"start":6314.77,"end":6316.530000000001,"text":"竊選非法集會"},{"start":6316.77,"end":6317.530000000001,"text":"還有非法的這些"},{"start":6317.77,"end":6318.530000000001,"text":"關所有稅"},{"start":6318.77,"end":6319.530000000001,"text":"那怎麼樣來針對"},{"start":6319.77,"end":6320.530000000001,"text":"跨國增壓"},{"start":6320.77,"end":6322.530000000001,"text":"脅迫的這些行為"},{"start":6322.77,"end":6324.530000000001,"text":"列入到我們的法律裡面"},{"start":6324.77,"end":6325.530000000001,"text":"那我們覺得這樣的"},{"start":6325.77,"end":6326.530000000001,"text":"修法的討論是有必要的"},{"start":6326.77,"end":6327.530000000001,"text":"那國安局"},{"start":6327.77,"end":6329.530000000001,"text":"基於健全我們的國安法"},{"start":6329.77,"end":6330.530000000001,"text":"我們站在支持的立場"},{"start":6330.77,"end":6331.530000000001,"text":"好 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{"start":8102.58,"end":8103.34,"text":"因為海底電纜破壞"},{"start":8103.58,"end":8105.34,"text":"有沒有開始談這個執法的機制"},{"start":8105.58,"end":8106.34,"text":"這個法律樹追的機制"},{"start":8106.58,"end":8109.34,"text":"我們談的話都是所有的海巡"},{"start":8109.58,"end":8110.34,"text":"所有的整體"},{"start":8110.58,"end":8111.34,"text":"有沒有開始談了"},{"start":8111.58,"end":8112.34,"text":"我們是談"},{"start":8112.58,"end":8113.34,"text":"包括海域執法"},{"start":8113.58,"end":8115.34,"text":"包括人道救援"},{"start":8115.58,"end":8116.34,"text":"已經開始談了"},{"start":8116.34,"end":8118.1,"text":"是整體的"},{"start":8118.34,"end":8119.1,"text":"是整體的"},{"start":8119.34,"end":8120.1,"text":"整體的談"},{"start":8120.34,"end":8121.1,"text":"這個包在裡面嗎"},{"start":8121.34,"end":8122.1,"text":"我們不能現在"},{"start":8122.34,"end":8124.1,"text":"不能明講說哪一項目"},{"start":8124.34,"end":8125.1,"text":"是"},{"start":8125.34,"end":8126.1,"text":"我們是整體的"},{"start":8126.34,"end":8128.1,"text":"都有在規劃做進一步的交流"},{"start":8128.34,"end":8130.1,"text":"他在美國都講說有這兩個"},{"start":8130.34,"end":8132.1,"text":"但是我覺得這是好的"},{"start":8132.34,"end":8133.1,"text":"鄰國之間本來就要守望相助"},{"start":8133.34,"end":8135.1,"text":"有惡霸欺負我們的社區"},{"start":8135.34,"end":8136.1,"text":"守望相助"},{"start":8136.34,"end":8138.1,"text":"是最起碼的基本款"},{"start":8138.34,"end":8139.1,"text":"好 謝謝署長"},{"start":8139.34,"end":8140.1,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":8140.03,"end":8140.79,"text":"謝謝王定宇委員"},{"start":8141.03,"end":8141.79,"text":"我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":8142.03,"end":8142.79,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8178.47,"end":8179.47,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8182.27,"end":8183.27,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8193.96,"end":8194.96,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8195.94,"end":8197.94,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8202.01,"end":8204.01,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8206.94,"end":8207.94,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8207.93,"end":8208.93,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8215.93,"end":8217.93,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8218.79,"end":8219.79,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8252.27,"end":8254.27,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8268.13,"end":8269.13,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8271.01,"end":8273.01,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8294.94,"end":8295.94,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8295.94,"end":8296.94,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8296.93,"end":8297.93,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8323.93,"end":8325.69,"text":"邱局長告訴我"},{"start":8351.96,"end":8353.46,"text":"整個會不會op runt"},{"start":8444.56,"end":8449.1,"text":"好,我們繼續開會,請王安祥委員諮詢"},{"start":8456.72,"end":8458.72,"text":"好,感謝主席,有請蔡局長"},{"start":8458.72,"end":8459.72,"text":"請蔡局長"},{"start":8466.11,"end":8468.11,"text":"好,謝謝主席,王委員早"},{"start":8468.11,"end":8473.11,"text":"局長早,其實剛剛前面很多委員都在問跨境鎮壓的事情"},{"start":8473.11,"end":8477.11,"text":"那這個今天早上我看到局長也有回應媒體"},{"start":8477.11,"end":8481.11,"text":"局長是說是不是可以用反滲透來做修法"},{"start":8481.11,"end":8484.11,"text":"不過反滲透多半都是以竊選為主"},{"start":8484.11,"end":8487.11,"text":"對,竊選還有非法集會遊行或觀索"},{"start":8487.11,"end":8492.11,"text":"所以也有一些團體他在倡議反跨境鎮壓法"},{"start":8492.11,"end":8495.11,"text":"那剛剛那個局長也說好像院這邊有在研議"},{"start":8495.11,"end":8497.11,"text":"有,有在召回"},{"start":8497.11,"end":8499.11,"text":"那他那個要件上,局長,你們大概有什麼樣的想像"},{"start":8499.11,"end":8501.11,"text":"就是怎麼樣成立的要件大概是怎樣"},{"start":8501.11,"end":8506.11,"text":"目前還在討論,那現在主要是當然有一些傷害罪已經有既有的刑法"},{"start":8506.11,"end":8510.11,"text":"那現在主要是這些傷害的行為,他是接受境外的指示或資助的話"},{"start":8510.11,"end":8512.11,"text":"那這樣的行為應該要加重"},{"start":8512.11,"end":8517.11,"text":"那像委員講的,到底要透過專法,還是透過現有的反滲透法"},{"start":8517.11,"end":8521.11,"text":"來加強相關的條文,那這個部分行政院有在召回研議"},{"start":8521.11,"end":8525.11,"text":"是,剛剛前面很多委員也在關心這個事情"},{"start":8525.11,"end":8528.11,"text":"希望很快可以看到這個願板的出現"},{"start":8528.11,"end":8532.11,"text":"那接下來我大概就要是,就你們的報告上"},{"start":8532.11,"end":8537.11,"text":"其實對你們的未來工作上有一項就是要優化對中勤資的作為"},{"start":8537.11,"end":8542.11,"text":"對,勤收的作為,然後擴建內密情緒的一個管道"},{"start":8542.11,"end":8547.11,"text":"那所以現在馬上,中共那個20屆的五中全會就要召開"},{"start":8547.11,"end":8555.11,"text":"那通常他都,他通常這個全會,基本上中聯會都是要做這個所謂的五年內的一些計畫"},{"start":8555.11,"end":8562.11,"text":"他這次很奇怪,他基本上是,他講了一個持之以恆,推進重研治黨"},{"start":8562.11,"end":8563.11,"text":"對,對,對,非常特別"},{"start":8563.11,"end":8566.11,"text":"這個是不是這個局長跟我們說一下,你們大概知道的一個狀況"},{"start":8566.11,"end":8571.11,"text":"那五中全會因為是在為明年21大鋪陳,所以我們有高度的關注"},{"start":8571.11,"end":8576.11,"text":"照理來講,五中全會就歷來來講的話,應該要聚焦在經濟議題"},{"start":8576.11,"end":8581.11,"text":"但事實上因為四中全會已經處理了經濟議題,針對十五規劃有了完整的討論"},{"start":8581.11,"end":8585.11,"text":"所以就像委員講的,五中全會應該會比較聚焦在政治的部分"},{"start":8585.11,"end":8588.11,"text":"那政治部分大概有幾個重點,跟委員報告說明一下"},{"start":8588.11,"end":8593.11,"text":"第一個部分可能會針對習思想跟習路線來提高他的政治的定位"},{"start":8593.11,"end":8598.11,"text":"那第二部分是委員所提到的推動黨建,也就是重研治黨"},{"start":8598.11,"end":8606.11,"text":"那重研治黨他會比較著重在是包括反腐的鬥爭,還有相關的政治的這種監控"},{"start":8606.11,"end":8610.11,"text":"那來確保絕對的效忠,這大概第二重點"},{"start":8610.11,"end":8613.11,"text":"那第三個重點可能是在人事的調整"},{"start":8613.11,"end":8618.11,"text":"那因為至少在這次五中全會要針對之前有八位的中央委員"},{"start":8618.11,"end":8621.11,"text":"還有三位的候補中央委員被雙開"},{"start":8621.11,"end":8624.11,"text":"那五中全會必須要利用這個機制把這些確認下來"},{"start":8624.11,"end":8626.11,"text":"那還要再開除40個人"},{"start":8626.11,"end":8631.11,"text":"對,這部分可能再看他在五中全會針對中央委員的部分"},{"start":8631.11,"end":8635.11,"text":"有沒有再做一些逮捕,這大概也是這次全會的重點"},{"start":8635.11,"end":8641.11,"text":"重慶市的前市長黃其帆好像很特別這一次,很多人都在討論他的部分"},{"start":8641.11,"end":8645.11,"text":"但經濟上的很多政策跟他們的當局好像不大一致"},{"start":8645.11,"end":8647.11,"text":"這是不是一個什麼樣的指標"},{"start":8647.11,"end":8649.11,"text":"有,這階段剛剛有跟委員提到"},{"start":8649.11,"end":8653.11,"text":"有可能在人事審查過程當中"},{"start":8653.11,"end":8657.11,"text":"可能政治的立場這部分"},{"start":8657.11,"end":8659.11,"text":"以及有沒有貪色斧的部分"},{"start":8659.11,"end":8662.11,"text":"或是他們在做人事布局的一個考量"},{"start":8662.11,"end":8665.11,"text":"那不過還是要看一下年底跟明年中,中間的中"},{"start":8665.11,"end":8667.11,"text":"還有一些地方換屆"},{"start":8667.11,"end":8670.11,"text":"那那一批的官員也是我們在觀察"},{"start":8670.11,"end":8674.11,"text":"後續會不會進入到比較政治核心的一個觀察重點"},{"start":8674.11,"end":8678.11,"text":"是,好,那另外一個就是我一直很這個關注一些軟體"},{"start":8678.11,"end":8681.11,"text":"就數位的一個國土的防護"},{"start":8681.11,"end":8684.11,"text":"那這個美國他在20號的時候"},{"start":8684.11,"end":8686.11,"text":"他有宣布一個就是全面禁止"},{"start":8686.11,"end":8689.11,"text":"D-SIMC及其相關的關係企業的產品"},{"start":8689.11,"end":8693.11,"text":"而且基於D-SIMC實作開發第三方產品跟服務"},{"start":8693.11,"end":8696.11,"text":"所以他似乎有擴大他的這個整個範圍"},{"start":8696.11,"end":8699.11,"text":"那我們現在基本上是對那個軟體"},{"start":8699.11,"end":8702.11,"text":"我不曉得對他衍生的一些東西"},{"start":8702.11,"end":8704.11,"text":"不曉得現在國安局的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":8704.11,"end":8710.11,"text":"好,這部分大概我自己本人是在2023年的大概7月左右"},{"start":8710.11,"end":8712.11,"text":"針對我們局內本局裡面"},{"start":8712.11,"end":8714.11,"text":"我只能管理我本局"},{"start":8714.11,"end":8717.11,"text":"針對我們本局裡面在運用AI工具跟技術"},{"start":8717.11,"end":8719.11,"text":"我們做一些必要的規範"},{"start":8719.11,"end":8721.11,"text":"那另外在運用AI上"},{"start":8721.11,"end":8724.11,"text":"我們有分一般的市面上的商規版"},{"start":8724.11,"end":8729.11,"text":"以及我們自己局內內建的內建版AI系統的使用"},{"start":8729.11,"end":8733.11,"text":"那針對不同議題使用不同的系統來做處理"},{"start":8733.11,"end":8735.11,"text":"因為我上次質詢的時候就有問過"},{"start":8735.11,"end":8737.11,"text":"許長很多的產品"},{"start":8737.11,"end":8739.11,"text":"因為現在有些是速發不在夜館"},{"start":8739.11,"end":8741.11,"text":"我的意思就是說"},{"start":8741.11,"end":8744.11,"text":"我們應該不是只禁止他的一些軟體的使用"},{"start":8744.11,"end":8747.11,"text":"而是說他軟體衍生出來的一些資料或什麼"},{"start":8747.11,"end":8750.11,"text":"不曉得局長有沒有什麼更好的一些想法"},{"start":8750.11,"end":8752.11,"text":"在國安的部分"},{"start":8752.11,"end":8754.11,"text":"當然AI工具的運用"},{"start":8754.11,"end":8756.11,"text":"它有帶來便利性"},{"start":8756.11,"end":8757.11,"text":"也有帶來一些問題"},{"start":8757.11,"end":8761.11,"text":"那便利性是AI的運用可以讓我們在做情收眼的部分"},{"start":8761.11,"end":8762.11,"text":"可以更有效能"},{"start":8762.11,"end":8764.11,"text":"我們甚至可以用AI來懲治報告"},{"start":8764.11,"end":8768.11,"text":"符合到人工鑽寫報告的那種標準"},{"start":8768.11,"end":8773.11,"text":"那另外對於一些重要的情資影像大數據的分析"},{"start":8773.11,"end":8775.11,"text":"AI也讓我們提升很大的效能"},{"start":8775.11,"end":8778.11,"text":"那另外在網路正義訊息的查找上"},{"start":8778.11,"end":8782.11,"text":"那個節省的提升的效能是無法想像的"},{"start":8782.11,"end":8784.11,"text":"但是它也帶來一些風險"},{"start":8784.11,"end":8787.11,"text":"也就是我們的對手也會運用AI"},{"start":8787.11,"end":8788.11,"text":"會有一些錯誤的資訊"},{"start":8788.11,"end":8789.11,"text":"我指的就是這一部分"},{"start":8789.11,"end":8790.11,"text":"是是所以我們這部分也是"},{"start":8790.11,"end":8791.11,"text":"希望這邊好"},{"start":8791.11,"end":8792.11,"text":"局長這邊好"},{"start":8792.11,"end":8793.11,"text":"也可以做一些研議"},{"start":8793.11,"end":8796.11,"text":"最後當然就是我還是很關心"},{"start":8796.11,"end":8798.11,"text":"現在大家都在講人事公務員的部分"},{"start":8798.11,"end":8801.11,"text":"因為我看到國安局在真人"},{"start":8801.11,"end":8802.11,"text":"尤其是電子組"},{"start":8802.11,"end":8803.11,"text":"我剛說的那個部分"},{"start":8803.11,"end":8805.11,"text":"好像每次都沒有招滿"},{"start":8805.11,"end":8808.11,"text":"那不曉得局長有沒有什麼好的方法"},{"start":8808.11,"end":8809.11,"text":"更好的誘因"},{"start":8809.11,"end":8811.11,"text":"讓大家現在年輕人願意去"},{"start":8811.11,"end":8813.11,"text":"去這個報考國安局這邊"},{"start":8813.11,"end":8816.11,"text":"國安局的中路管道一來當然就是國安特卡"},{"start":8816.11,"end":8819.11,"text":"一般文職學校的年輕同仁"},{"start":8819.11,"end":8820.11,"text":"來加入我們行列"},{"start":8820.11,"end":8823.11,"text":"一部分就是軍中的徵才"},{"start":8823.11,"end":8825.11,"text":"那另外一部分我已經所提到的"},{"start":8825.11,"end":8829.11,"text":"有包括我們基層的情特隊士兵"},{"start":8829.11,"end":8831.11,"text":"士兵負責營區安全這一部分的招募"},{"start":8831.11,"end":8835.11,"text":"目前近年看下來招募的額度"},{"start":8835.11,"end":8838.11,"text":"都還有符合我們的需要的那個比例"},{"start":8838.11,"end":8839.11,"text":"都還好目前還好"},{"start":8839.11,"end":8841.11,"text":"對因為大家現在都很多"},{"start":8841.11,"end":8842.11,"text":"年輕人不會到過部門來"},{"start":8842.11,"end":8844.11,"text":"希望國安局為了要招募好的人"},{"start":8844.11,"end":8846.11,"text":"而且我們現在非常險峻"},{"start":8846.11,"end":8849.11,"text":"希望這個局長這邊會有一些更好的招募方法"},{"start":8849.11,"end":8850.11,"text":"謝謝我們有再改進"},{"start":8850.11,"end":8851.11,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8852.31,"end":8855.31,"text":"好謝謝王安祥委員的執行"},{"start":8855.31,"end":8857.31,"text":"接下來請徐巧欣委員執行"},{"start":8865.49,"end":8866.49,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":8866.49,"end":8869.49,"text":"那我們是不是能夠請國安局局長蔡局長"},{"start":8869.49,"end":8870.49,"text":"蔡局長"},{"start":8875.36,"end":8876.36,"text":"好 徐委員早"},{"start":8876.36,"end":8877.36,"text":"局長好"},{"start":8877.36,"end":8880.36,"text":"那我想今天首先要談一個"},{"start":8880.36,"end":8882.36,"text":"大家都非常關心的這個議題"},{"start":8882.36,"end":8885.36,"text":"也就是台灣的脫口秀的知名委員"},{"start":8885.36,"end":8886.36,"text":"黃毅豪先生"},{"start":8886.36,"end":8891.36,"text":"那受到這樣的一個所謂跨境鎮壓"},{"start":8891.36,"end":8895.36,"text":"那無論如何他是受到了很多的傷害"},{"start":8895.36,"end":8896.36,"text":"的這個案子"},{"start":8896.36,"end":8900.36,"text":"那我想在這裡我們也要表達非常清楚的態度"},{"start":8900.36,"end":8903.36,"text":"也就是對內在國內"},{"start":8903.36,"end":8905.36,"text":"我們可能對於很多的議題"},{"start":8905.36,"end":8906.36,"text":"會有不同的看法"},{"start":8906.36,"end":8909.36,"text":"政黨傾向不同會有交鋒"},{"start":8909.36,"end":8912.36,"text":"但是對外守護台灣人民的安全"},{"start":8912.36,"end":8913.36,"text":"對於暴力零容忍"},{"start":8913.36,"end":8915.36,"text":"這是我們一致的"},{"start":8915.36,"end":8918.36,"text":"而且這是一個最最最基本的底線"},{"start":8918.36,"end":8919.36,"text":"所以在這裡呢"},{"start":8919.36,"end":8923.36,"text":"也要請我們的國安局針對這個案子"},{"start":8923.36,"end":8928.36,"text":"以及相關其他可能跟潛在風險的案例"},{"start":8928.36,"end":8930.36,"text":"那能夠積極的來查辦"},{"start":8930.36,"end":8931.36,"text":"給予最多的訊息"},{"start":8931.36,"end":8933.36,"text":"因為我們從過往的例子可以看到"},{"start":8933.36,"end":8936.36,"text":"有的時候警察系統"},{"start":8936.36,"end":8937.36,"text":"他從警察的方向去辦案"},{"start":8937.36,"end":8940.36,"text":"他不一定能夠掌握到該事件"},{"start":8940.36,"end":8942.36,"text":"背後有的國安風險"},{"start":8942.36,"end":8946.36,"text":"他必須要由我們的國安機構提供確切的訊息之後"},{"start":8946.36,"end":8949.36,"text":"雙方結合在一起才可以查出真相"},{"start":8949.36,"end":8952.36,"text":"所以在這邊想要先請我們局長可以說明一下"},{"start":8952.36,"end":8956.36,"text":"那從最近幾起的案件發生到接下來"},{"start":8956.36,"end":8959.36,"text":"我覺得未來可能都還會有類似的情況"},{"start":8959.36,"end":8961.36,"text":"我們有什麼要積極的處置辦法"},{"start":8961.36,"end":8963.36,"text":"能夠加快相關的速度"},{"start":8963.36,"end":8967.36,"text":"跟我們警察相關的這個警察局相關的機構"},{"start":8967.36,"end":8969.36,"text":"能夠共同辦案共同合作"},{"start":8969.36,"end":8972.36,"text":"力求很多的案件在最短的時間內"},{"start":8972.36,"end":8975.36,"text":"就讓我們國人知道哪一些案件"},{"start":8975.36,"end":8977.36,"text":"他其實可能不只是單純的暴力"},{"start":8977.36,"end":8980.36,"text":"這個暴力之外還涉及到國安風險"},{"start":8980.36,"end":8982.36,"text":"好謝謝薛委員的關心"},{"start":8982.36,"end":8985.36,"text":"那因為這種跨境鎮壓確實像委員所提到的"},{"start":8985.36,"end":8988.36,"text":"那已經侵犯到我們台灣民主自由社會的"},{"start":8988.36,"end":8990.36,"text":"基本的底線"},{"start":8990.36,"end":8991.36,"text":"那民眾都有言論自由"},{"start":8991.36,"end":8993.36,"text":"不應該批評特定的境外人士"},{"start":8993.36,"end":8995.36,"text":"就在境內我們的國境之內"},{"start":8995.36,"end":8997.36,"text":"遭到相關的武力的脅迫"},{"start":8997.36,"end":8999.36,"text":"那另外第二個部分是"},{"start":8999.36,"end":9001.36,"text":"我們在處理上大概分兩個層次"},{"start":9001.36,"end":9003.36,"text":"一個部分是委員剛所關心提到的"},{"start":9003.36,"end":9005.36,"text":"針對個案的查查的部分"},{"start":9005.36,"end":9008.36,"text":"那確實我們國內不管調查局或警政署"},{"start":9008.36,"end":9011.36,"text":"對於國內的這些可能的幫派份子的活動"},{"start":9011.36,"end":9013.36,"text":"還有背景脈絡都有明確的掌握"},{"start":9013.36,"end":9016.36,"text":"但是比較缺乏的就是跟境外"},{"start":9016.36,"end":9018.36,"text":"這種國安層次的連結"},{"start":9018.36,"end":9021.36,"text":"所以委員所剛剛所提到的這個特定的案例"},{"start":9021.36,"end":9022.36,"text":"老實跟我們報告"},{"start":9022.36,"end":9026.36,"text":"一開始我們就跟警政署這邊建立非常密切的聯繫"},{"start":9026.36,"end":9027.36,"text":"有兩個重點"},{"start":9027.36,"end":9031.36,"text":"我們針對當事人有提供加強的人身安全的維護"},{"start":9031.36,"end":9033.36,"text":"包括他要演出的場次"},{"start":9033.36,"end":9035.36,"text":"下半年幾乎全部都列出來"},{"start":9035.36,"end":9037.36,"text":"那也會加強部署保護他的人身安全"},{"start":9037.36,"end":9040.36,"text":"不要讓這種暴力侵犯得逞"},{"start":9040.36,"end":9043.36,"text":"因為他在去年就已經被潑漆潑糞恐嚇了"},{"start":9043.36,"end":9045.36,"text":"那這是案例的部分"},{"start":9045.36,"end":9049.36,"text":"那第二部分是我們有特別在注意的是整體的態樣"},{"start":9049.36,"end":9053.36,"text":"那因為目前協力的在地人士大概都有黑幫背景"},{"start":9053.36,"end":9056.36,"text":"或是跟黑幫有關係的徵信社"},{"start":9056.36,"end":9058.36,"text":"所以這部分我們有掌握名單"},{"start":9058.36,"end":9059.36,"text":"那也跟警政署討論過"},{"start":9059.36,"end":9067.36,"text":"我們希望能夠來壓制這些黑幫去協力境外的這種跨國鎮壓的這種風氣"},{"start":9067.36,"end":9071.36,"text":"所以我們會進行必要的一些掃蕩來警示黑幫"},{"start":9071.36,"end":9073.36,"text":"讓他們知道一旦涉入這樣的案件的話"},{"start":9073.36,"end":9077.36,"text":"可能會遭到非常嚴厲的法律的懲處"},{"start":9077.36,"end":9079.36,"text":"那另外徵信社的部分"},{"start":9079.36,"end":9083.36,"text":"那警政署這邊大概在幾個月前也召集全國的徵信社來告警他們"},{"start":9083.36,"end":9089.36,"text":"一旦你不管是有意或無意的去協助境外人士來進行這種境內國內的鎮壓的話"},{"start":9089.36,"end":9091.36,"text":"他可能法律風險是什麼"},{"start":9091.36,"end":9096.36,"text":"那所以我們希望透過個案的查查以及整體的這些案況"},{"start":9096.36,"end":9098.36,"text":"跟警方的密切的聯繫合作"},{"start":9098.36,"end":9103.36,"text":"能夠避免黑幫或是跟黑幫協力的徵信社投入這樣的案件"},{"start":9103.36,"end":9105.36,"text":"達到一個遏制的效果"},{"start":9105.36,"end":9107.36,"text":"好那所以我們把它分成幾個階段"},{"start":9107.36,"end":9114.36,"text":"第一個是事情發生之前的整體的搜查調查跟我們的掌握"},{"start":9114.36,"end":9118.36,"text":"然後如果真的有發生這樣的事情的時候"},{"start":9118.36,"end":9124.36,"text":"第一時間我們的調查溝通以及對於相關人士的保護"},{"start":9124.36,"end":9126.36,"text":"那第三階段就是說呢"},{"start":9126.36,"end":9132.36,"text":"我們相關的法律可以對於這些犯法暴力的集團跟分子"},{"start":9132.36,"end":9135.36,"text":"那提出非常嚴厲的包含是刑責"},{"start":9135.36,"end":9139.36,"text":"讓他們知道他們做這件事情是不對的而且要付出代價"},{"start":9139.36,"end":9141.36,"text":"我覺得分成這三個層面"},{"start":9141.36,"end":9144.36,"text":"那所以呢在這裡也表達我個人的立場就是說"},{"start":9144.36,"end":9148.36,"text":"如果對於跨境鎮壓的相關的刑責要提高的話"},{"start":9148.36,"end":9150.36,"text":"我是絕對贊成的"},{"start":9150.36,"end":9153.36,"text":"因為台灣社會不管你是境外還是境內"},{"start":9153.36,"end":9158.36,"text":"我們本來就不容許任何傷害他人言論自由以及暴力的行為"},{"start":9158.36,"end":9165.36,"text":"那如果是來自境外勢力要對於台灣的人民造成更多所謂暴力的傷害的話"},{"start":9165.36,"end":9169.36,"text":"那本來我們國家就有必要有法律來進行制裁"},{"start":9169.36,"end":9172.36,"text":"讓他們知道做這些事情要付出代價"},{"start":9172.36,"end":9178.36,"text":"也讓所謂在地協力者或說協助境外勢力來進行暴力的這些人"},{"start":9178.36,"end":9181.36,"text":"他們知道這件事情是絕對不可以做的"},{"start":9182.36,"end":9184.36,"text":"我們對於暴力是零容忍的"},{"start":9184.36,"end":9186.36,"text":"那所以要拜託我們局長"},{"start":9186.36,"end":9189.36,"text":"接下來關於相關人士的人身安全等等的"},{"start":9189.36,"end":9191.36,"text":"包含我們的警察局"},{"start":9191.36,"end":9194.36,"text":"那都可以更密切的來注意來保護他們"},{"start":9194.36,"end":9196.36,"text":"那在這裡表達我們的立場"},{"start":9196.36,"end":9199.36,"text":"那最後一點點時間我想要問一下有關於這個"},{"start":9199.36,"end":9202.36,"text":"因為先前那個外交部的資安出漏洞嘛"},{"start":9202.36,"end":9204.36,"text":"然後有看到這個大陸的原始碼"},{"start":9204.36,"end":9207.36,"text":"那檢調也搜索十處約談十個人"},{"start":9207.36,"end":9209.36,"text":"我想要問一下相關細節我就不贅述"},{"start":9209.36,"end":9214.36,"text":"我們國安單位怎麼樣去提供這些對於資安防護的要求"},{"start":9214.36,"end":9217.36,"text":"或者是說你的這種ranking的等級"},{"start":9217.36,"end":9219.36,"text":"能夠給我們相關的部會"},{"start":9219.36,"end":9223.36,"text":"因為這個事情出了漏洞當然是外交部他們要負責"},{"start":9223.36,"end":9225.36,"text":"可是我覺得我們國安單位"},{"start":9225.36,"end":9228.36,"text":"我們做這種資訊的提供跟這種防範的話"},{"start":9228.36,"end":9231.36,"text":"要提高我們各部會的資安的意識"},{"start":9231.36,"end":9233.36,"text":"因為這個很重要"},{"start":9233.36,"end":9234.36,"text":"因為不然我只處理外交部的事"},{"start":9234.36,"end":9235.36,"text":"我本來每天交同類"},{"start":9235.36,"end":9237.36,"text":"我就覺得無所謂我就做了"},{"start":9237.36,"end":9240.36,"text":"那怎麼樣讓這些我們的不同的部會"},{"start":9240.36,"end":9243.36,"text":"都知道他們平常日常在做的事情的資安風險"},{"start":9243.36,"end":9245.36,"text":"要如何評估"},{"start":9245.36,"end":9248.36,"text":"因為時間的關係是不是可以請局長簡短幫我們回覆一下"},{"start":9248.36,"end":9250.36,"text":"就是那個因為這案子檢調已經在調查"},{"start":9250.36,"end":9251.36,"text":"我就不談個案"},{"start":9251.36,"end":9252.36,"text":"對不談個案"},{"start":9252.36,"end":9253.36,"text":"那我講的沒有錯啦"},{"start":9253.36,"end":9255.36,"text":"就國安局來講保密通訊安全是我們的責任"},{"start":9255.36,"end":9259.36,"text":"那各部會當然有它的相關的資安的系統"},{"start":9259.36,"end":9260.36,"text":"自己做資安的檢測"},{"start":9260.36,"end":9264.36,"text":"但是外館因為它很有可能傳輸的是重要機密的資訊"},{"start":9264.36,"end":9268.36,"text":"所以國安局這邊會幫外館在另外建置保密通聯的系統"},{"start":9268.36,"end":9269.36,"text":"那也希望外交部"},{"start":9269.36,"end":9270.36,"text":"是已經建置了"},{"start":9270.36,"end":9271.36,"text":"已經建置了"},{"start":9271.36,"end":9272.36,"text":"那已經建置了"},{"start":9272.36,"end":9275.36,"text":"那他們就是說這次的這個漏不談個案"},{"start":9275.36,"end":9278.36,"text":"但是這次漏洞是屬於你剛剛講的這個規劃的方向"},{"start":9278.36,"end":9279.36,"text":"還是說是另外的"},{"start":9279.36,"end":9283.36,"text":"另外的也就是說外館它都會有它自己的資訊通訊的"},{"start":9283.36,"end":9284.36,"text":"包括email"},{"start":9284.36,"end":9287.36,"text":"因為你要跟外國友方聯絡"},{"start":9287.36,"end":9288.36,"text":"它就是用一般的email"},{"start":9288.36,"end":9292.36,"text":"那但是我們對於外館要報回國內的重要的情資"},{"start":9292.36,"end":9295.36,"text":"我們是有我們的保密通訊的管道"},{"start":9295.36,"end":9297.36,"text":"那我們國內自己的資安的部分"},{"start":9297.36,"end":9300.36,"text":"怎麼樣去協助這些部會去取得"},{"start":9300.36,"end":9302.36,"text":"或是選擇一個比較合適跟安全的"},{"start":9302.36,"end":9303.36,"text":"對"},{"start":9303.36,"end":9305.36,"text":"因為我們也不希望說今天外交部"},{"start":9305.36,"end":9306.36,"text":"那明天其他的部會"},{"start":9306.36,"end":9307.36,"text":"是一個一個的"},{"start":9307.36,"end":9309.36,"text":"其實這不只是資安漏洞"},{"start":9309.36,"end":9310.36,"text":"或許它所傳輸的"},{"start":9310.36,"end":9312.36,"text":"不像我們剛剛講的外館這麼的機密"},{"start":9312.36,"end":9316.36,"text":"但是這給國人一個很不好的一個傳遞的印象"},{"start":9316.36,"end":9318.36,"text":"對這大概分兩個部分"},{"start":9318.36,"end":9321.36,"text":"一個部分是蘇發部的資安署"},{"start":9321.36,"end":9324.36,"text":"那對於全國各個政府機關"},{"start":9324.36,"end":9326.36,"text":"或是重要的資安事件"},{"start":9326.36,"end":9327.36,"text":"都有一個通報機制"},{"start":9327.36,"end":9328.36,"text":"那有的話"},{"start":9328.36,"end":9329.36,"text":"那大概資安署這邊"},{"start":9329.36,"end":9331.36,"text":"就會有人力來進入"},{"start":9331.36,"end":9333.36,"text":"做必要的資安的查查"},{"start":9333.36,"end":9335.36,"text":"那假如涉及到犯罪的部分"},{"start":9335.36,"end":9338.36,"text":"也會請調查局來進行協查"},{"start":9338.36,"end":9339.36,"text":"所以從案例的部分"},{"start":9339.36,"end":9343.36,"text":"我們希望能夠讓各部會更了解到資安的重要性"},{"start":9343.36,"end":9345.36,"text":"那第二的層面就是"},{"start":9345.36,"end":9348.36,"text":"比較全面的資安的見解"},{"start":9348.36,"end":9351.36,"text":"那讓各部會能夠協同到"},{"start":9351.36,"end":9354.36,"text":"我們的資安署的相關的見解的那些規劃"},{"start":9354.36,"end":9357.36,"text":"來讓各部會的資安環境能夠更健全"},{"start":9357.36,"end":9360.36,"text":"所以大概可以從這兩個部分來持續的強化"},{"start":9360.36,"end":9362.36,"text":"好那其實這是非常重要的"},{"start":9362.36,"end":9365.36,"text":"也希望國安局可以持續協助各部會"},{"start":9365.36,"end":9367.36,"text":"去提升大家的資安等級"},{"start":9367.36,"end":9369.36,"text":"跟降低相關的風險好不好"},{"start":9369.36,"end":9370.36,"text":"請繼續努力"},{"start":9370.36,"end":9371.36,"text":"好謝謝學委"},{"start":9372.38,"end":9375.38,"text":"徐曉欣委員接下來我們請郭育瑾委員質詢"},{"start":9385.76,"end":9387.76,"text":"好謝謝主席有請局長"},{"start":9387.76,"end":9388.76,"text":"請蔡局長"},{"start":9395.03,"end":9396.03,"text":"好郭委員好"},{"start":9396.03,"end":9397.03,"text":"好局長早安"},{"start":9397.03,"end":9400.03,"text":"我想昨天的這一起這個新北"},{"start":9400.03,"end":9403.03,"text":"那意見組起訴了這件案子"},{"start":9403.03,"end":9404.03,"text":"其實令人毛骨悚然"},{"start":9404.03,"end":9408.03,"text":"然後我想這一位台灣的這個相聲的演員"},{"start":9408.03,"end":9410.03,"text":"那黃毅豪他在舞台上"},{"start":9410.03,"end":9413.03,"text":"因為諷刺這個中共跟這個習近平"},{"start":9413.03,"end":9416.03,"text":"然後遭到了這個中國的境外勢力"},{"start":9416.03,"end":9418.03,"text":"花費了45萬元的一個台幣"},{"start":9418.03,"end":9420.03,"text":"等於是跨海來買胸"},{"start":9420.03,"end":9421.03,"text":"可以這麼講"},{"start":9421.03,"end":9424.03,"text":"對那進行非常的寫實"},{"start":9424.03,"end":9426.03,"text":"而且令人覺得非常惶恐的"},{"start":9426.03,"end":9428.03,"text":"所謂的這個跨境的鎮壓"},{"start":9430.04,"end":9432.04,"text":"那我想他這個之前"},{"start":9432.04,"end":9436.04,"text":"這一群幫兇其實在這個黃先生他的這個車上"},{"start":9436.04,"end":9440.04,"text":"有安裝所謂的這個GPS的一個定位"},{"start":9440.04,"end":9444.04,"text":"那另外也企圖用所謂的這個"},{"start":9444.04,"end":9446.04,"text":"假車禍或是偵車禍"},{"start":9446.04,"end":9449.04,"text":"然後也恐嚇他就是要打斷他的手腳"},{"start":9449.04,"end":9452.04,"text":"讓他之後沒有辦法再上台演出"},{"start":9452.04,"end":9454.04,"text":"那我想這已經不是一般的"},{"start":9454.04,"end":9456.04,"text":"所謂的治安的車禍的一個案件了"},{"start":9456.04,"end":9460.04,"text":"那這個其實也透過他們這樣子的一個行徑"},{"start":9460.04,"end":9463.04,"text":"那之前也有在這個跨海"},{"start":9463.04,"end":9467.04,"text":"叫做波芬、波7等等這樣子的一個狀況"},{"start":9467.04,"end":9471.04,"text":"那在這裡其實是一個非常恐怖的一種滲透"},{"start":9471.04,"end":9473.04,"text":"那我想在這裡請教一下局長"},{"start":9473.04,"end":9475.04,"text":"因為這件案件其實也透露了這個"},{"start":9475.04,"end":9478.04,"text":"我等一下要問的這個三個部分"},{"start":9478.04,"end":9480.04,"text":"那我想這個三大盲區"},{"start":9480.04,"end":9482.04,"text":"包含就是他的金流"},{"start":9482.04,"end":9484.04,"text":"還有他的通訊的一個盲區"},{"start":9484.04,"end":9486.04,"text":"那我想中共利用所謂的虛擬貨幣也好"},{"start":9486.04,"end":9488.04,"text":"或者是通訊的這個軟體也好"},{"start":9488.04,"end":9490.04,"text":"他從境外遠端的下單"},{"start":9490.04,"end":9493.04,"text":"然後再來結合台灣的黑幫"},{"start":9493.04,"end":9495.04,"text":"跟所謂的退役的真性社"},{"start":9495.04,"end":9497.04,"text":"那在境內接單"},{"start":9497.04,"end":9500.04,"text":"那當所謂的這個外包的現名"},{"start":9500.04,"end":9504.04,"text":"他們設這樣子的一種所謂的斷點的犯罪"},{"start":9504.04,"end":9508.04,"text":"那我想國安局事前有沒有經過情搜"},{"start":9508.04,"end":9511.04,"text":"或者是我們有沒有任何的資訊"},{"start":9511.04,"end":9513.04,"text":"可以來做預警這是第一個問題"},{"start":9513.04,"end":9514.04,"text":"那第二個問題就是說"},{"start":9514.04,"end":9516.04,"text":"他利用所謂的車禍也好"},{"start":9516.04,"end":9517.04,"text":"或者是撥分也好"},{"start":9517.04,"end":9520.04,"text":"其實他是來規避反滲透法"},{"start":9520.04,"end":9522.04,"text":"那另外也規避這個國安法的部分"},{"start":9522.04,"end":9524.04,"text":"那我們國安局這邊如果"},{"start":9524.04,"end":9527.04,"text":"只能把它當成一般的社會的一個糾紛"},{"start":9527.04,"end":9531.04,"text":"只是給所謂的基層的員警去查查"},{"start":9531.04,"end":9534.04,"text":"我想這個層級其實是真的完全是不夠的"},{"start":9534.04,"end":9538.04,"text":"第三個因為這位這個黃演員"},{"start":9538.04,"end":9542.04,"text":"他有說他在11月他還會在登台的這個表演"},{"start":9542.04,"end":9545.04,"text":"那但是他其實也做了這個寒蟬效應"},{"start":9545.04,"end":9547.04,"text":"這個寒蟬效應他居然要在現場"},{"start":9547.04,"end":9551.04,"text":"要發所謂的防波史的羽衣"},{"start":9551.04,"end":9553.04,"text":"這個對於台灣民主來講"},{"start":9553.04,"end":9555.04,"text":"其實是非常大的一個諷刺"},{"start":9555.04,"end":9558.04,"text":"那針對這三點請教一下這個局長"},{"start":9558.04,"end":9560.04,"text":"我們有沒有什麼樣的因應之道"},{"start":9560.04,"end":9563.04,"text":"因為這個其實是非常嚴重的一件事情"},{"start":9563.04,"end":9565.04,"text":"對因為跨國增加的案件"},{"start":9565.04,"end":9567.04,"text":"是對我們民主法治社會一個嚴重的挑戰"},{"start":9567.04,"end":9570.04,"text":"那讓民眾處於一種恐慌的狀態"},{"start":9570.04,"end":9572.04,"text":"那所以國安局這邊大概我們都有列管"},{"start":9572.04,"end":9574.04,"text":"那針對這些個案的列管"},{"start":9574.04,"end":9577.04,"text":"我們跟警政署這邊都有一個及時情資分享"},{"start":9577.04,"end":9580.04,"text":"跟保護當事人的一些規劃"},{"start":9580.04,"end":9582.04,"text":"所以以這個個案來講"},{"start":9582.04,"end":9583.04,"text":"當事人我們在第一時間"},{"start":9583.04,"end":9586.04,"text":"因為他去年就已經被威脅恐嚇潑氣潑糞了"},{"start":9586.04,"end":9589.04,"text":"所以已經有列入專案的一個管制"},{"start":9589.04,"end":9592.04,"text":"那包括他人身的安全的維護"},{"start":9592.04,"end":9593.04,"text":"我們把他所有的引出場次"},{"start":9593.04,"end":9594.04,"text":"大家都已經列出來了"},{"start":9594.04,"end":9596.04,"text":"那有跟警方去討論"},{"start":9596.04,"end":9598.04,"text":"怎麼樣提供他個人人身保護"},{"start":9598.04,"end":9601.04,"text":"以及他出入場所周邊的保護"},{"start":9601.04,"end":9604.04,"text":"因為怕有現行犯沒有辦法逮捕他"},{"start":9604.04,"end":9606.04,"text":"所以這部分大概都有做一些前置的部署"},{"start":9606.04,"end":9609.04,"text":"那我只是用這個個案來讓委員稍微知道一下"},{"start":9609.04,"end":9612.04,"text":"針對這些跨國鎮壓的這些案例"},{"start":9612.04,"end":9615.04,"text":"我們國安機關跟警政署這邊"},{"start":9615.04,"end":9618.04,"text":"大概都有一個密切聯繫通報的機制"},{"start":9618.04,"end":9621.04,"text":"那有沒有另外一個更明確的一個做法"},{"start":9621.04,"end":9622.04,"text":"比方說我剛剛所提到的"},{"start":9622.04,"end":9624.04,"text":"他其實是透過境外的一個金流"},{"start":9624.04,"end":9627.04,"text":"那這個部分的金流我們怎麼樣阻斷"},{"start":9627.04,"end":9629.04,"text":"對這部分必須要先有情資"},{"start":9629.04,"end":9634.04,"text":"那另外再從涉案人士他的數位激政去還原"},{"start":9634.04,"end":9637.04,"text":"是不是有境外的指示還有金流的挹注"},{"start":9637.04,"end":9640.04,"text":"那以相關個案來講"},{"start":9640.04,"end":9641.04,"text":"有掌握這樣的市政的話"},{"start":9641.04,"end":9645.04,"text":"你比較能夠去勾連到所謂的境外勢力的指使跟支柱"},{"start":9645.04,"end":9647.04,"text":"那這個法律要件的構成不太容易"},{"start":9647.04,"end":9649.04,"text":"必須跟老實跟委員承認不太容易"},{"start":9649.04,"end":9650.04,"text":"因為他是在境外"},{"start":9650.04,"end":9652.04,"text":"那不過幾個案例下來"},{"start":9652.04,"end":9655.04,"text":"也在這部分的市政的蒐集"},{"start":9655.04,"end":9656.04,"text":"有出現一些突破"},{"start":9656.04,"end":9657.04,"text":"這大概是第一點"},{"start":9657.04,"end":9659.04,"text":"那有沒有因為這個個案"},{"start":9659.04,"end":9661.04,"text":"其實我們也組成了所謂的跨部會"},{"start":9661.04,"end":9662.04,"text":"對我們在累積經驗"},{"start":9662.04,"end":9665.04,"text":"我們是不斷的在處理個案當中去累積經驗"},{"start":9665.04,"end":9667.04,"text":"那第二部分委員有提到"},{"start":9667.04,"end":9670.04,"text":"那這種案子不應該由基層的員警"},{"start":9670.04,"end":9674.04,"text":"去用一般的刑事犯件或民事糾紛去處理"},{"start":9674.04,"end":9675.04,"text":"所以以這個個案來講"},{"start":9675.04,"end":9677.04,"text":"事實上因為他已經被我們列管了"},{"start":9677.04,"end":9679.04,"text":"所以當基層員警在第一時間"},{"start":9679.04,"end":9681.04,"text":"以為只是行車糾紛報回來的時候"},{"start":9681.04,"end":9683.04,"text":"警政署馬上通報我們"},{"start":9683.04,"end":9684.04,"text":"那我們經過比對發現"},{"start":9684.04,"end":9686.04,"text":"案官相關人士他是有黑套背景的"},{"start":9686.04,"end":9689.04,"text":"那在建立部的麻煩警政署基層的同仁"},{"start":9689.04,"end":9691.04,"text":"去調閱相關的監視率"},{"start":9691.04,"end":9694.04,"text":"你會發現確實是一個組織犯罪的行為"},{"start":9694.04,"end":9695.04,"text":"所以這個案子也凸顯出"},{"start":9695.04,"end":9699.04,"text":"我們不是只是讓基層員警去處理這個案子"},{"start":9699.04,"end":9700.04,"text":"透過警方內部的通報機制"},{"start":9700.04,"end":9703.04,"text":"以及本局跟警方的通報機制"},{"start":9703.04,"end":9705.04,"text":"我們會用國安的角度來看待這些"},{"start":9705.04,"end":9708.04,"text":"所謂跨國鎮壓案件的偵辦跟查查"},{"start":9708.04,"end":9711.04,"text":"那第三部分是法律的部分"},{"start":9711.04,"end":9714.04,"text":"法律的部分確實有一些限制"},{"start":9714.04,"end":9716.04,"text":"剛才我也一再的跟委員說明"},{"start":9716.04,"end":9718.04,"text":"如果用的大概是刑法傷害罪"},{"start":9718.04,"end":9721.04,"text":"暴力恐嚇或是各知法"},{"start":9721.04,"end":9723.04,"text":"或是組織犯罪"},{"start":9723.04,"end":9725.04,"text":"因為組織犯罪是重刑五年以上"},{"start":9725.04,"end":9727.04,"text":"所以台中的案子就有用到組織犯罪"},{"start":9727.04,"end":9730.04,"text":"那不過早上再跟委員說明報告的是"},{"start":9730.04,"end":9733.04,"text":"假如能夠有專法或是反滲透法"},{"start":9733.04,"end":9736.04,"text":"在這個跨國鎮壓的部分能夠加重刑責的話"},{"start":9736.04,"end":9738.04,"text":"那國安局的立場是支持的"},{"start":9738.04,"end":9740.04,"text":"那行政院已經有召會再做相關討論"},{"start":9740.04,"end":9742.04,"text":"我們會把我們國安的關切跟考量"},{"start":9742.04,"end":9744.04,"text":"跟院方來做一些分享"},{"start":9744.04,"end":9747.04,"text":"好 因為接著下來其實是選舉快到"},{"start":9747.04,"end":9748.04,"text":"只是他最後的37天"},{"start":9748.04,"end":9751.04,"text":"其實我們還是要研訪有更大規模的滲透"},{"start":9751.04,"end":9754.04,"text":"跟更大規模組織性的一些活動"},{"start":9754.04,"end":9756.04,"text":"那我想這個部分可能還是要請"},{"start":9756.04,"end":9758.04,"text":"我們的國安局跟其他的跨部會"},{"start":9758.04,"end":9761.04,"text":"我們相關的部會其實要特別的防範這一點"},{"start":9761.04,"end":9763.04,"text":"對 我們有在處理"},{"start":9763.04,"end":9764.04,"text":"因為是人身安全的維護"},{"start":9764.04,"end":9766.04,"text":"因為這是警政署的職責"},{"start":9766.04,"end":9768.04,"text":"那他們對於一些特定候選人"},{"start":9768.04,"end":9769.04,"text":"都有一些人身安全的保護"},{"start":9769.04,"end":9771.04,"text":"當然要尊重候選人意願"},{"start":9771.04,"end":9775.04,"text":"那第二部分是有一些跨境鎮壓"},{"start":9775.04,"end":9776.04,"text":"涉入到的都是黑幫"},{"start":9776.04,"end":9779.04,"text":"那這部分我們也會有一波的掃蕩"},{"start":9779.04,"end":9781.04,"text":"就是我剛剛說的組織性的一個活動"},{"start":9781.04,"end":9782.04,"text":"對 那個氣勢壓力"},{"start":9782.04,"end":9783.04,"text":"所以這個要小心"},{"start":9783.04,"end":9785.04,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝局長"},{"start":9785.04,"end":9788.04,"text":"好 謝謝郭育勤委員"},{"start":9788.04,"end":9791.04,"text":"接下來我們請陳冠廷委員質詢"},{"start":9802.86,"end":9803.86,"text":"你好 我們請局長"},{"start":9803.86,"end":9804.86,"text":"請蔡局長"},{"start":9811.56,"end":9812.56,"text":"好 蔡委員早"},{"start":9812.56,"end":9815.56,"text":"局長 這些剛才好多我們的同仁"},{"start":9815.56,"end":9817.56,"text":"都有提到這個跨境鎮壓的事情"},{"start":9817.56,"end":9820.56,"text":"對 那也有提到這一次這個喜劇演員"},{"start":9820.56,"end":9825.56,"text":"然後受這種類似假借假車禍要把人家"},{"start":9825.56,"end":9829.56,"text":"應該是做這種跨境的鎮壓"},{"start":9829.56,"end":9832.56,"text":"這樣的狀況你們事前有掌握到情資嗎"},{"start":9832.56,"end":9833.56,"text":"有 有 剛有說"},{"start":9833.56,"end":9835.56,"text":"因為他的這個個案"},{"start":9835.56,"end":9838.56,"text":"因為他去年就發生波及波份了"},{"start":9838.56,"end":9840.56,"text":"那因為有跨境鎮壓的樣態"},{"start":9840.56,"end":9841.56,"text":"所以我們這邊已經列管"},{"start":9841.56,"end":9845.56,"text":"那在後續又有製造假車禍的新聞"},{"start":9845.56,"end":9847.56,"text":"案件出來之後"},{"start":9847.56,"end":9848.56,"text":"繼承員警一開始"},{"start":9848.56,"end":9851.56,"text":"他沒有辦法判斷這是有國安疑慮的"},{"start":9851.56,"end":9852.56,"text":"但是通報到警政署"},{"start":9852.56,"end":9853.56,"text":"警政署再通報我們"},{"start":9853.56,"end":9856.56,"text":"我們再比對涉案人士的黑道背景"},{"start":9856.56,"end":9858.56,"text":"那我們就認為這有國安的問題"},{"start":9858.56,"end":9861.56,"text":"那請警政署再進一步加強查查"},{"start":9861.56,"end":9862.56,"text":"讓發現背後的這個網絡"},{"start":9862.56,"end":9864.56,"text":"去調閱相關的錄影帶"},{"start":9864.56,"end":9868.56,"text":"來看他製造假車禍的一個行為樣態"},{"start":9868.56,"end":9871.56,"text":"包括有人在一天前就開始去常看"},{"start":9871.56,"end":9874.56,"text":"那以及現場製造車禍的一個狀況"},{"start":9874.56,"end":9877.56,"text":"那這個部分我看最近這兩天的影片"},{"start":9877.56,"end":9880.56,"text":"大概都有做一些公布了"},{"start":9880.56,"end":9884.56,"text":"所以基本上在波及的這個狀況的時候"},{"start":9884.56,"end":9885.56,"text":"你們就已經有掌握"},{"start":9885.56,"end":9886.56,"text":"對 這次跨境鎮壓案子"},{"start":9886.56,"end":9887.56,"text":"我們就列管了"},{"start":9887.56,"end":9889.56,"text":"但是你們列管到他們執行"},{"start":9889.56,"end":9891.56,"text":"更進一步的傷害"},{"start":9891.56,"end":9893.56,"text":"對 大概過了多久"},{"start":9893.83,"end":9895.83,"text":"事實上在列管之後"},{"start":9895.83,"end":9897.83,"text":"對於當事人的人身安全"},{"start":9897.83,"end":9899.83,"text":"就已經開始加強保護"},{"start":9899.83,"end":9901.83,"text":"誰負責加強保護"},{"start":9901.83,"end":9902.83,"text":"抱歉 委員剛剛講的是"},{"start":9902.83,"end":9903.83,"text":"誰負責加強保護"},{"start":9903.83,"end":9905.83,"text":"警方就開始加強保護了"},{"start":9905.83,"end":9907.83,"text":"因為你們把他之前被波及的這個"},{"start":9907.83,"end":9909.83,"text":"你們就把他有作為"},{"start":9909.83,"end":9911.83,"text":"有可能是跨境鎮壓的形式"},{"start":9911.83,"end":9912.83,"text":"所以你們把這個資訊"},{"start":9912.83,"end":9913.83,"text":"已經先給警方了"},{"start":9913.83,"end":9916.83,"text":"對 所以警方就可以做事先"},{"start":9916.83,"end":9919.83,"text":"在進一步傷害之前的預防"},{"start":9919.83,"end":9921.83,"text":"或者是加強保護"},{"start":9921.83,"end":9923.83,"text":"但是在事情發生之後"},{"start":9923.83,"end":9925.83,"text":"你說你又把這個樣態"},{"start":9925.83,"end":9926.83,"text":"因為他們不清楚"},{"start":9926.83,"end":9929.83,"text":"這可能是跨境的國安事件"},{"start":9929.83,"end":9930.83,"text":"那你就矛盾了"},{"start":9930.83,"end":9932.83,"text":"你如果事前已讓警方知道"},{"start":9932.83,"end":9934.83,"text":"他有跨境鎮壓的狀況"},{"start":9934.83,"end":9935.83,"text":"那事後你又說"},{"start":9935.83,"end":9937.83,"text":"他們不了解有這樣的樣態"},{"start":9937.83,"end":9939.83,"text":"所以你們事後再給他這樣的情報"},{"start":9939.83,"end":9940.83,"text":"那你是事前已經給了"},{"start":9940.83,"end":9941.83,"text":"還是事後再給了"},{"start":9941.83,"end":9942.83,"text":"因為事前的時候"},{"start":9942.83,"end":9944.83,"text":"大概就已經針對他後續的"},{"start":9944.83,"end":9946.83,"text":"我們當時是判斷"},{"start":9946.83,"end":9949.83,"text":"假如他要去針對當事人進行"},{"start":9949.83,"end":9951.83,"text":"一些攻擊的行為的話"},{"start":9951.83,"end":9953.83,"text":"應該會在他的表演場所"},{"start":9953.83,"end":9954.83,"text":"因為他在過去"},{"start":9954.83,"end":9956.83,"text":"頗氣頗憤的就是他表演場所"},{"start":9956.83,"end":9957.83,"text":"要公然的恐嚇"},{"start":9957.83,"end":9959.83,"text":"或在他表演完之後"},{"start":9959.83,"end":9961.83,"text":"來脅迫他"},{"start":9961.83,"end":9962.83,"text":"那這大概是出盤"},{"start":9962.83,"end":9964.83,"text":"所以後續在保護的過程當中"},{"start":9964.83,"end":9965.83,"text":"是針對他"},{"start":9965.83,"end":9967.83,"text":"在公開表演的時候提供保護"},{"start":9967.83,"end":9969.83,"text":"那當然這一次受到傷害"},{"start":9969.83,"end":9972.83,"text":"是他在個人在家裡"},{"start":9972.83,"end":9974.83,"text":"周邊活動的時候"},{"start":9974.83,"end":9976.83,"text":"被製造了這個假車禍"},{"start":9976.83,"end":9977.83,"text":"那所以是"},{"start":9977.83,"end":9978.83,"text":"針對他的假車禍"},{"start":9978.83,"end":9981.83,"text":"是當地的管區的員警"},{"start":9981.83,"end":9982.83,"text":"那管區員警第一時間"},{"start":9982.83,"end":9984.83,"text":"可能當然就以為是一般的"},{"start":9984.83,"end":9985.83,"text":"車禍事件來處理來做通報"},{"start":9985.83,"end":9986.83,"text":"但是我們後來知道"},{"start":9986.83,"end":9989.83,"text":"我講這個東西不是要這個"},{"start":9989.83,"end":9990.83,"text":"來指責或者是說"},{"start":9990.83,"end":9992.83,"text":"國安局沒有做到什麼保護"},{"start":9992.83,"end":9994.83,"text":"因為我們根本無法去判定說"},{"start":9994.83,"end":9997.83,"text":"中國會這麼快速的上升情勢"},{"start":9997.83,"end":9998.83,"text":"因為過去來看"},{"start":9998.83,"end":10000.83,"text":"中國對於境外的這些鎮壓"},{"start":10000.83,"end":10003.83,"text":"它還是傾向於非直接暴力"},{"start":10003.83,"end":10005.83,"text":"而是用間接的方式"},{"start":10005.83,"end":10006.83,"text":"用恐嚇的方式"},{"start":10006.83,"end":10009.83,"text":"潑會器物的等等的方式"},{"start":10009.83,"end":10011.83,"text":"會物的等等的方式來去做"},{"start":10011.83,"end":10013.83,"text":"也就是說他們有在做"},{"start":10013.83,"end":10015.83,"text":"一定程度的來去做威嚇"},{"start":10015.83,"end":10017.83,"text":"而不是實質上的暴力行動"},{"start":10017.83,"end":10019.83,"text":"但是近年我們已經有看到"},{"start":10019.83,"end":10020.83,"text":"它往上提升"},{"start":10020.83,"end":10022.83,"text":"就是escalate嘛"},{"start":10022.83,"end":10023.83,"text":"這個狀況已經出現了"},{"start":10023.83,"end":10026.83,"text":"這個這樣子的認定有沒有錯"},{"start":10026.83,"end":10027.83,"text":"許長"},{"start":10027.83,"end":10029.83,"text":"對 我今天早上跟媒體在講"},{"start":10029.83,"end":10031.83,"text":"也是講我們認為是升溫的"},{"start":10031.83,"end":10032.83,"text":"已經在升溫"},{"start":10032.83,"end":10034.83,"text":"它從過去的恐嚇"},{"start":10034.83,"end":10037.83,"text":"或者是說用這種隱藏的壓力"},{"start":10037.83,"end":10039.83,"text":"來去讓人噤聲"},{"start":10039.83,"end":10041.83,"text":"到現在是直接用暴力喔"},{"start":10041.83,"end":10043.83,"text":"那過去的暴力是"},{"start":10044.18,"end":10046.18,"text":"就是用肢體上面的"},{"start":10046.18,"end":10048.18,"text":"像是之前那個失敗名副"},{"start":10048.18,"end":10050.18,"text":"可能是用呼發展之類的方式"},{"start":10050.18,"end":10052.18,"text":"到上升到假車禍"},{"start":10052.18,"end":10054.18,"text":"那假車禍的意思是什麼"},{"start":10054.18,"end":10057.18,"text":"就是它的輕重可能會超越他們的控制喔"},{"start":10057.18,"end":10059.18,"text":"因為當你是車禍的時候"},{"start":10059.18,"end":10061.18,"text":"你沒有辦法去拿捏"},{"start":10061.18,"end":10063.18,"text":"你到之後的影響"},{"start":10063.18,"end":10065.18,"text":"或者是成果會是怎樣"},{"start":10064.89,"end":10066.89,"text":"所以過去中國是"},{"start":10066.89,"end":10068.89,"text":"某種程度"},{"start":10068.89,"end":10071.89,"text":"他們是限度型的來去做跨境鎮壓"},{"start":10071.89,"end":10073.89,"text":"他們現在已經快要接近"},{"start":10073.89,"end":10075.89,"text":"沒有限度的去鎮壓"},{"start":10075.89,"end":10077.89,"text":"那哪一些國家"},{"start":10077.92,"end":10079.92,"text":"最會做這些事情喔"},{"start":10079.92,"end":10081.92,"text":"俄羅斯在英國倫敦"},{"start":10081.92,"end":10083.92,"text":"基本上參與策劃了"},{"start":10083.92,"end":10085.92,"text":"多起的暗殺事件"},{"start":10085.92,"end":10087.92,"text":"而且都是成功"},{"start":10087.92,"end":10089.92,"text":"也就是說過去在"},{"start":10089.92,"end":10091.92,"text":"英國倫敦發生的狀況"},{"start":10091.92,"end":10093.92,"text":"不管是他們的前情報員"},{"start":10093.92,"end":10095.92,"text":"在英國受到庇護的時候"},{"start":10095.92,"end":10097.92,"text":"直接被神經毒素"},{"start":10097.92,"end":10099.92,"text":"或者是放射性物質"},{"start":10099.92,"end":10101.92,"text":"來去做暗殺的作"},{"start":10101.92,"end":10103.92,"text":"暗殺之外"},{"start":10103.92,"end":10105.92,"text":"除了目標人物本身"},{"start":10105.92,"end":10107.92,"text":"民眾,一般民眾喔"},{"start":10107.92,"end":10109.92,"text":"不是異議份子,都受到波及"},{"start":10110,"end":10112,"text":"所以我必須要講說這個跨境鎮壓已經不是用鎮壓這兩個字了"},{"start":10113.88,"end":10115.88,"text":"他現在已經上升到"},{"start":10115.88,"end":10117.88,"text":"甚至有可能會成為跨境的暗殺"},{"start":10117.88,"end":10119.88,"text":"甚至是殺害"},{"start":10119.88,"end":10121.88,"text":"相關的異議人士"},{"start":10121.88,"end":10123.88,"text":"所以怎麼樣把這樣的資訊"},{"start":10123.88,"end":10125.88,"text":"那透過,已經不僅是國安局的這個角色"},{"start":10125.88,"end":10127.88,"text":"國安局的角色"},{"start":10127.88,"end":10129.88,"text":"就第一個要讓情報"},{"start":10129.88,"end":10131.88,"text":"趕快的給當地的"},{"start":10131.88,"end":10133.88,"text":"我們的這些警政單位來去做防護"},{"start":10133.88,"end":10135.88,"text":"但是現在的狀況"},{"start":10135.88,"end":10137.88,"text":"必須要由包含入委會"},{"start":10137.88,"end":10139.88,"text":"要嚴正的跟中方"},{"start":10139.88,"end":10141.88,"text":"來去交涉喔"},{"start":10141.88,"end":10143.88,"text":"要在這樣的狀況之下"},{"start":10143.88,"end":10145.88,"text":"再往上延燒的話"},{"start":10145.88,"end":10147.88,"text":"那後果是不堪設想的"},{"start":10147.88,"end":10149.88,"text":"那對台灣人民的這個影響"},{"start":10149.88,"end":10151.88,"text":"日常生活的直接影響"},{"start":10151.88,"end":10153.88,"text":"以及對我們這個"},{"start":10153.88,"end":10155.88,"text":"接下來,不管是地方選舉的大選"},{"start":10155.88,"end":10157.88,"text":"或者是國政的大選喔"},{"start":10157.88,"end":10159.88,"text":"就是中央的立法委員跟總統的大選"},{"start":10159.88,"end":10161.88,"text":"每一個人都有可能受到威脅喔"},{"start":10161.88,"end":10163.88,"text":"所以這已經在考驗"},{"start":10163.88,"end":10165.88,"text":"除了說我們得知情報的能力之外"},{"start":10165.88,"end":10167.88,"text":"還有我們的防護能力"},{"start":10170.83,"end":10172.83,"text":"跟我們的應變能力喔"},{"start":10172.83,"end":10174.83,"text":"這個是非常嚴肅的議題"},{"start":10174.83,"end":10176.83,"text":"因為我還是要再強調喔"},{"start":10176.83,"end":10178.83,"text":"過去中國"},{"start":10178.83,"end":10180.83,"text":"他在跨境的鎮壓的時候"},{"start":10180.83,"end":10182.83,"text":"他基本上"},{"start":10182.32,"end":10184.32,"text":"是限度型的鎮壓"},{"start":10184.32,"end":10186.32,"text":"現在已經沒有限度"},{"start":10186.32,"end":10188.32,"text":"還在升溫當中"},{"start":10188.32,"end":10190.32,"text":"當你看到這個假車禍之後"},{"start":10190.32,"end":10192.32,"text":"他的下一步可能就是"},{"start":10192.32,"end":10194.32,"text":"會讓人不是傷殘而已"},{"start":10194.32,"end":10196.32,"text":"所以這個升溫的狀況你們掌握到什麼程度"},{"start":10196.32,"end":10198.32,"text":"這個是個別事件"},{"start":10198.32,"end":10200.32,"text":"還是"},{"start":10200.32,"end":10202.32,"text":"中共有系統的準備要升溫"},{"start":10202.32,"end":10204.32,"text":"得獎,兩個部分"},{"start":10204.32,"end":10206.32,"text":"就個別案件的查查"},{"start":10206.32,"end":10208.32,"text":"剛好已經跟委員說明了"},{"start":10208.32,"end":10210.32,"text":"我們大概都有做一些列管"},{"start":10210.32,"end":10212.32,"text":"但是我們還是會跟警方及時來分享"},{"start":10212.32,"end":10214.32,"text":"讓警方可以採取必要的"},{"start":10214.32,"end":10216.32,"text":"預防的動作"},{"start":10216.32,"end":10218.32,"text":"或是後續之後的查處"},{"start":10218.32,"end":10220.32,"text":"那第二部分是委員剛剛質詢的重點"},{"start":10220.32,"end":10222.32,"text":"對於他的那個手法太樣"},{"start":10222.32,"end":10224.32,"text":"是不是有不斷的在變化"},{"start":10224.32,"end":10226.32,"text":"那我們認為確實有不斷的在變化"},{"start":10226.32,"end":10228.32,"text":"因為一般所謂的跨國鎮壓"},{"start":10228.32,"end":10230.32,"text":"一開始是用恐嚇的方式"},{"start":10230.32,"end":10232.32,"text":"台中的案子顯示的是暴力的脅迫"},{"start":10232.32,"end":10234.32,"text":"暴力的攻擊"},{"start":10234.32,"end":10236.32,"text":"但暴力的攻擊他又會違反我們的法律"},{"start":10236.32,"end":10238.32,"text":"所以他又開始去"},{"start":10238.32,"end":10240.32,"text":"所以這個法律變成是製造假策獲"},{"start":10240.32,"end":10242.32,"text":"那所以這個整個手法樣態的轉變"},{"start":10242.32,"end":10244.32,"text":"是我們有在觀察的"},{"start":10244.32,"end":10246.32,"text":"現在我基本上可以這麼講"},{"start":10246.32,"end":10248.32,"text":"有限度已經到了接近無限度了"},{"start":10248.32,"end":10250.32,"text":"還在審問當中"},{"start":10250.32,"end":10252.32,"text":"這是第一點,第二點"},{"start":10252.32,"end":10254.32,"text":"跟我國,我們的黑幫"},{"start":10254.32,"end":10256.32,"text":"當地的黑幫是不是有聯繫"},{"start":10256.32,"end":10258.32,"text":"是不是有直接的"},{"start":10258.32,"end":10260.32,"text":"掌控或者是操控的狀況"},{"start":10260.32,"end":10262.32,"text":"有或沒有"},{"start":10262.32,"end":10264.32,"text":"這部分我們剛剛已經跟很多委員說明過了"},{"start":10264.32,"end":10266.32,"text":"有,那主要是黑幫以及跟黑幫"},{"start":10266.32,"end":10268.32,"text":"有關係的徵信社"},{"start":10268.32,"end":10270.32,"text":"哪些幫,哪些幫派都知道"},{"start":10270.32,"end":10272.32,"text":"都知道"},{"start":10272.32,"end":10274.32,"text":"那我們已經有跟"},{"start":10274.32,"end":10276.32,"text":"具體的跟我講"},{"start":10276.32,"end":10278.32,"text":"現在講了之後"},{"start":10278.32,"end":10280.32,"text":"黑幫都跑光了"},{"start":10280.32,"end":10282.32,"text":"台灣的黑幫會跑光"},{"start":10282.32,"end":10284.32,"text":"台灣的黑幫我們是要掃蕩的"},{"start":10284.32,"end":10286.32,"text":"當然豬圓幫是海幫,哪一些不是"},{"start":10286.32,"end":10288.32,"text":"全部都是啊"},{"start":10288.32,"end":10290.32,"text":"我們剛剛在很多巡達委員當中"},{"start":10290.32,"end":10292.32,"text":"我們已經講過這些件事"},{"start":10292.32,"end":10294.32,"text":"國安局必須要把我們現在這個情勢"},{"start":10294.32,"end":10296.32,"text":"立刻跟法務部講"},{"start":10296.32,"end":10298.32,"text":"我們必須要,這些黑幫現在已經"},{"start":10298.32,"end":10300.32,"text":"猖狂到這種程度"},{"start":10300.32,"end":10302.32,"text":"跟境外勢力來去把我們的"},{"start":10302.32,"end":10304.32,"text":"包含這些演藝人員"},{"start":10304.32,"end":10306.32,"text":"直接的人生生命安全"},{"start":10306.32,"end":10308.32,"text":"來去做威脅,這是很嚴重的事情"},{"start":10308.32,"end":10310.32,"text":"除了這個之外"},{"start":10309.41,"end":10311.41,"text":"我們還要看到"},{"start":10311.41,"end":10313.41,"text":"把我們自己的國民送到東南亞去"},{"start":10313.41,"end":10315.41,"text":"這就是很"},{"start":10314.99,"end":10316.99,"text":"做局長豬仔,這是很嚴肅的議題"},{"start":10316.99,"end":10318.99,"text":"我認為國安局趕快"},{"start":10318.99,"end":10320.99,"text":"跟法務部來去,來磋商"},{"start":10320.99,"end":10322.99,"text":"必須要嚴正的掃蕩這些黑幫"},{"start":10322.99,"end":10324.99,"text":"從來沒有看過這樣子"},{"start":10324.99,"end":10326.99,"text":"越來越嚴重耶,你自己看台中那邊"},{"start":10326.99,"end":10328.99,"text":"三不五時都有那種"},{"start":10328.99,"end":10330.99,"text":"重大的這些,都不是個案"},{"start":10330.99,"end":10332.99,"text":"都是犯罪的幫派"},{"start":10332.99,"end":10334.99,"text":"團體"},{"start":10334.99,"end":10336.99,"text":"這些真的是很嚴肅的議題"},{"start":10336.99,"end":10338.99,"text":"已經上升到國安,所以局長你這個一定要全力"},{"start":10338.99,"end":10340.99,"text":"來協助法務部"},{"start":10340.99,"end":10342.99,"text":"這不是法務部,這是警政署的夜館"},{"start":10342.99,"end":10344.99,"text":"我們跟署長都有討論過"},{"start":10344.99,"end":10346.99,"text":"我們接下來針對這些協力的黑幫幫派"},{"start":10346.99,"end":10348.99,"text":"我們會有掃蕩的作為"},{"start":10348.99,"end":10350.99,"text":"不是啊,我剛剛說法務部,你說要修法"},{"start":10350.99,"end":10352.99,"text":"你說要相應的修法"},{"start":10352.99,"end":10354.99,"text":"要跟法務部一起來討論"},{"start":10354.99,"end":10356.99,"text":"我們現在講的是跨境鎮壓的查草"},{"start":10356.99,"end":10358.99,"text":"或是黑幫的掃蕩,這是警政署"},{"start":10358.99,"end":10360.99,"text":"法務部我們都要嘛"},{"start":10360.99,"end":10362.99,"text":"所以我剛剛講說,這法務,你們剛剛說"},{"start":10362.99,"end":10364.99,"text":"會行政院要來協調做修法相關的部分"},{"start":10364.99,"end":10366.99,"text":"這個是法務部我們要做的"},{"start":10366.99,"end":10368.99,"text":"接下來,我剛剛提到的,我們警內政府"},{"start":10368.99,"end":10370.99,"text":"警政署我們來處理嘛"},{"start":10370.99,"end":10372.99,"text":"所以我們還是要共有,這是很嚴肅"},{"start":10372.99,"end":10374.99,"text":"因為老實說"},{"start":10375.48,"end":10377.48,"text":"這個"},{"start":10376.46,"end":10378.46,"text":"黑幫的這種在"},{"start":10378.46,"end":10380.46,"text":"我看現在的狀況是"},{"start":10380.45,"end":10382.45,"text":"我們好像都,政治人物都會"},{"start":10382.45,"end":10384.45,"text":"也會去參加他們的"},{"start":10384.45,"end":10386.45,"text":"一些他們的這個工具"},{"start":10386.45,"end":10388.45,"text":"這個我可以理解,但是我可以理解說"},{"start":10388.45,"end":10390.45,"text":"這是禮儀上,可是這些人"},{"start":10390.45,"end":10392.45,"text":"就在那邊"},{"start":10392.31,"end":10394.31,"text":"已經造成社會治安的重大危害"},{"start":10394.31,"end":10396.31,"text":"我覺得是事實,要把"},{"start":10396.31,"end":10398.31,"text":"謝委員的關心跟提醒"},{"start":10398.31,"end":10400.31,"text":"我們再繼續來注意"},{"start":10400.31,"end":10402.31,"text":"這個很嚴重,因為我看他"},{"start":10402.31,"end":10404.31,"text":"從國安事件到那種"},{"start":10405.03,"end":10407.03,"text":"除了境外鎮壓之外,還把我們的"},{"start":10407.03,"end":10409.03,"text":"這些國民來送到境外去"},{"start":10409.03,"end":10411.03,"text":"這些影響都盛大"},{"start":10411.03,"end":10413.03,"text":"這些情報,麻煩"},{"start":10413.03,"end":10415.03,"text":"現在是除了演藝人員之外,還有沒有政治人物"},{"start":10415.03,"end":10417.03,"text":"也受到影響"},{"start":10417.03,"end":10419.03,"text":"有些案子都有在列館,都有"},{"start":10419.03,"end":10421.03,"text":"不只這些案子,還有"},{"start":10421.03,"end":10423.03,"text":"還有嗎?還有"},{"start":10423.03,"end":10425.03,"text":"事實的,就算他不要"},{"start":10425.03,"end":10427.03,"text":"如果他的有接受到情資"},{"start":10427.03,"end":10429.03,"text":"真的會影響到某些政治人物部分"},{"start":10429.03,"end":10431.03,"text":"在野黨或者是執政黨的安全"},{"start":10431.03,"end":10433.03,"text":"的話,包含派"},{"start":10433.03,"end":10435.03,"text":"相關的這個警政人員"},{"start":10435.03,"end":10437.03,"text":"來去做"},{"start":10437.03,"end":10439.03,"text":"個案保護都是有必要性的"},{"start":10439.03,"end":10441.03,"text":"要跟他們講一些重要的"},{"start":10441.03,"end":10443.03,"text":"應該的,謝謝"},{"start":10444.55,"end":10446.55,"text":"謝謝陳冠廷委員"},{"start":10447.12,"end":10449.12,"text":"現在請邱毅委員"},{"start":10450.6,"end":10452.6,"text":"邱毅委員"},{"start":10452.64,"end":10454.64,"text":"邱毅委員不在"},{"start":10454.64,"end":10456.64,"text":"接下來我們請邱志偉委員"},{"start":10463.03,"end":10465.03,"text":"剛剛聽到陳冠廷委員的質詢"},{"start":10465.03,"end":10467.03,"text":"非常精彩,令人感動"},{"start":10469.21,"end":10471.21,"text":"但是,只要我排4分鐘"},{"start":10471.21,"end":10473.21,"text":"240秒"},{"start":10473.6,"end":10475.6,"text":"要來探討國安問題"},{"start":10475.6,"end":10477.6,"text":"對我資訊能力,算是一個非常大的挑戰"},{"start":10477.6,"end":10479.6,"text":"挑戰看看"},{"start":10479.6,"end":10481.6,"text":"挑戰看看"},{"start":10481.7,"end":10483.7,"text":"第二段請白部調查局徐副局長"},{"start":10483.7,"end":10485.7,"text":"好,請副局長"},{"start":10489.46,"end":10491.46,"text":"局長,你好,你大概只有30秒"},{"start":10492.92,"end":10494.92,"text":"這個我的選區"},{"start":10494.92,"end":10496.92,"text":"有一個無黨籍候選人"},{"start":10496.92,"end":10498.92,"text":"因為是個社區會選"},{"start":10498.93,"end":10500.93,"text":"當然,他團隊有兩個被說壓"},{"start":10500.93,"end":10502.93,"text":"他個人被200萬交保"},{"start":10504.53,"end":10506.53,"text":"他是什麼原因去會選的"},{"start":10506.53,"end":10508.53,"text":"母親節表揚魔幻母親的時候"},{"start":10508.53,"end":10510.53,"text":"他發了比較高價的禮盒"},{"start":10515.13,"end":10517.13,"text":"好,那一定要有證人嘛"},{"start":10517.74,"end":10519.74,"text":"證人都是魔幻母親啊"},{"start":10519.85,"end":10521.85,"text":"魔幻母親動時七八十歲"},{"start":10521.85,"end":10523.85,"text":"一個個案"},{"start":10523.85,"end":10525.85,"text":"一個魔幻母親也是我很敬佩的長輩"},{"start":10527.33,"end":10529.33,"text":"哈佩布朗斯調查局或者是這個地檢署"},{"start":10530.84,"end":10532.84,"text":"請去兩次"},{"start":10532.84,"end":10534.84,"text":"其中一次十個小時"},{"start":10537.64,"end":10539.64,"text":"回來,哇,頭影人看到"},{"start":10539.64,"end":10541.64,"text":"又上台了"},{"start":10541.3,"end":10543.3,"text":"我提醒你們,不管是調查局"},{"start":10543.3,"end":10545.3,"text":"或者是我們地檢署"},{"start":10545.3,"end":10547.3,"text":"在查會的過程中"},{"start":10547.3,"end":10549.3,"text":"我們相關同仁查會的技巧"},{"start":10549.23,"end":10551.23,"text":"能夠再加強一下對長輩"},{"start":10552.12,"end":10554.12,"text":"多一點尊重"},{"start":10553.48,"end":10555.48,"text":"多點照顧,多點關懷,可以嗎"},{"start":10555.48,"end":10557.48,"text":"當然可以,因為我們偵辦案件"},{"start":10557.48,"end":10559.48,"text":"我提醒你,我是把這意見給你"},{"start":10559.48,"end":10561.48,"text":"好,你時間到了"},{"start":10562.41,"end":10564.41,"text":"好,下一位"},{"start":10563.98,"end":10565.98,"text":"國安局蔡局長"},{"start":10571.96,"end":10573.96,"text":"局長好,你大概有一分鐘"},{"start":10573.96,"end":10575.96,"text":"這個我們共事多久了"},{"start":10577.9,"end":10579.9,"text":"三年有吧"},{"start":10579.9,"end":10581.9,"text":"我每次質詢你"},{"start":10581.9,"end":10583.9,"text":"你看我質詢的"},{"start":10583.9,"end":10585.9,"text":"我的質詢的風格"},{"start":10585.9,"end":10587.9,"text":"跟我的質詢的內容"},{"start":10587.92,"end":10589.92,"text":"你覺得是正面評價還是負面評價"},{"start":10589.92,"end":10591.92,"text":"我連關心時政和國安議題"},{"start":10591.92,"end":10593.92,"text":"我們都非常感謝"},{"start":10593.92,"end":10595.92,"text":"正面評價還是負面評價"},{"start":10596.51,"end":10598.51,"text":"我們的評價都很正面"},{"start":10598.51,"end":10600.51,"text":"所有委員的評價都很正面"},{"start":10600.51,"end":10602.51,"text":"我是問你,我們沒有其他委員問我"},{"start":10603.57,"end":10605.57,"text":"我希望我能夠做到言之有物"},{"start":10605.57,"end":10607.57,"text":"言之有理,言之有感"},{"start":10610.13,"end":10612.13,"text":"我也是,這個國際政治PHD"},{"start":10613.91,"end":10615.91,"text":"這不是假的PHD"},{"start":10616.11,"end":10618.11,"text":"我也做了很多的研究"},{"start":10618.06,"end":10620.06,"text":"這些研究啊"},{"start":10620.06,"end":10622.06,"text":"從你的報告裡面我來請問幾個問題"},{"start":10622.06,"end":10624.06,"text":"CPTPP馬上要這個"},{"start":10624.06,"end":10626.06,"text":"在越南舉行"},{"start":10626.06,"end":10628.06,"text":"掌握的狀況"},{"start":10628.06,"end":10630.06,"text":"台灣陸會的可行性"},{"start":10630.06,"end":10632.06,"text":"成立工作小組可行性,你覺得嗎"},{"start":10631.51,"end":10633.51,"text":"這部分應該要請外事單位"},{"start":10633.51,"end":10635.51,"text":"來了解"},{"start":10635.51,"end":10637.51,"text":"通常都是在第一線接觸"},{"start":10637.51,"end":10639.51,"text":"你是統合各種其他國安"},{"start":10639.51,"end":10641.51,"text":"包括經濟,安全等等"},{"start":10642.36,"end":10644.36,"text":"那您個人的評估呢"},{"start":10644.4,"end":10646.4,"text":"我想政府叫CPTPP"},{"start":10646.4,"end":10648.4,"text":"還是有一貫的政策立場"},{"start":10648.4,"end":10650.4,"text":"但各國對於這個議題"},{"start":10650.4,"end":10652.4,"text":"也有他們各自的一個評估"},{"start":10652.4,"end":10654.4,"text":"所以這部分可能外交部門"},{"start":10654.4,"end":10656.4,"text":"在跟各國第一線的接觸"},{"start":10656.4,"end":10658.4,"text":"他的資訊會更多元"},{"start":10658.4,"end":10660.4,"text":"也更即時"},{"start":10660.4,"end":10662.4,"text":"我這邊會找,但是不一定那麼即時"},{"start":10662.4,"end":10664.4,"text":"從國安團隊的角度"},{"start":10664.4,"end":10666.4,"text":"去協助經濟部、外交部以及這個談判辦公室"},{"start":10666.4,"end":10668.4,"text":"去審核相關的資源"},{"start":10668.4,"end":10670.4,"text":"或者情報"},{"start":10670.4,"end":10672.4,"text":"提供給前線的我們作戰"},{"start":10672.4,"end":10674.4,"text":"或者前線的工作人員"},{"start":10674.4,"end":10676.4,"text":"務必能夠在今年"},{"start":10676.4,"end":10678.4,"text":"達成這個成立工作小組的目標"},{"start":10679.52,"end":10683.52,"text":"另外,印太產業韌性夥伴關係PIPIR"},{"start":10685.55,"end":10687.55,"text":"這個對台灣非常重要"},{"start":10687.55,"end":10689.55,"text":"我們加入是實質有效參與"},{"start":10689.55,"end":10691.55,"text":"算是顧問"},{"start":10691.55,"end":10693.55,"text":"是不是實質有效參與"},{"start":10693.55,"end":10695.55,"text":"但你以顧問的身份"},{"start":10695.55,"end":10697.55,"text":"來參加這個機制"},{"start":10697.55,"end":10699.55,"text":"至少對於整個跨國合作的方向"},{"start":10699.55,"end":10701.55,"text":"我關心的是不是有效實質的參與"},{"start":10702.29,"end":10704.29,"text":"還是有幫助"},{"start":10704.29,"end":10706.29,"text":"看有效實質的定義是怎麼樣"},{"start":10706.29,"end":10708.29,"text":"但是你有參與的話"},{"start":10708.29,"end":10710.29,"text":"你對於將來大家在相關產業鏈標準化"},{"start":10710.29,"end":10712.29,"text":"的那些規範"},{"start":10712.29,"end":10714.29,"text":"你才能夠有最新的資訊"},{"start":10714.29,"end":10716.29,"text":"它是定期性的會議還是一個協調的機制"},{"start":10716.29,"end":10718.29,"text":"它是一個協調性的機制"},{"start":10718.29,"end":10720.29,"text":"不定期的協調機制"},{"start":10720.29,"end":10722.29,"text":"不定期召開會議來討論不同的"},{"start":10722.29,"end":10724.29,"text":"我希望能夠把握所有機會"},{"start":10724.29,"end":10726.29,"text":"去協調或者是參加會議的時候"},{"start":10726.29,"end":10728.29,"text":"把台灣列入這個所謂的"},{"start":10728.29,"end":10730.29,"text":"這個PIPIR"},{"start":10730.29,"end":10732.29,"text":"在大家的夥伴關係裡面"},{"start":10732.29,"end":10734.29,"text":"這個部分也很重要"},{"start":10734.29,"end":10736.29,"text":"另外這個"},{"start":10736.64,"end":10738.64,"text":"中國啊"},{"start":10738.03,"end":10740.03,"text":"對我國跨國鎮壓"},{"start":10740.03,"end":10742.03,"text":"鎮壓的這個情況"},{"start":10742.03,"end":10744.03,"text":"非常嚴重"},{"start":10743.46,"end":10745.46,"text":"對於實施這個所謂"},{"start":10745.46,"end":10747.46,"text":"跨國鎮壓的高風險國家"},{"start":10747.46,"end":10749.46,"text":"我們有沒有做一些評估"},{"start":10749.03,"end":10751.03,"text":"你要讓國人知道"},{"start":10751.03,"end":10753.03,"text":"去哪些高風險國家"},{"start":10753.03,"end":10755.03,"text":"可能會受到這個中國"},{"start":10755.03,"end":10757.03,"text":"跨境的這個鎮壓"},{"start":10757.03,"end":10759.03,"text":"對國人在海外的人身安全"},{"start":10759.03,"end":10761.03,"text":"是非常重要"},{"start":10761.03,"end":10763.03,"text":"因為這部分的警示機制應該是外交部"},{"start":10763.03,"end":10765.03,"text":"負責的啦"},{"start":10765.03,"end":10767.03,"text":"現在主要是用疫情或是天災"},{"start":10767.03,"end":10769.03,"text":"來當成警示的標準"},{"start":10769.03,"end":10771.03,"text":"那我個人的理解外交部稍早"},{"start":10771.03,"end":10773.03,"text":"又在先前的討論"},{"start":10773.03,"end":10775.03,"text":"是不是要把這一種可能人身安全"},{"start":10775.03,"end":10777.03,"text":"因為中共跨境鎮壓帶來的風險"},{"start":10777.03,"end":10779.03,"text":"也要做一些評估"},{"start":10779.03,"end":10781.03,"text":"那有在做內部討論"},{"start":10781.03,"end":10783.03,"text":"因為我的問題還有六項"},{"start":10783.03,"end":10785.03,"text":"可能還要大概十分鐘"},{"start":10785.03,"end":10787.03,"text":"但是這一項我都遵守這個時間"},{"start":10787.03,"end":10789.03,"text":"好這個局長先請回"},{"start":10789.03,"end":10791.03,"text":"請這個警政署"},{"start":10791.03,"end":10793.03,"text":"張署長"},{"start":10794.56,"end":10796.56,"text":"署長你好"},{"start":10796.56,"end":10798.56,"text":"署長我們也共事很久了"},{"start":10798.56,"end":10800.56,"text":"你覺得我的質詢"},{"start":10800.26,"end":10802.26,"text":"正向還是負向"},{"start":10802.26,"end":10804.26,"text":"昨天我關心這個"},{"start":10804.26,"end":10806.26,"text":"所謂密入器合法合理使用問題"},{"start":10806.26,"end":10808.26,"text":"我已經關心十年了"},{"start":10809.66,"end":10811.66,"text":"講到這個我當然會覺得我比較激動"},{"start":10812.4,"end":10814.4,"text":"因為我希望說警政署拿出具體的作為"},{"start":10815.06,"end":10817.06,"text":"改善這種狀況"},{"start":10817.83,"end":10819.83,"text":"啊我的質詢會讓你覺得不舒服嗎"},{"start":10821.15,"end":10823.15,"text":"不會"},{"start":10823.15,"end":10825.15,"text":"有沒有收入的感覺"},{"start":10826.89,"end":10828.89,"text":"我覺得很正向"},{"start":10828.89,"end":10830.89,"text":"沒問題"},{"start":10830.89,"end":10832.89,"text":"我是就事論事"},{"start":10832.89,"end":10834.89,"text":"基於我的質詢"},{"start":10834.89,"end":10836.89,"text":"基於我國會議員職責對你的業務進行一些質詢"},{"start":10836.89,"end":10838.89,"text":"沒有問題啊"},{"start":10838.89,"end":10840.89,"text":"好這部分謝謝你"},{"start":10840.89,"end":10842.89,"text":"也希望說針對所謂"},{"start":10842.89,"end":10844.89,"text":"這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11533.46,"end":11535.46,"text":"但是也必須跟委員提到的是"},{"start":11535.46,"end":11537.46,"text":"還是有很多的國際友盟特別是歐洲國家"},{"start":11537.46,"end":11539.46,"text":"對於烏克蘭的立場"},{"start":11539.46,"end":11541.46,"text":"還是很絕對的在支持當中"},{"start":11541.46,"end":11543.46,"text":"那事情還在掩面當中"},{"start":11543.46,"end":11545.46,"text":"我才講說可能不適合"},{"start":11545.46,"end":11547.46,"text":"針對澤倫斯基一個訪談"},{"start":11547.46,"end":11549.46,"text":"一句話來做太多的"},{"start":11549.46,"end":11551.46,"text":"現在就下定論或許太早"},{"start":11551.46,"end":11553.46,"text":"但我想這個整個的走向"},{"start":11553.46,"end":11555.46,"text":"他還是逐步"},{"start":11555.46,"end":11557.46,"text":"他開始鬆綁一部分的經濟制裁"},{"start":11557.46,"end":11559.46,"text":"宣布要裁有"},{"start":11559.46,"end":11561.46,"text":"他也就是一步一步一步"},{"start":11561.46,"end":11563.46,"text":"才開始出現說我可能要透過接受現狀"},{"start":11563.46,"end":11565.46,"text":"這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":11565.46,"end":11567.46,"text":"如果真的結果往正義沒有得彰顯"},{"start":11567.46,"end":11569.46,"text":"這樣的劇本發展"},{"start":11569.46,"end":11571.46,"text":"我覺得我們要好好的思考這件事情"},{"start":11571.46,"end":11573.46,"text":"我不是講說你過去這些東西"},{"start":11573.46,"end":11575.46,"text":"就把它放掉"},{"start":11575.46,"end":11577.46,"text":"就不管或是一定要做怎麼樣"},{"start":11577.46,"end":11579.46,"text":"我不是這個意思"},{"start":11579.46,"end":11581.46,"text":"但我覺得國安團隊"},{"start":11581.46,"end":11583.46,"text":"是考慮軍事"},{"start":11583.46,"end":11585.46,"text":"比如說這不對稱作戰是成功的"},{"start":11585.46,"end":11587.46,"text":"可是當外交的因素"},{"start":11587.46,"end":11589.46,"text":"經濟的因素其他民主國家內部選舉的因素"},{"start":11589.46,"end":11591.46,"text":"介入的時候很有可能現實他就會推著你"},{"start":11591.46,"end":11593.46,"text":"朝向當初不同的劇本"},{"start":11593.46,"end":11595.46,"text":"長出了一個不盡人意的結果"},{"start":11595.46,"end":11597.46,"text":"我覺得這對台灣來講是一個"},{"start":11597.46,"end":11599.46,"text":"蠻嚴峻的一件事情"},{"start":11599.46,"end":11601.46,"text":"我覺得我們都是在嚴肅一對"},{"start":11601.46,"end":11603.46,"text":"不過有另外的角度委員也可以一起來注意"},{"start":11603.46,"end":11605.46,"text":"就是俄國在整個戰事過程當中"},{"start":11605.46,"end":11607.46,"text":"他投入的戰爭成本"},{"start":11607.46,"end":11609.46,"text":"真的是超乎預期"},{"start":11609.46,"end":11611.46,"text":"確實是不對稱的戰爭成本"},{"start":11611.46,"end":11613.46,"text":"但我必須要講大家都講實話"},{"start":11613.46,"end":11615.46,"text":"好像這些經濟的制裁"},{"start":11615.46,"end":11617.46,"text":"他們的人民過苦日子"},{"start":11617.46,"end":11619.46,"text":"死了非常多的人等等"},{"start":11619.46,"end":11621.46,"text":"好像也沒有動搖這些人的決心"},{"start":11621.46,"end":11623.46,"text":"我都覺得這件事情很可怕"},{"start":11623.46,"end":11625.46,"text":"因為國安我們總是從不同的角度"},{"start":11625.46,"end":11627.46,"text":"了解自己的對手可能會做什麼事"},{"start":11627.46,"end":11629.46,"text":"了解他們的作戰意志"},{"start":11629.46,"end":11631.46,"text":"了解全世界各地的變因"},{"start":11631.46,"end":11633.46,"text":"到底是對我們有利還是有害"},{"start":11633.46,"end":11635.46,"text":"這我覺得我們今天要花一點點時間"},{"start":11635.46,"end":11637.46,"text":"我也要聽一聽國安局長的想法"},{"start":11637.46,"end":11639.46,"text":"但是到目前為止對台灣有什麼樣的啟示"},{"start":11639.46,"end":11641.46,"text":"從國安單位看到這件事情"},{"start":11641.46,"end":11643.46,"text":"對我們內部的調度也好"},{"start":11643.46,"end":11645.46,"text":"策略也好衝擊也好"},{"start":11645.46,"end":11647.46,"text":"有沒有分別做了哪樣的分析"},{"start":11647.46,"end":11649.46,"text":"目前是走什麼樣的方向"},{"start":11649.46,"end":11651.46,"text":"我想就這部分來講"},{"start":11651.46,"end":11653.46,"text":"在二戰場上我們對於一些新科技的運用"},{"start":11653.46,"end":11655.46,"text":"還有戰場管理的智能化"},{"start":11655.46,"end":11657.46,"text":"以及我們剛剛所討論到的"},{"start":11657.46,"end":11659.46,"text":"不對稱作戰"},{"start":11659.46,"end":11661.46,"text":"的一些戰爭的形態"},{"start":11661.46,"end":11663.46,"text":"大概不只是台灣才關注"},{"start":11663.46,"end":11665.46,"text":"我想現在全球大家都在關注"},{"start":11665.46,"end":11667.46,"text":"我特別提到了以印太的國家"},{"start":11667.46,"end":11669.46,"text":"包括日本韓國澳洲菲律賓"},{"start":11669.46,"end":11671.46,"text":"未來在一年內"},{"start":11671.46,"end":11673.46,"text":"國防支援的投注大概"},{"start":11673.46,"end":11675.46,"text":"都在這一部分"},{"start":11675.46,"end":11677.46,"text":"我現在跟你講國防我之所以講"},{"start":11677.46,"end":11679.46,"text":"國安局要包山包海的原因就是國防上你當然"},{"start":11679.46,"end":11681.46,"text":"你也只有這條路走了難道氣洩頭強"},{"start":11681.46,"end":11683.46,"text":"我們當然不接受這樣的一個做法"},{"start":11683.46,"end":11685.46,"text":"但請你也要考量外交"},{"start":11686.76,"end":11688.76,"text":"各地地緣政治"},{"start":11688.76,"end":11690.76,"text":"互相的牽動跟一個變化"},{"start":11690.76,"end":11692.76,"text":"因為你是要統領"},{"start":11692.76,"end":11694.76,"text":"全部對不對"},{"start":11694.76,"end":11696.76,"text":"要給予正確觀念的人"},{"start":11696.76,"end":11698.76,"text":"在這個地方的互相變化"},{"start":11698.76,"end":11700.76,"text":"經濟的外交的國防"},{"start":11700.76,"end":11702.76,"text":"這三個重大的議題之間"},{"start":11702.76,"end":11704.76,"text":"要隨時掌握"},{"start":11704.76,"end":11706.76,"text":"然後要隨時給我們整個政府團隊"},{"start":11706.76,"end":11708.76,"text":"最真確的訊息"},{"start":11708.76,"end":11710.76,"text":"然後要做最務實的因應"},{"start":11710.76,"end":11712.76,"text":"這是本席的誠心建議"},{"start":11712.76,"end":11714.76,"text":"希望您做為國安局長可以好好的參考"},{"start":11714.76,"end":11716.76,"text":"相關的國防發展趨勢"},{"start":11716.76,"end":11718.76,"text":"還有全社會任性的建構"},{"start":11718.76,"end":11720.76,"text":"烏克蘭經驗我們會做一些全面的評估"},{"start":11720.76,"end":11722.76,"text":"國防都照做"},{"start":11722.76,"end":11724.76,"text":"我們有意見請評估"},{"start":11724.76,"end":11726.76,"text":"外交跟經濟的變化"},{"start":11726.76,"end":11728.76,"text":"我覺得這一點是國安局要加大力度"},{"start":11728.76,"end":11730.76,"text":"然後你要去想很多時候不見得是"},{"start":11730.76,"end":11732.76,"text":"只有這個劇本"},{"start":11732.76,"end":11734.76,"text":"烏克蘭劇本要有贏的法案"},{"start":11734.76,"end":11736.76,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":11736.76,"end":11738.76,"text":"謝謝紐許廷委員"},{"start":11738.76,"end":11740.76,"text":"接下來我們請宗嘉斌委員"},{"start":11741,"end":11743,"text":"宗嘉斌委員不在"},{"start":11743,"end":11745,"text":"接下來我們請馬文君委員"},{"start":11751.86,"end":11753.86,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩請局長"},{"start":11753.86,"end":11755.86,"text":"蔡局長請"},{"start":11760.55,"end":11762.55,"text":"馬文好"},{"start":11762.55,"end":11764.55,"text":"局長午安"},{"start":11764.55,"end":11766.55,"text":"就今天的這個議題"},{"start":11766.55,"end":11768.55,"text":"我想其實國安局"},{"start":11768.55,"end":11770.55,"text":"不是這個"},{"start":11770.55,"end":11772.55,"text":"國安局相關的業務"},{"start":11772.55,"end":11774.55,"text":"大家的面向當然非常多"},{"start":11774.55,"end":11776.55,"text":"什麼都跟國安有關"},{"start":11776.55,"end":11778.55,"text":"所以就我們時間的關係"},{"start":11778.55,"end":11780.55,"text":"主要我們現在想要探討的是"},{"start":11780.55,"end":11782.55,"text":"在年初國安局曾經有公布"},{"start":11782.55,"end":11784.55,"text":"在114年台灣平均"},{"start":11784.55,"end":11786.55,"text":"每天遭受大概"},{"start":11786.55,"end":11788.55,"text":"260萬次來自大陸的"},{"start":11788.55,"end":11790.55,"text":"網路攻擊"},{"start":11790.55,"end":11792.55,"text":"比前一年還增加6%"},{"start":11792.55,"end":11794.55,"text":"可是在這個同時"},{"start":11794.55,"end":11796.55,"text":"台灣也連續11年"},{"start":11796.55,"end":11800.55,"text":"拿下了受境外甲訊息影響最嚴重的榜首"},{"start":11800.55,"end":11802.55,"text":"那我們今年的狀況"},{"start":11802.55,"end":11804.55,"text":"有比較改善了嗎"},{"start":11804.55,"end":11806.55,"text":"委員指的是那個"},{"start":11806.55,"end":11808.55,"text":"治安還是增益訊息"},{"start":11808.55,"end":11810.55,"text":"治安跟增益訊息"},{"start":11810.55,"end":11812.55,"text":"都有"},{"start":11812.55,"end":11814.55,"text":"治安的部分"},{"start":11814.55,"end":11816.55,"text":"就分開來講"},{"start":11816.55,"end":11818.55,"text":"治安的部分就我們的"},{"start":11818.55,"end":11820.55,"text":"監控的狀況來講"},{"start":11820.55,"end":11822.55,"text":"他沒有減輕弱度"},{"start":11822.55,"end":11824.55,"text":"沒有減輕他的強度"},{"start":11824.55,"end":11826.55,"text":"特別注意的是他治安攻擊的手法"},{"start":11826.55,"end":11828.55,"text":"因為AI工具的運用"},{"start":11828.55,"end":11830.55,"text":"他會變得更有效能"},{"start":11830.55,"end":11832.55,"text":"而且也會針對可能"},{"start":11832.55,"end":11834.55,"text":"我們的一些網安環境的漏洞"},{"start":11834.55,"end":11836.55,"text":"他在查找我們的漏洞"},{"start":11836.55,"end":11838.55,"text":"速度會變得更快"},{"start":11838.55,"end":11840.55,"text":"這會對我們構成一些挑戰"},{"start":11840.55,"end":11842.55,"text":"這大概是治安的部分"},{"start":11842.55,"end":11844.55,"text":"那增益訊息的部分"},{"start":11844.55,"end":11846.55,"text":"那這部分應該以前有跟委員報告過"},{"start":11846.55,"end":11848.55,"text":"這種問題的帳號"},{"start":11848.55,"end":11850.55,"text":"他就是沒有固定的"},{"start":11850.55,"end":11852.55,"text":"一般的社交活動的狀態"},{"start":11852.55,"end":11854.55,"text":"但是他在中共"},{"start":11854.55,"end":11856.55,"text":"官宣媒宣發動敘事的時候"},{"start":11856.55,"end":11858.55,"text":"他馬上跟進"},{"start":11858.55,"end":11860.55,"text":"那我們有一些名單"},{"start":11860.54,"end":11862.54,"text":"問題或異常帳號的活動來講"},{"start":11862.54,"end":11864.54,"text":"確實是大量增加"},{"start":11864.54,"end":11866.54,"text":"今年跟去年同期比"},{"start":11866.54,"end":11868.54,"text":"今年是兩百五十多萬"},{"start":11868.54,"end":11870.54,"text":"去年一百六十幾萬大量增加"},{"start":11870.54,"end":11872.54,"text":"不過這個部分因為"},{"start":11872.54,"end":11874.54,"text":"像假訊息的這個部分"},{"start":11874.54,"end":11876.54,"text":"這個可能到處都有全球各地"},{"start":11876.54,"end":11878.54,"text":"那包括我們台灣自己境內"},{"start":11878.54,"end":11880.54,"text":"其實也是"},{"start":11880.54,"end":11882.54,"text":"拿來用在選舉的工坊上面"},{"start":11882.54,"end":11884.54,"text":"好像也是大有人在"},{"start":11884.54,"end":11886.54,"text":"不過我們現在今天"},{"start":11886.54,"end":11888.54,"text":"我們也希望可以再"},{"start":11888.54,"end":11890.54,"text":"深刻的去討論一下"},{"start":11890.54,"end":11892.54,"text":"就我們剛剛局長有提到"},{"start":11892.54,"end":11894.54,"text":"AI攻擊的部分"},{"start":11894.54,"end":11896.54,"text":"那現在因為他的迭代很迅速"},{"start":11896.54,"end":11898.54,"text":"在七月初的時候"},{"start":11898.54,"end":11900.54,"text":"有外媒跟以色列資安公司披露"},{"start":11900.54,"end":11902.54,"text":"就是境外"},{"start":11902.54,"end":11904.54,"text":"駭客利用公開的AI工具"},{"start":11904.54,"end":11906.54,"text":"打造了可以協同作業的"},{"start":11906.54,"end":11908.54,"text":"自主攻擊系統"},{"start":11908.54,"end":11910.54,"text":"成功的入侵了台灣政府的網站"},{"start":11910.54,"end":11912.54,"text":"他在四天之內"},{"start":11912.54,"end":11914.54,"text":"有十二波協調攻擊的"},{"start":11914.54,"end":11916.54,"text":"狀況底下他成功"},{"start":11916.54,"end":11918.54,"text":"進入台灣政府至少"},{"start":11918.54,"end":11920.54,"text":"八十五個帳號還有"},{"start":11920.54,"end":11922.54,"text":"竊取我們的文件入侵我們的"},{"start":1192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