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2000.17,"text":"國家發展基金管理會執行秘書汪廷安"},{"start":2000.17,"end":2001.17,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":2001.17,"end":2002.17,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":2002.92,"end":2005.92,"text":"國家發展委員會法治協調處處長楊淑玲"},{"start":2005.92,"end":2006.92,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":2006.92,"end":2009.92,"text":"經營部財政發展署主任秘書李淳孝"},{"start":2009.92,"end":2010.92,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":2010.92,"end":2014.92,"text":"財政部國庫署檢認機和蔡慧玲"},{"start":2016.15,"end":2019.15,"text":"好謝謝法務部參事廖江縣"},{"start":2019.98,"end":2020.98,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":2022.28,"end":2028.28,"text":"那今天的協商經營院會決定自經濟跟財政兩個委員會抽出進一步二讀"},{"start":2028.28,"end":2031.28,"text":"並由台灣民眾黨黨團負責召集協商"},{"start":2031.28,"end":2036.28,"text":"那台灣民眾黨團所擬具之產業創新條例第三十條的修"},{"start":2036.57,"end":2041.57,"text":"條文的修正草案以及產業創新條例部分條文的修正草案兩案"},{"start":2041.57,"end":2044.57,"text":"那我們現在開始進行協商"},{"start":2044.57,"end":2046.57,"text":"那是不是以這個"},{"start":2046.57,"end":2048.5699999999997,"text":"台灣民眾黨團提出的修正動議"},{"start":2049.65,"end":2051.65,"text":"為討論的版本基礎"},{"start":2051.65,"end":2054.65,"text":"然後再請各位委員發言"},{"start":2056.01,"end":2058.01,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":2058.1,"end":2061.1,"text":"好那一開始我們是第29條"},{"start":2061.1,"end":2065.1,"text":"那是第一輪好請這個洪委員發言"},{"start":2065.1,"end":2070.1,"text":"好那一二的話呢我們今天的話就是有跟這個國發會在討論過"},{"start":2070.1,"end":2075.1,"text":"所以也就是說在這個委員會我們有討論過了"},{"start":2075.1,"end":2079.1,"text":"所以我們就是用這個我們的修正條文的版本"},{"start":2079.1,"end":2084.1,"text":"那另外的話呢我們也建議就是把國發會的一些"},{"start":2084.1,"end":2088.1,"text":"希望這個法案的修正的一個版本"},{"start":2088.1,"end":2092.1,"text":"這兩個看是不是列入這樣子的並在一起討論"},{"start":2093.59,"end":2095.59,"text":"不非今天有書面資料嗎"},{"start":2095.59,"end":2099.59,"text":"不然就是我請你們發給這個國委員"},{"start":2099.59,"end":2101.59,"text":"都拿到了"},{"start":2104.17,"end":2106.17,"text":"都拿到了"},{"start":2106.17,"end":2108.17,"text":"那第29條應該是"},{"start":2109.55,"end":2111.55,"text":"有其他委員發言嗎"},{"start":2111.61,"end":2113.61,"text":"我們現在就進入"},{"start":2113.61,"end":2115.61,"text":"我同意沒有意見"},{"start":2115.61,"end":2117.61,"text":"沒有意見好謝謝"},{"start":2118.73,"end":2120.73,"text":"那就遵照修正動議"},{"start":2120.73,"end":2122.73,"text":"我現在是以修正動議這個版本"},{"start":2122.73,"end":2124.73,"text":"我討論基礎"},{"start":2125.25,"end":2127.25,"text":"那第29條就是文字等等"},{"start":2127.25,"end":2129.25,"text":"沒有問題"},{"start":2129.14,"end":2131.14,"text":"修正機關"},{"start":2131.05,"end":2133.05,"text":"再表"},{"start":2132.03,"end":2136.03,"text":"那我們就是照民眾黨團所提修正動議通過"},{"start":2136.03,"end":2138.03,"text":"好第29條"},{"start":2138.03,"end":2142.03,"text":"那我們就依照民眾黨團所提的修正動議通過"},{"start":2142.86,"end":2144.86,"text":"好謝謝"},{"start":2145.6,"end":2147.6,"text":"接下來第30條"},{"start":2148.48,"end":2154.48,"text":"第30條的話我看完跟國發會的修正的版本"},{"start":2154.48,"end":2160.48,"text":"那因為國發會他把這個我們那個第三項裡面那個範圍"},{"start":2160.48,"end":2164.48,"text":"因為原本我們的修正但是企業虧損之紓困"},{"start":2164.48,"end":2166.48,"text":"那他改成企業紓困"},{"start":2166.48,"end":2171.48,"text":"那第二點投資企業生產活動本黨團的版本是中國大陸之企業"},{"start":2171.48,"end":2174.48,"text":"他改成位於大陸地區之企業"},{"start":2174.48,"end":2176.48,"text":"那我們就是"},{"start":2177.26,"end":2181.26,"text":"就是認同這個國發會的一個修正的一個版本這樣子"},{"start":2182.96,"end":2184.96,"text":"中委員"},{"start":2184.75,"end":2186.75,"text":"政委員"},{"start":2186.75,"end":2188.75,"text":"好"},{"start":2190.65,"end":2194.65,"text":"那我們就按照國發會的建議條文通過"},{"start":2196.76,"end":2199.76,"text":"好我們現在進行第30條之一"},{"start":2199.76,"end":2202.76,"text":"好第30條之一的話"},{"start":2202.76,"end":2206.76,"text":"我們的修正的一個動議的版本"},{"start":2206.76,"end":2210.76,"text":"主要的話是根據這個原本"},{"start":2210.76,"end":2215.76,"text":"這個他們的一個國際基金管理條例的細節辦法把它訂出來"},{"start":2215.76,"end":2221.76,"text":"那現在的話也就是說在人員招聘之12345678"},{"start":2222.58,"end":2224.58,"text":"在第八項的後"},{"start":2224.58,"end":2228.58,"text":"第八條的這個後面學者專家人4人之6人"},{"start":2228.58,"end":2232.58,"text":"有立法院各政黨團依其席次比例推薦之"},{"start":2232.58,"end":2235.58,"text":"每一黨團至少應有一人"},{"start":2235.58,"end":2238.58,"text":"那前項第八塊你的學者專家"},{"start":2238.58,"end":2241.58,"text":"那麼聘期是兩年期滿的續聘之"},{"start":2241.58,"end":2244.58,"text":"那等於就是把我們那個操作的辦法"},{"start":2244.58,"end":2247.58,"text":"管理辦法把它放到這裡來"},{"start":2247.58,"end":2248.58,"text":"那這裡頭的話呢"},{"start":2248.58,"end":2253.58,"text":"主要我們這邊增加的就是受指派代理出席的適當人員"},{"start":2253.58,"end":2256.58,"text":"不得已出席為了三分之一"},{"start":2256.58,"end":2260.58,"text":"因為有一些機關首長的這樣的出席率太低"},{"start":2260.58,"end":2263.58,"text":"所以他指派的我們不希望太多的這個"},{"start":2263.58,"end":2266.58,"text":"沒有表達意見的去參與這樣的會議"},{"start":2266.58,"end":2268.58,"text":"那另外的話"},{"start":2268.89,"end":2272.89,"text":"其中有一個是我們管理會議的記錄因主動公開"},{"start":2272.89,"end":2276.89,"text":"這是以上我們的這個修正動議的版本"},{"start":2276.89,"end":2280.89,"text":"那因為國發會的這個修正條文"},{"start":2280.89,"end":2281.89,"text":"跟我們差比較大"},{"start":2281.89,"end":2286.89,"text":"是不是可以請國發會說明一下他們的修正的一個條文"},{"start":2286.89,"end":2287.89,"text":"第30條之一"},{"start":2287.89,"end":2289.89,"text":"好請國發會發言"},{"start":2296.35,"end":2298.35,"text":"主席還有各位委員大家好"},{"start":2298.35,"end":2302.35,"text":"那對於這一條我們會建議就是說"},{"start":2302.35,"end":2307.35,"text":"本次修法新增政黨推薦參與制立法議席"},{"start":2307.35,"end":2309.35,"text":"那國發會予以尊重"},{"start":2309.35,"end":2314.35,"text":"但是為了使推薦專家學者管道能有更多元"},{"start":2314.35,"end":2319.35,"text":"那是不是可以建議保留行政機關的學者專家推薦名額"},{"start":2319.35,"end":2326.35,"text":"以黨團推薦人數不低於總委員總數1%為原則"},{"start":2326.35,"end":2328.35,"text":"那建議條文內容如附"},{"start":2334.25,"end":2338.25,"text":"那好請各黨團代表發言"},{"start":2338.25,"end":2344.25,"text":"首先這一個的話我想是這個就第一個部分就是說"},{"start":2344.25,"end":2349.25,"text":"國發會的修正就是由國家發展委員主任委員兼任"},{"start":2349.25,"end":2352.25,"text":"我現在看的是國發會的修正條文"},{"start":2352.25,"end":2355.25,"text":"那他的話其中一人副召集經濟部長兼任"},{"start":2355.25,"end":2359.25,"text":"其餘的行政院長就中央主管首長跟學者專家"},{"start":2359.25,"end":2361.25,"text":"四資六人派聘兼職"},{"start":2361.25,"end":2367.25,"text":"那這個是比原本的管理辦法把各部會首長都訂出來的話"},{"start":2367.25,"end":2370.25,"text":"這個東西的彈性會比較小"},{"start":2370.25,"end":2374.25,"text":"那我可以認同國發會前面這一段的一個修正"},{"start":2376.56,"end":2380.56,"text":"另外的話呢因為之前在這個我們委員會討論的時候"},{"start":2380.56,"end":2382.56,"text":"中嘉賓委員也發言就是說"},{"start":2382.56,"end":2385.56,"text":"因為如果黨團數超過幾個的話"},{"start":2385.56,"end":2387.56,"text":"那這個人數越來越多也不是很好"},{"start":2387.56,"end":2391.56,"text":"所以國發會的這個條文的修正就是"},{"start":2391.56,"end":2395.56,"text":"在第二項這邊前項學者專家那個中間就不念"},{"start":2395.56,"end":2400.56,"text":"那最後就是每一黨團至少應有推薦委員一人"},{"start":2400.56,"end":2403.56,"text":"那我覺得這樣子的東西也有反映出這個"},{"start":2403.56,"end":2407.56,"text":"比如說黨團黨代表的一個效果"},{"start":2407.56,"end":2412.56,"text":"所以這個我也可以認同國發會的這樣的修正的一個條文"},{"start":2413.43,"end":2417.43,"text":"然後後面的話其中有一個不一樣是"},{"start":2417.43,"end":2419.43,"text":"管理會的會議紀錄因主動公開"},{"start":2419.43,"end":2422.43,"text":"因為他是把它挪到你那個是挪到第一"},{"start":2424.4,"end":2425.4,"text":"對幾條?"},{"start":2426.07,"end":2427.07,"text":"30條至5嘛"},{"start":2427.07,"end":2429.07,"text":"所以他有原保留我們的精神"},{"start":2429.07,"end":2431.07,"text":"然後挪到30條至5去了"},{"start":2431.07,"end":2434.07,"text":"所以我30條至1的話"},{"start":2434.07,"end":2440.07,"text":"我是可以接受國發會這樣子的修正的一個條文的版本這樣子"},{"start":2442.17,"end":2444.17,"text":"這樣好不好既然有部分挪到30條至5"},{"start":2444.17,"end":2446.17,"text":"是不是我們30條至5一併處理好不好"},{"start":2446.17,"end":2448.17,"text":"30條至5一併放進來看"},{"start":2448.17,"end":2450.17,"text":"這樣才完整嘛"},{"start":2450.76,"end":2454.76,"text":"好那我們現在一邊看第30條之語"},{"start":2457.93,"end":2461.93,"text":"好30條至5的話主要是在於是說"},{"start":2461.93,"end":2465.93,"text":"因為這個國發基金的一個收支比例等等"},{"start":2465.93,"end":2467.93,"text":"管理會的市股的一個政策"},{"start":2467.93,"end":2473.93,"text":"在當時的話也就是說我們要全程的錄音錄影妥善的一個保存"},{"start":2473.93,"end":2477.93,"text":"那製作會議的詳實的紀錄等等的"},{"start":2477.93,"end":2480.93,"text":"那前項詳實紀錄是會議紀錄"},{"start":2480.93,"end":2482.93,"text":"會議錄音錄影的意義封存"},{"start":2482.93,"end":2486.93,"text":"經管理機關或管理會的一個同意"},{"start":2486.93,"end":2488.93,"text":"使得拆封查閱"},{"start":2488.93,"end":2493.93,"text":"當立法院調查委員會調查專案所依法行使職權的話"},{"start":2493.93,"end":2494.93,"text":"不再此限"},{"start":2494.93,"end":2499.93,"text":"也就是說我們並不是要去把這個審查委員的意見公開"},{"start":2499.93,"end":2502.93,"text":"然後只是說有需要的時候"},{"start":2502.93,"end":2503.93,"text":"對不對我們再公開"},{"start":2503.93,"end":2509.93,"text":"那這個可不可以再請國發會說明一下你們這個30條至5的修正的狀況"},{"start":2511.04,"end":2513.04,"text":"30條至5這個部分就是說"},{"start":2513.04,"end":2519.04,"text":"國發基金現行管理會評審會市股政策評估會等"},{"start":2519.04,"end":2525.04,"text":"會議都已經有全程錄音並製作會議紀錄妥善保存"},{"start":2525.04,"end":2530.04,"text":"並沒有資料不提以致難以釐清權責之情勢"},{"start":2530.04,"end":2536.04,"text":"那管理會的任務包含投資案件的審定"},{"start":2536.04,"end":2540.04,"text":"若有投資案件未通過管理會核定"},{"start":2540.04,"end":2543.04,"text":"主動公開管理會會議紀錄"},{"start":2543.04,"end":2548.04,"text":"恐怕會影響該企業投資人後續增資的信心"},{"start":2548.04,"end":2550.04,"text":"增加投資的困難度"},{"start":2550.04,"end":2553.04,"text":"對企業造成負面的影響"},{"start":2553.04,"end":2556.04,"text":"一些建議著修條文就如復"},{"start":2557.24,"end":2559.24,"text":"好所以你有維持原本的精神"},{"start":2559.24,"end":2563.24,"text":"就是你有完全的全程錄音錄影保留"},{"start":2563.24,"end":2567.24,"text":"但是如果將來比如說有調查的必要的時候"},{"start":2567.24,"end":2569.24,"text":"是得以這樣子的公開"},{"start":2573.15,"end":2578.15,"text":"對對對就是按照我們那個時候之前的那個狀況"},{"start":2578.15,"end":2581.15,"text":"OK好這樣我可以接受"},{"start":2581.15,"end":2583.15,"text":"兩位委員"},{"start":2583.51,"end":2585.51,"text":"好"},{"start":2591.51,"end":2593.51,"text":"民眾黨這邊是不是也同意"},{"start":2594.75,"end":2596.75,"text":"3030條之5"},{"start":2599.31,"end":2601.31,"text":"按你按你你看30條"},{"start":2601.31,"end":2603.31,"text":"OK好OK好"},{"start":2603.46,"end":2606.46,"text":"30條之5我也覺得可以接受"},{"start":2606.46,"end":2609.46,"text":"既然看到30條之5是不是3條知識就在旁邊"},{"start":2609.46,"end":2611.46,"text":"我看這更多的陳述很小"},{"start":2611.46,"end":2613.46,"text":"只有前5年3年5年"},{"start":2613.46,"end":2615.46,"text":"要不要說一併說明一下"},{"start":2617.6,"end":2619.6,"text":"那請國發先說明"},{"start":2619.6,"end":2621.6,"text":"那30條知識這個部分"},{"start":2621.6,"end":2625.6,"text":"因為全序不已經在114年12月12日"},{"start":2625.6,"end":2630.6,"text":"韓市將投資行為納入公務員服務法的規範"},{"start":2630.6,"end":2633.6,"text":"國發基金的專職人員已適用"},{"start":2633.6,"end":2638.6,"text":"通過的這個旋轉門條款以及起韓韓市這樣子"},{"start":2638.6,"end":2640.6,"text":"那提案內內容比"},{"start":2640.6,"end":2642.6,"text":"就原就原本的那個"},{"start":2642.6,"end":2646.6,"text":"提案內容是比較擴大那個旋轉門條款的"},{"start":2646.6,"end":2648.6,"text":"對象跟範圍"},{"start":2648.6,"end":2650.6,"text":"那這邊是不是建議是不是"},{"start":2650.6,"end":2653.6,"text":"審著公正聯名之重要公益"},{"start":2653.6,"end":2657.6,"text":"與人民選擇職業自由兼的平衡"},{"start":2657.6,"end":2661.6,"text":"那回歸公務員服務法第16條的規定辦理"},{"start":2661.6,"end":2663.6,"text":"那建議修正入附"},{"start":2664.8,"end":2666.8,"text":"這一點請"},{"start":2666.8,"end":2670.8,"text":"這個就是我們把原本我們的離職5年內"},{"start":2670.8,"end":2675.8,"text":"然後配合旋轉門現在那個全序不的條款"},{"start":2675.8,"end":2679.8,"text":"改成是配合全序不的那個韓市"},{"start":2679.8,"end":2681.8,"text":"變成是3年"},{"start":2681.8,"end":2683.8,"text":"然後第二個是"},{"start":2683.8,"end":2687.8,"text":"任職期間自洗他人名義等等"},{"start":2687.8,"end":2689.8,"text":"這一塊就是穿著我們的規定"},{"start":2692.64,"end":2694.64,"text":"兩項兩年新洗又進去好"},{"start":2694.64,"end":2697.64,"text":"那這樣子我可以同意這樣子的修正"},{"start":2698.53,"end":2699.53,"text":"沒有意見"},{"start":2699.53,"end":2701.53,"text":"政委員沒有意見"},{"start":2703.01,"end":2705.01,"text":"我們再回到剛剛"},{"start":2709.51,"end":2710.51,"text":"30條之一"},{"start":2710.51,"end":2713.51,"text":"那個因為剛剛洪委員有提到"},{"start":2713.51,"end":2715.51,"text":"我之前在審查會的意見"},{"start":2715.51,"end":2717.51,"text":"我還是要表達一下在委員會的時候"},{"start":2717.51,"end":2719.51,"text":"因為這個是個數學的問題"},{"start":2719.51,"end":2722.51,"text":"因為我們目前委員是11人到13人"},{"start":2722.51,"end":2725.51,"text":"那麼一人為召集人"},{"start":2725.51,"end":2727.51,"text":"這個是由主任委員兼任這個不用動"},{"start":2727.51,"end":2730.51,"text":"就是剩下的12人"},{"start":2730.51,"end":2734.51,"text":"那我們在第三第二項說"},{"start":2734.51,"end":2737.51,"text":"各黨團推薦的總人數"},{"start":2737.51,"end":2739.51,"text":"不得少於總數1%"},{"start":2739.51,"end":2740.51,"text":"如果以13人來講"},{"start":2740.51,"end":2742.51,"text":"總人數就要5個"},{"start":2742.75,"end":2743.75,"text":"那這5個當中"},{"start":2743.75,"end":2745.75,"text":"每一黨團要再推薦1個"},{"start":2745.75,"end":2746.75,"text":"那時候我就提到"},{"start":2746.75,"end":2748.75,"text":"你這樣子如果立法院有5個黨團"},{"start":2750.14,"end":2751.14,"text":"那就"},{"start":2751.91,"end":2754.91,"text":"當然我們知道就是黨團的規模有大有小"},{"start":2754.91,"end":2757.91,"text":"我們當然知道民眾黨團的體育是因為"},{"start":2757.91,"end":2759.91,"text":"要對於規模較小的黨團"},{"start":2759.91,"end":2761.91,"text":"還是有最少的一個保障"},{"start":2761.91,"end":2764.91,"text":"但是基於總額就這麼多的情況之下"},{"start":2764.91,"end":2765.91,"text":"你要是未來"},{"start":2765.91,"end":2768.91,"text":"我們立法院過去黨團有4個黨團"},{"start":2768.91,"end":2770.91,"text":"那如果大家4個黨團會怎麼分配"},{"start":2771.23,"end":2772.23,"text":"就"},{"start":2773.04,"end":2775.04,"text":"3席的政黨1席推薦1個"},{"start":2775.04,"end":2777.04,"text":"5席的政黨推薦1個"},{"start":2777.04,"end":2778.04,"text":"然後呢"},{"start":2778.04,"end":2782.04,"text":"4、50席的當政黨1個推薦2個"},{"start":2782.04,"end":2783.04,"text":"1個推薦1個"},{"start":2783.04,"end":2786.04,"text":"那你會讓50幾席的跟40幾席的政黨"},{"start":2786.04,"end":2788.04,"text":"在第10屆的時候"},{"start":2788.04,"end":2789.04,"text":"政委員也在嘛"},{"start":2789.73,"end":2792.73,"text":"對一個是推薦2個一個推薦1個對不對"},{"start":2792.73,"end":2795.73,"text":"是50席的推薦2個40席的跟"},{"start":2796.59,"end":2798.59,"text":"5席的跟3席的都各推薦1個"},{"start":2799.35,"end":2801.35,"text":"那這種情況之下"},{"start":2801.35,"end":2803.35,"text":"也真的讓人家很傷腦筋"},{"start":2803.35,"end":2805.35,"text":"所以是不是這個再想一下"},{"start":2805.35,"end":2807.35,"text":"我們看看有沒有在什麼"},{"start":2807.35,"end":2809.35,"text":"比較兩邊可以兼顧的方式"},{"start":2809.35,"end":2811.35,"text":"我是認同說民眾黨"},{"start":2811.35,"end":2813.35,"text":"基於說政黨的規模"},{"start":2813.35,"end":2815.35,"text":"我們還是要有一個保障"},{"start":2815.35,"end":2816.35,"text":"但是怎麼樣去表達"},{"start":2816.35,"end":2818.35,"text":"也不會讓其他的政黨覺得"},{"start":2818.35,"end":2819.35,"text":"吃了很大的虧"},{"start":2819.35,"end":2821.35,"text":"是不是我們先把那個"},{"start":2821.35,"end":2823.35,"text":"另外有什麼30條資深也先看一下"},{"start":2823.35,"end":2824.35,"text":"好不好"},{"start":2824.35,"end":2825.35,"text":"我們要想想看"},{"start":2826.08,"end":2829.08,"text":"這樣嗎 這樣的政政行為你代表第一大黨"},{"start":2829.08,"end":2832.08,"text":"你也可以思考一下就是說"},{"start":2833.8,"end":2835.8,"text":"總結不在民進黨"},{"start":2835.8,"end":2836.8,"text":"是國民黨"},{"start":2836.8,"end":2838.8,"text":"我們兩個我們一個都差很多"},{"start":2838.8,"end":2840.8,"text":"他們兩個我們一個"},{"start":2840.8,"end":2841.8,"text":"用代表性來說是"},{"start":2842.41,"end":2845.41,"text":"這個問題其實就是很難解"},{"start":2845.41,"end":2848.41,"text":"因為這個目前這樣的一個條款"},{"start":2848.41,"end":2851.41,"text":"適合現在就是立法院的生態"},{"start":2851.41,"end":2853.41,"text":"第11屆的生態"},{"start":2853.41,"end":2854.41,"text":"那第12屆的生態"},{"start":2854.41,"end":2856.41,"text":"不知道會變成怎麼樣子"},{"start":2856.41,"end":2858.41,"text":"所以鍾嘉斌委員講的那狀態"},{"start":2858.41,"end":2859.41,"text":"其實就有可能會發生"},{"start":2859.41,"end":2860.41,"text":"不過我在想說"},{"start":2860.41,"end":2863.41,"text":"保障每一個就是政黨"},{"start":2863.41,"end":2865.41,"text":"他推薦的人這件事情是"},{"start":2865.41,"end":2867.41,"text":"我覺得應該是肯定的"},{"start":2867.41,"end":2868.41,"text":"那第二個狀態就是說"},{"start":2868.41,"end":2869.41,"text":"因為他畢竟是"},{"start":2869.41,"end":2871.41,"text":"國發基金的委員這個部分"},{"start":2871.41,"end":2873.41,"text":"我相信如果說"},{"start":2873.41,"end":2877.41,"text":"各政黨基於專業在推薦人的時候"},{"start":2877.41,"end":2879.41,"text":"因為國發基金這個委員本來就是"},{"start":2879.41,"end":2880.41,"text":"希望說能夠減少"},{"start":2880.41,"end":2882.41,"text":"就是政治的一些影響力"},{"start":2882.41,"end":2884.41,"text":"就專業度來講的時候"},{"start":2884.41,"end":2885.41,"text":"那我在想說"},{"start":2885.41,"end":2886.41,"text":"如果還想不出來"},{"start":2886.41,"end":2888.41,"text":"最好的一個方式的時候"},{"start":2888.41,"end":2889.41,"text":"我覺得這樣子的版本"},{"start":2889.41,"end":2890.41,"text":"我覺得是可以接受的"},{"start":2892.14,"end":2893.14,"text":"主席要不要我們先從"},{"start":2893.14,"end":2895.14,"text":"其他有爭議的像30條之3"},{"start":2895.14,"end":2896.14,"text":"我再想想看"},{"start":2896.14,"end":2898.14,"text":"其實我認為對於"},{"start":2898.14,"end":2900.14,"text":"規模大小不同的政黨"},{"start":2900.14,"end":2901.14,"text":"都應該考量到他們的立場"},{"start":2901.14,"end":2902.14,"text":"這個我認同"},{"start":2902.28,"end":2904.28,"text":"那是不是我們30條之3看一下"},{"start":2904.28,"end":2905.28,"text":"我看文字很少嘛"},{"start":2907.02,"end":2910.02,"text":"我們等於就先大體看過一次"},{"start":2910.02,"end":2912.02,"text":"30條之3"},{"start":2912.88,"end":2915.88,"text":"那個30條之3的話"},{"start":2915.88,"end":2917.88,"text":"我是比較堅持"},{"start":2917.88,"end":2919.88,"text":"因為這一個"},{"start":2919.88,"end":2920.88,"text":"不是"},{"start":2920.88,"end":2922.88,"text":"因為這個地方是等於是說"},{"start":2922.88,"end":2924.88,"text":"我們是主要是這個東西"},{"start":2924.88,"end":2925.88,"text":"參與投資"},{"start":2925.88,"end":2927.88,"text":"我們是把這個第一階段"},{"start":2927.88,"end":2928.88,"text":"第二階段"},{"start":2928.88,"end":2931.88,"text":"這個是原本國發基金的一個辦法"},{"start":2931.88,"end":2932.88,"text":"那只不過是說"},{"start":2932.88,"end":2934.88,"text":"在這裡頭的這個辦法"},{"start":2934.88,"end":2936.88,"text":"其實都行之有年"},{"start":2936.88,"end":2938.88,"text":"1234這幾個都沒有問題"},{"start":2938.88,"end":2940.88,"text":"現在我們只是加了一個"},{"start":2940.88,"end":2942.88,"text":"人像投資署第30條"},{"start":2942.88,"end":2945.88,"text":"制第一項第5款的投資者"},{"start":2945.88,"end":2947.88,"text":"除申請能提出投資申請"},{"start":2947.88,"end":2949.88,"text":"跟投資計畫書"},{"start":2949.88,"end":2951.88,"text":"中央目的事業主管機關"},{"start":2951.88,"end":2953.88,"text":"應並提出報告"},{"start":2953.88,"end":2955.88,"text":"並提出這個評估的報告"},{"start":2963.59,"end":2964.59,"text":"民眾"},{"start":2965.59,"end":2967.59,"text":"民眾黨團的這個第一"},{"start":2967.59,"end":2969.59,"text":"30條之5嗎"},{"start":2969.9,"end":2971.9,"text":"30條之3"},{"start":2975.26,"end":2977.26,"text":"倒數第二項"},{"start":2977.14,"end":2979.14,"text":"沒有這是那個國發會的"},{"start":2979.14,"end":2981.14,"text":"這是修正動議"},{"start":2981.14,"end":2983.14,"text":"民眾黨修正動議"},{"start":2983.68,"end":2985.68,"text":"我們現在就來看看"},{"start":2985.68,"end":2987.68,"text":"我們現在就來看看"},{"start":2987.68,"end":2989.68,"text":"我們現在就來看看"},{"start":2989.68,"end":2991.68,"text":"我們現在就來看看"},{"start":2991.68,"end":2993.68,"text":"我們現在就來看看"},{"start":2993.68,"end":2995.68,"text":"我們現在就來看看"},{"start":2995.68,"end":2997.68,"text":"我們現在就來看看"},{"start":2997.68,"end":2999.68,"text":"我們現在就來看看"},{"start":2999.68,"end":3001.68,"text":"我們現在就來看看"},{"start":3001.68,"end":3003.68,"text":"我們現在就來看看"},{"start":3003.68,"end":3005.68,"text":"我們現在就來看看"},{"start":3005.68,"end":3007.68,"text":"我們現在就來看看"},{"start":3007.68,"end":3009.68,"text":"我們現在就來看看"},{"start":3009.68,"end":3011.68,"text":"我們現在就來看看"},{"start":2984.33,"end":2986.33,"text":"我們現在就來看看"},{"start":2986.33,"end":2988.33,"text":"我們現在就來看看"},{"start":2988.33,"end":2990.33,"text":"我們現在就來看看"},{"start":2990.33,"end":2992.33,"text":"我們現在就來看看"},{"start":2992.33,"end":2994.33,"text":"我們現在就來看看"},{"start":2994.33,"end":2996.33,"text":"我們現在就來看看"},{"start":2996.33,"end":2998.33,"text":"我們現在就來看看"},{"start":2998.33,"end":3000.33,"text":"我們現在就來看看"},{"start":3000.33,"end":3002.33,"text":"我們現在就來看看"},{"start":3002.33,"end":3004.33,"text":"我們現在就來看看"},{"start":3004.33,"end":3006.33,"text":"我們現在就來看看"},{"start":3006.33,"end":3008.33,"text":"我們現在就來看看"},{"start":3008.33,"end":3010.33,"text":"我們現在就來看看"},{"start":3010.33,"end":3012.33,"text":"我們現在就來看看"},{"start":2986.45,"end":2988.45,"text":"你們用30就是3喔"},{"start":2990.76,"end":2992.76,"text":"那是現行條文"},{"start":2992.76,"end":2994.76,"text":"他們的提案是支武"},{"start":2995.7,"end":2997.7,"text":"修正動議改成支三"},{"start":2997.7,"end":2999.7,"text":"要找到哪裡改成支三"},{"start":2999.7,"end":3001.7,"text":"等一下那個條文是不是修出來"},{"start":3001.7,"end":3003.7,"text":"你看念的 我現在是用那個"},{"start":3003.7,"end":3005.7,"text":"剛剛發的國發會發的"},{"start":3005.7,"end":3007.7,"text":"剛剛發的國發會發的"},{"start":3007.7,"end":3009.7,"text":"30支3"},{"start":3009.7,"end":3011.7,"text":"是3"},{"start":3011.7,"end":3013.7,"text":"你剛剛念的是這個嗎"},{"start":3013.7,"end":3015.7,"text":"30支3嗎 30支3"},{"start":3015.93,"end":3017.93,"text":"30支3是國發會的"},{"start":3017.93,"end":3019.93,"text":"那民眾黨的修正是在哪裡"},{"start":3019.93,"end":3021.93,"text":"那民眾黨的修正是在哪裡"},{"start":3023.63,"end":3025.63,"text":"那民眾黨的修正是在哪裡"},{"start":3028.25,"end":3030.25,"text":"這個"},{"start":3030.25,"end":3032.25,"text":"這個框架是什麼"},{"start":3032.25,"end":3034.25,"text":"這個框架是現行條文"},{"start":3034.25,"end":3036.25,"text":"現行條文"},{"start":3036.25,"end":3038.25,"text":"那我們看30條是3"},{"start":3038.33,"end":3040.33,"text":"30條支31階段2階段"},{"start":3040.33,"end":3042.33,"text":"對 那個是照原來的辦法"},{"start":3042.33,"end":3044.33,"text":"對 那個是照原來的辦法"},{"start":3044.33,"end":3046.33,"text":"只是說 等於是前"},{"start":3046.33,"end":3048.33,"text":"第30條支第一項第5款的投資者"},{"start":3048.33,"end":3050.33,"text":"對對對"},{"start":3050.33,"end":3052.33,"text":"倒數第二項"},{"start":3052.37,"end":3054.37,"text":"對 這個原則主要是說"},{"start":3054.37,"end":3056.37,"text":"因為他在行政院的投資是"},{"start":3056.37,"end":3058.37,"text":"比如說像經濟部"},{"start":3058.37,"end":3060.37,"text":"或者是什麼交通部"},{"start":3060.37,"end":3062.37,"text":"那他提出去的時候"},{"start":3062.37,"end":3064.37,"text":"那會造成是行政院"},{"start":3064.37,"end":3066.37,"text":"合作委員就下到國發基金的"},{"start":3066.37,"end":3068.37,"text":"職委會類是這樣子"},{"start":3068.37,"end":3070.37,"text":"那那個東西就沒有經過一個比較實質的"},{"start":3070.37,"end":3072.37,"text":"評估審查"},{"start":3072.37,"end":3074.37,"text":"所以我們是希望是說"},{"start":3074.37,"end":3076.37,"text":"如果是屬於這樣子的部分"},{"start":3076.37,"end":3078.37,"text":"他如果投資申請跟投資計畫"},{"start":3078.37,"end":3080.37,"text":"輸的時候 那中央目的"},{"start":3080.37,"end":3082.37,"text":"就是這個主管機關就是一併提出他的評估報告"},{"start":3082.37,"end":3084.37,"text":"就是這個主要當時也是"},{"start":3084.37,"end":3086.37,"text":"就是這個主要當時也是"},{"start":3086.37,"end":3088.37,"text":"因為除了這個議題之外"},{"start":3088.37,"end":3090.37,"text":"主要是在當時來講"},{"start":3090.37,"end":3092.37,"text":"像這個以前這個民進黨"},{"start":3092.37,"end":3094.37,"text":"那個潘孟安秘書長"},{"start":3094.37,"end":3096.37,"text":"他那時候我記得也"},{"start":3096.37,"end":3098.37,"text":"有發生就是說98年那個時候"},{"start":3098.37,"end":3100.37,"text":"在審這個經濟部的時候"},{"start":3100.37,"end":3102.37,"text":"他就是希望是說"},{"start":3102.37,"end":3104.37,"text":"不能成為紓困基金跟"},{"start":3104.37,"end":3106.37,"text":"官商勾結的溫床"},{"start":3106.37,"end":3108.37,"text":"所以在這個地方來講"},{"start":3108.37,"end":3110.37,"text":"當時針對國發基金"},{"start":3110.37,"end":3112.37,"text":"挹注TIMC的這樣子的公司"},{"start":3112.37,"end":3114.37,"text":"也就是那時候薛明志當董事長"},{"start":3114.37,"end":3116.37,"text":"他做成了一個主決議"},{"start":3116.37,"end":3118.37,"text":"就是說你行政院核定的東西"},{"start":3118.37,"end":3120.37,"text":"第一任產業再造計畫"},{"start":3120.37,"end":3122.37,"text":"他是要求經濟部要"},{"start":3122.37,"end":3124.37,"text":"停止本計畫的推動"},{"start":3124.37,"end":3126.37,"text":"並不得向國發基金申請"},{"start":3126.37,"end":3128.37,"text":"也就是說我們並不是要"},{"start":3128.37,"end":3130.37,"text":"去阻止 而是讓說"},{"start":3130.37,"end":3132.37,"text":"讓行政院的他核准了"},{"start":3132.37,"end":3134.37,"text":"經濟部的一個比如說什麼"},{"start":3134.37,"end":3136.37,"text":"重大事業投資計畫"},{"start":3136.37,"end":3138.37,"text":"並不把這一個這樣子的評估的報告"},{"start":3138.37,"end":3140.37,"text":"也送到職委會來"},{"start":3140.37,"end":3142.37,"text":"一併這樣子看這個"},{"start":3142.37,"end":3144.37,"text":"行政院報告是不是當時"},{"start":3144.37,"end":3146.37,"text":"經濟部是合理的"},{"start":3146.37,"end":3148.37,"text":"因為有時候行政院他可能沒有那麼多"},{"start":3148.37,"end":3150.37,"text":"的學者專家或者是"},{"start":3150.37,"end":3152.37,"text":"創投的公司顧問公司去幫他看"},{"start":3152.37,"end":3154.37,"text":"所以這個只是多一個"},{"start":3154.37,"end":3156.37,"text":"這樣子的一個投資的一個"},{"start":3156.37,"end":3158.37,"text":"做一個評估"},{"start":3158.37,"end":3160.37,"text":"並不是要去說做一個這樣子的"},{"start":3160.37,"end":3162.37,"text":"否決"},{"start":3161.82,"end":3163.82,"text":"好那我看懂了"},{"start":3163.82,"end":3165.82,"text":"就是我看到了國發會的建議意見"},{"start":3165.82,"end":3167.82,"text":"他的30條之3"},{"start":3167.82,"end":3169.82,"text":"就是兩項"},{"start":3169.82,"end":3171.82,"text":"那看起來他把前面的"},{"start":3171.82,"end":3173.82,"text":"1234"},{"start":3173.82,"end":3175.82,"text":"那四款他都東東並在"},{"start":3175.82,"end":3177.82,"text":"第一項裡面"},{"start":3177.82,"end":3179.82,"text":"但是這裡面的倒數第二項"},{"start":3179.82,"end":3181.82,"text":"前項投資數第30條"},{"start":3181.82,"end":3183.82,"text":"第一項第五款"},{"start":3183.82,"end":3185.82,"text":"是他放在第二項了"},{"start":3185.82,"end":3187.82,"text":"那第二項的部分我看起來"},{"start":3187.82,"end":3189.82,"text":"他的內容是比較簡短"},{"start":3189.82,"end":3191.82,"text":"中央目的事業主管機關"},{"start":3191.82,"end":3193.82,"text":"與報請行政院"},{"start":3193.82,"end":3195.82,"text":"專案核准時"},{"start":3196.97,"end":3198.97,"text":"因並附評估報告"},{"start":3198.97,"end":3200.97,"text":"並於核准後與管理"},{"start":3200.97,"end":3202.97,"text":"會報告但是呢如果以"},{"start":3202.97,"end":3204.97,"text":"剛剛洪委員所說的呢"},{"start":3204.97,"end":3206.97,"text":"不是在核准時喔他是說"},{"start":3206.97,"end":3208.97,"text":"除申請人提出投資"},{"start":3208.97,"end":3210.97,"text":"申請及投資計劃書"},{"start":3210.97,"end":3212.97,"text":"中央目的事業主管機關"},{"start":3212.97,"end":3214.97,"text":"因並提評估報告"},{"start":3214.97,"end":3216.97,"text":"還要在一前項"},{"start":3216.97,"end":3218.97,"text":"第二款至第四款的程序再"},{"start":3218.97,"end":3220.97,"text":"跑一次"},{"start":3220.41,"end":3222.41,"text":"所以我在想說是不是請國外說明一下"},{"start":3222.41,"end":3224.41,"text":"因為這個民眾黨洪委員的"},{"start":3224.41,"end":3226.41,"text":"意見就是他們前面有四款"},{"start":3226.41,"end":3228.41,"text":"這四款呢在國外意見"},{"start":3228.41,"end":3230.41,"text":"是沒有直接要進入到"},{"start":3230.41,"end":3232.41,"text":"母法的條文可能是你們"},{"start":3232.41,"end":3234.41,"text":"定在你們的執法當中"},{"start":3234.41,"end":3236.41,"text":"那個程序那四款的程序"},{"start":3236.41,"end":3238.41,"text":"但是呢在第二項的時候呢"},{"start":3238.41,"end":3240.41,"text":"洪委員意思是說還要再把那四項"},{"start":3240.41,"end":3242.41,"text":"的四款的程序再跑一次"},{"start":3242.41,"end":3244.41,"text":"你們認為是說要附評估報告"},{"start":3244.41,"end":3246.41,"text":"就好了這個差異啊"},{"start":3246.41,"end":3248.41,"text":"那麼說明一下"},{"start":3247.46,"end":3249.46,"text":"還有我猜說那四款是在你們的執法裡有啦"},{"start":3249.46,"end":3251.46,"text":"這是我猜的啦"},{"start":3251.46,"end":3253.46,"text":"是不是真的是如此應該是嘛"},{"start":3254.71,"end":3256.71,"text":"好國防會"},{"start":3256.71,"end":3258.71,"text":"這邊跟國委員"},{"start":3258.71,"end":3260.71,"text":"報告那個行政院專案"},{"start":3260.71,"end":3262.71,"text":"核准的投資機制啊"},{"start":3262.71,"end":3264.71,"text":"是為了因應重大經濟情勢"},{"start":3264.71,"end":3266.71,"text":"變化跟國家產業"},{"start":3266.71,"end":3268.71,"text":"政策需要"},{"start":3268.71,"end":3270.71,"text":"某個程度來講需要保留適度的"},{"start":3270.71,"end":3272.71,"text":"一些決策彈性"},{"start":3272.71,"end":3274.71,"text":"另外就是說行政院專案核准"},{"start":3274.71,"end":3276.71,"text":"的案件均需要提案"},{"start":3276.71,"end":3278.71,"text":"主管機關進行專業評估"},{"start":3278.71,"end":3280.71,"text":"後再經行政院審"},{"start":3280.71,"end":3282.71,"text":"和程序後核定"},{"start":3282.71,"end":3284.71,"text":"某個程度來講也"},{"start":3284.71,"end":3286.71,"text":"已經有一定的一個審查"},{"start":3286.71,"end":3288.71,"text":"的密度那歷年來的"},{"start":3288.71,"end":3290.71,"text":"投資譬如說像半導體"},{"start":3290.71,"end":3292.71,"text":"的產業如台積電世界"},{"start":3292.71,"end":3294.71,"text":"先進金融產業"},{"start":3294.71,"end":3296.71,"text":"譬如兆豐金張銀"},{"start":3296.71,"end":3298.71,"text":"那以及有關國家"},{"start":3298.71,"end":3300.71,"text":"運輸的中華航空"},{"start":3300.71,"end":3302.71,"text":"等這個都是"},{"start":3302.71,"end":3304.71,"text":"國家重點的產業"},{"start":3304.71,"end":3306.71,"text":"發展的一些重點"},{"start":3306.71,"end":3308.71,"text":"產業那或者是重要"},{"start":3308.71,"end":3310.71,"text":"的公共利益密切相關"},{"start":3310.71,"end":3312.71,"text":"那假如"},{"start":3312.71,"end":3314.71,"text":"一律適用一般審議"},{"start":3314.71,"end":3316.71,"text":"程序可能影響"},{"start":3316.71,"end":3318.71,"text":"政府及時因應情勢及"},{"start":3318.71,"end":3320.71,"text":"靈活推動產業"},{"start":3320.71,"end":3322.71,"text":"政策的能力那如"},{"start":3322.71,"end":3324.71,"text":"委員堅持修法那希望"},{"start":3324.71,"end":3326.71,"text":"能夠保留行政專"},{"start":3326.71,"end":3328.71,"text":"行政院專案機制"},{"start":3328.71,"end":3330.71,"text":"透過強化事前評估"},{"start":3330.71,"end":3332.71,"text":"程序兼顧政策"},{"start":3332.71,"end":3334.71,"text":"執行效能與投資決策"},{"start":3334.71,"end":3336.71,"text":"的嚴謹性那朝加強"},{"start":3336.71,"end":3338.71,"text":"審核流程及審查"},{"start":3338.71,"end":3340.71,"text":"審查密度的方向修法"},{"start":3340.71,"end":3342.71,"text":"建議文字如復"},{"start":3343.44,"end":3345.44,"text":"那我問一下"},{"start":3345.44,"end":3347.44,"text":"那原來那個宏偉委員講"},{"start":3347.44,"end":3349.44,"text":"那個版本的第一款第二款"},{"start":3349.44,"end":3351.44,"text":"那四階段那四款"},{"start":3351.44,"end":3353.44,"text":"你們執法本來就會跑嗎"},{"start":3353.44,"end":3355.44,"text":"對在那個在最後一半法"},{"start":3355.44,"end":3357.44,"text":"就會做了那我是"},{"start":3357.44,"end":3359.44,"text":"我是這樣想啦因為執法"},{"start":3359.44,"end":3361.44,"text":"有定了那我們現在的"},{"start":3361.44,"end":3363.44,"text":"母法上把它重複規定這個"},{"start":3363.44,"end":3365.44,"text":"有沒有一個立法上的精簡的一個做法"},{"start":3365.44,"end":3367.44,"text":"第二個我覺得差別在哪裡"},{"start":3367.44,"end":3369.44,"text":"差別在說發生第二項"},{"start":3369.44,"end":3371.44,"text":"我是說新建會的國發會"},{"start":3371.44,"end":3373.44,"text":"發生那種狀況的時候"},{"start":3373.44,"end":3375.44,"text":"如果為了時效性"},{"start":3375.44,"end":3377.44,"text":"還要再把原來那四個動作"},{"start":3377.44,"end":3379.44,"text":"再跑一次的確我聽起來"},{"start":3379.44,"end":3381.44,"text":"目前國發會"},{"start":3381.44,"end":3383.44,"text":"寫的第二項"},{"start":3383.74,"end":3385.74,"text":"它就有一個空間"},{"start":3385.74,"end":3387.74,"text":"這個空間看你從哪個角度想"},{"start":3387.74,"end":3389.74,"text":"現在以現在好了啦"},{"start":3389.74,"end":3391.74,"text":"最近大家剛我們會議前在提到嘛"},{"start":3391.74,"end":3393.74,"text":"最近股市的表現受到美國"},{"start":3393.74,"end":3395.74,"text":"其中選舉的影響"},{"start":3395.74,"end":3397.74,"text":"那現在的四大基金可能要進場互盤"},{"start":3397.74,"end":3399.74,"text":"那當然國發基金跟四大基金不同"},{"start":3399.74,"end":3401.74,"text":"但是未來如果發生了產業"},{"start":3401.74,"end":3403.74,"text":"有急需的時候那麼"},{"start":3403.74,"end":3405.74,"text":"如果按照第三十條之三"},{"start":3405.74,"end":3407.74,"text":"如果是一"},{"start":3407.38,"end":3409.38,"text":"民眾黨團 紅委員的意見"},{"start":3409.38,"end":3411.38,"text":"在做第二項的"},{"start":3411.38,"end":3413.38,"text":"處理的時候還把前面的"},{"start":3413.38,"end":3415.38,"text":"第一到四項再跑一次"},{"start":3416.09,"end":3418.09,"text":"再跑一次才能進入到第二項"},{"start":3418.09,"end":3420.09,"text":"來進行核准喔"},{"start":3420.09,"end":3422.09,"text":"那如果按照目前國發會"},{"start":3422.09,"end":3424.09,"text":"給的意見是第二項的話就很清楚"},{"start":3424.09,"end":3426.09,"text":"他說並與並赴評估報告"},{"start":3426.09,"end":3428.09,"text":"他在專案核准時"},{"start":3428.09,"end":3430.09,"text":"遇到這種重大的時候"},{"start":3430.09,"end":3432.09,"text":"專案核准的時候他就要把那時候"},{"start":3432.09,"end":3434.09,"text":"跑過這四項"},{"start":3433.67,"end":3435.67,"text":"四個動作的評估報告附上來"},{"start":3435.67,"end":3437.67,"text":"那準或不準"},{"start":3438.06,"end":3440.06,"text":"到底原因是什麼"},{"start":3440.06,"end":3442.06,"text":"這四個動作都已經表明了"},{"start":3442.06,"end":3444.06,"text":"還有需要再回去從頭再跑四次"},{"start":3444.06,"end":3446.06,"text":"跑那個四個動作嗎"},{"start":3446.06,"end":3448.06,"text":"時效的問題"},{"start":3448.06,"end":3450.06,"text":"我也請紅委員跟政委員思考"},{"start":3450.06,"end":3452.06,"text":"就是說因為"},{"start":3452.06,"end":3454.06,"text":"這個差別為什麼當時會把它定下來"},{"start":3454.06,"end":3456.06,"text":"也跟各位說明一下"},{"start":3456.06,"end":3458.06,"text":"就是我們一般民間公司去國發會"},{"start":3458.06,"end":3460.06,"text":"做這些的投資申請"},{"start":3460.06,"end":3462.06,"text":"就會走這四個"},{"start":3462.06,"end":3464.06,"text":"但現行的行政院"},{"start":3464.06,"end":3466.06,"text":"專案核准的像經濟部核准交通部"},{"start":3466.06,"end":3468.06,"text":"核准衛福部的"},{"start":3468.06,"end":3470.06,"text":"他沒有走前面這四個"},{"start":3470.01,"end":3472.01,"text":"他完全沒有走"},{"start":3472.77,"end":3474.77,"text":"他完全沒有走這四項"},{"start":3475.1,"end":3477.1,"text":"所以我是說是不是"},{"start":3477.36,"end":3479.36,"text":"可以讓他們去走這四項"},{"start":3479.36,"end":3481.36,"text":"就這樣子而已"},{"start":3481.36,"end":3483.36,"text":"我想我們知道"},{"start":3483.36,"end":3485.36,"text":"委員的這個美意"},{"start":3485.36,"end":3487.36,"text":"希望在這個審查的部分"},{"start":3487.36,"end":3489.36,"text":"更加完整的把這些東西"},{"start":3489.36,"end":3491.36,"text":"都弄過來"},{"start":3491.36,"end":3493.36,"text":"現在但是這樣"},{"start":3493.36,"end":3495.36,"text":"如果假設我們現在以這樣子"},{"start":3495.36,"end":3497.36,"text":"行政院專案核准"},{"start":3497.36,"end":3499.36,"text":"目前是沒有走三階段"},{"start":3499.36,"end":3501.36,"text":"核准就是準了"},{"start":3501.36,"end":3503.36,"text":"如果走三階段的話"},{"start":3503.36,"end":3505.36,"text":"走四階我知道"},{"start":3505.36,"end":3507.36,"text":"就是這樣子的話會變成"},{"start":3509.95,"end":3511.95,"text":"未來等於是不會有行政院專案核准"},{"start":3511.95,"end":3513.95,"text":"因為本來他就去走那個"},{"start":3513.95,"end":3515.95,"text":"就是"},{"start":3515.95,"end":3517.95,"text":"就是會"},{"start":3517.95,"end":3519.95,"text":"他直接送件到國發基金來"},{"start":3519.95,"end":3521.95,"text":"就會走那個四階段了"},{"start":3521.95,"end":3523.95,"text":"對 但是如果行政院"},{"start":3523.95,"end":3525.95,"text":"他送過來對不對"},{"start":3525.95,"end":3527.95,"text":"可是就是有問題的"},{"start":3527.95,"end":3529.95,"text":"因為像之前來講的話"},{"start":3530.89,"end":3532.89,"text":"那所以是民進黨的主張"},{"start":3532.89,"end":3534.89,"text":"我覺得這個主張是很好的"},{"start":3536.1,"end":3538.1,"text":"因為他是認為就是說"},{"start":3538.1,"end":3540.1,"text":"那時候潘鵬安當立委的時候"},{"start":3540.1,"end":3542.1,"text":"他就說即使是行政院"},{"start":3542.1,"end":3544.1,"text":"核准完了之後"},{"start":3544.1,"end":3546.1,"text":"也是要經過審查"},{"start":3546.1,"end":3548.1,"text":"對 所以現在這個"},{"start":3548.1,"end":3550.1,"text":"就是在我們的休止"},{"start":3550.1,"end":3552.1,"text":"可是你現在沒有審查的程序"},{"start":3552.1,"end":3554.1,"text":"你沒有實質審查"},{"start":3554.1,"end":3556.1,"text":"你只是提交評估報告然後就"},{"start":3556.1,"end":3558.1,"text":"就備查就這樣子而已"},{"start":3558.1,"end":3560.1,"text":"你沒有經過一個實質審查的程序"},{"start":3560.1,"end":3562.1,"text":"現在那個"},{"start":3562.1,"end":3564.1,"text":"評估報告這裡寫說"},{"start":3564.1,"end":3566.1,"text":"要附這個評估報告"},{"start":3566.1,"end":3568.1,"text":"其實就像我們在投評會有沒有"},{"start":3568.1,"end":3570.1,"text":"那個委員我想過去有"},{"start":3570.1,"end":3572.1,"text":"參加過我們國發基金的審查"},{"start":3572.1,"end":3574.1,"text":"那一個部分他會有一個"},{"start":3574.1,"end":3576.1,"text":"那個是最重要的就是那個評估報告"},{"start":3576.1,"end":3578.1,"text":"因為評估報告會做滴滴"},{"start":3578.1,"end":3580.1,"text":"禁止調查財務法務會計"},{"start":3580.1,"end":3582.1,"text":"技術商業模式"},{"start":3582.1,"end":3584.1,"text":"這一些都在這個評估報告裡面"},{"start":3584.1,"end":3586.1,"text":"那等於是"},{"start":3586.1,"end":3588.1,"text":"那這個"},{"start":3588.1,"end":3590.1,"text":"中央目的事業主管機關"},{"start":3590.1,"end":3592.1,"text":"在報行政院的時候"},{"start":3592.1,"end":3594.1,"text":"把這一個評估報告"},{"start":3594.1,"end":3596.1,"text":"包括這些滴滴的東西"},{"start":3596.1,"end":3598.1,"text":"禁止調查的東西都送過來"},{"start":3598.1,"end":3600.1,"text":"行政院在中央目的核准的時候"},{"start":3600.1,"end":3602.1,"text":"他其實就會彙各個部會"},{"start":3602.1,"end":3604.1,"text":"就他的財務技術法務"},{"start":3604.1,"end":3606.1,"text":"商務等等的"},{"start":3606.1,"end":3608.1,"text":"那這樣的部分其實就是在"},{"start":3608.1,"end":3610.1,"text":"處理那一個部分"},{"start":3610.1,"end":3612.1,"text":"又講究到時效性"},{"start":3612.1,"end":3614.1,"text":"因為你走三階那個"},{"start":3614.1,"end":3616.1,"text":"國發基金的這個四階段的流程"},{"start":3616.1,"end":3618.1,"text":"整個下來大概"},{"start":3618.22,"end":3620.22,"text":"可能最快最快到三十幾個月"},{"start":3620.22,"end":3622.22,"text":"還是說你各部會向行政院"},{"start":3622.22,"end":3624.22,"text":"提這樣子的專案投資的時候"},{"start":3624.22,"end":3626.22,"text":"就要這個"},{"start":3626.22,"end":3628.22,"text":"不是"},{"start":3628.22,"end":3630.22,"text":"就要經過你們國發會的"},{"start":3630.22,"end":3632.22,"text":"這四階段的評估才能送到"},{"start":3632.48,"end":3634.48,"text":"送到這個去"},{"start":3638.76,"end":3640.76,"text":"而且我看過各部會的評估報告"},{"start":3640.76,"end":3642.76,"text":"因為我以前也看過交通部的"},{"start":3642.76,"end":3644.76,"text":"看過經濟部的"},{"start":3644.76,"end":3646.76,"text":"也看過以前國科會的"},{"start":3647.7,"end":3649.7,"text":"告"},{"start":3648.65,"end":3650.65,"text":"跟我在國發會"},{"start":3650.65,"end":3652.65,"text":"我們在審一般民間公司的強度"},{"start":3653.93,"end":3655.93,"text":"差很多"},{"start":3655.93,"end":3657.93,"text":"我覺得國發會是真的比較嚴謹"},{"start":3657.93,"end":3659.93,"text":"所以我才會堅持是說"},{"start":3659.93,"end":3661.93,"text":"應該要把我們行之永年"},{"start":3661.93,"end":3663.93,"text":"對民間公司那麼嚴謹"},{"start":3663.93,"end":3665.93,"text":"行政院各個部會提到行政院去的"},{"start":3665.93,"end":3667.93,"text":"那麼草率"},{"start":3668.39,"end":3670.39,"text":"我是站在這個立場"},{"start":3672.83,"end":3674.83,"text":"我現在在看民眾黨的提案"},{"start":3677.99,"end":3679.99,"text":"你這邊寫四階段"},{"start":3679.99,"end":3681.99,"text":"第一到第四"},{"start":3681.99,"end":3683.99,"text":"一共是四款"},{"start":3683.99,"end":3685.99,"text":"但是事實上"},{"start":3685.99,"end":3687.99,"text":"前面第二款至第四款"},{"start":3687.99,"end":3689.99,"text":"第二款到第四款就是三階段"},{"start":3690.11,"end":3692.11,"text":"所以這裡面"},{"start":3692.11,"end":3694.11,"text":"洪委員所要求的經行政院專案核准的"},{"start":3694.11,"end":3696.11,"text":"他要跑什麼 跑第二到第四階"},{"start":3696.11,"end":3698.11,"text":"所以是三階段"},{"start":3698.11,"end":3700.11,"text":"正常的 在他們的執法裡面"},{"start":3700.11,"end":3702.11,"text":"是從第一階 第二階 第三階 第四階"},{"start":3702.11,"end":3704.11,"text":"執法都有規範"},{"start":3704.11,"end":3706.11,"text":"但是如果是專案核定的"},{"start":3706.11,"end":3708.11,"text":"就沒有第一階了"},{"start":3708.11,"end":3710.11,"text":"專案核定的就是從第二階開始跑"},{"start":3710.11,"end":3712.11,"text":"那我們看看"},{"start":3712.11,"end":3714.11,"text":"第二三四"},{"start":3714.11,"end":3716.11,"text":"這三階段的時候"},{"start":3716.11,"end":3718.11,"text":"在第三階的部分"},{"start":3718.11,"end":3720.11,"text":"第四階的部分"},{"start":3720.11,"end":3722.11,"text":"六個月內要申請"},{"start":3722.11,"end":3724.11,"text":"撥付投資款"},{"start":3724.11,"end":3726.11,"text":"所以我是說 執法它的一個格式"},{"start":3726.11,"end":3728.11,"text":"它是循"},{"start":3727.69,"end":3729.69,"text":"一般性的"},{"start":3729.46,"end":3731.46,"text":"從第一階開始進來"},{"start":3731.46,"end":3733.46,"text":"你第二階 第三階 第四階多少時間"},{"start":3733.46,"end":3735.46,"text":"那既然是專案核定的"},{"start":3735.46,"end":3737.46,"text":"它必然有它的 剛剛主委說"},{"start":3737.46,"end":3739.46,"text":"報告的因應"},{"start":3739.05,"end":3741.05,"text":"情勢 它必須要專案核定的"},{"start":3741.05,"end":3743.05,"text":"結果如果按照你們的"},{"start":3743.05,"end":3745.05,"text":"條文設計 它要再重新"},{"start":3745.05,"end":3747.05,"text":"去跑那二階 三階 四階"},{"start":3747.05,"end":3749.05,"text":"又有兩個 又有半年"},{"start":3749.05,"end":3751.05,"text":"這個實際上會不會延誤"},{"start":3751.05,"end":3753.05,"text":"但是它目前的折衷方式是在第二項"},{"start":3753.05,"end":3755.05,"text":"它明定說"},{"start":3755.05,"end":3757.05,"text":"核准時 應並附評估報告"},{"start":3757.05,"end":3759.05,"text":"那就是剛時"},{"start":3759.05,"end":3761.05,"text":"滴滴 剛講過都滴滴過了"},{"start":3761.05,"end":3763.05,"text":"不會也講了"},{"start":3763.05,"end":3765.05,"text":"核准後於管理會報告"},{"start":3765.05,"end":3767.05,"text":"等於是怎麼樣 要向董事會"},{"start":3767.05,"end":3769.05,"text":"要事後"},{"start":3769.05,"end":3771.05,"text":"追認知"},{"start":3771.05,"end":3773.05,"text":"因為我們的公司在處理董事會追認"},{"start":3773.05,"end":3775.05,"text":"因為重大情況的時候可能就是趕快處理了"},{"start":3775.05,"end":3777.05,"text":"回來要回到董事會追認"},{"start":3777.05,"end":3779.05,"text":"那如果董事會有意見"},{"start":3779.05,"end":3781.05,"text":"那這個可能事情就大條了"},{"start":3781.05,"end":3783.05,"text":"就像陳如剛剛後援所說的"},{"start":3783.05,"end":3785.05,"text":"所以我是在講兩個不能的意見"},{"start":3785.05,"end":3787.05,"text":"第一 這所謂的"},{"start":3787.05,"end":3789.05,"text":"四款 從第一階到第四階"},{"start":3789.05,"end":3791.05,"text":"這在執法都有明定"},{"start":3791.05,"end":3793.05,"text":"要不要放在魔法裡面 這第一個"},{"start":3793.05,"end":3795.05,"text":"第二個 縱使要放這四款"},{"start":3795.05,"end":3797.05,"text":"要放這四款"},{"start":3797.05,"end":3799.05,"text":"是不是"},{"start":3798.55,"end":3800.55,"text":"後續的第三項"},{"start":3800.55,"end":3802.55,"text":"第二項"},{"start":3802.55,"end":3804.55,"text":"是不是用"},{"start":3803.44,"end":3805.44,"text":"國發會的意見"},{"start":3805.03,"end":3809.03,"text":"把它放在用一個特殊的渠道去處理"},{"start":3809.31,"end":3811.31,"text":"那至於說"},{"start":3811.07,"end":3813.07,"text":"你後面的最後一項"},{"start":3813.07,"end":3815.07,"text":"國家發展基金會辦理現有投資"},{"start":3815.07,"end":3817.07,"text":"那個要不要放進去 我現在在討論"},{"start":3817.07,"end":3819.07,"text":"所以我就三個意見"},{"start":3819.07,"end":3821.07,"text":"第一 本來四個階段"},{"start":3821.07,"end":3823.07,"text":"執法就有定"},{"start":3823.07,"end":3825.07,"text":"魔法要不要放進去 這第一個 這可以討論"},{"start":3825.07,"end":3827.07,"text":"第二個 專案"},{"start":3827.07,"end":3829.07,"text":"核定的 還要不要把二階到"},{"start":3829.07,"end":3831.07,"text":"四階再跑一次 還是用國發會的"},{"start":3831.07,"end":3833.07,"text":"第二項 就直接在"},{"start":3833.07,"end":3835.07,"text":"核准時要聘服評估報告"},{"start":3835.07,"end":3837.07,"text":"然後要在委員會追認知"},{"start":3837.07,"end":3839.07,"text":"核准後與委員會"},{"start":3839.07,"end":3841.07,"text":"委員會報告等於是追認的看法"},{"start":3841.07,"end":3843.07,"text":"第三個 就是最後"},{"start":3843.07,"end":3845.07,"text":"因為民主黨提案還有一個最後一項"},{"start":3845.07,"end":3847.07,"text":"就是說 這個我就不太清楚了"},{"start":3847.07,"end":3849.07,"text":"辦理現金增資 那是細則"},{"start":3849.07,"end":3851.07,"text":"辦法裡面有的 要不要再拉到魔法來"},{"start":3851.07,"end":3853.07,"text":"所以我看起來"},{"start":3853.07,"end":3855.07,"text":"國發會的意見"},{"start":3855.07,"end":3857.07,"text":"它就是第一項很清楚"},{"start":3857.07,"end":3859.07,"text":"把原來執法裡面的"},{"start":3859.07,"end":3861.07,"text":"都用第一項"},{"start":3861.07,"end":3863.07,"text":"它又沒有再拉上來 它就是用第一項來說明"},{"start":3863.07,"end":3865.07,"text":"一個原則"},{"start":3865.07,"end":3867.07,"text":"第二項 就在處理專案核定的"},{"start":3867.07,"end":3869.07,"text":"專案核定它把它加強 強化"},{"start":3869.07,"end":3871.07,"text":"要付什麼 要付評估報告"},{"start":3871.07,"end":3873.07,"text":"而且呢 還要"},{"start":3873.07,"end":3875.07,"text":"核准後還要來管理會報告"},{"start":3875.07,"end":3877.07,"text":"有點像追認的意思"},{"start":3877.07,"end":3879.07,"text":"是不是專案的要保它的彈性"},{"start":3879.07,"end":3881.07,"text":"跟時效性 用第二項的"},{"start":3881.07,"end":3883.07,"text":"這樣的寫法來規範"},{"start":3883.07,"end":3885.07,"text":"是否比較能夠"},{"start":3884.73,"end":3886.73,"text":"因應當前的局勢"},{"start":3886.73,"end":3888.73,"text":"我現在講 當前是大家心裡在七上八下的"},{"start":3888.73,"end":3890.73,"text":"有人有買 有人還沒買 像我就是"},{"start":3890.73,"end":3892.73,"text":"想著看什麼時候可以進場"},{"start":3895.8,"end":3897.8,"text":"因為現在"},{"start":3897.8,"end":3899.8,"text":"這樣子"},{"start":3900.14,"end":3902.14,"text":"委員在擔心的就是說"},{"start":3902.14,"end":3904.14,"text":"把關的那個機制跟細緻度"},{"start":3904.14,"end":3906.14,"text":"那現在因為在結合剛剛"},{"start":3906.14,"end":3908.14,"text":"討論過的 管理會的"},{"start":3908.14,"end":3910.14,"text":"這個專家學者委員有各政黨"},{"start":3910.14,"end":3912.14,"text":"推派的代表在裡面"},{"start":3912.14,"end":3914.14,"text":"所以這個評估報告如果"},{"start":3914.14,"end":3916.14,"text":"他剛剛沒有辦法符合"},{"start":3916.14,"end":3918.14,"text":"這個委員剛剛提到的嚴謹度的話"},{"start":3918.14,"end":3920.14,"text":"那委員在"},{"start":3920.14,"end":3922.14,"text":"那個選擇委員政黨推薦的"},{"start":3922.14,"end":3924.14,"text":"在那裡面又一個把關的機制"},{"start":3924.14,"end":3926.14,"text":"所以行政院專案核准"},{"start":3926.14,"end":3928.14,"text":"其實"},{"start":3927.15,"end":3929.15,"text":"第一個就是說過往到現在"},{"start":3929.15,"end":3931.15,"text":"那個案件數本來就很少"},{"start":3931.15,"end":3933.15,"text":"而且投的14個案子"},{"start":3933.15,"end":3935.15,"text":"裡面11個案子到現在"},{"start":3935.15,"end":3937.15,"text":"來看都是"},{"start":3937.15,"end":3939.15,"text":"賺錢的 而且是對這個"},{"start":3939.15,"end":3941.15,"text":"產業升級很有幫助的"},{"start":3941.15,"end":3943.15,"text":"所以案子一方面很少"},{"start":3943.15,"end":3945.15,"text":"二方面就是說強調"},{"start":3945.15,"end":3947.15,"text":"時效性的話跟嚴謹度的話"},{"start":3947.15,"end":3949.15,"text":"是不是可以請委員"},{"start":3949.15,"end":3951.15,"text":"來這個考量"},{"start":3950.95,"end":3952.95,"text":"因為國發已經成立"},{"start":3952.95,"end":3954.95,"text":"42年 只有14件"},{"start":3954.95,"end":3956.95,"text":"42年"},{"start":3956.95,"end":3958.95,"text":"只有14件"},{"start":3958.95,"end":3960.95,"text":"所以不是很平均"},{"start":3962.03,"end":3967.03,"text":"可是我們14個案件裡面有11個都賺錢的"},{"start":3968.72,"end":3970.72,"text":"我當然知道就是說"},{"start":3970.72,"end":3972.72,"text":"因為當時我是覺得"},{"start":3974.3,"end":3977.3,"text":"我是蠻欣賞潘孟安那時候提的這樣的做法"},{"start":3978.99,"end":3981.99,"text":"也就是說這個行政院核定的東西應該"},{"start":3983.03,"end":3985.03,"text":"當時我們的主張就是說"},{"start":3985.61,"end":3987.61,"text":"不能民間公司的審的比較嚴格"},{"start":3987.61,"end":3989.61,"text":"然後行政院專案的都不嚴格"},{"start":3989.61,"end":3991.61,"text":"那我自己的經驗也是啦"},{"start":3993.37,"end":3995.37,"text":"因為我擔任過你部會提出來的那些"},{"start":3995.37,"end":3997.37,"text":"像以前經濟部還有交通部的"},{"start":3997.37,"end":4001.37,"text":"所以他那一個專案的投資申請很麻煩"},{"start":4002.72,"end":4004.72,"text":"我覺得麻煩就是說他那時候寫的比較草率"},{"start":4004.72,"end":4006.72,"text":"就有點像寫Proposal這樣子"},{"start":4006.72,"end":4008.72,"text":"然後那個所謂的財務評估報告"},{"start":4008.72,"end":4010.72,"text":"也沒有經過這樣子的一個同意"},{"start":4010.72,"end":4012.72,"text":"所以呢"},{"start":4012.72,"end":4014.72,"text":"我覺得是不是"},{"start":4014.72,"end":4016.72,"text":"還是遵照我的規定"},{"start":4016.72,"end":4018.72,"text":"如果真的我們黨團"},{"start":4018.72,"end":4020.72,"text":"大家都有意見那我們就是保留這一條"},{"start":4020.72,"end":4022.72,"text":"因為只有這一條有比較大的爭議"},{"start":4022.72,"end":4024.72,"text":"其他都沒有爭議"},{"start":4027.53,"end":4029.53,"text":"好 鄭委員要發言"},{"start":4029.53,"end":4031.53,"text":"因為那個過去四十二年"},{"start":4031.53,"end":4033.53,"text":"只有四件行政院專案"},{"start":4033.53,"end":4035.53,"text":"核准的案子"},{"start":4035.53,"end":4037.53,"text":"那我其實比較傾向於"},{"start":4037.53,"end":4039.53,"text":"就是程序"},{"start":4039.53,"end":4041.53,"text":"應該要更完備一點點"},{"start":4041.53,"end":4043.53,"text":"那基本上我尊重"},{"start":4043.53,"end":4045.53,"text":"就是民眾黨"},{"start":4045.53,"end":4047.53,"text":"民眾黨這個的走法"},{"start":4047.53,"end":4049.53,"text":"那因為我在想說"},{"start":4049.53,"end":4051.53,"text":"如果是行政院的專案核准的狀態"},{"start":4051.53,"end":4053.53,"text":"的時候那這程序當中"},{"start":4053.53,"end":4055.53,"text":"因為剛剛不管是從第二第三第四"},{"start":4055.53,"end":4057.53,"text":"這個四個階段當中的時候"},{"start":4057.53,"end":4059.53,"text":"我覺得他時間其實都有可能"},{"start":4059.53,"end":4061.53,"text":"去控制得更嚴謹一點點"},{"start":4061.53,"end":4063.53,"text":"更縮短一點"},{"start":4063.53,"end":4065.53,"text":"所以我覺得時間上可能還好"},{"start":4065.53,"end":4067.53,"text":"那基本上在這個議題上面"},{"start":4067.53,"end":4069.53,"text":"我尊重民眾黨這邊的一個看法"},{"start":4071.01,"end":4073.01,"text":"謝謝 以上"},{"start":4101.01,"end":4103.01,"text":"啊哈"},{"start":4102.52,"end":4104.52,"text":"退回去 因為你現在這個程序也沒有退回"},{"start":4104.52,"end":4106.52,"text":"你知道嗎"},{"start":4106.74,"end":4108.74,"text":"你沒有辦法拒絕"},{"start":4108.74,"end":4110.74,"text":"因為你是行政院的下屬機關"},{"start":4110.74,"end":4112.74,"text":"所以你這個東西就變成是"},{"start":4112.74,"end":4114.74,"text":"被查而已"},{"start":4114.74,"end":4116.74,"text":"所以那時候我們才會有台傳"},{"start":4116.74,"end":4118.74,"text":"那時候我很強烈的印象就是說"},{"start":4118.74,"end":4120.74,"text":"台傳我在經濟部的時候就是不同意"},{"start":4120.74,"end":4122.74,"text":"然後之後送過來"},{"start":4122.74,"end":4124.74,"text":"到了國發會行政院核定之後"},{"start":4124.74,"end":4126.74,"text":"那就是OK OK之後"},{"start":4127.63,"end":4129.63,"text":"然後我以為國安會會擋嘛"},{"start":4129.63,"end":4131.63,"text":"結果沒有嘛結果這樣就變成是一個"},{"start":4131.63,"end":4133.63,"text":"重大損失啊"},{"start":4133.64,"end":4135.64,"text":"這個是我非常強烈的印象"},{"start":4137.52,"end":4139.52,"text":"不過就整個案件來看"},{"start":4139.52,"end":4141.52,"text":"14件有11件"},{"start":4141.52,"end":4143.52,"text":"當然你說3件"},{"start":4143.52,"end":4145.52,"text":"重不重要當然都很重要"},{"start":4145.52,"end":4147.52,"text":"都很重要啊"},{"start":4147.52,"end":4149.52,"text":"只是說實效性的問題"},{"start":4149.52,"end":4151.52,"text":"如果今天說我們控制完這個程序"},{"start":4151.52,"end":4153.52,"text":"還出包"},{"start":4153.52,"end":4155.52,"text":"那我就絕對就認了"},{"start":4155.2,"end":4157.2,"text":"但是你就是說沒有控制這個程序"},{"start":4157.2,"end":4159.2,"text":"你也沒辦法reject這個我就覺得"},{"start":4159.2,"end":4161.2,"text":"不對"},{"start":4161.38,"end":4163.38,"text":"對啊"},{"start":4163.38,"end":4165.38,"text":"出包機很少的時候我就覺得OK啊"},{"start":4165.38,"end":4167.38,"text":"因為"},{"start":4167.38,"end":4169.38,"text":"所有的機制都"},{"start":4169.38,"end":4171.38,"text":"你不能拒絕行政院交辦給你的"},{"start":4171.38,"end":4173.38,"text":"專案投資報告這個是一個很大的"},{"start":4173.38,"end":4175.38,"text":"問題啦"},{"start":4175.93,"end":4177.93,"text":"我現在聽一下第一個"},{"start":4177.93,"end":4179.93,"text":"其實執法歸入母法"},{"start":4179.93,"end":4181.93,"text":"我們太多法案是如此啦"},{"start":4181.93,"end":4183.93,"text":"你這個執法這個也半馬行之多年"},{"start":4185.45,"end":4187.45,"text":"其實執法歸入母法"},{"start":4187.45,"end":4189.45,"text":"我是覺得他們應該是可以同意"},{"start":4189.45,"end":4191.45,"text":"現在就是說行政院的那一個"},{"start":4191.45,"end":4193.45,"text":"他走234款"},{"start":4193.45,"end":4195.45,"text":"234款基本上"},{"start":4195.45,"end":4197.45,"text":"這個行政如果你們覺得急"},{"start":4197.45,"end":4199.45,"text":"如果你們覺得急應該可以很快啊"},{"start":4199.45,"end":4201.45,"text":"然後甚至你告訴經濟部"},{"start":4201.45,"end":4203.45,"text":"告訴交通部說"},{"start":4203.45,"end":4205.45,"text":"你就是要按照我們"},{"start":4205.45,"end":4207.45,"text":"234階段的這些的所有的"},{"start":4207.45,"end":4209.45,"text":"報告走一遍"},{"start":4209.97,"end":4211.97,"text":"對不對"},{"start":4211.97,"end":4213.97,"text":"然後如果格式跟我們在省民間企業的公司是"},{"start":4213.97,"end":4215.97,"text":"一模模一樣樣的時候"},{"start":4215.97,"end":4217.97,"text":"也通過這些不管會計師"},{"start":4217.97,"end":4219.97,"text":"或者是什麼的滴滴"},{"start":4219.97,"end":4221.97,"text":"我就不相信那個東西會出問題"},{"start":4221.97,"end":4223.97,"text":"然後會很慢"},{"start":4224.76,"end":4226.76,"text":"現在就是不是長這個樣子"},{"start":4226.76,"end":4228.76,"text":"我講的是事實啦"},{"start":4228.46,"end":4230.46,"text":"好啦那個還是你先講"},{"start":4230.46,"end":4232.46,"text":"我簡單講一下就是說"},{"start":4232.46,"end":4234.46,"text":"如果說一個國八會這邊講說"},{"start":4234.46,"end":4236.46,"text":"是用時間的長短的部分"},{"start":4236.46,"end":4238.46,"text":"時效性來解釋"},{"start":4238.46,"end":4240.46,"text":"要不要走這234款"},{"start":4240.46,"end":4242.46,"text":"我覺得這個說服力不是很夠啦"},{"start":4242.46,"end":4244.46,"text":"因為42年只有14件"},{"start":4244.46,"end":4246.46,"text":"重大的行政院專案和準案"},{"start":4246.46,"end":4248.46,"text":"那專案和準案如果說"},{"start":4248.46,"end":4250.46,"text":"我們要走各部會的狀況當中的時候"},{"start":4250.46,"end":4252.46,"text":"我覺得這個國八會"},{"start":4252.46,"end":4254.46,"text":"在做這幾個程序當中"},{"start":4254.46,"end":4256.46,"text":"其實是可以去壓縮他的"},{"start":4256.46,"end":4258.46,"text":"長短的時間的節奏"},{"start":4258.46,"end":4260.46,"text":"所以如果說用時間的部分"},{"start":4260.46,"end":4262.46,"text":"來當作一個"},{"start":4262.46,"end":4264.46,"text":"理由的時候我覺得可能沒有那麼充分"},{"start":4264.46,"end":4266.46,"text":"所以我會支持"},{"start":4266.46,"end":4268.46,"text":"就是民眾黨團目前這邊的"},{"start":4268.46,"end":4270.46,"text":"一些意見跟看法"},{"start":4270.99,"end":4272.99,"text":"我覺得今天的發言就是大家各黨團要負責啦"},{"start":4274.39,"end":4276.39,"text":"陳如剛剛洪委員不斷的提到"},{"start":4276.39,"end":4278.39,"text":"以前的"},{"start":4278.39,"end":4280.39,"text":"前任委員"},{"start":4280.39,"end":4282.39,"text":"他人都不在立法院了"},{"start":4282.39,"end":4284.39,"text":"那你一直以他當年的質詢的發言"},{"start":4284.39,"end":4286.39,"text":"來看待說好像彷彿今天"},{"start":4286.39,"end":4288.39,"text":"這十四件當中有三件不賺錢"},{"start":4288.39,"end":4290.39,"text":"都是他當時質疑的"},{"start":4290.39,"end":4292.39,"text":"那個邏輯你要把它放在這裡"},{"start":4292.39,"end":4294.39,"text":"那今天我認為"},{"start":4294.39,"end":4296.39,"text":"行政院我們國八會的說法也有道理"},{"start":4296.39,"end":4298.39,"text":"現在的經濟情勢的變"},{"start":4298.39,"end":4300.39,"text":"跟訊息萬變"},{"start":4300.39,"end":4302.39,"text":"那是不是隔了幾屆之後"},{"start":4302.39,"end":4304.39,"text":"這個條文要修的時候"},{"start":4304.39,"end":4306.39,"text":"又有人主張說有洪委員的當時"},{"start":4306.39,"end":4308.39,"text":"就是主張這樣子就不會出問題"},{"start":4308.39,"end":4310.39,"text":"結果還是因為這樣的規定告示不能因應"},{"start":4310.39,"end":4312.39,"text":"那這個責任要怪誰"},{"start":4312.19,"end":4314.19,"text":"所以我是覺得今天喔"},{"start":4314.19,"end":4316.19,"text":"很清楚了啦"},{"start":4316.19,"end":4318.19,"text":"那麼鎮委員洪委員各自代表黨團"},{"start":4318.19,"end":4320.19,"text":"就是有這樣的堅持"},{"start":4320.31,"end":4322.31,"text":"那這樣就要對負責啦"},{"start":4322.31,"end":4324.31,"text":"未來這個條文這樣定下去之後"},{"start":4324.31,"end":4326.31,"text":"那今天的發言大家各自負責"},{"start":4326.31,"end":4328.31,"text":"我認為國八會他們說"},{"start":4328.31,"end":4330.31,"text":"四十二年來只有十四件"},{"start":4330.31,"end":4332.31,"text":"十四件當中十一件是賺錢的"},{"start":4332.31,"end":4334.31,"text":"那十四件當中都重大"},{"start":4334.31,"end":4336.31,"text":"那但是這個重大能夠走"},{"start":4336.31,"end":4338.31,"text":"專案核准的程序"},{"start":4338.31,"end":4340.31,"text":"沒有這些程序上的拖延延至"},{"start":4340.31,"end":4342.31,"text":"所以這十四件"},{"start":4342.31,"end":4344.31,"text":"才能夠讓其中的十一件"},{"start":4344.31,"end":4346.31,"text":"能夠獲得那樣的政策效果"},{"start":4346.31,"end":4348.31,"text":"我也可以這樣講啊"},{"start":4348.31,"end":4350.31,"text":"那現在是因為這個專案核准發揮的效果"},{"start":4350.31,"end":4352.31,"text":"所以十四件當中的十一件"},{"start":4352.31,"end":4354.31,"text":"它能夠達到當時的"},{"start":4354.31,"end":4356.31,"text":"要求的效果"},{"start":4356.31,"end":4358.31,"text":"那現在為了那三件"},{"start":4358.31,"end":4360.31,"text":"你反過來要加上給"},{"start":4360.31,"end":4362.31,"text":"行政院專案核准的"},{"start":4362.31,"end":4364.31,"text":"跑這二三四款的程序"},{"start":4364.31,"end":4366.31,"text":"那或許"},{"start":4365.3,"end":4367.3,"text":"到那時候執行的結果"},{"start":4367.3,"end":4369.3,"text":"就是完全失去了專案核准的效果"},{"start":4369.3,"end":4371.3,"text":"那這個時候呢"},{"start":4371.3,"end":4373.3,"text":"因為這個沒有說誰一定對一定錯"},{"start":4373.3,"end":4375.3,"text":"事後再來驗證"},{"start":4375.3,"end":4377.3,"text":"我想今天如果有黨團堅持"},{"start":4377.3,"end":4379.3,"text":"因為今天協商嘛"},{"start":4379.3,"end":4381.3,"text":"如果有人堅持 那就堅持的人"},{"start":4381.3,"end":4383.3,"text":"要對未來的歷史負責"},{"start":4381.77,"end":4383.77,"text":"那我個人是覺得說"},{"start":4383.77,"end":4385.77,"text":"從黨團的立場來講"},{"start":4385.77,"end":4387.77,"text":"我們只有對那個"},{"start":4386.78,"end":4388.78,"text":"立法院黨團推薦的部分"},{"start":4389.43,"end":4391.43,"text":"立法院黨剛講到30條之一"},{"start":4391.43,"end":4393.43,"text":"因為我剛剛說在想一下"},{"start":4393.43,"end":4395.43,"text":"我們還是認為啊 以這樣的立法力"},{"start":4395.43,"end":4397.43,"text":"會造成以後"},{"start":4397.43,"end":4399.43,"text":"其他法的困擾 為什麼"},{"start":4399.43,"end":4401.43,"text":"因為無人機專案就是這樣子"},{"start":4401.56,"end":4403.56,"text":"對不對 也是用各黨團推薦"},{"start":4403.56,"end":4405.56,"text":"然後每個黨團至少要有一人嘛"},{"start":4405.56,"end":4407.56,"text":"那這樣的立法力一開"},{"start":4407.56,"end":4409.56,"text":"後續的其他法律跟進"},{"start":4410.29,"end":4412.29,"text":"都是對於現在"},{"start":4412.84,"end":4416.84,"text":"行政立法奮進的一個干擾跟破壞"},{"start":4417.6,"end":4419.6,"text":"不過我還是說啦 今天我們對於這個條例呢"},{"start":4419.6,"end":4421.6,"text":"我們覺得它的迫切性很高"},{"start":4421.6,"end":4423.6,"text":"因為接下來我們要因應的"},{"start":4423.6,"end":4425.6,"text":"政治經濟變局"},{"start":4425.6,"end":4427.6,"text":"所以呢 我表達"},{"start":4427.6,"end":4429.6,"text":"我們希望國法會衡量"},{"start":4429.6,"end":4431.6,"text":"如果你們可以"},{"start":4431.6,"end":4433.6,"text":"勉為其難"},{"start":4433.6,"end":4435.6,"text":"還是你們覺得要怎麼"},{"start":4435.6,"end":4437.6,"text":"趕快把這個條例能夠通過"},{"start":4437.6,"end":4439.6,"text":"那我們也支持說"},{"start":4439.6,"end":4441.6,"text":"我們以最快方式來通過"},{"start":4442.28,"end":4444.28,"text":"不要在這裡浪費大家的時間"},{"start":4444.28,"end":4446.28,"text":"因為很清楚立場都表達了"},{"start":4446.28,"end":4448.28,"text":"責任也要各自扛了"},{"start":4448.28,"end":4450.28,"text":"那就看國法會啦"},{"start":4453.13,"end":4455.13,"text":"我們那30條是"},{"start":4455.13,"end":4457.13,"text":"大致上我們的意見已經表達"},{"start":4457.13,"end":4459.13,"text":"那我們就尊重國會委員"},{"start":4459.13,"end":4461.13,"text":"那就尊重我們的"},{"start":4463.23,"end":4465.23,"text":"好了 請"},{"start":4464.64,"end":4466.64,"text":"那30之1咧"},{"start":4468.64,"end":4470.64,"text":"30之1"},{"start":4472.46,"end":4474.46,"text":"就是我們的嘛"},{"start":4475.34,"end":4477.34,"text":"那這就是他們的嘛"},{"start":4477.43,"end":4481.43,"text":"30條之1的話就按照國法會的"},{"start":4481.43,"end":4483.43,"text":"30條之1"},{"start":4483.43,"end":4485.43,"text":"我再說明一下 30條之1"},{"start":4485.43,"end":4487.43,"text":"就照國法會的版本 同意"},{"start":4487.43,"end":4489.43,"text":"30條之1照國法會的版本"},{"start":4489.43,"end":4493.43,"text":"那30條之3就照民眾黨團的修正的動議的版本"},{"start":4493.43,"end":4495.43,"text":"30條之3"},{"start":4495.43,"end":4497.43,"text":"30條之2沒考慮過"},{"start":4497.89,"end":4499.89,"text":"30條 有嗎"},{"start":4499.89,"end":4501.89,"text":"30條之2"},{"start":4501.89,"end":4503.89,"text":"是我們是真定的"},{"start":4504.3,"end":4506.3,"text":"就這樣嘛"},{"start":4507.27,"end":4509.27,"text":"沒有那個沒意見啦 那個同意"},{"start":4510.02,"end":4512.02,"text":"照我們的版本"},{"start":4519.06,"end":4521.06,"text":"30條之2"},{"start":4523.57,"end":4525.57,"text":"30條之1"},{"start":4525.98,"end":4527.98,"text":"你講的是哪一個"},{"start":4527.98,"end":4529.98,"text":"管理會任務嘛"},{"start":4529.98,"end":4531.98,"text":"30條之2"},{"start":4531.52,"end":4537.52,"text":"對 國法會版本沒有這條內容"},{"start":4537.52,"end":4539.52,"text":"我們有啊"},{"start":4539.52,"end":4541.52,"text":"所以你說這30條之2是照我們的"},{"start":4541.52,"end":4543.52,"text":"修正動議是有"},{"start":4544.04,"end":4546.04,"text":"對啊 照我們的啦"},{"start":4547.57,"end":4549.57,"text":"照我們的這個版本"},{"start":4549.57,"end":4551.57,"text":"這個沒有問題啊"},{"start":4551.67,"end":4553.67,"text":"那個主委跟庭安沒有問題的啦"},{"start":4553.67,"end":4555.67,"text":"30條之2沒有問題"},{"start":4555.67,"end":4557.67,"text":"照我們的"},{"start":4557.67,"end":4559.67,"text":"不予真定嘛"},{"start":4559.67,"end":4561.67,"text":"照我們的啦"},{"start":4561.84,"end":4563.84,"text":"不予真定"},{"start":4563.84,"end":4565.84,"text":"你還有第六 其他有關事項"},{"start":4565.88,"end":4567.88,"text":"這個"},{"start":4571.14,"end":4573.14,"text":"30條之2"},{"start":4573.14,"end":4575.14,"text":"30條之2"},{"start":4575.14,"end":4577.14,"text":"30條之2"},{"start":4577.5,"end":4579.5,"text":"2是照我們的"},{"start":4579.5,"end":4581.5,"text":"30條之3是不正定"},{"start":4581.67,"end":4583.67,"text":"30條之4不予真定"},{"start":4584.67,"end":4586.67,"text":"這樣沒問題啊"},{"start":4588.1,"end":4590.1,"text":"對啊"},{"start":4591.63,"end":4593.63,"text":"好 對啦 主席說一下就可以了"},{"start":4595.1,"end":4597.1,"text":"好"},{"start":4596.54,"end":4598.54,"text":"等一下我們做決議的時候"},{"start":4599.49,"end":4601.49,"text":"會做一個確認"},{"start":4602.26,"end":4606.26,"text":"主席講一下學商結論就可以了"},{"start":4606.26,"end":4608.26,"text":"好 已經可以做學商結論了"},{"start":4608.26,"end":4610.26,"text":"來 我看看"},{"start":4610.26,"end":4612.26,"text":"再看我懂嗎"},{"start":4612.27,"end":4614.27,"text":"30條之4剛剛我們"},{"start":4616.77,"end":4618.77,"text":"提參與"},{"start":4623.34,"end":4625.34,"text":"對 29 30"},{"start":4625.34,"end":4627.34,"text":"還是我唸一次給大家聽"},{"start":4627.34,"end":4629.34,"text":"對啊 可以"},{"start":4629.34,"end":4631.34,"text":"還是主席唸"},{"start":4631.34,"end":4633.34,"text":"好"},{"start":4633.34,"end":4635.34,"text":"我們就照這個順序 29 30之2 30之3"},{"start":4635.34,"end":4637.34,"text":"照這個通過"},{"start":4637.34,"end":4639.34,"text":"然後這個這個這個照這個通過"},{"start":4640.06,"end":4642.06,"text":"好"},{"start":4641.05,"end":4643.05,"text":"好"},{"start":4642.98,"end":4644.98,"text":"我們現在宣布一下"},{"start":4644.98,"end":4646.98,"text":"29條"},{"start":4646.98,"end":4648.98,"text":"30之2條"},{"start":4648.98,"end":4650.98,"text":"30之3"},{"start":4650.98,"end":4652.98,"text":"按照民眾黨修正動議通過"},{"start":4652.98,"end":4654.98,"text":"那30條"},{"start":4654.98,"end":4656.98,"text":"30之1條"},{"start":4656.98,"end":4658.98,"text":"30之4"},{"start":4658.98,"end":4660.98,"text":"30之5"},{"start":4660.98,"end":4662.98,"text":"照國防法會建議條文通過"},{"start":4666.37,"end":4668.37,"text":"有沒有"},{"start":4668.27,"end":4670.27,"text":"31條"},{"start":4673.23,"end":4675.23,"text":"好 多多的政委員"},{"start":4675.23,"end":4677.23,"text":"跳來跳去"},{"start":4677.23,"end":4679.23,"text":"31條"},{"start":4680.19,"end":4682.19,"text":"31條的話就是"},{"start":4682.19,"end":4684.19,"text":"你們的版本跟我們的修正動議辦是一樣的"},{"start":4686.33,"end":4688.33,"text":"31"},{"start":4693.06,"end":4695.06,"text":"我們有啊"},{"start":4695.06,"end":4697.06,"text":"我們交的也是啊"},{"start":4697.28,"end":4699.28,"text":"我們這是收支保管及運用辦"},{"start":4701.1,"end":4703.1,"text":"我們家的也是一樣不是嗎"},{"start":4703.09,"end":4705.09,"text":"有有有"},{"start":4705.09,"end":4707.09,"text":"修正動議有啊"},{"start":4707.81,"end":4709.81,"text":"一模一樣的字啊"},{"start":4710.19,"end":4712.19,"text":"一模一樣啊"},{"start":4712.19,"end":4714.19,"text":"所以31條就是照民眾黨修正動議通過"},{"start":4714.19,"end":4716.19,"text":"對"},{"start":4716.54,"end":4718.54,"text":"國防法會有沒有確定"},{"start":4718.54,"end":4720.54,"text":"一模一樣啊"},{"start":4720.28,"end":4722.28,"text":"你拿的版本"},{"start":4722.28,"end":4724.28,"text":"一樣啊"},{"start":4724.28,"end":4726.28,"text":"原始的法案"},{"start":4727.86,"end":4729.86,"text":"對啊 哦這個沒有了"},{"start":4730.49,"end":4732.49,"text":"我不是配合你們"},{"start":4732.49,"end":4734.49,"text":"一樣啊"},{"start":4734.36,"end":4736.36,"text":"一樣啦 就是按照我們民眾黨的"},{"start":4736.36,"end":4738.36,"text":"修正動議的版本跟國防"},{"start":4738.36,"end":4740.36,"text":"國防法會提出來的這個字"},{"start":4740.36,"end":4742.36,"text":"是一致的啊"},{"start":4742.36,"end":4744.36,"text":"跟我的修正動議是一模一樣的啦"},{"start":4745.19,"end":4747.19,"text":"所以"},{"start":4747.86,"end":4749.86,"text":"按照我的民眾黨團的修正動議那一份是一樣的"},{"start":4752.48,"end":4754.48,"text":"31條就這樣"},{"start":4754.81,"end":4758.81,"text":"31條按照民眾黨修正的動議通過"},{"start":4759.35,"end":4761.35,"text":"請不吝點贊訂閱轉發打賞支持明鏡與點點欄目"},{"start":4760.41,"end":4762.41,"text":"這樣可以哈"},{"start":4762.32,"end":4764.32,"text":"好"},{"start":4763.47,"end":4765.47,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4765.95,"end":4767.95,"text":"確定確定"},{"start":4769.1,"end":4771.1,"text":"要總整一遍"},{"start":4771.1,"end":4773.1,"text":"我們會有寫一個"},{"start":4773.1,"end":4775.1,"text":"版本分別送去"},{"start":4775.1,"end":4777.1,"text":"三個黨團簽名"},{"start":4777.1,"end":4779.1,"text":"不然你都要簽名"},{"start":4779.1,"end":4781.1,"text":"沒有沒有沒有 出稿還在黨"},{"start":4781.74,"end":4783.74,"text":"還在黨"},{"start":4783.74,"end":4785.74,"text":"好好"},{"start":4785.74,"end":4787.74,"text":"你們打他"},{"start":4787.74,"end":4789.74,"text":"那就再補簽"},{"start":4789.74,"end":4791.74,"text":"補簽"},{"start":4794.99,"end":4796.99,"text":"補簽"},{"start":4797.99,"end":4799.99,"text":"等一下"},{"start":4799.99,"end":4801.99,"text":"對"},{"start":4801.99,"end":4803.99,"text":"要先唸嘛"},{"start":4802.35,"end":4804.35,"text":"就是剛剛唸的"},{"start":4804.35,"end":4806.35,"text":"對對可以了可以了"},{"start":4806.35,"end":4808.35,"text":"我們打出來之後會再分手"},{"start":4808.35,"end":4810.35,"text":"送委員來"},{"start":4810.35,"end":4812.35,"text":"可以各黨團簽名"},{"start":4813.79,"end":4815.79,"text":"所以今天這樣OK了"},{"start":4815.79,"end":4817.79,"text":"OK了"},{"start":4817.79,"end":4819.79,"text":"那我們就散會了"},{"start":4819.79,"end":4821.79,"text":"散會謝謝大家"},{"start":4822.46,"end":4824.46,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4826.9,"end":4828.9,"text":"我要跟國防公務局說"},{"start":4828.9,"end":4830.9,"text":"11 14個人"},{"start":4830.9,"end":4832.9,"text":"11個對1個"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}